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CBS News

FACE THE NATION

Sunday, December 21, 2003

GUESTS: General RICHARD MYERS Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff Senator PAT ROBERTS, (R-KS) Chairman, Select Intelligence Committee Senator JOSEPH BIDEN, (D-DE) Foreign Relations Committee THOMAS FRIEDMAN The New York Times

MODERATOR: BOB SCHIEFFER - CBS News

This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of the press. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

In case of doubt, please check with FACE THE NATION - CBS NEWS 202-457-4481

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Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, December 21, 2003

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BOB SCHIEFFER, host:

Today on FACE THE NATION: General Richard Myers, our top military man, on the capture of Saddam Hussein. Where will the despotic leader be tried? Will the insurgency end? Where are the weapons of mass destruction? And what kind of information are we getting from Saddam Hussein? These are the questions for General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and for Senators Pat Roberts, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Joe Biden, ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Tom Friedman of The New York Times joins in the questioning. And I'll have a final word on why people hate politics.

But, first, the fate of Saddam Hussein on FACE THE NATION.

Announcer: FACE THE NATION with CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. And now from CBS News in Washington, Bob Schieffer.

SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. We feel fortunate this morning to have the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Richard Myers, with us. Joining in the questioning this morning, Tom Friedman, of The New York Times.

And, General, let me first take note of the fact that Time magazine has named the American military man as the person of the year this year.

General RICHARD MYERS (Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff): Isn't that terrific?

SCHIEFFER: I think that is something that will validate the feelings of many Americans.

Gen. MYERS: Well, I hope it does.

SCHIEFFER: So my congratulations to you on behalf of all those people.

Gen. MYERS: On behalf of all those folks that serve active and--and reserve, we thank you. I think it--I think it's really appropriate. This last year they have stood tall. In many cases they're--they're what--is what betw--is between the terrorists and the--and the goal line. They've--they've--they understand what they're doing. We just visited about 25,000 of them in Iraq and Afghanistan and Djibouti. American people can be really proud of what they do day in and day out. They understand their mission. They're proud to serve. And they're making--the most important thing is they're making a real difference in Afghanistan and Iraq. I mean, they are changing things. They're changing the scenery for good.

SCHIEFFER: I think the American people do appreciate that. Let's--let me ask you about Saddam Hussein. Has there been any noticeable change, has anything happened since his capture?

Gen. MYERS: Well, as you know, some of the--some of the papers that were captured with him have given us a better understanding of the former regime elements and how they're organized. And there have been ab--over 200 people detained, based on that intelligence, probably more to come.

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SCHIEFFER: Two hundred?

Gen. MYERS: Over 200 that have been detained. So it gave us a pretty good understanding of--of the infrastructure. I think it also is important in--in that it--it tells the Iraqi people and anybody else that had any hope that the Ba'athist regime was coming back that it, in fact, is over; that their leader, this terrible dictator, is--is captured and is in captivity and--and will not be able to lead them again.

SCHIEFFER: Have pin--people been more likely to come and--and tell you things?

Gen. MYERS: Absolutely.

SCHIEFFER: I mean, has there been walk-in intelligence that you weren't getting?

Gen. MYERS: Yeah. G--yes, exactly right, Bob. Just as we saw with the--when we killed his two sons, when they resisted and were--were finally killed, we saw a big increase in those willing to come forward, probably because they weren't as afraid. We're seeing that same phenomena again now with the capture of Saddam Hussein. So we're having more people come forward, and--and in the end that's how we're going to defeat the former regime elements, foreign Jihadists that might be in there, criminal activity. It's--it's Iraqis finally saying, `We're not afraid anymore. We want a better Iraq for the Iraqi people,' and--and--and came forward.

SCHIEFFER: Have we turned a corner?

Gen. MYERS: Well, I don't know if we've turned the corner. I think--I think the way I characterize it is this--this capture of Saddam Hussein is a big step in many steps that are going to lead to the inevitable, which is a--is a better Iraq.

SCHIEFFER: Tom?

Mr. THOMAS FRIEDMAN (The New York Times): General Myers, there's a lot of people think that dissolving the--disbanding the Iraqi army was a mistake. I hear lately that we've stopped referring to the new Iraqi army that we're building as the new Iraqi army. I sense a change in policy here. We're trying to really reconstitute an Iraqi army, as it were, maybe to overcome that mistake. Could you explain what's going on there?

