Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn - Bible Students
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
All Sunday-Resurrectionists Refuted
Wednesday and Friday Crossites
Thrashed Shredded and Trashed
Part Eight
Simulacra
Reg, Alex, Rubies etc.
27 01 15
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
All Sunday-Resurrectionists Refuted
Wednesday and Friday Crossites Thrashed Shredded and Trashed
Part Eight
27 01 15
biblestudents@imaginet.co.za
ISBN
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|Web |Page |About |
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|p180 |5 |First Night |
|p181 |17 |Suffering Pascha |
|p182 |28 |Last Supper Old and Leaven of Life |
|p183 |31 |First day unleavened bread |
|p184 |48 |Matthew 28:1 Scholars John 19:39 “First Night” |
|p185 |52 |John 19:42 Joseph Work on sabbaths |
|p186 |66 |‘first sabbath’, ‘weeks’ |
|p187 |88 |Prepare Preparation |
|p188 |96 |Two days Six days Mark 14:1 Matthew 26:2 “The First Night” “High day” |
|p189 |110 |Bone Day “came to him” Deut. 31 “day before IN” “Shabbath Shabbathon” |
|p190 |122 |Meatless Meal Burial Day Grave John 20:1 |
|p191 |137 |Bone-Day First Night John 19:39 Prepare passover |
|p192 |148 |First Sheaf Fiftieth day on Sunday Crucifixion in John 19:31 |
|p193 | |After Sabbath dawn on First Day Idiom Luke 24 |
|p194 |172 |Mark 16:9 Matthew 28:1 First sightings Visits at tomb Same event All gospels |
|p195 |192 |On fourteenth // on fifteenth Daniel 9 |
|p196 |200 |Seventieth week |
|p197 |204 |Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies Reformed Protestant Faith Late on |
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|Addendum |208 |Religious Forums The Lost Passover |
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|Conclusion |250 | |
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Reg:
The last supper was not a passover meal it was the night before passover Christ has to die before the passover the disciples won’t have the passover the next night on the 15th when Christ gave up his life after sunset He had to fulfil Ex 12 He would not give up His life until then He had that power
I have several times explained the last supper but never comment the old covenant was to pass away the next day when Christ died and at the last he introduced the new covenant it was not a passover supper the bread represented His broken body for us the wine that night would never be unfermented represented his sinlessness and the washing of the feet represented humility which SDA,s still keep that we are all equals an represented his sinlessness and the washing of the feet represented humility which SDA,s still keep that we are all equals and should treat each other the same Read John 13 and 1 Cor 11:23-34 Christ spent that supper telling them that he was not going to be with them and how to remember Him till He comes again
Alex:
Agreed but would be better said as “the Last Supper was not a Passover meal - it was the night before Feast of the Passover/ULB 24 hours before - Christ had to die in the afternoon on 14 Nisan before the Feast of Passover. The disciples, though disheartened with the death of their Messiah probably had the Passover the next night on the 15th - hours after Christ gave up his life before sunset - on the 14 Nisan.
GE:
Alright with a few questions for you, Alex,
Don’t you mean, later, instead of before? Naturally the disciples were .
One must take into account the disciples’ utter confusion and the chaos caused by the natural disasters of the “darkness”[1], “earthquake”[2], “rent veil”[2], “opened graves”[3], and fallen-in door-lintel of the portal into the sanctuary[4]. So the disciples could impossible have had their The past week I saw it happen with my own ears having learned of this --- inevitable --- evil from bad to worse.
Subtitle proposed for this discussion ...
‘Out of Legalism into Idolatry’ – “You superstitiously worship
days, months, seasons, years, I am afraid I have bestowed my
labour on you in vain.” Galatians 4:10,11.
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Reg:
You and Alex also Rubie cannot put the passover week
together LK 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.---is the burial of Jesus V54 is THE PASSOVER SABBATH John 19:14 the women spoken of here were with Joseph helping in the burial sun had already set when Joseph went to Pilot Mat 27:57, Mark 15:42
GE:
as defined and identified and stipulated and proven, “mid-afternoon ending towards the Sabbath” which began as defined and identified and stipulated and proven in John 19:31 and parallels Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57—not, in at least 30 hours before, the previous morning “6 o’clock a.m. the Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER”!!
Now you, quote directly, ! I tell in the Name of the Christ I am supposed to see in you, to QUOTE it!
Reg:
LK 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Mark 15:45-47 Now you three have a large problem Sabbath had begun LK 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.---Jesus already in the grave so to you this is Sabbath Did they have Gentile shops then that were open for business on Sabbath
GE:
Why would they need shops? To “prepare spices” they already HAD?
is not to me, . That’s you, lying about me. according to all four Gospels, particularly John 19:31, “was great day of sabbath THAT DAY” of the passover—, “which is The Fore-Sabbath … The Preparation” the Sixth Day of the week.
Reg:
MK 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.---has your answer compare with--- LK 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.---Mark 16:1 when the sabbath was passed they bought the spices now that has to be Friday because… LK 23:56 that after they had prepared them they rested another Sabbath the 7th day V56 Friday was the day in between two sabbaths when they bought and prepared the ointments Also Mary Magdalene was with them if it had been after the 7th day Sabbath you can write of John 20:1-17 from just before sunset Sabbath Mt 28:1 when she found the tomb empty and meeting Jesus probable an hour after sunset because Mark 16:1 she was with the women who you claim prepared them before Sabbath Friday when it was after the passover Sabbath on Friday the ointments were bought and prepared then they rested the 7th day sabbath Luke 23:56
Gerard and whoever else it may concern if you reject Christ Law the 10C because it was Him at creation and Sinai you have written your name out of the book of life Call me a liar and I will post thus says the Lord on every one of your posts to prove you don’t believe the word of God the way you treat others is more than enough to do that how they see you there is a Hymn do others see Jesus in me how they see Jesus in you Why don’t you put in a post asking others it could give you eternal life Now show me were Luke 23:54 in my Zondervan’s Greek is not right it was Thursday a Sabbath not the 7th the 7th day Sabbath
GE:
it is you, Reg, who make of Zondervan’s a lying witness because it’s you, saying Zondervan’s says ! Reg is the lying, false, witness! Concocted of lies upon lies upon lies the SDA pastor Reg declares, . No word of truth! That's it. For the umpteenth time I have done with Reg. But this time it's final. I have done with Reg as I have done with all SDAs and all Wednesday and Friday crossites. I cannot think of anything, more to say about this non-issue the WC theory is.
Reg:
Gerhard you say John 12:1 is not Friday 6 days before
Passover V2 says they made Him a supper in between was after Sabbath, Saturday night So Friday was the 9th Sabbath the 10th Sunday evening after Sabbath the 11th and all that happens that night supper Mary Anointed Jesus Judas betrayal
The next day Sunday He rode triumphantly into Jerusalem =Sunday 11th Now you have Him arriving at Jerusalem that day, so do the first 3 Gospels Then everything John wrote from John 10:22 to John 12:11 is a lie there is a lie there is a problem here Mathew, Mark, and Luke have the walk from Jericho to Jerusalem in the spring arriving on Sunday the 11th but John from--- JN 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.---John 12:1 is in the winter time making His walk from Jericho 3 months earlier and John wrote his Gospel 20 years later and filled in what the first 3 gospel writers left out
Sunday 11 Jesus was in the temple at sun set beginning ot Monday Mark 11:11
Monday 12 first day in temple
Tuesday 13 last day in temple
Tuesday 13 on the Mount of Olives
Tuesday---MK 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
MK 14:2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
Passover on 15th Thursday
Ex 12:3 the 10th choosing the lamb Sabbath V6 14th day at evening is the 15th first day of Passover---MK 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?---between the 2 evenings 1st day of 7 from 15th to 21st
Evening Thursday ---evening 1=15th
Thursday----------day
evening Friday -------evening 2=16th
Friday---------- day
Evening Sabbath -----evening 3=17th
Sabbath ----------day 3 Reservation Mat 28:1
The first evening is the 15th---DEUT 16:3 Thou shalt eat no
leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
DEUT 16:4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning. 5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee: 6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
EX 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
EX 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
EX 13:6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
EX 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread:(thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)
DEUT 16:6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
The passover lamb was killed after the beginning of the 15th when the sun went down this is almost 50 years after the Exodus This is Gods word you have a choice 1 to believe God of the OT or Gerhard and Alex who claim 8 days, your decision will tell who you worship the creator or the created Christ or Alex who has 8 days
Christ was crucified on the 14th but died at twilight on the 15th between the 2 evenings at the going down of the sun
Alex:
Reg - the Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on Day of Preparation / Lord's Passover, 24 hours before the Feast of ULB. In support of 8 days of ULB, with the Feast occurring on the 2nd of 8 days -
Luke 22:7 “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.”
The question you must ask is - is this day the 14 Nisan or 15 Nisan? Was the Passover killed on 14th or 15th Nisan? If the 14th then it correlates perfectly with Exodus 12:18 and keeps the 7 days of Feast of ULB (once the sacrifice is killed) in Deuteronomy.
A reminder that “at even” is after noon on 14 Nisan for time was needed to take the dead sacrifice and roast it for it to be eaten that evening on 15 Nisan at the Feast of ULB.
The bread at the Last Supper would have been ULB for Christ was without sin. 1 John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”
Can we please dispense with the unnecessary comments - “...to believe God of the OT or Gerhard and Alex who claim 8 days, your decision will tell who you worship the creator or the created Christ or Alex who has 8 days”. This type of wording is false as it reciprocally in your mind establishes that those who believe a strict 7 day ULB are of the devil and only you are of God. It therefore becomes an egotistical statement - something which I try to refrain from making to others. It certainly does not advance your argument in a sincere way. Fact is 14th “at even” to 21st “at even” is 8 days not 7. I want no one to worship me and certainly not on account of Scriptural interpretation on which many topics, including this one, sadly, are varied.
Even if I and others are wrong on this particular interpretation, despite Luke 22:7 and other, including Gospel, verses not mentioned, salvation is by grace not by “theological discussions” or crossites theory. I like nutting things out but my local Pastor reminded me of the simplicity of salvation. Nevertheless you still have verses like Luke 22:7 to contend with. Christ was not alive in body at start 15 Nisan - that day being the first of three. Your statement of “The passover lamb was killed after the beginning of the 15th when the sun went down” cannot be true.
Reg:
these 3 texts have the cart before the horse
Mat 26:20, precede Mat 26:17 the last supper
Mark 14:17:18 precedes 14:12 the last supper
Luke 22:14 precedes 22:7 last supper Last supper was on the beginning of 14th Wednesday preparation of passover The first day of ULB and passover is the 15th Mark 14:12 are all the 7 days of passover being killed on 14th day at even and not the 14th day there IS NOT ONE TEXT with 8 days use Gods word for the passover Your word is worth nothing
GE:
Smart Reg!
The Last Supper was on the beginning of the 14thWednesday
night Mark 14:17 Matthew 26:20 Luke 22:14 John 13:30 1Corinthians 11:23—, the beginning of the 14th “The Preparation of Passover” John 19:14, “the first day without leaven [‘adzumos’] when they always had to kill the passover” Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1.
>— exactly, Reg indeed, exactly as you said!
Alex:
The Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on Day of Preparation / Lord's Passover, 24 hours before the Feast of ULB. In support of 8 days of ULB, with the Feast occurring on the 2nd of 8 days.
GE:
Only one amendment, actually a correction, as follows,
The Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on the day of “The-Preparation-of-the-Passover-of-Yahweh” John 19:14—CORRECT! Which was 24 hours before the Feast of ULB—CORRECT! Which is in support of an 8-days-of-passover, passover--CORRECT.
But this is NOT , but 8-days-of-passover, consisting of “the first day of / for seven days ULB” PRECEDED by “the first, first day ye shall REMOVE LEAVEN” and “KILL the passover (sacrifice) on”— “the fourteenth day of the month”.
The Feast of ULB occurred from on the 2nd of the 8 days of the Passover-Feast(-Period), from “on the first day thou shalt not eat anything leavened… (for)… seven days thou shalt eat ULB”. Exodus 12:15.
“The Preparation of the Passover” WAS passover; “Seven days ULB” of passover also were passover.
Remember it is Josephus and not the Law who called the passover an eight days . The Law calls both the “seven days ULB” and “this day—the fourteenth day ye shall kill the passover … a memorial a FEAST to the LORD—a FEAST by Ordinance / Law / Ethics / Institution / Service”.
Alex:
GE - exactly as I thought.
GE:
…we shall see … I don’t have . The Law in Deuteronomy speaks of the Feast of ULB in terms of “six” and “seven” days. The Feast of ULB is never spoken of in terms of “seven” and “eight”, days. Not even in Josephus; he speaks of the whole passover period as an eight-days 'Feast'.
Alex:
The bread at the Last Supper would have been ULB for Christ was without sin.
GE:
The SDA taught you that. History tells you the Last Supper because it was the last meal at the goings in of the day on which LEAVEN WAS REMOVED, was still leavened. 'Bedikat Gamets' is the Jewish equivalent at the beginning of the fourteenth day of Abib. The search for leaven only began after this meal and next morning was celebrated with a bonfire of the 'found' leaven.
Alex:
Christ was not alive in body at start 15 Nisan - that day being the first of three.
GE:
Why do you conclude --- ?!
I know… but Jesus was not , as the WCs say. It is not, what any Scripture says. Therefore, Why?! 15 Nisan being “the first (of) SEVEN days ulb” yes!—Exodus 12:15,19; 13:6,7; 23:15; 34:18 Leviticus 23:6 Numbers 28:17 Deuteronomy 16:3,4,8 three 10+1 times “seven days ulb”! Not eight days unleavened bread!
Alex:
The bread at the Last Supper would have been ULB for Christ was without sin.
GE:
The bread at the Last Supper had to be leavened because Christ was ALIVE still, and his body and blood symbolically would give LIFE when eaten in Faith in the Lord's Supper.
“OLD leaven” --- the idea of sinfulness is contained in the word and concept of “old” and age or creeping death --- not in the concept or word, 'leaven'. 'Leaven' rather conveys the ideas of Spirit and LIFE in the Bible throughout!
Alex:
GE - Matthew 26:17 – “Now on the first day of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ‘Where wilt thou that we make ready for thee to eat the passover?’”
Source: [Cut] [Cut] states— “the only way to prove from the Bible that the bread was unleavened is to verify that Jesus ate the Last Supper on the 14th of Nisan—the actual Passover.”
GE:
Denied. On the contrary, Exodus 12:15 emphatically commands that “ye shall REMOVE leaven the very first day” which was “the fourteenth day of the First Month”. Now the ‘matstsah’–”leavened bread” eaten “on the fourteenth … that NIGHT” was eaten after the lamb had been slain so that “the flesh” was eaten “WITH ULB”, “in THAT NIGHT”—clearly a SUNRISE day is presupposed and spoken of. See also the days indicated during the ten plagues, they were all SUNRISE days. Because in Egypt the Land of Darkness they worshipped the UPCOMING SUN, days were reckoned from sunrise to sunrise. Which was the reason Exodus uses SUNRISE days and the “fourteenth day of the First Month” —in Egypt—, was no exception. The Egyptians also worshipped the first day of the new year in the middle of the winter. But God—at the exodus—, told HIS people, the Israelites, that “THIS month”– the first 30 days after spring equinox – TO YOU, shall be the FIRST Month”–‘Abib’.
