Lansing Bible Class - About IDMR Lansing
1) * 1959: LAW OF THE SPIRIT VERSUS SCIENCE OF MIND *
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Los Angeles, California
audio cassette recording received from Lee Warren (#l)
1 90 minute audio cassette tape
Catalog#: 59 LS
1980
originally transcribed by Beverly Allen
originally proofread by Mary Gross
1997
first proofreading: Laurie Steinberg
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Dr. Kinley: Thank you Dr. Harris, Dr. Gross. I want to say that I did enjoy Dr. Anderson's discussion, discourse there this morning, which he presented faithfully. It was many things that he said, if we make notes of them in our mind and follow them out, we'll find ____ ____ ____. I was glad that Dr. Anderson, I count him as one of us, that he is really with us. Now I want to tell you why. Is is because he is a man that has experience, worked in all of the various different phases of science. He's not an idiot by means when it comes to knowing all of the things that modern science has delved in today that are secrets with the government, not exposed to everybody, such as Nuclear Research, and we're happy to have someone with us that has worked in that field, the scientist up to date with the rest of the world. Then when it comes to philosophy, he is a master in that and in the meantime he's qualified as, as far as my knowledge extends as anyone in LA, and so far as to expand it, I would say that having the opportunity to work in those various different fields and be a educator himself so therefore I would say that he is an authority and for that reason I say to you to dwell on those things that he says to you from time to time.
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Now we have in the paper for our subject this morning the Law of the Spirit versus Science of Mind. Now, there's a whole lot of debate in these last days and I want you to do a little reading in the Bible. I want you to look at and observe closely, take it home, study it over, and that is Matthew the 24th chapter and the 15th verse. All of these things that I will say to you this morning I'm going to try to pin point them so that you don't get off on any ramifications. When you have found it read it.
Reader: When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
Dr. Kinley: When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, read.
Reader: spoken of by Daniel the Prophet
Dr. Kinley: spoken of by Daniel the Prophet
Reader: stand in the Holy Place.
Dr. Kinley: stand in the Holy Place. These are Jesus' words, read.
Reader: Whosoever readeth, let him understand.
Dr. Kinley: Who so readeth, let him understand. When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place, who so readeth let him understand. Now, everybody has a Bible we've read that many times. Some of us sufficiently could repeat it, but now when we begin to analyze and to look and see what Christ really was talking about, read on down to the 24th verse, 24:24 just read that verse, 24:24.
Reader: For there shall arise false Christ
Dr. Kinley: Now here's the reason why, that when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, now here's why you should stand in the Holy Place, and here's why you should understand what you read. This is the reason why. Alright read.
Reader: For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets
Dr. Kinley: For there shall arise false christs. Dr. Anderson told you about anti christs (anti-christs?). For there shall arise false christs and false prophets. Then what are they going to do?
Reader: And shall show great signs and wonders
Dr. Kinley: And shall show great signs and wonders, great signs and wonders, and then what?
Reader: Insomuch that if it were possible
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Dr. Kinley: Insomuch that if it were possible
Reader: They shall deceive the very elect
Dr. Kinley: They would deceive the very elect. Now I don't have to go into no whole lot of polytechnical exegetical analyses to let you know what's going on in the world. You know as well as I do about the many that have come out in these last days and showed many signs and wonders.
Now that brings me up to say this: the leading chronologists in the world today, the very best of them, they have said that B.C. 4004, that means four thousand and four years before the birth of Christ, Adam was in the garden of Eden, the first man on the face of the earth, a physical man. And now we're living now, everybody knows, in 1959 A.D., anno Domini and when you put those two things together, then you have 5 9 6 3, that's A.M. That's in the year of the world, that means taken before and after, it's 5963 years. Now this four years that we have on here, I want you to look at it, 2nd Peter 3rd chapter and 8th verse, and then I'm going to go into the details of it, but I want you to look. The 3rd chapter of 2nd Peter and the 8th verse.
Reader: But beloved be not ignorant
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Reader: of this one thing
Dr. Kinley: But beloved be not ignorant, of this one thing. Now, if you don't know nothing else don't be ignorant of this one thing. This is the Apostle Peter talking to the Jews, his epistle was to the Jews, and he's telling them, beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, this is one thing he don't want you to be ignorant about, and that is this, what?
Reader: That one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
Dr. Kinley: Now beloved be not ignorant of this one thing that one day with the Lord, didn't say the man, but said one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. Now then that brings me to this conclusion. Now if a thousand years is as one day, with the Lord, Peter doesn't want me to be ignorant of it. And now as I told you, 4004 years, that 1959 added together makes 5963. Now if one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. Now we understand from Genesis, and you might read there, the 20th chapter of Exodus, I want you to see that, where Peter, where Moses said remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy, for in six days, that's the point I want you to see, is the 6 days God created the heavens and earth, in 6 days. Now He created it in 6 days, 6 days, and one day with the Lord was as a thousand years, and He created it in 6 days, then that would be 6000 years. Is that right? Counting one day for a year. Now He worked 6 days in creating the heavens and earth. Now here is the little picture here on the chart. The children of Israel went
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out of Egypt, they put the blood on each side of the lintel of the door at the passover and up over the top of the door. And now it was dark down in Egypt when that blood was put on that door. This is the beginning of that migration or that trek from Egypt to Canaan Land, and that complete cycle to the building of the temple was 490 years or 70 weeks. Now then here after they had went through there, God called, spoke from Mt. Sinai and give them this law that you are reading about, told them I am the Lord thy God, there's no mistake about who I am, I want you to know that I am the Lord thy God that brought thee out of the land of Egypt and out of the house of bondage, thou shalt not have no other gods before me. And so now, after He had spoke the law, then He called Moses, Nadab and Abihu and 70 of the Elders up into Mt. Sinai and He manifested Himself to them in a vision. I am talking about the 24th Chapter of Exodus and from the 9th to the 15th verse, now you can look it up, it's there in your Bible. I'll put it down here so that you can see, Exodus, whether I'm telling you the truth. Exodus 24th Chapter and read from the 24th chapter and read from the 9th through about the 15th or 16th verse, you'll find what I'm talking about, so you can copy it, so you won't forget.
So then, after they had saw Him in the form of a man, lots of people I've read, and some were here this morning talked about anthropomorphism. Anthropomorphism means this, that it represents the deity or god in human form. And they say, 'well, we don't have that because we don't believe that God is a man sitting up in the sky.' Neither do I. But now He showed Himself to Moses in the form, incorporeal, not physical, incorporeal form and then when Moses had seen Him create Adam in this vision, then he knew that God had made man in His own likeness and in His own image. He was a man himself and he could see the man Adam that God had made by looking at himself, even though this be 2000 years from that time, and that's how Moses was able to write the Genesis, was because he is telling you in the first chapter of Genesis and what he is seeing in the vision. Definitely and positively he was not co-eternal with God, neither was he there at the time that the universe and it's totality was created. Anybody, a child in the first grade could, understand, you've told him these basic and fundamental principles of how God created everything and then say that 2000 years after God created everything then come along Moses and when Moses is writing about what God created then you began to wonder how that Moses could know what God created when he was born 2000 years after Adam was created. And how could he write about what God did on the first day. The truth about it is Moses, being up in this cloud, listen carefully, and weigh it carefully, Moses being up in this cloud, in the top of Mt. Sinai and seeing it in a vision, this entrance into the cloud was symbolical of entering into eternity and God is showing him by a vision and he sees God go through the process of creating the heavens and the earth. He was not there. Now then, that's how he was able to write the story and tell you in the beginning. 'In the beginning of the creation?' I beg your pardon. No, in the beginning of the vision, not in the beginning of the creation as you read your Bible. It says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters and God said let there be light and there was light. Now what he is talking about is the beginning of the vision, not the beginning of creation, and that was not the beginning of the creation. If you read Revelations
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3 and 14 it would tell you that what the real true beginning of the creation was, and that was this: God taking on this physical form and you will find that in the 3rd chapter of Revelations and the 14th verse, otherwise Moses with his mind, he couldn't perceive nothing abstract or something that wasn't there. And so God took on this incorporeal form. This great anthropomorphic form that He's in Himself. And then he saw.., He transformed Himself into this Tabernacle, and then afterwards into the, every animate and inanimate object that makes up your universe.
Now then, to connect up the thought of what I'm trying to tell you is this. Now he's up there in that mountain 40 days all total. 40 long days and nights and he was away from the children of Israel. Joshua and the other elders, they came back, and Aaron too and they got with the rest of them and God had kept Moses up there 40 days altogether. Now I just want to show you how that you can tell, what I'm after now is this 4000, that's what I'm after, to give you the reality of the flow of chronological calculations so that you can tell something about how to figure. Now if one day as she read here in 2nd Peter 3:8 and Psalms, that's where it come from, 90th chapter, 90th division of Psalms and the fourth verse, David said that one day was with the Lord was as yesterday when it was past or a thousand years is as yesterday when it is past. So now that's where Peter ____ ____ ____ ____. Now you watch the count down, watch the count down. Now if one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day then here is one day Moses describes in Genesis what took place the 2nd day, the 3rd day, the 4th day, the 5th day, the 6th day and also He rested on the 7th day. And each one of those days with the Lord was just like a thousand years.
Now if Moses is in this mountain and he sees God each day create, one of those days was just like a thousand years. The cardinal point now, the cardinal point, on the fourth day, on this fourth day. Now you look at this, one day with the Lord is as a thousand years. On this fourth day the sun, Moses said, God put in the sky, sun, moon, and stars. For what purpose? To rule the day and to rule the night to bring about the seasons of the year. And in Genesis the 8th Chapter and the 22nd verse, said day and night, summer and winter, seed time and harvest shall not cease as long as the earth remains. Go back and catch the cardinal point now. Here's one, two, three, four, and each one of those solar days that Moses was in the mountain seeing that vision was equivalent to 1000 years. And if the sun is put here in the sky to change, and the moon, to change the seasons, you just correspond that to the Son of God coming in the close of the fourth day, or the four thousandth year or the fourth millennium of time, He was due to be here. And as the sun, moon and stars changed the seasons, the Son of God come and changed from the season of the dispensation of the law to the season of Grace.
Now what I'm trying to get you to see is: now here's how we have set up this chronology. Now there's an error in it and I want to show it to you so that you can see. Peter did not say beloved be not ignorant of this one thing that one day with the Lord is as a thousand and one year, multiplied by four which would make 4004, it's not true, so then you'll have to take this 4 off, just have to take it right off of there. Now that's better, that's 4 days. So then that will change this down here
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to 59, in the year of the world. Now to line up and to show you what I'm trying to get over to you that's so serious. Jesus said, going back to our first thought, when you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, stand in the Holy Place, who so readeth let him understand. And we skipped on down, we wanted to show you there, here's the reason why. Many shall go, or false prophets and anti christs (anti-christs?) and so forth and so on shall arise and if it were possible they would deceive the very elect. Now I want you to see that God worked 6 days over here in Exodus the 20th Chapter in creating, how we're timing. God worked 6 days and one day was equivalent to a thousand years. Then as he put the B.C. 4004 and the 1959, which all of us recognize, together then we have a total of 5959 years as of now. Then if God worked 6 days then you have 6000 years, and if you would subtract this and then you would have 41 years. (DR. KINLEY WRITES ON THE BLACKBOARD.) That's what you would have left to work with to total of the 6000 years. Which means this, if there is any such thing as the abomination of desolation, if there is any such thing as anti christ, if there is any such thing as false prophets, if there's any necessity of you looking, it ought to be now! That's the thing I'm trying to show you. Is because the world is swept over with all kinds of religious theories and philosophies and doctrines and so forth and so on. So now since you don't have but 41 years more, 41 more to get to 6000 and then you will have worked your equivalent to God working in the creation and Him resting. So now Jesus said this, now if nobody's going to work overtime, because he said there that if those days were not shortened, there wouldn't be any flesh saved. So you can see how bad it is here right now at this particular time. Everything you can think of in the world religiously, is in the world today, anti christ and all. Now whether it's important or not to look round and investigate. Here we have them coming in "Life Magazine." I brought this book to show you some of the major religions, the greatest in the world. They went down to show the many different religions. Buddhism, Mohammedanism, Christianity as we know it to be, and all of the miscellaneous doctrines and philosophies, Methodist, and Baptist, and Presbyterians, and Camelites (Carmelites?), and Dunkards, and so forth and so on. Now the same thing was prevalent, Buddhism was about 600 years before the coming of Christ. Zoroaster was even before that and Zoroaster was a great philosopher. Plato, Aristotle, and those other philosophers, many of them were before the coming of Christ, basically upon which some of these religions have been established. They're all in the world today. Now these philosophies have been shaved down to fit the trend of the time to such a point where it's as deceptive as it can be. Satan is subtle, you cannot master him by yourself. It takes, as Peter said, your adversary, the devil, walking about to and fro in the earth seeking whom he may devour. You are no competition for him at all.
And so now our subject is this, I tried to show you what was in the world, I hope you understand it. Better than 600 different religious philosophies are saying nothing about the heathen, and they've come down now and they're so academically dressed up. All kinds. Here is one they sent with my name on, "The Challenge of One". I just got that book. You have all kinds of insignias and so forth and so on. This is a new one. I could go in there and drag you out many. Here is another to show you, Dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin. It has many charts and a lot of graphics showing ____ ____ created it, different charts
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showing their concepts of religious philosophies. See here, all through here. Here's another one. Seven Day Adventists. Now, you are confronted with this, this new thing, the most modern now is Science of Mind. (DR. KINLEY WRITES ON THE BLACKBOARD.) It's thousands of people going to hear, and it's very progressive. I would say that it is called modern, divine philosophical psychology, in fact that's exactly what it is. Now, the truth about it. Is the way it's being presented. Is that right? Is it a science of mind, catch the point?
Now we have the Law of the Spirit (DR. KINLEY WRITES ON THE BLACKBOARD) that's what you have, versus Science of mind, versus Science of mind. Now versus means this, it means there is a great difference between Science of Mind and the Law of the Spirit. What is the difference? Now, yes I've been ____, look I've studied for better than forty years of my life and there is no philosophy out that I haven't checked very, very closely. And I don't like bringing no accusation against anything that I don't have the ability to explain but my job is to teach. And in the year 1931 God gave me a revelation and a vision and I have attempted from that time until this present time to show you. Now there's no man, so far as our knowledge extends, going into these 27 years, there has been no man on the face of the earth, and we've encountered them with Ph.D. degrees, Master of Science, and Doctor of Divinity and everything else, all through the various different states. And if you tried to tell them that this was not a revelation, they would tell you to your face you're mistaken and you're prejudice. Now I didn't say of any particular religious denomination, I said all that I have ever encountered and we've encountered them from all kinds of different religions. But those that are leaders and experts in the field of theology and science, they will tell you without me designating any particular denomination, they'll tell you, anybody will tell you that it is true, that is a vision and revelation, they've been mistaken about. Now there must be some reason for them regardless of their religious affiliation and association, there must be some reason for that, and that's what I'm trying to get over to you now.
Now, in these last days as we have already stated, it has become so deceptive until it would deceive the very elect, if it were possible. Now what's going to keep it from deceiving the very elect? I say this to you, that Science of mind, ____ clear up, Science of Mind is alright in its place, but that's not the answer, that is not the answer, Science of Mind.
Now let me tell you some of the reasons why and let me see if I can illustrate it to you so that you can see. Now I realize that they get up and they speak of Christ. I realize that they speak of God in Science of Mind. I realize that many nice things are said. Last Sunday we were at the Franklin Life Insurance building, I believe it was over here on ____ Street, Dr. Gross and I. And it was, I'll say around 3,000 people there and the man spoke very nice. The thing that he said, I don't like to criticize nobody, but I tell you my job is trying to help you to see the truth between these slick things, so that you don't falter and make no mistakes.
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The man made this statement, he said there was a man, that in his home, he had two children and a nice wife and he was a habitual, he cursed habitually, and his wife, she didn't want him to curse around those children, teach those children no profanity, and so she resented it and he tried to stop, and he didn't do any good. So she persuaded him to go to Church and that's one of the places where he went, and so the psychologist told him this, said, 'now do you really want to stop?' He said, 'Yes, I've tried but I really want to stop.' 'And you've never had no success?' 'No.' He said, 'well I'll tell you what you do. Every time you curse, you give your wife five dollars.' And this is what he said, he stopped. Now let's say the man was a millionaire, a multi-millionaire. By giving his wife five dollars it wouldn't amount to anything, he'd kept cursing right on, give her five dollars and went right on.
Just like that case a man told me about in Columbus, Ohio. There was a man, he was a very wealthy man. He went in court and for some reason, I've forgot what he did say his reason for being there was. But any how the judge fined him twenty-five dollars for his offense. And he said, 'well,' to the judge that he didn't give one of those things. He cursed. And the judge called him, said, 'now look, you're in court, and these people that are setting here.' He says, 'now I'll have to fine you twenty-five dollars.' Now he's fined twenty-five dollars in the first place. 'I'll have to fine you twenty-five more dollars for using profane language in court, for that's contempt of court, and don't you ever do that anymore.' And so he said, 'oh I'll pay you the twenty-five dollars,' but he still didn't care. Told the judge what he.., he used that same statement. And so he said, 'twenty-five more,' that's what the judge told him. Now that's seventy-five dollars. And so he just run his hand in his pocket and paid the other twenty five dollars and said, 'I still don't care.' I ain't using the words he used. And as long as they would stay there and fool with him that way he kept telling the judge he just didn't care, he'd pay him the twenty-five dollars. And so they had to go on and let the man on out of there. So I'm saying to you, there should be a better remedy than just using such, employing such things that show a man would stop his habits.
Now the first thing is this. You did not get your habits, you didn't get them from God. For example, a lot of times we speak about overcoming some kind of habit such as smoking or chewing or drinking or something like that in Science of Mind and the application of it. You want to stop those things. They've got all kinds of remedies for it, and say, 'well, it's a sin.' Morally and socially we ought to behave ourselves, you ought to do this and that. Now when you go back to the roots of it, to show you the difference, back in the Garden of Eden back here, there wasn't any chewing tobacco back there. There wasn't any smoking cigars. They didn't have no whiskey back there for a man to get intoxicated. They never had any of the things that we strive so hard to overcome to be good Christians, never had any of that. There wasn't no whole lot of women back there to run around with. I just want to make it real clear and simple, that's the easiest way to do it.
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Now, what took place back here? That man just simply, Adam just simply disobeyed God. God told him not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and he did eat and therefore he transgressed the commandment of God. But now here we've come all the way down here and through our deception, and we as ministers, we don't know what to say when we get up to speak, unless we bank our subject on some moral or something like that. Just like the moral law and the people all over the world is being deceived by it. You just quit drinking and quit chewing and quit smoking and so forth and so on and then you're alright and we'll tell you how to overcome it. Now that hasn't got anything to do with it.
Now, let's get down to this. The Science of Mind, that's what is saying that Jesus will help you overcome all of your bad habits. And then say something nice like that. They'll say this, 'our bodies are torn, the mind is tricked,' maybe we have some ailment or some sickness or something like that. We say, 'well, if you look to the Lord and you lean on him, why then he'll heal your body and he'll heal your mind,' divine healing. And we hold that up, scientific thinking. Now look, it makes no difference if you're an atheist, agnostic or an infidel, God heals your mind right on, while you're cursing and carrying on, God heals you just the same. You don't believe it, cut your hand. Many of us have been scarred. Many of us have been bent over in pain because some malpractice operation in our physical body, and we've overcome it. God made a man, and He tells the law of the spirit, it functions, it operates like that to heal his body. There is no such thing as a divine healer on earth. Jesus said Himself, not my statement, it's His. He said, 'I can of My own self do nothing, My father which is in Me He doeth the works.' He didn't try to make a reputation for Himself based on being a great divine healer on radio or T.V. and all like-a-that. And then thousands of people going there expecting to be healed. He did not do it that way. But because of the fact that many people were healed, healed of all kinds of sickness, every kind that there was that God had afflicted the man with, Jesus healed. But He did not say, He did not say that He did it of His own self. He said, 'I can of My own self do nothing, My father in Me, He doeth the works.' Now I want you to see why I made that statement. I want you to see why I made that statement. Now the Law of the Spirit, now, my spelling ____. Now the Law of the Spirit, I want to show you why, I want you to turn now to John 4 and 24 in your Bibles. And read it when you find it.
Reader: God is a spirit
Dr. Kinley: God is a spirit
Reader: and they that worship him
Dr. Kinley: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. God, now I want you to hear. Now I'll try to stay down where I.., before I rave up here and get to talking so fast that you can't understand me. But I want to stay down and I want to make it real simple. Tuesday night and Thursday night, we'll still have this same subject. So I want to make it as simple as I possibly can today.
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Now the best authorities that's ever been in this world, there hasn't no other authority been here any more efficient in determining who God was than Jesus Christ. Do you agree?
Student Body: Uh, huh.
Dr. Kinley: I say He is the master lexicographer, the master lexicon. I say that there isn't no man on the face of the earth knows anything more about who God is than Jesus Christ. Will you buy that?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now that's who God is. God is spirit. Well somebody say, 'well I know that, Spirit and mind is one and the same thing.' Uh, uh. I know Webster can say that, but let me show you something. Malachi 3:6. We want to dig now because if you don't, we'll be deceived. Read.
Reader: For I am the Lord
Dr. Kinley: For I am the Lord
Reader: I change not
Dr. KinLey: I don't change!
Reader: Therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Dr. Kinley: Therefore you sons of Jacob
Reader: Are not consumed
Dr. Kinley: Are not consumed. That's the reason why you aren't consumed is because I am the Lord. I have purposed all the way down, I intended to populate the earth. Adam transgressed, he sinned, and Israel sinned. I am the Lord thy God for that reason why I have a purpose all the way down through the dispensations and ages and that's why you're not consumed. That's why you're not all wiped off, you forgot I don't change. Now, what's the difference, prove it by you. Mind: subject to change. Today you think one thing tomorrow you think something else. Now say I'm lying. Mind is finite, it is limited. Get it? You change from.., it's better to change sometime. Ain't that right? Change for what? For better or for worse. Mind that's.., God being spirit doesn't never change, no changes in it at all. That's the reason why I can't say Science of Mind. Why? Because the mind, it's changeable,
SIDE 2:
God never changes, he's spirit. Alright we might say this now, so also is.., let's call it the devil, he's spirit too. If you want to say God is spirit, then we'll just say devil. Now if you take the D in devil and then e v i l, digressing. Now let's see
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what about him. He ain't never gonna change either. Preach all you want to, never gonna be changed. Jude 6, I believe, read it. There's two great forces and neither one of them changes at all.
Reader: and the angels which kept not their first estate
Dr. Kinley: Now the angels... An angel is a ministering spirit. Which kept not their first estate. Alright read.
Reader: But left their own habitation
Dr. Kinley: But left their own habitation
Reader: He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness
Dr. Kinley: He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness, read.
Reader: Unto the judgement of the great day
Dr. Kinley: He has reserved the reservation, permanent reservation. No change. Way back there from the fall of Adam down in the.., that's Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:14. He's a devil. Jesus said he sinned right from the beginning, right from the fall, all the way down through all these here, no change: so reservations was made for him. Where's the reservation? In the lake. No changes. The Son of Perdition that Paul was talking about in second Thessalonians, said that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin, the Son of Perdition, be revealed. Then he went on to talk about it, that the Lord would consume him with the brightness of His coming. Why? Because he's not gonna change, not gonna change, you can't convert him. So Satan and God, neither one never changes. You get it now? Preaching till their heads fall off. No difference. God doesn't change His purpose. His word is gone out of His mouth and it shall not return unto Him void. Now let's show you. Now I want you to.., watch closely. The Law of the...
(THE TAPE WAS CHANGED AT THIS POINT AND A FEW STATEMENTS WERE LOST.)
... master mind, supersonic mind, and we could go on and name 172 different names that modern philosophical psychologists have come out with now. And they'll say go from the conscious mind, anything that you become conscious of. Let's say I want a new home, I haven't got the money to buy it with. And if I want it bad enough, then it changes from the conscious mind into the subconscious mind, it's a store house of thoughts; in other words, it's impressed upon the great subconscious mind and the subconscious mind will bring into actual manifestation or realization, and I will leave no stone unturned until I find.., or until it's brought into materialization. I know how psych.., modern psychology is taught, don't you think I don't. And God, that great Master Mind, Master Mind that made the universe. No such thing. It's within His power and it keeps struggling and struggling hard enough, leave no stone unturned. It you've got a job that's
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inadequate in its pay, so that you can go buy the type of home that you have in your mind, then you change the job. If you want to be a singer or some kind of a professional character and you see that you're not qualified, provisions can be made by going to an academy and taking sufficient training in order to master that particular vocation and then you can go on in life and be somebody as it is said. Psychology. All of it is brought about by the great subconscious mind, the desires to come conscious of and stored into the subconscious mind. And the great master mind having all, and possessing all will give it unto you. You understand. You go from one to the other.
Now let me tell you, that's not the way it is. But the Law of the Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus has made me free. Read. From the law of sin and death. Now that's what it must be. It must be the Law of the Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. Now just to stand here and say it or read it in the Bible, doesn't make me fully conscious of what I'm talking about. And I could get up and say to you by just repeating it right down and let you know that I can, put your finger on it and I'll quote it right down. There is therefore now no condemnation, right today, to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the Law of the Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death. I've been quoting those things and I would say that to you and call myself teaching you Science of Mind. I didn't learn how to quote the thing verbatim, verbatim I should say. I didn't do that. I've been called a walking Bible, but that don't help my case.
Now let me show you what Paul is looking at when he made the statement as you have heard me say all of this past week. Unless you go by a definite pattern, then you're subject to be deceived. Hence, I go back to my original topic and that is this: when you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the Holy Place, who so readeth let him understand. Now if you don't know what Jesus is talking about, you'll accept almost any reasonable philosophy and in that, these false prophets, you'll be deceived. When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the Holy Place. He said it himself, who so readeth, let him understand. Understand what? What the abomination of desolation is that's spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Understand what the Holy Place is, so you'll know where to stand. So those are the things that are most vitally important.
Now let me show you. Now you see this tabernacle, that tabernacle is symbolical to your body. Paul used this statement again, Know ye not that your body is the tabernacle or the temple of the Holy Spirit, of which spirit we are. Did he say that? Now if you don't think it's in there I'll read it. I certainly will read it. Alright again, another statement, If after the earthly house of this tabernacle be dissolved, we have another building, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Is that in there?
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Now, for me to know something about.., I'm talking about me, this man you see. That tabernacle, this body is the tabernacle in which the inner self lives. I can put my hand on my physical body, certainly isn't on my mind. There's a difference between matter and spirit. What is the difference? Matter is spirit materialized. Everything come from spirit, comes from God because God is spirit. Why matter? God manifesting Himself in the physical realm. Where is matter going to? Back to the source from whence it came. Where is God? Everywhere. What's the Source? God's the source. What's the substance? God is the substance. What is spirit? When you get down to digging down there like that, then you'd get somewhere. Spirit is the source and the substance from which every animate and inanimate thing in the universe originated. One man, I've got books in there, said it was ether. I wish all the ____, somebody had ether God. Then I would ask this, 'well, where did ether come from?' Just like Darwinism said that man.., evolution rises from one state to the other until he reached the plane of a perfect man, as he is now. I say where did the monkey come from? And the Egyptians here, they thought that the universe come from an egg. Somebody say, 'well, that sure is a simple and ignorant philosophy and doctrine.' When you put it against some of ours, it's no worse than some of ours. For the simple reason why, let me show you that it isn't, let me show you that it isn't. Now here is the egg, that they call... They said everything come from this egg, the universe. If you reason it out it's far better than a lot of ignorance we got today and yet everybody is branded as stupid.
Alright, God is the source and substance, the limits and the bounds. God is spirit, everything come from spirit. Now let's say this limit and the bound is the egg shell, of which the secretion that's in the egg, and a little chicken comes up from that egg. And then God took on incorporeal form, just comparing one thing with the other. God took on the incorporeal form. Go back into the masculine and feminine generative organs. And the secretion, that man is generated from, or human beings is generated from in the masculine and feminine generative organs, it's the substance. And then it takes on the form, shape and nine months it's born. What's the difference? Then here Christ took on, Jesus took on physical form and come down in the world. Now then this is God took on incorporeal form, and we'll just call this now, for the sake of comparison, the cloud. Moses went up in the cloud there, he was in eternity or symbolizing into this secretion and that secretion come into form, incorporeal first and then physical. Now what difference is it? Do you see through what I'm talking about? I just wanted to bring you down so you could see why we throw off to one side something that the person thought way back yonder years ago and then you jump right down in the same stupidity and colossal ignorance of today and we think we are aggressive.
Now let's get back into this subject. Now you watch, I don't wanna leave here. This substance is one. This incorporeal or spirit form is two, and this physical form is three: that's one, two, three. God a universal substance, one. The incorporeal that Moses, He had to take on that form so.., and anything you can't conceive in the mind you can't understand nothing about it, can you? So then He took on this incorporeal form and showed Himself to Moses in a vision, that's not physical, and then He came on down and manifested in the flesh. And Paul made this statement: without controversy, without any debate or any discussion, great is the
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Mystery of God. God was manifested in the flesh, seen of angels, believed on in the world and received up into glory.
