THE PHOENIX FILE - Internet Archive
THE PHOENIX FILE
Intructions:
POSTED BY DAVEYDEE:
|Geez... I think perhaps the mods should rename this: |
| |
|The H/Hr shippers mutual back-slapping thread. |
|Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post ) Can some H/Hr |
|shipper show me where does it show that Hermione loves Harry? |
Frankly GilyAnn - no. Because it doesn't.
It's spin-doctoring. Of the highest order mind you. But spin-doctoring nonetheless
Welcomed to another instalment of the infamous H/Hr-Files. This File is based on the Love-Threads at CoS-Forum. This is naturally a debate-thread between two or more opposite shippers. That’s why you’ll find in this file referring to persons who aren’t part of the HMS Harmony (H/Hr) they are marked with the colour purple. Its not said which ship they support but this isn’t important. In such a huge debate we used for each other nicknames which are shorter or lets say nicer as the original names for this a little instruction: Hawk refers to Hawk92, Mike refers to Mad Eye Mike, Grace or Greicy refers to Grace Grangers, Perdy refers to Perdita (Potter), Phoenix or FP refers to Flying Phoenix.
The Staff-Members or those in this file who support H/Hr are coloured in blue. Be aware this Essays were real posts in the Love-Thread book6 1-10 this means you’ll find English errors and some edit errors but as far as possible this file has been edited and made more readable. You’ll probably understand it’s a hard work to kill all errors but the most edit errors which were in this file due the CoS-Forum downtime are eliminated. In this file you can read 119 or better 118 Essays which are nicely done and very insightful. But be aware each Member, each Essay don’t represent all the same opinion but the same outcome says H/Hr. Each Member has his own idea but nevertheless as more you read as more you realise ideas, interpretations were and are driven further and deeper by each Members. Says if it did start with a casual review of OotP it ended with more and more insightful interpretations of canon. Ideas were took and to a new Essay formed.
This is how, why and when HMS Harmony really was born its based on this two files which cover all five books which were and are debated at the Love-Thread. This file shall help to understand there exist a H/Hr fundament, a very strong one and people believe in it.
I like to thank and honour everyone which work is in this file to be found but especially Turambar who archived all this posts and brought it into one file.
Please enjoy
FlyingPhoenix
(For HMS Harmony)
101 ESSAYS (in no particular order)
Essays:
1. Harry + Hermione - Ron by Mad Eye Mike
2. Initial thoughts by Lleyki
3. The road less travelled by Nia
4. When did Hermione realise her feelings by Sirius83
5. The long road to the beginning by Lleyki
6. Harry the old soul by Nia
7. Mirrored couples by Turambar
8. Future pairings by Nia
9. Initial thoughts by Perdita
10. Arguments against Harry/Ginny by Hawk92
11. Harry's feelings by Flying Phoenix
12. Signs of Harry's interest by Perdita
13. Possible pairings by Lleyki
14. Respect and love by Evaluna
15. Ginny explained by Earendil
16. Hermione's feelings of doubt by Sone
17. Gifts to Hermione by Hawk92
18. The debate over Sirius by Flying Phoenix
19. Analysis of Ron and Hermione's fights by Earendil
20. Interruptions by Hawk 92
21. Harry constantly thinks about Hermione by Perdita
22. Harry and the Love Room by Turambar
23. Hermione and looks by Earendil
24. When did Hermione start liking Harry by Turambar
25. A look at Literary patterns: Charms by Perdita
26. Favourite scenes by Turambar
27. Harry and Hermione's tension by Sone
28. Respect between the trio by Flying Phoenix
29. Psychology of love by BabyMars
30. Who is better Hermione or Ginny by Lleyki
31. Harry's tough road by Mar Dhea
32. Ron's development by Turambar
33. Teacups and chess by Mof
34. Runes and planets by Nia
35. Ginny has developed. So? by Turambar
36. Hermione: annoying or not by Flying Phoenix
37. Placement by Earendil
38. Are Harry and Ginny suited by Hope1272
39. The post-kiss scene by Sirius83
40. The post-kiss scene by Mad Eye Mike
41. Hermione shows more warmth for Harry by Lleyki
42. Hermione's fears for Harry by Flying Phoenix
43. The Gateway of Souls (the DOM Arch) and Alchemy by Evaluna
44. Reasons for supporting H/Hr by Lleyki
45. Harry growing up without love by Flying Phoenix
46. Luna, Lupin, the Moon, and the DoM Arch: How Pertaining to Harry? by Evaluna
47. A look back on the Yule Brawl by Flying Phoenix
48. Harry and Hermione look out for each other by Sone
49. How romance ties into the main plot by Sirius83
50. Hermione v Ginny by Lleyki
51. Harry and Hermione anti-heroes by Evaluna
52. Harry's dream by Sone
53. The Hippogriff and the Thestrals by Flying Phoenix
54. Hippogriffs and symbolism by Sirius83
55. The importance of love by Flying Phoenix
56. Physical contact a changing pattern by Turambar
57. Halloween love lost, love found by Flying Phoenix
58. How Hermione gets through to Harry by Sone
59. Hermione's connection to the Order by Evaluna
60. Signs of romance by Evaluna
61. The welcome scene by Turambar
62. Who is Hermione's type by Flying Phoenix
63. Hermione's attitude to Cho by Evaluna
64. The train scene by Hope1272
65. Hermione as Harry's light by Evaluna
66. Ron and Hermione's lack of respect by Evaluna
67. Approaches to defending Hermione by Cdelight
68. Ginny and Luna: Their Supporting Roles in Canon by Evaluna
69. Views in common by Sone
70. Unconditional acceptance by Evaluna
71. Does Ginny understand Harry by Flying Phoenix
72. Traditional roles in the H/Hr relationship by Earendil
73. Death and redemption by Noddwyd
74. Missed opportunities for R/Hr and H/G by Argog24
75. The prefect scene by Turambar
76. Ron's attitude to his friends by Nia
77. Harry, Hermione and the forces of nature by Noddwyd
78. Do Harry and Hermione 'see' anyone else by Sone
79. The importance of love by Nia
80. In the forest with Grawp by Turambar
81. Ginny the typical Weasley by Nia
82. Harry's reaction to the attack on Hermione in the DOM by Noddwyd
83. Cho vs Hermione by Perdita
84. Hermione as the female lead by Flying Phoenix
85. The way Harry and Hermione argue by Sone
86. The author's choices by Ebonyink
87. The Frodo/Harry parallel by Nia
88. Romantic imagery in OOTP by Perdita
89. The welcome scene by Flying Phoenix
90. Everyone's jealous of H/Hr by Sone
91. Hermione puts Harry first by Flying Phoenix
92. Future pairings by Turambar
93. Hermione's character assassination by Lleyki
94. Hermione and Sirius by Flying Phoenix
95. Who Harry wants and needs by Sirius83
96. Ron's neediness by Turambar
97. Hermione's feelings for Ron by Lleyki
98. Ron's suspicions of H/Hr by Flying Phoenix
99. H/Hr revisted in OOTP by EricaM
100. Ron the wildcard by Flying Phoenix
101. Ron and Luna by Hawk92
102. Harry, Hermione flying and love by Turambar
103. Symbolic harmony by Turambar
104. Ron, Hermione and the Yule Brawl by Sone
105. JKR and Jane Austen by Nia
106. The Viktor Krum theory by Hawk 92
107. Why does Ginny need Harry? by Sone
108. Strength and independence or how is right and who is easy by Turambar
109. I feel sorry for JKR by Mad Eye Mike
110. How H/Hr make R/Hr and H/G impractical by Turambar
111. Why Hermione is not the right girl for Ron by Lleyki
112. Harry, just Harry by Flying Phoenix
113. Why would Hermione prefer Ron to Harry by Turambar
114. Indications pointing to H/Hr by Turambar
115. The meaning of platonic by BlackKnight 86
116. Why JKR is headed for H/Hr by Nia
117. Harry tries to impress Hermione by Polaris 15
118. H/Hr love, flying and quidditch updated by Turambar
119. What does Ron want by Nia
Harry + Hermione - Ron by Mad Eye Mike
The following essay will illustrate how Harry and Hermione always experience the most crucial and perilous situations together without Ron. It will lay bare how H/Hr always end up sharing an intense emotional encounter - alone - and how that strengthens the bond between them. It will show Ron’s presence being lessened more and more with each passing book, how we’re being weaned off him slowly, why R/Hr aren’t being set-up as a couple and ultimately, how H/Hr are.
Philosopher’s Stone/Sorcerer’s Stone:
The trio’s very first adventure established what was to come in later books. After Ron’s eliminated from the chess match, H/Hr continued forward to the last test - potions. The test itself wasn’t the ‘fail and you get to do it over’ kind either, it had life or death consequences attached - pretty stressful stuff for a couple of eleven year olds. Before being forced to leave Harry, Hermione’s lip trembled, she threw herself onto him, hugged him and finally allowed let her emotional wall come down. Now if the characters had been older, like 18 instead of 11, this would've been a very romantic moment between them. The scene of a girl (near tears) throwing herself onto a boy and embracing him before he sets off to possibly face his death evokes some very powerful imagery. However, if JKR has been setting up R/Hr from the beginning (as some r/hr shippers say), why didn’t she have Hermione stay behind to take care of Ron while Harry moved forward by himself? For the first time, H/Hr are given the spotlight alone, together to face a perilous circumstance.
Note #1 - This is the first time Ron was separated from H/Hr but it was cleverly disguised as the classic ‘Heroes Best Friend Sacrifices Himself’ scene. However, take notice of how neither Harry nor Hermione felt the need to check on Ron who sacrificed himself. Harry even had to convince himself Ron was okay because he wasn’t really sure if Ron was dead or not. Literally and symbolically, H/Hr looked back at Ron while they continued forward together.
Note #2 - Take a closer look at the pieces each of the trio replaces and play as during the chess game. Ron’s a Knight, Hermione’s a Rook and Harry’s a Bishop.
The Knight (Ron) moves in an ‘L’ shape in any direction. While the Rook and Bishop can move freely around the board (in their respective directions), the Knight is limited to only two square jumps - one forward, one diagonal. This parallels Ron’s place in the trio as he’s also limited in how far his abilities will take him.
The Rook (Hermione) moves horizontally and vertically any number of squares forwards and backwards. Incidentally, this powerful piece is the only one that can perform the ‘Castling’ maneuver - a move that’s sole purpose is to protect the King from harm (Hermione protects Harry).
The Bishop (Harry) moves diagonally any number of squares forward or backwards. By nature of its movements, the Bishop is the perfect companion piece to the Rook. Together they can cover the entire length of the board and all squares.
Now I just want to point out one last piece - The Queen. This is the most powerful piece in the game as it can move horizontally, vertically, diagonally, forwards and backwards any number of squares. The Queen is basically the Rook (Hermione) and Bishop (Harry) combined into one piece. Something else to keep in mind - it was the Queen that took Ron out of the game.
Chamber of Secrets:
This is the book where H/Hr began to intellectually separate themselves from Ron and the start of their ‘mental connection’ where they instinctively know what the other is thinking. Jointly, H/Hr were able to piece together the mystery involving Tom Riddle, the Chamber, the Diary and the Basilisk. Here’s where we first saw Ron wasn’t on the same level as H/Hr and as they continued to figure things out, Ron was more and more baffled as to what was going on. The only thing he did contribute was in remembering he saw Riddle’s name on a trophy. Ron was even left behind with Lockhart when he and Harry reached the Chamber. Couldn’t JKR have involved Ron in a more significant way? It was his sister (Ginny) trapped down there and dying after all. JKR made something perfectly clear with this book and that’s when Hermione isn’t with Harry, he’s going to have to continue on alone in one form or another. In this case, it was in every way.
Note #3 - During the last night in the Great Hall, the text (clearly from Harry’s POV) described how Hermione came running towards him screaming “You did it! You solved it!”. Notice how JKR doesn’t have Hermione include Ron by saying something like “You both solved it!”.
Prisoner of Azkaban:
This may be the quintessential H/Hr moment of the series thus far. It contains everything - emotion, fear, friendship and symbolism all rolled into one extended sequence. This was the book (until OotP) where Ron’s lack of importance and presence became most evident. Beginning with Dumbledore telling Hermione ”Three turns should do it”, H/Hr proceed to go on an incredible adventure together which completely dominated the tale from that point on. For the third straight time, JKR completely removed Ron rather than finding a way to involve him. Once again, Ron didn’t get to share in the terrifying and jubilant moments H/Hr experienced together. First H/Hr traveled back in time to save Buckbeat from execution. Then they spent three hours alone together in the woods talking quietly. Then they watch as the situation from earlier when Pettigrew got away played out before them. Then Harry confided in Hermione he thought he saw his father (something Harry was incredibly embarrassed about admitting by the way). Then Harry saved himself, Sirius and Hermione from the Dementors when he finally produced a Patronus. Finally, it was H/Hr who took a ride on a Hippogriff to save Sirius. In the end, after all was said and done, it was Harry and Hermione whom saved the day, once again, without Ron.
Note #4 - Did you know the Hippogriff represents love in mythology? Think of the imagery and literary theme that JKR presented by having Harry and Hermione ride on it to save the day. In terms of symbolism, it doesn’t get any more fairy tale and romantic than that.
Note #5 - When writing down predictions for his future, Ron jokingly says he will get trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff (crushed by love?).
Goblet of Fire:
When Harry lost Ron’s friendship, the schools support and encountered the negative side of fame for the first time in his life, Hermione stood by him. When the public (and Molly) began targeting Hermione for supposedly playing with Harry and Krum’s hearts, Harry stood by her. It was a curious bit of writing by JKR to make it so when H/Hr finally experienced rumors and innuendo for the first time in their lives, all they had were each other to lean on for emotional support. Ron was still too bitter towards Harry and too busy giving Hermione a hard time about Krum to be an effective friend to either of them. Also noteworthy is how JKR wrote it so H/Hr practiced the summoning charm alone together - the very charm which saved Harry’s life later. As GoF went on, H/Hr grew closer and the gap that already separated them from everyone else was widened. Emotionally, intellectually and magically, Harry and Hermione continued progressing together forward while Ron lagged behind yet again. With all the focus on the Yule Ball and dating, one of the key aspects often overlooked is how JKR yet again divided the trio during a time of stress. While Ron was off losing control of his emotions, JKR proceeded to develop the bond between H/Hr to the point where it became absolute.
Note #6 - Ron once again made the prediction of getting trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff.
Note #7 - In the time she spent with Krum, Hermione talked about Harry so much that Krum suspected there was more going on between H/Hr than friendship. One of the classic examples of having subconscious feelings for someone is when you talk about them non-stop to other people.
Note #8 - No matter how much hate mail she got or taunts she endured, Hermione never denied the rumors she was Harry’s girlfriend.
Note #9 - Ron at one point actually asked Hermione if she was brewing love potions. It’s possible even Ron has noticed the H/Hr connection. If not, why else would he asks such a thing?
Order of the Phoenix:
There are three - count ‘em - three separate occasions in OotP where Harry and Hermione go on together without Ron.
A. With Hagrid to see Grawp
B. Leading Umbridge to the Centaurs
C. In the Department of Mysteries
A. In the first instance, JKR had Harry and Hermione go with Hagrid to see Grawp. Now, what’s interesting is how this took place during Ron’s big moment. That was the day Ron helped Griffindor win the Quidditch Cup and it was written to have both Harry and Hermione miss it. I can totally understand why Hagrid went to get Harry, but did Hermione really need to go as well? Especially since it was the perfect opportunity to have her stay behind and watch the guy she’s supposedly in love with play in an important game. If R/Hr are being set-up to be together, why didn’t JKR have Harry go on alone with Hagrid while Hermione stood behind to watch Ron win the cup? That was a perfect opportunity to showcase a R/Hr moment and yet, it didn’t happen. Instead we were given another intense emotional experience for H/Hr to share together while Ron was absent.
Note #10 - The text describes a shaking and whimpering Hermione clinging to Harry as he protects her from Grawp’s outstretched hand. Try to picture the image of a terrified Hermione being protected in Harry’s arms. Not very platonic looking is it?
B. In the next example, JKR had Harry, Hermione and Umbridge enter the forest to go look for Dumbledore’s ‘weapon’. What followed was another potentially fatal situation for H/Hr and Ron was nowhere to be found - this time he was bound and gagged on the floor in Umbridge’s office. True he wasn’t the only one as Neville, Ginny and Luna were also left behind, but none of them are as important as Ron are they? Ginny and Luna haven’t been in all five books and Neville has never really been important to the plot until now. Point is, they’re not part of the trio - Ron is. Yet, it’s Harry and Hermione alone who shared another intense emotional experience under not only the threat of Umbridge, but the Centaurs as well. Couldn’t JKR have found a way for Ron to play a part in this? No, it’s written so that he shows up with Ginny, Neville and Luna well after it was all over.
Note #11 - When the Centaurs attack Umbridge, Harry grabs Hermione and pulls her down to the ground. JKR could’ve simply written it to have H/Hr duck for cover, but she doesn’t.
C. The Department of Mysteries is the last of the three instances where Harry and Hermione proceeded without Ron. When running away from the DE’s, the six kids split up into two groups of three. Now what’s interesting here is JKR didn’t split the trio away from the new kids, no instead she split up the trio. What’s even more interesting (for you H/G shippers) is that it was the perfect opportunity for Ginny to take center stage and be showcased as Harry’s future partner in crime so to speak, but it didn’t happen. Nor was it written to have R/Hr work together as a finely tuned team. Instead JKR gave us yet another instance where H/Hr worked together or were together in a life-threatening situation. When Ron disappeared, he remained missing in action for quite a while and when he finally reappeared, he had already been rendered useless. Consequently, he almost got himself killed when he released a brain from its tank and was nearly strangled by its thoughts.
Note #12 - Wasn’t it rather symbolic that Ron (who is viewed upon as the comic relief of the trio) was incapacitated by some sort of laughing spell and then began fighting with a brain (Hermione?) which began suffocating him? I love Ginny’s line of “Harry, it’ll suffocate him!” - perhaps this is a symbolic text reference to a R/Hr relationship?
Note #13 - When everyone first ran from the DE’s, Harry reached back and grabbed for Hermione’s robes to drag her forward. Interesting how it wasn’t written for him to grab for Ginny or to have Ron grab for Hermione. Instinctively, subconsciously, the one Harry reached out to grab and protect was Hermione. There are five other people Harry could’ve grabbed (including his supposed intended Ginny), and yet, JKR had him reach for Hermione.
Conclusion:
Now if this had only happened once or twice in five books then I could easily write it off. In literature however, patterns, themes and symbolism are relevant and with someone like JKR who uses all three, you have to look closely. What is JKR hoping to establish by constantly having H/Hr bond without Ron? Regardless of whether the threat was an emotional or physical one, Harry and Hermione continue to experience and share all these extraordinary moments together. Why is JKR writing it that way?
Now assuming the trio survives their seventh year, don’t you think Ron is going to feel left out? Try to imagine being Ron for a second. Its after you’ve graduated Hogwarts and Voldemort has been defeated. Every wizard and witch in the world is going to want to talk to the people who helped bring him down. Harry will be bigger than a legend, so will Hermione and everyone else who played a part. However, considering it was always H/Hr together (in some form) who defeated Voldemort and his DE’s time and time again, it’ll be H/Hr who’ll be in demand for interviews, discussions, teaching posts, etc. Yes Ron did play a small part in some of these adventures, but at a certain point, he can’t talk anymore because he wasn’t there to share in the full experience with H/Hr.
Now can you imagine Ron dating Hermione and she’s always being asked to do a joint interview with Harry talking about all the times they worked together to triumph over Voldemort? How do you think Ron is going to feel about that? He might mature as he gets older but eventually, this will get to him. No significant other likes to see their partner share in the experience of all these adventures with someone else. Worst of all for Ron, there’s no one to blame. Harry’s not at fault, Hermione’s not at fault and neither is Ron. He just wasn’t there to share in what H/Hr went through and that’s the way it is. I can just see a day in the future where the three of them do an interview with the Daily Prophet and it goes something like this:
Reporter: So, tell us how you first defeated Voldemort’s plan for returning.
Harry: Well, we found out he was after the Sorcerer’s Stone.
Hermione: Yeah, it was hidden at Hogwarts.
Reporter: Rumor has it the stone was well guarded. How did you three get to it?
Harry: Well, we had to pass four test in order to get to the stone.
Reporter: What kind of tests?
Hermione: Herbology, Charms, Transfiguration and Potions.
Harry: If it wasn’t for Hermione, I never would’ve gotten pass the potions test. See, there were only two correct choices. One allowed you to move forward, the other allowed to go back.
Reporter: Only two? So how did you get back Ron?
Ron: Oh, um…I got knocked out in chess game before that.
Reporter: I see. So Harry, tell us about the Chamber in your second year, legend has it you took on a Basilisk all by yourself.
Harry: Well, I never would’ve found it if it weren’t for Hermione. She’s the one who figured out it was traveling through the pipes.
Reporter: Really Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well, I only helped, it was Harry who figured out where the chamber entrance was, took on Riddle solo and saved Ginny.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, where were you?
Ron: I went with Harry into the chamber but we got separated when the roof caved in so I got stuck behind with Prof Lockhart.
Reporter: I see. Now Harry, tell us about your third year when you took on a heap of Dementors.
Harry: Well, I owe everything to Professor Lupin. He’s the one who taught me how to produce a Patronus.
Reporter: But didn’t you and Miss Granger break wizard law and travel back in time?
Harry: Um, yeah we did. See, Hermione had this Time Turner that Professor McGonagall gave her because she was taking so many classes that year. It allowed us to travel back, save both a Hippogriff named Buckbeat and my late Godfather Sirius Black from execution as well as our past selves.
Reporter: Hermione, you must’ve been one responsible 13 year old to be given a time turner?
Hermione: Well, Professor McGonagall always trusted in me so yeah, I guess.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, what was it like to travel back in time?
Ron: Oh well, uh…I had my leg broken and was knocked out in the hospital when all this happened so I didn’t get to go.
Reporter: I see. Well Harry, what about the night when Voldemort returned in your forth year. Tell us, how did you escape him and all those DE’s?
Harry: Well it’s like I’ve said many times before, I used the Accio charm to summon the portkey over to me and that’s how I got away.
Reporter: Good thing you paid attention in Charms class huh?
Harry: Actually, it was Hermione who taught me that spell.
Reporter: Is that so Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well yes you see. I originally taught it to Harry so he could get pass the first task in the TWT which involved fire-breathing dragons. He needed a spell that would allow him to summon his Firebolt broomstick.
Reporter: Ah I see, I see. So tell us Ron, what was it like helping teach Harry the summoning spell? Was he a quick learner?
Ron: Actually, at that time Harry and I had a falling out and weren’t speaking to each other so I wouldn’t know.
Reporter: I see. Anyway Harry, the night the world found out Voldemort returned, tell us, how did you and your friends ever escape from Delores Umbridge?
Harry: Well, actually, it was all Hermione’s brilliant plan.
Reporter: Oh really? Tell us Miss Granger, how did you escape from that awful woman?
Hermione: Well I remember she went to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry and I just couldn’t let that happen, so I lied and told her we were keeping a weapon for Professor Dumbledore hidden in the forest.
Reporter: Why did you say that?
Hermione: Well, earlier we had been in the forest when we discovered the Centaurs no longer wanted humans in there. So I figured if we went deep enough into the woods, they’d drive Umbridge away for us.
Reporter: That was smart. But wait. Why were you in the forbidden forest?
Harry: Hagrid took us there to meet his brother Grawp and that’s when we learned the Centaurs were angry with humans.
Reporter: Interesting. And what was Grawp like Mr. Weasley?
Ron: Um, actually, I was playing in a Quidditch match. I didn’t go with them to met Hagrid’s brother.
Reporter: I see, so it was just you and Hermione alone Harry?
Harry: And Hagrid.
Reporter: Yes of course, and Hagrid. So getting back to that night, did your plan work Miss Granger? Did the Centaurs drive Umbridge away?
Hermione: Oh yes they did, but they almost killed us as well.
Reporter: Heavens! Were you scared?
Hermione: Oh goodness yes! I had no idea what to say.
Reporter: Harry?
Harry: Yeah, I was scared too.
Reporter: And what about you Ron?
Ron: Er…I wasn’t there with them.
Reporter: Oh no? where were you?
Ron: I was back in Umbridge’s office gagged and tied up on the floor.
Reporter: I see. Well, thank you three for your time.
You see what I’m talking about? If JKR stays with this theme of Ron being separated, he’ll never truly be able to share in Harry and Hermione’s experiences. H/Hr will forever be linked - especially if they succeed in taking down Voldemort. Unless JKR makes Ron a big time hero in the next two books (which would be stupid but not totally out of the question considering the whole ‘prefect’ nonsense in OotP), he’s always going to be the third wheel. Now I know what you some of you r/hr shippers are saying “Well, a tricycle has three wheels and that’s what the trio is.” That analogy doesn’t apply to the trio and I’ll explain why. On a tricycle, you usually have one big front wheel (Harry) and two supporting wheels (R/Hr). If any of the wheels break off, the tricycle collapses and ceases to function. In the above examples, when Ron broke off, H/Hr continued just fine. They were still able to peddle forward without the third wheel. What kind of tricycle only needs two wheels? Well the answer isn’t a tricycle at all, it’s a bicycle.
For those of you now saying ”Oh, but I’ve seen three wheeled bicycles.” Yeah, but on those bikes, all the wheels are equally important. That’s not the case with the trio. Though Harry is the star of the books, within them, Hermione is every bit his equal as a character and student. Even JKR has said ‘Harry needs Hermione badly’. Ron is neither the star nor equal as a character, student, in ability, etc. For those of you thinking the trio’s more like a triangle, once again it doesn’t apply. When was the last time you saw a two-sided triangle? You know what a triangle is with on side missing? A right angle.
The fact of the matter is this, in every book, JKR has continued her pattern of turning the trio of H/Hr/R into the couple of H/Hr. When presented with every opportunity to truly show off some great R/Hr or H/G moment, JKR hasn’t taken it. Now ask yourself, why? JKR has said she wants to write her characters realistically. Now in real life, when two people go through an intense emotional experience together, they usually form a bond in some way. It doesn’t necessarily always lead to romance but a bond is formed nonetheless. Just look at all H/Hr have been through. Now look at what H/R have been through. Now look at what R/Hr have been through. Now look at what H/G have been through. Doesn’t even come close does it? JKR has made Harry and Hermione so far ahead of everyone else that at this point, there is no other suitable person for them.
I’m sorry to all other shippers out there, but for true love to happen, a foundation must first be set. Ginny just truly ‘developed’ in book 5 - maybe not in your personal view, but in Harry’s eyes and his view is the only one that matters. He’s never noticed Ginny before, he hasn’t gone through anything with her (Chamber doesn’t count as she was knocked out. She wasn’t awake helping him fight the Basilisk or Riddle) and he doesn’t have any type of bond or shared experience with Ginny. OotP confirms this as even after Ginny makes her comment about being possessed, Harry doesn’t go and talk to her about what she experienced or what it was like. Perfect opportunity there for some H/G bonding and it doesn’t occur.
Hermione needs an equal partner and unfortunately, Ron is not that person. In no way shape or form is he on Hermione’s level. Not in maturity, intellect or magical ability. To date Ron would be a step down for Hermione. Honestly, he doesn’t accept Hermione for who she is nor does he respect what she believes in (S.P.E.W). He snaps at her for no reason (Corresponding with Krum via owl post is a crime?) and his normal attitude towards her is rude (Hermione very clearly says this in OotP). Why would a girl like Hermione - smart, beautiful and strong - want to date Ron? In every way imaginable, she exceeds him and as we see in OotP, the only thing they share is time waiting for Harry. This isn’t meant as Ron bashing, but the hard truth is that JKR has simply not written Ron that way.
Ron represents the normal kid in the trio and everyone acknowledges that. Problem is, JKR has made him so normal, he’s almost unimportant now as OotP demonstrated. Harry and Hermione are equal in just about everything - magic ability, intellect and experience. If they were to pair up in a contest against other students, there’s no one their age that can match up against them. Hell, H/Hr have even outsmarted DE’s - much less regular wizards. JKR has written the H/Hr relationship in such a way that realistically, they’ll never be satisfied with anyone else. In every way possible, it’s quite clear that Harry Potter and Hermione Granger were literally made for each other.
(FP) By the way if we are by this number three are now than let see how often were H/Hr alone in the Forrest without Ron.
1: PS/SS detention with Hagrid
2: OotP visit grawp
3: OotP trap for Umbridge
POA don't count because they were only on the edge of the forrest the other times in the forrest.
(Turambar) Mike: just on the chess
The knight is the romantic/tragic figure putting himself in harm's way, often falling in battle, working for a higher lord
The bishop suggests soul and power with a secure base and in earlier times they were politically powerful
The rook/castle again suggests power and security.
Initial thoughts by Lleyki
Okay was the romance in the book all I was expecting? Well honestly, no. Considering the hormone-fuelled, boy-girl interactions there was in GOF, I thought she might have played on it some more. However this book; with the exception of the H/C thing; reverted to the manner in which they were pre-GOF. In other words there were subtle hints and moments of possible pairings but nothing too concrete. However I can't say I minded. Considering the dark tone and themes of the book, I found that what was there was enough. GOF in my view seemed to have been a little too concentrated on the theme of boy-girl interactions which in my view took away from the main plot and only served to stir and incite those vicious shipping wars online. After reading OOTP I'm more convinced of JK loving to spin her readers in circles (and I love her for it). After three years of debates, online fights, reading between EVERY line, etc. she left us a book that had more questions than answers. Also after reading the book, I really do believe Jk's serious about reading those forums. There were MANY times where it felt like she was out rightly commenting on an idea or issue that had been raised in these forums. More on that in a minute. Now onto the different ships;
R/Hr- Ahh Ron and Hermione. The match made in literary heaven according to millions of fans of the books. This pair had their one or two moments (most of which were really comments made by other characters) but for the most part they remained as they left off in GOF. Ron likes Hermione but Lord knows if she returns those feelings I must be the blindest person alive; cause I have YET to see it. About the few moments; let's see. Harry on more than one occasion refers to Ron and Hermione as resembling Mr and Mrs Weasley. I'm sure fans of the pair loved that and by all means go on and squeal as much as you want. However, my problem with this comparison, was the way Mr and Mrs Weasley's relationship was presented in the book. Mr. Weasley came off as a man who has grown weary of disagreeing with his much louder, domineering wife so he just agrees with her because it's too much trouble and effort to stand up to her. Witness his reaction to her asking his opinion when Sirius wanted to tell Harry what was going on.
In that respect, Ron and Hermione were a little like Mr and Mrs Weasley. I'm sorry but there were many times where Ron came off in this book as just THERE. The thing many persons seemed to think was the core of R/Hr (the arguments of course) was pretty much gone. Yes, they had a few little pointless spats at the start of the books but they came off as forced and tired and to be perfectly honest; when Harry told them to shut up I was in whole-hearted agreement. In terms of that pair, OOTP left me with the feeling that Hermione would dominate Ron if they were ever to have a relationship and if one looks closely, you'll notice that in many ways Harry dominates him in their friendship. One of the main reasons I say this (about Hermione dominating Ron) is the way she talks to him. I love Hermione and that is my girl and I HATE when persons try to make her out to be this cold, unfeeling person as some do on this board. However, even I can say that there were times when Hermione spoke to Ron and I would literally wince.
One striking example for me is when Harry's discussing his Occlumency class and describes feeling worse after it. Ron suggests Snape may be using the class to manipulate Harry and Hermione's reaction is rather harsh. JK describes the scene with her saying "shut up" angrily. Now I agree that Ron has been calling Snape a villain in EVERY book but still that was pretty harsh. Now what I have noticed is that Hermione NEVER speaks to Harry like that. She'll disagree with him, she'll stand up to him but she will NOT speak to him like that and this is nothing to do with romance but plain, old simple respect. Hermione DOES NOT respect Ron like she respects Harry and I'm sorry but that is important to a relationship. Don't tell me they're kids, so that makes it okay. These kids are 15 not 5 so that does not fly with me. Now their biggest moment of course being the kiss on the cheek. Ah yes Double Standards again. So NOW it's romantic huh? I guess persons will argue that Ron hadn't been through a stressful situation like Harry so it wasn't necessary and thus that makes it romantic. That's not really true because while Ron's problems may not have been as intense as Harry's it was pretty big to him at the time. The boy was terrified of going out on that pitch and something needed to be done to calm him down or at least distract him. Ron's reaction was intense but really people are we still debating Ron liking Hermione? I think not. There was an interesting end to the moment however. While Hermione kissing Harry was purely an isolated Harry and Hermione moment; JK chose to end this moment with Ron and Hermione with Hermione turning to Harry and then leaving a rather unfinished sentence. Clever and cruel that woman is.
H/G- Ginny got a personality folks (let's all cheer) and what do you know; this little ship actually has some solid water to float on now. I say "now" because I'm sorry, no matter how much so-called romantic imagery and foreshadowing H/G shippers said there was, I refused to acknowledge this pairing unless there was some REAL interactions between the two. That said, as happy as I was that the girl had some significant purpose in this book, she still was not THAT interesting to me. Yes, yes I could see Ginny fans fuming right now. I'm sorry but this is just my view and Ginny simply came off as nothing more than a typical 14year old. There really was little amazing or special about the character and at times she simply seemed like a diluted version of the twins though not nearly as entertaining or engaging. It's nothing against the character and I applaud JK for making the effort to make her worthwhile but honestly; Luna stole the girl's spotlight for me. I LOVE, LOVE this girl, but more on that later. Also, while it was great to see Ginny being a personality in her own right and as Harry put it "talking now", I still felt little to no chemistry between the two. The scene in the library was warm and cute but that was about it. That said, as I stated before; at least the ship now has solid possibility. Harry obviously and naturally feels more comfortable around her, since she is "over" him and they'll be team-mates next year so that should be interesting. Now I put over in quotation marks because I don't believe Ginny is over her feelings for Harry. I think as Hermione said she "gave up" on him; meaning she simply accepted that she will never have him and decided to move on with her life. The two are separate things.
H/C- This was utterly disappointing in my view. Yes I DIDNOT expect this to last but JK's treatment of this relationship (if one can call it that) was just silly. I agree that the relationship is dead now. Personally I always felt Cho represented that girl who you have the first crush on and first kiss but not some great, emotionally connected relationship. Yes I didn’t expect Cho to be perfect because we always saw her through Harry's eyes and the boy was biased because he liked her. However the whole thing seemed rushed and completely lacklustre. One got the impression that JK figured she needed to deal with the Cho thing so she made this quick "relationship" to get it out of the way. We never knew Cho but the girl always seemed quite nice and normal. This girl was lacklustre, whiny, annoying and basically in OOTP Jk made the girl have almost no good moment. I just thought it was unnecessarily sad and badly written.
N/G- I like this pair. My heart broke for Neville when the kids saw him at the hospital with his parents. Some help was given to the pair with Ginny's immediate and vehement defence of Neville when he called himself nobody. He's slowly coming into his own and the two seem to be really good friends; so good for them if it happens. That's as much as I can say for this pair because being that this is Harry's story we're not as privy to their lives as other pairings. However once again I like the pair.
R/L- Can I just say again how much I LOVE this girl? That JK could create a new character this late in the series and make her such an interesting one that was able to hold her own; is definite proof of the woman's talent. Well Luna obviously seems to be interested in Ron (man Ron can't seem to get away from the Ravenclaw girls, can he?) but we know it's definitely not returned. However I like this pair. Luna is weird enough to keep Ron entertained and certainly never bored. Plus she won't dominate him. A huge problem though is that Ron seems very concerned about what others think and let's face it; Luna is a bit of joke in the school and dating her really wouldn't be big for Ron's "image". However it would certainly be interesting to see.
H/L- Like I said I love her and never thought I would be okay with Harry being with anyone but Hermione but this wouldn't bug me much. The scene at the end when Luna is putting up the notice for her things is one of the saddest and most heart-breaking things in the book for me. However just because Harry felt better after speaking to her doesn't mean much to the possibility of them being together. Luna supplied something that Harry needed at THAT moment and that's all. While again I wouldn't be as bothered by the pair, there's a significant problem in that Harry does not like Luna and she feels the same. However I don't care who she ends up with as long as I see more of her in the next book.
H/Hr- Oh dear. Quite the little complicated pair. Harry and Hermione remained as platonic as ever but as usual had enough little moments/comments to leave you going "I wonder". Most of those little things coming courtesy of dear old Hermione.
(a) Prefect scene- Man oh man, can you say putting your foot in your mouth? I'm sorry but where did ANYONE see R/Hr in that moment? The girl came busting in and took one look at Harry with the badge and burst into how she knew it. Someone was obviously expecting this a lot. Then she compounds the moment by asking Harry if he was sure when he says its Ron's badge; naturally causing Ron to be defensive. Then Jk further expounds the moment by leaving Harry and Hermione alone in the room and highlighting it. Harry can't look at Hermione and you get a sense that he is bothered by somehow failing in her eyes. Hermione's sad but doesn't know what best to say. In terms of writing that was a really beautiful and tender scene.
(b) Hermione's reaction to H/C's relationship- She certainly seemed the supportive friend and really why shouldn't she? If Hermione had gotten angry and all catty with Cho all of sudden; she might as well as painted a sign on her face saying, "I like Harry". The best thing was to be the good friend, which she was. The suspicious moment with Hermione however, came courtesy the immediate scene after the kiss between Harry and Cho. Hermione's reaction was rather interesting to say the least. It didn't tally with the supportive friend she was for the rest of the relationship. The first thing was how abruptly she asked if Cho had cornered him and that in itself was interesting. Cornered? She made the girl sound rather calculating. Then her tone goes brisk, businesslike and vague. Hermione seemed to be impatient with the way she said, "Did you kiss" like get on with it already. However once she gets immersed in her letter and time goes by (maybe she calms down, that's speculation) she goes into understanding mode. I don't believe Hermione tried to ruin Harry's date. I believe Hermione figured Harry liked Cho and needed to decide for himself whether she was right for him or not. Another interesting moment in terms of the H/C relationship is when she asks Harry about him and Cho after the secret meeting in Hogsmeade. Harry asks why and she answers slightly smiling, staring directly at him that Cho couldn't keep her eyes off him. How would she be so aware of this? It seems that Hermione was watching Cho watch Harry and why would she care SO much? Yes she cares for him and wants him to be happy but really, is so much interest really necessary?
(c) Simple, subtle things continued. Her reactions to him in dangerous situations. Again in the MOM when nervous, she grabbed him, even with Ron her supposed crush being there. Her surprising disappointment in his not wanting to help her with her hats (although why she even asked is beyond me.) Her reaction to their presents. Why Jk felt the need (when she has never done it) to make a distinct point in Hermione's different reactions to the boy’s gifts is beyond me. All I can say is it was not flattering to Ron. Harry's visions in Occlumency is interesting. I would have expected Harry to see Ginny and the chamber (just for how dramatic it was) and at least one thing about Ron. I was surprised and rather confused by the memory of Hermione as a cat and all the way back in second year; of all things. Then there was Cho's envy and fear of Hermione, which as much as I love the pair was rather silly. Harry barely said two words about Hermione and the girl was freaking out. What was interesting though is that JK felt the need to work this angle AGAIN. Let's face it; she already did this with Krum and now here's Cho now bothered by Hermione as Krum was bothered by Harry. Why, why if these two are so platonic, so not a possibility are these people threatened by them? Interesting.
Obviously Harry does not like Hermione but something interesting developed in this book. Harry all of a sudden has a thing about being a failure in Hermione's eyes. We saw it after the prefect scene when he couldn't meet her eyes and after he gets the D in Potions and they're discussing grades; when the twins mention T, his first thought is how hard it would be to hide from Hermione if he got all T's and so he'd better start working harder. When has Harry ever worried so much about Hermione's opinions of him in terms of grades and school? Of course he won't wonder why he cares so much; cause let's face it Harry is too pre-occupied with other issues to analyse his love life. He'll just see it as I don't want her to know I failed and leave it at that.
The road less travelled by Nia
I, by the way, ship Harry/Hermione. I see a very definite foundation which has its roots in mythology, literature and esoteric sources. This kind of relationship is also common to Jane Austen's writing, one of JKR's favourite authors. Austen's primary romantic pairing is generally kept a mystery (with subtle clues tossed in along the way) until the end of the book.
The development of Harry and Hermione is subtle and deft too and, because it does not shout and make its presence strongly felt, as most romances in contemporary media shout, it is not as apparent as say, Ron and Hermione, who are literally shouting at each other. I believe that Harry and Hermione's relationship transcends banal "chemistry" and simple physical attraction to become spiritual. That is something we definitely do not see a lot of in today's literature. Both are deeply complicated individuals with very "old" souls. It is this spiritual element that is so attractive to me and I truly believe it is in keeping with the overriding theme of the septology.
I can also see groundwork for Ron and Hermione if, for some reason JKR is not thinking quite as lofty as I presume. There are obvious clues (open to various interpretations) to this relationship should JKR choose to write it, but I would be very, very disappointed if she should select such a hackneyed, predictable romantic path rather than taking 'the road less travelled.'
I see no basis for Harry and Ginny in canon at all. True, Ginny is now suddenly quite "all that," but for all her development, I find her very young, very much fourteen and very full of fourteen-year-old ideas. She and Harry are abominably mismatched in my opinion. In addition to this, I feel that they have never connected on anything but the most superficial of levels. Again, if JKR wants to write a trite fairy tale and pair off Harry and Ginny, that is her affair, but, my opinion is that it will seem contrived, no matter how much 'development' she gives Ginny in the next two books. Youthful characters should grow into their place of empowerment. The development should be as gradual and organic in literature as it is in real life, no matter how long the book. We simply do not see enough real development on Ginny's part for her to be a suitable mate for a boy who literally has the fate of the world resting on his shoulders. Quite simply put, Harry is too deep and complicated an individual for a merry, youthful soul like Ginny.
As with everyone on this thread, my shipping views are firmly grounded in my views on love. I believe love is more than seeing someone is cute and capable, those superficial attributes only appeal to the eyes. Physical beauty cannot reach a soul--only another soul can do that. I believe Harry and Hermione are soul mates--that their respective oddities make them see things from a similar perspective. As for the romance between these two, I feel it is only a matter of realization, mostly on Harry 's part, before they become a couple.
Modern literature and other forms of entertainment media DO NOT deal with true emotional depth in romance. This is especially true of young adult literature. We generally see couples’ romantic difficulties then a big ‘getting together scene’ at the end.
We are deceived if we are duped into thinking this is what will make for a beautiful life because the big scene at the end is, in reality, only the beginning of a relationship--unless the couple already had a platonic (classical definition) history of close interaction. We are always left with the impression that the couple will live together happily for the remainder of their lives. In other words, we see Eros love, (romantic, physical attraction) but we see no depth or development of their relationship.
The general consensus seems to be that couples who genuinely love each other, who can get along with each other and work together peacefully are dreadfully boring. I refer you to comments on the shipping “Death Thread” over at Fiction Alley. “Harry and Hermione are sooooo BORING,” is a comment you hear quite a bit.
The ‘road less travelled’ from my perspective-someone who does read young adult fiction literally all of the time-is a meaningful, youthful relationship that is NOT based in sniping, petty jealousies, getting him (or her) to notice how great the other is, or the superficiality of outward appearances. The world of young adult fiction sincerely needs contemporary books that feature romances based in mutual respect and deep, honest caring. In other words, agape love, (selfless love) and phillio (deep friendship.) as well as Eros which has always been there. It has not been done much in children’s lit since the early 1970’s because people perceive it as corny and sentimental.
Should JKR write Ron/Hermione romance in canon, it will be so similar to so many other young adult books I’ve read. Boy likes girl, hides it behind blustering and criticism, eventually reveals his love. End of story, yadda, yadda, yadda. Should she write Harry/Ginny, it would be worse because they share no common history, no depth of understanding.
In the now famous 12 Grimmauld Place scene where Ginny supposedly brings Harry out of his depression. The thing that made Harry separate from the Weasley’s was his feeling that he was unclean. In CoS, Ginny expressed somewhat of the same feeling-that something was wrong with her, that she was 'unclean.' It made her reclusive and depressed. She KNOWS how that feels. Even though their experiences are very different, Harry feels unclean, she felt unclean. Yet she cannot make the connection. Her remarks to Harry are superficial-an uncomplicated young person’s remarks. I would have been so very impressed if Ginny had made a remark along those lines. As it stands, she dismissed his possession, his feeling that HE WAS the snake with a simple “you’ve never been possessed, then.” She did not even suggest that they talk to someone about that. She is a girl, a normal fourteen-year-old girl and she is utterly clueless about the seriousness of the situation Harry is in. Unless she grows up real fast, she will always be incompatible with Harry.
If I were inclined, I could write a perfectly defensible Ron/Hermione shipping essay. The ship is viable and there is ample evidence to support it should JKR write it in canon. I don’t ship R/Hr, however, because my belief is that she is better than that and has something much loftier to tell us about love in all stages of human development. I think that the Harry/Hermione clues are much more telling and weighty because they don’t subscribe to the superficiality of simplistic romance but speak more of the resilience and beauty and spirituality of that classic platonic love we were all talking about a couple of threads ago.
When did Hermione realise her feelings by Sirius83
Hermione is not aware of her crush until later in the book. Hermione is still attracted to Krum, but she is starting to feel something new for Harry. She does have some fun with the entire Cho ordeal, but something inside her is starting to hurt. I'll explain this later on. Incidentally, I throw out what I said before about Hermione needing to get Harry's crush out the way and so encouraging H/C during the first Hogsmeade visit. I've thought things over and this is my official stance I’m typing out here. You see, Hermione did start out just helping Harry, but inside her she's starting to feel something for Harry - but when she said "What about you and Cho?" while smiling, she doesn't know what it is yet. This is probably getting confusing, so read the following; it is a time line of sorts.
At the end of GOF, when Krum asked to speak to Hermione in private, I am convinced he confronted her about Harry. I do think she thought about it, and it has lingered in her mind, but she does not think there's anything. It probably does explain why she kissed him at the end, but I think it was more foreshadowing on JKR's part by emphasising "something she had never done before" rather than Hermione showing an open sign of liking Harry. In Hermione's mind though, she's just thinking he's a very close friend, of course I care about him a lot, there's nothing more there. Typical falling for the best friend syndrome.
As OOTP begins, she is really under the impression she has no feelings for Harry. She goes so far as to ask Harry with a smile about Cho, so far as to say that let Harry know that Cho couldn't take her eyes off him. However, she has subconsciously began liking Harry, subconsciously wanted to start spending more time alone with him - away from the trio, for starters.
Now, the kiss happens. Hermione is caught completely off guard. She needs to know what has happened, and fast. She can't explain why she feels this way, but she does. She assumes a businesslike tone, asks if Cho "cornered" him. She turns to a brisk tone; the flood of emotions Mad Eye Mike described is coming in. Although she has in the past helped Harry get to this point with Cho, when she realises he must have kissed her, she frowns. She doesn't know where all this is coming from, but she's still feeling it. When Harry answers yes, Ron becomes excited, Hermione's not, she shoots him a look of deep disgust - very unusual if she was encouraging Harry to get to this point, she should be happy for him too shouldn't she? Instead she is clearly upset by this and turns to her letter. Now, why is she burying herself in the letter? Is she wondering to herself what is going on? Why is she feeling this way?
Harry wonders if he's a bad kisser. Hermione answers, "Of course you're not" absently. Her mind is elsewhere - but is it really at the letter? She's scribbling, but is her mind really still there? I don't think so, she didn't even smile at Harry's good news, good news that she encouraged him in the past by letting him know Cho was watching him a lot. She's not really listening to the conversation either, she answers absently. Is she thinking "What if it were me instead of Cho?" She comes back to the conversation somewhat, explains about Cho, goes on her long-winded explanation. I have to wonder, is she feeling a lot of the same at that moment? Is she putting into words what she's been tumbling over in her head? Harry or Krum? Is it right to feel this way about Harry? And then, just as Cho could get kicked off Quidditch, she's headed up the D.A. and has had second thoughts about it; she could lose her badge and get kicked out of school for it. Ron says nobody could feel all that. This strikes her hard; she's feeling like that this very moment. She suddenly takes up a nasty tone with him and returns to her letter.
Now she looks up and asks if he was just nice to her. Thanks Mad Eye Mike for pointing this out! It sounds a lot like she is now trying to convince herself Harry was just trying to comfort Cho. This wasn't really a relationship between them starting. She then asks if Harry's going to see her again. When Harry doesn't answer properly, Hermione becomes impatient with him. When it comes to Harry, Hermione is usually very understanding, so what is this about? When she realises Harry is indeed planning to see her again, she becomes distant. Sounds an awful lot like she's been hit fairly hard. Ron asks what if Harry doesn't want to ask her. Hermione replies he's liked her for ages...in a vague voice. She's still distant. After this, all she does is answer Ron who she's writing the letter too - rather abruptly at that, and then we lapse into a 20-minute silence. At the end of this, she yawns, gives a quick "Well, 'night" and leaves. It sounds to me like her mind is in turmoil. I think at the end of this bit, she's aware she likes Harry, and she knows she can't do anything much about it.
Now we have the date. What happens when Cho meets Harry at the start of the new term? Doesn't Hermione say firmly that they'll be in the library, take hold of Ron and leave? Why firmly? One explanation is she wanted to let Ron know "We have to give him time alone" because Ron probably wouldn't get it. However, given the post-kiss scene, doesn't this explain more believably as she's upset about the whole thing? Now, you said it would be believable if Hermione was pleased things with Cho didn't work out. I'm going to show you something...
Hermione knew what Cho probably wanted. She more than likely had an idea Harry had a date on Valentines Day. In fact, given that Harry said "Cho might be expecting me to spend the whole day with her" I think he probably told Hermione about the date in advance. Now, I’m not saying Hermione sabotaged Harry's date! I honestly think it was just the best occasion for the meeting with Rita - although, given that Rita is an unregistered animagus, I think it would have been easy to have Rita fly into the school and have the meeting somewhere hidden at any time. Anyway, when Hermione got the letter confirming the meeting - she didn't just smile, she grinned broadly. While not intending to spoil Harry's date, I think she was also quite pleased that it was cut short.
After the date, I think she knew it failed. Harry turned up early for the meeting - and without Cho. She also seemed to observe Cho enter the hall without looking at Harry, and then sit with her back to him. Hermione then asks "brightly" how Harry's date went. Fishy isn't it? Again, I’m not saying Hermione tried to ruin the date, that’s not like her at all - but she sure seemed happy it didn't work out. Why did she sigh before saying he was a bit tactless? I believe she expected Harry to have realised Cho wasn't right for him. She took pity on him when she realises how Harry is feeling. However, after that initial sigh, she takes up a "maddeningly patient" air? Doesn’t sound very sympathetic anymore. After it's all said and done, she adds in the bit about how Harry should have said he finds her ugly. I think she feels inadequate for Harry, and that is why she said that.
I don't think I need to go much further than that - besides, this post has gotten long. Do you understand where I’m coming from now? So to recap, this is how Hermione felt during the Cho affair:
- Harry? More than a friend? Nah.
- Help with Cho
- Kiss happens. Shock. Her feelings come to light
- Didn't sabotage date - that's out of character - but pleased it didn't work out
My view is that Hermione has always liked Harry, but very much unknown to herself. He's a close friend, she doesn't realise it. In GOF it is possible Krum (and all those rumours about her and Harry) made her ask herself if she liked Harry, and she probably put it down to being friends. Note I am saying she DOES have the feelings, but she is not aware of it herself just yet. When she was partially aware of it, she put it down to friendship. When it did become glaringly obvious to her that she liked Harry, was when Harry and Cho kissed and she found herself rather displeased at the situation.
I am not saying Hermione only liked Harry in OOTP, I’m saying she became fully aware of them after the H/C kiss. I am also saying she may have looked at her feelings in GOF and put it down to friendship. I have not and will not say that Hermione has not liked Harry romantically during GOF. I believe she did and was not aware of it for a while then visited the concept and put it down to friendship - until the H/C kiss in OOTP.
The long road to the beginning by Lleyki
Okay a few threads ago; even before OOTP came out; Mad Eye Mike made a post referencing the movie The Usual Suspects. I don't know how many persons here have seen it but I'll refer to it again. At the start of the movie we are alluded to the person who is probably guilty. However we are then taken on a wild, crazy, two-hour ride; where all different scenarios are thrown at us; making everyone else seem guilty; all to lead us right back to where we started. Okay the point of my bringing this up.
What have many persons complained about the most when it comes to Harry and Hermione? Oh it's so cliché; hero gets the girl. How boring, how predictable, that's so obvious. However, judging by the number of things H/Hr shippers are called (few of my favourites being delusional, insane, illiterate, crazy, pathetic, etc.) on the MANY HP fan sites; I'd say this seems to be the least likely couple by many. However if one removes all the other books after SS/PS; the one that laid the foundation of the series; you'd see that Harry and Hermione were actually made very obvious; and that's my main point here. JK seems to be taking us on the wild crazy ride, throwing all the different scenarios in our faces; making so many other possibilities seem the most likely all the while to lead us right back to where we started. I'm sure many will deny it but no one can dispute the fact that there were WAY less R/Hr shippers pre-GOF. Why is that exactly if it's been obvious since Bk.1 as some now try to claim? Like I said; remove the other books and one sees that Harry and Hermione were very well established and most likely. However this is a series of twists and turns and I am sure JK was well aware of the many persons who would have this same thought "oh how clichéd; hero gets the girl." Thus; she flipped the script and made the hero getting the girl the least obvious one of all the scenarios.
Btw, in case one is wondering why I make this statement of SS/PS being very H/Hr if one looked at it without the knowledge of the other books; well here's why. Harry our tortured hero, who's been abused all his life, has no friends and no love. He comes into this world of magic where he finds a best friend and a girl who can't seem to stay out of his life; no matter how rude they are to her. Despite all his irritation with her, in the first signs of danger, he thinks of HER. Strange when one considers that she is NOT his friend and he really has NEVER said more than a few words to her. He along with his best friend saves her (after he jumps on the Troll for her, despite how dumb it was), and they all become friends. They instantly have this close friendship. JK then makes sure that this girl is the one who saves his life, she makes sure to detail HER reaction to his win explicitly and then to have HER be with him in the final moments of his big heroic showdown. Not only was she with him up till the end, the best friend had sacrificed himself for the two and before she leaves, they have the big "moment." She gets emotional, he has to convince her to leave him; I mean it terms of hero gets the girl it was a little clichéd, albeit beautifully written. PS/SS very much took on the look of hero, girl and hero's best friend; the sidekick. Again I say this is PS/SS on its own. However there were SIX more books to write and what fun would it be to simply have everything laid out so neatly and nicely? Of course you have to shake it up a bit. I mean what was it Shakespeare said; "the course of true love never did run smooth" and I mean this is a woman who loves Jane Austen; the queen of making true love a course of twists and turns.
So what is an author to do but to place a number of red herrings in the paths of her readers? Place different scenarios at them; throwing them way off the path that was established in the first place. First we have Ron and Hermione. Yes the bickering was present from the first book; however Ron really didn't like Hermione when he first met her, so the bickering was not just teasing and she pretty much felt the same. However for the next few books JK plays up on the bickering more; plus she makes Ron's reactions in defending Hermione very volatile. The classic bickering pair is taken to exaggerated heights. They argue over MANY things and they're always miffed at each other. Then we come to GOF where hormones and boy-girl themes are finally being dealt with. We again see the "we argue because we like each other so much and don't know what to do about it" possibility played to new and explosive heights. It seems every other moment Hermione and Ron are arguing about something or another. He makes the big realization that she is a girl after ignoring it for three years, he throws a BIG tantrum over her date, they have an explosive fight following the dance, he continues to show resentment towards her date, she "appears" to be bothered by his interest in a beautiful, blonde and by many accounts it seems that Ron and Hermione are certainly the obvious pairing. Harry and Hermione are completely thrown out the window and many claim there is NO passion, they are just friends. Whatever happens with them is purely platonic, unromantic and one of pure friendship. Fair enough.
Added to the mix is apparently H/G. Ahh the little sister scenario. The one of boy who sees girl but never REALLY sees her. We had the famous her chasing the train scene in the first book but we don't get to know her since she's not attending Hogwarts yet. In the next book we really actually get to meet her and the most interesting thing about her is that she apparently has a crush on Harry. Turns out there's more and in the end he ends up saving her life. Interactions between the two are next to null but every once in awhile she pops up; we're reminded she's still there and still likes Harry. However as is custom for this cliché the girl must get over her feelings for the boy to come to the realization that she is the perfect match for him. Sure enough in OOTP Ginny seemingly gets over Harry, she apparently has some great personality that we still mostly hear about. However the trap is set. She's liked him once before, he's always known it; now that she's no longer harbouring a silly school-girl crush, they'll see each other on a whole new level. Plus one adds the many supposed flattering descriptions many shippers of that couple have referred to and it seems to make sense. It's romantic; it's soft, seemingly something right out of a romance book. However it's a facade. All the so-called flattering descriptions and imagery and supposed foreshadowing is simply there to hide the fact that there is really nothing REAL or DEEP between the two. However for dramatic purposes it seems to work and that's just it. The R/Hr and H/G pairings take on their clichés to the tee. Ron and Hermione, being that they're supposed to be the "fiery" pair are loud. The situations around them are loud, in your face, ridiculously dramatic and exaggerated. H/G is quieter but it works for that cliché. It's supposed to be tender and soft. Thus the "flattering" descriptions of her and the little library scene thrown in to boot.
Harry and Hermione on the other hand do not fit into their tight little cliché. In many little ways they defy the entire hero gets the girl scenario. She is not the perfect, beautiful, girl in that cliché. He has saved her and played her hero but she's never been a weakling and in more ways than one she's returned the favour (by saving him) so they're even. They love each other and are comfortable with one another but not TOO much that they're like brother and sister. They get along great but do have the ability to annoy each other and are not above having some intense disagreements. The point is considering the extraordinary and dramatic situations these kids exist in; Harry and Hermione have a very REAL teen relationship. It isn't overly dramatic; it isn't plagued by petty jealousy and anger and dominated by forced romantic, dramatic imagery. Instead there's a bit of it all in the pair. We've had the romantic, dramatic imagery (Yule Ball) but it was controlled so as not to become too fairytale-like; there's been the anger, but only over important issues, we've seen the tense moments (the aftermath of the whole prefect scene). The key to this device of misleading is that there must be elements placed to not have the outcome seem false and a lie and the truth is that if H/Hr becomes the ending outcome; there were MANY instances throughout ALL the books that led to it. I have used MANY textual evidence showing that Hermione seems to have deeper feelings than friendship for Harry. As for Harry, a sudden realization of feelings for Hermione would not seem so implausible when you consider how much she's meant to him and how much she's represented in his life for all these years. For crying out loud the boy hears the girl's voice in his head; it's seemingly like she's become a part of him. The line of friendship love and romantic love is very thin for Harry and Hermione and if in the end they do end up together; we would have spent seven books of varying scenarios, contradictions, conflicting messages, all to lead us back to right where we started.
Harry the old soul by Nia
To say simply that Harry is ‘ordinary’ is to take a very superficial view of this young man which discounts both the extraordinary circumstances of his early life and the extraordinary circumstances of his day-to-day existence. Harry is, what I called him in one of my posts: an old soul.
This, BTW, is not presumption on my part, but came directly from JKR in an interview which can be found in its entirety HERE
As a teacher of 11 to 14 year olds, I have also observed children who are “old souls.” On the surface, they do all the things kids normally do, they have the same childlike anxieties, but there is an unnatural depth to them, they focus on things most children don’t think about. It could be because of the extraordinary circumstances they have to face at home or because of extraordinary experiences. I once had a wonderful student at a Detroit Middle School who would tell me every Monday about the weekend shootouts in his neighbourhood. On several occasions, he showed me the wounds where he’d been inadvertently struck by bullets. Do you think that child had better perceptions about life and death than I who lived at that time in an old, peaceful Detroit neighbourhood, in a cozy home with my parents? He most certainly did. In many ways he was older than me.
Here in the interview, which came out about the same time as GoF, I think you can see that JKR makes it plain that Harry and Ron are very, very different. Ron comes from a comfortable home and parents who love him. Harry’s circumstances have scarred him in more ways than one. Harry’s abuse has indeed had a definite effect on the way he views the world. It has made him withdrawn and prone to depression. His scar has marked him as different and it causes him to have to manage things none of his classmates even have to contemplate. During his very first year, he deals with nightmares related to the murder of his parents and the attempt on his life and is nearly murdered on two separate occasions. This affects him.
If you are unwilling to take JKR’s word for it from an interview, let’s then go to canon. In PS/SS, Ch. 16 Harry has just decided he will go after the stone himself. Ron calls him “mad” and Hermione is worried about his being expelled. His answer is not a normal kid’s answer. A normal kid would think of it as an adult problem and decide there was nothing else to be done but wait for the grown ups to sort it all out. Instead, Harry shouts,
“SO WHAT? Don’t you understand, if Snape gets hold of that Stone, Voldemort’s coming back! Haven’t you heard what it was like when he took over?...”
Harry is concerned about his new world, about the people in it, about Voldemort regaining power. He feels somehow compelled to try and personally stop Voldemort’s return to power, even if he dies in the attempt. This is very deep stuff for a child of eleven. He deals with even deeper issues, as he gets older. During subsequent years, he has to cope with being ostracized by everyone for being a parselmouth and the possible Heir of Slytherin, being the target of a supposed killer, compelled to learn magic far beyond seventh year level to prevent the oppression of the dementors, sees another student being murdered for no other reason than he was in the wrong place, forced to watch the rebirthing of the very psychopath who has wanted to murder him since he was a baby, forced into a deadly duel with said psychopath, watched his godfather die trying to save him and had his body taken over by the same psychopath. These things affect Harry. He is attempting to have a normal life, to act normal when his life is not. He endures these things on a daily basis. In one interview, JKR says he goes through hell every school year. (I didn’t reference this because it is quite, quite obvious) This is what has become ‘normal’ for Harry. From nearly every page of canon, you can see that he is constantly dealing with something or another totally outside the realm of normalcy, and all this without the comfort or counsel of parents.
Although, on one level I found his date with Cho amusing, on another, I found it poignant. Here is this boy with all these earth-shattering things tormenting him having to blunder his way through the quagmire of a first date on top of everything else. Being extraordinary obviously does not give you supernatural insight into how to act with girls.
I refer you to Dumbledore’s remarks in OotP, when he is reviewing Harry’s five years at Hogwarts: OotP, Ch 37, p. 839 (Am. Ed) “I have watched you struggling under more burdens than any student who has ever passed through this school…” A bit up the page he had remarked: “Young you might be, but you had proved you were exceptional.”
Hermione has good reason to assume she is right because she usually is. There is enough about Hermione’s background in JKR’s interview to give us a clearer picture of her too. There are numerous examples of both Harry and Hermione perceiving and processing things other people miss. Hermione is called by Lupin in PoA, (paraphrased) ‘the cleverest witch of your age I have ever met.’ Hermione is not only academically brilliant, she also has the equal ability to process, analyse and EFFECTIVELY APPLY her acquired knowledge while under duress. Ask any teacher. This is way, way beyond academically brilliant and there is NOT always one of these in every school. Add to this the aforementioned depth of perception and you have a singularly extraordinary individual.
As for S.P.E.W., being Black in America, gives you quite a few unique perspectives on issues of slavery and racism. I know racial history in Great Britain is very dissimilar (I once did a paper), but I think JKR is alluding to things she might have read or been told or even perceived on her own-she is quite extraordinary herself and I’m finding this whole S.P.E.W. thing very amusing. Hermione’s heart is in the right place, but her attitudes are so much like some of our dear liberal souls here, who have adopted the same kind of condescension when dealing with anyone not quite like them. Hermione can be excused, she is very young and on fire for a just cause she believes in. I applaud her convictions, if not her methods.
Taking action against social injustice is quite normal for bright youngsters. She knows something must be done, she simply does not know quite the proper way to go about it. It’s difficult and frustrating to try and figure things out if you’re not one of the ‘oppressed’ It is an understandable cluelessness. When they freed the slaves here, they didn’t do the thing properly either. We were given woollen hats too-all symbolic-- and we never did get our forty acres and mule. (American joke) IMO, Hermione’s misjudgements simply make her more human. I simply adore her!
Hermione is full of compassion that extends to Neville and Ginny and Eloise Midgen, and Hagrid and Buckbeak, and even a certain overly large ginger cat that no one else wanted. She believes strongly in her own convictions and feels deeply for the welfare of those who are weak and oppressed, and as Evaluna has said, would "willingly lay down her life" for her dear friend-compare that to the general self-cantered superficiality of the ‘normal’ girls, Parvati and Lavender. Hermione is quite, quite extraordinary.
Normalcy, for the sake of this discussion, has nothing whatsoever to do with purebloods, half bloods or mudbloods. Ron’s statement in CoS about nearly all wizards being half-blood is proof enough of that. (CoS, Ch. 7) No, I think you have completely misunderstood my stance. I refer you back to JKR’s interview. Ron is a normal boy without anything pressing on him. JKR calls him (at the time of GoF) a classic 14-year-old. He is not bothered by terrifying nightmares or a psychopath trying to murder him. He does not wake up at night with a headache that threatens to split his head open. He does not have to feel as if the survival of his world depends on him alone. He does not have to endure summers treated like something foul that just wandered into the house. He has two parents who love him and to whom he can go if things get too much for him. He has a comfortable home to return to during school breaks. He has a mother who makes him fudge and knits him sweaters, hugs him when he gets off the train for summer holidays and packs him sandwiches for the journey to school in the fall. And, were it not for his friendship with Harry, he would only have to concern himself with the normal teen problems.
Ron is a very loyal friend to Harry and is concerned for him when he is enduring all the experiences associated with being Harry Potter, but doesn’t always understand the deeper ramifications of the situations Harry is up against. You can't blame him. No one could who didn’t perceive things as deeply as Harry himself. Ron’s normalcy does NOT make him inferior in any way, just different from Harry and Hermione. You can go through the books and see how many times Harry and Hermione perceive something Ron totally misses. IMO, one of the reasons Ron is such a popular character in the fandom is that he is so much like all of us.
Harry was deprived of a knowledge of love. In one of Ebony’s wonderful stories she describes him as not being afforded even the "tiniest bit of leftover affection" (while at the Durseleys). He was a year old when his mother died and could not have remembered her unconditional love or comprehended its depth. (Canon supports this) When he is loved by Sirius, he is well-loved, but with conditions. Sirius sees James in Harry and part of him wants Harry to be James for him. As tragic as Sirius’ death was, I think it would have been more tragic if Sirius had made many more disappointed references to what James would or would not have done as a way of responding to Harry’s actions. I am glad we will never have to see Harry explode at Sirius, “I am NOT my father.”
Harry will never, ever, IMO, be able to truly access the full power of the love room until he sees and fully understands the power of love in his own life. He has no parents to model love for him or to even give him the experience of being loved completely. The Weasley’s, although great people, he has discovered in Out, are NOT as good as real parents. He has lost Sirius, what, then is left? He has great compassion, he loves his friends, but, for all this, he still doesn’t understand.
There is one type of love he does not know.
For all intents and purposes, Harry has had to be an adult while at Hogwarts. On several occasions during OotP, we have seen Harry walking past other students involved in normal pursuits while he is dealing with a life-or-death situation. He has no time or patience for sampling firewhiskey with Seamus or lolling about on the lawns or even working through the problems and insecurities of a normal teen-aged girl like Cho. His fumbling about for topics of discussion on their date is not only indicative of his charming cluelessness about girls, but also of where he is in relation to the ‘norm.’ What is it that he has no problems discussing? 1) Voldemort and what he and his minions might be up to and 2) How to thwart their evil plans. Those are not exactly topics for light date chatter.
Harry feels and is motivated from the depths of his soul. And, to get to Harry, a girl would have to be able to reach his soul, i.e., where he lives. That is much, much too deep for the normal teen girl.
So, how then will Harry find love with someone under fifty?
How then, indeed?
Clearly, a primary theme of this entire septology is the redemptive power of love. Harry, according to Dumbledore is full of the power that is stronger than death or the forces of nature. My original approach was a bit more esoteric than that awful league table of loves, but if you wish to discuss this in terms of the primary types of love mentioned before, why not? In many Christian marriage seminars here in the US, it is stressed that for a marriage to function and grow, the partners must apply all three types of love--that one is not more important than the others. Although I know we are not discussing marriage here, finding a soulmate employs the same principles. Harry has tremendous compassion and would risk his life to save someone he hardly knows. This is agape love-the most unselfish kind of love. But this is not enough to destroy Voldemort, apparently, as he is still very-much--alive. Harry has friends he loves and who love him in return, this is philia love. He has that and Voldy’s still kickin’. What then? There is only Eros left. Eros, of course, is romantic love. Combine all these three and IMO we will have Love complete. I think we could ascertain from James and Lily’s partnership against Voldy and James sacrificing his life for his wife and child and from Lily’s sacrifice for Harry that the two of them must have known all three types of love too.
There is only one problem for the septology, if Harry is to understand all these three types of love in one person, the only way will be if he enters a romantic relationship with a friend whom he loves unconditionally and who can unconditionally love him in return--love his soul. This type of soulmate love is not capricious, it takes time and patience and growing together. Now, how will he find all that in a teen-aged girl? Although this is not a shipping debate, I can only think of *coughhermionecough* (excuse me) one person in canon that could possibly fit the bill. This presupposes no league table hierarchy of love with romantic love at the top, but it will be what completes Harry and enables him to understand and access his most powerful weapon, And that, IMO, IS the entire ethos of this story.
Mirrored couples by Turambar
Some thoughts on Hermione/Krum and Harry/Cho.
The author writes a scenario where one person (Viktor) becomes jealous of another person (Harry) over another person (Hermione) in one book (GOF).
She then writes a scenario where one person (Cho) becomes jealous of another person (Hermione) over another person (Harry) in the next book (OOTP).
This raises the questions of why JKR chose to mirror the two sequences and why Ron does not figure in them.
These are structural devices to the basic plot: so why entangle Hermione so deeply in Harry's relationship with Cho over several scenes in two books. What exactly was the point of having Viktor declare to Hermione how much she meant to him, then showing her gushing over Harry and then showing Viktor glowering with suspicion and jealousy over Harry?
In GOF Krum becomes suspicious of Hermione's relationship with Harry because she talks about him a lot and off her own bat - she says at one point that Krum has not asked about Harry himself.
So why did JKR decide to a) raise the jealousy issue, b) make Harry compare himself to Krum, and c) why make Harry the subject of Krum's jealousy?
With Cho, she knows Harry is interested in her since he asked her to the Yule Ball in GOF and he asks her out in OOTP.
Cho has obviously seen that Harry, Ron and Hermione are friends, she knows they are in the same year, same house. She saw them together at the Quidditch World Cup, for instance. But she knows Harry asked herself to the ball and went with someone other than Hermione. Hermione went with Krum and was Krum's 'hostage' in the lake task.
So why if she knows Harry is interested in her, and knows that the trio are friends does she suddenly jump to conclusions about Harry and Hermione's relationship? Wouldn't the natural assumption be that Hermione, if she's interested in any of her friends, would be interested in Ron who doesn't have a girlfriend?
But Cho reacts in an irritated way to Hermione's suggestion that the DA members vote on a leader. As soon as Harry mentions Hermione's name on their date, Cho is sharply suspicious, insecure and tries, as Hermione says later, to probe Harry's feelings by trying to make him jealous.
The way Cho reacted so quickly suggests IMO that she had previously been wondering about Harry and Hermione's relationship.
But why does JKR create this scenario at all, why is it necessary? Why emphasise Cho's jealousy with the subsequent scene of her getting upset over her sneak jinx. Why add Cho to the list of people who are suspicious of the H/Hr relationship. And why keep Ron's involvement to the very one-sided role of suspicion and jealousy of Harry and Krum over Hermione? Viktor, Cho and Ron are all in the same position: outsiders looking in on the H/Hr relationship.
Viktor and Cho both get upset over communication: Viktor over Hermione babbling about Harry because it reveals her interest in him and Cho about the fact that Harry feels able to talk about something personal to Hermione but not to her.
In the HP series JKR is starting to a) mirror current (OOTP) events with previous events, b) recall previous events and c) use current events to throw light on previous scenes.
With a) and b) for instance, the fact that Hermione in OOTP is faced with thinking about disliking someone (Umbridge) so much she wants her dead, mirrors Harry's earlier situation with Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in POA.
In GOF Hermione teaches Harry the summoning spell and other useful spells for the first and third tasks. In OOTP the roles are reversed and Harry teaches Hermione. In the DA classes they practice, among other things, the stunning spell which comes in handy at the DOM.
Another obvious mirror is Sirius as a dog chasing the train compared to the famous train scene with Ginny in PS.
Harry also thinks about spells and their past connotations such as in the exam when he recalls the troll incident from PS.
On c) in GOF Harry compares himself to Viktor in the scene where Krum confronts him. Harry is "struck anew by how tall Krum was" and he "couldn't quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous international Quidditch player. It was as though the 18-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal - a real rival -". Krum praises Harry who grins "suddenly feeling much taller himself."
The influence of this scene comes through in OOTP.
For Harry: a) Right from the start a strong theme is Harry being more aware of his own power and what he is capable of; b) Hermione tells him that Viktor told her that Harry knew how to do things he didn't; and c) Krum's age and the fact that he's an international Quidditch player are the reasons he gives Ron for Hermione's interest in Viktor.
For Hermione: a) Just as Harry measured himself against Krum so Hermione in OOTP is forced because of Harry's interest in her to measure herself against Cho; b) Harry is forced by Cho to measure Cho against Hermione; and c) Hermione uses her letter writing to Krum in the post-kiss scene as a shield to prevent her feelings over the Cho kiss becoming too obvious and to keep Ron's interest in her at bay.
So JKR continues to weave in the parallels: Krum is the shadow Harry and Cho the measuring stick for Hermione in OOTP as they were in GOF, where scenes like the Lake task showed that Hermione was more important to Harry than Cho. These parallels tell the READER about Harry and Hermione's feelings, likes, dislikes, what they need, their relationship, even if the CHARACTER isn't aware of what they mean. For instance Harry finds having a common interest in Quidditch with Cho doesn't ultimately help him connect with her or make her suitable for him while Hermione and famous Quidditch player Krum manage to forge a friendship despite the fact that Hermione isn't that fussed about Quidditch (except when Harry is playing). As Sone has posted before, Hermione may be insecure about not being Harry's (Cho, sporty) type.
There's other scenes in OOTP that shed a bit of light on events in GOF between Krum, Hermione and Harry.
"Harry saw,with an ominous feeling,that her face was suddenly alight with the kind of fervour that SPEW usually inspired in her. "It's about preparing ourselves, like Harry said in Umbridge's first lesson, for what's waiting for us out there."
Harry gets the 'ominous' feeling because he associates the inspired passion she's feeling with SPEW, the first 'cause' to inspire her that he doesn't get excited by.
But she is talking about her vision of Harry teaching them and incorporates Harry's idea in Umbridge's class into her vision.
Then consider this: Hermione's reaction when sees the response to Harry's interview in the Quibbler (again her idea, involving Harry).
"Here's another one you've convinced," said Hermione excitedly."
Everytime Hermione caught sight of one of these signs, she beamed with pleasure.
"Then they spotted me, and obviously they know I know you, so they bombarded me with questions," Hermione told Harry, her eyes shining, "and Harry, I think they believe you, I really do, I think you've finally got them convinced!"
Remember, these were HER ideas. And both of these ideas made Harry happy. And Hermione got enjoyment out of making Harry happy.
This is exactly like the scene in GOF where Hermione meets Dobby, runs up six floors, grabs Harry and takes him to see the elf as excited as though she'd suddenly discovered that Santa is for real and all her Christmases had come at once.
These scenes give the reader some idea of how it must have felt for Viktor hearing Hermione talking about all the things Harry had done, looking at the "alight" face and the "shining" eyes. But unlike Harry, he knew what it meant.
Future pairings by Nia
Just as Harry and Hermione are not your typical hero and heroine, a relationship between them is not the logical easy-to-imagine one. The first two times I read GoF, I was certain that Ron and Hermione were the destined pairing. It just seemed so logical. All the overt signs seemed to point to Hermione’s suppressed and Ron’s not-so-suppressed feelings for each other. It was "obvious." Harry, on the other hand, although I adored him, was much, much too complicated. Well, several re-readings later, I’ve changed my mind. Hermione is complicated too. She doesn’t relate to the superficiality of Parvati and Lavender, nor to Fleur’s shallow packaging.
Hermione’s attraction to Harry (platonically speaking here) is not based on anything external because, quite frankly, there is not much external to look at. JKR goes to pains to try and give us a clear picture of Harry’s appearance-and Harry is NOT by any stretch of the imagination Dan Radcliffe. Hermione, who doesn’t see the importance of illusional packaging for herself is not turned off by the packaging of others, she ‘goes for the good stuff’ - those ephemeral things that present society seems to discount-character, integrity, courage, friendship… This is what makes her love Harry (as a friend) and I believe that this friendship has become so close that if and when they cross over into romantic love, it will be as natural as breathing.
The big problem for Hermione in loving such a boy is that the very things she admires about him are the very things that could get him killed. His insistence on telling the truth in Umbridge’s class-in spite of the horrifying detention assignments and the loss of his place on the Quidditch team, shows to what lengths he will go for the sake of his integrity. JKR makes it clear that his punishments and his humiliations by the Daily Prophet which turns him into a pariah in the wizarding world cause Hermione tremendous distress. Such an anti-hero in literature is generally not allowed a beloved. Generally speaking, these types of heroes become martyrs. The LOGICAL affiliation would be between Ron and Hermione-both his best friends, who are not the targets of Voldemort. Ron is a decent, loyal friend with a great deal of courage and incredible strategic skills, which he hides behind boyish foolishness. He is not subject to tormenting dreams, or dramatic mood swings or anything other than the normal distresses of a teen-aged boy. He very rarely acts the prat, and has a great sense of humor. All he needs is a little push to become a very admirable guy indeed. He is the logical choice. Why not him? Ron is not right for Hermione for the same reason Ginny is not right for Harry-both Harry and Hermione are too complicated to love anything less than a kindred spirit-one who sees the world as they each do and feels their convictions with the depth of passion they both do.
As Ron is a slowly evolving character, I don’t feel I’d be too upset if JKR gave him a few deeper convictions in the next two books, wrote him a backbone and allowed Hermione to see his inner strength and love him for it. I think it would be a tacky, amateurish way to resolve the romantic questions, but I am not JKR. As Flying Phoenix says, all Hermione has to do is open her eyes and there is the romance-no obstacles. Now, Ginny and Harry is another story.
There was a time (prior to OotP) that I believed, in the back of my mind, that Ginny might be Harry’s destined mate. In CoS, because Ginny felt it necessary to pour her heart into the diary, I thought maybe, in spite of Ron saying she “never shuts up normally,” she could be this introspective girl that had deep unspoken thoughts she could one day share with Harry. She and Harry would then have a commonality. We never saw her hanging out with anyone other than Hermione in PoA and GoF. Just before the Yule Ball, when she was quietly comforting Ron in the common room, I thought we would maybe see JKR show us a Ginny who, because she had been possessed by Voldemort, had been quietly observing things from the sidelines and had perspectives no other character had managed. I thought that JKR would have her acknowledge Harry’s extraordinary efforts on her behalf during her second year and that their common experience with Voldemort might serve to help her understand Harry were even Hermione couldn’t. I thought wrongly. Instead, in OotP we get this trivial “Super Ginny” who almost completely negates all of the previous character set up. My guess was that JKR wrote her this way to placate all the yapping head feminists who couldn’t see that Hermione was an incredibly strong female character. I was annoyed--especially by Ginny’s flippant remarks to Harry regarding the Chamber experience. Granted, Harry’s forgetting that she had been possessed somewhat trivialized the event, but at the same time, for the past four books, she has completely failed to acknowledge the efforts his extraordinary rescue entailed. I simply cannot see these two coming together, I don’t care if Harry finds her a brilliant, ‘blazing beauty’ in Book 6, the exposition simply would not work. JKR can write whatever she wants but the reason I love these books is that so many things ring true. A Harry/Ginny romance would seem phony and totally contrived and a cheap out for an otherwise gifted writer.
The best stories necessitate twists and turns, obstacles, catastrophes and near catastrophes, the unknown and the unexpected, but with enough hints and clues tossed out along the way so that all the events and nail-biting moments appear to flow into a believable confluence at the end. This holds true for romances as well as mystery-adventures and any other type of fiction. The Ron/Hermione relationship, as presented by the very intelligent AK and others IMO, seems the most logically simplistic and much too easy to be even mildly interesting.
Initial thoughts by Perdita
H/G:
1. My problem with this paring in the past was that we didn’t get any indication that there is any mutual attraction between them, and more importantly, there has not been any indication from Rowling that she wants to go that route. Do we see positive developments in these two respects in OOTP?
2. Ginny, as I had expected, did grow out of her crush on Harry by the end of GOF. She has matured. I really like how she is showing us who she really is.
3. Harry seems to be making observations about her and how she is much more enjoyable to have around, now that she’s not all starstruck when she is around him.
4. Note, however, that he still does not feel comfortable confiding in her, and that is quite natural because she is not his best friend.
5. Is this a build-up for H/G? I don’t think so. I think it sets up a premise for more of a possibility, but this is far from being suggestive of a ship.
R/L:
6. Suggestive Evidence: ch 10 Luna Lovegood – Luna laughs her head off over a joke that Ron made. It was a funny joke, but her behaviour seemed to me to be a bit…overwrought, as if she was trying to show him how much she is impressed by his humour.
7. At the end of the chapter in the carriage scene, Luna offers to help Ron carry Pigwidgeon. This is reminiscent of the scene from GOF when Pig helps Sirius deliver the message to Harry for them to meet him at Hogsmeade.
8. She’s the one who hums “Weasley Is Our King” after the game when Gryffindor won the house cup. She is proud of his accomplishments. This is similar to how Hermione is always displaying her pride and excitement when Harry accomplishes a commendable feat.
9. Obstacle – it seems like it is one-sided. Luna has a crush on Ron, but Ron is completely oblivious to it.
N/G:
10. Suggestive Evidence: ch 10 Luna Lovegood – Ginny and Neville have a very good rapport. They have been friends since GOF. In this ch., Ginny defends Neville, helping to stick up for him and encourage him at the same time because Neville displays a lack of self-esteem.
11. When the stinksap from the mimbulus mimbletonia was stinking up the compartment, it was very embarrassing for Neville. Ginny didn’t flinch and quickly “scourgified” the area. Again, she is helping Neville.
12. ch 32 Out of the Fire – Neville gets captured by the Inquisatorial Squad because he tried to rescue Ginny escape from Warrington.
13. GOF – Neville took Ginny to the Yule Ball. If he had not, she would not likely have not been able to attend. Even though he stepped on her toes all night long, she did not hold this against him. She is still his friend.
14. Patterns – they have a history of helping one another when they didn’t have to.
Pro-H/Hr Suggestive Evidence
None.
Hermione Loves Harry Evidence:
1. The Cho Project
15. Why does Hermione work so hard to get Harry and Cho together?
16. Possible reasons - One, to allow him to experience what it’s like to be with Cho, so that he can get over his crush. At one point, Hermione says that Harry has been crushing on Cho “for ages.” According to what has been presented to the reader, Hermione never made mention of knowing about the crush until GOF, when he asked Cho to the Yule Ball. Is this an indication that Hermione has been watching Harry closely to keep tabs on which girls he’s interested in? It’s possible.
17. Two, she wants to help Harry because he is her friend and she wants him to be happy. This is the obvious explanation if one simply reads what is portrayed on the surface of the story. If one looks deeper into Hermione’s behaviour when she trying to help Harry, one will see that she is not wholeheartedly pleased with Harry dating Cho.
2. Wanting to Spend Time With Harry
18. She wanted Harry to be chosen as a prefect so that they can spend more time together.
19. She wants Harry to make clothes for the house elves with her.
3. Values Harry’s Opinion of Her
20. Starting from GOF, we have seen how much Hermione values Harry’s opinion of her. An example is the period when Hagrid was taken of duty and Prof. Grubly-Plank had to fill in. Hermione made it known that she enjoyed GP’s lessons more than Hagrid’s, and Harry practically glared holes through her face.
21. In OOTP, we see the same thing happening with Hagrid/GP.
22. We saw it in the scene when Hermione tried to propose that Harry teach them DADA, and he yelled at her. She cowers from him after that.
23. Before the last battle, when Harry was convinced that Sirius was taken by Voldemort, Hermione had to pursuade him to proceed with caution and she tried several tactics to make him see her point of view.
4. Celebrates Harry’s Achievements With Fervor
24. In OOTP, we see Hermione jumping for joy when she saw Harry with the prefect selection letter. Her dramatic response was made an embarassment when she was told that Harry had not made it after all, but Ron had instead.
25. ch Beyond the Veil - in a moment of excitement to praise Harry for his cleverness at fighting off a death eater, she lets down her guard and gets hit by Dolohov’s hex/curse.
26. See the H/Hr File Version 2.0, and an essay by Turambar on how Hermione has a history of showing exceptional glee at the sight of Harry’s achievements.
5. Always Initiating Physical Contact with Harry in Dangerous Situations
- for the books 1-4, most H/Hr shippers at COS have said that in moments of excitement or danger, Hermione’s emotional stability depends on Harry. We see this in the way that she keeps making physical contact with him, grabbing his arm and such.
- Example 1: PS/SS-she hugged him before he stepped through the fire to face Quirrell/Voldemort. Anxious moment.
- Example 2: POS-she grabbed onto Harry tightly when they were flying on Buckbeak. Earlier, she also kept grabbing Harry’s arm as they were entering the Shrieking Shack. Dangerous moment.
- Example 3: GOF-on the way to see Dobby in the kitchens, Hermione kept grabbing Harry’s arm. Excited moment.
- R/Hr shippers have countered our evidence by pointing out that often times, Hermione grabs onto Harry because Ron is not present. As a result, Hermione’s actions don’t hold much significance in terms of showing which boy she fancies.
In OOTP, the examples of Ron being absent are:
- Visit to the Forbidden Forest and meeting Grawp for the first time.
- Helping Harry escape to the Forest with Umbridge threatening them.
The examples of Ron being present are:
- at the MOM, when they explore the Department of Mysteries in search of Sirius.
Pro-H/Hr Evidence: Bond is Strengthened
Ch. 23 Christmas on the Closed Ward
- At HQ, Harry is very depressed and he will not let anyone console him. However, when Hermione arrives, he has no hesitation with letting her in and letting her try to talk to him.
- PROBLEM: she had said that she was going to go skiing. When she turned up unexpectedly at HQ, it could be that he was just surprised to see her, and that's why he let her in so easily.
- SOLUTION: when Hermione stated that they should go back to his room to talk, he didn't refuse or hesitate. Rowling writes that he followed her back to his room. This is very submissive behaviour for someone who is supposed to feel resentful and rebellious.
Pro-H/Hr Evidence: Suggestive Examples
Ch. 26 Seen and Unforeseen
- Harry and Hermione are talking about Harry's date with Cho. Hermione tells him that he should have told her that he didn't want to spend time with Hermione, that she had forced him to promise to meet her, that he was annoyed with her setting up that meeting during his date with Cho, and that he should have told Cho that he thinks Hermione ugly. Of all these things, Harry chose to:
- Reply that he doesn't think Hermione is ugly.
- He replied in a bemused fashion, meaning he was confused as to why she would think that?
Pro-H/Hr Evidence: Intertextual Links
Ch. 18 Dumbledore's Army
- At Quidditch practice, it was raining and the team needed a way to stay dry so that they can see. The Imperius charm is mentioned again. It first appeared in POA. Being unable to see clearly is a recurring theme, and the problem with Harry’s eyesight is a recurring motif.
- PROBLEM: This time, there is less success with this charm.
- Is this an indication of doom for the H/Hr ship?
Ch 21 Eye of the Snake
- Harry dreams of meeting Cho in the D.A. room and she compares Harry to Cedric. In GOF, Krum suspected Harry of dating Hermione. Krum felt like he had to compete against Harry. Now, Harry feels like he has to compete against Cedric.
- In the dream, Cho turns into Hermione. As usual, she is telling him to do the right thing. This is one of the instances when Harry hears Hermione's voice telling him what he should do. In GOF, he also heard her voice in his head when he thought of his scar hurting, and she was telling him to go tell DD about it.
Ch. 30 Grawp
- The Forbidden Forest
- It has appeared in every odd-numbered book of the series. Every time, something significant happens.
- PS/SS Harry encountered Voldemort and they both got to meet Firenze and the other centaurs.
- POA they both hide in the forest with Buckbeak.
- OOTP they are brought to the forest by Hagrid to meet Grawp.
Ch. 31 OWLs
- Prep, he helps Hermione to study and she is being unbearably anxious. She even hit him on the face with a book, and he is annoyed, but tolerant all the same. Even indulgent.
- Charms Exam, wingardium leviosa (PS/SS)
Potions Exam, the Polyjuice Potion (COS)
- Astronomy Exam, ice, not mice.
History of Magic Exam, remembering Hermione's handwriting in her notes on the Formation of the International Confederation of Wizards
Arguments against Harry/Ginny by Hawk92
Now I’ve seen 2 possible H/G moments presented in this forum so far.
1) When Ginny is talking to Harry at the OotP headquarters at Christmas.
2) Ginny and Harry in the library.
Moment number 1 is easy enough to see on page 500-501
Harry started pacing up and down the room again, thinking. What they were all saying was not only comforting, it made sense..... Without really thinking he took a sandwich from the plate on the bed and crammed it hungrily in this mouth..........
I’m not the weapon after all,thought Harry. His heart swelled with happiness and relief,
*Emphasis JKR*
This moment is a group victory for Ron, Hermione, and Ginny. So it could go both H/Hr and H/G but if you give it to one you must give it to the other.
The 2nd moment is a lot more interesting to look at:
OotP Ch. Career Advice pg 654-656
Ginny had just came up to Harry in the library.
She hoisted a box wrapped in brown paper onto the table; it had clearly been unwrapped and carelessly rewrapped, and there was a scribbled note across it in red ink, reading INSPECTED AND PASSED BY THE HOGWARTS HIGH INQUISITOR.
“It’s Easter Eggs from Mum,” said Ginny. “There’s one for you....... There you go....”
She handed him a handsome chocolate egg decorated with small iced Snitches and, according to the packaging, containing a bag of Frizzing Whizbees. Harry looked at it for a moment, then to his horror, felt a hard lump rise in this throat.
“Are you okay, Harry?” asked Ginny quietly.
“Yeah, I’m fine,” said Harry gruffly. The lump in his throat was painful. He did not understand why an Easter egg should have made him feel like this.
“You seem really down lately,” Ginny persisted. “You know, I’m sure if you just talked to Cho.....”
“It’s not Cho I want to talk to,” said Harry brusquely.
“Who is it, then?” asked Ginny watching him closely.
“I.....”
He glanced around to make sure that nobody was listening; Madam Pince was several shelves away, stamping out a pile of books for a frantic-looking Hannah Abbott.
“I wish I could talk to Sirius,” he muttered. “But I know I can’t.”
Ginny continued to watch himself thoughtfully. More to give himself something to do than because he really wanted any, Harry unwrapped his Easter egg, broke off a large bit and put it into his mouth.
“Well,” said Ginny slowly, helping herself to a bit of egg too, “if you really wanted to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it.......”
“Come on,” said Harry dully. “With Umbridge policing the fires and reading all our mail?”
“The thing about growing up with Fred and George,” said Ginny thoughtfully, “is that you sort of start thinking anything’s possible if you’ve got enough nerve.”
Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate---- Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with dementors---- or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that he had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.......
Enter Madam Pince and they are chased out of the library...
Now I have a theory about this moment.
On initial examination there isn’t much to go on. But if we go past the obvious a couple of things jump out at us. But we have to look at a few other things first.
In Gof we are introduced to Veritaserum, a truth potion, and in OotP Ch Snapes Worst Memory pg 629- 632 Umbridge invites Harry into her office and offers him a drink. After she thinks that he has taken a drink she begins to question him about the whereabouts of Sirius Black. The logical conclusion is that Umbridge has the Veritserum and has attempted to use it on Harry. (In order to shorten this post somewhat I shall not type out this rather lengthy part of the book). This is later confirmed in OotP when Umbridge has captured Harry and the others and sends for Snape
OotP Ch 32 Out Of the Fire
“Ah, Professor Snape,” said Umbridge, smiling widely and standing up again. “Yes, I would like another bottle of Veritaserum, as quick as you can, please.”
“You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter,” he said, surveying her coolly through his greasy curtains of black hair. “Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient.”
Umbridge flushed
But later in OotP we are find out in Ch The Lost Prophecy pg 833 Dumbledore explains to Harry,
“It was he who gave Professor Umbridge fake Vertiaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell of Sirius’s whereabouts.....”
So far we have established that Umbridge had Vertiaserum and did try to use it on Harry. But that Snape has given her a fake potion. Now Snape would have had to give her a potion that could pass for Vertiaserum, in case Umbridge knew what it looked like, but would not have any visible effects to Umbridge when used. To not have a effect different to true Vertiaserum would rule out any sleeping potions, appearance altering potions, or poisons.
In OotP we are introduced to an interesting potion in Snape’s class, The Draught of Peace. A potion which according to Snape (Ch Professor Umbridge, page 232) “a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation.”
So by all of this we can establish that Umbridge has Vertiaserum and tries to use it on Harry, with unsuccessful results before Ginny meets up with Harry in the Library. That Snape has given her a false potion. And that Umbridge has used it all up.
Now to call your attention to a few things in this “moment”
Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate---- Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with dementors---- or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that he had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.......
Harry feels more hopeful after eating the chocolate. Why does JKR bring this to our attention?
She hoisted a box wrapped in brown paper onto the table; it had clearly been unwrapped and carelessly rewrapped, and there was a scribbled note across it in red ink, reading INSPECTED AND PASSED BY THE HOGWARTS HIGH INQUISITOR.
This box has been opened and inspected by Umbridge herself. Why does JKR mention this as well?
So here’s my theory on what could have happened,
1) Umbridge has and has tried to use Vertiaserum once already on Harry. This is established before the box of eggs arrives at Hogwarts. So when the box of eggs arrives, Umbridge having already suspected Harry of not drinking the tea, realizes that Harry will not trust something that comes from her. But Harry will trust something that comes from Mrs. Weasley.
2) Umbridge has used up all the fake Vertiaserum that Snape has given her. Where did the extra Vertiaserum go? Into the Easter eggs. Umbridge can have Harry tailed and when he eats his egg come upon him suddenly and start asking questions about Sirius’s location. This would explain where the extra fake Vertiaserum went to.
3) Snape gave Umbridge a fake potion. Now he would have had to use one that wouldn’t produce any visual changes or Umbridge would have known it was a fake. So we can rule out potions that would create any visual form of change. We can also rule out sleeping potions because Umbridge would be suspicious if the person that she was interrogating suddenly fell asleep. And we can rule out poisons because if the person dropped dead then Umbridge would once again be suspicious (not that Snape probably wouldn’t poison Harry but he’d have to answer to Dumbledore and he wouldn’t be sure who else Umbridge might use it on). Now a potion that calms anxiety and soothes agitation would be perfect. The student being questioned would not be flustered into giving any thing away and Umbridge would not know the difference.
So to sum up my Theory,
Umbridge has the Draught of Peace (fake Vertiaserum) and the box of eggs. Not being sure which one is Harry’s she puts the potion into all the eggs (this explains what happened to all the potion). Harry eats the egg and fells better. Umbridge’s plan suffers a setback because Ginny gives Harry his egg in the library and Harry and Ginny are chased out by Madam Pince. So Umbridge is unable to question Harry at that point and has lost her chance at this plan.
So are we sure that Ginny really makes Harry feel better?
Harry's feelings by Flying Phoenix
Miss Perfect or why Harry isn’t suddenly that much interest in Cho?
My point is to show that in OotP are indeed hints which suggest that Harry is falling for Hermione, badly falling if not worst.
Well, where do is start I suppose its really starts in the background in GoF but in OotP is it in the UK edition at page 602 but I come later to that back.
First I need you remind what kind of relationship which ends in true love we had or had an idea how JKR do work with it. Its Lily and James. This was born from dislike by Lily and fancy by James in there fifth year. Problem for my case is that we don’t have any couples like that in Harry’s year. Hermione doesn’t dislike Ron or Harry, Harry or Ron doesn’t dislike Hermione. They aren’t arrogant and not big headed. Only Malfoy is like that.
See our problem is complicate much more complicate as by L/J. By Hermione and Harry starts as friendship and not dislike. How I said already is it that they do love each other already in a friendship level. So there won’t be a point by a crush where you see some one and falls for them. Here is it like a building up. There isn’t really a change in this friendship nothing what would make them suspicious first. It’s normal to think on the friend or to like each other so they won’t recognise that they already beyond the line in some parts. At first not, still its suddenly starts to hit them that they far to close to each other.
That’s difficult to write but JKR seems to do that very well because you can see on two pages where Harry lose his interest at Cho first as she blame Hermione than at the final of the Quidditch Harry don’t feel not the same for her anymore his crush is dieing down. Exactly at that page Harry and Hermione got their first Forrest adventure in this book.
Now lets look at Cho. She is really a poor girl because she had so much to suffer her first real boyfriend is dead. She isn’t sure if she can like Harry like that but she want it and try it. But there are problems and that is at first Harry and as second Hermione. Harry isn’t exactly that deeply crushed for that girl as in GoF its quite different because in the meantime did things happen which may change his feelings and that’s somehow Hermione.
In GoF she showed strength in her loyality and solidarity which had impress Harry no doubt. He wasn’t that much for her in PoA as she was it in GoF for him. She took that people blamed her and said she is a scarlet woman she still stood by his side never blamed him for that. At the first sight its what we expect from friends but still is that beyond friendship abilities. She showed Harry a part of her character which is probably the highest problem for Cho.
Every girl what Harry will fall for have to stand a comparing to Hermione and her strength she showed in GoF. That’s something what is a problem for Cho because she can’t stand under this comparing. Hermione has deep caring, loyality and solidarity abilities which are very hard to compare with. That’s the issues for Cho she simple hasn’t this. I don’t say she don’t care or isn’t loyal. What I say is that she isn’t that much behind Harry like Hermione.
Even it wasn’t for Cedric it wouldn’t work between Harry and Cho simply because of Hermione. It’s what Harry thinks about her if you like his respect and his proudness about her smartness. Around Harry’s feelings already a wall which not even himself get directly through but his action and behaviour show that since GoF Harry and Hermione starts to cross the line. Not obviously but still they cross the line.
I don’t know if it was really already in GoF but I could swear that I read something the line that Harry’s mind speaks in a familiar voice. It wasn’t written Hermione’s because he didn’t know it there. My basis to believe that Harry starts to fall for Hermione in GoF in the background is the Yule Ball and the lake scene. I did already show what my thoughts are about that so I won’t write it now.
Though the obvious and the strongest signs are at page 602 in OotP UK.
|He also suspected that part of his mind-the part that often spoke often in Hermione’s voice-now felt guilty on the |
|occasions it strayed down the corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the |
|journeys end |
First Hermione was obviously successfully with her nagging because that’s the very first time that Harry stop this dream by himself and he don’t dream again till Voldi sent this little dream about Sirius. We see which power Hermione has about Harry. Not Dumbledore and Not Sirius brought him to that. It was Hermione who make Harry felt guilty. I could interpret this quote in a different way. This waking up is even to referring to Cho because one page later Harry doesn’t feel like before for Cho and I could interpret it as a waking up to his own strange feelings for Hermione.
Its fact that if Harry fights with Hermione and even he is angry with her he still see that she mean it well or that she is on his side. Something what is amazing. If you are angry you don’t admit that in your mind. Harry can’t lie to her not I see in her eyes and tell her some lies. He doesn’t can’t tell her the true witch might hurt her in her pride or in her believing in Harry.
He wants stay as smart and somehow powerful in her sight and not weak. That’s behaviour which is beyond friendship. He needs her advice; need to know she is with him. He never said a bad word that she was quiet often on the edge of tears in OotP. But it did annoying him by Cho. In OotP he don’t say it that loud like in GoF that Hermione isn’t that what Cho says to him. He never answered Hermione’s question if he fancied Cho since 3rd year. He avoids an answer. Through the OWLs he thinks quiet often at Hermione that’s after page 602 so is the two adventures into the forest where we see that Harry has a Hermione-rescue-thing. He seized, grapped, pulled her aside or back on her feets.
Cho looked perfect for Harry but she wasn’t because she couldn’t stand a comparing to Hermione. So she wasn’t perfect.
A little quote I wanna add. It’s a nice one:
|said Hermione, allowing her teacup to jog around in neat little circles around Harry’s |
If he catches the snitch he want be happy. Just a thought.
Signs of Harry's interest by Perdita
There are many indications in OOTP that suggests the notion that Harry does like Hermione more than a friend. The problem is that he is not aware of what he is feeling and what it means. He does not understand why he behaves a certain way with her, or what to do about it. Harry simply ignores these questions. Harry’s strange behaviour is shown to the reader, but it’s not explained because he does not understand his own feelings and behaviour. All we can do is look at what is written in a scene, and look for patterns that resurface throughout the rest of the text. Here are a few suggestive examples that shows Harry having feelings for Hermione, but on a subconscious level. One of the ways of knowing that A likes B is when B’s favourable opinion of A is held as an important aspect of their relationship.
Harry Values Hermione’s Opinion of Him
OOTP, Ch. 9 The Woes of Mrs Weasley
He (Ron) dashed from the room, leaving Harry and Hermione alone.
For some reason, Harry found he did not want to look at Hermione. He turned to his bed, picked up the pile of clean robes Mrs. Weasley had laid on it and crossed the room to his trunk.
‘Harry?’ said Hermione tentatively.
‘Well done, Hermione,’ said Harry, so heartily it did not sound like his voice at all, and, still not looking at her, ‘brilliant. Prefect. Great.’
Obviously, Harry feels ashamed for not having been made a prefect. After Hermione’s display of joy and pride at the thought of him having made prefect, and then to find out that it was not so, why did it make Harry feel so bad? Why did he find it hard to look at her, if he didn’t feel as if he let her down for some reason?
Note that Rowling says that Harry did not know the reason why.
One example is not very strong, so here is an instance of Harry contemplating the thought of trying to hide a failure from Hermione’s knowledge.
-, Ch. 15 Hogwarts High Inquisitor
The trio has just had their Potions essays returned to them. Harry did poorly and is not feeling very happy. They meet up with the Twins. The Twins explain to the Trio how OWLs are graded, with T(roll) being the lowest grade.
he (Harry) was not sure whether or not George was joking (about “Troll”). He imagined trying to conceal from Hermione that he had received ‘T’s in all his OWLs and immediately resolved to work harder from now on.
Is Rowling using Harry’s behaviour in this scene to show a transition from the earlier scene at HQ? There, Harry found out that he had failed to make the prefectship, and he was very ashamed of himself and could not bring himself to look at Hermione. Now, after a setback in Potions, he is worried about repeated failure in his OWLs, and AGAIN, it is Hermione whom he thinks about and her response that worries about. Thinking about her actually motivates him to do better.
In the next passage, we see Harry go through an exam where he makes a mistake, and is afraid to let Hermione know about it afterwards.
-, Ch. 31 OWLS
He was glad Hermione had not been in the Hall at the time and neglected to mention it to her afterwards. He could tell Ron, though; Ron had caused a dinner plate to mutate .
Why is Harry so worried about Hermione knowing of his mistake? Haven’t they been going to school for so many years? Haven’t they already grown accustomed to Hermione being more successful, while Harry and Ron are less successful? Why, at this point in their friendship does Harry feel worried of what Hermione thinks of his magical ability? Does she not know that he is one of the most talented wizards to ever live? Why is he afraid to disappoint her?
Harry values Hermione’s opinion of him, and in these three examples, Rowling shows how Harry’s consciousness progresses from one event to another. He wants her to be proud of him, and he’ll try to hide his failures from her. When he has failed at achieving a task, he feels ashamed, unable to face her. Why does he not feel this way towards Ron? Hermione and Harry are very good friends. He shouldn’t have to feel this type of pressure of having to do well so as not to disappoint. If they were acquaintances, then it would make sense to say that that distance makes Harry feel uncomfortable showing a weakness to people he doesn’t trust. But, Hermione is not merely an acquaintance. If it is not because he feels distance between them, then it must mean that he feels a bond or an attachment that is beyond merely platonic friendship.
*****
Special thanks to 00Hawk, Mad Eye Mike, Turambar, Lleyki and Sirius83
Harry Does Uncharacteristic Things to Please Hermione: Part One
Now, we have gone through several rounds of stating how good a friend Hermione has been to Harry. In some cases, she's a bit too devoted to him, to the point where she puts her own life at risk for him when she really doesn’t need to. She does things for him that she has never done for anyone else. But the point of this essay is not to discuss what Hermione has done for Harry. Instead, I want to discuss what Harry has done for Hermione in OOTP.
Keep in mind that throughout the book, it is Hermione who keeps challenging him; it is she who has to take the full brunt of his explosive temper when others choose to remain silent. Harry has treated Hermione pretty badly during their arguments. The rest of the time, when they are not arguing over Voldemort, Harry and Hermione share some amusing moments with one another. In these instances, Rowling shows us how much Harry is willing to do uncharacteristic things to please Hermione. Because this essay is so long, I will post it in two instalments.
OOTP, Ch. 23 Christmas on the Closed Ward
1. here was a ready-made excuse not to talk to any of the others, which was precisely what he wanted, so when she (Mrs. Weasley) opened the front door he hurried straight past the troll-leg umbrella stand, up the stairs and into his and Ron's bedroom.
Here, he began to pace up and down, past the two beds and Phineas Nigellus's empty picture frame, his brain teeming and seething with question and ever more dreadful ideas.
And later:
2. (Ron came and went) He supposed none of them would want him there anymore, now that they knew what was inside him.
He would not go down to dinner; he would not inflict his company on them. He turned over on to his other side and, after a while dropped back off to sleep.
And later still:
3. he was sitting alone, watching the sky growing whiter outside the windows, threatening snow, all the time feeling a savage pleasure that he was giving the other the opportunity to keep talking about him, as they were bound to be doing. When he heard Mrs. Weasley calling his name softly up the stairs around lunchtime, he retreated further upstairs and ignored her.
Around six o'clock in the evening the doorbell rang and Mrs. Black started screaming again. Assuming that Mundungus or some other Order member had come to call, Harry merely settled himself more comfortably against the wall of Buckbeak's room where he was hiding, trying to ignore how hungry he felt as he fed dead rats to the Hippogriff. It came as a slight shock when someone hammered on the door a few minutes later. (enters Hermione)
We have already discussed this scene by looking at Hermione’s behaviour and the effect she has on Harry. Now, I want to draw your attention to Harry, and how he felt prior to Hermione’s arrival. To show how resentful Harry felt, and to show how isolated Harry wanted to make himself, JKR described how Harry ignored two of the most important people in his life: his brother and his mother, Ron and Mrs. Weasley. On those occasions, Harry was aware of his own choices to refuse sharing his company with Ron and his family; as well as ignoring Mrs. Weasley.
Harry is resentful, but he is not so resentful that he becomes completely absorbed in it, and to the point where he does not know what he's doing. Harry is still very much aware. Then enters Hermione, and we know the rest. She tells him to come down to his and Ron's bedroom, and Harry followed her back to the second floor. That word followed emphasizes Harry’s change in mentality from being one who is defiant to become one who is submissive. Why did he leave his wallowing state? Because Hermione asked him to.
When a person is in love, they do things that they normally would not do; just to please the person they love. Sometimes they do it knowingly, and other times, pleasing the one they love is so natural a disposition that they don't even realize how shocking the change is. Harry is of this latter type, who willingly changes his attitude for Hermione, not even realizing how meaningful his actions are. This goes to reinforce the notion that he has fallen in love with Hermione, but has not realized it yet.
OOTP, ch 31 OWLs
1. Their first examination, Theory of Charms, was scheduled for Monday morning. Harry agreed to test Hermione after lunch on Sunday, but regretted it almost at once; she was very agitated and kept snatching the book back from him to check that she had got the answer completely right, finally hitting him hard on the nose with the sharp edge of Achievements in Charming.
"Why don't you do it yourself?" he said firmly, handing the book back to her, his eyes watering.
Meanwhile, Ron was reading two years worth of Charms notes .
To note:
27. Indulgence during exam prep, Harry helps Hermione to study and she is being unbearably anxious. He is annoyed, but all the same, he is still tolerant, even indulgent. That is, until she hits him on the face with a book, and his eyes water.
28. ^ Is uncharacteristic of Harry because we all know that throughout OOTP, Harry has been very temperamental and sometimes scathingly rude to Hermione and Ron. Here, he is willing to sit through studying with Hermione, in spite of her temper. What Rowling shows us is a give-and-take relationship between them. In spite of each other’s flaring tempers, they still stick it out to get the job done.