So, leaven was only “REMOVED” on the fourteenth. But it was EATEN after sunset on the fourteenth—in Egypt. And so, leaven had to be “removed” in the morning—, of the fourteenth—, in Egypt.
When Israel had settled in the Promised Land and the passover had become institutionalised, Israel’s reckoning of days also changed from sunrise to SUNSET reckoning. That was where the “Removal-of-Leaven-Meal”, the ‘Bedikat Chametz’ originated at the start of the fourteenth IN ITS NIGHT.
Now I do NOT say Jesus ate the ‘Bedikat-Chametz-Meal’; but that He in its “HOUR”—in its time-of-day—instituted what became called “The Lord’s Supper”--- ‘Supper’ of leavened – any ‘leavened’, “bread”— as long as it was ‘ordinary bread’ which is always, leavened, “bread” in the Hebrew as well as NT Greek— “artos”. It does not matter what the LXX does in Levticus 8:2. It has no authority in this instance. The Hebrew is “ULB”–‘matstsah’. And Mark 14:12 and Matthew 26:17 both have the same—, which is NO words ‘feast’, or, ‘bread’, but is just ‘a-dzumos’, an Adjectival Verbal Noun, “to become without leaven” or “to de-leaven”, as in Mark 14:12, “Then on the first day of un-leaven(ing) (or) de-leaven(ing) (or) WITHOUT LEAVEN WHEN THEY ALWAYS HAD TO KILL the passover”—, exactly like when they at first had left Egypt. This is the DEFINING part which was in the evening-start of the fourteenth: “on the first day WHEN THEY ALWAYS HAD TO KILL the passover …”, “late”– ‘ereb’, “mid-afternoon between the (third and) fourth watches of days on the fourteenth day of the First Month” – ‘behn-ha-arba-yim’.
Alex:
As for leaven and sin [Cut]
Steve Shirley:
Whenever leaven is mentioned in the Bible (22 times in the Old Testament and 17 times in the New Testament), it always (or almost always) represents sin or evil. The first instance in which this word is used is found in (Ex 12:15).”
Because leaven is equated with sin throughout the Bible, the “unleavened bread” pictured bread (Jesus) without sin in it.
GE:
Shirley starts from an unfounded assertion; then attempts to ‘prove’ his assertion with instances of no proof. His proof-text, Ex 12:15 in no way suggests sin. In fact, he contradicts the meaning of the text because Exodus 12:15 tells the PEOPLE to remove all leaven. It doesn’t tell them to remove all their sins. What would they need the passover sacrifice for if they could have removed their sins with removing leaven from their houses? Shirley starts from an unfounded assertion; then without any proof-case of relevance, claims he has proved To hell with mighty scholars and scholarship that unknowingly and knowingly serve and worship esteem and gain like nouveau riche beggars.
Alex:
Interesting - pretty much the conclusion I arrived at. Wednesday 14 Nisan 30 AD. I am satisfied.
GE:
I'll show you WHO and WHAT it is to BOAST on this forum:
Here it is, post 3869 above …
Alex:
It wasnt a BOAST and I don't put people down. Have grace towards others GE.
.
GE:
Alright then, Alex. If you feel I owe you an apology. Scripture is everybody's judge. That I am wrong and behave wrong is more likely than not and I won't deny. I apologise because I would not boast that I would not or do not put people down, or don't try to put people down.
Rubies:
I have arrived at the conclusion that you have absolutely no
discernment, Alex. Sorry about that, Alex. You certainly have the smarts to come to better conclusions, but you do keep running after all the lunatics and heretics under the sun, just because they happen to believe in a Wednesday Cross. Yet THEY are ALL SABBATARIANS!! And THEY think YOU are not saved because you are a Sunday-go-to-meetin' commandment breaking sinner!
GE:
IGNORANCE PREVENTS YOU FROM ENTERING INTO SCRIPTURE. NO! None of you nor the bunch of you are worth two words intelligibly exchanged. You do not have to do with me, GE. You do not have to do with God or with Christ. CHRIST said, HE judges no one -- THE SCRIPTURES DO! And the Scriptures judged you all with all your satanic confusion. WC more than Sunday-resurrection of Jesus Christ is BY FAR the biggest SCAM AND FRAUD the world and history has ever witnessed. It originated from Seventh-day Adventism and bears the wicked fruit of Seventh-day Adventism THOUSAND-FOLD. Christ said the Scriptures ALREADY have judged you !
Here is, ‘The Evolution of the Species Wednesdanus Crossitus Crossitus’: Experiment Control: The Darwinian scientific observation of 8 years old Saartjie,
The WCs found SDA worms to eat; first they ate worms until their hearts overflowed with worms and worms forced up worms until their skull cavity was filled with SDA worms— not “Clever worms”, but STUPID worms! From that day on SDAs and WCs contest whose brain is most vermicular and stupid.
Alex:
GE - what a rant! Calm yourself. Did you forget that: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8,9
GE:
Alex, your assumption is wrong. Read Exodus 12:8.
Alex:
[That] no meat was eaten on 14 Nisan is not incorrect as Exodus 12:8 clearly states it was eaten that night meaning 15 Nisan 1st day of weekly feasts of unleavened bread. I am unsure why this needs going over again or why a verse was supplied with the aim of correction of a particular point when it in fact supports the authors original position - that no meat was eaten on 14 Nisan.
GE:
Exodus 12:8 clearly does not state meat - “flesh” was eaten that night on 15 Nisan or meaning on 15 Nisan; it states, and means, “on the fourteenth day”. Because days were sunrise days in Egypt and therefore also before and at the passover in Egypt were sunrise days. So “on the fourteenth day” its “night” was its second halve; not its beginning halve.
Alex:
GE, by the time after the Exodus, meaning to include the tabernacle, the First and Second Temple periods including the time of Christ do you agree that no meat was consumed on the evening just past 6 PM on 14 Nisan being the Lord's Passover and also the timing of the Last Supper?
GE:
the evening after sunset after 13 Nisan, my answer is, Yes!
Alex:
Your claim that by John 19 verse 42 that Joseph didn't have permission nor the body is incorrect as the preceding verses in verse 38 and 40 clearly state Joseph had permission from Pilate and that both men had taken the body down in readiness for burial that same day 14 Nisan.
GE:
I’m afraid you perception of my supposed claim … that .
Rubies:
That is – 50 DAYS from the Sabbath, the day before the wave-sheaf. The day following a series of 7 Sabbaths can ONLY be Sunday! Therefore, 7 full weeks = 49 days before this – the Day of Firstfruits – the day of Christ's Resurrection – can ONLY be Sunday! This double count of 49 weeks + 1 day from a Sabbath = 50 days which is the day after a Sabbath, is absolute proof that both Feasts of Firstfruits – both Barley and Wheat – were invariably on SUNDAYS. No matter what the Pharisees or COGs or Gerhard say.
Lev 23:15 “You shall count 7 full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. 16 You shall count 50 days to the day after the 7th Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the LORD.” We must necessarily arrive at a SUNDAY for Pentecost, being the day following the 7th Sabbath : Using Huie's dates : 17th Nisan = SABBATH during ULB.
GE:
There is no logic, no system, no , no consistency—no sense in your spinning. The first passover at the exodus from Egypt forms the background for the Leviticus statutory provisions and institutionalisation of this first of all formal feasts observed during the history of “The Children of Israel” within the land of Canaan.
The much later Deuteronomy 16 record of the passover, again, depends on the long-established and accustomed Leviticus- institution with its integrated feast of weeks up to Pentecost.
But the Deuteronomy institution is purely agricultural and
does not “count” or culminate to the religious climax at Pentecost which Leviticus focused on at the time of the giving of the Law. In Deuteronomy the harvest is the feast “counted” and culminated with the feast of tabernacles, “seven days, after thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine”. Deuteronomy brings the winter and summer harvests together in three annual feasts of …
1) the Incarnation of the Son of God “in the feast of tabernacles… rejoice in thy feast… seven days”;
2) the Suffering of Christ “in the feast of unleavened bread” the Passover of Yahweh;
3) the Resurrection of Christ “in the feast of weeks” culminating in the Jubilee and Supper of “LEAVENED LOAVES” OF “BREAD OF LIFE”, “NEW IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD”.
All three these feasts converged in Jesus Christ—and all three
respectively converged in Christ on the same day of “the day
The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”, “God THUS CONCERNING, spake.”
The last “meal prepared for Him”—Jesus, was on the Sabbath “six days before the Feast Days’”, “first day of seven days ulb.” John 12:1,12;
“Christ rose from the dead the third day…”, “on the Sabbath”. Matthew 27:64; 28:1.
A basic mistake which expositors of the Pentecost-Scriptures like Rubies, make, is to begin to count the ‘seven weeks’ with the last day of each “seven-days-week” instead of with its first day. They use multiplication where the Scriptures say, “count”—from the first day to the last of the 49—Deuteronomy, or, 50 days--Leviticus.
Another basic mistake on the expositors’ account is that they never distinguish between Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy 16, but instead, identify them.
Leviticus 23 stipulates “seven weeks-of-sabbaths” by
beginning each “sabbath’s-week” with the Seventh Day of the week Sabbath.
In Leviticus 23:16 “seven weeks-of-Sabbaths” (7x7 Sabbaths) to “the day after the seventh of seven weeks-of-Sabbaths fifty days” were counted, BEGINNING on and with the first “Sabbath”---seven times. In Leviticus therefore, the Sabbath Seventh Day of the week was “the day after the sabbath”, “to its season”, and was “counted”, ‘day 1’. Leviticus 23 indicates the “seven weeks-of-sabbaths” with the “Sabbath” Seventh Day of the week.
Deuteronomy 16 though, indicates “seven sevens” or ‘seven
weeks’, or “seven sevens”-of-days—of WORKING days! Each “seven of seven (days)” BEGAN with a working or ‘week-day’, unlike in Leviticus where each “week-of-seven(-days)” was a “Sabbath’s-week-of-seven(-days)”, having historically at the exodus been the Seventh Day of the week “Sabbath”. At and after the exodus (in Exodus and Leviticus), was “the sabbath to its season”—its passover– “season” and “the day after the sabbath” was—historically—the “Sabbath of the LORD”. Leviticus 23:3,38.
No longer was the Seventh Day Sabbath the marker and beginner of each of the “seven Sabbaths of weeks” or “seven weeks of Sabbaths” in Deuteronomy! Now “the DAY after the sabbath … to its season” of the passover, was any day of the week which BEGAN each of the “seven sevens(-of-weeks)” or “seven weeks” –of-any-days. Deuteronomy generalises the “weeks”, simply calling the first day of every “sevens(-of-days)”, “the day you shall put the sickle to the corn” and begin the harvest for 7x7=49 days.
“Pentecost fully come” was on the Sabbath at Sinai : “fifty days counted from the (SABBATH) DAY after the rest-day-sabbath / burial-day-sabbath” of the First Sheaf which was
1) “cut… on the day that you reap(ed) the corners of your field… (and was) lifted high… and was carried up… and was
brought to… the Priest… on the BONE-DAY… the fourteenth
day of the First Month”; and Leviticus 23:21,22; 8,10,11.
2) “On the fifteenth day of the First Month”, on “the sabbath-rest-day … to its season” of the First Sheaf [Jesus’ Burial day], the First Sheaf [Jesus] was lying in state in the sanctuary under the watchful eye of the priest.
3) “On the sixteenth day of the First Month they FINISHED to
cleanse the House of the LORD” and the First Sheaf was brought in, and was “WAVED BEFORE THE LORD”, “in the Most Holy Place of the LORD.” 2Chronicles 29:17.
“On the eighth day of the month they came to the porch of the LORD [Jesus arrives in Bethany]. So they sanctified the House of the LORD in eight days. “—[Jesus’ Last Week-of-Pascha-Suffering.] “And in the sixteenth day of the First Month they MADE AN END. Then they went to Hezekiah THE KING [“before the LORD”], and said, We have CLEANSED ALL THE HOUSE OF THE LORD” …Jesus Christ Resurrected from the dead.
The expositors also do not treat “the week” in the OT any
different from the ‘week’ in the NT and in contemporary thinking. The world today think of the week as the seven days from Sunday to Saturday; and in the New Testament the week was, “the First”, the Second, until the “Sabbath Day” or “Seventh Day”. But in the Torah and until the Christian era, a ‘hebdomas-week’ in fact was simply any seven days in succession and was mainly used, specifically for ‘ceremonial’, ‘holy days’.
Rubies:
18th Nisan = Wave-sheaf on SUNDAY = 1 day
1st Sabbath AFTER WAVE-SHEAF = 24th Nisan = 7 days
2nd Sabbath = 1st Iyyar = 14 days
3rd Sabbath = 8th Iyyar = 21 days
4th Sabbath = 15th Iyyar = 28 days
5th Sabbath = 22nd Iyyar = 35 days
6th Sabbath = 29th Iyyar = 42 days
7th Sabbath = 7th Sivan = 49 days
The day AFTER the 7th Sabbath = 8th Sivan = 50 days from the Sabbath during ULB.
SHAVUOT = the day AFTER the 7th Sabbath
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)= Sunday 8th SIVAN.
Sabbath 17 Nisan + 50 days = 8 SIVAN.
But Huie's “7 Sabbaths” comes to 1 SIVAN.
That is only 43 days! This proves his theory false.
His interpretation of “DEUTEROPROTOS” is therefore wrong. His interpretation of “the first day of the week” (in Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19) as “one of the 7 sabbaths” is false. The traditional view was correct all along – which is, that Jesus rose as our Wave-sheaf, presented before the Lord so that we may be accepted, on the day after the Sabbath, “on the first day of the week.” NOT as Huie has it, “On the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost.”
.
GE:
Again, you are your LYING SELF! It is NOT --- , a seventh Day Sabbath! It is “from the DAY after the sabbath”--- of the passover --- WHICHEVER day ‘of the week’, because it was the passover’s “sabbath TO ITS SEASON”: “on the fifteenth day of the First MONTH”!
It was “the day after the sabbath” of “the MONTH of Abib”: “Observe the MONTH of Abib”, observe its “days”, “proclaimed” to be “observed”—MONTH’S “days” DATED, “new moon” the first day of the First Month; its “tenth day”, “the fourteenth day”, “the fifteenth day”, “the sixteenth day”, “the one and twentieth day”. “The day after the sabbath DAY” OF the passover IN the MONTH of the passover “TO ITS SEASON” in the year— “begin count the day after the sabbath”—‘annual sabbath’. If it so happened “the day after the sabbath” was the Sabbath of the LORD, then the Sabbath of the LORD was day 1 of 7 times 7 days-weeks counted.
7 times 7 days-weeks never were counted, as you have it, , but “from the day after the sabbath”—the “sabbath” of passover the day before the wave-sheaf! It always was: “Count from the DAY after the sabbath”— “the sabbath” during which the First Sheaf was kept inside before the priest brought it out and waved it before the LORD. The passover’s “sabbath” was Jesus our Passover’s “sabbath-rest” in the grave. Jesus’ passover– “sabbath-rest” in the grave is pictured by Isaiah as Jesus’ death’s FAST in chapter 57 from which God on His Holy Day “RESTED HIM UP AGAIN HIS NAME BEING THE MOST HOLY PLACE”: “on the heights of the earth” BEFORE THE LORD in chapter 58.
No one has noticed that the Law was not given fifty days after the passover’s ‘sabbath” on the fifteenth day of the First Month. Everybody has always been blind to the actual events of the fiftieth day after “the fifteenth day of the First Month-sabbath”.