Now I have to hurry. So I want you to watch quickly these comparisons and then you will see. Now all that you see up and down here on these walls, even down here with the man, Dr. Harris and all of us have been into it. Now God is a pattern Himself, an incorporeal or a spirit pattern. And just like you see this here, wisdom, knowledge and all of those were in that substance. All the attributes were there. Now listen, and look. So now God transformed Himself into this Tabernacle so that Moses could see and He told him to make one just like that. What's the reason? What's the purpose? That I may dwell among them, that was His purpose. I told you that God was spirit. He said make me a tabernacle that I may dwell among them. Now if Moses made a physical tabernacle so that an invisible God might dwell among the Children of Israel, three tribes on each side, and He told him, cautioned him, see to it that you make all things according to the pattern that was shown thee in the mount.., Hebrews 8:5, so you won't think I have to go back over into no book of Exodus. Now everything in the universe it makes no difference what it is, even the ultra microscopic particles of matter such as the atom. It is three-fold. It is neut.., it is a electron, proton, and the neutron. Man is pneuma, psyche and soma. He's soul body and spirit. For there's three that bare record in heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one. Ain't that in the book? Have I left it? I haven't left the book at all. So now if you look at this tabernacle it has a Court Around About, that's one part. It has a Holy Place and this is the interior, and it's divided by the veil, and then into the Most Holy Place. The Court Around About is one, the Holy Place is two and the Most Holy Place is three. Now Jesus said, when you therefore shall see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the Holy Place. Now this is the Holy Place. In the Holy Place was the golden lamp that gives light. It had seven different branches on it representing the seven dispensations and ages. And Jesus said, I am the light of the world, it was a figure of Him. There was the table there with shewbread on it that the high priest went in there every day and kept this lamp trimmed and burning so that the light would never.., never be no darkness in there and in Christ there is no darkness at all. So then, He said I am that bread which came down from heaven represented by those twelve loaves of bread that was on that table. High Priest ate them. And then the golden altar of incense, and in that golden altar of incense incense was burning at nine in the morning and three in the afternoon. The children of Israel, they prayed around the outside, while the incense was burning. They didn't.., personally and collectively they didn't have the Holy Spirit and the incense was a figure of the Holy Spirit. Just come right on off of these right on over. And Jesus said here (hear?) the things that I just told you. I am the light of the world. I'm the bread, and showed that bread here, not the Bible but the true bread that come down from heaven. He.., I believe I heard Dr, Anderson say there a while ago that Christ was our only intercessor, so that's why we put Him here down on His knees. We're just transcribing what is in the New Testament and everywhere else, as you call it, and just bringing these things right on over. Then He.., after He had did all, He ascended. This veil here divided the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place. After He had fulfilled His work, He entered on through the veil, that is to say through the flesh, and He entered on back on into heaven itself.
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Now I said.., take the ark of the covenant. The ten commandment law was laid in the ark of the covenant. This is what I'm trying to show you now. The law was laid in the ark of the covenant, that is that Law of the Spirit of Life. That ten commandment law governed all of the body of Israel, thou shalt not or thou shalt do. It's a law that governs. Law! Any man that despises Moses' law died without mercy. The Law of the Spirit: Messiah. Now go on up some where on top of a building and jump off. See what happens. It's a tragedy. What's the matter? You attempted to break the law. My mind might be distorted or deranged to such an extent that I don't have the right prospect on life. My mind I said. And then I go out there, but the law, it never fails. It's unchangeable! It's inviolable! It's immutable! That's the difference between the mind and the Law of the Spirit or the Law of God. It never changes! And anytime anybody from anywhere violates the Law of the Spirit, I mean to tell you, if you violate the law, just like he said to Adam back in the Garden of Eden, it's death. Now this is the pattern, Kinley did not put it in the book! That's what Moses done, he put the law in there, ten commandment law. He laid it in the ark of the covenant, which means this: that the Law of the Spirit of Life in your heart, in your mind, and in your body which is a tabernacle just like this tabernacle there, that God might dwell in you.
What I think! Thought in negation all of my life, necessitated a birth as Dr Anderson was trying to talk about. And you can't just go on and say because I picked up some habit or I had some misfortune or something or another I'm gonna take some training and overcome it. No, I am not! I'm gonna have to do this: if I'm regenerated, if I ever reach immortality, I'll certainly have to have the Law of the Spirit of Life in me to guide me, only way for me to know what it is all about. I must have that Law of the Spirit of Life. The mind is too limited, it's finite, it's carnal.
Now somebody said, 'well, wait a minute Doc.' Said, 'you overlooked that Paul said this: let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.' No I didn't overlook it at all. Now suppose I say that to you, what then was the mind that was in Him? Alright you reading from many different things that He did when He was in the world by the mind that was in Him, using mind and spirit synonymous now. Just saying for the sake of bringing out the thought that mind and spirit is one and the same, if you want to take it that way. Now Paul said let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.
Now as I read the Book over here in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I see that He did this, I see that He did that, and I see that He did the other. And I might say to you, for example, going by the Pattern. Here's the first Adam back in the Garden of Gethsemane. And He said think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets but I come to fulfill. That's what I come for. And verily, verily one jot or tittle of the word, it shall no pass.., or the law shall in no wise pass until it's all fulfilled. Is that what He said? Now if this mind is in you that was in Him, you tell me, if you're just gonna say that and go ahead on and read, you tell me, this great God of the stellar universe, how did it happen to be in the first place that Christ ate the passover and got up and washed the disciples feet and went on out into the Garden of Gethsemane which is right in the same place as the Garden of Eden. The children of Israel following this same pattern with blood, water, spirit. Blood, water, and the anointing oil of spirit. Blood, water, and anointed with the spirit. It's
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three that bear record, blood, water, and spirit, never digresses from that pattern. It must be that way all the way down through the dispensations and ages. That's why an atom is three-fold, every ultramicroscopic particle of matter.
(DR. KINLEY BEGINS PREACHING HARD HERE)
Now if the mind is in me that was in Christ Jesus, if you wanna take it that way. Now you tell me why that it was that God put the little brook Kidron there for Him to cross over? You tell me why. Just talking about something don't mean anything. You tell me why it was that the Children of Israel went out of the land of Egypt and went though the Red Sea? Tell me why it divided? Tell me why that they stayed in the wilderness for forty years. Tell me why the river Jordan divided and they went on into Palestine. Tell me why it was that God let Adam stay in the garden of Eden back there and never drove him out until the cool of the day. Tell me why? Cause He's fulfilling that which was back there. Now you just stand up and just say let this mind be in you, I don't know nothing about what you're talking about unless I understand the pattern and what it's all about. How am I going to understand that? It's because the Law of the Spirit in me is opening my eyes and making me see and understand why Christ did this and why he did the other in the same mind, the same consciousness of why He did this, why He did that, and why He did the other. Why did Jesus out in the Garden of Gethsemane sweat, and great drops of blood drop, dropped off of Him. Why? If you wanna have the same mind in you. Just talking about it won't do it. And the reason why it was is because God told Adam in the sweat of his face shall he eat bread till he returned unto the ground, for out of it was he taken and from dust thou are and to dust thou shalt return. And Jesus fulfilling that, so when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane there out there, great drops of sweat just like blood began to pour off of Him, He was the second Adam. Tell me why, if you wanna talk about let that mind be in you, was it your mind that told you why it was that He sweated so out there in the Garden of Eden was because.., in the Garden of Gethsemane, cause He was fulfilling that which was out there in the Garden of Eden? And God said further, said thorns and thistles, ____ ____ thorns and thistles shall the earth bring forth. And there Jesus is out there and there comes up the thorns and thistles, so it presses Him right on back, and He sweated clear on until He went on down to the ground. Because out of it was he taken and from dust he come and He's going back, fulfilling that which was back there. And when He raised from the dead, then He had instead of a crown of thorns, it was a crown of glory.
Now if you're talking about let that same mind be in you, then you tell me why He did this and why He did that and why He did the other, then you can talk to me about it.
Why was it when the great multitudes followed Him around up there and He preached and He healed many of them and then He took on off and went on up into the top of the mountain and He set up there in the mountain and He took His conversation and He said: you have heard of Moses of old time, thou shalt not do thus and so forth and so on, what you call the Beatitudes. why did He go up in the mountain? Well, the reason why He went up in the mountain was because God had spoke from Mount Sinai, this sermon won't due to be preached down
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here on the back side of the mountain, God's incarnated in this body, and so I have to go on up in the mountain to speak to you because God spoke to you from the mountain. What are you doing that for? I'm fulfilling the law and the prophets. Now you're talking about letting that same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus. Then if you understand what I'm talking about then you know all the cause and the reason why it is. But get up there and ____ ____ ____ ____ and let that mind be in you which in Christ Jesus. That ain't gonna get it. You got to know what it's all about and the only way for you to know what it's all about is you have to go on back there and get that pattern and get that purpose and get that plan and bring it on down through the dispensations and ages. And then that same mind, that same God that's in you will cause that same mind to be in you that was in Christ Jesus. You know why He did this, and you know why He did that and you know why He did the other. And then unless you can approach me like that then you can't just stop this fluctuating mind. And these nice things you tell me to do, you tell me to concentrate on this. Hope for this and hope for that and hope for the other and so forth and so on. And tell me to get down here and to pray to an unknown God I don't have no conception of. I don't know nothing about Him! I don't know whether I'm praying or just using words, just empty words. I don't know nothing about Him because He's an unknown God. I don't know whether He heard my prayer or not. And then when I get through with it, I've done failed in something else. What's the matter? Say, 'well, God hears prayers and all them different kinds of things, well by and by after a while then He'll bring it to pass and all them different kind... That ain't what the trouble is. Look here. When you were down there, you didn't know what it was all about cause the Holy Spirit hadn't revealed it to you and what you were doing was praying, bless God's everlasting Name for something out of harmony with His purpose. And anytime the Holy Spirit pray within you, cause I don't know how to pray as I ought but the Holy Spirit in me makes intercession for me with groanings that can't be uttered. And so if it's the Holy Spirit praying then I'm gonna ask God because the Holy Spirit don't ask God for anything contrary to His purpose and to His pattern. And so if it's the Holy Spirit praying you know how to live, then sometimes it doesn't write the things that the Holy Spirit is teaching me to pray for.
Now there's a few other thoughts I wanna show you about how that thing failed. Now here is the apostle in the first chapter of Acts of Apostles. There they knew that Judas had failed by transgression. Here's a carnal mind. Holy Spirit hasn't been poured out yet and they decided to hold one of them ecumenical councils. And there they was out there praying that the Holy Ghost or God might show who would take Judas' place who had fell by transgression. And they put it upon Matthias. You see it in the first chapter of Acts of Apostles. They wasn't praying by the Holy Ghost. What's the matter? They didn't know nothing about who was to take Judas' place. And so they put another man, two other men up there and they went to pulling lots, or casting lots to see which one of them it was that was gonna take the place and that lot fell on Matthias, that Holy Spirit hadn't been poured out yet so they chose Matthias, just like Israel chose Saul. That wasn't God's choice. But nevertheless, they went on down, we're talking about the purpose and plan of God now. Here's a man, 'Bless God's everlasting Life,' that with the apostles, all of them walked around over the Judean hills and witnessed everything He did, Judas included. And when Judas come out, 'Bless God's
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everlasting Life,' talking about the promise that He made to Abraham back there, and by faith. So after Judas has gone on out, then here come the one that done went out here and killed somebody, the Apostle Paul. He was even putting men and women to death for serving the living God. And if they had put him up there with Barnabas and Matthias and said now which one of these would you choose, they would be sure not to choose the Apostle Paul. Why? Because he was a persecutor, he was a blasphemer, and he was a murderer. But wait, 'Bless God's everlasting name,' after Jesus went on back to heaven, bless God, and sit down on the throne, waited seven years before the Gentiles was grafted in and about 3 years after He ascended, here goes the Apostle Paul on his way down to Damascus, his name was Saul at that time. And now God's gonna fill this place just like Judas. Because in and around the throne there was twelve thrones and there was twelve apostles that sat upon the thrones. And so now I'm gonna put the right man in. It ain't gonna be done by no voting and casting lots, or nothing of the kind. I put him in there because Saul never seen, he's gonna represent them that's born of the promise, them that don't see and them that didn't follow Him around the Judean hills. I have the place I've reserved for him, and I can't make the choice before I ascend because God has given Me these twelve here that I had before I come in the world so I got to go on back out of the world before a decision can be made on, cause He never forgot to choose somebody to fulfill his place. And so, 'bless God's everlasting Life,' when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them on the day of Pentecost and that great persecution come up, they was all scattered abroad except the apostles. And then, 'Bless the Lord,' here was this man who was to be the 12th apostle out there putting them to death and persecuting them. In fact he was the one that caused the persecution. And now here he goes on down to Damascus to do some of his persecuting. And God almighty spoke to him the way going down to Damascus and said Saul! Saul! why persecutest thou me? He said what are you doing that for? He said Lord, what will you have me to do? He said I'll have you to take, I'm just adding these words, I'll have you to take the place of Judas who fell by transgression. I wish you could understand all those different kinds of things, then, then you can talk about let that mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. Did you see that far? It's the Law of the Spirit of Life.
Now that law... Your body is the temple. Now here, take this right off of here. This is Mercy Seat that the angels, the cherubims of glory overshadowing the Mercy Seat and the law laid right in there. Jesus said lay up for yourself treasures in heaven. And so now the Law under the New Testament or ____ but the Law of the Spirit is written right in your heart and mind, it signified that the Law of the Spirit was written right in your heart and right in your mind. Paul said so in the third chapter of Second Corinthians. So it's the Law of the Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus, that's made me free from the law of sacrifices and ceremonies. And as you walk around with that Law of the Spirit or the Law of God, cause God is spirit, in your heart and in your mind why then you don't do the thing that's wrong. Why? Because there's control, you're governed by the Law of the Spirit of Life. You can go out here in some business transaction, have some kind of failure, more than likely you will have a whole lot of them because it wasn't suppose to be ____, because the Law of the Spirit is educating you.
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Now there's one more thing I want to discuss with you and then we will be done and that's the 15th chapter of First Corinthians and verse forty-five and I want you to see whether this is the Law or the Science of Mind or whether it is ____ we're talking about, Christ Jesus. Now read for me please.
Reader: What verse?
Dr. Kinley: 45.
Reader: And so it is written
Dr. Kinley: And so it is written
Reader: The first man Adam was made a living soul
Dr. Kinley: The first man Adam was made a living soul
Reader: And the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Dr. Kinley: And the last Adam was made a quickening mind.
Reader: Quickening spirit.
Dr. Kinley: I just want you to see. I want you to see and learn how to read this thing perfect. He was made a quickening spirit. Where the spirit of the Lord is. Paul said now the Lord is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. Now, Paul said this, with his mind he served the Lord because greater than your mind is the spirit and we live under the influence of the spirit. And now as I have showed you all along, every time I went through this I went through it with accuracy and infallibility. Don't make no mistakes. Mind.
Now you have come all the way through Pentecost down to this present ____ ____ ____ about the Science of Mind but they all claim to be preaching and teaching the same doctrine. And Jesus said just before he ascended, said lo I am with you alway even until the end of the world. And He said this. Said, the glorious Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness, and we got that twisted too, and then shall the end come. When He said in all the world it means all through the ages. This is the last age and this Gospel of the kingdom has been preached in all the ages. All the way down somebody has preached it long before ever anybody ever said anything about it. And standing in this Holy Place, I should say the only thing that's going to keep you standing in this Holy Place is that Law of the Spirit. It is inviolable it is immutable, it is unerring. It causes little birds to fly. Would you say that it was mind? No. That's an animated object, isn't it? Now look here, listen. The sun, moon, and stars, as I told you about, they all function with unerring accuracy. The sun don't bump into the moon and change the day to night. Would you say it was mind? Would you say that the moon, mind of the moon and the sun, or the mind of the stars. Would you say that? No. It never fails, it never fails. God's spirit embraces and moves everything by His spirit, every animate and inanimate object in this universe, so that the inanimate object
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is controlled by universal spirit law, they don't have no mind as we understand mind to be.
The little birds, you see them can fly in formation and here we are a man and we have to have some kind of a guide, some kind of contact, communication when flying in an airplane, or navigating somewhere around. But here's the little birds that God put that Law in them that governs and controls their origin and destiny. They never fail. You see them take off, they don't know nothing about whether it's January, February or no... When the season come around for them to go, and you see them flying in formation. What is this that's guiding them? Mind? No. Influence? No. It's the Law of the Spirit that God has put in them, its destination is a foregone conclusion and they never fly in the wrong direction and get lost way out yonder over the Pacific ocean or out there somewhere in the sandy, sun-baked land of the Sahara Desert or somewhere up yonder around the icy waste land of Labrador. Under that Law, they go right to the destination all the time, they never get lost. It's because with God's Law, that Law that is infallible, or immutable law, it governs them. And it's the same way in the planets as it is in the animated life that don't have a mind. They don't bump into one another and just distort and disturb everything because that Law is immutable, it's infallible.
Job said, the law, talking about the Lord, God said to the Sea, or when he appointed to the sea it's decreed, which is the Law, said, come this far, don't go no further. The sea hasn't got no mind. And Job got up there and he got to talking a whole lot of fool talk and all that, and God spoke to him out of the whirlwind and said, Where were you when I laid the foundation of the world? Job gird up the loins of your mind now and declare unto me if you have understanding. Where were you when I made the sea, or the bars and doors for the sea? Where was you when I made a swaddling band for the clouds. Tell me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth class? Job said, once have I spoken, yea twice I'll put my hand over my mouth talking like a fool, I'm gonna shut up. And that Law governs and controls everything.
It's the Law of the Spirit of Life which was in Christ Jesus. And to prove to you that it was in there, when the winds and the waves was blowing out there and the rest of them laying up there, they were laying up there asleep, in the ship sleeping. They were out there cussing, and cussing and trying, 'do you hear, and don't you see and don't you care if we perish?' He just woke up and said, 'Peace be still.' That's the Law of the Spirit that brought everything into existence, you can't grab it in your hands or anything like that and everything just calm right down. They said, 'well, what kind of man is this?' That's the man with the Law of the Spirit of Life in His heart. Thank you Dr. Gross.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS)
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2) 1959: SPIRIT IN YOU; CHRISTENDOOM REUNITING
(also called: THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL)
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Los Angeles, California
audio cassette received from Lamar Greer (#11)
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 59 SC
transcribed by Susan LaFergola
first proofreading: Richard Share II
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only it more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, uh, see, you understand, do you understand.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable.
5. words in CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber.
Previous Speakers: Dr. Carl F. Gross and Dr. Robert Harris.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you Dr. Harris, Dr. Gross. I want to say that I really enjoyed that. The lecture by Dr. Harris and also by Dr. Gross. Now the things that they said were very deep, and it makes me sometimes think like this, it isn't no wonder that so many come through the door. It's because of the fact that they haven't been taught any of the things that we talk about much. And consequently, you're out into the more depths of the thing in the School than you are in churches where they go. They don't go into none of the details that which we go into. And so consequently the things that are said here, sitting on these hard chairs and all, you get restless because as a rule you don't, as a rule people don't know anything about what we are talking about. All that Dr. Gross said and all that Dr. Harris said was speaking in tongues. (DIFFICULT TO HEAR DUE TO TRUCK TRAFFIC IN THE BACKGROUND) ____ ____ He talked about a divine, was talking about ____ ____. Then the subject of the salvation of Israel neither one of them never said nothing about Jeremiah and yet they were on the subject. Now I'm just talking about how the other fella would look at it. He might think that none of that had nothing to do with the subject.
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As I remember years ago, possibilities are Dr. Gross was present at that meeting on Dived Avenue. They had a church there. And, oh it was some three or four years after we had started in the School. This was call the Triumph Church of the New Age. And we had a Minister there from the Church of God and then the Triumph Church of the New Age, Fred Wheeler was the Pastor at that time, Reverend Fred Wheeler. And so the subject came up about a question they were asking and I had this chart along with me. And so the man, the preacher from over at the Church of God asked me a question. And I went back to Adam to explain his question and as I was explaining he throwed up his hand and said, 'stay on the subject.' And a lady that was sitting there that was with the other church, she looked around there and she said, 'well that's what he's talking about.' So I said that to say this, that in the group of people that haven't had any more training in the reality of God, why all of us talk off of the subject, we're never on it, because the carnal mind and that doesn't work together.
Now I'm going to show you a few things here. I jotted this down on a piece of paper. My daughter here went down to the library, when we were compiling some books and all, information from books from the Roman Catholic Church. Brother Yates and his wife bought some books and we were making a research into Catholicism. Something they knew something about. We can figure all around here but they wouldn't know anything at all about it. So now, since Pope John is making a, an effort to do what you'd call reunite Christendoom and to get the folks back in the Church. So that has to do with our subject, the Salvation of Israel. Now if you're real wise and real smart, truthfully wise and smart, you'll keep your eye on that thing for this reason why. Although you have since giving trouble here about man, as Dr. Gross said, about his being his own free moral agent and do everything according to his own will. And you've seen that brought out. But now if you look at Pharaoh, that's over in the Book, in the scriptures, Pharaoh.., and God hardened his heart. That Son of Perdition all the way through is hard, is hardened. And He didn't only hardened Pharaoh's heart, I'm ready to do that now, but he also hardened the Egyptians heart too, which we would say this way to express in more modern language you say.., we would say that the folks was hard headed. That's the way we put it. Now that is what is happening all over the world. The people are either listening to the inner voice of God in their hearts as first John, everybody has it, in as much as you have a negative, you have a positive in everybody that small voice that sometimes when you would do something that you shouldn't do, 'why, don't do that.' 'Oh go ahead on and do it.' And so there you are. So if you don't listen to that God part of you, why then learn what it is and listen to that. Why then you're pretty much sunk. Do you know what I'm talking about?
So now in this piece of paper I've got a few things down. I had it in that book quite some time. I want to show you now so that you could see. Now we're talking, as Dr. Harris talked about here about these pomegranates and so forth and so on. They were in the interior of that Temple. Now everybody knows a little something about Solomon's Temple whether or not they are Jews, Catholics or Protestants. I'm speaking collectively of course. They know a little
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something about it. And it shows you unless you have some eyes, eyes of your understanding, I don't mean the physical eyes in your head; then you would discern a lotta things that goes on and show you just how.., about the individual's will. And I've tried to show you from time to time that all things work according to the purpose of God. I've tried to show you that.
Now one day when the apostles was up in the building, up in the Temple, which the Temple was torn down after it stood there, 33 years. Shishak went up from Egypt. You think.., you might think because the Children of Israel had escaped here and went out into the Wilderness here and they were under the new government, that is the ten commandments.
And then they passed on through the River Jordan and went into Canaan's Land and built Solomon's Temple up there. Now Saul reigned first 40 years. David reigned 40 years. That's 80 years. And then Solomon during his reign, the first part of his reign he built that Temple and it stood there 33 years.
Shortly after Solomon died, then Shishak went up from Egypt and tore that Temple down, plundered it clear to the ground. Did you know that? Yep, that's what happened. So they got involved, the Egyptians even after they had dedicated the Temple, tore it down. Then if.., the Temple was rebuilded again. Then it was razed again. And the last time which was the third time, it was 46 years, it started to build which is called Herod's Temple. And the other one was Zerubbabel's. We call it Zerubbabel because they were instrumental in seeing that the Temple was put back again.
But the last time it started 16 ½ years before the birth of Christ. And when he got down to his, where He entered into His ministry why then it had been 46 years in the building. And then 3 years in the building, 46 and 3 is 49. So then that was the last week of Daniel's prophesy that the Christ dying and raising from the dead again was the building of that Temple again. Well now the boys one day why before He died they were up there in the Temple. Peter and the disciples and so as they came outside the Temple and they looked at it decorated with all of those precious stone. Course everything that was in the original Temple that Solomon built was not in the last Temple that Herod built. The Ark of the Covenant was not there. Not there. And they hadn't finished building it either for that matter, hadn't completed it; in fact of the matter they never did complete it. But what they did have of it up there was torn down.
Now when the boys was out looking at it and they said it certainly is a beautiful place and all like that. And they was admiring the Temple. And Jesus said to 'em, there shall not be one stone left up on top of another that shall not be thrown down. And then that was a prediction that that Temple would come down. Then on in Catholicism they claim Jesus was talking to Peter in the 16th chapter of Matthew, upon this rock. And He said, 'who do men say that I am?' ____ ____ 'Who do they say that I am.' And they answered and said that some say you're Jeremiah and some of the other prophets. And so He said, 'but whom do you say I am?' Peter answered up and said, 'I say that thou art the
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Christ the Son of the living God.' They was in Philippi of Caesarea at that time. And so He said, 'flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven. And upon this rock I will build My church and the very gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' All, everybody is familiar pretty much with those words among the Christians. And of course the Roman Catholics they say that Peter was that rock upon which Christ built His church. You know that don't you? And that's why they have Peter in the capacity in which they have him.
Now let me show you something. Up here in Mount Moriah where Abraham offered up Isaac right in that spot. David put a rock there, made an altar there. And marked it and he said that that was the place where the House of the Lord, the Lord had showed him where to build that house. And then as you looked into that, and go to dig into it, you want to you can.., they got some jet bombers now that can get you over there in a hurry. You can go over there and look. And you will find that where that Temple stood there is a great big rock there. Rock formation that that Temple rested upon, was a figure of that Rock that Christ was talking about in Caesarea. And that... Now you wouldn't catch that one at all, just miss it in it's entirety.
Now there's something else I wanna tell you about that Temple, while I'm into it. And that is this: after that they had builded it, it was torn down for the third time when Solomon dedicated it, don't forget that I told you that that he said, 'the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him.' Now this first, second and third heaven. God is everywhere. The heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. And then the prophets in those temples coming down and ____ ____ ____ ____.
In the last days of His ministry, Christ went into the Temple and spoke to the carnal minded Pharisees and the Scribes up there in the Temple, the Levitical Priesthood knowing that they were dead from the fall of Adam. And time had come for Him to be crucified. Don't nobody like to be setting up and smart too. Just like they don't want me to get up now and talk about the ministers or the preachers and how dumb and ignorant we are. That we don't know what we're talking about. They don't like for me to talk like that. Then if I try to tell you some of the spiritual things then they'll say, 'Well, who does he think he is.' 'What does he think has happened to all those people all down through the ages here.' 'He must think he's smart and there ain't nobody got no sense but him.' Now that's the same thing that Christ did when He went on up there in the Temple, the last time. Now watch Him get in trouble. When time come, all the rest of the time that He was up there, He said, 'Now I didn't come to call the righteous to repent, but I come to seek and to save that which is lost,' knowing that everything was lost back there in Adam. In Adam, as Paul put it, all died. Even in Christ shall all be made alive. And He got along, until it come time for Him to be crucified. Then when it come time for Him to be crucified He went back up there in that Temple and He told the Sanhedrin Council, He said, 'you hypocrites, you serpents, you generation of vipers.' Looking back in the garden now. 'You generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?' Those are His words. 'You hypocrites.' Ain't that what He said? Said,
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'you won't go in yourselves and you won't let them that's entering in go. And you burdened them with heavy burdens. And you wouldn't lift one of it with your little finger.' They had all kinds of traditions, things they saddled 'em with. They had the Talmud. Do you know what the Talmud is? You know what the Mishnah is? There lies the ideas and interpretations, just like your commentators, of the law and so forth and so on. And that was what they went by. That was their commentator or their instruction in the scriptures. And He said those things to 'em. Well now He's fixing to get in trouble, it's time for Him to die. And out there talking before them like that, it wasn't long before they had Him hanging right out there on the tree. He knew that's what it was going to do. But He was telling the truth cause they was all dead from the fall of Adam. But they just didn't like the idea of being told about it. That's the way a carnal mind is. Don't want you telling nothing about it. And when He spoke His last sermon up there in the Temple He went out and this is what He said, 'behold your house.' All before that He called it, 'don't you make My Father's house a den of thieves,' when they was up there selling oxen and turtle doves and sacrificial beasts for offerings and overturned the tables of the money changers with the cords and drove 'em out of there, out there in the Court of the Gentiles, it was the outside court. And said to 'em, 'Now don't make My Father's house a den of thieves.' The money changers. Which we are trying to learn now is the science of the mind, ____ exactly is that. Be successful and profiteering. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) But never the less that's what he said to 'em. 'Behold your house is left unto you desolate.' Now they didn't get that Temple finished. And as the prophet spoke of it, knowing through the vision and revelation that they would not. He said, 'Where is the house that ye builded unto me?' Solomon, even when he dedicated, called himself dedicating the Temple out there. Now here comes the prophet saying, 'where is the house that ye build unto me.' So it continues to come down, ____ repetitious, because of the fact there hadn't been a house, a physical house in its reality that any man on earth has ever built, anytime. They're all figures and not the real thing. Just like when He made the promise to Abraham that in his seed, which is Christ, He would bless all the families of the earth. Now our mind is so carnal until we couldn't see that promise back there, and just like we can't see the real house that Dr. Gross is talking about. We're builded up a spiritual house.
Now, knowing those things and understanding those things, why then Jesus, when the boys were standing out there adoring the Temple so much with a carnal mind and thinking of the restoration of or the restoring of that to the place where it flourished in the days of Solomon and in the days of David. He said to them. He said 'now, there shall not be one stone left upon top of another that shall not be thrown down.' Now you watch, cause that thing goes clear on back to the greater and more perfect Tabernacle and Satan operating in it, which is the universe. Now watch, you look. Now here you know that in AD 70 Pagan Rome, let's call it Pagan, Pagan Rome under Titus rome de masse went up, come up to Jerusalem with an army in AD 70 and tore that Temple down. Razed it completely to the ground and tore it all to pieces: fulfilling the prediction of Christ. It had to come down because it, in His resurrection, is a
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spiritual body. The physical had to come down. You see that now?
And now Dr. Harris told you the other night about the way that Temple was constructed. We took this off now and Dr. Gross has got this on here, it's wet. We have yet to put some kind of a wall around it. But this crown on that if you notice it looks just like a chair there. Now God raised up Solomon to sit, to build that Temple, and Christ raised up to sit upon the thrown (throne?) of his father, David. And this kinda constructed this, Jachin and Boaz here, it's constructed like a chair, the Temple and the oracle and all, just like the back of the chair here, he would.., the King would sit on that overlaid with gold would form that crown. And to go in the door there in the oracle and so forth and above it, why then you would have the Holy Place and the Most Holy and around the walls. And the inside of the Most Holy Place was these pomegranates and so forth and so on, and those angelic figures. I can't draw them, I can just tell you about them. You look up here and you can see one better than a figure of it than I can., I'm able to draw it. You can see it's a little bit better to draw him out. It's all around the walls. Those angelic figures being all around the walls and those pomegranates that Dr. Harris told you about, so forth and so on.