Doing something that is contrary to one normal disposition to make another person happy is one of the signs of being in love. Harry has done this twice in OOTP, once at Christmas at Grimmauld Place, and the second time was during the OWL exam preparations. Twice, Harry willingly indulges Hermione and the motivation is solely to make her happy.
13. Possible pairings by Lleyki
Why do some persons act like some pairings are so impossible? If I realized anything from OOTP is that JK loves to play with her readers and spin them in circles. I said in my last post that after reading OOTP I was more than certain JK was being honest about reading forums. Let me expound on that point.
Persons said on forums that they knew for a fact Harry found Hermione ugly. Well out of the blue, JK puts a left field statement in the book where Harry says in no uncertain terms that he does not find Hermione ugly. Many persons argued that Harry had to end up with someone we'd already met because there was NO way JK could convincingly bring in a new character and get us to like her. Well enter Luna Lovegood and I have to say I was one who didn't think it was possible; but I LOVE this girl. Persons complained about Harry getting everything; well Ron certainly had his glory in this book (although in that instance I think she over-compensated and made a little too many contrived situations with Ron, but that's another issue.) My point for all this is we should never underestimate JK and say this or that pairing is absolutely and completely not possible. Why is Harry and Hermione so impossible? Is it because Ron and Hermione is so obvious? Well when did they become so obvious? Was it when Ron started liking Hermione? So I guess that must be why Harry and Ginny was obvious; because she liked him? Why is Harry and Hermione such an impossibility and awful pairing yet Harry and Ginny fit perfectly? Is it because Ginny is now a Quidditch player and apparently a fitting Seeker? Well that didn't help his relationship with Cho so why should that matter?
Let me take a look at Harry and Ginny for a minute. Why did so many persons love this pair? I mean many persons hated it, couldn't see it, namely because the two had almost ZERO interaction. H/G shippers however clung to the pairing, caught up in the full fairy-tale feel of it. They fell in love with that little girl chasing a train, half-crying and half-laughing while Harry watched until she disappeared. They clung to their beliefs of imagery and the uses of the so-called flattering descriptions of her used by Harry. Her crush on him was adorable as far as many were concerned and it was simply a matter of time before she'd blossom into the girl he'd see was right for him. Introduce OOTP and many H/G shippers are celebrating and ready to call victory. Ginny has apparently developed into a girl who was a closet, great Quidditch player, she's not sitting in her dorm alone, dating around, she's seemingly confident and able to stand up to Harry. Great she's blossomed into the girl they always knew she would and come BK.6, after all that time spent playing Quidditch together they'll DEFINITELY fall in love by the end.
I was not being the slightest bit sarcastic in any of this. This is the impression I have gotten by many H/G shippers and far is it for me to say that they are wrong. You believe and love what you want to love. However I can read the Harry and Ginny arguments and see certain things. For example; consider the train scene with Ginny and move ahead to OOTP when Harry is watching Sirius from the train. The two scenes almost eerily resemble each other; meaning who is to say Ginny might not still die? Pre OOTP, all alot of H/G shippers had for the pair was the flattering descriptions used to describe Ginny and how based on the descriptions of Hermione there was no question Harry found her ugly. Well JK made sure we knew that absolutely was not true so that throws out that argument. Plus she adds that statement in the book following Harry's very glowing description of Hermione in GOF. We move to OOTP where Ginny now has personality and is comfortable around Harry. However what about Harry? He seemed less than interested in the fact that she was "over" him except to figure out that that's why she was talking now. He isn't the slightest bit interested, bothered by her different boyfriends. How is that different to him not being jealous by Krum? He and Ginny had moments when they talked but how is that different from him and Hermione and quite honestly he still isn't a tenth as close to Ginny as he is with Hermione.
H/G shippers always referred to Harry's feeling of immense relief or was it "sweeping relief" when DD saved him from having to say Ginny was the one who opened the Chamber and of course his relief in finding her alive. However how is that different to his reaction to Hermione's getting injured in OOTP? Harry was so scared of Hermione being dead he could barely concentrate on fighting the DE and when Neville says she's fine; the boy is literally lightheaded with relief. If MANY persons here can attribute that to pure friendship what makes Harry's reaction to Ginny in the Chamber anything but worry over his best friend's sister? If all these things shared by Harry and Hermione is nothing but platonic friendship what makes anything developed between Harry and Ginny in OOTP anything but that? I mean what did they really have besides that one moment in the library? What makes that anymore romantic than say Hermione and Harry's moments? Nothing really, except that H/G shippers believe in it. They read Harry and Ginny and they like what it represents. It makes them smile; it gives them a warm feeling. It is something that makes sense to them. Even before OOTP when many persons said these people were all crazy cause Harry and Ginny barely said two words to each other; they believed in it. Btw, I'm talking real H/G shippers here not those who put them together simply because it is convenient for R/Hr. Therefore what, what makes H/Hr shippers so deluded or the pairing such an impossibility when there has been MANY moments between the two over ALL the five books rather than one book where one character suddenly had some development? Why? Why can't H/Hr shippers simply be allowed to believe that two characters who have meant so much to each other for so long; should be together? Again we go back to the question of is it because Ron likes Hermione? Sure many persons will deny it but I guess if you want to deny things on a forum that's fine, but you really shouldn't lie to yourself.
Okay this wasn't to bash any ship but to make a point that I made at the beginning. Nothing is concrete here, simply because JK hasn't told anyone here personally what she'll do. If R/Hr shippers want to rejoice about Hermione giving Ron a kiss on the cheek, then allow H/Hr shippers the right to rejoice in that she kissed Harry first or to rejoice in the Prefect scene where I'm sorry; there was no mistake of who Hermione wanted to the prefect. If H/G shippers want to celebrate and squeal over Harry and Ginny's library scene then allow H/Hr shippers the right to squeal over Hermione's excitement of seeing Harry for the first time, so much so that she was breathless or the fact that she was able to get him out of his room when no one else could. See the problem with many ships here is that Harry has only showed romantic interest in Cho and of course Jk did this deliberately. That should have been the major clue that this relationship wouldn't last. JK is not stupid; she knows she can't let Harry have feelings for either Ginny or Hermione too soon in the books because that would be like giving away a big part of the story. So in conclusion can we save the pigs flying comments in relation to Harry and Hermione being impossible? Incidentally I would like to remind persons of JK's interview with some British guy recently where she even played coy about the possibility of Draco and Hermione. Now if this ship is not thrown out, the possibility of Harry and Hermione really shouldn't be.
14. Respect and love by Evaluna
Hermione and Ron bicker and often appear only to tolerate each other. Harry and Hermione seem to touch deep chords in each other, and Hermione in particular seems truly upset [tears up] when Harry's emotional well-being seems threatened, such as when he is upset or angry. I think HayCheng and FP have touched on this issue many times and have spoken well. The idea of a love relationship built on a lack of solid mutual respect or even just plain disrespect [and which at least previously also included constant low-level verbal hostilities] is anathema to me. I think this lack of mutual respect, even if somewhat improved over past history, is a poor example for any love relationship, and I think Harry agrees:
I think we begin to get our first inkling as to Harry's thoughts on relationships when he considers his mother's attitude toward his father, though he felt his father deserved it.
Note: this is NOT to compare the two generations because they are NOT at all the same, but rather to expound on Harry’s POV in this matter regarding what makes good and bad relationships. Harry recalls that Lily told James she despised him and that his behaviour was contemptible, and Harry felt that his mother showed compassion and right behaviour, and that she was in the right to stand up to a bully. He wonders how his parents ever got together, because at this point Harry has such different opinions on their respective characters.
From this we see that compassion and decency, reflected in his mother's values and in her actions, are what Harry finds positive in their relationship. At this point Harry is not sure what positive traits his father brought to the relationship, and what his mother could have seen [or respected] in James. Note: and this is interesting, Harry later even mentally wonders if James forced her into a relationship [this is a subconscious suggestion of violence or threat, which Harry clearly finds abhorrent]. However even here at the very least his parents interaction did not consist of pointless bickering: there was a serious topic raised by Lily, and her condemnation of James was justified. Either way it's only a partial improvement over Hermione and Ron’s visible disregard for each other's feelings on a regular basis that is, it occurs throughout the book in look, tone, and speech--
[in OotP, while verbal hostilities may have notched down, Ron is frequently enough rude either directly to Hermione or in her presence, both of which she dislikes, and Hermione is largely apathetic toward Ron when not criticizing him]
-- and in Harry’s mind still in no way the basis of a good or caring love relationship, at which point he seeks out Sirius in hopes of reconciling his perception of his parents foundation for their relationship against what he himself feels to be important in a relationship, which conflicts [based on the info at hand] with what he himself saw.
Note further that I am NOT making ANY kind of direct parallel but only discussing Harry’s POV on relationships. To wit, let me demonstrate further the lack of parallel between James and Ron regarding relationships: Although Harry doesn’t feel very good about his parents relationship at this point, nonetheless we could see that James was still very considerate toward Lily. Why? Because James liked her, even though she didn’t think much of him. Either Ron is a LOT more ego-centred and immature even than James was at 15 in Harry’s mind [given James behaviour, is this really likely? And Ron is not as cruel], or more likely, Ron’s feelings for Hermione are not as deep as James feelings for Lily at all but rather are superficial and evoke only sporadic, unjustified feelings of jealousy which are not enough to overcome their rather large differences in character, temperament, interests, and background. Remember James obviously made huge changes in basic character to win Lily's love, almost a superhuman effort, based on his own feelings. Of course, as I've said before, it's not to say Ron won't row over Hermione regardless of whether his feelings eventually prove anywhere near as deep as Harry’s, simply because Ron’s knee-jerk pride has consistently been a weakness.
No sign of Ron doing this [and only very small signs of any maturity period in OotP] & thus the whole crush thing, whilst true for Ron at the moment, is well overplayed IMO. Thus far there is not enough common ground in their personalities to really ever get along well. Remember James and Lily weren't even friends and thus the expectation of courtesy toward one another should be even higher for Hermione and Ron as existing friends. I think the whole UST argument for rudeness equating secretly to lust or even love is very lowbrow and I don’t think that’s JKR at all. I think picking on the girl or boy you like goes out in primary school, and even if Ron is a bit immature even he’s not that far gone. He’s a nice enough bloke, but he’s just not the one for Hermione -- evidenced by her overall lack of response to Ron in any way beyond friendship-- particularly in OotP, and not a particularly deep friendship at that, especially vis-à-vis Harry and Hermione’s relationship.
This reinforces the argument some have put forth that Hermione and Ron have a much smaller overlapping pool of respect for one another as individuals than they each do for Harry, and that he is for each the main friend. Hr and R do each respect some things about the other, but not enough to tip the balance in their overall views of and corresponding behaviour toward one another. This is especially obvious regarding Hermione, as she spends a majority of her spare non-study time with Harry in OotP. And even if Hermione were suddenly to fall for Ron, for which I absolutely see no evidence, IMO a love relationship without respect is doomed to failure, as the other stuff will get you only so far. Without a substantial overhaul of both characters [and who wants that?], I don’t see how JKR can make this credible. I still see it as one-sided R--.>Hr, as so many of the crushes in this series have been, and I think even for Ron this must somehow pass if he is to ever find someone whom he can mutually respect and thus truly love
Per above, I think it’s clear at this point in OotP that Harry has certain expectations about what constitutes a good and caring love relationship between 2 persons, and thus is struggling to see how his parents could possibly rank satisfactorily against his own standards, based on the info at hand.
Now...
Based on my analysis, prior post, Harry clearly expects a good and caring love relationship to contain:
-- similarity of certain key positive character traits such as compassion and decency
[ALL: please add to this list as needed],
-- along with corresponding humanitarian values, behaviour, and the courage of one convictions,
both toward the loved one and on behalf of others
-- underscored by a deep love, caring, and mutual respect for one another.
Harry himself has had very little in the way of parental role models upon which to base his beliefs in this matter. Harry also has had very little love in his life, particularly prior to Sirius, who himself was always kept from Harry’s side due to circumstance hence
Love =
[whether parental, familial, or romantic (I guess this one should be
reclassed as a combo of eros + storge for another as a foundation for
'agape' toward persons in general, as those same Greek philosophers
and religious scholars have put forth through the ages, with nods to
BabyMars love detail]
= Harry’s deepest desire. And I've just said how love at a personal
level is a foundation for love at a general level, which we've been
given hints will be key to Harry overcoming Voldy.
So, Re: Love and Relationships from Harry's POV...
Upon what is Harry basing his mental expectations or definition of what he feels constitutes a good and caring love relationship?
IMO [theory follows], Harry’s expectations have already been shaped by his only longstanding deep relationship with someone of the opposite sex and moreover his deepest longstanding relationship with any person to date. Hermione. Their bond and connection, which Harry may not yet have recognised as love, is nonetheless IMO the only basis for his model and we may therefore also plausibly put forth that in our opinion, this model itself is or will be...Harry’s goal. Following the theory, Ron’s feelings by this model will not have impressed Harry as meeting the criteria for a love relationship that his own feelings [we suspect] are coming to do, thus Harry may well feel that Ron won’t cut it for a relationship with Hermione by Harry’s own standards -- particularly if the respect is not mutual or worse, the disrespect often is mutual -- which we hope will give Harry additional impetus to own up to and act on his own feelings
Ginny explained by Earendil
Part1:
Ginny is the youngest child and only girl of a family full of boys. I would infer that she has been treated as just this her entire life: a little girl. Not as another sibling or another brother for the boys to play around with; just as the solitary daughter in a house full to the brim of sons. Even Mrs. Weasley has shown almost ridiculous treatment of Ginny as a child by not letting her into a pyramid full of skeletons at the age of twelve. Honestly, I'm positive that she could have handled that. Anyway, this behaviour is understandable; girls are frequently regarded as being more delicate and/or precious when there are more boys in a family.
However, as Ginny grows up, she seems to be rebelling against these restrictions. We know that she was never allowed to play Quidditch with her brothers, yet she continued to learn to do so behind their backs and had enough skill to make the team. We know that she can lie through her teeth, even to her own mother, and even surprised Hermione with her ability to quickly think of a blatant lie. And I would bet my life that Mrs. Weasley doesn't know that Ginny has started dating.
Ginny seems to be trying to prove herself and her maturity, both to her peers and to herself. After being babied and coddled all her life, it's perfectly reasonable that she's engaging in a little rebellion away from home. Also, there's evidence that she's alot more magically powerful than she seems.
However worthy she may be, I honestly don't believe that she's intended for Harry, and here's one of the many reasons why: she needs someone who has been able to respect and admire her from the start. I believe that her friendship with Harry has been tainted by her silly behaviour toward him from the first four books, and by the necessity of being rescued by him in CoS. I'm not saying that he doesn't like and respect her, but there is still that initial impression of the little girl who could barely talk in front of him and always dropped things whenever he looked at her, lasting for almost four years. This first impression will not easily be erased, no matter how much Ginny comes into her own and becomes a mature and powerful witch. There won't be enough time to gradually work in a newfound perception of Ginny, even if it has already started, because the image of her little-girlish crush is too strongly imprinted in Harry's mind. Even in OotP, he dismissed her as being too young to accompany them to the DoM. No matter how many Bat-Bogey Hexes she inflicts on people, I don't believe that Harry will be able to perceive Ginny as his equal in the next two books, and equality is essential in a relationship. He will want to shield her and protect her rather than go to her for help and counsel, and he will be under pressure from the Weasley’s to protect her as well, because she will always be their little girl to them.
Which is where Neville comes in. Neville suffers from similar treatment; his abilities are rarely acknowledged and his grandmother seems to be more concerned with keeping him out of trouble than building up his self-confidence. I see alot of similarities between Neville and Ginny, and I believe that this gives them common ground. There is also the fact that Neville saw in Ginny what Harry seems to yet to discover; that she is a dateable girl. Even if he trod on her toes at the Yule Ball, he at least paid her enough attention to make a girl feel respected. Ginny seems to want to build up Neville's self-confidence, and Neville risked suffocation to save her from the Slytherins. I think that if anyone can view Ginny as being a woman rather than a girl, a talented and powerful witch rather than just another Weasley, it will be Neville
Part2:
I simply cannot see a deep or meaningful relationship developing between Harry and Ginny. And here's why.
From the beginning of Harry's Hogwarts experience, he has had Ron and Hermione as his best friends. And from the beginning, it's been fairly clear that Hermione tagged along with Harry and Ron (who were, of course, friends first), and that her presence was mostly an annoyance. However, the three of them soon became friends through a number of circumstances that we're all familiar with, so I won't recap them any further. The point is, it has always been Harry, Ron, and Hermione: the trio. They've shared things that no one else has any experience with, no matter who they hear it from second-hand. They've spent most of their waking hours together, had fun together, studied together, fought together, been almost killed together, you get my point. And while we know that Hermione can be something of an annoyance in her practicality, she still remains Harry's friend. Why? Why doesn't he just stop talking to her, or try to avoid her, or tell her that he doesn't want her advice or her nagging or mollycoddling or whatever you want to call it? Because she is his friend. I don't see any stronger foundation for a meaningful relationship than friendship, and Hermione has been there with Harry, sharing in his problems and his trials and his tribulations, from the beginning.
Harry needs both his friends for different reasons. We are all familiar with these reasons, but allow me to expound on what Hermione brings to the trio, as a few of us seem to be labouring under the impression that she isn't as useful as she seems. She is the smartest student of the year, no questions about it, and in every single year Harry has been at Hogwarts, Hermione's intelligence has managed to get him out of something. If I'm not much mistaken, whenever there is a problem, Hermione has a solution. So what if she panics in physical danger? She never does anything stupid under pressure to jeopardize Harry, even when she does panic at times. In the end, she manages to do her part for the team, and without her, Harry and Ron would probably still be getting throttled by that Devil's Snare from four years ago.
Now, as you can see, Hermione does indeed provide Harry with intellectual and practical support. But Mutant for Hire brought up an interesting question: can she provide him with emotional support as well? My answer is this: no one can do this better than Hermione. She genuinely cares about him and his well being; open any of the five books at random and chances are, you will see an example of Hermione showing genuine concern and anxiety for Harry and his welfare. Harry is not someone who can easily be reached and comforted; he doesn't trust or open up willingly. And if there is a time in the next two books that Harry opens his heart and lets anyone in on what he is going through, it will have to be someone he trusts explicitly, someone who has been there for him since he entered the wizarding world, someone who has shared some of what he has gone through in the past five years. And, no matter how much Ginny is in his life in OotP, she has been quite conspicuously absent for the previous two books, with only fleetingly insignificant appearances every now and then. No matter how hard I try, I cannot picture Harry being able to truly open up to Ginny and to share his feelings of the pain he is going through, because he simply does not know her well enough.
I won't deny that Harry likes Ginny as a person and as an acquaintance. He certainly sees enough of her when he's staying with the Weasleys, and they seem to get along quite well. However, one conversation in the library and one conversation at Grimmauld Place in which Ginny gives Harry inaccurate advice does not indicate to me that they are developing a deep or meaningful relationship. Especially compared with the number of times in which Harry and Hermione have had one-on-one conversations during which Harry, albeit grudgingly, does indeed divulge some of his feelings to her. And let's not forget that OotP is the first book that Ginny is actually able to have a normal conversation with Harry, without becoming horribly embarrassed or doing something silly out of flusteredness. This is the first year that they've actually been able to become something like friends, compared to the past five years that Harry and Hermione have been deeply close friends.
So, to conclude, I personally cannot picture H/G having any type of relationship other than one by default. I've noticed that the OBHWF scenario is highly popular, because the trio becomes one giant family and everything ties together neatly. And, from a literary standpoint, this looks quite nice: to have the hero marry into his best friend's family and become like brothers. Unfortunately, no matter how much Ginny has developed or grown or even become "worthy", she and Harry will never be able to achieve the same depth in their relationship that Hermione and Harry have already been developing for the past five years. Hermione has a special purpose in Harry's life, and it makes one wonder why JKR has been diligently including instances of an increasingly meaningful friendship between these two if she wants her to be replaced by Ginny as the most important female in Harry's life.
Hermione's feelings of doubt by Sone
You know, I keep thinking about when Hermione asked Harry to help her sew elf clothes. I swear this boy can be EXTREMELY ignorant at times (though I admit at 15, I was just as ignorant).
Anyway, Harry does not even bother to ask himself "why would she ask me to help her sew elf clothes? Where would she get the idea that I know how to sew magically or otherwise? Have I ever given her the slightest impression that I was interested in S.P.E.W.?"
I am sure Harry thought that Hermione’s face was only shining with glee, because of S.P.E.W. I think it was because she was really hoping Harry would simply say yes. Not to mention her reaction when she thought Harry was a prefect. Now if Hermione just wanted Harry to help her sew elf hats, then where is the disappointment coming from? What I mean is, she knows Harry has never taken that kind of interest in S.P.E.W. nor has he been known to sew. Even magically, it takes skill and she never bothers to ask whether Harry can sew or not. What also interests me is when she says, 'I'm getting better, I can do patterns and bobbles and all sorts of things now.' I thought this was kind of funny because IMO, she was trying to impress him. Harry, who probably does not have the slightest clue to any of this, is just thinking why would I want to sew elf clothes? And says no.
I think Hermione really does have some confidence issues concerning a lot of things but most of all, Harry. I said on the last thread that Harry rejecting Hermione's offer for him to help her with the elf clothes hurt more than she let on. I still believe this is true because I don't believe she took it as Harry not wanting to sew elf clothes. I think she took it as Harry not wanting to spend time with her. She thought maybe Harry doesn't like me; maybe he thinks I am ugly or maybe he just thinks I am not interesting at all.
I think Hermione for certain was jealous of Cho not just because she kissed Harry, but because Cho did what Hermione was afraid to do. Hermione was too afraid of being rejected by Harry, so she tried advancing on him in a roundabout way (the elf clothes issue) that wouldn't be too hurtful to her if he said no, which is why she looked only slightly disappointed. But Harry and Cho should have given Hermione a clue. The only time Cho was ever really successful with Harry (kissing him I mean) was when she was direct with him. She revealed all her feelings to Harry in the DA room, how upset she still was at Cedric being dead, how good of a teacher she thought he was and the fact she did like him. Cho advanced on Harry in ways Hermione has been too afraid to do for three years (three years IMO). I am also sure that Hermione felt worse because Harry does back flips for a girl that is not like herself. She is pretty, popular, athletic and plays Quidditch. Hell, she is even smart. She is in Ravenclaw after all. Hermione’s confidence I think really went down the tubes here. Hermione does not really like Quidditch itself, is not popular, is afraid of flying, not athletic at all and she herself has never thought of herself as pretty. To herself, I'm thinking she asks how could I ever think I could be appealing to Harry Let alone all the people in their fourth year who called Hermione the thing Krum would miss most. She is so upset by all of this; she does not even notice that Harry really is not as happy as he should be about finally kissing his crush. When Hermione told Harry that girls do not ask questions like that, she was also speaking about herself. Harry said, 'well they should'. Hermione should very well listen to Harry on that. With that said, let me explain why I think Hermione started to have real feelings for Harry back in the Prisoner of Azkaban.
In the Chamber of Secrets, Hermione fell for Gilderoy Lockhart, not just because he was handsome but also because she thought he was very brave in all those books he wrote about himself doing great things. Hermione very much likes bravery. As a matter of fact, this is the first thing she finds appealing about Viktor and then finds much to her liking that he is a lot more complex than what he is given credit for. Harry to Hermione is all these things. A female friend of mine once told me that she thought Harry having jet black hair and brilliant green eyes was a very appealing look. Not to mention that though Harry is skinny and has almost knobbly knees, he is quite athletic and I think would his build would reveal as such. In my opinion only, but I think these things very much appeal to Hermione.
Also Gilderoy made a living writing about stories of bravery and heroics that he was not capable of. Not Harry. Harry is actually who Gilderoy wants to be; famous, rich, brave and heroic. Hermione does not care for the famous or rich part, but she does very much care for the brave and heroic part. Hermione I believe had the same reaction back in the first and second year that Lavender Brown and Hannah Abbott had when they hear about all the things Harry had done in their fifth year. It is one thing to save the stone from Voldemort, but killing a Basilisk with nothing but a sword, at age twelve no less. I think Hermione started believing near the end of the book that Harry really is great. Of course as Hermione starts to know Harry more and more she finds out that not only does he have a sharp mind (she was quite impressed with Harry being able to pick up the clues from the page she tore out and getting some external clues himself in COS), but that Harry has an unusual amount of strength, courage and determination in him. I believe she is very taken by this. It was in POA, Hermione started for the first time holding on to Harry’s arm when she was scared. Like I said, she likes bravery and Harry exudes so much of it. She feels safe and/or steadier when she does. The hippogriff was also a clear sign of this. It is the first time Hermione really starts crying (or is in tears) in fear of Harry dying. It was also the first time I saw Hermione feeling particularly competitive about Harry beating Slytherin in Quidditch because she could not stand to see Malfoy win. That tension she so detested in OOTP.
(Flying Phoenix) Quote:
She is so upset by all of this; she does not even notice that Harry really is not as happy as he should be about finally kissing his crush. When Hermione told Harry that girls do not ask questions like that, she was also speaking about herself. Harry said, 'well they should'. Hermione should very well listen to Harry on that. With that said, let me explain why I think Hermione started to have real feelings for Harry back in the Prisoner of Azkaban.
That’s the very point where I disagree. I don't think Hermione didn't get it that Harry wasn't that happy about this kiss. No, I do think she did get it very well because how she react she is rather distant and brisk what say to me that she don't like the way how Cho do corner Harry. How I did explain is it that Cho has unsolved feelings and isn't sure if she even like Harry though she is selfish enough to do so. Maybe there is a part true what you say that Hermione think if she could be only a tiny bit more selfish in that case. But Hermione does in the same time dislike Cho for this because this girl bring pressure on Harry. She makes his difficult life more difficult with her selfish doing. There is where I think is Hermione’s real problem not that much Harry don’t want spent time with her. Its much more the problem that she might make Harry’s live with her feelings more difficult.
How much I do see your points with that Hermione has feelings since PoA so much do I disagree. Not complete off course you are right that there do Hermione start to grap after Harry’s arm and is much more emotional but this don’t say she has since that a crush at Harry. That’s says only this friendship feelings are growing deeper maybe cross the line but Hermione isn’t aware of it. Not till GoF at the end or even till OotP. I'm not sure if she admit it that she has feelings beyond friendship for Harry. It’s even possible that she half does believe there is more and half believe its still friendship.
Gifts to Hermione by Hawk92
Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sing of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,
Page 503 US version,
"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusual, Ron."
Emphasis JKR.
Now at an initial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts
Now a slightly deeper look;
I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpretation.
The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favourite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favourite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favourite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.
And now for what's truly interesting. The grammar. Hmm the grammar, that sounds weird even to me.
*Hawk takes out his old grade school English book*
Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.
exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark
And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion
So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.
The debate over Sirius by Flying Phoenix
Out of the fire:
Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his head.
Says Harry need to find his two best friends as fast as possible. Harry didn’t think if this dream was real or not. He didn't waste any time to think about it. Just how old Voldi boy wanted it.
He was running again , pushing students out of the way, oblivious to their angry protest. He sprinted back down two floors and was at top of the marble staircase when he saw them hurrying toward them. "Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened "What happened? Are you all right? Are you ill?"
Still Harry doesn’t think he just act till he find his two best friends. Now Hermione’s reaction first impression she is very frightened. This say she is scary. But why? Harry did fall from the chair screaming like mad. Something what Hermione didn't see till this day by Harry. Even she see him that he can stand on his own feet and that he is breathing fast from running she still ask if he is all right?! In this scene that is how I do interpret it is like that Hermione shows her worry which she had since the day Dumbledore is away from Hogwarts and did built up more and more by everyday. By everything did happen since this day at Hogwarts. They are alone and Harry did faint like in GoF and at this time was it the badest sign what could happen. She might be very aware at this moment that they are really alone.
"Where have you been?" demanded Ron
Ron’s reaction is rather normal without that much emotion like Hermione. Because Ron know this by Harry already and don't think that much about it. For me dos it seems like that. Even his question isn't that smart. I mean where could someone been if he did faint in his exam? Just guessing in the library or Griffindor Tower or maybe on a place where ill people go?! That shows me Ron didn't think about this situation.
"Voldemort's got Sirius."
"What?"
"How d'you- ?"
"Saw it. Just now. When I fell asleep in the exam."
"But - but where? How?" said Hermione, whose face was white.
Second impression Hermione’s reaction again her face is white. That is an impression of shock if I get this right. So she have to believe Harry at this moment or her highest or unpleasant worry comes true. Which she fears the most that Harry might get such a dream which is a trap.
"I dunno how," said Harry. "But I know exactly where. There's a room in the DoM full of shelves covered in these little glass balls and they're at the end of row ninety-seven...he’s trying to use Sirius to get whatever he wants from in there...he's torturing him...says he'll end by killing him!"
Harry found his voice was shaking, as were his knees. He moved over to a desk and sat down on it, trying to master himself.
The interest part is how little Harry describes what really to Sirius is happening. Harry did more describe how the room looks where the prophecy lies. As he gots to the part about Sirius he sound unsure and not really knowing what he is saying at this point. More interest that both Ron and Hermione don't react. Harry has even time to recognise that his knees and his voice is shaking and that he goes slowly to a desk and sit on it. Still no reaction.
"How're we going to get there?" he asked them.
There was a moment's silence. Then Ron said "G-get, there?"
"Get to the DoM, so we can rescue Sirius!"
Harry said loudly.
"But - Harry..." said Ron weakly.
"What? WHat?" said Harry.
He could not understand why they were both gaping at him as though he was asking them something unreasonable.
Interest again that Harry don't give Ron a chance to speak why he say but. The whole time Hermione is quiet don't say a word since Harry has ended with his explanation. You can nearly loud hear her thinking about all this stuff. How the last weeks and months running through her head and how this what Harry just said runs through her head. In the whole Time Harry isn't thinking not since he had this dream in his exam. He takes it for what it is. That’s what Hermione get as Harry sit there on the desk and act as if both didn't understand what he just had said.
"Harry," said Hermione in a rather frightened voice. "er...how...how did Voldemort get into the MoM without anybody realising he was there?"
"How do I know?" bellowed Harry. "The question is how we're going to get in there!"
"But...Harry, think about this," said Hermione, taking a step towards him, "it’s five o'clock in this afternoon...the MoM must be full of workers...how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry...they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world... you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?"
" I dunno, Voldemort used an Invisibility Cloak or something!" Harry shouted. "Anyway, the DoM has always completely empty whenever I've been -"
"You've never been there, Harry," said Hermione quietly "You've dreamed about the place, that’s all."
"They're not normal dreams" Harry shouted in her face, standing up and taking a step closer to her in turn. He wanted to shake her. "How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?"
Again a whole passage where Ron seems not to be there. Not once did Ron ask questions like Hermione did. Till to this point Hermione sounds sympatric and even kinda warm if you ask me. Anyway in that part is not once a sign that she sounds cruel. I hope we see it alike. To every question Hermione ask Harry. He can only say "I dunno!" that’s all. He didn't think about it that’s why he want shake her. He wants that she stop to think about this things and run with him to the DoM without a question. Without a doubt. It’s again like fire and water this argument they have. Hermione is quieter and take a step to him because of sympatric. Harry is loud and takes a step to her because he wants that she stop to think about it. Its even interest how Hermione start to speak its kinda searching after words and to sound gentle and not harsh. To bring him on her side of thinking about this situation. Ron don't has an opinion not in the beginning and not now. He is just standing there and listen what both say and he have to recognise that Hermione has by far the better points though he take Harry’s mentioning of Ron's father and is suddenly for Harry.
"He's got a point," said Ron quietly, looking at Hermione.
"But this is just - just so unlikely!" said Hermione desperately. "Harry, how on earth could Voldemort have got hold of Sirius when he’s been in Grimmauld Place all the time?"
"Sirius might've cracked and just wanted some fresh air," said Ron, sounding worried. "He's been desperate to get out of that house for ages -"
"But why." Hermione persisted, "why on earth would Voldemort want use Sirius to get the weapon, or whatever the thing is?"
Now is Ron, too against Hermione. Harry and Ron do argue in an unreasonable way with Hermione. That say Hermione could write a novel with the best arguments neither of them would listen to her. This means an unbelievable high pressure on her. If we get it straight what she already might think about this whole story or better since Harry had this dream about Mr. Weasley. Since this day Hermione has to know that Harry’s dreams can go both ways and that Voldemort has enough power to sent a trap. Its what might have lead her to annoy Harry about this extra lessons with Snape. This are highest fears. Hermione seems to get it that as Ron takes Harry’s side that she is losing this argument and if she losing this argument that implied that she is losing Harry. Because she has this fear that this dream is a trap in which Harry gonna step. Hermione is desperate and persist at this point. As she said why Sirius to get the weapon? This implied Voldemort want Harry to get the weapon and NOT Sirius. But nobody of them is listening.
"I dunno, there could be loads of reasons!" Harry yelled at her. "Maybe Sirius is just someone Voldemort doesn't care about seeind hurt -"
"You know what, I've just thought of something," said Ron in a hushed voice. "Sirius' brother was a DE, wasn't he? Maybe he told Sirius the secret of how to get the weapon!"
"Yeah - and that's why Dumbledore's been so keen to keep Sirius up all the time!" said Harry.
Now what have we now? Right Ron gives his famous absolute illogical theory to this argument. He is particularly helping Harry to search after any reasons for Voldemort’s doing. I mean if you read this don't you think how absurd this sound? I mean Sirius brother was unimportant how in the world should this guy know how to get the weapon and over all why dos Voldi need these weapon now if He could easily ask 15 or 16 years ago as Sirius's brother was alive. This argument is nonsense.
"Look, I’m sorry," cried Hermione, "But neither of you is making sense, and we’ve got no proof for any of this, no proof Voldemort and Sirius are even there -"
"Hermione, Harry’s seen them!" said Ron, rounding on her.
"OK," she said, looking frightened yet determined "I've just got to say this-"
How long did Hermione hold this back now? Very long if I look at my post now. This is the very last thing what Hermione want to say. She tried with logic, with why Voldi and Sirius can't be there and she did has a point every time did she has one. But now after both start with illogical arguments and as Ron is against Hermione, too. Is it the last thing what Hermione can do to save Harry. To hold him back to run into this trap. She gonna tell Harry now that what she thought by her own. Her fears since the day Harry did dream about Mr. Weasley and much more since Dumbledore is away from Hogwarts.
"You..this isn't a criticism, Harry! But you do..sort of...I mean - don't you think you've got a bit of - a - saving-people thing?" she said.
He glared at her.
"And what’d that supposed to mean, a "saving-people thing"?"
"Well...you..." she looked more apprehensive than ever "I mean... last year, for instance...in the lake...during the Tournament...you shouldn't have...I mean, you didn't need to save that little Delacour girl...you got a bit...carried away..."
She is again searching after words so she doesn’t want say it and don't have the right words for to say it at all. Even her first example is out of the Voldemort context so Harry won't hear that he did something wrong in that case. What I mean is that it’s not easy for Hermione to say that in general and not in a situation like that where she is positive under pressure. But she searches after every bit to hold Harry back to run into Voldemort’s arms.
A wave of hot, prickly anger swept through Harry's body; how could she remind him of that blunder now?
"I mean, it was great of you and everything," said Hermione quickly, looking positively petrified at the look on Harry’s face. "everyone thought it was wonderful thing to do -"
"That's funny," said Harry through gritted teeth, "because I definitely remember Ron saying I'd wasted time acting the hero...is that what you think this is? You reckon I want to act the hero again?"
"No,no,no!" said Hermione, looking aghast "That’s not what I mean at all!"
This is important, I think. Because there Harry say where he see the different between Ron and Hermione. Ron did think Harry acting the hero and Harry think that Hermione didn't think that from him till this point. That explain Harry’s reaction, his anger because he didn't think he would hear this from Hermione.
That’s what H/Hr did say is special by Hermione that she don't see Harry Potter in him and here at this point he say it and act by himself that he do think that about her.
"Well, spit out what you've got to say, because we're wasting time here!" Harry shouted.
"I'm trying to say - Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the COS to lure you there, its the kind of thing he does, he knows you're the - the sort of person who'd go to Sirius's aid! What if he's just trying to get you into the DoM--?"
"Hermione, it doesn’t matter if he's done it to get me there or not - they've taken McGonagall to St.Mungos, there isn't anyone from OotP left at Hogwarts who can tell, and if we don't go, Sirius id dead!"
"But Harry - what if your dream was - was just, a dream?" Harry let out a roar of frustration. Hermione actually stepped back from him, looking alarmed
"You don't get it!" Harry shouted at her, "I’m not having nightmares, I'm not just dreaming! What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him. Voldemort’s got him, and no one else knows, and that means we're the only ones who can save him, and if you don't want to do it, fine, but I'm going, understand? And if I remember rightly, you didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a problem!" said Ron heatedly.
Harry didn't get it in this scene. What he says is illogical why should DD stop Harry’s dreams if only Harry can see things in his dreams and if only he can see Voldemort? It’s a question which answer itself and Harry don't see it. He is so much in this Sirius thing that he don't see it. That say Hermione couldn't hold him back for nothing on earth. But why is this arguing there on this place? Why dos JKR write it if this won't change anything if Hermione is the only one who thinks right? I tell you its there for book 6. This where Harry gets that he should have listen to her. Its again interest that Ron don't say anything even he have to get this question which Harry answer himself wrong. How I said this is important for book 6 that’s where Harry get that he can count on Hermione even in such a situation where Hermione is standing on the wall against her two best friends and try to stop them to do this what she think is wrong.
"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you’d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"
"IF YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO ACT LIKE I HAVEN'T SEEN- "
"Sirius told you there was nothing more important than you learning to close your mind!"
"WELL, EXPECT HE'D SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IF HE KNEW WHAT I'D JUST-"
Still Harry don't get it what Hermione mean not at all. Still I don't get what is cruel in that what Hermione says. Just curious.
"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperately "Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d-do whatever it takes to try and save him."...."But if this is a trick of Voldemort’s, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to."
Begging, a strong word, or? This part here shows how important this is for Hermione, how important it is to know Harry is save. That he don't get into Voldemort’s trap. She is even little bit stuttering that Harry listen to her. You know female intuition I think that’s somehow the case here.
"I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone. Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it," Even through his anger and impatience, He recognised Hermione’s offer to accompany him into Umbridge’s office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.
Now comes my point. Hermione could have sorted herself with Luna and say to Ginny she go with Harry. But she didn’t do it though its a pretty unpleasant moment after such a huge with so much emotions and fears dropping argument to hang around with this guy who yelled at you or with this guy who don't want to listen to you even your greatest fear is to lose him and still he want bring himself into danger. That’s why I said this do friends, this do people who care deeply for someone they stay to this guy even its uncomfortable and even this tension is still there. Hermione didn't sort herself to Luna to get away from Harry. No she didn't do it because she want show Harry that no matter how much they disagree and argue she will stand by his side. That’s something really huge. If you know how people feel after an argument they don’t stay together they do avoid each other till the tension is faded away.
Now about this Nifflers. Don't nobody think that Ginny has her fingers in this? I mean she could have helped Lee, just a thought.
Analysis of Ron and Hermione's fights by Earendil
We all know that Ron and Hermione argue. It's one of the indisputable facts of life. Many view their arguing as a sign of hidden attraction, pent-up frustration, or this indefinable "chemistry" that I so often hear about. Before we all accept this as smoking-gun support for the R/Hr ship, it's important to look at the style of arguing, context and subject of the argument, and the resolution of the dispute. Any relationship cannot sustain itself on tension and debate alone; there must be significant evidence of mutual respect and consideration, even when a couple is disagreeing with each other. I believe that Ron and Hermione display neither respect nor consideration for the other when they are arguing, and this is one of the many reasons why this couple is incompatible in my perspective.
In this instalment of my analysis, I'll briefly outline each argument (even the insignificant ones) from SS/PS and CoS. This does not include the various occasions in which either Ron or Hermione will insult the other with no rebuttal: I'm only referring to two-sided arguments here. (Otherwise, this would be around fifty-eight pages.) Each subsequent book will require its own instalment, as the arguments become more intense and more illuminating.
Sorcerer’s Stone (Philosopher's Stone): "The Midnight Duel", pg 155-156 {US Edition}
It was Hermione Granger, wearing a pink bathrobe and a frown.
"You!" said Ron furiously. "Go back to bed!"
"I almost told your brother," Hermione snapped. "Percy--he's a prefect, he would put a stop to this."
Harry couldn't believe anyone could be so interfering.
"Now what am I going to do?" she asked shrilly.
"That's your problem," said Ron. "We've got to go, we're going to be late."
They hadn't even reached the end of the corridor when Hermione caught up with them.
"I'm coming with you," she said.
"You are NOT."
"D'you think I'm going to stand here and wait for Filch to catch me? If he finds all three of us, I'll tell him the truth, that I was trying to stop you, and you can back me up."
"You've got some nerve--" said Ron loudly.
First, Ron tries to order her to go back to bed. Not a good thing. Then, instead of ignoring her, which is what Harry does, he answers back rudely and displays his utter lack of concern for her. Now, for Hermione--apart from following the other two and poking into their business, she even makes the statement that she's going to rat on them if they all get caught, and that the other two should support her. Not a good thing either. The worst thing of all is that this isn't even one of the more personal fights in the series between Ron and Hermione, so I'll leave it alone as much as I can. This is at best an example of Ron and Hermione's different personalities clashing, but the worst is yet to come.
SS/PS: "Halloween", pg. 171-172
"You're saying it wrong," Harry heard Hermione snap. "It's Win-gar-dium levi-o-sa, make the "gar" nice and long."
"You do it, then, if you're so clever," Ron snarled.
Hermione rolled up the sleeves of her gown, flicked her wand, and said, "Wingardium leviosa!"
The feather rose of the desk and hovered about four feet above their heads.
"Oh, well done!" cried Professor Flitwick, clapping. "Everyone see here, Miss Granger's done it!"
Ron was in a very bad mood by the end of class.
"It's no wonder no one can stand her," said Ron to Harry as they pushed their way through the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly."
Hermione belittles Ron's intelligence by telling him he's doing it wrong, and Ron belittles hers with the "...if you're so clever" remark. And when she shows him up, he's even angrier. This is where it all begins: I seriously do not think that Ron will be able to handle Hermione always one-upping him. Ron needs to excel; he needs to be with a girl who will not always be willing to make him look bad to enhance her own intelligence--which is what Hermione does. Even as of OotP, Ron is annoyed by the fact that Hermione constantly surpasses him intellectually. He can't keep up with her, and this BOTHERS him.
We also see one of the many occasions throughout the series in which Ron makes a snide remark about Hermione behind her back. What's interesting is that Hermione has said a few rather nasty things about Ron behind his back as well, though this only occurs around GoF and OotP (possibly because this is when we see more of Harry and Hermione alone). Trust is important in a relationship, no doubt, and I have a hard time picturing alot of trust springing up between two people who have been known to make a few disparaging remarks about the other, unbeknownst to them.
--------------------------------------------
Obviously, there aren't many full-blown arguments between Ron and Hermione in SS/PS. The trio are not as close, and are therefore not as comfortable with disagreeing with each other yet. However, it's clear from the beginning of the series that Hermione has no problem with snapping, snarling, or insulting Ron--and Ron is very obviously irritated and annoyed by her superior and uptight attitude. Now, what about Harry? He's obviously irritated by Hermione as well. The difference is that Harry deals with it by ignoring the offensive behaviour rather than reacting to it, and generally not giving her as much cause to be annoying as Ron does. I daresay I'm not the only one who has noticed that we see alot less of Hermione snapping needlessly at Harry than at Ron. She shows more admiration for Harry's accomplishments and respect for Harry's abilities, and limits her irritable snapping and supercilious behaviour to Ron.
Examples of Ron talking about Hermione behind her back
1. "Whatever house I'm in, I hope she's not in it..." (pg. 106}
2. "It's no wonder no one can stand her," said Ron to Harry as they pushed their way through the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." "She must've noticed she's got no friends."(pg. 172)
Let me make it very clear that I find this to be perfectly understandable at this point. The trio are not officially friends in the two examples above, and it's completely normal for Ron to be insulting her to Harry. However, it's interesting that we never see Harry reply or initiate any Hermione-bashing. This is for character reasons, obviously, but I'm not surprised that Rowling made the point of illustrating the contrast between Harry and Ron's opinions of Hermione. Harry is indifferent, though he is aware of her annoying nature, and Ron is actively bothered by it. Harry chooses to ignore it, while Ron chooses to perpetuate it by retaliating. The interesting thing is, Harry and Hermione's friendship has developed so much that Harry now remarks openly when Hermione bothers him and is not reluctant to disagree or take notice of her flaws, while Ron and Hermione's friendship is almost exactly the same--but with more fighting.
Chamber of Secrets:"Gilderoy Lockhart", pg. 89
Hermione closed Voyages With Vampires and looked down at the top of Ron's head.
"Well, I don't know what you expected, Ron, but you--"
"Don't tell me I deserved it," Ron snapped.
This is one of the reasons why the assertion from the R/Hr ship that Hermione shows more concern for Ron than Harry simply baffles me. The part of the passage preceding the excerpt I posted shows that Ron is clearly humiliated, mortified, and absolutely horrified at the Howler--and all that Hermione can do is begin to tell him that he deserved it. Now where do we see Hermione expressing the same "I told you so" attitude towards Harry? Harry goofs and gets his comeuppance plenty of times, and Hermione never tells him he deserved it. Before an opposing shipper attempts to list an example of Hermione doing just that, let me just say that Ron does the exact same thing to Hermione in GoF when she gets the hate mail from the Daily Prophet readers. He even says, "I told her!" This is yet another instance of Ron and Hermione caring mostly about one-upping each other rather than disputing and disagreeing constructively.
Also, this is one of the less funny moments of tension between Ron and Hermione. Alot of shippers claim that their arguments or disputes are interesting, witty, and amusing--well, this is a little more serious. Ron is upset, and he snaps at her when she tries to tell him that he deserved it. Not much sparkage here.
CoS: "The Writing on the Wall", pg. 148
"Hermione, let me read your composition," said Ron desperately, checking his watch.
"No, I won't," said Hermione, suddenly severe. "You've had ten whole days to finish it--"
"I only need another two inches, come on--"
The bell rang. Ron and Hermione led the way to History of Magic, bickering.
So, here we have Ron trying to use Hermione as a human cheat sheet, for about the eightieth time. Hermione made it clear from the moment the trio started being friends in SS that she wouldn't let them copy her homework. That's not unreasonable; why can't Ron respect that? Why don't we see Harry constantly trying to mooch of Hermione's work? Ron knows that she won't let him copy, yet he asks her if he can--and then they persist in arguing the point, even though both of them know that the other will not yield. If Ron respected Hermione's aversion to copying--or if Hermione was willing to compromise and help a friend in need--it would show that the two of them have respect for each other's opinions and needs. Instead, they continue to bicker pointlessly.
CoS: "The Rogue Bludger", pg. 163
"I don't believe it," he said as the three of them examined the signature on the note. "He didn't even look at the book we wanted."
"That's because he's a brainless git," said Ron. "But who cares, we've got what we needed--"
"He's NOT a brainless git," said Hermione shrilly as they half ran toward the library.
"Just because he said you were the best student in the year--"
Ron insults Lockhart, even though he knows that Hermione in all her foolish fancy is going to rise to the bait and defend him. And she does--shrilly, no less. It seems that Ron enjoys belittling Hermione's status as a school-obsessed brainiac. (NOTE: This is not Ron-bashing.) We see it in SS, when he snaps at her to show him how to do the flying charm "if you're so clever", we see it when he sneers at her being flattered at being called the best student of the year, we see it when he teases her about her boggart being a piece of homework that only got nine out of ten in PoA--it's good-natured and not intended to be hurtful, certainly. But why does he constantly need to draw attention to the fact that Hermione is obsessed with her schoolwork? I think he's so threatened by this that he can't help but belittle it, even in jest. He rarely shows admiration for her efforts; he chooses to tease her about it instead. This ties in with my belief that if Ron and Hermione do end up together, it will seriously bother him that Hermione is so much more academically adept than he is. Hermione will never be able to revere and admire Ron the way that she does with Harry because of her magical talent, and this is a weak point in the R/Hr ship, like it or not.
-------------------------------------
Obviously, Ron and Hermione's arguments in the first two books are limited to superficially harmless sparring, illustrating at the very worst the manner in which their personalities clash and at the very best their ability to put such arguments behind them. Unfortunately, this isn't much of a strong point either. Rather than compromise or apologize, the arguments are cut off or merely forgotten, allowing negative thoughts and feelings of temporary animosity linger unaddressed. These arguments are more expository than plot-related, to develop the combative relationship that Ron and Hermione have as of OotP. It does more than that: it shows how incompatible their personalities are. I believe that Harry and Hermione are two sides of the same coin, while Ron and Hermione are as different as nickels and pennies. Their differences clash rather than complement each other, and this is evident in these expository disputes. We have yet to see the serious blowouts, as of PoA and GoF, but the fundamental pattern is the same: useless sparring over stupid little things, insulting, attempting to one-up the other, pointless snapping, and rarely any conclusive resolution. My question is: is this a good sign for a loving and stable romantic relationship?
(Evaluna) Quote:
Even as of OotP, Ron is annoyed by the fact that Hermione constantly surpasses him intellectually. He can't keep up with her, and this BOTHERS him.
Hear, hear!!! Brilliant post. I go now to savour the re-read.
Along those lines, just compare the above in OoP with Harry’s “surge of pride in Hermione’s jinxing abilities” [when caught holding DA mtgs, and no counter curse yet found for Hermione’s sneak jinx], his pride in Hermione’s Protean coin charm to summon the DA, and his comment to Cho that Hermione’s jinx was “brilliant”. Harry is proud of Hermione’s abilities, and he’s proud of her. Not threatened, not insecure. Harry has more than enough power and drive of his own; however, his character stands apart from this. Even from the start, as Earendil makes clear above, and even as first years before Harry had really come into his wizarding skills, Harry was not threatened by Hermione. Even from PS/SS, Harry comments that it’s good Hermione remembered critical info from Herbology at a life-or-death junction. Later, before facing Quirrel, Harry once again compliments her that she’s better than he, in the sense that she is more knowledgeable. Plus, there's no disputing that from Harry’s POV throughout the series, we have the mental comments that Hermione is the best in nearly every class in nearly every year. There is, BTW, no negative commentary attached to that from Harry's POV. That is, Harry notices her skills and he admires her for it, while in no way ever thinking, voicing, or behaving to indicate that he is threatened by her skills or jealous of her.
Interruptions by Hawk 92
JKR likes to keep us guessing and to keep us in suspense about our favourite characters. But at the same time she gives us ways to figure out what has been going on so that we do not feel cheated when these plot twists are given out. She creates a mystery but gives us the means to solve it. One way she gives hints is to give the hint and then shift our focus to another person or event. It is a rather interesting pattern that you can notice that she uses with several of her mysteries.
I noticed that she does the same thing with H/Hr moments in the story. In short whenever you get a H/Hr moment JKR puts something in there to shift your focus away from H/Hr. So it lead me to wonder if there was something there that JKR didn't want us to see too easy.
In all honesty if this had happened once or twice you could dismiss it as coincidence or mere chance or that I was reading too much into the moments. But there is an established pattern back to SS/PS which made me wonder if there isn't something there after all.
All pages and quotes come from the US versions of the HP series, and all emphasis is JKR and not mine.
PS/SS Ch16 Through the Trapdoor pg 286-287.
Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him.
"Hermione"
"Harry--you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you,"said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him.
"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things--friendship and bravery and --- oh Harry --be careful!"
"You drink first," said Harry.
Here we see in PS/SS a H/Hr moment and our attention is then immediately shifted to the bottle that they have to drink and the fact that one of these could be poison. After that our attention goes to Harry facing Voldemort and Quirrel.
Cos Chapter 14 Cornelius Fudge pg 256
McGonagall has just stopped the Quidditch match.
Then she (McGonagall) lowered the megaphone and beckoned Harry over to her.
“Potter, I think that you’d better come with me....”
Wondering how she could possibly suspect him this time, Harry saw Ron detach himself from the complaining crowd; he came running up to them as they set off towards the castle. To Harry’s surprise, Professor McGonagall didn’t object.
“Yes, perhaps you’d better come, too, Weasley.....”
Now Hermione had just been petrified and McGonagall, a teacher who JKR describes as very observant and does miss much seeks out Harry first to tell him. Then JKR inserts Ron and McGonagall includes him as an after thought. So a H/Hr moment has Ron inserted into it to confuse us (interrupt) with Ron.
PoA Chapter 12 The Patronus pg 250-251
“Can I sit down then? Harry asked Hermione.
“I suppose so ,” said Hermione, moving a great stack of parchment off a chair.
Harry looked around at the cluttered table, at the long Arthimancy essay on which the ink was still glistening, at the even longer Muggles Studies (“Explain Why Muggles Need Electricity”) and at the rune translation Hermione was now poring over.
“How are you getting through all this stuff?” Harry asked her.
“Oh, well - you know - working hard” said Hermione. Close up, Harry saw that she almost looked as tired as Lupin.
“Why don’t you just drop a couple of subjects?” Harry asked, watching her lifting books as she looked for her rune dictionary.
“I couldn’t do that!” said Hermione looking scandalized.
“Arthimancy looks terrible,” said Harry picking up a very complicated-looking number chart.
“Oh no, it’s wonderful!” said Hermione earnestly. “It’s my favourite subject! It’s - “
But exactly what was wonderful about Arithmancy, Harry never found out. At that precise moment, a strangled yell echoed down the boy’s staircase.
Insert Ron and the whole much debated Scabbers incident. So you see once again our attention is shifted from Harry and Hermione to Ron. And during this a rather long period of Hermione’s absence from the group.
GoF Ch 18 The Weighing of the Wands pg 290
Harry and Ron have just had their falling out because Harry was chosen as a school champion. And Hermione and Harry are talking about it.
Harry - “Maybe he’ll believe I’m not enjoying myself once I’ve got my neck broken or - “
“That’s not funny,” said Hermione quietly. “That’s not funny at all.” She looked extremely anxious. “Harry I’ve been thinking - you know what we’ve got to do, don’t you? Straight away, the moment that we get back to the castle?”
“Yeah, give Ron a good kick up the - “
“Write to Sirius”
Another moment interrupted by the insertion of Ron and then we focus on Harry telling Sirius so that our attention goes elsewhere.
Now in OotP the pattern remain Perdita in her excellent post, Very nicely done Perdy, already commented on the interruption with Harry and a possible second kiss so I won’t re-examine that one. Instead I’ll give you a new one to think about.
OotP Ch 26 Seen and Unseen pg 572
Hermione and Harry discussing Harry’s date with Cho.
Hermione - “And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too,” Hermione added as an afterthought.
“But I don’t think you’re ugly,” said Harry, bemused.
Hermione laughed.
“Harry, you’re worse than Ron.....Well, no, you’re not,” she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.
Another moment and surprise it’s interrupted by Ron again so that our focus is once again shifted to Ron.
Do you see the pattern?
Harry constantly thinks about Hermione by Perdita
Many non-H/Hr shippers have stated that Hermione’s presence in Harry’s mind is unwelcome, and that it will be a blockage to the development of a romantic relationship. Here is evidence to counter that assertion. The following are examples of instances when Harry thinks of Hermione’s voice and good comes out of it. And when good does not directly come out of it, Harry feels guilty. We know why at the end of OOTP.
Harry Constantly Thinks About Hermione, and Being Aware of It
OOTP, ch 18 Dumbledore’s Army
-Emphasis by Rowling
’Any time, Harry Potter, sir,’ said Dobby, looking delighted at Harry’s enthusiasm. ‘We could go now , if you like!’
For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. He was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione’s whispered in his ear: reckless. it was, after all, very late, he was exhausted, and had Snape’s essay to finish.
‘Not tonight, Dobby,’ said Harry reluctantly, sinking back into his chair. ‘This is really important…I don’t want to blow it, it’ll need proper planning. Listen, can you just tell me exactly where this Room of Req. is, and how to get in there?’
Here, we see Harry realizing the risks he would be taking if he were to go with Dobby. However, note that it was the Hermione-like voice in his head, like a warning that checked his actions.
-, ch 30 Grawp
-Emphasis is mine.
The problem was that with just under a month to go until the exams and every free moment devoted to revision, his mind seemed so saturated with information when he went to bed he found it very difficult to sleep at all; and when he did, his over-wrought brain presented him most nights with stupid dreams about the exams. He also suspected that part of his mind-the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice-now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journey’s end.
I expect I don’t have to explain the significance of this passage. We know very well what happened to Sirius because Harry would not close his mind off to those dreams using the Occlumency technique. Harry knows he’s doing something wrong because he feels guilty for not listening to Hermione’s voice. If he had listened to her, perhaps the ending of OOTP would have been very different.
-, ch 31 OWLs
During Harry’s exam, he either remembered past experiences with Hermione, or he remembered her handwriting. Even during a stressful time like writing his exams, Hermione was constantly surfacing in his consciousness. And good thing she did because these memories HELPED Harry to do well on the exams. H/Hr shippers have harped on the use of all the novels to find literary patterns in the story to support the H/Hr stance. Here is a breakdown of what memories came to Harry’s mind and which HP books that memory first appeared.
29. Charms Exam, wingardium leviosa and saving Hr from the troll. (PS/SS)
30. Potions Exam, the Polyjuice Potion that Hr brewed. (COS)
31. Astronomy Exam, Europa contains "ice, not mice," (OOTP, ch 14)
32. History of Magic Exam, remembering Hermione’s handwriting in her notes on the Formation of the International Confederation of Wizards. (OOTP, ch 31)
Here, I have counted 5 instances of Hermione’s presence in Harry’s consciousness having a positive effect. Only one instance did he refuse to listen and that is not Hermione’s fault.
Harry and the Love Room by Turambar
*Note: There was a mistake in the original post (Part1, rectified in Part2) where I forgot about the entrance door and thought that this was the entrance to the love room. But I think there is some merit in the theory that Harry with this particular dream was dreaming of the Love Room - also beyond the entrance door - rather than the room of spheres.
Part1:
Arguably the most difficult time for Harry during the year is when he thinks he is being possessed by Voldemort.
So we see Harry, Ron, the twins and Ginny sent to Sirius' house where they spend what Harry thinks is probably the longest night of his life.
He feels himself apart from the Weasley’s: "Harry and Sirius looked at each other every so often, intruders upon the family grief."
He feels guilt at his mysterious part in the incident with the snake.
Later when Molly arrives, again he feels apart: "he did not want to intrude on the Weasley's happiness". Molly hugs him but that doesn't make him feel better.
He tries to talk to Sirius who does his best to comfort him but Harry goes upstairs, too scared to sleep in case he attacks Ron or the others.
He can't talk to Ron about his thoughts.
He avoids Tonks when she starts to talk about it, and again he wants to stand back from the Weasleys when visiting Arthur but Molly pulls him in with them.
He then overhears the talk that Voldemort might be possessing him. He feels "dirty, contaminated as though he were carrying some dirty germ unworthy to sit .... with innocent, clean people whose minds and bodies were free of the taint of Voldemort."
Again Molly is unable to comfort him, he just wants to be alone.
Now it's interesting that during this whole period from when he went to bed and dreamt of Cho, who turned into Hermione, he hasn't thought of Hermione once.
Now you would think, judging by the rest of the book, he would have thought of her a few times in that whole passage: maybe about the fact that she doesn't know what's happened or how she would have reacted to the hospital.
JKR clearly wants the reader to temporarily forget about her ready for her sudden entry. In the meantime she lets Harry's mood become dramatically worse. He thinks about running away but gets a message from Dumbledore to stay put. We find out later that Hermione talked to Dumbledore. So is DD effectively saying help is on her way? (Remember the last time he wanted to run away? Before the first task when Hermione was the only one to help him).
Then we come to this:
"He felt as though he had journeyed for miles and miles ... it seemed impossible that less than 24 hours ago Cho Chang had been approaching him under the mistletoe ... he was so tired... he was scared to sleep ... yet he did not know how long he could fight it ... Dumbledore had told him to stay ... that must mean he was allowed to sleep ... but he was scared ... what if it happened again?
He was sinking into shadows.
It was as though a film in his head had been waiting to start.
He was walking down a deserted corridor towards a plain black door, past rough stone walls, torches, and an open doorway on to a flight of stone steps leading downstairs on the left...
He reached the black door but could not open it ... he stood gazing at it, desperate for entry ... something he wanted with all his heart lay beyond ... a prize beyond his dreams ... if only his scar would stop prickling ... then he would be able to think more clearly...
'Harry,' said Ron's voice, from far, far away, 'Mum says dinner's ready'...
Harry opened his eyes, but Ron had already left the room.
He doesn't want to be on his own with me, Harry thought."
This is clearly, in the midst of Harry's various dreams, visions and memories a dream about the love room in the MOM.
Says DD later: "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times ... It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort... It was your heart that saved you.'
Back to the dream: "film in his head had been waiting to start" perhaps refers to something that's there waiting to be awoken. He desperately wants love but the conflict with Voldemort is distracting him "if only his scar would stop prickling ... then he would be able to think more clearly".
Does JKR mean a desire for love generally or something that's there in Harry's subconscious? If it's the latter it points to Hermione because at this stage at least Ginny is only an aquaintance/friend, Cho is clearly the wrong option and he doesn't know Luna to any extent.
Then we get one of JKR's favourite interruptions - take a bow 00Hawk - with Ron's entry, and Harry is back to feeling unhappy again.
In the morning Harry sits alone. Interestingly despite the problems Harry has, he comments that he hears Sirius singing carols and he could not remember him "ever being in such a good mood." Harry's godfather is hugely happy despite Harry's problems? Harry hears Molly's voice calling him but doesn't respond.
So we have Harry's godfather, surrogate mother and best friend being no use in getting Harry out of his depression. Hermione's the catalyst and maybe she's the one who cares most to do so.
Harry immediately opens the door when he hears Hermione's voice and there's a nice description of snow in her hair and her face pink with cold. She’s barely had time to get inside, find out where Harry is and organise (with Molly's help) Ron, Ginny and the sandwiches to be in Ron's room.
Harry raises no objections. He "followed her back to the second floor." She gets through his depression by a dose od reality and honesty, with a bit of support from Ron and Ginny. Sometimes that's more effective than the type of tea-and-sympathy approach Molly employed to no avail.
The love room dream carries a similar message to this passage:
"Most people returned to their telescopes. Harry looked to his left. Hermione was gazing transfixed at Hagrid's cabin.
'Ahem - 20 minutes to go,' said Professor Tofty.
Hermione jumped and returned at once to her star-chart; Harry looked down at his own and noticed that he had mislabelled Venus as Mars. He bent to correct it.
There was a loud BANG from the grounds."
Again war (Mars) is interrupting the progress of love (Venus). And he's gazing at Hermione. Is it just coincidence that Hermione is on his left and the door at the end of the stone steps in downstairs on the left. And then of course there's another interruption at the end.
Now when they are in the MOM they come across the locked door. Curiously they come across it just after they get past the 'death' room. Both Harry and Hermione - thinking about the task in hand of rescuing Sirius - are very businesslike here. Harry has no feeling about what's beyond, Hermione realises it's not the door they are after because Harry could open the door in his regular Voldemort-inspired dreams.
The most interesting reaction is from Ron who is described as excited and then: "But what if that's the one?' said Ron, staring at it with a mixture of apprehension and longing."
The other interesting thing is Harry tries individually to open it by force, then with Ron helping, and then with Sirius' knife which melts. Hermione can't open it individually with a spell.
Perhaps we will revisit this place in book 7 and Harry and Hermione will together be able to open the door which, remember, is kept locked "at all times". Does the time turner have a role to play here? Will Harry and Hermione draw Voldemort into that room? But will there be another encounter with the veil first?
Part2:
Look at it this way:
JKR sets up a pattern, a series of dreams involving a corridor and door. The dreams appear to progress, Harry goes down the corridor and eventually to the room with the spheres. Voldemort then sets the bait of Sirius appearing at the spot he wants Harry to go to.
This all seems very logical but Harry is also having other dreams such as the one with Cho and Hermione and also recalling other visions from his past during his lessons with Snape.
We are also given information later about a locked love room by Dumbledore. A room that could be the love room was mentioned on the visit to the DOM.
Now looking at it logically the dream Harry has just before Christmas fits into the pattern. It seems to be the black entrance door.
Now in my initial post I made the mistake of forgetting about the entrance door and thinking that this was the entrance to the love room. I admitted the mistake.
However there are things about this dream that make me suspicious and I wonder if JKR is being tricky.
In this dream "he reached the black door but could not open it" but when Harry actually goes to the DOM with the other five it says "They stepped out into the corridor ... He turned to face the door and walked forwards ... just as it had in his dream, it swung open and he marched over the threshold." Note also that the doors in the circular room beyond are also black.
So in reality, Harry has no problem getting through that door. But in this dream he can't.
With the other dreams about the corridor Harry feels very curious, excited and keen to find out what's past the door.
With the dream in question he feels a real longing in his heart, a stronger emotion. Key sentences are these:
"It was as though a film in his head had been waiting to start....he stood gazing at it, desperate for entry ... something he wanted with all his heart lay beyond ... a prize beyond his dreams"
Feelings of curiosity and excitement fit with the main pattern of leading Harry to the spheres. It's like another adventure, trying to solve a mystery. But "something he wanted with all his heart" and "a prize beyond his dreams"? Do they fit? Are the words "a prize beyond his [Voldemort inspired] dreams" a clue? And doesn't "a film in his head had been waiting to start" suggest something that has long been lying dormant?
We are told by Dumbledore that what is special about Harry is his heart. That's where he has a power to vanquish Voldemort. It's something that he has that Voldemort hasn't.
The reason why I wondered if it was the door to the love room in the first place was because it seemed that the emotion in this dream was Harry's emotion not Voldemort's.
The other things that make me wonder about this dream are the timing of it - just when Harry is at a very low ebb after the snake dream, just before Hermione arrives and just before Christmas - and how it relates in part to the message of the Mars/Venus scene in the exam.
Okay logically it's the entrance door and the dream is part of a sequence of getting Harry into the room with the spheres. I accept that.
But I also feel there's a possibility the dream - in an emotional sense - is a reference to the love room as well. And both the love room and the room with the spheres lie beyond the entrance door.
Hermione and looks by Earendil
I think it can generally be agreed that Hermione has a few issues of insecurity. Being a Muggle-born sent off to a wizarding school that she had no idea even existed until she got the Hogwarts letter must be unnerving, to say the least, and Hermione's character compelled her to excel at magical study in order to make her mark on this unfamiliar territory. Aside from the issue of feeling like an outsider in the magical world, I believe that Hermione may have a few insecurities regarding her appearance as well.
Don't get me wrong--Hermione isn't the type of girl who fusses around with dolling herself up all the time. She herself said in GoF that it was "too much of a bother" to have to apply too much effort into managing her hair. However, being a normal adolescent girl with bushy hair, it is entirely plausible based on subtle canonical evidence that Hermione may be a little more sensitive about her physical shortcomings than she lets on.
What does this have to do with shipping? Enter Harry and Ron. Harry, who can be fairly perceptive to the feelings of others, and is especially empathetic to sensitive subjects that he can relate to. And then Ron, who we know has the tendency to be a tiny bit daft about picking up on other people's feelings and insecurities, even though he's up to his ears in his own insecurities. To sum up my theory regarding Hermione's appearance and how this relates to her future romantic prospects: Hermione feels that, as so much emphasis is placed on a girls' looks, it will be difficult for her to approach and win over a boy whom she has feelings for (for the purpose of this post, Harry). Ron, despite his obvious maturing in OotP, may still have the same superficial attitude toward girls in general that he displayed in GoF--while Harry, who may also be as shallow as Ron, displays some signs of sensitivity and empathy regarding Hermione's appearance.
Concerning Teeth, Dates, and Hair-Care Potions
'Malfoy got Hermione!' said Ron, dragging Hermione's hand away from her mouth. 'Look!'
Snape looked at Hermione coldly and said, 'I see no difference.'
Hermione gave a whimper and ran off down the hall.
We already know that Hermione has rather large front teeth. What we don't know prior to GoF is how she feels about this fact. Having Snape indirectly poke fun of her teeth in front of the entire class couldn't have been fun, and I think we can safely assume that with or without this snide remark, Hermione's teeth are a sensitive subject.
" '....and I just let her....carry on a bit. I've been asking Mum and Dad to let me shrink them for ages, but you know how they are, they're dentists, they just don't think teeth and magic should--"
Hermione wanted to do something about the size of her teeth, thus indicating that she is aware of and dislikes this disproportionate aspect of her appearance. Again, I infer from this that she feels a little self-conscious about her looks.
'Oh I see,' said Hermione, bristling, 'So basically you'll take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?'
'Er, yeah--that sounds about right,' said Ron.
'I'm going to bed,' snapped Hermione.
This looks like smoking-gun evidence of R/Hr, doesn't it? Not exactly. Here we see Ron exhibiting a shallow attitude toward girls, essentially objectifying them based on their appearance alone, and proving to Hermione just how much importance boys of that age tend to place on looks. But Harry was remarkably quiet during this scene, wasn't he? Who's to say that Harry thinks the same thing that Ron does about girls? I would guess that to some extent, Harry does care about looks. Of course he would; he's a normal adolescent boy--yet he doesn't participate in this discussion. If JKR had wanted us to believe that Harry, the hero, has the same character flaw that Ron has--a flaw that I'm sure will be redeemed in the future books--she would have shown him participating a little more in this conversation. I think that what she wanted us to see here is that Hermione is resentful to this attitude that boys generally express regarding a girl's looks, and she feels that because her own looks are nothing to celebrate, it will always be counted against her when she is compared in the eyes of a boy she likes with another, more attractive girl.
"It was Hermione. But it didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny and twisted in an elegant knot at the back of her head...'
We're all familiar with this passage, featuring Dolled-Up Hermione on the arm of Viktor Krum. It's been debated several times why exactly Hermione gave herself the mega-makeover for the Yule Ball, and I still maintain that she was NOT trying to impress Ron or Harry or Viktor or anyone in particular, rather that she was doing this for herself. Continuing with my assumption that she is insecure about her looks, she took this opportunity to prove to herself and even to the other students that she too can be beautiful, and that she can use this advantage that other girls--girls who don't possess the same gifts of intelligence that she has--often use to attract attention and respect from their peers. This was something Hermione needed to do for herself and herself alone, and in the process of doing so, who was it that noticed and exhibited a more favourable reaction, Harry or Ron?
Basically, Hermione displayed normal signs of insecurity regarding physical appearance in GoF. While Ron seems not to have picked up on this yet, I believe that Harry may perceive Hermione’s attitude and is slightly aware of her sensitivity on the subject.
Furry-Faced Hermione: What's This Doing Among Some Of Harry's Worst Memories?
"Hermione let her robes fall. Ron backed into the sink.
'It was c-cat hair!' she sobbed. 'Milicent Bulstrode must have a cat! And the Polyjuice Potion isn't supposed to be used for animal transformations!'
'It's okay, Hermione,' Harry said quickly. 'We'll take you up to the hospital wing, Madam Pomfrey never asks too many questions--'
Imagine Hermione, a girl with bushy hair and large front teeth, having her face covered in cat hair--and then showing this face to her two best (male) friends. One of them can barely conceal his horror, while the other quickly offers a solution without displaying overt disgust. Now we never see any clear-cut smoking gun evidence prior to GoF that Hermione gives two hoots about the way she looks, but looking retrospectively at this passage, it became clear to me that sprouting fur on her face was more humiliating than anything else she had experienced at the time. Again, Harry has the favourable reaction: don't draw attention to how bad it is, focus on giving her assistance rather than gape in horror.
It's still a mystery to me why this memory cropped up in the chapter "Occlumency". I would say that Harry was facing random memories of his past in which he had attempted to bury in his subconscious and never have to revisit again, but why is the Furry Face incident in there at all? I think that when it happened, Harry felt for Hermione and actually pitied her. This may have been when he began to understand how insecure she felt about her appearance, though I'm fairly sure that he hasn't consciously realized any of this yet. He suppressed this memory because he actually felt embarrassed for her, and what this says is that Harry and Hermione have a little more common ground than we think.
Fishing For Compliments?
" 'And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am,' Hermione added as an afterthought.
'But I don't think you're ugly,' said Harry, bemused.
In my opinion, this is not Hermione fishing for a chance to hear Harry tell her she's pretty. This is Hermione honestly believing that Harry thinks she's ugly and is revolted by the idea of having any sort of feelings for her. I almost detected a bitter tone when she added this comment, and when she laughed after his reply. I interpret this as her feeling that she has no chance with Harry, because of his interest in Cho--a much more attractive girl. This would also account for the frequent insistence from the R/Hr side that Hermione has never encouraged Harry in the past--she's been afraid to, because she assumed that his perspective on girls' appearance taking precedence over their character is the same as Ron's. Yet Harry tells her that he doesn't think that she's ugly, and he's surprised that she would express such an idea to him. While in the past he had subconsciously empathized with her appearance issues and even been impressed when she managed to doll herself up, when she actually verbally expresses this insecurity, he's taken aback. This tells me that even without realizing it, Harry picks up on Hermione's sensitive issue and backs her up without even intending to, hence the dredging up of the Polyjuice memory in the Occlumency lesson. He understands her without even realizing it.
Conclusion
Hermione is no bombshell. We know that much. We also know that after GoF, she may be starting to blossom into a lovely young lady. This brings me to my doubts about how deep Ron's feelings for her run at the moment: My personal opinion is that he doesn't admire and respect her for her good qualities, but that he feels possessive and obligated to "claim" her because of his general attitude toward women. (I've written about this before, so I won't go into much more detail.) If Hermione were to continue to become more and more attractive, I have a feeling that Ron will finally realize whatever feelings he has for her and make his move. Harry, on the other hand, does not have apparent feelings for Hermione at this point, but is able to relate to her insecurity and realize that looks are and should be insignificant to a relationship. When she dolled herself up for the Yule Ball, he didn't treat her any differently other than to gawk for a moment when he first noticed her. There are no issues of superficiality between Harry and Hermione, because Harry has already been able to relate to and sympathize with her from the cat hair incident, even if he has not yet consciously realized how insecure Hermione is about her appearance. He was intuitive enough to understand how she was feeling, and this tells me that in terms of perception, Harry and Hermione are more on the same wavelength than anyone else.
When did Hermione start liking Harry by Turambar
I've got a few thoughts here on Hermione's feelings and actions towards Harry in OOTP
In my opinion Hermione is aware of how she feels throughout OOTP but is playing her cards close to her chest because she doesn't want to give her feelings away until she's sure Harry feels the same way.
Going by the text Hermione would have seen Cho making a point of waving at Harry at the QWC (Ron at least smirked when Harry slopped water on himself in response). She then saw Harry looking at Cho early on in the school year in GOF and made the comment to the effect `when you've both put your eyes back in'. But Krum was a distraction and I think GOF shows her working out her ideas on different things.
I think she has known for sure she likes him since the end of GOF. The kiss at the end of GOF, the hug in OOTP and her reaction to Ron being made prefect flow on from each other: they show she's thought about her relationship with Harry, she's thought about how H/Hr being made prefects would allow her to spend more time with Harry alone and out of the trio. And for people who think Ron being made prefect was a convenient way for R/Hr to spend time together, well so was Harry getting banned from the Quidditch team, wasn't it?
Incidentally her reaction to Harry not being expelled very interesting: everyone else was just jumping around, 'cool you got off!' but Hermione was like faint with relief 'Thank God you're going to be at school this year after all'. The problem she has after their initial meeting is regaining their usual closeness because Harry's mood puts her at arms length. She then has to content with a) Cho and b) the various distracting problems Harry faces which stops him thinking about relationships.
I think the fact that she is aware of her feelings for Harry and has had plenty of time to think about them before they meet up shows in her dealings with Cho: she did her homework on her, observed her, I'd say discussed her with Ginny because Hermione knew about Cho's problems with the Quidditch team and Ginny was going out with a Ravenclaw boy. She keeps bringing up the subject of Cho to check out what state the Harry/Cho relationship is at. In one of the DA classes, Harry and Cho are having a joke and Hermione calls over to Harry that it's time to wrap up: interrupting them.
Her elf hats invitation and the ugly comment IMO is Hermione testing Harry. I also thought she may have been testing him when she asked him to meet her on Valentines Day a) without giving him a reason and b) saying "bring her if you must". Harry's big date and he agrees to meet her without question. I feel she would have had some idea of how Cho would react to that. She says she doesn't have time to explain but it wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds to say something like 'I've got a plan to get your side of the story about Voldemort out to the public'.
We were discussing symbolism earlier: how symbolic is that that Harry meets Cho and THEN Hermione on Valentines Day? Exactly like the dream, Cho then Hermione. And right at the end it's Hermione who tells Harry Cho is going out with someone else.
The way Hermione reacts to Quidditch without Harry is telling since H/Hr shippers have always said that the interest she showed in Harry's achievements was a sign of her interest in him. She even says, "Well at least my happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability." Compare that to the thrill she's always got watching Harry play or the way she reacted when he fell from his broom in POA.
When Dobby warns Harry that Umbridge is after them, Harry tells everyone to run and as people are struggling towards the door, Hermione calls out to him "Harry come on". Another case of Hermione looking out for Harry in a crisis situation, and while Ron is there as well.
You could argue that perhaps Harry was lagging and Ron ahead, but she's showing her concern and that she's thinking about where he is, what he's doing and is worried about whether he'll get out in time.
In GOF we saw Krum become jealous of Hermione's closeness to Harry and in OOTP we saw Cho become jealous of Harry's closeness to Hermione. So we've seen how potential partners of both can feel threatened by and speculate about Harry and Hermione's relationship.
But also in OOTP we see signs of Hermione's protectiveness about her closeness to Harry, her place as his best female friend.
The most obvious example is her behaviour over Cho.It's interesting that when she asks Harry to meet her in Hogsmeade, Hermione says, "Well bring her along if you must." There's a distancing there, a subtext of 'she's not one of us.'
There's also a certain amount of pride in being Harry's friend apparent in this quote: "Then they spotted me, and obviously they know I know you, so they bombarded me with questions,' Hermione told Harry, her eyes shining, 'and Harry, I think they believe you, I really do, I think you've finally got them convinced."
BTW just on that a) he notices her eyes are shining and b) how unselfish she is in praising Harry when the idea for getting the story published was hers.
Bear in mind that Hermione in GOF never denies that she and Harry are a couple after the Rita article alleges it.
Hermione is clearly good friends with Ginny now but again it's interesting that she is the one to tell Harry that Ginny has given up on him. When the group of six is discussing how to get to the MOM Hermione makes it totally clear that she's not going to wait while Harry and Ron go ahead: "I'm not staying behind," Hermione said furiously."
And she says they only need one more thestral, for herself when clearly they need more: "Well we need three," said Hermione, who was still looking a little shaken but determined just the same."
To which Ginny, who clearly doesn't like the idea of being cut out, responds: "Four, Hermione' said Ginny scowling."
It's left to Luna to point out that actually they need six. Obviously Ginny doesn't want to be left out of the adventure but I think there's a bit of tension at that moment between the two.
There's also the comment Hermione makes about Luna's support for Harry over Voldemort "you can do better than her."
These are just little things but it seems to me that Hermione is keeping an eye on potential rivals.
(Earendil) I also noticed sub textual tension in this passage. I'm not trying to claim that Hermione and Ginny are rivals or that they don't have a decent friendship, but there is an interesting display of a slight clashing of temperaments in this exchange.
A look at Literary patterns: Charms by Perdita
Part A: Individual Book Links
The entire HP series is about magic, so no wonder that there is the constant mention of charms and spells. However, since I am looking at literary patters, I look for instances when a charm or any spell in general is mentioned more than once in a book. Then I look at the context of those two or more instances. Are there similarities from one scene to another? Are there patterns involving the characters who use the spells?
For the discussion on Harry and Hermione, I have found such patterns. If you find anything else that should be added to this list, please feel free to do so!
PS/SS: The Bluebell Flames Charm
The first time the bluebell flames charm was mentioned, it was at the Quidditch game where Hermione set Snape’s robes on fire.
The second time it was mentioned, the trio were in the courtyard discussing the philosopher’s stone. She kept the flames burning in a jar so that she could use it to help keep them warm while there were outside.
The third instance was when they were fighting the Devil’s Snare and Hermione conjures up the bluebell flames to save them.
Count that as two times that Hermione has saved Harry’s life using the bluebell flames.
GOF:The Summoning Charm
Hermione was the one who helped Harry train to master this spell at the beginning, and it helped him in the first task. At the end, he used the summoning charm to access the Triwizard Cup to portkey himself back to Hogwarts grounds.
I think that these connections between Harry and Hermione strengthens their bond symbolically, and not just for practical reasons of the plot.
Next, I will talk about how these charms and spells have been connected from one book to another. The patterns of intertexuality, to me, makes very strong case for the symbolic bond between them.
(EricaM) A comment about the 'Bluebell Flame Charm':
Bluebells (the flower) represent: Loyalty; Humility; Constancy;
Sorrowful; Regret and also Everlasting Love.
Any of those fit Hermione?
(Perdita) Hermione does possess some of those qualities: loyalty and constancy. I hope she won't experience too much sorrow or regret. Everlasting love sounds nice.
Harry and Hermione Linked by Charms
This is to accompany my earlier post on the pattern of recurring charms/spells that involve Harry and Hermione. In those two examples, we saw how the charms/spells ended up saving Harry’s life. I am now going to look at the patterns that exist throughout the series. I think this makes even more compelling evidence that Rowling intends to pair up Harry and Hermione in the future. Why do I feel that way? The reason is because I see the patterns that Rowling has set up from book 1 through to book 5. The use of patterns in storytelling are not likely to be coincidental, rather they usually are deliberately employed by the author to suggest an idea or theme. It is what unifies a series of novels such as the HP series. It is unlikely that these patterns appear again and again by coincidence.
*EDITED* Here is a quick breakdown of the patterns (book number, charm/spell):
33. 1/5 Alohomora charm and wands
34. 1/5 Accio charm
35. 3/5 impervious and coin charm with Oliver and Anthony
36. 4/5 banishing charm with cushions, and dancing charm with teacup (will be explained in detail soon)
Alohomora Charm
What is peculiar is that in PS/SS, we saw Hermione utter that charm using Harry’s wand. This is considerably an easy charm, and Hermione tells Ron and Harry on the train ride that she has been practicing spells over the summer and has had success with them. However, we were also told by Mr. Ollivander that the wand chooses the wizard. When the wand does not agree with the wizard, the spells that come out of it will not be very successful. In PS/SS, we see a clever, but not-at-all an expert witch, use another wizard's wand to cast a charm and it is met with complete success. The locking spell on the door to Fluffy's lair was supposed to be cast by Professor Flitwick. You would think that with such an important business, that the spell should not be so easily opened by a 1st year witch who is using another wizard's wand, nonetheless. In spite of so many supposed obstacles, Hermione managed to use Harry’s wand and cast the Alohomora spell without difficulty.
In OOTP, we see another door that is locked. This time, Hermione tries to open the door with the charm and it doesn’t work. Harry tries using Sirius's knife, which did nothing but melt. Ron tried to use physical force, which also failed to open the door. Dumbledore later tells us that what lies behind that door is something that Harry possesses in abundance, and Voldemort possesses none of it. Some reader’s guess that what lies behind this door has something to do with love. There is also the theory that Harry alone cannot open the door. He will need to open it with someone he loves, and who loves him back. Turambar suggested that it will be Hermione.
What we see here is the door motif replayed in front of the reader, only this time it is juxtaposed instead of a parallel.
In my last essay, I talked about the Alohomora charm. I noticed another error I’ve made in that list. It should read as thus:
A quick breakdown of the patterns (book number, charm/spell):
37. 1/5 Alohomora charm and wands
38. 3/5 Impervius charm and perception
39. 3/5 Impervius and Protean charm with Oliver and Terry
40. 4/5 Accio charm
41. 4/5 banishing charm with cushions, and dancing charm with teacup (will be explained in detail soon)
To keep to the order of that list, I’m going to talk about the Impervious charm in this essay, not Accio charm. I had once developed a theory involving the problem with Harry’s perception of Hermione.* I drew on the events from the books as well as the movies, as this is something that Steve Kloves highlighted 2 times already. In POA, Rowling introduces the image of Hermione helping Harry to clear his vision using the Imperius charm. In OOTP, Hermione comes up with the idea of using the Protean Charm on the Galleons to alert D.A. members to changes in meeting schedules. The reactions of Oliver Wood and Terry Boot are very interesting. Harry’s reaction is equally interesting. (Bold emphasis in the quotes are mine).
POA, ch 9 Grim Defeat
He (Harry) handed them to her and, as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said, ˜Impervius!"
˜There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. ˜They'll repel water!"
Wood looked as if he could have kissed her.
˜Brilliant!" he called hoarsely after her, as she disappeared into the crowd. ˜OK, team, let's go for it!"
Hermione’s spell had done the trick. Harry was still numb with cold, still wetter than he'd ever been in his life, but he could see.
Compare this scene with:
OOTP, ch 19 The Lion and the Serpent
"You can do a Protean Charm?" said Terry Boot.
˜Yes," said Hermione.
˜But that's NEWT standard, that is," he said weakly.
˜Oh," said Hermione, trying to look modest. ˜Oh well yes, I suppose it is."
˜How come you're not in Ravenclaw?" he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. ˜With brains like yours?"
˜Well, yes," said Hermione quietly, ˜that is where I got the idea but you'll notice I decided to engrave the date on bits of metal rather than on our member’s skin."
˜Yeah, I prefer your way," said Harry, grinning, as he slipped his Galleon into his pocket. ˜I suppose the only danger with these is that we might accidentally spend them."
To Note:
42. Boot and Wood both recognize Hermione’s genius and respond to her dramatically.
43. Harry’s reaction in POA was non-existent. The most he got out of it was that he could see better. He did recognize Wood's reaction, but that didn't seem to make any impact on him.
44. Harry’s reaction in OOTP was much improved. He tells her she made a good move, but he does so in a humorous way, not sappy or dramatic. Harry and Hermione actually shared a humorous and tender moment here.
45. Ron interrupts with a comment about how he doesn’t have money to spend.
From POA to OOTP, does it not seem like Harry is making progress? Whether the change is motivated by subconscious romantic feelings or not, Rowling has used these two events to show growth in Harry’s character. The growth is conducive to a harmonious and pleasant moment between Harry and Hermione in OOTP, one of the few. What happens next? Ron interrupts. Sound familiar?
Now, on to my second point about the Impervius curse. It was mentioned once in POA, but it was brought up again in OOTP (ch 18 Dumbledore’s Army). Why is that? It could be there to serve as nothing more than a spell that fits the plot at that juncture. Still, it makes me wonder, why does Rowling bring up this charm again? What does a rainy day at Quidditch practice do to enrich the plot? It doesn’t have any bearing on the Voldemort and dream problems that Harry was having. Why did Rowling have to portray another rainy session with Quidditch and bring up the Impervius charm again?
Does it have something to do with the over all story and Harry’s inability to see?
*MEM has made additions to my theory. The posts can be found in the H/Hr File located in BabyMars's sig.
A Look at Literary Patters: Charms
A quick breakdown of the patterns (book number, charm/spell):
46. 1/5 Alohomora charm and wands
47. 3/5 Impervius charm and perception
48. 3/5 Impervius and Protean charm with Oliver and Terry
49. 4/5 Summoning charm
50. 4/5 banishing charm with cushions, and dancing charm with teacup (will be explained in detail soon)
In this post, I will discuss the pattern that Rowling creates using the Summoning charm. I already explained the significance of the summoning charm within GOF, how Hermione was the one who trained him single-handedly to master that spell. Not only did it get him past the dragon in the first task, it also saved his life at the end of the third task when he summoned the Portkey.
In OOTP, Rowling depicts a scene where it is Hermione who uses this charm, and what was she trying to obtain? None other than Harry’s wand, that’s what! (ch 35 Beyond the Veil)
To note:
51. In GOF, when Hermione trained Harry to use the summoning charm, Hermione was the only one who stood by him when even his best friend, Ron, deserted him.
52. In the DoM, Harry manages to lose his wand and is helpless when he gets targeted by a DE. It is Hermione who rescues Harry using the Stunning hex. Immediately after that, she retrieves his wand for him. Again, we see Hermione holding Harry’s wand, an image that is reminiscent of Alohomora in PS/SS.
53. Harry says thank you, and then he is interrupted by Neville. Another interruption, 00Hawk? I’m not sure on this one.
54. Now, if Rowling were going for an H/G ship, why did Rowling not use this opportunity to strengthen the Harry/Ginny bond that was introduced in COS? Harry saved Ginny last time, so wouldn’t it be nice if Ginny returned the favour this time? This would put them on equal footing and raise them as a pair one notch: they've both saved each other’s lives. Pretty romantic, if you ask me. But, why did Rowling not take advantage of this opportunity to play up H/G?
A Look at Literary Patters: Charms IV
A quick breakdown of the patterns (book number, charm/spell):
55. 1/5 Alohomora charm and wands
56. 3/5 Impervius charm and perception
57. 3/5 Impervius and Protean charm with Oliver and Terry
58. 4/5 Summoning charm
59. 4/5 banishing charm with cushions, and dancing charm with teacup
In this essay, I will be talking about harmonious imagery. Remember, imagery is merely a mental picture. Its purpose in literature is to add another level of storytelling that is of a subtle nature, not overt. I will highlight two instances of Harry and Hermione being the direct conductors of harmonious imagery. These examples are taken from OOTP and GOF. The fact that it has carried on from one book to another indicates that it is a pattern. All bold emphasis within the quotes are mine.
GOF, ch 26 The Second Task
She (Hermione) Banished a cushion and it flew across the room and landed in the box they were all supposed to be aiming at. Harry looked at Hermione thinking "it was true that Snape saved his life once .
˜You just want to think Snape's up to something," said Hermione, sending her cushion zooming neatly into the box.
˜I just want to know what Snape did with his first chance, if he’s on his second one," said Harry grimly, and his cushion, to his very great surprise, flew straight across the room, and landed neatly on top of Hermione’s.
OOTP, ch 30 Grawp
"You?" she said, catching her teacup as it scampered happily away across the desk on four sturdy little willow-patterned legs, and replacing it in front of her.
Hermione, allowed her teacup to jog in neat little circles around Harry’s (teacup), whose stubby little legs were still unable to touch the desktop, (Hermione) I’ve been wondering whether Mundungus has persuaded them to sell stolen goods or something awful."
˜He hasn't," said Harry curtly.
There was a shocked silence, then Hermione’s teacup jogged right over the edge of the desk and smashed on the floor.
To note:
It says that Hermione allowed her teacup to dance in circles. After hearing Harry explain how Fred and George got the money to finance their business, Hermione is so shocked that she loses concentration and she allowed her teacup to jog across the table and fall off it. This clearly indicates that Hermione’s teacup jogging around Harry’s teacup was a deliberate move on her part.
To compare:
60. Both instances happen in charms class.
61. Both instances convey an image of harmony or complimentary behaviour.
62. Both contain an interruption that does not allow Harry time to think about what he’s seen. At the most, he can only register a reaction.
Questions:
63. Why does Rowling create harmonious images of Harry and Hermione’s interaction together?
64. Why does she have Ron present in both instances, but have the harmonious charms linked only between Harry and Hermione?
65. If Rowling wanted to portray Hermione having romantic feelings for Ron, why did she have Hermione charm her teacup to dance around Harry’s?
Please feel free to add, answer or counter any of these queries.
(Sirius83) On the teacups, I actually like to call it the flirting teacups scene. I would like to put the question to the R/Hr shippers as well. Just as in the pillow scene, JKR wanted to point out that Harry's pillow landed neatly on top of Hermione's - why? On the same note, Hermione decided to play around a bit with her jogging teacup. Why didn't JKR write it so she had her teacup doing its little flirt thing with Ron's cup instead of Harry's?
Favourite scenes by Turambar
A lot of my favourite scenes in the book are of Hermione sifted through Harry's perception.
A lot of these are very small and seemingly insignificant but it's almost frustrating the way JKR seems to save lovely moments and writing for this pair if she is not to put them together.
The book is generally dark and Harry and Hermione's friendship goes through difficult patches. Mike mentioned in one of the previous threads how in GOF JKR forced Harry to rely on Hermione before the first task, removing his other supports. In OOTP Hermione is Harry's chief guide, advisor, sounding board while Dumbledore stays in the background, Ron's role is weakened, Voldemort is a largely off-stage presence and the demons are lurking in Harry's head.
What JKR does with H/Hr is the opposite of what she's trying to achieve with the Harry/Cho relationship.
Harry/Cho is all about the fantasy not measuring to reality, so in that sense Cho had to be written in a disappointing way. Instead of the pretty, sporty, attractive girl Harry was dreaming about he's suddenly dealing with someone who's emotionally needy and shallower than he expected. And he has imagined her in terms of his needs - her making him feel good - and suddenly faces the reality of the fantasy figure being emotionally clingy and is repelled and scared by it.
JKR invites comparison of the Harry/Cho Harry/Hermione relationships by a) having Hermione involved in pushing Harry into getting to know Cho rather than admiring her from afar and b) making Cho jealous of Hermione in a mirror of Krum's jealousy over Harry in GOF.
With Harry/Hermione there is a lot of togetherness in the climax of the book after a number of difficult, very intense periods. It's a mark of how much Ron fades into the scenery here that these intense periods feel very much like their interaction alone together in the time turner and before the first task sequences in POA and GOF. This time there's even a wider circle of people around than normal yet there are scenes that crackle with electricity where they are very focused on each other.
What comes through is how well they know each other, especially how well Hermione knows Harry: the good, the bad and the ugly and the total reality.
One of my very favourite scenes is this:
"Harry saw that she looked much the worse for wear; her hair was full of twigs and leaves, her robes were ripped in several places and there were numerous scratches on her face and arms. He knew he must look little better."
It's the mirror opposite of this scene in GOF:
"It was Hermione. But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material."
Someone mentioned before about how in the book Harry reminisces about their past: knocking out the troll when they first became friends, the cat hair scene, their different adventures. Or what about this one:
"Harry looked at Hermione, who peered back at him from between the fingers over her face.
'Kind of makes you wish we had Norbert back, doesn't it?' he said and she gave a very shaky laugh.
Giving Norbert to Charlie's friends was their first combined adventure in PS.
They've seen each other in more difficult situations than anyone else has. That includes Ron. That trend continues in this book with Harry and Hermione going twice together into the forest. Ron doesn't see Hermione at her most vulnerable, clinging to Harry behind a tree, "shaking and whimpering" when Grawp tries to grab her.
It reminds me of the dedication JKR put in COS to her old friend, thanking him for being a "foulweather friend". They see all sides of each other and emerge stronger.
Basically JKR puts H/Hr through the wringer in this book before the final battle becomes a set-piece of their team-work, Harry recognises that Hermione was right during the year and he should have listened to her and she has the final farewell for him at the end of the book.
Some other scenes I liked showed Harry's knowledge of her or just their special rapport:
"She looked around at Harry, her face glowing, and he saw that the presence of hundreds of books had finally convinced Hermione that what they were doing was right."
"Hagrid,' said Hermione breathlessly, 'if the centaurs don't want humans in the Forrest, it doesn't really look as though Harry and I will be able -'
'Ah you heard what they said.' said Hagrid dismissively, 'they wouldn't hurt foals - I mean kids.'
'Nice try,' Harry murmured to Hermione, who looked crestfallen."
"Harry looked sideways at Hermione.
'You know what these remind me of?'
'No, what's that?'
'The Death Eaters' scars. Voldemort touches one of them, and all their scars burn, and they know they've got to join him.'
'Well ... yes,' said Hermione quietly, 'that is where I got the idea ... but you'll notice I decided to engrave the date on bits of metal rather than on our members' skin.'
'Yeah ... I prefer your way,' said Harry, grinning."
Harry and Hermione's tension by Sone
"Is it possible, that the mature and relaxed arguments/conclusions etc between Harry and Hermione are the result of a well balanced and comfortable relationship?"
Not only is it possible, that is exactly what it is. However, there are some differences from a strictly platonic relationship.
1) The arguments are not relaxed; they just do not attack each other personally. Hermione knows Harry. It seems she knows him better than anybody. Even Ron looks to her when Harry's temper is flaring because he does not know what to say. He knows Hermione does however. Since she does know him, she does not have to get personal to get through to him because she knows attacking him personally will not help. It will just make things worse. Ron and Hermione have no such line that they do not cross. They attack often without warning. The interest it seems is in mainly being right or just a matter of pride.
2) Platonic would mean free from physical desire. Hermione and Harry are not free from physical desire in any way. Quite the opposite in fact. OOTP almost desperately shows this. Hermione almost always grabbing Harry's arm or holds on to him when she is scared. This even in Ron's presence. It is almost like a reflex rather than a conscious decision. I say this because often she holds Harry's arm so hard, he starts losing feeling. She does seem to know until Harry peers at her like he did in POA but in OOTP, not once did he mind when she grabbed on to him.
Harry on the other hand, is also grabbing Hermione far more than ever he did and he did not certainly did not mind Hermione jumping into his arms, even if she nearly knocked him over. Like I stated, he does not seem to mind Hermione grabbing on to him. You would think there would be a tense moments....well that I will also explain.
Physically, Hermione and Harry are not unattractive to each other. But like I said before, their tension is from love. Harry does not know why yet. He does not know why he cannot meet her face when they're alone after he found out that he was not made prefect. He does not know why she is appearing in his dreams, why her voice is popping up in his head or even why Hermione always seems to know how to calm him down. Harry does know that Hermione looks up to him more than probably anyone in the school. For some reason, disappointing her or not being there for her is not something he can face. So much so he is ready to fight a giant without his wand, takes Neville's word that Hermione is still alive after a DE hits her with an unknown spell or dedicates himself to his school work just so she would be proud of him.
As for Hermione, she loves Harry and already knows why, but she is afraid. Afraid because she does not know how Harry feels about her. There is also a certain fear that she believes that she is not Harry's type. But she still loves him. You can tell from the hug, her excitement at idea Harry being a prefect with her, the fact that she tells Harry things she would never ask or mention to Ron and the fact she is always visibly upset when Harry is miserable. What keeps Hermione afraid is Cho Chang who is everything Hermione is not considered in school except for smart. Not to mention Harry has liked her for ages. Also I think it is little things like when Hermione asks Harry to sew elf clothes with her. Hermione does not have alot support for S.P.E.W. and does not ask anyone but Harry to help her. I think Harry is the only one she feels encouraged enough to ask. Harry who could only try to make this offer vaguely interesting before turned her down. She may have only looked slightly disappointed but she really did not ask him again about helping her. I think it hurt her more than she let on.
(Sirius83) Yes, I do think Harry turning Hermione down really hurt her. Lets face facts. It wasn't about the elf hats - she wanted to spend some time with him alone. She said she was "absolutely exhausted" and said that since Harry was leaving the party; it wouldn’t be rude for her to do so as well. Right after this, she asks him to help her make elf hats - she never intended on going to bed! What she really wanted to do was spend some time alone with Harry. Also look at her expression...her face was "shining with glee" as she asked Harry to help her...I mean spend some time with her.
Respect between the trio by Flying Phoenix
It’s started all in PS/SS and went through this books like a red blinking line. Its rather interest how Hermione act in PS/SS.
Because somehow it did never change. I think we all know this famous "great wizard" speech by her to Harry here we see that Harry respect Hermione in the sameway because he react more like she is a better witch as he a wizard. I never saw such a moment with respect between R/Hr. I don’t say there isn’t respect but its much less that strong like between H/Hr.
In PS/SS we got the first taste how this trio might later argue. As Harry and Ron go for the midnight duel and meet Hermione in the common room its clear that she think Harry do the wrong thing. R/Hr are rather loud arguing without anyone who win and by H/Hr is it more an argument who dos the right thing though Harry knew its wrong. But still win over Hermione.
As it went to the PS/SS at the end its again interest that Ron react in way which show less respect for her. He ask if she is mad because she searched after wood but Harry was more impressed that she did listen to Prof. Sproud. (Note: Interruption)
In COS its goes on its at the start as Harry get into the Knockturn alley he is very much pleased that Malfoy can't beat Hermione in classes. Comparing to Ron’s reaction to Hermione’s knowledge is it exactly the opposite. Harry is impressed or proud that she knows that much, Ron is annoyed in the first two books and this doesn’t change in the three books later. Here we see a scene with the polyjuice potion first Ron do always interrupt Hermione in the sentence and don’t let her speak out what he did already in PS/SS but Harry let her speak out. Now this scene as Hermione transforming was rather failing its again how Ron and Harry react. Ron is rather amused but Harry is serious and don’t laugh about her. Its even interest that Ron is the one who want use Hermione’s knowledge for his own homework something what we don’t see by Harry.
In PoA its the big fights between H/Hr and R/Hr but again we see the different how its work. Ron do yell at Hermione and remind by every instance how cruel and not caring she is that’s by H/Hr different Harry don’t yell at her its rather quiet his reaction to that its Ron who act for him. Harry doesn’t rub as by every chance Hermione under the nose.
And how different they end this fight is even interest. Harry comes right after he got his broom back to Hermione and seems be worry that she do too much. By Ron is it till there isn’t any other way. He wait that long till the trio have to stay close for Hagrid. If not for Hagrid maybe they had never end this fight.
In GoF the whole unexpected task and the Yule ball show how less R/Hr respect each other. Ron doesn’t respect Hermione decision to go with someone else than him. He thinks she is lying and has no date. At the Ball he show much more that he don’t respect it. He says she would betray Harry and calls Viktor always Vicky. And between the lines its look as if he doubt that anyone would go out with her if not only to spy on Harry. He doesn’t respect Hermione privacy about her relationship with Viktor. By Harry is it more like it’s her decision to do so and he has no problem with it because he trusts her.
In OotP is it much more clear that there isn’t that much respect between R/Hr as by H/Hr. There is no part in this book that Hermione get that angry with one off them as with Ron as he say the only time in this book his opinion. She tells him to shut up and that if they can’t trust Dumbledore so they could nobody trust. I tell you why she is that angry with Ron at this point because he suggest to Harry he should stop his extra lessons with Snape. We all know that Hermione respect teachers and thinks high about them if they not teach divination and don't call Umbridge. So is it very high thinking of her that she want that Harry teach DaDa. That’s rather a big deal. Because that say she think very high about Harry and he might know it. That’s might be the reason why he want fit this picture but still don’t work for it. There is the reason why Harry couldn't look into her eyes because of he didn’t get the prefect badge or as he got a D.
Psychology of love by BabyMars’s
The first time that I read the series, I was not a shipper of any kind and I never got this impression. It's clear as day that Ron may feel something for Hermione; some hidden "crush" of some sort, but love?? First, off, I think we need to look at what the definition of what loving somebody is. I took these as actual quotes from a psychology textbook I'm currently studying. I believe the information is well researched and accurate. I will cite a bibliography at the end of my post in case anyone is interested in checking this textbook out.
Psychological textbook "Human Sexuality: A Diversity in Contemporary America"
Attitudes and Behaviours Associated with Love
Psychologist Zick Rubin suggested that four feelings identify love:
1) Caring for the other: wanting to help him or her.
2) Needing the other: having a strong desire to be in his or her presence and to have him or her care for you.
3) Trusting the other: mutually exchanging confidences
4) Tolerating the other: including his or her faults.
Love is also expressed in certain behaviours. One study found that romantic love is expressed in seven ways (Swensen, 1972):
1) Verbally expressing effection: such as saying "I love you"
2) Self-disclosure: such as revealing intimate facts about oneself
3) Giving nonmaterial evidence: such as offering emotional and moral support in times of need and respecting the other person's opinion
4) Expressing nonverbal feelings: such as feeling happier, more content, and more secure when the other person is present
5) Offering material evidence: such as giving gifts, flowers, or small favours, or doing more than your share of something
6) Physically expressing love: such as hugging, kissing, and making love.
7) Tolerating the other: such as accepting his or her idiosyncrasies, habits, routines, and quirks.
Research supports the belief that people "walk on air" when they are in love. Researchers have found that those in love view the world more positively then those who are not in love.
Styles of Love
Sociologist John Lee describes six basic styles of love. These styles of love, he cautions, describe relationship styles, NOT individual styles. The style of love may change as the relationship changes or when individuals enter different relationships.
Eros: Eros was an ancient greek god of love, the son of Aphrodite. (The roman’s called him cupid!) As a style of love, Eros is the love of beauty. Erotic lovers delight in the tactile, the sensual, the immediate; they are attracted to beauty (though beauty is in the eye of the beholder). They love the lines of the body, its feel and touch. They are fascinated by every detail of their beloved. Their love burns brightly but soon flickers and dies.
Mania: From the Greek work for madness, is obsessive and possessive love. For manic lovers, nights are marked by sleeplessness and days by pain and anxiety. The slightest sign of affection brings ecstasy for a short while, only to disappear. Satisfactions last for but a moment before they must be renewed. Manic love is roller-coaster love.
Ludus: From the Latin work for play, Ludus is playful love. For ludic lovers, love is a game, something to play at rather than to become deeply involved in. Love is ultimately "ludicrous." Love is for fun; encounters are casual, carefree, and often careless. "Nothing serious" is the motto of ludic lovers.
Storge: From the Greek word for natural affection, is the love between companions. It is, wrote Lee, "Love without fever, tumult, or folly, a peaceful and enchanting affection." It usually begins as friendship and then gradually deepens into love. If the love ends, that also occurs gradually, and the people often become friends once again. Of such love, Theophile Gautier wrote, "To love is to admire with the heart; to admire is to love with the mind."
Agape: From the Greek work for brotherly love, is the traditional Christian love that is chaste, patient, undemanding, and altruistic; there is no expectation of reciprocation. It is the love of saints and martyrs. Agape is more abstract and ideal than concrete and real. It is easier to love all of humankind then an individual in this way.
Pragma: From the Greek word for business, Pragma is practical love. Pragmatic lovers are, first and foremost, businesslike in their approach to looking for someone who meets their needs. They use logic in their search for a partner, seeking background, education, personality, religion, and interests that are compatible with their own. If they meet a person who satisfies their criteria, erotic, manic, or other feelings may develop. But, as Samuel Butler warned, "Logic is like the sword--those who appeal to it shall perish by it."
John Lee believes that to have a mutually satisfying relationship, people have to find a partner who shares the same style and definition of love. The more different two people are in their styles of love, the less likely it is they will understand each other's love.
The Triangular Theory of Love
The triangular theory of love, developed by Robert Sternberg (1986), emphasizes the dynamic quality of love relationships. According to this theory, love is composed of three elements, and in points of a triangle: Intimacy, Passion, and Decision/Commitment.
Each can be enlarged or diminished during the course of a relationship, which will affect the quality of a relationship. They can be combined in different ways. Each combination produces a different type of love, such as romantic love, infatuation, empty love, and liking (all of which I will touch upon.) Partners may combine the components differently at different times in the same love relationship.
The Components of Love
Intimacy- refers to the warm, close, bonding feelings we get when we love someone. According to Strenberg, there are ten signs of intimacy:
1) Wanting to promote your partner's welfare
2) Feeling happiness with your partner
3) Holding your partner in high reguard
4) Being able to count on your partner in times of need
5) Being able to understand your partner
6) Sharing yourself and your possessions with your partner
7) Receiving emotional support from your partner
8) Giving emotional support to your partner
9) Being able to communicate with your partner about intimate things
10) Valuing your partner's presence in your life
Passion- this component refers to the elements of romance, attraction, and sexuality in the relationship. These may be fuelled by a desire to increase self-esteem, to be sexually active or fulfilled, to affiliate with others, to dominate, or to subordinate.
Decision/Commitment- this component consists of two separate parts, a short-term part and a long-term part. The short-term part refers to an individual's decision that he or she loves someone. People may or may not make the decision consciously. But it usually occurs before they decide to make a commitment to the other person. The commitment represents the long-term part; it is the maintenance of love. But a decision to love someone does not necessarily entail a commitment to maintaining that love.
Kinds of Love
The intimacy, passion, and decision/commitment components can be combined in eight basic ways, according to Sternberg:
1) Liking (intimacy only)
2) Infatuation (passion only)
3) Romantic love (intimacy and passion)
4) Companionate love (intimacy and commitment)
5) Fatuous love (passion and commitment)
6) Consummate love (intimacy, passion, and commitment)
7) Empty love (decision/commitment only)
8) Nonlove (absence of intimacy, passion, and commitment)
These types represent extremes that few of us are likely to experience. Not many of us, for example, experience infatuation in its purest form, in which there is absolutely no intimacy. And empty love, in fact, is not really love at all. These categories are nevertheless useful for examining the nature of love.
Liking: Intimacy Only-Liking represents the intimacy component alone. It forms the basis for close friendships but is neither passionate nor committed. As such, liking is often an enduring kind of love. Boyfriends and girlfriends may come and go, but good friends remain.
