That Witch Life – A Podcast on Living as a Witch in Today ...



That Witch Life: Episode 43-Plant Magick with Christopher Penczak Plus Lúnasa Rites and RitualsMon, 7/27 1:57PM ? 1:15:47SUMMARY KEYWORDSplants, ladybugs, salt, witch, great, spirits, herbs, people, good, witchcraft, christopher, albertsons, keen, ritual, talk, experience, portland, magical, happening, alchemySPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Christopher Penczak, Courtney and Kanani, (Exit Music)Intro music 00:0020 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world, following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a witch in today's world.Hilary 00:48Hello, everyone, and welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. I'm Hilary, I'm your host today and I'm joined by Courtney Courtney 00:55hello Hilary 00:56and KananiKanani 00:57HelloHilary 00:59and we're excited to have you here with us. What has everyone been up to?Kanani 01:04Actually, I got to see Courtney about a week ago to give her belated birthday presents. Her favorite and I think was the card that I gave her Courtney 01:17Such a shit. Hilary 01:19hahahahaCourtney 01:21It was her favorite.Hilary 01:23What was it? Courtney 01:24I opened it and it said Happy 43 go I'm not turning 40 and she just giggles and when I open it up I just said haha because I turned 39 she gave me a card that said Happy 40th because she's an assholeHilary 01:34Man you're a dickKanani 01:36I told her because now I get to buy our two 40th birthday cards so now I was so we had fun we did a socially distance Witches walk which was really fun. Hilary 01:50Nice Kanani 01:50And got to see just kind of some a cute park and McMinnville and then did a really yummy barbecue over at Courtney's House.Courtney 02:02Oh, we forgot the trip to the grocery store Kanani. Kanani 02:05UGHCourtney 02:06First of all this is this may only make sense to people in Oregon. But first of all, Kanani was upset that I suggested we go to Albertsons instead of Safeway. Nevermind the fact that they're basically the same, but for some reason, Albertsons is just a little crappier. And I'm not sure why. So, but Kanani made it very clear that she was disappointed that we were going to Albertsons Safeway, and I said, Okay, we went inside. And here's the thing about this pandemic. It has made the chatty people chattier, and it has made the unchatty, I just want to get the fuck out people more unchatty, I just want to get the fuck out. Now, Kanani and I, despite being a podcast host are actually on the non chatty, just get the fuck out side. But we had this meat counter guy who was way into the chatty side, and I thought he was gonna follow us out of the fucking store.Kanani 03:02I don't even I mean, it was all we could do, just to stand there and wait for him. He only helped one other person in front of usCourtney 03:11for like 10 minutesKanani 03:12for like 10 minutes. And we just kept looking at each other. Like we're gonna rage we're gonna we can't do it here like it's gonna have to be somewhere more appropriate. Like, we can't rage in Albertsons it's not ok Courtney 03:24Like the the parking lotHilary 03:26OMG that's hilariousKanani 03:27I don't even know what he was the worst part was it's one thing that people are having like a conversation. The things that he was saying didn't even make sense. And you could tell it was even confusing to the people he was trying to talk to who were also clearly trying to flee, right? So it's just this guy trying to carry on these conversations that have no end that make no sense that first people were able to flee. And so when we finally get up to the counter to make our order, we are trying trying to be as as concise and use as few words as possible.Courtney 04:04But he was like, What are you gonna do with them? We're like kababs. He goes, Oh, you know what this, you do this and this and this, please just put them in the wrap, please. We gotta go. And he goes, I made kababs this morning. Let's look at each one individually here in the meat counter case, did you see how many slices of onion I put on there if you separate them this way. I'm actually laughing at this point, because I'm watching steam come out of Kanani's ears, because we all know she does not like people, especially people she doesn't know, especially people who try to get her to talk at the meat counter at Albertsons,Kanani 04:38all of these things, all of these things. And I know that in like my head, I'm thinking okay, well, the meat counter is so high, like I can jump pretty high. Like how what angle do I need to propel my body so that I can clear this counter and just take him out? Hilary 04:54hahahahaKanani 04:55And we like we had we ordered one other thing I can't remember It was and then as he's doing that, he's handing it to us. So like it's over. We're done. He goes. So how are you gonna cook cook the kebabs and we're like running with our cart and we're like barbecue... runCourtney 05:12And he's like coming out around the meat counter wanting to like discuss this with us like, dude, I know you're bored and lonely. The quarantine has sucked a lot. We are not the answer. Okay, we got to go. On the way home Kanani's like you made me go to Albertsons. This is all your fault. I don't do Albertsons. I'm like,Hilary 05:33Oh my god, Kanani 05:34it was 100% her fault Hilary 05:35I have had Well first of all, I like my edible garden is getting massive. Which is great. I have I'm growing. Let's see I'm growing. Lettuce, my kale the birds fucked with my kale. Courtney 05:50NOOOO fuck those birds.Hilary 05:51But I have lettuce. I have spinach. I have rainbow chard. I have cabbage. I have beets. I have zucchinis I have acorn squash and butternut squash. I have broccoli, I have celery, I have fennel. I have four kinds of tomatoes and tomatillos and then a bunch of herbs but the herbs are in a different section because they don't like to get quite as much sun. So my vegetable garden is going great but my plants I found some spider mites on both the vegetable garden plants and my in my herbs and so I was very late last night putting releasing ladybugs so I had to wait till like the sun went down and then I had to put water on the plants so The LadyBugs would have something to drink so I released like 100 plus ladybugs onto the plants so now my garden is crawling with ladybugs, which is cute but they also like crawled all over my arm which is kind of freaky because I was like Oh God, like even though I was like you're cute. I was like this feeling of things crawling on my arm like 20 or 30 of them kind of freaked me out. But the i got i also got a bunch of new herbs which I'm really excited about from this cute little plant nursery around the corner from my house. That are going in so like it's I've been basically spending time in my garden and trying to prepare it frantically for the like, two day hell heatwave that we're going to have here. Those of you in Arizona I know I'm sure are like what are you talking about, whatever, wah wahCourtney 07:15point and laugh Hilary 07:15But like for the Northwest it's going to be 100 degrees or 101. And that is like insane for here. Like none of us have air conditioning like it's very few of us have air conditioning it's likeCourtney 07:27And most of our air conditioning is crap because people didn't build houses out here needing it but now with global warming now you do. For our friends who do not use a Fahrenheit system that is 32 degrees Celsius,Hilary 07:38actually that's 34 degrees. Courtney 07:40So that's 34 degrees Celsius. Hilary 07:42101 is 34 Courtney 07:43101 is 34. So yes, it will be warm.Hilary 07:47It will be hot as fuck.Kanani 07:49I will be hiding in my bedroom next holding and hugging my air conditioner. That is where I will be.Courtney 07:55It reminds me everyone's like ladybugs are the cutest little vicious killer. Honestly, it reminded me, Kanani, a bit of my wedding.Kanani 08:04Your wedding was fabulous. But I have to say that I've never been so terrified of ladybugs in my entire life. If anyone had ever told me that anything about a ladybug could be terrifying I would not believe them. But when you are in a hotel, in the middle of the mountains, and you open your room door, and there are literally thousands of ladybugs, covering the walls and the floor and you can't even step without crunching on like 30-50 ladybugs. It's horrifying.Courtney 08:41Yeah, they came home with us in our suitcases.Kanani 08:44Oh, I don't doubt it. Hilary 08:45When there's lots of them. So like they're super cute. But yeah, I mean, I'm not kidding. Like when they came crawling out of that bag, they came like racing up my arm. And like I found one in my shirt when I was like getting ready to go to bed. And like, I can deal with a couple But yeah, I mean like bugs are bugs like when they That many crawling on you. You're like, ahhhhhKanani 09:02it was so weird when I was taking a shower. But to get ready before the ceremony, there were literally like more than like 100 to 200 ladybugs in the shower with me and I'm just like, Okay, this is fine, we are all gonna be fineCourtney 09:15That was the stoic look, we're all my wedding clothes and there’s Kanani, my bridesmaid standing up there. And it's like, oh, she looks so pensive and supportive and so engaged in the moments with us. She's like, I'm traumatized. Kanani 09:27I'm looking for ladybugs that's what I'm doing, they're coming up, they're gonna fight. Like,Hilary 09:32I had one of those things where like, I kept waking up thinking that there was a bug on me. You know, like when you've had bugs crawl on you before you go to bed. And then like, all night, you're like, it's about but it's really just a piece of hair or like, it's a bug. And it's like, Riley's, like what? And I like haven't been sleeping well, in general, just because like, well, for those of you, I'm sure many of you we're in Portland, Oregon. I'm sure the world has heard about it at this point. But there's some like very intense protests that are going on here right now. And it's just very tense in the city. And I mean, I think the news makes it seem like literally every inch of Portland Oregon is under siege. It's not it's very condensed condensed to a