2020-02-29



2020-02-29Vic Chapman wrote: Yaama John,I have been asked for translation to Yuwaalaraay of:“We (Aboriginal people) are with you. We have always been here. Come. Walk with us.” Would appreciate your help.Maayubaa nginda. Maayu yanaaya.?Vic.Nganbal/TranslationA common trap in translation is to look at the words, rather than the meaning or feeling, the real purpose of the text in the original language. For instance English often uses ‘heart’ for feelings/emotions, but Aboriginal languages much more commonly use other body parts. So, unless the topic is medical, ‘heart’ would be translated with mubal ‘guts’, wuru ‘throat’ or with other words, including some which do not refer to body parts. Below is one translation of the English given. If anything, it still follows the English words and structure too closely.After the translation there is a partial discussion of ideas behind the translation.Translation 1Giirr nginaayngunda ngiyani Marigiirr warraylanha.True with you(plural) we(plural) Indigenous people are (standing).We (Aboriginal people) are with you.Giirr ngiyani nguwalay yanaa-dhii-y.la-nha. True we here walk-for.long.time-are.We have always been hereNgiyaningunda-wadhaay yanaa-dhii-yaa-ya. With-us-choice walk-long.time-continuous.moving-commandCome. Walk with usTranslation 2Giirr Wandaga, Marigiirr milanda warraylanha Aboriginal are [standing] at one with Whites. Giirr ngiyani nguwalay yanaa-dhii-y.la-nha. We have always been hereGiirrbadhaay ngiyaniyuu milanda yanaaylay. Let’s we all walk as one. 1 We (Aboriginal people) are with you.‘with’ is one of those interesting/troublesome English words. It has many translations. When it means ‘instrument’ it is translated using the Ergative suffix. I ate with a fork. gula ‘fork’; gula-gu ‘with (using) a fork. Dha-y ngaya gula-gu. When you have something it is sometimes translated with the Baraay[GR] / Biyaay[YR] ‘having/with’ suffix, as in the language name Gamil-araay ‘no-with’Tape 2435B Fred Reece: Someone was going along ‘with a dog’ maadhaay-biyaay [buruma-baraay in Gamilaraay]Tape 1848A Fred Reece talks of someone who is ngulu dhurrun-biyaay ‘face hair-with’, translating ‘Has a hairy face.’ [in Gamilaraay dhurrun-baraay]With you: Tape 2438A, Fred Reece: ‘with you’ is nginunda, which is usually translated at/on/near you(1 person), i.e. Locative case. Locative case is also used for ‘with you’ in other Aboriginal languages. One more example, but by no means covering all possible translations of ‘with’. Someone shivering ‘with the cold’ is baliyaa-dhi ‘cold-from’ (Ablative case, Yuwaalaraay)Aboriginal. GY had no word for Aboriginal. The word mari-giirr (Gamilaraay.person-like) is in the Dictionary Supplement for Indigenous.Giirr nginaayngunda ngiyani Marigiirr warraylanha. True with you(plural) we(plural) Indigenous people are (standing).2 We have always been here.The temptation is to use an adverb for ‘Always’. However one of the features of Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay that the earliest recorders of it were strongly struck by was the verb suffixes that gave time information. The most common, in recent recordings, is -ngayi-y/ngarri-y ‘in the morning’, often translated ‘today when used in past tense, and ’tomorrow’ when in future tense. Yaluu has [download Yaluu from > references]I will see him tomorrow. (615) CW/FR 3217A 988giirr ngaya=laa=nha / ngarra-l.ngayi-ytrue 1SG =DIR =3 / see-MORN -FUTThere are a number of suffixes that are translated ‘long time’, ‘very long time’ and ‘for a long time’, however their precise meanings and uses are uncertain because we have too few examples. The suffix -Dhii-y is ‘for a long time’.A further question is what verb to use. Indigenous languages often do not have a word that corresponds to English ‘be’, and sentences such as this one would be translated with verbs such as sit, stand, lie, walk. We don’t know which verb a fluent GY speaker would have chosen. Yanaa-y ‘go’ [yana-y GR] is one possibility so the sentence could be:Giirr ngiyani nguwalay yanaa-dhii-y.la-nha. True we here walk-for.long.time-are.3 Come. Walk with us.”Come: either dhaay yananga ‘to here walk/come’ or ‘dhaay dhurrala‘come here’Walk with us.Ngiyaningunda-wadhaay yanaa-dhii-yaa-ya. With-us-choice walk-long.time-continuous.moving-commandGY has two ways of saying ‘ing’ as in ‘walk-ing’, one (continuous.moving) implies movement to a new place, the other (continuous.non-moving) not. The clitic (suffix on the first word) -badhaay [-wadhaay in GR] indicates that the person spoken to has a choice. The statement is an invitation, more than a command. 