On the fiftieth day after “the fifteenth day of the First Month-sabbath” of passover God revealed Himself as the HOLY SPIRIT and only three days after ‘Pentecost’, did He give his Law-in-stones. IT WAS THE FIRST passover which Jesus Christ was the perfect anti-type of. It was followed by “seven weeks-of-SABBATHS” so that “the day after the seventh of (the) Sabbath-weeks” again fell on the real Sabbath on the Seventh Day of the week. God once again revealed Himself as the HOLY SPIRIT on ‘Pentecost-SABBATH’. Not Huie or whoever or Rubies took this into account. Not Huie or Rubies or Huiever can get it right therefore.
Rubies:
Huie writes, “There was an annual date just after Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the “First Sabbath”; this was the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath. “One of the Sabbaths,” mentioned by all of the Gospel writers (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19), refers to this very “First Sabbath”! When English translators render the Greek text as “first day of the week,” they do so because of tradition. The most logical translation would be the most literal: 'One of the Sabbaths.' “... Furthermore, it's likely that the “first day of the week,” Sunday, is NEVER even mentioned in the Greek New Testament. “May God help us to put away the traditions of men and obey His Torah!”
So here, Huie is mistaken, and the traditional view is correct. He has misrepresented the Greek translations to support his case, and has been caught out by the simple fact that 7 weeks + 1 day = 50 days between the Sabbath during ULB and Pentecost on Sunday, whereas his scheme has only 42 days from Wave-sheaf to Pentecost. In fact, it is the COG doctrine which is the “traditions of men” that we need to “put away”!
And in what way does he think he is obeying the Torah? The Jews know that without a Temple and a priesthood, much of the Torah (the full 5 books of Moses) is in abeyance. They also know that the Torah was given only to ethnic Israelites and circumcised proselytes to the Mosaic Covenant, to be observed in their own land.
GE:
Yes, Huie is mistaken; but so are you, Rubies.
If there was , this must have been : IN JOHN 19:31! SO BY MY KOOL! What a brilliant ruby discovered! I just hope it’s genuine!
Huie is wrong with his references to .
But John 19:31 is the perfect fit. Because “that day great day of sabbath” in John 19:31 “was the Preparation”—in fact, “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” or “Preparation of the Jews” in Mark 15:42 John 19:42 which was BOTH “when they KILLED the passover”, AND, was on which Joseph the day before the weekly Sabbath, had the body of Jesus buried. Luke 23:54 John 19:42. Yippee! My day has been made! Wish I knew more about this .
Huie is mistaken—I can nevertheless say—in that he presupposes ONE DAY IN BETWEEN that and .
Kevin:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. What day is the morrow after the sabbath? Lev. 23 is plain, seven "shabbaths" shall be complete. A "shabbath" can not be from Tuesday to Tuesday, it can only be from Sabbath to Sabbath. So Lev. 23:16 does indeed say that the fiftieth day is always on the day after the Sabbath. It does not fall on any day of the week as the Jews count.
GE:
This is Leviticus based on Exodus 12-14.
Kevin:
You keep insisting here that the hebrew word "shabbath" means weeks, it does not. A shabbath can not be from Tuesday to Tuesday or from Friday to Friday. Shabbath either means the Sabbath or theseven day period from one Sabbath to another. It never means Tuesday to Tuesday. So the seven sabbaths - weeks must be counted from the weekly sabbath for the 50th day to fall after the seventh "shabbath".
GE:
This is Kevin PRESUPPOSING Leviticus / Exodus STILL.
Kevin, please go read Deuteronomy 16 where it presupposes “sevens-weeks” which fell on any 7 days in succession of the “Sabbath-week” as presupposed in Leviticus.
I made it plain more than once.
Levitus / Exodus presupposed reaches from the RELIGIOUS observance of passover to the RELIGIOUS observance of Shavuot. It is THEREFORE, based on the HISTORIC religious event of the exodus when Israel finished the third of the “three days darkness” ON THE SABBATH, “the day after the sabbath” (as instituted when Israel was settled in Canaan) : and the Sabbath Seventh Day of the week was “the day after the sabbath” of the passover-exodus and the day the count of seven “Sabbaths-weeks” had to be started WITH.
But Deuteronomy 16 presupposes nothing historical or religious, and only deals with agricultural dates and days of harvest—hence the “ANY-seven-days-of-the-week” demarcation to just 49 days, and not to the additional (religious) day after as in Leviticus.
So, I do not deny the “weeks” in Deuteronomy . And I DO NOT CALL them as you claim I do.
Kevin:
Deut. must agree with Leviticus, and it is Leviticus that calls the seven "shabbaths", not you.
So I don't care if Deut. says seven sevens, it must agree with Leviticus which says seven shabbaths. Seven shabbaths are seven sevens, but seven Tuesdays to Tuesdays are not seven shabbaths.
Your and the Jews starting the 50 day count with the first day of Unleavened bread, the 15th of abib is unbiblical whether you like it or not.
GE:
Are you claiming Deuteronomy contradicts Leviticus?
I do not.
And you are mistaken totally, claiming, — They don’t; the Jews start the 50 day count “the day AFTER” WHICH IS “the sabbath” Leviticus 23:11,15,16 mention.
It’s hard to kick against the pricks of the facts, hey, buddy? It
takes humbleness, courage and character, to admit mistake --- very precious and scares commodities indeed…
Re: is an incorrect statement. They did not count ; they counted “seven sevens (of days/weeks)’—‘seven hebdomas’. And when as usual when they harvested, they counted “seven sevens”, they counted just that and no day more after. Israel according to passover Law, Torah, ALWAYS started to count the “seven weeks-of-seven days” of harvesting—to harvest was “SERVILE work”—, NOT “from (on) the day after the sabbath” of the passover as in Leviticus / Exodus, BUT, “FROM THE DAY…” they actually and full time for the servile work of harvesting every day for the next seven weeks, “…PUT THE SICKLE TO THE CORN”!
Now of course when “the sabbath” of the passover (Abib 15)—AS to the analogy of the exodus found in Leviticus—, happened to fall on a Sixth Day of the week, then, “the day after the sabbath” (of Abib 15 the ‘passover-sabbath’), would be the Seventh Day Sabbath (Abib 16). In such cases, “the sickle (was) put to the corn” on the First Day on Abib 17 for the first full day of harvesting. Otherwise (normally), harvesting as well as the count of the “seven weeks” would begin no matter which day of the week, on Abib 16 “the day after the sabbath” of the passover Abib 15, again, regardless the day of the week. For that “first day” [*Deuteronomy 16:4] and for the next “seven weeks” or 49 days, the harvest would go on. Theoretically therefore, the last day of harvesting could be a Seventh Day Sabbath; but because no servile work was allowed on it, the harvest had had to be completed on the Sixth Day before the Seventh Day Sabbath—AS happened in Leviticus to the analogy of the exodus. “The day after the seven weeks” of harvest thus “counted”, then also happened to be a Seventh Day Sabbath. But Pentecost, like all passover days and dates, eventually also occurred “according to its season” on any day of the week.
Kevin:
You are confused about the counting of fifty days. The Jews count from the morrow after the annual sabbath of Unleavened Bread but the problem with that method of counting is that it does not always bring you 50 days later to a morrow after a sabbath. It does not say the morrow after the seventh week, it says that Pentecost is to be the morrow after the sabbath.
GE:
In Leviticus “seven sabbaths’-weeks” = 7 x 7 days-weeks determined by its first day counted which was the Seventh Day Sabbath for which reason Leviticus uses “Sabbaths” to describe the 7 groups of 7 days each of which BEGAN with a 7th day “Sabbath”—in Leviticus, where the 7 x “sabbaths'-weeks” must be counted “FROM the day after the sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER, whichever day of the week it might have fallen upon.
In Leviticus which mirrors the exodus passover, “the day after the sabbath” HAPPENED TO BE the Sabbath commanded to be kept for reason that it was the day on which God had brought Israel “in into the land which (He) sware”.
Now Leviticus 23:16 declared, “including the day after the-seventh sabbaths'-week, you shall count fifty days.” It does NOT say, the fiftieth day--Pentecost . You are wrong, Kenneth. Leviticus specifies the last unit of seven days which was a “Sabbath-Day-unit-of-seven-days”. Thus it is WRITTEN. Sorry. But that is God’s Written Word.
Kevin:
It does not say the morrow after the seventh week, it says that Pentecost is to be the morrow after the sabbath.
GE:
Where does it say that?! It does not. READ Leviticus 23:16. In Hebrew “after the SEVENTH-shabbath”—‘shebii-shabbath’.
Kevin:
The prophecy says that he will cause the sacrifice and
oblations to cease, which Jesus' death did. That does not mean he can't reinstate them at some point in the future. So my argument does not collapse. I have no idea why he would reinstate them, but as you say Ezekiel prophecies seem to say he does.
GE:
If any sacrifice will have to be “reinstated” it will have to be Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. WHICH MEANS YOU NEGATE THAT CHRIST “OFFERED HIMSELF A SACRIFICE ONCE FOREVER”. You CANNOT understand Ezekiel correct if that is what you understand him to say. Why not just admit you do not and or cannot understand Ezekiel? It most definitely is not going to cost you your salvation.
Larry:
In the case of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ex 12:16, Lev 23:7, Num 28:18) and the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev 23:35), the first day and the seventh day of the ceremony were to be sacred. As these two ceremonies were held on a specific day of the month, the day of the week on which they were held would change from year to year. See the following links for the current years on which these ceremonies will be held. These texts have no bearing on the question of which day of the week is to be kept sacred. These were/are ceremonial sabbaths as opposed to the weekly sabbath. On the first day of the ceremony, a convocation was held and on the last day of the ceremony, a convocation was held, at the beginning and the end.
GE:
Those days are not said to be . And only “the fifteenth day of the First Month” is called “the sabbath” of the passover in only Leviticus 23:11,25,16; and only in the NT in John 19:31 is called “That Day … great day sabbath” --- of the
passover.
Did you know that “That Day” had “the, very, special”, “NAME” : “the_NAME_of_the_day”, of, “the SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE-DAY” in which “THE BLOODY CITY … in the same day they defiled My Sanctuary” crucified and killed Jesus Christ at the last passover? Ezekiel 24:2; 23:38!
Did you know “That Day” is found specifically demarcated and indicated in the Gospels as the day Joseph BURIED the body of Jesus on?
Here…
From Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38, Luke 23:50 to John 19:42 “by the time of the Jews’ preparation” (for the Sabbath of the LORD) and Luke 23:54, “mid-afternoon the
Sabbath (according to the (Fourth) Commandment) nearing”.
Did you know these things? Well let me tell you something you also have not known before you came on to this forum discussion: EVERYBODY HERE, HATES THESE TRUTHS WITH ALL THEIR BEING.
Rubies:
Huie writes : “The Good Friday/Easter Sunday proponents' contention that “the Preparation Day” ONLY refers to Friday is clearly unsupportable.
GE:
The assumption that … ONLY , is of course absolute nonsense! Friday Crossites have NEVER resorted to this preposterousness before the WCs started with it --- ALSO just about the beginning of this, the 21st century AD. … but now that I think of it ---isn’t this exactly what Rubies has been advocating at the hand of her ‘hetoimadzia’-philosophy?! IT IS!
.
Huie:
As the Wednesday burial/Sabbath morning resurrection chronology above shows, this “Preparation Day of the Passover” (John 19:14) would have been Wednesday, Nisan 14 (see the Jewish calendar for 30 CE to verify this date).
Rubies:
There is nothing “clearly insupportable” about the fact that PARASKEUE is the Greek name for FRIDAY.
GE:
Yes, ‘paraskeueh’ ; every person in his right mind knows that. But every person in his right mind will also know that ‘paraskeueh’ in the right CONTEXT. Because any person in his right mind will not just use the passages where ‘paraskeueh’ is used for OTHER things and days than the Sixth Day “Preparation of the Jews” for the Sabbath as in John 19:42 and Luke 23:54, to wrap his sandwiches in and throw them away afterwards. Because any person in his right mind can SEE that “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” is Friday, but “the Preparation OF THE Passover” more than 24 hours before on the day before at least 12 hours before “it had become evening already the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” in Mark 15:42, IS THE “Preparation of the passover” the Fifth Day of the week the day BEFORE Friday.
Rubies:
There is nothing “clearly insupportable” about the fact that …. if 14 Nisan was called “the Preparation Day of the Passover,” then it would be called “HETOIMASIA,” as all 9 references to the Passover being PREPARED, use the word HETOIMAZO,
not paraskeue.
GE:
Now what are you saying?! Are you saying ? Or are you saying
And thanks for admitting and stating yourself the TRUTH ---- an interesting development I see --- Rubies conceded to a NIGHT undertaking by Joseph and Nicodemus to bury the body of Jesus --- quite revolutionary and ALARMING!
Rubies:
WOE to those who put good for evil and evil for good.
What a very pertinent proof you have given us, of your most appalling comprehension! I never wrote any such thing!
I wrote that YOU use this falsehood to prop up your gimpy “BONE-DAY” heresy.
WHAT I WROTE was this ... that NIcodemus was the man who FIRST CAME TO JESUS BY NIGHT, after teh FIRST PASSOVER of His ministry ... and that JOSEPH & NICODEMUS BURIED JESUS between 3pm & 6pm on FRIDAY. This is what I have ALWAYS maintained in crystal clear black & white.
A LIAR is someone who deliberately tells falsehoods. This simply does not apply to me. If at any time you imagine that I have told a lie, then you are within your rights to respectfully query what I have said, but any accusation that I am a LIAR, is purely a vindictive fabrication on your part.
Gerhard, for a theologian, you make a passable plumber. Any chance of checking out my septic tank? You may be qualified to do that, but where scriptural comprehension is concerned, your brain is in the sewer. Your appalling comprehension of both Bible text and believers' comments has led you astray multitudinous times, and this gross error is most definitely an example of that.
Reg:
The last passover does not match up with the first in the time the lamb was slain OT beginning of 15th NT 3pm on 14th God allowed that change some 200 years before from evening sacrifices 15th to 3pm on the 14th so that the events of the last passover would bring about Christs death just after sunset on 15th Joseph went to Pilot AFTER sunset to beg thebody of Christ Mat 27:57, Luke 23:50-54, Mark 15:42, John 19:31
GE:
At last you recognised that , Reg!
In fact it was God who CAUSED the change through the passover of Yahweh in Egypt and exodus from Egypt and subsequent passovers in the promised land. And I think it was a bit longer than .
Now the Last Passover DOES . In both the New AND Old Testaments the lamb was slain —NEVER in the OT was the lamb slain —NEVER; it was ALWAYS in the OT always! The same in the New Testament, because is exactly the same as the . You have it WRONG, Reg, that were . They were not; they were , the OLD English for “late, in the afternoon”—!
Just the meaning you give to the word ‘evening’, Reg, that it meant ---there’s your problem! ‘Evening’ can and does mean different things in the Old Testament, Reg; it can mean ‘late afternoon’/‘mid-afternoon’, or it can mean from until dark night; in other words, ‘dusk’. And the word ‘eve’ in the old English of the KJ Old Testament, will most probable every time mean the same as ‘evening’ meaning ‘late afternoon’ / ‘mid-afternoon’ IN PROSPECT OF THE ONCOMING DAY.
