Thatwitchlife.com



Episode 46: Witches in Fiction with Zoraida CórdovaWed, 8/19 9:00PM ? 1:11:02SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, books, wrote, witchcraft, magic, vampires, read, yarrow, witches, called, witch, fiction, create, story, charmed, feel, brooklyn, gave, podcast, star warsSPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Screaming Goat, ZoriadaIntro music 00:0320 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world, following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a witch in today's world.Courtney 00:48Hey, witches. Welcome back. This is that witch life podcast. I'm Courtney and I am your host today I am joined by HilaryHilary 00:56hello Courtney 00:57and KananiKanani 00:59HelloCourtney 01:00I am we've got quite a full show today. Hillary is going to be giving us a lowdown on using Yarrow in your magic. We have a listener question about a very intense experience with a psychic reader and a very special guest, Zoraida Córdova author of the Brooklyn Brujas series who'll be talking to us about witches in fiction. Now, as a fiction writer myself, I know there are a lot of witches who also write in really love fiction. This is exciting. And we've had a lot of authors. We've never had a fiction author on our show, or at least not somebody who their main thing is fiction so I super excited Yeah, me too. Oh, yeah, y'all are gonna love her. You're gonna be mad that I didn't let either one of you host today but there's a reason why I threw down and said I was doing it. So typically when either Hillary or I host Kanani does a movie review and that is not happening today. We will explain why... so I turned To my co hosts, how's everyone doing Kanani? How are you doing?Kanani 02:06God? Do we have to start with me?Courtney 02:09We could start with Hillary if he even really wantKanani 02:12Yeah, lets start thereHilary 02:14I'm good. I What have I been doing? Um, I have been trying to figure out what to do with all the zucchini that my garden is making. Actually, it's okay. Like, it's I it's now it's, it's laying in about two at a time. So I'm like, I can deal with this. But at the beginning, I was like, Oh, no, like, I'm so screwed. I'm going to have more than I can deal with. So and then of course, everyone I know is in the same boat. So. So getting creative with zucchini, and I have been doing some What else have I been doing? I've been working on a little bit of music and have been I mean, Yeah like working.... I feel like I have less updates because I'm pretty much busy throughout the day today I was down in Champoeg State Park for social distance walk with a co worker which was nice the dogs were thrilled to get out and the and have something to do so that was perfect but yeah you know the usual like tending to the garden which is getting I'm going to I overestimated or maybe underestimated how many tomatoes I might produce in my garden so I'm ready for the tomato onslaught they're not there yet but it's gonna happen. And I say I just played into the garden and and getting excited to see some of the herbs grow up because I'm starting to be able to harvest them so I can dry them for herbs for cooking use, but also for magical youth. So that's exciting. That's what I'm doing.Courtney 03:51Well you know, I've been thinking about you Hillary because as I continue to battle my weeds, I have envious of all the the abundance that you are having at this very The early harvest time of the year, the zuccini moonHilary 04:04I am definitely getting weeds also, let's just put that out there. I had there was a tree of heaven and I think it's what they're called, which is a very invasive tree here that was here at one point and it likes to like, like, pop up little mini asshole trees all over my yard. So I've been pulling weeds so Courtney 04:23mini asshole trees hahahaHilary 04:26It sucks because are actually really beautiful trees, but they are like, grow overnight. Like it's like there'll be nothing and the next day, it's like, very tall and you're like what? And they never go away. Like we cut the tree down and it's sprouting new trees out of the old trunk. I mean, it's just like, oh my god, it's such a nightmare. Little asshole trees all over my yard. Oh,Courtney 04:48Oh my God. Kanani 04:49If i were a tree, that would be me.Hilary 04:50That is what it's like to be your friend.Courtney 04:54Did you find your plant ally, Kanani? Is the asshole tree is at your plant ally now?Kanani 05:00The asshole tree... that would be meHilary 05:02my god, maybe I should have used this magically because this motherfucker won't go away so clearly it can be used for resilience.Courtney 05:12Yeah, well, um, I just came back from Detroit like I was I had the opportunity to go camping which was social distance just myself and my husband at the site stayed away from the other campers being super safe. But as it turns out, I have a role in other people's lives that aside from being a podcasting, witch, I am also the aunt with a really scary ghost stories. Hilary 05:37That's unsurprising.Courtney 05:39I know, right, I was like, This is the plot twist that everybody saw coming. And I actually managed to scare a 13 year old boy so badly he couldn't sleep. And that wasn't even my scariest story like the one of the young women that was there. She was begging me to tell my really scary stories. And I said, No, and her mother's looking at me saying Thank you. But I told my medium scary story, which I think I'm going to record and release on Patreon. It's one that comes from the Coastal Carolina region that my grandmother told me. And of course, you know, it's one of those that everyone swears is true. A lot of local legends and then also, she has a special connection to a manifestation of this ghost that appeared to a friend of hers in a very, very unsettling way. So I'm thinking I'm going to record that and release that on Patreon. For people who would like to hear the story of Alice Flag and the Missing Ring. And now, let's turn to Kennedy Kennedy. What's going on with you these days?Kanani 06:38Oh, man. So, um, I had spoken about how the last weekend we had been camping for Lunasa, which was really great. And Awesome. Well, we came back and my kiddos were very tired, which is not unusual for camping. And I just chalked it up to that. And later in the evening, my daughter came to use our bathroom because for whatever reason they always use the master bathroom in the middle of the night and said "mom I'm hot" and I thought, Okay, and so I got up and I checked her temperature and she had a very small fever 99 degrees and I'm like, well, that's not great. And I said, let me give you some Tylenol. I gave her some Tylenol, I put her to bed and checked on her about 15 minutes later, I took her temp again, it was 101. And I thought, well, this is not great. And she slept through the night and woke up with no fever and never needed Tylenol again. Never had a fever again. I told my husband that morning I was gonna go take my daughter to get tested and I drove her to the nearby city test. sight. And since I was with her I got a test as well. And we got tested for COVID. We found out 24 hours later that my test was negative and hers was positive. So, that is why even though I'm the one that plans the Detroit lake campout we were not there. We if I sound funny, I'm wearing a mask, I have to wear a mask even at home. My daughter is still considered to be in her contagious phase. By the time this airs, she will be out of her contagious phase which will be amazing and we won't be having to wear masks in the house anymore. But for 10 days post her test result we all have to wear masks in the house. We are sleeping in separate rooms. My daughter is quarantined to one of the rooms and I also try and on the days that it's not too hot. Luckily has been, most days. Luckily, we've had very mild weather through this. She spends the day on our patio because she can be out there