Gen. MYERS: I'll give you my--my--my thoughts on this. I--I don't know if it was possible to--to just transfer the old Iraqi army over to some new entity. The--the fact is the--parts of the Iraqi army that we really would have been interested in were the regular army, many made up mainly of conscripts who--who faded--faded away. I mean, they weren't around to say, `Please come join us.' And certainly the senior leadership we'd have to be very careful about because they were probably too close to the regime.

What, in fact, we're doing with these 160,000 Iraqis we have in the police and other security organizations are trying to encourage some of those young people that where in the Iraqi army to come forward and some of the leadership

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up to a certain level to make--because we think there's--they've been trained.

They understand the landscape. But we've, again, got to be very careful.

They have got to be carefully vetted. If they have close ties to any of the

horrors that were associated with the former regime, obviously, we can't use

them, but...

Mr. FRIEDMAN: How long do you anticipate, if things go reasonably well, American forces will be there, and given the demands that would be required, do we need a bigger army?

Gen. MYERS: On the first question, you know, we're--we're looking through the next rotation of forces. We're going to have to, as we--as the Iraqi government stands up here on--on 1 July, be in negotiation with them on--in terms of what will be the role of the coalition forces in that country. There will, obviously, have to be some role and for some time. How long, I don't think we know yet. It's--it'll be event-driven. It's not going to be time-line driven. I think that we need to be there with the resolve and the will to win because it's so important for whatever length of time it takes. And this next rotation will be a little bit smaller than the--the previous rotation. As more Iraqis come on board, perhaps we get more coalition help, and the US portion of that will go down.

But on the--on the part of `Do we need more--a larger army?'--I would say that right now we can't--we can't say that. We--we need to become as efficient as we can become before we start to say we need more people to come on board. The most--most expensive thing the Department of Defense can do is to hire one more person. That's 60 percent of our budget. And we have to understand that--that the current budgets--you know, budgets in DOD ebb and flow, and the last thing you want to do is bring--bring somebody on board and then have a--have a--a manpower-intensive budget in the future that may or may not be required. So this is under careful consideration.

Obviously, the biggest impact is on the Army, perhaps the Marine Corps, General Schumaker; the commandant of the Marine Corps, Mike Heggey; the secretary of Defense, all the Joint Chiefs are looking at this continually, and we will--will have to sort through it. The other thing to realize is that even if we wanted to hire more people today, it would be a couple of years before you have an effective force out of those folks. So, no, I think--I think for now that question--we're--we're just going to keep plowing through, try to be more efficient and--and--and try to determine that, but...

SCHIEFFER: General, it's very easy to--because so much attention's on Iraq, to not talk about Afghanistan, but you were just there. How's it...

Gen. MYERS: You bet.

SCHIEFFER: How's it going?

Gen. MYERS: I think it's going re--very well. We have the constitutional Loya Jirgas going on in Kabul. It's been relatively secure; that's key. We want to--we want to keep that secure. Part of that's being done by NATO because they have the responsibility for the security in the Kabul region. We back that up. In the provinces, things are going reasonably well. We do not have large massings of al-Qaida, of Taliban. We have individual attacks,

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which, again, try to terrorize, and so they're trying to terrorize

non-governmental organizations and--and international organizations. We have

substantial forces there, over 11,000 US forces there. We have substantial

coalition forces in there, over 6,000 coalition forces.

But--but--but things are going pretty well primarily because of these provincial reconstruction teams, where we try to bring the power of the central government to the various regions, provide projects and so forth and combine security with UN help, with non-governmental organization help and--and show the people that there's--there's a real benefit to being part of a--of a--an Afghan--a--a larger Afghanistan.

SCHIEFFER: And what a--what about the hunt for Osama bin Laden? Closer to him? Do we know--have any idea where he is?

Gen. MYERS: It still goes on, and we track down every lead. And there are people in this government and in other governments that are dedicated to finding him. I--I--I think it's just a matter of time before we do.

SCHIEFFER: Really?

Gen. MYERS: Oh, absolutely.

SCHIEFFER: Now what do--what do you base that on?