Therefore the which and Himself worked through the redemption of his People out of the Land of Darkness, was the CHANGE IN DATING DAYS FROM SUNSET TO SUNSET instead of the old way, from sunrise to sunrise. That change made many centuries before Christ at the exodus, did not change the SACRIFICE from to , but changed the EATING of the sacrifice in the night after its sacrifice “on the FOURTEENTH”—Exodus 12:5,8,18, to the EATING of the sacrifice in the night after its sacrifice “on the FIFTEENTH”, Exodus 12:46,51 = Leviticus 23:6 = Numbers 28:17; 33:3. Therefore my dear Reg, Christ’s death was NOT but “the ninth hour” So that
Reg:
the whole story from John 10:22 – John 21:1 this is Jesus last 3 months Gospel Gerard with what you believe you cannot use one word of these texts John 10:22- 12:1 because you believe the first 3 Gospel accounts which have that wrong in the spring from Jerica to Jerusalem arriving on Sunday and the triumphant enter when the same walk took place in the winter how could Christ come with a large crowd like the first 3 Gospels have it and John having Jesus under threat of death sneaking into Bethany on the Friday before
GE:
Reg, you amaze me! Are you really prepared to summarily reach verdict THREE of the four Gospels , that Jesus ?
Is it not possible that REG has it wrong?! It does not matter which history—a winter or a spring history—any Gospel places the day when Jesus visited Lazarus where he stayed in Bethany, in literal context before six days before the Feast Days of the passover would start. Because from here on the last days of Jesus’ life and beyond, reveal themselves one day at a time until and including the day of his first appearance to Mary Magdalene.
This topic and discussion has consistently been about nothing else. I have never given thought to these prior issues which you are assuming here. And I can just wonder why not? Because they do not actually exist I would say. Because they are not relevant from the very nature of the issues under discussion most definitely! So why worry any further or rather in retrogression? Let the dead bury their own dead; from John 12:1,12 Mark 11:1,11 Luke 19:22-44 on, it is all and every day just about Jesus’ Last Passover Suffering.
Rubies:
I stand corrected - you ALMOST apologised for your false statement that the Sabbath was never called “SHABBATH SHABBATHON : “Gerhard wrote :#2220 “On the contrary, show where once the Seventh Day Sabbath is being described ‘shabbath shabbathon’! There is nothing of the sort”, is a serious and unpardonable ERROR OF GERHARD which I herewith acknowledge, admit, apologise for and RETRACT. I wish I never made this error PROVOKED by the MULTIPLE ERRORS of the FAKE Rubies.”
Oh too bad, there you go again! This was shaping up to be a passable attempt at a rare apology, before you blamed someone else for YOUR mistake, & also lied about imaginary “errors”!
Then of course there is your brutally honest post #2305: “All right Pioneer, love your neighbour as yourself...if you can. I CANNOT.
“I CAN, ONLY HATE. THAT IS MY NATURE.”
We have all seen how true this admission is! Your carnal nature is apparent to all. You demonstrate nothing of the spiritual nature of Christ. There is something that is painfully obvious to evangelical members on this forum, and similar sabbatarian forums everywhere. The legalistic doctrine of SABBATH-KEEPING makes people CONCEITED, MEAN-MINDED, NASTY, SANCTIMONIOUS, PROFANE, ANGRY, UNFORGIVING, ACCUSATORY, JUDGEMENTAL, SUPERCILIOUS, PROUD, VENGEFUL, IRRATIONAL, UNLOVING, DISHONEST, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, HYPOCRITICAL, COMPLACENT, SMUG, SPITEFUL.
GE:
Yes, and then there is something that is painfully obvious to everyone whosoever, at similar forums wherever whichever, the Sundayists’ counter apologetics against the Sabbath which make them
Rubies:
Most certainly it is not the sabbatarians who are “persecuted” though they are certainly rebuked as the Bible commands. They never risk their lives on the front line for Jesus.
GE:
Aitsa!
Rubies:
Gerhard, you mock me for saying that Topix frequently deletes many of my posts.(YOUR POST #2246.) You call me a liar (YOUR POST #2246 and many others) and you falsely claim that I have never posted certain things.
GE:
Rubies, please take the trouble to go have a look where I called you a liar and WILL call you a liar every time there, where, I have called you a liar, were it thousand times, times thousand. There is, method, in my madness. Don't you worry!
Rubies:
You falsely claim that I have never posted certain things. You falsely accuse me of having contradicted myself or changed my mind. Well ponder on this. Just as a typical f'r'instance, you can check the post numbers on page 110 for yourself to verify my honesty and integrity, and contrast it with your bellowing scorn and false accusations.
Posts # 2286, 2287, 2297 & 2299 are now MISSING from page 110 of Topix. (As of 28.4.14. For all I know, many more have disappeared since then.) That is : 4 posts out of 20 on that page VANISHED. 20% of posts on this page alone, DELETED. And every one of them was MINE.
These were all MY responses requested by other posters in ongoing discussions, part of a coherent and logical progression of my carefully-considered replies to Alex and Gerhard.
How is anyone supposed to conduct a rational discussion when Topix applies such senseless, arbitrary censorship? Countless numbers of my diligently-composed posts have vanished in this way, with no reason ever supplied. I am one of the most honest, polite, well-educated, coherent, logical, circumspect and considerate posters on this site. Also INTERESTING, which is one of Topix's requirements.
GE:
Dear poor unfortunate bereaved Rubies, did I not tell you to use PATIENCE with Topix SDA? I did, but you must have thought it’s just my peace-offering cup of poisoned coffee …. Wiete gegooi die sjeef innie koffie? Koffie Anaanbrood? YOU HAVE TO _WAIT_ BETWEEN POSTS! Or you will LOOSE posts --- like I have many times. JUST RE-POST them! Why can’t you re-post them?! Shucks one would swear _I_ let _your_ posts disappear, are you silly or not?!
Rubies:
The significance of this is in the unique Torah readings required for that day of the year, according to the Haftorah cycle during which specific portions of scripture must be read in the synagogues so that the whole scriptures are completed regularly.
Once, the sacrifices for an Appointed Feast would have had to be added to the Sabbath sacrifices, when they also fell on the 7th day.
The Greek phrase translated “high sabbath” in English, is actually “great the day of-that the Sabbath.” This would be “Shabbat Hagadol”, THE Great Sabbath, in Hebrew.
How appropriate that this annual day, when millions of Jews had gathered in Jerusalem listening to prescribed portions of scripture read in the synagogues, should fall on the day when the Messiah was “in the heart of the earth,” our Passover Lamb.
Appropriately, the portion read specifically every year on Shabbat Hagadol, the Sabbath during which Jesus' body lay in the tomb, is Malachi chapters 3 & 4. So millions of Jews on that auspicious day heard this messianic prophecy …”the Messenger of the Covenant in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the LORD of hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming, and who can stand when He appears?” etc. Read the full passage to see how pertinent this day, this Shabbat Hagadol, this “high sabbath” is to the Crucifixion narrative.
Whatever our own personal opinion, it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol was recorded in John 19:31, and it fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion,…
GE:
Yes, it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol was recorded in John 19:31, and it fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion— Yes, and don’t you forget it! Why when Gerhard Ebersohn says it, do you DENY it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol is recorded in John 19:31, and that it fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion?! Go READ John 19:31, “because it was / had become The Preparation … the bodies on the crosses on the sabbath … because THAT DAY of sabbath was the great day”—epei Paraskeueh ehn en tohi sabbatohi ehn gar megaleh heh hehmera ekeinou tou sabbatou’!
Why do people say the crosses and bodies had to be removed BEFORE the Sabbath while they say it WAS the Sabbath and the crosses and bodies had yet to be removed?
Because they don’t understand or know what they are talking --- just like you, faked Rubies!
says Rubies
says Rubies
says Rubies
says Rubies,
was …
… says Rubies,
But the SABBATH the Sabbath of the week which not at all except by unconditional coincidence occurred on the SAME DAY as the new year's [day when the] new year's Wave-sheaf was reaped.”
The Wave sheaf was reaped, Leviticus 23:21,22 tells, when
“Ye shall proclaim on the BONE-DAY … WHEN YE REAP (that) thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field”.
“Ye shall REAP the harvest, THEN ye shall BRING a sheaf of the firstfruits to the priest.”
“On that day on which you REAP the sheaf, on that day you shall BRING the sheaf.”
“And / then on the day after the sabbath”—Leviticus 23:10,11—
“after the sabbath” after you shall have reaped and after you shall have brought the wave sheaf / first sheaf on:— “the priest shall wave it (the first sheaf / the wave sheaf) before the LORD”.
Now what day came before the passover-sabbath?
The day the first sheaf was REAPED AND BROUGHT on!
Was that not the day they killed the sacrifice? It was!
Rubies:
IT WAS NOT!!! THERE IS NO 'BONE-DAY'!!! You cannot read or understand or write plain English, and you have no idea what you are talking about. The Wave-sheaf was reaped on the first day of the week, the day following the Sabbath which fell during the week of Unleavened Bread ... whether that Sabbath fell on the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th or 21st.
Alex:
GE I have to agree with Rubies here - there is no BONE DAY - selfsame means “in that very day”
GE:
If there is no “BONE-DAY” in the Scriptures, then you, go
and DELETE them where they are WRITTEN: 'etsem yom'—“bone-day”, at least 20 times at least 12 of which the EXCLUSIVE “WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY THAT SELFSAME DAY” OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH.
Just keep in mind my friend, you, are going to have to SCRATCH THEM TROUGH and erase them out of THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH. Alright now, go ahead, and make note of which WORDS OF GOD you, got rid of! Which day did they kill the passover / offering / sacrifice on? “On the fourteenth day of the First Month”! What was the fourteenth day of the First Month’s, passover- name? “The BONE DAY ye have brought an offering / made a sacrifice / kept the passover unto your God.” Leviticus 23:14.
What day came before the day Abib 16 that the priest waved the first sheaf on?... “…the sabbath”— “that day great day of sabbath” of the passover Abib15.
And before it:—
:21 “YE, shall…
“ye shall PROCLAIM” it on the
“BONE-DAY”…
:22 “…Bone-Day WHEN YE REAP”…
:14 “the selfsame BONE DAY… (that) it may be an holy convocation to you and (that) ye shall
“do no servile work therein—a
“STATUTE throughout your generations.”
BOTH 14 and 15 Abib were “the selfsame BONE-DAY” in Exodus 12 and in Leviticus are separated and DATED respectively Abib 14 and 15.
God “carried (them) out on everlasting arms”; “Thou in Thy Mercy has led forth the people … Thy Right Hand, O LORD, is become Glorious in Power”; Exodus 12:13,6. His “Right Hand”— “Mighty Hand” Deuteronomy 5:15 et al brought God’s People out.
So “the sabbath” on which the first sheaf for one day rested over for to be waved on the day after it, was ALSO DATED “TO ITS SEASON” in Leviticus the same as “the selfsame BONE-DAY” in Exodus 12— “the very day” on which Israel the typical first sheaf of “JOSEPH”—was “BROUGHT FORTH OUT [and rested from slave labour] on the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
“Thus saith the LORD” in his WORD the Holy Scriptures of
true and universal Christiandom:— “three days”:—
1) “the very first day removed leaven and killed the passover” Abib 14;
2) “the next day”— “the first day seven days unleavened bread … the sabbath”, “that day sabbath great day” of the passover Abib 15 the first sheaf rested over for to be waved the next day;
3) “And on the day after the sabbath”- after “great day” of passover, the priest shall wave the first sheaf:— on Abib 16 which “TO ITS SEASON, YE, shall PROCLAIM”.
Israel / Joseph was not “brought forth out” on the Sabbath Day of the creation week, but on the day before the Sabbath Day of the creation week—the same day that Joseph buried the body of Jesus on— not on “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”! Not after “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” on SUNDAY! But Israel was “brought FORTH OUT”, ON “the sabbath”—“the sabbath BEFORE “the day after the sabbath”. And verily in the same manner Our Passover came out of Egypt’s living hell of slavery on the cross, on “that day great day sabbath of” the passover and was BURIED on it—, “the sabbath BEFORE “the day AFTER the sabbath”. As our “First Sheaf Before the LORD” on “That Day Bone-Day” of his Burial, Our Passover was “laid” in the tomb and like the bones of Joseph in a “coffin”, ‘rested over’ in anticipation of his Resurrection “on the day after the sabbath” of the passover, “because God thus
concerning the Seventh Day had always spoken.”
Alex:
The Lords Passover Day was on the 14th and the celebration of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Passover night. Christ was alive for the first on the 14th hence the Last Supper but was buried by the time of the Feast on the 15th.
GE:
First part, right! Second part, wrong, and, AGAINST SCRIPTURE.
Christ was dead, by the time of the Feast on the 15th was to start or in fact “when evening had come already … and since it was the Preparation and because that day was great day of sabbath (of the passover), the Jews asked Pilate to get the bodies removed on (that) sabbath (of the passover).” Mark 15:42 and John 19:31.
Christ was finished buried, John 19:42, “by the time of the Jews’ preparations to start”—‘dia tehn paraskeuehn tou Ioudaiohn’; “mid-afternoon (on the 15th) the (prospective) Sabbath … according to the (Fourth) Commandment … nearing”. Luke 23:54.
Alex, the evening came in between after Jesus had died and everybody had fled away and left Him forlorn on the cross until Joseph arrived after the Jews had asked Pilate to have the crosses and bodies removed and Joseph at last “IN THE FIRST NIGHT” of ulb could BEGIN his undertaking to bury Jesus.
Joseph finished to bury according to the Law and closed the grave “mid-afternoon on that day”—‘Friday’, and the TWO Marys could go home to prepare their spices and for the Sabbath on which they “began to rest according to the Law”, “from evening”.
Alex, no Gospel tells anything different than the others, and what the Gospels all four of them without any discrepancies between the four of them tell, is what you see here quoted.
Jesus’ Passover of Yahweh must be your point of view into the past; not v.v.. But you can use the first passover as point of view on Jesus’ Last Passover; it will make NO DIFFERENCE. It’s all the same. He was NOT killed and buried the same day. I know the Scriptures you may try to use to contradict the fact. Bring them here, so we may search them as we are instructed to do as CHRISTIANS. YOU, will see yourself, they teach 1)”BURIED THE NEXT DAY” and 2) “STAY THE NIGHT on the tree (but) NOT ALL NIGHT”, and 3) “REMOVE BEFORE DAYLIGHT”—not remove before sunset as alleged without ANY grounds!
Alex:
I don't see a problem.
GE:
I am sure GOD sees a BIG problem here. Friday crossites and Wednesday crossites compete who can be the most holy haughtiest omniscient, right here.
Rubies:
Nicodemus was the man who “first came to JESUS by night”
GE:
… Rubies herself again the lying deceiver with deliberate falsehoods in mind, part quoting John 19:39 while insidiously fraudulently coupling John 19:39 to John 7:50!
Proof!: It stands written in John 19:39, “Nicodemus who came to him the first night”--- NOT IN John 7:50!
Does it say in John 7:50, “Nicodemus who came to him THE FIRST NIGHT”? No!
Was Nicodemus the first man who came to Jesus by night? What about the three wise men who came to Jesus by night the night He was born---in fact ‘the first night’ in his life?
So why say Nicodemus was the man who first came to Jesus by night?! It is not Nicodemus the first; it is “the NIGHT the first”!