Infatuation: Passion Only- Infatuation is "love at first sight." It is the kind of love that idealizes its object; the infatuated individual rarely sees the other as a "real" person with normal human foibles. Infatuation is marked by sudden passion and a high degree of physical and emotional arousal. It tends to be obsessive and all-consuming; one has no time, energy, or desire for anything or anyone but the beloved (or thoughts of him or her.) To the dismay of the infatuated individual, infatuations are usually asymmetrical: One's passion (or obsession) is rarely returned equally. And the greater the asymmetry, the greater the distress in the relationship.
Romantic Love: Intimacy and Passion- Romantic love combines intimacy and passion. It is similar to liking except that it is more intense as a result of physical or emotional attraction. It may begin with an immediate union of the two components, with friendship that intensifies into passion, or with passion that also develops intimacy. Although commitment is not as essential element of romantic love, it may develop.
Companionate Love: Intimacy and Commitment- Companionate love is essential to a committed friendship. It often begins as romantic love, but as the passion diminishes and the intimacy increases, it is transformed into companionate love. Some couples are satisfied with such love; others are not. Those who are dissatisfied in companionate love relationships may seek extra relational affairs to maintain passion in their lives. They may also end the relationship to seek a new romantic relationship that they hope will remain romantic.
Fatuous Love: Passion and Commitment- Fatuous or deceptive love is whirlwind love; it begins the day two people meet and quickly results in cohabitation or engagement, and then marriage. It develops so quickly that they hardly know what happened. Often, nothing much really did happen that will permit the relationship to endure. As Sternberg observes, "It us fatuous in the sense that a commitment is made on the basis of passion without the stabilizing element of intimate involvement--which takes time to develop." Passion fades soon enough, and all that remains is commitment. But commitment that has had relatively little time to deepen is a poor foundation on which to build an enduring relationship. With neither passion nor intimacy, the commitment wanes.
Consummate love: Intimacy, Passion and Commitment- Consummate love results when intimacy, passion and commitment combine to form their unique constellation. It is the kind of love we dream about but do not expect in all our love relationships. Many of us can achieve it, but it is difficult to sustain over time. To sustain it, we much nourish its different components, for each is subject to the stress of time.
Empty love: Decision/Commitment Only- Empty love involves staying together solely for the sake of appearances or the children.
Nonlove: Absence of Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment- Nonlove can take many forms, such as attachment for financial reasons, fear, or the fulfilment of neurotic needs.
The Geometry of Love
The shape of the love triangle depends on the intensity of the love and the balance of the parts. Intense love relationships lead to triangles with greater area; such triangles occupy more of one's life. Just as love relationships can be balanced or unbalanced, so can love triangles. The balance determines the shape of the triangle. A relationship in which the intimacy, passion, and commitment components are equal results in an equilateral triangle. But if the components are not equal, unbalanced triangles form. The size and shape of a person's triangle give a good pictoral sense of how that person feels about another. The greater the match between the triangles of the two partners in a relationship, the more likely each is to experience satisfaction in the relationship
Who is better Hermione or Ginny by Lleyki
I tried to read the book as unbiased as possible and I honestly believe that JK deliberately left MANY ships open. They all had their one or two moments. That said I had my personal feelings on certain things and one of them is the great debate of who is better for Harry. Hermione or Ginny. I really believe that a big part of it comes down to personal feelings and what appeals to you; as well as canonical evidence.
Okay I'll start with Ginny first. Let me make it clear that I DO NOT hate the character. I have NO idea where this 'Ginny is loose or a slut' opinions are coming from. The girl is 14 yrs. old. Casual dating is normal and I don't think Ginny is doing anything more than a kiss or two with ANY of those boys. That said I was one of those persons happy that Ginny got a personality because by GOF I was desperate for ANYTHING to make the girl interesting.
That said I DIDNOT find her incredibly interesting. Sorry but that's personal taste. Ginny seemed like any typical 14 yr. old to me, just as Ron usually comes off as typical. Put it this way; if OOTP was the first HP book I read; the character would not be stuck in my memory or make such an impact on me. Luna (yes), Harry (definitely), Hermione, the twins and even Umbridge; but not her. Also I was one of those persons who found parts of Ginny's development contrived and convenient. With what little I saw of Ginny in the previous books; the image drawn was a girl who was shy, quiet but strong. Yes I know Ron said in COS that it was surprising she wasn't saying much around Harry since she usually doesn't shut up; but that's with her family. You can be very vocal with your family because of the comfort level; but still be extremely shy around other people. I believed she was shy because I felt that explained her nervousness around Harry. Confident, snappy girls like we were supposed to believe Ginny is after OOTP; DO NOT stammer and go speechless around guys they like.
The two pictures don't go together. I believed she was strong because if nothing else she survived that whole Voldemort drama, looking normal and stable. She appeared sweet and caring (sticking to her date with Neville and I guess it would be hard for her not to be, being a Weasley and all. Yes there's Percy but every family has a black sheep.) However the Quidditch thing seemed EXTREMELY contrived and IF JK is going the way of H/G, R/Hr; a very convenient way to get them closer. As convenient as making Ron a Prefect (I really don't need to start my rant on this again).
Okay the meat of this post. The debate of who is better for Harry. Ginny had character development and a few moments were written between herself and Harry. So why then did I still NOT come out loving the pair? Why did I still NOT connect to the character and am still NOT able to swallow her as Harry's great love? Is it because I refuse to EVER accept any other girl for Harry except Hermione? Not really; because I truly am warmed to the idea of Harry and Luna and while I was NEVER a H/C shipper, I felt JK's treatment of that relationship was EXTREMELY poorly written and developed. Okay so why then do I NOT see and believe in the beauty of H/G? I'll argue using the moments many supporters of that ship saw as promoting it.
Ginny's Talking Of Her Possession- Before I comment on this; I want to mention something Gilyann said about how she loves the way Ginny talks to Harry. Fair enough. She was certainly direct and cutting with him in this scene. However, before her comments Hermione is the one who tells Harry out rightly to stop lying about being fine and she informs him to stop acting so misunderstood (which he really was doing at that point). Therefore the argument of how Ginny speaks to Harry is a little pale to Hermione. Hermione can be sympathetic, angry, defiant, exasperated, funny, warm, etc with Harry. It all depends on what the situation calls for. Okay Ginny's talking of her possession. A couple of reasons I DIDNOT see this as helping the pair.
Harry was very insensitive. I LOVE the boy but I am open to his less than stellar moments. This could have been a great connection or bonding moment with Harry and Ginny; but it wasn't. The girl was sharing something that was extremely traumatic for her and Harry's only reaction was to feel joy and relief because as it turned out he wasn't being possessed. There is very little warmth and sympathy by Harry coming towards Ginny or her pain. None. He was more concerned with himself which I can't really blame the kid for but it certainly didn't help the ship. It felt basically that the entire scene was there for expository purposes. We the readers along with Harry were supposed to realize why Harry definitely could not be possessed by Voldemort; because as it turned out he had none of Ginny's experiences. Plus since she was being made more important in this book it did help to revisit that since it really was the last time she had any real purpose in the books.
The biggest gripe in this scene for me was because of those words spoken by Harry "I forgot." WHAT? How in the hell do you forget something like that? Especially when you can remember a curse used on your glasses in Year 3. A spell which he DIDNOT do himself and one he didn't EVER use again until that point. Harry could remember this and not that Ginny was possessed by Voldemort? This wasn't a case of this happening to Ginny and Harry only being aware because he knows Ron. He was THERE. He found her, he knew before anyone else that she was the one who had opened the chamber and it was because she was being controlled. How do you forget something like that, especially such a sequence of dark events? I know someone would say he had alot on his mind but hasn't anyone noticed that besides the spell for his glasses, how many little, almost seemingly insignificant memories of Hermione seem to be creeping in Harry's mind? Things from their earliest years to present; yet this he forgets.
Okay the issue of Hermione informing Harry and Ron that Ginny no longer "fancies Harry". Harry's response? "So that's why she's talking now?" I'll admit that Harry doesn't like Ginny right now so one doesn't expect him to be broken up that's she's apparently over him. However, the fact that it took Hermione's saying Ginny was over him to make him realize why she was 'speaking' now; says something. If Harry were really aware of Ginny in the slightest way; Harry would have made some comment or realization to himself from the weeks at Grimmauld Place that Ginny seemed to be speaking more around him. With the start of all the previous books there was the mention of Ginny having always been taken with Harry and then her blushing, etc, etc. A blank statement by Harry of Ginny being more talkative around him than she'd ever been would have sufficed. It would have shown his actual awareness of her, even if only on a subconscious level.
The library incident. I am a big enough person to accept something as sweet, whether or not I like the ship (unlike MANY people here). It was rather cute when they were being chased out of the library by Madam Pince and there was genuine one-on-one interaction between them. However I maintain that I DIDNOT like the fact that Ginny didn't even ask ANY questions but simply gave Harry what he wanted. Plus it didn't impress me much that she simply went to the twins to let them come up with something. I don't mean to be petty and look like I'm making strikes against one and the other (but what the hell) but when Hermione wants to solve Harry's problems she does it on her own. She came with the idea of the DA, the article was her idea, she came up with the entire plan to use Umbridge's office to try to talk to Sirius before they went to DOM; right down to small things like immediately knowing he couldn't see in the rain and fixing his glasses, saving him from falling off his broom (although that wasn't exactly small), making a soothing potion for his hands, etc. I could go on but I think you'll get the point. Again I felt like Ginny should have at least asked Harry why this was so important. I mean they would be risking being caught by Umbridge (who was certifiable psychopath, Sirius being found out, etc. Who knows? Harry might have very well answered and right there an even deeper moment would be shared between them because as noted Harry didn’t tell Hermione and Ron about the pensieve memory of his parents. This would be big because it would the first big, emotional thing in his life that they didn't know but someone else besides Sirius or DD, knew. However, for what it was, it was at least cute.
A few other things. I know some persons are making a deal about Harry standing infront of Ginny when Bellatrix threatens to hurt her first. However it's been argued very eloquently that ALL the kids moved in closer around Ginny and then Harry stepped infront. In other words, these kids were going to go down ALL fighting for each other. Btw, it should be noted that Harry at that point KNEW he had led his friends into a trap and was about to do anything to get them ALL out safely. It was simple instinct people. Also in the book there were moments which revealed that Harry continues to look on Ginny as someone in his life but not central to it. For instance, his telling statement to her, Neville and Luna that the situation DIDNOT include them when they wanted to go to the DOM too. In essence; Harry's immediate world continues to be and STILL is Ron and Hermione and no amount of Quidditch playing time together in Bk.6 is going to convince me that will change.
There were also a few times where Ginny STILL came off as a child and sometimes a rather petulant one at that. The DOM incident is one and her scowl and response to Hermione saying they needed three thestrals. I honestly believed Hermione said this out of habit in that herself, Harry and Ron really are ones who go on their adventures. Sometimes one may not be there but NO ONE outside the trio is ever included and it was just a force of habit statement. However the way Ginny reacted, I half expected her to stamp her foot and pout. I also got the sense that Ginny saw this as one big, exciting adventure and "I want to be a part of it." She wants to prove she's no kid and while I can understand that; this isn't a game or some little adventure. It's real life. It's dangerous and real. Finally there's still that eerie feeling of deja-vu I got reading Sirius chasing the train. I am NOT saying Ginny will definitely die but I still see it as a HUGE possibility. To all that, I say is H/G possible? Sure. Anything's possible right now. Do I think she is better for Harry than Hermione? No; and that's an opinion I'll hold whether or not she and Harry end up together. Okay I was going to comment about why Hermione is better for him but it's REALLY late here and I'm tired; which means I'm having trouble pulling my thoughts together; so I'll post on THAT tomorrow.
Okay before I go into my whole analysis of why I think Hermione is better for Harry; let me respond to a few things. I don't like being misunderstood so let me clear this up immediately. Gilyann I never purported to say that Ginny didn't care AT ALL about what was going on. Of course she wanted to help out of genuine concern. My simple observation is that judging by her immediate scowl and rather petulant way of reacting to Harry and the others wanting to keep her behind; it gave off the impression of a little girl pouty over being left behind. Someone who wanted to prove that "look I can be brave too, I can be strong, etc." Again I don't hate her for it. Being the last child of a family of seven and the only girl, it makes sense. My simple point is that it didn't do much in making the character as appealing as Jk strove to do throughout the book (what with the boyfriends, Quidditch, etc.) That's all. Also I am not trying to stubbornly see H/Hr by saying that no amount of Quidditch together will convince me that Harry will switch his trust and sharing from Hermione to Ginny. It's not about shipping but the main problem I had with OOTP; that it would seem contrived.
Let me try to explain that better. The whole time I read Ron being Prefect I was literally rolling my eyes. The entire thing was completely contrived and stupid; as well as him winning the Cup. I mean honestly; with the exception of Angelina and one or two players; the entire team was in-experienced players. I bet that's why she didn't actually write it and chose instead to have Harry and Hermione go meet Grawp. Perhaps JK herself could not have written that entire thing realistically. I already believe that Ginny being on the team was contrived and her suddenly having Harry and Ginny become so close because of it will add to the convenience of it. Plus if Harry becomes distant with Hermione or continues to not listen to her when she says something, I don't know that I'll be able to continue reading the books. Again this is very little to do with shipping but simple literary criticism. The fact of the matter is above all else what we are meant to see through the seven books is Harry's development. The fact is he has done the not listening to Hermione thing more than once and ALL the time she was right. At what point does JK make the character grow and realize that what he feels and wants to do now is not always the right thing to do. Besides I am not quite convinced that Jk will go the way of Harry pulling away from Hermione for a few things. One, the whole him having the rational part of his brain sounding likes her. It seems that while his conscious self is not willing to listen to her; his sub-conscious is. Re-interacting my belief that while Harry may get upset at Hermione, he is not stupid and therefore knows when she is probably right about things. Two, the constant reference in the end that she was right and he should have listened to her. Am I to believe that after that kind of heart-breaking lesson in having to lose Sirius; Harry will continue on his road of not listening to Hermione? What is the boy just a glutton for punishment? I can see Harry becoming closer to Luna on a platonic level just because of the shared death experience. Plus we saw him hearing Hermione's voice telling him 'reckless' when he wanted to follow Dobby and he actually listened. For once he didn't try to talk himself into doing something anyway but made arguments for why the whole thing would indeed be reckless. If anything the road she seems to be taking is one of Harry FINALLY realizing that if Hermione says this is wrong or not smart she's probably right or at least has legitimate reasons to think it.
Btw, yes Gilyann; Harry's heart started lightening after Ginny said the reasons why Voldemort couldn't have possessed him. However he was still doubtful and afraid to be hopeful. He was completely convinced when Hermione patiently reminded him that one cannot apparate or disapparte out of Hogwarts and Ron cemented it by telling him that he was in his bed the whole time. It was the combination of all three of them. It amuses me that you get so miffed by persons saying that Hermione got Harry out of the room and consequently his mood; even though whatever the figurative meaning may have been she was the one who LITERALLY got him out of the room. Yet, you would actually say that it was Ginny in that scene who made Harry feel better. The moment Harry entered that room with those three kids they ALL helped in some small way. My problem with this scene as I said wasn't about who did or didn't make Harry feel better. My feeling was and continues to be that Harry had very little sympathy or compassion towards Ginny here. Besides even forgetting the fact in the first place, his reaction to hearing her talk of something that traumatic to her was "oh great I'm not possessed." I'm not saying he should not have been happy or that he had to hold her hands during the whole thing but a simple statement of "Harry knew it was hard for Ginny to talk about the events in the Chamber but he couldn't help feeling slightly hopeful that he wasn't being possessed." Simple but it would give a complete change to the feel of the scene, especially between Harry and Ginny. Btw, persons could argue that in that moment Harry was extremely pre-occupied so his not remembering Ginny was possessed means nothing. Fair enough. However something else that occurred to me is the meeting at Hogshead. When the student brings up Harry's killing the basilisk Jk could have inserted a quick glance between Harry and Ginny. It would have sufficiently set up her talking about the possession later on because there would be that flash of memory between the two. A simple mention of Ginny catching Harry's eyes or vice-versa etc. would serve a good few purposes. One in particular being that there is this unspoken connection between the two. As much as Ginny was personally affected by Voldemort as was Harry; I have never felt a connection between the two because of it. It always seemed like he saved her and that was it; almost like when he saved Fleur's sister. A case of just helping someone who was in danger and nothing more and as Turambar mentioned that is cemented in his 'your sister" statement to Ron. I thought they had gotten so much closer in this book so why is she still referred to as Ron's sister? If the point was to address Ron he could have still used her name; informing Ron that it wasn't a problem when he was saving Ginny. I'm sure Ron would have responded just as he did. Therefore the scene would remain as is with a significant difference.
Okay Hermione as a partner for Harry. Okay so everyone says Hermione makes Harry upset, she actually annoys him. However I don't think I read the books incorrectly when deducing that Hermione only angers Harry when she is telling him what he DOES NOT want to hear. Plus at the start of the book Harry was snippy and angry with ALOT of people; not just Hermione; so I paid little mind to his responses to her at those times. Judging by some persons views the consensus is that Hermione just simply DOES NOT get Harry and angers him; period. That is NOT true. I maintain as I always have that Harry gets annoyed with Hermione when she says what he doesn't want to hear and most times knows is right. With those exceptions Hermione is not some annoyance to Harry like persons seem to think.
When Harry is having his little tantrum when Hermione suggests the DA, she is able to calm him down by saying Voldemort’s name. That was NOT easy for her considering how she stammered the first couple of times doing it but she did it and that meant alot to Harry. Speaking of the DA; persons make little deal of it but the fact is Harry got immense pride and joy out of that group. Persons will chose to concentrate on Harry's initial gripe about the group but will completely ignore the complete calm and joy Harry got from the whole experience. The entire thing which was again HERMIONE's plan; all hers.
Hermione made Harry feel better through Rita. Persons believed him more, less kids were watching him strangely; things did get almost normal for him again. That again was ALL Hermione. Hermione was supportive to Harry to the point of even helping with Cho. He liked Cho so she tried to help him understand where the girl was coming from. Hermione was being quite supportive and for someone who doesn't really like to talk to this girl Harry was sharing quite alot here. Honestly I was quite surprised Harry was this open with Hermione about something like this. I half expected him to tell her his date went fine and leave it at that.
Hermione also continues to very much impress Harry with her intelligence. He immediately picked up about the coins and surprisingly didn't feel weirded out about her using something reminiscent of Voldemort. If anything he amusingly noted that her way was better. Hermione did make Harry feel better when he was worried about Umbridge possibly being controlled by Voldemort like Quirrel. She was calm and rational and made him calm down. Harry gets so annoyed by Hermione but his instincts whenever worried is to immediately tell Ron and Hermione.
Something else that stood out to me is Harry's reaction to SPEW. If Hermione was really annoying Harry often; he would be like Ron everytime she brought up SPEW. If anything Harry made many references to Hermione and SPEW in the books but never with mockery or annoyance. It was always in the sense of how Hermione would feel if she saw this of a house-elf or how her face was glowing as much as when she spoke of SPEW. Also one of the arguments noted before OOTP was always how Hermione's voice sounded to Harry as shrilly, panicky, etc. It is something to note that BOTH times Harry refers to Hermione's voice in his mind there is NO mention of shrilly or any other adjective persons perceive as annoyance. In fact the only thing we get is he heard her voice in a whispered way. Actually if anything the image created from that was a rather romantic one.
Hermione is the person aware of Harry's scar hurting him at Grimmauld Place. She is the one who is aware of the significance of Malfoy's words. One could argue that the others weren't listening; but it says something that neither Ron or Ginny for all their closeness to Harry and Hermione didn't notice them looking tense and uncomfortable; to pick up that something was wrong.
A few other things to comment on about Hermione. Gilyann I have to really disagree with your attitude on Hermione explaining Ron's side to Harry in GOF. Your attitude of who cares about Ron baffles me. Even if I might be one who believes Hermione has feelings for Harry I am of the opinion too that first and foremost though; these kids are friends. To be rather corny "one for all and all for one" if you will. Silly crushes, developing romantic feelings, etc. aside there is a real, honest and deep friendship between those three kids and to say why would Hermione care about Ron's feelings is rather surprising to me. I have always been of the mind that the first step to fixing a problem is to understand where each other is coming from because it's through understanding we get healing. As far as you're saying since Hermione likes Harry more than Ron; she should have been doing what? Saying "Harry you're right, Ron is totally unfair to you", etc? To accomplish what, except furthering the wedge between the two boys. Harry really completely and honestly had NO clue why Ron was acting the way he was. Incidentally Hermione DIDNOT jump up defending Ron to Harry. Hermione was more concerned with Harry. She brought him breakfast, listened to him talk about what exactly happened and immediately went into his having to write to Sirius and being careful speech. Harry was the one who brought up Ron which led her to explain Ron's stance. Btw, your question of what she could have said to Ron in defending Harry. Well how about "Ron, Harry would never lie to you or do that. When has Harry ever kept something from you, etc." You get my point. She could very well have been defending Harry to Ron. The fact is Hermione was trying to get her friends to mend their friendship and to question her loyalty or understanding of Harry simply because she sought to make him understand why Ron was acting as he was is a little silly to me.
Okay is Hermione perfect? Of course not. Is Hermione bossy and pushy at times? Of course she is. Just as Ron can be insensitive at times as Harry can be too stubborn at times. Does Hermione have a fear of failure? I'm sure she does. It might have to do with being technically outsider and also female. I can understand that. Trust me try being black and a woman. It's a double-edged sword. I too have an almost obsession about succeeding. That said Hermione is not the awful, insensitive character that many posters would like to believe she is. Hermione whether or not persons like her DOES understand Harry. I'm sorry but someone does not be as smart and intuitive as Hermione, spend five years of such intimate friendship with someone and not understand him. Yes Hermione told about the Firebolt(Lord will we ever get past this) but it's probably because she DID know Harry. She KNEW that whether or not she shared her fears; he would convince himself (along with Ron egging him on) that she was just being dramatic and ride it anyway. So she made a decision that would make him mad but keep him safe. I know some persons and I will never see this the same but to me Hermione showed immense strength and maturity there. How easy would it have been to just bend because he would be so convincing. Almost like how she gave in when he came into Hogsmeade without permission; despite her objections.
Hermione knows Harry well enough to know when he will do something risky just because it's in his nature. She understands him enough to know that he very much would make himself feel guilty about Sirius about having to go back to school. Hermione was the one who warned DD that leaving Harry so long at the Dursleys without any information would be possibly dangerous because he would get frustrated and possibly do something stupid and crazy. He nearly almost did a couple of times and he was furious with them as she expected him to be. Hermione was patient enough with Harry's anger to very calmly inform him to stop yelling at her but never getting angry herself or defensive because she understood where it was coming from.
She was aware enough of how much he hated feeling helpless and that his constant outbursts in class, leading to Detention wasn't helping so she created the DA. Harry's one source of peace and enjoyment for a while. Hermione's presence continues to be central in Harry's life. From his hearing her voice in his mind to memories of simple things happened years ago to his sudden need to not be a failure in his eyes. We saw that in the scene after the Prefects were announced and when his immediate thought in hearing about T's is that he would have to work harder because it would be really hard hiding from her he had failed. If Harry ignores Hermione, as some believe; why would he care so much?
Hermione is to me a full-rounded female in Harry's life. She can be his equal partner in danger. We see it in her fighting at DOM right alongside him before she is hit, thinking to mark the doors, steering them away from the veil, etc. She is right there along with Harry leading the charge. She can be his voice of conscience and reason as Harry mentions and even with her stopping him from hurting a baby, even if it was a DE. Again she maintains that balance of what is right versus what is easy. She is not afraid to face his wrath if it means saving him. She will fight with and for him. She may be slightly intimidated by him but she will never back down from him. Through all that she is not above being the damsel to him at times and being feminine. We see it in her constantly grabbing him, her actually whimpering behind his shoulder. Hermione almost never shows such weakness unless it's with Harry. Hermione may not LOVE Quidditch but she will support him wholeheartedly. I don't think I need to show the MANY examples of this. I'd say just read all the books to see this. So again I am saying H/Hr is a done deal? No because this is still JK's vision. However I have YET to see that Ginny is better partner for Harry than Hermione and ONE book of some development is not about to change that.
(Flying Phoenix) About this DA a good point by you lleyki. That’s something what’s very important. It’s written at Christmas that without the DA Harry wouldn't go back to Hogwarts.
The DA is the only things through the year what keep Harry going though he didn’t thought about it and didn’t want believe Hermione. How often did he mention it’s her idea? Do you believe if he think about DA he don’t connect it with Hermione. These things, which Hermione does, are much more successfully as Ginny’s little scene about Voldemort doesn’t possess him. First the DA what give Harry happiness through this time and the article. After that Harry can nearly life a normal life again. He can go around without be watched as if he is mad. That’s what Hermione did. It’s very different to Ginny. By Ginny was it only just a moment of a lighter heart but by this two things were it months. You can be sure without this two things Harry wouldn't get through this year like he did and that is a fact.
Harry's tough road by Mar Dhea
In regard to Harry's lack of desire to listen to Hermione when she tells him the truth, when she muses on situations, what have you - Harry is remarkably frustrated with life. One of the biggest reasons that he's not willing to take in what Hermione says is that he just doesn't want to face it. Deliverance is nothing to him - it's what is delivered...he wants to send it all back, and have a nice, uncomplicated life. But he doesn't have one, and when he needs to see truth, he finds it hard. It's another slap in the face with a wet fish by life. Sugar-coated or not, it's still a bad deal Harry's getting. I don't think Hermione telling him the opposite of the truth, just to make him happy is exactly the kind of thing that would command respect, or trust. Harry knows that what Hermione says always - always - makes sense; it's just that he doesn't want it to. If it were Ron saying the stuff - that Sirius is disappointed that he's not expelled because he misses James and sees a new James in Harry - not because he's unhinged, but because he's very lonely; that Hagrid isn't as great a teacher as Harry forces himself to believe and that he makes life difficult for Harry, Hermione, Ron and Hagrid himself, etc. - it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, his reactions would remain the same. Peppered with 'mate' or not, Harry is sick of the hand he's being dealt and isn't willing to listen to it being told to him. But what's the other option? Lie?
And Harry is frustrated with everything. Now, I don't know how hard it is coping with being a teenage boy, but I do know the 'angstiness' that descends upon one in adolescence (I'm a girl, so ask me nothing about the trauma of a broken voice) and frustration with life is a pretty common whine. The difference here is, on top of that, Harry has very, very good reasons to think life is distinctly unfair to him. And when you're in a mood when you think life is blowing raspberries at you, you don't want to listen to reason from anyone. Ever. It's majorly annoying. But you still need to hear sense, because you can't go around with your head firmly under a rain cloud, shooting daggers at everything. Eventually you get it. You appreciate it. You feel like an idiot for being so whiny and feeling all woeful, misunderstood, tortured. But at the time, you do feel like the world and its chicken are your enemy, and you seriously wish life would drown in a sea of cyanide. That's most likely how Harry feels about everything - in fact, that's it. And that needs to be accounted for in his dealings with everyone.
Just for the record, that's the same thing Ron went through in GoF with the jealously thing. And Hermione never went through it...is it because she was never dealt a bad hand? Nah. It takes real maturity - I couldn't skirt the 'life is a torture device' phase, and I 'm not exactly a Ron - to get that kind of perspective on life, and not see it as out to get you. It's far better for Harry to be able to be influenced by Hermione's ability to get perspective on a situation, and assess it, than to have her pander to his bouts of self-pity and ferocity. That's what I call being a friend - giving them the truth, all the time, even when it's hard to swallow.
Honestly, who wants Hermione to morph into a liar because it suits Harry?
Ron's development by Turambar
(Mutant for Hire) Quote:
Okay, as this thread was disgressing in an area, I decided to kick off a
new thread on my views on Ron. The short statement is that the Ron/Hermione dynamic of this book and previous books is about to take a dramatic shift. There is every reason to think that Ron is going to be changing, and quite significantly as well, from book five to book six, in an inverse of the change of Harry from books four to five.
xxxxxx
You brought up the question of Ron's development in relation to shipping so I'm going to reply to it here.
I agree that Ron will be changing in the next book but I see limits on how
significant that will be and how that will affect shipping.
a) While Ron is developing so are other characters.
b) This is Harry's series, not Ron's therefore Harry will remain the most important character and his romance will be the most important in the series.
c) There's strong evidence to suggest that Harry is even more of a priority for Hermione than before.
d) She has gone a book and a half without encouraging Ron.
On development: Ginny for instance developed quite a lot in OOTP but so did Hermione, Harry, and Neville. It isn't a case of Ron suddenly changing and others standing still.
This series is about Harry not Ron so Ron's development cannot be to the extent of overshadowing Harry or threatening Harry's position as the hero of the series. I suspect the fact that OOTP is so dominated by Harry is in part a response by the author to the popularity of Ron as a character. Ron is the sidekick.
Before OOTP people noted in posts on the trio that there had been a pattern of accelerated development for Harry and Hermione in comparison with Ron over POA and GOF. Development in terms of maturity, magical power, skill, importance, closeness.
People speculated that in OOTP Ron might gain much needed development to be nearer their level.
What JKR has actually done is carefully kept a distance between Harry and Hermione on the one hand and Ron.
Ron makes the Quidditch team and gains some responsibility as a prefect.
But Harry and Hermione aren't standing still:
a) Hermione thinks up and organises the DA and Harry leads it, teaching the other students.
b) Hermione gets Harry's story about Voldemort out to the public.
c) They jointly discuss, plan and execute the whole rescue bid for Sirius
while Ron follows orders. Harry and Hermione are written as fighting the
final battle together while Ron is apart and ineffective. Ron's last effective contribution to a book's climax was in PS with the chess game.
d) Hermione puts the sneak jinx on the DA list (which no one seems to have devised a cure for judging by the balaclava the victim is wearing on the train journey home), we're told she can do a NEWT-level charm.
e) Harry and Hermione's interaction in OOTP is at the heart of Harry dealing with his anger, recklessness, growing power and the key changes from childhood to adulthood.
I would expect Ron to gain more confidence having been a prefect for a year and finally having success at the end with Quidditch. He suffered a dip in confidence this year. He will also no longer have any older brothers around.
But look at how he reacted to his Quidditch win: lapped up the attention, enjoyed the fame, ruffled his hair in front of a group of students. We've seen this Ron before, in GOF, when he played up to Fleur and Padma. Isn't it a possibility that with more confidence next year he may branch
out a bit socially and may become interested in other girls rather than Hermione?
If we look at what Ron has 'gained' since PS:
a) An award for the school in COS
b) new robes, a new broom
c) prefect status, Quidditch team status
d) fame with helping to win the house cup in PS and COS, being attacked by Sirius in POA, being involved in the lake task in GOF, being prefect, helping to win the Quidditch cup
These are all 'advances' (in his view) in measuring himself against Harry. Gaining them may help his confidence but do they make Ron any closer to being attractive to Hermione?
Well for a start we know from her actions and words about Cho that she is observant about boy/girl interactions, discusses them with Ginny, thinks about them, is able to discuss tricky issues with Harry and Ron.
I think we can deduce therefore that she is well aware of Ron's crush on her and is keeping him at arms length. On the one hand she wants to maintain her friendship with him and on the other she doesn't want to encourage him. She uses the letter to Krum and the mention of Krum as a shield against Ron's interest, IMO. She responds with a very neutral word "unusual" when he gives her perfume. The one time that she feels she has to risk him misunderstanding her is when she kisses him. He was in such a bad way that I feel she had to give an extra show of support for him and perhaps distract him.
In OOTP there is less tension between Ron and Hermione so they get on better. That's principally because Ron isn't battling back against her, the way he was in GOF. He allows her to dominate him. With a more confident Ron in the next book would we see that continue? Or would we see a more forceful, louder Ron as he was in POA and GOF? Or have we in fact seen 'angry' Ron in POA and GOF and from now on we will see the more 'mature' Ron who appears to shy away from confrontation with Hermione?
Does Hermione want a boyfriend she can dominate? She was interested in Viktor who was older, famous, an international Quidditch player, a champion in an inter-school competition. A formidable character, clearly no pushover and someone with obvious, elite talents. Does this sound like Ron? Then there's her reaction to whenever Harry achieves something: she seems to get as much of a kick out of it as he does e.g. his numerous Quidditch wins, her reaction at the end of COS, her reaction at the end of the first task, even her reaction to the reaction to the Quibbler article, the way her face glows in a way that reminds Harry of her passionate fervour over S.P.E.W. when she's thinking about Harry teaching her. I think it's quite clear she wants someone she can respect and admire.
In OOTP Ron appears to appreciate Hermione more but only in terms of how useful she is to him in helping with his homework. Otherwise don't their basic problems remain?
Are they any more mentally in tune than before? Why is it then that JKR makes a point of only Hermione noticing that Harry's scar is hurting and only Hermione and Harry noticing Draco's "dogging" comment or that only Harry is aware of what Hermione is up to when faking tears in Umbridge's office. BTW it says something for Harry and Hermione's rapport that Ginny, Hermione's close female friend, is as much in the dark as Ron about both Harry and Hermione's thoughts on all those occasions.
Is Ron any closer to being Hermione's equal in terms of brain power, magical power or force of personality? Ron is intelligent enough but Harry and Hermione have always been able to think on their feet faster than he can e.g. Riddle's diary, the chamber mystery, Sirius' letter in GOF. As FP pointed out, in OOTP Ron's contribution to the debate over rescuing Sirius was pretty illogical. Hermione simply doesn't show signs of respecting Ron. Yet with Harry she respects him so much she proposes that he teaches her - Hermione? Miss 130 per cent? When the Quibbler article comes out she praises Harry, even though it was her hard work that made it possible.
This is important because Hermione is used to being more intelligent than other students. Yet again is it any wonder she was interested in Krum, an older, experience, mature student. Harry is the only fellow student she knows with whom she feels she can be weaker, can rely on, can cling to for support. She never feels that way about Ron. In their relationship the need runs one way.
And Hermione is the only student Harry can
a) allow to sometimes make decisions for him
b) whose opinion he can sometimes look up to
c) whose loyalty has never been in question
d) whom he knows has some skills he doesn't
e) who will give him the truth even if it's hard to swallow.
Teacups and chess by Mof
I know that someone has pointed out the scene where Hermione’s teacup dances around Harry’s, but I haven't seen anyone interpreting it thoroughly. As you know, they are charming teacups:
He and Ron both tapped the teacups they were supposed to be charming with their wands. Harry’s spouted four very short legs that could not reach the desk and wriggled pointlessly in midair. Ron’s grew four very thin spindly legs that hoisted the cup off the desk with great difficulty, trembled for a few seconds, then folded, causing the cup to crack into two.
˜Reparo" said Hermione quickly, mending Ron’s cup with a wave of her wand.˜That's all very well, but what if Montague's permanently injured?" ˜Who cares? ´ said Ron irritably, while his teacup stood up drunkenly again, trembling violently at the knees. ´Montague shouldn't have tried to take all those points from Gryffindor, should he? If you want worry about anyone, worry about me. ˜You?” She said, catching her teacup as I scampered happily away across the desk on four sturdy little willow-patterned legs, and replacing it in front of her. ˜Why should I be worried about you"(then Ron explains his fear that his mother will blame him of Fred and George's escape)"Yeah, but that's another thing, how did they get premises?" said Ron, hitting his teacup so hard with his wand that its legs collapsed again and lay twitching before him. ˜It's a bit dodgy, isn't it? They'll need loads of Galleons to afford the rent on a place in Diagon Alley. She'll want to know what they've been up to, to get their hands on that sort of gold!" ˜Well, yes, that occurred to me too." said Hermione, allowing her teacup to jog in neat little circles around Harry's, whose stubby little legs were still unable to touch the desktop (Harry tells them about his Triwizard winnings) there was a shocked silence, then Hermione’s teacup jogged right over the edge of the desk and smashed on to the floor.
- Grawp, p. 598-600, UK edition
OK, Ron’s and Harry’s teacups are very different, Harry’s has those stubby, short legs unable to touch the desktop, while Ron’s are so long and thin that they make his teacup crash.
I’m quite certain that it might show their different personalities (especially concerning love, since the fact that Hermione’s teacup dances around Harry’s might lead us to believe that this shows her feelings for Harry). Harry isn't getting anywhere with his teacup. He really is a bit dim-witted when it comes to girls and romance, and that’s why he doesn’t notice Hermione dancing in front of him.
Meanwhile, Ron is so excited that his legs are so extraordinary long and thin that he crashes. Perhaps he’s a bit too fast concerning his and Hermione’s relationship? Then Hermione repairs Ron’s teacup, and this might bee seen like she is actually encouraging Ron regarding a relationship, but I rather think this shows that Ron believes that Hermione is encouraging him, without it actually meaning anything. Hermione just wants to be his friend, and doesn’t like to see him in pieces on the desktop. The reason why I say this is that immediately afterwards Ron says that she should be worried about him. Hermione reacts by taking her teacup, which had been drifting, and makes it dance in front of Harry, as if she had been unaware that Ron might see this as an invitation to a relationship, and then she makes it dance around Harry, as if she is showing that her feelings lie elsewhere. Then, when busy dancing and jogging around Harry, her teacup dances right to the edge and smashes. I have some difficulties with this. Will Harry find someone else, and crush her heart?
Will Hermione’s relationship with Harry mean death for her (possibly by big old Voldie)? Perhaps this is JKR's way of showing us that while Hermione has control of her teacup/emotions when addressing Harry, she completely loses her teacupemotions when thinking about Harry
Or isn’t this symbolic? Should we just take this in its literal meaning?“ that Hermione is so shocked by Harry’s news that she loses control of the teacup.
I should tell you that I’m not entirely comfortable with my interpretation of this scene, I can't really tell you why. I’m much more confident with the following interpretation, though:
There was another scene which caught my attention, it is the scene with the much disputed line Ron has (find someone better next time - to Ginny) Ron has just learned that Ginny isn’t dating Michael Corner anymore:
˜Well, I always thought he was a bit of an idiot," he said, prodding his queen forwards towards Harry’s quivering castle. ˜Good for you. Just choose someone “ better “ next time. He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it. ˜Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?" asked Ginny vaguely.
˜WHAT?" shouted Ron, upending the chessboard: Crookshanks went plunging after the pieces and Hedwig and Pigwidgeon twittered and hooted angrily from overhead.
- The Second War Begins, p. 763, UK edition.
Well, assuming that Ron is suggesting that Harry should go for Ginny, it neatly fits in with prodding his queen (Ginny?) towards Harry's quivering castle. Could the word quivering mean that Harry isn’t exactly happy about the thought of Ginny as a possible girlfriend? Also, remember that Harry spent much time by himself in the final chapter away from his friends because he was sad about Sirius's death, so the castle might tell us that Harry has built an emotional wall around himself. Another possibility about the emotional wall is that Harry still needs to discover his subconscious feelings for Hermione.
Then Ginny tells about Dean Thomas, and Ron upends the chessboard; His plan is destroyed. What I thought really interesting is that Crookshanks is plunging after the pieces. Some people have mentioned the fact that Crookshanks sometimes is a mirror of Hermione’s emotions, that pets learns to know their owner's feelings, and learns what kind of people they are comfortable with. Assuming that JKR is putting in Crookshanks as Hermione, it must mean that Hermione isn’t exactly thrilled about a Harry/Ginny relationship either.
Also, the fact that Hedwig and Pigwidgeon are twittering angrily overhead might suggest a future argument between Harry and Ron about Hermione, assuming that their pets also represents them in this scene.
Runes and planets by Nia
I would like to add that eihwaz, the rune of defense, has a male polarity and that ehwaz, meaning partnership, has a male/female polarity. This rune is also associated with ‘physical shifts.’ Its upright: “Movement and change for the better. Gradual development, harmony, teamwork, steady progress, trust, and loyalty.” (squee--It's a FA thing)
I find it also enormously interesting that the rune is connected with horses. Hermione makes a statement posters on the Harry Potter for Grownups list have called “rude.” Ch. 27 “Centaur and the Sneak” p.599 (American edition)
“I bet you wish you hadn’t given up Divination now, don’t you, Hermione?” asked Parvati smirking.
“Not really,” said Hermione indifferently, who was reading the Daily Prophet. “I’ve never really liked horses.”
Of course, this conversation serves to carry the exposition of the story forward, but on another level, this seems not quite like Hermione who has such a social consciousness. IMO it is referring to partnerships, which are equal alliances. Hermione knows she is intellectually superior. You have to give her ‘snaps’ the girl is almost always right. This hampers her ability to truly form an ongoing equal partnership with anyone, including Harry, who she seems to respect most. She does not like to display less than stellar achievement. She is not as good as Harry in practical defense and she knows it. She does not quite appreciate that in practical defense one must sometimes ‘throw caution to the winds’ to succeed. (Reference PoA when she chides Harry about doing something foolish and he saves them both with his patronus) She likes to think things through and she and Harry always seem to butt heads in this area. Notice, though, in every book, Harry and Hermione are forced into some kind of partnership, where their combined strengths are required for success. I believe that in the end, we will see their combined strengths forming a deliberate partnership between these two that becomes an incredible force. Notice, also, that we have been allowed to see Hermione’s heart, her genuine care and compassion. In this respect, Harry and Hermione are the same, even though Hermione is sometimes mislead by her intellect (S.P.E.W.)
This brings me to what I also believe is a companion clue: Posted by Flying Phoenix, whose analytical thinking I greatly admire: (For reference to the following, see Ch.31 “O.W.L.S.” Pp. 718-719 (American edition)
Just let try a quick view at the fact that Harry misread Mars with Venus and Hermione defence with partnership. Its kinda ironic if H/Hr gonna happen than is this more as ironic. Because both would rather see the other sign as the obvious one. See what I wanna say is that Harry is now more focused at the war which is ahead or in front of him and Hermione is focused to keep Harry save. This include exactly that what I did always thought that all people around them recognise that H/Hr are more as just friends but they are to busy with saving the world if I may say it like that. This would really explain things for once that Harry doesn’t think about it. He just don't think (we are in his head) about why in the devils name his mind sounds like Hermione or that he thinks or has a awful much related thinking with her and about her.or each other, that in fact could be their salvation?
I think this idea is spot on and would like to elaborate. In his Astronomy OWL, Harry correctly labels the constellation Orion. Orion was a mighty hunter slain by Artemis. The constellation depicts him with his lion skin and sword, and club followed by his faithful dog, Sirius. Up until book five “seeker” was one of Harry’s labels. He fully understands this about himself. Up until book five, Harry is seeking the truth about his scar as well as a knowledge of why Voldemort want to kill him. I think that with Dumbledore’s return, Harry will be restored to his former position as Gryffindor Seeker, but it will not be as important to him. Books six and seven, I believe, will take Harry beyond the mundane to discover the nature of his greatest power, love. I honestly believe JKR can pull this off without making it sickeningly sweet. Notice how during the OWL, Harry is first distracted from Venus because of the disturbances at Hagrid’s hut, then finally mislabels Mars as Venus. Harry has been focused since PS/SS on saving the world from Voldemort and the war that he knows is coming. (Note that the centaurs in the Forbidden Forest are also focused on Mars, but always reiterate that ‘they could be wrong.’) Hermione has been focused on defending Harry as FP has so well observed. All of Harry’s successes against Voldemort so far have entailed some kind of partnership between Harry and Hermione. On some occasions, the partnerships have been inadvertent, such as in CoS, where Harry’s unspoken knowledge of the snake voice and Hermione’s logic worked together to allow him to discover the Chamber and save Ginny. If you notice in OotP, they are moving slowly toward an equal partnership with Hermione learning practical Defense against the Dark Arts and Harry vowing to put more effort into his studies as well as his open acknowledgement that Hermione was right.
Ginny has developed. So? by Turambar
I don't see any sign that Harry shows interest in Ginny beyond the fact that she's part of his favourite family, the Weasleys.
And even with that there are times immediately after the snake dream where he feels that close as he is to them, he is still apart, despite Molly's comment earlier that he is as good as a son to her. He is unable to help Ron at that time and neither Molly or Ron are able to help him, until Hermione arrives. Obviously his guilt over the dream was a factor there.
Essentially, despite Ginny's development as a character, all Harry has responded to about the new Ginny is that she's easier to get on with because she's no longer awkward around him.
The fact that she's a year behind and she's Ron's kid sister is a barrier between them. Where does he show any interest in her magical skills, despite the fact that her brothers are proud of them? Where does he show any interest in what she's doing socially - Ron and Hermione are more interested in that? She doesn't offer up ideas when he wants to speak to Sirius, she doesn't even stop to think if she can come up with anything. Her reaction when Hermione devises a plan is simply to follow orders like a good soldier.
Harry does notice that she's close to Fred and George and even looks like them. Is she essentially meant to fill their shoes as the reckless Weasley?
OOTP is Ginny's notice-I'm-no-longer-a-kid book. We see the Ginny who can be socially confident, play Quidditch, do spells. But none of that seems to impress Harry. He makes an honest assessment of her Quidditch skills, completely devoid of the emotional connection that for example colours his vision in regards to Hagrid's teaching skills.
It's interesting that Harry rescued Ginny from the chamber and it made no difference to his attitude to her. In fact he makes a point of reminding Ron in OOTP about rescuing "your sister" - which is impersonal and attaches her value to the worth of Ron.
Yet Harry and Ron's rescue of Hermione was so momentus the three, after previously disliking each other, became friends.
Similarly the emergence of Ginny Mark II offers the opportunity for reassessment: a kind of book long version of Hermione's social breakthrough at the Yule Ball.
Despite the fact that we know more about Ginny and she's more likeable than the Ginny we knew before, as a character she still seems a bit unnecessary, a kind of shadow Hermione as Neville is perhaps emerging as a shadow Harry.
What is Ginny's function? We have a heroine, a female lead, a female best friend for Harry. Is Ginny essentially a literary device, a distraction within the romance plot for the reader?
So Ginny shows a bit of bravery, friendship and loyalty: Hermione has them in abundance. No one has been as loyal to Harry as Hermione has.
Since Hermione puts Harry before everything else, even her family, she is totally single-minded when it comes to looking after his safety, his well-being. She'll come up with different ideas to make him feel better, she'll say things he doesn't want to hear for his own good, she'll repeatedly put herself in danger for him.
No-one else is ever likely to be that crazy, that dedicated to Harry.
Unlike Ginny, Hermione can come up with great ideas, and has the initiative, analytical skills and sharpness of mind to carry them out by herself, and to out-manoeuvre supposedly intelligent adults while doing so.
So Ginny can be direct and to the point, so can Hermione. So Ginny can be sympathetic, so can Hermione.
So we see that Ginny has a fun-loving side, but we're also seeing Hermione lightening up more.
Just as Ginny has developed so Harry and Hermione have developed to a more powerful, mature level.
Before this book, JKR had both Harry and Hermione interested in older people - Cho and Krum.
An important theme of OOTP is about the transition from childhood to adulthood, dealing with responsibility, with both Harry and Hermione taking on the mantle of leadership. Instead of others coming up to their level, the gap has become a chasm.
36. Hermione: annoying or not by Flying Phoenix
Or mothering or not mothering.
The best I can do is to start with the first book.
PS/SS: As Harry the first time meet Hermione. She is rather arrogant that’s how the first impression is. But still she seems to be nervous. She speaks very fast and bossy like. Well, annoyed not really. Mothering? Not yet. She knows already more as Harry in this scene. There is even an explanation why Hermione is how she is. She is the very first magic in her family and as such she have to proof she is it worth.
Second impression as she comes back into Harry’s and Ron’s compartment She is interfering or caring how you like it. But I rather think caring because she did help Neville to look after his toad. She went with him through the whole train with him.
How did this happen? First Neville looks into Harry and Ron’s compartment and ask after his toad. Minutes later is it Hermione that say 1. Both did ask separate from each other through the train or 2. Neville asked after he asked Harry and Ron in that compartment where Hermione did sit and the next thing she did was to help him.
For me is this caring.
Later by many examples we see that Hermione follows more the rules and is a know-it-all. But on the other hand unsure about her own knowledge even she did learn all her books by heart she still muttering nervous all spells she learned and look before the first fly lesson into her Quidditch book. For me another sign she wants proof herself. I mean she is from her family the only one who can magic that say she is special and its how her parents are that they might want to see that Hermione is really special and just on the paper. That’s why her greatest fear is to get expelled. Imagine you are special get more attention and special books things like all Hogwarts stuff. You learn a new world to know your parents a proud like maniacs and than you got EXPELLED! What a horror! Really, can you face your parents; can you even imagine how disappointment they are? And than you ask why Hermione is a know-it-all?! Lets face it the Dursleys don't care! The Weasleys are all magic, so Ron isn't special. But Hermione that’s something different. Her parents do care.
On Halloween the trio got be friend. Between it’s interesting, isn't it? That on the very same day as Harry’s parents die 10 years ago he got friend with Hermione. Now the next impression how helpfully or annoying Hermione is.
It was really lucky that Harry now had Hermione as friend. He didn't know how he'd have got through all his homework without her.
So its not annoying her helping with his homework or keeps him going with it. She do now break rules and isn’t anymore that strict like before. Her new friends come very fast very important to her.
COS: In this book we are learning mainly things how the mudbloods stand in this magic world. There isn't really a sign that Hermione is in the slightest way annoying Harry. Not even mothering how often I did read it. All what is in there is that the COS is open again and the trio want to proof Harry isn't the heir. We get again a taste how high Hermione see the teachers though in this book is she wrong to think Lockheart isn't who he seems.
PoA: Here we get the first sign that Hermione might be annoyed but she is more Ron annoying as Harry. Mainly because of the pets is there tension and for no other reason. Hermione study more as ever in this book. Its possible that she wanted again proof herself after a year which was mainly against muggleborns and after a year where she was 2 months knocked out so she had to proof herself again.
The firebolt-fight is the first sign that for Hermione is Harry’s safety more important as to be friend with him and know he bring himself in danger. This isn't mothering and not annoying it’s a question about caring.
GoF: Here are the first steps into a dangerous future for Harry. It’s at the QWC as the most terrible sign from Voldemort did appear on the sky and it was on the QWC as DE did torture Muggles. It’s normal if Hermione boss Harry forward in this dangerous situation. We already saw how much she want to see him save in PoA and now in GoF is it unlikely or that her doing is suddenly wrong?
She stands by Harry’s side without any signs that she would step away from him even she have to suffer under her friendship to him. She don't turn around even it would be better for her by now. It’s right she go and keep saying Harry should keep going on the second task and the egg. But again she did saw how a real dragon was after Harry in the first task. What do you expect going to happen in task 2?
About SPEW this was only her doing something what was or is her own doing this has nothing to do with her friendship to Harry and Ron. Off course she get it after she hear about Dobby from Harry and saw Winky but still is her idea and Ron’s and not Harry’s. Harry did understand her doing but still though its to much but didn't say something only once if she going to drop it but she didn't. Between SPEW will be very important for book6 and book7 how we saw already in OotP.
OotP: Now Voldemort is back the one who tried to kill Harry four times now. He is more powerful as ever and Hermione’s fear is to lose Harry. That say she has all reason to be annoying and nagging in this book. Because first Harry don't do his homework, how we know its important to do this just because he would learn more about magic and could get better skills. Harry doesn’t do this extra lessons with Snape probably though Hermione seems to get that this mind reading goes both ways. More fears to lose Harry. Than as Harry want to speak with Sirius in a time where DD is away and Harry could get easily expelled if Umbridge get him and that’s quiet easy to happen because Hermione didn't know what the Weasley gonna do.
By the way Harry think she annoy him just because she says things aloud which his very mind did already think about and what he did ignore only a nagging Hermione who is sitting on his side he can't ignore forever and especially not if she at least get him. But he couldn't stop it anymore. Again her doing wasn't mothering it was caring. She wants to see him alive and I don't see anything wrong with it. Not in a friendly way and not in romantically way. Because normal girlfriends act exactly like that.
Placement by Earendil
I don't know if you also write fiction, but I've found that it is implausible and downright impossible to prove with canon to say that an author is not intentionally putting in clues. The simple reason for this is that it must be assumed that everything the author writes is for a reason. I can only speak from my own experience, but when I write I look at every single scene from different angles to understand how it will be interpreted by my readers. JKR, a far more experienced author than myself, is careful enough to understand the ramifications of each scene in relation to the scheme of the series, so it is impossible to prove that she is indeed "going with the flow" as opposed to carefully planting clues. Canon tells us that she is indeed placing clues for us even in the littlest things like placement of position or a slight touch here and there--because we have seen some of her other tiny clues come into fruition. It could have been ascribed to "going with the flow" when she dropped the name Sirius Black in SS/PS or when she had fake Moody mutter that if there was one thing he hated it was a Death Eater who walked free--but we know that even the slightest mention of a name or a remark will usually go somewhere; even if it's only to reveal something as relatively insignificant as a character trait.
It can easily be said that the author does or does not intend something, but it is impossible to prove. What can be proved is that any author will rarely, if ever, mention a name or a specific event unless it will contribute to the general scheme of the story. Example: The DoM, which AK also used.
Harry needs to pass a message onto the rest of the group by subtly catching the attention of one of the other five kids. He reaches around with his foot--And here is where an author will stop and think: Who should Harry find to pass on the message? What will it say about the tone of the scene as well as the connection between characters if I put so-and-so's foot in the right place at the right time?
It's a tiny thing, but I am positive that it makes a difference in terms of development of both the scene and the characters. Often you will find the author who thinks, "I've given this character too much time already--I can always put someone into this tiny little instance to give them more screen time". If that's the case, why Hermione? Was Hermione the first name that popped into JKR's head? Maybe. But we already know that JK is careful; she looks twice at every paragraph she writes and examines it from every angle, the way most authors do.
So, why Hermione? AK already answered why it was Hermione Harry had to pull away from the falling shelves because it was Hermione whose position he already knew--but why did this character have to be Hermione at all? If this were such a tiny and insignificant scene, it would have been just as easy for JK to write Ginny into that role of the owner of that foot he found and the person he drags away from the shelves. Nothing would have changed in the fundamental scheme of the story itself.
It would be giving JKR less credit than she deserves to assume that anything she writes is unintentional. We have seen in canon that even the smallest things will go somewhere--not necessarily to have some deep and profound meaning to the eventual plot twist, but even something so small as to explain some obscure mystery in the future. JKR is a careful and meticulous author, and instead of asking ourselves only why such-and-such happens in context, we also need to ask why the author chose to make such-and-such happen in the way that she did. She can do anything she wants to with the text, and yet she made the conscious decision to write Harry and Hermione together in certain scenes, with or without Ron, showcasing their teamwork and rapport. Do we know if this was intentional? No. But the canon indicates that similar occasions where she is seemingly "going with the flow" have foreshadowed and led up to certain significant events.
Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Well, there's a tiny problem- if they were indeed together in small scenes, then this would be classified as "off the stage", as Harry's point of view is the view that the books are written from, and he can't be with Ron and Hermione if they are specifically isolated from him at JKR's wish (if she wanted to give us some clues, and placed them together). Therefore, even if JKR has deliberately placed Ron and Hermione under the placement theory, this is declared void by people saying that it’s off the stage, and it leaves too much to speculation.
Not necessarily at all. If it was the author's wish to have Hermione go with Ron when the unwitting split was made at the DoM, it would have been all too easy for the reader to see what was happening between them and remain in Harry's perspective. We already saw some of what happened with Ron, Luna, and Ginny when the six of them met up again in the corridor, and even if it happened off the stage we would still find out about it through a third person description to Harry. The off-the-stage argument only applies to the instances in which other shippers claim that R/Hr is being developed in the scenes that we never hear about, such as the summer vacation at Grimmauld Place and the Prefect duties. If JKR had wanted to show Harry isolating himself from the trio and pursuing his own destiny, if you will, she could have taken the very easy opportunity to have Ron and Hermione working together, apart from Harry, in the DoM. Not only would the readers be aware of Ron and Hermione being together in this tense and high-anxiety situation, we would undoubtedly hear some of what happened when their group separated, the way we heard from Luna, except with Hermione in their group instead of Ginny. Again, it's the question of the author's intentions, and her application to the text.
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So, if you're going to dismiss the entire R/Hr placement together that is off the stage, I will dismiss all H/Hr placement together, even if it is on the stage.
This is where you've lost me. Everyone has acknowledged that Ron and Hermione are together off-stage without Harry. What cannot be proven is that anything romantic is happening in said off-stage scenes, because it doesn't occur in canon. How can the sequences that show Harry and Hermione deliberately being placed together, without any reasonable motive such as prefect duties or waiting around for the third part of their trio, be dismissed? And especially since they're occurring on-stage, and can be logically disputed as being either adequate shipping evidence or not?
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It is enough that we are informed of Ron and Hermione's placement together, and that there is more placement than previous books.
And we don't need to be "informed" of Harry and Hermione's placement together, or that there is more placement than previous books--because we see it happening right in front of us. There is no off-stage problem, as the author has made the decision to put the two of them together on more than one occasion throughout the entire series. If JKR has consciously chosen to show Hermione and Harry being alone in important situations, even when there is an alternative to putting Hermione in the scene that wouldn't significantly alter the text, we must assume that there is some logical reason.
I may also add that it is extremely easy for an author to describe things that are happening between two characters--especially important ones--off stage. If the readers needed to know about it, JKR would intentionally show evidence of Ron and Hermione's progressively maturing relationship through Harry's eyes. This is not a difficult technique to use, and I have complete faith in Rowling's ability to do so.
To summarize, we can only effectively debate what is in canon--including the fact that things are happening off-stage, rather than the actual content of those off-stage scenes. The simple reason for this is that you will rarely find an author who will throw in a name or an event unnecessarily without carefully considering the various interpretations and effects of such a mention, especially when there are other options that wouldn't adulterate the central meaning and would convey a point of future plotlines more effectively.
Are Harry and Ginny suited by Hope1272
On the subject of Harry and Ginny, well I'm against them and I do credit her dating history as one of the reasons, but not in the one you think. I feel like I really got to know Ginny first hand in this book. We had always heard from the twins about how formidable Ginny could be and we got a good sense of that. What struck me is the reason Ginny and Michael Corner break up. She dumps him because he's upset that she didn't compromise her competitive streak just to suit him. She wasn't willing to play second best just because it made him feel easier about himself. This is why I don't see a H/G pairing, or one that lasts very long before H/Hr finally come about. Ginny will not play second best to the prominent place Hermione has in Harry's life. She's too smart and too self-assured to be the crying and passive aggressive emotional trainwreck Cho was when Harry invariably goes to Hermione for advice or help. She's just going to walk away and not look back. Based on what I've learned in OotP, I'm ruling out Ginny for Harry, not based on her perceived weaknesses, but on her strengths.
But there are weaknesses. One of the glaring ones is that Ginny seems to be too giving when she should be less and less giving when she should be more. For example, the library talk. Considering the amount of trouble that is looming over them, with Harry's feud with Umbridge and the DA itself, Ginny gives over her immediate assistance/approval to Harry's desire to talk to Sirius. She doesn't know why Harry is willing to put everyone at risk, she simply says O.K. But in the MoM, she takes the time to quibble because Harry tells her to move on from the glass jar. Okay, Harry's been a prat in the book and yes; there are times that he needs to have someone bristle at his behaviour. But this isn't one of them. Same with the discussion at Christmas. Harry is stressed at the thought of being Voldemort's weapon and we have Ginny who calls Harry stupid and seems miffed that Harry forgot she was possessed by Voldemort's spirit. I admire her pluck, just not her timing.
I'm a H/Hr because I feel that Hermione gives Harry what he needs and not what he wants just because he wants it. I don't doubt that Harry and Ginny will be friends, very good ones, but their temperaments clash more times than not and in places where they are not needed. I'm really hoping for G/N simply because I think Ginny's outgoing nature would be matched well with Neville's up and coming strong but silent type.
We didn't see much of Ginny and Michael's relationship because, quite frankly, she doesn't figure much into Harry's mind and the narrative is from his point of view. My point for that is that it took Hermione to get Harry to even think about the fact that Ginny was talking to him. At this point, Ginny and her relationships aren't paramount to the story. For all we know, she might have tried out for Seeker because of her admiration of Harry, but it also may have been because she was genuinely interested in the position. If put to it, if Harry tried out against Ginny or anyone for that matter, he would probably win because of his longer experience and natural talent so I really don't Ginny is the thing that will save his position. Ginny and Hermione might be best friends, but when they are heading out for the MoM, Hermione didn't see her as a possibility to go. Now maybe that was due to Harry's first assessment, maybe it's due to Ginny being Ron's baby sister, but Hermione didn't automatically include her best friend either in the first goes around. Which I noticed some posters on this forum took as a very telling scene and I guess that goes into my theory about Ginny having to play second best to Hermione. There's an established dynamic between the trios and although there were additions made in this last caper, the trio do go to each other first. Even when Harry and Ron have been on the outs, they still go to Hermione or when one is on the outs with Hermione, they turn to the other. For five years it has been this way and if the girlfriend in question is Ginny, the little sister who has seen how this works, the natural inclination may be to continue as they always have on the assumption that Ginny would accept it.
The post-kiss scene by Sirius83
This will look at the reactions of Hermione and Ron to Harry being kissed by Cho. I will look at their descriptions, break down what they mean and show what JKR is more than likely trying to tell us. This takes place in Chapter 21: The Eye of the Snake. All emphasis is mine.
Harry enters the common room and sinks into a chair. Ron and Hermione ask him what's wrong. When Harry decides not to say anything, Hermione realises something must have happened with Cho. Now while she was happy enough for Harry before, what happened...she wasn't ready for this at all? To me, this is where Hermione's feelings become apparent to herself.
"Is it Cho?" she asked in a businesslike way. "Did she corner you after the meeting?"
Businesslike suggests she is hiding her emotions. It suggests she is trying to mask her feelings from others and get to the point. Corner is also a very interesting way of putting it, as though it was something she did not want to happen. Harry nods a yes.
"Did you kiss?" asked Hermione briskly.
Briskly suggests she is saying this quickly and without happiness, but with some shock. Say it aloud, briskly. "Did you kiss?"
Harry looked from Ron's expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermione's slight frown, and nodded.
Why is Hermione frowning? She has known Harry wanted to do this, but now that he has, she is unhappy about it. This change from businesslike to briskly to frowning is but the start of a cascade of emotions we see from Hermione in this scene. It seems as though at this point, she is upset that Harry has kissed Cho.
Ron made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal of laughter that made several timid-looking second years over beside the window jump. A reluctant grin spread over Harry's face as he watched Ron rolling around on the hearthrug. Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter.
First, Ron. Okay, yeah, he's happy. He's being a typical guy and all that, but isn't he overdoing it somewhat? It seems as though something else is occurring to him. Hermione likes Harry, but Harry's taken. She's free. There is a bit later that supports that Ron thinks Harry and Hermione have something stewing between them. Now, Hermione. Why the deep disgust? That's pretty harsh for some enthusiasm. It's almost as though she's thinking "Ron, this isn't funny!!!" and then she turns to her letter, as if trying to forget the kiss has just happened. This from the girl who will usually drop anything to talk to Harry about something that's happened to him.
"Of course you're not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.
"How do you know?" said Ron in a sharp voice.
"Because Cho spends half her time crying these days," said Hermione vaguely. "She does it at mealtimes, in the loos, all over the place."
This happens when Harry wonders if he's a bad kisser. First, interesting answer from Hermione - absently at that. It's as though she was wondering what if she had been the one he kissed. Note also the absence of Hermione from the discussion for a bit. Hermione, who was supposed to be happy for Harry! She's thinking about something, and I don't think it's the letter. Now we have Ron in the sharp voice. This supports that he thinks something is going on between Harry and Hermione. He doesn't think it ludicrous that Hermione knows how well Harry kisses. Hermione answers in a vague voice, suggesting she's still not altogether there, and doesn't even answer his question fully. She then slaps Ron with an insult - the insensitive wart bit, when Ron says some kissing would cheer her up. I think she's getting peeved at Ron because he's taking it so lightly and she's suffering now. Why is she feeling this way? Didn't she decide Harry was just a close friend?
At this point, Hermione launches into a very long explanation about Cho that leaves a stunned silence at the end of it. What was with that? If you look at her words, it is very likely she is also talking about herself! Compare what I’m saying here with what Hermione says in the passage - sorry for not typing it out, it's rather long. Se's feeling very sad, because Harry's in mortal danger, not to mention Harry's interested in a girl totally unlike her. She's confused because she liked Krum and now she likes Harry. She feels guilty because she's still in contact with Krum and it is insulting to him. She's worried about what people, especially their best friend Ron, would say if she starts going out with Harry. She can't figure out her feelings because she's also very close friends with Harry, and their other best friend likes her, so it's painful. Oh, and she's afraid she's going to get chucked out of school for starting the entire D.A. thing.
Does that make sense? Sounds a lot like what she's saying about Cho doesn't it? Following this, Ron says nobody can feel all of that. She insults him, with a nasty voice at that and picks up her quill again. That sounds a lot like "How can you say that?! I'm feeling like that right now!"
"You just had to be nice to her," said Hermione, looking up anxiously. "You were, weren't you?"
Sounds like she's hoping Harry was just being nice to Cho and it didn't really mean anything. Man, she's changing emotions faster than a pit crew sees to a racecar. Anyway, it sounds like she's hoping the kiss really didn’t mean anything. She then tries not to roll her eyes at Harry; he's not very good at comforting girls. Now here's where it gets interesting again.
"Well, I suppose it could have been worse," she said. "Are you going to see her again?"
"I'll have to, won't I?" said Harry. "We've got D.A. meetings haven't we?"
"You know what I mean," said Hermione impatiently.
Sounds like she's continuing on from before. She hopes it didn't mean anything and he's not going to date her. When he doesn't get it, she becomes impatient. I thought she was patient with Harry? She then becomes distant as she says there'll be plenty of opportunities to ask her. She's definitely not pleased and she's zoning out again. Emotionally detached from the conversation. When she tells Ron Harry's liked Cho for ages, she's vague. She's definitely not there anymore. After this, she only replies abruptly who she's writing to, we have a 20 minute silence (how's that for uncomfortable?) and then she goes to bed with a quick. "Well, 'night."
It's pretty clear to me that Hermione was not at all pleased with Harry kissing Cho. Something hit her when she figured out what happened, and it affected her for the rest of this conversation, where she not once even smiled a little for Harry. It seems as though this is where she realised she likes Harry as more than just a friend and shows her displeasure at his being kissed by another girl.
The post-kiss scene by Mad Eye Mike
This is not a fanfic nor a scene I created and though it might seem confusing at first, trust me, it’ll all make sense at the end.
The Scene
By Mad Eye Mike
Ron didn’t quite know how to set about telling them, and still wasn’t sure whether he wanted to. Just as he had decided not to say anything, Hermione took matters out of his hands.
“Is it Fleur?” she asked in a businesslike way. “Did she corner you after the meeting?”
Numbly surprised, Ron nodded. Harry sniggered, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye.
“So-er-what did she want?” he asked in a mock casual voice.
“She-" Ron began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried again. “She-er-“
“Did you kiss?” asked Hermione briskly.
Harry sat up so fast that he sent his ink bottle flying all over the rug. Disregarding this completely he stared avidly at Ron.
“Well?” he demanded.
Ron looked from Harry’s expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermione’s slight frown, and nodded.
“HA!”
Harry made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal of laughter that made several timid looking second years over beside the window jump. A reluctant grin spread over Ron’s face as he watched Harry rolling around on the hearthrug. Hermione gave Harry a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter.
“Well?” Harry said finally, looking up at Ron. “How was it?”
Ron considered for a moment.
“Wet,” he said truthfully.
Harry made a noise that might have indicated jubilation or disgust, it was hard to tell.
“Because she was crying,” Ron continued heavily.
“Oh,” said Harry, his smile fading slightly. “Are you that bad at kissing?”
“Dunno,” said Ron, who hadn’t considered this and immediately felt, rather worried. “Maybe I am.”
“Of course you’re not,” said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.
“How do you know?” said Harry in a sharp voice.
“Because Fleur spends half her time crying these days,” said Hermione vaguely. “She does it at mealtimes, in the loos, all over the place.”
“You’d think a little bit of kissing would cheer her up,” said Harry, grinning.
“Harry” ,said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the points of her quill into her ink pot, “you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.”
“What’s that suppose to mean?” said Harry indignantly. “What sort of person cries while someone’s kissing them?”
“Yeah,” said Ron, slightly desperately, “who does?”
Hermione looked at the pair of them with an almost pitying expression on her face.
*Hermione’s long speech about Fleur’s feelings goes here. Then...*
A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Harry said, “One person can’t feel all that at once, they’d explode.”
“Just because you’ve got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn’t mean we all have,” said Hermione nastily, picking up her quill again.
“She was the one who started it,” said Ron. I wouldn’t’ve-she just sort of came at me-and the next thing she’s crying all over me-I didn’t know what to do-“
“Don’t blame you, mate” said Harry, looking alarmed at the very thought.
“You just had to be nice to her,” said Hermione, looking up anxiously. “You were, weren’t you?”
“Well,” said Ron, an unpleasant heat creeping up his face, “I sort of-patted her on the back a bit.”
Hermione looked as though she was restraining herself from rolling her eyes with extreme difficulty.
“Well, I suppose it could have been worse,” she said. “Are you going to see her again?”
“I’ll have to, won’t I?” said Ron. “We’ve got D.A. meetings, haven’t we?”
“You know what I mean,” said Hermione impatiently.
*Then later…*
“Oh well,” said Hermione distantly, buried in her letter once more, “you’ll have plenty of opportunities to ask her….”
Before I explain what it is you just read (for those of you who haven’t figured it out), I’d like you to answer the following question as honestly as you can regardless of whom you ship. In the scene above, does it seems like Hermione is unpleased with Ron kissing Fleur? Yes or No?
Okay, now for those of you who are still confused by what you just read, it’s the post kiss scene from OotP with two changes - I switched Harry and Ron’s places and changed Cho’s name to Fleur. However, as you can see by the text, nothing else was altered. I left everything else in that scene precisely as it was written by JKR. I didn’t add or omit words; I didn’t substitute one word for another nor did I change the sentence structure. I simply switched Harry/Ron and inserted Fleur for Cho. Want proof? The original scene can be found here:
Order of the Phoenix: Chapter 21: The Eye Of The Snake: Pg 457-460: Scholastic
If you answered no to the question above, then I’d like to take this time to examine some of the words used to describe Hermione in that scene. Let's assume JKR knows exactly what words she's using, why she's using them and what they’ll mean in the context of that scene. Here's how JKR chose to have Hermione react to the news that Harry kissed Cho.
1. Businesslike:
: Practical; unemotional:
2. Briskly:
: sharp in tone or manner (note that in the original scene, when Ron asked Hermione how she knew Harry wasn't a bad kisser, he asked her sharply).
3. Frown:
: to show displeasure with or disapproval of especially by facial expression
: to bring your eyebrows together so that there are lines on your face above your eyes to show that you are annoyed or worried
4. Vaguely:
: describes someone who is not able to think clearly, or who, sometimes as a way of hiding what they really think, does not express their opinions clearly
5. Distantly:
: reserved or aloof in personal relationship: COLD
6. Impatiently:
: not patient : restless or short of temper especially under irritation, delay, or opposition
Hmm, now those are some very interesting words used to describe Hermione's reaction in that scene aren't they? I mean, what kind of platonic friend acts like that upon hearing their best friend finally kissed someone they were crushing on? Then there’s this line:
“You just had to be nice to her,” said Hermione, looking up anxiously. “You were, weren’t you?”
That sounds so desperate on Hermione’s part. It’s as if she's trying to convince herself even though she knew Harry liked Cho, it would never go that far. It's possible in Hermione eyes, she envisioned Cho being to Harry what Fleur was to Ron - unattainable. Now however, Hermione’s been hit with a hard truth, Cho and Harry are a very real possibility and she's not pleased about that development at all - not to this extent. Yeah, she spent some time with Krum last year, but she never kissed him. It was just two people talking and getting to know each other, but kissing, this is serious. I mean just look at the definition of Anxiously:
7. Anxiously:
: characterized by extreme uneasiness of mind or brooding fear about some contingency : WORRIED
: characterized by, resulting from, or causing anxiety : WORRYING
: ardently or earnestly wishing
Looking at what Hermione said, why would she be afraid, worried and uneasy about Harry's answer to her question? Is she nervous Harry will say he really does like Cho? And then she reiterates the question again for her own self-assurance when she says, "You were, weren't you?". She needs Harry to confirm the kiss was nothing. You can almost hear Hermione thinking to herself saying:
"It's not a big deal as Harry was simply playing the 'hero' again saving Cho from her hurt feelings and providing comfort. It's nothing more than that, right Harry?"
Also take notice how Hermione said “Did she corner you after the meeting?” That was a very interesting way for Hermione to phrase that question wasn’t it? Almost makes it sound like Harry was trying to get away from Cho. Couldn’t Hermione have said ”Did you and her talk after the meeting?” JKR doesn’t just write something senselessly, it always has a meaning behind it.
Let's examine some more:
Hermione's attitude in the post kiss scene as described by the text is quite clear - she was jealous of hearing Harry kissed Cho. Some say she had to be the way she was because Harry was tight-lipped and she was just trying to get answers out of him. That is false and it's in the text. Ron and Hermione did not have to ask Harry question after question before he started opening up - that would've been different. But that's not what happened at all. Harry began talking and the more he revealed, the more Hermione's mood changed very fast and very drastic.
During that conversation, there was no reason for Hermione to go from Businesslike to Brisk to Frowning to Vague to Anxious to Impatient and then finally, to Distant towards Harry.None. All of those emotions are directed towards Harry as the only two she directs towards Ron are ‘disgust’ and ‘nasty’ when Ron's being his usual self. You also have to take into context the exact point in the discussion when Hermione’s behaviour begins to swing.
1. She was businesslike because Harry was not talking. Yes, at the very beginning when Harry sat down, he was indeed quiet; but once he admitted to kissing Cho, he began talking like he normally does. People usually adopt a businesslike manner when they’re trying to keep their emotions in check. The question now becomes, exactly what feelings was Hermione trying to keep under control?
2. Then Hermione asked Harry briskly if he kissed Cho? Why did she change her attitude? Hermione could've kept her unemotional, practical manner and had Harry answer her question don’t you think? Of course she could have, but she was a little angry there and she sharply asked Harry if he kissed Cho. There was no reason to take that tone with Harry, yet she did. Just like there's no reason for Ron to sharply question Hermione when asking about her letters to Krum.
Now take notice - Hermione didn’t ask Harry something much more reasonable like "Did you tell Cho how you feel about her?" or "Did Cho tell you she likes you?" No. The moment Hermione learns Harry was late because of Cho, the first question out of Hermione's mouth was "Did you kiss?" Very interesting. Also for those of you who are thinking the word ‘briskly’ here implied a speedy or energetic manner, think again. How ridiculous would it be for Hermione to go from unemotional to energetic then back down to frowning (which is next)? Has Hermione ever been presented as a girl whose emotions go up and down like that within seconds? No she has not.
3. When Harry didn’t reply with a quick 'No', Hermione slightly frowned. Usually when a reply to a question is negative, a person will answer quickly. Harry didn’t and Hermione probably already knew the answer was yes. Thus she’s not pleased. Plus, what kind of platonic friend frowns at the idea his or her best platonic friend just kissed their long time crush? Btw, another way of saying frown is scowl (Look up Scowl in the Oxford Dictionary if you don't believe me).
4. Then there was Hermione's "Of course you're not" remark to Harry when he questioned whether or not he was a bad kisser. How in the bloody hell does Hermione know Harry's not a bad kisser? Am I saying anything happened off page? No I am not, but it's a very interesting answer - "Of course you're not." Notice how Hermione didn’t say something more appropriate like "I doubt it Harry" or "I don't think that's why Cho was crying". Also take notice again - Hermione never answered Ron's question as to how she knew Harry wasn't a bad kisser. All she did was explain why Cho was crying which makes why she didn’t say “I don’t think that’s why Cho was crying” all the more suspicious.
5. When Hermione started talking about Cho, she became very vague. Now vague can have lots of meanings, but the one constant in its definition is a lack of 'Clarity'. Since when does Hermione have trouble expressing herself clearly about anything? She certainly wasn't vague a few seconds later when she gave that long explanation about what Cho was feeling and going through.
6. Next Hermione gets Anxious when she basically told Harry why he kissed Cho. Now here's something interesting. Even though Hermione knew Harry liked Cho, she tells him the reason he kissed Cho wasn't because he liked her, but rather because he was just trying to be nice to her. Really? Wow Hermione, that's a pretty amazing gift you have to tell a boy why he was kissing a girl he's liked for so long. Here it is:
“You just had to be nice to her,” said Hermione, looking up anxiously. “You were, weren’t you?”
When Hermione says “You were, weren’t you?”, she's asking Harry to reaffirm to her the kiss was nothing. Look at that sentence carefully. First she tells Harry why he kissed Cho, then she asked him to confirm it. Why? If Hermione is Harry's platonic friend, why not say something like "Way to go Harry! You finally let Cho know how you feel about her" or something along those lines? Why was Hermione so tense during this period? There wasn’t any reason to be. Her platonic friend had just kissed his long-time crush, why wasn't she happy for him like Ron was? That was a time for warmth and celebration and yet Hermione was very stern. That was unusual behaviour from Hermione because she always gushes over anything Harry achieves.
7. Now that Hermione has found out Harry kissed Cho; she wanted to know if Harry was going to see her again. Now that's a stupid question when you consider Hermione already knew Harry liked Cho. Of course he was going to see her again, so why would did Hermione ask such a thing? Then when Harry replied with an answer which made it seem as if he had no other choice, Hermione snapped at him that he knew very well what she was talking about. Right there, Hermione lost her patience. Why was she impatient? To be honest, none of this is really any of her business anyway.
If Harry didn’t want to give details on whether or not he'd be seeing Cho again, that's his business. In GoF, Hermione wasn't too forthcoming with answers to Ron when he asked about her and Krum so why is Hermione so impatient with Harry and his answers about Cho? Hermione knows that a persons private business is just that. This scene is a parallel to one earlier in the book when Hermione said she was allowed to have a pen pal and Ron snapped that Krum wanted to be more than a pal. Ron grew impatient with Hermione avoiding his answers and Hermione grew impatient with Harry for seemingly avoiding hers.
8. Finally, after all these emotions have surfaced, Hermione becomes Distant and goes right back to her letter. Usually when a person acts like that, it's because they're trying to emotionally distance themselves from what's going on. Hermione is distant to Harry at the end? Why? He's just revealed that he kissed his long time crush, why isn't Hermione at least a little happy for him? Hermione never even offers the slightest bit of congrats for Harry for at least moving forward in his relationship with Cho. Hermione - who is always so supportive of anything Harry achieves - offers no words of encouragement or anything. All she says is “you’ll have plenty of opportunities to ask her….”, and she says that distantly, that's it.
In GoF and OotP, Ron's attitude was sharp and impatient towards Hermione when she didn’t give him a straight answer regarding her relationship with Krum. It was interesting to see the parallel of Hermione getting brisk and impatient with Harry when he didn’t give her a straight answer regarding his status with Cho. Now ask yourself, are these the actions of a platonic best friend, mother or sister figure? Or are these the actions of a girl who likes a boy more than a friend?
Remember, Hermione has always had strong positive reactions to anything Harry has achieved - no matter how small it was. So why didn't she display the slightest bit of happiness for him when he admitted to kissing Cho? The post kiss scene didn’t have Hermione display one ounce of gladness for Harry, not one. Not one word of encouragement. Not one supportive comment like "Oh Harry I'm so happy for you!". Not even something simple like a smile or any type of facial expression that showed joy. Read that scene again carefully and see that Hermione is never described as looking or being pleased in any way - Ron is, but not Hermione.
Now ask yourself, what kind of friend with strictly non-romantic feelings acts like that?
*All definitions courtesy of the Oxford Dictionary*
Hermione shows more warmth for Harry by Lleyki
Okay so apparently Hermione shows more warmth and concern for Ron than Harry. Uh-huh. I'm going to show by using examples from ALL the books why I have YET to see this. I'm doing this by memory; so if I've missed anything my fellow shipmates are free to add to it.
PS/SS
I think the best place to start is the ending when they all go to save the stone. Yes I know many R/Hr shippers are rolling their eyes right now, thinking "oh great she's going to talk about Harry and Hermione leaving Ron behind" and you'll be absolutely right. I know many R/Hr shippers will also say that Hermione had to follow Harry for plot reasons, because he would not have been able to get past the Potions test without her. Fair enough. What I want to emphasize though is Hermione's two reactions to Ron and Harry. When Ron fell she screamed (like any normal 11yr old would). However she NEVER lost her composure and waited for Harry's next move and simply followed him. She only allowed for a mere second of asking Harry if he was sure Ron was okay. (Btw, as much as I love Harry and Hermione, that was a little cold to not even check the boy's pulse. Oh well.) Now let's consider Hermione's reaction when she has to leave Harry. She DID NOT want to go, she simply had NO choice. Before someone says that wasn't stated in the book, look at Harry's conversation when he's telling Hermione to leave. He has to interrupt what he's saying to say "No-listen". Now basic English would show that if Hermione had been agreeing with him this statement would make no sense. She didn't want to go and after he convinces her to leave, she flings herself into his arms and proceeds to tell him how great he is and even then he has to forcibly tell her to leave. Now someone can argue that Harry was about to face his death but that doesn't work because there was no way the two of them were sure that Ron hadn't just faced his. Yet RON is the one she cares for and shows more warmth for? The boy who couldn't even get a simple pulse-check? Okay whatever floats your boat.
Now let's flash forward to the hospital scene. Hermione has to literally restrain herself from flying onto Harry AGAIN. Now while we didn't see Hermione's reaction after she left Harry, by her accounts she seemed more than a little irritated with the fact that it wasn't exactly easy to revive Ron. The fact is the above scene where they went to save the stone was a very good opportunity to show the great future romance that would be Ron and Hermione. It DID NOT. Both boys were about to face very dangerous, possibly life-threatening situations and we saw Hermione's reaction to both and I failed to see more concern for Ron.
COS
Hermione's letter to Ron. Now let's be honest here. Hermione had good reasons to be as frantic as she was. They hadn't heard anything from Harry all summer. However there was just WAY too much pre-occupation with Harry. She references Ron and them doing anything illegal, not because she is so concerned for them but simply that it would get Harry in trouble too. Hermione's anxiety and stress over Harry is practically screaming off her letter.
I see someone mentioned about the howler and Hermione's reaction. I agree completely. Okay, taking that flying car was pretty dumb; but the boy had just been embarrassed in front of the WHOLE school; a little sympathy much? Yet this is the boy this girl has so many strong feelings for. Uh-huh.
Okay the ending of the book. Everything is back to normal and everything is okay. Hermione runs to Harry screaming "you did it, you did it". Considering just the year before they'd all help to rescue the stone with him, it is interesting that she just assumed he figured it all out on his own. Also we see NO interaction between Ron and Hermione here. You would think a simple hug could have been shared considering that Hermione had been petrified and it was Ron's sister that had been taken. I mean this is the boy she likes and he's just been through quite an ordeal, yet we don't even see her asking "are you okay." Again nothing on Hermione's part. Yet she has more warmth and concern for Ron than Harry. Okay.
P O A
Ah my favourite scenes. First let us look at Hermione's reaction when Harry fell off his broomstick. Her eyes were bloodshot and the first words we hear from her aren't even words but a squeak. The girl was clearly shaken up and this was well after she knew Harry was fine. Now let's look at when Ron was attacked by Sirius. Hermione did not say ONE word to Ron. This is one of your BEST FRIENDS and he's just been attacked by a notoriously dangerous criminal. You can't even muster up a simple "are you okay, Ron?" Now I'm sorry but this does not show me warmth or concern here. Yes we find out later from Hagrid that apparently she cried about it but we also know from Hagrid that Hermione was crying about EVERYTHING. Her work load, the fight over the Firebolt, the fight with Ron about Scabbers, etc. My point is, here's the boy you have these great feelings for and he's just been attacked and pride over not speaking to him was more important and this is the supposed warm, beautiful romance? Right.
When Ron is dragged into the Whomping Willow by Sirius; Harry has to convince Hermione that there's no time to go for help. She is hesitant, scared and only follows when she has no choice and Harry was going to go with or without her. Now let's compare this to when Harry runs into the Forbidden Forest to rescue Sirius. Hermione never hesitates and immediately goes chasing after Harry. Once again they're off and leaving poor injured Ron to fend for himself. I would like to also point out that Hermione once again never even checked on Ron. She stood behind Harry and asked HIM what Pettigrew had done to Ron. Yeah I'm feeling the love for Ron by Hermione here.
G O F
Okay Hermione's behaviour during Ron and Harry's fight. She DID NOT take sides (smart girl). She spent according to the text, time trying to get both of them to bend. However most of the time that we see of her, she is with Harry, so I'm REALLY confused as to the point in which she was being more considerate to Ron and showing him more warmth. Hermione was the thing that kept Harry mildly sane during this time. She provided support, friendship, intelligence for his task, loyalty, etc. I failed to see when and how Hermione was being more concerned for Ron when she was being everything to Harry at this point. One wonders where she would have gotten all the time.
Along with this there are other moments of Hermione's warmth towards Harry. I'll refer to her reaction after the Lake Task. Again, like I've said before, Hermione has a way of acting like Harry has just accomplished the MOST amazing feats. The girl's joy and pride over Harry is absolutely amazing. Then there's the moment when she comes to show him Dobby. The girl ran up SIX flights of stairs and didn't lose a bit of her excitement. She acted like Christmas had come early and was TOO excited to even tell Harry what she had to show him. All that because Dobby was at Hogwarts. That to me is warmth, and those are the things I see as beautiful.
Now let's look at Hermione's reaction to Ron's ONE major gripe in the book; that of course of him poor. When Ron says he hates being poor, Hermione tries to make a joke but it's lack-luster and she looks to Harry who looks back as helplessly as her. The scene is awkward and uncomfortable. I see very little comfort for Ron on Hermione's part here.
O O T P
Okay the first time Hermione sees Harry, she hugs him. Not too surprising. She holds on to him for awhile, again that wasn't that surprising. However, Hermione is referred to as breathless in this scene. Wow. All that from seeing Harry? I mean it had only been a month and they knew he was fine since they were talking to him all the time; yet the girl is so excited she is literally out of breath, giving him an earth shattering hug. One wonders what she'd do if she was his girlfriend.
Okay the famous prefect scene. All right let's be fair to Hermione. No one expected Ron to be a prefect, not even his own family (probably cause he didn't deserve it but I digress) so we won't make SUCH a big deal about her initial shock. However it's her reaction following her initial shock that kills this for Ron. You know the entire scene could have taken a whole different feel if JK had written it slightly differently. For example, consider that after Harry tells Hermione it's Ron's badge, not his and she says "Ron?" in that questioning tone; that the scene was written with her then saying "Oh my god, Ron! I'm so happy for you." See how automatically the whole feel of the scene changes. Yes we'd have Hermione initially surprised but that would be immediately followed by her obvious joy and pride. That is NOT what JK showed us. After Hermione's initial surprise she compounds the embarrassment by asking Harry if he was sure then trying to make it up by saying how Ron had done MANY things for the school but couldn't seem to remember ANY of those many things herself. Plain and simple Hermione in that scene showed emotions of shock, disappointment and embarrassment. Period, and none of it was showing romantic anything for Ron.
The Christmas presents. Again, a few word changes and JK could have changed the entire feel of the scene if she is SO promoting R/Hr like so many of those shippers believe. She DID NOT. Hermione expressed extreme pleasure by Harry's gift and judging by her use of "unusual" all I got was confusion for Ron's gift or hate and her tactfully trying not to say it. Btw, for all the persons who have said how Ron understands Hermione so much and pays so much attention to her; why then would he give her perfume of ALL things? What did he just completely miss the way the girl's face literally lit up when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement? She's a book-worm, it's what she loves. Some R/Hr shippers can argue all they want of how Harry didn't put much thought into the gift because it's so obvious that she'd like it but the fact is he got it right and Ron didn't. Buying presents isn't about you the buyer; but the person you're giving the gift to. It's knowing what THAT person would like, not what would make you look good. The fact is no matter how much time Harry did or did not spend on that gift (of which we'll never know) the truth is he knew who Hermione was well enough to get her the perfect gift. Kind of like Hermione getting him the perfect gift in POA. Hmm, interesting, for two people who don't understand each other AT ALL.
THE QUIDDITCH MATCHES
Let's look at Hermione's reactions to Harry's wins. The girl's excitement again is literally infectious. Again one wonders what she'd do if she actually was his girlfriend. Now let's keep in mind that again this is a sport that she's not even THAT crazy about. Btw, does anyone else find it odd that apparently Quidditch became so silly to Hermione once Harry was off the team. Not really saying anything concrete, just thought that was interesting. Now let's look at Hermione's reaction after Ron's dismal first game. She was pretty sweet when she told him to come by the fire. However once Ron starts feeling sorry for himself, we see Harry too irritated with his own problems to be too sensitive and what does Hermione do? She gets up and walks to the window, giving the sense of wanting to avoid the whole conversation. Now okay she likes this boy, she shows more warmth and concern for him; well here's a great in. He's beating down on himself, a simple "Ron it'll get better or you did your best" something to make the poor boy feel better, No matter how much of a lie it would be. Nothing. Instead she goes to the window leaving Ron to his whining and Harry to be generally pissed off at the whole world.
Hermione came to see Harry play when she wasn't even speaking to him and acted like he was silly to even ask her if she had come to see him. So she can come to see him when she's mad at him, for a game she's not even crazy about yet the biggest and scariest moment of Ron's life; she leaves to go see Hagrid's big secret. This might not all be so bad if she had at least asked if it could wait until the game was over or something. No, interestingly HARRY is the one who asks these questions. Hermione NEVER shows ANY hesitation about leaving. Come on, this is the guy you're crazy about and he is dying out there. He can use the support. Yet you LEAVE and for something she doesn't even know what it is. People I'm trying to feel the love here but it ain't happening. These are NOT the actions of a girl who according to some is trying to get this boy to realize his feelings for her and that she has feelings for him. It isn't and I have yet to see the great concern and interest Hermione shows for Ron over Harry. Seriously someone's going to have to direct me to those signs cause I completely missed them.
(Turambar) I also think it's significant that Hermione didn't show much concern or sympathy for Ron when he broke his leg in POA.
When Harry and Hermione first got in to the Shrieking Shack they asked how he was but then it's a full 9 pages before Hermione says anything to Ron. And what does she say? "Shhh" when he tries to say something.
There was plenty of time and some calmer periods within a generally tense situation before they leave the shack for Hermione to check on the leg.
JKR managed to write a couple of paragraphs about Ron being in great pain and Sirius and Lupin showing concern for him.
I mean for those who would use the excuse that they were too caught up in the difficult situation to focus on Ron just a little bit, why is it that Sirius and Lupin can be shown to be worried about Ron's pain and not his future intended?
There's even a bit where Ron overbalances at it's Harry who catches him and sets him on the bed, I mean why not have Hermione catch Ron's arm and help him to sit down? Why not just write in ONE LINE saying something like "'Ron, don't move, you'll just make it worse,' Hermione said anxiously." Even that would seem totally inadequate really.
Harry and Hermione seem to get quite caught up in each other during these intense adventures. Going on together with the adventures in PS and POA after Ron is knocked out as lleyki described. And for instance in POA Hermione reacts extremely intensely towards Lupin because she's worried that the fact she didn't spill the beans about him being a werewolf has put Harry in danger.
Basically IMO JKR has written so many scenes in this way because she wants to show a difference in the level of Hermione's emotions over Harry and Ron. She wanted Hermione's relationship with Harry to be closer than her relationship with Ron. She wanted Hermione to be more interested in Harry than Ron. She wanted the gradual romantic buildup to be between Harry and Hermione. That's the only conclusion I can come to. If she does still plan to go R/Hr she could have saved herself from any likely accusations of it being contrived, clumsy, confusing and a cop-out by writing dozens of scenes in quite different ways to how she has written them.
Personally I think the main shipping mystery has shifted somewhat.
When we were discussing GOF the key mystery was Hermione's feelings. Now I think it is more whether Harry will return them to the same extent.
Hermione's fears for Harry by Flying Phoenix
One of your best friends is Harry Potter. The guy who did survive the dead-curse. Now your 4th year is to end. After three years where you had adventures beyond your imagination and where you see more as once in how much danger he was. By the way he was always closer to you as Ron. Not because you did like him more. No, because he has a muggle background. He is in the same way new in this world like you. You discover this world together with Harry though you know more as him just because you did read all this stuff already but still if you see it real its still something special. That’s why you don't need to proof things for Harry but by Ron because he did grow up in a wizard family. For him isn't everything new, he is used by all this stuff.
That’s the reason you do argue back about simply everything he say to you even its make you mad. You need to proof if not for the people around than for yourself that you indeed a witch. Something what is still after 3 or 4 years is amazing to know for you.
The darkest and most evil wizard of his time is now back he is after your friend. He will end what he begun 14 years ago. Even you did see all this years how often Harry was injured still you have fears to see him hurt still fears it could happen worst. Now is the worst happening this guy who did follow Harry since his very first step in Hogwarts is again powerful. If you imagine that Voldemort was only weak in Harry’s first year but still did nearly kill him or in his second year nearly did it again and now he is probably more powerful as ever.
You have more as just fears. You afraid what could happen next. Its summer and you are at 12 G with Ron your best Friend, too. Than it’s happen you hear dementors did attack Harry. You speechless. If this year start like that? Could it be you lose him? Will he even with you at Hogwarts? You simply don't want imagine how Hogwarts will be without him. You look everything up if there is a chance for him though you know what the ministry did with Harry already.
Weeks went by where Harry comes to at 12 G and stay till end but before is his hearing. Even you know or you speak yourself into it that they just can't expel him you a nervous bag and as you get he is off you feel how much it did bother you this fear.
Back at Hogwarts on off Fudge people are teaching DADA and it’s getting worst everybody think Harry lied as he say the true he get detention. This year is terrible in every sense. You try to keep Harry save more as ever before because you are aware that you really could lose him. There are death eaters; Voldemort out there and want kill him. So you don't want that he risk anything in this year. You even thinking if you learn all this spells from him you could help him or better stay at his side if it comes to Voldemort. You don't want to let him go alone.
Christmas is near and Harry isn't anymore in the Quidditch team but Ron this don't help much. This year get worst as more months go by. Harry has funny dreams. At Christmas you get Harry feels Voldemort’s mood and see what he dos but you get very fast that this could go both ways. You worried probably more as ever in your life. The danger is real. As you get he don't do this lessons probably you tells him again and again he has to do it. Its get worst if not terrible worst Dumbledore is away. You always knew if he is around nothing could harm Harry but now everything can happen. Even Harry could die. You start to nag Harry, to annoy him because of his lessons with Snape because you know how dangerous his dreams are. You even ask Ron out about Harry. As you get that Harry want to speak with Sirius and he had already everything settled you runs crazy about it. You can't believe it that Harry will risk Sirius safety and his own. All you can do is again nagging. You have to stop him if not anybody else dos but He won't hear.
If you thought it couldn't get worst you was wrong Harry had a dream about Sirius and Voldemort. You know directly it can't be. You know its a trap by Voldemort but how will you bring Harry at your side especially he is yelling and screaming at you. With fear and difficult you try your best but even Ron is against you. Its like nobody understand that you don't want to lose him, that Harry bring himself in danger, risk his life. This is just wrong what’s happens. As you see that you lost Ginny and Luna came and you have an idea. Just get check 12G and show Harry that Sirius is perfectly save. That’s the last thing you can do.
Like everything it goes wrong. This year is to end you are in the train and looks back. Everything what you wanted was to keep Harry save and yet everything went wrong. Terrible wrong because Sirius is now dead.
Now about H/Hr is logical or not logical.
For this I need to bring my beloved Hermione-POV into play or rather explain that love isn't easy.
Love is indeed not easy it has problems make you’re live before it make you happy it makes you worst. You all know Romeo and Juliet or just Moulin rouge all this stories about love not a single is about easy love. Its not like love is nice and look for you the person out who is the easiest way to fall for and it’s without any problems. Love is cruel and search for you this person out who bring you to your abyss what brings problems and make you greatly unhappy. That’s why I do think OBHWF is logical and too easy. There you don't have any problems and how AK shows with his 5-steps-theory it is without any problems straight to R/Hr and that is easy love. All what they need to do by this theory is to make a move and everything is all right.
But Love isn't like that. Its not that easy and nice and fluffy not in a serie where everything is difficult, Harry’s live is difficult.
So that say love should be difficult and I will explain why it is logical to fall for Ron and not for Harry.
Its where my Hermione-POV comes in again let say its fact that Hermione likes Harry and know Ron dos like her:
My question is Why? Why it has to be him and not the one who likes me? I'm that stupid to fall for someone who brings me into troubles. Since I know him, since this very day I fear to lose him. Now in that year after Voldemort is back, now where he could die every single moment I start to fall for him. This just illogical but isn't love illogical? It is and that’s a crime. Because if it were like I want it I did feel this for Ron. There is it save; there I don't have to fear to lose him. There I didn't need to break the heart of my best friend. I know it since the Yule ball that he likes me that way but I just don't like him back. First I didn't get it that I felt that way about Harry it was as I was at home and asked myself why I did feel like that through my year and why I did kiss him and it was just like that. I didn't figure it out not yet that I was falling. Than I heard Harry was attacked by dementors I freaked out. I mean this is my best friend we talking about and he was attacked there where he should be save. As he did come to 12G I hugged like I never hugged him before. I was all days in a bad mood but as fast as I did know he was here and save I was happy but as he yelled it was as if I could feel how he did feel through this weeks.
Anyway where was I? Right how I get that I fell for Harry it was after he did get off from the hearing and wasn't expelled. I never felt that relieved in my life not like that and I did know it. I did know the worst thing was happening. Ron feels for me and I for Harry who just feels for Cho. I had a real problem. If I could chose for whom I should feel like that I did chose Ron. All this cost problems, big problems. Now where Voldemort is back now where we need to stand together is it our feeling what could bring us in trouble. I mean if I felt, I really tried, for Ron this way it were everything just fine. No broking hearts, no knowing your feelings are wasting time, no fears to lose the one you like or love could die.
I didn't ask for to fall for him, I didn't even want it. About trying to like Ron it’s the reason why I kissed him on the cheek. I tried to look if I feel the same which I felt as I kissed Harry but it didn't work. (Believe me girls do such stupid things so quiet possible).
Sometimes I'm mad about Ron and call him names as if he could something for it but he can't he didn't chose it. (It was this mad author of this POV)
Now see what I mean it’s difficult that way it’s not easy and its not logical. Logical implied the best and in the sametime easiest way. In that case to fall for Ron, who already likes Hermione, someone who is not the hero. Someone who is not in every year in danger, his very live in danger. Its foolish to fall for the hero because he is the one who die most likely and who is that stupid to fall for someone who won't even live long enough?
But if we argue that Harry is logical to fall for than Ginny did in her first year the right thing she falls for Harry. But to fall for Neville the guy who is not the hero is even illogical. And there we are again love is in general illogical. It doesn’t choose the best person for you. I'm sure Hermione don't want to fall for Harry and Harry don't want to fall for her. But love don't ask what you want its just happens.
That’s another reason why I ship H/Hr because it’s not easy, because it include problems what I know from every story which is about love.
43. The Gateway of Souls (the DOM Arch) and Alchemy by Evaluna
At a glance, I couldn't find the exact sources I was looking for re: the moon/Cancer and the Gateway of Souls, but I found some other relevant stuff. I'll post more on the Gateway of Souls later. Below is just an intro to the subject, not an exhaustive review. Plenty more room for input & comment. We've ONLY just gotten started on this
Cheers!
Gateway and Arch as Liminal Archetypes: Separating Life and Death, Symbolising Transition and Rebirth, Entrance to Holy of Holies
The gate is an entryway into an unknown place, or a place of great significance; it is a threshold, and may connect the living and the dead. They are normally guarded by symbolic animals: the LION, DRAGON, BULL, and DOG are often depicted in conjunction with the gate. In many cultures, passing through a gateway signifies a right of passage. It can be the function of a door between life and death - gates of Heaven. Justice, mercy, praise and righteousness are also related symbols. Combinations with other words: open gate - hospitality, peace; closed - expulsion (Paradise), inhospitality, misery, war; dark - often an entrance to the Underworld; of the sun - between Cancer and Capricorn, tropics; without gate - suffering.
The arch can be construed as the vault of the SKY. Various cultures link the arch to victory; Rome and France (L'arc de Triomphe) being two of the most prominent. Passing through an arch is the symbolic act of rebirth, of leaving the old behind and entering the new. They often mark access into holy places. Adopted by the Muslims as an emblem of faith. It also has a link to heaven, sanctuary and a secret place.
The Zohar
Quote:
[Sefer ha-Zohar. Cremona, Vicenzo Conti, 1559-60
Second edition (editio princeps Mantua 1558) of this pseudepigraphical seminal
work of the Spanish Kabbalah, centred around the second-century R. Simeon bar Jochai but produced by the Castilian kabbalist R. Moses de Leon (1240-1305) and his circle as argued by Yehuda Liebes (Studies in the Zohar, 1993). It was already commented on within a decade of its first circulation and has remained the standard kabbalistic text. According to the colophon, the imprimatur was already given in 1558, the year of the first edition of the Zohar - in fact both editions were printed almost simultaneously.
The Zohar, or the Book of Splendour, is the seminal Kabbalistic work. Kabbalah is a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy [miracle working] marked by belief in creation through emanation [essentially, the act of continual creation of the universe by God, and simultaneously by we on earth doing the same -- best conceived by us as in noddwyd's sig, 'with our thoughts we make the world'] and various mystical methods interpreting Scripture.
The Zohar discusses the metaphysical relationship between God and humankind, and the mystical ways in which this esoteric knowledge can be obtained. Note original author's name. Is it a stretch here? Rabbi Moses from the city of Leon, city of the lions [~Leo]. The original Moses being both Egyptian and Jew, raised a prince but born of slaves, an outsider in both. I hope Harry's not wholly akin to Moses in every aspect, as Moses was never able to reach "the promised land" - but who knows, perhaps for Harry, the promised land lies beyond the veiled arch, and he has to endure in on this earth, the world of the living, till the end of his natural days…Re: Wiesel's view that death is hardest on the survivors and that perhaps it's having to endure in this world after the death of those you love that Dumbledore is referring to as one of those things worse than death. But okay, I'll turn this over to a biblical scholar at this point…Main point being that IMO Harry must realise that he commands his own destiny, despite his obligation to the world, and that he can change the world with this power, the power of love and emanation.
Hermetics, Gnosticism and Kabbalah
Quote:
This work is an attempt to unite hermetic and kabbalistic ideas. Some of the chapters are also given in Hebrew. The diagram echoes the concerns of the book, as it uses a well-known hermetic symbol and fuses this with a kabbalistic diagram of the worlds. The diagram is entitled 'the Splendour of the Light', which calls to mind the kabbalist's perception of the highest spiritual domain emanating from light. The top section shows an equal armed-cross (here without Christian context) with the Hebrew name of God YHVH at its centre. Each arm of the cross is one of the four worlds which the kabbalists believe emerge from the godhead - Aziloth, the Archetypal World of Emanations; Briah, the Creative World of the Angels; Jezirah, the Starry World of Formation; and Asiah, the Created World of the Elements.
The lower part of this diagram is the 'Centrum in trigono centri', which occurs in a number of hermetic works, from the early decades of the 17th century. For example in Henricus Madathanus (or Hadrian à Mynsicht) Aureum Seculum Redivivum, 1621, in the Geheime Figuren of the Rosicrucians (see item 58), and was in the 17th century even carved into the lintel of a symbolic alchemical gate which can still be seen in Rome. The symbolism of this star of David or interwoven triangles, integrates the four elements Earth, Water, Air and Fire; the three Principles of Salt, Sulphur and Mercury, or Body, Spirit and Soul. The central circle suggests the hermetic maxim, that God is the circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere. This was used by many writers but especially by the Boehmist mystics - Dionysius Freher uses this as the basis of his series of mystical emblems Paradoxa, emblemata, aenigmata, hieroglyphica de uno, toto, puncto . This work consists of twelve sections, each with a poem, connected with an emblematic figure, and a commentary or explanation of the symbolism. It shows how the hermaphoditic child of the Sun and Moon, the philosophic Adam, or first matter of philosophers, undergoes a transformation, through various stages, often pictured with bird or animal symbolism, to a state of perfection.
This is pretty heavy stuff, but I quoted a bit just to show the length and depth of the history of scholarship on Kabbalah and Gnosticism - both of which existed for probably some eternity before being committed to paper and surely have many commonalities and shared sources. Hermetics relate to the mystical Gnostic writings of the early centuries of the Christian Church and are attributed to Hermes Trismegistus. Hermes [alliterates well with Hermiones, BTW] is the Greek name for Mercury, the planet following closest to the sun [as Hermione's sun sign follows closest to Harry's, as someone mentioned above], just as Moses de Leon has in his name a tie to Harry's sign. Anyway, a core belief of Gnosticism was that spiritual emancipation comes through gnosis [which is the esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth]. Hence the natural blending of seemingly different philosophies, for they are seeking the same underlying truth: Hermetic [Gnostic] principles with Kabbalistic principles [could be represented as Hermione with Harry] for seeking to know God and universe, or universal truth and love.
Re: Gnosticism, Hermes Trismegistus, and Hermiones, I brought in a link someone else had already discussed (FP, for one)-- the link between Hermes, which is the Greek form of Mercury -- which is Hermione's sun sign's ruling planet -- and that planet's closest relationship to the sun, which is Harry's sun sign's ruling planet. JKR is well aware of all these, I'm sure. I'm simply presenting some of the relationships that exist between these signs and symbols. There are also other connections between the mythical figure of Hermes and esoteric knowledge, that fit well with Hermione's character.
Actually I did correctly reference FP re: Hermione's ruling planet being Mercury. Harry's ruling planet is the sun. The analogy is this: Mercury is the planet closest to the sun, the one that most closely follows the sun. Virgo is the sign that follows Leo, regarding Hermione’s and Harry [and their respective sun signs]. This is the tie to Hermes/Mercury the planet with the sun, vis-à-vis Harry and Hermione. Once more, Hermione's sign comes behind Harry's, giving credence to her role as his rock, his foundation, his support. Hermes is associated with healing and knowledge [medicine], both of which Hermione’s supplies to Harry via love and emotional and intellectual support [symbolised in OotP by the Hermione as Lifeline scene at holiday break, No. 12].
And I'll let someone else discuss the caduceus further but Hermes' staff = 2 entwined snakes [... remember Dumbledore's smoky vision in OotP??? it's possible...] is also an ancient symbol of esoteric knowledge, hence another reference to the Kabbalah and Gnosticism. Specifically, Hermes was the messenger, the one who brought knowledge to humankind. Including, e.g., knowledge of healing and esoteric wisdom. This can be viewed as symbolic of what Hermione does for Harry, and why he needs her desperately. And the complementary dualism especially present in Kabbalah [on many levels: man and woman, God and humankind, etc] is exactly a part of what I was getting at.
BTW Lupin/Luna's association with the moon/Cancer: this sign precedes Leo and also represents esoteric knowledge via association with the unconscious, the universal mother, the gateway of souls -- this suggests once again that Lupin and Luna will somehow also be key to Harry's spiritual growth and understanding on an esoteric level.
Quote: By AK
‘According to John Granger's book "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter", the Harry Potter books draw heavily on alchemy and it's symbols for their plots, their themes, and their overall "flavour."
What does this mean for Ron and Hermione? Well, there are two elements that always "argue" with each other and eventually join together in alchemy - the Red Element, Sulphur, and the White Element, Mercury. They are represented by, among other things, a red-headed warrior quarrelling with a lady in white, and eventually marrying her. John points out some compelling proof for this - among other bits of proof is that Hermione is the Greek feminine version of the name "Hermes -" and Hermes is another name for the roman god Mercury.’
AK, I haven't read Granger's book, but I will say that in traditional alchemy terms, sulphur is a fire element, traditionally associated with Vulcan, the underworld, and later, with the starkest Christian concept of "hellfire and ****ation" [but note: the association with sulphur was not from Hades but from Vulcan]. Vulcan, the god of Fire, was black-haired, morose, possessed his own esoteric knowledge of mining and metalworking, and was often depicted as lame. He is the hidden fire in the mountain, whilst Apollo was the god of the "fire in the open sky", the sun. The association with fire is probably the reason for sulphur's categorisation as a "red" element, associated with the Red Warrior that Granger discusses.
Remember that Leo is one of the 3 fire signs, ruled by the Sun, whilst Pisces is a water sign, ruled by Neptune. Therefore, Granger's interpretation of the fire element Sulphur indicating Ron [based on Ron's hair colour and a quick temper, I assume?] is lacking the logical continuity of his earlier argument. If the association with Hermione occurs because Mercury is her ruling planet, associated with an air sign, and embodies many of her characteristics, I find that sound. However, the parallel association is with a ruling planet that is associated with a fire sign [represented by "Red" Sulphur], as fire and air feed one another. That would seem to more strongly points to Harry, not Ron, despite Ron's hair colour.