without a mask and play and bring her laptop and our tablet and all those things. And it's been really, really hard.Hilary 09:19Yeah, I can't even imagine that's like well, and to have like, I mean, thankfully just one have it, but also that's hard because it's like, managing that with people that are negative is gotta be really, really challenging.Kanani 09:33It's you know, it's she's done. She definitely has some more um, she's, she's a kid, right? She's a little and so and on top of that, I think she has some of my you know, previous kind of codependency tendencies. She really loves being around with family and, you know, we're never like watching TV together. We're snuggled up on the couch together. We're on top of each other. They're like we're a very cozy Huggy cuddly family. And so the fact that she's literally kind of been quarantined, in some ways, I think has been kind of good for her because it shows her that she can do it and she's okay. Um, and she like Facebook messages me and videos me and we chat. And we prefer I think one of the reasons she likes being out on the patio is because I can see her through the door and she can see me and we're kind of together even though we're not together. And it's just been impossibly difficult. It's it's been so hard to not be able to be together. That's the reason why I didn't watch the movie I was supposed to and I will review Everafter. But that is a movie I wanted to watch with her and I can't. I'm not gonna cry.Courtney 10:51It's okay if you do cry. And I think I think it's also people may not people may not realize how young she is. Kanani 10:59She's 9, she's 9 and a half. Courtney 11:00She's nine. Yeah, so it's a nine year old little girl has to stay away from her family for the next 10 days.Kanani 11:07That's really hard Right now we are at the time that this airs will have been two days past and so we'll we'll be past this but at the time we are now it's been a week. Um,Courtney 11:21listeners just FYI I did order Kanani some doordash Dairy Queen, which may arrive during the recording time. I'm very excited about that. Yeah. So there may be an interruption where either she has to go to the door or if they call me we have to then let her husband know to let the Dairy Queen guy up.Kanani 11:43my husband will probably bring it in while we're recording which will be pretty funny and I'll let you know but I don't know if yesterday was the worst. Because we because they the boys had gone my husband and my son went yesterday to get tested and I just kind of started spiraling because I was waiting for if one of them pops positive, it has to start the quarantine all over again. And then you know what if one of them doesn't have, you know, luckily for us, she had a couple days of not feeling well, and then she's felt fine. So her biggest issue right now is boredom. So I can imagine enduring the stress and everything that we're enduring. If she were also actively sick, and having to care for her. I don't know how I could emotionally like, that would be so difficult. And so I was yesterday was a really, really rough day. And then I woke up today, and I was just like, thinking to myself, I just don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do the podcast. I don't know what's gonna happen. We get the test results, and then I was explaining to Hillary, the way it works is if you when you test negative, they send you an email that says, hey, you got a negative result. If you test positive, they call you. So when it happened with my daughter, and I got an email around 1230 that said, Hey, you got your test result back, you're negative. We waited. And we waited. We waited, and I never got an email from my daughter. And then all of a sudden, three hours later, I get a random phone call. And I'm like, Oh, God. And so that was them saying, Hey, we just want to let you know she's positive. Well, my husband this morning, got a negative email at like nine o'clock in the morning. So the hours went by. And so we've spent pretty much all day waiting for the phone call. just assuming my son is positive. And so we've just been trying to prepare for that and just get our minds around that and what are we going to do and, and then randomly when I was talking to Courtney, and I was in my email, I get a thing that pops up that says you have a new message, and it was a negative for my son, which was amazing. And wonderfulHilary 14:02Oh, amazing. I'm so glad because I was also like, Oh, no, if they have to start overKanani 14:07Right now. We were we literally spent six hours today waiting for a phone call, like, you know, thinking, you know, okay, they're gonna call because otherwise we would have gotten an email by now. So luckily they have tested negative now. And so it's just been, I've never been through anything like this and it's so stressful because they're just literally nothing you can do. And there's so much of it that just involves waiting. Like the worst was when she was sick. And they follow up with you after day six because they say if someone's sick, if they take a turn, it's usually on day five or six. So I spent the first you know, six days just holding my breath thinking you know, she seems fine. But is all of a sudden, she's not going to be fine and have to be in a hospital? And so after the weekend, I kind of calmed down and then we needed to get the boys tested. And then now we've gotten that so it's like I woke up probably a three out of 10. And now I think I'm probably like a six out of 10. So I'm feeling better, because I just have that makes me feel better. My daughter still acts fine and seems to be fine. So she seems to have had a very mild case, which is very reassuring. But this has been so emotionally draining and exhausting. And I just have to say, you know, as silly as it sounds, you know, I spent three months not working. It kind of was crazy. When we found all this out. I was just being brought back to my job. So as much of a blessing as that was, it was also incredible. stressful because I'm just now learning that my child has this and I have to try and put my work brain back in my head.Hilary 16:06Oh my gosh, that's so muchKanani 16:06it was so helpful that we have this Patreon now, because we have some Patreon subscribers who are helping us and supporting the podcast and allowing us to try and keep doing this and not have to pay for everything out of our own pocket. And so it was so nice to actually start having a little bit of what we've invested into this start coming back to us because it was like one of the most needed times andHilary 16:36yeah, I mean it came at such an important time.Kanani 16:38It's just it's it's so helpful and I can't thank people enough for supporting the podcast and and being Patreon subscribers. Courtney 16:45Like there will be food and ice cream in your house. We're not going to let you go hungry.Kanani 16:51So I just I mean the kindness that people have shown me and it's it's really helped to make a really dreary situation feel more manageable and I just can't thank I can't thank people enough for that.Hilary 17:07Good. I'm glad you reported. That's really importantCourtney 17:11because the truth is, is that people actually do like you. ShowHilary 17:16Shocker! You havne't ruined everyone's dreams yet. Courtney 17:19you've you've tried to chase everyone away, but you've been wildly unsuccessful.Kanani 17:24Again, you're calling me a failure. You're kicking me while I'm down. You're calling me a failure.Screaming Goat 17:29AHHHHHHHHCourtney 17:33You found the goat. Kanani 17:35But I knew I'd been. I want to. I want to thank everyone because this podcast has meant so much to, to me. And we've been doing it for, you know, almost a year and a half now. Yeah. And I just, you know, if it weren't for supporters, we couldn't keep doing it. So I just I want to thank everybody because it's your support that allows us to do thisHilary 17:57Yeah, I'm so grateful for our listeners. And