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Episode 73: Thorn Trees with Valerie OliverThu, 2/18 10:34AM ? 1:22:10SUMMARY KEYWORDSmagick, witch, witches, story, jacob, adorn, thought, people, bernadette, thorn trees, witchcraft, support, book, helens, witch hunter, day, england, point, feel, livedSPEAKERSKanani, Thorn Trees, Intro music, Valerie, Thorn Trees Clip, Courtney , Thorn Trees Project, Hilary, Bernadette, All Three, JacobIntro music 00:2920 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world following Magick and Spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a Witch in today's world.Kanani 00:49Welcome, everybody and thank you for joining us for another episode of That Witch Life Podcast. I am your host Kanani. Hilary 00:57And I'm Hilary. Courtney 00:58And I'm Courtney.Kanani 01:00And today we're going to be discussing the independently produced Thorn Trees, which focuses on the lives of witches and the Elizabethan-era. Super excited to be talking to them today. But in the meantime, what's been going on with everybody? Courtney 01:18Mercury Retrograde's ruining my life and I want it to end now. Hilary 01:21Ugh, Same!! Courtney 01:23I locked me Okay, well, I probably shouldn't complain as much as Hillary so I'll get my complaints in first while I still have the sympathy of the audience, but I got locked out of my work computer and I can't get in and it has all my violin music on it, so I can't get in and play. Hilary 01:37What? That's annoying,Courtney 01:39I know, very annoying.Hilary 01:40Yeah, I lost power for two two and a half days. And during the ice and snow storm, so that was fun. And yeah, like I've had I swear to God, every piece of electronic equipment in my life is like, like my phone keeps randomly like rebooting itself. Like my laptop wouldn't login to my work drive this morning. I just was like, What?Courtney 02:09Why? It's like why why why?? Hilary 02:11like, fuck You? fuck you Yeah. Yeah, the ice the ice storm was a spectacular showing over here.Courtney 02:20I know. Giant icicles. It looks like swords coming off my shed and roof.Hilary 02:25Yeah, it was crazy. We had in the Portland metro area. There were 4,400 downed power wires. Yeah. And I think something like 10 stations were down. I don't know. Like it was a mess. So there there are still a bunch people without power. I'm grateful that mine has come back onCourtney 02:44Yeah, giving love to our listeners in Texas if they're getting to hear this. You know, I know a lot is really out for days. My friend Megan down there. They've been without power and heat for, gosh, several days now. And it's really cold. And so, uh, thinking about you guys, that's really hard.Hilary 03:03Yeah, for sure.Courtney 03:04So I had another really weird dream. And I'm sure actually found it helpful to tell people on this podcast about the weird dreams I had because then when I'm listening to our podcast A week later and I forgot about the dream I realized it was a premonition. So last night, I dreamt about these weird kind of area nation guys that were trying to kidnap me with a paper gun. And I just looked at them and said, NowHilary 03:32you were like, put your paper gun away!Courtney 03:34Actually Ri, you're gonna love this. I was protected by them because protected from them. Because there was a white van between us.Hilary 03:44I mean, so it must have really happened. It must have somehow somehow the return of the white van is going to happen and save your life.Courtney 03:52And that was our that was a spirit white van that was chasing us. If you all remember a couple of episodes ago, Hillary and I were talking about our white van incident we were in high school we thought a white van was following us. It wasn't following us. But we was like two or three of the most terrifying moments of our life thinking we were being chased by a white van.Hilary 04:09our white van incidentCourtney 04:11Our white van incident... and I'm thinking now the white van was a spirit white van. And it comes to protect us from the scary things in our dreams, Hilary 04:22that's uhh, that's valid..that's valid.Courtney 04:27Yes,Hilary 04:28I've been mostly purge well, because everyone knows if they listened to our last episode, I bought a house or I'm about to close on a house. And so it's been I'm trying to like get in the Marie Kondo mindset because I'm like I need to let go of some things and I'm Courtney 04:48does it give me joy not to give me joy at one time not might it give me joy again at some point so I should put it in a box in case it does.Hilary 04:56But I got I got so much Taurus in my chart and that is just like collect things, things are comfort things, things, things things and they're everywhere. And I'm just like, Okay, I need to just like let go of things and manifest comfort and stability somewhere else.Courtney 05:14But this here's the truth if you've ever given something away and wished you hadn't,Hilary 05:18yes, actually. I mean, that's just becauseCourtney 05:23was it your sanity or your dignity or something likeHilary 05:25it was my dignity. Yeah, It was. I gave Kanani a bunch of jewelry so she's stoked.Kanani 05:33Which are beautiful.Courtney 05:34Are you sparkly now, Kanani?Kanani 05:36it was beautiful and she even gave a couple pieces to my daughter and my daughter was very excited. Hilary 05:41Was she excited when sheKanani 05:42was very excited? Well in some of the pieces like I told you were some of the pieces you gave her had like turquoise and that's her birthstone Oh, so that was very cool.Courtney 05:51I didn't realize turquoise was December's birthstone. How did I not know that?Kanani 05:56It's like it's like turquoise and like blue Topaz and like some other thingsCourtney 05:58Ohhh Topaz I've heard, I didn't hear I didn't hear turquoise. Mine is the Ruby. I think the Moonstone oh! Ri, your mom gave me a beautiful piece of Moonstone many many years ago. And I used to love that piece so much. And I was going to going to some concert or something. One night while I was in New York and something told me not to wear it. And I wore it anyway and guess what? It got it fell off. It fell off. Yep.Hilary 06:29I mean I have made that mistake before where I'm like, I actually have a weird thing where if I wear especially stone jewelry for too long without cleansing it it just erupts off of my neck. Especially necklaces it just shatters or breaks or you said your birthstone is Moonstone andCourtney 06:46I guess it's I don't know if it's a Moonstone I know Ruby is my July's birthstone Kanani, what's you're an October baby? What's yours again?Hilary 06:54I feel like Kanani 06:55Oh, I have no idea.Hilary 06:56I can tell you so yeah, birth. July is Ruby. And I thinkCourtney 07:01stones are totally a they're just a manufacturerism manufacturerism if that's a wordHilary 07:04October is aCourtney 07:05I just manufactured a new word. It's manufacturerism and it's manufacturerized by the jewelry industry. Just like diamonds are actually crap.Hilary 07:17October is a traditionally opal and or Tourmaline opal. May, which is mine, is EmeraldCourtney 07:26makes sense that Kanani would have the fussy stone I can't be exposed to water it's really cool put dirt on meKanani 07:34and it's shinyHilary 07:37Yeah, I have Emerald and emeralds are expensive so it's like I have one very small Emerald piece that was from my grandmother but like I don't have whenever I remember as a kid being like oh can I get you know like oh, I want to get my birthstone cuz like some of my friends Yeah, had like rubies are the same but like some of my friends you know? It's like oh, yeah, your stone is like Moonstone or a pearl like you know cool. And then I'm like, what's mine? Oh, I want to get it in. It's like oh, that's thousands of dollars, like nevermind.Courtney 08:03We're gonna go to Claire's and get you a little green colored piece of glass and tell everyone that it's an emerald.Hilary 08:08You can get actually one cool thing you can do for people that are up in this area is you can get emeralds that have been manufactured using Mount St. Helens ash.Courtney 08:18Oh nice.Hilary 08:20Right and so they'll do emeralds and stones like that so they're artificial but they're used they basically just create an environment for them to grow like that. But they you they utilize the ash at Mount St. Helens so it's nice.Courtney 08:32Well, back in the day, not so much. Not anymore. But back in the day, like years after Mount St. Helens erupted there were piles of ash up and down I5. I remember we moved to Oregon in '86 and that was like six years after Mount St. Helens blew I still remember the piles of ash. They were like half as high as the car.Hilary 08:51Oh yeah. It's crazy, I mean,Courtney 08:52It's like paperweights. I mean all kinds of stuff with it, you know, it's, it's really should be left and left to the soil because it enriches it but when you're actually trying, it's like sorry, civilization. We're trying to build things. We had to do something with this ash, let's make it into emeralds and give them to Hillary.Kanani 09:06We have I think most of my my father and all his siblings, because my grandparents lived in Washington. They all have baby jars full of it, because my grandfather just collected it from his roof. And he filled it with jars