Well you say, what's that got with the.., this over here. Well Pagan Rome tore this Temple down and then Papal Rome constructed it in the Vatican, not in Jerusalem now, but over here in Rome; in other words it was torn down over here in Jerusalem and moved over here in the Vatican. You see that now? Moved over there. Tore it down one way. Now, John on the Isle of Patmos out here, when he is looking in his vision, he said he saw no Temple. That's because the Lord God and the Lamb was the Temple. So then him tearing it down here in Jerusalem, Paganism tearing it down in Jerusalem and moving it over in Rome. They just tore down the natural, the physical, in Jerusalem, which was allegorical to Jerusalem above, and moved it over here in Rome. Pagan Rome tore it down, I mean Paganism tore it down and moved it over here. Now in our book we'll show you where this Paganism, this Beast rising up out of the sea and Satan transfiguring over in the red dragon and the leopard beast, we'll show you how that's done in the 666, and on both of 'em, which has to come all the way down through the Garden of Eden. From the Garden of Eden on down. Well now, you'd think, you think too much about that. Oh yes, I'm going back to the basics. That's what I'm on my way to now. Yes indeed, I'm almost.., I'm on my way.
Now, let me see if I can show you, now look there, if I can bring out some of it. All these things. If we had heard some of this when we was in church, why we would be that much further progress. Now, in a book, so you that can see, I have to put my glasses on, got a script with me this time. In this book, it's entitled The Vatican, it's by Ann Cunningham with photographs by David Seymour. It says in that book, I got everything but the page number on here, and I'm gonna have to get the book to get the page number out of it. Said the present church, meaning Saint Peter's, built in 120 years between 1506 when the architect B R A M A N T E, I just wanted you to know who it was, turned in his complete plan and blue prints and 1626 when it was finally dedicated by
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Earnest Nahee, that's four word, is the largest Christian church in the world. Now not the first one have ever given any thought at all. Now that Temple, Solomon's Temple as we call it, it was built up there in Jesus's time said, 'destroy this Temple and I'll build it again in three days.' And His body, as you have heard me say, Him being the seed of Abraham, His body God dwelt within Him. So then Daniel prophesying said how long would it be before the sanctuary be cleansed? And He said unto 2,300 days. And if you don't think that's right I'll read it in Daniel over there. Now you watch. Now what we're talking about here deals with uncircumcision and circumcision. It deals with the Jew and it deals with the Gentile. You see that now? It deals with this carnal minded Papacy; or in other words, it deals with Paganism and Satan transformed into an angel of light. The same old Devil that was back there in the Garden of Eden. The same one incarnated in a man trying to take the place of God and exalting himself on up. And fooling everybody but the elect of God. Now you watch the figure. Now I read to you off of here. Now it says here that.., I'll read it again: the present church, it doesn't say it, we have to throw that in, Saint Peter's there. And I'll be back into these pomegranates, you can be sure about that, they were on them walls around here, cause there's something that fits right into that and then we'll go back into the creation and show you that that and all and how even the hairs on your face. Wanna put it on the board so you can look at it. Now it begun to be built in 1506. This is AD. And it was finished in 1626. 1626. I got to up on here another 6. 1626. 1626 AD it was finished. Now that, that is their own figures for it. Now let me show you. Now if you take 1626 and then you take the 1506 and subtract one from the other, what do you have?
Student Body: 120
Dr. Kinley: Huh?
Student Body: 120
Dr. Kinley: You have 120. Is that right? That's 120 years. That's what it says right in your own paper. I'll read it. And I mean this is copied out of this book. The present church built in 120 years between 1506 when the architect Bramante turned in his completed plans and blue prints and in 1626 when it was finally dedicated by Urban the 8th is the largest Christian church in the world. And I just forgot to get the page number off of which it was on there. Now that's 120 years. Now they were 120 years in building Vatican, just like Noah was 120 years building Noah's ark to save them people over there they were building 120 years building this to lose 'em. Do you see that now? They're their own figures for it. I didn't have nothing to do with it. You can go get the book. It came out of the Los Angeles public library. Now do you see that? Now what's happened, Noah built that ark according to the divine specifications in the end of the Anti-diluvian (ante-diluvian?) Age to bring the people from there over into the Post-diluvian Age. That's under the law. I'll show you what I mean. Here's the, here it is. Here's the ante-diluvian (ante-diluvian?). 1656. Noah's 120 years building the ark there and this is the flood here, and then this is the Post d...
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over here. Now Noah built the ark to bring 'em over. Now here comes Christ and He's under this one here to bring the people over here. And so that tore down the Temple; that means, that is to say the Temple of His body. Well Titus went over there and tore the Temple down afterwards and moved it over and there were 120 years in the end of this age building up something to destroy the lives of the people forever. Do you see through that now? Now there isn't anybody gonna understand and see them things, but the seed of Abraham according to the promise.
Now, let's show you another one. Now you see that don't you? Now you remember I mentioned here about the 2300 days and the sanctuary would be cleansed. You remember that? Alright, now let's see how we come out here with this one. See this 1626? Don't forget it. Let us get over here and show 'em after a while. Here, this is 1959. We'll just take the figures from here. 1959. Is that right?
Dr. Carl Gross: Yea.
Dr. Kinley: Now then if you take 33 off of it, then you have 1926. You can figure all you want to. Now this is your free will too. Now if you take the 1926, now this 1926 or if you wanna make it 33 ½ then you do this. You still have the same thing. If you wanna make this 1960, the reason why is because 40 more years will make it up to 2000. Then 33 ½ gives you 34 and we still have 1926. Why use the 34? Because the New Covenant is of not force until after, or no covenant is not of force until after men are dead. A testament is of force after men are dead. Now you see that? So then it was after the crucifixion of Christ that the covenant become of affect on the Day of Pentecost. See it right there? Do you see that now? Now if you take your 1926, 1926 I just wanna show you so you can understand what I'm talking about. 1926. Now if you take the 1626 and then you have 300. Now that 300 right around here, cut it off right there; which means that Christ was crucified on Friday, and laid in Joseph's new tomb and the 300th part of that next day He rose from the dead, according to Daniel's prophesy. You follow me now? So then it was 300 years from the time, from here, 300 years from here to there. They dedicated the thing. But this 300. Now it took 7. Let me put the 300 over here, you know what it is now. So now it took 700 more. Here, or 700 more here to make 3000 years or 3 whole days counting one day with the Lord as a thousand years. But this is going down. Christ is coming up and this one's going down. You need to make a thousand. So the 700 goes the other way. Do you see through it? One building one thing.
Now it's pretty terrible, it's a pretty bad thing when you stop to think, now that God give instructions, specification and told Noah how to build that ark, lower deck, upper deck, and so forth and so on, to save the people in, and here the Devil is over up in Jerusalem, same Devil, Jesus knew it had to happen, tore the Temple down and moved it over to Rome. Set it back up to lose the people in. Jerusalem above is the eternal city not Rome beneath. And so they call Rome beneath the eternal city. Now that's the Devil moving the figurative body
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of Christ. Moving him around any kinda way he wants to. Move throne, Temple, and all. Get it? Set it down in one place. Now if he wasn't smart you couldn't see that. Now he moved it off a rock here and it's in the mountain here. Now if you go and look and see where they put the Vatican at, you'll find it down on the flat surface of the ground, in the ____ ____ here. Get it? And I could go and look at it, just take the pictures and all, and look at it. And they tried their best to make it as near as they possibly could, a picture of Vatican like the Temple.
Now Dr. Harris told you about the interior. Now I want to tell you about the interior of the Vatican. I showed you the picture now. I wanna tell you the interior of the Temple, how it was.., with pomegranates and angelic figures inside of Solomon's Temple. Now in the inside of the Vatican. Now you know anything about what's in there? Michael, Michael Angelo (Michaelangelo?) painted in there, all around the walls of the Sistine Chapel, around the walls God in pictures creating the physical heavens and earth. And everybody talks about how beautiful and all Michael Angelo's paintings were. Now the Temple and all is physical, and them painting the physical creation inside the Vatican, moving it from Jerusalem down in Rome and painting the interior of that showed that they was in the old creation and not in the new creation or not in the real seed of Abraham. That's why if any man worships the beast or the carnality of this thing, why then he shall receive in his forehead and in his hand the mark of the beast and he shall drink of the wine of the wrath poured out of the cup, God's indignation, tormented in fire day and night. I wanna emphasize that day and night, for this reason why, because on the other side of the vail John said there was no night there. Now if there's no night there on the other side of the vail, watch this point. The day and nights going on now, which means right now, day and night, they don't have no peace. And day and night. Rome trying to accumulate enough credits by repetition of the.., and worship of the Virgin Mary during their lifetime to get them out of Purgatory. So they don't have no rest day nor night. And they're fallen in the presence of God and of His holy angels, and you are the seed of Abraham or that angelic body incarnated in these physical bodies. You don't.., as long as you're in the material, as long as you're in the natural, everybody, it makes no difference who they are, they're tormented. And everything that they talk about can, can I say this one real easy, both Protestants and Catholics, because of the fact that Protestantism come right out of Catholicism or in other words, Catholicism is the Mother of Harlots, although that Protestantism. That's why Christ, the 17th chapter of Revelation, 'Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and receive of her plagues.' Babylon represents as the tower was back there the confusion. And in the confusion of, between Protestantism, Catholicism and other heathen religions, God is saying to you, the true people of God, 'Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and receive of her plagues.'
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SIDE 2:
That's the reason why so many of the different churches, as you hear them talk from time to time, they jump up and they say this, just like we.., here not long ago down on Zowheller Street, they said that's where the Holy Ghost fell 49 years ago, talking about the Pentecostal Faith, that you hear Dr. Persons and them talk so much about. And then it had a flat tire, and now they're trying to get it back together in Angela's Temple and so forth and so on. Now look, anything can fall out and have a flat tire like that. It doesn't make any difference. I'm not interested in none of it. No parts of none of it, none of them religions. And that's not what I'm trying to teach you; in other words, I'm trying to teach you to come out of all of that confusion and that you be not partakers, because confusion it means just this: the Baptists, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Camelites (Carmelites?), the Catholics, and the Dunkards and the so forth and so on, just nothing but confusion, just like it was back there at the Tower of Babel.
Now, different ones come here to talk here. They say to me, you note this, they want to talk about something about the Baptists or something about the Methodists or something about the Penta... I don't care about none of it. Ain't interested in it. I don't care what they said. And for that reason why they think that, well as a person said to me, said, 'Well, you have those people indoctrinated.' That's why they don't wanna stay around, cause 'you have 'em indoctrinated,' that is to say, 'We can't get up there and preach to 'em.' Why? 'Because they don't believe nobody but you, and they're not going to listen to us. There isn't anything we can teach 'em because you inoculated them, and indoctrinated them with your philosophical concepts.' Now that's the way they look at it. 'But I remember,' so they'll say, 'when the spirit of God was in such in such a thing, way back yonder,' until so and so went out yonder and done something that they shouldn't do, like Amy McPherson, and the bottom fell out of it. Well now, the bottom ain't, hasn't fell out of this thing that I'm talking about, it's from Pentecost on down. And if every last one, no body, not person the first from nowhere comes into this school and understands what I'm talking about and leaves. Can't go. Why can't you go? There ain't nowhere to go. Ain't that right? And I'm not afraid of it either. I'm not trying to circumscribe like the Catholics do. Tell you not to go here and not to go there, like the Baptists, the Methodists, the Presbyter... Tell you, 'don't go nowhere else.' This is your church, your... I ain't talking about it. Ain't interested it in. Go where you want to. Come back when you get ready. It's all right with me. You better go somewhere. I'll tell you right now, if you ain't pure in heart and you ain't one of them thieves and you can't stay here, you have to go somewhere else. Can't stay here, that's all there is to it. If you're pure in heart and you're really looking for the truth, irrespective and regardless of men's theological opinions and ideas and all, you stay. Never had one. And don't ever expect to have one. Yeah, we've had some come and go, but there's.., come and go go. But if they ever get them scales knocked off, there won't be no going cause there ain't nowhere to go. I've even been out and wanted to visit other places, and I always take 'em along with me. Been here, some
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since, since we been here in California, and way back yonder years ago I had started with, 'Let's go.' And he's saying, 'I don't wanna be bothered, you can go if you want to, I ain't going to be going.' They wouldn't even go with me. That's right. The same thing is now. Said, 'Well, I need my rest.' Can't even go. 'Well, how do you ever expect to get any association,' I said to them. 'Well, if that's the way you have to get it.' 'Don't you know you've got to get somebody over here.' 'Well, if they want to know the truth then let them come over here like I did, there ain't nothing I can do.' ____ care about that at all. Now that's the difference. Now I have tried to show you these correlations through here.
Now, let's go back. And the reason why I brought all of this up here, the reason why I brought all of this up here was to show you that Noah's Ark, 120 years in the building, move on down to the prophecy there and showed you the Christ. And to take Israel and bring her out of Egypt, 2 days journey out to the Red Sea, and then that third day and that cloud, and she escaped in through that Red Sea, a 300th part of it. Show you the body of Christ. And I showed you that 300th over there, the 2 days and the 300th. You notice that? And I went on back there to show you that 300th and how it correlated with what the Devil was doing there.
Now, what I'm aiming at is this, is to show you that the true people of God, them that do want to be saved, are not fooling around with nobody's physical church on earth, because of it's declaration, I mean decorations and glory and all them different kinda things. And Dr. Gross knows I had a lotta trouble. And one of the reason why I haven't said too awful much about this chart being painted over, and I sit right out there on the floor today and looked at it, and I said, 'well, I hope I don't have the trouble with it that I had before.' Because when we painted it over and it was in it's glory and beauty, people started standing around looking at it, saying, 'oh, that picture up there that sure is great, now this is pretty over here, oh my, ain't this beautiful.' That ain't what I'm after. I couldn't tell you nothing for 'em looking at the pictures. So when we were made the chart I said, 'I don't care too much about the art. I don't care.' And if you notice the painting, they ain't got no eyes and a whole lotta things. Don't want it to be to pretty, that's not what I'm asking. And so this man that made this thing, he was pretty good in art. And I waited the longest time, they had to get used to that thing before I could tell 'em anything much about it, the correlations and so forth and so on.
Now, to go back there to that Ark. 427 years after God, after God had created the heaven and the earth. 1656. You keep your eyes on these 6, 6's and take 30 years from that, and you got 16, see that's 26. See it up here? All them figures mean something. You see that now? That isn't what I'm after now. I just wanted to show you while I was on the line. But 1656, that was when.., AM that was when the flood was. Now Noah built that Ark and it was 120 years in the building. 1536 years. Did you catch that 120; in other words, he began to
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2) 1959: SPIRIT IN YOU; CHRISTENDOOM REUNITING
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build it in 1536 AM.1 And that was the end of that age there. And now, 1656. Now watch what I'm fixing to say to you. He builded that Ark to save. Now 427 years after the flood God made this promise with Abraham. Take 427 and 1656 AM is 2348 BC.2 Now that's what you see down here on this chart. Now if you go, this would be 4004. Now he is seeing this vision of this creation up here. Right here. That's the reason why we tried to fix it up around here so you could see that Moses saw this vision of the creation of heaven and earth in 1491. And to tell you one day with the Lord would be 4000 years, when the son came in there. Now do you see that now? And then the other 2000 he's raising up this Adam and Eve or that real building, sure enough building of that Temple will be in the second Adam and the second Eve with all.., which is Jerusalem above, the Mother of us all. Now God has made that promise according to Abraham and those that are to be lively stones in that building. And we are being builded up a house now, right now, through the Holy Spirit being incarnated in us, I mean tonight. Right now. That real Temple is going up right now. And when those whom God foreknew are all in it and then shall the end come. I'll tell you in that way. When it is time that the whole thing, all of them lively stones that being, is put together and growing, as Paul said, into a Holy Temple in the Lord. What for? For a habitation of God through the Spirit. When it's completed then everything comes to an end.
Now then, the promise that God made to Abraham. I'm trying to talk so you can understand me tonight. The promise that God made to Adam back there, and come on down and made the promise to Abraham 427 years after the flood. Now if we would correct that chronology, then we'd put them 3 years back in there, that would be 430. But we'll just go ahead on so that you can look it up in your book and catch the right figures, and you won't get lost. The promise that God made to Abraham back there, which was, the promise of the redeemer from Adam to Moses, skipping over the head, now of Abraham and Noah, and From Abraham to Moses; which means clear on up to Christ, because the Mosaic Law come on up to Christ. But God confirmed the covenant that He made with Abraham by making him a promise, like this, that in his seed, which is Christ, He would bless all of the families of the earth. Now I want you to see I have been standing around telling you that, but I want you to see that it is in the Bible. So I want you to read where that the covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised, in the Book. I want you to read.
__________
1 1656 AM (Garden of Eden to the Flood)
- 120 years the ark was in building
1536 AM: the year that Noah started building the ark (number of years from the Garden of Eden to Noah's vision and the building of the ark.)
2 4004 Garden of Eden
- 1656 AM year of the Flood
2348 BC or BY year of the Flood
- 427
1921 BC or BY Promise given to Abraham
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2) 1959: SPIRIT IN YOU; CHRISTENDOOM REUNITING
(also called: THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL)
Reader: Down here, well, up here in 17:10, it says, of Genesis.
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Reader: This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. Then over here in the 24th verse. And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Dr. Kinley: Now Abraham was 99 years when he was circumcised in the foreskin of his flesh. Now Ishmael was already born. Read on.
Reader: And Ishmael, his son, was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the self same day was.
Dr. Kinley: Now Ishmael's born. 13 years old, not 8 days after, but 13. So Abraham, he was circumcised when he was 99 years old and Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised. Now that's him and his father. Alright, read.
Reader: In the self same day was Abraham circumcised.
Dr. Kinley: Now that self same day Abraham was circumcised.
Reader: and Ishmael, his son.
Dr. Kinley: And Ishmael, his son. So he was not circumcised when Ishmael was born. Now when you just tell somebody these things, they don't think that it's possible to overlook all of these things in the Book. You get it now? And why is it that I didn't know something about it? Now then, go in and get you the Jewish commentator. And if they put the same thing in there that's in the original manuscript, it's got to be the same way. That's the way that it is. Alright, read.
Reader: And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of a stranger, were circumcised with him.
Dr. Kinley: Now did you see that? Can you see whether he was or not now? Is it in the Book? Now, here's the point. That's why the Apostle Paul, over here in Romans, referring back to Abraham where you often, referring back again, this is where you often hear me speak that circumcision or uncircumcision doesn't mean anything in the flesh. But circumcision in the heart and instead of in the flesh, that's where it shows. And you see that Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised; which means the coming on down under the Law the Gentiles then, not having the law, but since Abraham was the father, and he was not circumcised at the time, then he was afterwards circumcised that he would.., so that he could be the father, just like God made the promise to him, of many nations so then they had to be some
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2) 1959: SPIRIT IN YOU; CHRISTENDOOM REUNITING
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born, that Ishmael had to be born before they were circumcised. And then before the birth of Isaac, then they had to be circumcised, that he might be the father of both the uncircumcision and the circumcision child.
Then coming on down under the dispensation of the Law, if the Gentile would... That's why the Temple was builded that way, with a Court of the Gentiles and a Court of the Jews in it. So then, since the Temple was builded that way, the Temple was a figure, watch now, was a figure of the seed, because the Temple was not builded under Abrahamic regime, Melchizedek was High Priest at that time. King of Salem which is in the same place of Jerusalem, which is the ancient name for it. And Melchizedek addressed Abraham while both, neither Ishmael or Isaac had been born or in other words while the seed was within his loins. So then Ishmael being born before he's circumcised and then God had done made this promise to him before either one was born. And now when Isaac, it come time for Isaac to be born then God renews the same covenant again. Then when Isaac and Ishmael are born then comes up this squabble between Hagar, Ishmael's mother, and Sarah or Isaac's mother. And so Sarah said to the Lord that the promise, Isaac would be the seed. And God had caused her to say that. And then therefore, God said in Isaac, instead of in Ishmael, shall thy seed be. Then you have the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, which is the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Now Ishmael, Ishmael, being circumcised after he's born, Abraham being circumcised before Isaac was born, and then Isaac being circumcised eight days after his birth. Watch the thought now. Then that means this, that all that are in the family of God, are solemnly true Israelites, all of them are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands and were one in that body through the circumcision of the seed which is Christ. And that's what Paul is talking about in all of his epistles having been made the minister of the Gentiles.
Now look. I wanna show you something else about that. Now please try to get this straight. Now the promise that was made 427 years after the flood and 430 years before, before the law. Now the law didn't just simple go ahead and just rub out the promise. It didn't do that, or the law did not take the place of the promise. Now you have, are you listening, you have the covenant that was made with Abraham, you have the covenant that was made with the Children of Israel, the first covenant, then you have the second covenant. Now that's three covenants: the covenant with Abraham, the covenant, the first covenant with Israel, and then the new covenant with Israel. Now that's three covenants. Then of Abraham's seed, which is Christ, who is also the Son of the David, as they call him, that he would, another covenant, promised David that he would raise him up and set him upon the throne, set Christ or his son, David's son. And therefore, they called Jesus, when He was walking around healing everybody, they called Him the Son of David.
But they asked Him a lotta questions. And then He comes back with this question, why then did David in spirit say, I'm giving it to you so that you can understand, why did David say, My LORD, say unto my Lord, sit down on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Now that's over in the old
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(also called: THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL)
Bible. See what I'm trying to say? That's back over there. Now they missed 'em, all of them covenants. Now, the New Covenant, it could not come with Israel. And neither could the promise come with Israel. Then I said the promise that God made to Abraham, that couldn't come of effect. And neither could the New Covenant that God had made with Israel come of effect until the seed of Abraham, which was of Christ, which was Christ. And the law that was made, the first covenant had to be fulfilled and moved out of the way so that the promise that God made to Abraham... Now here's the law, let me see if I can put this down this way, L A W.
Now here's the promise. Now the promise comes on over here, on over here, and is effect now; in other words I mean both Jew and Gentile becoming a recipient of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Now I'm fixing to get in trouble, but you stick down here boy cause I want everybody to understand what I'm talking about.
Now this Jesus told them before He ascended, now you go back to Jerusalem and tarry ye, you stay right there until you receive the promise of the Father there or until you receive the Holy Ghost. Don't you leave there. And at the end of that time, 10 days after He ascended, He poured out the Holy Spirit. Now watch. Now the Holy Spirit. Can I use you this time, this is a good one. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) The Holy Spirit in this man, Ti, is his inner man. His outer man is the veil or is the flesh over this Holy Spirit that is incarnated within him. Now the Holy Spirit, just like when Jesus was here walking around in the flesh, in the Spirit He was God the Father. The flesh, the Son. Now when He takes off.., that Holy Spirit being in him, this flesh is the veil. That's that veil that they had to go through here. Stand still, I'll get it. Right in through the veil. Now every priest, every rabbi and all knows that that's the way that was in there. He had to go through that veil on the 10th day. The veil represented the flesh. Now the Holy Spir... To come in here, that's God in this Tabernacle, that's God in there. Now here we are, right here, in body. In spirit this is where we are. So now you can't see the Holy Spirit in this man. But when the Holy Spirit that is in him, which is the promise that God had poured out, and told them to stay there in Jerusalem, not Rome, but Jerusalem. Now when the fullness of time come or at the proper time, just like the Day of Pentecost was the day when it was, they didn't know, but that Day it was poured out. Now when the time come for this flesh to be changed, the Holy Spirit being in this man will rend this veil or remove this physical body, and it will immortalize this physical body. But God or the Holy Spirit must be in him. Now how come the Holy Spirit's in him? The Holy Spirit is in him because that's the way God has made the promise, if you believe that the seed, which is Christ, has brought that blessing, or brought the Holy Spirit, died and brought the Holy Spirit in him. Now when the flesh is removed, instead of him being, that'll do, in physical Jerusalem he's in the Jerusalem, the Heavenly Jerusalem in both body and spirit. Whereas he's in the Spirit, he's there now. That's what Paul is talking about in the 12th chapter of Hebrews; ye have not come to the mount that might be touched, but you have come to the Heavenly Jerusalem. You already got there. Now you see through what I'm talking about? Now that's
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2) 1959: SPIRIT IN YOU; CHRISTENDOOM REUNITING
(also called: THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL)
the seed of Abraham, that is the salvation of Israel. That's the salvation of Israel.
Now the spot again I want to show you is this, that whosoever is born of God, don't make no difference who you are. Let me see if I can say this. It's hard to find words, I'm always up against it anyway. I believe in John, Dr. Gross help me find this over in here. Any man be born of God, that's that new birth. That physical birth back there is all over with. We're through with the physical man and now we're after the inner man. Now if Christ, being the seed, I said the seed of Abraham, to whom the blessing has come or through whom we have become the recipient of the Holy Spirit. Now when we are born of that, you cannot commit sin, because... Why can't you do it? It's because you are born above. And then what happens is because the seed, the seed, the seed remains in you. We can't do it. Now then, now here we go again. Watch. Now the carnal mind, looking at the natural man and the carnal mind, that thing that you take for granted, you could smoke a cigar, you touch anything physical... (TAPE ENDS)
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3) DECEMBER 9, 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
DISPUTANTS: RN HOGAN AND DR. HENRY C. KINLEY
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on a reel to reel tape recorder
audio cassette recording received from Lamar Greer
3 100 minute audio cassettes
Catalog #: 63.1209
TRANSCRIBERS:
First night, December 9, 1963:
Steve LaPorte: Most of Pastor Hogan's speech
Jack LaPorte: End of Pastor Hogan's speech and Dr. Kinley's speech
Mary Colucci: Pastor Hogan's rebuttal and the beginning of Dr. Kinley's rebuttal
Therese Como: Conclusion to Dr. Kinley's rebuttal
Second Night, December 10, 1963:
Anne Mastropaolo: Dr. Kinley's speech & beginning of Pastor Hogan's speech:
Pamela Rosen and Cathy Fenti: remainder of Pastor Hogan's speech and beginning of Dr. Kinley's rebuttal
Gerry Rothstein: Completion of Dr. Kinley's rebuttal and Pastor Hogan's rebuttal
first proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that the speaker ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. All words of both speakers have been transcribed, except ah and uh. These words were used infrequently by both speakers.
3. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
4. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Page 01
3) DECEMBER 9, 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
A BRIEF HISTORY TO THIS DEBATE
TAKEN FROM
1. LASALLE WILLIAM'S PERSONAL TESTIMONY AT THE 1989 EASTERN REGIONAL CONVENTION,
AND
2. ONE OF DR. KINLEYS LECTURES AT THE 1967 CONVENTION ENTITLED: HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS.
LaSalle Williams was a minister in the Church of Christ for 18 years. At the time he became involved in the ministry with the Church of Christ, the elders from the white Church of Christ took care of and educated some of those who showed promise in the black Church of Christ. LaSalle Williams was one of these. They would drill them and have them memorize entire chapters of the Bible that pertained to baptism.
For seven years Reverend Williams had been an assistant pastor for Reverend RN Hogan, a Church of Christ minister with about 450 to 500 parishioners. Later Reverend Williams became minister of his own Church of Christ with about 150 parishioners in regular attendance.
Three IDMR members, Doctors Fred Allen, Jr., Burbank Mitchell, and James Parker, attended a Wednesday night Bible study at Reverend Williams' church, disputing water baptism with some of his congregation. Since Reverend Williams was out of town at the time, he asked his parishioners to invite the men back. He became embarrassed and ashamed upon seeing his parishioners behave unseemly during the question and answer period with the IDMR people. He thought he had taught his people to be hospitable to strangers. After the meeting, Reverend Williams approached Burbank Mitchell and asked him, 'Who is your leader?' Upon hearing the response, he wondered who this Doctor Kinley was, since he knew most of the ministers in the area. He then asked where they held their church services.
He then attended one of the IDMR classes in Los Angeles, California. He was seated right up front. Doctor Harris was the first speaker. Reverend Williams was asked to be the second speaker. He did speak using his usual preaching style. At the conclusion of class, Doctor Kinley invited him back. Reverend Williams wanted to talk about baptism, stating he believed water baptism was essential to salvation. Doctor Kinley disagreed stating it was not essential in this Age of Grace. Reverend Williams then challenged Doctor Kinley to a public debate, and made an agreement with Doctor Kinley that winner take all; in other words if Doctor Kinley won the debate Reverend Williams would go and bring all his congregation to the IDMR and vice versa. Since the IDMR did not have a facility large enough, Reverend Williams suggested that he might be able to obtain Reverend RN Hogan's church on Figueroa in Los Angeles for the debate.
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3) DECEMBER 9, 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
RN Hogan agreed that they could use his church for the debate and Reverend Williams then began to set up the debate with Doctor Kinley. Later Reverend Hogan discussed with Reverend Williams that it would be better if RN Hogan himself do the debate since he was an older man and more experienced, stating that he had already made his mark in the religious community. They agreed that it would leave a mark on LaSalle William's reputation and hurt him financially if he lost the debate.
Reverend Williams conferred with Doctor Kinley as to whether he would debate Reverend RN Hogan instead. Doctor Kinley's response was that it didn't matter to him, all he wanted to do was to preach the gospel anywhere.
At some point during this time period, Doctor Kinley was invited for a debate with the Church of Christ on Adams Street in Los Angeles. Dr. Kinley said he didn't want to debate because they were not honest. They claimed that they were honest and that they were the church that Christ built. Reverend Moore was sent to do the job. That night with Dr. Kinley and other class members in the audience, Reverend Moore belligerently argued against Dr. Kinley and told Dr. Kinley to shut up, although Dr. Kinley had not said anything. Reverend Moore said, 'you don't know what you're talking about, your founder and dean, he's ignorant and all you people that following him is ignorant.' Reverend Moore argued the entire time. At the conclusion of his discourse, he refused to sit and listen to Dr. Kinley, and walked out the door, leaving 1 0 minutes for Dr. Kinley.
After Reverend Williams kept after Dr. Kinley to debate, he went down with some class members to the Church of Christ on Figaro, Reverend RN Hogan's church, to make arrangements for the debate that Reverend Williams was setting up. Reverend Moore was setting there in a wheelchair. Dr. Kinley said he was a man that had rebuked God to His face. He had had a paralytic stroke through high blood pressure. Dr. Kinley said that he was gonna stay seated this time whether he wanted to or not. Reverend Hogan then had the nerve to stand up by the wheelchair with Dr. Kinley sitting in the audience of about 400 and said, 'Now you got a place to do your stuff. You're such a great, divine healer. Now you come on up and do your number, you're so great.'