our Patreon subscribers and everyone and all of our guests who have been like so, so generous with their time and also help support us. It's been really amazing.Courtney 18:10Yeah. And you know, along that note, if I sound like I'm not screaming into a laptop mic anymore, it's because I am no longer screaming into a laptop. Because Because of our supporters from Patreon and Ko-fi, I was able to get a real live podcast recording like this week.Hilary 18:28Yeah!!!Courtney 18:30yeah, so that's, that's something we we definitely want to thank people for and it's also been a really great outlet to be able to share the bonus content that we can't always fit into an episode like this story with Nani knitting in the graveyard. Oh my god, like Oh, that was like it was so juicy. We were all in Thrall. But it was the kind of thing we couldn't fit in because it wasn't explicitly on topic and we only have so much time we can put in this podcast. So that is something we were able to release On the Patreon page, so if you are one of our patrons, um, definitely get over there and check it out and hear about Nani how they connect with spirits in the graveyard through fiber arts and also just you know other works of service in the graveyard. Also for everybody who signs up, we have extended our invitation to anyone who becomes a patron between now and the end of August to join us for a live ritual on August 30. And that is available to patrons of all levels starting at $1 and up this ritual as well as our our bonus content. And as always, if Patreon subscription is more than you can do, I know monthly charges can be a lot. You can also buy us a coffee it's a one time thing or pick up some of our handmade Etsy merchandise. I am now sending out while Kanani is in quarantine. Which means they are not quite as prompt as they once were. We're but once she's out of quarantine, she'll be taking it back over. But that's a couple of ways people to support the show. And you know, we can't thank you enough especially right now when we do have one of our podcast hosts is in need. So thank you all. So switching gears of Hillary we wanted, you wanted to tell us a bit about the use of the herb Yarrow in magic and witchcraft.Hilary 20:23Yes. So I love Yarrow. Yarrow is genuinely one of my favorite herbs to use magically, it's also very easy to grow. It's not a super finicky plant if you just give it water and it gets some, actually doesn't love direct sunlight but gets light and water and you take care of it. And it's not super high maintenance and it grows really well and it can be used for many different things. So it is known kind of for like three facets more than anything else, in my opinion or four facets, I guess is like courage and confidence boosting protection, enhancing psychic abilities and and love or friendship. So there's a lot of different ways you can use it. So if you're looking to boost your self esteem like if you're feeling a little like your confidence is taking a little hit and you're going into a situation where you're like oh man i'm not feeling it. Carrying a little bit of Yarrow with you and like a pouch or, you know, putting it in your pocket or in your purse or whatever you have on you will help helps with confidence. It brings in really like strong, like positive, happy, confident energy. And so I've used it in a number of spells. I've used it in incense before during a spell during a spell or during a ritual. I've put it in spell jars before I've carried it with me. For protection, you can put above your door and to protect just for general protection, if you're looking to boost love in your relationship or marriage, you could put it over your bed to kind of bring some like really happy love connectivity and you can also use it for friendships so like if you're you know, if you're feeling like disconnected from a friend you can always it just brings that nice like comforting kind of like connected energy. For dreams, similar to other herbs if you put it under your pillow, again, similar to we talked about, we've talked about with actually multiple herbs, herbs but you can put it on your under your pillow to to boost psychic dreams. So if you're someone that gets a lot of information in dreams, it can be a good herb to put under your pillow to get clarity so like if you're finding you're getting stuff but it's not very clear or you need more information, it can be good to put them to your pillow but You can use it in so many different ways. Yeah, I've put it in an incense blend before. I've put it in spell jars. I've carried it on me. I've put it I've put it on my altar. I have not put it over my door but I do know people that do put it over their door. So there's lots of ways to use it. And, and yeah, again, it's like pretty easy to grow. It's also really pretty, it looks like the leaves look like feathers. It's very feathery. And it has it flowers these really pretty with like little clusters of white blossoms. They're really pretty. It's a great herb An old English custom that was used with Yarrow it was for a girl to pluck Yarrow from a young man's grave and sleep with it under her pillow and in her dreams her future husband would appear.Courtney 23:45Ooh,Hilary 23:46I think that it's I've heard I've heard many people and I have had success in using it in helping reconnect with people that I feel I've been distanced from because it is this like kind of happy you know, like come together, I don't know, you know, I, I've just found that like I've used it in spells when or in, in rituals when trying to like, just to like reconnect. Because I mean, again, I feel like as we've talked about with love spells, quote unquote, many times, like you can't create something out of nothing. But you know, if you feel like you just need a little energy boost or you want to keep the love alive, you know, having over your bed is a great way to do that.Courtney 24:24Kanani I think maybe some bouquets of Yarrow in your house either during this quarantine time, especially afterward when you're trying to put this awful energy behind you all this might be a really good way to do it.Kanani 24:37I was thinking that same thing I was thinking that actually would probably be really good to have after all this is over.Hilary 24:43You could even smoke cleanse with Yarrow in your house.Courtney 24:46That's a good plan. I think I think that that may be a really good herb for so many of us right now when you know some of us are not feeling the extreme kind of separation that Kanani's feeling but, you know, there's isn't anybody that's not impacted by this. So yarrow could be the herb of 2020. All right, well, thanks Hillary. That's that's really helpful and very timely, I should say. So let's turn to our listener question. So, this listener said, back in December, I had a group reading from a psychic and during my portion of the reading she said I was the, quote, mother Gaia incarnate and quote, how would you interpret that? I have a deep connection with green magic. Could she have been referring to that? Or do you think feel she meant it literally. Also, she said I had strong psychic ability. I feel this is true, and regularly have psychic visions or experiences but one I struggled to interpret them and to don't know how to develop or strengthen this ability. What would you all recommend? Oh, boy. What do we think guys? Hilary 25:51Okay I haven't some thoughts. I mean, my guess if someone said that to me, I would assume again, I can't speak for this. person, but I would assume that what they meant is they were tapping into like that green magic energy, right? Or that Green witch energy. I mean, I don't know how I mean, that seems like a weird thing to say in a literal sense. Like, I don't I don't think in my opinion, I don't think anyone person.... like Gaia Mother Earth is like, it's not Yeah, that I don't think that I don't think that could literally be contained by a single human in my