and he kind of sent it to peopleCourtney 09:25it's it's actually, I had a really fascinating was a good learning experience. But it was also like one of a moment that I feel like I had a nice bond with with the you know the land spirits so many years ago, I had a single diamond stud earring and it had my mom's been had been part of a pair she lost one. At that point. I was double pierced in one of my ears and so she asked me if I wanted it you know since I had a double piercing because she you know obviously couldn't wasn't gonna wear a single stud. Because that's not my mom's style. So she gave it to me and I wore it some and then I didn't know where it was. And my dad asked for it back because he wanted to make a brooch for my mom with some family diamonds and he asked if he could have it and I said I'm sorry dad, I honestly I don't know where it is, at this point and I got some hell for that because I irresponsible with your the single stud that your mom lost and yeah, I'm like, okay. So for a long time, I didn't know where it was. And I went and took a trip to Mount St. Helens. And this is when I was a baby pagan, not not terribly proud of this moment, but I you know, did them right by it in the end. You know, I went to mounts visit Mount St. Helens in my early 20s. And I saw the signs that said don't collect ash don't collect rocks, leave the ash, it's part of the regeneration. Well, I didn't listen because I was a witch and I knew better. So I like made an offering of my hair or some shit like that. And was like, I'm gonna take some ash, I asked them all, and then she's okay with it. And I actually was going to give it to a friend. And when I gave it to her, she just, you know, was older woman and she took me by the hand, she said, Honey, I cannot accept this, you need to send it back. This is I appreciate the thought and you didn't you know, you clearly didn't mean any harm, but that that mountain needs this ash to regenerate. And so I was like, Oh, and I felt really bad. And so I boxed it up. And I sent a note to the you know, to the the wildlife Resource Center and was like, I'm really sorry, I shouldn't have taken this and just wondering if somebody would mind you know, putting it back out on the mountain next time they get it. I actually got a letter back from the parks department at Mount St. Helens. They said thank you so much. We often get people that return rocks but very few of them actually send their name and address so we thought we'd send you a thank you note anyway. Oh my god. So thanks that really was the right thing to do if people always took the ash and rocks the mountain would look very different. And that day I found my earring whoa Really? I did it was in my jewelry box I had like looked in the jewelry box 100 times since then, but I guess it had been stuck in some corner and it just rolled out on the same day that you know I made things right with the mountain so it was important so Moral of the story y'all not a good idea to take rocks soil, things like that from you know naturally sensitive areas that are in place of regeneration especially you will see signs they say Don't do it. Don't do it. I learned my lesson. But I do feel like that was that's that that was my we talked about this the last episode you get these moments of confirmation where you got that letter from the your house seller and this time I found the earring on the day that I you know basically the that got a message from the mountain saying all is right up here. You're good. Here you go. And then somebody said to me, so carbon for carbon, right? And I went, Yeah, I guess so. Pretty cool, huh?Hilary 12:49They're probably like, this idiot sent her address. So we should probably send her a thank you. They did. They were like you literally told us who you were, and stole from us.Courtney 13:02And I returned it and it's very funny. I probably again probably never can run for public office. But that was already out.Hilary 13:09Oh my god.Kanani 13:10I think your inability to run for public office has nothing to do with stealing Mount St. Helens ash.Courtney 13:15I returned it.Hilary 13:17You're like listen,Courtney 13:19yeah, yeah.Hilary 13:20Oh my god. That's so funny.Kanani 13:22I remember I stole donuts once. (laughing) Because of course it, was donuts? Hilary 13:29Of course you did! (laughing)Kanani 13:31Yeah. And I remember I was with my ex husband and we were going on a road trip. And it's funny. What's really funny is 20 years later have the exact same routine for a road trip.Courtney 13:40Do you still do you still steal donuts?Kanani 13:42I don't usually steal the donuts. I'm usually usually but what we did was we were in it. We were in a rush. And we had to get out of town. And he went and got donuts while I was waiting in line in the Safeway at the at the Starbucks to get some coffee. And I'm waiting in line I'm waiting in line and I was like, you know we don't have fucking time for this. I can't I can't wait. We just got to go. So we leave and then we will we go and we're in the drive thru for McDonald's to get breakfast and so I can get a coffee. And as we're in the drive thru for McDonald's, you know, we're he's we're eating our donuts, and all of a sudden I looked at him. And I'm like, how's the donut taste? And he's like, good Why? And I'm like, because we fucking stole those donuts!! We forgot to pay for the donuts, because we left because we were supposed to pay for them with the Starbucks and then I decided not to get Starbucks and so this literally bothered me until we came back to town this literally like Courtney 14:46Oh, stop! did you pay them on your way home? Kanani 14:47Yes. Hilary 14:48Oh my god Kanani 14:49back as soon as we came back to town I ran up to the store to like get milk or you know, just whatever, a couple little things. And I tell the cashier I'm like oh and I need I need to pay for two doughnuts. She's like, you don't have any donuts. I'm like I know we got donuts before and I didn't get charged for it. And she was like, really? And I'm like, seriously, I'm not carrying this around with me just charge me for two fucking donuts. And so I ended up paying for the donuts because yeah, I stole donuts. That's my that's my stealing story. So we actually have a listener question that we were wanting to get to. And that was: "Hi, Courtney, Hilary and Kalani, every month, I think about emailing the three of you this listener question, I have heard that the time of the month can be a good time to do spell work. But what about beforehand? Is there such a thing as pre menstrual spells?Courtney 15:42Hmm, different kind of PMS?Kanani 15:45The challenge I'm having is that I'm always too tired or in a very bad headspace to do workings when I'm having a period. Do you have suggestions on rituals that could be done beforehand, to proactively support and fortify myself energetically, physically and emotionally for this time of the month? I keep thinking there's got to be a way magically to look at this and reduce the sense of depletion. Thanks for your consideration".Courtney 16:10My first instinct is, I wouldn't treat the depletion as a problem. But well, it may, there may be something that's going on either hormonally or there could be a food or substance thing that's causing that can cause you to feel that way over your you know, while you're on your period, it's always good to talk to your doctor or something about that. But I would also what, what I'm taking from this is that this isn't a problem to solve. I think that this is your body in your magickal way of telling you that you need more restoration during this time period. I don't know what the rest of your life is, like, if you're someone who lends a lot of energetic support to others, if you're in a line of work, that requires you to expend a lot of energy on other people specifically, or if you're, you know, if you're doing a lot of tarot readings and stuff like that, I don't know what what's going on. But to me, it feels like this, it's, it's less about a spell that needs to change that and more about treating a time when you're on your period, as a time in which you're restoring balance, and you're doing more work to focus on restoring balance in yourself. That can be done through cleansings, you can be doing that through through chakra work, which you can do while you're laying on your bed or laying on your couch, and envisioning that any of the energy that's been taken from you like one thing that I do sometimes when I'm feeling super depleted is if I can get myself into a place where I'm laying down and I can see each of where my chakras are. And imagine that I'm pulling energy back in, or looking for places where the energy might have been getting, you know, too much energy and going to others and pull that back. I mean, as someone who reads Tarot, professionally, in addition to doing this crazy ass podcast, it's a lot of energy to put out there. And there's times in which you're gonna have to deliberately pull it back.Kanani 18:07Well, I also think it's a fallacy to say that, you know, that that's a really great time to be doing your spell work.Courtney 18:15Right? Kanani 18:15I think that might be true for some people, because for some people, there's something about that time that kind of makes them feel more