Interestingly, Harry has also symbolically been rendered "lame" by the scar on his forehead, just for starters. Harry has been rendered figuratively lame in many other ways, as well [orphaned, unloved, despised, marked, and so forth]. Harry has more compelling ties, through fire, to both Apollo/Sun [Harry's own sign, a fire sign] and Vulcan/Mars [another fire sign]. Vulcan is the brother of Mars (Ares), the god of War, and both are linked to the sun sign of Aries [fire]/ruling planet Mars. However, it was Vulcan and Apollo in mythology that had the tense, competitive, and symbiotic relationship -- each being the opposite of the other: one representing fire and light, the other, fire and darkness. One of Harry's life lessons may be to overcome the false dualism and unify these opposing forces within himself. One more thing -- Vulcan as blacksmith to the gods, forged the lightning bolts of Jupiter, or Zeus.
Finally, AK, the point about Hermes and Mercury [ties to Hermione] can be separated from the symbol of the White Lady. Mercury is of course liquid silver metal, and white and silver are one and the same, metaphysically. However, white and silver are the same colours associated with the Moon, and thus if you choose regardless to view Ron as the Red Warrior, then the compatible White Lady would be Luna, whose sun sign, like Ron's, is water and would blend rather than forever clash or storm. All we need is one row or argument to fulfil Granger's referenced mythology, and there's time yet for that. All in all, Granger's interpretation could be seen as a bit loose IMHO, that's all I'm saying.
The evidence points to Harry and Hermione as the Red Warrior and White Lady. But it you must see it as Ron, though it is truly a stretch, then using comparable logic, his compatible White Lady is Luna.
Vulcan is such an anti-hero: dark, suffering, maimed, ill-favoured half brother of golden Apollo - so of course he was always my favourite. But Vulcan's true legacy was humankind. Of all the gods, Vulcan [ref. Ea/Enki in Babylonian mythology] was humankind's most steadfast supporter, teaching us the principles of mining, metalworking, architecture, mathematics, science, and so on - in short, all the concrete necessities for building our civilisations - as Hermes likewise addressed and taught us the intangible esoterics necessary for the spiritual understanding and progress of the species: reason, wisdom, healing, and art. Re: Vulcan, we have from the most unlikely source, the ill-favoured anti-hero, the one capable of changing the world with…yes with his skills, but most of all, with his love and compassion for humankind.
Reasons for supporting H/Hr by Lleyki
Okay Davydee made an interesting post summarising what he saw as the main reasons H/Hr shippers supported that ship and surmised that the arguments showed that Harry and Ron was just as much a possibility as Harry and Hermione. Fair enough. However, speaking as a H/Hr shipper, there are many other reasons for I support Harry and Hermione that wasn't mentioned. Now this is just MY reasons and is not a reflection of EVERY H/Hr shipper so please don't summarise our arguments, purely based on my post. Okay here goes;
(1) I have found many times R/Hr arguments revolve around HE likes her, HE gets jealous over her, etc., etc. However there have been few times where her feelings are taken into account and after reading all five books I really believe Hermione has feelings for Harry. I've given evidence of this so much; but I'm sure someone will say where was that in the text; so I'll give one from each book.
PS/SS
I spoke about the ending scene in my last post and some persons completely missed the point. I specifically said that I'm sure some would argue that for plot reasons Hermione had to go on with Harry, leaving Ron behind. Sure enough some made mention of Harry being the hero and needing to save the day. Yes, but this was NOT my point. The point of my referring to Ron's falling off the horse and Harry getting ready to go face Snape/Quirrel was Hermione's REACTION to each. I don't think Hermione sees Harry as "oh he's the hero so my reaction has to be more intense". The fact is BOTH boys were her friends and BOTH made decisions that could have potentially ended in their deaths. For BOTH incidents we saw Hermione's reaction and the fact is deny it all you want; but she was WAY more intense towards Harry than Ron. Hermione knew what Ron was going to do just like she knew what Harry was going to do; so one can't use the argument that the whole thing with Ron happened too fast for her to fully react. Hermione stood and watched Ron fall from an extremely dangerous height and while she screamed; she didn't even stop to make sure the boy was alive. Nothing. Yet with Harry he has to convince her to leave and that's after her full "you're a great wizard, etc." speech. Might have been nice to tell poor Ron how brave he was before the kid almost got himself killed.
COS
Her reaction to him during the year-end feast. I'm not going in-depth with this again. Her immediate belief that he was the hero, he saved the day, her obvious pride in him again. It certainly makes a very romantic image of Hermione running towards Harry, wearing pyjamas (of all things) screaming "you did it". It parallels the romantic imagery from early in the book with her waving at him from atop a white stairs and running down to meet him; hair flying behind her.
POA
Hermione going to see Harry's game when she wasn't speaking to him. You know there were a number of different things I could have used but I chose this because it's seemingly a little thing. However I've always believed the little things can be just as beautiful as the big, dramatic demonstrations of love. Harry obviously didn't see Hermione, which is why he asked her if she was even there. Thus, here we have Hermione who is not even that fond of the game (witness her eventual boredom in the discussion about the World Cup in GOF), who is technically not speaking to Harry and is mad enough to not run onto the pitch like the other members of the house, yet she was there. I know many persons will just shrug it off as insignificant but obviously Harry likes having her there or (a) he wouldn't even notice that she wasn't and (b) he wouldn't ask about it. Through all that was going on with her (too much work, stress, fighting with Ron, etc), she came to see his game. I mean really it wasn't like Harry would be lacking for support if she wasn't there; the whole Gryffindor house treats Harry like a God when it comes to Quidditch and she obviously didn't come to make a point to him; or she would have made sure he saw her. She did it because she WANTED to be there. She WANTED to see him play and her words later are significant, when she tells him that she was happy they won and " I think YOU did really well". One wonders sometimes if Hermione really watches the other players at all. I say that when you consider her immediately being on the pitch before Harry had even finished saying he couldn't see with his glasses because of the rain.
GOF
Her pride over his accomplishments in the first two tasks. I can understand being nervous and afraid but really; nail marks on the face? That's a little intense, since she herself was well aware that DD would never allow for a task that would get the kids killed. Then there was the Lake Task. I said this a long time ago, but Hermione NEVER asked about Ron. Persons rushed to the whole "oh Ron was with Percy at the time" defence, but as I said then; are you telling me Ron had to physically be in Hermione's presence for her to ask about him. The boys were the LAST getting back, they were well outside the time limit; I mean even Percy was extremely worried, yet all Hermione does is gush over how proud she was of Harry for figuring out how to get in the water on his own and if something happened to him because he was so late coming back. Hermione is so preoccupied with Harry that she barely even glances at Krum when he speaks to her and almost irritatingly brushes the beetle off her hair. When Harry's marks are given she's just glowing at Harry like he's just accomplished the unthinkable. No wonder poor Krum was annoyed. We can compare this to Ron's shining moments. When Harry and Hermione realize Ron and the team won the cup, they both just smile up at Ron and as soon as he passes, go back to worrying about their initial problem of Grawp. I mean honestly the boy just won after sucking SO bad at the sport and that's the extent of her excitement?
(2) Respect For Each Other. Hermione DOES NOT dominate Harry and he DOES NOT dominate her. I love that she will tell him the truth whether or not he wants to hear it. At the same time she can be extremely sympathetic and understanding. Persons love to say how Hermione just coldly tells Harry when something is not a good idea not thinking of how he is feeling but I'll refer to a moment in POA. When Hermione and Ron are trying to convince Harry not to do anything crazy about Sirius, Hermione got to the point of getting tearful and pleading. She WAS NOT lecturing, she WAS NOT nagging, she was pleading and breaking down, trying to reach him. Hermione and Harry NEVER belittle or insult each other. EVER. They will have disagreements and as was the case in OOTP some intense blow-outs but neither one aims to deliberately hurt the other or make them feel bad. Now compare that to Ron's yelling at Hermione at the Yule Ball. He had a look of satisfaction when she left hurt and upset. A look of SATISFACTION. Yet persons defend this; all because the girl had a date. What crime did Hermione commit to deserve that kind of humiliation from Ron? I want someone to answer that for me.
3) Equality. I am a HUGE believer in equality between the sexes and the fact is where Harry is weak, Hermione is strong. He is extremely gifted but is extremely un-motivated to excel in his schoolwork. That's where Hermione comes in. Where he is TOO emotional, she is his rational voice. Some persons say she is too rational, that she lacks sympathy. I don't see that. I've always seen Hermione as the combination of thinking and feeling person. She can be extremely intense and emotional at times but has the ability and knows when to separate emotion and look at a situation calmly. Harry needs that in his life. Now MORE than ever. Many persons would like to believe that he will pull away from Hermione in the next book, I don't see that but let's just say for argument's sake he does. Do people really seeing Hermione allowing Harry to pull away from her; because I don't. It's not in her character. She's too stubborn for that. I mean this is the same girl who argued about him seeing Sirius up until the diversion was made and he was leaving; she was still arguing. Hermione people, will NOT allow Harry to pull away from her. Period. Incidentally I don't see this happening because one, person’s thought it would in this book and the kids only got closer. Two, if as an author you are setting up to minimize a character and have the hero pull away from her, it would help to prepare the readers by slowly diminishing her role from the previous book. You don't make her even more central in the person's life to suddenly yank her away. The only character slowly minimized in this book was Ron. NOT Hermione, so if this is what some shippers are hoping for to make their ship work, you'll be waiting well into the seventh book. In terms of equality between the two again, Hermione is Harry's equivalent in many ways. She may not be exactly as powerful as him but really he is the hero after all, so one wouldn't expect her to be.
(4) They are friends. Contrary to some opinions, Harry and Hermione are friends. She is not some person he tolerates. He loves her and she loves him. He understands her and respects her for what she is. I'll use the example of SPEW. In GOF we see Harry very much irritated with SPEW as Ron is, but before the book ends we see him pretty much accepting of it as part of her. Witness his curiosity over how she felt about the menus. He didn't turn around and poke fun at her, but was just genuinely curious and by OOTP we see him referring to SPEW only when describing a look of Hermione's or wondering how she'd feel about something or another. In other words Harry has long accepted Hermione's obsession with house-elves and just lives with it. Ron on the other hand is still muttering snarky comments under his breath, or still being bothered by her obsession with it. The girl wants to fight for house-elves, no matter how crazy, let her be.
(5) I like it. This is probably my most simple reason for supporting this pair but honestly, isn't most persons ship preferences really about personal taste? What exactly appeals to you? The fact is many persons say that Harry and Hermione is clichéd hero gets the girl; but that's where I disagree. Hermione is not the typical "girl" in that cliché. She is not stunningly beautiful; she's not the super-popular, perfect girl. She's a bookworm and in many ways a plain-Jane and that appeals to me. Why shouldn't she get the hero? Score one for bookworms everywhere. I like that at the same time he has been HER hero. It's not everyday a guy jumps on 12-foot troll for a girl. While he's been her hero she's never been a weakling and her strength is appealing in a female lead. I am not close-minded to all other pairings. It's just that I read a scene like Hermione and Ron bickering over who stunned who and it's mildly cute but that's it. Plus, they've been doing this since the first book and it has really gotten rather tired. The fact is I like the idea that two people can get together without there being forced, petty, non-sensical bickering added to them under the veil of some so-called "tension". I like the idea that we can see two teenagers get together without the old girl likes boy-boy doesn't notice her-girl gets over boy-boy realizes how truly amazing girl always was. I like the idea that we can see a popular source of entertainment that shows two teens respecting, loving, supporting each other and that yes, they can fall in love. It is possible. Finally persons always use to say how Harry gets everything and Ron deserves Hermione. I guess JK threw that out by giving Ron Prefect and Quidditch Cup but I'm sure some will still see Ron as the poor, pathetic guy who deserves to win the girl. Personally I hate that because it objectifies Hermione as some kind of consolation prize, however I can argue that HARRY deserves Hermione. Many persons want to make Ron out to be some poor guy and Harry as getting everything; but that really isn't the case. It astounds me when persons have this view after reading the books and you take a scene like when Mrs.Weasley was reacting to Ron's being made prefect. I'm sure in persons bid to believe poor Ron was finally being vindicated, no one stopped to think how Harry might have felt in that moment. Now don't get me wrong, Mrs. Weasley had EVERY right to be proud of her son but imagine Harry, orphan as he is, had to stand and watch Mrs Weasley fawn and be so proud of her son; knowing he will never have that. Because the truth is no matter how much Mrs. Weasley loves Harry and supports him and takes care of him, because she's naturally a mothering woman, essentially Sirius was right; she's NOT his mother. She will never love him like Lily did and judging by how much people love Lily, she was pretty ****ed amazing; but Harry'll never know that personally and I just shake my head at persons acting like Harry gets everything. Right. That's why when it's all said and done, I think why shouldn't he have Hermione in the end? Why shouldn't he be with the ONE person who has supported him, stood by him, loved him, defended him, unwaveringly throughout?
Before I end I wanted to comment on persons attacks on Hermione's character for her disapproving of Harry wanting to talk to Sirius. Need I remind persons who it was who convinced Harry to write to Sirius about his name coming out of the Goblet? Hermione. Who was it again who helped Harry make sure the Common Room was empty so he could speak to Sirius? Hermione; and while Harry outrightly didnot like the idea of Sirius being so close to Hogsmeade, we NEVER heard Hermione going on about how risky it was or criticizing Sirius' being there. Yet, just because the girl realized that it was indeed dangerous for both Harry and Sirius to communicate, she's suddenly become this cold, emotionless person who doesn't want Harry talking to his godfather? I wonder if some people conveniently forgot that Sirius was still technically a wanted criminal? And I'm sure Fudge would have LOVED that; convince the public how much Voldie isn't back by bringing in one of the most dangerous criminals and his supporters. Besides that, you have Umbridge who was beyond insane, Voldemort and his DE's on the loose and Dementors working on Voldemort's orders. Yet despite all this, Hermione is cold because she merely told Harry that he couldn't put revealing information in a letter that could be intercepted? She is cold because she tries to discourage him from talking to Sirius in a fireplace considering a fireplace was where they'd almost been caught and where he was now planning to use the office of the woman who was certifiably diabolical? She is annoying and motherly because she tells him the truth? That of course being, that what he wants to do IS crazy and stupid but Ginny is the better partner because she voices NO objections, simply goes running to her big brothers and gets THEM to solve the problem, giving him what he wants, regardless of the risks? It amazes me that it hasn't occurred to anyone that this isn't all about Harry. Some of his risky decisions and rash judgments; they affect more than just him. What was his thought when Snape threatened to use the truth potion on him in GOF? That the things Snape would find out and the number of persons that would get in trouble. I mean who was it again who used a time-turner illegally, helping Harry EVERY step of the way to save Sirius? Oh yes, Hermione. As Lupin pointed out MANY people love Harry and as such MANY persons lives do become affected by his foolish decisions. That's why I agreed wholeheartedly with Hermione reminding him of DD running away from Hogwarts to save HIM; yet he was going to throw that back in DD's face by taking such a silly risk. The fact is there are times when Harry needs someone to knock some serious sense into his fool's head and it's a little sad that the ONE friend strong enough to do it, gets criticized for it. Amazing.
Harry growing up without love by Flying Phoenix
It’s for me amazing that people so easily forget that Harry doesn’t have parents. This means he never did know them not that he could remember them. It’s like that Harry did grow up eleven years only by his relative. People who have great dislike against him. It would be all right if he did find people away from that which did like him since his very day as he was born. Let say an aunt or an old woman or just a friend but this He don't has. He never know how it is if people really like him till the very day as Hagrid stood into the door and told him he is a wizard. But the damage is already done. Nobody can take it away; can make this hole in Harry’s heart vanish. Harry has a far stretched idea from his parents. Its simple the Dursleys didn't like them so this say they had to be the wonderful people on the planet. Now comes Hagrid and tells him all this wonderful stuff about his parents. This create a view at his parents which say they were perfect, they were everything what Harry all his live wanted but will never get.
On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron. That’s what I think is very interest this fact. Harry saw the very first Time how a family works. He never saw it like that by the Dursleys was too much and more played as to be real. But here it was again perfect, this family was again everything Harry did want but will never have. For sure Harry wished at this very moment he had red hairs and be a part of this family. At this moment Harry has to know he doesn’t has a family and will not have something like that.
The interest part comes now to play as Hermione steps into Harry’s live. Why is that interest? Because its wasn't easy to become friend with. To be exactly it needed a 12 feet high troll to get her as his friend. IMO is that interest if not a path how the relationship will be with her. And it’s on Halloween. Now to the love part Ron do give Harry a kind of love or supporting but in every single way is it very different to what Hermione give Harry.
By Hermione is her emotions for Harry from the very first book visible its there that she do like him and she say it in a way to him. For someone who never get such kinds of supporting words, not even from Ron or Hagrid, someone who never get a hug which was mean for him like a real hug is it something really special to Harry. In all 10 years of his live with the Dursleys and his year at Hogwarts Harry did never get that what Hermione gave him before he faced Quirell/Snape. She didn't say it because he is Harry Potter, she did say it because he is her best friend. At this moment was creating a special bound between them.
Why create such an emotional bound between Harry and Hermione if JKR don't want use it? From this moment Harry do know Hermione care about him this implied from this moment Hermione is the person who can reach him. Even if she annoy him or tell him off Harry knows every time in every single second that she do it for him, for Harry. That’s says Harry knows already a person who would do everything for him. Not in a way like Ron. I have no doubt Ron would do everything, too but this is different. Hermione would even risk her friendship with Harry and that’s selfless someone who, what we know from PS/SS, never had real friend is that huge. I said nobody could fill this hole in Harry’s heart, no Mrs Weasley even if she loves him like a son it will be never like a real mother, not Ron even he is his best friend since the Hogwarts train but here comes Hermione into play. Because of this bound, because of the fact that she was the first person in Harry’s live who did say this things about him and did hug him and even said be careful is she the one who could give him something what Harry never had. Its not that Ginny might not good enough or not smart enough its simply the fact that she can't reach Harry’s heart. Hermione can reach it she did this in her first year. You can't tell me that as Hermione said these things and did hug him she didn't reach him. She was possible the very first person who did so. Just imagine you has never felt love in your live.
You built a wall around you, something what can nobody reach. Behind this wall is by Harry his idea from his parents like treasure. Now comes a person, to be exactly a girl into your live which is probably the most interfering person you has ever meet and tell you things which you wished someone maybe your relative had said before to you. This reaches your heart and goes straight through your wall. With this she did create an exclusive path to you something what Ginny won't never have. Even she would reach him in future like that it will be always Hermione who did it first. See what I mean JKR did already create in the very first book the fundament of H/Hr something what make me think this will happen. I haven't doubts that they are only teenagers and won't feel this kind of love no you seem to forget Harry’s part, his lack of something like love that’s the key point what let me believe that JKR did plane from the very beginning H/Hr. And there can come thousand girls and fall for Harry they all haven't this path to Harry’s heart. That is what I mean if I say Hermione can reach him. Something what Ron, Mrs. Weasley, Ginny, Dumbledore, Cho never can. Sirius he could reach Harry because he is part of Harry’s treasure, part of his perfect picture of his parents.
Luna, Lupin, the Moon, and the DoM Arch: How Pertaining to Harry? by Evaluna
Thoughts on Luna, Lupin and the Moon
I'm not sure when either Luna or Lupin was born, but their names are related to the Moon, with 'Luna' actually being Latin for 'moon'. Lupin's character signifies a tie with the moon, and his name [first and last] also doubly signifies a tie with wolves [the werewolf, a magical creature whose cycles ebb and flow with the moon's, and the she-wolf who suckled Romulus and Remus, sons of Mars and mythical founders of Rome]. For Lupin, the moon in full has negative implications and brings out the negative aspects of Mars [violence, destruction, signified by the werewolf] in his character, but the implication is that Lupin has clearly gained or has increased in mystical insight, wisdom, tolerance and compassion from his suffering. Obviously, the Moon is centrally linked to both characters, so what is the significance of the Moon, esoterically, and thus how are these figures [Luna, Lupin] significant for Harry?
The Moon in Esoteric Lore
The Moon represents the Soul of the kabbalistic Grand Man, the unconscious, the Universal Mother [Isis to the Egyptians], and the initiation of Soul into the mysteries of life at birth and the Spirit at the end of earthly existence [veil of Isis or Gateway of Souls]. On the esoteric plane, Cancer [Moon] symbolises tenacity for life, hence the desire for immortality which leads the Immortal Soul to the end of its earthly pilgrimage and material incarnations. Having passed from the lower arc of matter, the Soul enters once more upon the spiritual path of eternal conscious life [BTW all this is paraphrased from various Kabbalistic/Gnostic sources].
Influence of Luna, Lupin, and the Moon on Harry
The influence of the moon is reflective, amplifying the effects of those bodies [celestial] aspecting her. The connection with the Gateway of Souls reflects for Luna and Lupin an instinctive knowledge of these esoteric mysteries, a knowledge that may be key to Harry's healing and growth in this regard. Also it symbolises that these two are key in helping Harry cross the spiritual and emotional threshold of adulthood, i.e., helping Harry discover himself. Specifically, I see them facilitating Harry in his discovery of his inner life and in giving Harry the courage to reveal his heart - both to conquer his deepest fears and to own his deepest love [for Hermione]. Without recognition of the love in his heart, without passing the spiritual threshold from childhood to maturity [through bonding with another per Turambar], without opening himself to the heights of love as well as the depths of despair, Harry cannot overcome Voldy [fear and hatred]. Only through finding and trusting in love himself can Harry give love to the world.
Luna amplifies Harry's natural compassion in one of the final scenes in OoP, and this is symbolic of what she might represent to Harry: an intuitive, non-logical source of emotional and spiritual knowledge or understanding, in order that Harry may access or understand his emotions more deeply or more clearly. Also, she can provide affirmation for Harry's life experiences to date with the mysteries of life and death [DoM] Specifically, Luna may also have knowledge of Harry's mother, Lily [?] and Lily's work through her own mother. Lupin, wise and tolerant, may serve similar functions, but more with the moral authority of a father figure of sorts; he, too, may have redeeming or healing knowledge regarding Harry's parents - specifically of James but...perhaps Lily is implied, as well.
The Sun [Harry's ruling planet] represents the central spiritual source of All [be it God, the force, or what have you], spiritually and materially, and is the Divine Self of the Grand Man. The sun represents the positive creative and active forces of the Cosmos. It is the 'grand conservatory' of Life, Light, and Love. Those dominated by the influence of this planet are said to be the natural-born leaders of humankind, embodying principle, high-mindedness, conscientiousness, pride, generosity, and nobility of spirit. Traditionally, the span of life was thought to be greatly affected by the favourable positions or influence, of both the Sun and the Moon.
Symbolically, Harry is well-characterised in many ways by his ruling planet [Sun], and yet his seemingly ill-favoured "chart" at birth [or, at the death of his parents just over 1 year later] can be seen to be countered symbolically by the positive influence of the Moon [Luna and Lupin] in his life. This does not address Harry's need to partner with someone for life, nor his need to find true love and completion through unity with another. IMO no one excepting Hermione could fulfil this role for Harry. However, Lupin and Luna can provide spiritual support on a different level or in different areas than Hermione. Hermione is Harry's foundation and his insight. It is through Hermione's love and support that Harry will be able to utilise and learn from the knowledge, both direct and intuitive, of himself and his background that Luna and Lupin provide.
P.S.: More on Lupin: THEORY only follows...
Remus Lupin, Lupin's name, is clearly significant but also strange. Remus [the] Wolf. Lupin's name has ties both to the 1) Moon [werewolf] and 2) the Wolf and Mars/War [see below]. The Moon aspect has been addressed above.
Significant: Remus and Romulus in mythology are half-human sons of Mars, god of War. They were suckled by the she-wolf and adopted by a human couple. The wolf, interestingly, is sacred to Mars, and thus these two were favoured by this god, their father.
Strange: Remus of yore was killed by his brother Romulus when the decision of who would found Rome was left to the council on Olympus because the brothers could not decide - and came down against him,i.e., Remus was slated for death by the gods' decree, by fate as it were. Yet Remus Lupin has no brothers that we know of [?] and clearly is alive. Per his namesake, Remus Lupin should have died upon reaching manhood, yet that's long since passed. Other than a resident font of wisdom, tolerance, and noble suffering [who -- unlike Sirius -- actively and seemingly supportively discussed SPEW with Hermione, as Harry notes across the table at No. 12], who is Remus Lupin, really?
I feel sure that Lupin's symbolic brother was James, as Lupin was estranged from Sirius until Pettigrew's betrayal was revealed at conclusion of PoA. But surely James did not kill Lupin; James would never have done so, certainly not intentionally. And of course, Lupin still walks. But Lupin's name is tied to War, as well. Clearly, Lupin will be a key figure in the external war for Harry, as well as in Harry's internal war to overcome the scars and pain of his past and present. But there is more to Lupin and undoubtedly there is much about James that Lupin has yet to reveal. And this implies…what? Lupin didn't die in the first [round of] "war" - in fact, James did. James died, so what could Lupin's first name possibly signify? I'll go no further without any shred of evidence, but I am banking that Lupin's irreplaceable knowledge of James will be key to Harry's reconciliation of his father's character and his father's death.
A look back on the Yule Brawl by Flying Phoenix
Now after OotP I think some points in GoF look now quiet different for once it’s the Yule Ball. I do now look what Harry dos and what Hermione say rather than to look at Ron’s comments. But if you recognise after GoF Ron never argue like that in OotP and that is kinda strange.
Anyway to my point its something I want make more clear now maybe I explain this whole scene like Mike did it with the PK because there are interest description hoe Ron sounds or how Hermione looks. I mean if we this scene use like that than we can do this with this one, too. But like I said it will do it in a H/Hr way because I think its strongly H/Hr and not R/Hr. Its not that much how Ron react because he react absolute in the line of R/Hr but Hermione react more in the line H/Hr what I will show here.
Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati`s empty chair. She was a bit pink in the face from dancing.
"Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything.
"It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her hand. "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks."
This interest especially that JKR did chose Parvati who got a dance and not Padma. To this image now. Harry dos welcome her though in all books if they are at Hogwarts I never read he said Hi to her. Its interest that he wasn't able to say "Hi" as she did so before the dance but now he is it. To Hermione, just imagine this image how she sit at Harry’s side and fanning herself with her hand its a picture of nervousness it shows that she is flattered, excitement. You even see it how she introduce herself she speak about the temperature and ask if its really hot. This on reminds lightly how she asked Harry in the PK scene in OotP "You had to be nice to her, hadn't you!" something like that. There you see emotions in this questioning. Its not written how Harry say this "Hi" but this image let guess it was as if it wasn't the Hermione from the library much more that pretty girl which turned just at this moment up.
Ron gave her a withering look.
This interest way to look at someone I did look this up and find different concepts for it:
disease, criticizing, dirtiness, death, destruction, inferiority, criticizing.
I don't show the synonyms I show now the Antonyms:
developing, flourishing, growing, rejuvenating, reviving, thriving;
growth, vigour; accepting, approving, complimentary, praising
If you ask me this shows every negate feeling of a crush. Anyway At this Antonyms you see how Ron’s look isn't like that it’s a cruel look, nasty. So keep in mind this kind of look than Hermione’s nervousness than you might recognise how wrong or displaced Ron’s look might be.
"Viktor?" he said. "Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?"
Hermione looked at him in surprise.
It’s strange that Ron comes to that. I mean how should she call Krum? Mr. Krum? No, at this moment Ron runs complete wrong. That’s where it started this brawl. So if Ron later after the Ball calls Krum, Vicky he remembers Hermione every time at this moment and what he did tell her after he called Krum, Vicky. That’s why I say if Ron were sorry he didn't say this name like that. This include till the very day in OotP Ron isn't sorry for his behaviour and still think he had all this right to act like that. This implied that Ron didn't change in this area. He never saw his fault it was and is Hermione’s fault.
And it’s nice to know that Hermione wasn't looking at Ron as she sits down on Harry’s side.
"What's up with you?" she said.
"If you don't know," said Ron scathingly "I'm not going to tell you."
Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged. "Ron, what -?"
For "scathing" I use again Antonymous and concepts to that I add synonyms because its very interesting what that says.
Concepts: criticizing, unkindness, assertion (negative), taste (bad)
Synonyms: belittling, biting, brutal, burning, caustic, critical, cruel, cutting, harsh, mordacious, mordant, salty, sarcastic, scorching, scornful, searing, severe, sulphurous, trenchant, withering
Antonyms: complimentary, flattering, honey-tongued, just, kind, respectful, sweet
This say Ron’s comment was rather mean, sarcastic. In a way you can smell it from miles. But the part which I think is interest is how Hermione looks from Ron to Harry and he is shrugging. This shows both are clueless. If you take OotP than I do think it’s an interest picture. Both are clueless but Ron isn't it. Now I come to my own experience how I remember if a trio sit like that together and the girl had a date which she enjoy is rather nervous, sit down and dos this with her hands and looks more to Harry than to Ron because if she did watch Ron she get it earlier something is wrong. And Ron react like that but the other on her side act like herself clueless this looks for me not like a scene for R/Hr its H/Hr. You need to keep in mind that Padma is still sitting there by Ron side. If I did saw that in RL I rather think it’s this quiet guy and not the loud one. But that’s only me and my experience.
"He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry! Against Hogwarts! You - you're -" Ron was obviously casting around for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, " fraternising with the enemy, that’s what you're doing!"
Hermione's mouth fell open.
Ron use at first Harry to describe her crime. IMO it’s important that Ron get her only as he mentioned Harry.
Spat
Concept: fighting, argument, disagreement.
Fraternization
Concept: friendship, alliance
"Yeah, well- that's his story," said Ron nastily.“ And what's that supposed to mean?"
"Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroffs student, isn't he? He knows who you hang around with...he’s just trying to get closer to Harry - get inside information on him - or get near enough to jinx him-"
Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her voice quivered "For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry, not one-"
Now Ron tells Hermione that Krum wanted never go out with her. He is only her date because of Harry and not because she is a girl, a pretty girl and not because she is someone nice.
This jinx part is again interest because this remind on the Firebolt. Hermione did in the 3rd year everything that nobody could or would come near enough to Harry so they could jinx him. And here Ron tells her she dos exactly that and bring Harry into danger. That explain why Hermione looks like slapped and her voice is shaking. It’s because of what Ron says and not because of Ron. That’s interest.
Entry: nasty
Function: adjective
Definition: mean
Synonyms: abusive, annoying, bad-tempered, beastly, *****y, critical, cruel, despicable, disagreeable, distasteful, evil, fierce, hateful, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, ornery, owly, ruthless, sarcastic, sordid, spiteful, squalid, unkind, unpleasant, vicious, vile, wicked
Concept: unkindness
Entry: quiver
Function: verb
Definition: shake
Synonyms: agitate, beat, convulse, dither, jitter, oscillate, palpitate, pulsate, pulse, quake, quaver, shiver, shudder, thrill, throb, tremble, tremor, twitter, vibrate
Concept: motion (fast)
Ron changed tack at the speed of light. "Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I suppose you've been putting your heads together during those cosy little library sessions-"
"I'd never help him work out that egg!" said Hermione, looking outraged. "Never. How could you say something like that - I want Harry to win the Tournament. Harry knows that, don't you, Harry?"
This reaction is which I meant if I said H/Hr. Because it’s how Hermione react about Ron comment that she would help Krum. She looked outraged and did say "Never" two times as if she need to show how impossible it is that she ever help someone else than Harry. That she would ever use her knowledge to help someone other than Harry. She even says Harry knows it and than she needs to ask him to be sure that he believes her. It’s very important in this brawl R/HR that Hermione react the most and intensive as Ron questioning Hermione’s loyalty to Harry. She don't act like that because off Ron she do it because off that what he say about Her priorities of Harry’s importance in her live.
"You've got a funny way of showing it," sneered Ron.
"This whole Tournament's supposed to be about to getting to know foreign wizards and making friends with them!" said Hermione shrilly.
"No, it isn't!" shouted Ron. "It’s about winning!"
People were starting to stare at them.
"Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem with Hermione coming with Krum -"
But Ron ignored Harry too.
"Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll wondering where you are," said Ron.
"Don't call him Vicky!" Hermione jumped to her feet....
Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger and satisfaction on his face
There you can see where R/Hr are crashing Hermione thinks the tournament is about making friends by Ron is it winning. This reminds me what Ron did see in the mirror. All what he saw was about winning.
Harry come into play after Ron started to shout and People were looking at them.
A little not maybe you did recognise it every time there are bright description how someone looks or speak is this an emotional scene that say The PK scene is one and the Sirius/Voldemort argument between H/Hr is one. By "Sirius" its IMO the most dynamic in all books there.
About this Yule Brawl this is for me an example how it looks still OotP between this three. There you see R--->Hr and Hr--->H. Hermione react the most as Ron questioning her loyalty for Harry. She said this "Never!" What she already said in PoA as Harry asked if she were even by the game. She said she would "never!" miss a game with him. In other words Hermione would never act against Harry this one can even implied that she would never fall for Ron. Because this is against Harry.
Entry: sneer
Function: verb
Definition: mock
Synonyms: affront, belittle, brickbat, burlesque, caricature, condemn, crack, curl lip, decry, deride, detract, dig, dirty dig, disdain, disparage, dump, fleer, flout, gibe, gird, grin, insult, jeer, jest, lampoon, laugh at, leer, mock, put down, quip at, rally, rank out, ridicule, satirize, scoff, scorn, slam, slight, smile, sneeze at, sniff at, s******, swipe, taunt, travesty, twit, underrate
Concept: assertion (negative)
Entry: shrill
Function: adjective
Definition: high-pitched
Synonyms: acute, argute, blaring, blatant, cacophonous, clanging, clangourous, deafening, discordant, ear-piercing, ear-splitting, harsh, high, metallic, noisy, penetrating, piercing, piping, raucous, screeching, sharp, strident, thin, treble
Concept: sound (loud)
Harry and Hermione look out for each other by Sone
Harry and Hermione are really starting to take each other under their care. Harry is so much quicker to protect Hermione (and only Hermione I might add) nowadays. Like when Hermione ran into Hagrid and nearly fell to the ground Harry catches her. When Grawp tries to grab her twice, the first time Harry seizes Hermione immediately and pulls her behind the tree. The second time, Harry without a wand was ready to do anything to stop Grawp from reaching Hermione. As soon as the Centaurs attack Grawp, Harry runs to pick up Hermione and get them out of there. In the DoM, Harry pulls her down and protects from the shattering orbs and other falling debris.
With Hermione, she takes on the role of talking Harry and being able calm him down. She starts giving him girl advice, she gives Harry a chance to tell the public the truth taking out her own personal time (on Valentine's Day no less, kinda symbolic thinking what happened with Cho and then he turns around to see Hermione at their noon meeting) and calling in a few favours from she does not really like all that much. She sets up and organizes the DA (personally I think she did it more for him as much as herself and other people). When Umbridge is going use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry, Hermione immediately tries to protect him. First letting two rather interesting (but not surprising) exclamations and then a very shrewd (considering how much time she had to work with) plan that was supposed to kill Umbridge.
The comfort they take in holding each other is becoming quite alarming. Hermione shrieks even louder than Pigwidgeon when she first sees him and nearly tackles him to the ground in a hug, she doesn't even let go of him for a bit, talking breathlessly and beaming at him all the same. Harry of course does not mind this at all. It is not at all weird to me that after Hermione let go of Harry and Ron starts talking Harry starts going cold at the pair of them.
There is much more of course as has been stated on this very long thread but they are so comfortable around each other is the point. Harry and Hermione do not always let people in, but when it comes to each other, then let themselves in more than anyone else. There has been plenty of evidence that says why Harry needs Hermione but there is still the question of why Hermione needs Harry. For me it is because Hermione's experience at Hogwarts would be thoroughly miserable if it were not for Harry. Harry was the first one to think about what danger Hermione was in when the Troll was in the school and he was quick to protect her when it look like the Troll was going to kill her. Ron was rude to Hermione but he was right, Hermione didn't have any friends and she certainly would have never been a friend with Ron if not for Harry. Do you notice how nerve racked Hermione is at the thought of Harry getting kicked out of school? Hermione thinks of and worries about Harry all the time. I thought it was just often but after OOTP it has become evident to me that Hermione has Harry on the brain at least every 30 seconds of everyday. Even when he was thinking of talking to Sirius, Hermione nearly went nuts but all the same she almost begged and pleaded Harry not to do it, she even for the very first time did not pay any attention to Professor Binns to try and talk him out of it.
I also think that in the dark times ahead, Hermione truly looks to Harry to protect her not out just who he is but out of love. I say that because Hermione is not some timid girl but when she is vulnerable, she only lets Harry know how much so, depending on how hard she grabs his arm. No matter how bad things have gotten in the book, Harry has never failed to look after Hermione and it is not surprising to see that everytime she is vulnerable she moves to Harry and not anyone else.
How romance ties into the main plot by Sirius83
This essay deals with the issue of romance in the Harry Potter books. Is it really just a subplot, or does it tie in with the main plot big time? That is what I’m going to explore here. Be happy, this should be short!
It has at times been said that it does not matter who ends up with whom because the romance in Harry Potter is unimportant to the main plot of the book. I respectfully disagree. Love has always been a major part of the Harry potter books. Right from the first book, we learn that it was the love of Harry's mother that made Voldemort unable to kill him. Okay. Peachy, that's motherly love. How does this factor into romance? Well, I’m getting there.
Book 5, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix changed that conception. It is all told in two small parts near the end of the book.
When Harry is trying doors in the circular room at the Department of Mysteries (DoM), he comes across a locked door. He cannot open it. Ron tries to help, but it still does not open. Hermione takes a shot at opening the door, still nothing. Harry tries using the knife Sirius gave him. That's right - it doesn't work, the blade melted actually. I will discuss this more a bit lower down. However, notice that they could not open the door as they are. Also note that while Ron helped, Harry and Hermione are the ones who actually try to open the door alone.
Later on, back at the school, Harry is speaking to Dumbledore. Dumbledore tells Harry that there is a door that is kept locked at all times. These are his words:
"It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
So in short, the room contains a power that can destroy Voldemort. It contains the Ministry's secret weapon. Any guesses what it is? The power of love. However, why couldn't Harry open it? Why is it that Harry could not access the powers held within this room? He already has all the other kinds of love. He has universal love for people. He has family love from the Weasley’s and Sirius. He has friendly love from his friends. The one kind of love that Harry lacks at the moment is romantic love. I believe that Harry must be in love to open this door. Additionally, the lucky girl will probably have to be present. Harry and Hermione tried to open the door alone but failed. Will they need to open it together?
So this makes one wonder. We have already had an example of a room that could only be accessed when one most desperately needs it, and that is the Room of Requirement. I really do think this room at the DoM is similar in that you need to be in love to access it. Now, why Harry and Hermione? Why not Ron and Hermione? Why not Harry and Ginny? I'll answer that. Ron is not the main character in these books. The story isn't about Ron. For what believable reason would Ron be the one to open the door? Harry and Ginny? Why Ginny? Ginny is not the female character that has been placed time and time again with Harry to share in his adventures for all the books so far I mean, even in COS, Hermione was of huge help despite being unconscious with the note she left behind. Why would Ginny pop out of the sidelines to be the one? Not to mention it was Harry and Hermione who were shown trying to open the door alone to no avail. Ginny opening it just doesn't flow right at all.
There is only one girl who Harry can truly be in love with at the end of the story, fully. Not just a crush that he's now dating, but I mean really in love with the girl. This can only realistically be pulled off with Hermione. It also answers the question of why Hermione's role has been getting bigger as each book goes by. She is part of the finale. She is a vital part of how to defeat Voldemort. This is how romance ties into the main plot in a very major way.
Hermione v Ginny by Lleyki
Hermione's Help to Harry in Crisis
PS/SS
She is the one who sets Snape's robes on fire. Granted Snape wasn't the real criminal but the fact is by doing that she inadvertently stopped Quirrel too, when she accidentally knocked him down. This was the first time that Hermione effectively saved Harry's life. Ron, Hagrid, etc. were just sitting around worried but no one had a clue what to do. Hermione thought fast on her feet and she saved his life. Interesting then that people don't seem to think they have some connection. However I guess that only works when one is completely useless before the other saves them. Good, must remember that one.
Hermione was the one to figure out the Devil's Snare. It is irrelevant whether or not she initially panicked and made a dumb statement. The fact is that at the end of it all, SHE was the who remembered a spell and knew what to do. She saved ALL three of their lives. Incidentally it is something to note that while Harry thanked her; Ron chose to mock her freezing up.
She solved the Potions puzzle. I've actually read persons saying "oh well that wasn't an emergency or intense situation, like when they were being faced with the DE's." I wonder if persons are conveniently forgetting that with one wrong slip-up, Hermione and Harry could have ended up drinking poison. Puzzles require logic, like Hermione said and being rational and yes while that is what she is best at; it is sometimes hard to keep a rational head when being faced with the possibility that "if I make a mistake I could make my best friend drink poison or worse if I can't figure out the right bottle, we'll be stuck in here forever." It's like taking an exam. Yes you know the material and under a casual setting could get every answer, but when the pressure of an exam is added, the tenseness of the room and atmosphere, you freeze up and suddenly can't string together many good thoughts. That was the pressure Hermione was facing and the same girl people accuse of being emotion-less; the fact is her cool and rational head is what saved Harry, AGAIN.
COS
Hermione figured out pretty much everything, with the exception of who opened the chamber and why. Had it not been for Hermione, Harry would have NO clue (1) what was terrorizing the school and (2) how to stop it and (3) he certainly would not be able to find Ginny; who would have effectively died. Thus, the witch who persons are now actually trying to say is more powerful than Hermione; had her life saved by Hermione as much as Harry.
POA
Hermione helped Harry get to Ron, she helped them hex Snape and she helped him save Sirius and Buckbeak. One can say she didn't do much but the truth is she stopped Harry MANY times from doing something irrational that would have gotten himself killed and would have caused Sirius and Buckbeak to NOT be saved. Plus, while she didn't does a powerful Patronus Charm like him; she NEVER became a liability to him either. He never had to lose sight of what had to be done because she got in trouble and he had to save her.
GOF
She helped him with the first task, by teaching him the Summoning Charm. Not only did he do amazing at the task but the charm also ended up saving his life. So in effect once again, without Hermione even being there PHYSICALLY, she ended playing a part in saving his life, AGAIN. However I can see why one would consider her useless to him in crisis.
OOTP
She saves him from the Cruciatus Curse. It amuses me that persons actually want to say that "oh well we don't know what Ginny and the others would have done if she didn't come up with this plan." The fact is JK wrote her book the way she did. I mean what's the matter; are we upset because we didn't get to see perfect Ginny perform her little bogey-hex (or whatever the hell it's called). Oh darn, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next book. As I was saying, Hermione was the one who saved Harry from that curse; she thought to mark the doors (I mean really, sometimes these kids are all really slow, I mean the doors kept circling and no one else thought of this), she pulled Harry and what do you know, Ginny too; from the veil. She was the one who used the silencing spell on the DE. The fact is persons want to make an issue of I don't know what; that Hermione isn't more physical in crisis? However my feeling is if she was as powerful physically as she is academically; WHY would we need Harry? Harry HAS to be the one to save the day, he is the one who has to fight those final big battles, he NEEDS to be more powerful than her because at the end of the day; HE is the one who has to defeat Voldemort. It's as Ron said, "he's the one who has to go on; not Ron and not Hermione." However everyone needs help on their journey and that's what Hermione has provided for Harry in more ways than one; and it is really insulting to the friendship and character that JK has created that persons try to minimize and disregard her strengths and accomplishments.
Hermione Showing More Concern and Warmth for Harry
PS/SS
I don't need to explain these since I have argued them to death; so I'll just list them. Her reaction to Harry's win against the Slytherins. Her reaction to him when he is about to face Voldemort and her reaction to him at the infirmary. Her reaction to Harry's suggesting that DD may have known all that was going on and felt like it was Harry's right to face Voldemort and finally her reaction to first seeing the Dursleys.
COS
Her letter to Ron. Again I've argued this so much that I'm tired of seeing myself type the arguments. I'll say this though; compare that letter to the one she wrote Harry in POA with his present. In COS, Hermione's letter to Ron is extremely pre-occupied with Harry. She makes statements because of how it would affect Harry. For example, them not doing anything illegal. Now compare this to when she mentions Ron in the letter to Harry in POA. It was always in the manner of how the thing affected Harry or herself. For example; "Ron told me about his phonecall to your Uncle Vernon. I do hope you're alright." In other words she's bringing it up out of concern for what might have happened to him because of the phone-call. "Did you see that picture of Ron and his family? I'm so jealous, I bet he's learning loads." In other words she is purely interested in how fascinating the whole trip could be to her, learning about new and ancient witches and wizards.
There's also her reaction to him when she first sees him in Diagon Alley; Hermione says everything in one breath and there's her reaction to him after she wakes up from being petrified. No need for me to go into this again. If one has never read my opinion on it; just look at my other posts.
POA
The lengths she went to in getting him the perfect gift. One can argue that since Harry is the narrator we wouldn't know if she ever gave Ron such a perfect gift; but the truth is there's been many times when JK has shown what Hermione has given both Ron and Harry for Christmas. She could have shown Hermione giving Ron a present to do with chess for Christmas; so we would have seen her paying just as much attention to Ron's gifts as Harry's.
Her being on the pitch just as he mentioned seconds before about his having problems seeing in the rain because of his glasses. Now that's what I call; paying attention to someone's needs.
Her pleading with him about not doing anything crazy or risky to the point of getting teary-eyed. She DID NOT nag, nor did she lecture.
Her reaction to his falling off his broom; her risking her friendship with him by reporting the Firebolt, her reaction to his sneaking into Hogsmeade. That moment was always rather interesting to me. First we have Hermione squealing when she sees him, then naturally she worries (like she does alot) and then she gets flustered once he grins at her, asking her if she'd report. This was strange because if I didn't know better I would think Harry was flirting with Hermione but as is this is Harry, so that's pretty unlikely. However, it certainly was effective in getting him what he wanted.
Her grabbing his arm when the Fat Lady was cut up, as well as leaning into him when they hear Hagrid's screams and assume that Buckbeak had been executed. Her holding on to him so tightly that he was losing feeling in his arm; during their entire experience looking for Ron and then going back in time.
GOF
Her reaction to his reaction to the veelas. Her reaching to him to share the joke about the referee. That's interesting when you consider that Hermione was between Harry and Ron. Why reach out to Harry and not Ron?
Her reaction when the Dark Mark shows up. Hermione's so scared that she's white and she's trying desperately to get Harry to move. When he talks about his dream, she looks so horrified that poor Harry couldn't even get himself to say that Voldemort was plotting to kill him.
Her anticipating his need to escape the school and students and thus, bringing him breakfast and suggesting a walk. Her sacrificing hours helping him with research and practicing for the first task. Her reaction to him after the first two tasks as well as when she is showing him Dobby.
Her watching him at the Yule Ball when talking to Krum, her talking about him alot to Krum. The cute moment they share when he informs her he was supposed to get past the dragon alone.
OOTP
Do I really need to say these again? All I'll say is Prefect Scene, Christmas Scene and Grawp Scene. Now persons will stubbornly continue to defend to the deaths their ship and in so doing disregard anything that remotely suggests another pairing; however what we must always remember is that JK wrote all those scenes the way she did for a reason. There were MANY different words she could have used, but she wrote the scenes as she did for a reason.
Hermione's Making Harry Feel Better
She reminds him why Voldemort can't hurt him with DD around in PS/SS. She tries to tell him why he can't be the Heir of Slytherin. She gets him the perfect gift which kept him almost sane for most of Aunt Marge's visit. She believes him that he didn't put his name in the Goblet and stands by him when no one else would. She comes up with the idea of the DA. She comes up with the idea of the article, she convinced him to leave his room, she's the only one of his friends who's been brave enough to say Voldemort's name. Something that both surprised and pleased him. She was there once she found out about his Detentions; to make him a potion for his hand.
On Harry's part, while many persons want to say how Hermione annoys him and he basically tolerates her; he continues to reach out to BOTH her and Ron when he needs someone, he continues to be impressed by her intelligence (the coin idea), he continues to have her as his friend. He cares enough to not tell her who is really taking the elf clothes. He had a hard time telling her no about making the elf clothes when he looked at the expression on her face. He continues to respect and care for her. When Harry discovers Ginny in the chamber, he is scared and pleads for her to not be dead but his reaction and the scene is NO WAY as intense as when he thinks Hermione is dead. Harry first screams out Hermione's name pretty loudly, falls to his knees and is so emotional that he has trouble concentrating on fighting the DE, then when Neville tells him there's a pulse, he gets light-headed from relief. Wow. All that for a girl who's pretty much like a business partner he tolerates. My god what would the boy do if he actually liked this girl.
Ginny
So Ginny has some character development in OOTP and she has gone from being invisible to being more understanding of Harry than Hermione, better at making him feel better, better in a crisis and stronger than Hermione? Uh-huh. Persons actually want to make an issue of Harry having to help Hermione when they were duelling in COS. Might I remind persons that Millicent was huge and she was no longer duelling with Hermione when Harry came to help; so much as she was beating up Hermione. They didn't even have wands anymore. The psycho girl had the person in a head-lock, effectively chocking her. Hell even Harry had trouble getting the girl off. Also while Hermione panicked in the bathroom when Harry and Ron came to save her; it is important to point out that the two idiots were the ones to lock the troll in with the girl in the FIRST place. As Harry said; "she wouldn't have even needed saving if they hadn't locked the thing in with her." Now let's talk about dear, sweet Ginny for a second, shall we? She managed to be manipulated by a diary (even after her father always telling them not to trust anything that can think for itself if you don't know where it's power is coming from), almost got herself, half the kids in the school and Harry; killed. When he came to save her she was completely useless until everything was over, then got up crying about how she was going to be expelled.
After that she effectively disappears for two books, except to make requisite appearances of "girl who's taken with Harry and blushes when she first sees him." Then comes OOTP, where apparently she's dating, over Harry, can play Quidditch, makes a few funny comments, gives him exactly what he wants without considering any risks and by not doing ANYTHING except telling her big brothers. However because of this she has now become stronger and more helpful to Harry than Hermione. Hermione; who at the same age Ginny was when she foolishly got manipulated by a diary; was saving herself and her friends from tests placed by brilliant and older wizards. The girl who was saving her friend from his death by attacking a teacher. This girl; Ginny has become better than? When and which series was this in because it certainly wasn't in the series I've been reading.
Let me say that I don't hate Ginny. I simply find the character completely uninteresting even with her little personality change in OOTP. If JK does put her with Harry, fine. It would seem to me pitiful that this is all our hero got but hey, I don't control those things. What I have a problem with is persons need to knock Hermione's character down constantly to support this ship and Ginny. What does it say about H/G, that the best way to support and defend them is to minimize, disregard and assassinate Hermione's character? I've seen MANY H/Hr shippers (myself included) write tons supporting their ship with no mention of Ginny's character. However in the past months H/G shippers don't miss a chance to knock Hermione down. She's cold, emotionless, she doesn't get him, she was defending Ron by simply trying to get her friends to talk again, she doesn't show much concern for Harry, she's useless in a crisis, she's not as powerful as Ginny, etc, etc. It amazes me. Harry apparently has so many subconscious feelings for Ginny right? According to someone he's been subconsciously "checking her out", there are SO many signs to why they'll end up together, yet the bulk of the arguments here for this ship come from discrediting Hermione's character. I guess that makes that sense. If Hermione is rendered completely imperfect, it certainly makes it believable that after all those years Harry would think Ginny is the one that's perfect for him. There's ONE major problem with this plan. That being that most of the criticism is biased, unfounded in cannon and unfair. Again it is perfectly fine to support any ship you want. Again it's personal taste. Hey if gay couples are your things; by all means make a case for Harry and Ron. However the harsh criticisms of the characters is not necessary. Hermione may not be perfect as are none of the kids but to disregard her importance and strength over some girl who has had ONE book of not being semi-annoying is unfair and honestly ridiculous.
Harry and Hermione anti-heroes by Evaluna
I wanted to just briefly and casually explore why I think Harry and Hermione are anti-heroes and how it’s largely based on character and attitudes, because I hadn’t previously given much thought to how others in canon might perceive them physically.
As Nia described [& per others' posts on the issue [Ecthelion, Sone, Ilyeki], including my earlier posts on the essay reviews by Hermione], I felt that in OotP Harry and Hermione were shown to be very well matched re: intellectual capacity [intelligence], though Harry has rather much still to learn from Hermione regarding the sheer compilation, application, and organisation of academic knowledge. Hermione likewise has shown great aptitude under Harry’s guidance for defensive magic, but again still has much to learn [as does everyone, vis-à-vis Harry] from Harry in the application and practical usage of this knowledge.
And likewise, IMO, I don’t think the love or affection Harry and Hermione feel for one another is based on looks. Not that they don't find one another attractive; judging their behaviour toward one another, they feel extremely deep emotion toward one another. I would call it love, though Harry's emotions are still unexamined at the conscious level. And going on that assumption, of course they find one another attractive; love the soul [spirit], love the body. Moving on, I wanted to address what for me has always been a non-issue but is rather something I wanted to address after reading a ton of stuff from earlier when the new pics became available and so forth, whilst focusing only on the characters as they appear in canon.
Harry and Hermione: How perceived outwardly by others, appearance-wise?
And how does this tie into their characters and their antihero status?
[*short* discussion follows, I promise...]
1. Hermione
Judging by the reaction everyone else -- and not just Harry -- had to Hermione at the Yule Ball [they appeared to be struck by just how good she looked as well as that Krum was on her arm], I had assumed that it wasn’t about Hermione being plain or not. Rather it’s that Hermione isn’t interested in packaging herself under the current expectations of style and fashion. Apparently she is therefore considered attractive but chooses to emphasise not this but her intellect. And as has been said, many probably are intimidated by her intellect [though not Harry, interestingly]. Hermione is thus usually given credit for being attractive only when she signals that she is playing down her intellect and thus could be perceived as less intimidating to less secure persons.
In other words, Hermione is “given permission” to be considered attractive when she does what many other do, i.e., when she bothers regarding her presentation. At that point, when she’s perceived as fulfilling social expectations for being “pretty” [the biggie for her is “doing” her hair, i.e., getting it “under control”, since these social expectations of “prettiness” are all about controlling your appearance such that it conforms to the passing fashion], suddenly it’s okay for everyone to recognise that Hermione might just be more or less DDG. However, in the main, Hermione cares rather less [or chooses to care less] what people think of her appearance and instead bases her self-esteem on her integrity, her character, [SPEW, loyalty, bravery] and her intellect. Day-to-day, Hermione’s about more important stuff and really could a fig if her hair is ratty or slick, rather preferring to let her character, integrity, and intellect shine. Hermione is definitely the anti-heroine, as well, and I absolutely love that, but for me this is because of her attitudes, her willingness to take stances against society’s expectations (re: SPEW, racism, prejudice…) on a variety of levels from the universal to the personal, including [but certainly not limited to] her refusal to let society "define" her or pass judgment on her -- whether regarding her muggleborn background, her appearance, or what have you.
2. Harry
Same with Harry, who is described by Rita Skeeter [with his picture attached] as having a “charming” face, though one with a big lightning bolt scar on it, but anyway…shows character Harry too has messy hair and tatty civvies [worn hand-me-downs], and overall is definitely not the well-groomed pretty boy or conventional hero type [a.k.a. Cedric, for all he was nice guy and that]. Note that Cho obviously likes him [and potentially several other girls do as well], so we can assume she and others finds him attractive on some level, both physically and as a person. However note the scathing comments from the Slytherin girls at Hogsmeade to Cho & Harry -- Harry would’ve been in civvies here -- and we can assume that their comments are attributable not only to meanspiritedness and interhouse competition, but also to the shallow appraisal of the fact that Harry’s not well-dressed and smoothly groomed -- we assume they know nothing of his bank account and why would they? Harry doesn’t make anything of it. [N.B.: Cho is embarrassed at the Slytherin comments; Hermione would never have been, but rather would have been angry and scornful of their attitudes].
Thus in the eyes of many like the Slytherin girls, Harry is unattractive not based on objective appearance but because of implicit class-based associations. Yes, Harry’s on the smaller side till OotP, when he’s no longer described as such, but nonetheless he’s always been extremely brave, a great athlete since Year 1, and whilst clearly extremely bright [even Voldy says, and he’s supposedly a magical genius], was thoroughly unmotivated academically till 5th year [thanks, Hermione!], so he’s not exactly the stereotypical nerd either. But I agree strongly that Harry is a classic anti-hero in the best possible sense, per his suffering, his background and experience with neglect and abuse, his complexity, his compassion and intrinsic goodness on the one hand, his grittiness and his intensity on the other...[BTW I have a prior post on Harry and Vulcan, God of Fire [the original antihero] several pages back, which addresses Harry as antihero more fully].
So, in my book, it’s not so much about what the characters look like - for all intents and purposes, they seem to look just fine objectively - rather, it’s all about presentation and perception. And how it can work for or against them. And that it's how these two, Harry and Hermione, define themselves as persons in the face of implicit bias and stereotyping based on various social and class-based expectations. My admiration for these two characters, and my belief in their rightness together, is underscored by the fact that they each of them believe that standing up against intolerance and injustice, that standing up for their beliefs and their right to be accepted for who they are, are more important than whether or not they meet various prejudicial external social and class-based criteria for "attractiveness" and more general "success" in the world at large.
Harry's dream by Sone
Harry dreamed he was back in the DA room. Cho was accusing him of luring her there under false pretences; she said he had promised her a hundred and fifty Chocolate Frog Cards if she showed up. Harry protested… Cho shouted, 'Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog Cards, look!' And she pulled out fistfuls of Cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air. Then she turned into Hermione, who said, 'You did promise her, you know, Harry… I think you'd better give her something else instead… how about your Firebolt?' And Harry was protesting that he could not give Cho his Firebolt, because Umbridge had it, and anyway the whole thing was ridiculous, he'd only come to the DA room to put up some Christmas baubles shaped like Dobby's head…
What makes the dream so important is the fact that Harry's subconsciousness often tries to tell him something he cannot see upfront. I have said it on other threads and boards but Harry would very well pay attention to the dreams not involving his scar hurting. Forgive me Perdita but I have to regress to make this point.
In Book 1, Harry had dreamed some unknown relation coming to take him away. This was before Hagrid of course.
Also in Book 1, his first trip on the Hogwarts Express during the before the sorting, he is wearing Quirrell's turban, which spoke to him, telling him to transfer into Slytherin. The turban got heavier and heavier and tightened on his head. He saw Malfoy laughing at him, who turned into Snape, whose laugh became high and cold. He woke up after seeing a flash of green light. Before he knew Voldemort was sticking out the back of Quirell's head.
Again in Book 1, three nights after looking at the Mirror of Erised to see his parents, Harry began having nightmares of his parents disappearing in a flash of green light while a high voice laughed.
In Book 3, Harry used the Patronus Charm to ward off what he thought were Dementors (only to be Slytherins trying to sabotage the game). Later on that night Harry has a dream that he is walking through a forest carrying his Firebolt, following something that was silvery-white, just like his Patronus. He could only catch glimpses of it and when he tried to catch up, he heard the sound of hooves. This was before he knew it took the form of a Stag. Before he knew it was the form his father took as an animagus.
Now, his dream is telling him exactly why he and Cho cannot work. One, Cedric's memory. Just too many issues there to deal with. Look at the connection.
Dream - "Cedric gave me loads of cards."
Reality - "Cedric took me to this coffee shop last year."
Dream - "Cho thought Harry lured her their under false pretences."
Reality - "I don't why you asked me out in the first place."
It just so happens that Cho turns into the very person that is at the heart of their fights, Hermione. She offers advice to Harry in his dream just like she will in reality in the future of what he should do to make it up to her. Harry however in his dream does not feel he has to give Cho his firebolt. In reality, he does not feel he has to insult Hermione in order for her not to be upset. Both ideas to him are ridiculous. Cho never quite feels that she can get closer to Harry than Hermione. Typical Harry to fight it like he does when Hermione suggests that he teach DADA.
Speaking of which this is also significant perhaps the most significant. Hermione has never asked a student let alone a teacher to teach her anything that she did not think could teach her the subject. As a matter of fact, Hermione has a dislike for any teacher who she does not believe can teach properly. Even Hagrid is not above her criticism. She takes it quite seriously. However, she does ask and is the very first to suggest that Harry teach students DADA. This is the very root of why like Hermione likes Harry. Why Harry needs Hermione. Why they look up to each other rather than down to each other. This is the very root of the reason that Viktor and Cho were jealous of them.
The Hippogriff and the Thestrals by Flying Phoenix
This are the two opposite symbols in OotP. Hippogriffs are symbols of love, JKR create (that’s what I think) an opposite creature and that’s so called Thestrals. Sign of dead. Its rather interest that JKR use very much dead symbols in connection to Sirius. Like some other in this forum said is Sirius a not very long lasting star, The grim was how Harry did compare Sirius as dog form in PoA and at least the Thestrals which appeared in OotP as a way to go to the DoM. From the beginning was Sirius being very short. Its started in PoA as symboles like the grim and Sirius name come into play, but it wasn't time it was planed (JKR planed) that Sirius may die in OotP. Now why that way? What would be the different if Sirius die in PoA and not in OotP? There are two reasons.
1: Harry needed to love Sirius
2: If Sirius did die in PoA the hippogriff would never be that important.
In PoA are the hippogriffs are very much in this book, that say there is very much love involved. I need to explain: Harry discovers how his Parents did die, Harry learns to know Sirius and Harry meet his first crush.
In OotP are the Thestrals very much in, that say there is much dead in it, though still love (hippogriff) is there in this book so dead won't win. Harry’s security isn’t anymore there; I mean that he get why he is the boy who lived and what he has to do. Sirius die. Harry’s crush at Cho die, Dumbledore’s perfect wisdom dies. But still there have to be something was is in this book what is love. I think what I do think is there what calls love. Maybe friendship?
In OotP do JKR write that six Thestrals comes though three might be better because only three can see them. But JKR doesn’t write it. Why? Lets look if she did write it than we have that: Harry, Luna, Neville do see Thestrals. That say its quiet possible that in that case H/Hr ride together a Thestrals only as opposite picture to PoA. That was what I did expect. JKR don’t write it because it’s a bad symbol. This would look like dying of something maybe that what that symbol of the Hippogriff did create. So there have to be six Thestrals.
Something more if the hippogriff isn’t a symbol why than bring it into this serie if she could have easily use a Pegasus, by the way it’s the same family? Hippogriff as symbol plays in this series a huge part because JKR did create opposite to this creatures the Thestrals which are symbolic the death. In OotP she did play with it already with hippogriffs meaning of love if she did so than is it for me clear JKR is fully aware what hippogriffs are and that if a female and male ride it its pretty much foreshadowing.
JKR plays with symbols. Let look at the symbols of the houses a lion, snake, eagle and a bear?? These animals have exactly that what the houses stand for.
A phoenix for the order? Sign for hope and love (different love as by the hippogriff, more general, by Hippogriff is it romantically love)
Hippogriffs and symbolism by Sirius83
Buckbeak is a Hippogriff. Hippogriffs are a symbol of love in Greek mythology. Yes, romantic love. As we know, Buckbeak the Hippogriff was part of a huge moment of H/Hr romantic imagery in POA, when Harry and Hermione flew on Buckbeak, with Hermione clinging to Harry for safety and comfort - on a moonlit night no less, to rescue Sirius.
In OOTP, when Harry has locked himself away during Christmas, Hermione arrives, still wearing her jacket, pink faced from the cold and with snow in her hair and manages to get Harry to open up and go with her. Nobody else was able to even talk to Harry, much less make him open up without protest and follow them. However, what is even more interesting is this. JKR decided to remind us of the POA flight by having good old Beaky present in the room!
Furthermore, the Hippogriff of Greek mythology is half horse and half Griffin. A Griffin is a creature with the head, beak and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion, sometimes with the tail of a scorpion or a snake. From this we see characteristics that can be taken to represent Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Slytherin - the 3 houses represented by Harry and Hermione. After all, while Harry and Hermione are both Gryffindors, Harry was almost placed in Slytherin and Hermione was almost placed in Ravenclaw - both because they showed traits of those houses. The lion is the symbol of Gryffindor, the Eagle is not exactly a Raven but is close enough to represent Ravenclaw and the snake is a serpent which represents Slytherin. Convenient coincidence or deliberate writing by JKR? I believe there is too much here for it to be just coincidence, and there are other instances where JKR has used symbolism in her books - and had them work out.
Other instances of symbolism
The Phoenix is the symbol of hope and universal love. Fawkes the Phoenix has given Harry hope in the past. The Order of the Phoenix is the hope against Voldemort.
The Thestral symbolises death. The six kids flew Thestrals to the Ministry of Magic, which brought Sirius his death. Note well that being horse-like, they can carry 2 each, but JKR made sure two people did not ride at once like with Buckbeak the Hippogiff, symbol of love.
Peter Pettigrew / Wormtail, the rat. Sneaky and opportunistic. As we learn, Wormtail was indeed sneaky and opportunistic and turned traitor as a result. When we thought Wormtail was just a pet rat named Scabbers, it originally belonged to Percy, who is also highly opportunistic, turning against his family as a result.
Sirius Black / Padfoot. The dog. Loyal; faithful. Sirius the star is of a spectral type known for its short life span. Dogs also have short life spans. Sirius died an early death. He lived a short but loyal life.
Remus Lupin / Moony. Remus was also the brother of Romulus, the mythical founder of Rome. Remus and Romulus were raised by a female wolf. Lupin means wolf-like. Canis Lupus is the scientific name for wolf. Remus Lupin turned out to be a werewolf. Affected people become werewolves at the full moon.
The unicorn represents innocence and we are told they are the first to die. Cedric was innocent and was the first death we really felt. He also carried a wand with a core of unicorn hair.
That should be enough to prove that JKR does indeed use symbolism.
The importance of love by Flying Phoenix
I’m so foolish to believe that Love is not the subplot. No I believe that love is the main plot.
I need to explain. Before book5 I did say I don’t expect much love in book5 and I was somehow right. Well, now I’m so sure that Love is the reason for these books. It is what JKR did say that the only magic she believes is Love and if we look close than is this serie all about love.
Mother love did save Harry,
friendship love keeps him going,
and father love gives him hope.
But this father love and mother love is away but somehow still there after book5 is father love away, too. So He has only friendship love.
Now to my point. What has that to do with H/Hr? Everything. Harry had all this kind off love and couldn’t kill Voldemort. I tell you why? Because Harry hadn’t the greatest love. The only one who is that powerful and that’s true love. Oh I know you will heartily disagree but I show you its in canon and not out off thin air.
"There is a room in the DoM," interrupted Dumbledore," that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posses in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
Dumbledore speaks about love if you ask me. Love can kill you inside and that is worst as dead, Love can bring you to heaven though you still alive. Harry’s love to Sirius did end Voldemort’s to be in Harry’s mind in the ministry. You know what’s this remind me? It’s the only time as Harry could end this dreams. Its as his mind did speak in Hermione’s voice and makes him feel guilty. If you imagine that guilt create by Hermione could give him this strength, this power what could love do?
That’s why Harry has to find love in book6. Because real love could be the weapon what let him kill Voldi in book7. Give him power, which Voldi don´t know and don´t have. Love will win about hate thats why these books are there.
Now why it is Hermione and not Ginny? Ginny can’t it be because she is pureblood. That have something to do with the plot, something to do with the incompleteness what will kill Voldi and not completeness what Voldi is searching for. Half bloods and mudbloods are incomplete and in Voldis eyes not that high like purebloods. It would fit in the plot that the one who Voldi chose a halfblood kill him with the help of a mudblood. If Voldi had chose Neville than it was pureblood against him and Neville did kill Voldi maybe with add of another pureblood in that case Ginny. But the point is that Voldi himself chose the incompleteness and that rules Ginny out.
Dos that makes sense? For me dos make sense. But my little theories are insane, or?
Wait if that’s true than is my theories about Voldi=hate/dark and Hermione=love/light right. Interests, isn’t it?
If that is right than is Harry’s greatest weakness against Voldemort hate.
He simply can’t kill Voldemort if he stay there and feels hate in that moment it makes Harry weak and give Voldemort a chance to kill him. We saw it in Occlumency that Harry was weak as he felt anger. And Voldemort is now successfully to create a tiny spot of hate in Harry heart and in book 6 will it be the case to kill this hate in Harry and that might be love from someone.
Physical contact a changing pattern by Turambar
The evolution of this pattern of physical contact between Harry and Hermione is very interesting.
PS to POA:
1) If we look at the very scene where the trio become friends, a curious aspect of this pattern rears its head: Harry is physically decisive, Harry and Hermione have physical contact in a time of crisis and Ron is to one side looking on. "Harry yelled at Hermione, trying to pull her towards the door."
2) At the end of the book she initiates the hug and he feels very embarrassed since displays of physical affection are totally foreign to him. "Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. 'Hermione!' 'Harry - you're a great wizard you know.' 'I'm not as good as you,' said Harry, very embarrassed as she let go of him." Then there's the nice moment in the hospital wing when he realises she wants to hug him again but is glad she holds herself in because his head's hurting.
3) In POA, having previously seen Harry jump on a troll for her and wrestle Millicent Bulstrode off her - both while Ron is present - Hermione turns to Harry for emotional support through a physical gesture, grabbing his arm when the trio see that the Fat Lady has been slashed (by Sirius). "Harry, Ron and Hermione moved closer to see what the trouble was. 'Oh my -' Hermione exclaimed and grabbed Harry's arm." Again Ron is present but Hermione turns to Harry.
4) The Shrieking Shack/Time Turner scenes, when they are nearer their 14th birthdays than their 13th ones, are where the pattern accelerates and becomes noticeable.
It is mostly Hermione initiating contact. Harry is accepting of this contact and only indicates she should let go of his arm at one point when her grip causes him to lose feeling in his fingers.
Shrieking Shack:
"She now grasped Harry's arm painfully hard"
"Hermione suddenly grabbed Harry's arm again."
"Hermione's grip on Harry's arm was so tight he was losing feeling in his fingers. He raised his eyebrows at her; she nodded and let go."
Time Turner:
"In here!' Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of a broom cupboard, she openened it and pushed him inside."
"Hermione nudged him and pointed towards the castle."
"Hermione was holding Harry very tightly around the waist."
"Peeves!" Harry muttered, grabbing Hermione's wrist. "In here."
5) So to summarise:
a) Up to this point, apart from a couple of occasions where Harry has grabbed Hermione, the contact between them has been initiated by Hermione.
b) It has occurred at times of crisis/stress and generally involved Hermione seeking support, reassurance and protection from Harry.
c) Apart from the hug and flying on Buckbeak it has involved arm contact.
d) Despite embarrassment over the hug - understandable since it's presumably his first since he was a baby - Harry is still mature enough to pay a compliment - 'I'm not as good as you'. But he's comfortable with the contact, he doesn't question it and his indication to Hermione to release his arm is not a rejection of her: she has no qualms about grabbing him again.
GOF:
6) Here we see a change in the pattern to Hermione initiating contact in moments of fun/joy/excitement/relief.
Veela:
"She reached up and pulled Harry back into his seat."
"Hermione was soon tugging on Harry's arm. He turned to look at her, and she pulled his fingers impatiently out of his ears. 'Look at the referee!' she said giggling."
First task:
"Then before either of them could stop her, she had given both of them a hug."
Dobby:
"Harry!' she panted, skidding to a halt beside him (the Fat Lady stared down at her, eyebrows raised). She seized Harry's arm and started to try and drag him back along the corridor."
"Oh come on Harry, I want to show you!' she seized his arm again, pulled him in front of the picture... and pushed Harry hard in the back, forcing him inside."
Hexes:
"...catching up with Harry and Ron in the Entrance Hall and pulling Harry's hand away from one of his wriggling ears so that he could hear her."
The end:
"'Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek."
7) Things to note about this:
a) IMO it reflects Hermione's growing self confidence which is very evident in OOTP
b) Hermione appears to have an increasing wish for physical contact with Harry. For instance is it really necessary for her to touch his hands and pull them away from his ears (twice) to gain his attention. Wouldn't a tap on the shoulder have sufficed? And isn't hand to hand contact quite a lot more intimate than tapping someone on the shoulder?
c) Harry only initiates physical contact once, during the Dark Mark chapter: "He [Harry] seized the other two and pulled them down onto the ground." There is no description of how he reacts to the joint hug Hermione gives himself and Ron.
d) This pattern coincides with a growing mental closeness between Harry and Hermione: a lot of instances of them knowing what each other is thinking and also of Harry becoming more interested in what Hermione is thinking. It also coincides with Harry becoming more reliant on Hermione: needing her friendship when he has his falling out with Ron and her knowledge and skill to help him get through the tournament.
OOTP:
Now we finally come to the most interesting part of this whole pattern. It has changed again.
Harry's feelings towards Hermione are in transition and that flows through into a river of confused thoughts, emotions and actions about various subjects.
Just in the welcome scene, for instance, there are phrases such as: "found that he was not sorry" "the words tumbling over one another in a rush" 'but before he knew it, Harry was shouting" "every ... thought ... was pouring out of him" that help to show he's not on top of things.
8) The hug
"Followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair. Hermione had thrown herself on him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat, while Ron's tiny owl, Pigwidgeon, zoomed excitedly round and round their heads.
"HARRY! Ron, he's here, Harry's here! We didn't hear you arrive! Oh, how are you! Are you all right? Have you been furious with us? I bet you have, I know our letters were useless - but we couldn't tell you anything, Dumbledore made us swear we wouldn't, oh, we've got so much to tell you, and you've got things to tell us - the Dementors! When we heard - and that Ministry hearing - it's just outrageous. I've looked it all up, they can't expel you, they just can't, there's provision in the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of underage Sorcery for use of magic in lifethreatening situations -"
"Let him breathe, Hermione," said Ron. (Harry gives description of Ron)Still beaming, Hermione let go of Harry."
a) When compared with the pattern of the previous books this has to be the most intense and sheerly physical sign of affection and joy Hermione has ever lavished on Harry. Compare it to their first hug in PS: that was a moving embrace, this is almost a rugby tackle.
b) Neither Harry nor Hermione want to let go. Harry doesn't make any move to. Hermione only lets go after Ron intervenes.
c) For the first time, we are told how Harry feels: a "warm glow that had flared inside him". This feeling incorporates seeing both friends, but it starts when Hermione hugs him, as I've explained previously.
9) Snape's class:
"Salamander blood, Harry!" Hermione moaned, grabbing his wrist to prevent him adding the wrong ingredient."
Hagrid's cabin:
"Get under here!" Harry said quickly; seizing the Invisibility Cloak, he whirled it over himself and Hermione while Ron tore around the table and dived under the cloak as well ... Hermione gasped; Harry clapped a hand over her mouth ... Harry made to pull off the Invisibility Cloak but Hermione seized his wrist. "Not yet," she breathed in his ear. She might not be gone yet."
Quidditch:
"As they rose from the table, Hermione got up too, and taking Harry's arm she drew him to one side."
Grawp:
"Hermione walked right into him and was knocked over backwards. Harry caught her just before she hit the forest floor ... "Good!" said Hermione, as Harry set her back on her feet."
"Grawp's hand had shot out of nowhere towards Hermione; Harry seized her and pulled her backwards behind the tree, so that Grawp's fist scraped the trunk but closed on thin air.
"Bad boy Grawpy!" they heard Hagrid yelling, as Hermione clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering."
Out of the Fire:
"Get over here," muttered Hermione, tugging at Harry's wrist and pulling him back into a recess."
"Harry grabbed Hermione and pulled her to the ground."
"Hermione had been dropped, too, and Harry hurried towards her."
"Hermione gripped his arm tightly."
"Harry could feel Hermione shaking as Grawp opened his mouth wide again and said in a deep, rumbling voice, 'Hermy.' 'Goodness,' said Hermione, gripping Harry's arm so tightly it was growing numb."
"One of the giant's massive hands reached down. Hermione let out a real scream, ran a few steps backwards and fell over. Devoid of a wand, Harry braced himself to punch, kick, bite or whatever else it took as the hand swooped towards him."
"Pebble-sized droplets of Grawp's blood showered Harry as he pulled Hermione to her feet and the pair of them ran as fast as they could."
"Harry and Hermione moved together instinctively and peered through the trees."
The Department of Mysteries:
"The circular wall was rotating. Hermione grabbed Harry's arm as though frightened the floor might move too, but it did not."
"She grabbed his arm and pulled, but he resisted."
"He seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forwards."
"Harry raised his wand but to his amazement Hermione seized his arm."
10) The major change to the pattern from all the other books is that Harry is a far more active participant.
Instead of being the more passive rock that Hermione clings on to, he is much more forcibly protecting her. He reacts very instinctively and decisively.
From being mostly one-sided in the sense that Hermione was doing most of the grabbing, it is now much more even. There's more full-on contact rather than just arm grabbing.
If we compare Harry's actions in the forest scenes of OOTP with the Shrieking Shack/Time Turner scenes he is far more protective and physical with Hermione than before. In POA they were facing the Whomping Willow, a werewolf and dementors, in OOTP a giant and centaurs.
The way Harry shapes up to Grawp without a wand shows almost a desperation to protect Hermione. When his arm starts to go numb in OOTP, same as it did in POA, this time he doesn't ask her to let go.
11) Overall this changing pattern reflects the changing nature of Harry and Hermione's relationship:
Hermione has been the one to develop and realise her feelings for Harry but now Harry is catching up just as Hermione for a while was the dominant participant in the pattern but it has evened with Harry's full involvement.
Halloween love lost, love found by Flying Phoenix
Halloween: love lost, love found. Is rather interest that JKR choice exactly this day to rescue Hermione? I mean it could be everyday and every scenario to get to be friend with Hermione. But no, it’s Halloween.
The very same day as Harry’s parents did die 10 years ago, the very day as Harry the ordinary boy was chosen to be the-boy-who-lived.
This day as Harry’s live started to go upside down. Where he lost the only persons in his live which loved him for what he was. This Person who did give him this special bound of love, which saved his live. On this day as he got the scar which will decide if he will life or die.
On this day as his live turned into ten years of unbelovening, into a freak in a world where he not belong.
Not on the train and not as this tree did run through the school late at night.
JKR did choose Halloween for Harry to get the last best friend, to get the trio perfect.
If I do interpret this (its now a little bit far stretched) than it’s like that:
At Halloween JKR did take away love from Harry that was how this book started. Ten years later JKR give Harry that back what she took away from him. This doesn’t say it’s already there but it’s like a new start.
I explain 1981 the bound between Harry and his parents ended, they died. This love is only in Harry’s veins but don't give him that what he need to be happy, to have hope. Its keep him alive, keeps him going. Even by the Dursleys it keep him going, keep him to be good.
1991 Halloween: Hermione, the last best friend steps closer to him makes the trio complete. With this comes a person in Harry’s live who cares very different for him as Ron or anybody else. She is interfering don't goes away that easily that says she is there no matter what. That’s a new quality in Harry’s live his relationship to Hermione isn't that easy flowing like with Ron and still can he count on her. On this day Harry got a person which is very emotional. There he got a new different love which starts to building up till we got H/Hr. That say on this day he got something what need to blossom and that what need to do so is love.
Like I say very far stretched.
Anyway today is the dog day (that’s how we in Germany call this day). But this isn't the interest part the interest part is that on this day is the dog star (Sirius) very near to the sun. See the Greeks did call the Sirius dog star and JKR did know it, that say JKR dos know Greek mythological and this say again she do know what kind of symbol has the hippogriff.
(Grace Granger) Just to add on to FP's great post above. Harry was more than likely conceived on or around Halloween.
How Hermione gets through to Harry by Sone
When she arrives at 12 Grimmauld Pl, whatever Hermione said to the Weasley's, it was quick considering the snow had not melted nor had it been removed from her hair and her cheeks were still pink.
Anyway, this is speculation:
I'm thinking that as soon as Hermione came through the door, they wanted Hermione to talk to Harry at once. The Weasley's are very fond of Harry. I imagine they would be considering he is the best friend of one of them and he has now saved the life of Ginny and Arthur Weasley. I would suspect that Hermione did ask how Mr. Weasley was doing and then asked where Harry was. They say "up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything." Hermione being Hermione probably just said, "I'll talk to him." Mrs. Weasley made sandwiches and Hermione probably asked them (Ron and Ginny) to carry them upstairs into the bedroom while she gets Harry. My basis for this is that it is clear the Weasley’s nor Sirius do not know what to do to get Harry to stop ignoring them. They want to talk to him but they do not know how to initiate a chat. Ginny may even be wondering why won't Harry talk to her....she at least knows how it feels to be possessed. I really do not think Ginny was impressed by Harry's answer despite the apology.
End speculation.
Now not only does Hermione get Harry out of that room, she does it quickly. I was reading this scene expecting Harry to shut her out as well, but he does not even try to oppose. This plays a big part to me because it reminds me of when Harry's short fuse is once again lit up by Ron and Hermione smiling when he is saying all the great things he did were mere luck (so many wish they had that type of "luck"). While Harry is going off, Ron is almost speechless. He starts off ok but soon he cannot really think of anything to say and he looks helplessly at Hermione. To me, it is like he is saying, "Hermione say something." She of course does. To add measure to how serious she actually is about Harry teaching them DADA, she says Voldemort for the first time and right there, Harry stops dead, calms down and slumps back into the chair.
What is significant about these types of scenes is that Hermione does not know exactly what to say to Harry to get through to him or to calm him down. You can say she shoots in the dark but when she does, she hits right on target or as close as one is ever going to get. This is the same for Harry in all the great things he has done. Saving the stone, beating Riddle and the basilisk, fighting off the dementors, fighting off Voldemort and his death eaters alone enough to escape with Cedric's body. He does not exactly know what to do in those situations, yet when he acts, he usually hits dead on. When we see how Hermione and Harry react to each other physically when the one or the other is in danger or afraid, we do not see them with time to think straight or to make elaborate schemes. They have to react off their instincts.
Hermione's instinct is to hold on to Harry because it is he who she looks to protect her or be there for her. Harry's instinct is to be there for Hermione.....always though Harry hardly recognizes this. He won't let her fall (Hermione running into Hagrid and Harry being there to catch her), or ever let Grawp touch her without keeping her out of harm's way (Hermione clinging onto Harry really symbolizes this) or fighting tooth and nail for her (paraphrased " devoid of a wand, he was prepared to punch, bite or kick or whatever else it took") against Grawp. Not even for Cho would Harry give up Hermione. Not even a little bit. Hermione never told Harry why she had to meet him at the Three Broomsticks, he does not even bother to be suspicious of why she doesn't tell him. It is enough that she said it was important and that she did not have time to tell him. He lets that go without question even though he had no idea what he was going to meet her for.
Harry would of never said anything bad about Hermione to relieve Cho of her jealousy because he never did. Her being ugly would of been the least of all of them. Cho herself could not slide a criticism of Hermione pass Harry without him reacting to it. Cho I think realized at that point that if it came between herself and Hermione, he would choose Hermione. He chose Hermione over Cho on Valentine's Day, and now he chose Hermione over Cho again despite what happened to her friend’s face. "If it was darling Hermione's idea". It does not even bother Harry that Cho thinks of them that way, he just rather not see Cho cry about it because he was getting annoyed. Harry made of been angry with Hermione but he never hated her, in fact it strangely drew him closer to her.
All of this goes back to the kiss at the end of the Goblet of Fire. Ever since then Harry has taken more notice of Hermione consciously and subconsciously but Hermione has always been there. She has always been thinking about him and as far as the book says, Harry is the first boy Hermione ever kisses. Viktor (well Goblet of Fire itself) gave us the clue. Paraphrased "she talks about you very often."
(Turambar) A couple of things
Quote by Sone:
I'm thinking that as soon as Hermione came through the door, they wanted Hermione to talk to Harry at once. The Weasley's are very fond of Harry. I imagine they would be considering he is the best friend of one of them and he has now saved the life of Ginny and Arthur Weasley. I would suspect that Hermione did ask how Mr. Weasley was doing and then asked where Harry was. They say "up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything." Hermione being Hermione probably just said "I'll talk to him." Mrs. Weasley made sandwiches and Hermione probably asked them (Ron and Ginny) to carry them upstairs into the bedroom while she gets Harry.
This could have been done very quickly. Which explains the very short time it took for Hermione to get upstairs.
Hr: "Hi Mr Weasley, how are you? How's Harry?"
A: "Not good"
M: "He's up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything."
Hr: "I'll go and talk to him and try and get him to come out".
M: "Take him to Ron's room. I'll make some sandwiches, Ron and Ginny can bring them up."
Quote by Sone:
To add measure to how serious she actually is about Harry teaching them DADA, she says Voldemort for the first time and right there, Harry stops dead, calms down and slumps back into the chair.
The same thing happens when Harry first meets up with Ron and Hermione. Harry gives full vent to his anger and it's only when Hermione tears up and says, "You're absolutely right, Harry - I'd be furious if it was me!" that Harry at least stops shouting and cools it for a bit.
Quote by Sone:
Hermione's instinct is to hold on to Harry because it is he who she looks to protect her or be there for her. Harry's instinct is to be there for Hermione.....always though Harry hardly recognizes this. He won't let her fall (Hermione running into Hagrid and Harry being there to catch her), or ever let Grawp touch her without keeping her out of harm's way (Hermione clinging onto Harry really symbolizes this) or fighting tooth and nail for her (paraphrased " devoid of a wand, he was prepared to punch, bite or kick or whatever else it took") against Grawp. Not even for Cho would Harry give up Hermione. Not even a little bit. Hermione never told Harry why she had to meet him at the Three Broomsticks, he does not even bother to be suspicious of why she doesn't tell him. It is enough that she said it was important and that she did not have time to tell him. He lets that go without question even though he had no idea what he was going to meet her for.
Doesn't that reflect the Mutual Admiration Society established in PS?
"Harry - you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you."
In Hermione's eyes Ron is someone who needs her help at times, rather than someone she can count on to be strong for her on occasions when she needs it. And she doesn't mind calling on Harry's strength at times because she knows she can - and has - return the favour.
Hermione's connection to the Order by Evaluna
I was thinking you might touch on the boggart theory as well. What I mean to add for Elric is that [per Hermione’s Boggart - see past 2 threads or PM Sone or me] there are definitely and/or potentially several Order members who see H/Hr as a couple or involved at some level. McGonagall, per CoS Quidditch cancellation; McGonagall implies Dumbledore, since it involves Harry Potter. Dumbledore reinforces this in PoA by assigning the task of saving Sirius and Buckbeak to the both of them, trusting in their competence and trust of one another under [mortal] fire. Lupin, per Boggart theory, would have potentially seen for himself on either of two occasions: 1) in class, if he viewed Hermione’s boggart and granted her one time-turner exemption [speculative theory: dead Harry, based on absolute lack of any substantive reason to exempt Hermione otherwise - at least Lupin could reasonably assume Harry would see Voldemort; no one else got the exemption no matter whether parents died horrible deaths at hands of DEs or whatnot; her massive OD of fright in DADA final at failing seems trivial and doubtful IMO - nearly everyone else had a mortal fear, and I think hers was as well, just involving someone else] and 2) Lupin would have also seen Hermione’s boggart during the final, where we assume he monitored within the trunk for that portion of the exam course. Again, this implies McGonagall and Dumbledore, who’d have been notified of any time turner exemptions, though they’d have already known/suspected [BUT this implies Sirius as well, after he and Lupin had reconciled]. Snape additionally may well have given some modest credit to Skeeter’s article as he read it aloud in class, particularly since everyone else at school appeared to more or less believe it as well. Snape would very possibly at least be aware, as would Lupin, Tonks, et al, that Hermione was removed to No. 12 for holiday to address Harry’s crisis.
Brief speculation on Holiday at No. 12/Hermione as Lifeline scene
Anyway therefore, though it’s pure speculation, given that order members can quickly communicate with each other, possibly any one of the above order members who was at No. 12 [I guess that just leaves Sirius if the Weasley seniors were occupied, or perhaps also Mrs. Weasley, who did ask about Harry] could have contacted Dumbledore regarding the need for Hermione. Then again, it may have just been Dumbledore acting on his own, since he too would be in possession of this knowledge for several years now. Remember in Ch. 22 of OotP, before sending Harry and the Weasley children to No. 12, Dumbledore saw 2 snakes from one [could be from the caduceus of Hermes/Mercury, a sign of healing affiliated with Hermione, both via her name and her ruling planet, not necessarily Voldemort and Harry]. Right then, it’s possible Dumbledore knew Hermione would be required, that Harry would need her, that no one else would be able to reach him and heal him like she could. Hermione’s trip to No. 12 over holiday doesn’t require that anyone else but Dumbledore be aware of Harry and Hermione’s intense and uniquely close relationship. However, many others likely do already and certain of them might have also contacted Dumbledore to request Hermione, even though he’d apparently already made arrangements to have her arrive at No. 12. In sum, there could have been much communication and mutual understanding on this issue specifically at holiday break and generally regarding Harry and Hermione, even though it’s not necessary to the plot for the holiday break “Hermione as Lifelife” scene. Hermione showing up at No. 12 [all student comings and goings there happen with Dumbledore’s knowledge], Dumbledore’s caduceus-type smoky vision and McGonagall’s comment re: at least [Harry] listens to Miss Granger reinforce this as recently as OotP. None of this means that Hermione would be forced to make any sort of stop before visiting Harry once she arrived, which allows for canon details indicating that she had only just arrived [her cold face and snow in her hair].
Signs of romance by Evaluna
Hermione to Ron: Possible Signs?
In OotP, the only 2 clear signs of affection from Hermione toward Ron IMO
[aside from the inconclusive kiss as Harry received one too], were in one
particular chapter when 1) she assists with the boys homework and then 2)
shortly thereafter [following an exceptionally bad Quidditch practice or
game] where her expression melted toward Ron. It seems objectively to be
outweighed by the sheer volume of her looks, words, and actions expressing
attention and affection toward Harry from OoPs start to end, but is just
enough to keep the discussion going. It is possible that her look to Ron
was motivated from either affection or sympathy. Usually she is either
disgruntled with him, or, much more so in OotP than previously, just rather
unconcerned. Because this chapter(s) concerns a difficult period for Ron
[Percy, Quidditch], however, sympathy is plausible. I find in interesting
that on these few occasions when Hermione shows what may be just sympathy
to Ron, Harry takes note even if he doesn’t examine further.
IMO the lack of concern is also a plausible reason why Hermione isn’t
investing herself in Ron’s love life or trying to turn him from other girls,
i.e., her attention is elsewhere. That is, regardless of whether she feels
certain Ron likes her, if she returned the feelings then one would tend to
expect her to be more involved in his affairs of this kind. The persons and
things upon which Hermione bestows her attention are some of the biggest
potential hints, albeit subtle ones, in the book as to Hermione’s position,
particularly as she is circumspect and plays her cards close to the chest.
IMO it seems significant that [we are told] she talks to Ron about Harry or
else [we are shown] she frequently only speaks to Ron whilst arguing. With
Harry, she is quick to ask, quickly to notice his gaze, quick to tear up if
he is angry. It seems to consistently cause her true pain whenever Harry’s
emotional well-being is threatened, such as when he is upset, which doesn’t
seem to occur with her toward Ron.
Harry to Hermione: Possible Signs?
There seems to be debate by some [not all] here as to Harry’s intentions,
however, as he has not even begun to examine his feelings. I will go so far
as to say that IMO Harry’s intentions were perhaps clearer than anyone’s on
my initial read-through, although he of course doesn’t fully realise their
implications. I was so glad to see that while Harry was deprived of
basically all regular adult support, Hermione especially stepped in at
nearly every opportunity to provide that support and compassion, and if she
was emotional or in his business, Harry didn't seem to mind a bit but
rather seemed to expect and need it. The interaction between these two is
so deep and so much a part of his daily life that from an emotional
standpoint I cannot see how Harry can do without it at this point
Just as subtle but significant, as Flying Phoenix and others have mentioned,
is that Harry consistently finds tearful emotion [on Cedrics behalf,
presumably] irritating in Cho but strangely has no criticism, not once, of
Hermione’s tearful emotion [on Harry’s behalf, presumably, so perhaps Harry’s
not that dense] and holds her only in the highest regard throughout his
emotional rollercoaster. At one point in fact Harry is very upset when
Hermione doesn’t leap to outrage on his behalf but this failure only happens
once so he has no further cause for anger in that regard. Pride or
something more? They are teenagers, but IMO Harry still seems overall more
concerned with truth and justice than his pride. We see that after the
earlier chapter re: Prefect selection, where he pretty quickly gets over
himself to support Ron. It seems Harry’s come to depend on Hermione’s
emotional support at a very deep level, deeper than he knows, at least as
much as he’s come to depend on Ron’s support. Moreover, it seems Hermione is
becoming a part of him, of his thoughts, of his aspirations and fears [felt he
disappointed himself in her eyes re: Prefect, finally wants to succeed
academically so he can face her, Hermione as his conscience], in a way that
Ron, his other best mate, is not, and what could that mean? Simple
admiration for a best friend seems a bit thin when I review my own
experiences.
We can agree that the 3 main characters mutually respect each other, at
least on some level, although Ron and Hermione may not always show or feel
it, likely due to rather stark differences in background, personality,
preferences, and maturity levels. Harry seems to increasingly respect
Hermione over the last several books, which in turn has always respected him
in some aspects. We see that in OotP Hermione is the one whom Harry
implicitly trusts and esteems above all others, certainly including his
crush and even including Ron. By the end OotP, she is frequently in Harry’s
thoughts, even if he hasn’t examined why. We aren’t privy to Ron’s thoughts
but we know he seems to have at least a crush on Hermione since Ron, unlike
either Harry or Hermione, doesn’t play his cards so close but instead tips
his hand [perfume, stunned after kiss]. For this reason we might even
plausibly assume that this crush is more or less in fact all Ron feels,
precisely because he hides very little. Although we don’t know if Ron in
fact loves
her [is his character mature enough at this point?], IMO we have been given
circumstantial evidence that Harry may have begun to do so, and she, him.
Nonetheless I disagree that discovering her feelings or his own will be
lame and happy as in devoid of tension, obstacles, or problems for Harry.
Ron himself is a great obstacle to be overcome even if his feelings for
Hermione are in fact not as deep as Harry’s, because Ron’s pride is such a
sore point. Yet its hardly fair that Harry must swear off his deepest
desire [see below] and perhaps a key to his victory over Voldy, in order to
placate Ron’s ego. We can only hope Ron will have matured enough to face
what is, after all, a difficult but common enough situation in the real
world. And there is always Harry’s thus-far justified fear of losing those
he loves until & unless he can continue find a way to continue to turn
these perceived vulnerabilities into strengths & so realise his greatest
desires.
Hermione for Harry?
Predominantly IMO Hermione’s possible turn in affection or love for Harry
may be rooted in the fact that she sees in him and the man he’s becoming
those things which are most central to who she is and cannot help but be
instinctively drawn to him at a fundamental level because of who she is.
This is an entirely different level than the superficial crush, such as
Harry’s to Cho and perhaps Ron’s to Hermione (I don’t discuss Ginny and Harry
here since I feel she really came into her own precisely by getting over
Harry and it would be to her detriment to move backward in this regard, and
because Harry’s interest is not there start-to-end as with Hermione). In
part, this goes to how one reads the books, passing round on the surface of
the text or re-reading to get at hidden subtext. Some will never prefer to
analyse subtext, granted. Also, some are adverse to changes and growth in
plot and character, but over the course of ones life, change is absolute
particularly whilst in school (and one only hopes it doesn’t stop the
ere). Also there is the bizarre theme that since Harry is famously marked
for death and has had a lot of [bad] press, but also has Quidditch skills
and money, anything else is a bit much. Seems unfair to deprive Harry of
love he’s never had, per Flying Phoenix et al, who so astutely pointed out on
the other thread that Harry’s deepest desire is love, not glory or status,
and I can only hope for the best from our leader-hero [nods to Hawk92 et
al]. Interestingly Ron has already begun to receive much of the recognition
and status he most deeply desired from the start [prefect, Quidditch
team/cup], so JKR has been very generous toward his character and perhaps
this is a further hint that he is not the one who truly loves Hermione.
To wit re: embodiment of Hermione’s deepest desires: Harry not only fights
for justice and against discrimination, but he’s also willing to die both
for his ideals or to save those he loves. A humanitarian love for those
around him is not separate from his ideals but core to them. They’re all
bound up in the same heart. Harry’s humanitarianism has always been, as
Dumbledore says, his greatest strength, though Harry doesn’t realize it yet.
In part his greatest strength on its own merit and in part because DD knows
that people will follow Harry out of love, friendship, and mutual respect,
while Voldemort can only motivate through fear. Harry is all too human but
nonetheless never turns a blind eye and even extends his compassion to
Snape, his Aunt Petunia, and Dudley, all of whom have abused him variously.
Hermione sees that Harry has, like the phoenix, has emerged from the ashes
and trials of childhood abuse and neglect with depth of character,
compassion, and a generous and noble heart. In other words, even aside
from Voldemort, Harry has been tested by life and not found wanting in
spirit. Hermione, who is keenly aware of discrimination, injustice, and its
effects on the victims, knows that Harry has lived it and nonetheless has
remained compassionate and thus far true to his highest values [which VM
only tries to exploit]. Even his anger was largely understandable
frustration at not being able to do more or not being a part of it,
magnified by adolescence. Hermione, it seems, has come to love Harry's
soul, which means of course she has come to love the rest of him as well.
Resolution?
Hermione sees someone for whom she feels and cares very deeply, someone who
respects her ideas and goals and, with a little consciousness-raising, will
support them and stand by her on principle regardless of their
institutional opposition. As HayCheng said, she wants to change the world,
and so does Harry, in a different but complementary and necessary way. It
seems in OotP that Harry cannot be parted from her in thought or deed. He
seems to care for her intensely, perhaps has begun to love her already, but
is only just waking up to this fact.
Regarding Hermione, the things that remain are for Harry to
1) see past his own crush [done or doing],
2) to see the many admirable qualities in Hermione, in part because she had
to have confidence in them in herself first [also done or doing, IMO, as
witnessed by Harry’s book long dwelling on the thought and form of Hermione]
and
3) to see Hermione as Viktor did, as a person worthy of deeper no platonic
feeling [remains for next book to more fully develop, although there are
plenty of signs here that many others have detailed].
I think it is significant that Viktor, who is older and more mature, saw
Harry as a competitor for Hermione some time ago, because it potentially
implies he saw something in both Harry and Hermione for the other, perhaps
long before Harry had recognised it. In fact, if/when Harry and Hermione
fall for each other, I’m betting Viktor and perhaps Ginny to be least
surprised of all. Perhaps aside from DD [+McG], who after all has watched
Harry more closely than he ever knew
The welcome scene by Turambar
I've got a few thoughts here on the welcome scene. Other people have been into the symbolic significance of Pig flying over Harry and Hermione's heads so I'll look at other things.
One of the techniques in JKR's armoury for hiding clues, foreshadowing and being subtle is to space out information, thus diluting impact and making hints less noticeable.
A couple of examples from GOF:
1) Hermione tells us at the Yule Ball that she has not said one word about Harry to Viktor. Yet later after the second task, Viktor confronts Harry with suspicions about Harry's relationship with Hermione, saying that she talks about Harry often, meaning that Viktor thinks she is romantically interested in Harry.
2) Viktor reacts with jealousy to Hermione gushing over Harry at the lake side. At the time it seems like a case of Krum simply being annoyed at Hermione paying attention to Harry rather than himself. But later Hermione reveals that just before the scene we see in real time, Krum told her he had never felt the same way about any other girl and invited her to Bulgaria. Had we seen those scenes in sequence we would most likely have been agreeing with Krum that well, Hermione's behaviour was indeed a bit suspicious.
Now with the welcome scene in OOTP the sequence runs like this:
"He caught a brief glimpse of a gloomy high-ceiling, twin-bedded room, then there was a loud twittering noise, followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair. Hermione had thrown herself on him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat, while Ron's tiny owl, Pigwidgeon, zoomed excitedly round and round their heads.
"HARRY! Ron, he's here, Harry's here! We didn't hear you arrive! Oh, how are you! Are you all right? Have you been furious with us? I bet you have, I know our letters were useless - but we couldn't tell you anything, Dumbledore made us swear we wouldn't, oh, we've got so much to tell you, and you've got things to tell us - the Dementors! When we heard - and that Ministry hearing - it's just outrageous. I've looked it all up, they can't expel you, they just can't, there's provision in the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of underage Sorcery for use of magic in lifethreatening situations -"
"Let him breathe, Hermione," said Ron, grinning as he closed the door behind Harry. He seemed to have grown several more inches during their month apart, making him taller and more gangly looking than ever, though the long nose, bright red hair and freckles were the same.
Still beaming, Hermione let go of Harry, but before she could say another word there was a soft whooshing sound and something white soared from the top of a dark wardrobe and landed gently on Harry's shoulder.
"Hedwig!"
The snowy owl clicked her beak and nibbled his ear affectionately as Harry stroked her feathers.
"She's been in a right state," said Ron. "Pecked us half to death when she brought your last letters, look at this -"
He showed Harry the index finger of his right hand, which sported half-healed but clearly deep cut.
"Oh, yeah," Harry said."Sorry about that, but I wanted answers you know -"
"We wanted to give them to you, mate," said Ron " Hermione was going spare, she kept saying you'd do something stupid if you were stuck all on your own without news, but Dumbledore made us -"
" - swear not to tell me," said Harry. "Yeah, Hermione's already said."
The warm glow that had flared inside him at the sight of his two best friends was extinguished as something icy flooded the pit of his stomach."
Now, we are told that a warm glow flares inside Harry at the sight of his two best friends. But this information isn't given to us until the glow is actually extinguished.
Two things to note here:
1) The welcomes from Hermione and Ron are very different: Ron's is relaxed and warm, Hermione's is intense and joyful.
2) Harry is consumed by Hermione's welcome for some time before he looks at Ron and sees him grinning and appearing taller than before.
So when exactly does the warm glow flare inside Harry?
Since it is inspired by both of them it has to occur when Hermione first hugs him. It would be illogical for Harry to feel nothing all the time he was being hugged, then see Ron and then suddenly feel the happiness flaring inside him. If that were the case, the feeling would be inspired by Ron alone.
Now since the glow is inspired by both Hermione and Ron it lasts all the way through that rib-crunching hug and Hermione's gushing and for a while afterwards.
Things to note:
1) We are not told how Harry is feeling at all until the end of this sequence. If we were actually told about the warm glow flaring as Harry was being hugged, it would put all those stomach flips he feels for Cho to shame, wouldn't it? Can I reiterate again: this is deliberate spacing of information.
2) Why does Pig get so excited? We know Pig is excitable anyway but would he get excited just at the sight of Harry? Isn't he responding to Hermione's excitement at seeing Harry?
3) There's a kind of ecstatic, confused buzz about the way Hermione has to tell Ron that a) Harry is in the room and b) mention it twice. The boy's got eyes to see for himself. Her brain isn't functioning properly. Her heart rate's probably gone off the monitor.
4) Why hold onto Harry for so long? The long tumbling stream of words, Ron's comment about letting him breathe suggest she's gripping tightly, not wanting to let go. Instead of being careful with her emotions as usual she's completely given into them on this occasion and allowed them to sweep her away.
5) Harry does not at any stage flinch or try to pull away or make any movement to suggest that well, 'haven't you been hugging me long enough Hermione, time we ended it don't you think?' The text says "Hermione let go of Harry" and only after RON signals he's had enough of them hugging and suggests she puts an end to it: "Let him breathe, Hermione."
6) Hermione's words show she picked what Harry's mood would have been at Privet Drive, she knew what he would think of the letters and was worried about that, she investigated whether Harry had a case to answer and tries to reassure him.
7) Hermione's concern for Harry must have made an impression on Ron: he says she was "going spare" with worry over what Harry might do. This tells us that Hermione anticipated disaster better than Dumbledore, disagreed with Dumbledore's approach and it sets the pattern for Hermione being 'right' during OOTP, whereas at the end Dumbledore admits to misjudging the situation. It shows Hermione thinking for herself and being prepared to question. By attributing these words to Hermione, Ron makes it clear he didn't think of them: he doesn't say 'we were worried you'd do something'.
8) Harry still feels happy after Hermione tells him Dumbledore made them keep information from him, but feels bad just after Ron begins saying the same thing.
BTW I don't think Ron was consciously 'trying to put a stop to it'. He was just happy to see Harry and, it seems to me, amused by Hermione's reaction. But after that change Ron says a bit more and Harry's mood suddenly deteriorates. It would have been interesting to see whom of Harry and Hermione pulled back first if Ron hadn't interrupted. Or how much longer it would have gone on for
(Evaluna) I loved it all, but especially the bits detailing Harry’s POV and how his [actually rather strong] emotional response is carefully hidden or played down but is present on careful reread. From number 5) above, we know from Hermione’s hug at Harry’s arrival at No.12 is prolonged on her part, until Ron prompts her to let go. However, when you look at number 5 above, plus the “catch her fall” scene the forest, plus the “saving her” [from Grawp] scene shortly thereafter, Harry’s not too keen to let go of Hermione, either. He could have ended contact abruptly and quickly in any of these situations had he so chosen. But in each of these scenes, he chooses instead to hold her. Err... was that right or was that easy? Well, perhaps in this case his choices met both criteria
Who is Hermione's type by Flying Phoenix
I did think about this for a some times now. It’s my question why or better who is Hermione’s type? Much better said is how she chose her friends.
You need to know IMO is it interesting that Hermione has almost a soft spot for Hagrid. I mean in all books she do change her hard way to think about teachers and failures if it comes to Hagrid. For example in OotP she is very mad at Hagrid about Grawp and says she can understand that Umbridge want him away. It’s Harry who looks at her and asks that she don't mean it and he says it rather quietly. Look through this book Harry do react rather tempered but at this point he as quietly.
She had it or has it for Lupin too this soft spot. Now I did think about this and I did come to that Hermione do care for people who have any failures who aren't perfect.
I need to explain this further in a way what might make something’s understandable.
First thing in PS/SS as Hermione did help Neville. This is a person who is clumsy and very far away to be perfect. Than she meet Ron and Harry. She does already know Harry from her books. But he doesn’t look like books do suggest. He isn't perfect. Ron isn't perfect either.
But if I look at Lavender and Parvati this are her roommates though we never saw a scene where there is any closeness. Why? The answer they are to perfect. I don't doubt they have they failures but it’s not that visible like by Ron or Harry.
Now I come to something what I think is important its Hermione’s thinking about selflessness. How did she learn Hagrid to know? As he got Norbert a dragon. For him was nothing more important as this baby-dragon though it could bring him into trouble. Even she was against this I think there started this friendship between her and Hagrid.
Harry and Hermione are much closer to Hagrid as Ron.
By Neville was it just the same he searched after his toad and was even able to search through the whole train on his first day.
Now to Harry its interest that Hermione said before Halloween he is very selfish that’s the reason why it did indeed need a troll to become friends with her. She saw in that moment he isn't that selfish he is rather selfless.
Since this day he showed time and time again he is selfless but not only this he showed bravery too.
I think this is exactly why she said this things in PS/SS how she said it. Harry shows all this things very much. She like this kind off abilities. If you look at Krum. At the QWC Hermione comment that was really brave of him. So he did already solve one point to be interest for her.
Later we get he is a nice guy but if you look at the task2 Harry take Hermione’s attention away from Krum and the reason is that Harry was selfless. He did not only rescue Ron, he did this for Gabriel too.
These things do explain some parts why Hermione react like this about Cho because she is selfish.
Now to Ron: I think this is a problem for R/Hr. I don't say he isn't selfless at times or brave. But he is less selfless as Harry and less brave as Harry.
That say is another point why I doubt R/Hr will happen.
Hermione's attitude to Cho by Evaluna
Harry’s crush on Cho was outstanding from past years and to interfere or seem less than courteous regarding his personal business would seem odd, perhaps even possessive. Especially in light of the fact that Hermione keeps her own affairs so private. Nonetheless, Hermione is constantly finding ways in OotP to initiate conversation regarding Harry’s private business, under the guise of being “helpful”, even if only helpful after the fact. Yet it doesn’t appear she’d appreciate them doing the same thing regarding her private business [Krum & the letters], and even Harry and Ron don’t know if she’s fully levelled regarding Krum. Apparently she knows Harry well enough to know he won’t pry and just brushes Ron off, yet still she probes Harry regarding his business. If she were angry or upset, 1) huge red flag - Harry would wonder what her problem was. Though knowing Harry, he’d probably just assume she was angry about something else and 2) he’d just avoid her mood, so what info would she get with that approach? None.
