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EM InterviewInterviewer:There’s two separate accounts then?EM:YeahInterviewer: And then if we’ve got time we’ll pick up anything else, so if you hold onto that. So, EM you’ve read the information sheet, we’re ready to get interviewing you. You’ve got two accounts that you’d like to tell me about. So lets start with the first one, tell me what happened.EM:I, where I used to live had a person who lived across the road from me, a white guy who had an air rifle who used to fire it constantly across from his garden to my garden. Shooting birds and things, and I was in the garden one day and, in fact in the past when I didn’t realise this guy had a gun and I found a pellet in my rabbit’s neck but didn’t know what the hole was.Interviewer: RightEM:I forgot about that, anyway, there was one particular day where a bullet passed me as I was picking strawberries, you know I realised what it was and he missed me by inches to the left and the right. So, I phone the police and basically described what had happened, they asked me to describe the person and I said it’s this white guy in about his twenties. We’ll get somebody round later so about an hour later, it was two women that turned up, they asked him and of course he said no I didn’t so they came and said, and I said he’s got several guns. And they asked him, have you got a gun? And he said no and they took his word for it and they came over and said ‘we’ve asked him about it be he says there’s nothing’ as he would.Interviewer: YeahEM:I was shaken by it and you know horrified and angry, I told my sons and they came up to my house to protect me and stood outside of my house which is facing his house, who’s about twenty and mum came home, saw my sons, black sons, outside of her house, phoned the police and said there are two black guys outside intimidating and within the space of ten minutes there was two police vans, a police car and a plain police car. Just because my sons were looking intimidating, even though I rang and I’d been missed by inches, literally inches by a bullet. But because it was a white guy firing the gun, uh the police turned up about an hour and a half later. But when the police arrived and my sons phoned what had happened and they said they were going to arrest them, although they did nothing, they were telling my sons to move, my sons refused to move. They said we’re here because of an incident. My younger son was annoyed by the whole situation so he was looking away form them as they were talking, didn’t want to acknowledge what they were say and stood and picked some leaves off my hedge, you know how you do when you’re sort of not looking at somebody.Interviewer:YeahEM:So he grabbed hold of a bunch of leaves as the police officer was talking to him, he dropped the leaves on the floor and the police officer tried to give him an on the spot fine for littering, just to say they weren’t happy about it. But this is the fact that you know, injustice, unfair, there was a serious incident of me being missed in the eye by a bullet by inches. But because my sons looked intimidating and dropped some leaves on the floor which are biodegradable off my hedge, they wanted to give him an on the spot fine. You know, that’s just the short off a long story, because you’ve never seen so many police on the road just because they looked intimidatingInterviewer:What post code was this in if you don’t mind me asking? EM:In NG3Interviewer:NG3, and how long ago was it?EM:About six years ago no because I had to move because of the incident. Because it gave the person even more power when he realised I can shoot guns and there’s nothing you can do about it.Interviewer: So it actually resulted in you actually having to move homeEM: Yeah I had to move home because of it yeahInterviewer: Yeah, and did you take any action as a result of this?EM:Yeah I contacted the police, complained, was given the form to fill out a complaint to the independent police commission and I knew what I’d get back before I even filed the letter, before the letter even arrived, sorry you felt this way you know, but we’ve looked into this and our officers were acting in line, you know it was one of those, it was just one of thoseInterviewer:How did that feel receiving that letter?EM:It was ridiculous, I just though you know can I remove the part of my council tax that I’m paying for the police please because I’m certain I’m not getting a decent service from them you know, and I knew that that’s what the letter would say, you knowInterviewer: So it was sort of, you weren’t very surprised or shocked EM:NoInterviewer:But you were still EM: No, non at all, non at all. You know when they were saying I’m sorry that you feel unhappy about this, um yeah, yeah and I’ve actually got two other incidents that spring to mind. The same where I complained and nothing has happened and you get the letters, probably still got them somewhere but after a while you just feel that frustrated that you delete them, or rip them up ratherInterviewer:Okay so, were there any witnesses to this incident EM: Yeah at the time because obviously they, they phoned me and I came home, I was shocked when I got home because I was shopping at the time, but because the amount of police presence, everybody in the street came out to see what was happening. Because it looked as though, you know like someone had been murdered you know. But it was because two boys were looking intimidating. But obviously because there was such a heavy police presence that everybody was looking out of their windows and looking outInterviewer:Do you know how many police there were?EM:There was Interviewer: Did you say two vehicles?EM:Two vehicles, two vans and a vehicle, the must’ve been, honestly there must’ve been ten Interviewer: WowEM:And you know again, complete waste of police time and resources you know and a complete injustice and an embarrassment. You