During the debate, which is contained in the transcript that follows Reverend Williams sat and listened to both sides. After the debate Doctor Kinley asked Reverend Williams what he thought of the debate. Reverend Williams stated he thought Doctor Kinley had lost the debate and wondered why he hadn't stayed on the subject. Doctor Kinley reminded him that he had just wanted to preach the gospel. Reverend Williams responded to Doctor Kinley that he had lost the debate but had won him. Doctor Kinley told him that he needed to go back and teach his people the truth.
Reverend Williams went back to Reverend RN Hogan's church on a Wednesday night. Reverend RN Hogan was out of town, but Reverend Williams told the people the truth as he had learned it. While he was explaining this, someone called the police. He was taken by the police for disturbing the peace and was hand cuffed. He was stripped and put in a padded cell. His wife would eventually come and take him home, since no charges were ultimately pressed. He was shocked since he
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3) DECEMBER 9, 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
thought that his congregation loved him and would come with him, but instead when he told them the truth they had turned against him.
At the first National IDMR Convention in 1967, LaSalle Williams was nominated and elected by the IDMR congregation to Board of Trustees. Doctor Kinley often used Doctor Williams as a representative of and witness against the clergy.
Not only did this man lose his church but he was ostracized by his own family. But as Doctor LaSalle Williams accounted at all four IDMR regional conventions in 1989 that that was nothing in comparison to what he had gained.
December 9, 1963:
Proposition: Resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past alien sins.
Affirmative: Reverend RN Hogan
Negative: Doctor Henry Clifford Kinley
pages 7 - 21: Reverend RN Hogan's Speech
pages 22 - 31: Dr. HC Kinley's Speech
pages 32 - 43: Reverend Hogan's Rebuttal
pages 44 - 52: Dr. Kinley's Rebuttal
December 10, 1963:
(Los Angeles, California, New Park Manor, 607 South Western Ave.
pages 53 - 61: Dr. Kinley's Speech
pages 62 - 77: Reverend Hogan's Speech
pages 78 - 84: Dr. Kinley's Rebuttal
pages 85 - 96: Reverend Hogan's Rebuttal
Timekeepers: IDMR: Fred Allen;
Church of Christ: unknown
Moderators: IDMR: Burbank Mitchell;
Church of Christ: Brother Perkins
Readers: IDMR: Dr. Harris;
Church of Christ: unknown
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3) DECEMBER 9, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
FIRST NIGHT: INTRODUCTIONS AND PRELIMINARIES
TAPE 1, SIDE A:
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: ... which have gone to both sides. Things that's supposed to be in here tonight have been talked over. They have been discussed and the rules have been signed to that affect. Thus we shall expect them not to violate any of the rules agreed upon.
One of the rules that should especially be kept upon is that no disputant shall present new material unless his opponent has to. If that is done, we will have to consider the debate out of order, until it gets back in order, well then we will consider it out of order. It really isn't fair for the opponent to come up with the.., for • disputant to come up and his opponent has little chance to reply and to present • new argument. So we want to make that clear tonight, if that should happen then we're going to have to stop the debate until it gets in order.
I've always entertained the idea that a debate of this kind or a discussion of this kind could be productive of much good. And if we conduct ourselves in an orderly manner.
Someone: That's right. That's alright.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: In order for the maximum amount of good to be obtained from a discussion of this kind, the audience must follow certain rules also. Not only are we asking the disputants to follow their rules that they have agreed upon, but we ask of this audience to follow certain rules. We're going to ask that each one refrain from any kind of oral out bursts, try to control your emotions this evening. I know that, that certainly, certain of some what emotion will run a little high in the discussion, but we're gonna ask that you hold 'em in check, control them. Let the disputers do the debating. Please do not under any circumstances engage in a discussion or dispute among yourselves. That will not be permitted. So now, let's start the debate and we can get on with this occurrence.
May I reiterate, please do not engage in a dispute among yourselves. Now the moderator for Doctor Kinley and his group is Mr. Mitchell. I don't know whether he will have anything to say, I think he has told me that...
Someone: Give him three minutes.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: We will have the moderator to ____ say something.
Now this is the proposition: resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past alien sins. Now Brother Hogan is in the affirmative, he believes that water, literal water, as the proposition says here, the penitent believer is essential to his salvation. He saying, yes that's true, that's right. And he's going to attempt to prove that. He's going to prove that this
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3) DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
FIRST NIGHT: INTRODUCTIONS AND PRELIMINARIES
evening.
Doctor Kinley is in the negative on that and he's saying, no that isn't true. One does not have to be baptized of water to be saved. ___ ___ some what and bring it right down through.
And at this time we're gonna turn the rostrum over to Mr. Mitchell, he would have to have his one word or so.
Like to say this now that Brother ____ and the other one's....
Someone: Allen.
Moderator: Allen. Doctor Allen, I believe he addresses himself as Doctor Allen. They're going to be the time keepers. Mr. Mitchell and myself will be the moderators. There will be two 45 minute speeches each and Brother Hogan's beginning, and there will be a 30 minute rebuttal. Mr. Mitchell.
IDMR Moderator, Burbank Mitchell: There was just two things that are on my mind that I'll make, make as a opening address, as one of the moderators for this evening. I wanna set your minds at ease right away. Now Brother Perkins and I are in complete harmony, in complete accord in what we are to do and what our
responsibilities are as far as moderators for this evening. And we will carry those out.
I think another thing I'd like to express right now is this, and Doctor Perkins has already stated and I... as you can see I'm a Caucasian, I'm a white man, as some people look at it, but I didn't come down here to come down here this evening to be in a negro congregation. This thing to me has gone past what I see in a man as far as color or flesh. This debate tonight is a very serious thing to me, because Doctor Perkins and 1, I hope everybody else here this evening will recognize that as Isaiah said knowledge and wisdom shall be the stability of the times, it shall be the strength of salvation. We've come here to listen this evening to two, two gentlemen expound knowledge of God, the strength of salvation. To me that surpasses everything else. So consequently, I'm here to learn in all humility of my Father. And I trust that not only the members of the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research that are present, with anybody else will be this evening believing in God, as we all should do 24 hours a day and conduct ourselves as ambassadors of Christ. I think you all agree with me on that. Don't you?
Someone: Yes, sir.
IDMR Moderator, Burbank Mitchell: I don't think that's too much to ask of any of anybody if we believe in God.
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3) DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH
FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: ... to come forth for his first 20 minute discussion. Are there any that ___, there are tape recorders, will each disputant announce his name when they begin. ___ that would be in order. We're gonna take the time to do that.
Someone: That's a request.
Pastor Hogan: RN Hogan. Honorable moderators, my worthy opponent, brethren, sisters, ladies, gentlemen and friends.
I count myself happy to have the privilege of affirming the proposition that has been read in your hearing. I affirm this proposition because, I believe my affirmation is true and right. It is the question of a debater to define his proposition well, make it clear that there'll be no misunderstanding, connected with the proposition or with what he is affirming or denying.
It's been read, resolved that the scriptures teach. By scriptures I simply mean the Old and New Testament. There is 66 books in the Bible. 39 which is in the Old and 27 in the New.
By teaching I simply mean set forth either by direct command, precept, example, or necessary input.
By baptism, I simply mean a dipping. And baptism just simply means dipped in water or immersed in literal.
By literal I simply mean natural water that that can be seen and handled.
Of the penitent. A penitent, I mean one who has turned from a wicked pursuit of life.
Believer is one who has heard the word of God, and the Bible teaches faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And that he has heard God's words and therefore believes it.
It's essential, I mean it's necessary... this present Dispensation of Grace the Bible teaches that the law came from Moses but grace and truth came from Jesus Christ. That's the dispen... dispensation in which we are in.
From past or alien sins, I mean the sins that he committed before baptism, before being born into God's common... becoming a citizen, of God; government upon earth-
Sins, I mean those transgressions of God's law... sin is a transgression of the law and those transgressions.., they transgressed before submitting to heaven's will
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to get rid of.
I hope that's clear. I hope you understand the proposition well. Now we shall go on with our part of discussion. I am going to call attention to this proposition again and proceed. Resolve that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past or alien sins.
The first thing I wish to call attention to is the fact that Ephesians 4 and 5, we are taught there is one baptism. I want that to.., I want to drive that point home. This is about AD 64. About 23 years after the last record of Holy Ghost baptism, Paul said, guided by the Holy Spirit, to the brethren at Ephesus there is one baptism. Now if the Holy Spirit teaching is right, two would by too many or more than one would be too many. He said there is one baptism. If it is Holy Ghost baptism, then it is neither fire nor water. If it is fire baptism then it is neither water nor the Holy Ghost. If it is water baptism then it is neither Holy Ghost nor fire for the Bible says there is one. So we'll keep that in mind.
I'm glad that I have what I... seem to be a worthy opponent. As I understand it he has DD and a PhD degree; therefore, I say a worthy one because I don't have to be going around trying to make a man with such outstanding education understand simple language.
So now since he said there is one, then it's up to us to find out what that one baptism is, what it meant when he said there is one. Well 1, I'll raise the question since I'm in the affirmative. What is it? That same Apostle, by the same spirit, to the same church, in the same book, just the next chapter says it is water. Get Ephesians 5 and 25. He said there is one baptism and we're gonna find out from the same apostle by the same spirit what that one baptism is. Ephesians 5 and 25. Read it sir.
Reader: Husbands love your wives
Pastor Hogan: Husbands love your wives
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it
Reader: with the washing of water by the word
Pastor Hogan: with the washing of water by the word.
Reader: That He might present it
Pastor Hogan: That's all I want to know. We're not discussing the Church. There's one baptism; and the apostle said that Christ gave Himself, if you please, for the Church, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.
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Now ladies and gentlemen, I wanna say just a little bit about water. Now when literal water, natural water, that's water that you can see, ___ ___ he simply says water, but when spiritual water or when He's speaking metaphorically, if any other water is referred to, it is plainly pointed out. When spiritual water is involved it's.., Saul pointed out, by the word, living water or water of life. And I challenge my opponent to read one place or give one scriptural hint where the Lord has ever commanded anybody at anytime to be baptized in living water or water of life. Living water or water of life is in the person. That water, that water is in the person, but when it comes to being baptized, you put the person in the water. Now there's a difference in the person being in the water and the water being in him.
I want to, I want to get that one baptism, wanted to get that one baptism, get it before you clear, so you may know that even my opponent would have to agree that there is one or say the Holy Spirit made a mistake when He said there is one through the Apostle Paul.
Now, our subject ___ ___ the commissioned baptism is not an Old Testament subject. Did you hear what I said? The commissioned baptism as given by Christ in Matthew 28:19 is not an Old Testament thing. Some people try to impress us that it's Old Testament subject and it is nailed to the cross associated with carnal ordinances and nailed to the cross when Christ died. Well bless your heart, this baptism, the commissioned baptism could not have been nailed to the cross because it was given after the cross and after Christ died on the cross, when He gave the orders to go teach and baptize. (BABIES START CRYING) So we find, ladies and gentlemen, that after Christ got up from the grave He appeared unto the disciples to declare that all authority had been given unto Him and told them to go teach and baptize. And here's the part I want you to get. Christ told the disciples in Matthew 28:19. Read it, if you wanna read it.
Reader: Go ye therefore
Pastor Hogan: Go ye therefore now for what reason, for what reason. (BABY STOPS CRYING) Therefore means for this reason. He is ___ in the 18th verse, according to the American Standard, all the authority in heaven and earth has been given unto Me. Go ye therefore
Reader: And teach all nations
Pastor Hogan: And teach all nations
Reader: Baptizing them
Pastor Hogan: Baptizing them
Reader: In the name
Pastor Hogan: Now ladies and gentlemen I'm ready to affirm that is water baptism. Why? Ah ha.
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You see my opponent doesn't believe that is water baptism. My opponent because water baptism isn't mentioned, because it didn't say water here, he's decided that that is another baptism. What I said is water. Why do you said it? Well it is because the Lord commanded His disciples to administer. I challenge my opponent to read from God's Word of any other baptism that the disciples can administer. The only baptism the disciples or men can administer is water. Christ was the administrator of the Holy Spirit baptism. Christ will be administrator of fire baptism. The only baptism man can administer is water and Christ told 'em to go teach and baptize in the name of the Father.
Reader: And of the Son
Pastor Hogan: And of the Son
Reader: And of the Holy Ghost
Pastor Hogan: And of the Holy Spirit. In the name simply means by the authority and preaching in Christ's name is not baptizing. Preaching is one thing and baptizing'em is another. You baptize a person as a result of preaching. Jesus said in Mark 16 and 16, go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Fine.
Proposition that I'm affirming is that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer this Dispensation of Grace is essential to his salvation from past alien sin. Jesus said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Ladies and gentlemen this is the commissioned baptism. This is only Mark's record of it. Matthew said, go teach and baptize, giving men the orders to baptize. Lord Jesus made baptism a condition of salvation. He that by the Holy Spirit commanded baptism and promised the gift of the Holy Spirit after repentance and baptism. Acts 2:38, Acts 2:38.
Reader: Then Peter said unto them
Pastor Hogan: Now this is one reason why I know it was the Holy Ghost baptism. Now Peter had preached to them. And you start at the 22nd verse and come on down. There at the 4th verse, they began to speak as the spirit gave utterance, so Peter preached the gospel unto them, go convict 'em to their heart because the Bible says when they heard this, they were pricked to the heart, into their heart, in their heart and said unto Peter and the rest of the brethren, men and brethren, what shall we do? Here comes the answer.
Reader: Then Peter said unto them
Pastor Hogan: Then Peter said unto them
Reader: Repent and be baptized
Pastor Hogan: Repent and be baptized. This is a command. Holy Spirit baptism never was a command. I challenge my opponent to read any place from the Bible where Holy Ghost baptism was ever commanded. Holy Ghost baptism was a promise, the fire baptism was ___. The only baptism commanded is water baptism. Find another baptism command. All right what did he say?
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Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ
Pastor Hogan: In the name means by the authority. You go down to the local bank and get a check cashed in my name, that's by my authority or to jail you go. Police come in here and arrest you in the name of the law, that's by the authority. So Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name or by the authority of Jesus Christ.
Reader: For the remission of sins
Pastor Hogan: For the remission. Remission means to cancel, brought out of the way. So I'm affirming this proposition in order to his salvation from past alien sins. Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.
Reader: And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
Pastor Hogan: Then comes the Holy Spirit, after they have obeyed the command. What is the command? Repent and be baptized. What is the promise of the result? You receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. After baptism the gift or, ladies and gentlemen, the command was to be baptized. The promise was remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. So that is water baptism because it is commanded.
The only way in the world, ladies and gentlemen, that my opponent can get around that is to get up and say that the Holy Spirit baptism was commanded because he believes in the Holy Ghost baptism. He teaches it; in fact he teaches two baptisms. He teaches baptism in the name or preaching the gospel, in the name is baptizing people. I know he's not gonna deny it because I have his book right there and I got the place marked. Yes sir you're preaching, you're baptized it. Well if you're baptizing then you get a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you can get the Holy Spirit right now, he has two, and the Bible says there is one. Preaching is baptism? Never has been and never will be. Preaching is done to get people to submit to baptism. Coming on down.
They was preaching the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ and the believers were baptized. As Acts 8:12 would be airight brethren.
Reader: But when they believed Philip
Pastor Hogan: when they believed Philip
Reader: Preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Pastor Hogan: Preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Reader: And the name of Jesus Christ
Pastor Hogan: and the name of Jesus Christ
Reader: they were baptized
Pastor Hogan: they were baptized
Reader: both men and women
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Pastor Hogan: both men and women. I ask the question: what kind of baptism was that? It couldn't have been Holy Ghost baptism because they hadn't received the Holy Ghost. The apostles had to come down Jerusalem and lay their hands on 'em in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.
And ladies and gentlemen, I will make a statement here 1, 1, I guarantee you this statement'll stand the act. I'm.., statements alright to make as long as you back 'em up with the Bible. And you know.., here is what it is: the Holy Spirit never was miraculously given, never was miraculously given without the presence of an apostle. I challenge my opponent to find anything about the Holy Ghost was miraculously given without the presence of an apostle. That's the reason I know he isn't baptized because there is no apostle here, even at... to lay his hands on him that he might receive a miraculous, a miraculous measure of it. What? I gonna let that stand as it is. The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, ladies and gentlemen, came by the laying on of the apostles hands and no other way. Laying on of the apostles hand after the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and at the house of Cornelius. We're gonna study both of those very soon, if it's advanced by my opponent in his argument. Alright.
But they'll preach the name of Christ, they were baptized, men and women, it could not have been the Holy Ghost baptism because they didn't receive the Holy Ghost before the apostles heard about their being baptized of Philip and sent Peter and John over there. Even my opponent would tell us what kinda baptism it was that they got before they received the Holy Ghost if it wasn't baptism. And it's up to him to tell us what that baptism was. We'll wait and see if he tells us. He couldn't tell Holy Ghost baptism because they hadn't received... Go over there to the 8th chapter. Are you still there? Alright. Go over... read down there, if you please, about the third... 14th verse.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Now when the Apostles which were in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.
Reader: Who when they were come down
Pastor Hogan: who when they were come down
Reader: prayed for them
Pastor Hogan: prayed for them
Reader- that they might receive the Holy Ghost.
Pastor Hogan: that they might receive the Holy Ghost. Why?
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For as yet He was fallen upon none of them
Reader: Only they were baptized in the Lord Jesus.
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Pastor Hogan: And so then it couldn't have been Holy Ghost baptism. He'll tell us what kind of bap.., we ask him to tell us what kinda baptism was that? Well let us if he does hear the preaching and he's filled with the Holy Spirit.
Sixth chapter of Acts. Even when he was selected as a deacon before he became an evangelist, they selected a man filled with the Holy Ghost. He was filled with the Holy Ghost, he was guided by the Holy Ghost and suddenly come to him, baptism. He wouldn't baptize one group one way and then go right down and baptize someone else another way. So Philip under the guidance of the Holy Spirit baptized a man of Eth.., of Ethiopia in water. I wonder if the Holy Ghost made a mistake. Don't come telling me that Philip made a mistake, because Philip was under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, because the Spirit told him, go near and join yourself to the chariot. He was a preaching, if you please, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He preached to that man Jesus and they went on their way til they came to certain water. And the eunuch said, see. That's literal water, that's the kind you can see. See. I'm so glad he said see. Don't know what to do if my opponent got up here and said that is spiritual water. This is water you can see. What does hinder me to be baptized? My opponent would say, 'oh, they going in the water, I'll tell you, you're wasting your time, why He nailed everything... Christ nailed that to the cross long ago.' Yet the Holy Spirit guided, and the spirit didn't tell him what my opponent would tell. That's why I say he would because I know he'd do it, I have his book. I always like to have these fellas books. I have it here. What seemed like the Holy Spirit overlooked the expediency. He didn't say, 'oh, there's nothing to water baptism here, it don't have nothing to do with your salvation there,' instead of saying that, through Philip He said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. My subject that I'm affirming is the penitent believer is a man who is a believer when he said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They commanded the chariot to stand still. Both got out of the chariot. Well read that sir.
Reader: And he commanded the chariot to stand still
Pastor Hogan: commanded the chariot to stand still
Reader: And they both went down into the water
Pastor Hogan: Ohhhh. He didn't need that for Holy Ghost baptism. They both went down into the water. What kind of water was it? It was the water they could see. The eunuch said, see here it is. Both went down into the wa... They both, B 0 T H went down into the water.
Reader: Both Philip and the eunuch
Pastor Hogan: Both Philip and the eunuch
Reader: and he baptized him
Pastor Hogan: and he baptized him
Reader: and they were come up out of the water
Pastor Hogan: and they were come up out of the water
Reader: And the spirit of the Lord caught away Philip that the eunuch
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Pastor Hogan: Spirit still working with the preacher. Alright. Spirit went to the preacher, not to the man, to be baptized. The spirit went to the preacher and sent the preacher to the man. And by that spirit.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you what this is. This is a clear cut, of baptism by the spirit. Baptism by the spirit. 'Why do you say it's a clear cut of baptism by the spirit, Hogan?' Said that because the spirit was the guide in this teaching. Guiding the preacher, his teaching was by the Spirit.
You know just because first Corinthians 12 and 13 says, for by one spirit are we all baptized to one body. My opponent thinks that's Holy Ghost baptism. That's not Holy Ghost baptism. I submit Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost guides in this baptism, guides in the preaching. The Holy Spirit's the teacher. And the reason we're baptized in one body by the teaching of the spirit. 'Hogan, can you, can you read where the Holy Spirit is the teacher?' Get me first Corinthians 2:13. Now Paul was talking to the Corinthians when he said, for by one spirit we all are baptized into one body. He's talking to Corinthians. Now here Paul tells 'em that, it was that spirit teaching. Alright read.
Reader: Which things also we speak
Pastor Hogan: Which things also we speak
Reader: Not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth
Pastor Hogan: Not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth
Reader: But which the Holy Ghost teaches
Pastor Hogan: But which the Holy Ghost teaches. Don't you know that the Holy Ghost is a teacher. If I could get my opponent to stick to the teaching of the Holy Ghost baptizing tonight in water and for the remission of his sin, we'll do that. He teaches. No wonder he said, by one spirit all are baptized into one body. And I said this doesn't teach that the spirit is the enemy. The Holy Spirit guides.
John 16 and 13, He'll guide you in all truth.
And John 14:26, He will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all things that I have said unto you.
Oh, ladies and gentlemen, those Corinthians were baptized by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. About 3000 on the Day of Pentecost was baptized by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. And as a result they had the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The water baptism is a burial and a resurrection. That's a water baptism.
There's no such thing as a burial and a resurrection where the Holy Ghost baptism is concerned. It is a form of Christ's burial and resurrection. It's bound to be obeyed. Romans 6:17, God be thanked ye were servants of sins but you've obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you. Being then, and then means when, being then made free from sin. When were they made free from sin? When they've obeyed.
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Oh, ladies and gentleman, we understand that by one spirit we are, we are led by the one spirit, we are baptized by the one spirit, which is the teaching of the spirit.
And Galatians 5 and 18. Let's go to that and get that right quick.
And then Romans 8 and 14, for by one spirit. We wanna know what by one spirit means, not the Holy Ghost baptism, it's by the teaching of the Holy Spirit who was to guide and to teach. It serveth all men. The apostle. Read.
Reader: But if ye be led of the spirit
Pastor Hogan: But if ye be led of the spirit. That's alright.
Reader- Ye are not under the law
Pastor Hogan: So we are led by, not baptized by, ye being led by the spirit, so this is by the spirit too. They were baptized, one spiritual, baptized into one body. You are led by the spirit. Romans 8:14 says what?
Reader: For as many as are led by the spirit of God
Pastor Hogan: For as many as are led by the spirit of God
Reader: They are the sons of God
Pastor Hogan: They are the sons of God. So that by one spirit in first Corinthians 12 and 13 doesn't refer to Holy Ghost baptism. Spirit instructs.
Nehemiah 9 and 20, testified by the spirit of the prophet in Nehemiah 9 and 30. The prophets was moved by the spirit. I'm trying to get you to understand what by the spirit meant. Alright.
And in second Peter 1:19 and 20, we find, ladies and gentlemen, that the, the preaching was done with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. The apostle preached the gospel with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. ___ ___ ___ because time is right ___ ___. We find...
I think that's enough respecting by the Holy Spirit. We'll wait til our opponent goes over to first Corinthians 12 and 13 and we'll bring the rest to you.
Ladies and gentlemen, the next argument I wanna bring to you is the part that Christ was baptized and the argument that Christ was baptized by everyone, or everyone rather was baptized when Christ was baptized; other words, Christ was baptized for you and me, we don't have be baptized in water because Christ did it. Sure He did, but He didn't do it for you nor me. He died.., He did it to fulfill all righteousness. He came to do His Father's will. And His Father had commanded baptism. He sent John to baptize. And Christ was baptized, He said to fulfill all righteousness. Now all of God's commandments are righteousness. 119 division of Psalms 172nd verse, Christ fulfilled all of God's commandments. And one of His commandments we said was baptism.
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First John, I mean John 1 and 33. Christ did not say it becomes me to fulfill all righteousness, but thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. The us referred to Jesus and John. Why didn't Jesus command the disciples to teach and baptize? Why did He do that, if John had already baptized everybody? Now their contention is when John baptized Christ to fulfill all righteousness that was for everybody, He went back from.., all the way from Adam all the way down this present generation and generations to come. Well if He was ___ for everybody, I wonder why He commanded... Why did He command baptism after John had baptized. And John did the baptizing, then why didn't Jesus tell the disci.., 'what you go teach alright, but don't baptize anybody because John has already done that when he baptized Me.' And that's too ridiculous to go into, to push any farther. Why if, if, if everybody was baptized when John baptized you, what about those who rejected John's baptism? Get me Luke 7:30, Luke 7:30. To fulfill simply means to perform, to complete, to ad.., adhere to the terms of, to carry out, to execute, to put into effect, to measure it up to. And since the Master or God had sent John to baptize, it is a righteous thing because God ordered John to do it and Jesus simply fulfilled all righteousness when He come to the thing that God had commanded even, when He come to baptism. After John had baptized Him, He commanded baptism... commanded others to baptize as we have proved already. Airight, let's read that.
Reader: But the Pharisees and lawyers reject, rejected the counsel
Pastor Hogan: But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God
Reader: Against themselves
Pastor Hogan: against themselves
Reader: being not baptized of
Pastor Hogan: Being not baptized of John. Now the Bible says there were some that didn't submit to John's baptism. Well John baptized Jesus. But this Book said they were not baptized of John. Well now they said John's, thus it become us to fulfill all righteousness, so when John baptized Jesus, he baptized everybody else. But this Bible said.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PART.) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him
Pastor Hogan: Why Luke said that just isn't true, because here's someone who wouldn't submit to John's baptism, and they reject the counsel of God against themselves. In the conversion of the household of Cornelius, Peter was guided by... Here's another by the Spirit. He was guided by the Spirit.
According to John 16 and 13, Acts 10:19 and 20. Alright. Then Acts 10-19 and 20. I want you to read that. And also first Peter 1:11 and 12. Don't bother about that. We'll get to that later. Read Acts lO:19 and 2O though.
Reader: While Peter thought on the vision
Pastor Hogan: While Peter thought on the vision
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Reader: The spirit said unto him
Pastor Hogan: The spirit said unto him
Reader: Behold three men seek thee
Pastor Hogan: Behold three men seek thee
Reader: Arise therefore
Pastor Hogan: Arise therefore
Reader: and get thee down
Pastor Hogan: and get thee down
Reader: and go with them doubting nothing
Pastor Hogan: And go with them. Who said that? The spirit told him, Peter was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He went and he washed by the orders of the Spirit. Jesus had told him that the spirit when He come, He'll guide you in all truth. So he was guided by the, by the Spirit. Peter commanded them to be baptized by the authority of the Lord. Acts 10:48.
Reader: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord
Pastor Hogan: This is one thing I want you to get. In the 1 1 th chapter of the book of Acts and the 14th verse, he said, he shall tell thee words, why thou, about who thou and all thy house shall be saved. What did Peter tell 'em?
Reader: And he commanded them to be baptized
Pastor Hogan: And he commanded them to be baptized
Reader: In the name of the Lord
Pastor Hogan: In the name of the Lord. And I tell you the only baptism commanded is water baptism. Didn't it say he commanded them to be baptized?
Reader: And he commanded them to be baptized
Pastor Hogan: Alright he commanded. I say it's water because of His commandment. Let me prove it. Back up to the 47th verse.
Reader: Can any man forbid water?
Pastor Hogan: Oh, bless your heart. Don't want any ___. Can any man forbid water?
Reader: That these should not
Pastor Hogan: Oh my opponent would say, 'oh, hold on now. Uh uh now, no, no, no, no, no, I know that's Holy Ghost baptism.' I know it couldn't have been Holy Ghost cause they'd already received the Holy Ghost. So it couldn't.., God gave them the Holy Ghost, this is the first Gentile. I had there of course, this is what's bringing in of the Gentiles, household Cornelius. And a miracle took place, God gave the Gentiles the like gift of the Holy Spirit as He did the Jews to convince the Jews about the Gentiles accepted. Now if you doubt that, he'll read it. I just
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want to chall.., I want, I want that statement questioned. I have abundant proof that that is what he did it. Peter made, if you please, that same clear himself.
15th chapter of the book of Acts says again.
The 16th chapter of the book, or the 15th chapter of the book of Romans and, if you please, the 17th verse is an order that the Gentiles be accepted. I'll read it all Brother Moore, it'll all come up a little later. So Peter commanded 'em and therefore he said, can any man forbid water.
Reader and Pastor Hogan together: That these should not be baptized
Reader: Which have received the Holy Ghost
Pastor Hogan: Which have received the Holy Ghost. They'd already received the Holy Ghost. Now you Jews... And he took six Jewish brethren down there with him for his own protection. And you, you Jews that don't have any dealing with the Gentiles, unlawful thing to go and to keep company with one of another nation. Now can you forbid water here that God has convinced us that the Gentiles are accepted because He gave them the same measure of the Holy Spirit He did us who believed in the beginning, now he said, can any man forbid water? Can you object to water that these should not be baptized? My opponent rejects, 'you back to... oh, no, no, no, no, no, no water, no water, that's Holy Ghost baptism.' And the next verse says he commanded them to be baptized, that's water baptism. Alright. Let's read on. So we have, ladies and gentlemen, Peter commanded by the authority of the Lord. He commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord; hence it is by the authority of the Lord. It's the Lord who authorizes, it is the Lord who told him to go teach and baptize, which is water baptism because it is a command. Let me ask who can forbid water? Those that were with him were convinced because the Lord had proven to them that they were accepted- Was this a mistake? Did the Holy Spirit guide the Apostle to the mistake? Then remembered I the words of the Lord how He said, John baptized with water means Peter had forgotten. Had forgotten? Then the rest of the verse, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost was also forgotten by him, for he remembered both. Cornelius had already received the baptism of the Holy Ghost when Peter commanded him to be baptized.