The word ‘Jesus’ is absent in the best and oldest and, in most, manuscripts. Remember Erasmus was a Roman Catholic who naturally would prefer any exceptional manuscript that gives Mary ---‘Mary the mother of God’--- pre-eminence regardless its age or quality or genuineness. The word ‘Jesus’ is absent in original and authentic Greek. That’s the fact. You can kick your heels mushy against the pricks --- just like you do against Jesus’ passover Bone Day --- it won’t help you or change the truth of the Scriptures. It was Joseph of Arimathea to whom “the first night” of seven no leavened bread was to be eaten, “Nicodemus also, came”.
Rubies:
Gerhard wrote: “Dear poor unfortunate bereaved Rubies, did I not tell you to use PATIENCE with Topix SDA?
I did, but you must have thought it’s just my peace-offering cup of poisoned coffee …. Wiete gegooi die sjeef innie koffie … Koffie A-Naanbrood?
YOU HAVE TO _WAIT_ BETWEEN POSTS! Or you will LOOSE posts --- like I have many times.
JUST RE-POST them! Why can’t you re-post them?!
Shucks one would swear _I_ let _your_ posts disappear, are you silly or not?!
I have explained to you many times, with documented evidence, that MANY of the posts I have made have been DELETED BY TOPIX.
I always copy and save the webpages with my completed, #numbered posts published thereon.
However, next time I come to town, those #NUMBERS have been deleted. There are MISSING #NUMBERS on the Topix pages, which keep getting condensed due to so many deletions.
I have also told you that I will then re-post those same articles, which will be published an #numbered, and saved those pages. But next visit, THEY ARE ALSO GONE again.
This has happened in numerous instances, 3 or 4 times over for the same post #s.
I have pointed out that Topix has also done this to YOUR POSTS GERHARD, which is often a blessing, as they are so frequently peppered with foul language and homicidal threats against other posters.
However, I do have a file named “TOPIX DELETED THESE POSTS” which contains not only MY deleted posts, but YOURS as well.
Kindly READ AND UNDERSTAND what people write. Quit going off half-cocked and making a blaspheming idiot of yourself! At your perilously advanced age, you ought to remember the motto, “Never lose your dignity.”
GE:
At my perilous advanced age, I have learned man has no dignity, what dignity to loose! I am so glad I am not a born and bred Englishman or American or Anglo-Saxon or whatever sort of Soutie but a BOER who can write 'proper English' only well enough to frustrate and anger and cause havoc and desperation among all SUNDAY CRUCIFIXIONIST FRIDAY CROSSITE FREAKS !
Madam, In Christ Jesus the Saviour of his own, I AM PERFECT and have ALL DIVINE DIGNITY, having been forgiven through God's grace every and all my inherited as well as cultivated INDIGNITY IN MYSELF. Proud am I to say like Paul: I, am the chief of sinners. So forget to try to improve me, please?
Rubies:
Jesus being “wrapped in cloth” and spices and laid on the bench in the tomb, WAS the complete burial. The women intended to bring extra spices to cover Him after the Sabbath – in addition to the 75 or 100 lbs that Nicodemus had already supplied. This was their offering to the Lord, much as we might place flowers on a grave today. But Jesus HAD been “properly buried” and nobody intended to remove His body and put it in a hole in the ground.
GE:
Yes, Jesus “laid in the tomb”, was, the COMPLETE, burial. It was the complete Burial WHEN Joseph “had the stone rolled before the grave’s opening”, and, “had left” and also the two Marys had “left and returned home and prepared spices and ointments”. Not before! Then, was it the end of the burial—exactly the SAME time of day when Jesus on the day BEFORE, breathed his last breath and died “the ninth hour” = “mid-afternoon” = ‘3 p.m.’, and the approaching day of the Crucifixion 3 hours later sunset 6 p.m., would begin. Then, was it the END of the burial, not it’s beginning but the latter opposite of its beginning.
When and where began the day on which Joseph had to bury the body of Jesus? Here:
“After these things” John 19:38.
Which ‘things’?
The “things” which happened from John 19:31 to verse 37—excluding of course John’s usual parentheses like in verse 24, the casting of lots for Jesus’ garment the morning already when He was still alive and before they had even nailed Him to the cross.
Which “things” therefore?
The fact “evening already had come” Mark 15:42 — the fact of the Jews’ consternation “since it had become the Preparation and that day was great day sabbath” John 19:31 — of their most sacred national feast and the crosses were still standing in open sight of both the Jewish faithful and their oppressors! Therefore wrote John, “After THESE things…”.
Only “after these things” (of the Jews’ request to REMOVE THE ROMAN CROSSES), was Joseph able to ask Pilate for Jesus’ body in order “to bury” Him according to the “ethical law” of the Passover of Yahweh, the Torah the following prospective night and day. Because the Law demanded the interment of “that which remained” of the Passover Sacrifice, that it should be “burned with fire” and returned to the dust of the earth “the next day” after He had been “killed on the fourteenth”.
Thus real was the death of the Son of God that He HAD to be BURIED “IN THE FLESH”.
“Mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching” Luke 23:54 “by the time of the Jews’ preparations (for the “approaching Sabbath”)” to begin, which preparations would go on until sunset which meant three more hours for “preparation” before sunset “that day (which) was The Preparation” RUNNING OUT before “the (weekly) Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment”, Joseph had FINISHED with Jesus’ Burial “the Selfsame Whole Day Bone Day” of Abib 15.
Jesus had to be properly buried; He was, properly buried “as was the customary ethics of the Jews to bury”, “according to the Law and Prophets … it behoved the Christ to suffer pascha.”
Rubies:
“Last Supper” is an invented term. It is not found in scripture's accounts of Jesus' final meal.
However, “PASSOVER” is used of this final meal, in Luke 22:15.
The disciples “prepared the Passover,” as Matthew, Mark and Luke teach us.
This preparation could only be done on 14 Nisan.
The room for the Passover feast had, after all, ALREADY been prepared (Mark 14:15). All that remained to do was kill and roast the lamb. Also make some unleavened bread. Takes just a few minutes; I do it all the time.
“Preparing the Passover” means, killing the lamb and roasting it on the afternoon of 14 Nisan.
GE:
Thank you. If Rubies told us means, , we can take for granted at least part of what she tells us is true. The part we may believe in this case, is, “Preparing the Passover” means, . True!
But you should better not believe, .
You should also not believe what Rubies avers, So take care not to believe anything Rubies says! Never! Like where she claims, that. No; that is not Matthew Mark or Luke or John for that matter; that is just Rubie’s in bad taste joking lie.
Don’t believe anything the faked Rubies openly lies. NOTHING of what she says, is true; EVERYTHING is a covert lie of some sort in some obscure way. Like 1) It was not . God is watching you, Rubies!
Rubies:
Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark 15:34-37
(the HOUR of PRAYER, Acts 3:1)
which is 3 p.m. at the equinox,
3 hours before sunset,
on the day called PARASKEUE, John 19:31
(this is the Greek name for FRIDAY),
also known as PROSABBATON
(the Greek word which means, “The DAY BEFORE the WEEKLY SABBATH,” Mark 15:42)
which must necessarily be FRIDAY,
and “THE SABBATH WAS BEGINNING,” Luke 23:54
which also proves this was FRIDAY.
Therefore HE HAD TO BE BURIED BY SUNSET, Joshua 8:29
in the 3 HOURS remaining before the 12th hour,
that same day as He was hung on the tree, Deut 21:22,23
FRIDAY, BEFORE SUNSET. By commandment of the Lord.
GE:
Rubies’ big, lie in a word: < John 19:31>:
… — “The Preparation … that day of sabbath great day” of passover. Jesus did not die then, or, in John 19:31. It is Rubies’ big, lie. Yes, this is Rubies’ big lie—Rbies stating, This is Rubies’ big lie because Mark 15:34-37 was the day BEFORE—the day BEFORE, .
This is Rubies’ big lie because she makes She also lies because she says that while it was ‘Friday’ the Preparation which was ending or rather was beginning to end, “the Sabbath approaching mid-afternoon that day”—of Friday! And yes, . But what does Rubies mean with ? That’s her trick; her lie! Because Rubies says ——, ! And yes, . But that is not what is about or says. And that is not in , or, the . Because none of all these faked rubies were on , or, on the Sixth Day from after sunset and evening, or, , but by the wickedly lying mouth of one incognito faked Rubies on TopixSDA.
To the God of Truth only, glory and majesty through Christ raised from the dead “In Sabbath’s-time before the First Day of the week”.
Rubies:
The Wednesday cross heresy only came about through false prophets such as Herbert W. Armstrong who defied the simple scriptural teaching and invented their own aberrant doctrines. Was HWA, “Elijah the prophet”? No? Obviously not! But he said he was! This proves him a liar and a deceiver. Everything he taught must therefore be discarded. You cannot pick and choose amongst the doctrines of false prophets. They must be stoned to death, kit & caboodle, to “purge the evil from your midst.”
As for the US Navy – they are beastly careless about the date of the Cross. Their impartial astronomical data is quoted and misapplied by heretics to befuddle others not clever enough to check these facts out for themselves. You cannot blame the USNO for other peoples' false doctrines. They are not responsible for what anyone else does with their accurate information.
The “New Moon” data given by the USNO is for CONJUNCTION, not for the first visible crescent of the moon. Therefore those using this info will be out by either 1 or 2 days in their dates for Jewish months. Thus 14 Nisan in 30 AD was FRIDAY 7th April. In 31 AD, it was TUESDAY 27th March, using the correct method of first visibility of the moon.
Also you fail to take into account that “opse” means “AFTER; LONG AFTER.” And “epiphosko” means “GETTING LIGHTER; DAWN.”
GE:
, is not true. For many centuries Bible translators never gave this idea a thought and never allowed it to enter into their renderings of Mathew 28:1. Reg has with every right posted and reposted all the English Bibles from the first one by Tyndale until the last translated in the nineteenth century and they like one, correctly translated ‘opse’ with “late” / “late in” / “late on”.
Then it is a fact of history and etymology as unmovable as the rock of Gibraltar that ‘opse’ has in all—yes ALL—the existence of the Greek language never been used in the way and in the sense that Rubies here arrogates falsely—NOT EVEN IN MODERN translations in Greek of Matthew 28:1.
Here is the perfect illustration of absolutely NO comprehension or knowledge of the Greek language—not only by Rubies, but by the quasi translators who since the twentieth century have been attempting to create a case for SUNDAY WORSHIP BY STEALING JESUS’ RESURRECTION FOR IT.
And what could be easier than to pretend ‘opse’ in Matthew 28:1 truly means what they ABUSE THEIR HOLY DUTY AS TRANSLATORS OF GOD’S WORD TO MAKE IT LOOK!
They LIE in worship, and adoration and superstitious veneration and divining of their great idol and FALSE GOD, the lord Sun and his Day of worship. And they shall commit murder and atrocities unthinkable of Christians, for their god and its glorification. They shall even—they at present ARE—robbing Christ of the truth of his “Sabbath’s”-Resurrection from the dead to honour the god of all ages among pagans and heathens, ‘The Day of the Lord Sun’.
Rubies:
And “epiphosko” means “GETTING LIGHTER; DAWN.”
GE:
This is Rubies’ same lie and same abuse of truth and same show of incompetence in Greek or Bible.
Rubies:
… “3 days and 3 nights” is a Jewish idiom rather than a precise count of the number of hours.
GE:
Rubies does not know what an ‘idiom’ is. Which is clear as daylight JUST by her reference here to the as .
The occurs ONCE in the New Testament. But an ‘idiom’ to be an ‘idiom’ is so often occurring in every day use of a language that it defies set rules of grammar, syntax and semantics. For example, the word “week” in the New Testament from the New Testament IDIOMATIC Hebraism, ‘sabbatou’ Singular or ‘sabbatohn’ Plural “… of the week”— “First Day of the week”, or, “the Sabbath (of the week)” --- no difference it means and says the same thing. So, the plain PHRASE, is no but a literal phrase of literal MEANING. It only and ONLY means what it says in the writing, which is “three days and three nights”.
Rubies:
is a Jewish idiom rather than a precise count of the number of hours.
GE:
Sure! That the phrase is not , is so. If it were a precise count of hours that is expressed with saying (instead), then it might have been given second thoughts for going through for an . But now do not as conceived and does not as an refer to something else than what it spells in so many words, but simply is what it is: WORDS meaning what they say.
Rubies:
JOSEPHUS (A Levitical Priest) Antiquities of the Jews, Book 14:4 “3. And any one may hence learn how very great piety we exercise towards God, and the observance of his laws, since the priests were not at all hindered from their sacred ministrations by their fear during this siege, but did still TWICE A DAY, IN THE MORNING and ABOUT the NINTH HOUR, OFFER THEIR SACRIFICES on the altar.” Antiquities, Book 3:10 “Concerning the festivals; and how each day of such festival is to be observed.
“1. the law requires, that out of the public expenses a lamb of the first year be killed EVERY DAY, at the BEGINNING and at the ENDING of the DAY.”
“5. In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, ON the 14th DAY of the LUNAR MONTH, when the sun is in Aries,(for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following.
The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the 15th day of the month, and continues 7 days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs.”
GE:
New Testament Truth does not rely on traitor Jews or loyal Jews.
Rubies:
MARY MAGDALENE was one of the many women who came to the tomb very early on Sunday morning to anoint Jesus' body, according to ALL the concordant accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
GE:
Denied! Mary Magdalene was one of the women mentioned in Luke 24:10 who came to the tomb very early “deepest of morning”—‘orthrou batheohs’ on Sunday morning to anoint Jesus' body, according to ONE account—that of Luke in 24:1,2.
Rubies:
This was the FIRST time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had brought that alabaster flask of pure nard
GE:
Denied! account in Luke 24:1,2, was the first time “THEY”, had come to the tomb as “they, had brought their, spices prepared and ready with them,…”
Rubies:
This was the FIRST time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had brought that alabaster flask of pure nard, which Jesus had told the disciples she must be allowed to use to anoint Him after He died. John 12:7 Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial.”
GE:
Why must you always add a twist to the text?! Jesus did not say, He said just what the KJV says, “Let her alone: AGAINST (that is, “before” and “for”) the day of my Burying (Burial) she kept (or “did”) this (which she had done).”
Therefore no; Mary Magdalene “brought / carried with” her to the grave, the “spices and sweet ointments” which she and “the other Mary” on the Friday after “mid-afternoon” after “they had left” and “had gone home” after Joseph had closed the grave, “prepared”. Luke 23:54-56a. They on Friday prepared their spices and “after the Sabbath” on ‘Saturday evening’, “bought” some more “spices, so that, when they (together with Salome) would go, they could / might anoint Him.” Mark 16:1. Which according to Luke, they did, “just after midnight [‘orthrou batheohs’] on the First Day of the week”. Luke 24:1,2. “They… and other women with them came to the tomb.” At this visit, “they (the women) saw the stone [as Mary Magdalene must have told them] but on entering into the grave, they found not the body”. Therefore Luke 24:1,2 and 22,23 make mention of the first visit at and inside the tomb. The two men told these women at this first visit by them all: “that He was alive” [‘dzehn’]. “But Him they saw not”, the women themselves witnessed. Luke 24:23,24.
So why has Rubies said,
That is the basic underlying principle of all as yet attempted explanations for the ‘Easter enigma’ (as Wigram referred to them). The FAILED principle—the failed principle which has not solved a single ‘discrepancy’ or ‘enigma’ as yet, but so far has increased many times the myriads of existing ones. All, supposed or imagined or assumed ‘contradictions’ or ‘irreconcilabilities’ or whatever ‘impossibilities’ based on and derived from and caused by THIS VERY underlying principle seen here for example in your own futile undertaking to explain them—right here now quoted from you.