2020-02-20 – Always wasYaama Odee, Baawaa, one principle I try to follow is to emphasise the non-English ways of doing things. So often when reading material from traditional speakers I am really amazed at how different it is. An application here is to ask whether we need an adverb of time to translate ‘always’. In Wangaaybuwan there is a verb suffix, -waaka-li, which = ‘long time’Donaldson [1980: p 195] says: In present [tense] it indicates that an event happens ‘all the time’, as in There is always water. Yaluu; p 270 ff has a number of similar suffixes in YR; awayi-y and -DHii-y are both ‘for a long time’; we could follow the WN pattern and have one of them, in present tense = always. A question then is what verb to use. In Donaldson ‘there is always water’ uses wamba-y ‘be.up’ [related to GY wamba-li ‘carry’].I’d think of using warra-y ‘stand’.Donaldson does not have the suffix with a continuous suffix, but that could be used for extra emphasis. And is needed for present tense in YG [not in WN]Dhawun nhalay Yuwaalaraay warra-w.awayi-y-la-nha.or Yuwaalaraay warra-w.awayi-y-la-nha, dhawun nhalay [or nguwalay]or Yuwaalaraay nguwalay warra-w.awayi-y-la-nha or use ‘sit’ verb; is wi-y ‘lie’ – that would be a bit more creative;using the possessive: Maran.gu, birraliigu, wi-y-awayi-y-la-nha nguwalay – using a different verb. or you could use the -dhii-y suffix, with present continuous; This sort of statement is a bit formulaic. Someone starts it and it is repeated. For instance people could have said ‘country’ instead of ‘land’ or Indigenous/ First Nations instead of Aboriginal or could have added ‘now is’ So there is no ‘right’ answer; above just a few suggestions; another question is how to then get the decided version out to people;Yaama,Looking to try and do a translation or something to the same affect for the term 'Always was, always will be'The term is often followed by the line 'Aboriginal land'?I was thinking something like- dhugay maranu, dhugay birraliigu. Always ancestor--belonging to. Always children-belonging to.Im sure there are many many ways this idea could be expressed.Perhaps there is something to be done with yilaa/yilaalu.?Any thoughts?Gaay guwaala nganunda.?Maarubaa.?Odee.?2020-02-12 - GambaayIs there an app for language plsYaama Vickie, there is a dictionary app: gaaygaray, which is fairly basic. We are working on another app. However, a dictionary gives you words, and often only basic forms of the words. Gamilaraay is very different from English, so to create more complex language you need more. There are lots of language learning resources at , for instance if you go to youtube and search for ‘speak Gamilaraay’ you will find quite a few materials. There will also be an announcement soon on a language text. GambaayStephanie Kosh How would you say ‘I love you my darling husband’ ??? also is the word for wife the same or different?Yaama Stephanie, When Arthur Dodd is asked to translate ‘love’ he uses winanga-y, which is also translated ‘understand, know, remember, think, and believe’. These days winanga-y is also used for ‘respect’ and ‘acknowledge’. There is another word, guwiirrnga-li (Yuwaalaraay) ‘love (be sweet on’ Probably from guwiirr (sweet). It was heard from one person, and relatively recently. Guliirr is ‘partner/husband/wife’. Traditionally it likely meant ‘someone who was the right meat for you’. For instance Gambuu [man] married [mostly] a Maadhaa [woman], so it is likely any Maadhaa would call and Gambuu Guliirr. There is a bit more about this in the dictionary: look up Gambuu etc. There are many possible translations of ‘I love you my darling husband’Winangaylanha ngaya nginunha, guliirr, gambaay ngay. Love [ongoing] I you, husband/partner; darling my.Bamba ngaya nginunha winangaylanha, guliirr, gambaay ngay.Adding ‘bamba’ which in