The clear assumption here being that with Harry, she’s out to obtain information on his business - it’s a consistent pattern in OotP. Whereas with Ron in GoF, she’s affronted that both he and Fleur are being so shallow each in their own respective ways, because it offends her sensibilities and her values as a person. She surely doesn’t appreciate any woman, veela or other, manipulating either of her friends - and there’s evidence of her concern for both Harry and Ron, but Ron is weaker - and Hermione doesn’t favour such shallow behaviour in men either. She doesn’t need further reason based on her character portrait to that point in series; more is possible but speculative. And she’s as a rule not shy about voicing her disapproval to her close friends if she disagrees, whether it’s Harry or Ron. The point is that her reaction to Ron was based on something that deeply offended her and would have done with any close male friend, so she could voice her objections straightaway. Her reaction to Harry crushing on someone else, however, can't reasonably be categorised as a major offence [even if privately it does deeply disturb her]. It goes to notions of fairness and loyalty in friendship, regardless of whether she has undisclosed deeper feelings as well. She may not like Harry crushing on someone else, but it’s not something that gives her reasonable cause to be and act deeply offended. Moreover, showing her negativity regarding Harry’s personal choices will look suspicious, unfounded, and disloyal, as it’s not her place unless and until Cho were to do something really horrible like betray Harry or the DA or some such.
Most of all, Hermione appears to grasp the basic psychology at work here: Harry needed to be free to experience the logical consequences of his choices. He’s maintained this crush at a distance for several years. Only by dating Cho can Harry determine who she is really and what he thinks of her, i.e., whether they’re suited. Only by dating Cho and determining for himself that they don’t suit, can Harry move on. And Hermione was mature enough to understand that if Harry and Cho did suit, at least Harry would finally obtain some personal happiness and she clearly in no way begrudges him that. Really I can’t imagine you’d want to be with anyone who didn’t have your happiness, not their own, as priority. This may have been difficult for Hermione, as we see in the PKA scene before break, but she rises above her own feelings and carefully refrains from saying anything that could be construed as unsupportive.
The train scene by Hope1272
I find the train scene with Draco very telling on two points. One, Draco gets an expected bonus when he tries to, in my opinion, insult Harry. Instead of Harry or even Ron responding to that second best remark, it's Hermione. Draco knows exactly how to get to Ron and he's done so very easily in the past, he even knows how to get to Harry and has done so as well. However, with Hermione, whose grades surpass his and whose ability is nothing to scoff at, the only real weapon he has against her is the "mudblood issue" and perhaps her formerly prominent teeth. But now even that is getting less of a real response from her since "witch-slap heard around the world", her tooth adjustment and the comebacks that refer to his unfortunate stint as a ferret. He has very little to work with until this moment. The moment he refers to Harry being second best, Hermione jumps immediately with a simple and sharp command to shut up. No clever retorts to bluff through whatever she feels this time. Just a simple emotional reaction to something that is painful enough to simply want the bantering to stop. She let down her guard for a moment and now he's on to something about knowing what he can use against her. Malfoy's not stupid. He listens and watches. We see proof of that later in his goading of Harry after the lost Quidditch game. He's been paying attention to Harry's activities with the Weasley's, he knows how much Harry values them. He also knows that even Rita Skeeter wasn't that off the mark about Harry's grief over losing his parents. The animosity is taking a darker tone and the death threat at the end of Book 5 is pointing us there. Malfoy will use what he's learned and he will hurt them, Hermione in particular, in a way they will never see coming.
The second thing I find telling is the focus of the narrative in the scene. JKR focuses on Hermione's reaction to a remark Draco directs at Harry. We see her and only her reaction to this remark. No shared glances between Harry and Ron, no avoided glances between Harry and Ron. No internal dialogue of Harry revisiting his initial reaction to not getting prefect and no glance at Ron reacting to the remark. Draco, momentarily distracted by the implications of Hermione's outburst, returns his focus on Harry and leaves. Now, I'm thinking that if Hermione reacted this way because of Ron, she would turn to look and see how Ron reacted to it. However, it's Harry she turns to look at, sits down and shares another look at Harry. One of the looks would be because of Sirius, I know. But if she were defending Ron's honour, wouldn't we see her at least turn to Ron? Or at least see Harry turn to Ron for that matter? We don't even get a look from Ron's own sister after a remark like that. Malfoy has just touched on a subject that is so sensitive it put Harry and Ron on the outs the year before and all we get is Hermione's reaction. A word, a silent gesture, something thrown to Ron in a show of support would have led me to believe that the remark and reaction were about Ron, but we don't get that. In fact, all we get is how Ron missed even the reference to the "dogging" comment, distancing him even further from what just happened.
This is another reason that I'm just not for a R/Hr pairing. Even in that instance, Harry is still Hermione's primary focus with Ron's feelings being secondary.
Hermione as Harry's light by Evaluna
Quote by Mad-I Moody:
1."Ron's mum's lit a fire in there [Harry's bedroom] and she's sent up sandwiches." -Hermione couldn't know that if she had immediately dashed up to Harry.
2. "Ron and Ginny say that you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo's." - She's obviously talked to them about this at some point between their arrival back from the hospital and her arrival at 12GP.
3. "The others have told me what you overheard last night on the Extendable Ears."
-Does this indicate that she's had time to talk to the other members of the Weasley clan? Sources point to yes!
Now, isn't it sensible to assume that, in the instances wherein Hermione talked to the Weasley family, she was, at least, thoughtful enough to ask about Mr. Weasley?
Saying Hermione came only to be with Harry cannot be true therefore, because:
1. She doesn't go to see him the MOMENT she comes through the door
2. She gets Harry right out of the sulking room and takes him into a room with Ron and Ginny, with whom she has quite obviously been talking.
3. There is no indication that she wants to be alone with Harry
Mad-I: Disagree. Not just from a textual analysis standpoint; there we have each our own interpretation. My strongest disagreement comes from what I see as a critical ‘septology’ issue [overarching theme of all 7 books]: Harry overcoming his own internal darkness [despair, hopelessness, isolation] before able to wage and win [or overcome] the external darkness [Voldy, evil, fear, hatred and division]. See below post. IMO the Hermione as Lifeline or Light for Harry scene is representative of what Harry must confront and for what he must stand and fight:
--darkness and the battle of good over evil,
--despair [depression] and the battle of love over [here, self-] hatred,
--isolation and limitation [e.g., Harry imposes on himself a prison for his mind], and the battle of love as emanation over barriers, constraints, and perceptions
It begins with himself. And IMO it doesn’t end. But anyway, it progresses from there to encompass the world. On his own, this scene shows that Harry is vulnerable in that he needs a source of love [for himself] to sustain him; only then can Harry be a source of love [for the world] in his [upcoming and perhaps ongoing] battle with darkness. Harry needs love in this regard perhaps more than anyone else in the world, and yet he’s had very little of it, with Sirius mostly kept apart from Harry. Except for Hermione, who has always been there for Harry? With Hermione’s return, once more for Harry there is connectedness and hope, and the belief in unlimited horizons and potential - some would call it faith -- when with Hermione. For ship and for series, IMO, I believe that Harry’s ability to acknowledge his need for love [for me, this means for Hermione] is the first step on his path to the light.
What the scene does imply is that Hermione’s conversation with Ron and Ginny and the others’ [may include Fred and George as well] was extremely brief and in the majority focused firmly on Harry. So brief in span that the snow had not yet melted even after climbing the stairs and so focused on Harry and his situation that Hermione had the grasp on all the main details already when she first pounded on the door. This is a young woman on a *mission*. A mission to save Harry. Hermione reaches Harry and saves him from himself, from his dark side, from his own personal hell. I personally think this is one of the most critical scenes in the book for Harry and his battle for good over evil, probably the most important one. The battle is within as well as without, and Hermione is the bringer of light to balance his darkness, to bring balance to his soul AK and Earendil: [thanks for SF ref!] a soul is a universe in and of itself Hr, Hr --> R display other affections that don't require only jealousy. Hermione blushes when Ron mentions Krum not when anybody else mentions it. She displays more consideration for Ron's feelings on minor things than for Harry in mayor things IMHO. Ron praises, defends and teases Hermione in a lot of things that other don't do. I don't see them as jealousy being the only feeling that Ron has for Hermione. He displays concern for her well being (in areas where Harry shows little consideration). He has learn to control himself around her, granted not extreme control but comparing it to GoF he has learn to control himself a lot better and start being a lot nicer to Hermione. Something that I though it showed an improvement in their relationship and that I expected to happened if they were to become a couple.
Okay I quoted this passage by Gilyann's for a few reasons. One mainly being that there are a quite a few bold statements made in it with little textual evidence supporting them. Now perhaps you've already shown these examples before and I simply missed them; so I apologize but as is some of those statements seem baseless to me.
Okay the issue of Hermione blushing when Ron mentions Krum. The fact is Hermione blushed when Ron asked her who she was writing to and she said it was Krum. As is that could simply be seen as her being uncomfortable with HER romantic life. For all her boy/girl advice, she herself isn't that personally experienced in the relationship department. So that's all that blushing could have been about. One could also reinterate the fact that Ron has never been too thrilled with the whole Krum relationship; now was he? Therefore she is uncomfortable because she forsees another possible tantrum by Ron. There is also the whole issue that many agree that Hermione knows Ron has feelings for her; so she is instinctively uncomfortable discussing the boy she's having some sort of relationship with(I say 'some sort' because I really believe Hermione and Krum are just friends) around him because again she would like to avoid some kind of confrontation with him. There are many legitimate reasons as to why Hermione blushed when mentioning Krum to Ron and the truth is Hermione only blushes when he asks who she is writing to. Once Ron says "Krum who" she answers in a very much annoyed and irritated tone, giving the impression of someone who is saying "it's none of your business." There is no blushing about Krum after that.
Okay Gilyann you make the comment that Hermione displays more consideration for Ron's feelings on minor things than Harry's on major things. Now this is an example of a bold statement and one that I really can't see where you're coming from on. Again if you can cite examples, then I'd appreciate it because I really can't see this point AT ALL. I believe Hermione shows consideration for both of her friends but more for Ron? No, I really have never seen that. I know one example you might have mentioned is her softening her feelings when Ron got Percy's letter. The thing persons need to realize is that because Harry's problems are SO big it's hard to look at others problems as significant because his are so life-altering. The fact is the whole issue with Percy's letter WAS major in Ron's life. The boy's brother turned his back on their entire family and proceeded to write to him a letter basically telling him to ditch his best friend, insinuating that his best friend might be dangerous to him, further insulting their parents and you'll think this wasn't big to Ron? Ron who was raised in a very close-knit, family-oriented, family-togetherness manner? Of course this was MAJOR in his life. Of course Hermione was feeling sorry for Ron as any good friend would. (Then again seeing as lately she has become by many the most repulsive character in the book, I could see how one would be surprised by her actually showing emotion). The simple fact is I don't see how and where Hermione has EVER shown more consideration for Ron on minor things as opposed to Harry. EVER. If we are going to discuss her kissing him before his first game and not doing it for Harry's first game; I would like to remind some persons that Harry was in no way in the shape Ron was for his first Quidditch game. He was nervous yes, but he was NOT white with fear as Ron was. Plus Harry was ALOT more confident in his talent than Ron was. Then again that might be because he was way more talented (sorry couldn't help it). So again I really just can't say I see this point at all.
Yes Ron teases and shows consideration for Hermione, as I would expect since they are friends. I have always stated that I am one person who fully believes that Hermione and Ron ARE friends in their own right; I just don't see the great love story OR Hermione having ANY romantic feelings for Ron. That said while Ron does show consideration towards Hermione and sometimes only does light teasing towards her; his feelings have one TOO many times become downright cruel and hurtful with NO provocation whatsoever. Ron from the first time he met Hermione was rude to her. Harry was ONLY rude to Hermione when she interfered in his life; which he had every right to do since it was none of her business (they weren't friends yet). Ron I am sorry lost ALOT of respect in my eyes in GOF. Persons can rationalize it all they want but his behaviour towards Hermione was plain wrong and I could have forgiven it if it was in private but in front of ALL those persons? Personally, I feel that slap Hermione gave to Malfoy in POA she could have used again, cause Ron was definitely asking for it. Again I am not saying that Ron is completely awful to Hermione but to insinuate that he is more considerate of her than Harry? I'm sorry, but someone's going to have to show me some cannon evidence of this because again that one flew over my head completely.
Before I end this I would like to say something. I don't know if it's TOO much fan-fic by persons where the authors tend to distort the characters to suit their ship; but some of the arguments and views of characters by posters of late has been rather, well BRUTAL. It is important to accept that NONE of these kids are perfect; that's what makes them believable. Who would want to read about a hero who could do no wrong? Certainly not me. I should probably point out that the MORE complicated a character is the more they appeal to me. I mean I loved Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights; so go figure. My point is that persons should really stop trying to defend their ship by unfairly characterizing some of the characters. None has been more so than Hermione. One DOES NOT have to support H/Hr but there is no need to turn the girl into some cold-emotionless-insensitive-uselesstoHarryincrisis-annoying person that many are trying to do. The fact is we are not trying to knock Ginny when we say Hermione has been more useful to Harry; it's just that I'm sorry but this is how Jk chose to write it. SHE chose to have Ginny rendered completely useless in the Chamber and to disappear for two books. Not us. So when H/Hr shippers say Hermione is always there for Harry whether physically or emotionally we're not making it up but again that's what's been in the book and unfairly taking shots at Hermione's character does nothing for another ship except to make shippers of H/Hr take shots at characters of the opposing ship. Btw this goes for persons calling Ginny loose or persons acting like Ron is some Malfoy-type character. The kids have ALL faults, period.
98. Ron's suspicions of H/Hr by Flying Phoenix
Some of you say Hermione is mothering Harry, right? If R/Hr come together don't you think this might be a problem for Ron?
I mean this can look fast different and I think Ron is already suspicious about those two. I tell you why I think this.
Just imagine you are Ron and you do like Hermione more as a friend but you aren't aware of it that say you act like a normal friend.
You are since two weeks at the PHQ together with Hermione all what you do is to clean up the house and if you don't clean the house you hear from Hermione how worry she is about Harry. She tells you that she know he might do something stupid if he is left in the dark. Yeah she is even arguing if she should just sent a letter with all explanations to Harry but Dumbledore don't want it. Than you get that Harry was attacked by dementors and going to expel. Hermione off course runs in circles search in every book she can find if they can expel Harry. She even tell you the whole thing what she did found and what this means to Harry. After two weeks you slowly but surely tired of this though yourself are worried but you know he will get out of it. Did I mention that Hermione feels guilty because she know Harry might be furious at you and that she mention this everytime she see Hedwig which did hurt both of you!
Well, you sighs heavily out as you see Harry there and is in the deadly hug of Hermione. Off course all things she did say or make you insane she say it again only much faster but still very long and all the time she hugs your best friend.
After Harry’s outburst is everything fine. Till the day as Harry has his hearing. Again Hermione runs in circles she can't even talk much just because she is so worry. Till Harry comes back and says he is off. Well, you expect she would hug him again but nope she sit only there is shaking something you have never seen before.
Some days later you get the Hogwarts-letter and in it is written you are the new prefect. Hermione is off course a prefect too. So its don't waste long till she is in your room but don't look at you with a bright face she looks at Harry. She thinks Harry is prefect and she is really happy about it. Harry tells her in a very strange if not heartily way he isn't the one that’s you the one. You think how amazing fast her smile can vanish and how fast her whole face looks rather badly shocked. She is speechless though she ask if you sure. Man now you are a little bit mad. Off course you sure on this bloody letter is your name and not Harry Potter for heaven sake. She is embarrassed by that and knows very well she did hit a nerve.
If you didn't get there suspicious than you was it after this fifth year where she did continue where she stopped as Harry did turn up in the PHQ. Harry is always her topic even if he isn't in the room and she even say to you look after him or tell him this from me and you do it because you are the nice guy, the best friend of her.
See that’s all what I want that Ron get a girl who really really likes him and only him and not always speaks about Harry. Do you have any idea how much that can hurt if you are together with someone who is always or nearly the most time worrying about your best friend? This is surely not what Ron deserve. I can't even imagine why people want this for him. See there you see that I really like Ron and that all what I want a girl who like him. I think Luna could be this girl. She is amazing enough. So why not?
Now to my little topic now which I started earlier with this nice perfume quote. I did already state that Hermione dos a great job to shoot down R/Hr with her comments. Now I bring how she seems to ignore Ron. I know it’s not the best quote but I think its interest that after GoF she acts just the same if it comes to the question Harry or Ron.
"Hermione," said Ron in a low and indignant voice, "are you going to stop telling Harry off and listen to Binns, or am I going to have take my own notes?" "You take notes for a change, it won't kill you!"
Just lovely if you ask me.
"Maybe," he said again, in a lower voice, "he's actually trying to open Harry's mind a bit wider...make it easier for You-know--" "Shut up, Ron," said Hermione angrily, „How many times have you suspected Snape, and when have you ever been right? Dumbledore trusts him, he works for the order, that ought to be enough." "He used to be a DE," said Ron stubbornly. "And we've never seen proof that he really swapped sides," "Dumbledore trust him," Hermione repeated. "And if we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone."
"Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn’t mean we all have," said Hermione nastily
"Harry, you're worse than Ron...well, no, you're not," she sighed
This are quotes which are IMO against R/Hr and the perfume quote off course.
99. H/Hr revisited in OOTP by EricaM
It appears to me, as I do my 2nd reread of OotP that there is a lot of summarising/revisiting of H/Hr moments from previous books. It's as if Harry is, perhaps subconsciously, becoming aware (and JKR is reminding the reader) of the impact that Hermione has had in his life. Hermione and the impervius spell; Hermione and Buckbeak (and cinematographically speaking, the imagery makes for very romantic scene: Harry hears someone at the door downstairs and in minutes flat Hermione is knocking on the door demanding that he open it. Cheeks pink from the cold and snowflakes in her hair together again with their old pal Buckbeak); Hermione and Norbert; Hermione the cat; etc.
That coupled with JKR's placement of the characters persuades me even more that it will be H/Hr (if they survive) in the end. It could have been Ginny in the scene in Umbridge’s office. Why didn't JKR gag Hermione and leave Ginny's voice intact. Ginny, who now has spunk, chutzpah, who we know is very capable of pulling the wool over someone's eyes (eg. her Mum) why isn't she the one to spin the yarn for Dolores?
Why did JKR have Harry putting his hand over Hermione's mouth to silence her gasp and not Ron? Harry protecting Hermione from Grawp, Harry protecting Hermione from the DE, etc.
When JKR said that the answer to whether Hermione liked Ron as more than just a friend is in GoF, does that mean Yes or No.
If we assume yes, that that last scene in GoF (with Krum and Fleur) was the beginning of the R/Hr romance. Hermione giving Krum the great kiss off and her scowling at Fleur for kissing her man. Why, then, is it not picking up on in OotP. There is no continuation of this thread. Hermione is writing Krum novel length letters (no kiss off), she and Ron are no further ahead in their relationship, despite being 'together' for an even longer period in the ensuing summer, etc.
However if we assume no. That Hermione doesn't like Ron as more than a friend. That Viktor was closer to the mark, suspecting that Hermione had feelings for Harry because she talked about him often.
It seems to me that this thread is picked up in OotP, starting with the bone crushing hug (you'll notice that Ron and Hermione where not together playing footsies when Harry arrives, the anxiety when waiting to hear about Harry's fate write the trial, asking him to help quiz her with her homework, asking him if he'd like to help knit Elfwear (which screams 'I want to spend time with you') at the same time foregoing an opportunity to spend time with Ron (after he finds out he made the team), etc
100. Ron the wildcard by Flying Phoenix
After my little theory is Ron the wildcard and not Hermione or Harry.
Its Ron’s lack in this book what let me think so and that there are some unspoken things between Harry and Ron. Its still there that Harry overshadowing Ron and its still there that Ron can’t deal with it. Though he much more mature as in GoF.
But this doesn’t say this issue is to end. There are some comments by Ron who let think its not over. First as Harry don’t get expelled:
"I knew it!" yelled Ron, punching the air. "You always get away with stuff."
In other words it’s like in PoA as Ron said if he blew up his aunt he did get expelled. So his opinion hasn’t change.
Later as Hermione did clearly expect that Harry may be the second prefect its again Ron’s reaction what show that he still can’t live to be overshadowed by Harry. He is avoiding this topic as Harry echoing Fred that he caused too much trouble. :"Yeah," said Ron,"yeah I suppose...well, we’d better get our trunks packed, hadn’t we?"
Through the whole Quidditch time its clear that Ron do compare himself with Harry. He always said he isn’t that good and he want sacked from the team. Later as he won the cup his acting is suddenly different lets see what I mean: Harry: "I’m just glad we won, that’s all." "Yeah," said Ron slowly, savouring the words," we won (that’s mean not Harry, Ginny and Ron but not Harry). Did you see the look on Changes face when Ginny got the Snitch right out from under her nose?"
This is a strange way to speak about this topic. I need to explain: First Ron makes clear that Harry didn’t win it was himself and his sister and not Harry. Than Ron mention that Cho (which Harry did like and Ron know that and may think he still like her) was not that good like Ginny, which played on Harry’s position. Than Ron’s reaction as Hermione told him that they weren’t there as once in his live Ron did something without Harry. He is angry of course its quiet normal.
After that is the reason why Ron isn’t that present in OotP not his new status is quiet more a result from GoF. Ron don’t speak his thoughts that free like in GoF and he don’t tell Harry everything to be exactly Ron don’t tell Harry anything. Only small things nothing really important and what he says is again not that helpfully. Not once he tells Harry don’t do this or that what He did in the past. Ron is distant to Harry in a way. Ron is the wildcard because it’s not clear what he really feels.
Well, we guessing he has feelings for Hermione but this don’t need to be right not absolute. Let see this scene as he make the same thing with his hairs like James. He doesn’t do it because of Hermione. He does it for other girls. By James was it different he did it for Lily.
This quote there is something going on between Ron and Hermione can even mean that this was only GoF. This girl who ask JKR wasn’t through that book as she asked. And we don’t know for sure what something means. It can mean it’s foreshadowing something what might happen in book 6 in a non-romantic way.
I can expect that Ron will have a problem if Harry comes back into the team. Now Ron won the cup and will become the captain. Now we know that Ginny was good but not that good like Harry as seeker. With her as seeker was pretty much time for Ron to be the great keeper in that game. So he was the king but if Harry comes back and catches the snitch very much earlier as Ginny you can count that Ron isn’t any longer the King. He isn’t anymore the one who won it will be Harry again.
That’s really a problem if Ron gets nearly everything what he desires and is though not that what he wants just because of Harry’s shadow that’s a major problem. I don’t know exactly how it with the headboy is but I think its voting thing, right? James was very popular at Hogwarts that’s why he was chosen. Let play it through Ron is two years prefect, Capitan, quiditchplayer. He is overshadowed in his prefect abilities by Hermione, in his captain authority by Harry and is it as player.
Harry could be easily voted as headboy because he is popular more as Ron. That’s again something what Ron wanted in this mirror. Let see all his desire are damage by his two best friends. This isn’t good.
I know this isn’t a nice post for Ron but this is only a way to look it. So I didn’t bash Ron here. Don’t think that.
101. Ron and Luna by Hawk92
Now to examine a little evidence for HMS Rooney......
OotP Ch Luna Lovegood pg 189
"You went to the ball with Padma Patil," said a vague voice.
Everyone turned to look at Luna Lovegood, who was gazing unblinkingly at Ron over the top of The Quibbler. He swallowed his mouthful of Frog.
"Yeah, I know I did," he said looking mildly surprised.
"She didn't enjoy it very much," Luna informed him. "She doesn't think you treated her very well, because you wouldn't dance with her. I don't think I'd have minded," she added thoughtfully, "I don't like dancing very much."
She retreated behind The Quibbler again. Ron stared at the cover with his mouth hanging open for a few seconds, then he looked at Ginny for some kind of explanation, but Ginny had stuffed her knuckles in her mouth to stop herself from giggling. Ron shook his head, bemused, then checked his watch.
Emphasis JKR
Now the first thing I want to draw your attention to is the fact that Luna is gazing unblinkingly at Ron. She's staring at him and staring pretty hard. I think that Luna is taking a good long look at Ron and as I'll explain later I think she likes what she sees.
Next we have the fact that Ron swallows his mouthful of Frog. First it's great to see Ron remember his manners for a minute but the fact that Luna made him swallow (a mouthful of Frog no less) suggest that Ron liked Luna's looks as well.
Then we have the fact that Luna knows about Ron and Padma's date at the Yule Ball. More importantly she bothered to remember it. Luna is expressing a curiosity in Ron. Ron being Harry's friend is probably very well known around the school. But Luna is more interested in personal information about Ron.
Luna then points out that she wouldn't have minded going to the Yule Ball with Ron. Even though it seems that a date with Ron can be little or no fun at this point. Luna is dropping a hint at Ron that she wouldn't mind a date with him. After she makes this suggestion she retreats behind the Quibbler so we don't get a reaction from Luna (a brief Interruption in a way).
Ron seeks Ginny’s (stress Ginny and not Hermione) thoughts on what is going on and Ginny's reaction is very interesting. Ginny and Luna know each other and I think that it's possible that in Luna's own way she has told Ginny that she finds Ron attractive and wouldn't mind seeing him.
What is also interesting to note is Ron's reactions to Luna and her comments. Mildly surprised and bemused. Now Ron tends to get mad and angry with Hermione and had Hermione brought up the Yule Ball I think we would have had a different scene here. But it's interesting to note that, as some ships would claim, this was not a good night for Ron as he was supposed to be in the throngs of romantic jealously. But Luna bringing up this night in question doesn't make him mad in any shape or form. Instead he's surprised and amused at Luna talking to him about this supposedly painful night.
Now to finish, I said that Luna probably finds Ron physically attractive. And I think this for a couple of reasons
1) She is gazing at him a little intensely (unblinkingly/staring)
2) She wouldn't have minded going to the Yule Ball with him although she knows little about him personally and what she knows is second hand at this point. So she found Ron rather good looking and wouldn't have minded going with him.
3) I think that she told Ginny at some point that she found her brother to be quite handsome.
(Mad Eye Mike) Ron would LOVE a girl who looked up to him and paid him that kind of attention. To add to Hawk's post, let me point out a couple of other times Luna flirted with Ron:
1. Basically told him she wouldn't mind going on a date with him [as Hawk said]
2. Laughed extra hard and long at his joke on the train
3. Walked around humming "Weasley Is Our King"
4. Called him 'Ronald'
Luna is so into Ron it's not even funny. Ron is as clueless about Luna as Harry is about Hermione.
(Turambar) She also went to a great effort creating that lion's hat for the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, specifically came over to their table and wished Ron good luck not both Harry and Ron.
(Grace Granger) To add on to Hawk's HMS Rooney post:
1. Luna is in a different class year than Padma. We know different years don't interact much. Perhaps, Luna asked Padma about how her night went with Ron to get some dirt on him.
2. Ron acting "bemused" and "mildly surprised"? We all know from previous years how Ron interacts with girls, which is rather brutally. He doesn't act like that with Luna at all.
(MOF) I would just like to add this as a possible sign of Luna's affection for Ron:
I'll carry that owl if you like' said Luna to Harry, reaching out for Pigwidgeon as Neville stowed Trevor carefully in an inside pocket.
'Oh - er - thanks' said Harry, handing her the cage and hoisting Hedwig's more securely into his arms.
Then later...
Luna appeared holding Pigwidegeons cage in her arms; the tiny owl was twittering excitedly as usual.
'Here you are' she said, He's a sweet little owl, isn't he?'
'Er...yeah...he's all right' said Ron gruffly. ' Well, come on, lets get in...what were you saying Harry?'
- chapter: Luna Lovegood.
Well, maybe Luna would just like to help Harry here, but the way she tries to spark an odd conversation with Ron may suggest she carried Pigwidgeon just to talk with Ron
(Flying Phoenix) I have to add one scene to Luna and Ron. This one makes me really smile because this one is so much unexpected that I nearly fall from the chair as I read it.
Rita stared at her. So did Harry. Luna, on the other hand, sang "Weasley is our King" dreamily under her breath and stirred her drink with a cocktail onion on a stick
102. Harry, Hermione flying and love by Turambar
INTRODUCTION
This essay is in three parts and has three objectives.
It aims to look at Harry and Hermione in relation to flying in the HP series and its symbolic link to love.
I'm also looking at its link to their character development which I feel has a more subtle tie-in to the importance of love in the series. At the end of OOTP Dumbledore tells Harry that he has a power (love) that Voldemort does not and it is this power that could defeat the Dark Lord. Harry now has to learn about that power. Thirdly, Hermione's attitudes to flying and to Quidditch and her reactions to games also offer us clues about her relationships with Harry, Ron and Viktor.
To those people who say there is no metaphorical connection between love and flying in the HP series I would say look at the overall story of this series and JKR's extensive use of foreshadowing and symbolism in it. We are not dealing with a realistic, everyday world or mundane situation. The basic concept is of a boy with the power (through love) to vanquish an evil wizard threatening the world.
Thanks to Perdy, Hawk, Flying Phoenix (Phoenix Writer) and Grace Granger for their help.
Part 1) HERMIONE AND FLYING
Hermione's character development over the series can be likened to someone learning to fly and gradually getting better and more confident. She starts off as an insecure person who is a stickler for the rules and relies on books for information.
She becomes friends with the boys and also becomes more relaxed and confident. She realises there are times when rules have to be broken. Her adventures with the boys build her confidence, skills and experience. She has had six adventures/periods of time with Harry away from Ron. Metaphorically she becomes a better flyer. As I explain further on in this part, there is still further development to go. Harry has to learn about the special power he has and I feel that Hermione's character development and their closening relationship suggests that she will be significantly involved in this theme as well.
a) The first lesson
Here I'm going to look at the part of the scene which involves Hermione. JKR makes a grouping of Harry, Hermione and Neville showing their differing fortunes in how the brooms react to their commands.
Hermione, like Harry, comes to Quidditch cold with no prior knowledge or experience of flying before Hogwarts.
Interestingly, so does Neville. Unlike Harry and Hermione, who are Muggle-raised, Neville is a pure-blood but (PS107 The Midnight Duel) "had never been on a broomstick in his life, because his grandmother had never let him near one."
Their first flying lesson takes place before the trio become friends.
Hermione is "almost as nervous about flying as Neville was. This was something you couldn't learn by heart out of a book." She tries, reading Quidditch Through the Ages.
We aren't told how Ron copes at their first flying lesson, JKR focuses on Harry, Neville and Hermione. This is interesting given the later development of these three characters.
We get three different reactions: Harry's broom jumps into his hand at once, Hermione's rolls over on the ground and Neville's doesn't move at all. However shortly afterwards Neville goes for a wild ride and falls and Harry shows his supreme natural talent catching Neville's rememberal.
It's not a stretch, with the aid of hindsight, to say that Harry has huge instinctive abilities; Neville has latent talent that needs to be brought out and harnessed; and Hermione - Miss Reason with the Earth birth sign of Virgo - needs help leaving the ground.
"Perhaps brooms, like horses, could tell when you were afraid, thought Harry; there was a quaver in Neville's voice that said only too clearly that he wanted to keep his feet on the ground." Note here that Harry doesn't include Hermione in that thought.
a) Chasing the key
How well does Hermione fly? The only reference to Hermione flying on a broom is (PS204 Through the Trapdoor) "Hermione rocketed upwards". The word "rocketed" suggests speed. She doesn't crash or fall off or have any nervous reaction or refuse to fly. So from that we can tell that she at least flew competently. In contrast, JKR emphasises problems with Ron's flying: he "crashed into the ceiling and nearly fell off his broom." Ron has been flying all his life, yet with that small description we can see that he's not great at it. If JKR wanted to suggest that Hermione couldn't handle her broom she could have written something similar for her.
Hermione has gone from not being able to get a broom to move earlier in PS to at least being able to fly competently.
Over the same period Hermione has become friends with the boys and become more relaxed about rule-breaking. She's also had to evaluate what is important to her, as exemplified by her speech "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and -"
Flying Phoenix notes: "Before she made friends at Hogwarts Hermione was very strict and didn't break any rules. She did hold by far more onto her books and onto rules. This says that after she made friends she was able to be more herself. That's why she was able to fly."
As the series goes on Hermione becomes more willing to risk her academic future and put her wants aside to help Harry. But at this stage, when Harry suggests going after the Stone she protests "you'll be expelled". After Harry points out that stopping Voldemort from getting the Stone is more important than being expelled and the other two decide to go with him, Hermione still has a safety net:
"But if we get caught, you will be expelled too."
"Not if I can help it," said Hermione grimly. "Flitwick told me in secret that I got a hundred and twelve per cent on his exam. They're not throwing me out after that."
Still, as the flying metaphor in Through the Trapdoor suggests, in terms of character development she's left the ground, she's made progress.
c) Buckbeak
There are two other instances of Hermione flying: on Buckbeak in POA and on a thestral in OOTP.
Buckbeak, as a hippogriff (half griffin, half horse), is a symbol of love and the passages he is involved with need to be considered carefully.
Only Harry on his own; Harry and Hermione together; Harry, Hermione and Sirius; and Sirius on his own have ridden him. (Thanks Grace).
There is also alot of symbolism related to the griffin. The griffin is a legendary creature with the head, beak and wings of an eagle, the body of a lion and occasionally the tail of a serpent or scorpion.
This is important to the theme of harmony between the houses. Gryffindor's name means "golden griffin", the symbol of the house is a lion. We also know that the Sorting Hat thought about putting Harry in Slytherin and Hermione in Ravenclaw (symbol eagle) before putting both in Gryffindor. Harry pulled Gryffindor's sword out of the hat in COS. When he gets his wand in PS, red and gold sparks fly from it (the colours of Gryffindor). His birth sign is the Fire sign of Leo, ruled by the Sun and with the symbol of a lion. This symbolism, when coupled with the hippogriff symbolism suggests Harry and Hermione's coming together may be important to the theme of harmony.
Why is Buckbeak a symbol of love and not impossible love as some people try to make out?
In horse breeding terms let's say the griffin is the sire and the horse is the dam. The coming together of those two creatures represents a triumph over impossibility. Why? Because the idea of a griffin and a horse mating is considered impossible.
But, they DO get together - the impossible becomes possible, it becomes reality.
The offspring of that mating (love) is the hippogriff - the living embodiment of 'impossible' love being made possible.
Therefore, the hippogriff, the second generation, is a symbol of love, born of difficult beginnings.
The fact that it is a symbol of love is the essence of the hippogriff's identity. That has to be the reason for JKR using this creature, as opposed to a winged horse for instance.
The scenes where Harry rides him and Harry and Hermione ride him, directly tap into the key theme in the series of the importance of love.
If we look at their first meeting with Buckbeak (POA89 Talons and Tea Leaves) , it's rather heavy with symbolism.
JKR outlines the process of approaching and dealing with the hippogriff. Love is not a cute, cuddly, soft and harmless creature. It is fierce, dignified, powerful and demands to be treated with caution and respect. Harry, being the boldest, is the first to approach, to be accepted, to fly on Buckbeak.
FP points out there is a connection there with flying on the broomstick: "Harry is in this scene the only one who is able to fly Buckbeak. This is interesting that someone who had an extraordinary ability to fly a broom in his first lesson like he never did something different is also able to ride a hippogriff."
Note that Ron, at no stage, touches Buckbeak. At one point it says "Ron and Hermione practised on the chestnut, while Harry watched." They never fly on the chestnut separately or together. Even in GOF, when they see Buckbeak in the cave, Ron does not touch him: "Buckbeak bent his scaly front knees, and allowed Hermione to rush forward and stroke his feathery neck." Ron has no interaction with Buckbeak in OOTP. Ron does not fly on any hippogriff.
Malfoy, whose heart is full of malice, is cut by Buckbeak's talons. This occurs after he looks "disdainful" and insults Buckbeak:
"This is very easy," Malfoy drawled..."I knew it must have been, if Potter could do it... I bet you're not dangerous at all, are you?" he said to the hippogriff. "Are you, you ugly great brute?"
When Harry first flies on Buckbeak he notes he "wasn't sure where to hold on", its wings "were beating uncomfortably on either side of him, catching him under his legs and making him feel he was about to be thrown off" and "the glossy feathers slipped under his fingers and he didn't dare get a stronger grip." What's more instead of the smooth action of the broomstick "he now felt himself rocking backwards and forwards." As he lands he feels "he was going to slip off over the beak" and "just managed to hold on".
In other words about as difficult a ride, in different ways, as Harry could have. Love is difficult and hard to navigate and Harry is nervous and insecure on his first attempt.
Malfoy tries to have Buckbeak killed, but the hippogriff is saved (POA302 Hermione's Secret) by Harry and Hermione using the time turner.
"This is it, Hermione -"
Hermione put her hands on Buckbeak's back and Harry gave her a leg up...he climbed up in front of her...
"Ready?" he whispered to Hermione. "You'd better hold on to me -"
He nudged Buckbeak's sides with his heels. Buckbeak soared straight into the dark air. Harry gripped his flanks with his knees, feeling the great wings rising powerfully beneath them. Hermione was holding Harry very tightly around the waist; he could hear her muttering. "Oh, no - I don't like this - oh, I really don't like this -"
...she took out her wand, still gripping the back of Harry's robes with her left hand. "Alohomora!" The window sprang open...
The hippogriff gave one sweep of its mighty wings and they were soaring upwards again, high as the top of the West Tower. Buckbeak landed with a clatter on the battlements and Harry and Hermione slid off him at once."
Notice how different this scene is from Harry first flight. He's confident and assured, the rock for Hermione to hold onto. There's a lovely moment of intimacy when he whispers for Hermione to hold onto him. And instead of stressing uncertainty and difficulty, JKR flourishes her romantic imagery: "soared", "dark air", "great wings", "powerfully beneath them", "sweep of its mighty wings", "soaring".
Hermione's nervousness is short-lived and comparable to Harry's on his first flight. We can't read her thoughts as we can Harry's so JKR writes her holding tightly onto Harry and muttering her unease, just after they take off. But that's the extent of it, it doesn't compare to her frightened state when meeting Grawp for instance (OOTP614 Grawp) when "Hermione clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering." She only makes the one comment - at the START of the flight - and by the time they reach Sirius has clearly regained her composure to tell him to stand back and she unlocks the window.
Love makes her nervous at first, but she adapts quickly and Harry is the one she is holding on to.
Hawk points out that if Hermione were so scared of flying on Buckbeak as R/Hr and H/G shippers contend why is she so pleased to see Buckbeak the next time, enough to "rush forward" to stroke him?
The time-turner adventure together has a great influence on the development of Harry and Hermione's relationship, too much to go into in this essay. But it's after this period that we really see them becoming much closer together.
JKR has personalised the hippogriff symbolism to Buckbeak - not several hippogriffs - Harry, Hermione and Sirius.
Hagrid owned Buckbeak initially but he doesn't fly on Buckbeak and as far as he is aware the hippogriff just escaped. He hasn't had any contact with Buckbeak since Harry and Hermione removed him in POA.
Another reason why I don't include Hagrid in the symbolism, is that his involvement is a part of JKR's set up for the presence of Buckbeak in the series, just as it is for Norbert and the thestrals, for instance. He looks after and teaches about magical creatures. His interest in strange creatures is a useful part of the plot - Aragog, for instance.
It isn't just a case of bean-counting: looking at every person in a scene and thinking their presence carries equal weight or has equal meaning. You have to assess the dynamics of a particular scene and look at what the author is trying to say and where's she headed. Sometimes patterns emerge over a period. We have a recurring theme of Harry, Hermione and Sirius interacting with Buckbeak over the past three books. There is also a recurring theme of Malfoy's evil crew trying to sabotage Buckbeak. It's there in the text.
In OOTP after Harry has his snake dream he retreats further away from the Weasley’s and Sirius to take refuge in Buckbeak's room, and is feeding the hippogriff when Hermione comes to his rescue. Mention is even made of the hippogriff to draw attention to his presence as Harry opens the door to her. Hermione's love for Harry makes her turn her back on a skiing holiday with her family at Christmas so she can help him. She draws him out of the room and is the catalyst for drawing him out of his depression. Ron and Ginny help her but only after JKR has shown them, the other Weasley’s and Sirius to be ineffective in dealing with Harry.
As I mentioned, the other interesting thing is the way 'anti-love' symbols come up against the hippogriff: in POA Draco is injured by Buckbeak and then with the help of his father and Macnair (both Death Eaters) try to have the hippogriff killed; in OOTP Kreacher injures Buckbeak to keep Sirius busy tending to him and out of the way when Harry tries to contact Sirius. And then there is this curious scene at the DOM:
(OOTP707 Beyond the Veil) "The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe...nobody seemed to realise that Harry was dying...Neville had come lunging out of nowhere; unable to articulate a spell, he had jabbed Hermione's wand hard into the eyehole of the Death Eater's mask. The man relinquished Harry at once in a howl of pain...The Death Eater keeled over backwards and his mask slipped off: it was Macnair, Buckbeak's would-be killer."
JKR never lets the reader forget that even though Hermione is incapacitated, it's her wand that Neville is using. Hermione's wand saves Harry from being killed by the man who tried to kill Buckbeak.
d) The Thestrals
With this part on the thestrals I'm looking at Hermione's character development and flying.
The thestrals are symbols of death, only people who have witnessed death can see them. JKR likes her sly little jokes (OOTP168 Luna Lovegood "I'm nobody," said Neville i.e. 'Neville Nobody') and Hermione IS a 'seeing is believing' person (not that I'm saying the thestrals are designed with Hermione in mind).
But while starting from a position of rationality, Hermione's interaction with the Thestrals, Luna and the prophesy in OOTP ultimately demonstrate her developing open-mindedness and willingness to understand.
Her attitudes are similar to Harry's. For instance when Tonks asks Harry if he has seer blood (OOTP426 St Mungo's Hospital) he thinks "of Professor Trelawney" and feels "insulted". But he has an advantage over Hermione - in being ready to believe in the unlikely - in that he has heard Trelawney give a real prophesy, has had dreams connected to real events and is able to see the Thestrals.
They both have a healthy scepticism and ability to analyse and question, Hermione more so than Harry. Harry is more impulsive and more open to the unusual. Luna could be important in BOTH Harry and Hermione helping Harry to wield the power he has that Voldemort doesn't.
With the prophecy, Hermione shows a marked change in attitude:
(OOTP748 The Second War Begins) "Bet Dumbledore wishes he could've got rid of Trelawney for good," said Ron. "Mind you the whole subject's useless if you ask me, Firenze isn't a lot better..."
"How can you say that?" Hermione demanded. "After we've just found out that there are real prophecies."
Remember, this is the girl who considered Trelawney to be a fraud and walked out of divination. I don't for a moment believe Hermione will start to believe in superstitious nonsense, but I think she will be less inclined to dismiss the unusual and the bizarre out of hand. Remember also that Hermione studies astrology and arithmancy, two subjects related to divination. What it does is bring her closer to Harry and Dumbledore's viewpoints. Remember Dumbledore did not believe Trelawney had a real gift as a seer until he saw her make a prophecy and he also told Harry in POA that she had now made (only) two real predictions.
Employing the flying metaphor again, Hermione is now skimming the treetops.
With Luna, Hermione is initially dismissive of her ideas (represented by the Quibbler) and worried by her attention to Harry:
(OOTP236 Detention with Dolores) "People used to believe there were no such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!"
"Well, they were right, weren't they?" said Hermione impatiently. "There weren't any such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack."...
"D'you mind not offending the only people who believe me?" Harry asked Hermione.
"Oh, for heaven’s sake, Harry, you can do better than her," said Hermione. "Ginny's told me all about her."
(Note that Hermione checks out ALL her opposition, previous, current and potential: Ginny, Cho and Luna). But by the end Hermione is doing her best to be nice to Luna:
(OOTP747 The Second war Begins) "We're going to go on an expedition to Sweden this summer to see if we can catch a Crumple-Horned Snorkack."
Hermione seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then said, "That sounds lovely."
Again a direct change from earlier. Hermione is won over by Luna's helpfulness (the Rita article, the Thestrals, the DOM), the fact that she recognises there could be some wheat among the chaff of Luna's ideas and she perceives Luna's romantic interest is in Ron, not Harry.
Some H/G and R/Hr shippers accuse Hermione of being excessively rational, extremely tactless, unemotional (but also at times excessively emotional) and lacking understanding. This scene, as Perdy pointed out to me, shows that she is interested in the thestrals and wants to understand them. There's also a nice moment between Harry and Hermione where Hermione realises the implications of what she's said and Harry reassures her immediately that he isn't offended.
(OOTP398 The Eye of the Snake) "Thestrals are fine"...
"Umbridge said they're dangerous," said Ron.
"Well, it's like Hagrid said, they can look after themselves,' said Hermione impatiently, 'and I suppose a teacher like Grubbly-Plank wouldn't usually show them to us before NEWT level, but, well, they are very interesting, aren't they? The way some people can see them and some can't! I wish I could.'
'Do you?' Harry asked her quietly.
She looked suddenly horrorstruck. 'Oh, Harry - I'm sorry - no, of course I don't - that was a really stupid thing to say.'
'It's OK,' he said quickly, 'don't worry.'
Three of the six who go to the DOM (Harry, Luna, Neville) can see them and the others (Ron, Hermione, Ginny) cannot. JKR clearly describes all three who cannot see the thestrals as being nervous and the reason why. Hermione's nervousness is not simply because of flying:
"Ron, Hermione and Ginny, however, were still standing motionless on the spot, open-mouthed and staring.
"What?" he said.
"How're we supposed to get on?" said Ron faintly. "When we can't see the things?"....
She pulled them over to the other Thestrals standing around and one by one managed to help them on to the back of their mount. All three looked extremely nervous as she wound their hands into their horse's mane and told them to grip tightly....
"This is mad," Ron murmured..."Mad if I could just see it-"....
"This is bizarre!" Harry barely heard Ron yell from somewhere behind him, and he imagined how it must feel to be speeding along at this height with no visible means of support.....
Hermione and Ginny touched down on either side of him: both slid off their mounts a little more gracefully than Ron, though with similar expressions of relief at being back on firm ground."
e) Conclusions
JKR's intent is clearly not to make Harry and Hermione move towards the more superstitious, at times unquestioning, prejudiced attitudes of Ron (for example his instant acceptance of Umbridge's view of thestrals, his views on house elves, werewolves, half-humans and giants, Grims, love potions and so on).
But she does want them to develop the instinctive, tolerant, open-minded, caring sides of their characters. Not only the love theme but also the theme of harmony between the houses is related to this. As Dumbledore says love is "a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." A state beyond only intellectual rationality on the one hand and mere physical attraction on the other, though both elements are part of it.
R/Hr and H/G shippers have sometimes accused Hermione of lacking composure in tight action situations. Some have also used Ginny's flying ability and Hermione's supposed lack of interest and ability at Quidditch as a central plank in their argument about why they consider Ginny to be suitable for Harry and Hermione unsuitable.
FP points out that the fact Harry is good at flying and Hermione merely competent works in H/Hr's favour: "Hermione isn't as talented at flying as Harry. It says she needs encouragement to do so. Is it Harry someone who can fly very well. This say that if we say flying is a metaphor for love then Hermione is only be able to love if Harry helps her and vice versa. This puts Ginny in a completely different light that's why H/G can't work because Ginny is able to fly. She doesn't need Harry's help. This implies she is able to help someone else who can't fly alone, probably Neville? That's why H/C couldn't work, just from the metaphor POV."
With the sole exceptions of the scene in OOTP when Grawp lunges for her and short moments of indecision by the Devil's Snare in PS and the Whomping Willow in POA, Hermione has consistently shown she can think and act under pressure. She has been more effective in action scenes than Ron or Ginny. And she can fly at least competently.
She had valid reasons for nervousness on Buckbeak and the thestral but was able to cope. Hermione has also been up high towers at Hogwarts in PS (Norbert), POA (rescuing Sirius) and in OOTP (the astronomy exam) and in the top box at the QWC in GOF. So I don't think she is scared of heights or of flying itself. If we look again at the flying metaphor in relation to Buckbeak, her nervousness suggests she is not afraid of love, just nervous at the process of falling in love. It's an unfamiliar journey with an unknown destination
Part 2) HERMIONE, HARRY AND QUIDDITCH GAMES
We get a lot of information about character development and interaction from these games. There is also some romantic symbolism as I'll point out.
a) PS Gryffindor vs. Slytherin
Hermione 'saves' Harry in his very first game as seeker. Quirrell jinxes his broom and Snape mutters a counter curse.
(PS139 Quidditch) "Harry's broom had given a wild jerk and Harry swung off it. He was now dangling from it, holding on with only one hand.
"He's doing something - jinxing the broom," said Hermione.
"What should we do?"
"Leave it to me."
The first thing to note is JKR does not make this a joint R/Hr effort to save Harry. It's Hermione to the rescue alone. And Hermione wants to do it herself, she doesn't require or want Ron's help.
"It was enough. Up in the air Harry was suddenly able to clamber back onto his broom."
A sentence later and Harry catches the snitch and wins the game for Gryffindor. Nevermind that Hermione was wrong about who was causing the problem, her actions saved Harry and enabled him to win.
a) PS Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff
(PS163 Nicolas Flamel) "Ron didn't answer; Snape had just awarded Hufflepuff a penalty...Hermione, who had all her fingers crossed in her lap, was squinting fixedly at Harry....
"You know how I think they choose people for the Gryffindor team?" said Malfoy...."It's people they feel sorry for. See, there's Potter, who's got no parents, then there's the Weasleys, who've got no money - you should be on the team, Longbottom, you've got no brains."
Both Ron and Neville respond to Draco's taunts but Hermione never takes her eyes off Harry and is oblivious to what they are saying:
"I'm warning you, Malfoy - one more word -"
"Ron!" said Hermione suddenly, "Harry -!"
"What? Where?"
Harry had suddenly gone into a spectacular dive...Hermione stood up, her crossed fingers in her mouth, as Harry streaked towards the ground like a bullet.
"You're in luck, Weasley, Potter's obviously spotted some money on the ground!" said Malfoy.
Ron snapped. before Malfoy knew what was happening, Ron was on top of him, wrestling him to the ground. Neville hesitated, then clambered over the back of his seat to help.
"Come on, Harry!" Hermione screamed, leaping on to her seat to watch as Harry sped straight at Snape - she didn't even notice Malfoy and Ron rolling around under her seat, or the scuffles and yelps coming from the whirl of fists that was Neville, Crabbe and Goyle."
What is the point of this little scene? Why do we need so much detail about how Ron, Hermione and Neville are faring while Harry plays? Why does JKR break away from her usual Harrycentric viewpoint to focus on his friends? Why write it in this way? Why not for instance show Hermione verbally defending Ron and Neville while trying to keep an eye on the game?
What JKR does is show that the only thing important to Hermione here is what Harry is doing, and what he is doing away in the sky takes precedence over what Ron and Neville are doing. And Ron's concentration on Harry is not as great as hers: he allows himself to be distracted by Draco.
Even at this stage, in PS, Hermione is myopic when it comes to Harry. All other boys - Ron, Neville and later Viktor - play second fiddle. Harry is simply more important to her.
This has to be the main point of the scene. What are the alternatives? The need for yet another scene of Malfoy taunting Ron about his family? I very much doubt it. Sure the Malfoy/Weasley fight and Neville's development are aspects of the scene but the central fact is this: Hermione is ONLY focused on Harry. She doesn't look at the others. She is oblivious to them.
"Ron! Ron! Where are you? The game's over! Harry's won! We've won! Gryffindor are in the lead!" shrieked Hermione, dancing up and down on her seat and hugging Parvati Patil in the row in front."
Again JKR emphasises Ron's inability to register on Hermione's radar screen. She has no idea where he is.
Anybody would think Hermione was a huge Quidditch fan from this display. In fact it's not until OOTP - and Harry is off the team - that she expresses opinions on the game: (OOTP507 Seen and Unforeseen) "That's the trouble with Quidditch it creates all this bad feeling and tension between the houses...It's only a game, isn't it?" The PS scene gives an obvious clue as to why she's so mad keen at this stage: "Harry's won! We've won!" It's more Harry's victory than the team's victory.
Hawk points out to me that there's a parallel here between Hermione/Ron in the PS Quidditch scene and Hermione/Krum in the way Hermione focuses on Harry when he's achieving something and ignores Ron/Viktor.
In (GOF438 The Second Task) "Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself...but Hermione brushed the beetle away impatiently and said, "You're well outside the time limit, though, Harry...Did it take you ages to find us?" And "Fleur was clapping very hard, too, but Krum didn't look very happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen."
A scene can tell us more than one thing. The fact that the beetle (Rita) is there is important, but so is the developing character interaction.
c) COS Gryffindor vs. Slytherin
Note there's a parallel between Harry catching the snitch here after a bludger smashes into his elbow and breaks his arm, and Viktor catching the snitch at the Quidditch World Cup after a bludger smashes into his face and breaks his nose. My point here is this adds to the extensive array of similarities between Harry and Krum which are rather interesting considering 1) he is a total opposite to Ron 2) Hermione is attracted to Viktor and goes with him to the Yule Ball and 3) Krum becomes jealous and suspicious of her relationship with Harry. One has to ask why does JKR write it that way?
d) COS Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff
(COS189 Cornelius Fudge) "The voice!" said Harry, looking over his shoulder, "I just heard it again - didn't you?"
Ron shook his head, wide-eyed. Hermione, however, clapped a hand to her forehead.
"Harry - I think I've just understood something! I've got to go to the library!"
And she sprinted away, up the stairs.
"What does she understand," said Harry distractedly, still looking around, trying to tell where the voice had come from.
"Loads more than I do," said Ron, shaking his head.
"But why's she got to go to the library?"
"Because that's what Hermione does," said Ron shrugging. "When in doubt goes to the library."
Hermione makes the connection between Harry being able to speak and understand Parseltonge and the fact that no one else can hear the voice. She goes to the library to find out about snakes.
Harry immediately understands, as distracted as he is, that she has caught on to something specific. This an early sign of Harry and Hermione's developing mental rapport, also shown a chapter earlier during the trio's discussions over the Riddle diary.
Ron, however, makes clueless, general comments about Hermione that show his limited understanding of her. The first comment directly compares himself to her, showing he's totally unaware she's hit on something.
"Then she lowered the megaphone and beckoned Harry over to her.
"Potter, I think you'd better come with me..."
Wondering how she could possibly suspect him this time, Harry saw Ron detach himself from the complaining crowd; he came running up to them as they set off towards the castle. To Harry's surprise, Professor McGonagall didn't object.
"Yes, perhaps you'd better come too, Weasley."...
"This will be a bit of a shock," said Professor McGonagall in a surprisingly gentle voice."
McGonagall calls off the match because Hermione has been petrified. Her only interest initially is to take Harry to see Hermione. She does not think about finding Ron and taking him too. Notice that Ron has to come running over to them and join them himself "as they set off towards the castle". They are already on their way.
And then McGonagall is only lukewarm about Ron's presence. She virtually says 'on second thoughts, perhaps you should see her too.'
Why is this? The boys became friends with Hermione at the same time, the three of them have been inseparable ever since. Why single Harry out? Why does JKR write it this way? Why not have it as the film does (no doubt for simplification) and say "you and I must find Mr Weasley. There is something the both of you need to see." A very subtle point like that would just seem confusing on screen.
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that JKR is subtly showing that McGonagall has already seen something special in Harry and Hermione's relationship that Hermione does not have with Ron.
With Harry destined to remain clueless about his deepening feelings for Hermione for several more books, JKR has to find subtle ways, apart from Harry's thoughts, to show this. One of them is to have others sense there's something extra there.
H/Hr shippers could be accused of reading too much into it. Except that 1) there are two other occasions in the books where McGonagall appears to reveal she knows Harry and Hermione have a special relationship 2) a number of other people have been shown to believe the same thing at various times and 3) a number of plot clues that we now know were foreshadowing were written with similar sleight of hand.
For those who say 'well in that case why include Ron at all', I would say the alternative - Harry seeing Hermione alone - would require JKR to change her intention of making a subtle point about McGonagall's perspective.
The other two McGonagall moments are these:
(COS123 The Chamber of Secrets): "We were - we were -" Ron stammered, "we were going to - to go and see -"
"Hermione," said Harry. Ron and Professor McGonagall both looked at him....
"we thought we'd sneak into the hospital wing, you know, and tell her the Mandrakes are nearly ready and, er, not to worry."
Professor McGonagall was still staring at him, and for a moment Harry thought she was going to explode, but when she spoke, it was in a strangely croaky voice.
"Of course," she said, and Harry, amazed, saw a tear glistening in her beady eye. "Of course, I realise this has all been hardest on the friends of those who have been...I quite understand. yes Potter, of course you may visit Miss Granger."...As they turned the corner, they distinctly heard Professor McGonagall blow her nose."
(OOTP224 Professor Umbridge): "Didn't you listen to Dolores Umbridge's speech at the start-of-term feast, Potter?"
"Yeah," said Harry. "Yeah...she said...progress will be prohibited or...well, it meant that...that the Ministry of Magic is trying to interfere at Hogwarts."
Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk and held open the door for him.
"Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate," she said, pointing him out of her office.
Looked at separately these are three subtle, minor moments, but looked at collectively they show McGonagall sees an extra closeness between Harry and Hermione than between Ron and Hermione.
e) POA Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff
This is the most symbolically significant of the Quidditch matches. There are also interesting passages that relate to the trio's relationship.
Essentially Harry is going for the snitch when he sees Sirius (as a dog) and the dementors, faints and falls off his broom. Cedric gets the snitch and Hufflepuff win.
It is significant because this is the first and only time that Harry fails to catch the snitch; the first and only time that the team he is playing for loses.
And Cedric is the one who beats him to the snitch just as Cedric is the one who beats him to Cho's affections: Cedric asks Cho - Harry's first 'love' - to the Yule Ball before Harry, he becomes her boyfriend before Harry does.
This is also the first time he hears his mother's last words in his head.
This is the end for Harry's first broomstick, his first key possession. After he falls off it hits the Whomping Willow and is smashed to pieces (rather like a broken relationship?). Hermione shows him the busted bits (rather like how she tells him Cho is with someone else at the end of OOTP?).
And finally, this allows Sirius to buy Harry the Firebolt, a broom Harry thinks when he first sees one in Diagon Alley "he had never wanted anything so much in his whole life." A broom superior to the Nimbus and far more precious to Harry. He gets it and loses it on Christmas Day, thanks to Hermione who guesses correctly that it is from Sirius and has McGonagall check it for jinxes.
Once again we have the recurring symbolic triangle as with Buckbeak: Harry, Hermione and Sirius, whom Harry comes to love as a father/brother figure.
There are a couple of scenes to look at. When the game starts it is raining heavily and Harry can't see properly. As Perdy has pointed out before, there is a pattern in the books and films of Hermione clearing Harry's vision.
(POA132 Grim Defeat) "Unless we get the snitch soon, we'll be playing into the night."
"I've got no chance with these on," Harry said exasperatedly, waving his glasses.
At that very moment, Hermione appeared at his shoulder; she was holding her cloak over her head and was inexplicably beaming.
"I've had an idea Harry!" Give me your glasses, quick!"
He handed them to her and, as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said "Impervious!".
"There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. "They'll repel water!"
Wood looked as though he could have kissed her.
"Brilliant!" he called hoarsely after her.
Hermione's spell had done the trick. Harry was still numb with cold, still wetter than he'd ever been in his life, but he could see."
Hermione shows her understanding and concern for Harry in anticipating his problem and working out how to solve it. Rather like the DA coins scene in OOTP she wows those present with her brilliance. Oliver Wood, like Terry Boot in OOTP, is the person to fully appreciate what she does. Harry, who is used to her brilliance, tends to expect it, just as he has come to expect her (in OOTP) to follow him and to be extremely loyal to him. But her help gives Harry fresh hope and it is only the sudden arrival of the dementors that dashes it.
FP points out that: "JKR didn't need to write this. If Harry falls anyway from his broom and loses this game, what's the point of this scene?"
(POA135 Grim Defeat) When Harry comes to in his hospital bed after falling off we get reactions from his Quidditch teammates. Fred is described as "extremely white" and Alicia as "shaking". Then we get this reaction from Hermione, some time after Harry awakes and quite a long time after Dumbledore would have ascertained that Harry was concussed, not dead: "Hermione made a small, squeaky noise. her eyes were extremely bloodshot."
JKR emphasises the intensity of Hermione's reaction. She is unable to speak. Then we are told: "After 10 minutes or so, Madam Pomfrey came over to tell the team to leave him in peace.... Ron and Hermione moved nearer to Harry's bed...."Dumbledore was really angry," Hermione said in a quaking voice."
After all this time Hermione finally gets some words out, and she's still struggling to control her emotions, as evidenced by her "quaking voice".
Hermione never shows this sort of intensity over Ron. Ron has also been knocked out - in PS and POA In PS Hermione "screamed but stayed on her square" and then went on with Harry. Neither of them goes over to Ron to check he's okay. In POA she screams again. "Harry and Hermione dashed over to Ron. 'What did he do to him?' Hermione whispered." And that's it. She then goes on with Harry once again. In neither case do they even discuss splitting up and one going on and the other going for help.
An R/Hr shipper once told me, in explaining the difference, 'well she was scared that Harry had died when he fell off the broomstick.' True, but she had plenty of time to recover and find out he was just concussed between moving from the pitch to the hospital wing. That's the first thing she would have found out. And also in the PS scene it's clear that she's not sure Ron has ONLY been knocked out:
"Harry and Hermione charged through the door and up the next passageway.
"What if he's -?"
"He'll be all right," said Harry, trying to convince himself. "What do you reckon's next?"
Harry is now so used to Hermione choosing to go with him to support him over staying behind to be with and support Ron that in (OOTP604 Grawp) he pledges his and Hermione's help to Hagrid three times without consulting her. More on that later.
What JKR is showing here is that Hermione displays the concern a normal friend would show for Ron. But her feelings for Harry are deeper and more intense, though in my opinion it isn't until the end of GOF that she realises what that means.
After Ron is attacked by Sirius we hear secondhand from Hagrid that Hermione was "really upset." If that was so significant why didn't JKR write Hermione going over to Ron to say she was glad he was okay after he was attacked? In comparison Hermione breaks her silence towards Harry to speak up when she finds he's thinking about going to Hogsmeade. One friend has just been attacked by a supposed knife-wielding serial murderer, the other friend is thinking of going to Hogsmeade in broad daylight where there's an extremely minor chance that Sirius could see him. Which is more serious?
f) POA Gryffindor vs. Ravenclaw
The significance of this game is that Harry meets Cho for the first time. He is in the midst of a dispute with Hermione who has stopped talking to him after he sided with Ron over Scabbers.
(POA195 Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw) "Only one person wasn't joining in the festivities. Hermione, incredibly, was sitting in a corner attempting to read an enormous book... Harry broke away... and went over to her.
"Did you even come to the match?" he asked her.
"Of course I did," said Hermione in a strangely high-pitched voice, not looking up. "And I'm very glad we won and I think you did really well, but I need to read this by Monday."
"Come on, Hermione, come and have some food," Harry said, looking over at Ron and wondering whether he was in a good enough mood to bury the hatchet.
"Anyway...." she glanced over at Ron, too, "he doesn't want me to join in."
There was no arguing with this, as Ron chose that moment to say loudly, "if Scabbers hadn't just been eaten, he could have had some of these Fudge Flies, he used to really like them -"
Hermione burst into tears. Before Harry could say or do anything she had...still sobbing, run towards the staircase to the girls dormitory and out of sight.
"Can't you give her a break?" Harry asked Ron quietly.
"No," said Ron flatly. "If she just acted like she was sorry - but she'll never admit she's wrong, Hermione. She's still acting like Scabbers has gone on holiday or something."
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the fight, Ron should have felt remorse at making Hermione cry and seized the opportunity to make up to her. Instead his hard attitude is followed by Hermione not approaching HIM when he is attacked that very night by Sirius - perhaps her harsh inaction there is a consequence of his unfeeling behaviour to her. For those who subscribe to the fights + tension + insensitivity + hurt = love view of the world, this is a sign about how sensitive Hermione is to Ron's opinion. A far more likely conclusion is that she's hurt by his nastiness as anyone would be if their friend was being nasty to them.
And really, logically, why would Hermione feel goodwill, let alone attraction for Ron after his behaviour when Harry is the one being sensitive to her? Harry, who also jumped on a troll for her - becoming a real hero to her and not just one by reputation - and is also intelligent and not to mention an athletic sports star....
The fights in POA make interesting re-reading after OOTP. What catches Hermione's attention with her questioning, laterally-thinking mind in POA and the Sirius debate in OOTP is the lack of proof of a crime. But she's learnt from the Firebolt incident - the worst period of her friendship with Harry - of the need to persuade and stick with him rather than allowing the relationship to deteriorate to the extent of not talking. Ron is in OOTP a shadow of his former cocky self and Harry is no longer worried about speaking his mind to Ron and risking a fallout and their friendship. (For example Harry's mentioning of Ron's acting the hero comment from GOF in the Sirius debate in OOTP and also the saving "your sister" comment).
With the Firebolt fight (which I'll discuss later) and this one it's clear that Harry and Hermione can't stay away from each other or be upset with each other for long. It's really Ron who prolongs both fights and Harry who wants Hermione back with them. In this scene Ron appears to notice Harry trying to draw Hermione back and deliberately raises the subject of Scabbers to let both know that the trio is not going to be restored until he's good and ready.
The situation simply wouldn't occur now post-OOTP. Ron's opinions, influence and presence matter less to both Harry and Hermione than they once did. Ron and Hermione used to compete with each other to influence Harry. Now Harry and Hermione debate with each other and Ron watches on, lending support to one or the other.
Ron's slight distancing from Harry has occurred as 1) Harry's attitude towards the Weasleys as a family has changed and 2) he has grown closer to Hermione.
g) Quidditch scenes in OOTP
First of all why is Ron worried that Harry will "laugh" at him if he finds out he is trying out for Gryffindor? Why is Ron "immensely relieved" when Harry says he thinks it's a great idea? Ron has concerns about his status in relation to those of his two best friends. It seems clearer after reading OOTP that the Yule Brawl was largely sparked by Ron's jealousy over WHO Hermione went with - Viktor, a famous quidditch player, he laughed at the idea of her going with Neville - mixed with the kind of possessiveness he showed towards Ginny and her boyfriends in OOTP. There is probably some attraction by Ron towards Hermione as well. When he has a bit of limelight himself he's immediately keen to branch out from the trio (after the Second Task in GOF, after his Quidditch win in OOTP) in seeking attention.
When Ron makes the team, Hermione is pleased for him as a friend would be, but she's not overly excited. In fact she falls asleep:
(OOTP248 Detention with Dolores) "I can't believe it - where's Hermione gone?"
"She's there," said Fred, who...pointed to an armchair by the fire. Hermione was dozing in it.
"Well she said she was pleased when I told her," said Ron, looking slightly put out.....
"I'm going to bed. Tell Ron for me, will you?"
"Oh no," said Hermione, looking relieved, "if you're going that means I can go too, without being rude. I'm absolutely exhausted and I want to make some more hats tomorrow. Listen you can help me if you like..."
Harry looked into her face, which was shining with glee, and tried to look as though he was vaguely tempted by this offer.
"Er...no, I don't think I will, thanks," he said. "Er not tomorrow. I've got loads of work to do..."
And he traipsed off to the boys' stairs leaving her looking slightly disappointed."
I mean, could JKR make Hermione's preferences any clearer? Ron's big moment, he makes the team, she falls asleep and then feels she has to stick around out of politeness. She says she's exhausted but then her face shines with "glee" when she asks Harry to spend some time alone with her. She picked the wrong vehicle - house elves - for that, but she'll work that out.
FP notes that there's an opposite parallel here with Hermione's attitude to Harry: "JKR chose to show Hermione asleep as Ron has his best moment. Look at PoA where Hermione was indeed more than once tired and on the edge. JKR didn't write that she was asleep as Harry won, did she?"
Hermione has a totally realistic, not to say negative view of Ron's Quidditch abilities. She doesn't expect him to be any good at it and, for a long time, he isn't. Why? Because chess is the only thing he's shown a particular talent for?
(OOTP506 Seen and Unforeseen) "Has Ron saved a goal yet?" asked Hermione.
(OOTP264 Percy and Padfoot) "How was practise?" asked Hermione rather coolly.
"It was -" Harry began.
"Completely lousy," said Ron in a hollow voice.
She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt.
"Well it was only your first one," she said consolingly, "it's bound to take time to -"
Ron's words and mood tell her she was right, despite her protestations later. She then feels PITY for him and tries to raise his spirits with sympathy but he takes out his woes on her. Then:
"I'm going to get started on some homework," said Ron angrily and stomped off ...
Hermione turned to Harry.
"Was he lousy?"
"No," said Harry loyally.
Hermione raised her eyebrows.
"Well I suppose he could've played better," Harry muttered, "but it was only the first training session, like you said."
A very telling scene occurs after Harry, Fred and George are banned from Gryffindor:
(OOTP507 Seen and Unforeseen) "That's the trouble with quidditch," said Hermione absentmindedly..."it creates all the bad feeling and tensions between the houses."
She looked up, and caught Fred, George and Harry all staring at her with expressions of mingled disgust and incredulity on their faces.
"Well it does!" she said impatiently. "It's only a game isn't it?"
"Hermione," said Harry, shaking his head, "you're good on feelings and stuff, but you just don't understand about Quidditch."
"Maybe not," she said darkly..."but at least my happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability."
Ummm...okay... this is the girl who, for example, "had all her fingers crossed in her lap, was squinting fixedly at Harry" then had "her crossed fingers in her mouth", then "screamed, leaping on to her seat to watch as Harry sped" towards the snitch in just ONE game in which Harry played. Yet now it's "only a game". Yet now that Harry is the one who is off the team and Ron is the one who is on it - their roles reversed - she certainly doesn't feel the same way.
Some people would argue that her views have changed since then and this scene is simply a reflection of that. But she was rather excited with/intense about the wizards' sport in COS, POA, at the QWC and with Harry's flying display at the First Task in GOF. Suddenly her change of attitude occurs once Harry is off the team and Ron is on it. Even if this change is only to do with her developing a social conscience in GOF, that's still a book and a half ago. Plenty of time to make this comment.
h) OOTP Gryffindor vs Slytherin
This is Ron's first game and Harry's last, at least for the year.
Hermione's kiss for Ron is all about her pity for him and her desire to distract him - from his nervousness and from seeing the Slytherin badges.
Harry compares the way Ron looks to how he appeared belching slugs in COS. We get a couple of pages on how desperate Ron's mood is and how Harry, Ginny, Hermione and Luna try to boost his spirits. Then:
(OOTP358 The Lion and the Serpent) "As they rose from the table, Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry's arm she drew him to one side.
"Don't let Ron see what's on those Slytherin badges," she whispered urgently.
Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desperate.
"Good luck, Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek.
"And you, Harry -"
And yes I'm sure JKR had a chuckle as she typed that last line. But personally, because it doesn't directly say Hermione kissed Harry as well, I will never argue that she does. Some R/Hr shippers used to say Hermione could have kissed Ron at the end of GOF as well, 'but we just didn't see it.' The "and you" here could merely mean "and good luck to you as well".
But there is nothing romantic about this kiss. Hermione kisses him despite her unwillingness to encourage him (the perfume, the letter to Viktor) in a romantic sense, because he's in dire straits and it's the right thing to do as a friend. And JKR still manages to show a bit of H/Hr intimacy: Harry and Hermione are almost like parents with their child on the first day of school.
It's interesting that Harry and Hermione feel comfortable helping and protecting each other at various times, but it's very difficult to imagine Hermione clinging to Ron and whimpering in his arms as she does with Harry in the Grawp forest scene, or of Ron slipping into the Harry role of comforter and protector. Ron is capable of saying comforting things at times, but there isn't the same equality in his relationship with Hermione as there is between Harry and Hermione.
i) OOTP Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw
JKR chooses to write Harry and Hermione going off and having another adventure together while Ron is having his day in the sun. I've argued before that Hermione did not have to go off with Harry.
If Ron was truely Hermione's priority, she could have easily said 'D'you mind if I stay and support Ron.' In fact Harry promises his and Hermione's help to Hagrid three times in this sequence without consulting her at all and knowing her response without having to ask:
(OOTP603 Grawp) "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come."
"Of course we'll help you," said Harry at once,. "What do you want us to do?"
"Well..." said Harry, already bound by his promise. "We'll try, Hagrid."
This is a direct consequence of all those scenes in the past where Hermione has chosen to go with Harry, to spend time with him, to support him over Ron. Harry just expects and assumes that she will again. But if JKR had written those earlier scenes in a different way with Hermione showing more interest and concern for Ron, then this scene would have been different. It would have at least made Harry check what she wanted to do first. Maybe he would have said 'you don't need to come if you don't want to, if you want to stay and support Ron.' Sure Hagrid is in a bad way and obviously needs help and is important to both Harry and Hermione. But all that means is that Hermione is putting both Harry AND Hagrid before Ron's needs. And yet according to R/Hr shippers, Hermione returns Ron's feelings? She has a crush on him?
"No?" said Hermione in a hushed voice.
"Yes!" said Harry loudly.
"Harry! Hermione!" yelled Ron.. "We did it! We won!"
They beamed up at him as he passed."
They are pleased for their friend but there isn't anything special about Hermione's reaction that would suggest crush-like feelings for Ron.
Remember this is the biggest thing Ron has achieved in FIVE years at Hogwarts. The only other things that come close are the chess game and knocking out the troll in PS. In comparison it doesn't take much for Hermione to get hugely excited about things that Harry achieves. And yet he has so much success, wouldn't it therefore be more special when Ron achieves something because it happens so rarely?
Just to give one example, she seemed at least as excited over the Quibbler article, for which she kept praising Harry although it was her idea, as over Ron's success:
(OOTP513 Seen and Unforeseen) "For some reason, every time Hermione caught sight of one of these signs she beamed with pleasure. "What exactly are you so happy about?" Harry asked her...."they bombarded me with questions," Hermione told Harry, her eyes shining."
An R/Hr shipper has questioned whether the use of the Weasley is our King song and Harry's dream about Ron and Hermione wearing crowns is foreshadowing. It's a possibility. When Hermione starts to show signs of returning Ron's feelings - what feelings there are - I'll reconsider it.
"Harry had a troubled night's sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body; watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns."
What had happened that day? He saw a pic of his parents in the order, Molly sobbed over the 'dead bodies' of her family and Ron and Hermione were made prefects i.e. gained titles. Sounds to me like Harry, on this occasion, was dreaming about the day's events.
On royal symbolism: why does JKR make Ron's big moment at the end of the Quidditch match read like a sombre funeral procession?
And is this scene simply a chess game....
"The white queen turned her blank face towards him.
"Yes..." said Ron softly, "it's the only way...I've got to be taken."
"No!" Harry and Hermione shouted.
"That's chess!" snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me - that leaves you free to checkmate the king, Harry!"
....Or does it have added significance now we know of a queen (Bellatrix) at the side of the king (Voldemort)?
When Harry and Hermione return from the forest, JKR manages to turn Ron's big moment into an example of H/Hr togetherness (not for the first time). They look up at him as he is borne AWAY from them by the crowd. Then they look at each other and make their way in alone together. Both have a last look back at the forest. This togetherness continues with the scene the next day when they resolve to tell Ron about Grawp:"They persuaded him to join them in revising under the beech tree."
Ron appears to relish, not only all the attention, but the fact that it's a victory he has achieved without Harry's help:
"I'm just glad we won, that's all."
"Yeah," said Ron slowly, savouring the words, "we won. Did you see the look on Chang's face when Ginny got the snitch right out from under her nose?"
Why the special emphasis (italicised by JKR) on the "we won" ? Isn't Ron taking the conventional collective "we" of Harry's - we meaning Gryffindor - and making it a more exclusive "we" - we meaning Ron, Ginny and the other team members, not Harry? And to follow that immediately with a dig at Cho, whom he knows Harry has a crush on.... Ron is clearly enjoying his new fame and the fact that it has occurred without any connection to Harry, or to his older brothers. In fact I suspect the "we" specifically means Ron and Ginny because he immediately follows it with a mention of Ginny's triumph over Cho, suggesting he has just been thinking of Ginny.
"You didn't watch?" he said faintly looking from one to the other. "You didn't see me make any of those saves?"
"We'll - no," said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand towards him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave - we had to."
"Yeah?" said Ron, whose face was growing rather red. "How come?"
They quickly supply Ron with the answer. But the fact that Hermione anticipates his anger and the fact that it's quick to spark (his face "growing rather red") is rather reminiscent of Harry's hurt and suspicion about why Ron and Hermione had got together without him at the beginning of the book.
j) Conclusions
The matches clearly show that Hermione's feelings are far more intense towards Harry than Ron. Quidditch is important while Harry is playing. JKR also employs interesting symbolism around some of the games.
Part 3) SEEKING AND SYMBOLISM
a) Presents
Several of Hermione's presents to Harry are linked to flying/flying. This can of course be simply explained by the fact that Harry is very interested in flying and Hermione knows this. So is Ron and the only two presents from her to him we know about are non-flying presents: sweets in PS and the homework diary in OOTP.
PS: "She had also lent him Quidditch Through the Ages, which turned out to be a very interesting read."
COS: A luxury eagle-feather quill
POA: A broomstick servicing kit. "Knowing Hermione, he was sure it would be a large book full of very difficult spells - but it wasn't. His heart gave a huge bound as he ripped back the sleek black leather case with silver words stamped across it: Broomstick servicing kit." And "Harry got through the next three days by forcing himself to think about his Handbook of Do it Yourself Broomcare whenever Aunt Marge stared at him."
GOF: "Hermione had given Harry a book called Quidditch Teams of Britain and Ireland."
a) JKR's use of symbolism
I'm first going to look at three times of the year and key events that happen in Harry's life to give an idea of JKR's extensive use of symbolism and foreshadowing.
His birthday: in PS 10 years after he left it, Hagrid takes him back to the wizarding world and away from the Dursleys; in COS Ron breaks him out of his 'jail' at the Dursleys; in POA Hermione gives him the broomstick servicing kit. Note here that his "heart gave a huge bound" when he opens it. It sounds insignificant except that his reactions to Cho are consistently confind to his stomach.
Halloween: as Flying Phoenix has noted, Harry was probably conceived on Halloween, his parents died at the hand of Voldemort on Halloween and 10 years later Harry jumped on a troll let in by an agent of Voldemort and became friends with Hermione. Yes, Ron did as well but he was reluctant to go to Hermione's aid and was grudging about her lying to help them out.
Christmas: in PS Harry is given his father's invisibility cloak by Dumbledore and uses it to see his family in the Mirror of Erised (desire) which is symbolic of his own desire for a family/love; in COS they take the polyjuice potion and he sees Hermione's face covered in fur. The fact that this image returns in OOTP as one of his bad memories suggests it is important in some way.
In POA Harry is given the Firebolt by his godfather, Sirius, and Hermione is the catalyst for it to be taken away on the same day to be checked for jinxes. This is also the day that Ron and Harry get up from the table together and Trelawney says it's unlucky.
In GOF at the Yule Ball, Harry's jaw drops at the sight of Hermione and he reassesses his opinion of her attractiveness, Ron and Hermione fight, Hermione goes to the ball with Viktor. Ron's extra interest in Hermione starts here; Ginny is disappointed at being offered (by Ron) the chance to go with Harry and declines because she has accepted Neville, Harry isn't interested - Harry and Hermione are attracted to Cho and Viktor. Note at the end of OOTP Ron again 'offers' Ginny to Harry and this time neither are interested.
Also JKR famously said everyone is in love with the wrong people in GOF: since Neville and Ginny were each other's second choice after Hermione and Harry, and given Ginny and Neville's development in OOTP that could be significant. Given JKR's comment about Ron aiming too high in asking Fleur, could Neville and Ginny have been aiming too high?
In OOTP Hermione draws Harry out of Buckbeak's room. This is not strictly on Christmas day but it is over Christmas at Sirius' house and the references to Christmas are all around. Note that the moment Harry feels better "his heart swelled with happiness and he felt like joining in as they heard Sirius tramping past their door towards Buckbeak's room, singing God Rest Ye, Merry Hippogriffs at the top of his voice." So again we get that recurring theme of Harry/Hermione, Buckbeak and Sirius.
Something else I'll mention here to demonstrate JKR's use of symbolism in the books is the obvious connection between Harry and house elves. When we first meet Harry in PS he is essentially the Dursley's house elf: enslaved, kept in the cupboard under the stairs, punished frequently, half-starved, made to work like a dog, trapped in rooms and denied any affection. To nail home the symbolism JKR even has Kreacher's 'bedroom' "under the boiler in that cupboard off the kitchen." And who is the person who is passionate about helping house elves? Harry even notices that when Hermione talks about DADA leading up to asking Harry to teach herself and Ron "her face was suddenly alight with the kind of fervour that SPEW usually inspired in her."
Perdy makes the point that JKR could be setting the scene for a rebellion by house elves. If that's the case they will have a hero (Harry) and a champion (Hermione).
c) The Firebolt
The Firebolt is the most precious possession Harry owns. It is clearly symbolically important and the symbolism appears to relate to Hermione and to Harry's heart.
If we look more closely at the Firebolt itself: this is Harry's second broom, but much better than the first. The Irish team ride Firebolts in the QWC final in GOF. It is described as a "magnificent gleaming broomstick" a "dream broom" and "he had never wanted anything so much in his whole life"
When Hermione effectively takes the broomstick away, she initiates the worst period in her friendship with Harry, they stop talking to each other for about a month - the same time as Harry's fallout with Ron in GOF.
But while Harry is "angry" with Hermione, Harry and Hermione are never bitter or verbally abusive to each other. Ron is angry with her, stops talking to her and makes nasty comments to Hermione even though it has nothing to do with him. As with the house elves, Hermione's reasons are sound but her methods are less so.
(POA184 The Patronus) "Harry's jaw dropped. She was holding out his Firebolt, and it looked as magnificent as ever.
"I can have it back?" Harry said weakly. "Seriously?"....
Speechless, Harry carried the Firebolt back upstairs...As he turned a corner, he saw Ron dashing towards him, grinning from ear to ear.
"She gave it to you? Excellent! Listen, can I still have a go on it? Tomorrow?
"Yeah...anything..." said Harry, his heart lighter than it had been in a month. "You know what - we should make it up with Hermione. She was only trying to help..."
"Yeah, all right," said Ron...
After 10 minutes or so, which the Firebolt was passed around and admired from every angle, the crowd dispersed and Harry and Ron had a clear view of Hermione, the only person who hadn't rushed over to them, bent over her work and carefully avoiding their eyes. Harry and Ron approached her table and at last, she looked up.
"I got it back," said Harry, grinning at her and holding up the Firebolt.
"See, Hermione? There wasn't anything wrong with it!" said Ron.
"Well - there might have been!" said Hermione. "I mean, at least you know now that it's safe!"
"Yeah, I suppose so," said Harry. "I'd better put it upstairs - "
"I'll take it!" said Ron eagerly. "I've got to give Scabbers his rat tonic.
He took the Firebolt, and, holding it as if it were made of glass, carried it away."
Harry is overwhelmed at getting his Firebolt back. Note again the reaction in his heart: his heart felt "lighter than it had been in a month" - since the time the dispute with Hermione began. Ron's first thought is 'can I fly on it'. Harry, the person who actually owns the broom and has yet to fly on it, thinks only of making up with Hermione. He recognises that her heart was in the right place, that she had the best of intentions. Harry's grin says he's relieved to be able to fix things with Hermione, whereas Ron tries to rub it in with an 'I told you so'. (Bear in mind that when Ron and Harry fell out in GOF, Hermione chose to mainly spend her time with Harry, but she never stopped talking to Ron and she didn't bad-mouth Ron to Harry. She treated Ron fairly.) Ron again shows that it's the broom that's important to him, not repairing his relationship with Hermione, by the reverence with which he handles the broom and jumps at the chance to carry it. Whereas Harry, in the subsequent scene, is totally focused on Hermione and how she's feeling:
(POA185 The Patronus) "Can I sit down, then?" Harry asked Hermione.
"I suppose so," said Hermione, moving a great stack of parchment off a chair.
Harry looked around at the cluttered table....
"How are you getting through all this stuff?" Harry asked her.
"Oh, well - you know - working hard," said Hermione. Close to Harry saw that she looked almost as tired as Lupin.
"Why don't you just drop a couple of subjects?" Harry asked, watching her lifting books...
"I couldn’t do that!" said Hermione, looking scandalised.
"Arithmancy looks terrible," said Harry, picking up a very complicated-looking number chart.
"Oh, no, it's wonderful!" said Hermione earnestly. "It's my favourite subject! It's -"
Harry is gentle with her, watches her, is interested in what she's doing and is concerned about how tired she is. Her comment about Arithmancy has a sequel in OOTP where Harry buys her an Arithmancy book she especially wanted, which means 1) he remembered what she said and 2) he went to some effort to please her. She also actually follows his advice and drops a couple of subjects at the end of the year. The scene is interrupted by Ron, blaming her for Crookshanks supposedly eating Scabbers. When Harry tries to say the evidence points Ron's way, Hermione stops talking to both boys. Note that Ron does have a brief turn on the broom. But it's not in a flying game, the snitch isn't involved, Ron isn't a seeker, at that stage he isn't playing for the house team. He gets his own broom - a different make from either of Harry's - at the start of OOTP. Is it a coincidence that it's shortly before Luna is introduced?
d) Specific Firebolt symbolism and dreams
I've already discussed the possibility of some symbolic significance related to the Firebolt:
Harry gains his first broom, the Nimbus, in his first year and loses it in his third. His crush on Cho starts in his third year and ends in his fifth. A three year gap with both.
The Nimbus is smashed after Harry falls off in a flying match and Cedric beats him to the snitch.
This can be interpreted as symbolic foreshadowing of Harry's doomed first love for Cho. The Nimbus is his first broom as Cho is his first and only crush. This is the only time Harry fails to get the snitch and win, his relationship with Cho fails. Harry and Cedric are both seekers, chasing the snitch. Cedric is the one who catches the snitch just as Cedric beats Harry to asking Cho to the Yule Ball and becoming Cho's boyfriend before Harry. But Cedric wins in ominous circumstances - the dementors come onto the field, Harry falls - his 'victory' is literally short-lived.
Perdy points out that: "JKR foreshadowed Cedric’s end using this scene of the Dementors’ arrival during his Quidditch game, much like the Triwizard Tournament and the onslaught of the Death Eaters. There is not just one item that forms a parallel, but there are three!"
Harry is first attracted to the Firebolt on display in Diagon Alley but reasons that he's got a perfectly good broom that hasn't failed him so why spend gold for a new one. But the demise of the first broom gives an opening for a second, better, "dream" broom. This is a Christmas gift from Harry's godfather, Sirius. Harry has been loyal in his crush on Cho, he had to get over it before he could move on.
Harry no sooner gets it than Hermione, being cautious, takes it away to be checked for any problems. This causes difficulties between them but they come through it strongly and their friendship has developed to the extent that it can bend but not break whatever the pressure. Harry is made to wait before he can fly on the Firebolt. If there is symbolism to this I think it is to do with the path to romance for Harry and Hermione being difficult and long.
Harry's first game on the Firebolt is against Ravenclaw where he is directly pitted against Cho as opposing seekers. Cho tails him, blocks him, forces him to change direction rather than looks for the snitch herself.
Funnily enough Harry actually performs the type of manoeuvre that Viktor pulls at the QWC:
(POA193 Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw) "Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Cho following him...she'd decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself. Right then...if she wanted to tail him, she'd have to take the consequences...He dived again, and Cho, thinking he'd seen the snitch, tried to follow. Harry pulled out of the dive very sharply, she hurtled downwards; he rose fast as a bullet once more, and then saw it...the snitch was glittering way above the pitch at the Ravenclaw end."
(GOF98 The Quidditch World Cup) "At the very last second, Viktor Krum pulled out of the dive and spiralled off. Lynch however hit the ground with a dull thud. (On replay) He saw Krum's face contorted with concentration as he pulled out of the dive just in time, while Lynch was flattened, and he understood - Krum hadn't seen the snitch at all, he was just making Lynch copy him.."
So Cho is out-manoeuvred and Harry beats her to the snitch. After the match Harry tries to bring Hermione back into the fold but Ron resists and Hermione runs off crying. Harry has a dream involving the Firebolt which is interrupted by Sirius' attack on Ron.
(OOTP408 The Eye of the Snake) "Harry dreamed he was back in the DA room. Cho was accusing him of luring her there under false pretences; she said he had promised her a hundred and fifty Chocolate Frog Cards if she showed up. Harry protested...Cho shouted, 'Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog Cards, look!' And she pulled out fistfuls of cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air. Then she turned into Hermione, who said, 'You did promise her, you know, Harry ... I think you'd better give her something else instead ... how about your Firebolt?' And Harry was protesting that he could not give Cho his Firebolt, because Umbridge had it, and anyway the whole thing was ridiculous, he'd only come to the DA room to put up some Christmas baubles shaped like Dobby's head."
If we put this in context, Harry has just been kissed by an upset, emotional Cho. Instead of it being a good experience as he expected, he finds himself emotionally recoiling. It feels wrong and he's not sure if he wants to go any further in developing a relationship with Cho. Harry can handle Hermione's emotional range but Cho is someone he doesn't know, is not friends with, whom he's fantasised about as a kind of glamour girl he can have fun with. That fantasy evaporates. Cho approaching him in the DA room becomes one of the emotional memories he fears in his Occlumency lessons with Snape.
Chocolate Frog Cards are something students collect, so they're not totally meaningless. But a collection of cards is a very frivolous, minor possession compared to the Firebolt.
The dream I think refers to the fact that Harry has had this long attraction for Cho and she is aware of it - Harry asked her to the Yule Ball. So now that they are both single, Cho assumes that the long hinted relationship could go ahead, and makes a move. But Harry's dream is telling him that emotionally he doesn't want it - he can't give her what Cedric gave her, commitment to a relationship. Then Cho turns into Hermione and the stakes are raised much further because the Firebolt is his most precious possession. Hermione is probing Harry to see how serious Harry is about Cho. Harry cannot give Cho his heart, cannot be part of a serious, love relationship with her. He cannot give Cho cards, let alone his Firebolt. And the most interesting part is the fact that Hermione doesn't just appear: Cho turns into Hermione. Hermione comes after Cho just as on Valentine's Day Harry goes to Hogsmeade with Cho and ends up with Hermione. Again we get that Hermione/Firebolt link. Perdy comments: "that is exactly what Hermione does in real life. She probes Harry and his feelings for Cho."
(Note: Hermione is the only one in the books to command another key possession of Harry's, his wand. (PS119 The Midnight Duel) "She grabbed Harry's wand, tapped the lock and whispered 'Alohomora!'". (OOTP697 Beyond the Veil) "Accio wand!" cried Hermione. Harry's wand flew from a dark corner into her hand and she threw it to him.")
e) Viktor Krum
Viktor gets one of the best introductions a character could hope for: he's presented as a star international athlete at a world cup, he catches the snitch after a spectacular dive while bravely contending with the pain of a broken, bloodied nose.
Harry notes that "Krum was the most exciting player on the pitch" and Hermione says "he was very brave, wasn't he?".
But from then on in GOF we see Harry getting the better of Viktor. Despite his flying background, Krum doesn't think to use his flying ability to get past the dragon in the First Task. Harry ties with him for the lead in the tournament but then moves ahead after the Second Task. Harry shows himself to be braver than Viktor when Crouch appears and more heroic during the Second Task, and whereas Harry shows an ability to fight off the imperius curse, Krum succumbs to it during the third task.
Krum is drawn as a 'shadow' Harry, they have a great deal in common. They look alike - dark-haired, a thin, athletic build - they are both brilliant, brave Quidditch seekers. They are both famous, with a dislike of fame. They are both reserved, at times secretive, slightly loner personalities. And yes, in OOTP there's a fair bit of Krum's "grouchy git" persona to be seen in Harry. There are also a couple of Quidditch game parallels between them as I've mentioned.
Harry measures himself against Viktor:
(GOF479 The Madness of Mr Crouch) "Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was, elaborated....He couldn't quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous international Quidditch player. It was as though the 18-year-old Krum thought he, Harry; was an equal - a real rival -..."You fly very well. I vos votching at the first task." "Thanks," said Harry, grinning broadly and suddenly feeling much taller himself."
Just to enlarge upon my point about Harry and Krum being athletic: being athletic and physical has nothing to do with size and build. Football players tend to be medium build and thin. They look different from rugby props who look different from rugby locks who look different from 100m sprinters who look different from marathon runners who look different from swimmers. Harry and Krum are gifted sportsmen. Harry has consistently been the physical hero in the series, jumping on the troll, pulling Bulstrode off Hermione, fighting the basilisk etc. Very different from Ron. Ron even complains about having to do ordinary Muggle cleaning for detention in COS whereas Harry says he'd rather do it because he's had "loads of practice." Ron later complains that his "muscles have all seized up."
Having written Krum as a 'shadow' Harry, JKR has this character notice and single out Hermione as someone special. She writes Hermione being attracted to him and discovering that he's nice, rather humble, someone she can talk to and mature underneath the surly exterior. She writes this 'shadow' Harry asking Hermione to a Christmas day ball and then has the other 'shadow' Harry, Neville, asking Hermione as well. JKR tells us that Krum "never felt this way about any other girl" but that Hermione babbles about Harry to Krum and that she's far more excited about how Harry is performing in the Triwizard Tournament than Viktor. JKR shows Viktor being suspicious and jealous of Harry and Hermione's relationship and then carries on the theme with Cho in OOTP.
What JKR is demonstrating is 1) what looks and qualities Hermione is attracted to 2) the fact that these things make Krum uncannily similar to Harry 3) this similar yet older version of Harry recognises the special qualities of Hermione and d) that Hermione prefers Harry to Viktor.
On the question of common looks, Hermione makes a comment that Krum isn't that good-looking early on in GOF. She made that comment out of irritation at all the groupies surrounding Krum, before he asked her to the ball. Apart from her comment at the QWC about him being brave, her attitude to Krum was ALL negative before he approached her. After that this was the guy she was "deep in talk" with at the ball, the guy she enjoyed dancing with, the guy she wrote a long letter to in OOTP. His personality is her chief attraction to her and obviously his looks are no longer an issue.
f) Seekers for love
A symbolic connection between flying and love in the HP books cannot be definitely proved but it is hinted at.
In (OOTP743 The Lost Prophecy) Dumbledore describes the power that Harry has that marks him out as "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord."
"It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all...he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
Harry is famous in the wizarding world for mysteriously causing the downfall of Voldemort the first time, but his parents sacrificed themselves to save him and their sacrifice played a part in that victory. We know that Harry is particularly good at DADA - the one subject where he betters Hermione. But that has been a gradual learning process: it isn't something that he was instinctively, immediately good at. He isn't as generally academically outstanding as Hermione.
What is the one natural gift he has that is so special it corresponds to the idea of him having a special power no one else - including Dumbledore - has to such an extent, to be able to defeat Voldemort? Harry is the (POA15 Owl Post) "youngest person in a century to be picked for one of the Hogwarts house [Quidditch] teams."
(PS111 The Midnight Duel) "And in a rush of fierce joy he realised he had found something he could do without being taught, this was easy, this was wonderful."
(POA188 Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw) "It was better than he'd ever dreamed. The Firebolt turned with the lightest touch; it seemed to obey his thoughts rather than his grip."
(GOF309 The First Task) "He swung his leg over the broom, and kicked off from the ground. And a second later, something miraculous happened. As he soared upwards, as the wind rushed through his hair...he realised that he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear. He was back where he belonged."
(OOTP488 The Beetle At Bay) "It seemed to Harry that Umbridge was steadily depriving him of everything that made his life at Hogwarts worth living: visits to Hagrid's house, letters from Sirius, his Firebolt and Quidditch."
It certainly can't be an accident that three people who have been connected in some way to Harry's romantic life have been Quidditch seekers:
Cho, Harry's first 'love', who became jealous of Harry's relationship with Hermione, a Ravenclaw seeker.
Cedric, Cho's boyfriend, who beat Harry on and off the field but then died, a Hufflepuff seeker
Viktor, Hermione's first boyfriend/friend, who became jealous of her relationship with Harry, an international Quidditch seeker and star
As we see there, JKR deliberately mirrors Viktor's suspicion and jealousy in GOF with Cho's in OOTP.
Then there's also the fact that Harry's personal enemy, Draco Malfoy, is a Slytherin seeker. If anyone's an 'anti-love' symbol it has to be Draco, whose heart is clearly filled with hatred, spite and fear, whose very name contains elements of 'dragon (Draco)' and 'bad (Mal)' and whose father is a key lieutenant of Voldemort with the first name of Lucius (not a million miles away from Lucifer). To deepen the flying/love connection, Draco is the person who is slashed by Buckbeak and the Malfoys and Macnair are involved in trying to have Buckbeak killed.
Ginny is of course also a seeker.
The first thing to note is that Ginny is not a seeker at the same time that Harry is a seeker. She does not play in the team at the same time that he does.
She is also a reluctant seeker, she tells Harry she wants him to come back as seeker and that she wants to play chaser. We don't know for sure that 1) Harry will come back as seeker and 2) that Ginny will play chaser. But if that does happen then they will never both be seekers at the same time.
Isn't it curious that as soon as soon as JKR puts Ginny on the team, she pulls Harry off it? There's been a lot of discussion about how Harry and Hermione miss Ron's big moment in the Quidditch final but they miss Ginny's big moment as well. Ron made the saves but Ginny caught the snitch.
And Cho is the opposition seeker she beats to the snitch.
Two things to do with that: 1) Harry is not around to see it happen and 2) Harry's crush for Cho is in its death throws.
Then something else curious happens: Ginny dumps her boyfriend who then latches on to Cho, who has given up on Harry, as he has given up on her.
We know that Ginny has had a romantic connection to Harry (as fellow seekers Cho, Viktor and Cedric did) because we know she had a crush on him. Unlike them she isn't in competition with Harry: He doesn't beat her or be beaten by her at Quidditch or in a tournament.
Instead the Ginny/Quidditch symbolism suggests indifference and separation - he's not there, he doesn't see, he's not a part of what she's doing, her romantic entanglements involve someone he's moved on from.
Some people may argue along these lines: ‘Cedric is the one who beats Harry to the snitch just as Cedric is the one who beats him to Cho's affections’ ‘Ginny is the one who beats Cho to the snitch just as Ginny will be the one who beats her to Harry’s affections’
But there are key differences.
For a start, as Grace points out to me, Cho has already been out with Harry, she's already 'beaten' Ginny to Harry so how can Ginny beating Cho at Quidditch be a reference to a future romance with Harry?
Harry's games against Cedric and Cho happen in POA. The only thing that happens then in a romantic sense is that Harry sees Cho and feels the first stir of his crush. It doesn't start to play out until GOF and OOTP. What happens between Harry/Cedric/Cho in POA is foreshadowing.
What happens between Ginny and Cho, if it carries any symbolism, is all about the past. For a start there is quite a lot of doubt about the extent of Cho's feelings for Harry. Her feelings were confused, mixed up with her feelings for Cedric, her sadness over his death, her wanting to talk to Harry about it. She's floundering around basically.
But if we accept that she had a crush on Harry, we are seeing a Quidditch duel between two girls who have ALREADY seen their hopes for a relationship with Harry dashed.
Ginny has given up on Harry. Cho has had two bad rows with him. After the match, we later learn, Ginny dumps Michael and Michael goes off with Cho and Ginny goes off with Dean. This is all about moving on.
What's more, what happens between Cho and Ginny occurs while Harry is absent, off in the forest with Hermione and Hagrid. As I said, Harry's crush on Cho is in its death throws:
"Harry felt his stomach perform less of a back flip, more a feeble lurch as Cho walked out onto the pitch...He was not sure what he wanted to happen any more, except that he could not stand any more rows. Even the sight of her chatting animatedly to Roger Davies...caused him only a slight twinge of jealousy."
And he only returns once the game is over.
Also a relationship with Ginny is not obviously a 'better broom' (from the Nimbus to Firebolt) than a relationship with Cho. How is Ginny better? At least Harry fancied Cho. He is not interested in Ginny, he does not fancy her. He even compares the way she looks to her brothers. That's not a positive description when the guy making it is supposedly one's great romantic intended. Cho is older, more mature, intelligent (she's in Ravenclaw) sporty, she shows in various scenes in OOTP that she can be brave.
Ginny with her relationship with Harry has a parallel in Neville and Hermione. Ginny's crush was largely to do with hero worship - she was interested in him because of his fame before she had spoken a word to him. Neville liked Hermione because she was especially kind to him when he was being bullied and looked down on - she was a kind of personal hero. Both Neville and Ginny are people who have been underestimated and overshadowed and who are gradually coming into their own. Neville asked Hermione to the Yule Ball because (according to Ron) "she's always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff" but she had already accepted Viktor (the other shadow Harry). Ginny wanted to go to the ball with Harry but accepted Neville when Hermione said no.
So in various ways JKR shadows Harry/Hermione with a motley crew of Viktor, Cho, Cedric, Ginny, Neville, Luna and Ron, with both Harry and Hermione leaving a few heart wrecks in their wake.
g) Conclusions
I think the Harry, Hermione, Buckbeak connection is the strongest evidence of a symbolic link between flying and love and more specifically H/Hr getting together. But there's quite a lot of suggestive supporting evidence that's hard to prove. At least Quidditch gives us plenty of ammunition with which to show that Hermione's preference is for Harry.
103. Symbolic harmony by Turambar
This is an amalgam of some information I've put together on symbolism in HP with some points raised by other posters previously.
a) The houses
The need for harmony between the houses has been an underlying theme that gained more prominence in OOTP.
The Sorting Hat in its song in OOTP says the four houses haven't been united since Salazar Slytherin left the school and makes a plea for unity as the school is under threat from external forces. This will most likely become more important in the last two books and one would think ultimately harmony could only occur once the influence of Voldemort is removed.
It is an essential theme of the series and clearly related to Harry's mission, as outlined by Dumbledore, to defeat Voldemort with the power he has (love) which Voldemort lacks.
A key piece of the symbolic jigsaw surrounding Harry and Hermione fell into place when in OOTP there was this exchange between Terry Boot and Hermione:
(OOTP P353) "How come you're not in Ravenclaw?" he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. "With brains like yours?"
"Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my sorting," said Hermione brightly, "but it decided on Gryffindor in the end."
We immediately get a parallel there with Harry.
The Sorting Hat saw the qualities of Slytherin (from Voldemort) in Harry and considered putting him in Slytherin. Harry, however, asked not to be put in Slytherin and the hat decided to put him in Gryffindor.
With Hermione, either the Sorting Hat considered her bravery to out-weigh her formidable intelligence or Hermione asked to be put in Gryffindor, which is a possibility as Gryffindor was her preference:
(PS P79) "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad."
Note here that bravery wins out over intelligence to Hermione's mind despite her obvious academic drive.
Bravery is a key characteristic that ties Harry with Viktor (GOF P103 "He was very brave, wasn't he?") and (as far as she knew, going by his book exploits) Lockhart. Brains and talent are close behind: COS P123 "Oh yes," said Hermione eagerly. "So clever, the way you [Lockhart] trapped that last one with the tea strainer."
So between them Harry and Hermione symbolically cover through the qualities within them, the qualities of the three main Hogwarts houses: Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Slytherin. Hufflepuff is the lesser of the houses, the Sorting Hat says the other house leaders had the pick of the students and Hufflepuff taught "the rest".
b) House harmony, griffins and planets
According to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter, the name Gryffindor: means "golden griffin" in French, the house colours are red and gold and its symbol is a golden lion. A triangle of gold? The house's chief virtues are bravery, daring.
Rather in the way Harry's patronus is a spirit of his animagus father's stag, Harry has the essence of Gryffindor inside him or attached to him:
When he gets his wand (PS P65) "a stream of red and gold sparks shot from the end like a firework."
When he cleans his wand (GOF P266) "several gold sparks shot out the end of it."
Harry's wand has a phoenix feather core from Fawkes, who has a (GOF P506)"golden perch" and "scarlet and gold plumage." (And the name Fawkes: Guy Fawkes/gunpowder/sulphur?. Hmmm....maybe one of JKR's little jokes.)
In COS, during his time of need fighting the basilisk of Slytherin, Gryffindor's one time friend and subsequent main rival, Harry pulls Gryffindor's sword out of the Sorting Hat - which also once was Gryffindor's hat (GOF P157).
Now we start to see layers of symbolism to thicken the fabric.
Harry's birth sign is the Fire sign of Leo, ruled by the Sun and with the symbol of a lion.
Mar Dhea said in a post: "the Sun is the basis of all life, and the star attraction of the Solar System. Harry is the hope of wizardkind."
According to the Zodical Circle of Love:
"The sun rules it [Leo], associated with the god Apollo whom they called "the Giver of Light." He was the great mythological leader and oracle of the arts, the one who perfected the lyre invented by Mercury . He strangled the python of evil, signifying Light conquering darkness , the epitome of Leo at its highest."
Hermione's birth sign is the Earth sign of Virgo, symbol the virgin, ruled by Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun.
Mar Dhea said: "Mercury was the Messenger of the Gods - and Mercury is the planet that, allegedly, rules the way in which we operate and generally communicate." Hermione's name is also the female version of Hermes, also the messenger of the gods.
Flying Phoenix said that: "Mercury was given two names by the Greeks: Apollo for its apparition as a morning star and Hermes as an evening star. Greek astronomers knew, however, that the two names referred to the same body. Mercury acts to process large volumes of information within our essential being - as represented by the sun."
Note that the only birth dates referred to in the books - in July and September - are Harry and Hermione's. We are meant to find these birth clues. And note also Hermione's close ties to the Sun (Harry).
Flying Phoenix says: "That's in my thinking important that one part of Mercury has an association with the sun and it's Apollo "The giver of light". This means that Harry as sun shares with Hermione as Mercury the same knowledge."
Apollo: The son of Zeus and Leto, and the twin brother of Artemis. Apollo was the god of music (principally the lyre, and he directed the choir of the Muses) and also of prophecy, colonization, medicine, archery (but not for war or hunting), poetry, dance, intellectual inquiry and the carer of herds and flocks. He was also a god of light, known as "Phoebus" (radiant or beaming, and he was sometimes identified with Helios the sun god). He was also the god of plague and was worshiped as Smintheus (from sminthos, rat) and as Parnopius (from parnops, grasshopper) and was known as the destroyer of rats and locust, and according to Homer's Iliad, Apollo shot arrows of plague into the Greek camp. Apollo being the god of religious healing would give those guilty of murder and other immoral deeds a ritual purification. Sacred to Apollo are the swan (one legend says that Apollo flew on the back of a swan to the land of the Hyperboreans, he would spend the winter months among them), the wolf and the dolphin. His attributes are the bow and arrows, on his head a laurel crown, and the cithara (or lyre) and plectrum. But his most famous attribute is the tripod, the symbol of his prophetic powers.
Hermes: Hermes, the herald of the Olympian gods, is son of Zeus and the nymph Maia, daughter of Atlas and one of the Pleiades. Hermes is the god of shepherds, land travel, merchants, weights and measures, oratory, literature, athletics and thieves, and known for his cunning and shrewdness. Most importantly, he is the messenger of the gods. Besides that he was also a minor patron of poetry. He was worshiped throughout Greece -- especially in Arcadia -- and festivals in his honour were called Hermoea.
"I would say Apollo was rather irrational and Hermes his brother was rational. Regarding this Harry and Hermione share the irrational part.
That’s explains Hermione somehow very precise she is rational and irrational Girl. This means she has two extremes if you look at the books Hermione appears at times highly emotional other times cool. There are two extremes but the the irrational she shares with Harry there exist an association
"It's ironic that her name is the female vision of her rational part of her planet."
Let's delve further into this symbolism
Slytherin is represented by a silver serpent on a green background.
Ravenclaw's symbol is an eagle not a raven.
Its colours are a blue background and a bronze eagle and its chief virtues are intelligence and wisdom.
Harry and Hermione are both very loyal, a main characteristic of Hufflepuff (PS P88 "just and loyal").
The Hufflepuff background colour is yellow with a black badger as its earthy symbol.
They both have elements of the land (lion) and Hermione has an earth birth sign.
A significant piece of symbolism that ties Harry and Hermione together is this: The lion (symbol of Gryffindor) and the eagle (symbol of Ravenclaw) are the two beasts which make up the griffin.
The griffin has the head, beak and wings of an eagle, the body of a lion and occasionally the tail of a serpent or scorpion.
So together, in partnership, Harry and Hermione symbolically ARE a griffin and they combine all the qualities of the four houses.
The obvious question is how can we be sure the Ravenclaw symbolism relates to Hermione and not Cho, Luna or another Ravenclaw?
The answer lies in further examination of clues JKR has laid.
According to the Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins:
"became a symbol of the dual nature (divine and human) of Jesus Christ precisely because of its mastery of earth and sky. The solar associations of both the eagle and lion favoured this positive reading. The griffin became the adversary of serpents and basilisks."