The solution?
John's account is NOT in any of the other Gospels and no Gospel’s account is the same event in John’s or any other Gospel’s account. Each Gospel’s account is its own account, different from but not differing with any other Gospel or Gospels’, accounts.
It is not one and recorded in all the Gospels. Yes, the larger picture is that of the same WHOLE; but the larger picture is made up of the individual Gospel’s smaller pictures, PUT TOGETHER.
Therefore, without knowing meaning or incidences of use.
But (having consulted three of the best Hebrew concordances / lexicons and having perused the Hebrew in Exodus letter for letter) I was able to find no or similar sounding letters or similar or instantaneous and accidental in the case of any of the occurrences of ‘etsem-yom’.
Rosends:
The Hebrew hasn't changed. It was the same before and after 2011. The meaning was established a long time ago. As has been stated repeatedly, the phrase "etzem yom" never happens. B'etzem happens. hayom happens. But "etzem yom" simply never happens.
GE:
Sorry, I don't get it. "Bone-Day" 'gehtzem-yom', 'b'ehtsem-hayom' whatever, . Being mentioned 18, 20 times as some kind of Burial-Day, and in Exodus having been "observed" a "Feast" in which "ye shall Kill the passover" and "THIS THAT NIGHT", "shall eat the flesh" and "the next daylight shall burn that which remained" --- being DATED, "the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month", 'b'etzem', 'b'etzemhayom' whatever, HAPPENED! Yes, the Hebrew hasn't changed. It was the same before and after 2011. The meaning was established a long time ago even before the Torah was written. But the meaning of the Hebrew ‘etsem-yom’ got lost through translation into Greek 300 years BC.
Rosends:
The translation is not highly debatable. The reason it includes nothing of "bone" is because the word has no place there. That's like saying that the phrase should read "bone ocean" because yom has the same letters as yam, ocean and the fact that it isn't there makes every other translation of "day" highly debatable. The context is a specific day on the calendar so it is called "that day." Trying to read in Jesus strains everything.
GE:
Now you say , ; then you carry on over , which ; and concludes,
GE:
Thanks for correcting me. And thanks for correcting me so
courteously. [Cut]
To this day Jews eat the last supper of the old year in the evening of the fourteenth day of the First Month. They with it introduce the feast of the removal of leaven, 'Bedikat Chametz'.
This was a serious matter from the first. If leaven was found in one's house after the next morning of the fourteenth, he had to be killed. Exodus 12:15c.
The fourteenth and fifteenth days of the First Month was dated "the selfsame day" of the fourteenth before and at the time Israel was brought out of Egypt. In fact, it says "THREE DAYS thick darkness" ONE "day of the LORD" "day, or, night" indistinguishable, Exodus 12:12x14; 13:21,22.
"In THAT DAY... I came forth out of Egypt … THIS IS THAT NIGHT to be solemnly observed”. 13:8,41,42. The LXX even uses “night” in verse 41 for “the selfsame day”.
“It came to pass in the selfsame day…” of first “night”, then
“day” “…that the LORD did bring the children of Israel OUT. Exodus 12:51.
There is only one explanation for the fact Israel had to “EAT the FLESH (of the passover sacrifice) in that night—[of] the FOURTEENTH day of the month—and that which remained in the morning—[of] the FOURTEENTH day of the month—had to burn with fire” 12:6,8,10. The explanation is obvious:
In Egypt days were from sunrise to sunrise.
But when Israel had entered into the land God had sworn to them, God’s way for ‘observing’ days was adopted and days became sunset days. Now the passover was killed and leaven was removed on the fourteenth in its day-time; and the lamb was roasted and eaten after sunset in the night of the fifteenth day of the First Month.
“In the night in which our Lord was betrayed”—the night of the fourteenth—He told his disciples to “PREPARE, so that I might eat the passover”.
Now as Fisherman said, And He Himself, ATE the Passover of Yahweh by “SUFFERING the pascha” : ‘pascha’ = ‘to SUFFER’.
Jesus WAS the Passover of Yahweh BY AND IN ACT-OF-SUFFERING for the sins of many. It never is written in the Indicative that Jesus ‘ate the passover’; because He WAS it and He ATE it by HIS, SUFFERING of, it. Christ was the Bread which the disciples ate; He was the Passover Himself which laid down his own life by the very same power with which He would take up his life again “the third day”.
Voice:
So much for 'As Jonah was.... 3 days and 3 nights..."
Jesus did rest on the Sabbath, even in death, but He did not rest in the grave for just a little over 24 hours. 3 days, 3 nights.
.
GE:
At last some sensible reading!
Jesus did rest … even in death.
But God “loosed the pains of death”—that is, God stopped Jesus’ conscious experiencing and feeling of the suffering of death the painful wages of sin, with death: with death as Jesus “gave the ghost … the ninth hour”. Then Jesus had entered into his ‘rest’ or ‘sleep’ in death. Twenty four hours later on the next day the same hour of the day “mid-afternoon the Sabbath nearing”, Joseph had closed the stone on Jesus’ grave and sleep in the ‘rest’ of his grave where He ‘slept in rest’ another 24 hours while God Himself kept vigil over his body so that his “flesh saw no corruption in death” until He would RISE FROM THE DEAD “IN THE SABBATH’S FULNESS OF FULFILMENT IN HIM, and “God all his works finishing: RESTED” in Jesus’ Resurrection from the grave and from the dead and the state of the dead and “entered into his own rest AS GOD IN HIS OWN” --- having been “in the HEART, of the earth, three days and three nights” OF “THE PLAGUE THAT WAS UPON HIM”—the plague of the Passover of Yahweh “the WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY-OF-PASCHA-SUFFERING OF THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH OF CHRIST.
Christ’s Resurrection was his ultimate Rest.
Christ’s Burial was his pen-ultimate rest in the sweet sleep of The Righteous.
Christ’s Death was his initial entering into his Glory in
Victory.
Christ’s bodily suffering was Christ in triumphant suffering under the hand of wicked men and the power of darkness;
Christ’s anxiety in spirit even unto death “IN THIS THAT NIGHT” IN THE OLIVE PRESS IN THE VALLEY OF BLOOD, was conquering life wrested from the grip of satan in the “smoky darkness of yellowish and orange fire of Jasper and bright blue flames of Sapphire under the foundations of the mountains in the depths of hell.
Conclusion:
Rule One…
What is wrong with ‘Rule One’…
It is no more than an assumption --- and a wrong assumption at that ---, that ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, is , . In actual fact all the above supplied incidences, are each, cases of the grammatical use of the NOUN: ‘etsem’ as an Adjective— without exception. And ‘Rule One’ as here quoted minutely, will illustrate and confirm…
So, How will the actual incidences illustrate and prove that ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, is a Noun used as Adjectival-Noun in the Nomenclatural Phrase, ‘etsem-yom’?
.
Rule Two …
.
Bingo!
Incidences, examples, exhibits of …
Genesis 7:11…13, ~ba-yom-ha-dzeh…b’-etsem-ha-yom-ha-dzeh~ “on-this-day…in-the bone-the-day-this(-very-day)”, and ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, being the Preposition “IN(-the)-bone … on-the-same-day” ---.
Genesis 17:23,26, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ “in-bone-the-day-this”, and ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, being the Preposition “…IN(-the)-bone”, viz., “the-day-the-same-IN-(the-)bone(-day)” ---.
Now, note the similarity, indeed the uniformity in…
Exodus 12:17, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---;
Exodus 12:41, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---;
Exodus 12:51, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---;
Leviticus 23:21, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ --- of passover;
Leviticus 23:28,29,30, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---
And similarly…
Leviticus 23:14, ~‘ad-etsem-ha-yom-ha-zeh~ and ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, ‘ad’ - “until” --- of passover.
…thus…
Exodus 12:8,12, ~ba-la-yil-hadzeh~ “this night” --- of ~b’etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ “this selfsame Bone-Day I have brought your armies out” verses 17,41,51— and ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’ being the Preposition “…IN(-the)-bone”, viz., “the-day-the-same-IN-(the)-bone(-day)”.
Re:
So exactly because passover, Yom Kippur, the day of Abraham’s circumcision and the day Noah got on the ark, are, all, "bone days", I do not at all … and therefore do not have to the use of ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’—a Noun—, means an Adjectival Noun in the Nomenclatural phrase the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh specifically its “Day-of-Burial-the-Whole-Day-BONE-Day”.
The objector is the one who has no ‘leg’—no SUBSTANCE—no BONE—no CERTAINTY, . And remember – every one and all of these have the construction and ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’ being the Article or and some Preposition like “in-the-” or “with-the-” or “until-the-” : “-bone”, viz., “the-day-of-substance / the-day-in-its-wholeness / the-central-day / the-day-filling-in in-between combining / holding together / containing in whole : BONE - ‘etsem’ : DAY - ‘yom’. It just happens to be written thus without exception --- as “BONE” - ‘etsem’ : “DAY” - ‘yom’ as the WHOLE day, “day and night” (Matthew 12:40 Jonas 1:17 Exodus 10:13,19 “all that day and all that night … THIS DEATH!”)
‘Etsem-yom’ - “Bone-day” occurring in wider context…
Genesis 50:20, ~ka-yom hadzeh~ “like(-the)-day-the-same(-day)” with regard to the “bones” of Joseph. his burial and grave (typical of Christ) ---.
Exodus 12:46, “And (no) bone of Him shall be broken” ---without saying “in that day”.
Exodus 24:10, “they saw God… and as sapphire and like the bone / substance (of) heaven for clearness (the grave)”, ~ha sappir ho-ch’-etsem~.
Exodus 12:42, ~h’-o-a-ha-la-yil-ha-dzeh-le-Yah-weh~- “it-is-the-night-this-to-Yahweh” without saying of the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh.
Compare Deuteronomy 32:48 and Joshua 5:11 and 4:13 — the “WHOLENESS” reached in the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh.
Summary:
Because of all these specifics, what rabbi Rosends avers, , is mere opportunism.
Which goes to show there are several or and other than the conjunctive, —viz.,
the Article, “the”;
Pronouns, “this”, “that”;
Prepositions, “in”, “on”, “at”;
Adverbs “until”; and
Adjectives, “same” / “very”,
—even Nouns,
which, in or , or and , or and , like ‘etsem’ - “bone”— which Noun —as an Adjectival NOUN-prefix /-conjunctive, again / the noun after it, the word “day” in the or (or, simply, in the phrase) of the Nomenclature, ‘Etsem-Yom’—“Bone-Day”.
If you can have a ‘Yom Kippur’, why not an ‘Etsem-Yom’? Why not an ‘Etsem-Yom-Kippur’ Leviticus 23:28,29,30? Why not an ‘Etsem-Yom-Pascha’?
Recapitulation
>> =
This is case two of >> “on-the-Bone-THE-Day-the-THIS(-day)” …which makes it seem to me there is NO instance of WITHOUT immediately attached in front of it! >>…
WHAT IS ?
It ALWAYS is the Passover of Yahweh!
No one has denied it.
But what is your which ?
.
It is the Noun which ! : ‘etsem’, is the Noun which . - ‘etsem’, is the Noun which only is the Part-of-speech that takes a attached before it like no Adjective does!
Saying, , is saying there is, . Saying, , is hopeless illogic. The , ‘b’etsem-yom’ has a word—‘etsem’, a Noun, which refers to "bone"-meaning-"bone”, , and in the context of the full , ‘b’etsem yom’, means, “on the day-essential of” / “on the specific day of” the passover, namely “on The Bone-Day of” the passover.
Then you people moan about my, English! You don’t know the first principle of language in any language.
‘Etsem’ is Noun used as an Adjective in the , ‘b’etsem yom’, which in the context of the passover, means “on the Bone-Day (of the passover)”.
‘Etsem’ is NOT an Adjective used as a Noun in the , ‘b’etsem yom’ meaning no ‘day’, but who knows what nonsensical non-existent .
Who does not know it? Who argues about it?
.
It may; it may not, and take the precise same — that Noun being “day” – ‘yom’.
It does not HAVE to .
Fact is that in the context of the passover and other ‘days-like-burial-days’, the EXCLUSIVELY is the wherein the Noun ‘etsem’ is followed by the noun ‘yom’ - “day” directly and in some exceptional cases farther away, e.g., in Genesis 50.
Final finding:
This is the crux—nay, the crater, the vacuum, the self-sucking-in into oblivion FLAW, of the learned and with most decorated Jewish rabbis not the worst ignorant Christian have landed in, THIS:
… THIS: Rosends:
26 01 15
The Bones of the Day
You may ask, what does Passover have to do with China or the Chinese language? I know that you are a Root & Branch reader, so you are used to thinking globally and spiritually. Pay attention!
Perhaps the most difficult passage in the entire Passover story of Scripture occurs in Exodus 12:17. Here, the Israelites, that tiny band of universal metaphors, are set to leave their oppressive site of slavery and degradation “b’eZTeM haYom haZeH”, in — literally translated — “the BONE of the day”. The word “eTZeM” means bone, from the first time that Adam uses the word in Genesis 2:23, and this Edenic term is the ultimate source for OSTEOMA (the bone tissue tumor) or the Greek bone, OSTEON.
Most bible translations have a bone to pick with this difficult term, so they simply render it “on that selfsame day” or “very day” — either way their translations are absurd.
Biblical scholars try gymnastics to compare the word to related terms that do mean “itself” (ATZMo) or OMeTZ, “strength.” [bold GE] They sorely need a prooftext in an actual language before they could understand this term, and other long ossified Semitic languages, like Akkadian, are no help.
To the rescue comes the venerable language of Chinese, Earth’s number one spoken language, which replaced some consonants with rising and falling accents but otherwise changed little since it was refracted from the Edenic gem at Babel and spread with the most prolific son of Japeth. Chinese, like Biblical Hebrew, has large two-letter roots whose meanings form a theme when noting the many three-letter roots or like-sounding words that poured forth from the same source over the
millennia.
The Chinese root “zhong,” a reasonable match for the Tzadik-Mem Hebrew bone of contention above, has several relevant meanings. Among these are Middle Finger, Backbone, Center, Core, Noon and Midday. Yes, there is nothing wrong with translating Exodus 12:17 as “the bone of the day”, once we have the Chinese to teach us that the “bone” (eTZeM) is the middle and strong core (oMeTZ).
Now we can understand that the Israelite slaves were meant to leave in the backbone or middle of the day. This high drama was set for high noon, lest someone think the slaves sneaked out on their own at dawn or twilight. This historic highlight was well lit for all the world to see, for all time.
(This short essay was originally published by the Root & Branch Association’s information service, headquartered in Jerusalem, Israel. Check ‘em out at )
To close with, I repeat …
This is the crux—nay, the crater, the vacuum, the self-sucking-in into oblivion FLAW, of the learned and with most decorated Jewish rabbis not the worst ignorant Christian have landed in, THIS:
… THIS: Rosends:
GE:
Is there a, ‘Bone-Day’ in the Holy Scriptures of Christiandom?