opinion. Um, however, I bet that when, when she said or when this when the psychic said this that it was it was again really feeling that strong earth energy, that strong connection to earth and green magic, and that that is probably where that statement was coming from. So if that were me, if I got that I would go, Hey, this is a key for me to really use look deeply into what green magic is like or plant magic is like right? or forest magick, natural working with the elements magic like that. I would deep dive into that. Because you might find in that deep dive that there's something that sticks out they go that feels like really right for you. And then you can kind of follow that. That trajectory.Courtney 27:24Yeah, I agree with with your assessment of what the psychic meant by the mother Gaia incarnate for those who are not familiar Gaia was a term that the ancient Greeks used for the planet Earth. And that has been adopted by a lot of traditions as being synonymous with like a mother goddess goddess figure. Where I would caution this listener is against group psychic readings. Those very easily move into a performative aspect and you end up getting a lot of those cuts. Have readings where they're like somebody who's picking up on the fact that you're psychic and all of a sudden you are the next Buddha. And it's like well, no no, that's that's that's something that is I think this person was probably being a little dramatic. And I say that kindly because I really don't like these kind of psychic readings um, but I would take all of that with a grain of salt and I don't think that you need to be concerned about what it means to be mother Gaia incarnate except that I think this person got a little carried away but I it's probably is a sign to you know, explore more about your abilities with plant magic and explore more your abilities with psychic phenomenon now, you also asked about psychic visions or experiences again, really broad topic. We talked about this a couple episodes ago with Paige Vanderbeck the fat feminist which about like how to start interpreting them. We also touched on a little bit with Nani last week. So the best thing to do, we would have been, I always recommend, like taking note of things that have happened, and start looking for patterns, especially if you do have this kind of green magic, you may start to notice more signs among the plant world or the animal world, you may be able to start developing a language with a spirits through that way. So I would recommend you, you know, just pay more, be mindful and pay attention and understand this as a journey. You don't need to master the skill right now. I mean, I've been deep in the craft since I was like 16 years old, and I am still figuring it all out as I go. Kanani 29:39Just keep you know, doing what you're doing and learning about what you're learning about. And, you know, if you're curious about things, maybe get a more specific one on one reading with someone that you that you trust, but I mean, it sounds like a good plan. Good idea you're doing you're doing all the right steps. You're taking all the right you know, moves. So just Keep doing what you're doing and, and I would always caution someone to be skeptical with any reading, even if you think, you know, that's the best reading I've ever had it hit me perfectly. You still need to look at it with a certain level of skepticism and open mindedness and you know, and not necessarily just get excited because they told you what you wanted to hear or whatnot. So because I think we all have a tendency to do that.Hilary 30:25Also, speaking of Paige Vanderbeck, she has a book on green witchcraft. So, you check out her book called Green Witchcraft, it could be a really good resource. And then also recently, we spoke with Christopher Penczak, who wrote The Plant Spirit Familiar, also a great book on developing a relationship with plants in magic. Really good. I mean, I I learned a lot from him just being like, Oh my god, I didn't think of it like that, you know. So, um, those are some good resources. There are many out there more as well, but just some recent more recent guests. They have Great stuff out there.Courtney 31:01So I'm super excited to welcome our special guest today is Zoraida Córdova who is the author of many fantasy novels, including the award-winning Brooklyn Brujas series, Incendiary, Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge: A Crash of Fate, and The Way to Rio Luna. Her short fiction has appeared in the New York Times bestselling anthology Star Wars: From a Certain Point of View, Star Wars: Clone Wars Stories of Light and Dark, and Come On In. She is the co-editor of Vampires Never Get Old. She is the co-host of the writing podcast, Deadline City, with Dhonielle Clayton. Zoraida was born in Guayaquil, Ecuador and raised in Queens, New York. When she’s not working on her next novel, she’s finding a new adventure..Zoraida thank you so much for being on today. This is so exciting for us. Hilary 31:51WE are very excited to have you on.Zoriada 31:53Thank you so much for having me. This is great. I love talking about witches and witchcraft and writing witches. So it's all Fun. We have a lot in common then, we already have so much in common.Courtney 32:07Yeah, you know I just as soon as I listed all these books I just felt Kanani going to Amazon and clicking especially since she has even more time to read now. So we should confess that Yeah, the Patreon did buy me a new microphone and we'll cover her doordash fees but what it honestly ends up covering is all the books we buy that are written by our guests.Zoriada 32:27I'm also on August 14, August 14 Labyrinth Loss is going on like a Kindle 1.99 sale so if you haven't gotten that yet like it's gonna be on Super sale for like a week as a third book comes out September 1. So they're I guess they're doing like a two week price promo, which will mean match by all of the digital retailers because they, as soon as Amazon put something on sale, everyone else is like, well, we're going to put it on sale too. So you know, they try to match it. Courtney 32:56That is fantastic. Okay, y'all, y'all know what you're doing now for the last time Couple weeks of August.Hilary 33:01I know like we don't have other things to do so read that book yet.Courtney 33:08Yes, this is actually the first time we have had a fiction writer whose primary work is in fiction on our show. And so this is great because as we were talking about earlier how many witches are really into fiction and how many people even if they don't identify as witches love reading about them, so it's really a perfect match. So Zoraida, question do you identify as a witch yourself? There is no wrong answer. If it's no you can still stay on the podcast but you know, do you identify as a witch? Thank youZoriada 33:35I think I do. And I've been thinking about this since I was 10 years old. I have I have a diary entry from my my you know, my diary was covered in Spice Girls lollipop stickers. I'm 33. So that was my that was my that was my you know my coming of age right though. The Spice Girls Big in 1999 Yes. And so I remember reading rereading my journals because the young adult industry like we like to have events where we read our, our teenage diaries for, I guess, like self flagellation and embarrassment, public shame. So I found this diary entry where it literally said, I've decided to change my religion from Catholicism to witchcraft, but I can't tell my mom and I was 10 years old. And it's hilarious because that was the so the way that I came to this is I you know, I was raised Catholic. I'm from Ecuador. So our primary religion is is is Catholicism. And I was baptized like the day that I was born because my dad didn't my dad was fighting with my mom's family on what I should be named. So because they had me baptized, they were like, Oh, you can't change her name because she was baptized. Now. And that's just how it works in