Now baptism if you will is a burial and a resurrection if this is the Holy Spirit baptism then when resurrected, you're not in it. And if not in it, you don't have it, and if you don't have it, you're none of Him. Romans 8 and 9. Because the baptism called for burial and a resurrection. You're buried in it, you're raised out of it. And if you're raised out of it and you don't have it, you still don't have it, you're none of Him.
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We're not gonna be discussing it because we don't have the time, the circumcision of the flesh that is of by man's hand. Under the Old Law, what the circumcision by Christ, which allowed him is in baptism performed by God as a New Testament ordinance. Started after the cross. Baptism is commanded by Christ, performed by the Holy Spirit, the operation is done by God in putting away sin in baptism. Colossians 2:11, 12 and 13.
Now one of the most ridiculous arguments that I've ever heard presented by man is the argument of the baptism has to do with the water that we read about in the seventh chapter of the book of John. I want you to go there to seventh chapter of the book of John. And 1, I just want you to just study with me that chapter. I want you to see just how ridiculous such a contention is. And I know that is the contention cause I have it right here. Alright. And I'm sure we'll hear here about it, the Doctor when he comes with his arg.... Let's read the 38th verse.
Reader: For he that believeth on me
Pastor Hogan: He that believeth on me
Reader: As the scripture has said
Pastor Hogan: As the scripture has said
Reader: Out of his belly
Pastor Hogan: Out of his belly
Reader: shall flow rivers of living water
Pastor Hogan: shall flow rivers of living water. And I tell you when he speaks of spiritual water, it's in water. Now do you mean to tell me.., huh? That statement, it's in here, that that is the baptism that Cornelius was to receive. The baptism that's mentioned here, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Then we are to be baptized in the water that flows out of the belly of those who believe in Christ. (BELL RINGS)
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Five minutes.
Pastor Hogan: How many?
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Five.
Pastor Hogan: Five minutes. Thank you very kindly sir. Alright, but the Bible, read further.
Reader: But this spake he of the spirit
Pastor Hogan: But this spake he of the spirit
Reader: Which they that believe on him shall receive
Pastor Hogan: Which they that believe on him shall receive
Reader: For the Holy Ghost was not yet given
Pastor Hogan: For the Holy Ghost was not yet given
Reader: Because that Jesus was not yet glorified
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH
Pastor Hogan: Because He was ___. He was talking about the Holy Spirit, not water. Alright. And they preached by the Holy Spirit.
One thought I wanna leave and I wanna put this here so that my opponent will tangle with it: John 3:5. John 3:5 Jesus said to Nicodemus, verily, verily, I say except a man is born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Except a man is born of water and of the spirit. That's not Holy Ghost baptism, he's born of water and of the spirit. The spirit is the teacher. Let me tell you those who surrender to the teacher, the Holy Spirit, will go into literal water and be baptized according His teaching. Acts 2 and 38. So then, I wanna leave that with you.
And another because I wanna leave a plenty for my opponent to discuss. In Hebrews 10 and 25, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed pure water. 3 Pure water. Alright- Now, I want him to tangle with that when he comes.
In Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit. The washing is first, the renewing of the Holy Spirit follows and, and one washing. Washing of water by the word.
Ephesians 5 and 25.
Paul, Ananias told Saul baptize by rise and be baptized and wash away your sins. (HE MISQUOTES THE VERSE, ACTS 9:18) That's a command. Water baptism, the washing, ladies and gentlemen, is of water. Alright.
Coming on down, then we have also here in John, as we said in John 3-.5, we have Nicodemus thinking it is physical birth, but Jesus gave an understanding talking about not that which is of the flesh but is giving an understanding that this had to do with the entrance into the Kingdom. The Kingdom hadn't been established but Christ is giving a condition of entrance into the Kingdom. Let me tell you, how I know. Ladies and gentlemen, a will or testaments are forced after men are dead but let me tell you, he's got to make out a will before he dies. And Christ, when He said a thing, it'll stand, said, Heaven and Earth shall pass away but My word'Il not pass away. And He told 'em and even said, except a man... And that's generic. A man means any man, is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that. And it couldn't be the Holy Spirit because he said, water and... water and the spirit. And Christ was making out His will when He died. They didn't go about carrying out that great world wide commission until after the Son of God ascended to glory, despite the Holy Spirit that guideth him into all truth.
__________________________
3 Hebrews 10:22
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If they're teaching one by the Holy Spirit and accused them of making a mistake, it's not to accuse the apostle, it's to accuse the Holy Spirit. What man'll stand up and accuse the Holy Spirit of making a mistake. Alright.
So ladies and gentlemen that's it. No way of entering the Kingdom and no one can be saved out of the Kingdom because we find that Christ did according to the first chapter Colossian, the 13th verse; who has delivered us from the power of darkness, translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son. Have to enter the Kingdom in order to be saved, and in order to enter it, you must be born of water. He'll need some proof, ladies and gentlemen, that that's not literal water. Water and the spirit, he can not enter the Kingdom of God.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: One minute.
Pastor Hogan: Uh, thank you very kindly. Only one minute.... So I want you to keep these things in mind:
Number one: that there was one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. And I hope my point... Well, give us to understand. Said Paul commands one baptism, one ___ that is water in the next chapter and the 25th verse. Then we want him to explain who's mistaken about this. Paul said, Acts 1 and 49 is water. And this was stated 23 years after the last case of Holy Spirit baptism, which took place in AD and 41. Thank you very kindly.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
TAPE 1, SIDE B:
FIRST NIGHT: Dr. KINLEY'S SPEECH
Dr. Kinley: I am Henry C. Kinley of the Institute of Metaphysical Research, the Divine Institute of Metaphysical Research. We are holding our classes on Western and seventh... sixth, between sixth and seventh streets.
I would like to say first of all in clarification of my position... I have the supposed to be negative side of this debate. And I will read it to you as Brother Hogan did. Well, I'll read both of 'em so that you get... Resolved that the scriptures which is Brother Hogan's resolution here: resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past or alien sin. Now I'm supposed to have the negative side. Resolve, this is my proposition: resolve that the scriptures teach that in this present Dispensation of Grace that the alien sinner is saved without literal water baptism from past or alien sins.
Now, first of all I would like to say this. There is two dispensations involved in what we're talking about, to me, and I hope it is to everybody else. That's the Dispensation of the Law. Now that was closed out. Christ come to fulfill. So He said in Matthew 5:17, 1 think He knows what He was talking about, said, think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets but I come to fulfill, and verily, verily I say unto you that one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until it is all fulfilled. Now that's what He came to do is to fulfill it.
Now under the Dispensation of the Law all of these carnal ordinances, every one, makes no difference which one you wanna talk about, was under the Dispensation of the Law. Now I don't mean to confuse the Abrahamic Dispensation, which was 430 years before the law. I don't wanna confuse and mess that up with the law; neither do I wanna mess up the Dispensation of Grace with the law. I am saying physical water baptism under the Dispensation of the Law, when John the Baptist come along or the forerunner of Christ come along and baptized, he baptized under the Dispensation of the Law in physical literal water. Is that understood? If I wanted to be polytechnical about it, I would say, 'why did God send John the Baptist to baptize in literal water?' You understand? I have to know how the purpose of God is carried out. I have to understand how it's carried out in all of these dispensations and ages; in other words I have to understand the purpose of God from alpha to omega or from cosmogony to eschatology. Now those words just means beginning and end. I have to understand. Now God declared the end from the beginning, see, He said all of my counsel shall stand, Isaiah 46:9 and 10. No, it's not necessary to read it.
And then I wanna tell you this, it won't be no necessity of Doctor Hogan nor Doctor Kinley nor nobody else getting up contending for literal, physical things in this present dispensation. They're not here. You understand? This is another dispensation.
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Then I wanna say this, and I would like for this to be made real good and clear: Paul was made a minister of the Gentiles. Yes I know he preached to the Jew. Jews first. Nobody can show in this, in, in this Bible, I'm talking about, I'm not talking about the book I wrote, I'm talking about the Bible, see, where God ever sent, at any time, before or since, under the Dispensation of the Law or under the Dispensation of the Grace, never sent nobody, not one apostle to baptize no Gentile in literal water. Not in the Book. Yes, I know Peter down in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized in literal water. I know all of that. I'm not here to dispute with what's written down there in the Book. I'm here to discuss my understanding and his understanding of what is written in the Book.
Now before the law, I'm talking about Abraham, Melchizedek, Isaac and Jacob. See? I wanna get them both dispensations in. God had made a promise to Abraham that in his seed he would bless all the families of the Earth. It is Paul's contention, I have to cut these things up and make 'em short, Christ is the Seed of Abraham. Do you understand that? And it is by faith in Jesus Christ, not only to the Jews but also to the Gentiles, it's by faith in Jesus Christ that a man is saved. That is the promise. God promised to save if you believe in Jesus Christ. That was a promise. Do you understand that? Christ was crucified out there on Golgotha. And it is by your faith and Him being the Seed of Abraham that God said He would save, so therefore we're saved by faith through grace, the grace of God. That's how we're saved, not by no carnal...
And let me tell you this, while I'm here, that we might get the record straight. The Children of Israel under the Dispensation of the Law, all of 'em I'm talking about, and Moses lead 'em out of the land of Egypt, they were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. The 10th chapter of first Corinthians Paul said, Moreover brethren I would not that you should be ignorant, how all of our fathers was baptized in the cloud and in the sea. Now is that straight? Now Moses was sent to do that, bring the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. And then after they went out of the land of Egypt, I have to cut it short, I don't wanna go through the desert and all around that, just wanna get to Mount Sinai. And from Mount Sinai God spoke and gave the commandments. Is that clear? That was on the sixth day of June, same day as Pentecost. That was God speaking from Mount Sinai. It was God speaking from Mount Zion on the Day of Pentecost. How? Speaking through those apostles. That's what that was.
Now God doesn't want.., which thing I had to learn, see, it isn't your head and your carnal conceptions, your ideas, and traditions and opinions. It's not that. Do you understand? And I... right there I'd like to say this so somebody didn't know something about my back drop. I was a Holiness preacher in the Church of God for about fifteen years, had water baptism debate, taught it just like my opponent did. Believed it like he believes it. Taught it like he taught it. You see what I mean? Now listen, you asked that we stay strictly on the subject. Is that right? Literal, physical water baptism is it essential in this present dispensation? I say no. Well now if you're gonna stay on water baptism then don't mix it up, which he has already done. Since he, when he was on the floor, when he was speaking here,
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
but it's apparent that he didn't know that that was what he was doing.
I'll tell you something about it. The fifth chapter of Ephesians, the third chapter of Titus and the fifth verse. I want 'em read.
Dr. Harris: Husbands love your wives
Dr. Kinley: Husbands love your wives
Dr. Harris: Even as Christ also loved the church
Dr. Kinley: Even as Christ also loved the church
Dr. Harris: And gave himself for it
Dr. Kinley: And gave himself for it
Dr. Harris: That He might sanctify and cleanse it
Dr. Kinley: That He might sanctify and cleanse it
Dr. Harris: With the washing of water
Dr. Kinley: With the washing of water
Dr. Harris: By the Word
Dr. Kinley: By the Word. So what? Christ is the Word of God. He did wash the disciples feet in the 13th chapter of Saint John, but He didn't do no baptizing out there in Aenon, or neither did He baptize any in the River Jordan. He doesn't. His disciples did, but He didn't. Now don't you try to tell me that Paul is talking about here in the fifth chapter of Ephesians, Christ baptized somebody by saying husbands love your wife even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the water by the Word. Yes He washed 'em, the disciples. That was under the Dispensation of the Law, if you please. Now if He come to fulfill, as my worthy opponent says, He did. But I say to you, why did He wash the disciples feet there? He's fulfilling all that's written in the Law and in the prophets. Then Moses that wrote the law, took the commandment from God in obedience, have to cut it short, brought Aaron, Nadab and Abihu to the door of the tabernacle and washed them in physical water and put on the linen garments before they could be ministers in the tabernacle or in the sanctuary. Now if Christ is gonna fulfill that, then He'll have to wash the disciples feet, I mean in water. Physical water. Literal water. You see that now?
Now then Moses, I have to go back here to get the continuity of thought together. If Moses was sent to bring all of Israel out of Egypt because God had promised to deliver'em out of Egypt. And all of Israel was baptized in the cloud and in the sea unto Moses. I'm talking about how the purpose comes down now. See, John the Baptist has got to come and do the same things, baptizing in physical, literal water. He was sent to prepare the way of the Lord. That's what he was sent for. That was under the Dispensation of the Law that He was baptized in literal water.
What's the significance of it in the first place, the baptism of repentance. See? What's the significance of the baptism of repentance? Get the point? John's baptizing in literal, physical water under the Dispensation of the Law, before Christ died, if you please.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
If you go back in the fifth chapter of Romans and come down from the 14th, on down to.., just read right on, forget the chapters and the verses. Just read right on, cause there wasn't any breaks in the text, wasn't even in as you have in your Bible ___, the subject sometimes is divided from the predicate. For example, suppose I quote the first verse of the sixth chapter, said, what shall we say then. 'What are you talking about?' That's what it says there. Now if I wanna know what he's talking about I have to go up and get the subject. Go on back in the fifth chapter and get the subject. Death reigned from Adam to Moses after the similitude of Adam's transgression, even over them that had not sinned, is that right, for he was a figure, a figure of him that was to come; in other words, He was the second Adam. In the first Adam all died, so in the, in the second Adam all be made alive. And anything that happened to the first Adam, do you understand, in the second, everybody, future generations and everybody else, nobody wants to argue about that. Then anything that happened to the second Adam, who was a figure of Him that was to come. Do you understand? One is the degenerator, the other is a regenerator. You see what I mean? Yes everybody, so say the apostle, and I'm talking about the Apostle Paul...
I remember one time we were discussing and somebody got up in the back in the Church over on Adam Street and said, I said this, but I said then, I did not say it. See.
Now let's finish up this, let's finish up this Ephesians business first. Not Ephesians, but
Dr. Harris: Titus 3:5.
Dr. Kinley: Ti... No, I'm talking about the fifth chapter of Ephesians. Husbands love your wives. Go on down and read it on down and get the last two verses.
Dr. Harris: That He might present it to himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing
Dr. Kinley: Uh huh.
Dr. Harris: But that it should be holy and without blemish
Dr. Kinley: Um hum.
Dr. Harris: So ought men to love their wives as their own body.
Dr. Kinley: Uh huh.
Dr. Harris: He that loveth his wife, loveth himself
Dr. Kinley: Um hum.
Dr. Harris: for no man ever yet hateth his own flesh
Dr. Kinley:.Um hum.
Dr. Kinley: but nourishes it and cherishes it even as the Lord the Church.
Dr. Kinley: Alright, just stop right there for a minute. Let me make a comment. Now I used to teach this, like this, that Paul was talking about a man and his wife. Get it? Just like my opponent said, he called this the washing, water, you understand, by the Word. It was the washing of water by the Word, under the Dispensation of the Law, He did wash them disciples. And let me tell you this,
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
right when He was washing or when they were washed with the water by the Word, the Word said to them, you don't believe it I'll read, see, you know not what I do now but you shall know hereafter. Isn't that right? It was under the Dispensation of the Law before they got the Holy Ghost that they didn't know what it was all about, but after they got the Holy Ghost, they knew that it was the washing of regeneration by the Holy Ghost, and that's what Paul is talking about.
Someone: That's right, that's right.
Dr. Kinley: And that was not physical, literal water out there, understand, baptism,
I mean that type of thing, cause Christ didn't baptize. The third chapter of Saint
John said that His disciples bap.., but Jesus didn't baptize none of 'em. That right?
Someone: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now I want you to read the last two verses.
Dr. Harris: This is a great mystery.
Dr. Kinley: This is a GREEAAATTT mystery. You see it? This is a great mystery. Read.
Dr. Harris: But I speak concern
Dr. Kinley: Well, I'm not talking about what you think, but I speak concerning...
Dr. Harris: Christ and the church
Dr. Kinley: Christ and the Church. You see that now? Christ and the Church. Now you can't find nothing nowhere in the Bible where Christ ever baptized anybody. That's just... now that's what we're discussing. Do you see what I mean? So don't go over there and try to read that, see, and say that's a physical, literal water baptism ministered by Christ. Don't say that. Now I want you to get Titus 3:5.
Dr. Harris: Not by works of righteousness
Dr. Kinley: Listen, let me tell you. It is not by works of righteousness, not that at all. Now you're reading the Bible, aren't you?
Dr. Harris: Yes sir.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen you don't need to go and get in no water and think that's some work of righteousness that you would do, cause it's not by works of righteousness. Would you please read.
Dr. Harris: Not by works of righteousness which we have done
Dr. Kinley: Which we have done. Now if you think going out there getting baptized is a work of righteousness and it's necessary for you to do it, it's not by that.
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Someone: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Which we have done or gonna do. But what is it?
Dr. Harris: But according to His mercy
Dr. Kinley: But according to His mercy. Read.
Dr. Harris: He saved us
Dr. Kinley: He saved us. You understand? Do you see that now? How's that?
Dr. Harris: By the washing of regeneration
Dr. Kinley: Now you see you're right back at the same thing. And He's talking about that in Ephesians. By the washing of regeneration. And what?
Dr. Kinley: And the renewing of the Holy Ghost
Dr. Kinley: And the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Now that's how that is. See. You see that now? Now I want you to read somewhere else. So don't go messing that up with water baptism out there like, like that. Now I want you to get John 3:5, since my opponent read it.
Dr. Harris: Jesus answered, verily
Dr. Kinley: Jesus answered, talking to Nicodemus now.
Dr. Harris: Verily, verily I say unto thee
Dr. Kinley: Verily, verily I say unto you
Dr. Harris: Except a man be born of water and of the spirit
Dr. Kinley: Except a man be born of water and of the spirit
Dr. Harris: He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God
Dr. Kinley: He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Now Nicodemus is one of the Sanhedrin council. He was a scribe, was a smart man in the law and also in the testimony, is that right, or in the prophets. And he went to see Jesus by night. Well I'm not gonna have anything to say about him going at night. Of course there was a reason for it. See? Now this is under the Dispensation of the Law, see, wherein that John was baptizing and Jesus told him, 'now you go on out, you just might as well go on out, get baptized just like all.., I mean in physical, literal water,'and not your high standard. You see? 'John was sent to baptize in physical literal water, Nicodemus, now except you be baptized in that water you will never see the Kingdom of God.' That was under the Dispensation of the Law. He was talking to Nicodemus. And Nicodemus had to submit just like all the rest of 'em that John baptized. Now do you see that?
Now I want you to see and I want you to understand two important things. Number one, when Moses come out of Egypt brought them, see brought them, they was Israelites, out, I want you to know that not one Gentile was baptized in that cloud and in that sea as were the Children of Israel. I want you to know that. Well if that's so, then John the Baptist can't baptize no Gentiles. Now do you see that? Now that's nothing else but just repeating the thing over and over and over, God's purpose carried out, see. None were baptized unto Moses, see, then there
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wasn't any baptized. Now that's a fact, that's a Bible fact. See? Now look, listen, Pharaoh and his host pursued the Children of Israel. For the sake of explanation let's say they was Gentiles, and they went into the Red Sea. Now I said Pharaoh and his host went into the Red Sea. What happened? Just got drownded and you know it. Is that, is that, is that alright?
Someone: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: Oh, it'll just have to be, see. They died there. Now do you see what happened to them. Now any time a Gentile, I don't care what dispensation, I told you that any time a Gentile set his foot in any water, physical, literal water at any time, see, that's out of harmony, you see.
Now when my worthy opponent did and said, Philip went down to Samaria and preached Christ to those people. Is that right? That's the way it is. That's the way he said it. Philip did go down and preach Christ to those people. A lot of 'em were healed down there from diseases and things. And Philip did have the Holy Ghost, cause Philip was a deacon. And they told him up at Jerusalem when the argument or the complaint come up about the widows, about the widows and orphans being neglected in the daily administrations, apostles said, 'why should we stop preaching the Word to serve tables, look ye out seven men full of the Holy Ghost.' Why seven? There ain't but seven days in a week. So it's one for each day, (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) in whom we may appoint over this business, see. Now if we're not gonna come down here.., that's the apostles leave preaching the Word to serve tables, physical food, we sure ain't gonna stop here and go down there and fool with dipping 3,000 folks in the water. The food is just as physical as the water, and the water's just as physical as the food. You see?
Now none of 'em down at Samaria never got the Holy Ghost till Peter and John went down there. And when Peter and John went down there they receiv.., ain't that right, the Book said not a one of them received the Holy Ghost in Samaria. I wonder why? When Philip was down there. Now you look straight at the purpose of God and what Jesus said, and then you could tell the difference, you can tell why didn't none of 'em down there receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John went down there. Jesus told them, you go back and tarry at Jerusalem until you receive the Holy Ghost. Is that right? And then you, you eleven men shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, not the deacons, not Philip. You shall be witnesses unto me. See? That's why they didn't receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John went down. They were His witnesses. He appeared to them after He raised from the dead. And Philip.., nothing said about Philip being present. You see what I mean? You see that now?
And Philip went down, let's get this preaching in the name straight too, or baptizing in the name straight. That seems to be where we're all messed up at. I wanna go right back, see I don't want nothing else, only just what, what Doctor Hogan used, see. I want John 7:38. Jesus talking, not me. Please read.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
Dr. Harris: He that believeth on me
Dr. Kinley: Now Jesus said this, he that believeth on me. Now I didn't say that, Peter didn't say it, Paul didn't say it, Jesus Christ said it. He that believeth on me.
Dr. Harris: As the scripture hath said
Dr. Kinley: Now as the scripture had said. Let us get that straight too, see, because it's apparent that we don't even know what scripture is in it's true divine etymological sense of the word. Scriptures was written before Jesus was born. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of Apostles, the epistles, see, in the true divine sense of the word, they are not scriptures. In the lexicological meaning of the word.., get a dictionary, Webster's, or your newspaper, anything, that's script in that sense. Do you understand? Now when Jesus was speaking to His disciples, said, he that believeth on me as the scripture has said, He means according to the Law and to the prophecy. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and epistles, they were not written at the time He spake, and He spoke it under the Dispensation of the Law. Said, now you that believe on me as the scripture has said, not no tradition, not as Paul said, not as Peter said, but as the scriptures back there have said, because Peter and Paul wasn't, they wasn't in them, has no mention. Is that right? Now do you see through what I'm talking about? I like to clarify these things as I go. This is not a Bible reading contest. See? It's a understanding, that's the purpose for this debate. He that believeth on me as the scriptures had said.
Dr. Harris: Out of his belly
Dr. Kinley: Out of his belly
Dr. Harris: Shall flow rivers
Dr. Kinley: Shall flow rivers
Dr. Harris: Of living water
Dr. Kinley: Of living water. Now listen, when them boys believed on Jesus Christ as the scripture had said. Please read.
Dr. Harris: But this spake He
Dr. Kinley: But this spake He
Dr. Harris: Of the spirit
Dr. Kinley: Of the spirit
Dr. Harris: Which they that believe on Him should receive
Dr. Kinley: Which they that believe on Him should receive and they received that on the Day of Pentecost. Read please.
Dr. Harris: For the Holy Ghost was not yet
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Dr. Kinley: Now what He said was that the Holy Ghost wasn't yet given. You see what I mean? And every last one of 'em that received the Holy Ghost, and spoke on the Day of Pentecost there was just rivers of living water running that day. And better than 3,000 people were baptized in it. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) And thereafter the Lord added to the church daily, such as should be saved. That right? Now my opponent went back in Matthew, Mark, Luke and expressed the great commission and said that Jesus said, Matthew 28:19, 1 want you to read it.
Dr. Harris: Go ye therefore
Dr. Kinley: Go ye therefore
Dr. Harris: And teach all nations
Dr. Kinley: And teach all nations
Dr. Harris: Baptizing
Dr. Kia[g)L Wait a minute. Wait a minute. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Hold on there, see. That's Gentiles too. See that now? Go ye therefore and teach, teach all nations. Is that right? Would you please read.
Dr. Harris: Baptizing them
Dr. Kinley: Baptizing them
Dr. Harris: In the name of the Father
Dr. Kinley: No, don't, don't put it like that. Baptizing'em in the water. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Now listen, do you mean to tell me that God, that Paul said, was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Now do you mean to stand up and tell me if that's the truth then He ain't got sense enough to tell 'em to go and baptize in water and the name if that's what He meant. You don't see nothing about no water there. Go and baptize in the name. Now he's.... my worthy opponent said to baptize 'em in the name means to baptize 'em in water by the authority of Jesus Christ. it's not in the book. (BELL RINGS)
IDMR timekeeper, Fred Allen: Five minutes.
Dr. Kinley: Alright. In Luke, same commission, that remission of sin should be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem. Is that right?
Someone: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Acts of Apostles, 4:12 says this, Peter said, there is no other name given under Heaven whereby man can be saved, saving the name of Jesus Christ. And when you preach with the Holy Ghost in the name, you are baptizing them people in the name, not in the water.
There's one more thing I wanna call your attention to. Get down there in the second chapter of Colossians. See, and I just wanna tighten this down real quick. I want, I want my opponent to pull the lid off the thing. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
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Dr. Harris: Beware. Second Colossians, 8th verse
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Dr. Harris: Beware if any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit
Dr. Kinley: Now you watch out lest any man spoil you through philosophy in being deceived.
Reader: After the traditions of men
Dr. Kinley: Now, you see, after the traditions of men. This is a man made thing baptizing somebody in water . See. Somebody said, 'well listen here, didn't Paul baptize, what about the 18th chapter of Acts of Apostles, didn't Paul baptize the household of Stephanas and Gaius in physical, literal water.' Yes he did. Then turned right around and wrote them people a letter, the first chapter of Corinthians, and said this, that Christ didn't send him to baptize but to preach the Gospel. Now you tell me, you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ was so ignorant until He sent out eleven men to baptize in water and here's one He didn't send to do that. Sent him to baptize in the name, just like all the rest of 'em. That right?
And again I wanna say this, since we're talking about the 1 Oth chapter of Acts of Apostles, where Peter commanded 'em to be baptized. That right? But listen here the Holy Ghost poured out the... I mean God poured out the Holy Ghost on them people before Peter got'em in the water. I wonder why? You see.
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: but Peter withdrew his statement, in the llth chapter of Acts of Apostles, said then remembered I the word of the Lord. You see what I mean? Oh it's there, you can't fix it. And then I wanna tell you this. Now Peter went down... and God sent Peter down there to Cornelius' house. And they were the first Gentiles that was brought in. God is bringing in Gentiles, reason why He poured that Holy Ghost out on 'em, you understand, you understand, without dipping 'em in water, cause that's the way He made the promise to Abraham. Now He's bringing I em in by faith. And therefore He poured out the Holy Ghost while Peter was just speaking. You see? You see it?
Now was that, was God mistaken about it or was Peter. See. He's a witness, because John did.., that was even baptize the Jews, John's Baptism before they got the Holy Ghost. The Gentiles.
And I wanna tell you this in the 1 lth chapter of Romans and the 17th verse and also in the 15th chapter of Saint John, Jesus said, I am the true vine, every branch that bears not fruit in me, He said, His Father took it away. Isn't that right? We can't argue with the fact that was under the Dispensation of the Law when you go back (BELL RINGS) and the Gentiles were, the Jews were broken off and the Gentiles, the 11th chapter and the 17th verse, were grafted in. How'd you do that? By faith. (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Pastor Hogan: ___ I am told that Henry Clifford Kinley, DD, PhD. I wonder where'd he get his degree. (PASTOR HOGAN AND AUDIENCE LAUGH) Anyone that issue to him a degree, as far off as he is, is certainly off himself. I think the man is just as illiterate as one who hasn't graduated from high school, (AUDIENCE IS STILL LAUGHING) and call hisself DD, PhD. PhD simply means a Doctor of Philosophy, but it certainly doesn't mean that connected with him, it must mean post hole digger. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) As I ___ to refer to men, I don't make any such claim. I wouldn't make a claim like that and get up and murder the King's English as he does, and as void of understanding as he is, to say that he's a DD, a Doctor of Divinity and a PhD, a Doctor of Philosophy. Out of all of it, all that I've heard, this is the worst.
Now just before he sit down he said that.., he's started to recall Colossians 2:8, and he said, I want my opponent to pull the lid off the thing. Brother you're so right, I'm gonna pull the lid off of what you said. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Gonna pull it off. Yes sir. You're gonna get your wish, because I'm gonna pull it off.
Someone: He's right.
Pastor Hogan: Now you said that God poured out the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost
on those Gentiles before they were baptized. You say, 'I wonder why?' Well, I’m gonna tell you why. I thought you knew the Bible. Get me the 15th chapter of Romans and the 16th verse. Let's find out why. Get me the 15th chapter of Acts. And I want you to start at the seventh verse and read it. And the Bible will tell you why. If you knew your Bible you wouldn't wonder why. I don't wonder why God poured it out on them. It was to convince those Jews that the Gentiles accepted, it was that the Jews might accept the Gentiles. That's why Peter said, can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost ___. Poured it out on 'em, so the Gentiles.., so the Jews would baptize the Gentiles. That is why. Read it. The 15th chapter of Romans, 16th verse.
Reader: That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles
Pastor Hogan: That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ
Reader: To the Gentiles
Pastor Hogan: To the Gentiles
Reader: Ministering the gospel of God
Pastor Hogan: Ministering the gospel
Reader: That the offering up
Pastor Hogan: That the offering
Reader: Up
Pastor Hogan: Up of the Gentiles
Reader: Might be acceptable
Pastor Hogan: Might be acceptable
Reader and Pastor Hogan together: Being sanctified by the Holy Ghost
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Pastor Hogan: That is why it's poured out on'em, so they'd accept'em at that time. Here he don't know straight up, when it comes to the Bible. A PhD. I, I, I, I thought we were gonna have a debate here, when I read that. And I told the son.., and some of 'em I said, 'why we have a man with a DD and a PhD degree.' Come to find out, he's a minnow, like all the rest of 'em around here that I been... Now I wanna go over something he, he said here that he didn't wanna bother the things that I didn't say. He just wanna bother with the things that I said. Did I go back talking about Israelites baptized in the Red Sea? Well then he, he, he must have wanted to say things that I hadn't said, because I didn't mention the Israelites being baptized in the Red Sea. He said, 'not a Gentile there.' Said, 'John baptized here, and not a Gentile...' Nobody said he baptized Gentiles. The commission baptism was given after John's baptism. After Christ died. John's baptism had ended and the commission baptism... Jesus told the disciples, Matthew 28:19, go teach all nations baptizing them and he admits that that included Gentiles. That is given after John's baptism had ended. I told you we were talking about the commission baptism. Why are we arguing about John's baptism? I didn't bring you anything about John's baptism, and upholding John's baptism. I know John's baptism ended at the cross, as a ___. Follow some man that is ___ the scripture, didn't know John's baptism had passed and baptized the people under John's baptism. They were baptized again. Go over there and get it. 18th chapter, the 24th verse. And we'll start.