this context could be translated ‘intensely’. Bamba ngaya nginunha guwiirrngaldanha, guliirr, gambaay ngay.using guwiirrngali to indicate a more romantic love.Bamba ngaya nginunha guwiirrngaldanha, giwiirr ngay, gambaay ngay.using giwiirr ‘man’ instead of guliirr. Instead of Bamba you could use giirr, which means something like ‘I really know this is true’Giirr ngaya nginunha guwiirrngaldanha, giwiirr ngay, gambaay ngay.Or use giirruu. The uu adds the meaning ‘totally’. With giirruu you are saying ‘I absolutely know this is true’.We are in a world which talks about ‘love’ differently from traditional language, so new words may need to be developed. 2020-02-08Loren, hope I don’t upset you by making some general comments; Yanay baabi-li = will go/walk, will sleep; Many times, perhaps most times, a word in one language has no exact equivalent in other languages; so looking up the dictionary is a start, but can lead to things that are strange to speakers, and even people with reasonable knowledge of a language can get it wrong: President Emmanuel Macron committed a rather delicious faux pas on Wednesday that left his Australian audience scratching their heads.Mr Macron has been in the country on a diplomatic trip, discussing weighty issues like climate change and defence.The president's immaculate English, however, failed him momentarily as he thanked PM Malcolm Turnbull."Thank you and your delicious wife for your warm welcome, the perfect organisation of this trip," he said.The French word is délicieux, which can be used to describe a very tasty meal.But it can also be used to refer to something very good or very agreeable, in the sense of "delightful". Mr Macron chose the word he wanted, but not the meaning he wanted. The principle that there is not a direct translation is even more important with phrases. I was looking at an Indonesian art work recently: Licking the skin of the watermelon. The commentary said: This is something like English: Scratching the surface.All of the above to indicate that translation is challenging, and a dictionary is often just a partial help, and can lead to strange ‘translations’. Go to sleep: baabi-laa-ya; baabili – sleep or lie [and maybe more]-laa the moving suffix, using to indicate ‘movement from’ being awake to being asleep; -ya ‘command’In this situation it is not a strong command, so, if it fits the music, -wadhaay can be put at the end; something like ‘if you like, please’baabi-laa-ya-wadhaay OR; there is a noun yuwarr ‘sleep’ and a verb yuwarra-y ‘go to sleep’ alternative translations; yuwarra-waa-yayuwarra-waa-ya-wadhaayyuwarr-a baabi-laa-ya[-wadhaay] [lie sleeping]little baby; I work on the principle that adjectives generally come after the noun; There was a lot of discussion at one stage about yn/yin in the spelling system; with some preferring to write it yin, others yn. In the dictionary we went for yn. It is not helpful in a language to have multiple spelling systems. In the widespread GR system gaayinmara gaayinggal would be gaaynmara gaaynggal. again, trying to parallel each English word with a GR word is often not the best translation. birralii-dhuul; little child would be good; gaaynggal already has the gaay ‘small’ in it, so having another word for small would sound funny; you could put a -dhuul on it; [-duul after l] gaaynggalduul; Your eyes are tired little babyAh, inalienable possession; In GR [and in Italian] where English uses a possessive pronoun [my, your, etc] often there is none; baramay mil, gaaynggalduul/birraliidhuulor baramay nginda mil, gaaynggalduul/birraliidhuula bit more ‘theory’ relexified English; this is the tendency, in ‘translation’ to have one GR word for each English word, and in the same order. Relexification changes the original language massively. ‘good night’ is a formula, whose meaning is related to the words, but it mainly is a formulaic greeting; like; ‘How do you do?’ How’s it going?’ [which, in English, really don’t want an answer other than ‘good’. In German you only say them if you have 20 minutes for the answer] or more recent phrases like ‘have a good day/weekend/rest of your life]So I’d be looking for something different; Langloh-Parker may have some ideas about what could be said; From:?Loren Ryan <Ryan.Loren@.au>?Sent:?Thursday, 6 February 2020 11:25 AMTo:?hilary_smith@xtra.co.nzSubject:?RE: Lorens Lullaby?This is to the tune of Brahms Lullaby.??From:?Loren Ryan?Sent:?Thursday, 6 February 2020 11:22 AMTo:?hilary_smith@xtra.co.nzSubject:?Lorens Lullaby?Yanay baabi-li – Go to sleep Loren Ryan??Go to sleep, go to sleep little babyYanay Baabil-li, Yanay Baabi-li gaayinmara gaayinggal??Your eyes are tired little babyBaramay nginu mil gaayinmara gaayinggal?Good night, night little babyGaba nguru, gaba nguru gaayinmara gaayinggal??Good night, good night little baby?Gaba nguru, gaba nguru gaayinmara gaayinggal2020-01-16Notes As ever with this sort of request I wish I knew more, to do Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay justice. Below some suggested translations and comments. If adopted the meaning of dhawun and dhaymaarr will have been expanded to include the concept ‘planet/earth’. John Giacon 2020-01-21GY = Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay The information on Gamilaraay is older, almost all written and overall much less than that available for Yuwaalaraay, which has many more relatively recent sources. Much of the current understanding of Gamilaraay is based on Yuwaalaraay. Translation requested for: Die Nacht ist der Schatten der Erde?- German (original sentence)The Night is the Shadow of the Earth | Night is the Earth's Shadow?(Earth in terms of planet Earth) - EnglishA number of translations are given, with comments. Grammatical and lexical notes follow. Gamilaraay Buluuy, dhadhin dhawun.gu.Night/dark, shadow earth.Dative/possessiveThis is the one that looks best to me; the punctuation is important. Buluuy, dhawun malawilNight/dark, earth shadow This attributes special significance to ‘earth’Buluuy, dhadhin dhawun.gu warraylanhaNight/dark, shadow earth.Dative/possessive stands [not sure what stative verb would be used]Ngurru could be used instead of buluuy. Yuwaalaraay Buluuy, dhadhin dhaymaarrgu.Night/dark, shadow earth.Dative/possessiveThis is the one that looks best to me; the punctuation is important. Buluuy, dhaymaarr malawilNight/dark, earth shadow This attributes special significance to ‘earth’Buluuy, dhadhin dhaymaarrgu warraylanhaNight/dark, shadow earth.Dative/possessive stands [not sure what stative verb would be used]Grammar/sentence structureOften sentences corresponding as the one given here have no verb. If there is a verb it will generally be a stative verb, and for this sentence likely a continuous verb. Words: There are the usual issues with translation; one is that the set of meanings of a word in one language generally don’t correspond with one form in another; as seen in the information on the Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay words below. Shadow: as seen below, there are two words for shadow, one of which has significant cultural connotations: malawil, ‘human shadow (and other uses)’. I suspect that malawil was inalienable when used of humans; i.e. it agreed in case with the ‘possessor’; possessive case was not used. That raises the question of what structure to use in this translation, if malawil is to be used for shadow. Using dhadhin removes that question. earth: The English word is polysemous; as is German erde. [cf Google translate]. In this context its meaning is of a sphere, rotating around the sun. It is not clear what concept of ‘the world’ traditional GY people had, but it was not of a sphere, rotating around the sun. It is possible, consciously or not, to assign the meaning ‘planet’ to dhawun and dhaymaarr, but that is to extend their meaning, albeit in a pattern that is common in many languages. night: buluuy ;YR and GR; black, dark, night; dictionary has:buluuy (YR, YY, GR) noun, adjective1 night. ?Dhama-y yilaa buluuy-a. (YY) It’s going to rain at night.2 black. ?Buluuy-bala nhama waan. (YR) The crow is black.3 dark. ?Ngali buluuy-a yanaa-nhi. (YY) We two went there in the dark.ngurru; GR; dark, night, before dawn; dictionary has: ngurru (GR) nounnight. The more common word is buluuy.ngurrugu (YR, GR) time adverbtomorrow. From ngurru (night).Shadowdhadhin: shade, shadow; of a tree, or other non-human things not human