connected, kind of makes them feel more feminine, makes them feel more powerful. There's other people where their menstrual cycles are just god awful, horrible. Yeah. And they can't, they can't get off the floor. So it's like, you know, that might not be the time when you feel powerful when you feel connected. And and that's okay. I think that's why for some people they feel it's powerful is because that's when they feel kind of grounded and, and interconnected with things. But you may not feel that way. Like for me, I don't I the birth control I have I don't actually have monthly cycles, I've actually never in my life had regular monthly cycles. But I've I have realized through that and tracking things, actually, with my hormones, when they get to those points, they trigger migraines. So it's horrible. I mean, I don't have cramps, and I don't have all that kind of stuff, but I get I get two, three days worth of migraine. So it's awful. So you know, that's not the best time for me to be doing my magical work. So I think you know, I certainly wouldn't worry about feeling like you're missing out on a good time, right kind of tuning in. Because that just might not be your thing. Hilary 19:44Though I don't bleed, I still like my hormon. I'll still get like PMS essentially. I just won't bleed and I find that protection magick around that time is really valuable because I find when my hormones are like that my body is going through that process, that I am energetically more susceptible to other people's garbage. So the two things that I really like doing is a protective magick around, you know, kind of building like a force field around yourself, so to speak to like, kind of keep other people's yucky energy away. And then I really love bath magic for getting rid of energy that's stuck to you and the way that I do it, I always use salt, sometimes I'll use an essential oil, if it's something obviously be really careful with essential oils, they're strong, you don't need that much, make sure that you're not allergic to them, I often will use some essential oil that is related to whatever I'm trying to do, or I will put a stone, a stone or a couple of stones in the bath with me. And then what I do is at the end of the bath, I stand up and I watch everything go down the drain. So I watch like all that shit that has come off of me in that bath water, all everybody else's stuff. I'm like "Bye, bye"! you know, and I just watch it, watch it go down the drain.Kanani 21:02And I think you know, the other thing that we've discussed, you know, the most important part of magic is your intent. It's your focus, it's your concentration. And yes, there can be kind of good times to do it around a full moon around a new moon, you know, around a seasonal holiday, you know, whatever there can be times where it's like, Hey, you could get maybe a little boost, or it could be kind of helpful to do around there. But I would never tell someone, Oh, you missed the full moon by two days, well don't do it. You know, Hilary 21:31it's too late, you've missed the full moon; too bad there will never be another one!Kanani 21:36Your spell is you know, Hilary 21:37It's like, you're fucked!Courtney 21:38I'm looking at it right now. It's so fun.Kanani 21:38it's powerful, because you're powerful. So you know, try and not put kind of try not worry too much about these little stigmas of this is the right time to do it. And this is when you do it exactly. And if you don't do it exactly at this time, then it's just not going to be as you know, potent because it's just not true. Just a reminder, we still have on Instagram our giveaway, where you can show us what you've done with your That Witch Life sticker and take a picture of wherever you've put the sticker, we've seen some awesome things we've seen it on We've we've seen it on all kinds of things. And just make sure what you tag us in the image. And you hashtag #thatwitchlove and we are going to have we have a giveaway where we are giving away two books. One is the book The Wicked Baker, we also have the journal Embody Your Magick, a Love Spell kit, and your very own screaming goat. So definitely show us your your That Witch Life Podcast stickers where you've put them, tag us on Instagram hashtag #thatwitchlove and at the end of February on February 28, we're going to take all the entries and randomly select a winner and they're going to get some goodies to take homeCourtney 22:54It is hashtag this the the tag is @thatwitchlifepodcast and the hashtag is #thatwitchloveKanani 23:03we actually have some new spell kits that are going to be popping up at our Etsy store they should be available. I believe when this when this episode airs. And that is going to be we have a new luck spell kit that you can get to help bring some luck in your life in case you are trying to get a new job or maybe change your situation in some way and you feel like a little I feel like a little luck could be helpful. And we also have a spell kit for the holiday coming up for spring equinox. So you definitely want to check that out. That's going to be kind of a fun day to do some magic and we have a spell Equinox kit. That's also going to be on Etsy, so definitely check that out. We also have reworked our Patreon levels, which is very, very cool. And in addition to bonus content and live virtual events, we now offer early release episodes, extended ad-free episodes, and a Quarterly box of magickal goodness. We want to thank everyone who is a part of our Patreon and all of our supporters. Last week we released our conversation with Helena Garcia about filming What We Do in The Shadows. And for as little as $1 a month you can get access to this and other witchism content. If you join at the Kanani boyfriend/girlfriend/NBfriend level, you get the extended ad free episodes and Courtney pulls a tarot card for you on air. This week, she's pulling a card for Tiffany.Courtney 24:35Okay, so Tiffany, you got the Empress of the Empress is a card and we've actually had this one not too long ago but you know, it's always good to bring it back out again. So the tip of the Empress is a card of feminine power. It is about creation. It can be about motherhood, or nurturing someone so there may be someone in your life who needs a little more care who needs you to be that that mothering influence which is sometimes about laying down restrictions and boundaries, as much as it is about nurturing care that person may also be yourself you may need that nurture and care and you may be need to be the one to provide it for yourself. It's also the one that says, you know, we enjoy the riches and resources that surround you. Find some create some luxury for yourself, even if it means just simply getting under the blankets and with a heating pad or watching a movie with a piece of dark chocolate. You are hereby told by the Tarot to enjoy that kind of energy. So thanks again so much Tiffany for being a Kanani girlfriend/boyfriend or NBfriend woo woo!Kanani 25:40and other great ways to support the show, if you can't do a monthly donation, you can buy us a Ko-fi or buy That Witch Life merchandise on Etsy. You can also consider becoming an episode sponsor. It's a great way to promote your business to 1000s of witches. You can also purchase a shout out and let people know about your virtual event or just to send love to your favorite witch. Find out more on our website at and I think we're ready for a word from our sponsors.Courtney 26:08Yes indeed.Kanani 26:09If you've listened to us at all, you know that all three of us are completely obsessed with Shiny Pretty Things, especially me.Courtney 26:16 Shiny Pretty Things include tattoos and piercings as well as jewelry.Hilary 26:212020 was a total drag so 2021 is the perfect time to be the best sparkliest version of yourself with some custom tattoo work, killer jewelry, or a new piercing.Kanani 26:31Adorn Body Art has unique jewelry designs from vendors all over the world. So we were super excited to partner with Adorn as an episode sponsor!Hilary 26:39Established in 2000, Adorn is a woman-owned Tattoo-Piercing jewelry studio dedicated to offering the best service to their clients and local community with three thriving locations in Southeast Portland, Beaverton, and Vancouver, Washington.Courtney 26:53Adorn selection is not only the largest in the Pacific Northwest, but they also carry the highest quality of ornate, ethically sourced natural adornments which is a big deal for me. From Amethyst to Rutilated Quartz, to Tiger's Eye and Citrine. They have jewelry options with stones for every chakra and you can order online.Kanani 27:12The thing that separates Adorn from other studios is that they are focused on art and not attitude. Their mission is to help their clients feel like the truest version of themselves and achieve body autonomy.Hilary 27:23If you're looking to get pierced Adorn can also assist with custom creating the piece of jewelry of your dreams to be as unique as you so the possibilities are endless with ongoing education for each piercer who is also certified through the Association of Professional piercers and state of the art sterilization and sanitation you are always safe and get the very best when you come to Adorn.Courtney 27:43 Adorn operates by appointment only, so go to where you can