Reader: And a certain Jew named Apollos
Pastor Hogan: Certain Jew named Apollos
Reader: Born in Alexandria an eloquent man
Pastor Hogan: Born in Alexandria an eloquent man
Reader: Mighty in the scriptures
Pastor Hocian: Mighty in the scriptures
Reader: Came to Ephesus
Pastor Hogan: Came to Ephesus
Reader: This man was instructed in the way of the Lord
Pastor Hogan: Man is instructed in the way of the Lord
Reader: Being fervent in the spirit he spoke
Pastor Hogan: Being fervent in the spirit
Reader: He spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord
Pastor Hogan: Spoke and taught diligent all the things of the Lord
Reader: Knowing the baptism...
Pastor Hogan: Knowing only the baptism of John. He didn't know enough. He know only the bap.., he didn't know John's baptism had passed. Around here wasting time on John's baptism, I haven't tried to uphold John's baptism. That wasn't my affirmative. I said the commissioned baptism that was given after Christ died. Made it plain. What's the matter with the man? Trying to tell you, 'Do you understand?' He doesn't understand himself. And how could you understand with all that conglomeration he's advancing here. Alright. But what happened?
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Reader: And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue
Pastor Hogan: Began to speak boldly in the synagogue
Reader: Whom when Aquilla and Priscilla had heard
Pastor Hogan: When Aquilla and Priscilla heard
Reader: They took him unto them
Pastor Hogan: They took him unto them
Reader: And expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Pastor Hogan: And expounded unto him the way of God more perfect. But he had baptized the people. What had happened to him? Go over to 19th chapter.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PORTION) And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and finding certain disciples. He said unto them, Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? And they said unto him, we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Pastor Hogan: Hold it. We haven't so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. You know why? They were baptized unto John's baptism. And Jesus had commanded the discip.. to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Ghost. And when they said, we have not so much as heard it whether there be any Holy Ghost. Told you, there was nothing wrong with the baptism, because Christ had commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the next verse, you -, under what then were you baptized? What did they say?
Reader: And they said unto John's baptism
Pastor Hogan: And they said unto John's baptism
Reader: Then said Paul
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES THE UNDERLINED PORTION OUT.) Then said Paul, John's verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people, that they should (ADDED BY PASTOR HOGAN: COME OUT AND BE OB..) believe on him which should come after him, that is., on Christ Jesus. When they heard this,
Reader: They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
Pastor Hogan: When they heard this. When they heard this. Went back and did it right. And that's what Doctor Kinley's gonna have to do or to Heaven he'll never go.
Someone: Amen.
Pastor Hogan: He'll have to go back ___ ___. They had to go back, they was baptized how?
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Reader: In the name of the Lord Jesus
Pastor Hogan: In the name of the Lord Jesus. And he knows, I know, and you know, well we all know that in the name means by the authority. And he denies that is a reflection on him as a minister. When he said they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus that is by the authority of the Lord Jesus. Jesus told men to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit.
TAPE 2, SIDE A:
Pastor Hogan: Water baptism, I say repeatedly, I say repeatedly that water baptism is the only baptism commanded. Why didn't he let it alone, why didn't he let it alone? Because he knew to let it . That's why he left it alone. He knew he couldn't name another baptism. Therefore when they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, they'd baptize by the authority. This wasn't Holy Ghost baptism either because they hadn't got it yet. Paul taught'em and baptized 'em and laid his hands on 'em that they received the Holy Ghost. Read on.
Reader: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them Pastor Hogan: Alright. What happened?
Reader: The Holy Ghost came on them
Pastor Hogan: Alright. They received a baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. That's the baptism Christ commanded himself to administer which was water baptism. And Doctor Kinley knows it. The trouble with him.., and let me tell you so plain, 1, I'm, I'm sure, I know, I know at least one of his followers know better. Someone: He might.
Pastor Hogan: I know at least one whether that'll do or not, because he's been exposed to it. He know better. I'll tell you, I drop my head in shame. If I was every one of 'em, I'd leave here with my head in sh.., dropped in shame if that's all I had to defend what I believed in and accepted. If that's who you got to defend.
Alright. We're discussing the Holy Ghost baptism, because after they were baptized again, Paul laid his hands on 'em, and the Holy Ghost was given. I say again that the Holy Spirit has never been administered in a miraculous form without the presence of an apostle. That's why I know he hasn't been baptized with it. That's why I know you haven't had a, he doesn't have a miraculous gift of it, because it came through the laying on the apostles' hands. I challenge you to point out in one time one gift by the Holy Spirit who's administered in an miraculous way without the presence of an apostle. He couldn't do it if his very life depended upon it.
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Alright. Come on down. He said that, that Christ didn't baptize anyone. What he needs to point out where Christ baptized. Said I couldn't prove that Christ baptized anyone. I never said Christ did these things. Christ commissioned His disciples to do it. Christ told men to do it, that's my argument. They baptized by Christ's authority. Christ sent men to do it, and the only baptism man can administer is water. And the only baptism, ladies and gentlemen, by decree, that commanded is water, the only one that, command.
In Ephesians 5. Ephesians 5. In trying to get some of that.., there his later arguments, we'll get to the third part of it just a little later on. He went to Ephesians 5 and had the gentleman to read it. He started with the 25th verse, husbands love your wife, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. But he wanted.., he wanted him to read on, he wanted them to read on. It says the washing of water by the word. That's what the Bible said. Isn't that right?
Audience: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: Alright. But he wanted to read on and went on reading about a husband and his wife. And his said, 'I was in the Holiness Church for so many years, and that he said that, 'I, I used to believe like Doctor Hogan.' Well, I believe he'd have been better off, if you'd stayed in (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) the Holiness Church. You believe according to the Bible. I think this is called the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research? Is that right?
Someone: Right.
Pastor Hogan: Looks like doctor haven't researched enough. He need to go back and search some more, because according to his argument here, he hasn't searched enough. But he said that Ephesians 5:25 was in the Dispensation of the Law. Did you hear? Didn't you... he said?
Someone: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: Under the Dispensation of the Law. Yes. Ephesians 2. 1 want you to start at the 1 1 th verse were the apostle Paul was talking and he spoke of the Jews who were the Gentile, ah, yeah, that were were called the, the Gentiles rather were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands. He says at that time.
Reader: You were without Christ
Pastor Hogan: You were without Christ
Reader: Being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel
Pastor Hogan: Being aliens. Not now but at that time, you are aliens of the commonwealth of Israel
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) And strangers from the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus.
Pastor Hogan: But now, not back under the Dispensation of the Law, but now and forever time. Now in Christ Jesus,
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. UNDERLINED PORTIONS WERE LEFT OUT BY PASTOR HOGAN.) Ye who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace who had made both one,
Reader: and hath broken down the middle wall of partition
Pastor Hogan: And what?
Reader: Who hath made both one
Pastor Hogan: And did what?
Reader: And hath broken down the middle wall of partition
Pastor Hogan: It couldn't have been to the Dispensation of the Law because Christ had broken down that middle wall of partition that stood between Jew and Gentiles and having
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT UNDERLINED PORTION.) abolished in his flesh the enmity even the law of commandments contained in ordinances to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
Pastor Hogan: When Christ died on the cross, he broke down that middle wall of partition, if you please, and therefore they were reconciled into the one body. This was not under the Dispensation of the Law but under grace.
Audience:Right.
Pastor Hogan: You tell that to those who, who will listen to you and not God. Because the middle wall of partition has been abolished. He said now. Now is an adverb of time. And those very people. Why, ladies and gentlemen, the apostle told them that there is one baptism. And to those very people that he pointed out that the, the law had been abolished, why, why sir, he told 'em that one baptism was water, in Ephesians 5 and 25. But I have all the arguments. Titus 3:5. Go over there and get him, I learned when I was a boy, if I wanna catch a rabbit, follow him to his hole and smoke him out. I'm going right where he went to. (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) Titus 3:5.
Reader: Not by works of righteousness
Pastor Hogan: Listen, oh, he starts on down. Not by works of righteousness.
Reader: Which we've done
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3) DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Pastor Hogan: Which we've done. Even said, 'don't get in the water, that's a work of righteousness.' So he said not works of righteousness which you done.
Reader: But according to his mercy he saved us
Pastor Hogan: But accord.., that's what he said, according to His mercy, He saved us.
Reader: By the washing of regeneration
Pastor Hogan: And., wait a minute, you know he paused there. Yeah, he's driving his point. He sure did. He sure did a job there when he said, He saved us, according to His mercy He saved us. He's called ___ ___. And you know I wasn't gonna let him get away with it, and he told the fellow to read on and he ruined hisself. Alright. By the washing of regeneration,
Reader: And renewing of the Holy Ghost
Pastor Hogan: Renewing of the Holy Ghost. So the washing of this generation was the Holy Ghost because the renewing of the Holy Ghost came after the washing of water. But you see here's where he missed it. He started at the fifth verse when he should have started at the fourth verse and he'd had got an understanding of what he's talking about. Actually that's the trouble with these fellas, they'll just get the part they want and leave the other part alone. Now we're gonna start, we're gonna start the fourth verse and this'll tell you what he's talking about when he said not by works of righteousness. This isn't Hogan, this is God's work. Read the fourth verse.
Reader: But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward men appeared
Pastor Hogan: After that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared. How?
Reader: Not by works of righteousness which we have done
Pastor Hogan: Then Christ didn't come by works of righteousness which we have done, by no goodness on man's part that caused Christ to come, but God's love and kindness were responsible for it.
Audience: Right, right.
Pastor Hogan: What he's talking about your life talking about. 'Not by works of right.., so won't get in some water.' Well I declare, isn't that something, coming from a PhD. (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) After the kindness and the love of God, our Savior toward man appeared not by works of righteousness which we've done, but according to His mercy He saved us and told you how: by the washing of regeneration. That's a washing, ladies and gentlemen, that accomplished all, it is connected with regeneration. Jesus said, John 3 and 5, except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And you know what he did? I told you, he got it, told you he'd read it. Went to John 7, the seventh chapter of John and read the 38th verse. John 7 and 38. Now read that, go back
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there. Go.
Reader: He that believeth on me
Pastor Hogan: He that believeth on me
Reader: As the scripture has said
Pastor Hogan: Now he said that the scripture has said and he went far enough to say, 'well any writing is scripture, the newspaper's scripture.' Do you remember that? Well, bless your heart, that didn't say as scripture has said, it said as the.., just go there and read that.
Reader: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: Read it.
Reader: He that believeth on me as the scriptures hath said
Pastor Hocian: Why the is an.., that's an article, this isn't pointing to the newspaper. There now, they're talking about the scriptures. Wanna a definite article. That's definite. The scriptures are sacred, and out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER.) But this spake he of the Spirit, (PASTOR HOGAN ADDED: FOR THE SPIRIT IS NOT) which. they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Pastor Hogan: And yet he goes to work to show that is given on the Day of Pentecost. Certainly it was. I agree with him a hundred percent. Holy Ghost's a leader, when it come to that teaching and baptizing, when it comes, you said of Luke said, the remission of sin to be preached in the name. That did not start before the Day of Pentecost for they had to wait until the Spirit came to guide. And the Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. Isn't that right? And so he said, Doc Kinley, talking about how they teach, 'then there's when out of their belly flow rivers living waters and over 3,000 baptized in those rivers.' (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)
Ladies and gentlemen, he spoke of the Holy Spirit like his believers would receive. And when the Holy Spirit came, they did preach the gospel of Christ, they spake as the Spirit gave the utterance. What? After they had heard the preaching which drove convictions their heart, they wanted to know what to do. Peter told 'em, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission. Remission means the canceling, the blotting out or the doing away with your sins. In the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So they were not baptized in the Holy Ghost, which he styled as rivers. They were commanded to be baptized, which was water baptism because it was commanded and they were to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, which he styled as rivers, in which they were baptized, they received the gift of the Holy Ghost after repenting and being baptized. That is the teaching, ladies and gentlemen.
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Alright. So many things, I would like to mention, I have so many... several arguments that I'd like to advance, but I'd wanna call attention to a few more of these points, of these things rather that he advanced. He said that the two.., there were two dispensational missions, and Christ came to fulfill the law. Certainly He did. Christ came to fulfill the law in the fifth chapter of the book of Matthew. And when the things fulfilled, that's the end of it. Certainly. The end of the, end of the old Mosaic Law. It ended at the cross. Christ came to fulfill it and He did fulfill it. When the thing's fulfilled, He said that's the end of it. No wonder we read in the 10th chapter of Romans, the fourth verse, for Christ is the end of law for righteousness.
Now listen Doctor Kinley had an appointment to meet me here tonight in this discussion. You know why he's here? He's fulfilling that promise. Well after that promise has been fulfilled, are you looking for him here any more? No, that ended. Well when Christ came, He came to fulfill the Law and He did it, for in the 17th chapter of John and the fourth verse, He said, I've finished the work that Thou gavest me to do. He finished, so the law ended when He died upon the cross, but this baptism under discussion was commanded after He died on the cross. After He arose, He appeared to the disciples and told 'em to go teach and baptize. And then, I'm gonna have to hit it here and there, because so many... and I'm trying to get to a few rebuttal argument.
He called attention to Paul, admitted Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius. And he also baptized the household of Stephan,
Someone: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: but he proceeded to, to show that Paul was not supposed to do what he did, because Paul said in the first chapter of first Corinthians, for Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel. But the thing that I wanted to get over to you is the fact here are the Corinthians divided old men, one group said, 'I'm of Paul,' another, 'I'm of Apollos,' another, 'I'm of Cephas.' He said is Christ divided? Whhhyyy he says, was Paul
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER.) crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? Read.
Reader: I thank God
Pastor Hogan: I thank God
Reader: that I baptized none of you.
Pastor Hogan: I baptized nobody
Reader: I thank God that I baptized none of you.
Pastor Hogan: I thank God that I didn't do any baptizing.
Reader: I thank God that I baptized none of you.
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Pastor Hogan: That.., see Paul was glad he didn't baptize any of those people that
were divided old men, 'now if I'd had baptized, you'd been a sinner enough to say it that I baptized in my own name. I'm glad I didn't baptize; however I did baptize some of you, I baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas; I don't know whether I baptized any other. I'm so glad I didn't, anyone big enough to be baptized over me and I'm glad I had nothing to do with your baptism.' He didn't say I didn't baptize anybody. 'But I thank God I baptized none of you.'
Audience: Right, Right.
Pastor Hogan: That's in the Bible. Read a little farther.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) Lest any man should say that I had baptized in my own name.
Pastor Hogan: Read.
Reader: And I also baptized the household of Stephanas,
Pastor Hogan: Baptized also the household of Stephan
Reader: Besides I know not whither I baptized any other
Pastor Hogan: Besides know not I baptized any other. Read on.
Reader: For Christ sent me not to baptize
Pastor Hogan: For Christ sent me not to baptize,
Reader: but to preach the gospel
Pastor Hogan: But to preach the gospel. Hold it there, hold that there. Christ sent me not to, do you mean to tell me that Paul went beyond the authority of Christ. He baptized Crispus and Gaius. He baptized the household of Stephanas. And the 8th cha.., 18th chapter of the Book of Acts the 18th verse 4 , he's mentioning the Corinthians, heard and believed and were baptized. Now do you mean to tell me Paul went by the... was beyond the authority of the Lord? Certainly not.
Surely a man with a PhD degree knows that this is a litrical, an litrical expression (BELL RINGS) Oh, omits words that are necessary ___ (AUDIENCE LAUGHS). Alright, it's out. Just like Jesus said in John 12 and 42, he that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me.5 Now do you mean to tell me, believed on Him that didn't believe on Him at the same time? No, he who believeth on Me, believeth not on me, only.., but on Him that sent me also. The Lord sent me not to preach the Gospel only.., ah to baptize, but to preach the gospel also. It's a literal expression or you make Paul a transgressor.
______________________
4 This verse says: And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea; for he had a vow.
5 John 12:44.
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Alright, oh my, my, my, my, my. I forget that it's 30 minutes, that 30 minutes's about gone. Just a few rebuttal arguments. He made so many blunders here that I hardly know which one to get him under first. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) I don't know.
Alright. For the rebuttal argument. Why he came on to talking about, if you please, Colossians 2 and 14, beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy or vain deceit after the rudiments of the world, after tradition of men and not after Christ. That's true. You'll have to watch him because Christ taught baptism. Christ commanded baptism.
And then you remember he went to the third chapter of the Book of John and was there to discuss Nicodemus, being a ruler of the Jews, and that.., what have it; but remember Christ told Nicodemus, except a man, that's any man, is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God, being born into delivery or coming forth, you cannot be born of it without being first conceived therein, and so he's born of water according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Christ born.., rather born of water and of the Spirit was ordered by Christ before He died but it did not come of force until after He died. Hebrews 9 and 15 through 18, certainly a will is the thing stipulated and the things stipulated therein must be made while the testator liveth, and it comes of force after he dea.., after he dies, so where Christ, it came of force after He died. And Christ Himself said, Heaven and earth shall pass away but My words will not pass away.
I challenge him, even though Christ was under the law to point out the things that Christ said that passed away. Christ pointed out while under the law that it is said of them of old, of old, thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate your enemy, but I say... And you will find that in that fifth chapter. It is said of them of old, an eye for eye and tooth for tooth, but I say, showing that He, ladies and gentlemen, are His orders are superior to the law of Moses and what Christ said stood. If you doubt it, if you have proof that it didn't. What are the proofs? That what Christ said has never passed away. And what He commanded in the third chapter of John, that came of force after Christ died.
So, so many things that I won't have the time to get to. I would like to call attention so many things that is brethren..., it is, that it is by faith, needing a saviour.
James 2 says, the 17th verse, even so faith, if it has no works, it is dead, being alone.
The 24th verse, you see then, how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. This man's saying it's by faith. Sure, we're saved by faith, but that faith has to exercise itself in obeying God.
Galatians 3 and 26 says, while we're all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
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FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
That faith was leading to obey the Gospel of the Son of God. Has he obeyed Christ? He'll submit to baptism or in the Kingdom he'll never go. I would like to enlarge on that, but as you know, time is about up. He said God spoke from Sinai on the sixth day, on the sixth and seventh day of June. We are, we're not talking about when God spoke to Moses. We are not discussing God speaking on Sinai. We are speak, we're discussing water baptism by the authority of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. Water baptism of a penitent believer in water. That's what we are discussing.
Alright. And then he said, 'um huh, one more point I wanted to get,' that he brought out ___ ___ ___ ___. I wanted to get to it. Ah, he said a point. (BELL RINGS TWICE) (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)
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3) DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Dr. Kinley: Now I'd just like to say in my rebuttal remarks that Doctor Hogan didn't understand nothing I said when I was on this floor. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) He heard what I said but he didn't understand none of it.
Now let me show you. When John was baptizing he was preparing the way of the Lord. I didn't have time to bring out everything that I'd like to say. And I'm sure he didn't. That makes us even there. But I am telling you that when John was baptizing, he was baptizing them in water into Jesus Christ's death that they might be in the likeness of His resurrection. That's the sixth chapter of Romans and read right straight on down, and ignore the way some starts with chapters and the verse coming into the sixth verse, and you'll find out that it's not only that, it runs clear on back to Adam, and all down through the dispensations and ages. You understand? You all said in the, in the, in the sixth chapter, said, what shall we say then. 'We who? Who are you talking about?' We the Jew. Don't you know that many as of us are baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into His death? Is that right? Now Romans, see, are Gentiles. Now if you read right down to the 11th verse, same chapter, 11th verse of the, of the sixth chapter of Romans. Paul said, like wise. Maybe you better read.
Dr. Harris: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves
Dr. Kinley: No, go and get baptized,
Reader: To be dead indeed unto sin
Dr. Kinley: That's right. To be dead indeed unto him.
Reader: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord
Dr. Kinley: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now here's something else I wanna call your attention to. That we.., I said before and I'm repeating it again. I said, in Adam all died. And I said that Christ was the second Adam. When Adam died out there in the Garden or when he sinned out there, death was pronounced upon all men. Now you can't fix that. Everything died in him; when Christ was nailed to the cross out there, everything dead. When Christ raised from the dead everything raised from the dead that believed on Him. Now we talked about baptism, the household of Gaius and Stephanas. Is that right? Is that right? Now I want you to know that they were Jews. No record, no where none of the people Paul baptized was Gentiles. None of 'em. Then just like he wrote the letter to Corinth, he told 'em that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel, Preach it how? In the name, not in the water. Baptize in the name, not in water. And to baptize in the name don't mean in the water. And I tried to tell you a while ago if that's what Christ meant, him being God incarnate, He ought to at least have sense enough to say what He means.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Then I said something else that apparently he didn't understand, he went back and
quoted the fifth chapter of Ephesians. He said I said that that was under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not say that. You got the recording machines there. You play 'em back over again. I said that Jesus Christ washed the disciples feet under the law. Jesus Christ was the Word of God fulfilling the law. Therefore He had to wash the disciples feet under the Dispensation of the Law. And when He was washing Peter's feet and them, Peter said, 'you shall never wash my feet.' Said, 'if I don't wash 'em, you'll have no part with Me.' Is that right? And I'm telling you that was the washing of the water by the Word that Paul is talking about in the fifth chapter of Ephesians. You understand?
Now there's the two different dispensations. Now in the Dispensation of Grace, which dispensation now that we're living in, it's preaching Christ, preaching the Word. You understand? Doing N 0 T H I N G, nothing literal, it's by the hearing of faith.
Now we went down to Cornelius house, and argued that one out too, didn't we? See. Now also going back to Ephesians five... or four, five. One Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Right. Now he says it's water. I say no. And I'd like for you to know this, the Ephesians are Gentiles, and to them there wasn't but one baptism. No water. Water baptism is one baptism, Holy Ghost baptism is another baptism. Gentile never was baptized in water. So to them there wasn't but one Lord, one faith, and just as.., one baptism of the Holy Ghost. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) That's right. Now unto them, the Gentile.
Now let's get the Jews. I want you to get to the sixth chapter of Hebrews, and the first verse. Read on down. Now listen while you're reading, please recognize the fact that Hebrews are Jews. Read.
Dr. Harris: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ
Dr. Kinley: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ.
Dr. Harris: Let us go on unto perfection
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Just a moment now that's new subject matte r.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen I'm talking about water baptism.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: But use the scripture you presented, Brother Hogan can't answer.
Dr. Kinley: Well, were we discussing water baptism?
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: But that scripture hasn't been introduced in this debate now. If so, play your recording back, and you'll see.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Pastor Hogan: That's the doctrine of, of, of, of baptism, repentance from dead works. Now if we're gonna discuss dead works I'd be glad to take you on on it, but for you going to laying up something that's not what.., get an answer, why that's what you ___. I can give another to work on and I'll bring in something new.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Tomorrow night now you'll get the privilege if you wanna bring it, bring that ___.
Dr. Kinley: Oh, you don't want me to refer to... you want me to have him read the scriptures, is that it? I can make any remark I want to make, is that it?
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Now you don't ___ ___ ___.
Dr. Kinley: You mean to tell me now that I have been up here as long as...
(DOCTOR KINLEY IS INTERRUPTED PERHAPS BY THE MODERATOR. THERE ARE SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO DISTINGUISH WHO IS SAYING WHAT.)
Man: Quiet. Take him right out.
Someone else: ___ It's about up.
Burbank Mitchell: ___ time has been stopped.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: That's what I'm saying, I'm not saying time is up, that's all the time I have.
Pastor Hogan: Let him ramble, when he's bringing in new matter that I can't answer.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Brother Hogan, sir. If you made the proposition pertaining to that he's talking about is new. Then he shouldn't be allowed to bring it in.
Pastor Hogan: Okay. The moderator ___.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: ___ ___ moderate this debate. But I think if you wanna present that scripture, it's alright, do it tomorrow night, then Brother Hogan will have a chance to answer your... But as of now that scripture has not been introduced tonight. That's a new scripture. And you shouldn't present it unless he has a chance to answer it. Now, that's what's stated in the beginning, and that's your opinion. So lose. Hebrews six has not been introduced here tonight, has it?
Dr. Kinley: No, that's correct.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Alright then.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Dr. Kinley: I ___.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Well, don't introduce...
Dr. Kinley: Wait just, now just a minute though, but water baptism is what we are discussing. You understand? Now that's what we're discussing. We did introduce that and made comment on it.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Do it...
Dr. Kinley: And listen. Here's something else. Now he referred to a whole lotta scriptures that I never made no references to.
Several People: You sure had the opportunity. (AUDIENCE CLAPS)
Dr. Kinley: Sure, I had an opportunity. (SOMEONE IS LAUGHING)
Someone: You'll be.., just a moment, you got an opportunity to answer for those... Is he coming up behind you now to answer what you're gonna say?
Dr. Kinley: No.
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: Of course not. Well, that's why you shouldn't present this until letting him present new material and he doesn't have a chance to rebuttal. And that's according to the rules of debate. If you, if you know about debating, then you should know that sir.
Pastor Hogan: You can answer anything I said now.
Someone:You can ask anything he says right now.
Fred Allen: ___ ___ the same way.
Dr. Kinley: Take it the same way?
Fred Allen: You check him out tomorrow night.
Someone: That's the way it goes.
Dr. Kinley: Okay, we'll do that.
(THE TAPE STOPS AND BEGINS WITH THE FOLLOWING)
Dr. Kinley: Don't know what dispensation they belong to. See. He wants you to spell N A M E, name, with W A T E R. Baptizing in the name, by the authority of these by putting somebody in water. And I'm telling you water is out, it's out for the Jew and it's also out for the Gentile. In this dispensation it's preaching the Gospel, preaching that Christ was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Now if we have faith and confidence in Him as being the regenerator, as Adam was the degenerator. Have faith then in His death, His burial, His baptism, His circumcision, His everything, then you can be saved.
Now you can get in all the water you want to, and I have baptized a whole lotta people, and said the ceremonies over 'em. I have did that. Said this, 'in obedience to the command of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I baptize this our beloved brother in the name of, of the Father, God, and in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, and in the name of the Holy Ghost.' Now I didn't know what that was, when I was doing it. And down in the water I put him. Now I say baptize in the name, didn't say in the water. See, the remission of sins is to be preached in the name, to baptize in the name, don't mean putting nobody in the water. Now that's my argument. And listen, let me tell you this: all carnal ord... and water baptism, literal water baptism is a carnal ordinance. I wonder if they'd mind if I just read this down in the second chapter of Colossians where he was talking about, about them ordinances. Second chapter. Read it please.
Dr. Harris: Beware lest any man spoil you
Dr. Kinley: No, I want down there were Paul talks about those bodies, them ordinances, all of them...
Dr. Harris: Wherefore if you be dead with Christ
Dr. Kinley: Now wherefore if you... Now these are Gentiles he's talking to. Wherefore if you be dead with Christ.
Dr. Harris: From the rudiments of the world
Dr. Kinley: From the rudiments. Do you know what rudiments are? Of the world. See. If ye be dead, then read.
Dr. Harris: Why as though living in the world
Dr. Kinley: Why? You answer the question. Why as though living in the world
Dr. Harris: Are you subject to ordinances
Dr. Kinley: Are you subject to ordinances? Any of 'em? Pick out any of 'em you want to. Water, just anything you want to. Why are you subject to it? Now do you see that? What you are supposed to do and what they were supposed to do was to preach the Word. Paul told Timothy to preach the Word. Preach Christ, Preach Christ and what? That He is your circumcision. He is your everything. Don't make no difference what it is. He's all of that. And if you believe, and that's, then that's what it is.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Then I want to say this. This is in another reference, see but it has to do with the same thing. That's Galatians, the third chapter of Galatians. See, Cornelius and them was the first Gentiles to come in. And God, 1, I'll put the question like this to call your attention, why did God baptize them with the Holy Ghost before they got in the water? And I told you that He.., God was bringing 'em in according to the way He made the promise to Abraham. That was why. Understand?
And to just bring the story right down through, anybody can see that wants to. In the fifth chapter of Romans they just baptized all, everybody, Jews and Gentiles into Christ's death, through the baptism, through the circumcision, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You understand? Now listen, if water, physical, literal water and the physical, literal blood of bulls, goats and heifers under the Dispensation of the Law, if that didn't purify a person and his conscience, physical water ain't gonna do it now. You see that? Now in Galatians Paul says this. This only would I learn of you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith. Now you can teach him a lesson. When Peter, talking to Galatians, Galatians are Gentiles. You understand? See that now? If Galatians are Gentiles and Paul's asking them how did you get in, did you receive it by works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Peter went down to Cornelius house he spake and while he was yet speaking they received the Holy Ghost without any water baptism. Now to baptize a man after he received the Holy Ghost is contrary to all scripture. Why? Because you're, you're crucifying and burying a man that's already alive. (SOMEONE LAUGHS) And on the Day of Pentecost, them that received the Holy Ghost, they wasn't supposed to be baptized any more. Why? Cause they'd already been baptized in John's baptism.
Then I want to tell you this too. You can't baptize nobody into His death as of now. Why? Because he's risen from the dead.
Someone: I hear you___.