John Gill commentary on John 19:36
Our LibraryCommentariesJohn Gill's Exposition of the BibleJohnJohn 19
36 For these things were done
The not breaking his bones and piercing his side, and that not by chance, and without design; but, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, a bone of him shall not be broken; referring either to ( Psalms 34:20 ) he keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken; which if to be understood of the righteous in general, had a very particular and remarkable accomplishment in Christ; though a certain single person seems to be designed; nor is it true in fact of every righteous man, some of whom have had their bones broken; and such a sense would lead to despair in case of broken bones; for whereas such a calamity befalls them, as well as wicked men, under such an affliction, they might be greatly distressed, and from hence be ready to conclude, that they are not righteous persons, and are not under the care and protection of God, or otherwise this promise would be made good: nor have the words any respect to the resurrection of the dead, as if the sense of it was, that none of the bones of the righteous shall be finally broken; and though they may be broken by men, and in their sight, yet the Lord will raise them again, and restore them whole and perfect at the general resurrection; for this will be true of the wicked, as well as of the righteous: and much less is the meaning of the words, one of his bones shall not be broken, namely, the bone "luz", the Jews speak of; which, they say F9, remains uncorrupted in the grave, and is so hard that it cannot be softened by water, nor burnt in the fire, nor ground in the mill, nor broke with an hammer; by and from which God will raise the whole body at the last day: but the words are to be understood of Christ, he is the poor man that is particularly pointed at in (Psalms 34:6 ) who, was poor in his state of humiliation, and who cried unto the Lord, and he heard him, and saved him; and he is the righteous one, whose afflictions were many, and out of which the Lord delivered him, ( Psalms 34:19 ) whose providential care of him was very particular and remarkable; he kept his bones from being broken, when others were; and by this incident this passage had its literal fulfilment in him: or else it may refer to the passover lamb, a type of Christ, (1 Corinthians 5:7 ) a bone of which was not to be broken, ( Exodus 12:46 ) ( Numbers 9:12 ) . The former of these passages is a command, in the second person, to the Israelites, concerning the paschal lamb, "neither shall ye break a bone thereof"; and the latter is delivered in the third person, "nor shall they break any bone of it"; which may be rendered impersonally, "a bone of it, or of him, shall not be broken; or a bone shall not be broken in him"; and so the Syriac and Persic versions read the words here; and in some copies it is, "a bone shall not be broken from him"; and so read the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions; and he that violated this precept, according to the traditions of the Jews, was to be beaten. Maimonides F11 says,
``he that breaks a bone in a pure passover, lo, he is to be beaten, as it is said, "and a bone ye shall not break in it": and so it is said of the second passover, "and a bone ye shall not break in it"; but a passover which comes with uncleanness, if a man breaks a bone in it, he is not to be beaten: from the literal sense it may be learned, that a bone is not to be broken, whether in a pure or defiled passover: one that breaks a bone on the night of the fifteenth, or that breaks a bone in it within the day, or that breaks one after many days, lo, he is to be beaten; wherefore they burn the bones of the passover in general, with what is left of its flesh, that they may not come to damage: none are guilty but for the breaking of a bone on which there is flesh of the quantity of an olive, or in which there is marrow; but a bone in which there is no marrow, and on which there is no flesh of the quantity of an olive, a man is not guilty for breaking it; and if there is flesh upon it of such a quantity, and he breaks the bone in the place where there is no flesh, he is guilty, although the place which he breaks is quite bare of its flesh: he that breaks after (another) has broken, is to be beaten.''
And with these rules agree the following canons F12,
``the bones and sinews, and what is left, they burn on the sixteenth day, but if that falls on the sabbath, they burn them on the seventeenth, because these do not drive away the sabbath or a feast day.''
And so it fell out this year in which Christ suffered, for the sixteenth was the sabbath day: again,
``he that breaks a bone in a pure passover, lo, he is to be beaten with forty stripes; but he that leaves anything in a pure one, and breaks in an impure one, is not to be beaten with forty stripes;'' yea, they say F13, though ``it was a little kid and tender, and whose bones are tender, they may not eat them; for this is breaking of the bone, and if he eats he is to be beaten, for it is the same thing whether a hard or a tender bone be broken.''
Now in this as in many other respects the paschal lamb was a type of Christ, whose bones were none of them to be broken, to show that his life was not taken away by men, but was laid down freely by himself; and also the unbroken strength of Christ under the weight of sin, the curse of the law, and wrath of God, and conflict with Satan, when he obtained eternal redemption for us: and also this was on account of his resurrection from the dead, which was to be in a few days; though had his bones been broken he could easily have restored them, but it was the will of God it should be otherwise. Moreover, as none of the bones of his natural body were to be broken, so none that are members of him in a spiritual sense, who are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, shall ever be lost.
F9 Bereshit Rabba, sect. 28. fol. 23. 3. Vajikra Rabba, sect. 18. fol. 159. 3. Zohar in Gen. fol. 51. 1. & 82. 1.
F11 Hilchot Korban Pesach. c. 10. sect. 1, 2, 3, 4.
F12 Misn. Pesachim, c. 7. sect. 10, 11.
F13 Maimon. Korban Pesach. c. 10. sect. 9.
Mitch:
What is it with you and this obsession with bone day?
GE:
You are obsessed with knowing your ignorance. I have the answer; you do not have one. I have peace in this knowledge; you are plagued with unrest in your lack of this knowledge --- my dear man. You do not know what you are missing. That's a pity.
OR:
Why not post all that Gill wrote. It certainly makes more sense than the excerpt:
GE:
Thanks, Ol' Regular. You will agree many more expositors will tell you the same.
But never say or ask more than what they say. Specifically, Don't even think about THE DAY of this prophetic fulfillment.
For 2300 years the question has never been asked— where do you [that's me] come from to think you have the answer?!
THE BEST rebuttal I have received so far has been : But I don't fear these mighty men of learning and integrity; not in their hordes do I fear any men!
Because it was in closest nexus of his Suffering of the Passover of Yahweh, that Jesus Christ EVERY MOMENT STEP BY STEP "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" FULFILLED HIS "Bone-Day" : "THIS THAT VERY BONE-DAY WHOLE-DAY"
1) of his suffering in dying the death of death;
2) of his “passover” / “Gilgal” - “Roll-over” under the CLOUD of God’s PRESENCE in death’s sleep of peace and rest;
3) of his TRIUMPH “RAISED BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER”.
This is Jesus’ “Bone-Day”; this is what is denied with mocking and ridicule. This is the irrefutable TRUTH of the core reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ “the SIGN of the prophet(s)”— the Suffering Servant of the Lord in Triumphal Procession from the Table to the Tabernacle of his Tomb “and His Name when being RESTED UP AGAIN: The Most Holy Place”. Isaiah 57:15.
Walter:
So, I'm guessing that your point is that Christ's sacrifice would have taken place on a different day (Thursday?) rather than what Christians have been observing (Good Friday) for 2,000 years? What you call 'Bone-Day'? The Passover lamb was to be a "male without defect," which is the same description given to Jesus. In addition, when the lamb was roasted and eaten, none of its bones were to be broken. But, what I have gathered from reading the articles on your website is that you don't believe Christ died on Friday and that you assemble on Saturday (Sabbath) to observe the Lord's Supper (paschal feast)? I'm asking because I am having trouble following the articles. However, in one of your articles the discussion that followed centered around Acts 2:42 'They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer'. In the discussion I noticed nobody questioned that the 'breaking of bread' was the Lord's Supper but the debate was over 'when' this should occur.
I'm asking because I don't want to misrepresent your position.
Tony:
I just did a Google search for "Bone-Day" and "Bone-Day Christianity" and the only hits I got were from Gerhard posting on this forum and on another forum in June of 2014. Neither place posits any real scripture detailing this "bone-day" nor what it means for us.
GE:
I shall do my best to go slow.
Therefore let us begin at the beginning ... IN THE SCRIPTURES!
Bone-Day [etsem yom] incidences
…in Genesis …
Genesis 7
“11 In THE SAME DAY [HADZEH YOM] all the fountains of the great deep were broken up … 13 in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] entered Noah … into the ark.”
“…in the selfsame whole day bone day… [etsem yom] …as when in the days of Noah an ark was being prepared the longsuffering of God waited wherein souls through watery [grave] were saved … by the Resurrection of Christ… For Christ has once suffered for [our] sins that He might bring us to God, He being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit.” 1Peter 3:20,21,18.
Genesis 17
“23 Abraham circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as God had said unto him …7 I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy Seed [Christ]… 26 in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] (stricken in age) Abraham was circumcised… And the LORD appeared unto him… pass not away from thy servant… wash your feet and rest yourself under the tree… Abraham fetched a calf… a young man hasted to dress it… And [the LORD] stood by them and they did eat. And [the LORD] said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and lo, (waxed old) Sarah thy wife shall have a son… at the appointed time I shall return.”
Genesis 50
“20 God meant to bring to pass as it is THIS DAY to save much people alive. 21 Now fear ye not : I will nourish you and your little ones. And he comforted them and spake kindly to them. 24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I DIE : and God will surely visit you and bring you out of this land unto the land which He sware unto Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. 25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up from hence my BONES—26 SO JOSEPH DIED being an hundred and ten years old : and [having been buried in a grave] they embalmed him, and he was PUT IN A COFFIN in Egypt…”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial day and future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Bone-Day [etsem yom] incidences
…in Exodus …
Exodus 12
“17 Ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread for in THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe THIS DAY… by an ordinance for ever
18 in the fourteenth day of the (First) Month (6 Israel shall kill the passover)... strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood and none of you shall go out of his house… 23 For the LORD will pass through to smite [with the plague] the Egyptians… The LORD will pass over and will not suffer the destroyer to come unto your houses to smite you.”
Exodus 12
“41 Even THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] it came to pass that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt—
42 it is a NIGHT to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt : THIS IS THAT NIGHT of the LORD… 43 THIS IS THE ORDINANCE OF THE PASSOVER…
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye BREAK / SEVER A BONE thereof.
8 they shall EAT the flesh in THAT NIGHT roast with FIRE… not raw nor cooked with water but roast with FIRE; head with legs and with the purtenance thereof…
10 and that which remain the next day ye shall BURN WITH FIRE …
12 I will pass through THIS NIGHT … the PLAGUE shall not be upon you.”
Exodus 12
“51 It came to pass THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out…
13 God led the people about through the way of the wilderness of the Red Sea… and Moses took the BONES of Joseph with him for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my BONES away hence with you.”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial day and future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Now Exodus ends with an apocalyptic vision of Christ’s bones and day of burial…
Exodus 24:
10 They saw the God of Israel: and under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone [having been] THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as it were the body of heaven in his clearness …
Exodus 14:5,4 THIS DAY [of ‘etsem yom’] came ye out in the month Abib… by Strength of Hand the LORD brought you out from this place (of death) where no Bread of Life shall be eaten.
The Book of Genesis as fulfilled in the passover in Exodus is seen further expanded upon and added to in Leviticus …
Bone-Day [etsem yom] incidences
…in Leviticus …
Leviticus 23:
“21 Ye shall proclaim on THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY
BONE DAY [etsem yom] … as ye shall REAP … the corners of thy field… 10 When ye shall reap … ye shall BRING a sheaf of the firstfruits unto the priest and on the day after the sabbath [it rested over] the priest shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted for you 14 …the very selfsame Whole Day Bone Day [ad hadzeh etsem yom] that ye have brought an offering [of the passover lamb].
“14 The very selfsame Whole Day Bone Day” [ad hadzeh etsem yom] encompassed…
“9 The LORD spake unto Moses…
“5 In the fourteenth day is the LORD’S passover
First addition: “sabbath rest day”
“6 and on the FIFTEENTH DAY of the month is the FEAST…
“Seven days unleavened bread ye shall eat…
“7 In the first day is holy convocation…
“no servile work shall ye do.
“10 In it (is) a sabbath rest day [of the first sheaf]…
Second addition: “first sheaf of firstfruits”
“11 On the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it—the first sheaf.”
“Three days thick darkness” encompassed “the very selfsame
Whole Day Bone Day” [ad hadzeh etsem yom]” of the First Sheaf.
The First Sheaf rested over in the darkness of death and grave “on the sabbath that day great day sabbath”, “the fifteenth day of the First Month” and “sabbath in between” of the passover, the day between “the fourteenth day the very Bone-Day that ye brought an offering (of sacrifice) and reaped and brought your sheaf, and “the day after the sabbath” when “the Priest
wave(d) the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month (when) they finished to cleanse the sanctuary”.
Third addition: “fifty days”
“From… the day after the sabbath”—“the sabbath day” after
“the selfsame bone-day” that the first sheaf was “reaped from the corners of thy field” and was “brought to the priest” to rest over “the sabbath day” before it would be “wave(d) on the day after the sabbath” … “from the day after the sabbath begin count” FIFTY DAYS to Shavuot / Pentecost!
“The LORD spake to Moses… 11 On the day after the sabbath the Priest shall wave the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month they finished to cleanse the sanctuary.”
“15 Ye shall count from the day…” on which the LORD vanquished the darkness of the plague.
The LORD of the “three days thick darkness” of the plague, “on the third day”, “finished”.
“From the day after the (passover) sabbath, begin count!” It does not say begin count after the day after the sabbath; and it does not say begin count from the sabbath. The LORD commanded “count from / with / on the day after the sabbath.”
Fourth addition ‘Yom Kippur’
to “THIS THAT VERY SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom]” : Yom Kippur Day of Atonement Day of Judgment—mid-year’s Little Passover.
“46 That your generations may know that I made the children
of Israel to dwell in booths [for forty years after the passover of Yahweh] when I brought them out of the land of Egypt”…
“27 …on the tenth day of the Seventh Month
“28 …ye shall do no work in “THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom]
“29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be AFFLICTED IN THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], he shall be cut off from among his people
“30 and whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], the same soul I will destroy.”
“THREE DAYS thick darkness” which in Exodus coincided on and converged in and merged with “THIS THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom]”, “great day sabbath” of the passover of Yahweh and the “goings out” of Israel out of Egypt, in Leviticus coincided on and converged in and merged with “this the…” three times: “selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]” on the one day and “shabbath shabbathon … Day of Affliction and Atonement”, of Yahweh who dwells “among his People”, the children of iasrael who now “tabernacled”, “in, the land the LORD had sworn”— so “that your generations may know that I-AM-THE-LORD your God and that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths WHEN I BROUGHT THEM OUT of the land of Egypt.”
Noteworthy is it that the fifteenth day of the First Month and the tenth day of the Seventh Month were both on the Sixth Day of the week, and that in both feasts “the day after the sabbath” of the feast, was “the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”. In neither case “the day after the sabbath” of the feast, was on the First Day of the week.
Therefore, by counting the single-day pertaining to the tenth day of the Seventh Month thrice called “the selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]” as incidences relating to the matter at hand, the Passover of Yahweh which was the first and main and original feast of Israel and the LORD of Israel from which all subsequent feasts evolved, the number of incidences of the use of the phrase ‘etsem yom’ applicable to the passover, stands at 9 out of 12, or, 75%. But taking into account the 3, 4, proleptic, anticipating and prospective instances of ‘etsem yom’ in Genesis 7, 17 and 50, the number of incidence of its use for “the selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]” of the PASSOVER, is 12, 13 out of 12, 13 or 100%. Nevertheless it , and, and that .
So; let us go on …
Later and Institutionalised instances of the use of ‘etsem yom’ …in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua …
…in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua …
Numbers…
The words “bone” – ‘etsem’ and “day” – ‘yom’ do not occur in a closed phrase in Numbers.