also see a sneak peek of the gorgeous jewelry that they carry.Hilary 27:52Adorn and is just amazing, so make sure you check out their incredible jewelry selection or book an appointment today. Thank you to Adorn Body Art for being an episode sponsor. In November we had the amazing Dawn Hunt of Cucina Aurora on the show to talk all about food magick, and since then, we've all been obsessed with Cucina Aurora and their line of magical and delicious products.Courtney 28:14Seriously, I dressed my holiday dinner with a savory sage oil charged for wisdom and knowledge and I bought my food-loving In-laws Cucina Aurora gift sets, which include infused olive oils, a garlic infused olive oil for protection, and a Rosemary oregano infused olive oil charged for peaceful energy. I was delighted when Kanani bought me the same set for my Yule present.Kanani 28:38Now that I've done buying for other people, I am all about getting a bunch of this for myself because I am so excited! Cucina Aurora's oils are all made by hand and they do visualization and meditation over all of them as they're made. So they are infused with not just the flavors but also the energies of the herbs and spices. Hilary 28:58And what's super awesome is that Dawn now has a new cookbook available: "A Kitchen Witch’s Guide to Recipes for Love & Romance". There are just so many good recipes in this book that are both delicious and will also help you focus in on the areas of love you'd like to enhance.Courtney 29:12I am someone who cooks a lot so it's a great tool for me to plan meals that complement the magical work I'm doing. For example, She has a kale chickpea and quinoa salad designed for both health and opening the heart chakra. But this is a great book for witches who don't cook too. You can use it to think about which foods you might want to eat that will support your magickal work as she lists the magickal properties in many common foods.Hilary 29:36 Whether you're interested in "A Kitchen Witch’s Guide to Recipes for Love & Romance" or any of the other amazing oils or magickal foods products that Cucina Aurora offers. They have a special rate for our listeners, go to and enter "witchlife2021" at checkout to get 10% off. The offer is good all year. Thank you so much to Cucina Aurora for being an episode sponsor.Courtney 30:01Witches love movies and they love seeing themselves reflected in them for better or worse. So this is super exciting. I am delighted to share that my dear friend and colleague Heather Greene has released a new book through Llewelyn books, entitled Lights, Camera, Witchcraft: A Critical History of Witches in American Film and Television. Heather is a wonderful writer with a powerful understanding of modern and historical witchcraft. No industry has been as influential at shaping popular notion of what it means to be a witch as much as Hollywood. Lights, Camera, Witchcraft traces the fascinating history of witchcraft in witches in American film and television, from Joan the woman and the Wizard of Oz. To Carrie and Charmed, Heather Greene explores how these films helped influence the public image of the witch and profoundly influence how women negotiate their power in a patriarchal society. Lights, Camera Witchcraft uncovers fascinating insights into the intersection of entertainment, critical theory, gender studies and spirituality. As the world's oldest and largest independent publisher of books for mind, body and spirit, Llewellyn is dedicated to bringing their readers the very best in metaphysical books and resources through titles such as Lights, Camera, Witchcraft. Since 1901, Llewellyn has been on the forefront of holistic and metaphysical publishing and thought! You can pre-order a copy of Heather Greene's Lights, Camera, Witchcraft at , on Amazon, or wherever else books are sold. Thank you to Llewellyn for being an episode sponsor.Kanani 31:42Alright, we are super excited to have joining us three members of the production team of Thorn Trees, an independently produced series about a grieving witch who recruits a repentant witch-hunter in Elizabethan England to help save her family from a corrupt Bishop intent on murder. The tetam decided to indie produce themselves after pitching and discovering that the entertainment industry is attached to a tradition of witch-based stories being either horror or fantasy, that perpetuates stereotypes that are disrespectful and maintain prejudice–that very often includes metaphysical practitioners and other lightworkers as recipients. They were committed to not going down that path. One of their producers is a Wiccan High Priestess & pipe carrier. Another is a healing artist, pipe carrier, and is a Christian ordained minister. The team practices many faiths and walks different spiritual paths –respectful of each other, committed to telling a realistic story about a Pagan family led by a strong, female protagonist. With us from the Thorn Trees team is Creator and producer Valerie Mich’El Oliver, producer Bernadette Montana, and creator, screenwriter, and producer Jacob Larch.Thank you so much for joining us.Thorn Trees 33:03Hello. Hey, thank you for having us. Absolutely.Courtney 33:08It's a party, right? It's a party and my, my dear friend Bernadette is here. So excited. Yeah. Now it's storytime cuz every time we have a guest come on that I've met before, there's usually some kind of very wild story attached. So 10,000 years ago, I was going up to Bernadette and I were coordinating to bring over Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone to the states and we'd never met before but there was a lot of email communication and actually, Bernadette, you'll never never, I never told you this. But you were looking at one of my emails, you responded and you said, you know, you're really good at organizing. And up until then I've been a real subpar administrative assistant. I've been just like, barely holding on to my job by a thread. And then I was like, yeah, you know what, I think I finally got the hang of it, cuz somebody from the outside is telling me I'm good. And then I met Bernadette two days later and I promptly bit her on the top of the head and that's how we became friends.Thorn Trees 34:15How in the world did that happen? Come on.Courtney 34:16I gave her a hug and I just bit her on top of the head and there's a picture to prove it.Bernadette 34:26Yes, there is! I was just about to say somewhere in my archives. I have a picture of that. So just the look on on Courtney's face and me just laughing my ass off. That's all that needs to be said. Yeah,Hilary 34:39I love it!Courtney 34:40we've been we've been very...we've been super close ever since. Bernadette 34:43Yes! For a kajillion years now.Valerie 34:48Well, that's an unusual but beautiful story. Thanks for sharing that. Now I have this image in my head, you know of that and her head being bitten by youBernadette 35:00I will find it, Val and send it off to you.Kanani 35:02Of all the weird things that I know that Courtney's done that I'm not even sure that makes a radar sadly that'sHilary 35:11probably probably true actually. Yeah, that's it is a high barCourtney 35:16Kanani's over there checking her cuticles like when is the real story gonna begin Bernadette?Kanani 35:22I always I always I always say that there's there's not really anything that someone could tell me that Courtney's done that I'm gonna be, you know, shocked or say well that wouldn't happen. It's like Well, most likely Yes. I'm sure that happened. Bernadette 35:34Courtney, what does that say about you?Courtney 35:37Lots of things Bernadette lots of things..Hilary 35:40More things than she is willing to admit.Courtney 35:45I said when I was younger, I want to be someone who has stories and I have stories so many stories...Bernadette 35:49Oh, theres stories. We can't begin..Hilary, Hilary knows this tooHilary 35:55Yeah, it's true.Valerie 35:57Now thinking I'm thinking, it's funny because we recently did a podcast on the portrayal of witches and entertainment and Thorn trees. And we went and we looked historically at the portrayal of witches and when you were telling that story, this is so weird, but the first thought that came to my mind was this. Oh, you know, what's the story about the Wicked Witch and she gives the the girl an apple and she you know, wants her to she bites the apple and she falls... is that Sleeping Beauty where she bites the apple I was thinking of Courtney 36:25that's Snow White nuh uh Sleeping Beauty was the spinning wheel. So with the spinning wheel Snow White was the apple.Valerie 36:34That's right. That was the apple. so I'm sorry to say Bern, I had this image of your head as an apple. (laughing) That wicked apple and the witch.Courtney 36:48We just had Helena Garcia from the Great British Baking Show on last week. And she has a new book coming out that has like that the cover is the "poison apple" I mean, obviously it's not really poison, but she developed an entire recipe around a cake that looks like the poisoned apple from sleeping beauty. And honestly, if some wish gave that to me and said here, I'd be like, I don't care what's in it. I'm going in. I'm gonna go at it like it's Bernadette's head, and I just met her.Bernadette 37:18That's right! Oh, the stories?Kanani 37:27That is so funny. Well, speaking of, one