shadow acc to I Sim, not Fred Reece ; dictionary hasdhadhin1 (YY) nounshade, shadow. Of a tree or other non-human things. See also: malawildictionary has malawil (YR, YY) noun, placename1 human shadow (YR, YY). It is current knowledge that people didn’t tread on the shadows of elders.2 shadow spirit (YY).3 location (YY). Malawil is a place on the Narran River, near Angledool, so called ‘because of the shadows there’; also refers to the spirit that lives there. Ginny Rose said that Malawil was the name of the Garriya waterhole, upstream from Bollonbillion.malawil; I Sim has it as human; others more general; human shadow: also the spirit that lives in it; said to be a place name on the Narran R. “near Angledool”, so called “because of the shadows there.” Ginny Rose thought it the name of the so-called “Garriya waterhole”, upstream from Bollonbillion.Earth dhawun: GR ground, earth, dirtdhaymaarr: YR ground, earth, dirt; country you are from; home; Ted Fields Gunimaa; mother land, mother earth; Question Dear Dr. Giacon,my name is Eric Giebel. I'm a german writer and I do the research for an art project that illustrates the diversity of languages. Please allow me to introduce it to you shortly.If you can't support the project, please give me a short message. Thanks.??I do the research of the translation of?one?german sentence into all, or, let's say, a maximum of languages for german artist Vera R?hm?[https://][veraroehm. com/index.html]. It's a long-term project since mid Eighties. You can find a couple of pictures about the workgroup "Text cubes" on her website, see?[https://][veraroehm. com/textkuben_en.html]. Updated we have 500 languages.?The sentence to be translated is:?Die Nacht ist der Schatten der Erde?- German (original sentence)The Night is the Shadow of the Earth | Night is the Earth's Shadow?(Earth in terms of planet Earth) - EnglishCan you support the project with a translation into?Gamilaraay | Gamilaraay | Gamilaroi | Kamilaroi?[gami1243] [kld] [D23]?(and add a gloss), please?I know, there are a couple of problems to solve, linguistical and ethical ones. I guess I will need a permission of the speaker community. Do you agree with it?I don't want to keep it secret that I already was in contact to Peter Austin who said the project is culturally odd but provided me three translations.Thank you for your interest and your kind support.Kind regardsEric Giebel?-- Eric GiebelSchriftsteller und Blogger | Writer and BloggerMartinstr. 81 L64285 DarmstadtDeutschland | GermanyTel. ++49 (0)6151/7877251Literaturblog: [https://][][vitabuvingi. de/]2020-01-09Yaama John,Quick one, what would be a translation for“Always was, Always will be, Aboriginal land”Gaba nginda?Lyle? [McKenna]Yaama Lyle, Gaba nginundi winangaldaay/good to hear from you. I’ll make some comments, then possible translations. As ever I am working with what I know. Others, particularly people with knowledge of strong Australian Indigenous languages, may be able to improve on or expand on this. Translation Often, probably most of the time, it is not possible to say something in one language that has the exact meaning as something in another language. So we do the best we can. ‘be/is/was’ There is no word in Gamilaraay, or in most Aboriginal languages, that corresponds to English ‘be/is/was’. Often, particularly in present tense statements, no verb is used. Gundhi nhamalay. can be translated: ‘There is a house over there.’ For other time reference, future, past, a position verb is used: ‘sit, stand, lie, squat, ..’. Gundhi warranhi. Gundhi warraylanhi. could both be translated: ‘There was a house.’ I suspect that such sentences would generally have had a demonstrative, a word like nhama/nhamalay. Because so few such sentences have been recorded, and when they have the informants had likely been influenced by English, we don’t really know what verb would be traditional. Do houses sit or stand? I have been told that in some languages they ‘crouch’, but also that the verb used has changed in the last 30 years or so.Always In English this is an adverb. However one feature of Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay that has been noted since records were written down is that GY verbs often include bits that have to do with time. The most common in recent records is -ngayi-y ‘morning’, past tense -ngayi-nyi.Fred Reece [Tape 5053] says: ngarra-l-ngayi-y [see-l-morning-future] for ‘I will see him tomorrow.’ Arthur Dodd says: dha-l-ngayi-nyi ‘ate in the morning.’ There are many other examples. The suffix -mayaa-y means in a few days, or a few days ago. There are suffixes meaning ‘a long time’ and ‘a very long time’ and one, -dhii-y, which seems to mean ‘for a long time’, but the evidence is not clear. [See Yaluu, section 8.5; p 262.] There are also adverbs listed in the dictionary as meaning ‘always’: dhugay in YR, and yaliwunga in GR. It is not clear if traditional speakers would have used just a verb or just an adverb or a combination of both in this context. CountryThe dictionary has: ngurrambaa YR ‘birthplace, family land’; and walaaybaa YR, GR home country. [Walaay is ‘camp’ and ngurra is common in Indigenous languages meaning something like ‘camp, home’.] Dhawun GR and dhaymaarr YR are glossed ‘dirt’, ‘earth’, ‘ground’. Dhaymaarr is also found as ‘home’ and dhawun occurs in dhawunma GR ‘burial ground’. It is not clear which best translates the word ‘land’, as used in the statement: “Always was, Always will be, Aboriginal land”. Aboriginal It seems that people referred to themselves by the word for person: Mari [Murri] Gamilaraay, Dhayn, Yuwaalaraay, Mayi, Wangaaybuwan, Guri [Koori, Goori], Gumbaynggirr. But there was no word corresponding to Aboriginal, i.e. Australian First Nations other than Torres Strait Islander. The word marigiirr [-giirr ‘like, similar to’] has been used as a GY word for ‘Indigenous’. So, assuming land ‘lies’ [wi-y], dhawun for ‘land’, -dhii-y ‘long time’, continuous verbs, also using an adverb, and having a demonstrative [nhalay ‘this’] and an adverb: one of many possible translations is Wiy-dhiiy-la-nhi nhalay, wiy-dhiiy-la-y dhawun marigiirr. Yaliwunga. This for a long time was, for a long time will be, Indigenous land. Always. wiy-dhiiy-la-nhi; lie-longest.time-continuous-past Another approach is to use burruguu ‘dreamtime’.Burruguu-dhi burruguu-gu, dhawun nhalay Gamilaraay. Yaliwunga.From the dreaming to the dreaming this is Gamilaraay land. Always. I don’t know how you’d say in Gamilaraay: ‘A question like this opens many cans of worms.’ It does. Maaru yananga. Go well. 2020-01-09Yaama Hilary,?He stresses the second syllable of ngiyani > ngiYAAni15s ngiyani ?gayaa biyay-baa?? 28 ngiyani garay minyangiyani lu-gu? ngiyani gimubi-laa gama nuu ngiyani diriyaa?? aa-aa 41 ngiyani-ngaa [< ngiyaninya??] nguwa [?nguwama?] miliyay 46 ngiyani-nga nguwa biray [?birray]49 gaa dhaarr ngiyaday?? , nabulay 57 nangga warringgaa 104 nginda guwaya winanggay , ??? winanggay [<?winangay] 1.16 ngiyani gamu dhabiyaan , ngiyani gamu ngarrali dhabiyaan [ngiyani gamu < we all; ngiyaniyuu is the traditional ngiyani gamu wilaway , garigaa ii-aa-ruu English Original: You're The VoiceWe have the chance, to turn the pages overWe can write what we want to writeWe gotta make ends meet, before we get much olderWe're all someone's daughterWe're all someone's sonHow long can we look at each otherDown the barrel of a gun?You're the voice, try and understand itMake a noise and make it clearOh-wo-wo-wo, oh-wo-wo-woWe're not gonna sit in silenceWe're not gonna live with fearOh-wo-wo-wo, oh-wo-wo-woThis time, we know we call can stand togetherWith the power to be powerfulBelieving, we can make it betterWe're all someone's daughterWe're all someone's sonHow long can we look at each otherDown the barrel of a gun?Source:? HYPERLINK "" LyricFindSongwriters: Keith Reid / Andy Qunta / Maggie Ryder / Christopher ThompsonYou're the Voice lyrics ? Warner Chappell Music, Inc, Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd., BMG Rights ManagementJohnJohn Giaconjgiacon@.au0421177932On 8 Jan 2020, at 21:55, <hilary_smith@xtra.co.nz> <hilary_smith@xtra.co.nz> wrote:Yaama dhagaanAllison is planning her Gamilaraay program for this year at Gunnedah South and would like to sing Mitch Tambo’s song, so asked about the lyrics: can only pick up ngiyani… Can you hear the rest???Hilary ................
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