Note that in COS Harry and Hermione jointly solved the Chamber of Secrets mystery which involved Tom Riddle, the heir of Slytherin (snake symbol, parseltongue) and a basilisk.
Hermione came up with the idea for and creation of the Polyjuice potion which yielded key clues. There's even a scene where Harry diverts attention as Hermione steals ingredients for it. She also made the breakthrough discovery that the monster in the chamber was a basilisk. Harry is the one who sees the note she leaves. Then Harry works out the puzzle from the clues she left him. He kills the basilisk. He gets rid of Riddle.
The point here is that JKR is careful to keep Ron's involvement confined to mostly emotional support. He does take part in several scenes to do with the chamber and a few trio debates, but she keeps the lion's share of the key moments for Harry and Hermione, to fit with the symbolism.
Flying Phoenix says this about the basilisk:
"The mythical king of the serpents. The basilisk, or cockatrice, is a creature that is born from a spherical, yolkless egg, laid during the days of Sirius (the Dog Star) by a seven-year-old rooster and hatched by a toad.
The basilisk could have originated from the horned adder or hooded cobra from India. Pliny the Elder described it simply as a snake with a golden crown. By the Middle Ages, it had become a snake with the head of a cock, and sometimes with the head a human. In art, the basilisk symbolized the devil and the antichrist. To the Protestants, it was a symbol of the papacy.
According to legend, there are two species of the creature. The first kind burns everything it approaches, and the second kind can kill every living thing with a mere glance. Both species are so dreadful that their breath wilts vegetation and shatters stones. It was even believed that if a man on horseback should try to kill it with a spear, the power of the poison conducted through the weapon would not only kill the rider, but the horse as well. The only way to kill a basilisk is by holding a mirror in front of its eyes, while avoiding to look directly at it. The moment the creature sees its own reflection, it will die of fright.
However, even the basilisk has natural enemies. The weasel is immune to its glance and if it gets bitten it withdraws from the fight to eat some rue, the only plant that does not wither, and returns with renewed strength. A more dangerous enemy is the cock for should the basilisk hear it crow, it would die instantly.
The carcass of a basilisk was often hung in houses to keep spiders away. It was also used in the temples of Apollo and Diana, where no swallow ever dared to enter. In heraldry the basilisk is represented as an animal with the head, torso and legs of a cock, the tongue of a snake and the wings of a bat. The snake-like rump ends in an arrowpoint."
Flying Phoenix notes: "At hands of this I do think JKR knows very well whats a hippogriff is and what it means. To this comes I do think we will see another Basilisk this time the other species. This species could be Nanagie this snake controlled by Voldemort. JKR used this information and brought in some of her ideas but its remain the same bestia only some things are different.
Why do I think this seven your old rooster was in our case the 7th child of the Weasleys which are immun against the Basilisk."
Another point here.
Notice that Hermione has two references to flight - the eagle and the winged messenger - in her symbolic make-up whereas Harry is earth-bound with his lions and snakes. Hermione provides the symbolic 'mastery of the sky'. Yet, in reality, Harry is the master flyer and Hermione the one who needs help to leave the ground. Harry is the more impulsive, daring character, Hermione the more reasoned and analytical.
But what JKR has been doing over the past two books is to bring them slowly closer together and slowly more alike. Hermione is lightening up, becoming more confident, becoming better at the practical DADA that Harry excells at. Harry is taking more notice of Hermione's opinions and starting to become more serious about study. I once had a post where I said that had Hermione not become friends with the boys in PS, she could have turned out like Percy. They have influenced each other.
Back to griffins:
According to the Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins:
are known for "vigilance, courage and strength."
and Apollo rode one.
Yet another reference to Apollo in relation to griffins and H/Hr.
On the sulphur/mercury symbolism:
An online dictionary, says Sulphur is:
"A pale yellow nonmetallic element occurring widely in nature in several free and combined allotropic forms. It is used in black gunpowder, rubber vulcanization....native in volcanic regions ...It burns with a blue flame"
Remember, Harry's planetary associations are with fire and the Sun.
Evaluna notes: "Vulcan, the god of Fire, was black-haired, morose, possessed his own esoteric knowledge of mining and metalworking, and was often depicted as lame. He is the hidden fire in the mountain, whilst Apollo was the god of the "fire in the open sky", the sun. ... Interestingly, Harry has also symbolically been rendered "lame" by the scar on his forehead, just for starters. Harry has been rendered figuratively lame in many other ways, as well [orphaned, unloved, despised, marked, and so forth]. Harry has more compelling ties, through fire, to both Apollo/Sun [Harry's own sign, a fire sign] and Vulcan/Mars [another fire sign]. Vulcan is the brother of Mars (Ares), the god of War, and both are linked to the sun sign of Aries[fire]/ruling planet Mars. However, it was Vulcan and Apollo in mythology that had the tense, competitive, and symbiotic relationship -- each being the opposite of the other: one representing fire and light, the other, fire and darkness. One of Harry's life lessons may be to overcome the false dualism and unify these opposing forces within himself. One more thing -- Vulcan as blacksmith to the gods, forged the lightning bolts of Jupiter, or Zeus.
"The sulphur element for Harry [Harry is linked to Vulcan, god of fire [as is fire sign], though Harry is linked to Apollo as well] and the mercury element for Hermione [her ruling planet] were considered by alchemists to be the two fundamental metals of existence, such that when combined with the appropriate esoteric 'magic' [love, in our case], produced gold, considered to be the most precious of substances, with immutable worth!"
According to the Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins "originated in India where they guarded huge treasures of gold" and in Greece "griffins guarded the gold of Hyperborea - a mythical land of perpetual sunshine and happiness beyond the north wind."
So we have astrological links between Harry and Hermione (the sun, Apollo, griffins), and links involving producing (alchemy, astrological) gold and guarding gold (griffins). More golden symbolism after our earlier golden triangle.
The Zodiacal Circle of Love sees an even closer association between H/Hr through the Sun/Mercury/Vulcan symbolism:
"Mercury is known as the planetary ruler [of Virgo], while some question the possibility of a planet between the sun and Mercury that is invisible due to its nearness to the sun. They call it Vulcan. The mythical god. Vulcan, the smith of Olympus, is certainly a graphic symbol of Virgoan service and craftsmanship, which is a great expression of God’s Love for the welfare of His children. Yet, Mercury is evident in the libraries, publications, critical and scientific writings and sales ability of the sign, all of which are within the orb of Virgoan influence."
c) Hippogriffs
The griffin combines with a horse to make the hippogriff which is half horse, half bird.
(POA P87) "They had the bodies, hind legs and tails of horses, but the front legs, wings and beaks of what seemed to be giant eagles."
Harry and Hermione ride on the hippogriff Buckbeak.
The hippogriff is a symbol of love.
Why is Buckbeak a symbol of love and not impossible love?
In horse breeding terms let's say the griffin is the sire and the horse is the dam. The coming together of those two creatures represents a triumph over impossibility. Why? Because the idea of a griffin and a horse mating is considered impossible.
But, they DO get together - the impossible becomes possible, it becomes reality.
The offspring of that mating (love) is the hippogriff - the living embodiment of 'impossible' love being made possible.
Therefore, the hippogriff, the second generation, is a symbol of love, born of difficult beginnings.
The fact that it is a symbol of love is the essence of the hippogriff's identity. That has to be the reason for JKR using this creature, as opposed to a winged horse for instance.
In OOTP there are two clues showing Harry and Hermione being distracted from love by war.
During the OWL astronomy exam (OOTP P635) Harry can't concentrate on Venus (love) because of the fight at Hagrid’s hut, and then mislabels Mars (war) as Venus.
"Harry looked to his left. Hermione was gazing transfixed at Hagrid's cabin.
"Ahem - 20 minutes to go," said Professor Tofty.
Hermione jumped and returned at once to her star chart; Harry looked down at his own and noticed that he had mis-labelled Venus as Mars."
Also:
(OOTP P631) ’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’
EricaM notes: "Eihwaz, the rune of defence, is associated with the Yew tree (as in Voldies wand wood) and looks remarkably like a 'lightning' bolt - the shape of Harry's scar. Ehwaz, the rune for partnership also has keywords trust and loyalty."
Nia notes: "The symbol for partnership, ehwaz which Hermione mistook for defense in her OoP Runes OWL. The symbolic image of this rune is a horse. It’s esoteric meaning harmony, teamwork, trust, loyalty. An ideal marriage or partnership. I find it very telling that JKR should mate griffins with horses and I think the symbolic use here is very well thought out indeed and very well tied in with later developments."
The symbolism between Harry and Hermione, even before we get to the hippogriffs, points to partnership and love between them. But I also think it offers some hope that both may survive in the end.
The fact that both together symbolise the griffin and their partnership may carry the symbol of a horse, suggests offspring, the hippogriff symbol of love. We know what can come of that combination, it has already been shown to us.
There is also the blood theme to consider.
Harry and Hermione are the emerging major halfblood and mudblood enemies of Voldemort and the Malfoys.
Should they become a couple, a child of that [hated] union would be symbolic of love overcoming the 'impossible'.
There is also the alchemy of sulphur and mercury combining to 'produce' gold: perhaps a reference to more than just love but a child of that love.
Perhaps if there is to be an heir of Gryffindor, it may be Harry and Hermione's child rather Harry himself. A child would also symbolically embody the collective qualities of the four houses.
One final point: JKR has gone some way towards giving Ron what he wanted in the Mirror of Erised: head boy, Quidditch captain, holding the house and Quidditch cups. In OOTP Ron is made prefect (by default but it happened) and is hailed a hero after Gryffindor wins the Quidditch cup. Perhaps Harry will get what he wanted: a family.
Posted by Daveydee:
Quote:
On Alchemic Symbolism and the attempt to use it in reference to Harry and Hermione:
The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t, and it can’t [apply to Harry and Hermione]. To attempt to do so is to engage in Pick n’ Mix symbolism and renders it meaningless. To attempt to portray sulphur as being representative of Harry and mercury as representative of Hermione is meaningless. The symbolism of mercury and sulphur only becomes relevant as part of the alchemical process of turning base metal into gold. Outside of that environment they are no more than two random and unconnected chemical elements.
A question therefore to H/Hrers who attempt to slot Harry and Hermione into this alchemical symbolism - who represents the base metal? Ron? What transformative journey is he undertaking that is so significant in the great scheme of things?.
Alchemic symbolism is part of the symbolism JKR uses in the series, it should not be considered in isolation.
There are several obvious flaws in the Granger theory which you used as a starting point for your position.
1) His attempt to explain JKR's patterns in terms of alchemy while ignoring other key symbolic influences.
He does briefly mention mythology and legendary beasts but they play no part in his analysis which is strictly tailored to alchemy. For instance he refers to Kingsley Shacklebolt as the Black King, no doubt because of his skin colour and job as an auror/member of the Order. It's an interesting idea but he doesn't even consider the symbolism of the chess game in PS, where the black king is the most important piece on the 'good' side - the opposite of Voldemort. Surely that can't be Shacklebolt.
2) His characterisation of Harry as the passive piece of lead, shaped and turned into gold by other forces.
The fact that he does not examine the planetary and other symbolism specific to Harry, the partnership symbolism that is clearly there between Harry and Hermione, or give weight to Harry's specific and inherent powers, seriously distorts his analysis.
This is a common problem with the R/Hr position: Harry's stature has to be reduced to elevate Ron in importance and the Harry/Hermione partnership patterns are not recognised.
3) He does not take into account how Harry's relationships have evolved over the series.
For instance the Weasleys were very much Harry's surrogate family early on in the series but there has been a gradual distancing in the relationship. As Harry has grown as a person and budding leader - and JKR has ensured Hermione keeps pace with him - Dumbledore's influence has lessened slightly.
The really key change though that should have been considered by Granger and wasn't is the change within the trio.
Ron simply is not the equal partner of Hermione or the equal influence with her over Harry implied and required if Ron represents the sulphur element in the alchemic equation.
And doesn't a Ron (sulphur) /Harry (lead) /Hermione (mercury) scenario suggest that Ron and Hermione are more powerful than Harry?
1) Ron's linkage to sulphur is very tenuous.
Considering Harry in OOTP has plenty of passion and fire, Ron's 'special link' basically amounts to having red hair.
2) It is totally swamped by opposing evidence linking Harry to sulphur which I outlined in the last thread.
In my opinion it simply doesn't make sense to base one side of the coin on an astrological connection and the other on hair colour when with Harry and Hermione there are two astrological connections.
3) It simply doesn't stack up in terms of the character development in canon.
Granger does not examine any of this.
Surely it has to be important that Ron's influence and role played in adventures with Harry has waned since books 2-3? And that correspondingly Hermione's influence and role has increased?
Consider this: when Harry and Hermione were not talking in POA, Harry mastered the patronus spell under the guidance of Lupin, played a quidditch match and went to Hogsmeade. Ron has minimal impact during this period in a partnership/team work sense. When Harry and Ron were not talking in GOF Hermione taught Harry how to do the summoning spell which enabled him to get past the dragon for the First Task and saved his life later on against Voldemort. Hermione plays an essential role.
JKR has built up the team work/partnership between Harry and Hermione to the extent where they are now the leadership unit both within the trio and group of six units.
Book 1: Hermione using Harry's wand to unlock a door to allow them to escape; Harry being the instigator in coming to Hermione's rescue from the troll and jumping on it; their first adventure together with Norbert, Hermione's chocolate frog present to Harry yielding the Flamel clue and her finding out about the Stone, Hermione saving him when his broom was being jinxed, the Devil's Snare and potions puzzle.
Book 2: Hermione coming up with the idea for and creation of the polyjuice potion; Harry and Hermione stealing ingredients for it; Harry coming to Hermione's aid during the duelling session; both recognising the importance of the diary; Hermione realising the significance of Harry hearing the disembodied voice; Harry and Hermione jointly solving the chamber mystery.
Book 3: Their first big adventure together, saving Sirius with Hermione's time turner the key to that. Hermione also works out Lupin is a werewolf and with Ron saves Harry when Sirius grabs him, Harry saves himself, Hermione and Sirius from the dementors. They rescue Buckbeak and fly to Sirius' aid.
Book 4: Hermione sticks by Harry when he has his falling out with Ron; teaches him the summoning spell which is essential for the First Task and later against Voldemort; Hermione runs their practise sessions on hexes and jinxes before the Third Task; Hermione gets revenge on Rita after Rita's articles about herself, Harry, Viktor and Hagrid, after Harry gives her the idea about bugging.
Book 5: Hermione comes up with the idea for the DA which makes a very big practical difference in helping Harry in a difficult year; she asks him to teach her and others DADA in a mirror of her teaching Harry in GOF; she gets Harry's story out to the wider wizarding public which is more than the Order is able to do; Harry and Hermione have two forest adventures together; they're jointly involved in getting rid of Umbridge; together they execute the plan to escape the DEs, they fight together in the DOM each saving the other from attackers and Hermione summons Harry's wand.
Harry represents sulphur, Hermione mercury and the base material is their partnership which is gradually being turned into gold (magic, love).
I repeat, the alchemic symbolism cannot be seen in isolation. There is other symbolism that reinforces this view.
1) JKR has referred to the rune for partnership which has the symbol of a horse.
2) The griffin symbolism is only created by Harry and Hermione working together, as I outlined in my post in the last thread.
3) Griffins also guarded gold.
4) A griffin which mated with a horse produced a hippogriff.
5) A hippogriff is a symbol of love
6) Harry and Hermione flew on Buckbeak the hippogriff in POA.
104. Ron, Hermione and the Yule Brawl by Sone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveydee
I understand why it might be tempting to think that, but I am curious as to why you believe it is a crush as opposed to something deeper.
The Veelas theory for one. Ron never asked Hermione to the Yule Ball as a first but last option in fear of looking stupid because he could not get a pretty girl. Of course when he does get a pretty girl for a date, he ignores her and berates Hermione because she has a date (not that he would believe Hermione actually could get one). So let me see here, is in love with Hermione but does not ask her out to the Yule Ball. Can't get pretty girl, gets humiliated after asking pretty girl and she looks at him like he was dragon dung that she was unfortunate enough to step on, gets pretty girl but ignores her because he is upset that Hermione went with his Quidditch hero which then makes him jealous and very angry but afterwards does not take it in a word Hermione says to him that she would of gone with Ron if he just asked her first and still eyeballs Fleur like she has a bag full of galleons wrapped around her neck. Then in OOTP, after he helps Gryffindor win the Quidditch Cup, he is ruffling his hair in hopes of getting stares from some third year Hufflepuffs. I imagine (but will not state for a fact) that they were girls if he really was like a young James Potter. What bugs me the most is that he honestly thought Hermione was lying about having a date just so she would not have to go with Neville. What Prongs Sr said earlier is taken as a positive point. Hermione's frustration that Ron doesn't think she's pretty .....
He did not think Hermione was pretty or appealing enough to actually have a date. He absolutely refused to believe otherwise. She kept telling him and he completely ignored her and it was that...that made her very angry. I wonder how it would feel for one of your best friends to think you are too unappealing to even have a date. To say it to your face that you are lying without a problem and then actually smile as you are getting more and more upset. Personally, I thought Ron was being suidicial. She could not convince Ron that she actually had a date. "You are a girl." What was she before? Just one of the boys with a feminine side? Ginny had to tell Ron that she was not lying. Now he wants to know who her date is (the one he did not think existed), but Ginny would not tell him. Hermione would not either because she was afraid that Ron would make in front of her and hey....who's Ron to disappoint? Yes, it would hurt her, it should and it did. If one of your own best friends cannot say anything good about you then who would? So at the Yule Ball itself, Ron goes into a further tangent that Hermione is not appealing to Viktor. He is just using her to get inside information on Harry. The implication that she is too foolish to see it because she cannot believe her luck in getting Viktor Krum for a date. Why else would he ask her out? Like Hermione said "how you could you say such a thing?" Between Ron thinking Hermione is lying about having a date and the Yule Ball, is Ron making a terrible attempt to cover his jealousy at Hermione's expense or does he really believe Hermione is so ugly, her personality so bad that no one let alone an international quidditch player who can have any girl he wants would ask her out? I believe Ron got jealous for the same reason he got jealous of Harry. Harry is famous, he's a Quidditch hero (best seeker in the school), he's rich, triwizard champion, his celebrity status lets him get away with things, etc. Hermione has all the brains, always exceeds in all the classes, but at least she is not popular or pretty. But now she is not only super intelligent, but now she looks incredible.....and unattainable. She basically surprises everybody with how good she looks and now she is arm and arm with his Quidditch hero....an internationally famous player who asked her out. Asked her out when she was bushy haired looking like the hunchback of Notre Dame with all those books that she was carrying on her back. It is just became too much and he had to throw it all up and it came all around Harry and Hermione, much to their surprise. He does not have Hermione's brains, he does not have Harry's status. His robes look like a dress and even his date was arranged for him by Harry. Harry and Hermione in turn tell him, well he can have it. Harry's like take the fame and the scar, he is tired of people gawking at his forehead like an interesting museum exhibit. Hermione tells him if you don't like it, ask me out before anyone else does and not as a last resort. Ron still doesn't get it. That is not love....it's shallow and possessive infatuation. He is interested in the idea of Hermione. That may be why he gave her that perfume. Afterall, how could he not want a girl that was appealing enough to be asked out by the internationally famous Quidditch player? Same with Harry. He is interested in the idea of what Harry has. He sees all the positives, but he does not see nor want the negatives.
105. JKR and Jane Austen by Nia
If Ms. Rowling is indeed developing an Austen-styled romantic pairing with Hermione as the central female focus, then it needs to follow the realistic romantic patterns found in Austen’s novels. Austen’s characters, unlike those in our modern popular film and books, rather than fall in love, grow in love gradually. Love, she asserts through her wonderful stories, must be based in mutual respect and a thorough knowledge of each other. She emphasizes in more than one novel that passion can blind us to reality and that infatuation is a deception. Love which develops slowly and through extended close association is the most enduring. She has received much criticism over the last two hundred years that her romances are boring. What they tend to be is realistic.
The whole concept of “love at first sight” is an old one. Remember Romeo and Juliet? One glance at a dance and they are swearing undying love and planning to marry. A nice fantasy, but real love isn’t like that. In Austen’s stories, people may be attracted at first sight, but it takes many pages for them to learn enough about each other to consider marriage. People can still identify with Austen’s stories because she has gotten to the truth of human nature. It doesn’t matter that she wrote nearly 200 years ago, human nature hasn’t changed that much, only our society. Austen, unlike our modern fast-buck fiction writers, never romanticizes romance.
Let’s take a look first at Pride and Prejudice, the novel most cited by Austen-loving members of the ‘good ship’ (R/Hr) to justify the Ron/Hermione pairing. In this best-known of Austen’s works, there is an attraction of ‘opposing’ personalities; Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy. This is manifested in the prototype Tracy/Hepburn sexual antagonism we know so well. It is a contest of wills-a power play-a combat.
Although this is very exciting to watch in a film or read in a novel, Austen sees this only as a sexual attraction and a means by which the characters can begin to understand one another, it is not the courtship and certainly not the romance. It is a type of infatuation. Sexual antagonism, a more basal, animalistic attraction is, by its nature a conflict. And in so being it creates a need for domination by one partner or the other and cannot by itself foster lasting love either in the Austen universe or in the real world. Only knowledge born from close acquaintance will do that. That is why Elizabeth and Darcy, about halfway through the novel move away from the antagonism into a long stretch during which they begin to understand and respect each other. The more they learn about each other the more they can respect each other and the deeper their love grows. By the end of the novel, Elizabeth thinks of Darcy as the finest man she has ever known.
The first very big difference in the Ron/Hermione situation and that of Elizabeth and Darcy is that Austen’s characters are intellectual equals, Ron, while a marvelous chess strategist, has no where near Hermione’s practical analytical ability. He often misses things that Harry and Hermione seem to comprehend almost by telepathy. Moreover, the majority of the things Ron says to Hermione ridicule her intellect, the thing she’s best at. This is clearly a form of domination.
Even when he is trying to defend her, feminists might argue that is a form of domination too-especially since she is perfectly capable of defending herself.
Ron is simply clueless as to how to approach Hermione and kindness and respect don’t seem to have been added to his repertoire even as late as book five-though he seems to be improving somewhat. There are some that say Ron’s barbs might help her lighten up a bit and be honest with the fact that she has been hiding behind her grades and academic accomplishments. They contend that Ron is helping to bring her out more. The text, however, seems to show her natural anger at being mocked for having a brain. She replies in kind, generally with some unkind remark about Ron’s lack of understanding.
Now, compare this to the cutting remarks Elizabeth throws at Darcy. Darcy, when she first meets him at a dance, is rude, prideful, arrogant and insulting. He is used to sycophantic women because he is quite wealthy. Although it would be in her best social interest to simper and bow to him, her clever and pointed words let him know in no uncertain terms that she is not impressed by his wealth or associations and is every bit his intellectual equal. She challenges him in ways no other woman has before. This causes him to become fascinated enough to learn more about her.
Sexual antagonism is viewed by Austen as a form of infatuation and is employed in her novels only to make characters known to each other. It is not the way to lasting romance as it is in modern romances which employ this technique. In Pride and Prejudice, true love between Elizabeth and Darcy develops only as they both go through intensive self-reevaluations which enable them to see how mistaken they had been about each other. Then the romance can begin.
Ron and Hermione have, for the first four books and some of the fifth, had a rather antagonistic relationship. He spent much of the first book scowling at her for always knowing the answer. The following, from CoS, is quite typical:
“Why, demanded Ron, seizing her schedule, “have you outlined all of Lockhart’s lessons in little hearts?” (CoS Chapter 6)
I’m trying, but I can’t imagine Harry ever grabbing anything from Hermione. Looking at other moments of Ron/Hermione interaction, you will see a pattern of domination. Even when he teases her, it is not intellectual challenge as much as it is simple put-downs.
According to the guidelines of the Austen Universe, what we see between Ron and Hermione is infatuation. Crushes, flirtations and infatuation come on easily and quickly and sometimes feel much like the real thing. The big problem with infatuation is that there is no spiritual connection between the partners-no true knowledge. I’d challenge any Ron/Hermione shipper to show where in canon other than the Book One giant chess match, Ron and Hermione have a mutual respect for each other’s intellect. More than one Austen heroine has been deceived by an infatuation only to come to their senses further along in the story and recognize the power of a love that has been growing slowly and steadily from nearly the beginning of the story.
Essential to all Austen novels is the big question of who loves whom and how much. One technique used to keep the reader turning pages and guessing is the setting out of indirect clues. Any reader of Austen has to be on the lookout for small signs of one character’s romantic interest in another and, as a consequence, becomes a detective of sorts. I may be wrong, but I can’t imagine Ms. Rowling, being the great lover of mystery that she is, not employing this technique to some extent in the series.
The Ron/Hermione relationship has been too blatant and emotional to fit an Austenesque pattern of a slowly developing mutual trust and understanding. In the five books to date, they have not seemed to have discovered anything new about each other. Ron started off in Book One calling Hermione a “know-it-all” and was still calling her that in Book Three. In Book five, he is generally rude to her (Hermione’s words, not mine) except when he needs her to help him with his homework. I’ve only seen three instances where Harry ‘catches Ginny’s eye,’ my guess is that an eventual pairing between Harry and Hermione is the one being foreshadowed this way. Because the subtext and small clues are so subtle, people supporting other SHIPS often claim there is nothing in canon at all. (Snip-space where examples of these clues were given) And what do the clues point towards? A deep friendship, mutual trust and understanding, and above all respect-all of the key elements in an ideal Austen love match.
We know very little of James and Lily Potter except that Lily give James a hard time about being a self-absorbed git when they were fifteen. We do not see him throw any cutting remarks to her in return during the Pensieve scene, but what we are told (by Sirius) is that James changed for her-much like Darcy changed for Elizabeth. We know nothing of their actual romance as yet. As for Arthur and Molly Weasley, Molly is the vituperative one, Arthur is more accommodating unless there is something of special import at stake. Only for serious reasons does he ever argue with her, but most of the time they are supportive of each other
Now, briefly looking at Emma, there are no obvious clues throuh much of the book that Emma likes Knightly. He is an old friend of the family-more like a brother. He is the one who comes down rather hard on her when she is acting beneath her intellegence. He criticizes the things she does, not her personally, and she takes it (sometimes with great protest) despite her independence, because she knows he is right. Again, however, we are dealing with intellectual equals. During the course of events they come to an agreement not to argue although there is still a contest of wills. It is when he is disappointed in her over her rudeness to the simple and agreeable Miss Bates, that she finally sees how much his good opinion matters to her. What ensues is a period of soul searching on Emma’s part during which she not only agrees with Knightly's assessment of her behavior, but endeavors to make amends and realizes her deep love for him. If anything, Emma and Knightly again sound like Harry and Hermione.
I think it is safe to say that JKR has noticed all the finer points of Austen’s writing seeing as how she had to repurchase Emma several times, she read it so often.
The following post is very, very long and is in response to Mad-I Moody's recent counter-arguments.
Originally Posted by Mad-I Moody:
Quote:
The main romances in Pride and Prejudice and Emma are born out of antagonistic interactions. When Elizabeth first meets Darcy, he's a real prat. He's rude, he's arrogant. I wish I had my copy of PS/SS with me, but I don't. All I know is that Hermione comes across on her first meeting with Ron and Harry as quite insufferable (NOT Hermione bashing here. I love Hermione, I promise). She throws a couple of barbs at Ron (perhaps unintentionally), and the sparring begins.
To which I responded:
You have made this all too simplistic and I think you might have forgotten some of the finer details. My whole point was that the romances are NOT born out of antagonistic interactions in these novels (and they are very different) One of Austen’s enduring ideas is that antagonism is NOT romance, it is like an introduction-it can make a couple known to each other. Unlike modern authors, Austen did not perceive antagonism as a mating dance. The idea that antagonism introduces the couple has a place in Pride and Prejudice, but doesn’t fit Emma at all, since Knightly was there when Emma was born and knew her all her life.
To which Mad-I Moody responded
Quote:
I'm afraid you've lost me a bit here. (Recounting my positions)
1. Romances are not born out of antagonistic interactions in Austen's novels (the novels in question)
2. Austen's 'enduring idea' of antagonism is that it is like an introduction - it can make a couple known to each other
3. Antagonism only introduces characters in Pride and Prejudice, not in Emma
Just to clarify your position in my mind, bear with me: In Pride and Prejudice, Darcy and Elizabeth are antagonistic to each other. This is, effectively, their introduction. Later, they realize that, in spite of their bickering, they love each other.
No, it is more complex than that. Elizabeth is rather hostile towards Darcy because, quite frankly she thinks he is an overbearing snob. The barbs she tosses his way (all done within the boundaries of protocol) make him aware of her intelligence and force him to look at her as an individual rather than a type. (Simple and undereducated daughter of a country estate owner) Their mutual antagonism is how they are made known to each other-a proper introduction in Austen’s world is something entirely different and involves seeing with the heart. It is only after the hostilities (Elizabeth's) cease that she can begin to perceive him (truly know him) and the romance can begin. From this point, the romance can follow the normal Austen pattern of growing together in mutual trust and regard even though most clues pointing towards a final pairing are disguised and subtle.
In the modern romance a la Tracy/Hepburn, the antagonism comes about because of unresolved sexual tension, the dislike is focused and unreasoning as are the disagreements and the relationship is born within the antagonism. This, is the dynamic of the Ron/Hermione relationship as presented by the Huron, not the P&P Austen model.
Elizabeth is predisposed to like Darcy and has every reason not to when he is so openly disagreeable. She is not alone in her dislike. Everyone at the Meryton Ball disliked him as well. On several occasions within the novel, she is in the process of changing her opinion of him when she is suddenly confronted by some new and damaging piece of evidence that condemns him afresh. I will explain in detail later.
Later in the same post Mad-I Moody wrote:
Quote:
I'm not trying to equate Ron or Hermione to either Elizabeth or Darcy - their situations (setting, culture, reasons for bickering) are quite different. I'm simply saying that Darcy and Elizabeth bickered quite often throughout the novel, yet a certain respect for one another grew in spite of their differences, (or what they perceived as such), and, of course, they also came to love each other.
I think you are still forgetting important details of both novels as well as the progression of the narrative in both Pride and Prejudice and Emma which render both your assertions and your criticisms invalid. Modern interpretations of Austen novels on stage and film have been translated by directors and script writers into visual interactions that modern audiences can comprehend. I used the word "antagonism" in my original post, not "bickering." Antagonism can take many forms. Excruciatingly correct manners, rather than ease and openness can be interpreted by a reader as an expression of antagonism. Another is irony--veiled sarcasm and sagacious wit which means the opposite of what is said is another technique used by Austen.
Pride and Prejudice is about first impressions. In fact “First Impressions” was the original title of the story. In her interactions with Darcy, Elizabeth is always civil (except when she refuses his proposal.) She makes her disparaging remarks to Darcy behind his back to her sisters, friends or parents or to his face in the form of sarcasm hidden behind good manners. Her intrinsic desire to distinguish herself from her mother’s imprudence and to establish her good breeding to Darcy prevents her acting any other way. Darcy’s pride prevents him from stooping to verbal confrontations which he feels are beneath him and he is always cool and detached, no matter his disposition until the moment he makes his first proposal. Whenever he counters her it is always done in a genteel and socially acceptable manner. Darcy is never openly hostile towards Elizabeth, which in Regency England would be considered boorish. It is her misguided IMPRESSIONS of him and his sensibilities that move the novel forward.
I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said that antagonism only introduces characters so let’s take a look at how Elizabeth’and Darcy are first made known to each other:
The following excerpt is from Chapter Three:
Mr. Bingley was good-looking and gentlemanlike; he had a pleasant countenance, and easy, unaffected manners. His sisters were fine women, with an air of decided fashion. His brother-in-law, Mr. Hurst, merely looked the gentleman; but his friend Mr. Darcy soon drew the attention of the room by his fine, tall person, handsome features, noble mien, and the report which was in general circulation within five minutes after his entrance, of his having ten thousand a year. The gentlemen pronounced him to be a fine figure of a man, the ladies declared he was much handsomer than Mr. Bingley, and he was looked at with great admiration for about half the evening, till his manners gave a disgust which turned the tide of his popularity; for he was discovered to be proud; to be above his company, and above being pleased; and not all his large estate in Derbyshire could then save him from having a most forbidding, disagreeable countenance, and being unworthy to be compared with his friend.
Mr. Bingley had soon made himself acquainted with all the principal people in the room; he was lively and unreserved, danced every dance, was angry that the ball closed so early, and talked of giving one himself at Netherfield. Such amiable qualities must speak for themselves. What a contrast between him and his friend! Mr. Darcy danced only once with Mrs. Hurst and once with Miss Bingley, declined being introduced to any other lady, and spent the rest of the evening in walking about the room, speaking occasionally to one of his own party. His character was decided. He was the proudest, most disagreeable man in the world, and everybody hoped that he would never come there again. Amongst the most violent against him was Mrs. Bennet, whose dislike of his general behaviour was sharpened into particular resentment by his having slighted one of her daughters.
Elizabeth Bennet had been obliged, by the scarcity of gentlemen, to sit down for two dances; and during part of that time, Mr. Darcy had been standing near enough for her to hear a conversation between him and Mr. Bingley, who came from the dance for a few minutes, to press his friend to join it.
"Come, Darcy," said he, "I must have you dance. I hate to see you standing about by yourself in this stupid manner. You had much better dance."
"I certainly shall not. You know how I detest it, unless I am particularly acquainted with my partner. At such an assembly as this it would be insupportable. Your sisters are engaged, and there is not another woman in the room whom it would not be a punishment to me to stand up with."
"I would not be so fastidious as you are," cried Mr. Bingley, "for a kingdom! Upon my honour, I never met with so many pleasant girls in my life as I have this evening; and there are several of them you see uncommonly pretty."
"YOU are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room," said Mr. Darcy, looking at the eldest Miss Bennet.
"Oh! She is the most beautiful creature I ever beheld! But there is one of her sisters sitting down just behind you, who is very pretty, and I dare say very agreeable. Do let me ask my partner to introduce you."
"Which do you mean?" and turning round he looked for a moment at Elizabeth, till catching her eye, he withdrew his own and coldly said: "She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt ME; I am in no humour at present to give consequence to young ladies who are slighted by other men. You had better return to your partner and enjoy her smiles, for you are wasting your time with me."
Now, at this point, all is set in place for Elizabeth to dislike Darcy even though they have had no interaction at all. His response to Bingley clearly shows his disapproval of the town of Meryton and all the people in it.
The following conversation with Lady Lucas reveals Elizabeth’s antagonistic feelings toward Darcy: she is hostile towards him as the next passage shows but has not confronted him with any of this to his face.
From Chapter 4: (Lady Lucas is speaking)
…If I may so express it, he has a RIGHT to be proud."
"That is very true," replied Elizabeth, "and I could easily forgive HIS pride, if he had not mortified MINE."
Elizabeth is hurt and angry. Darcy, on the other hand, after criticizing her at the ball, then returns to Netherfield to make disparaging remarks to his friend Bingley and his sisters about Elizabeth and the imprudence of Elizabeth’s mother among other things. His attitude is antagonistic.
At the next social gathering, however, Darcy begins to rethink his first impression. Darcy’s antagonism lasts only five chapters and yet they have had no proper interactions. His new assessments of her are not born out of his antagonism towards the “confining and savage” country situation, but because he has effectively seen that she contradicts his prior first impression.
Elizabeth and her sisters have been invited to Netherfield, Darcy’s friend Bingley’s new estate by his sisters . This passage is from Chapter 6 in which we see some of Darcy’s interiority:
Occupied in observing Mr. Bingley's attentions to her sister, Elizabeth was far from suspecting that she was herself becoming an object of some interest in the eyes of his friend. Mr. Darcy had at first scarcely allowed her to be pretty; he had looked at her without admiration at the ball; and when they next met, he looked at her only to criticise. But no sooner had he made it clear to himself and his friends that she hardly had a good feature in her face, than he began to find it was rendered uncommonly intelligent by the beautiful expression of her dark eyes. To this discovery succeeded some others equally mortifying. Though he had detected with a critical eye more than one failure of perfect symmetry in her form, he was forced to acknowledge her figure to be light and pleasing; and in spite of his asserting that her manners were not those of the fashionable world, he was caught by their easy playfulness. Of this she was perfectly unaware; to her he was only the man who made himself agreeable nowhere, and who had not thought her handsome enough to dance with.
Now, in their first interaction, we see how Elizabeth veils her great dislike of Darcy in sarcasm. In this passage from Chapter 6, Sir William Lucas, is having a party at Lucas Lodge and is trying to encourage Darcy to dance with Elizabeth:
"
My dear Miss Eliza, why are you not dancing? Mr. Darcy, you must allow me to present this young lady to you as a very desirable partner. You cannot refuse to dance, I am sure when so much beauty is before you." And, taking her hand, he would have given it to Mr. Darcy who, though extremely surprised, was not unwilling to receive it, when she instantly drew back, and said with some discomposure to Sir William:
"Indeed, sir, I have not the least intention of dancing. I entreat you not to suppose that I moved this way in order to beg for a partner."
Mr. Darcy, with grave propriety, requested to be allowed the honour of her hand, but in vain. Elizabeth was determined; nor did Sir William at all shake her purpose by his attempt at persuasion.
"You excel so much in the dance, Miss Eliza, that it is cruel to deny me the happiness of seeing you; and though this gentleman dislikes the amusement in general, he can have no objection, I am sure, to oblige us for one half-hour."
"Mr. Darcy is all politeness," said Elizabeth, smiling.
"He is, indeed; but, considering the inducement, my dear Miss Eliza, we cannot wonder at his complaisance - for who would object to such a partner?"
Elizabeth looked archly, and turned away. Her resistance had not injured her with the gentleman, and he was thinking of her with some complacency, (in this passage this means, of course pleasure)
Notice that he is not even aware at this point that she has snubbed him--There is no bickering.
As the novel continues, Darcy makes a rather unpleasant reference about country life to Elizabeth’s mother who takes some offence.
Additionally, he makes a comment on a proper lady’s education, but now, in Elizabeth’s absence, he refuses to join in criticizing her with Mr. Bingley’s haughty sisters.
In Chapter 11, the two of them have an intellectual exchange, but it can hardly be deemed bickering, since all of the sarcasm is on Elizabeth’s side. Darcy is quite honest with her:
The following is a conversation which was presented differently in the film, since it failed to show the irony of Elizabeth’s words by having her smile as she does here:
Darcy is speaking to Elizabeth:
"Perhaps that is not possible for anyone. But it has been the study of my life to avoid those weaknesses which often expose a strong understanding to ridicule."
"Such as vanity and pride."
"Yes, vanity is a weakness indeed. But pride - where there is a real superiority of mind, pride will be always under good regulation."
Elizabeth turned away to hide a smile.
"Your examination of Mr. Darcy is over, I presume," said Miss Bingley; "and pray what is the result?"
"I am perfectly convinced by it that Mr. Darcy has no defect. He owns it himself without disguise."
"No," said Darcy, "I have made no such pretension. I have faults enough, but they are not, I hope, of understanding. My temper I dare not vouch for. It is, I believe, too little yielding-certainly too little for the convenience of the world. I cannot forget the follies and vices of other so soon as I ought, nor their offenses against myself. My feelings are not puffed about with every attempt to move them. My temper would perhaps be called resentful. My good opinion once lost, is lost forever."
"THAT is a failing indeed!" cried Elizabeth. "Implacable resentment IS a shade in a character. But you have chosen your fault well. I really cannot LAUGH at it. You are safe from me."
"There is, I believe, in every disposition a tendency to some particular evil - a natural defect, which not even the best education can overcome."
"And YOUR defect is to hate everybody."
"And yours, "he replied with a smile, "is willfully to misunderstand them."
"Do let us have a little music," cried Miss Bingley, tired of a conversation in which she had no share. "Louisa, you will not mind my waking Mr. Hurst?"
Darcy at this point is openly studying her and his comments are made with a smile to convey his amusement at her (obvious) error in judging his character. Of course, a reader would not know how much she had misjudged until Darcy’s true character is revealed much later in the novel.
So, we are up to Chapter 11 and no bickering yet. Let us move on…
In Chapter 17, we see Darcy trying hard not to stare at Elizabeth as we meet Mr. Wickham for the first time. Later, at still another gathering, after hearing that Wickham knows Darcy, Elizabeth is eager to hear the circumstances of the meeting. I might add that at this point in the story, Elizabeth might have had reason for thinking she had been mistaken in Darcy, since she has heard such good things about him from Jane who was ill for a spell at Netherfield. It is Wickham’s appearance and his sad story of mistreatment at Darcy’s hands that seems to confirm her first impression. At this point Darcy seems to her a puzzle, while he is steadily falling in love with her and is secretly harboring no such ill feelings toward her.
This conversation is one they had while dancing together at Netherfield. From Chapter 18:
"
The PRESENT always occupies you in such scenes - does it?" said he, with a look of doubt.
"Yes, always," she replied, without knowing what she said, for her thoughts had wandered far from the subject, as soon afterwards appeared by her suddenly exclaiming, "I remember hearing you once say, Mr. Darcy, that you hardly ever forgave, that you resentment once created was unappeasable. You are very cautious, I suppose, as to its BEING CREATED."
"I am," said he, with a firm voice.
"And never allow yourself to be blinded by prejudice?"
"I hope not."
"It is particularly incumbent on those who never change their opinion, to be secure of judging properly at first.
"May I ask to what these questions tend?"
"Merely to the illustration of YOUR character," said she, endeavouring to shake off her gravity. "I am trying to make it out."
"And what is your success?"
She shook her head. "I do not get on at all. I hear such different accounts of you as puzzle me exceedingly."
"I can readily believe," answered he gravely, "that reports may vary greatly with respect to me; and I could wish, Miss Bennet, that you were not to sketch my character at the present moment, as there is reason to fear that the performance would reflect no credit on either."
So, here we are at Chapter 18 without any of the celebrated bickering.
Elizabeth goes to see her friend Charlotte Lucas, who has married the sycophantic Mr. Collins. They are all invited to Rosings, the home of the haughty Lady Catherine de Bourgh, Darcy’s aunt. She is eager to see how Darcy reacts to Lady Catherine’s daughter, whom the Bingley sisters have said Darcy is intended to marry. Elizabeth looks closely, but observes no change in his manner towards the girl.
Darcy and Elizabeth have another conversation in which each challenges the other’s wit, but it can hardly be thought of as bickering. Those who have read the novel before know that at this point, Darcy is fascinated by Elizabeth’s intelligence and has every intention of proposing. The group has just been discussing how well Darcy’s sister plays the pianoforte. Here, from Chapter 32, is their conversation, playful, on his part, satirical on hers:
When coffee was over, Colonel Fitzwilliam reminded Elizabeth of having promised to play to him; and she sat down directly to the instrument. He drew a chair near her. Lady Catherine listened to half a song, and then talked, as before, to her other nephew; till the latter walked away from her, and making with his usual deliberation towards the pianoforte stationed himself so as to command a full view of the fair performer's countenance. Elizabeth saw what he was doing, and at the first convenient pause, turned to him with an arch smile, and said:
"You mean to frighten me, Mr. Darcy, by coming in all this state to hear me? I will not be alarmed though your sister DOES play so well. There is a stubbornness about me that never can bear to be frightened at the will of others. My courage always rises at every attempt to intimidate me."
"I shall not say you are mistaken," he replied, "because you could not really believe me to entertain any design of alarming you; and I have had the pleasure of your acquaintance long enough to know that you find great enjoyment in occasionally professing opinions which in fact are not your own."
Elizabeth laughed heartily at this picture of herself, and said to Colonel Fitzwilliam, "Your cousin will give you a very pretty notion of me, and teach you not to believe a word I say. I am particularly unlucky in meeting with a person so able to expose my real character, in a part of the world where I had hoped to pass myself off with some degree of credit. Indeed, Mr. Darcy, it is very ungenerous in you to mention all that you knew to my disadvantage in Hertfordshire - and, give me leave to say, very impolitic too - for it is provoking me to retaliate, and such things may come out as will shock your relations to hear."
"I am not afraid of you," said he, smilingly.
"Pray let me hear what you have to accuse him of," cried Colonel Fitzwilliam. "I should like to know how he behaves among strangers."
"You shall hear then - but prepare yourself for something very dreadful. The first time of my ever seeing him in Hertfordshire, you must know, was at a ball - and at this ball, what do you think he did? He danced only four dances, though gentlemen were scarce; and, to my certain knowledge, more than one young lady was sitting down in want of a partner. Mr. Darcy, you cannot deny the fact."
"I had not at that time the honour of knowing any lady in the assembly beyond my own party."
"True; and nobody can ever be introduced in a ball-room. Well, Colonel Fitzwilliam, what do I play next? My fingers wait your orders."
"Perhaps," said Darcy, "I should have judged better, had I sought an introduction; but I am ill-qualified to recommend myself to strangers."
Shall we ask your cousin the reason of this?" said Elizabeth, still addressing Colonel Fitzwilliam. "Shall we ask him why a man of sense and education, and who has lived in the world, is ill qualified to recommend himself to strangers?"
"I can answer your question," said Fitzwilliam, "without applying to him. It is because he will not give himself the trouble."
"I certainly have not the talent which some people possess," said Darcy, "of conversing easily with those I have never seen before.
I cannot catch their tone of conversation, or appear interested in their concerns, as I often see done."
"My fingers," said Elizabeth, "do not move over this instrument in the masterly manner which I see so many women's do. They have not the same force or rapidity, and do not produce the same expression. But then I have always supposed it to be my own fault - because I will not take the trouble of practising. It is not that I do not believe MY fingers as capable as any other woman's of superior execution."
Darcy smiled and said, "You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting. We neither of us perform to strangers."
Here they were interrupted by Lady Catherine, who called out to know what they were talking of.
We know for a fact that Darcy was fascinated by her at this point, because following this interaction, he comes calling at the parsonage very often and meets Elizabeth walking on several occasions. Again, Elizabeth’s feelings might have begun to swing in his direction were it not that Colonel Fitzwilliam, Darcy’s cousin, informed Elizabeth without knowing what he was saying, that Darcy was responsible for keeping her sister, Jane and Mr. Bingley apart. The loss of Mr. Bingley’s company had severely affected Elizabeth’s sister and this news renewed her dislike of Darcy.
Now, we come to the point, where Darcy makes one of the most horrible proposals in all literature. He tells Elizabeth in no uncertain terms that he loves her against his will and that her family is quite beneath him, but he wants to marry her anyway. Elizabeth, of course refuses, but it is here that she openly and succinctly lays out her reasons. Included in these objections are his mistreatment of Wickham and his part in keeping her sister from the man she loved. Darcy does not explain himself at this point and remains civil, but his face changes from pale to red as she mentions Wickham. He listens to her accusations then makes his only impassioned speech in the entire novel:
Chapter 34:
"And this," cried Darcy, as he walked with quick steps across
the room, "Is your opinion of me! This is the estimation in which you hold me! I thank you for explaining it so fully. My faults, according to this calculation, are heavy indeed! But perhaps," added he, stopping in his walk, and turning towards her, "these offenses might have been overlooked, had not your pride been hurt by my honest confession of the scruples that had long prevented my forming any serious design. These bitter accusations might have been suppressed, had I, with greater policy, concealed my struggles, and flattered you into the belief of my being impelled by unqualified, unalloyed inclination; by reason, by reflection, by everything. But disguise of every sort is my abhorrence. Nor am I ashamed of the feelings I related. They were natural and just. Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections? - to congratulate myself on the hope of relations, whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own?"
Elizabeth felt herself growing more angry every moment; yet she tried to the utmost to speak with composure when she said:
"You are mistaken, Mr. Darcy, if you suppose that the mode of your declaration affected me in any other way, than as it spared the concern which I might have felt in refusing you, had you behaved in a more gentlemanlike manner."
She saw him start at this, but he said nothing, and she continued:
"You could not have made the offer of your hand in any possible way that would have tempted me to accept it."
This is the only open confrontation between the two of them in the entire novel. This is where her prejudice and his pride are finally brought out into the open-to be carefully examined by the two of them.
After this Darcy gives her a letter which explains the terrible truth about Wickham and Elizabeth is forced to reexamine her prejudices. This is where all Elizabeth's hostilities cease completely. This is where she begins to be introduced to Mr. Darcy and where the actual romance begins. The more she learns about Darcy the more she loves him until the end when she declares him the “finest man I have ever met.”
There is, quite simply put, no “bickering” in Pride and Prejudice where any kind of comparison could be drawn between the Ron and Hermione dynamic.
I’ve gone into extreme detail in Pride and Prejudice, because it is the novel most cited by R/Hr to support their ship.
The other novel you cited, Emma, I don’t need to detail out so much.
Originally Posted by Mad-I Moody:
Quote:
However, in Emma, Darcy and Emma's verbal sparring is…what, in your opinion, if not Austen's "enduring" idea of antagonism as an introduction? Perhaps it is merely an interlude? Antagonism as preface before the romance begins? Obviously, the quarrelling between couples in these two novels is based on different circumstances. However, both novels contain couples who bicker with one another for a lengthy portion of the story, until, at the end of the day, they realize that they truly love one another. The love was growing, even during the times they were quarrelling.
Again, you have misunderstood my original intent. I never said that what went on between Emma and Knightley was sexual antagonism. In fact, it is quite easy to miss their potential as a couple entirely since there is no tension. They are never introduced to each other in the novel, because they have known and loved each other for years. This is the situation in Emma as the story opens:
Chap 1 Emma’s description:
Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her.
Knightley’s description:
Mr. Knightley, a sensible man about seven or eight-and-thirty, was not only a very old and intimate friend of the family, but particularly connected with it, as the elder brother of Isabella's husband. He lived about a mile from Highbury, was a frequent visitor, and always welcome, and at this time more welcome than usual, as coming directly from their mutual connexions in London.
I might add here that Isabella is Emma's sister.
Their relationship in a nutshell (from Chapter One): (Emma is speaking)
"My dearest papa! You do not think I could mean you, or suppose Mr. Knightley to mean you. What a horrible idea! Oh no! I meant only myself. Mr. Knightley loves to find fault with me, you know-in a joke - it is all a joke. We always say what we like to one another."
Mr. Knightley, in fact, was one of the few people who could see faults in Emma Woodhouse, and the only one who ever told her of them: and though this was not particularly agreeable to Emma herself, she knew it would be so much less so to her father, that she would not have him really suspect such a circumstance as her not being thought perfect by every body.
In Emma, Knightley has been in love with Emma for years before the story opens. It might be argued that Emma loves him too, although she is unaware of this until the end of the story. The interactions we witness between them are a result of Emma’s refusal to see anything wrong with what she is doing in trying to remake Harriet Smith. Knightley is concerned for the human lives (more than one) that could be ruined by Emma’s capricious interference, yet, this is not what the story is about.
I have already shown how Elizabeth and Darcy do not, in fact, “bicker” at all. The term bicker implies a squabbling interaction. If Elizabeth and Darcy do not bicker, neither do Emma and Knightley, nor is there any antagonism between them. They have specific disagreements over specific things and through everything Emma knows that Knightley is right and in spite of everything Knightley loves her. When they are not having a discussion over Emma’s erroneous handling of Harriet Smith, they are very companionable and both of them speak of each other with the highest regard and affection.
Emma is so self-reliant, she does not realize she needs romantic love at all, nor can she truly see its worth for others. Harriet Smith loves Robert Martin, yet Emma dismisses this because she regards Martin as beneath her and beneath Harriet as well, although, in truth, she is lucky to have him. Emma honestly believes she can manipulate lives to suit her whims and as a result dismisses Knightley’s good advice out of hand.
Emma’s story is a journey of self-discovery. The series of comic events that ensue as a result of her meddling cause her to turn inward and examine her own feelings. No one truly changes in the course of this novel except Emma herself. This scenario does not fit, even on a superficial level the Ron/Hermione relationship in the Potterverse.
Now, back to my original reason for bringing in Austen: My essay (although I only included an exerpt on this thread) was originally written to look at patterns of behavior in Austen that would point to her beliefs about romance. In Austen, there is always a question of who loves whom and how much. She intersperses clues such as glances and blushes, signs of confusion or jealousy-all carefully guarded and hidden, of course.
Both Emma and Elizabeth think of themselves as experts on romance yet are unaware of their own hearts. Because they are unaware, the reader is also unaware of how they feel. There are small clues that can be passed over if one is not attentive. For example, in P&P Elizabeth is certain that Bingley is in love with Jane because he looks at Elizabeth’s face hoping to see some semblance to Jane there, but she misses completely the fact that she’d been examining Lady Catherine’s face to see any likeness of Darcy there.
That JKR was influenced by Austen’s writing style is a given. There are many small similarities in exposition and delivery and in character development that clearly demonstrate that. What we don’t know yet is how strongly JKR was influenced by Austen’s romantic style. But, with what I know of Austen, not just these two novels but her other works as well, if I were a gambler, I’d bet the character dynamics as well as all those subtle little Austen-styled clues are pointing to H/Hr, not R/Hr.
106. The Viktor Krum theory by Hawk 92
Having heard that the HMS Harmony is based on wishful thinking and over reading of text I think that this is long overdue (all text quoted comes from the US versions of the Harry Potter Series, in the case of Gof the paperback edition, and for that reason I will include the chapters and their titles with them). This post will be broken down (reasons of length) into the following parts,
1.) Hermione & Fleur: The initial meeting
2.) Hermione’s reactions to Fleur
3.) Hermione and Krum before the Second Task
4.) Analysis of the Second Task
5.) Development of Hermione’s feelings after the Second Task
6.) Analysis of the red herrings in Gof.
PART ONE - Hermione & Fleur: The initial meeting.
In an attempt to take all evidence into consideration we will begin our analysis with the first interaction between Hermione and Fleur.
Gof Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire pg 250-251 US.
"Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests,"said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.
Gof Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire pg 252 US
It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.
It is important to note that this takes place before any Ron/Fleur and Harry/Fleur interaction. Let us begin to analyze this evidence;
"Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests, “said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
Here Dumbledore is giving a welcoming speech, extending hospitality, and being a gracious host.
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakably a derisive laugh.
A derisive laugh is a scornful contemptible laugh. This particular student is making sure that people know exactly what she thinks of Hogwarts and its hospitality from the start. We should also take a close look at the way that JKR writes it, was unmistakably a derisive laugh. JKR is making sure that everyone knows that this student is being scornful of Hogwarts and the headmaster, there is no mistaking it. Another point of interest is Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head. This girl is literally bundled from head to foot. Our first Hermione/Fleur interaction takes place before we receive any physical description of Fleur. A deliberate action by JKR in order to clearly establish that Hermione’s reaction to this girl is based on her actions and her actions alone. JKR left her bundled with a muffler clutched around her face so that we didn’t get a look at beauty and JKR did not confirm that Fleur was part veela or possessed any veela charms or traits. By her actions, and her actions alone, we get the following reaction from Hermione:
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.
At this point I would like you to note that Hermione’s reaction to Fleur in this moment is bristled.
It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech.
Here JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur is the same girl that laughed at Dumbledore’s speech. We cannot debate if it was another girl and that Hermione was acting toward Fleur based on a wrong assumption. JKR makes it clear. It was Fleur.
She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.
Now and not before now do finally get a description of what Fleur looks like. Well after Hermione’s reaction and dislike for Fleur are established. JKR has not even given us a description of Fleur’s hair prior to this point in Gof.
Here we have our foundation laid in the text and from this foundation we will build our case.
PART TWO - HERMIONE’S REACTIONS TO FLEUR.
Before proceeding, we pause for a minute to reaffirm that Hermione’s reactions to Fleur are based on Fleur’s attitude and actions and not on Fleur’s beauty, veela traits, or the attention that Fleur gets based on these traits. By examination of the text we have seen that JKR established the initial Hermione/Fleur interaction without so much as a physical description of Fleur’s hair and also before we see the attention that Fleur’s beauty gives her. It is also interesting to note that this takes place prior to the other actions and reactions between Hermione and Fleur.
We should also note that the fact that Fleur is part veela is never confirmed in Hermione’s presence. Harry first learns that Fleur’s grandmother was a veela in Ch 18 The Weighing of the Wands Pg 308 at the actual weighing of the wands (Hermione is not present here) and later confirms this to Ron in Ch 22 The Unexpected Task Pg 399, yet once again Hermione is not present. JKR makes sure to show us when she enters so that we can see that it is after Harry and Ron’s conversation.
Here are the Hermione/Fleur interactions of Gof:
1)CH 16 The Goblet of Fire Pg 251
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.
2)Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire Pg 252
“Of course she isn’t!” said Hermione tartly.
3)Ch 23 The Yule Ball Pg 404
“Ooooh there’s a tragedy,” Hermione snapped as Fleur went out into the entrance hall.
4)Ch 26 The Second Task Pg 506
Hermione looked simply furious,
5)Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 724
Fleur smiled at him(Ron); Hermione scowled.
1) Our initial Hermione/Fleur interaction, covered in detail in part one.
2) After Ron/Fleur interaction.
3) After Fleur criticizes Hogwarts food.
4) After Harry/Fleur & Ron/Fleur interaction.
5) After Ron/Fleur interaction.
Bristled, tartly, snapped, furious, and scowled. Hermione’s reactions to Fleur. Most of these actions seem to run along the lines of bristled. Tartly, snapped, and scowled which all denote a similar kind of anger and displeasure. However as we consider the reactions, one reaction is rather out of place when in connection with the others and that is furious. This reaction from Hermione is after the second task and it is the only time we see a heightened response from Hermione to Fleur. So since the Second Task is a singular event which provokes a unique response in regards to the other Hermione/Fleur reactions, we shall proceed to examine the Second Task and analyze it in depth.
PART THREE - HERMIONE AND KRUM BEFORE THE SECOND TASK
Before embarking on our analysis of the Second Task, I feel that it is important that we look a little at Hermione and Krum and their relationship. The Hermione/Krum relationship is important to our analysis of potential future relationships and is all too often overlooked or merely dismissed. By Hermione’s relationship with Krum, JKR gives us several clues to the development of Hermione’s feelings. One of the most important and interesting aspects of this relationship that is all too often overlooked is the simple fact that Krum asks Hermione out after the first Rita Skeeter Article comes out. The article that proclaims that Harry has found love at Hogwarts. Love in the form of Hermione Granger. A simple time line will probably demonstrate this better than I could explain it:
*Chapter 19 The Hungarian Horntail - The first Rita Skeeter article appears proclaiming Harry and Hermione to be a couple. Pg 315 US
*Chapter 20 The First Task - Krum is still coming into the Library to work up the courage to approach Hermione. Pg 339 US
*Chapter 23 The Yule Ball - We are first introduced to the fact that Hermione and Krum are dating. Pg 413 US
I call this to your attention now as it will figure in later.
We are first introduced to this couple at the Yule Ball, even though we had hints about it before the Yule Ball. At the Yule Ball Hermione is described as
Ch 23 The Yule Ball pg 416-417
Harry glanced up at Hermione to see how she felt about this new and more complicated method of dining---- surely it meant plenty of extra work for the house-elves?- but for once, Hermione didn’t seem to be thinking about S.P.E.W. She was deep in talk with Viktor Krum and hardly seemed to notice what she was eating.
Later Hermione says about Krum,
CH 24 Rita Skeeter’s Scoop Pg 444
“He’s really nice, you know,” she(Hermione) said. “He’s not at all like you’d think, coming from Durmstang. He likes it much better here, he told me.”
Now in Chapter 25 we are introduced to the riddle of the egg which contains this interesting little line,
we’ve taken what you’ll sorely miss
I think it’s safe to say that most of us are engaged enough in the Harry Potter series to state that this refers to the hostages that the Champions had to rescue:
Harry - Ron
Krum - Hermione
Cedric - Cho
Fleur - Gabrielle
without having to type the entire scene out.
Of course we will also include Krum’s statement at the Second Task,
Ch 27 Padfoot Returns pg 514
“And he did say he’d never felt the same way about anyone else,” Hermione went on.
So we see that from The Yule Ball which took place on December 25 to the Second Task which took place on February 24 a progression from Hermione being a date to a formal ball to becoming the one that Krum would sorely miss and has never had felt the same way about anyone else before. Our progression seems quite normal for a young couple dating and nothing really stands out in this part with one exception.
Ch 23 The Yule Ball pg 422
Hermione talking: “No, I wasn’t! If you really want to know, he - he said he’d been coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn’t been able to pluck up the courage!”
I now call this to your attention, but we shall analyze it in further detail later in this essay. But I would like you to note that we have two attempts by Krum to approach Hermione in the library after the First Rita Skeeter article(stating that Harry has found love with Hermione at Hogwarts) is printed.
Then comes the Second Task and for that we head to part four.
PART FOUR-ANALYSIS OF THE SECOND TASK
Now let us continue our chain of deduction and reasoning with an analysis of the second task.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 504-505
“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum. Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake, but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
Ch 27 Padfoot Returns pg 514
“And he did say he’d never felt the same way about anyone else,” Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming for her, “but how could Rita Skeeter have heard him?”
At this point for clarity I will state that the he that Hermione is referring to is Viktor Krum. We however are given our answer to how Rita overheard later in Gof.
Ch 37 The Beginning pg 727
“Oh not electronic bugs,” said Hermione. “No, you see.....Rita Skeeter”----- Hermione’s voice trembled with quiet triumph----- “is an unregistered Animagus. She can turn-----“
Hermione pulled a small sealed glass jar out of her bag.
“----into a beetle.”
Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 728
“Exactly,” said Hermione. “And Viktor pulled a beetle out of my hair after we’d had our conversation by the lake.”
Now why would I find all of this interesting. What we are looking at here are the pieces of a puzzle that are scattered throughout Gof. This is the classic form of a mystery. We all too often see the end result only after we have been given our conclusion, or when the author places the final piece of the puzzle in place, then and only then do we see the real picture. However by looking at that pieces of the puzzle and assembling them in order we can see the end result and create the outlines of the pieces that remain.
1)“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum.
Now if we combine it with this piece of our puzzle:
“Exactly,” said Hermione. “And Viktor pulled a beetle out of my hair after we’d had our conversation by the lake.”
Here we establish that Hermione and Krum’s conversation, the one in which he stated “he’d never felt the same way about anyone else” took place. Why should this be important? By looking at the next line in Gof;
2)Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake,
We find a red herring!! Harry is wrong Krum is not trying to draw Hermione’s attention back to the fact that he had just saved her from the lake. Krum is trying to draw Hermione’s attention back to their conversation. The very conversation in which Krum invited Hermione to visit him and admitted his feelings for Hermione. Their conversation in which Krum made that powerful statement.
3)but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
Yet despite Krum’s admission of his feelings where do we find Hermione’s attention focused, on Harry.
And we have a second red herring to be considered at the Second Task as well.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 507
Fleur was clapping very hard too, but Krum didn’t look happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen.
Most will at this point say that Krum was unhappy because of Harry’s being tied for the lead. Seems to be a little out of character for a professional athlete who would certainly understand the importance of having one more event to go. But more importantly let us remember our red herring that we discussed earlier, what Krum was trying to draw Hermione’s attention back to, his admission of feelings. Here Krum tries once again to talk to Hermione about what he had said and once again (stronger this time really) Hermione is too focused on Harry to listen to Krum.
Now, when we examine both of these scenes from the Second Task we see a rather stark and vivid contrast in comparison with this scene from Gof.
Ch 23 The Yule Ball pg 416-417
Harry glanced up at Hermione to see how she felt about this new and more complicated method of dining---- surely it meant plenty of extra work for the house-elves?- but for once, Hermione didn’t seem to be thinking about S.P.E.W. She was deep in talk with Viktor Krum and hardly seemed to notice what she was eating.
Simply stop for a minute and compare the three moments from our book. Krum is able to take her attention away from the house-elves, S.P.E.W., the extra work for the house-elves, but Krum is not able to take her attention away from Harry.
Now let us move on,
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn’t have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, “And you too-----you helped-----“
“Yeah,” said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, “yeah, a bit-----“
Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious,
Now, let us take a look at this part a little more in depth,
Here is the only time we get heightened response from Hermione after JKR establishes the initial dislike that we examined in detail in part one of this essay. The rest of the Hermione/Fleur interactions and responses are quite similar, bristled, tartly, snapped, scowled. Here and only here do we get a truly unique response.
Just to briefly recap the reactions from Hermione to Fleur, that I have submitted, they are,
1)CH 16 The Goblet of Fire Pg 251
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.
Fleur/Hogwarts/Dumbledore- Hermione bristled
2)Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire Pg 252
“Of course she isn’t!” said Hermione tartly.
Ron/Fleur- Hermione tartly
3)Ch 23 The Yule Ball Pg 404
“Ooooh there’s a tragedy,” Hermione snapped as Fleur went out into the entrance hall.
Fleur/Hogwarts food- Hermione snapped
4)Ch 26 The Second Task Pg 506
Hermione looked simply furious,
Harry/Fleur, Ron/Fleur - Hermione furious
5)Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 724
Fleur smiled at him(Ron); Hermione scowled.
Ron/Fleur- Hermione scowled
Hopefully we have been able to see that the only time we get a heightened emotional response from Hermione to Fleur is when Harry is involved. Remove Harry and we see a rather dramatic decrease in Hermione’s reaction, it goes from furious to scowled.
Now some will counter that Hermione’s reaction comes after the Ron/Fleur interaction so let’s take a look at this section of the book and its grammar in a little more detail.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn’t have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, “And you too-----you helped-----“
“Yeah,” said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, “yeah, a bit-----“
Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious,
I would like to begin by drawing one’s attention to the grammar.
The dash-often typed as two hyphens side by side with no space between the dash and the words on either side of it-is used to connect groups of words to other groups.
The comma tells the reader to pause, just as the blinking yellow light tells a driver to slow down and proceed with caution
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or a single action: conclusion
One will notice that despite its appearance this is actually one long sequence of events. The only period comes right before Hermione’s reaction. The rest of the punctuation is commas and dashes which are used to combine words and ideas. So the moment actually reads Harry/Fleur/Ron/Fleur Period (conclusion) Hermione’s reaction.
We have all read enough of JKR’s interviews to be familiar with the fact that she writes and rewrites her books almost constantly. And when we consider the fact that JKR is an ex-teacher we can see that this grammar and structure are quite deliberate. As a side experiment I placed periods in several places in this part of Gof and ran them through the grammar correction program on my computer and found out that one could have placed a period after helped and bit in our series and would have created no grammatical error.
Here we pause to recap the events and clues that lead up to and surround the Second Task. Immediately after the Second Task we have no less than three red herrings to be considered. The two times Krum tries to draw Hermione’s attention back to himself and Harry’s wrong impressions of the reasons why, and the grammar that surrounds the Harry/Fleur/Ron/Fleur interaction.
PART FIVE - DEVELOPMENT OF HERMIONE’S FEELINGS
At this point I had begun to wonder if I should have renamed this part the development of Hermione’s sub-conscience feelings for Harry. For that is what these feelings that we are about to see are. Hermione is beginning to develop feelings for Harry and to see him as more than a friend but Hermione herself is unaware that this is subtly taking place right in front of her. We have to rely on Viktor Krum for our clues and answers.
At the Second Task we begin to see Hermione developing feelings for Harry. These feelings run deeper than friendship and we are not the only ones who begin to take notice of Hermione’s sub conscience feelings developing. Viktor Krum provides us with several clues to the development of Hermione’s feelings.
Now I can almost hear everyone who has been debating for a while groan with pain as we are about to look at Krum’s confrontation of Harry (yes we will get there soon enough) but before we do that let us take a look at a couple of other instances where Krum was jealous of Harry.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 504-505
“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum. Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake, but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
Ch 27 Padfoot Returns pg 514
“And he did say he’d never felt the same way about anyone else,” Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming for her, “but how could Rita Skeeter have heard him?”
At this point for clarity I will state that the he that Hermione is referring to is Viktor Krum. We however are given our answer to how Rita overheard later in Gof.
Ch 37 The Beginning pg 727
“Oh not electronic bugs,” said Hermione. “No, you see.....Rita Skeeter”----- Hermione’s voice trembled with quiet triumph----- “is an unregistered Animagus. She can turn-----“
Hermione pulled a small sealed glass jar out of her bag.
“----into a beetle.”
Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 728
“Exactly,” said Hermione. “And Viktor pulled a beetle out of my hair after we’d had our conversation by the lake.”
Now those who have read Part Three - Analysis of the Second Task will already be familiar with the points that I have already brought up about Rita Skeeter being the beetle and overhearing the Hermione/Krum conversation. We can see that this conversation took place before Krum told Hermione about the water beetle in her hair. But simply look at this rather interesting development: Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake,
As we look at this part, a couple of things come to mind.
1) JKR is confirming that despite Krum’s admission of feelings Hermione’s attention is focused solely on Harry. Otherwise, Krum would have had no need to draw attention back to himself.
2) We see the establishment of a red herring. Harry’s impression is wrong. Krum is not trying to remind Hermione that he had just saved her from the lake. He is trying to remind her of what he had told her.
but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
Yet despite Krum’s efforts Hermione’s attention is still focused on Harry. We do have a rather interesting contrast in this section from Gof however,
Ch 23 The Yule Ball pg 416-417
Harry glanced up at Hermione to see how she felt about this new and more complicated method of dining---- surely it meant plenty of extra work for the house-elves?- but for once, Hermione didn’t seem to be thinking about S.P.E.W. She was deep in talk with Viktor Krum and hardly seemed to notice what she was eating.
Simply stop for a minute and compare the two. Krum is able to take her attention away from the house-elves, S.P.E.W., the extra work for the house-elves, but Krum is not able to take her attention away from Harry.
Before we move onto the most well known indicator of Krum’s jealousy we should take a look at another instance,
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 507
Fleur was clapping very hard too, but Krum didn’t look happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen.
Most will at this point say that Krum was unhappy because of Harry’s being tied for the lead. Seems a little out of character for a professional athlete who still has one more event to go. But more importantly remember our red herring that we discussed earlier, what Krum was trying to draw Hermione’s attention back to, his admission of feelings. Here Krum tries once again to talk to Hermione about what he had said and once again (stronger this time really) Hermione is too focused on Harry to listen to Krum. Once again I would like to point out the contrast between this and the Yule Ball as I stated above.
Ch 28 The Madness of Mr. Couch Pg 552-553
“I vant to know,” he said glowering, “vot there is between you and Hermy-own-ninny.”
Harry, who from Krum’s secretive manner had been expected something much more serious than this, stared up at Krum in amazement.
“Nothing,” he said. But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was elaborated. “We’re just friends. She’s not my girlfriend and she never has been. It’s just that Skeeter woman making things up.”
“Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often,” said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry.
“Yeah,” said Harry, “because we’re friends.”
He couldn’t quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous International Quiddich player. It was as though the eighteen-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal-a real rival----
“You haff never......you haff not.....”
“No,” said Harry very firmly.
Krum looked slightly happier.
Let me address the first rebuttal that will come to this. Harry states that they are just friends and that nothing is going on. Please keep in mind that we are talking about Hermione’s feelings and their development for Harry.
Let us now analyze this scene,
“I vant to know,” he said glowering, “vot there is between you and Hermy-own-ninny.”
Harry, who from Krum’s secretive manner had been expected something much more serious than this, stared up at Krum in amazement.
“Nothing,” he said. But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was elaborated.
I think its safe to say that Krum is really jealous. And that might be a bit of an understatement. We know that Harry faces danger and that Harry is truly brave. Krum must be very mad to make Harry take notice of how tall he is.
“We’re just friends. She’s not my girlfriend and she never has been. It’s just that Skeeter woman making things up.”
Remember the red herring that we discussed at the Second Task and the following Hermione/Krum interaction. Remember that these took place before Rita’s article so Harry’s conclusion is wrong. Yet another red herring has found its way into our theory and needs to be considered First off the events that we have dealt with surrounding the Second Task, Krum trying to draw Hermione’s attention back to their conversation and Hermione’s cheering Harry while Krum looks on unhappily, take place before the second Rita Skeeter article comes out. Now I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that the first article that says the Harry and Hermione are seeing each other comes out in Chapter 19 The Hungarian Horntail, the Yule Ball takes place in Chapter 23. We have already looked at the Hermione/Krum relationship from the Yule Ball on, so how could we come to the conclusion that Krum is basing anything on these articles. Even if we say the Krum read them he didn’t believe the first one and since he has come to know Hermione better I truly doubt the he believes the second one. Krum is basing his conclusion on other things as we see here next.
“Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often,” said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry.
But the Rita answer is not enough to satisfy Krum. Further proof that Krum is not basing his suspicion based on either of Rita’s articles but on what he has seen between Harry and Hermione. Had this been the primary factor we would have seen Krum become less jealous right here. But Krum is still suspicious. I would also like to point out that once again we are talking about Hermione’s feelings for Harry. Krum does not say to Harry that Harry talks about Hermione often or too much to suit him in which case Harry’s denial would hold considerably more weight.
He couldn’t quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous International Quiddich player. It was as though the eighteen-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal-a real rival----
Interesting, Harry thinks that Krum sees him as a real rival, but a rival at what? Everyone at this point now says without a doubt the answer is Quiddich. But Krum has never seen Harry play Quiddich so how could it be Quiddich? Nor is the topic of conversation Quiddich so how can we justify a leap in the conversation like this. We can’t. Krum sees Harry as a rival for Hermione’s affection. Harry, of course, stops just short of making this connection.
“You haff never......you haff not.....”
“No,” said Harry very firmly.
Krum looked slightly happier.
Krum only looked slightly happier. I don’t think Krum is 100% satisfied at this point. Why would Krum not be 100% satisfied at this point. Because Krum is not basing his jealousy on the Rita articles.
Let us move on now.
Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 725
Krum had come to say good-bye to Hermione.
“Could I have a vord?” he asked her.
“Oh....yes....all right,” said Hermione, looking slightly flustered, and following Krum through the crowd and out of sight.
“You’d better hurry up!” Ron called loudly after her. “The carriages’ll be here in a minute!”
He let Harry keep a watch for the carriages, however, and spent the next few minutes craning his neck over the crowd to try and see what Krum and Hermione might be up to. They returned quite soon. Ron stared at Hermione, but her face was quite impassive.
So what took place during this conversation is open largely to speculation. This is the last piece of the puzzle that JKR has kept for herself until she is ready to reveal it to us. As with so many of her other puzzles JKR shows us the conversation without giving us the details, but we know the conversation took place. We are not speculating that they spoke. Here we have assembled enough of the puzzle to be able to see the outline of the missing piece and with that information in hand we can deduce three possible conversations,
1) Hermione and Krum spoke about Ron
2) Hermione and Krum spoke about her having feelings for someone else but didn’t use a name and spoke in rather general terms
3) Hermione and Krum spoke about Harry
There is a fourth possible conversation to take place Hermione and Krum spoke about Hermione’s coming to see Krum over the summer and that they are still dating. But Hermione’s references to Krum as a pen pal in OotP kind of put some kinks in this conversation as do the events that follow this. While we can’t rule it out completely there is little to support it at this point. So let us now consider the other three possibilities,
1)Hermione and Krum spoke about Ron: I’m not sure why anyone would think that Hermione and Krum are talking about Ron. There is no indication anywhere that Krum has been jealous of Ron or even knows that much about Ron. Krum never confronts Ron about his actions at the Yule Ball which would indicate that Hermione has never told him about the events that took place that night. I can see that Ron is inserted into the text so that one could be tempted to read him into this situation. But given our analysis I think that this conversation is the least possible.
2)Hermione and Krum spoke about her having feelings for someone else but didn’t use a name and spoke in rather general terms: Krum could have confronted Hermione about her feelings for another person and simply left the name out. Something along the lines of- Krum: Hermy-own-ninny you are in love (or like) someone else. Hermione: Who? Krum: A boy here at Hogwarts. And it would go on. I don’t think that Krum would be able to make much of a case for the change in his feelings, after his admission at the Lake in the Second Task, if he spoke only in general terms. One would also think that Hermione would not take this well at all and not remain in contact with him after the conversation. To speak in general terms would appear that Krum was simply through with Hermione after this year and was moving on. Also they returned very shortly and this type of conversation, in which Krum would have had to convince Hermione that she was in love with someone else, would take a bit of time.
3)Hermione and Krum spoke about Harry: Krum talks about what he has observed between Hermione and Harry. Remember the Second Task and how Krum tried twice to draw Hermione’s attention back to himself. He failed. We also have the confrontation between Harry and Krum in which we are given another clue, that Hermione talks about Harry often. Given the progression through Gof of Krum/Hermione/Harry interaction this is the most likely conclusion. Krum brings Hermione’s feelings to the surface and she confronts feelings that she has never felt before but we have witnessed forming, quite without her realizing it. But Krum saw it.
Which leads us to this,
Ch 37 The Beginning pg 734
“Bye, Harry!” said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek.
Already we hear the cries of red herring. However if we go back to the Second Task and follow our chain of events we see that this is the seal of Hermione’s caring for Harry. Having feelings for Harry that she has never had before, or realized before, she does something that she has never done before.
PART SIX - ANALYSIS OF THE RED HERRINGS IN GOF.
First of all I wish to say thanks to those of you who had read this far with an open mind. Parts 3 and 4 were rather massive and I appreciate those who read them both openly and honestly. Now we shall give careful consideration to some of the red herrings that I have pointed out in Gof and why they are significant.
We have identified four red herrings so far in our little study.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 504-505
“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum. Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake, but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 507
Fleur was clapping very hard too, but Krum didn’t look happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn’t have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, “And you too-----you helped-----“
“Yeah,” said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, “yeah, a bit-----“
Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious,
Ch 28 The Madness of Mr. Couch Pg 552-553
“I vant to know,” he said glowering, “vot there is between you and Hermy-own-ninny.”
Harry, who from Krum’s secretive manner had been expected something much more serious than this, stared up at Krum in amazement.
“Nothing,” he said. But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was elaborated. “We’re just friends. She’s not my girlfriend and she never has been. It’s just that Skeeter woman making things up.”
“Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often,” said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry.
“Yeah,” said Harry, “because we’re friends.”
He couldn’t quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous International Quiddich player. It was as though the eighteen-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal-a real rival----
I only count four but we could break the last one down into two. But lets stick with four for now. I should say four from Gof there is one more I’d like to add from OotP;
Ch 18 Dumbledore’s Army Pg 391
“Harry’s leader,” said Cho at once, looking at Hermione as though she were mad, and Harry’s stomach did yet another back flip.
Wrong again there Harry. Cho was jealous of Hermione.
Now I added the OotP red herring to show that the continuity of the red herrings is still there. Why? Because JKR wants to keep us guessing is the most likely answer. Therefore we may also say that it is the most correct answer. But there is another reason to these red herrings. They establish the fact that Harry himself has not made the connection. Harry has yet to see that Hermione does have feelings for him. The closest he came to putting the pieces of the puzzle together himself, was when he was talking to Krum and began to see himself as a rival, only to be interrupted. So there is a twofold purpose to these red herrings; 1) to throw us off the track 2) to show us that Harry hasn’t realized himself what Hermione feels about him.
To simplify these red herrings so that we may see the truth has been the goal of this essay so an attempt to break them down follows.
The Red Herring at the Second Task
The difficulty with this particular red herring is that if requires one to work in reverse. The logic does not go A>>B>>.C rather C>>B>>A, however it still runs in a logical line and leads us to our conclusion. As we tend to think A>>B>>C this is a classic red herring for many of us do not start with the last clue and work our way backwards in order to solve our puzzle. So for this analysis let us start with our last clue in order to see the solution to our puzzle.
Ch 37 The Beginning Pg 728
“Exactly,” said Hermione. “And Viktor pulled a beetle out of my hair after we’d had our conversation by the lake.”
I have made a slight adjustment to this scene to show you exactly what I mean. I have bolded, emphasized, and underlined the word after. So with the help of a relatively crude diagram we can hope to show you the truth
Hermione and Krum’s conversation took place before the beetle was removed from Hermione’s hair.
With our next clue we establish what the conversation was about;
Ch 27 Padfoot Returns pg 514
“And he did say he’d never felt the same way about anyone else,” Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming for her, “but how could Rita Skeeter have heard him?”
With this piece of evidence we can place another piece of our puzzle in place, what the conversation was about. So we return to our little recap;
Hermione and Krum’s conversation about Krum having feelings for her that he had never felt for anyone else and inviting Hermione to visit him took place before the beetle was removed from Hermione’s hair.
Which now leads us to our final piece of our puzzle.
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 504-505
“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum. Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake, but Hermione brushed away the beetle impatiently and said, “You’re well outside the time limit, though, Harry......Did it take you ages to find us?”
We can now establish when this conversation took place. Between their coming out of the lake and this moment in the book;
Hermione and Krum’s conversation about Krum having feelings for her that he had never felt for anyone else and inviting Hermione to visit him took place before the beetle was removed from Hermione’s hair. This conversation took place before this part of the book;
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 504-505
“You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny,” said Krum.
Now why is this of interest to us. All of the other events of the Second Task take place after this conversation. Then we are mislead by Harry and JKR here:
Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued from the lake,
so that we don’t make the connection. That despite Krum’s admission Hermione is focused on Harry and Harry alone. By failing to make this connection we do not see all the other pieces of evidence that surround the Second Task. Take a brief minute and reflect. If the story had run along these lines;
Harry walks up to Hermione and Krum.
Krum has just finished telling Hermione how he feels and asks her to visit him.
Harry has heard it, so now we have heard it.
Hermione turns away from Krum and begins to cheer and focus on Harry.
What conclusion would we come away with?
This did happen and precisely in this manner. However JKR did not write it openly. We had to piece this puzzle together.
If you pause to look another piece of evidence at the Second Task;
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn’t have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, “And you too-----you helped-----“
“Yeah,” said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, “yeah, a bit-----“
Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious,
We have already seen that Hermione is focused on Harry in this part of the book and we have noted the grammar, and then look a little further down the page at this;
Ch 26 The Second Task pg 507
Fleur was clapping very hard too, but Krum didn’t look happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen.
you will see it established that Krum is attempting to talk to Hermione again but she seems to be in a bit of a cheering contest with Fleur. Once again too centered on Harry to listen to Krum.
Now to look at our other little red herring.
Ch 28 The Madness of Mr. Couch Pg 552-553
“I vant to know,” he said glowering, “vot there is between you and Hermy-own-ninny.”
Harry, who from Krum’s secretive manner had been expected something much more serious than this, stared up at Krum in amazement.
“Nothing,” he said. But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was elaborated. “We’re just friends. She’s not my girlfriend and she never has been. It’s just that Skeeter woman making things up.”
“Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often,” said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry.
“Yeah,” said Harry, “because we’re friends.”
He couldn’t quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous International Quiddich player. It was as though the eighteen-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal-a real rival-
By now I hope that I have managed to show you the wrong conclusion that Harry came to in the Second Task. Here we find another wrong conclusion by Harry at this part of the story,
“We’re just friends. She’s not my girlfriend and she never has been. It’s just that Skeeter woman making things up.”
however with a little analysis we can see through this red herring. This one will be simpler as we can work in the fashion better suited to our reasoning A>>B>>C.
Why Harry’s conclusion is wrong.
I am not going to go into the events surrounding the Second Task again. I have dealt with these events in complete detail in the other parts of this essay. Rather we can resort to a simple time line that will help to shed the light upon this red herring;
*Chapter 19 The Hungarian Horntail - The first Rita Skeeter article appears proclaiming Harry and Hermione to be a couple. Pg 315 US
*Chapter 20 The First Task - Krum is still coming into the Library to work up the courage to approach Hermione. Pg 339 US
*Chapter 23 The Yule Ball - We are first introduced to the fact that Hermione and Krum are dating. Pg 413 US
*Chapter 24 Rita Skeeter’s Scoop - Hermione points out that Krum is really nice once you get to know him. Pg 444 US
*Chapter 26 The Second Task - Krum’s admission of feelings for Hermione. Pg 504 US
*Chapter 27 Padfoot Returns - The second Rita Skeeter article appears proclaiming Hermione to be a scarlet woman toying with both Harry and Krum. Pg 512
*Chapter 28 The Madness of Mr. Couch - Krum confronts Harry about Hermione. Points out that Hermione talks about Harry often. Pg 552
*Chapter 37 The Beginning - The Krum/Hermione conversation takes place. Krum initiates the conversation. Hermione returns shortly with an unreadable look upon her face. Pg 725 US
*Chapter 37 The Beginning - Hermione kisses Harry. Pg 734 US
A brief examination of this time line helps us to see the Red Herring established in Chapter 28 when Krum confronts Harry. We can easily see that after the first article has come out Krum has not yet asked Hermione to go to the Yule Ball with him. So Krum is not basing his decision to ask Hermione out based on the article. If he was then there would be no need for the confrontation that takes place between Harry and Krum because Krum would have had to eliminate that possibility before he asked Hermione out. This leads us to 2 conclusions, 1) Krum is not reading Rita’s articles 2) Krum is not basing his decisions on Rita’s articles. Given these possibilities how can one say that Krum is basing his suspicion on Rita’s articles? One can’t. Krum is not basing his decision to ask a girl out that he hardly knows on the article, therefore Krum is not basing his suspicions of a girl that he now knows better based on an article. To claim that Krum is basing one decision separate from the articles and the second one based on the articles is far fetched to say the least.
By looking at the Hermione/Krum relationship separate from the Rita articles we see a rather interesting fact indeed. Hermione and Krum’s relationship progresses quite normally and naturally from the Yule Ball to the Second Task. After the Second Task and before the Third Task we get a clue that things between Hermione and Krum have hit a bit of a snag. By examination of the text we have seen what the snag was. We have also seen that Krum is basing his suspicion independent of Rita’s articles. Therefore Harry’s statement that it is merely Rita making things up is wrong. Therefore it is a red herring.
CONCLUSION
First I would like to thank all who helped out with this theory Turambar, Perdy, BabyMars, FlyingPhoenix, AvadaKadava, Sirius 83, Mad Eye Mike, Grace Granger, Earendil, Evaluna, Ecthelion, and the members of the Harmony. Thank you for your hard work, criticism, suggestions, support and most of all time. Thanks again.
JKR is a excellent writer who loves a good mystery and a terrific plot twist. She writes the Harry Potter series in the 3rd person limited. This style of narration (along with the first person narrative) is often favored by mystery and suspense writers as it allows them to focus their audience on the clues but give them misleading conclusions and steers their captive readers away from the final conclusion. By doing this the writer misleads without conning the reader, as all to often happens when a mystery, or suspense, is written from the omniscient narrative. In our case we have seen how JKR has achieved this in Gof, showing us Hermione having feelings for Harry while effectively steering us away from realizing this.
My purpose in this essay was to show you the pieces of the puzzle that JKR has scattered throughout Goblet of Fire and to assemble these pieces to the best of my ability in order to show you the completed picture. I am aware that one piece of the puzzle remains safely in the hands of JKR, the conversation with Krum, but hopefully I have assembled enough pieces of the puzzle around the conversation to at least present you with a general outline of what that pieces looks like.
107. Why does Ginny need Harry? by Sone
I was just thinking with all the Harry and Ginny talk lately, I think I should lay down my own twisted sense of....everything. I was wondering why does Ginny need Harry? What is it about Harry that Ginny wants? What is it in Harry that she cannot find in Michael Corner? What is it that Harry has that can satisfy Ginny's bright....independent spirit? It was almost like she was looking for something in Corner to replace Harry with and could not find it. I haven't said this before but I nearly keeled over with laughter when Ron asked Hermione who was Michael Corner and Hermione answered with "the dark one". I found it extremely funny and then extremely interesting for some reason. I guess it was the fact that Corner has dark features. Harry who also has dark features is/was the person Ginny had a crush on. Same with Hermione's love interest (Viktor) and Cho's former (Harry) and newest love interest (Michael Corner). All dark features. Anybody seeing a pattern? It also makes me very interested that Corner has now gone out with the two girls that cannot get Harry. It is almost like he is picking up after him. Ginny cannot find in Corner what she apparently can find in Harry and ditches him. Corner then goes to Cho who is very frustrated at losing the Quidditch Final. But as we find out near the end of the book, Cho still blushes when she sees Harry on the Hogwarts Express. There is no sign of indifference or hate. What is it about Corner that Ginny and Cho were/are trying to replace or make up for that Harry has not been able or unwilling to give them? It occured to me if that snitch indeed represented Harry and Cho and Ginny were both trying to get it then I can see why Ginny won.
What did Ginny tell Harry after the game where Ron missed like fourteen straight saves? She prefers goal scoring (playing chaser) to seeking. Cho is a seeker. She tries to reach Harry but she can't. Not even when he is right under her nose. For that Cho is very miserable and very frustrated. Makes you wonder about what Hermione said about Cho being afraid of getting kicked off the Quidditch team because she has been playing so badly doesn't it? Her behavior at the tea shop was not an act of sensiblity but an act of desperation. The more she tried to reach, the further he got away. However Ginny does not want to seek out Harry, she wants to chase. To pursue sexually or romantically, to go after with the intent to catch. Yeah I said it. Cho thought she caught Harry. She thought she caught the snitch. But she did not and she was very surprised to find out she just managed to get close to it. She poured out her feelings out to Harry, she kissed him (in my opinion very passionately but not too gritty) and she cried into his shoulder. She assumed that meant she had caught Harry for good. She was wrong. Ginny however grabs it right from under her nose because Ginny's more experienced with trying to catch Harry period. But with that said, Ginny prefers to chase. She is no longer seeking Harry out but chasing others. It would give some credence to Ginny choosing Dean Thomas. She stopped seeking when she believed that it was Cho who had Harry. Why does Ginny think it is Cho? The Yule Ball. Remember the part where Harry says he asks Cho to the Yule Ball and she turns him down and Ginny suddenly stops smiling? This told Ginny that it is Cho that has his interest.
Now when Ginny gets this snitch, Mr. Corner does not like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw. The poor sap knew they were playing beforehand. Does anybody wonder what was going on between the two before the match? Did Ginny look for his congratulations only to be upset by his sulky attitude that Gryffindor won? In any case, it does not seem like Ginny cares all that much. She is not pulling any punches and leaves Corner just like that. So Corner goes after Cho who is vulnerable and alone and thus can certainly use a shoulder to cry on. Not to mention she is Harry Potter's ex-girlfriend. But Cho is still looking in Harry's direction. Seeking him out while trying (and will probably fail) to replace whatever Harry was able or unable to give her with Michael Corner. While I believe Ginny was joking about Dean Thomas, her independent nature would suggest that Ron cannot have anything to do with putting Harry and Ginny together. Not going to happen just because Ron said so. Quite the contrary, he may blow the whole thing if he tries to interfere. Love is not a chess game and maybe that is why Ron is the only one who has not yet established a significant other. Speaking of Ron, what about him? Well our dear Ron is playing a very dangerous game. He thought Cho would be able to draw Harry away from Hermione. That is why in my opinion the real reason why he was so happy that Harry kissed Cho. Hermione saw this and gave him a very disgusted look. However, Cho failed. So Ron decides to take matters into his own hands using his sister. Ginny does not see this but I can tell you already she is not interested in Ron's interference.
Ginny is the better and more stable choice than Cho but there is one problem. That snitch is not something Cho can catch right now and Ginny is chasing other boys. Like Hermione said, Cho has been playing so terribly. That snitch to me represents not Harry'd heart but how difficult Harry is to catch (emotionally) and the fact he never really belongs to the person just because they look to catch him. Anybody who seeks him can possibly have him but at best just for a little while. In fact, when Ginny does catch the snitch from under Cho's nose, Harry is not even there. Elusive isn't he? Like Lucius Malfoy said, Harry has a "gift" for escaping. You may have him one day, but Harry is not something you can just catch because you want him. He has to give something back to you. Cho would know. Harry has already caught both girls (Ginny and Cho) interest without really knowing how he did. The same with Myrtle, Parvati, Hermione (my opinion only) and hell maybe even Luna Lovegood (they are in fact people arguing that she likes Harry more than Ron). Ron may start asking Harry "what do they see in you anyway?.....yeah, but apart from that.....I mean, you're a grouchy git aren't you Harry?" They are after him but Harry needs to give them back something in order for it to work. What Cho and Ginny really want (or wanted or really need or needed actually) from Harry is his heart and that they cannot have. He has given it to someone else. In his dreams, it comes in the form of his firebolt, not a snitch and it is something Hermione has. Hermione however does not know she has it because Harry does not realize he has already given it to her. But Hermione does not like flying so how can Harry give her something (the firebolt) Hermione would not want? When they both rode the hippogriff (that nice greek symbol of love), it was clear that Hermione did not like flying on the hippogriff at first and was afraid (just like Harry was when he first rode Buckbeak), so she put her arms around Harry's waist as tightly as she could for his support which he gives because she is no longer nervous or scared when they are breaking Sirius out of Hogwarts. When Hermione was scared as hell of entering the shrieking shack, when she was scared of Grawp and when she thought the floor was going to move along with those doors in DoM; she grabbed Harry's arm. Harry twice described Hermione's grip as so tight he was actually going numb in the arm she was holding. It would seem that as long as Harry is there to protect her, she'll allow herself to be scared or otherwise do things that would usually scare the **** out of her. She wants Harry for alot of things but especially for his bravery when things get bad. She trusts him to be there, to be brave for her and he always is, just as she is for him.
Ginny and Cho want this but they are having difficulties getting past his behavior and general attitude. It just seems too problematic. With Cho, one day she and Harry are kissing, the next he is willing to break off their date so he can see Hermione for reasons though important yet undisclosed to Cho. That starts the beginning of the end for them. With Ginny, one day Harry's spirits lift after talking to Ginny about breaking into Sirius's office, the next day he wants nothing to do with her even when she wants to help. Ginny will not put up with that just for a chance to go with Harry. It would drive a girl mad and to be honest, I think it drove Cho slighty mad for a while. Poor girl had to be more frustrated and miserable than ever after their second fight and then the Quidditch Final and Harry not being there to comfort her either. If she did not cry at that point then she would not be human. However, Hermione is the most successful in dealing with this new attitude problem of Harry's. But she does more than just know and understand him better than Ginny and Cho. As much as Ginny and Cho have "advanced" on Harry, they still do not know him like Hermione does. Hermione is not as quick to lose her temper with him and has used more than one tactic to calm him down. She can get past his behavior and to the part of him that will listen better than anybody. Ironically it seems Harry is the only one that is actually safe from Hermione's fury even when it seems he does his utmost to aggravate it. She is as sweet as she is ever going to be when Harry is around. The challenge Ginny faced was not really Cho, it was Hermione and she like Cho has already lost. With Ron's affections, Cho's affections, Viktor's affections and even Corner and Marietta...well let's just say that is where things really get...."Harry". He is at the center of all of it.
Just another little thing I like to add (again). It has not occured to me until just now (I know, I know) Hermione has been keeping more tabs on Cho Chang than Harry has. I bet Harry knows less about Cho than Hermione does and not just because she is a girl. That is how Hermione also shows her jealousy.
108. Strength and independence or how is right and who is easy by Turambar
I want to look at an aspect of JKR's writing in relation to Hermione and Ginny.
I think she's trying to show the difference between a deeper level of strength and independence versus a more shallow level. And also the meaning of the phrase actions speak louder than words.
Ginny shows a bit of spirit at times towards Harry in OOTP:
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"They do, do they?" said Harry, glaring ar Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
"Well, you have!" she said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily."
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And:
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"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding ever since we got back - "
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily."
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And:
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"We recognised Harry's voice. "What are you yelling about?"
"Never you mind," said Harry roughly.
Ginny raised her eyebrows.
"There's no need to take that tone with me," she said cooly. "I was only wondering whether I could help."
"Well, you can't," said Harry shortly."
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And:
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"You're too -" Harry began, but Ginny said fiercely, "I'm three years older than you were when you fought You-Know-Who over the Philosopher's Stone and it's because of me that Malfoy's stuck back in Umbridge's office with giant flying bogies attacking him -"
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Now that behaviour is generally characterised as "standing up" to someone and showing strength. And it is to some extent. However there's another, more meaningful kind of strength and independence of thought. And Ginny, at this stage, falls down in that area.
In this Ginny reminds me of Molly. Molly is formidable on one level but compliant, conventional and dependent on another. Ginny shows spunk and attitude at times, but is ready to follow orders or rely on older, more dominant characters when she should be more questioning and prepared to use her own brain.
Also note the (very normal) self-centredness in the above quotes. This all reflects Ginny's age, level of maturity, level of friendship towards Harry and the fact that she's grown up with a bunch of older brothers. But it also lessens her suitability for Harry.
1) The Christmas scene:
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"They do, do they?" said Harry, glaring ar Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
"Well, you have!" she said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily."....
"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding ever since we got back - "
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily."
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Ginny responds to Harry's mood with a bit of attitude and defends her and her family's dealings with Harry over the period where he's been going through hell. But what would have been a more courageous way of dealing with Harry at this time?
Do you:
- Leave him to stew upstairs, discuss the problem downstairs, and then defend your inaction when someone else comes along and actually gets him out of the room?
Or:
- Don't leave him to stew upstairs, go and hammer on his door and try and get him to come out. If he won't come out and gets angry, well you just face that anger and say your piece through the locked door. Afterall, he's a captive audience isn't he? He can't go anywhere except out the door, you're outside of.
So which action requires the greater strength of character, the greater initiative, the greater personal commitment to Harry (since he's the one who needs help at this stage, Arthur being out of danger)?
2) The chocolate scene:
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"I wish I could talk to Sirius," he muttered. "But I know I can't."
"Well," said Ginny slowly..."if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it."
"Come on," said Harry dully. "With Umbridge policing the fires and reading our mail?"
"The thing with growing up with Fred and George," said Ginny thoughtfully, " is that you sort of start thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve."....
"Ginny's had a word with us about you," said Fred..."She says you need to talk to Sirius?"
"What?" said Hermione sharply...
"Yeah..." said Harry, trying to sound casual, "yeah, I thought I'd like -"
"Don't be so ridiculous," said Hermione..."With Umbridge groping around in the fires and frisking all the owls?"
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For a start, note how Harry and Hermione's thoughts re the fires/mail are EXACTLY the same. Only the language is different. Secondly Harry KNOWS he is wrong to do it, knows Hermione won't like it and is concerned about her opinion.
Thirdly notice how Ginny relates what Harry wants to do to Fred and George's pranks when in fact the situation surrounding Harry is of course far more serious. Ginny brings it down almost to the level of a dare: "if you've got enough nerve". It's rather like the front seat passenger next to the driver who's itching to speed, egging him on. It's a rather strange attitude considering she's previously been in serious strife (with Tom Riddle) herself.
I'm not saying that Ginny is still interested in Harry but what is the easiest thing to do if you ARE interested in someone? Go along with what they want, their views, adapt yourself to suit them. It's unclear whether Ginny even considered the matter from the point of view of: is what Harry wants what Harry needs? But if she had, the harder option would have been to at least raise questions about whether it was a good idea or not. The harder option still would have been to firmly argue against it - as Hermione does. Ginny not only does not question, does not even play Devil's Advocate, or even just keep quiet. Instead she focuses on a way he can achieve his goal - though she can't think of any plan herself - and even challenges Harry to go in that direction.
3) The debate over Sirius:
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"He was running again , pushing students out of the way, oblivious to their angry protest. He sprinted back down two floors and was at top of the marble staircase when he saw them hurrying toward them. "Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened "What happened?Are you all right? Are you ill?"
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Hermione's first response is intense concern.
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"Voldemort's got Sirius."
"What?"
"How d'you- ?"
"Saw it. Just now. When I fell asleep in the exam."
"But - but where? How?" said Hermione, whose face was white....
"Harry," said Hermione in a rather frightened voice. "er...how...how did Voldemort get into the MoM without anybody realising he was there?"
"How do I know?" bellowed Harry. "The question is how we're going to get in there!"
"But...Harry, think about this," said Hermione, taking a step towards him, "it'ts five o'clock in this afternoon...the MoM must be full of workers...how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry...they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world... you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?"
" I dunno, Voldemort used an Invisibility Cloak or something!" Harry shouted. "Anyway, the DoM has always completely empty whenever I've been -"
"You've never been there, Harry," said Hermione quietly "You've dreamed about the place, thats all."
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In contrast to Ginny's attitude, Hermione very quickly applies her intelligence and ability to reason, while still showing concern and tactfulness. She asks questions and tries to get Harry to think laterally.
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"They're not normal dreams" Harry shouted in her face, standing up and taking a step closer to her in turn. He wanted to shake her. "How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?"
"He's got a point," said Ron quietly, looking at Hermione.
"But this is just - just so unlikely!" said Hermione desperatly. "Harry, how on earth could Voldemort have got hold of Sirius when he`s been in Grimmauld Place all the time?"
"Sirius might've cracked and just wanted some fresh air," said Ron, sounding worried. "He's been desperate to get out of that house for ages -"
"But why." Hermione persisted, "why on earth would Voldemort want use Sirius to get the weapon, or whatever the thing is?"
"I dunno, there could be loads of reasons!" Harry yelled at her. "Maybe Sirius is just someone Voldemort doesn't care about seeind hurt -"
"You know what, I've just thought of something," said Ron in a hushed voice. "Sirius' brother was a DE, wasn't he? Maybe he told Sirius the secret of how to get the weapon!"
"Yeah - and that's why Dumbledore's been so keen to keep Sirius up all the time!" said Harry.
"Look, I`m sorry," cried Hermione, "But neither of you is making sense, and we`ve got no proof for any of this, no proof Voldemort and Sirius are even there -"
"Hermione, Harry`s seen them!" said Ron, rounding on her.
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She does not let Harry's anger and panic - and he gets very intense - nor Ron's illogical thinking, nor the fact that she suddenly has to deal with two against one, to deflect her into trying to convince Harry not to act rashly.
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"OK," she said, looking frightened yet determined "I've just got to say this-"
"You..this isn't a criticim, Harry! But you do..sort of...I mean - don't you think you've got a bit of - a - saving-people thing?" she said.
He glared at her.
"And what's that supposed to mean, a "saving-people thing"?"
"Well...you..." she looked more apprehensive than ever "I mean... last year, for instance...in the lake...during the Tournament...you shouldn't have...I mean, you didn't need to save that little Delacour girl...you got a bit...carried away..."
A wave of hot, prickly anger swept through Harry's body; how could she remind him of that blunder now?
"I mean, it was great of you and everything," said Hermione quickly, looking positively petrified at the look on Harry's face. "everyone thought it was wonderful thing to do -"
"That's funny," said Harry through gritted teeth, "because I definitely remember Ron saying I'd wasted time acting the hero...is that what you think this is? You reckon I want to act the hero again?"
"No,no,no!" said Hermione, looking aghast "Thats not what I mean at all!"
"Well, spit out what you've got to say, because we're wasting time here!" Harry shouted.
"I'm trying to say - Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the COS to lure you there, its the kind of thing he does, he knows you're the - the sort of person who'd go to Sirius's aid! What if he's just trying to get you into the DoM--?"
"Hermione, it doesen't matter if he's done it to get me there or not - they've taken McGonagall to St.Mungos, there isn't anyone from OotP left at Hogwarts who can tell, and if we don't go, Sirius id dead!"
"But Harry - what if your dream was - was just, a dream?" Harry let out a roar of frustration. Hermione actually stepped back from him, looking alarmed....
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She tackles a very sensitive subject and JKR emphasises the difficulty of the task and her strength in overcoming it by making her fear and apprehension clear. Harry's opinion matters a great deal to her.
Hermione shows tenacity and a fierce emotional and intellectual involvement in this debate. She's ALL THERE in this scene, there's nothing half-hearted or uncommitted about it. There's also a selflessness about it (in contrast to the Ginny quotes above). She doesn't take personal offence at Harry's shouting and so allow him to put her off. Ron, for instance, gets sidetracked at one point when Harry turns on him:
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"What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him....
"You didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a problem,!" said Ron heatedly.
"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you`d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"
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Hermione manages to get Harry to compromise and comes up with a plan (again unlike Ginny and also in the midst of very heated debate). JKR shows the extreme loyalty behind Hermione's decision to go into Umbridge's den through her earlier scenes where Hermione was vehemently opposed to Harry breaking into the office. She also shows Harry recognising that loyalty despite his anger.
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"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperately "Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d-do whatever it takes to try and save him."...."But if this is a trick of Voldemorts, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to."
"I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone. Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it," Even through his anger and impatience, He recognised Hermiones offer to accompany him into Umbridges office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty."
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Hermione never goes for the soft option just to please Harry, despite her very strong feelings for him, whether they are characterised as friendship or something more.
OOTP is full of characters letting Harry down because they ultimately don't quite care enough or they allow his behaviour to deflect them, or they don't know him well enough or they don't have his best interests at heart. Not Hermione, she has those bases covered. Although she does allow herself to be persuaded by Dumbledore at the beginning not to tell Harry what's going on and at the end by Ron not to push the subject of Sirius.
Dumbledore misreads Harry and the situation; Snape stops teaching him occulmency because of the old emnity with James, Snape and Sirius allow their old emnity to cloud their vision on what's best for Harry and the Order; the Weasleys and Sirius don't try hard enough to draw Harry out of his room and his depression at Christmas; Ron stops Hermione from talking to Harry about Sirius at the end.
Hermione takes on the task - despite being "nervous" and "anxious" - of having to tell Harry the Daily Prophet has turned his name into a joke. She just about snaps Ron's head off when he suggests Snape may be trying to help Voldemort because she doesn't want Harry deterred from studying occulmency. She relentlesslessly tries to keep Harry focused on occulmency and from going into Umbridge's office despite knowing she'll hardly win popularity contests for doing so. She cancels Christmas with her family and a skiing holiday to come to Harry's aid. She comes up with the ideas and organisation for the DA and Rita articles which make a big practical difference to how Harry feels during the year and unselfishly gives him all the credit.
I think this strength of character is crucial to Hermione's importance to Harry, the inspiration behind the "Harry needs Hermione badly" quote. Hermione is too strong, too fierce, too driven to allow Harry too far into the various minefields along his path. With Ginny, Harry would just plunge of the road at some point with her running along behind and never make it back.
I think JKR's trying to say that the stronger you can be as an individual the more you can bring to a relationship. And in my opinion it's true: the better you feel about yourself the more generous you can be to others.
JKR has stressed Hermione's mental independence and individuality in the way she has written the character. She regularly surprises the boys with what she does, she's been prepared to go off to classes without them on her own, she's kept her own counsel on a lot of things, she's always had her own way of operating. Sure Harry is hugely important to her but she chooses to put her heart into helping him.
109. I feel sorry for JKR by Mad Eye Mike
I've seen many r/hr and h/g shippers say many things about Harry and Hermione in these online debates and to be honest, the level people will sink to in order to support their ship not only offends me, but it ticks me off as well.
So I'm going to tell you what makes me feel sorry for Joanna K. Rowling:
I feel sorry for JKR because she has written a beautiful friendship between Harry and Hermione and certain 'fans' have deliberately twisted, downplayed or flat out refused to acknowledge it just to make their own ship appear stronger.
I feel sorry for JKR because a great portion of fandom has portrayed Hermione as some sort of cold, cruel, unreasonable, uncaring, thoughtless, tactless, selfish, disrespectful, manipulative little witch who lacks any type of compassion and warmth as if she were some sort of an unemotional automaton.
I feel sorry for JKR because these same 'fans' then have the nerve to turn around and say Hermione is a kind, caring, thoughtful and loving girl when it's convenient to their ship (r/hr).
I feel sorry for JKR because a great portion of fandom does in fact view Hermione as a 'Scarlet Woman' when in fact, JKR made clear in GoF that Hermione is NOT one.
I feel sorry for JKR because she has written a wonderful female character in Hermione who has grown to be one of the most - if not the most - important thing in Harry's life and people continue to lessen her importance.
I feel sorry for JKR because people are so threatened by Harry and Hermione's bond, they'll say things like "Harry was hungry for sandwiches and that's why he came out of his room" or "He opened the door and was surprised to see her there".
I feel sorry for JKR because instead of writing Hermione to look like your stereotypical sex goddess whom all the boys want, she has instead created a normal looking bookworm who's true beauty lies within and some so-called 'fans' say Harry finds Hermione ugly.
I feel sorry for JKR because she has crafted a teenage relationship that isn't based on hormones, physical appearances and/or angst but rather one that is rooted in friendship, trust, loyalty, compassion, respect, trust and love and people say there's nothing there to be built upon.
I feel sorry for JKR because she wrote a very disturbing Yule Ball scene in which Ron berates, humiliates, accuses and treats one of his best friends like garbage and because some people hate Hermione so much, they found that scene funny.
I feel sorry for JKR because she's given young people everywhere a wonderful female role model to look up to and certain 'fans' still think of Hermione as nothing more than a consolation prize for Ron.
I feel sorry for JKR because she has made Hermione so important to Harry that when she's hurt, he can barely function or think straight and yet some people say he was only worried about being blamed for Hermione's death and not Hermione herself.
I feel sorry for JKR because she has written Hermione to look out for Harry when he himself isn't thinking rationally and people use this to say Hermione doesn't understand him.