of the first questions I was kind of excited to ask was, how did you come up with the premise of this story? I'm always fascinated when when these stories are created kind of what was the what was the inspiration or the catalyst behind this particular kind of storyline?Valerie 37:46Okay, well, I'm actually the storyline that really evolves. When I got together with Jacob. And I reached out to Jacob, I was looking for someone to work with me on this project, through stage 32, which is a huge sort of international site where people who are in the entertainment industry get together and, you know, communicate and so forth. But there were two reasons behind it. And actually, there's three reasons I'm going to try and make them short. One was, I was working on another project with a group of two writers, and a couple. And they were working on a script that was sort of Sabrina-ish. It was about a teenage girl who's in college and in the US, and then she discovers that she she's a witch, and then she's connected to Salem, and so forth. And at the same time, I was watching a new TV series called Who Do You Think You Are? produced by Lisa Kudrow? You know who was on FRIENDS? She was producing that. Hilary 38:52Yes, yeah, yeah, she's awesome!Courtney 38:55She was my patron saint until I discovered Tori Amos. Yeah, for sure.Valerie 38:59Yeah. So she decided that she wanted to produce and she was producing this great show that sort of up. Who do you think you are? It's one of those ancestry shows and her first guests was Sarah Jessica Parker. And in it Sarah Jessica Parker discovers that her ancestor Esther Ellwel was convicted of witchcraft in the Salem area, and she's totally freaked out had no idea I can't remember if this was her mother or father side right now but the episode was trying to find out if Esther was indeed murdered. And she finds out that the day before she was to be hung or burned I can't remember which right now. England sent over someone who said Okay, stop. We're not doing any more of this over here. And she was like just overjoyed and found out that Esther I think died of natural causes. So I was watching that program. It was very touching and at the same time I was able, I was producing for the writers and I was able to get the script to Sarah Jessica Parker through her agent. And she passed on the script. And when she passed on the script, I thought to myself, well, there's nothing really new or different about this script. It's sort of the same old story about like the teenager, right, who's in college, and discovers that she's a witch. And that takes her back to Salem, and it doesn't really share anything new about the history or anything. And I thought, well, what happened before that? What about doing a prequel? what led up actually, to the Salem Witch Trials didn't actually start in Salem, it started over in, in Europe, in England, and people came over, you know, to the colonies here in the United States, which it wasn't at that time. And, you know, then things happen from there. So And the third thing was that I'm a healing artist, I have, I guess, what people might call, you know, magickal gifts and experiences and things like that. And people in certain people in my family were very, like, uncomfortable around me. feeling that I was doing I don't know things like Voodoo and, and they were just very uncomfortable being around me. And also people around me, family and friends, I kept hearing them use the word, witch can I curse on here? I don't know, to equate it with the B word.Kanani 41:39Oh, you can curse on here!Hilary 41:41we fucking curse all the time.Valerie 41:45BITCH! You know, which was equated with bitch, and I kept hearing it. And I kept saying that's wrong, and I just got sick of it. So those three things kind of came together. And I thought, you know, we're all raised, those of us who aren't as conscious as perhaps we need to be, and sensitive as we need to be about other cultures and religious or spiritual practices, you know, continue to, we move we we were raised with these negative images of witches, and they were either bad or good. And they were always more bad. It was always horror and fighting Satan, or they were with Satan, you know. So that's how the idea came for us. And I reached out to Jacob, and I'll be quiet right now and see if you have any other questions. Or Jacob, if you want to add anything to that, please do.Jacob 42:44Yeah, well, Val reached out to me with a single line premise. Now, one of my, my one aspect to have as a writer, is I'm quite avid in reading history of various eras and when I am doing a project, I come across a project that I interpret with both feet and do an awful lot of reading. And Val came to me with a concept, a single line that said, a witch investigating the murder of other witches hires a policeman to help her. So I looked at it. Well, firstly, the police weren't around then. The police in England came into force about 200 years later. They were militia men, there were watchmen, there were night watchmen, but there were no actual police when the closest thing and I said this is going to be quite interesting. The closest thing to a policeman or an investigator is a witch hunter. So the story becomes quite dynamic when you suddenly say a witch recruits, a witch hunter, but what witch hunter would willingly work with a witch to solve the murder of her kind, and I, I phrased it to Val like this because she, she pretty much gave me carte blanche to create the whole story, the entire cast, and I'm very, very grateful to her for that. And the world. So other stuff, my usual and inherent ramblings, I came to the point of saying that a witch hunter would need a reason. In other words, they wouldn't they would have to be probably disavowed, or retired, or left, or repentant, or in some way, ashamed of what they've done. And the more I dived into the writings and the history, the more I came across stories and reports and incidents of what today we call PTSD, what today we deal with in terms of post traumatic stress disorder with soldiers or policemen or people who've lived a life where they are empowered by the state to use violence against a civilian population. And there are many people who justify their actions, but there are also a fair percentage who have nightmares and who don't, and turn against it. They found out in a while ago in Great Britain, one of the if you took a demographic of all the people who entered the priesthood, one of the highest demographics of former professionals was people from the military who'd seen frontline service. So it took this premise and run with the idea of Firstly, the investigator, the Witch Hunter. I then went with the question of, okay. If you murder someone, if you pull a knife and stab it into somebody, who do you blame? The knife? Or the hand that holds it? And you blame the hand, don't you? So what if these murders are instituted, or rather instigated is a better word; what if they're instigated by a mob? What if the mob is set to purpose by a higher power? Who do you blame? The mob of terrified frightened, xenophobic, prejudiced villages you can do? Or do you want to blame the voice that sits behind them the person who pointed them in a direction, the person who wound them up the person who used hate speech, the person who used fake news, the person who manipulated truth and facts, this is amusingly, especially in America, a very topical conversation point at the moment of a recent event.Kanani 46:09I absolutely was like, well, this is sounding familiar.Hilary 46:13You're like....Funny, spot onJacob 46:15The lead character, the lead protagonist, Rachel spots that even though witches are being killed by their communities, it's not necessarily their communities that are at fault. It's the voice behind them. It's the power behind them. It's what links them, why are they being simultaneously killed? Because when I started, when I started reading, the first thing I found and there are Christians out there who might disagree with this, but I'm sorry, this is actually the the historical research I've come across. If you were to step back in time into the 1600s, or the 1500s, the length and breadth of England, there was a witch in every village, and they were quite open. They were quite common in Wales, they weren't even called the word witch, the word didn't exist. They thought when English started the witch trials and the Scottish and the King James II started the witch trials, that they're all a little bit mad because what do you mean you're persecuting people who deliver babies and cure people and work with natural medicines they're part of the community you know, you stupid, or what?! it's almost like cutting off one leg, so and in England, bear in mind, Henry VIII split from the church because of reasons of wanting a stone and not wanting to pay ties to the church. Good gold all goes into his pocket. England had gone from devoutly Catholic, with Henry VIII being named a defender of the faith to Protestant to his daughter Mary being Catholic again, if you're Protestant, you're not dead. If you're Catholic, you go to she gets replaced by Elizabeth. By the time we come to the story in 1590, England doesn't know what to believe it's gone through 50 years of religious hell, like a