know its like you know two young black youths, you need ten policemen to deal with them, there was a white guy the same age with a gun and two police women turn up about an hour and a half after the incident. You know, there’s just no concernInterviewer: Did the witnesses do anything? Did they EM:No, no other than afterwards you know, some people did say to me you know that they were shocked about it, people who had knew what happened and actually a lot of people were fed up with this person but nobody did complain but actually his neighbour did come over to me, afterwards, and say how well my sons handled it and didn’t rise to you know them being pushed by the police. The police wanted a response, the police wanted an excuse to arrest them and other than my son ignoring them, because I’ve told them don’t answer back to them, don’t give them what they want. You know so he took his frustration out by pulling some leaves and dropping them on the floor. You know and if that’s what the police areInterviewer:Because that’s a strategy then that you’ve taught you sons? EM:YeahInterviewer:To just don’tEM:Yeah, just don’t give them what they want, so they can say you were being aggressive, you were being mouthy, you were posing as a threat, you know, you’re being abusive to us and we’re arresting you. I’ve just told them you know, just don’t, don’t rise to the baits, don’t be what they think you’re doingInterviewer:Well, so, as, what impact has this incident, this particular incident had on you? And that impact can be anything, emotional, physicalEM:You know it’s just anotherInterviewer:Financial, I don’t know, well one of the impact is that you actually had to move house EM: Well I had to move house so that is financial because you’ve got a removal cost, you’ve got to decorate when you move Interviewer: Time, yeah all that timeEM:And all the police did nothing about it, I actually had to involve a local councillor with it and get help to get moved off the estate but it impacted me in the fact that along with a lot of other incidents as well, but they just have no faith in the police and you know and it just makes you think well this is something that you can’t choose to take off your council tax and it’s there but we don’t get a just service, we’re not treated equally, you know we’re guilty until proved innocent, so that the other way round, even when we have committed a crime, and even when you know I expected that response when I phoned to say I had been missed by inches by a bullet, that’s the response that I expected but I know when they asked me at that point, what does the person look like? If I had have said it’s a black guy, I know that I would’ve go that response. You know so had it happened again and it’s a white guy with a gun, I’d say it’s a black guy with a gun, as that’s the only way I’d know that the police would turn up on time in large numbers and do something so Interviewer:Has it had an impact on other people, so EM:Yeah my sons so you know, even, well even neighbours seeing it, um I was really upset at the time, um I guess the whole family, you know from my mum, their grandparents, yeah. Yeah I’d say the whole family and people that witnessed it on the road if they weren’t there wouldn’t have believed it had happened. You know like I said, neighbours came over and said ‘I can’t believe’ and asked me what had happened so when I gave them the full picture but you know, they’ve got no faith in police at all and I, yeahInterviewer:Has your viewpoint of the police changed as a result of that incident?EM:Yeah you know, like I said it’s the same, like how does it make you feel, and its has, it just lets you know that they are biased, that they do treat black people unfairly. That people aren’t treated like, you know in responses to anything that happens, they are treated completely, we are treated completely different if we are black, even if we are not the victims, or more to the point, sorry, even when we are the victims of a crime they come out and treat us as though we’re actually the perpetrators like were the doers of the crime Interviewer:So what I’m getting from you is that you sort of expected, like for example that nothing would happen when you complainedEM:Well yeah I expected nothingInterviewer:You expected it, but there’s still a bit of you that’s hopeful though, surely they must see, somebody must see that EM: Yes because we put that information out there, saying we want to make a change, we want work together, work with us you know um I had an incident around a similar time where my son had been chased by police with some other guys, they weren’t doing anything other than three black guys on their own, police after them, you run, and they sent a police dog after him, he got bit on the leg, they put him in a cell I went to go and see him and it’s a sort of long story, he wasn’t even around when the incident in question that they claimed fir a description for. But when I had to go down to the cells and he was interviewed and he was still, I think he was under sixteen at the time, they way that they spoke to him in front of me and he was complaining about his leg and the whole attitude and I’ll say the tone, he said it was like ‘oh dear does it hurt?’ and he said ‘just to let you know statistically more officers get bit by police dogs than civilians so don’t worry about it’ he had the right to see a nurse to have the leg examined but that never happened and at the end of the interview, the police because my son voice broke very early, but at the end of this interview he leaned forward and said to my son ‘and by the way drop this deep voice’ I can’t remember he said ‘drop this act with the deep voice with the questions, sit up straight stop talking like that’ and I said excuse me, and I said his voice has been like that since he was how old and he said something pathetic like, ‘well his voice must’ve broke very early I said’ and I