very small area downtown. But it's really intense. And the, you know, we've had federal officers sent in, which is a huge overstep of the government really, and they've been incredibly violent. They've been using really inappropriate force. They've been grabbing people off of the street without identifying themselves without any reason for holding them throwing them into unmarked vehicles and taking them and holding them in sometimes unknown places. And then just releasing them I mean, like, it's really it's terrifying. There's no it's I don't think it's anything like, at least in my lifetime, I've seen to this level of just like total and utter throw out of the Constitution.Kanani 10:50Oh, and I, I work, my my job works downtown and so not all of my some of my co workers are still are still there right now. And so it's kind of funny because for people in Portland, I keep getting posts from people who are posting pictures of Portland that look exactly the same as they did three months ago. And they're like, Oh, look, the horror, the siege because people are in Portland are so tired of hearing about what a shit show Portland is, when it's not what Hilary 11:22It's like 3 blocks.Kanani 11:23It's three blocks around the Justice Center where all of the events are happening. Only in the evening. You can walk through those blocks during the day. I actually saw there was some vendors out there that were making ribs during the day to feed the protesters knowing they wereHilary 11:38Riot Ribs, they're called Riot RibsKanani 11:40Yeah. And so it's like this is like the happiest like this is. It's such a good place. And so to see all this stuff on the news, and that being said, the feds have come in and have gotten so violent and so out of control that about a week. ago there was a group that came out called the moms group. And they came and they shielded the protesters and a lot of people have probably seen this on the news, they shielded the protesters, this really happened. And they were singing. And everybody was just like, this is amazing. This is beautiful. And there was only a couple hundred people. There's a few hundred people out there. And then all of a sudden, the feds, the police, the federal troops came out of the Justice Center. They They surrounded the protesters on all sides before they, the protesters, realized what was what had happened there that they were even there. And then before they knew what happened, they were tear gassed and being shot with rubber bullets. And it was so shocking. And up and it was it was one of the first experiences that a lot of white people, especially white middle class people have ever had with authorities, which is a similar experience to a lot of people of color, where for absolutely no reason an officer or Person of authority starts attacking you, for no reason you were doing nothing wrong. And now you were literally under attack. And it has so enraged this city. And this group of moms and people that I'm on a ton of mom, suburban Facebook posts and groups where it's like, oh, what arts and crafts are we going to do for our kids? And oh, how do you make your backyard kid friendly. And now they're talking posts, and they're like, Hey, I'm making tear gas solution that I'm putting in bottled waters, or bottled water containers, who has extra containers, who wants to donate supplies and go with me, we're going to pass these out to the protesters, because we know they're going to get the shit kicked out of them tonight, and they're going to have tear grass needlessly sprayed in their face. And all of these moms are now like, absolutely militant about protecting these protesters. And then we had the dad group that joined the next night with the leaf blowers. And then we have a veterans group the next night that showed up and then the next night There was a grandma's group that raging grannies. So it's like what had started with before the feds came less than 100 people showing up every night. Now I was told by someone who was there, there was more than 15,000 people there last night protesting and trying to protect the protesters because of what's going on with the feds and how out of control they are behaving with the protesters and how much they are violently attacking the protesters. And some of the stories that are coming out of it are amazing. And so what I want for people to take away from that don't live in town is one, Portland is fine. Portland is beautiful. There's a three block radius of Portland of people that are fighting like hell to protect their rights to protect the rights of people of color, and and need all the support they can get. But Portland is not under siege. Portland is not out of control, and the federal government has completely overstepped its bounds.Hilary 14:58Yeah, and let's end Let's be clear too like prior to the feds coming in, in which it was escalated to ridiculous proportions the police weren't being great either. They were consistently tear gassing people. They were you know, and you were talking about tear gassing people during a pandemic. So it people have masks on. And it's like, now they're coughing, and some people are ripping off their masks, they can't breathe right? Because of tear gas directly in the face in every city, they've said, you know, like, this is help, you know, this makes the spread of the virus worse, because actually protests in general, because of vast majority mass usage. And now 100% mass usage. They're not, we're not seeing a lot of virus spread. But in that scenario, the last thing you want is people having vulnerable respiratory systems during a respiratory pandemic, and like, it was just I mean, so the feds have definitely stepped way over bounds and they've escalated it to another level of just complete violent insanity but the police force, it's not like they were they were doing it right before, before the feds got here, it's just been a really disappointing thing to see because Portland is known for. I mean, Portland has a long history of protesting people here, you know, though it is a predominantly white city, they tend to show up when it when they need to show up and stand up for what's right. But and the protests are generally, you know, pretty mellow. And so it's like, we're talking and this isn't just Portland. I mean, protests around the United States have not been overwhelmingly violent. You know, it's like, the violence in the vast majority of these scenarios are coming from the police, which is really disappointing. Courtney 16:43You know, that's the way it's honestly that's the way it's always been. I'm sitting over here kinda jaded, because I've been doing protests started by pro my activists work in Portland back after the second Gulf War, and I've I've seen my friends get beaten up. I've seen that cop for things that people that of course, they turn around and say that the the protesters were doing it and so there'sHilary 17:01It's never the fucking protestors Courtney 17:03Well it's not I wouldn't say it's not never but but it's like consistently it's there's been violent pressure from the police and then they blame it all the protesters and so people are out there shocked that this is happening I'm sitting there going I'm not shocked. But I think where we want to be careful no matter what or where you are in this fight whether you're on the streets, or you are you know, you're doing keyboard warrior ship, which is our writing about doing all these all these things are, are valid, but make sure that you know if you are white you are listening to Well honestly, if you are not black, you should be listening to black people leading this movement.Hilary 17:42Yeah 100% Courtney 17:42We all get involved, but we cannot co OPT it and start making it about something else because now it's turned into more antifascist, which is, which is a valid thing to be concerned about is about thing to protest, but it's supposed to be right now about Black Lives Matter and it's becoming more about protecting the white people who are out there on the streetsHilary 18:05or just focusing it on fascism in general and like, again. I mean, I'm very anti fascist, like we should all be very anti fascist. But that's not what this, that's not what we're protesting right now. So, while, the outrage is there, of course, because of how heavily it's escalated. And, of course, the overstep of the federal government, which is disgusting and completely unconstitutional. You know, I think it's incredibly important. And I really, I really am right there with you, Courtney, it's incredibly important that we don't forget what this is about, and that we really, really listen to the the Black Lives Matter community organizers, because it's, we want to make sure that we are elevating their message not creating our own message. Courtney 18:47Yep, for sure. Hilary 18:48So Courtney, you wanted to talk to us a little bit about Lúnasa?Courtney 18:53Yeah, Lúnasa said yeah, so the next big holiday in the the Pagan Wheel of the Year as they call it in a lot of times in the United States I've heard people mispronounce it. And Lnasa comes out of Ireland. So it is originally an Irish festival. It is very, very old and has been is a celebration of that has been adopted in many different practices around the world. I know the southern hemisphere everybody is probably getting ready to celebrate imbolc or candlemass and but here in the Northern Hemisphere, we are getting ready to celebrate Lúnasa. Some pagans call it Lammas? Not really sure where llamas comes from. There's a rumor that that is out of Lord of the Rings like a Lammas breadHilary 19:38hahahahaCourtney 19:39There's a rumor I don't know how true that is. So don't sue me on that. But um, the the traditional the actual original name is Lúnasa and this is This week marks the Feast of Lugh and it is a harvest celebration. A ritual that is meant to give thanks for the bounty of the land and to ask the God's blessings that the weather will hold long enough to gather In the the first harvest I'm thinking of Hilary here and you're experiencing that right now as you've got plants that are ready to harvest so you're fighting against the spider mites. So the traditional date is the night of July 31 to