Ecuador apparently. And and so I've basically like been culturally Catholic my whole life but then as soon as I discovered I discovered Wicca first through, you know, Silver Ravenwolf books, which her books which shed like these teen teen how to books on witchcraft. Teen Witch and How to Ride a Silver Broomstick And I had all of those and so I would go to the garage sales because I guess somebody in my neighborhood must have been like Wicca once or at least had a teenage Teenage Witch in their house because those I would go to this house and they would always have these books for sale. So it's just meant to be right and and I just I never really, I love the the ritual of Catholicism. And I love a lot of I love saints and you don't have to separate Catholicism Some from witchcraft like you could be a Catholic, which if you want, but I just had never really identified with the patriarchy of at all. And so the older I got, you know, I did my first communion and then I refused to do my confirmation. And that's really where I diverged. And as I got older, I stopped really practicing anything, but I like making I still keep I still keep an altar and I travel with a little altar all the time. No matter where I go, I just have like my stones and my my Palo Santo and I have a lot of I collect a lot of st cards from family funerals and things like that, that have that from I haven't lost a lot of people in my family, but the ones that I have, I do keep and I put I keep those with me and my little travel altar. So it's my relationship is always tenuous, because I fluctuate between, I believe in nothing. And then and then I believe in Poseidon so it's just weirdCourtney 37:07Well, you know, the mermaid parade in New York City is is literally a procession in honor of Poseidon like they literally make an offering to Poseidon there on Coney Island, which, and you get a lot of people there who might identify as Catholic or don't believe in anything at all. Or they also say that they're witches and everybody is dumping fruit into the ocean for Poseidon. SoZoriada 37:28absolutely, actually, in my very first novel was because of them I wrote it's called The Vicious Deep and it's out of print now and not available anymore. But I wrote it when I was 19 years old, because I used to hang out in Coney Island all summer every day. And I was like, Well, why did why does why the mermaid parade. And so I had this idea that like what if mermaids returned to Coney Island once every 50 years? And so that was the inception for my novel, and I wrote this whole series on that Because of the mermaid paradeCourtney 38:02I am going to find that book because I marched in that damn parade every summer there's no i think i there's a chance I might have been marching while you were out there with with that novel in mind, so I swear to God, I'm out there if you ever saw a sea witch walked by with purple hair, that was me.Zoriada 38:21I have a lot of pictures to go through them.Hilary 38:25If you find one of Courtney, please send it to us.Courtney 38:29Hillary it's not hard to find her all over my goddamn Facebook page.Hilary 38:32I know but someone else's picture is going to be better than the pictures you pose in, ok? I want B Roll evidenceCourtney 38:44Oh, god. Oh my god. Well, this it's um, I feel like your story your story one, really mirrors mine quite a bit. But then second, like with, you know, between finding like the loving the ritual of Catholicism but also having a problem with the institution and that is so common I have found and there has been, like a real. I wouldn't call it a revolution because saints like you said witchcraft and Catholicism have been secret lovers for centuries. But I feel like at least in the the modern Neo pagan or modern witchcraft movement, there has been a real re-embrace of using the saints and just acknowledging, saying, I've got I've got some cross connections here and I'm doing that and I found people that didn't grow up Catholic or didn't grow up religious at all, are turning to the saints.Zoriada 39:34Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting because I think that in Latin America, even if you consider I feel like even the women who consider themselves Brujas they have a deep tie to Christianity, right? They they seem to leave it like it is that God and God and they have that that beautiful relationship with with God. And so when I wrote the Brooklyn Brujas I Thought I wanted to create my own Pantheon. So it was a little bit of a mix between the Greek gods, the card game and and just what I ended like like anthropomorphizing emotion into deities. And that's how it started. Like, I started thinking, What does what does a? What is a religious Bruja look like in, in Brooklyn with like a Latin American background? How does that work? Because I think I think about belief. Belief is one of the pillars of society. And so when I create fantasy novels, I think about what that society and different groups within subsets of that society, what they how they believe, how they worship, how they practice, how that affects the day to day, and that's really a big part of world building. So I think about that all the time. I this is like something that consumes all of my novels all the time.Courtney 40:59So, for those who are not have not yet read the Brooklyn Brujas series, and I'm sure all listeners are all downloading to kindle immediately as I speak. But this series follows three sisters who are witches. And as they develop their powers, and they battle magic in their hometown of Brooklyn and the worlds beyond, and each book follows a different sister. So could you tell us more about you? You're talking about the world building and the pillars of belief? Could you tell us more about the magic of these three sisters? And what inspired you to create that magic?Zoriada 41:32Yeah, so I was originally inspired by...I want to write a Latina version of charmed because I love you know, I love charmed. I love Buffy I love all of those supernatural shows and those like, you know, web 11. In the early the late 90s. Were very formative to me. But when I watched charmed, they sort of just took symbols from Celtic mythology and called it witchcraft, right, and then they added all these special effects. And that's not the same thing right? the conflation of that and sort of the the witchcraft you see I don't know if you guys have covered Sabrina or what your feelings are in the new rebooted Sabrina ourCourtney 42:22did we did we do... Kanani did you review Sabrina yet?Kanani 42:26I have not I have not done that but I can tell you I came about charmed about two decades later. I started watching it about five or four years ago but I I'm I'm I'm hooked I love it. I'm obsessed with it. I don't know if I would have been as obsessed with it then but I hundred percent you I think you and I were reading the same books I'm pretty sure you and I both read goosebumps right?Zoriada 42:50Yeah, definitely. I yeah. I read these books called out In The Forests of the Night by Amelie Atwater-Rhodes. I was you know, I've Always, I started reading teen fiction as a teen. And then I wanted to write teen fiction as a teen and then I just sort of never aged out of it. Courtney 43:13But I want to come back to the question about the the magic of within, within the sisters so you're talking about how you you wanted something that was broader than just the Celtic mysticism which I think you're right. And then a lot of people don't it's a whole other topic about like Celtic being a very broad term. And a lot of people don't necessarily like especially Hollywood producers don't necessarily understand that and just kind of lump anything that kind of has a flute in there as Oh, that's Yeah. But you know, being able to, to branch out in this incredibly rich world of, of magic and traditions of witchcraft in, in Latin, like Latin America or other parts of the Spanish speaking world. So tell us more about the