said it did. He actually went to bed one night with a light voice and woke up with a deep voice, but I thought that’s got nothing to do with them but even down to that they wouldn’t say that to somebody else, you know stop this act with the voice, you know he’s got a deep voice and they wouldn’t do that if it was somebody white that they were interviewing. You know um yeah so I complained about that and again. Sorry that you felt this way you know we’ve looked into it, however the officers were acting within, you know, waste of time, waste of my effort to actually put in a complaint in the first place. Interviewer:So going to when the, when you called them out for the gun incident, looking back would you have done anything differently? EM:Yeah I would’ve said that there’s a black guy across the road with a gun and when they got there then say thanks for your fast response, sorry he happens to be white. Even though I’m saying that flippantly, I’m saying that’s the only thing that would’ve made a difference in that situation, because they did everything else that they should’ve done, no, and my sons did as they should’ve done, they came up to see if I was safe and stood outside my gate just in case it escalated because the persons got a gun and was angry that I’d phoned the police, so they only think differently you know, you I guess in all seriousness if I said it was a black guy, I would say, I don’t know what I would say I guess, you know because the realities I say, you’re not going to say that, so I don’t know, there wasn’t anything I would’ve done differently, it’s more about what should they have done differently. What they should’ve done differently is that they should’ve responded exactly the as to whether I’d said that the person was white or whether the person was blackInterviewer: I mean this research has come from the point of view that we can’t really depend on the police because as you say, these things have been going on for so long and they keep saying they’re going to do things differently and it doesn’t happen. So the only thing really that we have control over is what we do as a community and as individuals, so I’m thinking if it happened again, would you do something like, for example, collect an edition around your neighbours and say for example, you I’m trying to think off the top of my head a strategy that might get some evidence, that might actually back you up because obviously it’s your word against the police officers and so there’s nothing to report, your word against this white guy who says he hasn’t got a gun but actually there’s all these witnesses that you’ve told me about that know about the guy and that also witnessed the eventEM:Well interestingly enough, making the complain came as a result of the neighbour across the road that lived next door to the person that had the gun, coming over and saying, that she couldn’t, because she witnessed it all, you know the incident as well as the police turning up, and it was her who said I will act as a witness, I will say that you know I saw this and this was the response, the response was appalling and it was her who said you should take it further and I said nothing happened and she said no you need to and it was a white woman that said that. So I kind of did because she was saying she couldn’t believe what had happened and she will back the story up and explain what she’d seenInterviewer:What do you think prevents black people from taking action against the police?EM:Well you’re tempted to say that your first response is, well it is the fact that you know nothing will happen it’s just historic and it just continues even now, because at the time you know I felt okay I believe that they do want to know this because I and think maybe if there’s just a few bad police that are just given a bad name and I’m going to believe that because that’s what they keep telling us and they keep saying that there are these processors and so you think, okay things have changed there’s this independent police complaints commission or whatever it’s called now so I’m thinking okay I’m going to trust them, they’re going to help with this so I’m going to do it. You do it and it still makes no difference. Other than you get this leaflet back saying thank you we’ve looked into it and you know its going to say that. So yeahInterviewer:So a lack of faith in the process?EM: Yeah and there is such a big and yeah it does cause a divide, it does cause a divideInterviewer: And I’ll probably leave this question to the next one but um I’m going to ask, I’m actually going to ask you what you think black people can do, what strategies we can use in the future, you know in our dealings with the police to make us safe and to protect and an also to get a feeling that, well prevent any sort of indicating that the police, but to feel we come out with a personal power, I’ll ask you thatEM:Well I just think that this project itself, just being able to document it because you know, I’m just picking out a couple I could go on forever telling you so many incidents and know that I’m only just one black person or black family that will have a long string of similar incidents and I think that maybe, hopefully I try and find faith in the fact that maybe there might be someone up top in the police somewhere who genuinely wants to air these things and I think the more that these things are documented, if they sit and read the individual cases but they can see at the end of it statistically how many times these things are happening and flick through it and listen to these important stories and that somewhere along the line somebody is going to have to make, make them accountable. You know if it doesn’t happen now, in the future but it just shows it should happen now because there no reason it shouldn’tInterviewer:Okay so lets go onto your other incident then. So tell us about that well one of many incidents EM:One of many other but