August 1, but modern convenience has usually moved the date to whatever Sunday is nearest. So some sources describe Lúnasa as the story of the son of the god Lugh, defeating the god Crom Dubh, and making the world safe for humanity once again. So agricultural terms, the weather has been good enough for months that crops have ripened amid famine and is defeated for the time being. So it seems that a Crom Dubh may have been a major God if not one of the primary gods of Ireland before different waves of invasions came in and replaced the power structure and began to you know, shift which gods were worshipped. Other myths tales of Lugh's sorrow for the death of his foster mother Tailtu, who died after clearing the forests of Ireland to make way for farmland and then in honor of Tailtu, Lugh instituted a two week tribal assembly of games and trading and peaceful assembly in memory of Tailtu. So this is kind of think about, like, maybe the pre Olympic games that were actually happening in Ireland, not related to the Olympics. But think of something similar to that. And great sporting events took place in each tribe's center of power as the champions would test themselves against each other in feats of strength, of speed, and skill. And this festival would last for two weeks, culminating in the festival, the Lúnasa bonfires. And for these two weeks, it was really important that peace would be held, so no tribes would be fighting over cattle or anything like that. This was also a time when new laws were set down and announced, and musicians and storytellers would offer new poems and perform new songs for the first time. There was also said to be the custom of temporary or trial marriages being sanctioned at Lúnasa, and the emphasis on horse racing, coupled with the tradition of trial marriages and an emphasis on fertility may reveal even earlier spiritual roots of this festival. So, Lúnasa is traditionally marked by a bonfire as our most ancient Irish festivals, feasting, the ceremonial cutting of the first corn, picking of wild berries and dancing. So for Lúnasa many of these things might take place on top of the mountain as the climb is symbolic of Lugh's scent to battle Crom Dubh and presumably honoring honoring Lugh by getting up sometimes people call Lugh the sun god but other translations call him the shining one. So may have been a misunderstanding. So I it's I think one of the things about Lugh he was said to be many skilled and so he might have been, you know, bright, bright and shiny or person but I wouldn't necessarily call him a son god. So no matter where you are, if you want to celebrate Lúnasa, lighting of fire, if you can set a fire in your backyard, that's great. If you don't have a yard or you can't or you have birding restrictions in your area. lighting candles indoors is fine. So are battery operated candles friends, that is totally okay, do what you can and be respectful of your environment. So making offerings of your local produce. If you do follow an Irish influenced or a deity influenced path, you can make offerings to Lugh but I would also say, consider making offerings to your local land spirits. And so here where we are in the Pacific Northwest, blueberries and blackberries are coming in around this time. My husband almost always makes blueberry bread around this time at Lúnasa. And this is a really good time to make music and tell stories. This is a great way to involve children or nervous family members and a more communal celebration. It's like hey, we don't have to do a big, wierd, scary ritual. We can do a little talent show. Everybody brings something to share. And so the music or the stories you tell don't have to be pagan or witchcraft themed. They can be about anything one year, we had people come in and share their stories. And unfortunately I had one of the most awkward priestessing experiences of all time is that I was reading snow, I decided to read Snow Glass and Apples by Neil Gaiman and I forgot how sexually explicit that story was.Hilary 24:14hahahaha Courtney 24:14And I had been here since I read it halfway through, I was like, this is really sexual, should I stop here? Hilary 24:21Oh got that's so awkwardCourtney 24:23so awkward so I finished it and it was terrible because this one woman got so disturbed that I would share the story like that at a religious rite. And she cried and left and I was like, wow, okay, things we've learned. It was good for me because it really helped me be much more and you know, intentional about what the things that I share, but it was I was coming from the place of I love the story. It's so badass, you know, we hear the story of Snow White from the Queens version. And it's really disturbing. I could laugh about it now, but it's been a good 10 years, but it was certainly painful at the time. So other things you can do. witch I'm going to plan to do is clear weeds. This is in honor of Tailtu or an honor of your land spirits and considering planting native plants in honor of the land spirits and or pour out water to land spirits to honor their fertility, but this is a good time if you'd like to make things fertile in your own life, you know, whether it's fertility of projects, or you know, to help a pet or if you're actually trying to make small humans, this is a good time to ask for that help. So it's a it's a really great it can be a very light hearted holiday, I have found that it tends to, it tends to bring out some heavy stuff when you don't think about it. You You think it's for fun, you think it's for festival but sometimes it can actually expose you to some painful stuff, whether it's things you have to investigate in yourself, or things within your community when I was running my coven, it always seemed like at Lúnasa, we would have this really light hearted celebration, but something that really needed to be worked on in the coven, would come barreling out to the forefront. It would always kind of shake us up. So I also let people know that that that even the most light hearted witchcraft celebrations can sometimes call call for you to look at some dark stuff but that's the thing about fertility holidays. They're not always light and friendly we tend to think of fertility work and fertility spirits as this friendly happy this is the this is that pot like the the light stuff, but every fertility god or goddess has also has a very heavy handed scary side to them. And that is no different. So I just say go into Lúnasa with as much joy and celebration as you can. But you know, and then if, if maybe you won't have these experiences, but if you have something that comes up that's kind of dark and heavy, embrace it, and just say that's just part of this too. And it's time for me to work through this stuff and look at it. So that's what I can offer about Lúnasa. Also for more information on this. The Irish Pagan School has a class that you can download online. And it's 30 euro 35 US dollars and I actually just signed up for it, I'll be listening to it later today. And if you purchase it, you can listen to it whenever. But it's a really great way to learn more about the holiday from an Irish source. So I highly recommend people check that out. And I will have a link to the article where I found this information from which is from a site called a , but I will I will share that in our show notes.Hilary 27:20Fantastic. I'm going to go check that out. All right. So we're getting into that part that everybody loves to hate and hates to love. Kanani reviews a movie that the rest of the world has already seen. And we need to find out today if Kanani will shit on your dreams, or she'll actually like this movie in a movie and I hope to god that she likes this movie, because we had so many listeners come out and say that they wanted her to watch this. So today Kanani is going to review Kiki's Delivery Service.Kanani 27:53So I actually had to I had the hardest time trying to find it so I ended up buying it online and I waited to watch it until I had my daughter and actually last week, my goddaughter stayed with us. And so a lot of the people had said not only was it a movie I should watch but that it would be a good one to watch with my daughter as well. So I watched it with my daughter and my goddaughter. And it is a movie about a little witch who part of their the witch tradition is once they turn 12 years old, they go off and have to find their own community and kind of find their own way as a witch. And Kiki, who enjoys flying on her broom, kind of inadvertently finds that her knack and her skill is is flying and delivering things to people and helping people. So it's Studio Ghibli movie, I am obsessed in love Studio Ghibli movies. So this absolutely worked for me. I loved it. Thought it was adorable. My daughter loved it. I think my goddaughter really liked it. So it was it was definitely It was definitely a hit. And I'm very glad it is now in our in our library.Courtney 29:13So I got a question for you, Kanani. Which one did you like better, Kiki's Delivery Service or The Wicker Man? Kanani 29:20Shut your faceholeHilary 29:24Hold on. I need to I just need to make sure that I didn't hallucinate here. Did you say You liked it? Kanani 29:29I loved it. I thought it was adorable. So far of all the movies. Of all the movies that I've been forced to watch. That is the one that I most enjoy. I am going to say that that movie that little, probably because it's kind of so kid friendly and a little witchlet movie. I'm going to say that that movie is second to my favorite which is Practical Magic.Courtney 29:55OhHilary 29:56DangKanani 29:57I love Love, love that movie. And so I'm going to say Kiki's is now second to Practical Magic.Courtney 30:03Well, you haven't seen Return to Oz yet. That's going to be your third favorite.Kanani 30:07I have not seen that but I have had people tell me that have overheard you saying I have to watch that that they've already told me I'm gonna hate that movie and it's terrible. Hilary 30:16Don't go into it already hating.Kanani 30:20I've already been told by multiple people I don't know why she's making you watch that movie. You're going to hate that movie. I can tell you right now you're going to hate that movie.Hilary 30:28If