magic of these sisters. Yes. So once I've watched you know, I always think about how The shows that I watch use, they just take sort of take symbols and use them like willy nilly with no cultural contexts. And I think that when it comes to creating a magical system, there has to be cultural context because everybody practices in different ways. So in order for me to create the brujeria, the magic of the Brooklyn brew house series, I had to think about where do my wishes come from. And so my wishes, obviously, if they're part of their part, Puerto Rican part, Ecuadorian, and just I want to sort of create sort of like a pan Latin family. And so they that you can't talk about Latin America without acknowledging the slaves that were brought over to Latin America, the indigenous people that were already there, and then the Catholicism that was all brought in. And so all of that creates so many different kinds of beliefs. And you see it in the music you see it in the way that people use certain Gods specifically in Santaria. And so when when I was I sort of did anti research or like counter research for my books because I didn't want to include anything that was already pre existing in Santeria or the Day of the Dead. I basically like took my own took the the idea of a Pantheon with two parent gods and then their children and then I gave them I gave them each personalities like the Greek gods but I gave the naming convention comes from Spanish words. And then I created textbooks within the world of the Brooklyn Brujas has so they have like a book of spells their book of spells is called the book of cantos which canto means to sing. And so it's sort of like every time that they're doing A spell it's like they're singing to their to their gods. And other than that the imagery is is all very Latin like in my house we have a lot of plants and roosters like rooster imagery is really important and the things that we say about luck, all of that sort of made it in. But I very much tried to create my own my my own I created my own gods and I created my own spells. And I also created my own monsters which were based on on the the scary stories that my grandmother would tell me as a kid. Oh, the best stories. The best ones I know that my favorite ghost stories, the ones my cousin told me those the ones that still scare me when I repeat them. Was there a moment in which you were really sitting like I want to write about witches or was it something that just kind of came organically?Zoriada 46:56No, I think that I've always I always had this story in me, you know, Labyrinth Loss is a story of a girl who wants to get rid of her power... she has the power of all the gods. And also all of my witches are given there they're born with like the the power of certain gods and, and some are stronger than others because some people are more talented than others. So just works at that selection. But she's sort of ashamed of it. And so it's become this metaphor for like for her culture without, you know, trying to without being like, Hey, your culture is magic.Courtney 47:36But I feel like that's such a I feel like that's such a true story because, um, you know, as I've gone through witchcraft, I found a lot of people that come from these very deep, rich witchcraft traditions. And there's, there's sometimes they, they throw them aside or they just they don't, or they start looking for, you know, something from a different tradition because they think oh, I should be studying something that's, quote unquote Celtic, when it's, it's, you know, they they may actually have an entire lineage of witchcraft in their family that they're either ignoring or just because of cultural prejudice and racism that they have been, you know, they've been tamping down. So I feel like that's, it's so it's so real, what your character is going through.Zoriada 48:24Yeah. And I think that I, having the system, the system of sisters was really important for me, because you can see how people come to certain religious beliefs in so many different ways. It doesn't have to, like not everybody is going to have the same approach to this belief system. And so that was really important for me to show that like, even if we come from that list, we're all in the same household, but we, we believe in different ways, and that's okay. We all find ourselves to it to whatever we need in our own terms.Courtney 49:00Do all these sisters have similar abilities? I know what you said at least one of the sisters is the whole premise is that she in trying to get rid of her her her magic she ends up you know opening essentially what is like an onslaught of of so much magic she doesn't know what to do with it. So is is what are the other sets the other two sisters what is their relationship like with magicZoriada 49:23so the the Labarynth Lost about the the middle sister as sisters, the oldest sister is gets the second book Burja Born and she she has a very deep connection to her magic. And she's a healer but after the events of book one, she sort of lost her way and she needs to find the spark of her magic again. And so she accidentally unleashes a zombie invasion that is tied to her in Brooklyn. So she is that one so Set in New York in New York. And in Book Three, it's the youngest sister who's 15. She has always been very confident with her magical ability. So for her, it's not so much that she needs to find out who she is or embrace her power. It's more she needs to fix things because her two sisters her two older sisters have messed everything up. So she's like, I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna make things right. Because I had this new ability and it's awesome and I'm awesome. And then she Oh, she like her overconfidence is sort of what leads her astray and sort of causes it causes a you know, shenanigans. Courtney 50:44Amazing shenanigans. I love it. Cuz so you also have a whole series on vampires, which is another another topic that goes through through cycles and it's a vampires have enjoyed popularity for quite a while. I don't. I don't think that it's really waning as much as it I think that the witches the interest of witchcraft is catching up pretty quickly. So tell us about your vampire series. Zoriada 51:05So the Vampires Never Get Old is an anthology that my friend Natalie Parker, and I came up with. A year ago, two years ago, we were floating in a pool, we had a writer, a writing a writer's retreat, and we were in a pool in the Alabama Gulf shore, and which I had never been to before. So we were I just said something I definitely had. I was in my cups. I had, like, I don't know, a bottle of champagne or wine or something. And I said, You know what, I miss?... vampires. And then all of a sudden, like, all the other authors who were in the pool with us were like, yeah, vampires, because we were talking about how sort of trends come and go. But vampires have always even though the publishers don't know what to do with it anymore. They're still people who want to read about them. It's just the books are not available in the traditional space in the same way that they used to be in 2005 when Twilight came out, but you know, 15 years later, everything's so cyclical. We have a new Twilight book out this month right August 2020. And so we came up with, I said we should call it vampires never get old and we came up with an idea we came up with a list of authors that we would we would ask to contribute stories and you know, we so we have a Victoria Schwab who wrote A Darker Shade of Magic. We have my my business partner and fellow podcaster Donielle Clayton, she wrote she wrote us a vampire short story as well. I don't know if you've seen the movie Dumplin on on Netflix, but that Hilary 52:50yes, I love that movie. Courtney 52:52Love that movieZoriada 52:53So the author Julie Murphy, she also she's writing a fat Vampire Slayer who is an High School obviously is basically like a Fat Buffy.Hilary 53:01Yes I love that