pendulum of belief. So people will believe whatever they believe that isn't going to get them killed. If I've got to kneel down and genuflect in a church, I'm going to kneel and genuflect in the church. If I'm going to sing songs in English rather than Latin, I'll sing them in English. Oh, next week, Latin, okay, I'll switch to Latin. People didn't care. They just wanted to survive and witches, were no different people who practiced the craft, they went into church, it was illegal to not go to church. So you then come back to the story. And you have this situation where here's a family or two families, one by two sisters, two witches, two very powerful practicing witches. And they go to church and their children go to church, and they practice their own craft, and people turn to them for tarot readings, and healing and fortunetelling and see a ship and all the other craft items that they have. And they are part of the community and suddenly, that community is aroused, and riled to anger to rise against them. And our protagonist, Rachel suddenly realizes what on earth is going on. And it's at this point, she has in her hands, a witch hunter, or rather, a former Witch Hunter, he is sick of killing. He's been in something called the Tria witch trials over in Germany, he wants to run, he wants to go to the colonies wants to go to the Americas. He wants to start again. And Americas is almost nothing other than Jamestown at this point. It's minute, it's tiny. He just wants to get away from the life he's led and he comes across Rachel and finds himself owing his life to her. And she says well, you can pay me back. Because I need help with your services. And the story grows from there.Kanani 49:19I think that's amazing. I think one of the things I actually Jacob I heard in an interview you gave that you said that I thought I guess I never thought a whole lot about but it kinda just it was very eye opening was you made a comment about that there's all kinds of stories and movies and books and shows about the Elizabethan time period. But most of the time, it's set in terms of the nobles and the royalty and the very, very rich and you know, we get to see the, the the grand places that they lived and the fancy outfits and and all of the extraordinary..you know, luxury that they had. There isn't really a whole lot that really depicts what normal people's lives were like just your normal everyday people that lived in the town lived in the village. And and the struggles that they faced.Jacob 50:18You have I discovered a quite a wealth of information in terms of the delicate balance people had to have because the bear in mind, most people didn't move more than 15 10, 15 miles away from their front door. And if you traveled it was because you were a traveling person, you were a merchant, or a gypsy or a player. At one point traveling players were looked down on as being somehow unclean or uncivilized, or they carry disease they were the first people that someone blamed. The majority of the population would be born, grow up, live, and die within the same 10, 15, 20 square miles. So when you consider that and the influence that comes into a village, suddenly you're you're we're trying to portray story and the audience is asked to buy into a story where the where but you say, yeah, we're going away from the perfumed nobles, the colors and the dueling swords and the trappings of state and ceremony. We're looking at how people actually lived. And you'd be surprised at how relatable it is to people today. The village was self-sustaining; they traded with local villagers who are also self-sustaining, you followed your parents into a trade or you apprenticed yourself to someone else for a trade you, you had a variety of means at your disposal. So this created a fascinating opportunity to tell the story from a very feminine point of view. Of course, women in England didn't didn't conceive the vote until 1918, just after the the end of the First World War. So this is 300 years earlier, just over 320 years earlier. So we're dealing with a period where women are not only women, but also the peasantry, also the common people they have to be had, how do you phrase it, that you have to be both indispensable and invisible. You have to be able to live your life in a way that makes you part of a community and useful to everybody around you. But not so much that you'd be noticed. The people in power the people who ride around with the weapons and the local militias, who will call to arms and the people who, if they want to do the persecution can very much do that persecution are somehow they're able to go about their job and not notice that you're there. You're just weaving the baskets, fishing in the sea, plowin' the fields, tending the horses, you're doing your job, yada-yada..day in, day out, you're going to church, nobody minds. But deep down. Does that mean you don't have a life? No, you have your own life, your own personality you have your own loves your own desires, they are no different to people today. It's a very simple way of life in a sense. And these people had no concept of what existed beyond their village. There's a phrase in the pilot episode where one of the characters is going to a fair and she says, "We'll get sailors, we'll get stories, we'll get songs. In other words, this is almost like reading the newspaper. Not that they had newspapers. Not that they could read the Gutenberg printing press was very basic in its infancy at this point in time. So people relied upon in this lifestyle, word of mouth. They, as a result, superstition, lies, mistruths, rumors, all these things were taken as true. All these things are taken as real. And it's a battle for people to work out what is true and what is not. And what is. upon what information do they base their reality and, and they base their truth. Which brings us around to the lead character, Rachel, the lead the protagonist, how do you be a woman in a world where men make the rules? And yet that world has just been upset because England has a queen, the first Queen, who doesn't want to take her husband doesn't see the need to take a husband, and is quite happy. Thank you very much being a figure of power and authority and balancing all that you have to balance. I wouldn't want to be Queen Elizabeth, honestly, she's my favorite Royal in the world and I absolutely admire the woman. She's amazing how she did what she did. I have no idea. But it sends a message out to all women if she can do it. Maybe we can. And it sends a message out to all men don't be so secure in your position.Valerie 54:26Ahh, yeah, thank you. Thank you, Jacob. I just wanted to jump in here for a second and I forgot one. One very important reason why I decided to go forward and reach out to Jacob and that was because also I consulted with Bernadette because I wasn't feeling very, very secure that this kind of story would be supported by witches, by Wiccans, by Pagans. And so I began talking with her very early, early in the process and asking her did she think that this was an important story to tell, and also began talkin' to her about magick and how I was very, like the way that magick is portrayed often in a lot of the films and TV series that I'd seen growing up. I didn't find it to be realistic in terms of the witches in their life and their families. And you know, how they live it on a daily basis. And you know, how magick is a part of their life. So I reached out to her and started talking to her about it and Bern said; what did you say Bern?Bernadette 55:41Okay, so if we're going to go back because Val and I have known each other for many years. But I will say that an example would be something that my elder taught me or my elders taught me. And I know that Courtney and Hilary can back me up on this where Gavin Bone literally said, close your eyes and put your hands out. So when you say what is magick? Your eyes are closed, your hands are out, and he put something in my hands. So then he says, open up your eyes, and it's a plant. And he says, that's magick. So basically, life is magick. The intent that you put out there is magick. I'm paraphrasing Val, because it's been so long since we've had that initial conversation, but magick is the ability to change your environment and to change things around you. I'm totally simplifying it, but it's certainly not all the CGI stuff that we see, you know, in movies today.Kanani 56:45It would be nice though. I mean, let's be real. I would love to be able to light candles with my fingertips, but unfortunately,Hilary 56:53sadly, that's not the case.Courtney 56:55Well, I just want to talk about Bernadette's bravery and trust because I don't have that kind of trust with Gavin Bone. Because if I put my hands out and close my eyes, he put a spider in my hands or or a mouse... Hilary 57:11Yeah, yeah, even, oh, I could deal with a mouse. But if someone set a spider in my hands, and I opened my eyes, I'd just die of a heart attack immediately. Like it would be over and I like and I feel bad too, because I'd probably like drop the spider. I don't know. Like it would be bad. I don't like killing them. But I'm also terrified of them, so I'm just like, NOOOOCourtney 57:29I could just see the conversation with me and Gavin. "Oh, close your eyes and hold out your hands" not closing my eyes. You can pick one or the other! I'll hold up my hands but my eyes stay open or I close my eyes and I don't hold out my hands. Gavin I'm sorry if I'm missing a big a big mystery here, but I'm not doing it.Hilary 57:46You're like, I'm gonna need you to sign here saying that that's not going to be a spider.Courtney 57:52he would he would he would find some tricky way of being like, I didn't put my final initial in it. So I didn't really sign it. SoHilary 57:59Oh my God, that's true thoughBernadette 58:01He's a bit mischevious.Courtney 58:02A bit!Jacob 58:03Hey, Bernie can I ask you something you said you've known about it for years.Bernadette 58:07Yes.Jacob 58:08Did it start with a bite on the head.