one trying to give a balanced picture of not just something happening personally to me but something at Nottingham Carnival, I think this was three years ago on the forest and there was a ride out of motorbikes and you often see them all over the place and people stand by and look and wave and take photos and I just happened to walk past a line of police saying, there was at least ten police stood you know there, crowd control looking quite relaxed, looking up and the motorbikers were on the bank that looks down and they come onto the carnival peacefully together, it looked fantastic the motorbikes were beautiful they were glistening and they were all in their leathers, they looked fantastic so I paused and I realisedInterviewer: So this is black motorcyclists EM:Sorry, first time I’d ever seen a group of black motorcyclists and I thought brilliant you see we do ride mototcycles as wellInterviewer: I’ve seen them and they are amazing, it’s awesome to seeEM:So I stood taking photos with others and I was thinking wow totally in awe, I thought isn’t It nice to see, these police start looking in awe as well and I’m not known for swearing, I don’t like to swear but I need to to give this context as I stood taking a photograph, I just happened to be next to the line of police, the one that I was stood next to stood with his arms folded, looked up at them and said to his colleague ‘what a load of f***ing t**ts’ and I was gobsmacked, his colleague laughed, he laughed, I looked at him, I couldn’t believe he had said it, I wanted to say you were lucky we’ve just said that because if it was somebody else there’d be a riot right here now you couldn’t control, I was that angry it made me shake. I went to walk off and I thought no so I turned around and I said to him, I don’t think that’s the words I would use, I said something else you know about why and at that point I took my mobile phone out to take a photo of his number on his sleeve so he turned his shoulder away from me so that I couldn’t do that and then his colleague stood next to him to actually hide his number and a friend of mine that I know was walking towards me and I actually called him over to tell him, to let these police know that I’ve just heard it and I’m going to tell somebody else so you can’t just, but they walked off and got in a police van, shut the door, locked the door and I walked over to the window as well because I was fuming, I thought I am photographing this, I know it’s just my word against his but do you know what, he knows he’s done it and if his oath to the police means anything but he turned his shoulder away so his back was to the window and I couldn’t take a photograph and I had to leave it there, there was nothing more I could do. But it’s the fact is these are there views, these are there attitudes, you know they’re a load of ‘f***ing t**ts’ because they’re black, for whatever other reason, they weren’t doing anything wrong, they weren’t speeding around they weren’t doing anything, they were lined up and they looked fantastic and they were just leaving as they said it and as all motorbike ride outs do you rev up, you start your engines, you leave together and for that reason alone and I was appalled by it, I was disgusted. You know and you can’t prove a thing like that. And the person that did it, that’s deep racist views, attitudes that wont change and he will approach every case he deals with a black person with the exact same viewsInterviewer:So do you think police can police us fairlyEM:NoInterviewer:When they walk around with those viewsEM:No, no they can’t police us fairly with those views, they don’t police us fairly with those views and that’s why I know you’ll be interviewing loads of people that have these similar stories but also it’s the fact that they do pull together, they do rank together you know because actually the colleague next to him if he had any integrity and if he wasn’t racist also, would’ve said sorry, excuse me, wouldn’t have laughed or wouldn’t have stood next to him to make sure I couldn’t see his shoulder to take a photo and walked over to him and they huddled together and the four of them that went to the van, he mumbled something to his friend so actually he must have just said something that’s been overheard, I don’t know, I don’t know what he said but they knew they need to move and they moved collectively and they got in the van collectively and they got, made sure that this guy was you know kept where I couldn’t see his number on his shoulder, is appalling, its appalling and you know and that’s just over not knowing, not over heard, so in one way I want to say I was lucky I overheard it but unlucky because thinkInterviewer: So how do you think, because obviously how long ago was this?EM:This was only, I’d say three, four years agoInterviewer: And where abouts did this happen, this was onEM:It was onInterviewer:The meadows or the forest grounds? EM:The forest grounds, the forest grounds yeah yeahInterviewer:And it still sits, I mean obviously it still sits with you so it’s had an impactEM:Well yeah, definitely, definitely it just made me think that it’s a waste of time them being there you know and already it just shows that people there they’ve already got prejudgements about, can’t stand them you know, clearly you know, you know and so they’re just waiting, they’re not there to protect us, they’re there to think, okay here’s an opportunity to get these quote on quote ‘f***ing t**ts’ you know I was just appalled, absolutely appalled but I knew there was nothing I could do about it, I didn’t have his number, I was the only person that heard it because I was stood next to him because I had stopped to take a photo, not witnesses other than his colleagues that aren’t going to, you know because if any of those colleagues had integrity, they would’ve gone back and they would’ve sweared to their senior, I’m working with a racist t**t, you know who has