Gen. MYERS: Base that on that his op--his options for hiding become less and less as we gain more and more intelligence. I think people--like we found Saddam Hussein, it was a capture of an individual that, finally, one individual was able to--to--to lead us pretty close. As we keep working this trail--I mean, it's--it's like any good detective work or any good intel work: You know, one lead leads to the next lead, leads to the le--next lead. And you don't know when you're going to get your breakthrough, but--but I'm confident we will.

SCHIEFFER: Well, thank you very much, General. And, again, congratulations to you for the job the American military has done.

Gen. MYERS: They've done a terrific job. Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Tom.

Mr. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Let's go now to Senator Joe Biden, who, of course, is the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, we've got Saddam Hussein; everybody agrees that's good news. What do you think we ought to do with him?

Senator JOSEPH BIDEN (Democrat, Delaware): I think there ought to be a trial that--in Iraq with a lot of outside expertise and help. The bottom line here is that by that I mean that we have a lot of experience and the international community has a lot of experience with these war crime tribunal-type arrangements. And I think the most critical thing, Bob, is, at the end of the day, all the forensic evidence is brought forward in a professional way and is presented in a way to the world, particularly the Arab and the Muslim world,

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to demonstrate what--in convincing manner that this guy was the butcher that

he is.

SCHIEFFER: Well, you know, his daughters say they don't think he can get a fair trial in Iraq; that it ought to be some sort of an international trial. What would be your reaction to that?

Sen. BIDEN: Well--well, I--I--I--I guess my--my--I shouldn't have laughed, but I--I--I think it is, in fact, the reason why there has to be an international flavor to this. In other words, bringing in the--the UN to advise the--the Iraqi tribunal, bringing in experts from The Hague--I don't know what for, but demonstrating that this is not just sort of a rump group of Iraqis who are not prepared to try in an open way the guy that has done such--done such car--created such carnage in their country. And I think it's able to be done to the extent that we have the internat--they have the international community involved in the preparation of and the carrying out of the trial. There are models that--where--where--where--where that has occurred.

Mr. FRIEDMAN: Se--Senator Biden, some people would say, maybe me, that you've probably gotten the Iraq war right more than any other Democrat. You supported the use of force. When things didn't go well, you stuck with it. You called for bigger, better, faster, not trying to run away from your vote. And, in some ways, things have--have come around to you. Is the fact that you took that position the result of the fact that you're the only leading Democrat not running for president?

Sen. BIDEN: Well, let me put it this way: Had--had I decided to run for president--and my position may not have been particularly palatable or salable, but it--it is--I--had I run, I think--you know me well enough, Tom--I would have said the same thing I'm saying now. It may not have put me in very good stead. But I think now--now the burden to make sure this goes forward is that--that--that the administration continues this U-turn they began, and--and figures out what is going to follow on to Bremer. We need something that--tha--that is--that--that reports to the Security Council.

There's got to be some entity after Bremer. We've got to get NATO in there. You know, Tom, I--you and I--not you and I to--in c--collusion here, but we--we've both been saying that NATO has to get in, in this deal. I think NATO's ready to do it. I think that--I--I know the French are ready to do it, and they--and they've been as outrageous in some of the things they've done leading up to the war as some of the most outrageous folks in this administration. But I think everybody figures out there's more to lose here if we don't get this internationalized and get NATO in and--and have a follow-on entity for Bremer, who, as our president's announced, is going out of business in June.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, let's bring Senator Pat Roberts, who, of course, is the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, into this.

Senator Roberts, you've--you've been listening to Senator Biden. You heard General Myers this morning. Do you think there's any option except the death penalty for Saddam Hussein? Yes, he has to have a good trial, but in the end of the day, won't the Iraqis, won't the American people, demand that he be put

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to death?

Senator PAT ROBERTS (Republican, Kansas): I don't know about the American people, but I know that he should be held in Iraq. And they do have the authorization for a tribunal that calls for five judges, nine appellate judges, and it also calls for some international help in regards to observers and some professional advice, some staff. So that's--you know, that's in place. And I think you have to--I think you have to come to closure. When we were in Iraq and--i--if you would mention his name--there was a palpable fear, a--a frozen face, if you will, on the part of the Iraqis when you mentioned his name. So I think it--it has to occur in Iraq. I don't know where, because of the security precautions that will have to take place. But if it--but if it does take place in Iraq, there is no question in my mind that there will be a death penalty.