Dr. Kinley: It's by faith in His death, and in His burial, and in His resurrection. See. That's how it is. Now all of the epistles is just like that. I did bring up the 15th chapter of Saint John. Jesus said, every branch, I'm the true vine, My Father is the husbandman, see, every branch that didn't bear fruit in Him.., he said, He took it away. Is that right? Now listen, get the jest of what I'm saying. When them Jews were broken off, branches now not roots. Now it was introduced but I never commended on it. See. The 1 lth chapter of Romans and the 17th verse. I did mention, I never commented on it. The Apostle Paul said this that Gentiles was grafted in among the branches, not buried down there in the roots as John baptized. Now following that point around, twisting hisself up in all of these epistles. Grafted in by faith. Abraham believed on God, and God promised to bless the Gentiles by faith. The Jews, they did under the Dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of the law, all them physical things was types and shadows of what was to come in this present dispensation. Do you understand? The law was a schoolmaster to bring us up to Christ. Now we're up to Him, and He's being preached that in His name, you understand, that all, both Jews and Gentiles, be saved by faith through grace. Why he says it is the free gift of God, not merited
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
or earned.
You see. Yes I know that those things I've been talking about... And listen for the biggest part all Christendoom makes just that same error, mistake. Roman Catholics and what have you. Now it is not the Levite. This is the Bible. I said this was 33 years.., and is was not the first debate I have ever had on 'em too. Been debating it for 33 years. And every last one of 'em.., I had five ministers at a time. Won them debates. What's the trouble? Don't know what you're reading when you're reading it. My Bible reads just like his... (AUDIENCE RESPONSES IN A LOUD UNDERTOW) There ain't know difference in it. This is the Dispensation of Grace. The unmerited, not earned, and you can't baptize nobody into His death now, cause He's not dead. That is why John had to baptize 'em before He died. The Gentiles by faith in Jesus Christ, seven years after Pentecost or in AD 40. And Peter was the first one to preach to 'em, Cornelius's household. And they got the Holy Ghost without it.
Now somebody.., then he turned around and told faith without works is dead. Said James said that. Faith without the works of the law. See, now maybe he's.., doesn't think I know what I'm talking about there. I'm talking about water baptism. Now, faith without works is dead. Jesus said this to the Jews under the Dispensation of the Law, said this is the work: that you believe on Him that send Me. Now that's not dead. See. And by the works of the law, and all them carnal ordinances was under the law, by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His, in His sight.
I wish you'd ring that bell. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) See I'm just loafing around with you now. (AUDIENCE CONTINUES TO LAUGH) See what I mean. Because what I have said to you is the way the Bible reads, and all that stuff that Brother Hogan told you about messing up and mixing up between them dispensations, and talking about said about his feet. I said Jesus washed feet under the Dispensation of the Law. And I spoke about the works of righteousness... What Paul is talking Christ washed feet under the Dispensation of the Law, and it come in effect under this Dispensation- washing of regeneration. Now there's got to be a generation, that means coming in; then there's a degeneration, that means going out. And the regeneration means coming back. Do you see what I'm talking about. When God created Adam, he was generated. When Adam sinned, right back where he went fr.., come from; degeneration, see. Now when Christ died, He went to heaven or to the grave. Do you understand? Where Adam was appointed to go. Do you understand? To redeem them. Is that right? Then when Christ raised from the dead, so then Matthew 27:52, many of the saints that slept in the dust of the Earth rose and went on into Jerusalem.
See, now, 1, 1, I noticed before when Doctor Hogan was down there preaching down at the tent. And everybody that was with me noticed it and knew he didn't know what he was talking about in the dispensation and the ages, understood that he didn't. Said a whole lotta things, same as he did here tonight. See, I told you to begin with I don't have no dispute with what's in the Bible. And yet I know there's interpolations and mistranslation in it. (AUDIENCE RESPONSES UM, UM)
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
Do you see what I mean? I know that they are in there.
And let me tell you something else. If I thought that I was wrong about it, it would... listen at me now, it would be my prayer, sincere, earnest prayer to lose this debate. I'd wanna lose it. Do you understand? If I was wrong, cause nobody profits by my lie, as Paul said. Do you understand? And I am telling you, there's no point, I'm ain't interested in winning no debate nohow. What I'm interested in doing is preaching the gospel. Don't care a thing about no debate. And if anything else I'm wrong about I hope, trust, and pray, and ask you to pray for me. That oughta be good enough.
Someone: Alright. Amen.
Dr. Kinley: That God correct me and chastise me. You see. And I think that that should be my opponent's attitude and disposition about it. And I definitely say you cannot find water baptism... There's a whole lotta other things I could say. I'll just put it like this: you can't find no carnal ordinance in this dispensation. None. Now he just read to you, if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why as though living in the world are you yet subject to ordinances? Didn't point out no specific one either. (Bell Rings) Thank You
Someone: You got five minutes. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
Dr. Kinley: I'm just ___ ___. There is one that cometh after Me that is mightier than I, that, in whose shoes I'm not worthy to bear.., He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. We ain't got to the fire yet. And I hope you never get to it like that, see, but we have got to the Holy Ghost. And it is Christ, he's the one that baptized with the Holy Ghost, not me, not Peter, but I do wish you'd just wake up for a change and see that it was the Holy Ghost that was speaking through Peter when they were being baptized in the name. They believed and received the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38. Repent everyone of you and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I read all of them things. I know almost the Bible by heart. What Peter was preaching there to them people, preaching Christ or the Holy Ghost was speaking through him. Said, repent everyone of you and be baptized in the name. Now they are refusing to accept the name of Jesus Christ, you see, refused to. And Peter was baptizing in the name. Every creature. When they saw that they was wrong and that they had crucified the Prince of Glory, they were pricked in their hearts and they heard them words. See. Then what Peter said to them about it came of effect that is to say it took effect; that is to say then they were baptized in the name. And then they did receive the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost that same day. God promised to multiply the seed of Abraham as the sands of the sea and as the stars of heaven; that's what God promised to do.
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FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL
And for eleven men to run around here and baptize all them folks in literal water, don't even make sense. And Paul was made a minister of the Gentiles. Gentiles mean the rest of the world, except the Jew. I know he preached to the Jews. (BELL RINGS) Just that one man by himself he could have baptized all them folks out there, not in no literal water. Thank you very much.
Church of Christ moderator, Brother Perkins: I want to say that I'm very sorry that we had to interrupt the Doctor tonight but... some what disappointed, I know that the man was his supposed standing should know better than to introduce new matter, and is supposed to speak of course to continue to do so... we haven't been to correct him on it. I hope that the next discussion that will be again with this group, that they won't conduct themselves like that. Tomorrow night we are supposed to have another discussion over at the other place. The Park Manor is that right?
Someone: That's right.
Someone: New Park Manor
Church of Christ moderator, Brother Perkins: New Park Manor?
Someone: 706 Western, South Western
Church of Christ moderator, Brother Perkins: 706
Someone: 607 South Western
Church of Christ moderator, Brother Perkins: 607 South Western
Someone: South Western Avenue?
Church of Christ moderator, Brother Perkins: South Western Avenue, 607 South Western Avenue. 607 South Western Avenue, room 4.
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SECOND NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
TAPE 2, SIDE B:
Church of Christ Moderator, Brother Perkins: ___ ___ we have some members, some members of the audience from last evening, and the conduct ___ characteristic of the ___ ___ ___ ___ this evening. I feel that we can consider ourselves blessed with it. I'm sure it will be the same. And we'll ___ that this is a religious discussion and it ___ be administered to ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ men. They are able men ___ ___. I don't want to take too much of your time now, just like to ___ ___ ___ moderator, Doctor Kinley will be the next the next speaker.
SECOND NIGHT: Dr. KINLEY'S SPEECH
Dr. Kinley: First of all I would like to say that I am indeed happy and glad to be here with you, along the lines described in our discussion by the moderator. That is to say that I do not believe that in this present Dispensation of Grace, I would like to date that too, so that you'll know and think I did, I'm talking about from the Day of Pentecost, the second chapter of Acts of Apostles. From that day.., now if I would go down into sacred time and then translate it over into our time according to the Gregorian calendar, it would be the sixth day of June AD 33 at about nine o'clock in the morning. Now I said that to pinpoint, so that you would know what I meant when I said in this present Dispensation of Grace. Now this is a school, a school of learning, not a church. That would almost force me into defining what a school and what the Church is, said that every interval, I have to stop and define these words.
Now the word Church as it is used in your Bible, as said to be expressed by the Apostle Paul, which if you would say church to him, he wouldn't even know what you was talking about, but the word church means congregation or assembly. That is the correct meaning of it. A school means a place where you go to, to learn or to get some understanding. That too is people congregated together to learn. So then the difference between one and the other is but a very little difference.
Now that draws me out on saying this, in the 17th chapter of Acts of Apostle, God said through the Apostle Paul, I hope I'm understood too, that God dwells not in temples made by hands, but He dwells in our hearts by faith; and you are the temple of God and you were not made by hands. I had to go through all that in order to get around on the subject. And the reason for that is I want you to know that in taking it in modern language and understanding, as we understand it, that I too belong to the Church of Christ; and I am not referring to this building in or on Figueroa or any other street, because as I understand it to be, it is a spiritual body, not a physical. And that it is by one Spirit, as expressed by the Apostle Paul in the 12th chapter of first Corinthians and about the 13th verse. It is by one Spirit that you are baptized into the one body or baptized into Christ. By one Spirit whether you be Jews or Gentiles, it makes no difference. I would like for that to be understood.
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SECOND NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH
Now the reason why I'm so particular about those remarks is because last night many things I said, which was a repetition of what was in the Book, the Bible I'm talking about, was misconstrued, misunderstood, misrepresented, misinterpreted. My expressions that come out of the Book, which was nothing but repeating what was in the Book, even down my intellectual capacity which was not involved in our discussion. That's my diction and my ability to speak profoundly and academic, which I'd like for you to know that I have taught men with the degrees of Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Philosophy, PhDs. And PhD don't mean post hole diggers either, (AUDIENCE RESPONDS) as my worthy opponent said last night. I didn't define it to mean no such... Then let us talk about the DD, which is said to be on that book that I written. Since we got a PhD degree, since we have a Doctor of Divinity degree, let's let God define this one this time, them DDs, the 56th chapter of Isaiah and the ninth and 10th verse, oh He'll define it. Read.
Reader: All ye beasts of the field
Dr. Kinley: All ye beasts of the field
Reader: Come to devour
Dr. Kinley: Come to devour
Reader: Yea, all ye beasts in the forest
Dr. Kinley: Read.
Dr. Kinley: His watchmen are blind
Reader: They are all ignorant
Dr. Kinley: They are all ignorant
Reader: They are all dumb dogs
Dr. Kinley: That's the DD. Dumb dogs. Now God defined it, not me. Read on.
Reader: They cannot bark
Dr. Kinley: They can't bark or they can't preach. Read.
Reader: Sleeping
Dr. Kinley: Sleeping, read on.
Reader: Lying down
Dr. Kinley: Lying down
Reader: Loving to slumber
Dr. Kinley: Loving to slumber
Reader: Yea, they are greedy dogs
Dr. Kinley: Yea, they are greedy dogs
Reader: Which can never have enough
Dr. Kinley: Which can never have enough
Reader: And they are shepherds
Dr. Kinley: They are shepherds
Reader: That cannot understand
Dr. Kinley: That cannot understand
Reader: They all look to their own way
Dr. Kinley: They all look to God's way
Reader: Their own way
Dr. Kinley: Please correct me. Their own way. Read please.
Reader: Every one for his gain
Dr. Kinley: Every one for his gain
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Reader: From his quarter
Dr. Kinley: From his quarter. I am the Dean here, I am not looking for no gain. I never have been paid one cent at no time. And I have been preaching for 33 years this same thing I'm, we're discussing tonight. But I would like for you to know this: I could have been in the year of 1935 a millionaire and I refused. And since I been in California, come here in 1958 in August, I was called over here in Hollywood and some of my companions who are now seated in this audience, in this audience were present with me and the multimillionaires that backed up Billy Graham offered to back me up with their money, just like they did Billy Graham. I refused it. And as I stand here before you now, I do not have a penny; in the bank, in my pockets, at home, if you wanna call it that. 'Well, what are you talking about? I thought you were supposed to be discussing water baptism in the dispensations?' Get it? 'You are off of the subject.' Well if I'm off of the subject, as I just expressed, post hole diggers was off of the subject last night.
Then I wanted to make a reference last night to the sixth chapter of Hebrews and I was asked not to introduce it because it was off of the subject. Now with me I thought that was stupid last night and I still think it's stupid tonight for you to say that it was off of the subject because it had to do with water baptism and that was the subject, not the epistle.
And what he was talking about in that epistle is on the subject, so since I didn't have an opportunity to express it last night I'm going to hurry from here on. I'm going to express it tonight. And then I'm going back and read out of the Bible about this water ba.., I mean physical, literal, natural water baptism in this present dispensation, the Dispensation of Grace. I said then and I say now that it is not essential.
And I further made the statement last night, and I do demand tonight that anybody, not only in this audience, anybody in the world, I've said it a multiplicity of times. Take your Bible and show me, don't want but just one person that is a Gentile that the apostles, any one of 'em, baptized in physical, literal water in this present dispensation of time. Show it to me in the Book.
Now we went back and quoted Matthew 28:19, where Jesus said after He raised from the dead, or after His resurrection, go ye therefore into all the world baptizing every creature, listen, every creature said he because it means Jews and Gentiles, that is if you classify a Gentile as a creature, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and lo I am with you alway even until the end of the world. Should have been translated age, the word world.
There is something else I want you to notice about that same thing that apparently was overlooked. He told the apostles; you go, you go and baptize in the name. Now down at Cornelius' house in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles when God poured out the Holy Ghost before those people got in the water, and I mean they're Gentiles and the first of the Gentiles, it is said there in the 10th chapter and last verse that Peter said or that Peter commanded or demanded them to be
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baptized in water. Now listen Christ did not send them to appoint somebody else to do the job of baptizing in water, He sent them to do it, not to appoint somebody else to do it. Now if you wanna get all polytechnical, careful and particular, if that's what you want to do, which I admire, I like that, then in the first chapter of Acts of the Apostles, Luke said that Jesus said, John truly baptized with water, I said that was under the Dispensation of the Law. And Jesus said after He resurrected, He talked to those apostles just before He ascended, said, John truly baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
We have found out by careful research in the scriptures that it was ten days after His ascension that the Holy Ghost was poured out. And Cornelius and his household or no Gentiles prior to that had been baptized in water.
Now that makes me almost have to step backwards and get that Ethiopian eunuch and I said that he was a Jew from Ethiopia. And the theologians question whether he was or not a Jew from Ethiopia. Then in the 15th chapter of the Acts of Apostles, Peter said, suppose you read it, that the Gentiles first heard the Word of the Lord at his mouth. Read it please.
Dr. Harris: And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Dr. Harris: Men and brethren
Dr. Kinley: Men and Brethren
Dr. Harris: You know how that a good while ago
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum.
Dr. Harris: God made choice among us
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum.
Dr. Harris: That the Gentiles by my mouth
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum
Dr. Harris: Should hear the word of the gospel, and believe
Dr. Kinley: That's correct.
Dr. Harris: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum
Dr. Harris: Giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us
Dr. Kinley: As He did unto us
Dr. Harris: And put no difference
Dr. Kinley: And put no difference
Dr. Harris: Between us and them
Dr. Kinley: Between them
Dr. Harris: Purifying their hearts by faith
Dr. Kinley: Purifying their hearts by faith.
One other cardinal point I want noticed that all of the apostles and elders were gathered together in that congregation or assembly there in Acts of Apostles where he is reading. And I would like for you to realize this too that the Holy Ghost was present. Please read that. In the 15th chapter there.
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Dr. Harris: (DOCTOR HARRIS PAUSES) Here, and God. No, that's not it.
Someone: 28.
Dr. Kinley: 28th verse.
Dr. Harris: 28
Dr. Kinley: Now see, we got to be so particular about this chapter and verse business. Alright read on.
Dr. Harris: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost
Dr. Kinley: For it seemed good
Dr. Harris: And to us
Dr. Kinley: To the Holy Ghost and to us
Dr. Harris: To lay upon them
Dr. Kinley: To lay upon them, the Gentiles
Dr. Harris: No greater burden than these necessary things
Dr. Kinley: No greater burden than these necessary things; right in that, what are them necessary things. I want it read.
Dr. Harris: That you abstain from meats
Dr. Kinley: That you abstain from meats
Dr. Harris: Offered to idols
Dr. Kinley: Offered to idols
Dr. Harris: And from blood
Dr. Kinley: And from blood
Dr. Harris: And from things strangled
Dr. Kinley: And from things strangled
Dr. Harris: And from fornication
Dr. Kinley: And from fornication
Dr. Harris: From which if you keep yourselves
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum
Dr. Harris: You shall do well
Dr. Kinley: You shall do well. Well now what did I have that read for? All of 'em was there and they never said a thing about 'em being baptized in water. All of the elders was there.
I'd like to point out something else that he just read, that we speak quite frequently about. Paul said, all things was lawful unto him, but all things are not expedient. Paul taught that circumcision.., and that's what that audience or congregation was together up there for to discuss it because the carnal minded Jews was contending that the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. So, therefore, the Apostles and the brethren come together for to discuss that matter. Is that right? And you just heard what the man read out of the Book. Now I'm telling you Paul shaved his head, the vow of the Nazarite, to go to
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Jerusalem to be there on the Day of Pentecost. I'm not talking about Acts 2:4 there, that day, I mean in the years after. I say he circumcised Timothy and then taught that circumcision nor uncircumcision availeth nothing. But he did, but he didn't teach that it availed anything. That is not all he did. He ate meat that was sacrificed to idols and you just heard it read there, to satisfy his hunger and his appetite with no conscience whatsoever or with no respect to the idols. He ate it, the sacrifice, things, meat that was sacrificed to idols to satisfy his hunger. And he said if eating meat offend my brother I'll eat no more meat while the world stands. Now somebody comes along with an erroneous concept that Paul meant that he wouldn't eat any flesh of an animal or anything like that and he was a vegetarian, that's what he meant. I said, no. And Paul did eat meat after that. And also said, anything that's sold in the shambles, eat and don't ask no questions for conscience sake, eat anything that's set before you. Now look at the things that we have got there, but he did not teach in the form of a doctrine.
Now I brought all of that in to show you that all of those things were literal, they were physical-, in order to get down to this when Paul preached everywhere to the Jews and to the Gentiles, he preached in the name of Jesus Christ. And when he was speaking and preaching in the name, I'm telling you that both Jews and Gentiles were being baptized in the name, please not in the water. And you cannot read in Matthew 28:19 or in Mark the 16th chapter or in Luke where Jesus said anything to them about baptizing them in water after He risen from the dead. I said last night that the reason for
(PAUSE IN THE TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: as Paul told the Corinthians, Ephesians, all of the Gentiles and the Jews in preaching the name, said he was baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. That I would like for you to know that that is my understanding of what Jesus meant when He said: go and baptize them in the name and He said nothing about the water in this present dispensation.
In the fifth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans, he said there in that fifth chapter, went clear back to Adam and then come down to Moses in that fifth chapter, talking about Adam and the Jews and the baptism of repentance. And then when we got in the sixth chapter, he said, what shall we say then? What shall we who? The Jews, because the Holy Spirit was given unto them first and they went to the Gentiles themselves, being sent of God, of course. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer there in? Know ye not, or don't you know, that as many of us, us who? The Jews that were baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into His death. Therefore, we should be, I'm just giving it to you in a way you can understand, we should be like Him in His resurrection. Now the 11th verse, where he's making his appeal to the Romans, who are Gentiles, in the 11th verse, please
read it.
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Dr. Harris: Likewise
Dr. Kinley: Likewise, now just like that. Read.
Dr. Harris: Reckon ye also
Dr. Kinley: Now don't, no sir, don't start out, ___ do that, just likewise reckon yourselves.
Dr. Harris: To be dead indeed unto sin
Dr. Kinley: To be dead indeed unto sin.
Dr. Harris: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord
Dr. Kinley: But alive through Jesus Christ- Now that wasn't understood last night.
Here I come again in the 11th chapter of Hebrews Paul's talking about.., now I'm after that likewise reckon yourselves. No, don't do it but reckon yourselves. Paul said Abraham offered up Isaac his only son. He didn't say that he was going to do it, he didn't say that, said he offered him up. You know as well as I do when we go back into Genesis and Abraham threw back his arm to put Isaac to death, the angel that stayed his hand. And he got that ram there in the thicket and offered him up. But the thing I'm pointing out to you is this: that Abraham in his mind put Isaac to death. In his mind, he's done counting or reckoning that God was able to raise him from the dead that his seed or posterity would continue on. It was a settled thing in Abraham's mind. And I'm telling you that you must do likewise in your mind as Abraham and as Paul is teaching.
Now I know I don't have time to go into it. Just about bell time.
But I thank God I will like to read it out of the Bible. I'm talking about the second chapter of Colossians beginning with the 13th verse where Paul said that we are circumcised by the circumcision of Christ; and He was circumcised eight days after He was born in the flesh. One - you are buried, Gentiles now, with Him by baptism. Now did you notice the circumcision was made without hands. Now do you mean to tell me that you don't have to take your hand and through 'em on somebody to get them in the water?
Fred Allen: You have five minutes.
Dr. Kinley: I have five minutes. Thanks I'm glad for that five minutes. I'll make the best of it. Do you have it?
Dr. Harris: Yes I do.
Dr. Kinley: Read it please.
Dr. Harris: In whom also you are circumcised
Dr. Kinley: Uh hum
Dr. Harris: with the circumcision made
Dr. Kinley: With the circumcision
Dr. Harris: Made without hands
Dr. Kinley: Made without hands
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Dr. Harris: In putting off the body
Dr. Kinley: In putting off
Dr. Harris: The body of the sins of the flesh
Dr. Kinley: In putting off the sins of the fl.., body of the flesh. Read on.
Dr. Harris: By the circumcision of Christ
Dr. Kinley: Now that's by circumcision of Christ. Now I'd just you to.., real short cut and say this: now when you get Christ, you got the whole thing, you're complete in Him. Colossians 2:9. Read on.
Dr. Harris: Buried with Him in baptism
Dr. Kinley: Buried with Him in baptism
Dr. Harris: Wherein also ye
Dr. Kinley: Wherein the same thing, you are what?
Dr. Harris: Risen with him
Dr. Kinley: Risen with Him. How'd that happen?
Dr. Harris: Through the faith of the operation of God
Dr. Kinley: Through the faith and the operation of God. Nobody punched him in water and took him back out of there. (Dr. KINLEY SLAMS SOMETHING) Now do you see that? Now those are things I was talking about last night. Now skip on down in that same.., and repeat what they had last night.
Dr. Harris: Wherefore
Dr. Kinley: Wherefore
Dr. Harris: If you be dead with
Dr. Kinley: Listen, wherefore is a conjunction. It's an articulation meaning a conjunction: and, but, if, and for, wherefore and wherein, and what have you. See. It joins together two complete thoughts. This and is an articulation or a conjunction, it joins the two thoughts together. Wherefore. Read.
Dr. Harris: If ye be dead with Christ
Dr. Kinley: If ye be dead, listen these Colossians are Gentiles. If ye be dead with Christ. Read on.
Dr. Harris: From the rudiment of the world
Dr. Kinley: From the rudiments of the world, do you know what rudiments are? If you don't you better get a dictionary or something and look 'em up. Said from the rudiments of the world. Read.
Dr. Harris: Why?
Dr. Kinley: Answer. Why?
Dr. Harris: As though living in the world
Dr. Kinley: As though living in the world
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Dr. Harris: Are ye subject to ordinances
Dr. Kinley: Are you subject to ordinances. Why are you subject to ordinances? I wish my worthy opponent would explain that. Why did Jesus and the Apostle Paul contend that they was nailed to the cross? Stop that.
Now my worthy opponent, I don't have but a few minutes, he showed that this so called great commission, going out and baptizing somebody in water. That water is, just as he's talking about it, is just as literal as that that John the Baptist baptized I ‘em in.
But to baptize a man in real true water, he that believeth on me as the scriptures has said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this spake He of the spirit, and John explained it himself, Jesus didn't, said, this spake He of the Holy Ghost for the Holy Ghost was not yet given when Jesus spoke those words. And as that man stood up there on the Day of Pentecost living water was flowing out of their hearts and out of their mouths. You understand. And from that day on, all of the apostles, regardless of which one of them was it, living water was flowing. Wasn't him back there or he'd had been flowing. I think my constituents here say that my time is expired. It is...
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SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH
SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH
Pastor Hogan: Fellow moderators, my worthy opponent, brother and sisters, ladies and gentlemen, and friends my name is RN Hogan and that's reflected ___ ___ ___.
I am before you to deny something that has not been stated or proven, or tested in a way that's proven.
My worthy opponent, even though he's very highly educated, didn't seem to recognize that in affirming a proposition, he's supposed to define, define it so clear that there'd be mis.., no misunderstanding about the proposition involved whatever. Course he didn't do that and he spend a lotta time talking about himself. 'I came to California and those that offered to support him, and all of that and about him being broke. Well he's got a lotta company. Paul said, we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord. If he'd a spent that time that he's talking about himself and preaching himself in affirming the proposition he signed, then I'd have something to work off, but somehow he neglected to do that.
He went to work to define the title DD. He gave God's definition of it and according to him and well in Isaiah, 56 and 10 and them dumb dogs. Well after all the doctor's the one wearing that title, not me. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) So you're a dumb dog. Well, wouldn't you... You messed yourself up, you're the DD. DD is behind your name on your book, not mine. That you would come up, come up here calling me doctor. I'm no doctor, just Brother Hogan, a commoner. So that DD, no, doctor of divinity, don't call me doctor. My opponent says that's dumb dog, and I, I don't claim such things. He carries it behind his name. Thank you for telling me what that meant behind your name. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Henry Clifford Kinley, DD, dumb dog, PhD. Now that's what you told us. Now don't come up here criticizing me for what you do. Thank you.
Now, I'm gonna have to start down and because there's so many things that he said that there's no need to trying to discuss those things because they were irrelevant to the proposition that he signed. So I'm not gonna spend a whole lotta time trying to expose the blunders he made even in those things. He said to me last night, 'don't mess things up.' Well now, (PASTOR HOGAN LAUGHS) well, just makes it that tonight.
Alright. I think his last statement was respecting John 7 and 38. He called attention to John 7 and 38, he that believeth on him as the scriptures said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But, what the Lord said, and it seemed to be satisfaction to him, he simply said, these are the words that on that Day of Pentecost living water was flowing out of their hearts and minds. He said, it's flowing out of their hearts and minds. Doctor Kinley, I'd like you to read that when you come up here. God said, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of.., don't you know the difference between a, a man's belly and his heart and his mind? God said, belly. Read it brother.
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Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME) He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow
Pastor Hogan: out of his heart
Reader: out of his belly
Pastor Hogan: out of his mind
Reader: out of his belly
Pastor Hogan: You already, now God said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Getting up here, trying to do his.., God's word, God didn't.., that Matthew didn't seem to know what to say. My opponent is showing what should have been said.
Now, wanna get to another thing. And here's one thing I wanna get.., I wanna rock on. He said, and went back to it tonight, that no one can baptize into Christ's death for Christ is not dead. He said it last night and then got it, how he got it last night, ___ ___ change. Of course he criticized our, our moderator, because we won't let him bring in a new order. It wasn't that. He didn't get up here and say that you are not to bring in something on the subject as you said here tonight. You said here night that he objected to you bringing in something that pertained to the subject. Well, that is not true. You were attempting to bring in something new, a new argument that I didn't have a chance to answer, that's why he stopped.
But now, we gonna get some.., I'm gonna answer this. Alright. No man can baptize into Christ's death for Christ is not dead. And then he said that that was the reason for John the Baptist baptizing in water before His death. Well, if John baptized before His death, He wasn't buried when John's baptized Him. If you can't baptize in Christ's death or water into Christ's death because Christ is not dead, seeing John baptized before Christ's death, he wasn't baptizing into Christ's death because Christ wasn't dead when John was baptizing. And then he, he, he, he couldn't baptize into Christ's death after John's baptism because he said Christ was dead and Christ was not dead. Well, according to him, there's only one.., three days you could baptize into Christ's death and that is when Christ is in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, because that is the only time He was dead.
Doctor Kinley laid ___ out there, it's not a matter of reflecting on your, on your scholarly ability, but you're reflecting on it. You're the one reflecting on your schol.., scholarly ability.
Paul, Paul said in Romans 6, Know ye not that so many of us, included himself.
Here in the Romans, so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death. And Doctor Kinley, John did not baptize Paul. Paul was baptized under the Dispensation of Grace. Paul was baptized after the Church of our Lord was established on the first Pentecost or after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And Paul said so many of us, so Paul was baptized into His death under the Dispensation of Grace. And he said.., Romans goes on further in this. Doesn't
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he realize that he is saying that no one can be baptized into Christ's death because Christ is not dead, neither was He dead, as we pointed out, when John was baptizing.
But here's the point I want you to get. He said that this was under the Dispensation of the Law. He said it, I have it here, but I'm going to the sixth chapter of Romans to see if it was under the Dispensation of the Law.
TAPE 3, SIDE A:
Pastor Hogan: Now he can see the first few verses and he just... See, the 1 1 th verse of the sixth chapter of Romans, but it is plain he couldn't see the 14th verse? Now he said this was under the Dispensation of the Law. Well, let the Holy Spirit tell us when and where, under what dispensation it was. Read the 14th verse.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For sin shall not have dominion over you
Reader: for ye are not under the law
Pastor Hogan: for ye are not under the law
Reader: but under grace.
Rev. Hogan: 'Oh no, look I'm... no, no, you are under the law.' Doctor Kinley said, this is not under grace, he said, it's under the law, Dispensation of the Law. But Paul said, you're not under the law but under grace. Oh, when you said this was under the law of... under the Dispensation of the Law, you missed it clear ___, Paul said this is the Dispensation of Grace. You're under grace. You missed that, you missed that doctor. You missed it. I call him doctor cause that's what he claims. I don't claim that.