I feel sorry for JKR because she continues to show Hermione giving Harry what he needs as opposed to what he wants and some 'fans' use this to say Hermione doesn't satisfy Harry's needs.
I feel sorry for JKR because she's using Hermione to deal with the issue of slavery and oppression and people blame the Hermione character for being insensitive towards House-Elves.
I feel sorry for JKR because she had Hermione help solve the mysteries involving the Stone; the Chamber; helped Harry travel back in time; taught him the Summoning charm which later saved his life; saved him from not only going off alone to the DoM, but from Umbridge as well and some 'fans' still don't give Hermione credit for anything.
I feel sorry for JKR because she uses Hermione as Harry's conscience and some 'fans' say Hermione is an annoying nag who mothers Harry.
I feel sorry for JKR because some 'fans' have twisted her text and character motivations to suit their own personal shipping needs.
I feel sorry for JKR because of all the fanfics online, Harry Potter fics are some of the worst and most offensive.
I feel sorry for JKR because her work is regularly distorted to reflect something it isn't.
I feel sorry for JKR because she created Draco Malfoy to be an evil racist and symbolize all that's wrong with the wizarding world and some 'fans' actually want to see him and Hermione get together because of some misguided and stupid notion they have of the bad boy who has a heart of gold.
I feel sorry for JKR because she's written Ron to have flaws like a normal human being and Ron fanatics excuse every single thing he does.
I feel sorry for JKR because Warner Bros. dumbed down and lightened the tone of the films to appeal to the mass-market kiddie audience.
I feel sorry for JKR because Chris Columbus was hired to direct the first two films.
I feel sorry for JKR because Chris Columbus royally screwed up the ending of Chamber of Secrets with the ridiculous and completely out of nowhere non-hug moment as well as the laughably bad and painfully sappy 'slow clap' finale.
I feel sorry for JKR because instead of people uniting together in celebration and love for her Harry Potter books, 'fans' have allowed their shipping preferences to tear them apart.
I feel sorry for JKR because some groups have accused her of trying to corrupt the minds of young people by spreading witchcraft.
I feel sorry for JKR because she's writing a series named 'Harry Potter' and many people think they're reading 'The Ron or Ginny Weasley Adventures.'
And finally...
I feel sorry for JKR because the woman probably has no idea how many of her 'fans' would've hated her when she was younger considering she based Hermione off herself.
110. How H/Hr make R/Hr and H/G impractical by Turambar
Ron/Hermione shippers believe that Hermione, despite alot of evidence to the contrary, has romantic feelings for Ron to compliment his crush on her. Harry/Ginny shippers believe that Ginny has unresolved romantic feelings for Harry and that Harry finds her attractive. Apparently Ron and Hermione are suited because they are opposites while Harry and Ginny are suited because they have personality and interests - bravery, recklessness, quidditch - in common.
Well let's imagine that R/Hr and H/G do get together, as unrealistic as that seems to me. What then? What does OOTP tell us about these personalities and how they would react?
HARRY:
Harry was very upset at R/Hr spending time together at the beginning of OOTP without him.
There were other factors at work here - an overall anger at being kept in the dark, being sidelined despite his experience, being left at the Dursleys - but the personal hurt was strong and so was the impression he didn't understand quite what he's feeling.
"But when were they going to see him?...but how soon was soon...He could hardly bear to think of the pair of them having fun at The Burrow when he was stuck in Privet Drive...In fact, he was so angry with them he had thrown away, unopened, [birthday presents]....Why had Ron and Hermione got together without inviting him along too?...All of a sudden after yearning to see them for a solid month - he felt he would rather Ron and Hermione left him alone....'So how come I have to stay at the Dursleys' while you two get to join in everything that's going on here...So you haven't been in the meetings, big deal. You've still been here, haven't you? You've still been together'...Every bitter and resentful thought Harry had had in the past month was pouring out of him: his frustration at the lack of news, the hurt that they had all been together without him...'I suppose you've been having a real laugh, haven't you, all holed up here together....So what have you two been doing, if you're not allowed in meetings?' he demanded. 'You said you'd been busy."
Also all three felt very awkward about R/Hr having to sit without Harry in the prefects' carriage on the train journey.
The interesting thing is that R/Hr have only had very small periods of time together: meeting up a bit before Harry in POA and GOF, small periods of time at school while Harry has played quidditch.
Remember his reaction to their trip to Hogsmeade in POA where, feeling down because he was missing out, he felt they looked as though they'd had the 'time of their lives' when they came back.
In contrast Harry is used to Hermione spending time with him without Ron. This began in PS with the Norbert adventure while Ron was in the hospital wing and later Hermione going on with him for the Stone after Ron is knocked out rather than staying behind to get help for Ron. In POA Ron is dragged away by Sirius and H/Hr go to the Shrieking Shack together, Ron is knocked out again and in hospital again while H/Hr undertake the time-turner adventure. In GOF Hermione chooses to spend most of her time with Harry during his fight with Ron before the First Task, including spending hours helping him train, on a visit to Hogsmeade where she sees Ron but doesn't speak to him and sitting with him in class. In OOTP H/Hr have two forest adventures together without Ron.
Harry agrees to go with Hagrid while Ron is playing in the quidditch final on his and Hermione's behalf, without Hermione verbally agreeing. He expected her, based on past behaviour, to go with him to help Hagrid rather than stay and watch Ron on his big day.
Imagine if that pattern of behaviour had been different: and JKR had written the books to emphasise a deepening friendship between R/Hr. For instance if she had written when Ron got knocked out in PS that Hermione ran over to Ron's side and said to Harry 'I'll go and get help for Ron', or that it was Ron who pulled Millicent off Hermione in COS, or that Hermione ran towards both boys yelling 'Harry, Ron, I knew you'd work it out' in COS, or that it was Ron's arm she grabbed for support when the Fat Lady was slashed in POA, or that Hermione rushed over to Ron looking shaken and upset and tried to comfort him when he broke his leg in POA or that Hermione ran to get help when Ron was knocked out in POA or that Hermione chose to spend more time with Ron than Harry when they were fighting in GOF or that Hermione chose to go to Hogsmeade with Ron or at least went over to say hello when she saw him there in GOF.
Now if all that - and many other incidents - had been written with an R/Hr slant would Harry have just assumed that Hermione would for a start automatically go with himself and Hagrid? Afterall didn't Ron, their best friend, deserve support? If Harry had known, based on previous behaviour, that Hermione would have wanted more than anything to watch Ron compete he could have said "I'll see what he wants, you stay here and support Ron.' Remember this is the girl who made a point of watching Harry's quidditch match in POA when she wasn't talking to the boys and was then afronted when he asked if she had seen it. As if she'd miss an ordinary match of Harry's, yet here's a quidditch final? Doesn't Ron actually need as much support as he can get?.
Over the course of OOTP, Harry spends a lot of the time focusing on Hermione. Often with their debates they seem to effectively be the only two there. There is a major change to the pattern of the trio's debates. Before OOTP Harry tended to listen to Ron and Hermione thrashing out points and then choosing which one he preferred. In OOTP the debates are largely between Harry and Hermione with limited input from Ron.
We get a lot of descriptions from Harry about what she is doing, her reactions and a number of references to her face glowing or eyes shining or to her smiling - more so than in previous books. He hears her voice in his head and she appears in his dream and in his occulmency encounters with Snape. These are developments in their relationship even while Harry's relationship with Cho reaches a climax and conclusion. He thinks of Ron and Hermione to produce a patronus against the dementors, he feels a "warm glow" inside him when he meets up with them, he thinks of them again after his dream about Sirius. (Note: the warm glow flares when he sees his friends but Hermione hugs Harry for a couple of minutes before he sees Ron so the glow starts when she hugs him).
Harry has always measured Cho's effect on him by how his stomach reacts. But in OOTP Hermione's effect on him at times is far more powerful, full-bodied: "the warm glow that had flared inside him", "a wave of hot prickly anger swept through Harry's body" "such a powerful wave of relief swept through Harry that for a moment he felt light-headed."
In short, she becomes even more essential and important to Harry over the course of OOTP.
While Harry goes through a period after Sirius' death of not wanting to be with people, that mood is eased somewhat by scenes of solidarity in the hospital where JKR brings back the group of six and on the train where she highlights the DA members and at the station where she highlights the Order members: all sources of strength to Harry.
So while the prospect of Harry wanting to withdraw appears strong with the fresh wound, that's lessened by the ending.
Essentially, for all these reasons it seems to me very unlikely that he would want Ron and Hermione to spend time away from him on their own should they get together in the next book.
HERMIONE:
Hermione has a long history of prefering to be with Harry over Ron, showing more concern for Harry over Ron and having a closer relationship with Harry than Ron. If in the unlikely event she decided she'd rather be Ron's girlfriend than Harry's, it is still impossible to envision her making Harry's welfare anything but her top priority.
Remember Book Six marks the start of the Second War: the situation is worsening, Harry will need Hermione more than ever.
What would Hermione have learned from the OOTP year? Basically that her instincts about and knowledge of and concern for Harry were greater than anyone else's, including Dumbledore's. She, unlike Dumbledore, knew Harry would do something rash if he were kept out of the picture at the Dursleys. She has also learned that mistakes and wrong advice at this stage could be very costly. For example, Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny and Neville could all easily have been killed at various stages of the DOM fight.
What other conclusion can be drawn from the Christmas scene where she puts considerations of a family Christmas and a skiing holiday with her parents aside to go to the help of her friend. Everyone else in the house is very concerned for Harry, but their concern is shown in ineffectual sympathy. Only Hermione has the passion to confront Harry, get him out of that room and on the road to recovery. She won't take no for an answer.
Throughout the book her actions make Harry's load easier: I'm referring to Hermione's idea to set up the DA which, Harry says, was the major factor in helping him get through the year, and her idea to get his story published which changed people's opinions about him in the school and outside and eased a lot of negative pressure on him.
I think her desire to help and protect Harry will make her even more determined to stick by him and to shoot down other influences or views that Hermione believes are counter to Harry's welfare. Look at the savage way she attacked Ron when he suggested that Snape might be making Harry's mind control weaker: she didn't want Harry to be put off learning occulmency.
This priority of Hermione's to ensure Harry's safety and support him has the potential to wreck her relationships with Ron and Ginny.
If we take the R/Hr shippers' line that both Ron and Hermione have feelings for each other, imagine that they acknowledge those feelings. What happens then? They become boyfriend/girlfriend rather than friends. Now normally one's partner takes preference over a friend: that's why they are your partner, they're supposed to be more important to you.
So either:
1) the trio's relationship stays the same with Hermione still focusing and fussing over Harry and relegating Ron to second best (she does that now with their friendship).
2) Ron/Hermione spend time away from Harry
Now with 1) as much as Ron loves Harry as a friend how would he cope with Hermione showing more concern, interest, devotion to Harry than himself? The situation is manageable as friends because that's the pattern of behaviour they are all used to. But when the relationship gains importance, expectations change. Why is she his girlfriend if she wants to be with Harry? Why does she put Harry's needs before his? Why is Harry the one she turns to for support in a crisis? All this would eat away at Ron. JKR has already shown the effect of Harry and Hermione's closeness on their relationships with Cho and Viktor, who both became jealous and suspicious.
With 2) is it at all realistic that Hermione would want to be off walking around the lake with Ron or going to Hogsmeade with him if Harry has some problem that needs solving? Look at the effort she put into the Rita article, the DA idea and coins: schemes centred around Harry. Is it at all realistic that she would want to be off with Ron, leaving Harry to be influenced and helped by someone else? Someone who wouldn't know him as well as Hermione and wouldn't care for him as much.
RON:
Ron was a background figure in OOTP seeming to be fearful of getting into arguments with Harry and lacking in confidence.
But we have now seen two flashes of jealousy/suspicion over his best mates' relationship: in GOF when he asked Hermione about love potions and in OOTP with his reaction to Hermione's comment on Harry's kissing abilities.
Some H/Hr shippers believe that he caught on quicker than Harry and Hermione did that neither were happy after Cho kissed Harry and that he was trying to suggest Harry to Ginny on the train to get Harry out of the way. His old jealousy over Viktor was ressurrected again and he acted in a possessive way over news of Ginny's boyfriends.
R/Hr shippers seem to believe that the trio's relationship would carry on as normal if R/Hr happens. They don't take the change in expectations into account. For instance most of the scenes where Hermione has held onto Harry and he has been protective of her have happened when they've been alone. He was there when Hermione grabbed Harry's arm in POA (Fat Lady) and OOTP (DOM) but we don't know if he saw that or not. Ron has never had to face the sight of Hermione clinging to Harry, whimpering with fear as in the scene with Grawp. I doubt very much if he would be understanding of such behaviour if Hermione was his girlfriend.
GINNY:
R/Hr and H/G shippers point to the fact that Hermione and Ginny are friends and say that everything would be rosy if R/Hr and H/G happened. But at the moment Ginny is not a threat to Hermione's closeness with Harry because Ginny's relationship with Harry is on a much lower level than Hermione's.
Ginny is not Harry's equal. Clearly in OOTP Ginny is ready to take orders. When she offers Harry the chocolate, Ginny is incapable of coming up with any ideas of her own to help Harry apart from offering to go to the twins to see if THEY can think of something. Were's the initiative? She is unquestioning and unthinking in the chocolate scene. She gives no thought to the possible consequences. All she wants to do is help Harry achieve what he wants to do, regardless of how mad that is. JKR even writes when they arrive at the MOM that Ron and Ginny "march" into the phonebooth "obediently." Good foot soldiers. Harry does not need that in a partner. He needs someone who is strong enough for him to be able to lean on at times and whose advice he can trust. Remember the right vs easy theme? Hermione is the one who is right.
Look at the scene where Harry and Hermione are debating what to do about Sirius: it's almost like the two parents discussing with the kids hanging around in the background. Ginny agrees to help without knowing what it's about. She, Ron and Luna take orders from Hermione as Hermione works out a plan to get into Umbridge's office.
Imagine the roles were reversed and it was Harry debating with Ginny what to do with Ron, Hermione and Luna listening on. It just doesn't work does it? Yet isn't that what should happen if Ginny was Harry's girlfriend and Hermione was his friend, considering one is supposed to be more important than the other?
For a start there wouldn't be a debate, they'd be discussing how to fly to the MOM. Would Ginny be able to offer any advice or alternative views? And would Hermione be content to keep quiet in the background if she disagreed with what was happening? Would Hermione be able to stop herself from offering advice? And how would Ginny cope with that?
Harry wasn't easily impressed by Ginny in OOTP: he noted that he would have caught the snitch quicker than her in one game, he didn't want Ginny, Neville or Luna to go to the DOM. Yet despite all his knowledge of Hermione's correct instincts, intelligence, jinxing skills and planning ability he would go to Ginny for advice and support rather than Hermione? And if not how would Ginny cope with being second best to Hermione? Well considering she gave Michael Corner the flick after he got upset at her team beating his at quidditch, I'd say she'd have a low tolerance threshold.
Ginny has a few barriers to overcome to become important to Harry.
She's younger, she's close friends with Hermione and friends with Harry and they (H/Hr) are both also friends of the Weasley family. She's the kid sister of Harry's best male friend.
Just how difficult is it going to be to wean Harry away from his two best friends - one of whom happens to be her big brother - to spend time alone with her?
Is Hermione going to take any erosion of her closeness to Harry lying down? Well clearly what happened with Cho suggests she won't.
Let's think of the practical implications: Both Ginny (and Luna) are in a year below Harry, Hermione and Ron. So the pattern of the trio spending so much class time and after hours study time together must continue unless there is a volcanic upheaval in their friendship. Ginny and Luna's magical learning and experience is at a more junior level than the trio's therefore they can't help Harry with studies or advice to the same level as Hermione can. And Hermione, as each book tells us, is advanced for her age, the best student overall of her year.
It's curious that JKR made other candidates for Harry's heart apart from Hermione belonging to different years than the two of them. Cho is a year ahead and in a different house, Luna is a year behind and in a different house, Ginny is a year behind and in the same house.
That practical barrier means Harry will spend most of his time with Ron and Hermione unless there is a split in their friendship. Since we've seen that virtually nothing will keep Hermione from Harry, any future split between Ron and Harry would most likely see Hermione spending most of her time with Harry. That's what she chose to do in GOF.
111. Why Hermione is not the right girl for Ron by Lleyki
Okay I think almost all of us here have read Angua's oh-so famous essay of why Hermione isn't the right girl for Harry. I mean how could we not? Almost every R/Hr shipper treats it like their bible for their ship. I myself have read it and I have never seen a more biased essay in my life. MANY of the arguments and textual evidence was taken greatly out-of context to prove the author's points. I have written many arguments detailing those failings in the essay but that's not what my essay is about today. I figured why not use those same so-called brilliant points and analyse just how perfect Ron and Hermione is? Okay just to remind persons, the main arguments were:
Hermione is NOT attractive to Harry
Hermione's talkativeness drives Harry crazy
Harry rebels against Hermione's bossiness and mothering with resentment, withdrawal and deceit
Hermione is too rational a person for Harry
Hermione and Harry do not have fun together
Okay in the remainder of this essay I will use these SAME arguments , except in terms of Ron and Hermione. Here goes:
Hermione is NOT attractive to Ron
We are of course at the disadvantage of not hearing Ron's personal thoughts so as such many persons have been used to assuming whatever they want. Many R/Hr shippers have been arguing what a great love-story the two have had since the first book. Okay whatever. The main issues of this point in Angua's essay was that Hermione was described as having bushy hair and big teeth and since that's Harry seeing her, well he obviously does not find her appealing. Fair enough. Okay let's consider Ron. Ron for almost four books never makes any reference to Hermione in an appealing or unappealing way. When in GOF he needed a date, he came to the shocking realization that she was a GIRL. Now correct me if I'm wrong but to be attracted to this person wouldn't that have meant an acknowledgement a long time ago of her being a girl? This is a sudden and shocking realization to this boy, yet we are to believe he was attracted to her for so long?
Even before Ron's own admission of Hermione being a girl; we see him mocking the fact that Neville had asked her to the dance and mocking her saying she had a date. He is of course certain she was just lying to not have to go with Neville. Even later by her own admission of having a date, he doesn't believe her. Why? Why is it so impossible that Hermione could have had date. Yes we get that she is his female friend who is a bookworm and not a big social person so initially there would be surprise; but still why was Ron SO disbelieving of this long after Hermione left the room? Everyone was getting dates; why is Hermione actually being able to get one out of a school of hundreds of boys SO shocking and disbelieving? Could it be that Ron did not think of Hermione as attractive? Sure she's his best friend, so he doesn't think her ugly; but come on, the bushy hair, big teeth, book-worm thing isn't exactly attractive is it? Especially not to a boy who couldn't resist Fleur for a second.
It is also interesting to examine the scene even before this, with the boys discussing finding dates. Hermione was very much present in the room but it is interesting to note BOTH completely ignoring her as even a mere possibility. At least we can argue that Harry had liked Cho since the year before, knew immediately that's who he wanted to go with so it really was a case of finding the courage to ask her. As far as the text showed Ron had no particular girl in mind. He was simply interested in finding a pretty one. Plain and simple. So WHY wasn't Hermione, his friend, the girl sitting right next to them at the time, considered? Oh sure one could argue that seeing as she's his friend, he being a teenage boy would never consider her date potential. Fair enough. However when he went on his little insensitive speech about not wanting a troll and she called him on his attitude; a simple statement could have been added. One where he questions why she was getting so upset, seeing as he wasn't referring to her as one of those trolls. This would have served to show in no uncertain terms that whether romantically or not, Ron saw Hermione as someone pretty to say the least. Plus it would have certainly been a help to the famous R/Hr ship.
Ron was the one to mention Hermione's shruken teeth. Many R/Hr shippers have used the old; it just showed how much attention he pays to her and how interested he is in her. He noticed and Harry didn't. Fair enough. My point though is, for Ron to have noticed the shruken teeth, he would have had to notice the ones before. Let's examine Ron's words in that scene. When he mentions her teeth being different, Hermione informed him that she wouldn't have kept those fangs Malfoy gave her (obviously she assumed he was referring to that); Ron then says that no, her teeth is all normal size now. NORMAL size now? Wait you mean, is it possible that Ron had been aware of Hermione NOT having normal sized front teeth? Thus all the time Harry mentioned them it wasn't because he was some awful, ogre who wasn't the least attracted to her and never would be? Is it possible that Hermione's having large front teeth and it being mentioned twice, (once when Harry first meets her and then at the start of GOF, where she later reduces them) had to do with simple descriptive elements of the character; such as Ron being tall and freckly, Lockhart being handsome, etc? So since Harry mentioning it according to Angua's essay was proof of him not being attracted to her, I think it is safe to say that Ron certainly does not find Hermione attractive.
One of the lamest parts of that essay at SQ for me was the argument that Harry really wasn't that impressed with Hermione at the Ball and she was somehow really the least prettiest. Okay; I can't tell you how much I laughed at that one. However again this isn't so much a rebuttal essay as it is an examination of Ron and Hermione's relationship using the essay's same points. Therefore I'll refrain from arguing against that opinion of Harry and consider Ron's behaviour and attitude in relation to the Ball. So Hermione was the least prettiest to Harry; but I say at least he noticed. JK gave us an appreciation by him to the point of Harry almost waxing poetic about Hermione's appearance. What did RON think of Hermione's appearance and as Angua pointed out all her energy and time spent making herself look good? Does anyone really know? Of course not; because not only does he not even glance her way when she passes him on the way to the Champions' Table, but he never gets over his self-serving, selfish, adolescent behaviour for one second to say a simple, maybe even grouchy, "you look nice." Nothing. In the least we could have seen Ron's jaw drop as Harry's did. We could have seen him stare at her in shock and appreciation when she passed him in the hall. The only thing we got from Ron that night towards Hermione was bitterness and spite. I know, I know, it was because he liked her SO much and was jealous and didn't know how to handle it. However has it ever been explicitly stated that Ron was jealous because he had such STRONG feelings for Hermione or was it that he was bothered by her date being someone THAT important. Whatever the case may be; I don't know about anyone else but I would not want a guy who couldn't get past his self-serving whining for one second to appreciate me and pay me a simple compliment.
Hermione's Talkativeness Drives Ron Crazy
There was very little to this argument by Angua except for Harry's telling Hermione shut up when she was going on and on in the library. Again I'll refrain from arguing against this point. In terms of Ron; when the boys first meet Hermione and she goes on a long mantra about herself and what house she wants to be in, etc. his first words after she leaves is to say that he hopes whatever house she's in he won't be in it. Later on Harry mentions everyone but Neville being bored stupid by her talking about what she read in Quidditch Through The Ages. Ron is the one who later goes on about why it is no one can stand Hermione. In POA, Harry makes mention of the fact that everyone in the class had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once and Ron did it at least twice a week. The fact is Hermione does talk alot; especially if it's something she's passionate about. It is a quality that irritates many at different times. However while we've seen Harry reacting to it once or twice; Ron seems to make it a starting point for many of his snarky comments towards her.
Ron rebels against Hermione's bossiness and mothering with resentment, withdrawal and deceit
Okay I never got the purpose of using points from before the boys were friends with Hermione. Seriously who would appreciate someone who wasn't their friend interfering in their lives? However since Angua started this, I'll simply continue it. When the boys first meet Hermione, she does approach them in a bossy manner. Ron's reaction is to say he hopes whatever house she's in he's not in it. When she returns later, again to bossily inform them that she hoped they weren't fighting, Ron's reaction is to rudely ask her if she wanted something. When Hermione shows up after Harry and Malfoy agree to duel, even before she says anything, Ron's reaction is a very sarcastic "can't someone eat in peace around here." He later roughly and rudely informs her to go away when she tries to stop them from going to the duel. There is alot of resentment shown by Ron towards Hermione for most of her bossiness. It's what leads him to make the thoughtless statement that that's why nobody likes her. A statement that even while it caused her to be in danger, he later was reluctant to go and try to help her. He very much resents her bossiness. Even after becoming friends we see him responding to her bossiness and mothering of trying to get them to start studying; by irritatingly telling her they had ten weeks left before exams. When the two attend Harry's game planning to attack Snape if he tried anything, Ron again in an irritated manner, informs Hermione to stop nagging when she goes into mothering and bossy mode by reminding him of the spell.
In COS, when Hermione shows up at the portrait of the Fat Lady, after the welcoming feast; she goes into full-on mothering and bossy mode; telling them how crazy it was to take that flying car. Ron abruptly cuts her off by rudely informing her to just tell them the password. Later, after he receives the howler from Mrs.Weasley; again he abruptly tells Hermione to not tell him that it was what he deserves. Again we see him reacting to her bossy reactions with alot of resentment.
When Hermione tells about the Firebolt, an act many saw as her bossiness and mothering; Ron not only yelled and berated her for it but stopped speaking to her altogether. Keeping in mind again that this was something that wasn't even his; but he reacts with so much anger and resentment towards her that it might as well have been. When Harry shows up unexpectedly in Hogsmeade and Hermione goes into mothering mode by listing all the reasons this is a bad idea; Ron eventually just cuts her off while she's still speaking; by asking Harry if he'd seen the Fizzing Wizzbees. Later on in the novel, while not speaking to her over Scabbers, he rudely and harshly responds to her telling Harry not to go into Hogsmeade again. He is resentful and insinuates that she is trying to get Harry expelled. Later he seems very comfortable deceiving her about Harry coming. We are told Harry couldn't meet Hermione's eyes but are told nothing of the sort about Ron. After Harry comes from Snape's office, Ron's reaction to her presence is one of defensiveness and anger, accusations. He roughly asks her if she'd just been to tell on them. Ron is the quintissential case of someone who redirects their own feelings of anger at themselves onto someone else. He felt stupid and guilty for having pushed Harry into doing something that was reckless and Hermione's presence was the handy scapegoat. He simply redirected his feelings onto her by trying to somehow make her the bad guy. He would the same thing later on in OOTP when she tries to make him feel better about his bad practice; by informing him that it was his first one. His reaction is immediate defensiveness, resentment and anger.
In GOF we are again seen instances of Ron's reacting to Hermione's bossiness and mothering with resentment. When she tries to get Harry to work on his egg for the next task, he rudely informs her that Harry had ages to work on the egg and that he needed a break. He rudely snaps at her infront of Sirius for going on about her concern for the house-elves and also her belief in Snape not being a bad guy. We see him doing the same again in OOTP when she defends Snape and tries to help Screacher. The fact is Hermione is bossy and does seem to have a very mothering quality about her. A need to take care of the persons she cares about. The thing is it's not a quality she's used with Ron as much as Harry. However, judging by the reactions Ron has to her mothering Harry and the times she is bossy to both; it is a safe bet that it's something he does not react well to or appreciate very much.
Hermione is TOO rational for Ron
It was argued by Angua that Hermione is a thinking person and as such lacks a certain amount of warmth at crucial times. I don't personally agree with this but let's just say for argument's sake it's all true. Let's consider this with her relationship towards Ron.
When Ron is attacked by Sirius we don't see any reaction from Hermione. Only later on are we informed by Hagrid that apparently she shed some tears over it. However this is one of your best friends and he's just been attacked by a notorious killer and you don't even come up to say at the least; "are you okay?" Or even ask your other best friend if he's okay? Nothing. Hermione shows no outward reaction to Ron whatsoever. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this is extremely harsh and cold. In COS, we never see Hermione making any reaction to Ron. Not to ask about how he was after all the drama with Ginny or even excitement over seeing him since being petrified. When Ron admits to hating being poor in GOF, Hermione's only means of support and warmth is to make a half-hearted joke that doesn't help in any way. In OOTP, after Ron's bad practice, Hermione's idea of helping is to inform him that it was his first practice. A big no since it made it clear in no uncertain terms that she automatically knew the practice was bad because of him. Even after he blows up and stomps off in embarrassment, her reaction isn't to feel bad over his plight; but to confirm from Harry that Ron had indeed been awful. Later on we see Ron being very upset about his embarrassing first game. Hermione shows alot of warmth by suggesting Ron come near the fire. However when he starts beating himself, we see little help from her. There are no words of encouragement, support, etc. The only thing we see is her getting up and going to the window, completely trying to avoid the entire situation. The fact is Ron is someone who needs and wants a girl who will pay alot of attention to him. One who will fawn over him and tell him how amazing he is and make him feel really good about himself; because he loves a spotlight. Hermione isn't that girl. Hermione can't stop fawning over Harry enough to worry about anyone else and besides she isn't the type to stroke someone's ego. Not even Harry's much less Ron's.
Hermione and Ron DO NOT have fun together
In PS/SS we are shown Ron and Hermione having fun when they are with Harry as a group. The THREE kids are shown to be getting along and having fun together. The same is shown in COS. The only thing that has made this point an issue is POA and the fact that Ron and Hermione went to Hogsmeade without Harry and had a good time. Okay. The first thing to be noted is Ron and Hermione's descriptions of the FUN things they did. Both seemed to have marked differences in what constituted fun. Hermione was talking about the history of the place and educational aspects of it, Ron about the food and such. The point is, these two kids went to a new place, both saw things of interests to them, and naturally had a good time. This is not so unbelievable. The one time we the readers are let in on Ron and Hermione's conversation at Hogsmeade, they're discussing Harry. Seriously, do these two have anything in common besides Harry? The majority of their first day in Diagon Alley at the start of the book was spent looking for Harry.
In GOF, we see them again having fun as a group at the QWC. However Hermione's atttentions seem to be towards Harry. He's the one she chooses to share the joke about the referree, not Ron. Why not share with both boys? There is little shown in GOF of Ron and Hermione having ANY fun together. Their moments were saturated with Ron's jealousy and spitefulness. Both over Harry's being chosen a champion which caused a rift in the trio and because of her involvement with Krum. On Hermione's part there was tenseness and defensiveness over Ron's attitude. However I know that's supposed to be their unresolved sexual tension. However I thought crushes and romance were supposed to make you happy and giddy, etc. not miserable and unhappy.
Many persons have made mention of Ron and Hermione's being alone for an entire month at Grimmauld Place without Harry. R/Hr shippers are squealing over some possible secret romance. I won't even go into the sheer absurdity of that nonsense. However the fact is we do not know what EXACTLY happened. They could have spent little time together, they could have gotten closer; we do not know. What we do know is that the two's relationship seems the same as it has been throughout. Nothing was different. There was no awkwardness, tension, etc. with the two. Now I am skeptical to believe that if these two 15yr. olds were having their first real relationship with someone they'd always considered a friend and keeping it from their other friend; we'd see NO awkward moments. No moments where it looked like they were hiding something. Personally I am convinced nothing happened in that month which says alot. It is a common belief Ron has feelings for Hermione. Fair enough. That said R/Hr shippers would like to believe that Hermione returns those feelings yet these two kids spent an entire MONTH alone with no interruptions from their other friend, yet NOTHING happened? I don't know. Seems like someone in that pair may not have some feelings like the other. One guess who. The only other thing we saw first-hand was Hermione's breathless, frantic and over-excited reaction to Harry's arrival.
Angua made an issue of the fact that Hermione laughed alot at Ron's jokes and not Harry's. However let's be honest here. All these characters have their elements and one of Ron's most striking is his sarcasm. He is the quintissential, sarcastic and funny sidekick. Hermione is not some Luna Lovegood, falling down laughing over every silly Ron joke. However when Ron takes shots at Malfoy or Snape, she laughs and rightly so; because most times the jokes are really funny and these two deserve the insults. However there are many instances of Ron genuinely teasing Hermione, where she IS NOT amused and that's where a problem arises. Hermione does not appreciate being the brunt of a joke and Ron's very nature is to be sarcastic about alot of things. This is not a good factor to any possible relationship these two could have.
Okay my point for this essay was to show that if one wanted, a strong case could be made against Ron and Hermione using these very same arguments. My essay was not as strong as it could have been due to lack of resources (i.e. I'm back at school so I don't have my books.) However the fact is I wanted to emphasise the silliness of many of the arguments used by Angua. For example the attempt at proving how Harry is not attracted to Hermione or how she isn't emotional and sensitive enough for him, etc. The truth is many of the things that have sometimes irritated Hermione about Harry bothers Ron. The difference is Harry has grown to accept those parts of her and the person she is. Those elements of Hermione are STILL causing conflicts with Ron, so HOW is she any more suitable for him?
MOD NOTE: Angua's essay can be found here :
Link supplied by Earendil, thanks.
--thereader
112. Harry, just Harry by Flying Phoenix
This essay is about why it can be only Hermione. I will explain it and show what I understand if I say a honest moment.
In PS/SS was Harry confronted with the fact that he is a wizard and not anyone he is already famous. He is Harry Potter who did end Voldemorts power over the world. He make him vanish. The prize was that he lost his parents, his childhood, love. Its much to believe it but he get it very fast because he meet people who show that he is indeed famous.
He meet Malfoy, this guy dislike Harry Potter right from start. Like other like Harry Potter from the start. They have already a statement about Harry but they don’t know him. This people did grow up with Harry Potter as the hero and not as the child who lose his parents.
As Harry meet the Weasleys or rather Ron again its at first about “him” and not about Harry. The first feelings which this people showed him as they knew he is Harry Potter was because he is that guy and not because he is just the ordinary Harry.
Harry don’t know this new world and don’t know what he or rather “him” did change as he made Voldemort vanishing. There lays the fundament why Ron don’t criticism Harry or stand up against him up. Ron can’t do that because there is at times to much thankfulness in it.
There comes the Weasleys in play. Do they like Harry because he is Harry or because he is Harry Potter? Thats difficult.
Because the Weasleys did grow up with the fairy tale that Harry Potter did destroy Voldemort as baby. Not even Dumbledore could do that. Now Mr and Mrs Weasley know he lost his parents because of Voldemort.
Let look at this Mrs. Weasley tells Harry "He is as good as a son to her" Thats nice and I'm fine with it but the interest part comes. "Who he got else?" Now is it out of pity or out of likeing Harry as a son? The boggart-scene Mrs. Weasley saw Harry dead its one of her fears. Remember Voldemort is back.
Is that about Harry or Harry Potter. It can be both. Off course Mrs. Weasley fear is it that Harry dies because that says if Harry dies and Voldemort is still in power there is no hope anymore. This implied if Harry dies her children will die sooner or later, too. Harry did destroy Voldemort once and not Dumbledore.
Now back to the scene "Who he got else?" This is more out of pity that Harry don't has his parents anymore as price that Voldemort did vanish 14 years off course Mrs. Weasley has to fill this or give him something back because if it weren't for Harry her family did live in terror of Voldemort.
|QUOTE |
|COS, UK-edition (B ), page 258: The hero who conquered the dark lord. |
Is it about Harry or Harry Potter?
Try a look at Ginny. She had this crush at him. I do think its over this crush and don't come back. Now let look at her. Had she this crush because of Harry or because of Harry Potter? Some did say because of Harry, I disagree.
She don't liked him because of his personality she did it because he was the hero. Look at this poem from her I post only the last line:
Is it about Harrys personality? No. She didn't like him because he is Harry.
Thats the reason why she gave up. Harry was not this hero anymore. She saw Harry, just Harry and this person wasn't that what she wanted.
Because for the Weasleys Harry is the famous Harry Potter thats why they weren't able to stand up against him or to reach him as he was depressed.
Just imagine if Sirius were just a little more mean he had easily point out after Mrs. Weasley asked if he know that this isn't James that Harry isn't just any hero, either.
Is it just Harry for the Weasleys? I doubt this and thats why I don't think this is his family. They will never this. Thats why I rule OBHWF out. This would and has in every fic a bitter taste for me. Its not about Harry its about Harry Potter, the-boy-who-lived.
Now I come to Hermione. There is it different. She is muggleborn. There is a reason why Harrys second best friend is a muggleborn witch. Its not because of Voldemort its much more that fact that’s by her is it about Harry and not Harry Potter. She isn’t grow up by this fairy tale. What she know about Harry Potter is possible two months old in PS/SS at the beginning.
Right from the start she is not afraid to stand up against Harry to tell him if he do thinks wrong. She isn’t afraid of his reaction and not deeply thankfully that he rescued the magic-world because she isn’t grow up in that world.
Now why makes that her to this girl? Its that she is after and in PS/SS his second best friend. She is the only female, the only girl who did step that close to Harry in the last 5 books. She don’t has this background that she see Harry Potter in him. She see Harry in him. Just Harry, her best friend.
She is around him just like she have to be. Don’t step back because that’s Harry Potter. This is important especially in future. Its about the prophecy this throw another weight at Harrys shoulders. This again makes him just to Harry Potter, which is marked by Voldemort.
Not Harry who don’t want this.
There will it be important that there is someone who don’t see Harry Potter.
Now I going to the most honest scene in this books.
|QUOTE |
|PS/SS, UK-edition, page 208: Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him "Hermione!" |
|"Harry-you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said |
|Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be careful!" |
There is no other scene in canon which shows more honest as this. Its about friendship its about just Harry. Not Harry Potter, not him. If you read the line that Harry is a great wizard than you compare this with Harrys comment at the beginning:
|QUOTE |
|PS/SS, UK-edition, page 47:“Hagrid,” he said quietly, “I think you must have made a mistake. I don’t think I can be a wizard.” |
There he didn't believe that he is a wizard and especially not the guy who did all that. He didn't believe it because Hagrid did speak in Harrys eyes about someone else. Not about him. But here at this scene with Hermione he know she mean him. Just him and nobody else.
She hugs him because its Harry who bring his live in danger, her best friend. Not Harry Potter not this other boy who is the hero. Its the ordinary Harry.
Thats the reason why Hermione is his second best friend and will be something more because she is the only one who is close enough to Harry and the one who see Harry, just Harry.
113. Why would Hermione prefer Ron to Harry by Turambar
One thing we know about Ron is that he has consistently compared himself to Harry throughout the series.
For example:
PS P122 Halloween "A Nimbus Two Thousand!" Ron moaned enviously. "I've never even touched one!"
PS P148 The Mirror of Erised "I'd give anything for one of these," he said. "Anything."
POA P47 The Leaky Cauldron "Probably cause it's you, isn't it?" shrugged Ron, still chuckling. "Famous Harry Potter and all that. I'd hate to see what the Ministry'd do to me if I blew up an aunt."
OOTP P142 The Woes of Mrs Weasley "I knew it!" yelled Ron, punching the air. "You always get away with stuff!"
There are occasions when Harry has compared himself or what he has to Ron and what he has: there's a reference somewhere (can't remember where) to Harry feeling envious of Ron's home life, he also compares himself to Ron in the prefect scene in OOTP.
So why wouldn't Hermione compare her two best friends, both males, to each other?
This brings me to one of the questions which I believe is hardest to answer convincingly in the whole shipping debate - why would Hermione prefer Ron to Harry?
1) Physical appearance
Ron is consistently described as red-haired, long-nosed, freckly, tall and gangly. He comes from a family that's meant to be a decent, nice, likeable representative group. They are not striking-looking like the Malfoys, for instance. None of the Weasleys are described anywhere as being good-looking. At school, Luna is the only girl in any of the books who has appeared to be attracted to Ron, although Padma became a bit more interested in him just after the second task in GOF. She wasn't thrilled about having him as a date to the Yule Ball.
Yet R/Hr shippers would have us believe that there's this irresistable sexual tension between Ron and Hermione, based purely on the fact that they bicker - which they have done since their first meeting, aged 11, before they became friends. The basic R/Hr argument is that Ron's attractiveness and charm offsets the negativity he throws Hermione's way.
Harry is described as being short and thin with knobbly knees and untameable hair. Not very promising, you'd think. But he also has black hair and bright green eyes - vivid, striking colours. Rita says his scar mars an otherwise "charming face". He describes his mother as being very pretty in the Mirror of Erised. His father was popular at school and a star quidditch player. Harry is a star athlete as well. What is most telling, however is the list of girls who have found him attractive: Ginny, Parvati, Myrtle, Cho, Fleur, various girls who asked him to the Yule ball, and, IMO, Hermione.
2) Bravery/physicality
The most brave things Ron has done in the books are sacrifice himself in the chess game in PS, push Harry aside to take the brunt of Sirius' attack (as a dog) in POA, tell Sirius he'll have to kill them all not just Harry in POA, with Hermione push Sirius off Harry in POA and go with Harry to the DOM in OOTP. Those are all commendable actions actions on his part. He has also stood up for himself, his family, Harry, Hermione and Ginny to insults from Malfoy.
But Ron is not an action man like Harry. He even complains about having to do Muggle cleaning for detention in COS and that his muscles seize up.
Harry is of course the hero of the books and is the bravest person in them.
Just in relation to Hermione he has jumped on a mountain troll for her in PS, pulled Millicent Bulstrode off her in COS, saved her life from the dementors in POA, been an emotional rock to hold onto in POA, waited underwater to ensure she was safe in the second task in GOF, physically protected her from Grawp and the centaurs in OOTP, saved her from the killing curse in the DOM. He has also stood up for her against Malfoy including duelling with him in GOF.
Just stand back for a moment and consider all that. Does it count for nothing or would a girl not admire a boy who had saved her life more than once and put himself at risk helping her? Would she just think, 'oh, yeah, so? But I prefer Ron even though he's done nothing like that for me.'
Harry has duelled with Voldemort, faced up to a dragon and killed a giant snake and spiders. As well Harry has been a daring, brilliant sportsman for five years and a Triwizard champion competing against and doing better than elite students three to four years older than himself. All the more reason to admire the guy.
3) Intelligence/talent/studies
Both boys are intelligent and have been lazy with their studies.
Chess is the only area in which Ron is superior to Harry and Hermione.
There are numerous examples of Harry doing a bit better than Ron in class work, homework and exams. He accepts Hermione's help with homework but both keep their respect for each other intact, whereas with Ron there's an element of blatant using in his relationship with Hermione that both of them are aware of.
Harry is better than Hermione at DADA, something she acknowledges. Another area where Harry and Hermione are both talented and have helped each other to great effect is in lateral thinking and working out clues. This is shown for example over Riddle's diary in COS, the chamber mystery in COS, working out what Dumbledore wants them to do with Buckbeak and Sirius in POA.
Ron, in contrast, has a strong illogical, superstitious streak.
Clearly there's more for Hermione to admire in Harry in this area than Ron.
4) Mental rapport
There are numerous examples in the books of Harry and Hermione being able to work out what each other is thinking, of being able to discuss and plan things, working together, figuring out clues. There is a lot less of this between Ron and Hermione. Their discussions quite often turn to bickering. There are passages such as when they are discussing going to visit Hogsmeade and relating their experiences there in POA where they seem on completely different wavelengths. Ron talking about sweets and Hermione about the history of the place. There are scenes in OOTP such as Harry's scar hurting at 12 Grimmauld Pl and the confrontation with Draco on the train where JKR makes a point of emphasising the H/Hr rapport to the exclusion of Ron and Ginny.
5) Loyalty and trust
Hermione's problems with Harry in POA never plumbed the depths of nastiness as her relationship with Ron did. Harry was the one who kept wanting to make up with her. An interesting and often overlooked aspect of the whole pet standoff is that after half a year of fighting over Crookshanks and Scabbers with Ron, Hermione does not utter one word of protest in the Shrieking Shack when Crookshanks jumps onto Sirius' chest to protect him - putting himself in danger - as Harry is steeling his nerve to kill Black.
Hermione chooses Harry over Ron as her protector in tense situations e.g. grabbing his arm when the Fat Lady is slashed in POA or in the DOM in OOTP. This is while Ron is present.
6) Kindness, tact, sensitivity
Yes, well, Harry wins hands down on that score.
7) Complexity
Hermione is an intelligent girl, someone with the ability to think deeply, plan and form strategies. One of Harry's attractions for an intelligent girl like herself, I feel, is his complexity, reserve, secretiveness. He's interesting.
Ron is far more of a heart-on-his-sleeve, say-what-he-thinks-and-feels person. He's been brought up in a loud, outgoing family.
8) Humour
The one area where Ron has an advantage over Harry?
It's true that both Harry and Hermione enjoy Ron's sense of humour in trio situations, or Ron and Harry together, but Hermione doesn't enjoy being the target of it.
Harry can also be humorous. For instance he is much better than Ron at deflecting Draco's barbs with a few verbal blows of his own.
"Got plenty of special features, hasn't it?" said Malfoy.."Shame it doesn't come with a parachute - in case you get too near a dementor."
"Pity you can't attach an extra arm to yours, Malfoy," said Harry. "Then it could catch the Snitch for you."
It's easier for Ron to take a more relaxed humourous approach to life: his life isn't as serious as Harry's - he doesn't have a mad wizard after him. But by the same token, he doesn't need Hermione's help, intelligence, special abilities the way Harry does.
Humour is obviously a main reason for why Ron is such a popular character for readers, but how important is humour in a relationship for Hermione? Is that going to be her main reason for being attracted to a guy?
She's an intelligent, pretty serious girl. She's interested in issues such as house elf liberation. She's academically driven, intellectually curious, thirsty for knowledge. McGonagall is rather obviously a mentor.
She was/is friends with a mature, 18-year-old guy, four years her senior. And Harry has famously been described by JKR as an "old soul". At the Yule Ball she was described as being "deep in talk" with Viktor. She writes him a huge long letter in OOTP. Does any of this sound remotely like Ron?
Another thing to bear in mind is what Hermione says about characters which gives clues to what's important to her.
For instance she has regularly in the series praised Harry when he has done something impressive such as producing the patronus in POA, mastering the summoning spell in GOF, in the DOM in OOTP before she is attacked by Dolohov.
On Lockhart in COS she said: "So clever the way you trapped that last one with the tea strainer."
On Cedric in GOF she said: He's not an idiot, you just don't like him because he beat Gryffindor at Quidditch. I've heard he's a really good student - and he's a prefect.
On Viktor in GOF she said: "He was very brave wasn't he?" and "he's really nice you know."
That last comment is made after she frowns when Ron sounds hopeful that the squid could get Viktor in the lake. Yet according to R/Hr shippers Ron is the one she is keen on. So in that case she'd be defending a boy she doesn't think much of to the boy she 'likes' and telling him the other boy is 'really nice.' Yeah, whatever.
I think it's pretty clear just from those lines that she admires bravery, achievement, intelligence and niceness.
So again I ask: why would Hermione prefer Ron to Harry?
|QUOTE |
|I think that you don't choose the one you love, so a list of reasons to say that Harry is "better" than Ron doesn't prove a thing |
1) This is not real life. This is a book series.
The author has to show romantic buildup if a romantic relationship is her intention, she has to show character development, foreshadowing. clues to future events.
2) She has to show why two people want to be together, why two people are interested in each other, why one person would feel more strongly about one person than another, why someone is more suited to one person than another.
3) If we are talking about love that grows from friendship, which would be the case for both H/Hr and R/Hr if it happens, then we are talking about love based on knowledge of and admiration for and respect for the other person. It cannot be the kind of love at first sight, two strangers falling for each other situation.
4) It's quite possible to work out why you like a particular person. You don't have to be ignorant about why that person appeals to you. You choose to be with that person or not.
I'm not trying to say that Hermione would literally have some mental check list where the boys get scores out of 10 or something.
The basic R/Hr position is that Ron and Hermione's bickering represents sexual tension between the two of them.
They read the pair's arguments as banter.
They say that Ron is a funny guy, he makes Hermione laugh, he lightens her up.
They say his negativity towards her and his fairly regular rudeness, insensitivity, sarcastic humour etc are part of this loveable rogue persona.
I've read posts by R/Hr shippers where they are clearly reading Ron as this earthy, sexy, physical character.
They find Ron the most likeable, easily understandable, funny and appealing character in the series. They excuse his negative behaviour. So they basically come from the position that Hermione does too.
Basically they think Hermione forgives Ron his negative behaviour because he's (in their view) a charming, funny guy and there's this underlying sexual tension going on.
Now personally I think that is utter crap.
I don't think that reading of Ron, and Hermione's relationship with Ron, is borne out by the text.
I also think that Hermione, having two male best friends, would naturally be aware of differences between them and how she relates to each of them and vice versa.
For instance in the Devil's Snare scene in PS, Harry says to her "lucky you pay attention in herbology, Hermione" and Ron says "and lucky Harry doesn't lose his head in a crisis - 'there's no wood,' honestly."
Harry is praising her, the fact that she came through for them after a moment of panic. He chooses to focus on the positive and his words may boost her confidence. Ron focuses on the negative and his put down could bite away at her confidence.
There's a clear difference right there in their treatment of her.
My purpose was
1) to show that the R/Hr reading of Ron doesn't stack up
2) to break down Ron and Harry's characteristics and assess how Hermione might see them
3) to basically show that logically she would prefer Harry to Ron because of how they get on, how Harry treats her in comparison to Ron, how Harry is written as a more attractive character than Ron, how Harry matches what Hermione finds attractive better than Ron.
114. Indications pointing to H/Hr by Turambar
Posted by AurorSlayer
Quote:
I know all the indicators are pointing to a R/Hr relationship
IMO this has to be one of the great myths of HP fandom.
R/Hr shippers believe it, some nervous H/Hr shippers believe it.
I don't for a number of reasons. There's plenty of evidence in OOTP pointing to H/Hr.
1) Harry's feelings
For the past three years Harry has had a crush on Cho while, unanalysised by himself, his friendship with Hermione has been steadily developing.
In OOTP JKR not only resolves Harry's crush on Cho (Cho's feelings are less certain), for the first time she starts to bring Harry's feelings for Hermione closer to the surface.
a) For the first time Harry feels extreme disquiet at Ron and Hermione getting together without him over summer and spending time together without him.
b) For the first time Harry starts to connect the voice he hears in his head as his conscience with Hermione.
c) Harry has a dream where Cho, his crush, turns into Hermione.
d) In the forest scenes with Grawp, Hagrid and the centaurs Harry shows a strong instinct to physically protect Hermione.
This did not happen during the Shrieking Shack and time turner scenes in POA.
JKR is showing a clear change, a clear progression in Harry's feelings.
In the POA scenes Harry allowed Hermione to grab hold of him for emotional and physical support. Yet they were facing equally scary foes as in OOTP: the Whomping Willow, the dementors, Lupin as a werewolf, Sirius as a big dog.
Harry also instinctively looks to protect Hermione when the group of six is escaping the DEs in the DOM.
e) There are examples of uncharacteristic behaviour by Harry towards Hermione that show her opinion has become more important to him.
He helps her with revision, he hides his bad marks from her, he responds badly when she doesn't get angry on his behalf when he thought she would.
JKR shows another progression: in POA Harry lied to Hermione about Hogsmeade without remorse, in GOF he felt guilt about lying to her over the egg but ignores it, in OOTP when he lies to her over occlumency he can't meet her eyes.
f) He spends a lot of time staring at Hermione in OOTP. There are constant descriptions of what she's doing, more than before. Noticeably for the first time there are descriptions of her "eyes shining" and "face glowing".
g) He sticks up for Hermione to his crush, Cho - even after Cho has made it clear she's suspicious and jealous of Harry's closeness to Hermione.
2) Ron's feelings
a) JKR makes it clearer in OOTP that jealously, envy and possessiveness were a large part of Ron's extreme reaction at the Yule Ball in GOF.
She shows Ron reacting negatively to:
- news of Ginny's boyfriends
- news that Hermione is in touch with Krum
- Hermione's opinions on Harry's kissing ability
- news that Harry and Hermione had left the quidditch final
b) She also throws doubt on the strength of Ron's attraction to Hermione by once again showing him basking in the spotlight, when he gets it, and seeking attention outside the trio. This has happened:
- after he was attacked by Sirius in POA
- after he had a role in the Second Task in GOF and Padma was keen to talk to him
- after the quidditch final in OOTP when he doesn't want to go outside and then ruffles his hair.
c) Since the Yule Brawl - which R/Hr shippers maintain is an obvious sign of their interest in each other - Ron and Hermione's relationship has not developed romantically.
Nothing happened while they were spending time together over summer.
- They said nothing happened
- Ron said Hermione was "going spare" over Harry
- there were no embarrassed looks when Harry turned up
- they didn't discuss their relationship because otherwise why is Ron surprised when he finds out later that Hermione is in touch with Viktor.
Hermione is not interested and wants to keep their relationship at friendship level. Why has Ron not made any romantic moves (unless you count the perfume)? Is he that clueless or does he sense that Hermione's not interested and is he suspicious of Hermione's relationships with both Viktor and Harry now?
3) Hermione's feelings
It would take too long to go over the past books but IMO Hermione first showed awareness of her feelings for Harry by kissing him on the cheek at the end of GOF - something she had never done before.
a) She follows this up by doing something she had never done in quite that way before - a bone-crunching hug for Harry when she sees him in OOTP.
JKR really stresses the intensity of Hermione's feelings here: Hermione just about knocks Harry to the ground, she hangs on for ages and doesn't want to let go, she babbles happily.
Harry feels a "glow" flaring inside him and he makes no move to let go either.
Ron tells Hermione to let Harry go.
Compare this scene to how they react when they meet up in POA.
Harry has commited an offense, has been on the run, has been afraid he would be expelled, he meets up with Ron and Hermione who are already together - all similar to OOTP.
Yet in POA they are all just relaxed and happy to be back together. Ron is the odd one out in the OOTP scene - he's grinning in the same relaxed way he was in the POA scene. It's Harry and particularly Hermione who are a lot more intense in the OOTP welcome scene.
b) Hermione shows that intensity again when Harry's charges are dismissed.
Hermione "had looked positively faint with anxiety when Harry had entered the kitchen and was now holding a shaking hand over her eyes". Everyone else is just normally happy.
c) Hermione shows she expected Harry to become prefect and was delighted at the idea of sharing this honour with him: "me too, Harry, me too!"
She lets out a shriek of delight when she sees the prefect letter in Harry's hand and JKR directly compares that reaction to Molly's shriek when she finds out Ron is prefect.
We know why Molly is delighted - because she loves Ron, he's her son.
So JKR is giving us a subtle comparison to measure the intensity of Hermione's reaction over Harry.
Some other points:
- she is so overjoyed at the thought of Harry getting the honour she doesn't care that Ron might be bothered by her reaction over Harry. Again JKR mirrors that with Molly - Molly doesn't care that Harry might be upset at her reaction even though she maintains that Harry is like a son to her.
- Hermione can't muster any delight when she finds out that Ron is prefect instead.
- Even after Harry has told her twice that Ron is prefect she still can't believe it and says "are you sure?"
- She talks about it to Harry as though Ron is not there.
- Then she can't think of any reasons why he should be prefect
- Then both Harry and Hermione look on silently all through the next couple of pages while the Weasleys talk among themselves.
d) Hermione unusually reacts intensly to Draco when he hassles Harry about being second-bested by Ron. Hermione - who normally tells the boys to ignore Draco - is standing up for Harry and Draco notices.
e) Hermione tries to behave as a good friend would to Harry over Cho but she is clearly bothered when she finds out Harry has kissed Cho.
- she keeps very close tabs on their relationship
- finds out the gossip on Cho
- keeps bringing the subject up with Harry to find out how he's getting on and how he's feeling
- asks Harry to meet her on Valentine's Day even though Harry's having his first date with Cho
- only gives Harry advice after he's had trouble with Cho.
f) In contrast to Hermione's long-time intense reactions to Harry's exploits at quidditch, she is low-key about Ron making the team.
She later says quidditch is just a game - but only once Harry is no longer playing. Funnily enough when Harry was still playing, quidditch was important enough for her to get decked out in the team colours for the first match of the season (Ron's first and Harry's last).
g) Hermione tries to get Harry to spend time alone with her making elf hats.
h) Hermione gives up a skiing holiday with her parents at Christmas to come to Harry's aid.
i) Hermione shows great delight at the impact of Rita's article about Harry and gives him all the credit even though it was her idea
j) Hermione once again grabs hold of Harry for physical and emotional support, including in the DOM when Ron is there.
k) She goes with Harry to find out what Hagrid wants instead of watching Ron play in the quidditch final, when Harry could easily have gone on his own. Neither of them even consider that possibility.
l) Hermione is shown to have given thought to and discussed Cho's problems and love life, Ginny's love life, Harry's love life. She also writes a long letter to Viktor. She is also forthright in many of her opinions to Ron and Harry.
The idea that she somehow has romantic feelings for Ron and yet
a) is too nervous and shy to broach the subject with him
or
b) is unaware if he is interested in her or not and so doesn't broach the subject with him
simply doesn't equate with the Hermione of OOTP. (Hermione is generally confident and shows leadership in OOTP).
She knows, on the other hand, that Harry has a crush on Cho and has to get over that before anything else can happen.
4) Other reasons
a) JKR introduces Luna - whom I'm sure will be important in non-shipping ways - and shows that Luna is particularly taken with Ron
- she stares at him
- she laughs at his jokes
- she calls him Ronald
- she basically tells him she wouldn't have minded going with him to the Yule Ball
- she wishes him (but not Harry) good luck at quidditch and wears a Gryffindor lion hat
- she isn't bothered by Ron's rudeness the way Hermione is
- she sings the Weasley is our king song during the meeting with Rita
JKR also splits up the group at the DOM so that Ron is with Luna and Harry is with Hermione.
JKR calls Luna the anti-Hermione.
b) Ginny is given a literary makeover and Harry still doesn't show any attraction to her. So what's going to make him become interested if she's Super Ginny now and that's not enough? How and in what ways is she going to change now?
c) JKR makes a special point of showing Harry and Hermione developing together as leaders of the students and having an influence in the wizarding world. It is significant that Hermione keeps pace with Harry in this book. Ron doesn't.
- Hermione thinks up the DA group and Harry teaches the students
- Hermione invents a system whereby Harry can tell students when the meetings are and a jinx to protect them.
- Hermione gets Harry's story to the public via Rita
- Hermione starts saying Voldemort's name. Only Dumbledore, Lupin, Harry and Hermione now do so.
- Harry and Hermione get rid of Umbridge via the centaurs.
d) JKR makes Hermione the one to make a practical difference to how Harry feels during the year.
- he gets great enjoyment out of teaching the sudents and it was her idea.
- he gets his story, because of her efforts, across to the public and the students and it changes what people think of him
- she's the main person responsible for getting rid of Umbridge, who made Harry's life a misery
- she's the one who gets him out of the room at Christmas after Sirius, Ron, Ginny and the other Weasleys had proved ineffectual.
e) JKR steps up Harry and Hermione's development together. They had one major adventure together in POA, a significant period of time together in GOF. In OOTP they have two forest adventures together and fight alongside each other in the DOM.
f) There is a significant amount of symbolism surrounding Harry and Hermione and their partnership which I've outlined before.
g) JKR saves moments that resonate with romantic imagery, even though at this stage they're friends, to Harry and Hermione.
- In PS the hug and the 'great wizard' speech
- In COS Hermione running towards Harry at the start and end
- In POA sitting in the forest at night in the moonlight, then flying on Buckbeak (a symbol of love) to rescue Sirius
- In GOF the walks around the lake together, the jaw-drop moment at the Yule Ball, the kiss at the end
- In OOTP the hug, Hermione drawing Harry out of the room at Christmas, Harry protecting Hermione in the forest twice.
115. The meaning of platonic by BlackKnight 86
Essay on "Platonic"
What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word “platonic”? Do you regard it as a good thing? Doing a Google search of the Internet produces a number of interesting hits, among them a web site about the “platonic solids”, which are three-dimensional geometric shapes. But, would that be your first guess?
For most people, hearing the word “platonic” conjures up images of human relationships between friends, with no romantic feelings involved at all. In fact, on that same Google search, one of the first five web sites that come up is one entitled “I Just Want to be Friends” - a humorous site about that exact type of relationship…except that only one party has no romantic feelings! While it is a humorous site, the use of “platonic” in that context is not regarded as being all that desirable.
There are quite a few differing viewpoints about the use of the word “platonic” in a relationship context - some good…and some not so good. It can be pretty confusing as to what, exactly, “platonic” means. In this essay, I’d like to go beyond the common usage and take a look at the whole concept of “platonic relationships”.
On , we find the following definitions:
“Platonic - 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Plato or his philosophy;
2. Transcending physical desire and tending toward the purely spiritual or ideal
3. Pure, passionless; nonsexual; philosophical”
Now, the first one is easy enough, since the whole idea of platonic relationships gets its start from the writings of the 4th Century BC Athenian philosopher Plato. But what about the second and third definitions? They are definitely used in the context of relationships; but there seems to be more to them than meets the eye - especially the second one. Transcends means “becomes greater than, as in intensity or power; surpasses”. That implies that it is, in fact, greater than physical desire.
Let’s take a look at the etymology of the word. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Ed., has this to say:
“Plato did not invent the term or the concept that bears his name, but he did see sexual desire as the germ for higher loves. Marsilio Ficino, a Renaissance follower of Plato, used the terms amor socraticus and amor platonicus interchangeably for a love between two humans that was preparatory for the love of God. From Ficino's usage, Platonic (already present in English as an adjective to describe what related to Plato and first recorded in 1533) came to be used for a spiritual love between persons of opposite sexes. In our own century Platonic has been used of relationships between members of the same sex. Though the concept is an elevated one, the term has perhaps more often been applied in ways that led Samuel Richardson to have one of his characters in Pamela say, ‘I am convinced, and always was, that Platonic love is Platonic nonsense.’”
As one may infer from the quote from Pamela, “platonic” is more often used today to mean a relationship that is simply non-physical. That seems to be how most people regard it. Is that a fair definition, though? Word usage is one thing, but let’s not lose the richness of the meaning behind it. We’ll start at the beginning: Plato’s masterpiece on the nature of love…the Symposium.
The Symposium is a dialogue - a literary work in the form of a conversation. It was written in BC 384, by the noted Greek philosopher Plato. Plato presented the Symposium as an Athens dinner party. The guests, including the philosopher Socrates (who was Plato’s mentor), all rise in turn and give a speech on Love. Through the speeches, Plato presents a variety of viewpoints on the nature of Love - as a power that can motivate virtuous behavior in a lover for the sake of the beloved; as a duality with the capacity for both good and evil; as a natural force, present in all things; as a lifelong search for completeness; and as the source of all good things. Socrates is the sixth speaker; and his ideas are arguably the main ones of the dialogue. He tells a story within a story, about when he was instructed on the nature of love by the priestess Diotima of Mantinea. I’ll let the Philosophical Forum at Frostburg State University in Maryland elaborate:
“One of the most important and famous theories of love in Western literature is the cluster of ideas that Diotima conveys to Socrates at the highpoint of Plato's Symposium. The theory consists of the following parts:
1.Diotima defines Love (Eros) as the desire to possess the good (or the beautiful) forever.
2.This desire is not only the openly sexual kind (what is usually called "love"), but also the desire of riches, the artist's desire of beautiful works, or the philosopher's love of wisdom.
3.All lovers desire to create--either children, or such more intellectual things as art works and political systems. By being creative lovers achieve some sort of immortality.
4.The beauty and offspring of the mind are more honorable than those of the body. The most admirable lovers are those who move from the love of the physical and individual to the love of the intellectual and general.”
Notice that Eros is primarily associated with desire, not just sexual desire. Notice also the mention of the progression from love of the physical and individual to the love of the intellectual and general (part 4). Plato believed that what we see in the physical world is a dim reflection of what truly exists - the ideal. Our efforts to understand it get us closer and closer to the ideal - closer and closer to the good (or the beautiful). The physical world - the world that so many of us think is so important - is actually at the bottom of this hierarchy.
One thing to remember is that Plato’s philosophy is over two thousand years old. It was the product of thought by some excellent minds; but minds nonetheless that were trained in a culture and knowledge base that is radically different from the one in which Plato’s Renaissance followers operated. Therefore, it is necessary to examine how Plato’s philosophy changed from his time to Marsilio Ficino’s time. It’s a natural evolution - since philosophy is defined as the love and pursuit of wisdom, it is understandable that, as human knowledge and cultures grow and change, people will combine, or synthesize, the various thought systems in the search for a common, universal philosophy that covers all human thought. A detailed analysis is beyond the scope of this essay; however, it is important to cover the basics. After Plato, Platonism soon evolved into what is called Middle Platonism, where Plato’s view that there are universal ideals (of which the physical world is a dim reflection) became the view that those ideals were the thoughts of a single god or divinity. This evolved further with Neoplatonism (or, "new Platonism").
From Richard Hooker, World Cultures Home Page (Washington State University):
“[The Neoplatonists] sought to combine Platonism with the other major philosophies of antiquity, such as Stoicism, Aristoteleanism, and various theologies. In this respect, the Neoplatonist activity was more similar to that of the philosophers of the Han synthesis in China, who also sought to systematically reconcile the myriad of contending philosophical schools. The two most important Neoplatonic philosophers, Plotinus and Proclus, were active in the third century AD, and between them they effected the most systematic synthesis of Roman and Greek thought ever attained in the European tradition. Their most important innovation was the fusion of the Platonic forms with Aristotle's concept of an ordered and hierarchical universe. In the Neoplatonic scheme of things, the top of the hierarchy of the universe was one god, called "the One," and that all the lower levels were "emanations" from God. The lowest level of the universe was this world; since it is the farthest from the One it is both less real than the rest of the universe and less like God.”
One of the Neoplatonic philosophers was Ficino, who wrote commentaries on a number of Plato’s dialogues. In 1469, Ficino wrote a commentary on Symposium; and it was in that commentary that we first see the concept for which Ficino is most famous - platonic love.
From Marsilio Ficino, Renaissance Man, Valery Rees, , July, 1999:
“The Symposium commentary, known as De Amore [On Love], is arguably an original work rather than a commentary, so far does it carry Plato's themes into new territory. It became one of the best known and best loved works of interpretation, serving as inspiration for generations of writers on the theme of love, sometimes filtered through its early emulators, Pietro Bembo, Leone Ebreo and Castiglione, then translated into Italian in 1544, and French in 1545 and 1578, and thus making its mark directly or indirectly on English and French literature, in the verses of Sidney, Chapman, Spenser and Shakespeare, of Ronsard and Sceve.”
Ficino, who in addition to Platonic philosophy was also a student of Augustinian theology, gave a version of the evolution of love from the physical (body) to the divine (God), called the Divine Ascent. It is similar to Plato’s progression; however, Ficino infused it with Christian theology.
From The Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, III, pp. 653-59:
“Ficino’s basic move is to interpret our experience of love in terms of the spiritual dynamics of the Neoplatonic cosmos. A true experience of love awakens one to the natural desire of the soul for union with God. It may begin with a sensual element but that is a mere preparation for genuine love, which is the love of God. The instantiations of beauty or goodness that kindle mutual desire between human beings are to be understood as reflections of the divine beauty and goodness. What we love in others rightly belongs to God; to give love to another without at the same time giving love to God, as Ficino says in a striking formulation, is ‘nothing but robbery’. Yet the true basis of active love is not the unconscious dependence of attributes on their divine source, but a conscious striving of souls together towards God in contemplative experience. It is the active search for truth in the philosophical life which is the true basis of love and forms a genuine union between lovers.”
Dr. Marguerite Connor, Department of English Language and Literature, Fu Jen Catholic University, Taiwan, puts it another way (the parentheses are hers, not mine, but the brackets are mine!):
“During the Renaissance, Plato got mingled with Christian and Eastern thought. Through this mingling we get Platonic love (which is a lot more than you probably think it means) [ah hah!]. For Plato, beauty proceeds in a series of steps from the love of one beautiful body to that of two, to the love of physical beauty in general, and ultimately to the love of that beauty "not in the likeness of a face or hands or in the forms of speech or knowledge or animal or particular thing in time or place, but beauty absolute, separate, simple, everlasting--the source and cause of all that perishing beauty of all other things."
When this scheme is Christianized by equating this ultimate beauty with the Divine Beauty of God, the Renaissance Platonic lover can move in stages through the desire [transcend, not supplant!] for his mistress, whose beauty he recognizes as an emanation of God's, to the worship of the Divine itself.”
Now, I am approaching this as a Roman Catholic, but I understand that there are many people out there who do not believe in the same ideal in which I believe. Keep this in mind, though: at their core, all human beings are seekers of something beyond their physical world - it’s ingrained in our very being. One of the ways that these philosophers synthesized different thought systems was that there were some elements common to all humans in all of them. All of the world’s cultures have some sort of ideal, whether it be Beauty to one of the Ancient Greeks, God to a Christian, Allah to a Muslim, Nirvana to a Buddhist, Enlightenment to a Confucian, or even something beyond the ordinary - something special for which to strive - to someone who does not believe in any deity. It is in the context of - and the honor of - that universal concept called “the Ideal” that I present this information.
Well! This brings us back to the definition that I mentioned at the beginning of this essay. Nowhere, in any of this, is there a requirement to exclude physical manifestations of human love from these progressions, these “ascents”. Nowhere. The main idea reflected in these philosophies is the lifelong turning and moving toward the Divine (Ficino’s Divine Ascent). In fact, the love felt for the beloved (expressed in all of its forms) can assist that ascent. The beauty of the body is not bad…it, too, is divine in origin. The problem is that at the level of the body (the farthest level from the Divine), we are susceptible to being seduced by this beauty so much that we no longer move toward the True Beauty, the Divine, the Good - much like, in the myth of Narcissus, Narcissus was lost when he tried to embrace his own reflection in the water. To resist this seduction, we develop our reason to rule over our senses - we continuously move from purely physical toward the Ideal.
So, what is a platonic relationship? Simply put, it’s a relationship in which the partners help each other to move toward God, toward the Divine, toward True Beauty, etc. Friends can be platonic (platonic friendship), lovers can be platonic (platonic love), spouses can be platonic (platonic marriage)…whatever the status, it’s a higher form of love. Now, in a platonic love relationship or marriage, physical desire certainly has its part. In fact, such desire can be the initial "germ for higher love"…but that germ needs good soil, water, fertilizer, and the warmth of the sun in order to "germinate". In terms of relationships, the “good soil” represents a good mind and soul - one that holds and safeguards love (one is not born with these; they are continuously developed). The “water” and “fertilizer” represent the attention (care) and affection that love needs to grow and thrive (not a one-time thing, but a continuous product of the will). And the “warmth of the sun” is represented by the genuine respect for the innate beauty and goodness that each person has…regardless of the physical, which fades over time (one sees this through contemplation, not just a glance). Without those things, desire can also be the germ for something else - by itself, it is probably one of the more selfish human emotions. Keep in mind that one does not have to love to desire. One does not have to care about another person to want them. One does not even have to like another person to be attracted to them.
So this, then, is the “nonsense” to which is referred in the quote from Pamela? This is how people today use the word “platonic? It seems to me that they MIS-use it, even debase it, because they have an incorrect understanding of its true meaning. What’s more, their definition is factually incorrect!
There is one thing that is so ironic, though: if those people were more platonic, they’d probably understand the concept better!
Why all this interest in the meaning of “platonic”, anyway? How did this all come about? Well, anyone who has been reading through the Harry Potter books and following closely any of the online discussions will know the answers to these questions. I know that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the books; not only for the great story that is unfolding in them, but also for the intellectual stimulation that they’ve provided. JK Rowling is very talented at holding our interest while withholding key pieces of information. Half of the fun while waiting for the next volume is reading through and analyzing the ones we’ve already read for the umpteenth time, trying to figure out genuine clues while ignoring her deceptive “red herrings”. One of the most popular (and most passionate!) lines of debate in the series is “Who will fall in love with whom?” That’s right - romance…it’s a basic human desire. No matter what the story is, there’s always a little room for relationships; and for the purposes of discussion, we call our favorite ones our “ships”!
I hereby confess that I am a dyed-in-the-wool, unabashed Harry/Hermione shipper. From the moment that I read the books, I’ve felt that they were soul mates, growing together over the past five years, learning about each other, working together toward common goals, and seeing the real value of each other’s friendship. In my humble opinion, they have a level of warm intimacy that I look forward to watching grow even more in the next two years…and beyond. But I go much farther than “canon” (evidence presented in text). My feelings about this are very philosophic, and I hope to make them clear in this essay.
Anyway, back to the “platonic” question (speaking of philosophic!). This question came about after a Q&A session with JK Rowling at the National Press Club Author’s Luncheon on 20 October 1999. It was right at the end of the session, and there was time for one final question. JK Rowling was looking through questions, trying to find one she could answer:
JKR: “No, don’t like that one. Oh, I like this one… do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are - they’re very platonic friends. But I won’t answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and sound of kids going “Aaah!”]”
Now this is one of the quotes that supposedly “sinks” our ship; and if this had been a normal conversation with one person, talking about two other people, I’d probably have accepted the common meaning. But four things stand out:
1. First of all, it was not a normal conversation; it was an interview with an author who has the motive to keep the outcome of her very popular series in the dark as she is able, while at the same time throwing clues to her audience to maintain the interest level over the decade or so that her books are being written and published.
2. Secondly, she handpicked a very specific question - “Do Harry and Hermione have a date?” - asked and answered in the present tense. Her answer “no” really doesn’t say anything, other than that Harry and Hermione don’t, in fact, have a date.
3. Thirdly, and most importantly, she has not taken any future opportunity to confirm her answer. Take the most obvious example - the Order of the Phoenix interview with Katie Couric:
Couric: “Any snogging with Hermione?”
Rowling: “Hermione and Harry?! Do you think so?”
Couric: “No I’m kidding.
Rowling: “Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there
Couric: We should probably explain that snogging means kissing.”
Rowling: “Yeah.”
Now, I’m not a journalist; but my immediate reaction was “She didn’t answer the question!” How on earth did a veteran newswoman like Katie Couric miss that one (I, personally, don’t think she “missed” it!)? Some people answer that by saying that romance is a minor, unimportant subplot of the book. More on that, later; but all I can say now, is…if it’s not that important, why would a veteran newswoman like Katie Couric ask about it in the first place? After all, she does not work for Tiger Beat magazine! In addition, if it’s not that important to the plot, what is the harm in confirming what other shippers have said has already been revealed with the National Press Club Author’s Luncheon quote?
4. Finally, “nudge, nudge, wink, wink” does not mean a thing. As to the author’s intent, please see #1.
There’s still, of course, the matter of referring to Harry and Hermione as “platonic friends”. It seems up front, doesn’t it? The thing is, the common usage of “platonic” may not necessarily apply in this case. Remember what I said about JK Rowling hiding the outcome of her stories. She seems to be a very well educated person, and she chooses her words carefully. This merits closer investigation….
First of all, let’s examine some aspects of the relationship between our two “platonic friends”. On a side note: as a member of the trio, Ron shares some of these aspects as well; and since he is the primary (in my opinion, the only real) alternative ship for Hermione, I’ll include him where applicable, for purposes of contrast.
1.Their friendship began when they were 11 years old. This is young enough that the normal influence of hormones would not have had an undue effect on their interaction; and their friendship had the chance to take root without such distractions. This can have the effect of facilitating a very strong romantic relationship in the future. Note: this also applies to Ron and Hermione.
2.Their friendship was born out of mutual regard for each other after their battle with the mountain troll. Actions that each one took (Harry acting to save her; Hermione lying to protect him) created a bond between them that had previously not been there, a bond that formed the beginning of mutual appreciation and respect. Note: Although this also applies to Ron and Hermione, it is important to point out the aspect of Harry’s character that Ron did not seem to possess. Harry thought of Hermione being alone against the mountain troll in the first place, and saw the need to go and save her, even though they were not, at the time, friends. This demonstrates recognition of her innate value as a person.
3.Harry and Hermione spend a lot of their time at Hogwarts in each other’s company. Time spent together enriches friendships and promotes familiarity and intimacy. Note: this also applies to Ron and Hermione, and it covers time spent together in pairs, in the trio, and in other groups. Now, this is an endlessly debatable topic; there is no real quantifiable comparison, and there’s no way to account for the time Ron and Hermione spend alone together, especially during the summers. That, however, falls under the aegis of “off-camera”, and should be at least alluded to in some way if it has a significant impact on plot or character development. As of Order of the Phoenix, no such off-camera relationship development between Ron and Hermione has been mentioned. Suffice to say, the trio are together enough to cement strong relationships between all three of them.
4.Harry and Hermione spend a lot of time working together and accomplishing common goals. Whether it’s helping other people (Hagrid, Sirius, Buckbeak) or each other (the tri-wizard tournament, the dementors), Harry and Hermione are generally a good team. Each tends to understand what needs to be done and to a certain extent what the other is thinking. Note: this could be said to apply to Ron and Hermione as well; I personally do not feel that Ron is as talented or useful. Although he is generally capable, his attention to detail is poor, and some of his priorities are misplaced. Again, very tough to actually quantify.
5.Harry and Hermione genuinely care about other people, and see the value in them. In this way, they both exhibit higher ideals than most of their peers. Harry risks his life to save others, imparts his knowledge to others, and stands up for and protects others. Hermione devotes her time to her house-elf cause, gets Rita Skeeter out of the way, and uses her gifts to protect the DA. Note: While I think Ron does care very much about others and sticks up for them, he needs to resolve issues of self, before they cause him problems. Envy, jealousy, concern about being poor, manifested in unnecessary hostility….while we saw less of those in Order of the Phoenix, we also saw less of Ron. Hard to say, but we do have two books remaining.
6.Harry and Hermione genuinely care about each other. It’s a special concern, one that seems to run a little deeper than their concern for others. Each notices when the other is upset, and takes steps to help, if possible. Both are loyal to each other. Both want the other to do well, and rejoice when they do. Note: this also applies to Ron; however, the issues mentioned in #5 could remain a problem.
7.Hermione is one of Harry’s best friends, and his primary female friend (I would call her his only real female friend, but that is certainly debatable). As such, she is the one female peer about whom he would have the knowledge and with whom he would have the level of comfort for a truly intimate friendship. Note: this also applies to Ron and Hermione. As to other female peers - there are only two books left, and a lot of action to portray. I personally do not feel that another woman could realistically supplant Hermione in this position. That, of course, is subject to debate.
[Please do not get me wrong: I do not hate Ron; and if this series were about Ron Weasley, I could easily see the growth of a Ron/Hermione relationship (if Ron adjusted his issues; but that’s the topic of another essay!). However, with what Harry and Hermione have together, I would find it very difficult to swallow a R/Hr pairing.]
There are certainly alternate theories and interpretations to just about everything I’ve said (not to mention outright surprises that can be written into the story); however, I would say that JK Rowling is definitely correct: Harry and Hermione are platonic friends. In fact, they appear to be the most platonic friends in the story, at least among the students. They help each other be better people - to move toward that Ideal, that Divine. As such, everything is present for a complete, powerful love that will fill Harry’s heart, and free it to do whatever he needs to do to defeat Voldemort. The only thing necessary for that love to reach completion is for Harry to fall in love:
“For a perfect love implies
Love in all capacities.”
From the poem Platonic Love, by Abraham Cowley
All capacities. Especially the kind of love that reflects the love of the Divine - the kind that comes from a soul mate. And what soul is better placed and better suited to give him that love, but Hermione?
All they need is a little spark!
116. Why JKR is headed for H/Hr by Nia
We do not know for certain-none of us-where JKR is going with the romance element. What we can do is guess, based on the flow of the narrative and, veiled clues which, BTW, are not generally evident upon a first or even a second reading. I do not debate quotes at all.
Most germane and superceding everything is the text itself. We are in the middle of a story of one remarkable boy’s journey from the last days of childhood into the first days of adulthood. In the latest interview at Albert Hall, JKR reminds us: “It's Harry's journey and it's Harry's eyes from which you see the world …” Whatever we have witnessed in the books and are yet to witness is directly related to Harry’s journey from innocence to experience, ignorance to knowledge, and idealism to realism, all through the ongoing process of disillusionment. Every event in the narrative has been included by JKR for the purpose of either providing Harry with experience or knowledge.
Shipping will directly impact Harry. Understanding love’s complexity and depth is part of attaining true adulthood. Our popular media has sold us a bogus bill of goods. In their endless quest for excitement, nearly all contemporary books, television programs (at least here in the US) and films portray love as a quest that begins and ends with one’s libido. (BTW, I know a couple of fifty-year-olds who still think like adolescents and have completely bought into this trash.)
As part of my job, I read numerous young adult novels a year. Most authors have joined this love-pattern lockstep (with personal variations) and precious few have taken the “road less traveled” to write honestly about love. In truth, this is very, very difficult because love is a slow process. Attraction is what is exciting-it is a game sometimes, sometimes a contest, sometimes a battle royale. That is why most authors end their books as the true relationship is just beginning. We do not see love’s deeper development even though characters might passionately declare “I love you” on the next to last page of the novel.
I don’t see this as the way JKR understands love-especially not with the whole veela subplot in GoF. The big questions, then must be what is JKR’s (not our) view of love-. And how will any and all relationships in the books affect Harry and his narrative?
If love is indeed Harry’s ultimate weapon, then of critical importance will be his education about the true nature of love. Since Book 1, we have seen this education in progress.
In Book 1, Harry, who had never had friends, discovers friendship and begins to see how fickle the love of the public is, when the whole of Hogwarts who cheered him one day, shuns him the next.
In Book 2, though the clever parallel stories of Hermione’s superficial adoration for Lockhart and Ginny’s lightweight crush, Harry is first exposed to the utter emptiness of this kind of relationship even though he begins one himself in the very next book. He is also introduced to the gregarious love of the Weasleys and becomes a de facto member of the clan.
In Book 3, Harry is introduced to a concrete connection to his father and deepens that blind parental adoration most of us experience until we learn our parents are human. He discovers the love of his godfather and finds compassion within himself as he refrains from killing Wormtail.
Book 4, in my opinion, begins Harry’s disillusionment. The veela and their illusionary attractiveness is a concept further developed in Book 5. Harry’s friendship with Ron develops holes, his crush, Cho, cares more for someone else, compassion, a facet of universal love, causes him to make a blunder in the second task of the TWT and a facilitates a murder at the end of the third task. His godfather is, through no choice of his own, absent from the Harry’s day-to-day crises.
Book 5 continues the theme of disillusionment in earnest. It began even before Mad-Eye Moody placed the disillusionment charm on Harry. Sirius’ love for Harry is tainted with his desire to see James within his son. Because Harry and Cho have no substance, no basis for love but the most superficial, their relationship is doomed from the start. Although Ron continues to declare his support of Harry, there are still unresolved issues from GoF that prevent Ron from being as supportive as he should be. Harry is separated from Dumbledore and this time, not just the school, but the entire wizarding world seems to have turned on him. He has lost every single support system he has ever known-except one; Hermione. Hermione has been the single constant in Harry’s life since her heartfelt declaration in the potions chamber in PS/SS.
Now why would JKR write her like that? To show the nature of true friendship? I don’t think so. Ron is, IMO, a true friend, but he is in the process of becoming his own person. True young friends tend to join at the hip in preadolescence, as they mature, however, they develop their own interests and own sense of self and tend to give each other a bit of space-this is healthy and necessary. Even though friendships might remain, one generally cannot become an individual joined at the hip with someone else. I don’t think JKR included Ron’s two references to Uranus as simply a silly joke. Uranus, in astrological references, is the planet of independent direction. Ron will not always be able to be there for Harry’s every little need, because Ron must become Ron. I believe that this is what OoP was beginning to suggest. And I do not believe that Harry’s two friends still balance him out. That was true at one time, but the children are fast becoming adults and this is not true any more-nor should it be. Harry’s friendships with both Ron and Hermione will, IMO, be redrawn in future books.
Hermione, is a much different kind of friend than Ron. Up until OoP, Ron is pretty much defined by his relationship to Harry. Hermione is singular. She is a person who has her own interests and has found a friend in Ginny outside the trio. She constantly challenges herself and is constantly making adjustments and correcting those things she sees as flaws within herself. She has always been her own person, yet her devotion to Harry is absolute. JKR has written her so that she will never need to separate from Harry to become herself. Curious. All through these five years she has known Harry she has consistently been there for him-even when he was not so lovable. I find it terribly interesting that JKR should write their relationship this way. One of my favorite quotes from Shakespeare is:
Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or Bends with the remover to remove.
O, no! It is an ever-fixed mark,
That looks on tempests and is never shaken.
It is the star to every wandering bark,
whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Sonnet 116 (CXVI)
As Flying Phoenix has so eloquently pointed out, there are numerous little interactions between the two of them that serve absolutely no purpose unless JKR is writing a burgeoning romance. JKR once complained that there was not enough room for her to include trivial details about Harry’s life at Hogwarts. If she doesn’t write filler, then we must assume that the interactions between Harry and Hermione are there for a specific purpose. If they are not necessary to define the friendship, then they must serve to delineate what would otherwise be the rather boring development of a loving relationship. If that is indeed what JKR is doing then it is quite, quite clever of her.
If love is Harry’s ultimate weapon against Voldemort, then he must understand its true nature, just as heroes in other epics must become familiar with their swords or whatever. Most people past a certain age at some point come to realize that love cannot be understood vicariously. One cannot understand it from books, movies, “Dawson’s Creek” or other peoples’ experiences. I read a post by one R/Hr shipper who justified her ship by rationalizing that by seeing Ron and Hermione finally bury the hatchet and fall in love would cause Harry to fully understand love’s power. I immediately heard the ‘wrong answer’ buzzer in my mind. First of all, this would be bad writing, pure and simple, secondly, no one could understand love that way. The only way to understand love is to experience it.
Now, please don’t assume that I don’t think R/Hr is possible. This is a work in progress, it is very possible, but IMO, in writing it JKR will simply be succumbing to popular romantic fallacies and creating another piece of meaningless drivel to add to the pile, and this would probably include any Harry/whomever relationship too, since the development time will be absent and she will have to resort to common scenarios.
The problem with a Ron and Hermione romance is there are no narrative stakes in it-it serves no logical purpose for moving the narrative forward. It does serve very well, however as a diversion from Harry and Hermione. If it is not a diversion, then there is no expositional reason to make any relationship between them any more than a note in the epilogue.
On the other hand, if Harry must truly understand the power of his (love) weapon, he must experience the true power of love for himself. The stakes for Harry’s own romantic relationship become very high indeed since both his life and the survival of the wizarding world could possibly be tied to it. Were JKR, to write Harry/Hermione, all of the boring background work is in place, the two of them already have a deep emotional investment in each other (via their friendship) and all that is necessary is the writing of the realization which could be stretched piecemeal over the remaining two books. Not only would it not take a tremendous amount of exposition, but it also would not take a great deal of explanation. She wouldn’t even have to write any kind of dating sequence.
An expositional problem at once arises if JKR uses anyone else. Hermione’s position would have to be altered. If not, then the new girl would have to acquiesce to Hermione’s advisory role, which would create a developmental nightmare. A partner is one’s compliment, or should be, the new girl would have to constantly defer to Hermione’s ideas, which would make her look incredibly ineffective and un-partner-like.
I might be able to see Ginny as one of Harry’s potential mates if she had made any kind of emotional investment in his life. She has not. [Crushes, BTW, are generally self-serving and pander to an idealized fantasy rather than the real work involved in making a relationship function] Even in the critical Grimmauld Place scene, where she could have shown real empathy, she dismisses Harry's possession out of hand after setting her own perimeters for its reality. Luna has earned Harry’s sympathy and is able to empathize with the death of Sirius, but connects with him only on the esoteric level. There is no evidence of practical simpatico which is absolutely necessary to any functional relationship.
I am mostly convinced that H/Hr is the way JKR is moving, but I am not certain where she wants to take this. To kill off Hermione too in a series full of losses seems too, too melodramatic. To have Harry and Hermione form a true partnership seems the most logical development-especially considering all the experiences they have shared as pseudo-partners. It is very, very telling that the people noted for having defied Voldemort numerous times should have been married couples-the Longbottoms and the Potters.
It is possible, of course, for JKR to write whatever she pleases, these are her books. I, however, am hoping for a young peoples’ story that finally gives love between two young folk the respect it deserves rather than serving up more hormone-riddled trash.
117. Harry tries to impress Hermione by Polaris 15
The main reason why Harry gets upset with Hermione so easily in OotP is because he has high expectations from her. As Field stated in his post, Harry needs Hermione's support; he needs 100% from Hermione. He needs to know that Hermione is behind him and agrees with what he does. In other words, not only does he need Hermione's support, but he also needs her approval. This has been demonstrated again and again in OotP.
1) Intellect/Academics
a) Career choice
|QUOTE |
|'Do' you know what you want to do after Hogwarts?" Harry asked the other two, as they left the Great Hall shortly afterward and set |
|off toward their History of Magic classroom. "Not really," said Ron slowly. "Except...well..." He looked slightly sheepish. "What?"|
|Harry urged him. "Well, it'd be cool to be an Auror," said Ron in an offhand voice. "Yeah, it would," said Harry fervently."But |
|they're, like elite," said Ron. "You've got to be really good. What about you, Hermione?" "I don't know," said Hermione. "I think |
|I'd really like to do something worthwhile." "An Auror's worthwhile!" said Harry. |
In this scene, Harry expresses his need for Hermione's approval to his career choice. Harry's language expression seems defensive, hurt, and anxious when he thought Hermione believed Aurors to be a worthless position. In a way, Harry thrives on Hermione's praise and encouragement, while feeling the need to make Hermione proud.
School work
|QUOTE |
|Harry realized that Hermione was looking sideways to see what grade he had received; he slid his moonstone essay back into his bag |
|as quickly as possible, feeling that he would rather keep that information private. -------------- Harry laughed again, though he |
|was not sure whether or not George was joking. He imagined trying to conceal from Hermione that he had received T's in all his |
|O.W.L.s and immediately resolved to work harder from now on. |
For the first time, Harry expresses his shame and disappointment in receiving bad grades on his school work. What is more interesting is the fact that he resolved to work harder for Hermione. In other words, he doesn't want Hermione to be disappointed in him or look down upon him. He feels the need to be Hermione's equal; since he is already her equal in wits and arguably logic, Harry's only obstacle remains to be intelligence, or information. Again, in this scene, Harry display his insecurities regarding his school work as well as his determination to make Hermione proud.
c) Extracurriculars (DA)
|QUOTE |
|"That's an idea." (Ron) "What's an idea?" said Harry. "You," said Ron. "Teaching us to do it." "But..." Harry was grinning now, sure|
|the pair of them were pulling his leg. "But I'm not a teacher, I can't--" "Harry, you're the best in the year at Defense Against |
|Dark Arts," said Hermione. "Me?" said Harry, now grinning more broadly than ever. "No I'm not, you've beaten me in every test--" |
This scene is significant in demonstrating Harry's reaction to Hermione's praise. Initially, Harry began grinning as the prospect of both of his best friends 'pulling his leg', however, after Hermione made her "you're the best" statement, Harry's expression changed to 'grinning more broadly than ever' from Hermione's one simple praise. This shows that Harry has distinguished his need of approval and admiration from Hermione than from Ron.
2) Heroic actions
Harry also expects praise from Hermione for his heroic actions. His noble, albeit superflous save of Gabrielle is the most notable example. In GoF, after Harry climbed ashore, Hermione praised him and cheered him vociferously, which later caused the jealousy of Viktor Krum. However, in OotP, Hermione expresses her concern for Harry's heroic actions as being too heroic to a point where it jeopardizes Harry's life.
|QUOTE |
|"You..This isn't a criticsm, Harry! But you do...sort of...I mean-don't you think you've got a bit of a-a-saving-people-thing?" she |
|said. He glared at her. "And what's that supposed to mean, a 'saving-people-thing'?' "Well...you..." She looked more apprehensive |
|than ever. "I mean...last year, for instance...in the lake...during the Tournament...you shouldn't have...I mean, you didn't need to|
|save that little Delacour girl....You got a bit...carried away..." A wave of hot, prickly anger swept Harry's body-how could she |
|remind him of that blunder now?" |
Hermione stated very clearly in the beginning that she isn't trying to criticize Harry; yet even the tiniest hint of disapproval can cause Harry 'a wave of hot, prickly anger' to sweep through his body. Harry, apparently, has subconsciously depended on Hermione and expected Hermione to approve of his doings.
|QUOTE |
|"Everyone thought it was a wonderful thing to do-" (Hermione) "That's funny," said Harry through his gritted teech, because I |
|definitely remember Ron saying I'd wasted time acting the hero....is that what you think this is? You reckon I want to act the hero |
|again?" |
This scene directly follows the last quotation; it this passage, the readers are able to understand why Harry is so angry at Hermione. The fact is, it doesn't matter what everyone else thought about his heroic actions. It doesn't matter that they gave him 45 out of 50 for his efforts (50 without Karksoff) It doesn't even matter what Ron thought; whether Ron believe his actions were superflous didn't effect Harry in the least. There is no indication of Harry confronting Ron for dismissing his heroic actions. However, it did matter what Hermione thought of his actions. This passage demonstrates Harry's dependence of Hermione's praise and acknowledgement.
Conclusion: Harry has been shown the desire to impress the girl he is interested in. In OotP, we have be shown instances where Harry wishes to appear cool, popular and funny with Cho. Harry has also expressed his joy when Cho praised him. "The fact that Cho had just praised him made it much, much harder for him to say the thing he had sworn to himself he would tell them." (343 OotP). The point is however, Harry tries to impress Cho only by trying to be someone he is not. He tries to impress Cho by creating another character who is not Harry Potter. Subconsciously however, Harry has created the need for Hermione's approval and praise. He has been trying to impress Hermione unknowingly throughout OotP. The difference between his attempts to impress Cho and his efforts to impress Hermione is the reaction at the possiblity of failing or disappointing them. With Cho, Harry feels embarrassed (Stinksap) or awkward (RD kissing in tea house) when he couldn't meet Cho's standards; however, which Hermione, Harry rages and becomes furious at the hint of disapproval. The reason is very simple: with Cho, Harry disappointed her with the fake image he had tried to create; however, with Hermione, whom truly understands him and sees him for himself, Harry would disappoint her not with a fake identity, but with his true self.
118. H/Hr love, flying and quidditch updated by Turambar
THEORY UPDATED
This is my re-worked flying/love theory which consists of five related essays.
Thanks to Perdita, Hawk 92, Flying Phoenix (Phoenix Writer), Grace Granger, Nia, EricaM, Evaluna and Mar Dhea. Thanks especially to Nia for pointing out some ommissions from the first theory and giving me suggestions on how to re-work it and to Grace for suggestions.
INTRODUCTION
This essay is in five parts under two main sections and has three objectives.
It aims to look at Harry and Hermione in relation to flying in the HP series and its symbolic link to love.
I'm also looking at its link to their character development which I feel has a more subtle tie-in to the importance of love in the series. At the end of OOTP Dumbledore tells Harry that he has a power (love) that Voldemort does not and it is this power that could defeat the Dark Lord. Harry now has to learn about that power.
Thirdly, Hermione's attitudes to flying and to quidditch and her reactions to games also offer us clues about her relationships with Harry, Ron and Viktor.
To those people who say there is no metaphorical connection between love and flying in the HP series I would say look at the overall story of this series and JKR's extensive use of foreshadowing and symbolism in it. We are not dealing with a realistic, everyday world or mundane situation. The basic concept is of a boy with the power (through love) to vanquish an evil wizard threatening the world.
The theory breaks down into:
SYMBOLISM
Part1: Symbolic Harmony: an overall look at J.K. Rowling's use of symbolism
Part2: Seeking and Symbolism: specific flying symbolism
Part3: The Firebolt: how it relates to Harry and Hermione.
CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT
Part4: Hermione and Flying
Part5: Hermione, Harry and quidditch games: what we learn about their relationship
Part 1) SYMBOLIC HARMONY
A thorough sense of Rowling's use of symbolism and especially the way she
1) ties Harry and Hermione together and
2) binds them in with the series' themes of love and harmony
is needed before I concentrate on love and flying. (There are references to posts on earlier love threads at COS Forums).
1) The houses
The need for harmony between the houses has been an underlying theme that gained more prominence in OOTP.
The Sorting Hat in its song in OOTP says the four houses haven't been united since Salazar Slytherin left the school and makes a plea for unity as the school is under threat from external forces. This will most likely become more important in the last two books and one would think ultimately harmony could only occur once the influence of Voldemort is removed.
It is an essential theme of the series and clearly related to Harry's mission, as outlined by Dumbledore, to defeat Voldemort with the power he has (love) which Voldemort lacks.
A key piece of the symbolic jigsaw surrounding Harry and Hermione fell into place when in OOTP there was this exchange between Terry Boot and Hermione:
(OOTP P353) "How come you're not in Ravenclaw?" he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. "With brains like yours?"
"Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my sorting," said Hermione brightly, "but it decided on Gryffindor in the end."
We immediately get a parallel there with Harry.
The Sorting Hat saw the qualities of Slytherin (from Voldemort) in Harry and considered putting him in Slytherin. Harry, however, asked not to be put in Sytherin and the hat decided to put him in Gryffindor.
With Hermione, either the Sorting Hat considered her bravery to out-weigh her formidable intelligence or Hermione asked to be put in Gryffindor, which is a possibility as Gryffindor was her preference:
(PS P79) "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad."
Note: Bravery wins out over intelligence to Hermione's mind despite her obvious academic drive. Bravery is a key characteristic that ties Harry with Viktor (GOF P103) "He was very brave, wasn't he?" and (as far as she knew, going by his book exploits) Lockhart.
Brains and talent are close behind: (COS P123) "Oh yes," said Hermione eagerly. "So clever, the way you [Lockhart] trapped that last one with the tea strainer."
So between them Harry and Hermione symbolically cover through the qualities within them, the qualities of the three main Hogwarts houses: Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Slytherin. Hufflepuff is the lesser of the houses. The Sorting Hat says the other house leaders had the pick of the students and Hufflepuff taught "the rest". However, Harry and Hermione have Hufflepuff's chief characteristic - loyalty - in abundance. They represent all the houses.
2) House harmony, griffins and planets
According to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter, the name Gryffindor means "golden griffin" in French. The house colours are red and gold and its symbol is a golden lion. A triangle of gold?
The house's chief virtues are bravery, daring.
Harry's wand contains a phoenix feather from Fawkes inside, whose plummage is also red and gold.
Rather in the way Harry's patronus is a spirit of his animagus father's stag, Harry has the essence of Gryffindor inside him:
When he gets his wand (PS P65) "a stream of red and gold sparks shot from the end like a firework."
When he cleans his wand (GOF P266) "several gold sparks shot out the end of it."
In COS, when fighting the basilisk of Slytherin, Gryffindor's one time friend and subsequent main rival, Harry pulls Gryffindor's sword out of the Sorting Hat - which also once was Gryffindor's hat (GOF P157).
When Harry is duelling with Voldemort (whose wand also contains a Fawkes feather), Harry's wand sends out a red light and Voldemort's wand green. Between the colours is a band of light (GOF P575) "bright, deep gold."
And in (OOTP P35) "Fine!" yelled Harry, and in his temper, red and gold sparks shot out of the end of his wand."
Now we start to see layers of symbolism to thicken the fabric.
Harry's birth sign is the Fire sign of Leo, ruled by the Sun and with the symbol of a lion.
Mar Dhea said in a post: "the Sun is the basis of all life, and the star attraction of the Solar System. Harry is the hope of wizardkind."
According to the Zodical Circle of Love:
"The sun rules it [Leo], associated with the god Apollo whom they called "the Giver of Light." He was the great mythological leader and oracle of the arts, the one who perfected the lyre invented by Mercury. He strangled the python of evil, signifying Light conquering darkness , the epitome of Leo at its highest."
Hermione's birth sign is the Earth sign of Virgo, ruled by Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun.
Mar Dhea said: "Mercury was the Messenger of the Gods - and Mercury is the planet that, allegedly, rules the way in which we operate and generally communicate." Hermione's name is also the female version of Hermes, also the messenger of the gods.
Flying Phoenix said that: "Mercury was given two names by the Greeks: Apollo for its apparition as a morning star and Hermes as an evening star. Greek astronomers knew, however, that the two names referred to the same body. Mercury acts to process large volumes of information within our essential being - as represented by the sun."
Note: The only birth dates referred to in the books - in July and September - are Harry and Hermione's. We are meant to find these birth clues. And note also Hermione's close ties to the Sun (Harry).
Slytherin is represented by a silver serpent on a green background.
Ravenclaw's symbol is an eagle (not a raven).
Its colours are a blue background and a bronze eagle and its chief virtues are intelligence and wisdom.
The Hufflepuff background colour is yellow with a black badger as its earthy symbol.
Harry and Hermione both have elements of the land (lion) and Hermione has an Earth birth sign.
A significant piece of symbolism that ties Harry and Hermione together is this: The lion (symbol of Grffindor) and the eagle (symbol of Ravenclaw) are the two beasts which make up the griffin.
The griffin has the head, beak and wings of an eagle, the body of a lion and occasionally the tail of a serpent or scorpion.
So together, in partnership, Harry and Hermione symbolically ARE a griffin and they combine all the qualities of the four houses.
Unsurprisingly, JKR has made Hermione Harry's most able partner and kept Ron largely as a figure of emotional support. In a structural sense, the trio are kept as a tight unit until book four and no other, potentially rival, female character has had close dealings with Harry - including his crush Cho - until book five. This has meant Harry and Hermione have been able to develop a close relationship without distractions. Hermione's relationship with Harry is on a completely different level to Luna and Ginny's.
The obvious question is how can we be sure the Ravenclaw symbolism relates to Hermione and not Cho, Luna or another Ravenclaw?
The answer lies in further examination of clues JKR has laid.
According to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins:
"became a symbol of the dual nature (divine and human) of Jesus Christ precisely because of its mastery of earth and sky. The solar associations of both the eagle and lion favoured this positive reading. The griffin became the adversary of serpents and basilisks."
Note that in COS Harry and Hermione jointly solved the Chamber of Secrets mystery which involved Tom Riddle, the heir of Slytherin (snake symbol, parseltongue) and a basilisk.
Hermione came up with the idea for and creation of the Polyjuice potion which yielded key clues. There's even a scene where Harry diverts attention while Hermione steals ingredients for it. She also made the breakthrough discovery that the monster in the chamber was a basilisk. Harry is the one who sees the note she leaves. Then Harry works out the puzzle from the clues she left him. He kills the basilisk. He gets rid of Riddle.
Note: JKR is careful to keep Ron's involvement confined to mostly emotional support. He does take part in several scenes to do with the chamber and a few trio debates, but she keeps the lion's share of the key moments for Harry and Hermione, to fit with the symbolism.
Notice that Hermione has two references to flight - the eagle and the winged messenger - in her symbolic make-up whereas Harry is earth-bound with his lions and snakes. Hermione provides the symbolic 'mastery of the sky'.
JKR also makes Hermione the first and only person in Harry's charms class in PS to make an object - note, a feather - fly. And this occurs on the day that Harry and Ron save Hermione from a troll and the trio become friends.
Yet, in reality, Harry is the master flyer and Hermione the one who needs help to leave the ground. Hermione does not even own a broom. Harry is the more impulsive, daring character, Hermione the more reasoned and analytical.
But what JKR has been doing over the past two books is to bring them slowly closer together and slowly more alike. Hermione is lightening up, becoming more confident, becoming better at the practical DADA that Harry excells at. Harry is taking more notice of Hermione's opinions and starting to become more serious about study. Had Hermione not become friends with the boys in PS, she could have turned out like Percy. They have influenced each other.
Back to griffins:
According to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins:
are known for "vigilance, courage and strength."
Apollo rode one. Yet another reference to Apollo in relation to griffins and H/Hr.
On the sulphur/mercury symbolism:
An online dictionary, says Sulphur is:
"A pale yellow nonmetallic element occurring widely in nature in several free and combined allotropic forms. It is used in black gunpowder, rubber vulcanization....native in volcanic regions ...It burns with a blue flame"
Remember, Harry's planetary associations are with fire and the Sun.
Note: The gunpowder reference is interesting because the name of Fawkes the phoenix immediately suggests Guy Fawkes of gunpowder plot fame.
Evaluna notes: "Vulcan, the god of Fire, was black-haired, morose, possessed his own esoteric knowledge of mining and metalworking, and was often depicted as lame. He is the hidden fire in the mountain, whilst Apollo was the god of the "fire in the open sky", the sun. ... Interestingly, Harry has also symbolically been rendered "lame" by the scar on his forehead, just for starters. Harry has been rendered figuratively lame in many other ways, as well [orphaned, unloved, despised, marked, and so forth]. Harry has more compelling ties, through fire, to both Apollo/Sun [Harry's own sign, a fire sign] and Vulcan/Mars [another fire sign]. Vulcan is the brother of Mars (Ares), the god of War, and both are linked to the sun sign of Aries[fire]/ruling planet Mars. However, it was Vulcan and Apollo in mythology that had the tense, competitive, and symbiotic relationship -- each being the opposite of the other: one representing fire and light, the other, fire and darkness. One of Harry's life lessons may be to overcome the false dualism and unify these opposing forces within himself. One more thing -- Vulcan as blacksmith to the gods, forged the lightning bolts of Jupiter, or Zeus.
"The sulphur element for Harry [Harry is linked to Vulcan, god of fire [as is fire sign], though Harry is linked to Apollo as well] - side note: again, Viktor appears to have the same links...and the mercury element for Hermione [her ruling planet] were considered by alchemists to be the two fundamental metals of existence, such that when combined with the appropriate esoteric 'magic' [love, in our case], produced gold, considered to be the most precious of substances, with immutable worth!"
According to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter griffins "originated in India where they guarded huge treasures of gold" and in Greece "griffins guarded the gold of Hyperborea - a mythical land of perpetual sunshine and happiness beyond the north wind."
So we have astrological links between Harry and Hermione (the sun, Apollo, griffins), and links involving producing (alchemy, astrological) gold and guarding gold (griffins). More golden symbolism.
The Zodical Circle of Love sees an even closer association between H/Hr through the Sun/Mercury/Vulcan symbolism:
"Mercury is known as the planetary ruler [of Virgo], while some question the possibility of a planet between the sun and Mercury that is invisible due to its nearness to the sun. They call it Vulcan. The mythical god. Vulcan, the smith of Olympus, is certainly a graphic symbol of Virgoan service and craftsmanship, which is a great expression of God’s Love for the welfare of His children. Yet, Mercury is evident in the libraries, publications, critical and scientific writings and sales ability of the sign, all of which are within the orb of Virgoan influence."
3) Hippogriffs
The griffin combines with a horse to make the hippogriff which is half horse, half bird. (POA P87) "They had the bodies, hind legs and tails of horses, but the front legs, wings and beaks of what seemed to be giant eagles."
Harry and Hermione ride on the hippogriff Buckbeak. The hippogriff is a symbol of love.
Why is Buckbeak a symbol of love and not impossible love?
In horse breeding terms let's say the griffin is the sire and the horse is the dam. The coming together of those two creatures represents a triumph over impossibility. Why? Because the idea of a griffin and a horse mating is considered impossible.
But, they DO get together - the impossible becomes possible, it becomes reality.
The offspring of that mating (love) is the hippogriff - the living embodiment of 'impossible' love being made possible.
Therefore, the hippogriff, the second generation, is a symbol of love, born of difficult beginnings. The fact that it is a symbol of love is the essence of the hippogriff's identity. That has to be the reason for JKR using this creature, as opposed to a winged horse for instance.
In OOTP there are two clues showing Harry and Hermione being distracted from love by war.
During the OWL astronomy exam Harry can't concentrate on Venus (love) because of the fight at Hagrid’s hut, and then mislabels Mars (war) as Venus.
(OOTP P631) ’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’
EricaM notes: "Eihwaz, the rune of defence, is associated with the Yew tree (as in Voldies wand wood) and looks remarkably like a 'lightning' bolt - the shape of Harry's scar. Ehwaz, the rune for partnership also has keywords trust and loyalty."
Nia notes: "The symbol for partnership, ehwaz which Hermione mistook for defense in her OoP Runes OWL. The symbolic image of this rune is a horse. It’s esoteric meaning harmony, teamwork, trust, loyalty. An ideal marriage or partnership. I find it very telling that JKR should mate griffins with horses and I think the symbolic use here is very well thought out indeed and very well tied in with later developments."
In GOF, JKR writes Harry using his Firebolt to fly past a black dragon to collect a golden egg. But he is only able to use his Firebolt once Hermione has taught him how to summon it.
The symbolism between Harry and Hermione points to partnership and love between them. But I also think it offers some hope that both may survive in the end. The fact that both together symbolise the griffin and their partnership may carry the symbol of a horse, suggests offspring, the hippogriff symbol of love. We know what can come of that combination, it has already been shown to us.
There is also the blood theme to consider. The major halfblood and mudblood enemies of Voldemort and the Malfoys coming together: a child of that [hated] union would be symbolic of love overcoming the 'impossible'.
There is also the alchemy of sulphur and mercury combinging to 'produce' gold: perhaps a reference to more than just love but a child of that love.
Perhaps if there is to be an heir of Gryffindor, it may be Harry and Hermione's child rather Harry himself. A child would also symbolically embody the collective qualities of the four houses.
Another point: JKR has gone some way towards giving Ron what he wanted in the Mirror of Erised: head boy, quidditch captain, holding the house and quidditch cups. In OOTP Ron is made prefect and is hailed a hero after Gryffindor wins the quidditch cup. Perhaps Harry will get what he wanted: a family.
There is another reference to hippogriffs which is probably significance. In GOF, Harry and Ron are making up predictions:
(GOF P196) "I [Harry] will be in danger of - er - burns."
"OK, Tuesday, I'll [Ron] erm..."
"Lose a treasured possession."
"Good one," said Ron..."Because of ...erm...Mercury. Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?"