so muchZoriada 53:03She wrote a cheerleader, a fat cheerleader who's a vampire slayer and living in Texas. Hilary 53:08Awesome. Zoriada 53:09Her name is Jolene. And so she's very, you know, cute like short story about like, her thought process unlike coming to come in contact with with a vampire on a school field trip. It's it's really fun. It's it's a mix of really dark stories and a mix of really fun poppy stories which mix that like that Joss Whedon humor and also that like Anne Rice, traditional darkness. So we have a good combination of everything that comes out September 22. And we're so excited because we've gotten such good reception from our viewers so far. And we're, we're, we're doing a lot of we're doing a lot of good things with with this Anthology, I thinkKanani 53:58so since I wasn't able to give a review a movie review previously. I'm going to use this time to piss everyone off. My friends made me come to her house to watch Twilight. I would not talk to her for three days. I was so angryHilary 54:19Why do you hate everything?Kanani 54:20was so angry. I just kept saying, I want these two hours of my life back. I want them back. I was so mad at her and she loved it. She ate it up. She'd read all the books. She loved the movie. I was so angry. I would not talk to her for three days.Courtney 54:40So, here's a big question. Which movie did you hate more? Twilight or The Wicker Man?Kanani 54:47Well, The Wicker Man gave me nightmares because someone was burned alive. That was far worse because I actually gave it actually gave me nightmares. Hilary 55:01Oh my God Kanani 55:03The Wickerman will always be ther worst...my husband is still angry with you for making us watch. Hilary 55:07Why? Why aren't you like this? Like, literally Why? Stop shitting on everybody's dreams, okay?Kanani 55:19If you like the movie Twilight then you had it coming, that's all I'm gonna say.Zoriada 55:25I mean, the author of Twilight did dream she did say that she had like a dream in which she saw these two people. And she wrote it and you know, like, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, but because I did read it when I was in high school and and so it, it came I sort of came of age with it in the publishing industry because it changed the way publishers buy books. And they started giving more money to certain kinds of books. And it was just like this phenomenon, but I recently rewatched the first movie and I was like, This is actually terrible. And then but the second movie has better lighting, the actors have more chemistry. I really like the second movie so much more.Kanani 56:11You had me at this movie was terrible.Zoriada 56:19My co editor Natalie Parker, and I, we have, we're sort of just dissecting the the novels from the 90s and early 2000s that came out in teen fiction and sort of shaped the way that people wrote about vampire and how like the vampire boyfriend became such a phenomenon in in in that space. And so we've been we've been going over that and in a podcast called witches like vampires never got old, the podcast. And so we've had a lot of fun dissecting that and figuring out what worked then and what does not work now. Because I have to read Midnight Sun the fifth Twilight for an article for a sci fi fan girls calm. And so I'm just like, wow, like this book could not would not be the same if it came out now but I think that the the metaphors of vampirism and witchcraft have always been part of teen fiction for a reason. Because of the marginalization, that loneliness that you feel that wanting, like a specific connection to something bigger than yourself. Those themes are always going to be in fiction in these books. And that's never going to go away. And I think that there's just going to come a point where publishers don't know how to market something after a while. But the the need for those books is always going to be there because readers, people who love witch books are always going to want to read more on witch books so it's just We just got to give it to them.Courtney 58:03And speaking out of my husband has just told me that Dairy Queen has been delivered. Yeah, maybe it will improve your attitude toward Twilight. Kanani 58:14Nothing Nothing. Don't make me not talk to you for three days I will go there. I will do it. I will sayso far to date my favorite vampire movie. Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Luke PerryZoriada 58:30oh look Perry Courtney 58:32 It was just because of Luke Perry. You just wanted to watch Luke Perry Kanani 58:36hundred percent. He's the reason and that is still that is my favorite vampire movie of all time. Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Luke Perry.Courtney 58:45You don't want to do I'm gonna get you a T shirt that you have to wear in October which is I guess aka vampire season because of Halloween and say Luke Perry is the reason for the season.Kanani 58:55I will rock that shirt. I will put it on a pillow and sleep with it. I think it's I think It's really interesting how I love the fact that instead of because it is fiction, that instead of kind of taking a faith and kind of dabbling with pieces of it, I love the fact that you created something unique on its own, so that it doesn't actually, you know, impinge or or kind of, it doesn't misrepresent or, you know, or kind of do a disservice to a faith that exists. You're not doing you're creating your own magical space, which just kind of using basic knowledge you have, but not actually utilizing any specific details of a faith so that you can be completely respectful, you know, to those faiths of which you're kind of using some ideals. I really love that. I think that's one I think it's amazing that you do that and incredibly respectful but also Man hats off to you to be so creative.Zoriada 1:00:03Thank you. I think that's really important and something that I teach a lot of writing workshops. And that's something that I try to tell the, you know, everybody who wants to write fantasy, you know, you don't have to. You don't have to cherry pick from all these different cultures and, and call it you know, that's what Buffy did. Right? Buffy just sort of they just pulled from these occult books and was like, Hello witchcraft. The hell mouth vampires but there's no there's no actual mythology. That goes you know, there's a do vampires come from hell just you know, they never answer that. And so I that's really important to me, because otherwise your world just sort of falls apart. If you pull one string as much as I loved those. Yeah,Kanani 1:00:50well, yeah, cuz, you know, with a certain pace, you have to stick with it. Yeah, you can't hear from it at all. Because otherwise people are gonna get mad. So no, that makes perfect sense.Zoriada 1:01:01Yep, absolutelyKanani 1:01:03yeah, I had two teddy bears as a child one was named Ted and one was named Teddy. So that is the limit of my creativity and in my ability to potentially create any worlds like that's just not gonna happen so when people are able to create these whole you know scenes and and i love i love that you kind of took the sisterhood and the the fun part kind of of the show charmed, but gave them that that Latinx twist. I think that that's brilliant. I think it's brilliant thing. Zoriada 1:01:38And I know that the new charm show is like there's this other supposed to be Latina sisters, but the magic is still the same, which to me was a little confusing. I mean, I'm sure it's like the show so great. But I was like, well, but you're still using Celtic magic. Like that doesn't make sense.Kanani 1:01:54As far as magical portion, in my opinion, absolutely. None of it makes sense. But And they just start creating different beings a different like, whatever it's pretty people on the TV and they're throwing things at bad guys and they explode and I think that's fun and that's that's pretty much enough. Hilary 1:02:11And it's like, it's just something to take your mind off of