you're not a Patreon subscriber, if you are you've probably seen this posted, but if you're not you don't want to miss out because because our last guest Jake Richards tells a super creepy, like way I almost had nightmares creepy, and I like creepy so that's saying something creepy story about The Peggy Hole. I'm not gonna tell you what that is because 1. I won't do a justice and 2. you got to go join our Patreon to hear this. So we're actually posting a lot of cool content on there. And there's bits and pieces from episodes little snippets that are only for our Patreon followers, so if you want to get if you want to hear the super creepy, super weird and creepy story that almost gave Hilary nightmares, you should definitely go and check our check out our PatreonCourtney 31:12I don't know what it is about the southern accent, but the southern accent makes for really terrifying ghost stories. Because I know when I was a kid, we would go visit my family in South Carolina and my cousin Mandy would keep me awake all night telling me these horrifying ghost stories that she said were all true. And so I had all these flashbacks when Jake is telling this story about the shapeshifting ghost woman. And I'm like, Oh my god, I'm back to my childhood. So yes, that is on PatreonHilary 31:38It's on Patreon. And there'll be some good stuff coming up too. If you if you join soon you'll get to see a tour of my herb garden that I've talked about like a bajillion times. I'll be doing that later this week because it's too fucking hot for anyone that's as pale as me to go out in the sun right now. Is it time for a sponsorship break?Courtney and Kanani 31:56Yes.Hilary 31:59We want to thank Keen for sponsoring this episode, there are a lot of major shifts happening in my life right now, and in the world, and sometimes I need someone to help me sort through these things. Calling Keen for a psychic reading was great as Keen provides access to vetted psychics and spiritual advisors who provide guidance and insights on life's challenges, clarity and love, relationships, career and more. When life seems to be speeding ahead of me, Keen advisors are available 24/7 for that last minute check in on what the next step should be. There's always someone online so you can easily schedule a call with an advisor. My advisor Astrobeams was very insightful and also encouraging. She provided really clear guidance and it was just what I needed to help me make a big decision. When you find the right advisor developing an ongoing relationship leads to a number of benefits, monthly intention setting, gaining clarity on the significance of synchronicities, chakra clearing or a gut check for a helpful and intuitive human that isn't a biased friend. Money is tight for many of us right now, but the good news is Keen is the most affordable way to meet new advisors. Each week Keen sends its users discounts on readings, making Keen one of the most affordable ways to receive multiple psychic readings. If you're a current Keen user, check your email to see this week's discounts. As a new Keen customer, and an awesome listener of ours, you can try your first 10 minutes for only $1.99 pricing then depends on which advisor you choose and the services are backed with satisfaction guaranteed. Try your first 10 minutes for only $1.99 go to thatwitchlife, Keen, because you deserve answers. Thanks again to Keen for sponsoring this episode. We are thrilled to welcome our guests Christopher Penczak. Christopher is a witch, teacher, writer and healing practitioner. His practice draws upon the foundation of both modern and traditional witchcraft blended with the wisdom of mystical traditions from across the globe as a practitioner and teacher of shamanism, Taro Reiki healing, herbalism, astrology and Kabbalah. He is the founder of the Temple of Witchcraft tradition and system of magical training based on the material of his books and classes. He is an ordained minister primarily serving the New Hampshire and Massachusetts pagan and metaphysical communities through public rituals, private counsel and teaching, though he travels extensively teaching throughout the United States. Christopher, we're super excited to have you on today.Christopher Penczak 34:36Thank you so much. I'm doing well. How are you guys doing today?Hilary 34:40We're doing great. Courtney 34:41ReasonableChristopher Penczak 34:42We're having a heatwave here too. So I totally understand.Courtney 34:46But New Englanders are a little harder about the heat and the cold were portlander Oregonians we need like a window of 40 to 70 degrees. If you get much outside of that. We don't do well.Hilary 34:57Yeah, it's our little Pacific Northwest kind of ecosystem here, rarely, you know, we're kind of not used to getting above 80 degrees or so. So like, even at 80, we're like, Ah, so hot. So today it's 100. And so it feels like we're in an oven. And none of us have air conditioning or even like, good, good enough fans. So we're all dying today. But otherwise, things are great. If my plants survive, I'll be happy. I'm sure they're equally as irritated with this sudden increase in heat. We arereally excited to have you today. So earlier, we were talking a little bit about Lúnasa. And we were wondering if you could talk a little bit about your your practices around Lúnasa. What that looks like before we jump into kind of more plant specific, sorry, more plant focused questions.35:50Sure. Well, in our tradition, the way that I tend to teach things, nothing is particularly set. So although we have themes each year, following each of the sabbats We never do the same thing over and over again. So this particular year, we've had to change everything to be online, you know, which I think all of us have. So trying to find ways to celebrate that are not in the flesh and not having bread and not having wine and not dancing and not singing, but are still magical have been a challenge. So I've been doing when I it's been my turn to lead the Sabbats or lead any of the other rituals. It's been doing a lot of stuff in vision, we tend to be very vision meditative, you know, spirit contacted kind of community. So we tried to translate that and kind of turn the rituals into almost kind of guided meditations in those ways. So this year, we're doing a whole thing on the cosmic mill. So we're talking about the mill and we have someone actually going to be singing the mill dance song for us, which is lovely, although the limits of zoom mean that we can't simulate sing along or we'll sound crazy. But the idea that that we're going to use the mill is almost the axis mundi. And the idea that it's tethered to the north star and it's kind of grinding the things that no longer serve and separating wheat from the shaft and what are the seeds that we bring to it to the ground? And what is the flour that we want to bake? So what are the good things we're bringing? What have we separated out from that, but doing a whole pretty intricate vision with the idea of the mill as a psychic place, which I think it is, and using the image of the nine maidens of the mill, which for me, so many of the nine mythological figures are interconnected. So whether it's the nine witvhes is a Gloucester, the nine maidens that warm the cauldron of the underworld, or obviously the nine sisters of Avalon, or the nine muses of Greek mythology, I think they're all kind of flowing from a similar source. So we're going to be working with the the nine maidens of the mill, and there's a whole system on the muses and how to determine which muse is your birth muse based on the astrology of it. So we've kind of extrapolated that and compared the muses to the ladies of the mill and giving people a little lesson and how to find your your muse and who's going to be inspiring you for the year.Hilary 37:53Wow, that's amazing. If our listeners wanted to figure that out for themselves, is there a good place for them to go do that?38:01At the moment, we don't have it, I don't have it written any book. And it's an obscure. I don't remember what text it's in. But it's in a pretty obscure alchemical text. So the best thing I could say, and not to be pimping out stuff, but it isn't open sabbat to the public, and we've got members all across the world. And when you register, we're actually sending out that information to a simple chart. Or if people hear this, I don't know when this will be broadcast. But if people hear this afterwards, if you just want to email me through my website, I'd be happy to send you the charts, no big deal.Courtney 38:30We actually talked about the Temple of Witchcraft a lot as a great resource for people who are looking for more more concentrated instruction and maybe don't have it in their area. And because like you said, there are people all over the world and it's such a, I mean, I've been having some real, real Temple of witchcraft longings the last couple of weeks, especially being cooped up so much and New Hampshire in in August. It's just so delicious and magical. It's such a witchy state. I don't think we all Think about that here on the west coast, we think of Salem or we think of New Orleans, which yes, those are witchy. But New Hampshire has a very witchy vibe to it. Christopher Penczak 39:08Yeah, we're the forest witches Courtney 39:10yes it is so true. Honestly, like the summer I spent in New Hampshire is when I was in college is when I figured out I was a witch. And so going back to do things with Temple of witchcraft has been like, Oh, yeah, that's why I picked up the vibe for sure.Christopher Penczak 39:26Yes, you know, the one thing I will say that has been an if I call it a blessing, but I guess a lesson from the whole COVID-19 stuff has been realizing how we could better serve our distant community. Like we have a mystery school in a seminary and has people from all over the world. Those are very fixed classes with homework, and not everybody wants to be in school all the time. And my original vision for it was was to get enough teachers to teach locally and to do classes locally and to do all that wonderful stuff. But realizing not everybody who studied with us has somebody local that's going to do that, or they don't necessarily want to take that mantel on