(laughing)Bernadette 58:19That's good! It literally kind of started with coming with me, but we both are pipe carriers. Yeah. Because I have you know, I am Taino you know, so I work with an all nations tribe and, and so we had that in common at the very first at the very beginning. So it was pretty cool!Valerie 58:38 yeah, beautiful. Yeah, and it was really cool. Because just like in the series, I didn't realize because I'm, I definitely consider myself a Christian or started out that way. I just learned that there like everything connects and it was okay to be Christian it was okay to be a Native American Pipe Carrier and it was okay to have a very strong attraction to Earth based religians, you know, Pagans and, and so she just really helped me to like be okay with it all. And, and then also the conversations about magick. And you know, how I was experiencing magick in my life and then also talking to Jacob about magick and him getting it like, really quickly, you know, how we were going to approach magick and Thorn trees. And it's interesting, because when I was first talking to Jacob about this, creating the series, and like he said, just gave him carte blanche to create it after having some discussions about different elements that I wanted to see in it. One of the things that I was aware of was that well, you know, how how did witches... how were witches of service to their community and to their country? And Jacob just sort of ran with it with this just wonderful idea about how the witches were helpful and useful to the crown. But yet it comes back to bite them as we say in the butt for giving their trust or on the head!Jacob 1:00:34that's going to be a thing now that's going the head bits is now going into Thorn Tree it's now gonna go into somebody's backstory it's gonna happenCourtney 1:00:46I have an acting background! One little cameo of the crazy witch who comes in and bites the head and then immediately she goes to the galleyKanani 1:00:53That'll never happen, this isn't realistic. Why are we doing this?Valerie 1:00:59Yeah. You're an actress. You know, one of the things that I wanted to sort of get in here before before we end today is that I'm thinking about having a table reading of the script, if Bern and Jacob are on board with that, because we we have not heard the script yet. And I'm just really looking forward to just hearing it because I was told that when you you hear the script being read, it really brings it to life, you get to see what's really, you know, wonderful about it, what's right on point, and what might not be, you know, particularly just right yet, so I'm throwing that out to you let us know, you know if you'd like to participate in that.Hilary 1:01:42Yes, please. Yes, yes, please. We are in!Courtney 1:01:45All of us yeah, although Kanani acts, she actually hasn't acted since the seventh grade.Kanani 1:01:48Well, I haven't acted since Rocky Horror Picture Show that's when I have time I played my first time I play the first night. It was funny. I had never done anything like that before. And I actually played Rocky. And he loved me so much that they asked me the next night to come in and play Dr. Frankenfurter. And so I ended up playing Dr. Frankenfurter which was ridiculous, let me just say!Courtney 1:02:20yeah, in seventh grade, she played Kate in Taming of the Shrew. And then she add libbed like at the end like she went through the Shakespeare at the end. She just went like, You know why? My sister Bianca is a fucking bitch or whatever we were able to say I don't swear but whatever, whatever seventh graders used to just swear, but she did she justHilary 1:02:39jerk or something like thatCourtney 1:02:41all of a sudden turned it around, she goes... I don't know why everyone's calling me a shrew. Has anybody seen the way she's behaving recently? And like went off the rails?Hilary 1:02:48Oh, my God. Yeah, we're totally in. I mean, I would I would totally be in to do that.Valerie 1:02:56SuperBernadette 1:02:58Fantastic! Hilary 1:02:59and I've acted in the last decade in the last two years, since basically 2020.Kanani 1:03:07You know, we all know that witches and magick and these kinds of, you know, fun, fanciful storylines. They sell. People love it. All people love it. And so I, I want to thank you for actually caring about how actual people in the magickal community and Pagan community and people who call themselves witches care about the depiction. Because that's not something that is often ever cared about. You know, it's just kind of we know this sells, we know, it's fun, so we're just gonna go with it. And and it's not necessarily ever something that is, you know, tried to make true to life. So the fact that you cared about that, I think is is that's really fantastic.Valerie 1:04:01Yeah, I just wanted to say, Yeah, you're welcome. It's It's funny, because when we were having our zoom discussion about the portrayal of witches and entertainment, we have the media witch, who joined us that day as co host and Bern was the host. And people, by the way, can catch that on our YouTube channel for the pursuit studio. But one of the reasons also, you know, we're in a world now, where we're trying to include as much include as much diversity as possible in storytelling to be inclusive in terms of stories that may not have been told. And it's not that I am against fantasy and horror at all because it's, as you said, you know, people want to put their fingers together and create fire who doesn't, you know, and and all kinds of cool stuff like that. But there's such a preponderance of horror and such a preponderance of fantasy over and over and over and over again. And, you know, as I wrote on the in the email to you guys, in terms of the content to share I had a very difficult time pitching to executives because they would say what there's a way you go, but this is about fantasy writer. This isn't fantasy or, and I talked to Jacob about it, I just got so discouraged. Because the mindset was witches-horror, witches -fantasy. And that's not very diverse. You know, there's, there's many more stories that can be told that can fit into other genre like ours is historical period drama. I often I thought also about faith based because, you know, religion, spirituality, for some reason, when people create faith based stories. They tend to mean, Christian only. And I don't think that's right, either. And I talked to someone who's a producer about it. And I said, there's a story that I would like to pitch is faith based. And she said, mmm, well, faith-based just confirmed it pretty much means Christian stories right now. So I said, Oh, well, we can't pitch it that way, either, you know, to studios, or networks, or, you know, that kind of thing. And it was very disheartening. So I couldn't see any other way to go. Except to self produce ourselves, with support from the variety of individuals and community who call themselves witches, or Wiccans, or pagans, so that we could be true to telling the story. Because the other thing is that if we were to sell the script, and turn it over to, you know, a production company, Jacob and I would probably have no say, and making certain that the story would be told, as we wrote it, it might be just turned back into into a horror/fantasy show. So the only way that, that I can see unless anybody else has some other ideas or a way to do it, is for us to keep creative control of it, and have you know, witches, Wiccans, Pagans, British history buffs, American history buffs, this is a prequel to Salem, with us, as supporters, influencers and investors, otherwise, we just might lose it. So I wanted to share that as a reason why we're, we're doing it the way that we're doing it and hoping that you know, we have the support from you folks and from your listeners. Courtney 1:08:16And I could absolutely attest to that choice. And there is I want creators to remember that that is an option because it can be very difficult to publish something especially when it or have something produced that's that far out of the box when I did my tarot deck. well over a decade ago now, it I was told this won't sell 10,000 copies. Because it's, you know, it's photography. It dates too quickly. It's too much like the Rider-Waite, it's not enough like the Rider-Waite, I had heard a lot of different things. And I eventually just said, Okay, I'm going to self-produce, it is really hard to self-produce. And I did rely on immense amount of support from the witchcraft community who bought copies in advance. And it's a bit of a joke on the main publishers