something that's like fun, light hearted and it's not it's like whatever you're like okay. Okay, cool.Courtney 1:02:21Charmed was my gym show when I would was in New York and I was getting up really early and working out like it like seven in the morning charmed would be on Fox, because that's what they would actually play in the gym in New York. And I would watch charmed with the bad subtitles while I was on the elliptical. So that's that's where I got my charmed background.Hilary 1:02:42That's really amazing.Courtney 1:02:45So, so slightly different geek rabbit hole, but we need to go down this one anyway. So you've written a number of books for the Star Wars franchise and a couple of those which are entitled Star Wars from a certain point of view as the spouse of a very big Star Wars geek. I would love to hear more about that. Absolutely. You know, it's funny, I'm in the there's a new anthology called Star Wars, the Clone Wars stories of light and dark. And I'm writing from the point of view of ventris, who was one of the nightsisters which is the which order of the Star Wars universe. And so I thought that was really great because they gave I was like, Yes, I want to write the Star Wars witch and, and it's a this is a pro that's a pre existing character. And I I've been very fortunate to be part of three anthologies, and one original novel and you know, Star Wars From a Certain Point of View I have actually right from the point of view of the to the Tonnika Sisters, which are the only two female presenting people in the Star Wars Cantina on Halloween when Luke Skywalker is going to be like I'm getting the hell off this planet and they're trying to find the Millennium Falcon. So the whole point of from a certain point of view is 40 stories from 40 authors celebrating 40 years of Star Wars. And we had to write from any character that was not the main three characters. So I chose these two super obscure women that nobody had really, they, nobody had really written about them before. So that was super cool and scary and I got to work with the Star Wars story group. Everybody who writes for Star Wars gets their work read by the story group in the story group is justice fountain of knowledge. They know everything about Star Wars. And and they will tell you when you get things right or wrong, and they also give you a lot of creative liberties, not creative liberties, but creative freedom, so that you whatever you're working on, it still sounds like you authentic to you as a writer. It's just you plus Star Wars. And so with that, With a short stories that's been great. I the my novel Crash of Fate is actually a tie into the theme park, galaxy's edge and on the planet Batuu and so that was, that was a weird pitch for me because when they asked me if I wanted to write, you know, a romance set in a teen romance sent on Batuu I was like, sure how much blood do you need? Like, do you need me to sign like any content? And, and so after that, they, you know, I, I gave them my pitch and my pitch was like, What if I did the movie before sunrise, like the Ethan Hawke movie before sunrise. In Star Wars, like 24 hours, two people meet and fall in love and they were like, Sure, go, you know, go ahead, take it and run. And I did and so it's you know, two best friends who like reunite on this planet and they Have to deliver a parcel and you know, Star Wars high jinks ensue. So it's been really fun. It was really stressful. But it was ultimately it was the best experience of my life because I got to go to the theme park and sort of see the world that I wrote about, literally, come to life. And I love that universe. And it's so expansive. And very, I found it very welcoming. Despite, you know, like, I know that there's like, Star Wars Twitter is really scary in some ways, but i a lot of the fans have been really great to me.Hilary 1:06:37I think that's such a cool concept to come at that from different perspectives. Like I think that's amazing. Because like, it just tells a whole other side of the story that no one would have ever even considered.Zoriada 1:06:49Mm hmm. Courtney 1:06:50It's like the kind of fanfiction out there. that so many of those wonderful characters that like I mean, I'm a kid. I'm a Character junkie, I love knowing what the characters are up to and why they do it. And so to be able to dig into that, and to see where all these these wonderful characters, it's really complex world where they're where they're all coming from and Oh, what a beautiful opportunity and so this is more more stuff for people to be adding to their list. I have to tell you on our shared dock with our show notes, it's really funny I could see the Kanani has highlighted a number of things we've talked about I just noticed because she is copy pasting for her Amazon wishlist or just add to cart. She's been caught. Kanani 1:07:33GuiltyCourtney 1:07:37Zoraida how can people follow your work?Zoriada 1:07:40Um, I am very available online. I think I spend too much time online on Instagram. I am Zoraida solo. On Twitter. I am the phrase z like in Zorro and I try to post to my website zoraidaCó but not like there's I used to blog on there. But now I just do a newsletter, which I do maybe like once every few months because I'm terrible at being author promo person. Since I'm always on deadline, but mostly Twitter and Instagram is where people can find my work. And my books are available everywhere. I have really good relationships with independent bookstores. Specifically, The Raven in Kansas and The Raven in Lawrence, Kansas, which I love because that's where supernatural takes place. Courtney 1:08:37Yes,Zoriada 1:08:38yeah. And, and a lot of the independent bookstores in New York City as well. So my books are just, they're available everywhere. SoCourtney 1:08:47right, as much as we can friends. I know it's easy to order from Amazon support your local independent bookseller. Most of these booksellers that they don't have the book, they can order it for you. So just go in and say I need everything that Zoraida Córdova has ever written and I need it Immediately. And if they don't have another shelf, then they will usually they will usually order it for you. So all right. Well, Zoraida thank you so much for being on today. This has just been a delight and has just been made my creative juices go crazy. It might even make Kanani creative. We don't even know. We'll see what happens. And so, thank you again, this has been a real joy.Hilary 1:09:24Yeah, thank you so much. It's been really great having you on. Zoriada 1:09:27Thank you so much. Kanani 1:09:30It was awesome having a lot. It was actually really exciting to have someone on who's like, so creative, and it was really interesting to talk to someone who does fiction. It was actually very cool to learn how you do it.Courtney 1:09:45Wow. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This is great. And to our listeners. Thank you again for joining us. And if you want to support the show, don't forget to subscribe rate and review us on iTunes. You can also buy us a Ko-fi check out our Mercer Etsy store or enjoy All the bonus content by being a supporter on Patreon. We are also on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and for show notes, audio transcript or to ask us a question for a future episode. Go to that witch Until then, keep moaning that shit witches stay healthy. And we will talk to you all next week Hilary 1:10:20bye1:10:21Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be.Courtney 1:10:35I realized, like, I couldn't even make fun of you this week for like anything. And there's only been three times in like the 25 years we've been friends where I've not been able to make fun of you like, with COVID like I can't even make jokes. And that's been to make this about myself. This has been really hard for right exactly. This has been a really hard time for myself ................
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