SCHIEFFER: At the end of the day, what do you think--and you're getting briefed now. At the end of the day, do you think we're getting anything valuable from Saddam Hussein? General Myers says we are getting more people walking in. Just the fact that he's been caught is causing people to come in and talk to them. Do you think we'll get anything from him?

Sen. ROBERTS: I doubt it. He...

SCHIEFFER: Have we so far? I know you're being briefed.

Sen. ROBERTS: He is a master of deceit and deception. I think he was confused and somewhat bewildered at the first, somewhat shocked at his circumstance, but he soon relied on those old speeches...

SCHIEFFER: Yeah.

Sen. ROBERTS: ...you know, that he gave. But that material in that trash bag and that briefcase, and the document exploitation that we've gone through--as the general has already pointed out, over 100 people have been detained, arrested. And it gave us an insight on the intelligence side on how these cells are operating, and that they largely came from the Ba'ath Party and specific places in the Ba'ath Party. And let me give a little--a little--kudos in regards to the intelligence community. There's been a lot of brickbats, you know, tossed their way; some deserved, some not. They really did a stunning job this time around. And if we expand that kind of capability, it will certainly help in--regarding to deter and to detect these terrorist attacks.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Let's take a break here. We'll come back and talk about that some more in just a minute.

(Announcements)

SCHIEFFER: Back again now with Senator Pat Roberts and Senator Biden.

Senator Roberts, I want to come back to you. In a period when there's not been a lot of good news, this last week provided some very good news, it seems to me, for the United States, not only the capture of Saddam, finding this intelligence, but we also had the situation in Libya. Do you see a connection

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between what happened in Libya and what's been going on in Iraq?

Sen. ROBERTS: Why, yes, I do, and it's a paradox because we've really started with the Brits and a very stealthy way of intense diplomatic effort to put the pressure on the Libyans and they responded with the Lockerbie agreement if we can see that through. And now they have responded in regards to taking down their WMD program.

Let's not forget Secretary Baker who went over and talked to the Germans and the French, and it looks like they're going to be coming around in re--in regards to the debt forgiveness. And then we had the Saddam Hussein situation and then--Let's see, what else? I guess maybe I ran in terms of the surprise inspections that they have agreed to. So I guess we're batting four for four and let's hope we can go five for five.

SCHIEFFER: Tom.

Mr. FRIEDMAN: I'd like to ask Senator Biden and Senator Roberts, some--does it matter that we haven't found the WMD in Iraq and do you think there's any prospect that we will? Senator Biden, if you'd take a whack at that first.

Sen. BIDEN: Oh, I--I don't think it matters in terms of whether or not--how we go from here. It matters in terms of whether or not the intelligence community can be relied upon and/or whether the administration misused the intelligence they had for the future. It doesn't matter so much here, but clearly, the--the--if--one--one of three things, Tom. Either the intelligence is wrong about weapons of mass destruction being--and the nuclear program being reconstituted and weaponized capability, or, in fact, the intelligence community is right and the administration didn't tell us the truth, or it's there and we can't find it. And I find it hard to believe we couldn't find evidence after all this time of weaponization and whether or not the nuclear program is reconstituted. So it goes to the future more than it does to the past.

Mr. FRIEDMAN: Senator Roberts, you oversee this intelligence community.

Sen. ROBERTS: Well, we--we have our inquiry that's ongoing, and I had hoped we could have it done by October. That's not the case. I have been working with Senator Rockefeller and others on the committee. I think we will have hopefully some public hearings by February, but we want to do a thorough job as opposed to putting a time frame on it. And we are basically answering the very questions that Senator Biden raised, more especially on the timeliness and the accuracy of the intelligence in reference to both the--the WMD and then the activities of terrorist organizations in the country prior to the war. We will get those questions out.

SCHIEFFER: Well, you know, my friend Don Imus uses kind of the car key parallel, and he says, you know, he loses his car keys and it comes to a certain point when you say, `I'm just not going to be able to find them,' and you go on to something else. Is--is it possible that we're just going to have to say, `Look, if there were weapons of mass destruction, we--we're not going to find them and we'll simply have to use these forces to do other more productive things'?

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