So through this last couple months, we've really figured out like, you know, what can we offer that's free because I know a lot of people are having difficulty financially. And then what more can we offer open up online for people and I think our challenge but in a good way when things can open up and we can meet in person again whenever and however that is to try to figure out ways to make it more inclusive to our distant members or double some things up or do something just in a way to keep keep that outreach going.Hilary 40:26Well, so the first question we ask all of our guests, and so I'll ask you, when did you first realize that you were a witch?Christopher Penczak 40:35Um, that is always a hard question for me. Because, you know, like so many of us I think I've always have been, but the realization came after a skeptical phase. You know, I ended up in college I think is really when it happened. But I right after I graduated from high school, my first mentor, this is back in the days where like, you didn't want to tell kids you're involved in witchcraft because we had no witchcraft families or things like that or the festivals at least around here, we're not that open. And it was very much you were afraid of corruption of minors what she told me she was a business owner and the local, you know, communities. So she waited till I was 18. before she even hinted around that I was a witch even though I'd known her since I was seven. And as soon as this teacher told me that she was a witch, because she's my art teacher outside of this, funny thing, and I just thought she was crazy. I just thought she had been a part of a cult that this was insane. And I just wanted to learn enough to talk to her about it to kind of pull her out of the cult. And funnily enough, you know, as the more I got involved, the more I was like, Oh, I think this really makes a lot of sense and kind of woke to that realization that it was for me, but it really was probably the class with Laurie Cabot. Her teacher was Laurie Cabot and I got to the point where she's like, you know, I need to take you to somebody who can kind of give you more formal ideas and training. And after that first class with Laurie Cabot after finishing witchcraft 1, the first degree classes, there's a test at the end that's based on psychic diagnosis and psychic healing. And, you know, I went in from the class going hmmm this is interesting, but it could all be bullshit to you know, maybe this this is real Okay, well Laurie Cabot can do it,yep, she was pretty special, to oh my god, I can do it. And I think it was the Oh my God, I can do it, you know really kind of blew my mind. And I really consider to be my first initiatory experience. I think the rituals and such have been great for initiations. But that was the change your life kind of initiation moment for me. Because just the whole concept of how interconnected everything was, if I could pick up on people I didn't know and diagnose them accurately that had been verified from a doctor, then that current must work both ways. And I must be projecting and I wasn't particularly happy in my life at that time. So I was just like, oh my god, what am I projecting out to the world? And it really kind of woke me to the metaphysical reality and I think that's when I decided, I don't know if I decided I was a witch at that point. But I decided I wanted to be a witch or wanted to dedicate more of my life to this. So that was really the the awakening experience for me.Hilary 42:52Well, Christopher, I'm excited to have you on because I've read your book, The Plant Spirit familiar and I like first of all, I'm a big I'm a big plant nerd both in magical plants but also just plants in general. I think for a long time I also lied to myself about being able to keep plants but I just wasn't responsible. And then and then I started to learn like, oh right you like you know you get what you that you get what you put into something. And so then I started getting really into plants and like geeking out about plants and herbs and you know, both foraging herbs and growing herbs and now I have like herb garden and an edible garden and a bajillion way too many houseplants it's a problem and so I'm excited to to chat with you about herbal magic today. Can you can you tell me a little bit what first drew you to the use of plants in your own magical practice?Christopher Penczak 43:44Well, I think at heart You know, when you asked before, how did you first awaken to being a witch or how would you know that you were first a witch? Me kind of awakening to it through the healing work with Laurie Cabot was like the awakening that this is real but when I looked back on you know, childhood stuff, I think we all get into I remember being so deeply involved with the plants but not really knowing what to do. You know, my dad was a big gardener and we had you know, the big vegetable garden and everything I remember right next to his garden planting an herb garden. I didn't know why, but I knew it was super important. So I had my lavender. And that was actually the main thing I remember it was lavender, but I think lavender parsley, some dill, some sage. And I was probably like, I don't know, 9 at the time, maybe 11. And going forward from that like just even as a little kid playing, you know, dungeon dragons, fantasy type of thing, collecting things in the forest, having a big box of little bottles that had you know, sticks in it had different flowers I collected and dried so as sort of doing, you know, the precursors to herbalism and herbal magic, but not really knowing what that was, but just kind of playing pretend. But I think for so many of us, we've done it in lives before. And so we kind of remember these things, but we don't really know what to do with them. You know, so much so that when I was trying to figure out like you know, that big question, what do you want to be when you grow up? I really got deeply involved in alchemy and trying to understand exactly what alchemy was. And at that time since then I've met you know, modern alchemists that practice. But usually, you know, your local library or story of alchemy would be like, and then they discovered chemistry and realized alchemy wasn't real. And you know, and I decided I wanted to be a chemist because of that. And then something kind of stopped me right as I was going into college at all that all set up to go into chemical engineering. And then I kind of did a hard pivot and decided to become a music major surprising all my family and delighting them to know endHilary 45:31they're like, what?Christopher Penczak 45:32yeah pretty muchHilary 45:34I also was a major music major, soChristopher Penczak 45:37Oh awesome.Hilary 45:39I studied voice nd, and my family was like scientists, they were all medical, like medical or science, a few academics. And so they also were like, what?Christopher Penczak 45:51So from there, I ended up, you know, studying with Laurie Cabot. The second degree of it is very much what we think of is like modern Wicca and witchcraft have emotions in the circles and the casting of spells and everything. And some of the most profound experiences, were actually just making magical potions. So you know, the idea of charging each ingredient and really getting in tune with its vibration and really speaking to its spirit and getting a sense of what it was all about before you're tossed into the cauldron was really meaningful to me. And you know, when people would talk about from my former Catholic background, the mystical experiences they had, I was like, well, I never really understood what that was about, but I'm sort of feeling it with the plants. And I sort of get disenchanted with my pagan community. It's interesting, you'd said that like, Oh, this is home for me. I don't know if I've ever felt that way. Even with the pagan community. I feel like I've always been kind of outsider among outsiders. So for some that was supposed to be all about healing and the magic of healing and the wisewoman traditions and you know, all that kind of archetype we get sold when we get into it. Nobody around me and kind of the Salem, Massachusetts area and into New Hampshire really knew a lot of healing beyond what they taught me. So I started going into more of the holistic stuff. So I started with an herbalist and I started with the flower essence practitioner and I got certified in both of those. And that led me sort of into kind of more of the New Age world and eventually circled back into witchcraft. But it was because I wanted to be a better healer that I kind of explored.Hilary 47:15That's awesome. Yeah, I think plants were huge huge draw have always been a huge draw for me also. I don't know. I just I think once I started connecting with plants, I was like, my, everything changed for me. It's just like, oh, wait a minute. It that felt so natural, you know, just like that relationship between plants. Yeah, so I totally, I'm glad you found your way back around. Sometimes we go down that path, right? We just kind of do this. Okay, we're gonna go over here. We're gonna go over here to kind of find our way around to where we fit in that place, you know, right.Christopher Penczak 47:46Right. Courtney 47:46I feel like I'm in that space right now. Actually. Yeah, by the outskirts just trying to in where I fit in is with Kanani and Hilary.Hilary 47:55Yeah. Really, when I mean home, I mean these two weirdosKanani 48:01That's pretty much it right there.Christopher Penczak 48:04Yeah, I feel like I was, I was so unsatisfied with the community I had, I eventually always ended up creating groups. And so that's how the Temple of Witchcraft came about, because I wasn't really happy with the groups that were my area, and they didn't really embody the things I wanted.Hilary 48:17Yeah, you know, I think that there's something to be said for, you know, you know, gaining knowledge and gaining experience, but creating what you want. I mean, I certainly feel like, I've taken a lot of time to create the type of community that I want. I mean, I've met some amazing people along the way, right? But I think there's something to be said for like finding what makes sense to you and then making space for that to exist, you