now, because now that I'm out of print, it was Tarot of The Burroughs it, they're very expensive. You can find them on eBay for well over $200 when I was selling them for 30 bucks.Thorn Trees 1:09:15WowCourtney 1:09:16So, that's the kind of thing and that's very true. Yeah,Bernadette 1:09:22I had that deck. Yes, I did!Courtney 1:09:23You know what, I won't blame you if you sell it and go on vacation with Tommy it's totally cool.Kanani 1:09:29I think one of the things too, that is one of the reasons I'm excited for your project and for things like this is you know, there's there's different ways that we can really bring understanding and acceptance to the Pagan witchcraft community. One of those is just exposure. You know, and and I talked a little bit about I've talked in previous episodes about there's a new Disney show called The Owl House and in the first story, in the premise of the story although it's very, of course fanciful and and cartoony and you know, silly kind of magick, but the premise of the story is us is us weirdos need to stick together. And the premise of the story is it's okay to be different and it's good to be unique and and it's great to accept the uniqueness amongst your friends. And it's these little stairsteps and but I think as much as we've kind of made it more okay in the mainstream to be Pagan, and to to call yourself a witch they already say I think it was like what witch, witches outnumber Presbyterians or something like that in the United States. Courtney 1:10:39By a lot! whatever! Sorry, Presbyterians, actually most Presbyterians, I know, are actually also witches. So they've kind of thrown the number off Bernadette 1:10:46Ha ha ha There ya go!Kanani 1:10:49we want it to be okay in the mainstream. But there's still because there is a fantastical aspect about it. You know, I think they're still kind of like, Oh, they think they can just, you know, light a candle with their finger or just make something appear and there isn't, there still isn't an understanding of what it actually is. Because it's always presented in a in a fanciful way that I I'm, I love the idea of of actually presenting it as No, this is actually what they do. And then they can then they can not only already kind of think it's okay or not no longer be nervous about it. But to actually gain a level of understanding of what a practice really looks like.Courtney 1:11:30And elevating that, you know, witches are good, decent people, because this podcast is doing the opposite to the reputation of most witches. They're like, Oh,Kanani 1:11:40they're like, those guys. No, thank you guys no.(laughing)Courtney 1:11:46So I think between us both are a partnership. Y'all we're evening out the playing field. We are we are continuing to malign witches. Y'all are elevating us somehow the seesaw's even thanks so much.Hilary 1:11:58Oh, my God.Valerie 1:12:00Well, we don't want you guys to think that the story is because it's about villagers. And it's because because it's more sort of, you know, natural how things actually exist, you know, and families and communities that it's boring because believe you me, it is not it's very there's parts of this that is so intense. The way that Jacob wrote it on the screen. We've had a couple of people who are in the industry read the script. And everybody comments about the opening how extremely cinematic it is and how very powerful and potent so if people want to you listeners out there if you go to the YouTube channel, the proceeds studio, you can look at the opening scene sort of sequence for Thorn Trees right at the pursuit studio, YouTube or you can go to the pursuit studio website. And you can look at the trailer there and check it out. But there's there's a lot of intrigue. There's there's a lot of Oh, boy. Everything that any and all of us have experienced in our lives. Every aspect of it from Oh, gee, the really wonderful aspects of life and the really horrible aspects of life and relationships as well. So kudos to you, Jacob.Kanani 1:13:30You actually just did a perfect segue. I think we're going to quickly play a clip of the show for our listeners.Thorn Trees Clip 1:13:50At every moment you make a choice. Last night, I dreamt of a man with a sword. I don't know who he is, but we need help if we're to survive. Our village will be cleared if we can't pay the rent; without homes, without food, we'll be dead by winter. We have to do something to help. I have to open the door no matter what comes through. We have to try to save our lives.(chanting magick) Because of me a ship was wrecked on the shore because of me sailors are dead. But a wreck means salvage; goods to sell, life will come from death. By the wreckin law, they can take whatever they want. As long as, God has taken the crew. What have I done?(fighting sounds) Where am I? Who are you?! My name is Rachel, You're safe. I found you at the wreck. Did you find a box wrapped in a cloth? I only found you noone survived. We were betrayed, sabotaged. Does anyone know I'm alive? No one saw me save you. You should be more careful 'till you're safe. You're a soldier. I'm worse than that. I've done things. So have we all. What is in the box? Secrets. If the wrong people find it, we're all dead. every man, woman and child. In the village? In England. Hilary 1:17:51Awesome. I'm inCourtney 1:17:52I'm in.Hilary 1:17:52I'm in. I'm into it.Kanani 1:17:54I'm into. Absolutely. And I I'm excited for our listeners, definitely go to our website and check out the trailer and watch the trailer because it is phenomenal. I am I'm absolutely hooked and excited.Thorn Trees Project 1:18:08Thank you!Hilary 1:18:08Oh, yeah. I'm really excited for that.Kanani 1:18:10Where can people follow you guys? Where can people learn more about this project and find out more about your work?Valerie 1:18:16Well, they can jump on their browser, type in The Pursuit Studio and that'll take you to the website. And from there, you can find out more information about Thorn Trees. You can join our Facebook group for supporters and influencers and potential investors because we're trying to get as many people who practice, are in the witchcraft community, Wiccan, Pagan, you know, we kind of tried to identify who we thought would would would most prime primarily be interested in supporting us. And that's history buffs as well British and American and people who are into female empowerment, because we have a female protagonist, very strong and we're gonna need you know, bucks to get this done. Anybody who's a producer has any contacts, you know, I believe in six degrees of separation. somebody knows somebody who knows somebody who can help us, you know, get this made. And so there's the Facebook group, which is called you know, Thorn trees. And what else? Yes, our YouTube. Just go to YouTube and type in the pursuit studio. You can check out the trailer there and portrayal of which is an entertainment discussion that we had, you can get in contact with us through the pursuit studio website. Easiest by using the contact form, and just letting us you know, hear from you and you know what you're interested in what you like to do. Go and get a pitch if you're an actor or actress and you'd like to be a part of having a table reading a virtual table reading of the script or Let us know. Also, let us know by contact form as well, if you're a witch who owns a business, and because we're trying to put together a another zoom discussion, focused on witches in business, looking for a co host, hoping Bern will host it because she's an entrepreneur. And, and let us know what you what your issues are what you would like us to discuss. Because I think a couple of months ago before, before COVID hit, there was an article about the boom! of witches in business, and where does this come from? And how come there's so many witches in business? So we'd like to explore that and have a discussion about it. So again, just use the contact form at the pursuit studio website, and let us know. And thank you for the question.Kanani 1:20:53Well, thank you guys so much for joining us. It's been absolutely wonderful to have you on. We also want to just thank you all so much for listening! If you want to support the show, the best way is to subscribe and spread the word. Please also consider leaving us a rating and review us on Apple Podcasts. You can also buy us a coffee or check out our merch on our Etsy store. For bonus content, become a supporter on Patreon. We are on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For show notes, audio transcript, or to ask us a question to answer on a future episode, go to . Until then, keep moting that shit! Talk to you next week! Courtney 1:21:32Bye bye.Jacob 1:21:34Thanks for having us!All Three 1:21:37So mote it be!Courtney 1:21:44Covid's changed a lot of ways I don't know if I'll be biting heads once we're back out in public.Kanani 1:21:47That's true Courtney 1:21:47It's ya knowBernadette 1:21:50no point there.Jacob 1:21:51Wow, Ladies, I'm concerned if we can get this made and get it on IMDB that's going on the trivia pageKanani 1:21:56(laughing) ya that's true. Absolutely.Courtney 1:21:59So I knew I was never going to get to run for public office but definitely it's out now. Yes, no ................
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