"Yeah...cool..." said Harry. "Because...Venus is in the 12th house."
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
....."I'd [Ron] better change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff."
Because this occurs before Harry's falling out with Ron in GOF it's tempting to see it as foreshadowing of that. But it's much more likely a reference to a future trio love triangle spat. It's hard to know what Ron's "treasured possession" is - his heart? - but he loses it because of Hermione (Mercury being the planet that rules her star sign). We get the reference to conflict with Harry being betrayed by a friend and then two references to love - Venus and the Hippogriff. Ron comes off worst in a fight and is trampled by love.
4) General use of symbolism
I'm first going to look at three times of the year and key events that happen in Harry's life to give an idea of JKR's extensive use of symbolism and foreshadowing.
His birthday:
In PS 10 years after he left it, Hagrid takes him back to the wizarding world and away from the Dursleys; in COS Ron breaks him out of his 'jail' at the Dursleys; in POA Hermione gives him the broomstick servicing kit.
Halloween:
As FP has noted, Harry was probably conceived on Halloween, his parents died at the hand of Voldemort on Halloween and 10 years later Harry jumped on a troll let in by an agent of Voldemort and became friends with Hermione. Yes, Ron did as well but he was reluctant to go to Hermione's aid and was grudging about her lying to help them out.
Christmas:
In PS Harry is given his father's invisibility cloak by Dumbledore and uses it to see his family in the Mirror of Erised (desire) which is symbolic of his own desire for a family/love; in COS they take the polyjuice potion and he sees Hermione's face covered in fur. The fact that this image returns in OOTP as one of his bad memories suggests it is important in some way.
In POA Harry is given the Firebolt by his godfather, Sirius, and Hermione is the catalyst for it to be taken away on the same day to be checked for jinxes. This is also the day that Ron and Harry get up from the table together and Trelawney says it's unlucky.
In GOF Sirius gives Harry a knife which Harry says will "open any lock". It melts in OOTP when Harry tries to open the Love Room.
At the Yule Ball, Harry's jaw drops at the sight of Hermione and he reassesses his opinion of her attractiveness, Ron and Hermione fight, Hermione goes to the ball with Viktor. Ron's extra interest in Hermione starts here; Ginny is offered (by Ron) the chance to go with Harry and declines because she has accepted Neville, Harry isn't interested - Harry and Hermione are attracted to Cho and Viktor.
Note: At the end of OOTP Ron again 'offers' Ginny to Harry and this time neither are interested.
Also JKR famously said everyone is in love with the wrong people in GOF: since Neville and Ginny were each other's second choice after Hermione and Harry, and given Ginny and Neville's development in OOTP that could be significant. Given JKR's comment about Ron aiming too high in asking Fleur, could Neville and Ginny have been aiming too high?
In OOTP Hermione draws Harry out of Buckbeak's room. This is not strictly on Christmas day but it is over Christmas at Sirius' house and the references to Christmas are all around.
Note: The moment Harry feels better "his heart swelled with happiness and he felt like joining in as they heard Sirius tramping past their door towards Buckbeak's room, singing God Rest Ye, Merry Hippogriffs at the top of his voice." So again we get that recurring theme of Harry/Hermione, Buckbeak and Sirius.
There is also an obvious connection between Harry and house elves. When we first meet Harry in PS he is essentially the Dursley's house elf: enslaved, kept in the cupboard under the stairs, punished frequently, half-starved, made to work like a dog, trapped in rooms and denied any affection. To nail home the symbolism JKR even has Kreacher's 'bedroom' "under the boiler in that cupboard off the kitchen." And who is the person who is passionate about helping house elves? Harry even notices that when Hermione talks about DADA leading up to asking Harry to teach herself and Ron "her face was suddenly alight with the kind of fervour that SPEW usually inspired in her." Perdita makes the point that JKR could be setting the scene for a rebellion by house elves. If that's the case they will have a hero (Harry) and a champion (Hermione).
5) The ties that bind Sirius, Harry and Hermione
One of the strongest triangles in the series is one involving Sirius, Harry and Hermione. These are quite detailed patterns but to briefly summarise-
Buckbeak:
They are the only three to fly on him, including together. Hermione draws Harry out of Buckbeak's room at Christmas in OOTP. Sirius is tending to Buckbeak when Harry tries to find out if Sirius is at home.
Crookshanks:
In POA CS establishes a relationship with Sirius, even jumping on his chest to protect him when Harry thinks about killing Sirius. There are other references to CS's love for Sirius such as trying to pat Sirius' head in the flames in OOTP. At the end of POA Ron showed Pig to CS signifying that they had made up, but CS has had nothing to do with Ron in two whole books since. Instead there's been several scenes showing how CS loves Harry. (OOTP P78) "It was only Crookshanks, Hermione's bandy-legged ginger cat, who wound himself once around Harry's legs, purring, then jumped on to Sirius' lap and curled up."
The Firebolt:
A Christmas present from Sirius and Harry's most precious possession next to Hedwig (a birthday present from Hagrid). One of the first things Harry does when he gets it is try to use the broomstick servicing kit Hermione gave him for his birthday on it. Hermione has the Firebolt taken away for testing before Harry has a chance to fly on it. Harry has a symbolic dream in OOTP involving Cho, Hermione and the Firebolt.
There are other links:
1) Harry saves himself, Hermione and Sirius from the dementors.
2) Harry is severely tempted by the black veil and is pulled back, 'saved', by Hermione, Sirius goes through it.
3) Dolohov uses or attempts to use the same spell on Harry, Hermione and Sirius.
4) The house elves are significant to all three: Harry has a special relationship with Dobby and sets him free, Sirius is the master of Kreacher who plays a significant part in Sirius' downfall. Kreacher lives in a cupboard as Harry once did. Hermione is the house elves' champion.
5) Up until OOTP only Harry, Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius said Voldemort's name. In OOTP, the book where Sirius passes on, Hermione begins to say Voldemort's name. So the list is now Harry, Dumbledore, Lupin and Hermione.
I think JKR's intent with these links is to show Harry passing from the parental care of his godfather (representing his parents/family) to the care of his future partner. Sirius is the first person Harry has got to know whom he knows he loves as a parent/brother figure.
It's hard to see any other point to these links.
There's quite a few references in OOTP to Harry growing up, Harry and Hermione becoming leaders, Harry recognising the limits to his relationship with the Weasleys, Hermione leaving her parents to come to Harry's aid.
Part 2) SEEKING AND SYMBOLISM
1) Introduction to love and flying
A symbolic connection between flying and love as related to Harry in the HP books cannot be definately proved but it is hinted at strongly.
In (OOTP743 The Lost Prophecy) Dumbledore describes the power that Harry has that marks him out as "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord."
"It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all...he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
Harry is famous in the wizarding world for mysteriously causing the downfall of Voldemort the first time, but his parents sacrificed themselves to save him and their sacrifice played a part in that victory. We know that Harry is particularly good at DADA - the one subject where he betters Hermione. But that has been a gradual learning process: it isn't something that he was instinctively, immediately good at. He isn't as generally academically outstanding as Hermione.
What is the one natural gift he has that is so special it corresponds to the idea of him having a special power no one else - including Dumbledore - has to such an extent, to be able to defeat Voldemort? Harry is the (POA P15) "youngest person in a century to be picked for one of the Hogwarts house [quidditch] teams."
(PS P111) "And in a rush of fierce joy he realised he had found something he could do without being taught, this was easy, this was wonderful."
(POA P188) "It was better than he'd ever dreamed. The Firebolt turned with the lightest touch; it seemed to obey his thoughts rather than his grip."
(GOF P309) "He swung his leg over the broom, and kicked off from the ground. And a second later, something miraculous happened. As he soared upwards, as the wind rushed through his hair...he realised that he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear. He was back where he belonged."
(OOTP P488) "It seemed to Harry that Umbridge was steadily depriving him of everything that made his life at Hogwarts worth living: visits to Hagrid's house, letters from Sirius, his Firebolt and quidditch."
The flying/love theory is tied specifically to Harry because he has this special gift and this is his story.
Harry has the ability both to love - a generous heart - and to attract others' hearts. He's also famous, a symbol of hope to the community, the next major benevolent wizard in waiting. And as outlined above, Harry's partnership with Hermione is essential to the structure and themes of the series.
But the theory also draws in other people who have a romantic/love connection to Harry and Hermione, namely Sirius, Cho, Cedric and Viktor.
Harry's relationship ties with Hermione and Sirius are expressed through Buckbeak and the Firebolt.
Harry's first broom I see as representing his first crush on Cho and its demise foreshadows the breaking of that relationship.
Cedric and Viktor, like Harry, are fellow quidditch seekers and triwizard champions connected with Harry through Cho and Hermione.
Seeking and the snitch are obviously key components of the symbolism.
The snitch, which the seeker has to capture, is a golden ball with wings described (PS P125) as "hard to catch because it's so fast and difficult to see."
It is elusive to obtain, like love. Harry is of course very good at catching the snitch which equates to what Dumbledore says, as I mentioned, about Harry having "the power held within that [love] room that you possess in such quantities."
Evidence of JKR using the snitch as a symbol for love comes in this scene between Harry and Cho:
(OOTP P495) Amazing, how much more difficult it was to extend his arm 12 inches and touch her hand than it was to snatch a speeding snitch from midair...But just as he moved his hand forwards, Cho took hers off the table.
Harry and Cho are not in tune, they are going in different directions. JKR frequently uses the number 12, perhaps as a symbol of harmony and wholeness.
There's also a scene in (OOTP P566) where Harry's father James "had drawn a snitch and was now tracing the letters 'L.E.'"
This most likely refers to Lily Evans, Harry's mother, and the image recalls pictures of hearts drawn next to the names or initials of someone the drawer is attracted to. The snitch takes the place of the heart. James, like Harry, was a quidditch cup winner and a talented flier.
2) Presents
Several of Hermione's presents to Harry are linked to quidditch/flying. Some would say this is because Harry is very interested in quidditch and Hermione knows this. (So is Ron and the only two presents from her to him we know about are non-quidditch presents: sweets in PS and the homework diary in OOTP.)
PS: "She had also lent him Quidditch Through the Ages, which turned out to be a very interesting read."
COS: A luxury eagle-feather quill
POA: A broomstick servicing kit. "Knowing Hermione, he was sure it would be a large book full of very difficult spells - but it wasn't. His heart gave a huge bound as he ripped back the sleek black leather case with silver words stamped accross it: Broomstick servicing kit."
Note: Harry's reactions to Cho are mostly confind to his stomach.
And "Harry got through the next three days by forcing himself to think about his Handbook of Do it Yourself Broomcare whenever Aunt Marge stared at him."
GOF: "Hermione had given Harry a book called Quidditch Teams of Britain and Ireland." Also in GOF JKR reminds the reader that it was Hermione who gave the broomstick kit to Harry.
There's another curious present in GOF - from Dobby. Harry is given socks at Christmas and he wears those socks to the Yule Ball. "The left sock was bright red and had a pattern of broomsticks upon it; the right sock was green with a pattern of snitches."
3) Brooms
JKR is careful to keep the different models of brooms mostly separate between different people, rather like how she keeps Ron away from the Buckbeak symbolism. It's her way of not contaminating symbolism.
Harry has a Nimbus 2000 and then a Firebolt; Draco a Comet 2 60 at home, a Nimbus 2001 at school; Cho a Comet 2 60; the rest of the Ravenclaws are on Cleensweep 7s. Fred and George have Cleensweep Fives and in OOTP Ron says the twins have never had new brooms. Ron has a Shooting Star but gets a new model Cleensweep in OOTP. I can't find a reference to what Ginny rides but she's probably on a school broom since she learnt on her brothers' brooms and Harry says (OOTP P671) "Ron's the only one with a broomstick that isn't being guarded by a security troll."
JKR makes a distinction between Harry's make of Nimbus (2000) and Draco's (2001). Wood suggests Harry get a broom like Draco's when his Nimbus is smashed and Harry says "I'm not buying anything Malfoy thinks is good."
Possibly there is some significance to the fact that Ron gets his first, new, broom of his own - as in different from a Weasley family broom or a school broom - just before he meets Luna on the train. But it's hard to know.
Note: JKR may be employing the train romanticism from PS again. Harry, Hermione and Ron met on a train from Kings Cross. JKR's parents met on a train from King's Cross. Since we don't know for sure if JKR is going to put Ron with Luna, the OOTP train symbolism could apply to Harry/Luna/Ron).
4) Viktor Krum
Viktor gets one of the best introductions a character could hope for: he's presented as a star international athlete at a world cup, he catches the snitch after a spectacular dive while bravely contending with the pain of a broken, bloodied nose.
Harry notes that "Krum was the most exciting player on the pitch" and Hermione says "he was very brave, wasn't he?".
But see my comment later about the comparison between Harry in the POA match with Slytherin and Viktor at the QWC.
And from then on in GOF we see Harry getting the better of Viktor.
Despite his quidditch background, Krum doesn't think to use his flying ability to get past the dragon in the First Task. Harry ties with him for the lead in the tournament but then moves ahead after the Second Task. Harry shows himself to be braver than Viktor when Crouch appears and more heroic during the Second Task, and whereas Harry shows an ability to fight off the imperius curse, Krum succumbs to it during the third task.
Krum is drawn as a 'shadow' Harry, they have a great deal in common. They look alike - dark-haired, a thin, athletic build - they are both brilliant, brave qudditch seekers. They are both famous, with a dislike of fame. They are both reserved, at times secretive, slightly loner personalities. And yes, in OOTP there's a fair bit of Krum's "grouchy git" persona to be seen in Harry. There are also a couple of quidditch game parallels between them as I'll mention.
Harry measures himself against Viktor:
(GOF P479) "Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was, elaborated....He couldn't quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous international quidditch player. It was as though the 18-year-old Krum thought he, Harry; was an equal - a real rival -..."You fly very well. I vos votching at the first task." "Thanks," said Harry, grinning broadly and suddenly feeling much taller himself."
Just to enlarge upon my point about Harry and Krum being athletic: being athletic and physical has nothing to do with size and build. Football players tend to be medium build and thin. They look different from rugby props who look different from rugby locks who look different from 100m sprinters who look different from marathon runners who look different from swimmers. Harry and Krum are gifted sportsmen. Harry has consistently been the physical hero in the series, jumping on the troll, pulling Bulstrode off Hermione, fighting the basilisk etc. Very different from Ron. Ron even complains about having to do ordinary Muggle cleaning for detention in COS whereas Harry says he'd rather do it because he's had "loads of practice." Ron later complains that his "muscles have all seized up."
Having written Krum as a 'shadow' Harry, JKR has this character notice and single out Hermione as someone special. She writes Hermione being attracted to him and discovering that he's nice, rather humble, someone she can talk to and mature underneath the surly exterior. She writes this 'shadow' Harry asking Hermione to a Christmas day ball and then has another 'shadow' Harry, Neville, asking Hermione as well. (Neville of course being linked to Harry through the prophesy, having parents in the Order and carrying the same astrological symbolism).
JKR tells us that Krum "never felt this way about any other girl" but that Hermione babbles about Harry to Krum and that she's far more excited about how Harry is performing in the Triwizard Tournament than Viktor. JKR shows Viktor being suspicious and jealous of Harry and Hermione's relationship and then carries on the theme with Cho in OOTP.
What JKR demonstrates is
1) what looks and qualities Hermione is attracted to
2) the fact that these things make Krum uncannily similar to Harry and very disimilar to Ron
3) this similar yet older version of Harry recognises the special qualities of Hermione
4) Hermione prefers Harry to Viktor.
On the question of common looks, Hermione makes a comment that Krum isn't that good-looking early on in GOF. She made that comment out of irritation at all the groupies surrounding Krum, before he asked her to the ball. Apart from her comment at the QWC about him being brave, her attitude to Krum was ALL negative before he approached her. After that this was the guy she was "deep in talk" with at the ball, the guy she enjoyed dancing with, the guy she wrote a long letter to in OOTP. His personality is his chief attraction to her and obviously his looks are no longer an issue.
5) Seekers for love
It certainly can't be an accident that three people who have been connected in some way to Harry's romantic life have been quidditch seekers:
Cho, Harry's first 'love', who became jealous of Harry's relationship with Hermione, a Ravenclaw seeker.
Cedric, Cho's boyfriend, who beat Harry on and off the field but then died, a Hufflepuff seeker
Viktor, Hermione's first boyfriend/friend, who became jealous of her relationship with Harry, an international quidditch seeker and star
As we see there, JKR deliberately mirrors Viktor's suspicion and jealousy in GOF with Cho's in OOTP.
Then there's also the fact that Harry's personal enemy, Draco Malfoy, is a Slytherin seeker. If anyone's an 'anti-love' symbol it has to be Draco, whose heart is clearly filled with hatred, spite and fear, whose very name contains elements of 'dragon (Draco)' and 'bad (Mal)' and whose father is a key lieutenant of Voldemort with the first name of Lucius (not a million miles away from Lucifer). To deepen the flying/love connection, Draco is the person who is slashed by Buckbeak and the Malfoys and Macnair are involved in trying to have Buckbeak killed.
Ginny is of course also a seeker.
The first thing to note is that Ginny is not a seeker at the same time that Harry is a seeker.
She does not play in the team at the same time that he does.
She is also a reluctant seeker, she tells Harry she wants him to come back as seeker and that she wants to play chaser.
We don't know for sure that
1) Harry will come back as seeker and
2) that Ginny will play chaser.
But if that does happen then they will never both be seekers at the same time.
Isn't it curious that as soon as soon as JKR puts Ginny on the team, she pulls Harry off it?
There's been a lot of discussion about how Harry and Hermione miss Ron's big moment in the quidditch final but they miss Ginny's big moment as well. Ron made the saves but Ginny caught the snitch. Normally it's the seeker who gets the praise for winning the game but Ron is the one who is feted.
Cho is the opposition seeker she beats to the snitch.
Two things to do with that:
1) Harry is not around to see it happen and
2) Harry's crush for Cho is in its death throws.
Then something else curious happens: Ginny dumps her boyfriend who then latches on to Cho, who has given up on Harry, as he has given up on her.
One could argue that Ginny has had a romantic connection to Harry as fellow seekers Cho, Viktor and Cedric did.
But the interest was one-sided, Harry knew all about Ginny's interest in him and was not interested back.
At the time Ginny becomes seeker, she is said to be over her crush on Harry.
And unlike the other seekers she isn't in competition with Harry: He doesn't beat her or be beaten by her at quidditch or in a tournament.
She's no longer romantically engaged or competitively engaged with Harry.
Instead the Ginny/quidditch symbolism suggests indifference and separation - he's not there, he doesn't see, he's not a part of what she's doing, her romantic entanglements involve someone he's moved on from.
Some people may argue along these lines: ‘Cedric is the one who beats Harry to the snitch just as Cedric is the one who beats him to Cho's affections’ ‘Ginny is the one who beats Cho to the snitch just as Ginny will be the one who beats her to Harry’s affections’
But there are key differences.
For a start, as Grace points out to me, Cho has already been out with Harry, she's already 'beaten' Ginny to Harry so how can Ginny beating Cho at quidditch be a reference to a future romance with Harry?
Harry's games against Cedric and Cho happen in POA. The only thing that happens then in a romantic sense is that Harry sees Cho and feels the first stir of his crush. It doesn't start to play out until GOF and OOTP. What happens between Harry/Cedric/Cho in POA is foreshadowing.
What happens between Ginny and Cho, if it carries any symbolism, is all about the past.
For a start there is quite a lot of doubt about the extent of Cho's feelings for Harry. Her feelings were confused, mixed up with her feelings for Cedric, her sadness over his death, her wanting to talk to Harry about it. She's floundering around basically.
But if we accept that she had a crush on Harry, we are seeing a quidditch duel between two girls who have already seen their hopes for a relationship with Harry dashed.
Ginny has given up on Harry. Cho has had two bad rows with him. After the match, we later learn, Ginny dumps Michael and Michael goes off with Cho and Ginny goes off with Dean. This is all about moving on.
What's more, what happens between Cho and Ginny occurs while Harry is absent, off in the forest with Hermione and Hagrid. As I said, Harry's crush on Cho is in its death throws:
"Harry felt his stomach perform less of a back flip, more a feeble lurch as Cho walked out onto the pitch...He was not sure what he wanted to happen any more, except that he could not stand any more rows. Even the sight of her chatting animatedly to Roger Davies...caused him only a slight twinge of jealousy."
And he only returns once the game is over.
Also a relationship with Ginny is not obviously a 'better broom' (from the Nimbus to Firebolt) than a relationship with Cho. How is Ginny better?
At least Harry fancied Cho. He is not interested in Ginny, he does not fancy her. He even compares the way she looks to her brothers. That's not a positive description when the guy making it is supposedly one's great romantic intended.
Cho is older, more mature, intelligent (she's in Ravenclaw) sporty, she shows in various scenes in OOTP that she can be brave.
Ginny with her relationship with Harry has a parallel in Neville and Hermione.
Ginny's crush was largely to do with hero worship - she was interested in him because of his fame before she had spoken a word to him. Neville liked Hermione because she was especially kind to him when he was being bullied and looked down on - she was a kind of personal hero.
Both Neville and Ginny are people who have been underestimated and overshadowed and who are gradually coming into their own. Neville asked Hermione to the Yule Ball because (according to Ron) "she's always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff" but she had already accepted Viktor. Ginny wanted to go to the ball with Harry but accepted Neville when Hermione said no. So in various ways JKR shadows Harry/Hermione with a motley crew of Viktor, Cho, Cedric, Ginny, Neville, Luna and Ron, with both Harry and Hermione leaving a few heart wrecks in their wake.
As I mentioned earlier, there is a curious irony that Hermione brings the flying symbolism to the H/Hr partnership yet needs help to fly and Harry's symbolism is the opposite yet he has a great gift with his ability in the air.
Harry's quidditch high point is actually back in book three when he was the catalyst for Gryffindor winning the quidditch cup for the first time in seven years.
It is not certain, with the second wizard war starting, that Harry will continue with quidditch. Has the seeker actually found what he's looking for without realising it yet?
Part 3) THE FIREBOLT
1) What's in a name?
The name instantly recalls the words 'lightning bolt' because of 'bolt' but also because of the associations of natural power associated with fire and lightning.
Harry famously has a lightning bolt scar on his forehead, put there when Voldemort tried to kill him. It is the link between Harry and Voldemort and also a symbol of Harry's triumph over Voldemort. Eihwaz, the rune of defence, looks like a lightning bolt.
Fire is also associated with Harry through his star sign Leo being a Fire sign and because of his astrological links to Apollo and Vulcan. The Firebolt has a "handle of ash". The ash tree was considered in Greek mythology to produce (golden) honey.
2) Its importance
The Firebolt is the most precious possession Harry owns. As I mentioned, symbolically it represents Harry and Hermione's relationship/partnership.
This is Harry's second broom, but much better than the first. The Irish team ride Firebolts in the QWC final in GOF.
The Nimbus is described as "sleek and shiny" and "turned wherever he wanted at his lightest touch".
The Firebolt is "the most magnificent broom he had ever seen in his life," a "magnificent gleaming broomstick" a "dream broom" and "he had never wanted anything so much in his whole life".
When he first flies on it: "It was better than he'd ever dreamed. The Firebolt turned with the lightest touch; it seemed to obey his thoughts rather than his grip. It sped across the pitch at such a speed that the stadium turned into a green and grey blur; Harry turned it so sharply that Alicia Spinnet screamed."
So it is faster, more agile and - as Hermione is often able to - follows his thoughts. He has a much stronger emotional attachment to it.
When Harry first sees a Firebolt there is no price attached to it. And Harry "didn't like to think how much gold the Firebolt would cost." As the song goes "can't buy me love" - the Firebolt doesn't end up costing Harry anything. It's a Christmas gift from his godfather.
If we look at the time sequence:
Harry gains his first broom, the Nimbus, in his first year and loses it in his third. His crush on Cho starts in his third year and ends in his fifth. A three year gap with both.
In POA Harry receives a broomstick servicing kit from Hermione as a birthday present.
Note: Importantly, there is NO reference to Harry using the kit on the Nimbus. The Nimbus is associated with Cho, not Hermione.
Harry is first attracted to the Firebolt on display in Diagon Alley but reasons that he's got a perfectly good broom that hasn't failed him so why spend gold for a new one. Harry has been loyal in his crush on Cho, he had to get over it before he could move on.
The Nimbus is smashed after Harry falls off in a quidditch match and Cedric beats him to the snitch. This can be interpreted as symbolic foreshadowing of Harry's doomed first love for Cho.
1) The Nimbus is his first broom as Cho is his first and only crush.
2) This is the only time Harry fails to get the snitch and win, his relationship with Cho fails.
3) Harry and Cedric are both seekers, chasing the snitch.
4) Cedric is the one who catches the snitch just as Cedric beats Harry to asking Cho to the Yule Ball and becoming Cho's boyfriend before Harry.
5) But Cedric wins in ominous circumstances - the dementors come onto the field, Harry falls - his 'victory' is literally short-lived.
Perdy points out that: "JKR foreshadowed Cedric’s end using this scene of the Dementors’ arrival during his Quidditch game, much like the Triwizard Tournament and the onslaught of the Death Eaters. There is not just one item that forms a parallel, but there are three!"
The demise of the first broom gives an opening for a second, better, "dream" broom.
Harry doesn't automatically think of the Firebolt. He decides to read up on the different makes. But the decision on which broom to get is taken out of his hands by Sirius' gift.
One of the first things Harry does when he gets the Firebolt is to get out his broomstick kit. JKR reminds the reader who gave it to him:
"Harry went straight up to the dormitory, collected his Firebolt and the Broomstick Servicing Kit hermione had given him for his birthday, brought them downstairs and tried to find something to do to the Firebolt; however, there were no bent twigs to clip, and the handle was so shiny already it seemed pointless to polish it. he and Ron simply sat admiting it from every angle."
Harry no sooner gets it than Hermione, being cautious, takes it away to be checked for any problems.
This causes difficulties between them but they come through it strongly and their friendship has developed to the extent that it can bend but not break whatever the pressure.
Harry is made to wait before he can fly on the Firebolt.
If there is symbolism to this I think it is to do with the path to romance for Harry and Hermione being difficult and long.
Perhaps this period is also a reference to Hermione's focus on defence of Harry rather than partnership with him, as echoed in OOTP with the rune and star chart clues.
There is also another reference to Harry and the broomstick kit in GOF:
(GOF P136) "Harry was polishing his Firebolt, the Broomstick Servicing Kit Hermione had given him for his 13th birthday open at his feet."
If the flying/love connection is correct then this is a nice image of Harry and Hermione tendering to their relationship.
3) The Firebolt fight
When Hermione effectively takes the broomstick away, she initiates the worst period in her friendship with Harry, they stop talking to each other for about a month - the same time as Harry's fallout with Ron in GOF.
But while Harry is "angry" with Hermione, Harry and Hermione are never bitter or verbally abusive to each other. Ron is angry with her, stops talking to her and makes nasty comments to Hermione even though it has nothing to do with him.
As with the house elves, Hermione's reasons are sound but her methods are less so.
(POA P184) "Harry's jaw dropped. She was holding out his Firebolt, and it looked as magnificent as ever.
"I can have it back?" Harry said weakly. "Seriously?"....
Speechless, Harry carried the Firebolt back upstairs...As he turned a corner, he saw Ron dashing towards him, grinning from ear to ear.
"She gave it to you? Excellent! Listen, can I still have a go on it? Tomorrow?
"Yeah...anything..." said Harry, his heart lighter than it had been in a month. "You know what - we should make it up with Hermione. She was only trying to help..."
"Yeah, all right," said Ron...
After 10 minutes or so, which the Firebolt was passed around and admired from every andgle, the crowd dispersed and Harry and Ron had a clear view of Hermione, the only person who hadn't rushed over to them, bent over her work and carefully avoiding their eyes. Harry and Ron approached her table and at last, she looked up.
"I got it back," said Harry, grinning at her and holding up the Firebolt.
"See, Hermione? There wasn't anything wrong with it!" said Ron.
"Well - there might have been!" said Hermione. "I mean, at least you know now that it's safe!"
"Yeah, I suppose so," said Harry. "I'd better put it upstairs - "
"I'll take it!" said Ron eagerly. "I've got to give Scabbers his rat tonic.
He took the Firebolt, and, holding it as if it were made of glass, carried it away."
Harry is overwhelmed at getting his Firebolt back.
Note: His reaction is in his heart - his heart felt "lighter than it had been in a month" - since the time the dispute with Hermione began. His jaw also drops which it doesn't do very often in the series but of course notably it does at the Yule ball when he sees Hermione.
Ron's first thought is 'can I fly on it'. Harry, the person who actually owns the broom and has yet to fly on it, thinks only of making up with Hermione.
He recognises that her heart was in the right place, that she had the best of intentions.
Harry's grin says he's relieved to be able to fix things with Hermione, whereas Ron tries to rub it in with an 'I told you so'. (Bear in mind that when Ron and Harry fell out in GOF, Hermione chose to mainly spend her time with Harry, but she never stopped talking to Ron and she didn't bad-mouth Ron to Harry. She treated Ron fairly.)
Ron again shows that it's the broom that's important to him, not repairing his relationship with Hermione, by the reverence with which he handles the broom and jumps at the chance to carry it.
Whereas Harry, in the subsequent scene, is totally focused on Hermione and how she's feeling. He finally puts her first:
(POA P185) "Can I sit down, then?" Harry asked Hermione.
"I suppose so," said Hermione, moving a great stack of parchment off a chair.
Harry looked around at the cluttered table....
"How are you getting through all this stuff?" Harry asked her.
"Oh, well - you know - working hard," said Hermione. Close to Harry saw that she looked almost as tired as Lupin.
"Why don't you just drop a couple of subjects?" Harry asked, watching her lifting books...
"I counldn't do that!" said Hermione, looking scandalised.
"Arithmancy looks terrible," said Harry, picking up a very complicated-looking number chart.
"Oh, no, it's wonderful!" said Hermione earnestly. "It's my favourite subject! It's -"
Harry is gentle with her, watches her, is interested in what she's doing and is concerned about how tired she is.
Her comment about Arithmancy has a sequel in OOTP where Harry buys her an Arithmancy book she especially wanted, which means
1) he remembered what she said and
2) he went to some effort to please her.
She also actually follows his advice and drops a couple of subjects at the end of the year.
The scene is interrupted by Ron, blaming her for Crookshanks supposedly eating Scabbers. When Harry tries to say the evidence points Ron's way, Hermione stops talking to both boys.
4) Ron and the Firebolt
Right from the start Ron deeply admires Harry's broom. And Ron does have a brief turn on the broom in POA. But:
1) it's not in a quidditch game
2) the snitch isn't involved
3) Ron isn't a seeker and
4) at that stage he isn't playing for the house team.
As with Ginny and Harry, Ron's romantic interest in Hermione appears to be one-sided (unlike the Victor/Hermione situation). There are also doubts about whether he has a crush at all and whether his feelings for Hermione are more to do with sibling-like jealousy and possessiveness. JKR appears to make a connection to his reaction to hearing about Ginny's boyfriends in OOTP to how he reacted at the Yule Ball in GOF over Hermione.
So for these reasons I don't believe the love/flying imagery applies to him.
During the fighting in POA, Ron is given two 'highs' through flying - when he has a turn on Harry's broom and from Gryffindor winning a quidditch match. Yet neither of these experiences make him feel good enough to be generous to Hermione and make up with her. He is also not moved to make up with her after he reduces her to tears. This pattern of Ron missing opportunities to make up is repeated with Harry during their fight in GOF.
5) The First Task and the Firebolt in OOTP
Again we see a strong link between Harry, Hermione and the Firebolt.
Harry finds out he has to get past a dragon to grab a golden egg. Sirius is unable to help him.
JKR writes Harry telling Hermione he needs to learn the Summoning Charm in a rather sly way:
(GOF P302) "And it clicked. He was best at flying. He needed to pass the dragon in the air. For that, he needed his Firebolt. And for his Firebolt, he needed -
"Hermione," Harry whispered, when he had sped into green-house three ten minutes later..."Hermione - I need you to help me."
"What d'you think I've been trying to do, Harry?" she whispered back, her eyes round with anxiety..
"Hermione, I need to learn how to do a Summoning Charm properly by tomorrow afternoon."
On the one hand it's quite a normal technique to raise the dramatic level by interrupting one scene on the cusp of a revelation and then delaying the revelation. So it's a more dramatic way of writing it than just saying: 'and for his Firebolt he needed to master the Summoning Charm.'
But on the other, it's showing the essence of the situation: "Harry needs Hermione badly" in JKR's own words.
It's an interesting question as to whether dragons are good or bad in the HP series. There's the example of Norbert. Dragon heartstrings are used in wands, Viktor has one. King Arthur was Arthur Pendragon (chief dragon) and dragons are a symbol of bravery. On the other hand Draco means dragon and the Hungarian Horntail is clearly presented as an enemy to overcome.
In this case Harry can't achieve his goal of getting past the dragon to get to the 'gold' with out Hermione.
He can't do it without his Firebolt. And he can't get his Firebolt without Hermione.
Again this suggests how essential Hermione and Harry's relationship/partnership with her is to the series.
Note: JKR neatly mirrors and transposes the teacher (Hermione) and pupil (Harry) link in GOF (Hermione also runs Harry's jinxing classes before the Third Task) with Harry teaching Hermione and the other DA members in OOTP.
It is the fake Moody who plants the idea in Harry's head of using his flying skills to complete the task. Moody's only desire is for Harry to do well so he can be delivered to Voldemort, but ultimately the summoning spell that Hermione teaches Harry for the First Task also saves his life against Voldemort.
Note: This idea of turning the tables on the enemy is replayed in OOTP when Hermione models the DA coins on the Death Eaters' tattoos.
(GOF P301) "Play to your strengths."
"I haven't got any," said Harry before he could stop himself....
"What are you best at?"
Harry tried to concentrate. What was he best at? Well, that was easy, really -
"Quidditch," he said dully, "and a fat lot of help -"
Here quite clearly we are told that flying is what Harry is best at. And there's an echo of this scene in OOTP (after which Dumbledore tells Harry about the love room):
(OOTP P743) "He did not know that you would have power the Dark Lord knows not -"
"But I don't!" said Harry, in a strangled voice.
"I haven't any powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't possess people or - or kill them -"
Perhaps what we are seeing over GOF and OOTP, is a gradual change for Harry.
After the high of winning the quidditch cup in POA - reaching the pinnacle in the game at Hogwarts - Harry has only played one game of quidditch in two books since.
Perhaps, as Harry matures and develops leadership skills, there is a change from using his natural 'powers' in games, to using them in the fight against Voldemort. That must include using the power he has in his heart and, I would think, forming the type of teamwork/love partnership with Hermione that his and Neville's parents had. This coincides with Harry growing into an adult just as Voldemort returns and the second wizard war begins.
(GOF P310) "As he soared upwards, as the wind rushed through his hair...he realised that he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear...he was back where he belonged...This was just another quidditch match...and that Horntail was just another ugly opposing team....."OK," Harry told himself, "diversionary tactics...let's go...."
And of course diversionary tactics - smashing prophesies - were exactly what he used to escape from the Death Eaters in the DOM.
(OOTP P692) "He moved his foot slowly sideways, feeling around for someone else's.
"Do not play games with us, Potter," said Malfoy.
"I'm not playing games," said Harry...And then he found someone's toes and pressed down upon them. A sharp intake of breath behind him told him they were Hermione's.....
Behind him he felt rather than heard Hermione passing his message to the others and he sought to keep talking, to distract the Death Eaters."
The game and the skills needed to play in it and win have been transformed and widened from the quidditch pitch to the general community.
In OOTP the Firebolt, like Buckbeak with Kreacher, comes under attack from forces of darkness. Umbridge may not be a Death Eater but she is corrupt, power-crazed and sadistic enough to try to use an unforgivable curse on Harry and to set dementors on him.
She has Harry banned from playing quidditch and has his Firebolt chained, padlocked and under guard in the dungeons.
(OOTP P488) "It seemed to Harry that Umbridge was steadily depriving him of everything that made his life at Hogwarts worth living: visits to Hagrid's house, letters from Sirius, his Firebolt and quidditch."
But Harry feels better through Hermione's efforts on his behalf with the DA and Rita article and ultimately it is Hermione who gets rid of Umbridge by delivering her to the centaurs, apparently removing the obstacle blocking Harry from retrieving his broomstick and returning to the quidditch team. But JKR does leave those questions open-ended for book six.
Personally I find it hard to believe that JKR would take quidditch away from Harry completely even with the trend mentioned above.
Perhaps the grounding of Harry represents the fact that OOTP is a transitional period for the H/Hr relationship:
1) Harry is focused on Cho, his crush on her comes to a peak and then dissapitates.
2) Harry spends most of the year stoking and releasing his anger, bitter at the way he's been treated. While Hermione has been too focused on defence, Harry has been too focused on war - both his personal and the general battles.
(OOTP P55) "He felt as though his heart was going to explode with pleasure, he was flying again ... for a few glorius moments, all his problems seemed to recede to nothing...He had not felt this alive in a month, or this happy."
This line - (OOTP P406) "she's afraid she's going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw quidditch team because she's been flying so badly" - suggests a link between Cho's personal problems and her loss in flying form.
3) Harry suffers the severe blow of Sirius' death.
However despite those problems in OOTP JKR starts to bring Harry's feelings for Hermione closer to the surface.
1) For the first time Harry feels extreme disquiet at Ron and Hermione getting together without him over summer and spending time together without him.
2) For the first time Harry starts to connect the voice he hears in his head as his conscience with Hermione.
3) Harry has a dream where Cho, his crush, turns into Hermione.
4) In the forest scenes with Grawp, Hagrid and the centaurs Harry shows a strong instinct to physically protect Hermione.
This did not happen during the Shrieking Shack and time turner scenes in POA. JKR is showing a clear change, a clear progression in Harry's feelings.
In the POA scenes Harry allowed Hermione to grab hold of him for emotional and physical support. Yet they were facing equally scary foes as in OOTP: the Whomping Willow, the dementors, Lupin as a werewolf, Sirius as a big dog.
Harry also instinctively looks to protect Hermione when the group of six is escaping the DEs in the DOM.
5) There are examples of uncharacteristic behaviour by Harry towards Hermione that show her opinion has become more important to him.
He helps her with revision, he hides his bad marks from her, he responds badly when she doesn't get angry on his behalf when he thought she would.
JKR shows another progression: in POA Harry lied to Hermione about Hogsmeade without remorse, in GOF he felt guilt about lying to her over the egg but ignores it, in OOTP when he lies to her over occlumency he can't meet her eyes.
6) He spends a lot of time staring at Hermione in OOTP. There are constant descriptions of what she's doing, more than before. Noticeably for the first time there are descriptions of her "eyes shining" and "face glowing".
7) He sticks up for Hermione to his crush, Cho - even after Cho has made it clear she's suspicious and jealous of Harry's closeness to Hermione.
JKR may of course find other ways of delaying the blossoming of H/Hr in book six. There is symbolism/hints in the books that suggest both a love triangle trio falling out and a general plot development involving Hermione and Lucius.
6) Specific Firebolt symbolism and dreams
Harry's first game on the Firebolt is against Ravenclaw where he is directly pitted against Cho as opposing seekers. Cho tails him, blocks him, forces him to change direction rather than looks for the snitch herself.
Funnily enough Harry actually performs the type of manoeuvre that Viktor pulls at the QWC:
(POA P193 Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw) "Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Cho following him...she'd decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself. Right then...if she wanted to tail him, she'd have to take the consequences...He dived again, and Cho, thinking he'd seen the snitch, tried to follow. Harry pulled out of the dive very sharply, she hurtled downwards; he rose fast as a bullet once more, and then saw it...the snitch was glittering way above the pitch at the Ravenclaw end."
(GOF P98) "At the very last second, Viktor Krum pulled out of the dive and spiralled off. Lynch however hit the ground with a dull thud. (On replay) He saw Krum's face contorted with concentration as he pulled out of the dive just in time, while Lynch was flattened, and he understood - Krum hadn't seen the snitch at all, he was just making Lynch copy him.."
So Cho is out-manoeuvred and Harry beats her to the snitch. After the match Harry tries to bring Hermione back into the fold but Ron resists and Hermione runs off crying. Harry has a dream involving the Firebolt which is interrupted by Sirius' attack on Ron.
(POA P196) This is just before Sirius attacks Ron.
"He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run and ahead, he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and -"
- Harry is chasing what appears to be his stag patronus and doesn't think to use his Firebolt to catch up with it.
(POA P223) This is just before the quidditch final.
"First he dreamed that he had overslept and that Wood was yelling. 'Where were you? We had to use Neville instead!' Then he dreamed that Malfoy and the rest of the Slytherin team arrived for the match riding dragons. He was flying at breakneck speed trying to avoid a spurt of flames from Malfoy's steed's mouth, when he realised he had forgotten his Firebolt. He fell through the air."
- Interesting considering Neville is a 'shadow' Harry linked to the prophesy. Dragons are the foe as in the First Task but more obviously associated with the enemy - Malfoy. Harry fails without the Firebolt (Hermione's) help.
(GOF P425) This is just before the Second Task.
"The mermaid in the painting in the prefects' bathroom was laughing. Harry was bobbing like a cork in bubbly water next to her rock, while she held his Firebolt over his head. "Come and get it!" she giggled maliciously. "Come on, jump!" "I can't" Harry panted, snatching at the Firebolt, and struggling not to sink. "Give it to me!"
- His precious Firebolt has been captured and kept from him. Not unlike what Umbridge did in OOTP.
(OOTP P408) "Harry dreamed he was back in the DA room. Cho was accusing him of luring her there under false pretences; she said he had promised her a hundred and fifty Chocolate Frog Cards if she showed up. Harry protested...Cho shouted, 'Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog Cards, look!' And she pulled out fistfuls of cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air. Then she turned into Hermione, who said, 'You did promise her, you know, Harry ... I think you'd better give her something else instead ... how about your Firebolt?' And Harry was protesting that he could not give Cho his Firebolt, because Umbridge had it, and anyway the whole thing was ridiculous, he'd only come to the DA room to put up some Christmas baubles shaped like Dobby's head."
If we put this in context, Harry has just been kissed by an upset, emotional Cho. Instead of it being a good experience as he expected, he finds himself emotionally recoiling. It feels wrong and he's not sure if he wants to go any further in developing a relationship with Cho. Harry can handle Hermione's emotional range but Cho is someone he doesn't know, is not friends with, whom he's fantasised about as a kind of glamour girl he can have fun with. That fantasy evaporates. Cho approaching him in the DA room becomes one of the emotional memories he fears in his occulmency lessons with Snape.
Chocolate Frog Cards are something students collect, so they're not totally meaningless. But a collection of cards is a very frivolous, minor possession compared to the Firebolt.
The dream I think refers to the fact that Harry has had this long attraction for Cho and she is aware of it - Harry asked her to the Yule Ball. So now that they are both single, Cho assumes that the long hinted relationship can go ahead, and makes a move. But Harry's dream is telling him that emotionally he doesn't want it - he can't give her what Cedric gave her, commitment to a relationship. Then Cho turns into Hermione and the stakes are raised much further because the Firebolt is his most precious possession. Hermione is probing Harry to see how serious Harry is about Cho. Harry cannot give Cho his heart, cannot be part of a serious, love relationship with her. He cannot give Cho cards, let alone his Firebolt. And the most interesting part is the fact that Hermione doesn't just appear: Cho turns into Hermione. Hermione comes after Cho just as on Valentine's Day Harry goes to Hogsmeade with Cho and ends up with Hermione. Again we get that Hermione/Firebolt link. Perdy comments: "that is exactly what Hermione does in real life. She probes Harry and his feelings for Cho."
Note: Hermione is the only one in the books to command another key possession of Harry's, his wand. (PS P119) "She grabbed Harry's wand, tapped the lock and whispered 'Alohomora!'". (OOTP P697) "Accio wand!" cried Hermione. Harry's wand flew from a dark corner into her hand and she threw it to him.")
Part 4) HERMIONE AND FLYING
Hermione's character development over the series can be likened to someone learning to fly and gradually getting better and more confident. She starts off as an insecure person who is a stickler for the rules and relies on books for information.
She becomes friends with the boys and also becomes more relaxed and confident. She realises there are times when rules have to be broken. Her adventures with the boys build her confidence, skills and experience. She has had six adventures/periods of time with Harry away from Ron. Metaphorically she becomes a better flyer. As I explain further on in this part, there is still further development to go. Harry has to learn about the special power he has and I feel that Hermione's character development and their closening relationship suggests that she will be significantly involved in this theme as well.
1) The first lesson
Here I'm going to look at the part of the scene which involves Hermione. JKR makes a grouping of Harry, Hermione and Neville showing their differing fortunes in how the brooms react to their commands.
Hermione, like Harry, comes to quidditch cold with no prior knowledge or experience of flying before Hogwarts.
Interestingly, so does Neville. Unlike Harry and Hermione, who are Muggle-raised, Neville is a pure-blood but (PS P107) "had never been on a broomstick in his life, because his grandmother had never let him near one."
Their first flying lesson takes place before the trio become friends.
Hermione is "almost as nervous about flying as Neville was. This was something you couldn't learn by heart out of a book." She tries, reading Quidditch Through the Ages.
We aren't told how Ron copes at their first flying lesson, JKR focuses on Harry, Neville and Hermione. This is interesting given the later development of these three characters.
We get three different reactions: Harry's broom jumps into his hand at once, Hermione's rolls over on the ground and Neville's doesn't move at all. However shortly afterwards Neville goes for a wild ride and falls and Harry shows his supreme natural talent catching Neville's rememberal.
It's not a stretch, with the aid of hindsight, to say that Harry has huge instinctive abilities; Neville has latent talent that needs to be brought out and harnessed; and Hermione - Miss Reason with the Earth birth sign of Virgo - needs help leaving the ground.
"Perhaps brooms, like horses, could tell when you were afraid, thought Harry; there was a quaver in Neville's voice that said only too clearly that he wanted to keep his feet on the ground." Note here that Harry doesn't include Hermione in that thought.
2) Chasing the key
How well does Hermione fly? The only reference to Hermione flying on a broom is (PS P204) "Hermione rocketed upwards". The word "rocketed" suggests speed. She doesn't crash or fall off or have any nervous reaction or refuse to fly. So from that we can tell that she at least flew competently. In contrast, JKR emphasises problems with Ron's flying: he "crashed into the ceiling and nearly fell off his broom." Ron has been flying all his life, yet with that small description we can see that he's not great at it. If JKR wanted to suggest that Hermione couldn't handle her broom she could have written something similar for her.
Hermione has gone from not being able to get a broom to move earlier in PS to at least being able to fly competently.
Over the same period Hermione has become friends with the boys and become more relaxed about rule-breaking. She's also had to evaluate what is important to her, as exemplified by her speech "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and -"
FP notes: "Before she made friends at Hogwarts Hermione was very strict and didn't break any rules. She did hold by far more onto her books and onto rules. This says that after she made friends she was able to be more herself. That's why she was able to fly."
As the series goes on Hermione becomes more willing to risk her academic future and put her wants aside to help Harry. But at this stage, when Harry suggests going after the Stone she protests "you'll be expelled". After Harry points out that stopping Voldemort from getting the Stone is more important than being expelled and the other two decide to go with him, Hermione still has a safety net:
"But if we get caught, you will be expelled too."
"Not if I can help it," said Hermione grimly. "Flitwick told me in secret that I got a hundred and twelve per cent on his exam. They're not throwing me out after that."
Still, as the flying metaphor in Through the Trapdoor suggests, in terms of character development she's left the ground, she's made progress.
3) Buckbeak
There are two other instances of Hermione flying: on Buckbeak in POA and on a thestral in OOTP.
Only Harry on his own; Harry and Hermione together; Harry, Hermione and Sirius; and Sirius on his own have ridden him. (Thanks Grace).
The scenes where Harry rides him and Harry and Hermione ride him, directly tap into the key theme in the series of the importance of love.
If we look at their first meeting with Buckbeak (POA P89) , it's rather heavy with symbolism.
JKR outlines the process of approaching and dealing with the hippogriff. Love is not a cute, cuddly, soft and harmless creature. It is fierce, dignified, powerful and demands to be treated with caution and respect. Harry, being the boldest, is the first to approach, to be accepted, to fly on Buckbeak.
FP points out there is a connection there with flying on the broomstick: "Harry is in this scene the only one who is able to fly Buckbeak. This is interesting that someone who had an extraordinary ability to fly a broom in his first lesson like he never did something different is also able to ride a hippogriff."
Note: Ron, at NO stage, touches Buckbeak. At one point it says "Ron and Hermione practised on the chestnut, while Harry watched." They never fly on the chestnut separately or together. Even in GOF, when they see Buckbeak in the cave, Ron does not touch him: "Buckbeak bent his scaly front knees, and allowed Hermione to rush forward and stroke his feathery neck." Ron has no interaction with Buckbeak in OOTP. Ron does not fly on any hippogriff.
Malfoy, whose heart is full of malice, is cut by Buckbeak's talons. This occurs after he looks "disdainful" and insults Buckbeak:
"This is very easy," Malfoy drawled..."I knew it must have been, if Potter could do it... I bet you're not dangerous at all, are you?" he said to the hippogriff. "Are you, you ugly great brute?"
When Harry first flies on Buckbeak he notes he "wasn't sure where to hold on", its wings "were beating uncomfortably on either side of him, catching him under his legs and making him feel he was about to be thrown off" and "the glossy feathers slipped under his fingers and he didn't dare get a stronger grip." What's more instead of the smooth action of the broomstick "he now felt himself rocking backwards and forwards." As he lands he feels "he was going to slip off over the beak" and "just managed to hold on".
In other words about as difficult a ride, in different ways, as Harry could have. Love is difficult and hard to navigate and Harry is nervous and insecure on his first attempt.
Malfoy tries to have Buckbeak killed, but the hippogriff is saved (POA P302) by Harry and Hermione using the time turner.
"This is it, Hermione -"
Hermione put her hands on Buckbeak's back and Harry gave her a leg up...he climbed up in front of her...
"Ready?" he whispered to Hermione. "You'd better hold on to me -"
He nudged Buckbeak's sides with his heels. Buckbeak soared straight into the dark air. Harry gripped his flanks with his knees, feeling the great wings rising powerfully beneath them. Hermione was holding Harry very tightly around the waist; he could hear her muttering. "Oh, no - I don't like this - oh, I really don't like this -"
...she took out her wand, still gripping the back of Harry's robes with her left hand. "Alohomora!" The window sprang open...
The hippogriff gave one sweep of its mighty wings and they were soaring upwards again, high as the top of the West Tower. Buckbeak landed with a clatter on the battlements and Harry and Hermione slid off him at once."
Notice how different this scene is from Harry first flight. He's confident and assured, the rock for Hermione to hold onto. There's a lovely moment of intimacy when he whispers for Hermione to hold onto him. And instead of stressing uncertainty and difficulty, JKR flourishes her romantic imagery: "soared", "dark air", "great wings", "powerfully beneath them", "sweep of its mighty wings", "soaring".
Hermione's nervousness is short-lived and comparable to Harry's on his first flight. We can't read her thoughts as we can Harry's so JKR writes her holding tightly onto Harry and muttering her unease, just after they take off. But that's the extent of it, it doesn't compare to her frightened state when meeting Grawp for instance (OOTP P614) when "Hermione clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering." She only makes the one comment - at the START of the flight - and by the time they reach Sirius has clearly regained her composure to tell him to stand back and she unlocks the window.
Love makes her nervous at first, but she adapts quickly and Harry is the one she is holding on to.
Hawk points out that if Hermione were so scared of flying on Buckbeak as R/Hr and H/G shippers contend why is she so pleased to see Buckbeak the next time, enough to "rush forward" to stroke him?
The time-turner adventure together has a great influence on the development of Harry and Hermione's relationship, too much to go into in this essay. But it's after this period that we really see them becoming much closer together.
JKR has personalised the hippogriff symbolism to Buckbeak - not several hippogriffs - Harry, Hermione and Sirius.
Hagrid owned Buckbeak initially but he doesn't fly on Buckbeak and as far as he is aware the hippogriff just escaped. He hasn't had any contact with Buckbeak since Harry and Hermione removed him in POA.
Another reason why I don't include Hagrid in the symbolism, is that his involvement is a part of JKR's set up for the presence of Buckbeak in the series, just as it is for Norbert and the thestrals, for instance. He looks after and teaches about magical creatures. His interest in strange creatures is a useful part of the plot - Aragog, for instance.
It isn't just a case of bean-counting: looking at every person in a scene and thinking their presence carries equal weight or has equal meaning. You have to assess the dynamics of a particular scene and look at what the author is trying to say and where's she headed. Sometimes patterns emerge over a period. We have a recurring theme of Harry, Hermione and Sirius interacting with Buckbeak over the past three books. There is also a recurring theme of Malfoy's evil crew trying to sabotage Buckbeak. It's there in the text.
In OOTP after Harry has his snake dream he retreats further away from the Weasleys and Sirius to take refuge in Buckbeak's room, and is feeding the hippogriff when Hermione comes to his rescue. Mention is even made of the hippogriff to draw attention to his presence as Harry opens the door to her. Hermione's love for Harry makes her turn her back on a skiing holiday with her family at Christmas so she can help him. She draws him out of the room and is the catalyst for drawing him out of his depression. Ron and Ginny help her but only after JKR has shown them, the other Weasleys and Sirius to be ineffective in dealing with Harry.
As I mentioned, the other interesting thing is the way 'anti-love' symbols come up against the hippogriff: in POA Draco is injured by Buckbeak and then with the help of his father and Macnair (both Death Eaters) try to have the hippogriff killed; in OOTP Kreacher injures Buckbeak to keep Sirius busy tending to him and out of the way when Harry tries to contact Sirius. And then there is this curious scene at the DOM:
(OOTP P707) "The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe...nobody seemed to realise that Harry was dying...Neville had come lunging out of nowhere; unable to articulate a spell, he had jabbed Hermione's wand hard into the eyehole of the Death Eater's mask. The man relinquished Harry at once in a howl of pain...The Death Eater keeled over backwards and his mask slipped off: it was Macnair, Buckbeak's would-be killer."
JKR never lets the reader forget that even though Hermione is incapacitated, it's her wand that Neville is using. Hermione's wand saves Harry from being killed by the man who tried to kill Buckbeak.
4) The Thestrals
With this part on the thestrals I'm looking at Hermione's character development in relation to flying.
The thestrals are symbols of death, not love. Only people who have witnessed death can see them.
JKR likes her sly little jokes (OOTP P168) "I'm nobody," said Neville i.e. 'Neville Nobody') and Hermione IS a 'seeing is believing' person (not that I'm saying the thestrals are designed with Hermione in mind).
But while starting from a position of rationality, Hermione's interaction with the Thestrals, Luna and the prophesy in OOTP ultimately demonstrate her developing open-mindedness and willingness to understand.
Her attitudes are similar to Harry's. For instance when Tonks asks Harry if he has seer blood (OOTP P426) he thinks "of Professor Trelawney" and feels "insulted". But he has an advantage over Hermione - in being ready to believe in the unlikely - in that he has heard Trelawney give a real prophesy, has had dreams connected to real events and is able to see the Thestrals.
They both have a healthy sceptisim and ability to analyse and question, Hermione more so than Harry. Harry is more impulsive and more open to the unusual. Luna could be important in BOTH Harry and Hermione helping Harry to wield the power he has that Voldemort doesn't.
With the prophesy, Hermione shows a marked change in attitude:
(OOTP P748) "Bet Dumbledore wishes he could've got rid of Trelawney for good," said Ron. "Mind you the whole subject's useless if you ask me, Firenze isn't a lot better..."
"How can you say that?" Hermione demanded. "After we've just found out that there are real prophecies."
Remember, this is the girl who considered Trelawney to be a fraud and walked out of divination. I don't for a moment believe Hermione will start to believe in superstitious nonsense, but I think she will be less inclined to dismiss the unusual and the bizarre out of hand. Remember also that Hermione studies astrology and arithmancy, two subjects related to divination. What it does is bring her closer to Harry and Dumbledore's viewpoints. Remember Dumbledore did not believe Trelawney had a real gift as a seer until he saw her make a prophesy and he also told Harry in POA that she had now made (only) two real predictions.
Employing the flying metaphor again, Hermione is now skimming the treetops.
With Luna, Hermione is initially dismissive of her ideas (represented by the Quibbler) and worried by her attention to Harry:
(OOTP P236) "People used to believe there were no such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!"
"Well, they were right, weren't they?" said Hermione impatiently. "There weren't any such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack."...
"D'you mind not offending the only people who believe me?" Harry asked Hermione.
"Oh, for heavens's sake, Harry, you can do better than her," said Hermione. "Ginny's told me all about her."
Note: Hermione checks out ALL her opposition, previous, current and potential: Ginny, Cho and Luna.
But by the end Hermione is doing her best to be nice to Luna:
(OOTP P747) "We're going to go on an expedition to Sweden this summer to see if we can catch a Crumple-Horned Snorkack."
Hermione seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then said, "That sounds lovely."
Again a direct change from earlier. Hermione is won over by Luna's helpfulness (the Rita article, the Thestrals, the DOM), the fact that she recognises there could be some wheat among the chaff of Luna's ideas and she perceives Luna's romantic interest is in Ron, not Harry. An R/Hr shipper suggested to me that Hermione is simply being sarcastic with this comment. But that's illogical. If she was simply being sarcastic there would be no internal struggle. The struggle is Hermione trying to be nice and open-minded when her mind is telling her 'Crumple-Horned Snorkacks' are bollocks'.
Some H/G and R/Hr shippers accuse Hermione of being excessively rational, extremely tactless, unemotional (but also at times excessively emotional) and lacking understanding. This scene (below), as Perdita pointed out to me, shows that she is interested in the thestrals and wants to understand them. There's also a nice moment between Harry and Hermione where Hermione realises the implications of what she's said and Harry reassures her immediately that he isn't offended.
(OOTP P398) "Thestrals are fine"...
"Umbridge said they're dangerous," said Ron.
"Well, it's like Hagrid said, they can look after themselves,' said Hermione impatiently, 'and I suppose a teacher like Grubbly-Plank wouldn't usually show them to us before NEWT level, but, well, they are very interesting, aren't they? The way some people can see them and some can't! I wish I could.'
'Do you?' Harry asked her quietly.
She looked suddenly horrorstruck. 'Oh, Harry - I'm sorry - no, of course I don't - that was a really stupid thing to say.'
'It's OK,' he said quickly, 'don't worry.'
Three of the six who go to the DOM (Harry, Luna, Neville) can see them and the others (Ron, Hermione, Ginny) cannot. JKR clearly describes all three who cannot see the thestrals as being nervous and the reason why. Hermione's nervousness is not simply because of flying:
"Ron, Hermione and Ginny, however, were still standing motionless on the spot, open-mouthed and staring.
"What?" he said.
"How're we supposed to get on?" said Ron faintly. "When we can't see the things?"....
She pulled them over to the other Thestrals standing around and one by one managed to help them on to the back of their mount. All three looked extremely nervous as she wound their hands into their horse's mane and told them to grip tightly....
"This is mad," Ron murmured..."Mad if I could just see it-"....
"This is bizarre!" Harry barely heard Ron yell from somewhere behind him, and he imagined how it must feel to be speeding along at this height with no visible means of support.....
Hermione and Ginny touched down on either side of him: both slid off their mounts a little more gracefully than Ron, though with similar expressions of relief at being back on firm ground."
The flight to the DOM shows just how much Harry means to Hermione and what she will do for him.
Hermione initially argues against the idea that Sirius is in danger and is the only one of the six to recognise that it is a trap. Having failed to persuade Harry that logically it's unlikely Sirius has been caught, she manages to get him to agree to check whether Sirius is at home and gives Harry her full support, despite her deep misgivings.
JKR has already shown us how fervently she tried to persuade Harry from breaking into Umbridge's office before: this time Hermione volunteers to go with Harry into it.
Her sacrifice is more profound coming as it does from a position of knowledge, awareness of the risks and disapproval, in comparison with Ginny's attitude. Ginny appears to treat the flight to the DOM as a big adventure.
Hermione never berates Harry or points out the obvious - that she was right and he was wrong, even though Harry's actions cause her to be badly injured and put her life in danger. Harry is left at the end of OOTP knowing he should have trusted her judgement.
5) Conclusions
JKR's intent is clearly not to make Harry and Hermione move towards the more superstitious, at times unquestioning, prejudiced attitudes of Ron (for example his instant acceptance of Umbridge's view of thestrals, his views on house elves, werewolves, half-humans and giants, Grims, love potions and so on).
But she does want them to develop the instinctive, tolerant, open-minded, caring sides of their characters. Not only the love theme but the theme of harmony between the houses is related to this. As Dumbledore says love is "a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." A state beyond only intellectual rationality on the one hand and mere physical attraction on the other, though both elements are part of it.
R/Hr and H/G shippers have sometimes accused Hermione of lacking composure in tight action situations. Some have also used Ginny's flying ability and Hermione's supposed lack of interest and ability at quidditch as a central plank in their argument about why they consider Ginny to be suitable for Harry and Hermione unsuitable.
FP points out that the fact Harry is good at flying and Hermione merely competent works in H/Hr's favour: "Hermione isn't as talented at flying as Harry. It says she needs encouragement to do so. Is it Harry someone who can fly very well. This say that if we say flying is a metaphor for love then Hermione is only be able to love if Harry helps her and vice versa. This puts Ginny in a completely different light that's why H/G can't work because Ginny is able to fly. She doesn't need Harry's help. This implies she is able to help someone else who can't fly alone, probably Neville? That's why H/C couldn't work, just from the metaphor POV."
With the sole exceptions of the scene in OOTP when Grawp lunges for her and short moments of indecision by the Devil's Snare in PS and the Whomping Willow in POA, Hermione has consistently shown she can think and act under pressure. She has been more effective in action scenes than Ron or Ginny. And she can fly at least competently.
She had valid reasons for nervousness on Buckbeak and the thestral but was able to cope. Hermione has also been up high towers at Hogwarts in PS (Norbert), POA (rescuing Sirius) and in OOTP (the astronomy exam) and in the top box at the QWC in GOF. So I don't think she is scared of heights or of flying itself. If we look again at the flying metaphor in relation to Buckbeak, her nervousness suggests she is not afraid of love, just nervous at the process of falling in love. It's an unfamiliar journey with an unknown destination
Part 5) HERMIONE, HARRY AND QUIDDITCH GAMES
We get a lot of information about character development and interaction from these games. There is also some romantic symbolism as I'll point out.
1) PS Gryffindor vs Slytherin
Hermione 'saves' Harry in his very first game as seeker. Quirrell jinxes his broom and Snape mutters a counter curse.
(PS P139) "Harry's broom had given a wild jerk and Harry swung off it. He was now dangling from it, holding on with only one hand.
"He's doing something - jinxing the broom," said Hermione.
"What should we do?"
"Leave it to me."
The first thing to note is JKR does not make this a joint R/Hr effort to save Harry. It's Hermione to the rescue alone. And Hermione wants to do it herself, she doesn't require or want Ron's help.
"It was enough. Up in the air Harry was suddenly able to clamber back onto his broom."
A sentence later and Harry catches the snitch and wins the game for Gryffindor. Nevermind that Hermione was wrong about who was causing the problem, her actions saved Harry and enabled him to win.
2) PS Gryffindor vs Hufflepuff
(PS P163) "Ron didn't answer; Snape had just awarded Hufflepuff a penalty...Hermione, who had all her fingers crossed in her lap, was squinting fixedly at Harry....
"You know how I think they choose people for the Gryffindor team?" said Malfoy...."It's people they feel sorry for. See, there's Potter, who's got no parents, then there's the Weasleys, who've got no money - you should be on the team, Longbottom, you've got no brains."
Both Ron and Neville respond to Draco's taunts but Hermione never takes her eyes off Harry and is oblivious to what they are saying:
"I'm warning you, Malfoy - one more word -"
"Ron!" said Hermione suddenly, "Harry -!"
"What? Where?"
Harry had suddenly gone into a spectacular dive...Hermione stood up, her crossed fingers in her mouth, as Harry streaked towards the ground like a bullet.
"You're in luck, Weasley, Potter's obviously spotted some money on the ground!" said Malfoy.
Ron snapped. before Malfoy knew what was happening, Ron was on top of him, wrestling him to the ground. Neville hesitated, then clambered over the back of his seat to help.
"Come on, Harry!" Hermione screamed, leaping on to her seat to watch as Harry sped straight at Snape - she didn't even notice Malfoy and Ron rolling around under her seat, or the scuffles and yelps coming from the whirl of fists that was Neville, Crabbe and Goyle."
What is the point of this little scene? Why do we need so much detail about how Ron, Hermione and Neville are faring while Harry plays? Why does JKR break away from her usual Harrycentric viewpoint to focus on his friends? Why write it in this way? Why not for instance show Hermione verbally defending Ron and Neville while trying to keep an eye on the game?
What JKR does is show that the only thing important to Hermione here is what Harry is doing, and what he is doing away in the sky takes precedence over what Ron and Neville are doing. And Ron's concentration on Harry is not as great as hers: he allows himself to be distracted by Draco.
Even at this stage, in PS, Hermione is myopic when it comes to Harry. All other boys - Ron, Neville and later Viktor - play second fiddle. Harry is simply more important to her.
This has to be the main point of the scene. What are the alternatives? The need for yet another scene of Malfoy taunting Ron about his family? I very much doubt it. Sure the Malfoy/Weasley fight and Neville's development are aspects of the scene but the central fact is this: Hermione is ONLY focused on Harry. She doesn't look at the others. She is oblivious to them.
"Ron! Ron! Where are you? The game's over! Harry's won! We've won! Gryffindor are in the lead!" shrieked Hermione, dancing up and down on her seat and hugging Parvati Patil in the row in front."
Again JKR emphasises Ron's inability to register on Hermione's radar screen. She has no idea where he is.
Anybody would think Hermione was a huge quidditch fan from this display. In fact it's not until OOTP - and Harry is off the team - that she expresses opinions on the game: (OOTP P507) "That's the trouble with quidditch it creates all this bad feeling and tension between the houses...It's only a game, isn't it?" The PS scene gives an obvious clue as to why she's so mad keen at this stage: "Harry's won! We've won!" It's more Harry's victory than the team's victory.
Hawk points out to me that there's a parallel here between Hermione/Ron in the PS quidditch scene and Hermione/Krum in the way Hermione focuses on Harry when he's achieving something and ignores Ron/Viktor.
In (GOF P438) "Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself...but Hermione brushed the beetle away impatiently and said, "You're well outside the time limit, though, Harry...Did it take you ages to find us?" And "Fleur was clapping very hard, too, but Krum didn't look very happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen."
A scene can tell us more than one thing. The fact that the beetle (Rita) is there is important, but so is the developing character interaction.
3) COS Gryffindor vs Slytherin
Note there's a parallel between Harry catching the snitch here after a bludger smashes into his elbow and breaks his arm, and Viktor catching the snitch at the Quidditch World Cup after a bludger smashes into his face and breaks his nose. My point here is this adds to the extensive array of similarities between Harry and Krum which are rather interesting considering
1) he is a total opposite to Ron
2) Hermione is attracted to Viktor and goes with him to the Yule Ball and
3) Krum becomes jealous and suspicious of her relationship with Harry.
One has to ask why does JKR write it that way?
4) COS Gryffindor vs Hufflepuff
(COS P189) "The voice!" said Harry, looking over his shoulder, "I just heard it again - didn't you?"
Ron shook his head, wide-eyed. Hermione, however, clapped a hand to her forehead.
"Harry - I think I've just understood something! I've got to go to the library!"
And she sprinted away, up the stairs.
"What does she understand," said Harry distractedly, still looking around, trying to tell where the voice had come from.
"Loads more than I do," said Ron, shaking his head.
"But why's she got to go to the library?"
"Because that's what Hermione does," said Ron shrugging. "When in doubt go to the library."
Hermione makes the connection between Harry being able to speak and understand Parseltonge and the fact that no one else can hear the voice. She goes to the library to find out about snakes.
Harry immediately understands, as distracted as he is, that she has caught on to something specific. This an early sign of Harry and Hermione's developing mental rapport, also shown a chapter earlier during the trio's discussions over the Riddle diary.
Ron, however, makes clueless, general comments about Hermione that show his limited understanding of her. The first comment directly compares himself to her, showing he's totally unaware she's hit on something.
"Then she lowered the megaphone and beckoned Harry over to her.
"Potter, I think you'd better come with me..."
Wondering how she could possibly suspect him this time, Harry saw Ron detach himself from the complaining crowd; he came running up to them as they set off towards the castle. To Harry's surprise, Professor McGonagall didn't object.
"Yes, perhaps you'd better come too, Weasley."...
"This will be a bit of a shock," said Professor McGonagall in a surprisingly gentle voice."
McGonagall calls off the match because Hermione has been petrified. Her only interest initially is to take Harry to see Hermione. She does not think about finding Ron and taking him too. Notice that Ron has to come running over to them and join them himself "as they set off towards the castle". They are already on their way.
And then McGonagall is only lukewarm about Ron's presence. She virtually says 'on second thoughts, perhaps you should see her too.'
Why is this? The boys became friends with Hermione at the same time, the three of them have been inseparable ever since. Why single Harry out? Why does JKR write it this way? Why not have it as the film does (no doubt for simplification) and say "you and I must find Mr Weasley. There is something the both of you need to see." A very subtle point like that would just seem confusing on screen.
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that JKR is subtley showing that McGonagall has already seen something special in Harry and Hermione's relationship that Hermione does not have with Ron.
With Harry destined to remain clueless about his deepening feelings for Hermione for several more books, JKR has to find subtle ways, apart from Harry's thoughts, to show this. One of them is to have others sense there's something extra there.
H/Hr shippers could be accused of reading too much into it. Except that
1) there are two other occasions in the books where McGonagall appears to reveal she knows Harry and Hermione have a special relationship
2) a number of other people have been shown to believe the same thing at various times and
3) a number of plot clues that we now know were foreshadowing were written with similar sleight of hand.
For those who say 'well in that case why include Ron at all', I would say the alternative - Harry seeing Hermione alone - would require JKR to change her intention of making a subtle point about McGonagall's perspective.
The other two McGonagall moments are these:
(COS P123): "We were - we were -" Ron stammered, "we were going to - to go and see -"
"Hermione," said Harry. Ron and Professor McGonagall both looked at him....
"we thought we'd sneak into the hospital wing, you know, and tell her the Mandrakes are nearly ready and, er, not to worry."
Professor McGonagall was still staring at him, and for a moment Harry thought she was going to explode, but when she spoke, it was in a strangely croaky voice.
"Of course," she said, and Harry, amazed, saw a tear glistening in her beady eye. "Of course, I realise this has all been hardest on the friends of those who have been...I quite understand. yes Potter, of course you may visit Miss Granger."...As they turned the corner, they distinctly heard Professor McGonagall blow her nose."
(OOTP P224): "Didn't you listen to Dolores Umbridge's speech at the start-of-term feast, Potter?"
"Yeah," said Harry. "Yeah...she said...progress will be prohibited or...well, it meant that...that the Ministry of Magic is trying to interfere at Hogwarts."
Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk and held open the door for him.
"Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate," she said, pointing him out of her office.
Looked at separately these are three subtle, minor moments, but looked at collectively they show McGonagall sees an extra closeness between Harry and Hermione than between Ron and Hermione.
5) POA Gryffindor vs Hufflepuff
This is the most symbolically significant of the quidditch matches. There are also interesting passages that relate to the trio's relationship.
Essentially Harry is going for the snitch when he sees Sirius (as a dog) and the dementors, faints and falls off his broom. Cedric gets the snitch and Hufflepuff win.
It is significant because this is the first and only time that Harry fails to catch the snitch; the first and only time that the team he is playing for loses.
And Cedric is the one who beats him to the snitch just as Cedric is the one who beats him to Cho's affections: Cedric asks Cho - Harry's first 'love' - to the Yule Ball before Harry, he becomes her boyfriend before Harry does.
This is also the first time he hears his mother's last words in his head.
This is the end for Harry's first broomstick, his first key possession. After he falls off it hits the Whomping Willow and is smashed to pieces (rather like a broken relationship?). Hermione shows him the busted bits (rather like how she tells him Cho is with someone else at the end of OOTP?).
And finally, this allows Sirius to buy Harry the Firebolt, a broom Harry thinks when he first sees one in Diagon Alley "he had never wanted anything so much in his whole life." A broom superior to the Nimbus and far more precious to Harry. He gets it and loses it on Christmas Day, thanks to Hermione who guesses correctly that it is from Sirius and has McGonagall check it for jinxes.
Once again we have the recurring symbolic triangle as with Buckbeak: Harry, Hermione and Sirius, whom Harry comes to love as a father/brother figure.
There are a couple of scenes to look at. When the game starts it is raining heavily and Harry can't see properly. As Perdy has pointed out before, there is a pattern in the books and films of Hermione clearing Harry's vision.
(POA P132) "Unless we get the snitch soon, we'll be playing into the night."
"I've got no chance with these on," Harry said exasperatedly, waving his glasses.
At that very moment, Hermione appeared at his shoulder; she was holding her cloak over her head and was inexplicably beaming.
"I've had an idea Harry!" Give me your glasses, quick!"
He handed them to her and, as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said "Impervious!".
"There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. "They'll repel water!"
Wood looked as though he could have kissed her.
"Brilliant!" he called hoarsely after her.
Hermione's spell had done the trick. Harry was still numb with cold, still wetter than he'd ever been in his life, but he could see."
Hermione shows her understanding and concern for Harry in anticipating his problem and working out how to solve it. Rather like the DA coins scene in OOTP she wows those present with her brilliance. Oliver Wood, like Terry Boot in OOTP, is the person to fully appreciate what she does. Harry, who is used to her brilliance, tends to expect it, just as he has come to expect her (in OOTP) to follow him and to be extremely loyal to him. But her help gives Harry fresh hope and it is only the sudden arrival of the dementors that dashes it.
FP points out that: "JKR didn't need to write this. If Harry falls anyway from his broom and loses this game, what's the point iof this scene?"
(POA P135) When Harry comes to in his hospital bed after falling off we get reactions from his quidditch teammates. Fred is described as "extremely white" and Alicia as "shaking". Then we get this reaction from Hermione, some time after Harry awakes and quite a long time after Dumbledore would have ascertained that Harry was concussed, not dead: "Hermione made a small, squeaky noise. her eyes were extremely bloodshot."
JKR emphasises the intensity of Hermione's reaction. She is unable to speak. Then we are told: "After 10 minutes or so, Madam Pomfrey came over to tell the team to leave him in peace.... Ron and Hermione moved nearer to Harry's bed...."Dumbledore was really angry," Hermione said in a quaking voice."
After all this time Hermione finally gets some words out, and she's still struggling to control her emotions, as evidenced by her "quaking voice".
Hermione never shows this sort of intensity over Ron. Ron has also been knocked out - in PS and POA In PS Hermione "screamed but stayed on her square" and then went on with Harry. Neither of them go over to Ron to check he's okay. In POA she screams again. "Harry and Hermione dashed over to Ron. 'What did he do to him?' Hermione whispered." And that's it. She then goes on with Harry once again. In neither case do they even discuss splitting up and one going on and the other going for help.
An R/Hr shipper once told me, in explaining the difference, 'well she was scared that Harry had died when he fell off the broomstick.' True, but she had plenty of time to recover and find out he was just concussed between moving from the pitch to the hospital wing. That's the first thing she would have found out. And also in the PS scene it's clear that she's not sure Ron has ONLY been knocked out:
"Harry and Hermione charged through the door and up the next passageway.
"What if he's -?"
"He'll be all right," said Harry, trying to convince himself. "What do you reckon's next?"
Harry is now so used to Hermione choosing to go with him to support him over staying behind to be with and support Ron that in (OOTP604 Grawp) he pledges his and Hermione's help to Hagrid three times without consulting her. More on that later.
What JKR is showing here is that Hermione displays the concern a normal friend would show for Ron. But her feelings for Harry are deeper and more intense, though in my opinion it isn't until the end of GOF that she realises what that means.
After Ron is attacked by Sirius we hear secondhand from Hagrid that Hermione was "really upset." If that was so significant why didn't JKR write Hermione going over to Ron to say she was glad he was okay after he was attacked? In comparison Hermione breaks her silence towards Harry to speak up when she finds he's thinking about going to Hogsmeade. One friend has just been attacked by a supposed knife-wielding serial murderer, the other friend is thinking of going to Hogsmeade in broad daylight where there's an extremely minor chance that Sirius could see him. Which is more serious?
6) POA Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw
The significance of this game is that Harry meets Cho for the first time. He is in the midst of a dispute with Hermione who has stopped talking to him after he sided with Ron over Scabbers.
(POA P195) "Only one person wasn't joining in the festivities. Hermione, incredibly, was sitting in a corner attempting to read an enormous book... Harry broke away... and went over to her.
"Did you even come to the match?" he asked her.
"Of course I did," said Hermione in a strangely high-pitched voice, not looking up. "And I'm very glad we won and I think you did really well, but I need to read this by Monday."
"Come on, Hermione, come and have some food," Harry said, looking over at Ron and wondering whether he was in a good enough mood to bury the hatchet.
"Anyway...." she glanced over at Ron, too, "he doesn't want me to join in."
There was no arguing with this, as Ron chose that moment to say loudly, "if Scabbers hadn't just been eaten, he could have had some of these Fudge Flies, he used to really like them -"
Hermione burst into tears. Before Harry could say or do anything she had...still sobbing, run towards the staircase to the girls dormitory and out of sight.
"Can't you give her a break?" Harry asked Ron quietly.
"No," said Ron flatly. "If she just acted like she was sorry - but she'll never admit she's wrong, Hermione. She's still acting like Scabbers has gone on holiday or something."
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the fight, Ron should have felt remorse at making Hermione cry and seized the opportunity to make up to her. Instead his hard attitude is followed by Hermione not approaching HIM when he is attacked that very night by Sirius - perhaps her harsh inaction there is a consequence of his unfeeling behaviour to her. For those who subscribe to the fights + tension + insensitivity + hurt = love view of the world, this is a sign about how sensitive Hermione is to Ron's opinion. A far more likely conclusion is that she's hurt by his nastiness as anyone would be if their friend was being nasty to them.
And really, logically, why would Hermione feel goodwill, let alone attraction for Ron after his behaviour when Harry is the one being sensitive to her? Harry, who also jumped on a troll for her - becoming a real hero to her and not just one by reputation - and is also intelligent and not to mention an athletic sports star....
The fights in POA make interesting re-reading after OOTP. What catches Hermione's attention with her questioning, laterally-thinking mind in POA and the Sirius debate in OOTP is the lack of proof of a crime. But she's learnt from the Firebolt incident - the worst period of her friendship with Harry - of the need to persuade and stick with him rather than allowing the relationship to deteriorate to the extent of not talking. Ron is in OOTP a shadow of his former cocky self and Harry is no longer worried about speaking his mind to Ron and risking a fallout and their friendship. (For example Harry's mentioning of Ron's acting the hero comment from GOF in the Sirius debate in OOTP and also the saving "your sister" comment).
With the Firebolt fight and this one it's clear that Harry and Hermione can't stay away from each other or be upset with each other for long. It's really Ron who prolongs both fights and Harry who wants Hermione back with them. In this scene Ron appears to notice Harry trying to draw Hermione back and deliberately raises the subject of Scabbers to let both know that the trio is not going to be restored until he's good and ready.
The situation simply wouldn't occur now post-OOTP. Ron's opinions, influence and presence matter less to both Harry and Hermione than they once did. Ron and Hermione used to compete with each other to influence Harry. Now Harry and Hermione debate with each other and Ron watches on, lending support to one or the other.
Ron's slight distancing from Harry has occurred as
1) Harry's attitude towards the Weasleys as a family has changed and
2) he has grown closer to Hermione.
7) POA Gryffindor v Slytherin
Gryffindor play Slytherin in the quidditch final for the Quidditch Cup.
The most interesting thing about this match is there is a curious connection between Harry helping his team win the Quidditch Cup for the first time in seven years, Viktor losing in the Quidditch World Cup in GOF and Ginny playing seeker for Gryffindor in OOTP.
It's Harry v Draco with Harry on his Firebolt.
Before the match Wood tells Harry that because of the points situation he has to wait until Gryffindor are more than 50 points up before he can catch the snitch. Wood says "only if we're more than 50 points up Harry, or we win the match but lose the cup".
So 50 is effectively zero and as quidditch points multiply by 10, 60 points - a 10 point margin - is Harry's goal.
The Slytherins try to block Angelina scoring the crucial 10 point goal that would allow Harry to go for the snitch but Harry flies straight at them and they scatter allowing Angelina to score. They are 10 points up. Meanwhile Draco sees the snitch and races towards it, Harry gains on him, knocks his arm out of the way and gets the snitch.
So, Harry does what's right for the team, helps the team get the right score, catches the snitch. End result the team wins the match and the cup and Harry's a hero.
Compare that to what Viktor does at the QWC.
His opponent sees the snitch and Viktor (like Harry) beats him to it.
His team are well behind on the scoreboard but by Viktor catching the snitch he ensures his team only lose by - wait for it - 10 points.
Krum choses to catch the snitch to win his own personal battle with his opposition seeker even though by doing so he ends the game, his group as a whole loses. His team loses the match and the cup but he's a hero.
Ginny does EXACTLY what Viktor did.
(OOTP P507) "The miracle was that Gryffindor only lost by 10 points. Ginny managed to snatch the snitch from right under Hufflepuff seeker Summerby's nose, so that the final score was 240 to 230....
[Harry] was quite impressed by Ginny's performance but he knew if he had been playing he could have caught the snitch sooner...if Ginny hadn't hesitated, she might have been able to scrape a win for Gryffindor."
Two seekers for love who miss out on the prize they're after? It also reminds me a lot of Hermione's reaction to mistaking ehwaz for eihwaz: "It could be the one mistake that makes the difference between a pass and a fail."
8) Quidditch scenes in OOTP
First of all why is Ron worried that Harry will "laugh" at him if he finds out he is trying out for Gryffindor? Why is Ron "immensely relieved" when Harry says he thinks it's a great idea? Ron has concerns about his status in relation to those of his two best friends. It seems clearer after reading OOTP that the Yule Brawl was largely sparked by Ron's jealousy over WHO Hermione went with - Viktor, a famous quidditch player, he laughed at the idea of her going with Neville - mixed with the kind of possessiveness he showed towards Ginny and her boyfriends in OOTP. There is probably some attraction by Ron towards Hermione as well. When he has a bit of limelight himself he's immediately keen to branch out from the trio (after the Second Task in GOF, after his quidditch win in OOTP) in seeking attention.
When Ron makes the team, Hermione is pleased for him as a friend would be, but she's not overly excited. In fact she falls asleep:
(OOTP P248) "I can't believe it - where's Hermione gone?"
"She's there," said Fred, who...pointed to an armchair by the fire. Hermione was dozing in it.
"Well she said she was pleased when I told her," said Ron, looking slightly put out.....
"I'm going to bed. Tell Ron for me, will you?"
"Oh no," said Hermione, looking relieved, "if you're going that means I can go too, without being rude. I'm absolutely exhausted and I want to make some more hats tomorrow. Listen you can help me if you like..."
Harry looked into her face, which was shining with glee, and tried to look as though he was vaguely tempted by this offer.
"Er...no, I don't think I will, thanks," he said. "Er not tomorrow. I've got loads of work to do..."
And he traipsed off to the boys' stairs leaving her looking slightly disappointed."
I mean, could JKR make Hermione's preferences any clearer? Ron's big moment, he makes the team, she falls asleep and then feels she has to stick around out of politeness. She says she's exhausted but then her face shines with "glee" when she asks Harry to spend some time alone with her. She picked the wrong vehicle - house elves - for that, but she'll work that out.
FP notes that there's an opposite parallel here with Hermione's attitude to Harry: "JKR chose to show Hermione asleep as Ron has his best moment. Look at PoA where Hermione was indeed more than once tired and on the edge. JKR didn't write that she was asleep as Harry won, did she?"
In POA Hermione goes to a quidditch game when she isn't even talking to Harry.
Hermione has a totally realistic, not to say negative view of Ron's quidditch abilities. She doesn't expect him to be any good at it and, for a long time, he isn't. Why? Because chess is the only thing he's shown a particular talent for?
(OOTP P506) "Has Ron saved a goal yet?" asked Hermione.
(OOTP P264) "How was practise?" asked Hermione rather coolly.
"It was -" Harry began.
"Completely lousy," said Ron in a hollow voice.
She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt.
"Well it was only your first one," she said consolingly, "it's bound to take time to -"
Ron's words and mood tell her she was right, despite her protestations later. She then feels PITY for him and tries to raise his spirits with sympathy but he takes out his woes on her. Then:
"I'm going to get started on some homework," said Ron angrily and stomped off ...
Hermione turned to Harry.
"Was he lousy?"
"No," said Harry loyally.
Hermione raised her eyebrows.
"Well I suppose he could've played better," Harry muttered, "but it was only the first training session, like you said."
A very telling scene occurs after Harry, Fred and George are banned from Gryffindor:
(OOTP P507) "That's the trouble with quidditch," said Hermione absentmindedly..."it creates all the bad feeling and tensions between the houses."
She looked up, and caught Fred, George and Harry all staring at her with expressions of mingled disgust and incredulity on their faces.
"Well it does!" she said impatiently. "It's only a game isn't it?"
"Hermione," said Harry, shaking his head, "you're good on feelings and stuff, but you just don't understand about quidditch."
"Maybe not," she said darkly..."but at least my happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability."
Ummm...okay... this is the girl who, for example, "had all her fingers crossed in her lap, was squinting fixedly at Harry" then had "her crossed fingers in her mouth", then "screamed, leaping on to her seat to watch as Harry sped" towards the snitch in just ONE game in which Harry played. Yet now it's "only a game". Yet now that Harry is the one who is off the team and Ron is the one who is on it - their roles reversed - she certainly doesn't feel the same way.
Some people would argue that her views have changed since then and this scene is simply a reflection of that. But she was rather excited with/intense about the wizards' sport in COS, POA, at the QWC (where it says Hermione is dancing and waving her arms in the air when Ireland score) and with Harry's flying display at the First Task in GOF. Suddenly her change of attitude occurs once Harry is off the team and Ron is on it. Even if this change is only to do with her developing a social conscience in GOF, that's still a book and a half ago. Plenty of time to make this comment.
Grace points out that in this scene:
(OOTP P403) "Hermione and Ginny sat down opposite them wearing red-and-gold scarves, gloves, and rosettes."
"Sort of opposite of what Hermione says in the 'Seen and Unforeseen' Chapter. How can Hermione's opinion of Quidditch change so drastically in a matter of months when she's obviously been enjoying Quidditch for years?"
9) OOTP Gryffindor vs Slytherin
This is Ron's first game and Harry's last, at least for the year.
Hermione's kiss for Ron is all about her pity for him and her desire to distract him - from his nervousness and from seeing the Slytherin badges.
Harry compares the way Ron looks to how he appeared belching slugs in COS. We get a couple of pages on how desperate Ron's mood is and how Harry, Ginny, Hermione and Luna try to boost his spirits. Then:
(OOTP P358) "As they rose from the table, Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry's arm she drew him to one side.
"Don't let Ron see what's on those Slytherin badges," she whispered urgently.
Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desperate.
"Good luck, Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek.
"And you, Harry -"
And yes I'm sure JKR had a chuckle as she typed that last line. But personally, because it doesn't directly say Hermione kissed Harry as well, I will never argue that she does. Some R/Hr shippers used to say Hermione could have kissed Ron at the end of GOF as well, 'but we just didn't see it.' The "and you" here could merely mean "and good luck to you as well".
But there is nothing romantic about this kiss. Hermione kisses him - while still holding on to Harry - despite her unwillingness to encourage him (the perfume, the letter to Viktor) in a romantic sense, because he's in dire straits and it's the right thing to do as a friend. And JKR still manages to show a bit of H/Hr intimacy: Harry and Hermione are almost like parents with their child on the first day of school.
It's interesting that Harry and Hermione feel comfortable helping and protecting each other at various times, but it's very difficult to imagine Hermione clinging to Ron and whimpering in his arms as she does with Harry in the Grawp forest scene, or of Ron slipping into the Harry role of comforter and protector. Ron is capable of saying comforting things at times, but there isn't the same equality in his relationship with Hermione as there is between Harry and Hermione.
10) OOTP Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw
JKR chooses to write Harry and Hermione going off and having another adventure together while Ron is having his day in the sun. I've argued before that Hermione did not have to go off with Harry.
If Ron was truely Hermione's priority, she could have easily said 'D'you mind if I stay and support Ron.' In fact Harry promises his and Hermione's help to Hagrid three times in this sequence without consulting her at all and knowing her response without having to ask:
(OOTP P603) "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come."
"Of course we'll help you," said Harry at once,. "What do you want us to do?"
"Well..." said Harry, already bound by his promise. "We'll try, Hagrid."
This is a direct consequence of all those scenes in the past where Hermione has chosen to go with Harry, to spend time with him, to support him over Ron. Harry just expects and assumes that she will again. But if JKR had written those earlier scenes in a different way with Hermione showing more interest and concern for Ron, then this scene would have been different. It would have at least made Harry check what she wanted to do first. Maybe he would have said 'you don't need to come if you don't want to, if you want to stay and support Ron.' Sure Hagrid is in a bad way and obviously needs help and is important to both Harry and Hermione. But all that means is that Hermione is putting both Harry AND Hagrid before Ron's needs. And yet according to R/Hr shippers, Hermione returns Ron's feelings? She has a crush on him?
"No?" said Hermione in a hushed voice.
"Yes!" said Harry loudly.
"Harry! Hermione!" yelled Ron.. "We did it! We won!"
They beamed up at him as he passed."
They are pleased for their friend but there isn't anything special about Hermione's reaction that would suggest crush-like feelings for Ron.
Remember this is the biggest thing Ron has achieved in FIVE years at Hogwarts. The only other things that come close are the chess game and knocking out the troll in PS. In comparison it doesn't take much for Hermione to get hugely excited about things that Harry achieves. And yet he has so much success, wouldn't it therefore be more special when Ron achieves something because it happens so rarely?
Just to give one example, she seemed at least as excited over the Quibbler article, for which she kept praising Harry although it was her idea, as over Ron's success:
(OOTP P513) "For some reason, every time Hermione caught sight of one of these signs she beamed with pleasure. "What exactly are you so happy about?" Harry asked her...."they bombarded me with questions," Hermione told Harry, her eyes shining."
An R/Hr shipper has questioned whether the use of the Weasley is our King song and Harry's dream about Ron and Hermione wearing crowns is foreshadowing. It's a possibility. When Hermione starts to show signs of returning Ron's feelings - what feelings there are - I'll reconsider it.
"Harry had a troubled night's sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body; watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns."
What had happened that day? He saw a pic of his parents in the order, Molly sobbed over the 'dead bodies' of her family and Ron and Hermione were made prefects i.e. gained titles. Sounds to me like Harry, on this occasion, was dreaming about the day's events.
On royal symbolism: why does JKR make Ron's big moment at the end of the quidditch match read like a sombre funeral procession?
And is this scene simply a chess game....
"The white queen turned her blank face towards him.
"Yes..." said Ron softly, "it's the only way...I've got to be taken."
"No!" Harry and Hermione shouted.
"That's chess!" snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me - that leaves you free to checkmate the king, Harry!"
....Or does it have added significance now we know of a queen (Bellatrix) at the side of the king (Voldemort)?
When Harry and Hermione return from the forest, JKR manages to turn Ron's big moment into an example of H/Hr togetherness (not for the first time). They look up at him as he is borne AWAY from them by the crowd. Then they look at each other and make their way in alone together. Both have a last look back at the forest. This togetherness continues with the scene the next day when they resolve to tell Ron about Grawp: "They persuaded him to join them in revising under the beech tree."
Ron appears to relish, not only all the attention, but the fact that it's a victory he has achieved without Harry's help:
"I'm just glad we won, that's all."
"Yeah," said Ron slowly, savouring the words, "(I)we won. Did you see the look on Chang's face when Ginny got the snitch right out from under her nose?"
Why the special emphasis (italicised by JKR) on the "we won" ? Isn't Ron taking the conventional collective "we" of Harry's - we meaning Gryffindor - and making it a more exclusive "we" - we meaning Ron, Ginny and the other team members, not Harry? And to follow that immediately with a dig at Cho, whom he knows Harry has a crush on.... Ron is clearly enjoying his new fame and the fact that it has occurred without any connection to Harry, or to his older brothers. In fact I suspect the "we" specifically means Ron and Ginny because he immediately follows it with a mention of Ginny's triumph over Cho, suggesting he has just been thinking of Ginny.
"You didn't watch?" he said faintly looking from one to the other. "You didn't see me make any of those saves?"
"We'll - no," said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand towards him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave - we had to."
"Yeah?" said Ron, whose face was growing rather red. "How come?"
They quickly supply Ron with the answer. But the fact that Hermione anticipates his anger and the fact that it's quick to spark (his face "growing rather red") is rather reminiscent of Harry's hurt and suspicion about why Ron and Hermione had got together without him at the beginning of the book.
11) Conclusions
The matches clearly show that Hermione's feelings are far more intense towards Harry than Ron. Quidditch is important while Harry is playing. JKR also employs interesting symbolism around some of the games.
119. What does Ron want by Nia
I think in all the efforts to dissect the new bank of quotes and prove that one’s preferred ship is the one that JKR is writing; many of us have completely forgotten that what we are discussing here is a work of literature.
Events are specifically written by the author for specific purposes. Although several R/Hr shippers have gone to great lengths on several occasions to explain the possible impact a Ron and Hermione pairing could have on the storyline, none of them stand up to a careful and unbiased scrutiny. If one takes off his or her shipper glasses for a moment, it is apparent that Ron and Hermione are not representative enough of any two factions either within the wizarding word or out of it to reunite anything, symbolically or otherwise.
So, for what purpose would JKR write the interactions between Ron and Hermione at all? (Personally, I don’t think Ron’s actions are entirely precipitated by jealousy. I have a few theories I’ve advanced before on these boards which were never discussed in any depth-but that is another post.) My best guess is that JKR is using the Ron/Hermione interactions as a red herring to distract from Harry and Hermione.
Quote:
|Originally Posted by DoublePotion The idea, that Hermione and Harry would eventually get together is by far the most boring for me. |
Yes, without challenges it would be somewhat boring to read. The reason why we see so many romances in literature written with this so-called romantic tension, is that for a story to be interesting, it must have challenges or questions for the readers to keep turning pages. In romance, the challenge could involve a rival or an external impediment to the romance or a problem between the two potential lovers themselves. I do believe that in order to provide this challenge to the surety of Harry and Hermione happening , JKR has written in the Ron and Hermione question. We are supposed to wonder. This keeps us turning pages. If it were completely obvious that one ship or another would indeed happen, then there would be no discussions in this area and far less anticipation for the coming books, plain and simple.
Now, as far as why no overt evidence for a romance between Harry and Hermione: Harry is just a boy, how is he supposed to know and understand the ramifications of real love or even his own heart at 11, 12, 13, 14 or even 15? As we grow, we are supposed to understand ourselves better--to understand our own hearts and to be increasingly intuitive about our own feelings. Had JKR written an obvious H/Hr in Book One, even if it was cute and age-appropriate, she would have trivialized it, as I believe Ron and Hermione’s relationship, (should it indeed ever happen), is already trivialized by pettiness. In order to see what is true, one must first see what is false. Harry has just been allowed to realize that what he thought he felt for Cho was substanceless. Love is SO MUCH MORE than attraction-it is one reason I totally despise current television fare and films that so degrade it into a “sexual dance” based on looks and hormones. Love involves many layers of feelings and connections that are so very far beyond simple attraction. You simply must have experiences to fully understand. I believe JKR is writing those kinds of experiences for Harry.
Best friends falling in love? It’s been done before. So what? Who better to fall in love with than someone who knows you inside out, is privy to all your faults and weakness, who will support you when no one else will, who is always there for you, who is not afraid to be honest with you and who has taken you completely as they found you? I, for one, think there are not enough stories about substantive, respectful relationships between young people. IMO. JKR is handling the whole Harry and Hermione thing quite masterfully. It is developing into a beautiful story about two displaced outsiders finding their best compliment in each other. It has deep symbolic significance for the story and it would fit quite seamlessly into the plot as it is being written, no matter what ultimate impact it has on the storyline.
The big problem in creating a Ron and Hermione pairing having any importance to the plot and/or having any symbolic implications whatsoever is that no substantive ground work has been laid for its eventual development. There are no intellectual underpinnings for JKR to call to the fore. The activity between Ron and Hermione, with a few exceptions, is painted in monotones. Although we have seen the two cooperating in numerous activities involving a common short term aim, the rest of the time they have been involved in either petty bickering or uneasy truces. Ron's disapproval of Hermione is based in the very things that make her unique. Their arguments, which some interpret as hormone-induced tension and jealousy, have no depth. Because the relationship has been written without substance, the most we can hope from it (should JKR decide to write it) is an amusing little sub-plot to relieve a symbol-heavy climax to the septology.
Were there true intellectual tension as well as the appearance of this aberrant form of sexual tension, I could truly see how JKR could imbue this paring with some significance. Were Ron and Hermione’s arguments truly reflective of the dissimilarity of beliefs in the wizarding and non-magical worlds, the relationship would have genuine symbolic implications. Hermione’s causes, however, do not reflect the ideals of any segment of the WW. House elf enslavement seems to be a given. Even Mrs. Weasley, who eschews muggle bating and muggleborn discrimination, wishes she had one to do the ironing. Instead, Ron and Hermione argue over anything and everything. Ron disparages her intellect and her causes and she disparages his lack of perception. This has continued unabated for five books now, as is evidenced by the 'intellectually stimulating' “did not, did too” argument between the two of them as they left the DA room in OoP.
If there are no implications for the septology, what purpose does developing this relationship serve?
I don’t in any wise slight JKR’s writing ability (except in the case of her uncharacteristically poor development of Ginny’s character,) but she has set the thematic and symbolic parameters herself. She has not expanded their relationship to any great extent and, as things stand, I simply cannot see how a cogent argument could be made for anything but it being banal and fluffy filler material or for comic relief. We, the reading audience, would not even get to see most of it unless JKR turns Harry into some kind of voyeur who is constantly intruding on their most private moments.
Flying Phoenix is absolutely right in my opinion, what we are reading is the remarkable story of one boy--Harry Potter. All we know of the characters around him are how Harry perceives them. We have none of Ron or Hermione’s interiority to help us define them or to understand them on deeper, more esoteric levels. At least that would give their romance some emotional substance. To create a romance between them of any significance would mean JKR would have to pull us away from Harry to a certain extent. This makes no sense from a literary standpoint.
WHAT RON WANTS or WHY IN THE WORLD DOES IT HAVE TO BE HERMIONE?
I have seen very nice R/Hr posters in other forums claim that Hermione will help motivate Ron and he will help her calm down and not take things so seriously. Many seem to think that Hermione needs to take a big intellectual tumble, in other words, be humbled, before she will be able to see Ron’s worth. In almost all cases where I have heard a pairing of Ron and Hermione discussed, it entails a significant paradigm shift for one or both of them.
Then, there is that celebrated ‘tension.’ It seems, even for many R/Hr shippers that the perceived tension is all in the physical attraction department and there is no intellectual challenge or compatibility on any level, unless of course, Hermione is ‘knocked down a peg or two,’ the top-lofty, little know-it-all.
I believe Ron to be a genuinely good person. He is unquestionably intelligent and capable and his placement in Gryffindor attests to his bravery and chivalry, but two people cannot walk together unless they have a mutual destination in mind. In real life, we cannot, if we understand human nature in any capacity, ask someone to amend themselves to suit our ideals, why should we ask any less of fictional characters we want to ring true? The bigger question to be considered in all of this shipping debate is where is Ron’s focus? In other words, what does Ron want?
Ron wants to be recognized and afforded accolades without putting in the personal effort that assures success. The honors he has received up until GoF have been the result of his close association with Harry Potter. In OoP, for the first time, we see Ron achieving something entirely on his own-helping Gryffindor win the Quidditch cup. (The Prefect appointment was by default and cannot be counted as a personal accomplishment) And even here, we do not see the emphasis placed as much on practice, hard work and dedication as on his not believing in his own natural abilities. In fact, Ron’s first inclination is to quit when he doesn’t see immediate results. Ron doesn’t like to challenge himself and you get the distinct impression from the Career Choices chapter in OoP, that he wants a job that will pay him the most for the least amount of effort. It sounds terrible when it is written out this way, but a great many modern kids are like that, I think, especially at fifteen, unless they have discovered a personal passion early in life. It is human nature to want to make things easy for ones self. People tend to only work hard and enthusiastically in occupations and for ideas they are passionate about.
Ron is a member of a poor, but well-known wizarding family and seems to have the family values firmly ingrained. He hates dark magic and wizarding world prejudices against halfbloods and muggles, yet he sees nothing wrong with the enslavement of house elves. Ron doesn’t like dramatic changes nor does he like to consider ideas that conflict with the values he grew up with. He doesn’t seem to be guided by natural curiosity or by any desire to approach or understand the unknown. I reference his reactions to Riddle’s diary in CoS as an example. He keeps missing the larger picture because he sees things from within the wizarding world.
This is purely speculative, of course, but Ron seems to be the type who would be quite happy with a good, loving wife, a comfortable home and a decent job which gives him occasional recognition, kids who adore him, and not too many changes.
Ron, as he currently is, would not be up to the formidable challenge of someone like Hermione. Hermione has made a project of herself. Not only has she consistently challenged her own intellect, but also her perceptions of those around her and managed to develop a social conscience. Each year we see development and changes in her. I think that even more than Harry himself, Hermione changes and grows as a person. She thrives on intellectual challenges and is constantly pushing herself to learn and to understand more.
In the course of the five books, we have seen Ron disparage Hermione’s intellect and belittle the causes she believes in. We have seen her, conversely become rude and rather scathing to Ron when he was simply bein himself. Where, may I ask, is there a point of commonality other than Harry or the Order’s Resistance Movement in OoP? And even concerning Harry, Hermione has a keener insight and deeper perception, even though Ron is supposed to be Harry’s best friend. In the "Occlumency" chapter (Ch. 24) of OoP, it is Hermione who sends Ron to see about Harry after his first Occlumency lesson. It is she who perceives that Harry’s mind might be susceptible to Voldemort’s influences right after his lesson.
Ron, it appears, although he cares for Harry, has been steadily distancing himself, if not physically, then emotionally from his friend. In all truth, I don’t see this as such a bad thing since Ron will never become his best self; never learn who he truly is unless he is out from under Harry’s shadow. This also holds true for his relationship with Hermione as well. Ron has been written as an individual with pronounced self-esteem issues. Part of it is due to adolescence, part due to his family’s financial situation and part to the extraordinary success of his older brothers while they were at school, but the greater part, I think, has to do with Ron himself. How could he possibly have a girlfriend who is the cleverest witch in the school without feeling even more inadequate than he already does? We have been given enough canon evidence that while Ron has expressed admiration for Hermione’s intellect, he has no patience or respect for the ideas she finds intellectually challenging and stimulating.
No, Ron does not want to be Harry, but he wants to be admired and recognized as an individual. Hermione would always overshadow him and he would eventually come to resent her for that, especially, as many members of the Heron and Chocolate seem to assert, “Hermione nags too much.”
So we will have Ron with this brilliant girlfriend who outshines him in nearly every area, whose values and ideas are diametrically opposed to his own and who is fixated on the well-being of a boy whose shadow Ron is attempting to come out from under. Do you really think they are suited? I don’t. I think Ron needs someone who can put his well-being first and admire him for who he is and encourage him to become his own best self. He needs someone with whom he can share values and ideals and who makes him feel that even if the world is against him, she will be in his corner. I don’t think that someone is Hermione.
H/Hr: Artistic Subtlety
Author: Gillian Halliwell (extracted from the now defunct Portkey forums)
Cheers folks!
I’ve been lurking here for a while, can’t even remember when I did my last post.
However, this I just posted it in my LJ and it seemed to me it could somewhat fit in here.
Have a look and tell me what you think,
Last Friday, I went with some friends to watch PoA, mostly because it was the only thing worth seeing that half our group hadn’t seen (two of four). So, I’m sitting next to this friend of mine, who’s not into HP, has never read the books and such. So she’s always like “What was that?” or “Who’s that?” or “What’s he doing there?” and the sort, and then I answered in a low voice until she’d understood and kept going (Blame Alfonso for that, I mean, people who didn’t read the books didn’t REALLY understand anything).
So, in one of those, she turned to me and said about Hermione “But she seems to always want to be with Ron, doesn’t she?”
And of course shippy Gilly immediately said “Are you insane? She isn’t, and besides, wait until the time turner thingy” or something like that (can’t remember, too many shippy adrenaline).
Then she said, “I mean, it’s what it seems to me, she wants to be with Ron”
And I said, “No! She wants to be with Harry!”
And she answered, “If she does, then great! I want her to! But I don’t think she is!”
So, that got me thinking; what is in the H/Hr relationship that we see and that other people, at first view – to say it in a way – doesn’t?
Then I started digging into our own ponderings on the H/Hr relationship, and realised something that, up until a certain point seems really significant.
There’s an artistic subtlety in H/Hr!
Take a look at ourselves, for an example,
There’s Nic, who plays the Piano.
There’s Sarah, who sings. (And here, I think Joyce does too, correct me if I’m wrong, sorry!)
There’s Vic and Maria, who draw
there’s me, Ballet dance and such.
There’s Gil, who, as himself says “has always been a frustrated writer, now is an established fan fiction author’
There’s Jim and the photo thing….
And if any of you are involved in the arts (or the design, which I find counts) and I haven’t listed you, list yourself!
So? What’s the pattern? What does this have to do with H/Hr?
Simply, artists see something in the world that other people doesn’t.
When performing arts, the artists develop a certain sensibility to certain things about life that other people just doesn’t see!
That’s the reason why you’ll always find it easier to fill a Stadium for a football game, that fill a theatre (half the capacity) for Opera!
There lies the thing!
The whole globalization thingy, it doesn’t imply to globalise the artistic sensibility. Actually, because that’s something that can’t possibly be done.
Two artists wouldn’t experience the same feeling when watching “Pierrot’s Death” from Matisse, but they will understand the meaning! While other people, who wouldn’t place the feeling first, wouldn’t get the meaning!
Do I make myself clear?
Put it like this; you can have the whole world reading Harry Potter. And they will all follow the story, and keep with it.
BUT! Only those who are able to experience the feelings of the story will get to the real meaning. Only the people who can actually put on Harry’s shoes and feel, before attempting to understand will get the true meaning!
Harry Potter is not a story about facts, is about feelings! This is explained in PS!!! “Books and cleverness… there are more important things, friendship, bravery and…” (Love of course, in case someone didn’t figure)
This is why, whenever she gives a fact, JKR finds it somewhat “obligatory” to fold it with a feeling.
For example, notice JKR dedicated two to three pages (sorry, no book!) in OotP to the facts of the Prophecy, BUT she dedicated a whole new chapter to Harry’s feelings with regards to it.
The fact is important, but the feelings behind it, the feelings because of it, are more important; and here, that’s what we see, that other people doesn’t. The majority of the people goes for the fact. To get the feeling you need that kind of artistic sensibility that only artists, INCLUDING JKR!, or someone who has a heart to appreciate arts posses.
This confirms my reasoning behind the statement that R/Hr’s don’t understand Harry’s or Hermione’s feelings, actually not even their worshiped Ron’s! They feel attracted by the hook figure that’s Ron.
Because, when you see it like that, Ron is the normality of the Trio. Harry, the incredibly brave, Hermione, the incredibly clever… and Ron!
So he’s the hook; he’s a figure to make people feel they understand something that may seem simple, but actually isn’t!
Because, H/Hr is not simple!
This is because Harry Potter is not a commercial book! It’s not a book written to please anyone, but the author, who will satisfy only her need to satisfy the art she feels inside and all around her (A bit like what Kandinsky said). Nevertheless, Harry Potter contains a character that is commercial, not because it was designed as such, but because along the way, Ron has turned into someone who defies the whole true meaning behind the story. He’s the fact vs. feeling metaphor.
When you don’t have the ability or the disponibility to feel any of the character’s feelings, you get hooked by Ron. That’s his function!
Now, if you do get into the character’s shoes and feel what Harry feels, and you are able to detect the clues to Hermione’s feelings on the text, on the words such as “briskly, business-like” and the sort, then you will find what the true meaning is.
It all goes down to H/Hr!
I think this is the reason why I never liked R/Hr, for the lack of something I’ve just come to acknowledge as “artistic subtlety”
However, I find this as the only explanation for something that, to qoute a memorable unfriendly kid over there, responds to one of those “many things that puzzle me in life”
We guess who?
Love, and lots of Pumpkin Pie to all,
~Gilly
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