know.Christopher Penczak 48:43I agreeHilary 48:43Okay, so can you talk to us a little bit about the relationship of which builds with plants? For me it's a it's like a it's a mutual bond. You know, it's a mutual relationship.Christopher Penczak 48:56Yeah, absolutely. I think of everything is ensouled or enspirited. Everything has kind of a guiding intelligence and its own agendas at times. And you know, spirits are people too is what I like to say. I think that includes plant spirits. You know, one of the most humbling experiences I had early on was, you know, that whole assignment of go talk to a tree. And there were these three oak trees in the backyard where I grew up, and it's when I first started practicing, we're still in that house, and going up to the trees, like all excited, you know, new witch and be like, Oh, the trees are gonna talk to me. And the trees just had such a sense to me of being non fussed, and we're like, oh, it's a human, like, we know you, you know, but they had their own business they were doing it was almost like I was a little kid interrupting them. And I was so taken aback. I was maybe 18 or 19 at that time, but I was so taken aback that that was the response in such a way that was helpful for me because I realized, well, I'm not making this up. Because if I was making this up, they'd be like, Oh, so happy to see me and it would be so great and would affirm all the things I wanted to affirm. But the fact that it surprised me, you know, starting to show me Okay, these techniques to speak to the spirits. I think there's something real to them and Having other verifiable experiences were good. So from that point forward, it was really the idea of getting communication. And for me because I'm such a skeptic getting verified communication has been super helpful. So my flower essence teachers and my herbal teachers often talked about how the plants build special relationships with people, and they'll tell you what they're for. And sometimes like the same herb in different parts of the country, or different parts of the world are used for different things even though they have the same chemicals because that's not their relationship with those people. And so in this modern world, we're going to be really kind of reforging our own individual relationships with them so having the plants tell you what they want to be used for magically in medicinal a and then that verification of looking up in a book and realizing like oh, that really is what it's for. But also having a kind of decipher through that language has been an interesting part of the relationship because all those spirits of people to in a way that they have their own agenda and plants or spirits, they don't honestly have the same language. You know, modern American English that we do. So they're not always going to convey things in the easiest ways for us to understand because their worldview is so different. I remember having one of my first and early profound experiences in flower essence training, was working with the yarrow. And I felt like I sat down and the assignment was you sit down with the yarrow when you speak with it and try to get a convey what it's about. And it might give you images and sensations, feelings, words, you know, they're all going to communicate differently. And I got the sense of being enveloped in like a big cocoon or a big bubble. And I was very, you know, warm and happy and thinking, Oh, this is great. And then I felt like I was pushed out, and I got sort of upset. And then that process repeated three or four times where I'd be all enveloped and it'd be pushed out and there'd be a barrier between us. And I didn't really get what it was trying to say to me so I left that experience really frustrated but wrote down on my field notes and you know, we're discussing it back in class. And just as witches have, you know, their big blue book from from uncle Bucky, as I like to say, the flower essence folks have their own big blue book called The flower essence repertory. And so we opened up that book to Yarrow and my teachers, like read this and tell me what you think. And it was all about how Yarrow is about boundaries. And how if your boundaries are too restrained it expands them, if they're too expanded, it brings them in. If there's something that's good, it lets it in through the boundary. If it's something that's bad, it sends it out. So the Yarrow plant was really trying to tell me about all these aspects of boundaries, by showing me how it could let me in or showing how it could keep me out based on like a very kinesthetic experience, but because I'm so verbal, I expected a verbal message from it. So also kind of getting out of my head that they can teach you in ways that are unexpected. So for me just as a healer, magical practitioner, witch all of that has been about really meeting the plants where they're at, and really trying to listen to what they're trying to say to me in the language that they're using. Because you know, just because it's easier for me doesn't mean it's gonna be the best way to convey it to me. He could have talked, the yarrow could have talked all about boundaries, and I'm probably would have intellectually gotten it, but having such a kinesthetic experience was such a teaching experience for me. So just really treating them as the entities that they are asking them what they need, both on that kind of macro cosmic level of like the oversoul of the plant spirit of the whole race of that species of plants, you know, or working with that individual one that's in your garden and realizing the plants operate from both those levels, like having experience with Datura, Datura has become my strongest plant ally, and is very powerful and very engaging for me. But part of it also is a deal. You know, Datura says, I want you to teach more about me, you know, I'm not being talked enough about a lot of witches don't know what I am. And then I also want you to scatter my seeds, and teach people how to grow them and to kind of cultivate me more. So you know, people appreciate me as the plant I am in the garden, in the wild, wherever it may be, but I want to be grown more. So also recognizing that that was part of the deal. You know, so just like working with people and having to make bargains and arrangements that spirits are the same way, plant spirits in the same way too.Hilary 53:56I think that's such a an important lesson is that I mean, and I I fell into that, too, in the beginning was that I expected messages to come through verbally. Right? You know, I was like, well, I talk, so why isn't this plant, crystal, whatever I was working with, talking to me, right? And I think that that's a really good point that, you know, that's not always the way that that spirits communicate, I mean, any kind of spirit. So I think being open to that and recognizing that it's not, not always going to be a scenario where you're having a chat with someone that it's that it can be an experience, a feeling a you know, as, as you said, getting immersed and then feeling the rejection and then getting immersed saying, like, hey, these are my boundaries, I'm not going to do whatever you want me, you know, this is like, I'm not just doing your bidding forever, the way you want it to happen.Courtney 54:47Yeah, I think that there's a way in observing the feelings you get from a plant and the way you observe certain actions about an animal when they're scared or when they're happy. I know that recently when I was walking Ichabod we passed a fawn and he was not interested. his prey drive is super low. So he was like looking at the fawn and was like whatever. But the fawn saw this giant Malamute Shepherd mix. It was like oh crap and started bouncing. And a lot of people look at that and go how cute, it's a happy fawn. And I was like, No, that's a predator detractor because it will in will confuse most predators just that they can't follow you as fast if you're jumping up and down. But an experience I had with plants that was like this was there was a tree up in Fort Tryon Park in New York City when I lived there. And every time I saw this tree, I just wanted to hug it. And there was while, like Christopher, I was skeptical of the feelings I was getting that this tree was happy to see me because every time I felt this tree, it was like oh, you're here and just kind of vibration that I I interpreted as happiness. And then one day I went up there, huggged the tree. And that feeling wasn't there and said it was a feeling that I can only describe as being like, like a panic. And I thought, what, what has happened here? And I wondered if I was creating that if I was you do, it's putting some kind of my own story or whatever of a time I was anxious and just putting it on this tree. And I was like, okay, that's a little weird. But then later that week, I was at a restaurant and saw a flyer that said that there had been a vandal who had gone into the park and they cut down about a dozen trees in that area of where that tree had been just a few days before I had gone and had that experience in which the tree was panicking. And I've learned since that the trees have their underground network through their roots. And so I do believe that what I felt was the tree communicating to me that it was scared maybe it was scared of me, because obviously a human had done that and wondered, am I going to do that or It was just telling me that it had been traumatized. So sadly, the park I did come back around one day and saw the tree again and the tree had been cut down. Hilary 57:09Oh my god. Courtney 57:10Oh yeah, I've I took a piece of its bark and it's on my ancestor altar. right? because that was the first true, like when I was a kid I made friends with squash plant were very tight. But as an adult who, as a witch, that was the first tree where I we were really, really good friends and it was sad that he was gone. But I'm with you, Christopher was that that kind of confirmation that I needed that okay, I did pick up on something there.Christopher Penczak 57:36I think that's so important when you're studying and even you know, to this day, I still like to have confirmation of something because I think it's very easy to get off the