said this to this day and I am not going to continue working with him to cover it and he put us all in a very dangerous situation saying that in such a setting he shouldn’t say it at all but you know so basically it’s that they clearly held the same views because they didn’t challenge him and they clearly didn’t complain about him and you know I’m, I complained about that knowing that that got no evidence, no and you know obviously they couldn’t do anything about it but I still put it in writing, I think I did, I’m trying to remember, I think, no actually I think when I phoned them about it and said because there was no witnesses and I couldn’t get his number or nothing, that’s it, there was nothing that could be done about it, because it was just simply me saying what had happened, yeah so I couldn’t put in a formal complaint, so yeahInterviewer:I think that’s all the questions there so let me just have a check on the time, okay we’ve got a little bit of time so, is there anything else that you wanted to say about your dealings with the police over the years, is there anything else you want to add?EM:Yeah I thinkInterviewer:Because the idea of this is to sort of captureEM:This is quite some time ago now, you like to think things have changed but, being a Rasta and with dreadlocks had used to wear a red gold and green crown and I had an incident once where I needed to get the police to come to my house because I think my car had been broke into, they came to the house so obviously I invited them in and the person that came in, the police officer that came in was talking to me, he was too busy, he was looking round the house and I have African masks on the wall and I had a spear and he asked me why I had a spear on my wall, did I intend to use it, made a comment about some reference to Zulu he said and I just thought I don’t believe this is happening, what is he talking about and anyway so he you know took the account of what was happening as he was going and he said, ‘so are you a Rasta then?’ and I said yeah and he reached forward I can’t obviously show you the action so I’ll describe it so he reached forwards, put his hands out, touched my crown, my hat, my red gold and green, flopped it up and down and went ‘oh so is that locks you’ve got in there, is that what all this is?’ and was patting and said ‘it bounces’. I wanted to fight him I wanted to slap him I wanted to kick him out the house but again that was me on my own in my house with him so nothing to do with what he was there for, so although that doesn’t sound like it was a negative thing, he didn’t say but what gives him the right to touch my hat, my crown what give him the right, it was his, it was the look on his face it was the fact that he thought he could bounce, it was disrespectful I guess, I can’t show by words his actions but it was a disrespectful manner that he thought he’d got the power to do that, it had nothing to do with why he was there you know, I didn’t say to him ‘ooh what’s this a bald head then?’ then slap it on the top and pat it and say ‘ooh is this because you’re a baldy?’ because it’s something you don’t do. And just one of many, many incidents but stopped in the car to going to a get together, I was going to a women’s get together one evening, I don’t know why, he’s pulled up behind me, blocked my car I pulled up in front of me and got out because I thought I’m not doing anything, I’m in the area I live in St Anns, St Anns road just off Huntington Street, as it was back then as this was back in the day, a large portable hi fi and he says ‘what have you got the ghetto buster for then?’ I mean we can call it that if we want to but you know, and I thought one why’s he asking and it was just ridiculous and I remember he went round my car, he looked under my car, looked under the wheel arches checked the tax and you know just this, no particular reason you know I’m a woman I’m on my own, it was late at night and it was just ridiculous and that’s just one of a string of things you knowInterviewer:It’s like mini aggressionsEM:Yeah and it’s intimidationInterviewer:It’s not even mini is it reallyEM:No, no, no, it’s this and obviously I’m a calm person but you know when they do these things and things like ongoing like young black people, youth who don’t remain calm about it, that are upset and have experienced all of this negativity and police brutality, you know racism and they are at breaking point and they know that and they push them so then they can say that that’s it I’m arresting you, or you’re swearing at a police officer I’m arresting you. Not the fact that the police officer is pushing you the hardest that they can to get that response ‘I’m going to arrest you’ you know, make up his number for the night, it’s just appallingInterviewer:I mean what would be your advise to young people and, or anybody sort of facing these incidents with the policeEM:I say, you know to my sons, don’t give them what they expect you know, they see you as a guest, to be blunt and to quote what that man said ‘f***ing t**ts’, don’t give them that, don’t let them push you, don’t use language like he did there, don’t lower yourself, but that’s easier said than done when you’re angry with your friends, they’re delaying you, being stopped in your car on your own again on your way to somewhere, it’s the embarrassment of being out somewhere and you’re stopped as the only black person, there’s a you know, busy street of white people that then think oh there’s a black criminal because the police wouldn’t have just stopped them. So even at the end of it if they let you go you’ve been through this embarrassment, you’ve been through this intimidation. You’ve just been made to look a fool, you know and you’re late to what you were happily going about your business doing as a non criminalInterviewer:So thank you very much for your time ................
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