The most significant incidence in chapter 9:12 (Exodus 12:46) of ‘etsem’, “break / sever no bone of it” (John 19:36), bears upon a fourteenth day of the First Month though, postponed to the fourteenth day of the Second Month, but nevertheless “(kept) according to ALL the ordinances of the passover … on THAT DAY…”, “…THE DAY THAT the tabernacle (‘mishkan’ - place / rest-bed) —the tent (‘ohel’ - ‘covering’)—, was reared over the ark (‘aron’ - “coffin”) of the testimony.” 9:9,12; 7:89.
“Thou broughtest up this people IN THY MIGHT from among the Egyptians!” It was “the Whole-Day the Selfsame BONE-DAY” of the passover, that the tabernacle was first reared over the mercy seat over the ark of the testimony and the Cloud of the Presence of the LORD was upon and “as the appearance of FIRE” covered withal, verse 15.
Numbers 9 contains an absolute incidence of the Bone-Day of the passover, therefore. And so we have 14 out of 14 incidences of “Bone-Day” being the passover’s day of the Dead being Buried—100%!
In Numbers 19 there is the clear connection with the word ‘etsem’ - “BONE… One SLAIN…”, and “GRAVE”, verse 18.
In Numbers 24:8, “God brought Israel forth out of Egypt… He shall break the BONES of his enemies and PIERCE them through with his arrows.” “Bones” and passover are together once again, even the day that they pierced the side of Jesus but broke no bone of his!
Virtually every incidence of ‘etsem’ - “bone”, and the dark day(s) of Israel when the LORD brought them out of Egypt, are of the essence, so much so that the final days in which Israel passed over out of the wilderness into the land the LORD had sworn to bring them into, are identical in Deuteronomy 32:48 and Joshua 5:11.
“The LORD spake unto Moses THE SELFSAME BONE-DAY (#15), saying, Get thee up into this mountain… and behold the land of Canaan… and DIE in the mount and be gathered unto thy people [that is, be BURIED]… So Moses died there and the LORD BURIED HIM.
“The LORD spake unto Joshua, My servant. Moses, is DEAD.
Now therefore arise, GO OVER this Jordan… Then Joshua commanded… PREPARE, for WITHIN THREE DAYS ye shall pass over this Jordan to GO IN to POSSESS the land… On THAT DAY, the LORD magnified Joshua… the Selfsame BONE-DAY (#16) (they) did eat unleavened cakes”. Joshua 5:11,12.
The people came up out of Jordan on the TENTH day of the First Month… and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the (First) Month… and in the selfsame BONE-DAY on the day after the passover did eat unleavened cakes.” Now the prophet Ezekiel calls “the tenth day of the First Month”, “the SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE-DAY”— “In the beginning of the year in the tenth day of the (First) Month… in the SELFSAME BONE-DAY (#17) the hand of the LORD was upon me.” Ezekiel 40:1.
The passover therefore had four days which were “BONE-DAY”, but most important was “the fourteenth day” as seen in the examples above. And in Joshua “after the passover on the fourteenth day of the (First) Month, the fifteenth day of the First Month—without saying—, was “the Selfsame BONE-DAY (they) did eat unleavened cakes”. Joshua 5:11,12.
So all “three days thick darkness” of the ninth and tenth plagues, plus “the tenth day of the First Month”, were “the Selfsame BONE-DAY” : BECAUSE OF BEING DAYS OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH—17 out of 17 times.
So far in the Pentateuch all occurrences of the Hebrew phrase, ‘etsem-yom’—“Bone-Day”, were PASSOVER BURIAL DAY occurrences. Yet the learned say it does not exist. It does not exist?! It exists! It exists, 100% as the BURIAL-DAY of the passover of Yahweh, the fourteenth and fifteenth day(s) of the First Month most pertinently.
... and Jesus Christ never had anything to do with any of all this; and all this never had anything to do with Jesus Christ ... if we must believe those who say there is no such thing as Jesus' Bone-Day.
Tony:
You keep saying that this phrase is there, yet you haven't really explained what it is supposed to mean and how it is supposed to be relevant to us today.
On the other web forum where you posted this, you made a fairly grand statement that rediscovering the Hebrew text will open up new understanding of the scripture:
QuoteGE:It's back to basics - back to the Hebrew for the first time in history. That will put you on the way to the future, because the translation of the Gospel will NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN FOR YOU after you have grasped the meaning of Jesus' Bone Day YOURSELF.QE
No offense intended, but that statement seems to carry some sort of mysticism, almost like a Bible Code type intention. I'm pretty sure people have been going back to the Hebrew for a long time. This isn't the first time in history anyone has looked at the Hebrew text.
And you say the translation of the gospel will never be the same once you understand the meaning of Jesus's Bone Day. Yet you haven't explained it. You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old Testament.
GE:
You touched upon many aspects. It cannot all be explained in
one short sentence or paragraph or even book.
But before anything else, not for the first time in this very short discussion, come on, be honest and live up to Christian principle of trust and objectivity, and kindly let it be the last time that I must react to this kind of thing,
I HAD NO IDEA that anything like the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh existed or lurked somewhere hidden in the Scriptures. Not the faintest suspicion! Now for the shock: while all along it was lying open and dry on the surface like the bones in Ezekiel’s vision, WAITING for the Voice of God to come together and resurrect with sinews and flesh and body visible and real.
The “SUBSTANCE” of the “Bone-Day” is there in the Scriptures very much alive. What I have above quoted FROM THE WORD OF GOD, is what it IS: solidly is proving, namely, proving ITSELF!
Jesus’ Bone-Day is none of my or anyone in history’s dreams, wishes or imagination or arrogation. It is most substantial essence of God’s Truth you will find in the SCRIPTURES CONCERNING THE CHRIST HOW HE OUGHT TO SUFFER AND RESURRECT for the salvation of you and me!
Take Jesus’ Bone-Day out of the Old Testament, and remove the Gospel of Jesus Christ from the Old and, New Testaments. Which tells you it HAS BEEN OF THE ESSENCE OF THE GOSPEL in the Scriptures all along and despite its mysterious hiddenness ever since the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures.
When I was a youngster, I knew of two Violin Concertos of Nicolo Paganini. In the ‘World of Music’ published in 1957, these two concertos are listed. I still have one of—if not the—best ever performances of those two concertos (by Rigiero Rici). Even he had no idea four more concertos of Paganini lay hidden in obscurity waiting to be discovered.
Was it some dreamer or mystic who exposed their existence? No, it was a sober detective so to speak. A detective is a person who picks up ‘leads’ and ‘traces’ like a bloodhound, smell. But he has to be awake, that bloodhound. Or he has to be AWAKENED. He must be awakened to a peculiar smell by that smell HELD TO HIS NOSE, to follow it to its SOURCE.
So then, credit to the TRANSLATORS of the Scriptures who put me on the trail after the BONE of the “Bone-Day” of Jesus Christ “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God” in type “killed on the fourteenth day of the First Month”, returned to dust “the following day…on the fifteenth”, and “carried through” the Red Sea “into the Land the LORD sware to give” Him --- “the Kingdom of his dear Son”.
That was how you and I, received entrance into the Kingdom of God—through Jesus of Nazareth on Bone-Day in his grave “HEWN IN ROCK” in the “Bone-Day” of his Burial.
You know of another way? Of some trick to fool God with and bypass Jesus’ GRAVE “on Bone-Day”? You know of some ecstasy, some dope or potion to offer Him on a reed to intoxicate his senses and we under the influence of the same ourselves, could slip in unawares?
Well, I don’t.
Woody:
Is this making any sense to anyone else?
Con:
No
GE:
Says who? He who does not understand, of course. And more probably has no desire to understand...
Con:
I have no clue what you {GE}'re conveying, but I'm gonna put a "whoa there" on you with this post...
GEQ... and Jesus Christ never had anything to do with any of all this; and all this never had anything to do with Jesus Christ ... if we must believe those who say there is no such thing as Jesus' Bone-Day.QE
Jesus stated, Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;
All scripture, Old and New Testament, has to do with Christ and Christ has to do with it. This bible we cherish is Jesus' autobiography penned by holy men of God who wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....every word of it, in some way, points to Christ...
Tony:
... you say the translation of the gospel will never be the same once you understand the meaning of Jesus's Bone Day. Yet you haven't explained it. You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old Testament.
GE:
The passover’s Bone-Day explains itself which was why !! The translation of the Gospel is what proves it never will be same again! EXACTLY!
Here is some information for you which every Christian in the world has had in his possession for about a century long already.
Anybody with help of the internet can test the truth of what I am telling you now, for himself. You can prove it with only your own language, English!
Notice the changes made in the TRANSLATION of the New Testament since the end of the nineteenth century and start of the twentieth century. Now those changes are more obvious if the ‘old’ English translations are compared with translations of other languages of the twentieth century. For example, the first African language the Bible was translated in, was ‘Tswana’, and the Translator was Moffat, an Englishman missionary. He translated the King James Version. He did not translate the Greek.
Changes or differences between the KJV and Tswana were insignificant.
Suddenly mid-twentieth century, changes became substantial and meaningful, and—above all—UNIVERSAL. The changes in the new English translation became very much the same than in Turkish for example. Or in Afrikaans, my tongue. Or in Dutch from which Afrikaans developed. And so in any language one can think of around the world.
That proves all new translations came from an orchestrated and CENTRALIZED effort. In fact in those days the ‘dynamic equivalent method’ to translate the Bible started to get momentum.
I was on the school benches then; had no desire to know about Bible translation then.
The market for new translations got bullish again in the seventies and eighties. And I was a ‘middle aged’. Now I have seen the New International Version by that time while the new Afrikaans translation was prepared for publication. This translation was way back in the fifties actually made a beginning with. So I warned specifically pertaining Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57, that the New International Version’s PERVERSION should not be followed, and that “when the even was come”, should not be made “as evening approached”—NIV, or, “late noon”—the New Afrikaans Translation of the fifties, ‘Die Blye Boodskap’!
But what happened?
The translators in reaction against their better knowledge and in agreement with the popular, universal trend, WENT AHEAD with copying the New International Version! ‘Die Bybel, Nuwe Afrikaanse Vertaling’ was published with Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 saying, “laat die middag”—‘late noon’ instead of “when evening had come”.
What was or is the significance?
The significance was that “ALL THIS…” WHICH WENT BEFORE “…happened the day before the Sabbath” (Living Bible), instead of all this which HAPPENED AFTER or which CAME AFTER Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38 Luke 23:50.
What did or does it mean?
It means that where Jesus’ crucifixion and death had happened before the evening had come, his burial now also had happened before the evening had come.
It means that everything which would and which eventually did happen after sunset (—that Joseph obtained the body of Jesus and in the closing of “that day” closed the grave—), now happened while it was “late noon” and ”evening was approaching”.
It means—AS THEY SAY—, that Jesus was ‘buried on Friday before sunset and the start of the Sabbath’.
It means Jesus was crucified and died and was buried THE SELFSAME DAY—‘Friday’. So that the Church observes Good Friday, Still Saturday and Easter Sunday—‘Resurrection Sunday’.
That is what you get when you CORRUPT the SCRIPTURES that say Jesus’ “WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY” of the Passover-of-Yahweh was “the following day ye shall burn with fire that which REMAINED” of the Sacrifice and return the body to the earth, and inter and bury Him.
Tony:
I'm pretty sure people have been going back to the Hebrew for a long time. This isn't the first time in history anyone has looked at the Hebrew text.
....
you haven't explained it. You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old Testament.
GE:
And when they could not make progress, they resorted to the Greek of the 70 JEWS --- who also were clueless and at a loss to the TRUE meaning of the Hebrew.
Moses needed Christ to be understood; those Jews were clueless about Jesus Christ as well.
Ezekiel's bones in the valley of bones ...
Was it you who wrote ?
No? Well I'm you were in agreement with ...
However, I can assure you this is, from the perspective of the Bone-Day itself!
Tony:
GEQ However, I can assure you this is, from the perspective of the Bone-Day itself!QE
I bolded a statement of yours above, because I'm curious. Just as a side bar, who exactly are the 70 Jews you are referencing here?
GE:
The ('famous') ‘seventy (‘LXX’) men’ referred to by one Aristeas who called himself a ‘writer’ in a [fictitious?] letter, who in 72 days finished to translate “the Jewish Law” [which description for the OT Scriptures I doubt they would have used]. Anyway the LXX were actually 72— six ‘Jews’ out of each tribe of the children of Israel. Usually the ‘LXX’ or ‘Septuagint’ is claimed to be “the earliest version of the Old Testament Scriptures which is extant”. There are presumably a number of extant fragments of other copies of other translations by other translators who knows?
Tony:
Okay, so just so that I'm clear on this: You, a native speaker of Afrikaans, have discovered something in the Hebrew text that not even 72 men who lived in the 3rd century BC and who actively spoke Hebrew alongside Koine Greek were able to determine? Seeing as biblical Hebrew was a relatively in-use language up until the Roman conquest of AD 70, then these men would've known what they were talking about.
GE:
Correct; they did not know what they were talking about.
There are several reasons for stating this.
One. As you can see the story about the origin of the LXX is a bit of a fairy tale.
Finished in 72 days? Without Google?!
70 gentlemen, six out of each of twelve tribes?
Twelve tribes? By +-250 BC? Were there not by then 11 or just 1 tribe left? My history is bad.
Were there 66 books comprising the Law of Moses? My maths is worse than my history.
Nevertheless, states the foreword to my edition,
"We have now to speak of the labours of Origen in connection with the text of the Septuagint. This learned and enterprising scholar, having acquired a knowledge of Hebrew, found that in many respects the copies of the Septuagint differed from the Hebrew text. It seems to be uncertain whether he regarded such differences as having arisen from mistakes on the part of copyists, or from errors of the ORIGINAL TRANSLATORS THEMSELVES." [emphasis GE]
I think that will be enough for now. Anyhow there is more.
But you know what puzzles me most?
The fact the LXX translates the Hebrew Relative Pronouns which are used in conjunction with the Adverbial ‘etsem yom’, literally correct, with “THAT day” - ‘EKEINEH hehmera’ [[I’ll, DV., shall show you that later.]] But they literally REFRAIN from translating or trying to translate the ‘etsem yom’ ‘etsem’ and ‘yom’ - “bone and “day”, IN ANY WAY.
That means much more than meets the eye. That means exactly what does not meet the eye, so that exactly what the 70 thought they had COVERED up, THEY THEMSELVES would in the last analysis (and ‘last times’) have EXPOSED—which was, that they DID NOT KNOW what the , ‘etsem yom’, mean!
Therefore do not say I say I discovered the Bone-Day. Here you see who discovered it. THE TRANSLATORS!
The identical thing which happened with me and the TRANSLATION FRAUD that went on with “THE SELFSAME WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY of Our Passover in the Gospels.
If somebody must be blamed for it, blame the translators. If someone might be thanked for it, you must rather thank God and his Providence than me.
Tony:
Well, the trick is you are basing this theory off a Hebrew construct, "etsem yom," that simply does not occur in the Hebrew, unless you begin disassociating the individual Hebrew. There are occurrences of "hayom" and occurrences of "b'etsem", sometimes in close conjunction, but never as simply "etsem yom," as you are arguing.
Didn't take much Google searching to find that one out.
.
GE:
Hehehehe parrot!
You'd be a worse 'copyist' than those Origen had in mind. If you were a GOOD ‘copyist’ though, you would have had to COPY 18—that’s right, 18!—, REAL occurrences of the 'etsem-yom' --- to transliterate the phrase the way Dr Robert Young did in his ‘Analytical Concordance’. Or like Wigram transliterates it in his ‘Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament', ................
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