rails and assume every intuition you have is absolutely right about yourself and everyone else and I found that not to be true. So it's always nice to have little confirmations, whether it be with the plants or whether it be you know, even psychic stuff you pick up on I always appreciate that.Kanani 57:56Let me say Christopher, one of the things that I really love about About what you've been saying and kind of listening to talk and, and stuff is I love that you're that you're just a skeptic. And I love that. Because I think that that's something that's very helpful for people, especially with magical practice is to just kind of, yes, you want to use your intuition and yes, you want to kind of trust things and listen, but you also kind of, you do want a little bit of verify. You do want to kind of step back and assess and think about things and and so I like that as you kind of described things you also kind of talk about checking back in with yourself and not getting too far off.Christopher Penczak 58:39Thank you. I think that is important. And I think it's also important to realize not everybody is great at everything. You know, when I got involved in this I was super interested in it, you know, in as I got through my skeptical phase and realize my friend wasn't in a cult or she was it wasn't a bad cult it was helpful for her you know, there's often a sense for people who are very intuitive and very creative, too. You kind of run away with the little thing and get really engrossed in it. And that could be fun at times, but not always helpful for people who are not on the same page. So I remember like, you know, people talking about my first class, the amazing power of crystals, and I love crystals right now, I love different stones, although, honestly, these days, I probably love the beach stone as much as I love the rare you know, gem, but at the same time, you know, people were like, can you feel the energy in this quartz? And I'd be like, I can feel it's a rock. You know, they just be like, no, can't you feel the energy? The vibrations? Just tell me to my hands. I was like, Yeah, it's a rock. Like, I didn't feel those things. It took me a long time to train myself into listening to those subtle cues. You know, my friend Storm Fairywolf often talks about how, you know it's subtle energy. And we say it's subtle energy for a reason. It's subtle. So for a lot of people who are just dying to have that kind of permission to feel things, which I think is great. And sometimes some people have been feeling things all their lives and feel like they don't have the space to have that be okay. But for a lot of us are on the opposite end of the spectrum. And it was just, you know, took me a while to feel things intuitively and to trust those impressions the verification part really, you know, helped me kind of bring it to reality because I think, you know, I could I could have all sorts of sensations and think, Oh, I'm having an experience. But, you know, how do I know that I'm having this experience and I've seen so many people in our magical and New Age communities really kind of go off the rails because they just they can't function with verification, everything is automatically verified because they had it.Hilary 60:23Christopher is there you know, with everything that's going on in the world right now with COVID. With a you know, with social justice with political unrest, what is there an herb that you think is just especially powerful or useful during these trying times?Christopher Penczak 60:41That is a great question. I think she'd be very mad at me if I did not mention my beloved Melissa, Lemon Balm.Hilary 60:47We are lovers of herChristopher Penczak 60:48That's another one that's been....Courtney 60:50Is that why I have so much in my house.Hilary 60:52So much at my house she's everywhereChristopher Penczak 60:54helpful. You know, she really is she's the most helpful herb I think, is filled with a lot of lifeforce But it's not that burning life force so you know it kind of fills you up without kind of setting you on fire. So it's great if you feel like your anxiety ridden, it's not something that's going to kind of pump you up like a fire correspondence. It definitely just nourishes you. She's really great for any type of anxiety of the digestive system. She's really great for any type of anxiety of the nervous system, but she's not a sedative. I just find Melissa to be such a powerful herb, lemon balm. It just smells so good. It's easy to grow, you know is not not taking over any place. It's not invasive. I just I think she's just such a great herb. I'd love to have her everywhere. Premier herb of the alchemists. It's one of the first tinctures you learn to make an alchemy because it does support your lifeforce because those alchemists you know, end up subjecting themselves to all sorts of toxic stuff in the laboratory. So I just love her. I think that's that's been a really important herb on a medicinal...Courtney 61:51Yeah, one one note about that. Out in the Pacific Northwest lemon balm is invasive. Christopher Penczak 61:56Oh, really? hahaCourtney 61:57Yeah, it is invasive. So just mentioning that to anyone out here and it does grow very quickly. It loves this the cool dampness so we we recommend our listeners to grow it and pots. Yeah, if they want to grow it in this part of the country. Christopher Penczak 62:09No, I didn't know that.Hilary 62:10I'd say like, probably a quarter of my very large yard has lemon balm like in I'll be mowing the lawn and I'll be like, What's that smell? And I must have been some small crowds. I mean, like, it's every I mean, it's everywhere. I could I don't think I mean, I don't think I'd have enough jars in the store to filll how much lemon balm is in my backyard. What's a good way to show thanks to plants that you're using? Like, are their offerings that are good? Is there a way that you feel like a witch that's using these plants or herbs in their practice can give gratitude.Christopher Penczak 62:43I think gratitude is the hugest thing and gratitude by example. So offerings are nice from a magical perspective I think the greatest offering is watering. You know, I think a lot of plants don't always necessarily need the things that we often give his offerings you know, and I've seen a lot of things before Pour out milk or pour out beer or pour out these things. The plants that I work with, they really want water. So pouring out the water when they're dry, really taking care of them if you're cultivating herbs really to take care of them. And for me, it's really been the verbalization talking out loud to them has been a huge part of it. Having that relationship honoring to recognize them as entities just as you might talk to a beloved pet talking to the plants out loud as well as it's been huge for me.Hilary 63:25I was saying earlier in the podcast during our intro that my offering to my class last night was ladybugs because I noticed like two spider mites on one plant and I was like, No way is this happening. Like I spent way too much time trying to make sure that all of these plant babies are happy. And so I unleashed like 100 ladybugs in my yard yesterday. And a lot of waterChristopher Penczak 63:48I find also with plant infections, particularly if you've got a strong magical relationship with the plant to really kind of look at what's reciprocal about going on in your life or going on in your community. I raised mandrakes and the mandrakes we have one for each of the the founders of the temple of witchcraft, my two partners, Adam and Steve and I, all have three mandrakes next to each other, and a couple more in the house. But those are our three primary ones. And mandrakes for as poisonous as they are, they're prone to all sorts of the infections that tomatoes get. So we get everything from different types of molds to different types of insects. And it's always interesting, they're almost like a barometer for what's going on in my life. Or a barometer for the pressures that are coming to me from other people whether it be someone not wishing me well whether it be energetically psychically, magically, or just you know certain imbalances in my own life. I can notice them in the regenerative nature of the MandrakeHilary 64:41That's amazing. That's such a such a good point because I think, yeah, like my science brain is like, what is going on with this? Why is this leaf turning brown? What is happening? And then I'm always like, looking at you know, I'm like looking at on the internet, like, maybe I'm over watering, maybe I'm under watering, but I think that that's such a good point, like And thank you for that, because I'll definitely start tuning into like what is Yeah, what is like the energetic cause of that too because I think that's because I've noticed that with some of my houseplants recently, and I'm like, oh, maybe I need to do a good clearing of the space because there's been a lot going on in the last couple of months. We actually have a listener question question. And we wanted to have you weigh in on it so we can all discuss it together. So this listener said, "I have a question question of the use of salts in witchcraft spells, practice etc. I live in the Great Lakes Area. Several studies have found that these powerful waterways are the watershed in my in my state are becoming more salty, from the widespread use of salt in the winters in this area. Many spells and circle casting and literature I have read use salt for a variety of reasons, mainly cleansing and protection. Because of the alarming environmental changes occurring. I'm trying to do all that I can to not contribute to things that may cause further environmental harm. So I am incredibly wary of using salt. Do you have any suggestions on what? What else can be used in place of salt or resources or references I can study that would provide alternatives to salt use?Christopher Penczak 66:12That is a great question, not an idea I've had to contemplate before. I guess it depends on what she's using the salt for. But if it's primarily for protection or cleansing, I might suggest making a gem elixir of another protective or cleansing mineral and not just having it be dissolved in the water but something like let's say like a Black Tourmaline or a Smoky Quartz or something like that could be lovely rudall quartzHilary 66:38and what if if she did that what would be a good way? So like, how could she implement or I don't know I'm getting making a generalization of this person's gender. But how could this listener utilize that?Christopher Penczak 66:51Well, if you're using mixing salt and water together and spurging your circle area, or using as the cleanser a wash for you Your hands or your ritual tools or things like that, you could make the gem elixir and preserve it for so for people not familiar with the gem elixir or flower essence, they're a way to imprint the vibration of the substance onto the water. So you get a lot of its magical virtue without having a lot of its chemical. So what you do is take a glass bowl filled with water. And particularly for this right you might not necessarily have it be super purified water, but you know, whatever is available to you, and soak the mineral in it in sunlight, and that'll transfer the virtue of it just for a few hours. And then generally, if you're making a medicine of it like a vibrational remedy to give people in a smaller dose, you'd preserve it by adding some alcohol, say a high proof brandy or if you have problems with alcohol, a high proof for high concentration vinegar, like an apple cider vinegar, and that's the mother essence and you take a few drops of that and put it into another bottle that's diluted that's the same type of solution of alcohol and water. And then you might take a few drops of that and put that into a dosage bottle to take orally but if you're using ritually I might even just take the mother essence of it and pour out a few drops of it into my bowl of water on my altar to use it for my cleansings instead of putting salt in it, just put a few drops of the tincture.Hilary 68:11That's really smart. Thank you, for that.Courtney 68:14I think I also just want to first of all commend this which for being so conscientious about their environment and not thinking that they are exempt from potentially damaging their environment because there are which which I think is a problem. On that note, I also want to to let's look at the differences between what's happening institutionally and what you're doing so so the salt I think they said that it was coming from from the wintertime salted roads, okay, so that's a very high quantity, high concentration also chemically, chemically concentrated kind of salt, very, very different than the kind of like table salt you might have in your home. And also the quantities of how much is being used and and causing problems in the water with the kind of the amount of salt you would be using and the kind of salt you'd be using is unlikely to cause a lot of environmental damage. Now, that being said, I feel that your decision to stay away from Salt is actually more of a spiritual and energetic contribution. It's a way of saying to the land spirits, I recognize that this is harming you. And so I'm going to do I'm going to withdraw this, you know, in order to, you know, in order to help with the energetic balance, so I say that to mean that if you've used salt in the past, don't be hard on yourself, because I cannot imagine that you have used anywhere near the amount of salt and the kind of salt that is causing the same environmental damage is what's happening with the salted roadways. So I feel like I really want to support you, in continuing to say I'm going to with I'm not going to use this mineral because I recognize that this hurts you and energetically that's going to create a better bond with the earth spirits and otherwise, and I think that Christopher's suggestions are absolutely wonderful. One of the things that I sometimes use is a sprig of rosemary in water. And that's a great way to get clean water with some rosemary and just like smack the area with it. I use that recently after a really bad nightmare. I went out and got it ran some water on some rosemary to kind of cleanse myself off with it out in the backyard so the dream would leave with me out into the into the space and the land spirits knew what I was doing and they were fine with it because what was going on in my head was not going to affect them. They totally got that but again, I'm really commending you for making this this very spiritual choice but please don't be hard on yourself if you have use salt in the past because I cannot imagine you did it at the the quantities that would it would take to damage your environment.Christopher Penczak 70:41Another interesting idea I have is from an alchemical model, working with the plant salts. So in alchemy, you can extract the salt from the plants which is just the minerals. It's not necessarily sodium chloride. But after you make a tincture, you take the herbs out and then you actually burn what's leftover with it. called the mark, and it burns down to ash, then you heat it up and it goes from black ash to gray ash to white ash if you're gonna be really hardcore about it, but it has a lot of the magical virtues of the plant. So you could take a protective herb, let's say like a comfrey, or a horse tail. And you might, you know, make a tincture and have it for medicine and then use the plant salts if you're not going to get further into alchemy. And you could use that magically like you'd use regular salt but it wouldn't be any different than if you had in your garden and it decayed.Hilary 71:27Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that was possible. That is like, amazing Courtney 71:29I love that.Hilary 71:31I'm like, now I know what I'm gonna do all the time.Christopher Penczak 71:36Yeah, if you want to get really hardcore about an alchemy, they separate out the salts, they purify them, and then they add them back into the tincture to make what's called the spagyric. tincture, although that's the simple method. If you want to have a whole lab there's a whole more complex,Hilary 71:49Thre's a whole thing. WOWCourtney 71:50Yeah. Wow. If I can make a bet as to who on this podcast team would do that. I'm guessing you would definitely be not Kanani.Kanani 72:00That's a given.Hilary 72:02She's like way to much effort. Courtney 72:03She goes ohhh There's effort there. Yeah, no,. Hey if I can buy it I'm down. While Hilary's taking notes and she's like, Where can I get the equipment I'm gonna do itHilary 72:15I'm like if I had unlimited funds to buy like all of this, like science like alchemy equipment that I wanted, I would be like, doing all of my own essential oils I would do all of it. Well, Christopher, what is a good way for people to keep in touch with you?Christopher Penczak 72:33Probably the best way is my mailing list, which can be found at . I try to send that out a couple a couple times a year, maybe four or five times a year. I'm also on all the social medias. Well, not all the social medias, but a lot of the social media. So I'm on Facebook, with both a personal and a professional page, Twitter, Instagram, and then you can find a lot about my community work, which is where honestly I'm doing most of my stuff right now is through the Remple of Witchcraft. So we have both The website and those social media as well. So or check us out on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram.Hilary 73:08Well, Christopher, it's been just a joy having you on thank you so much for coming on and giving us all of this amazing information. I'm like, already My mind is already like, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this and I'm so excited. So thank you for sharing all of that with us and, and I know our listeners are going to take so much value in it. I know we have a lot of listeners who are really in love with plants. And if you haven't checked out Christopher's book, The Plant Spirit Familiar, go, go buy it. It's amazing. There's so much information in there about plants, specifically. And so to wrap up, we just thank you for so much for listening to the show. If you want to support the show. The best way is to subscribe, subscribe, rate and review us on your favorite podcast forum. We are now on Patreon. So go check us out there we have lots of cool content, including little snippets from episodes that aren't on our main episodes. So if you want some bonus content that's a great place to get it as an incentive. We're holding a live online ritual and q&a session for anyone who becomes a Patreon between now and the end of July. SoCourtney 74:10Few more days y'all Hilary 74:12get in on that getin on that. If you don't want to commit to a monthly subscription we could you can buy us a Ko-fi or you can purchase a handmade that which life merchandise on our Etsy store. We are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram so be sure to follow us there and to keep in touch for shownotes audio transcripts or to ask a question to answer on a future episode or if you have any suggestions for those for those who have asked questions, go to until then keep moting that shit and we'll talk to you next week.Courtney 74:41Yes.(Exit Music) 74:42Join us on the first and third Monday of the month for Magickal tips and stories about living as a witch in today's world. Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be.Kanani 74:55It's Courtney's fault I do not have a friendly face. I look like I want to shank someone. Courtney has a friendly face and it's infuriating because people then want to talk to you and it makes me crazyHilary 75:07"I do not have a friendly face" oh my godCourtney 75:10I had a giant sunglasses and my mask. How am I supposed to look friendly? You can't even see who I am.Kanani 75:16You smell friendly. It's annoying.Courtney 75:18I did smell friendly. It's Do I really I really pretty do to it. You know I wear men's old I wear a men's Old Spice deodorant. It smells really good. And you know, biologically female chemistry. There's something about it. So just tip out there people.Hilary 75:33Just a tip.Courtney 75:34Just a tip I smell fabulous because I will use men's deodorant. Yeah,Kanani 75:38so that's why the meat counter guy loved you. Hilary 75:40Oh my God. Kanani 75:41It is your fault ................
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