Alright. So out of the way goes that argument. If he goes back to that, if he goes back to it and says that this is under the Dispensation of the Law, then he and the Holy Spirit are into it, for the Holy Spirit said, you're not under the law but under grace. Now, that Bible plainly says you are not under the law but under grace, and you get up here and say that is under the Dispensation of the Law. You get up here and said, water wasn't under grace, Holy Spirit says it was. You said it wasn't, Holy Spirit says it, you were. You said it wasn't, Holy Spirit's saying it was.
Get me Romans 3 and 3. The argument between Doctor Kinley and the Holy Spirit, and the argument's between Doctor Kinley and God. Well the ___ ___ ___, it should be said.., let the Holy Spirit say it. Read it.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid:
Pastor Hogan: God forbid.
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Reader: yea, let God be true,
Pastor Hogan: yea, let God be true,
Reader: but every man a liar;
Pastor Hogan: Thank you. Number one, did he pull your seat out of here ___ ___ ___, face this audience. Read that again, scripture for me. Read that again.
Reader: For what if some did not believe?
Pastor Hogan: What is some did not believe?
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Reader: God forbid:
Pastor Hogan: God forbid.
Reader: Yea, let God be true,
Pastor Hogan: Yea, let God be true
Reader: but every man a liar; as it is written.
Pastor Hogan: Thank you very kindly. Thank you Brother Moore. See, I didn't repeat that. You can't get up here and say I called him a liar. I'm not doing that. I don't do that. I don't call people a liar and I don't do it. Now if he gets up here and say I did, you know better. Thank you very kindly.
And he goes in a corner about what we're saying that and what was done last night. Seemed like he wasn't satisfied with what happened last night. And I could call attention to a lotta things he said last night.
Why he even said that the twelve apostles couldn't have baptized that big number in one day. Now he said it. Listen, you wanna.., have a record, he said it. He said they couldn't have.., I have news for you Doctor Kinley. They could have, they could have done it in a little over half of that. Anyone can baptize one person in one minute. I'll.., if you don't believe it.., obey God, I'll baptize you in a minute. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) If one can do it, if one can do it, twelve can. So if any one of 'em can can baptize one person in one minute. Well, twelve can baptize twelve persons in one minute. At that rate, one per minute, twelve can baptize twelve hundred in a hundred minutes or in an hour and 40 minutes. At the same rate of one per minute, twelve can baptize two thousand or 24 hundred or 2,400 person in 200 minutes, which is three hours and 20 minutes. At the rate of one person per minute, twelve can baptize 400 or 4,800 people in 400 minutes, which is six hours and forty minutes. They can baptize 4,000 and 800 people in six hours and forty minutes. That's a little over a half a day. Reason for the half a day: to get ready and get down to where they're supposed to be baptizing. Have a whole half a day to get ready for the baptizing. Now just about a half a day to get ready for the baptizing. Now, six hours and forty minutes, it can be done, at the rate of one per minute. ___ your figures before you make a wild statement like that.
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Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, on the day of Pentecost, Peter commanded them to be baptized. How dare you say.... why hasn't he refuted it? Ladies and gentlemen, the Holy Spirit baptism that was commanded, the only baptism commanded is water baptism. I challenge you to find another other baptism commanded, doctor. In as much as commanded ___ in water.
Now he said the preaching... they were baptizing 'em when they were preaching. Oh, my, my, my, my. Doctor, Doctor Kinley. Now 1, 1, I'm persuaded that you know better. Now that may be your _, because I believe you are really an honest man. I believe this with all my heart: honest, but honestly mistaken.
Now respecting, respecting this preaching, this preaching of being baptized while you're preaching. Let me call attention to this. If they were baptized or being baptized while the preaching was done, Peter didn't know it, and they didn't know it because they asked what to do? Well now when they asked Peter and them what shall we do, why didn't Peter tell them there was nothing for them to do? Why they had already been baptized? 'We were baptizing you while we were preaching to you.' (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) How ridiculous can the man get? So it's saying that Peter didn't know they'd been baptized. He didn't know it, so.., for had he known it, he would have told'em. When, ladies and gentlemen, he commanded a baptism after he preached to 'em. And baptizing always follows teaching and preaching. -, if you please, under this Dispensation of Grace where one is baptized before he was sorry. - - you'll find the record you will find, ladies and gentlemen, that he was sorry first and baptized as a result of the deed. - of confession.
Alright. Now I'm glad what he said that the Dispensation of Grace started on the Day of Pentecost. I, I'm glad he did that. And.., you know why I'm glad? Because of the fact, the great commission didn't on the Day of Pentecost, so they were baptized, carrying it out to all of the teaching baptized, they began, they began that work on the Day of Pentecost. That's right. Jesus took 'em. You know He spoke that.
Matthew 28:19, Jesus said, Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And they're trying to get you to baptize'em in the name. He said, 'it's not water.' But) don't believe Doctor Kinley, they wouldn't...
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
Now that in the name means by the authority. I believe he's too intelligent a man to deny the fact that in the name means by the authority. I won't believe it till I hear him say it, that in the name doesn't mean by the authority. If it doesn't mean by the authority, you get up here and tell the people that it doesn't mean by the.., in the name doesn't mean by the authority. Anyways he should tell after Jesus had declared all the authority -, He told them, 'to go ye therefore,' because the reason, the reason there that 'I have all authority you go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name, or by My authority, I have it all, and I'm giving
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you the authority to do the job, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. That's why the rest of 'em...
Now he said tonight that Christ took the apostles and told them to do the job, He didn't authorize them to turn it over to anyone else. That's what He said. Bless your heart. In that 28th chapter of Matthew, how Christ gave the great worldwide commandment. He said, go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. Well, what had He commanded them? He commanded them to teach and baptize. And you teach those that you teach to do the same thing.
Audience: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: That's why it's handed on down, that's why Paul even told Timothy the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, He said, lo, I'm with you alway even unto the end of the world. Not age. That's alright. Alright, then I know the disciples did just exactly what Jesus told 'em. How do you know? Get for me Mark. Mark 16:19 and 20. Well, I think it's time I got to say what's over in 19 and 20. All right?
Reader: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them
Pastor Hogan: After the Lord had spoken unto them
Reader: He was received up into heaven
Pastor Hogan: He was received up into heaven
Reader: and sat on the right hand of God.
Pastor Hogan: and sat on the right hand of God.
Reader: And they went forth
Pastor Hogan: And they went forth
Reader: and preached everywhere.
Pastor Hogan: and preached everywhere.
Reader: And the Lord working with them
Pastor Hogan: What?
Reader: the Lord working with them
Pastor Hogan: On what terms did the Lord say He'd work with 'em? In Matthew 28:14 is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you even the end of the world. He's with them, only forgiving, you cannot be forgiven. I dare you. And to prove they cannot, try about the 20th verse and the Lord's working with them, and confirmed the word, the sign follow. It's what the Lord's working with him, they were doing what He told 'em. What Jesus tell 'em do? Go teach and baptize. That is water baptism, Doctor Kinley. Literal water. How do you know? He told men to administer it. The only baptism a man can administer is water. I challenge you to point out any other baptism that men can administer. No such thing. You cannot do it; you can't do it. Baptize...
_________________________
6 2 Timothy 2:2
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As Peter said, in Acts 2:30, when they asked what to do, then he said repent. This is after he preached to them too. He had preached toward the preaching of them being baptized when he's preaching, he didn't ___ no waste of time. The only teaching the Holy Ghost is doing because they spake as the spirit gave the utterance. So, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, the apostle instrument through whom the Holy Spirit spake. Therefore the Holy Spirit through Peter gave the answer, and if it's the wrong answer, the Holy Spirit is to blame because He was speaking through him. Jesus said, it's not you that speaks but the Spirit that speaks through him. Matthew 1 0 and 20. They didn't have to take any thought what they were to say. Alright. He told them... the 16th chapter of John, the spirit guides you in all truth.
So when they asked what to do, Peter told them repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Fath... or rather repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name Jesus Christ for the remission of the sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So, it wasn't Holy Ghost baptism because the Holy Ghost was given after He said repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and as something else is coming. What? You'll receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Holy Ghost is something given to them after they repented and were baptized.
Let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, if Peter, if Peter was, or the apostle were baptizing the people on Pentecost when they were preaching, then they baptized them before they had repented, because Peter commanded them to repent, and he didn't say it to them if they hadn't of repented. He didn't tell them to do nothing they'd already done. Repent and be baptized, after. If they were baptizing while the apostles were preaching, they were baptized before they were taught to repent, before they repented. Here you have someone who has not repented already baptized. Someone yet in their sin, baptized with the Holy Ghost, the Holy.., and God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to people who haven't obeyed Him.
Acts 5:32. His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost whom God has given to all them that obey Him.
Or in Galatians 4 and 6, we have witness of these things, or 6 and 4, or 4 and 6 rather. We witness these things that God called, or rather the Hol.., rather God has sent the, because you are sons that's what I meant, because ye are sons, God has sent the spirit upon, in your hearts crying Abba Father. It's not to make you a son, but because you are a son.
Someone: Right.
Pastor Hogan: God sent the spirit in the hearts of those who will obey. Alright, so much for that.
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Now, since he kept mentioning what happened last night, or before I get to that, you better go and get for me Colossians 2, 2 and 11. They harped on that. Went back, picked it up. Colossians 2 and 11. We better get that and then I wanna get on something else. Read.
Reader: In whom also ye are, ye are circumcised
Pastor Hogan: In whom also ye are circumcised
Reader: with the circumcision made without hands,
Pastor Hogan: with the circumcision made without hands,
Reader: in putting off the body of
Pastor Hogan: Now listen. He said, Paul records those under the law were circumcised. Their circumcision were by hands, a fleshly circumcision that was made with hands, but the circumcision in putting off the body of the sin of the flesh is without hands. Now that's what he said. Read it again.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh.
Pastor Hogan: How is it done?
Reader: by the circumcision of Christ:
Pastor Hogan: by the circumcision of Christ. Well, how is it done?
Reader: Buried with him in baptism,
Pastor Hogan: Buried with him in baptism or after you repented, repent and be baptized, everyone of you (AUDIENCE STARTS TO REACT OR CHUCKLE) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins or afterwards you've received in our hearts, thou rise and be baptized unto water, only by them calling in the name of the Lord.
Ephesians 5 and 25. Husband love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.
And this gentleman doesn't know the difference in the water, or cleansing of the Church and cleansing his house. He doesn't know the difference between feet and Church, because he went over there last night to the 13th chapter of John where Christ washed the disciples feet and said, and said, the washing of Ephesians 5:25 was the washing that took place in the 13th chapter of John. 13th chapter of John, Christ was washing the disciples feet. In the fifth chapter of Ephesians, there in the 25th verse, husbands love your wives even so also Christ has also loved the Church and gave Himself for it. It. What it? What is there to the teaching of the pronoun it? What is the matter with you? ___ ___ ___ the pronoun said. ___ ___ ___ ___, or the pronoun that His Church, gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse It, when it's the Church, not the disciples feet.
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Someone: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: Doctor Kinley, don't you know the difference between feet and the Church? (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) Now he went, he went, he went to the 13th... one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Went to the 13th chapter of the book of John where Christ was washing the disciples feet.
Christ is teaching a lesson that they couldn't understand. Why even the disciples had been arguing, whosoever is greater or who'd be greatest in the Kingdom. And Christ is teaching 'em, I'll be great. I'll teach them a lesson of humility; and it's also pointed out in that chapter. Alright. So, 1, 1, I hope he knows to recognize that the Church is one thing and feet another. Course He did wash the disciples' feet with literal water, and He cleansed the Church with literal water. Yeah, that He might sanctify, listen -, sanctify. What else? And cleanse it. How? With the washing of water. How? By the word. If you preach the word here, you'll baptize people in water for the remission of their sins. Alright.
Now let's go back, circumcision. They was out there and buried with Him in baptism and then also, ye are risen with, how?
Reader: through the faith of the operation of God,
Pastor Hogan: through the faith. Of who?
Reader and Pastor Hogan: the operation of God,
Reader: who has raised Him from the dead.
Pastor Hogan: who has raised Him from the dead, buried, as the gentlemen there would have it. Buried in baptism, an operation'll take place, and God's doing the operation without hands. What is it doing? It's the putting off of the sins of the flesh. That's how you gotta do it. That's how you get rid of your sins. That's how you put off the sin of your flesh is by being buried in baptism. Why on earth did you sin? And God's the one who does the pardoning, when you do what He says do, like He said do.
Audience: Right.
Pastor Hogan: Alright. After He come on down... There's some many of things, that he said tonight or in this, this argue tonight, that isn't worth listening to, I'd rather consider it; however I want to call attention to a few other things that he brought out, that he discussed even non stop.
Oh yeah, I want back there, second ch... the 20th verse of that second chapter. He went there, I don't wanna leave that. 20th verse of the second chapter of Colossians.
Reader: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ
Pastor Hogan: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ. How?
Reader: from the rudiments of the world,
Pastor Hogan: from the rudiments of the world,
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Reader: Why,
Pastor Hogan: You know when people obey the gospel, they are separated from the world. That's means a separation for the dea.., that dead in Christ the rudiments of the world. Why as though
Reader: living in the world,
Pastor Hogan: living in the world,
Reader: are you subject to ordinances,
Pastor Hogan: are you subject to ordinances,
Reader: Taste not;
Pastor Hogan: Now listen. What's he talking about the rudiments of the world? Why are you subject? And that could refer to the Jewish world, and that of course has passed. That is.., that ended at the cross. Why are you subject to ordinances? Now, listen. What do you think... What did He say?
Reader: Touch not;
Pastor Hogan: touch not. He's gonna tell you what He's talking about.
Reader: taste not;
Pastor Hogan: taste not;
Reader- handle not;
Pastor Hogan: handle not;
Reader: Which all are to perish with the using
Pastor Hogan: Which all are to perish
Reader: with the using;
Pastor Hogan: with the using;
Reader: after the commandments
Pastor Hogan: after the commandments
Reader: and doctrines of men?
Pastor Hogan: and doctrine of men. That's the very thing that He's talking about. That's what they.., why as though living in the world are you subject to ordinances, the doctrine and commandments of men? The things of the world, you're separated from that. How is it, how, how does that happen? Paul, the sixth chapter out of the book of Romans, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, not in sin, but dead to sin, live longer. Know ye not, that's gonna be the law, as are baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized in death? Therefore we are buried...
___ ___ I wanna go on there because of the fact he's saying you're not baptized into His death, but I want you to know you are baptized into the benefits of Christ's death, because we are baptized into Christ and salvation is in Christ.
Second Timothy there 2:1 0. How that all spiritual blessings are in Christ.
Ephesians 1 and 3. All of God's promises are in Christ.
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Second Corinthians 1 and 20. First, you're baptized into Christ.
Romans 6 and 3, Galatians 3 and 27. And in Christ there's neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female. So no need for you going over here saying there's one thing for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. In Christ are no Jews, no Gentiles. Christ has freed us. We're all one in Christ. He broke down the wall of partition in order to make a one. But I'll get the ___ ___ ___ into that same chapter. Therefore ye are buried with Him with baptism into death: and that was Christ, here it come, that like as Christ were raised from the dead, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also in the likeness of His resurrection.
Christ first became dead, secondly buried, thirdly He was delivered. The sinner becomes dead to the law, the practice of sin, through the preaching of the gospel, cause the gospel demand that he repent. And as ___ dead, you don't bury him until he's dead. You don't bury live people. So then as, as Christ died first, the sinner died first. The love of practice sin through the preaching the gospel. ___, Christ is buried... And let me tell you, the sinner was all.., and secondly is buried in baptism. Who buries him? Jesus told the disciples to baptize. And baptism comes from the Greek word, baptizo, which means dip, plunge, ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ meaning Christ commanded men to baptize. So then, he's buried in baptism, buried ‘em, as Christ was delivered, we find that a sinner's delivered or the one that was a sinner is delivered, if you please, when he was raised in baptism, he's delivered, delivered from the grave of baptism. Delivered from his past sins. Paul, a little further, the 17th verse of the same chapter.
Reader: But God be thanked
Pastor Hogan: God be thanked
Reader: that you were the servants of sin.
Pastor Hogan: that you were, you're not now, but you were the servants of sins.
Reader: but ye have obeyed from the heart,
Pastor Hogan: but ye have obeyed from the heart,
Reader: that form of doctrine which was delivered you
Pastor Hogan: that form of doctrine which was delivered you
Reader: being then made free from sin
Pastor Ho-gan: being then, and then means when. When? When you've obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine. What is that? The death, the burial, the resurrection. You're not to obey that, but to obey the form. The sinner becomes dead to the love of practicing sin.
Ephesians 6 and 1 and 2. He's buried.
Ephesians, or rather Romans 6:1 and 2 and Romans 6 and 4, he's delivered, he rises to walk in the newness of life. Alright. Back here to being dead,
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Reader: Being then made free from sin, 7
Pastor Hogan: made free from sin
Reader: ye become the servants of righteousness
Pastor Hogan: you become the servant of righteousness.
All right, so much for that, so much for that. And, let me see.
Respecting John 3:5, since he brought up so much to discuss last night. John 3:5. This is what Jesus said. And son, you go over to get ___ in Matthews five, Matthews five. The trouble with the gentleman, he imparted the impression that what Jesus said before He died was under the law. Well if under the law, or rather the Dispensation of the Law and not binding in the Dispensation of Grace. What? The fifth chapter of Matthew and the 21st verse says what?
Reader: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time
Pastor Hogan: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time
Reader: Thou shalt not kill.
Pastor Hogan: Thou shalt not kill.
Reader: And whosoever shall kill
Pastor Hogan: And whosoever shall kill
Reader:shall be in danger of the judgment.
Pastor Hogan: shall be in danger of the judgment. Read.
Reader: but I say unto you,
Pastor Hogan: but I say... They said this under the Dispensation of the Law, but I say... And you know that's all the way down. I don't have time to read it, but that's all the way down. Matthews 5:21, 22, 27, 28, 33, 34, 30, 39, Jesus said, it says this, but back to the days of old, but I say.
And that same Jesus said in Mark 13 and 31, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Don't you know Doctor Kinley wants us to believe that His words did pass away, it's completed at the cross. They nailed it, what Christ said to the cross, because he's been trying to nail John 3:5 to the cross ever since I've known him. and he's not able to do it. Christ said, heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
In John 48, 12:48, He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth non other as one that judges.
Read John 3:5 because somebody's not receiving my Master's word.
Reader: Jesus answered
Pastor Hogan: Jesus answered
_____________________________
7 Romans 6:18.
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Reader: verily, verily I say unto thee
Pastor Hogan: verily, verily I say unto thee
Reader: except a man be born of water
Pastor Hogan: except a man be born of water
Reader: and of the spirit
Pastor Hogan: Of what?
Reader: of water.
Pastor Hogan: W A T E R, water, didn't say in spiritual water either. No. When spiritual water is mentioned, it's called living water or water of life. But Jesus said, Except a man be born of water; that's why you have to be buried and raised, born ___ of delivery, coming forth. And when one has been buried, when he comes forth, he's born of water and it is all according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Now, this couldn't be, this could not be, ladies and gentlemen, this could not be a literal now, it's spiritual because it says, except a man is born of water and of spirit. Everyone that is spiritual ___ ___, it makes it spiritual. Let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, this did not go into effect un.., before the Day of Pentecost. On the Day of Pentecost as when.., men started obeying this command. This is a command that started on the Day of Pentecost. That was when the Holy Spirit... How do you know it started with the Day of Pentecost?
I'll go over there and hold, I'll go to his, his passage that he loved so much. John 7, John 7:38. This is proof how I know that this born of water and spirit did not start before Pentecost. Read that.
Reader: He that believeth on me
Pastor Hogan: He that believeth on me
Reader: as the scripture hath said
Pastor Hogan: as the scripture hath said
Reader: out of his belly
Pastor Hogan: out of his belly
Reader: shall flow
Pastor Hogan: shall flow
Reader: rivers of living water.
Pastor Hogan: rivers of living water.
Reader: But this spake he of the spirit,
Pastor Hogan: But this spake he of the spirit,
Reader: which they that believe on him
Pastor Hogan: which they that believe on him
Reader: should receive:
Pastor Hogan: should receive:
Reader: for the Holy Ghost
Pastor Hogan- for the Holy Ghost
Reader: was not yet given;
Pastor Hogan: was not yet given;
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Reader: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Pastor Hogan: because Christ was not yet glorified. That's why I know it didn't start before Pentecost, because the spirit wasn't given til the Master went back to Heaven. And it's when He went to Heaven, He sent the Holy Spirit down to ___ flesh and blood. ___ ___. Guess it couldn't have started before Pentecost Doctor. Born of water and of the spirit started under the Dispensation of Grace, the Holy Spirit had to guide them in all truth, and He wasn't given until the Day of Pentecost. Bless your heart.
I love you, yes I do. You love one another ___ ___. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) I love you and I'm gonna spank you (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) That's awful. Go ahead.
Now, this over here. I brought this thing out now, as I pointed out last night, we know that Christ said this while He was alive, but don't you know you had to stipulate none's will.., no one makes out a will after he's dead. The will has to be made out before he dies; and it's only enforced after he's dead. So ladies and gentlemen, as respecting this very same thing, ___, ___ ___ the Master's here. It says except a man is born of water and the spirit, this is in the will. And it did not become of force until Christ died. So certain, certainly a will and things stipulated therein must be made while the testator liveth, and as he said it become effect after His death, this ___ of water and the spirit, did not stop, if you please, before the Spirit came. The spirit didn't ___ on the Day of Pentecost, or the beginning of the Dispensation of Grace, which you admit. You admit that, you said it tonight. After the Dispensation of Grace started on the Day of Pentecost when this born of water and of the Spirit ___ when the Spirit came.
Audience: You got it.
Pastor Hogan: Spirit was ___ and guiding. Jesus sent Him back to guide and He didn't send Him back until He was glorified.
All right, talking about water. Hebrews 10 and 22, Let us draw near with a true heart, full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed in pure water. Pure water. Pure.
Now you know another thing he been saying around here, that no one can show where any apostle, any apostle was ever sent to baptize a Gentile. And then try to go to some scripture that we go to to ___ ___ ___. You can't do that to me. Get that 10th chapter of book of Acts. (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) 10th chapter of book
of Acts. You can't pull that with me, you better pull your feet up, ___ ___ ___. 10th chapter, ___ ___ ___ ___, bless your heart, ___ there, while this man, Cornelius, who's is centurion of a band called the Italian Band, while they were ___ ___ a praying man and God sent an angel and told that angel to send and come and get Peter. And He told him to send for Peter. In the 14th verse, the 1lth chapter, it tells me why, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Alright. Now here's the man. He sent for him. And if you read the 19th and 20th verses
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of that 10th chapter where he was ___ ___...
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) While Peter thought on the vision the spirit said unto him Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore and get thee down.
Reader: and go with them, doubting nothing
Pastor Hogan: and go with them, and carry on ___ ___. He said that I couldn't prove how he's sent to baptize a Gentile. He said that. Now read verse 47 and 48.
Reader: Can any man forbid water
Pastor Hogan: Well now, back up if you please, about the 34th verse, 35th, 34th.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Pastor Hogan: What God poured out the Holy Spirit, as he began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them as it did on the Jews at the beginning. Alright, when that happened, what's the 47th verse said?
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Pastor Hogan: And what about it?
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Pastor Hogan: He told him what to do, because the Lord said they would tell thee word whereby thine own house ___ ___. Peter was sent to come down there and teach those people and tell them that God's orders of ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___. Now that is a case of apostle being sent to baptize a Gentile. That's real clear.
___ ___ you said that the Ethiopian wasn't a Gentile. Will you please read that, where you... He said the Ethiopian wasn't a Gentile. I say he was a Gentile. I said he wasn't a Jew. You read that.
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You say a lotta things, but this place ___ ___ ___. ___ opinion. ___ ___ ___ ___. The point that I'm getting, I'm getting ov... I got the whole Church down at Ephesus were gentiles. Paul says He cleaned 'em with the washing of water by the word; ___ the Gentiles, baptized, that's how they were clean, through the washing of water.
And Paul said, Ephesians 4 and 5, there's one baptism. Ephesians 5:25. In water. Alright, bless your heart, thank you very kindly. I get on this other, I got ___ ___ ___ ___.
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Dr. Kinley: ... would like to say, find I don't have much time, but I would like to say this. I sat there and listened attentively to what Doctor Hogan said about that second chapter of Colossians. Now, I want you to go back and read it yourself and see if it's like he said it was. Please read. Begin at the 1lth verse.
Dr. Harris: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
Dr. Kinley: with the circumcision made without hands,
Dr. Harris: in putting
Dr. Kinley: What, what, what. Hold that right there. Is there a comma or a period, or what is there? Or does that sentence end or finish there?
Dr. Harris: Comma.
Dr. Kinley: Comma. Now if the circumcision is made without hands, his contention is that you baptize somebody in obedience to the command, so he says, with your hands. Read the rest of the sentence.
Dr. Harris: in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh
Dr. Kinley: in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh
Dr. Harris: by the circumcision of Christ.
Dr. Kinley: by the circumcision of Christ. I said, and I'll repeat, that Christ was circumcised eight days after He was born.
I said last night too, to hook this up together: the first Adam back in the Garden of Eden, Romans 5:14, don't, don't, we don't have to bother with it, said that he was a figure of Him that was to come. Now, I am telling you that that man, physical man Adam back there in the Garden of Eden, sinned; and death was pronounced upon all men, listen, even over them that had not sinned were included. Now just like that, and that the first Adam, the second Adam is the regenerator. And whatever happened to him: circumcision, that you're reading about here, made without hands; the putting off of the Adamic body of sin. Read.
Dr. Harris: buried with him in baptism,
Dr. Kinley: Now look. What's after that?
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Dr. Harris: Comma.
Dr. Kinley: Comma. Listen. That statement is not finished. Now he stopped right there, you hear, it's recorded, and said that when you obey then you were buried with Him by baptism; meaning buried in literal, physical water with hands. And I said that that isn't what it said there. So I'm disputing him on that, and he's shook my confidence in his ability to correctly comprehend what he was reading, as I told you last night. And that it is not a Bible reading contest; it's understanding what you're reading in the Bible. So you're buried with Him by what?
Dr. Harris: in baptism
Dr. Kinley: in baptism
Dr. Harris: wherein also
Dr. Kinley: Now right in that. Listen. Please, no hands, in the circumcision. Please no hands in burying him, burying you within Him. No hands if you please. Read.
Dr. Harris: wherein also ye are risen with Him
Dr. Kinley: Right in that same thing. What?
Dr. Harris: ye are risen with Him
Dr. Kinley: Ye are risen with Him. How's that?
Dr. Harris: through the faith of the operation of God
Dr. Kinley: through faith and the operation of, operation of God. God is spirit. All that without any hands. Well, that's what it said there.
Dr. Harris: who hath raised him from the dead.
Dr. Kinley: who hath raised him from the dead. Now, Doctor Hogan, Kinley or anybody else can preach until you fall dead, but unless you believe or have some faith and confidence in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it will not help you one bit. You understand? Now that's what's in the Book. And he put in there, can you forbid that form of doctrine, baptizing by hand, he stipulated that in that second chapter there. And I say it's not in there. Then turned around and blamed it on me, said, 'I said.' (AUDIENCE REACTS) That's what he did. It's recorded. Well, I didn't say that. I just read, had you to read it out of the Book. You read it correct. All you have to do is just read, read it correct. Whether you're reading for Doctor Hogan or me, either one- all you have to do is read what's in the Book; then understand it.
I said, it's recorded, that in the sixth chapter of Romans he said that I said that that was under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not say that. (AUDIENCE REACTS) It's recorded. I tell you what I did say, and that is recorded. And I want you to know he misunderstood me. Paul, when he wrote the epistle, - and I even went back in the fifth chapter to get the subject and then come on down to the predicate. And I said that what Paul was talking about in that fifth chapter, told you that death reigned from Adam to Moses, after the similitude of Adam's
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transgression, even over them that had not sinned. Paul is discussing that. I said, then that baptism, the Jews, I said that. And Paul is talking about that the Jews was baptized under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not said that the epistle was written under the Dispensation of the Law. I said what Paul is talking about in the epistle was under the Dispensation of the Law. And it was. And Brother Hogan knows that it was. I know it and you know it.
What shall we say then? I said Paul was talking about the Jew, telling the gentiles about it, in that epistle. You understand? Oh, I tell you.
More things I'd like to call attention to, that he said that Jesus said and Kinley said. You got it all recorded. We played the tape over today that was made last night. And some of them same stupid errors is in that tape, saying I said things that I didn't say. Saying the thing means something and it don't mean...
I asked for just one gentile, just one, don't want but one. And he said, in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles, I'm talking about Cornelius, the last verse of it. Peter commanded them to be baptized in the water. Peter did do that. I don't have no dispute and argument with that. If Peter said anything other than that, then, then we'd be in a dispute. Now here's what I want you to know. Why not just try reading on in the 11th chapter of Acts of Apostles and see what happened after Peter said that. Now Peter was in Joppa on a housetop, when those men come from Cornelius' house to Joppa, I don't have time to go in a whole lotta detail of it no how. See. And Peter said, nothing common or unclean has entered into my mouth at any time.
And I tried my best when I was here a while ago, on the floor speaking. I tried to point out in the Great Commission, as you call it, Jesus said, go into all the world and baptize every creature, I tried to point that out. Cornelius is a creature. You are a creature.
Now Peter on the housetop up there, said, not so Lord. It is so that He did send him. Told him about it even before he was on the housetop or before He ascended. But when time comes for him to go, seven years later, Peter had forgotten about it, well he just might as well anyhow, there wasn't no need of him trying to remember. And why it wasn't necessary for him to remember? Cause Jesus said this, He said this under the Dispensation of the Law too. Said when the Holy Ghost is come, isn't that right, He'll bring all things that I have said to your remembrance. So it wasn't necessary for him to remember, cause the Holy Ghost when He comes brought it to his remembrance.
And I tried to point a while ago that in the first chapter of Acts of Apostles that Jesus said, after He'd risen from the dead, and after John had finished up his baptizing that Jesus said John truly baptized with water but... There's your conjunction again. You shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. And to make a long story real short. They did receive the Holy Ghost. Now I wanna go down in that 10th chapter, but I want you to see how I'm going into it. And in that 11 th chapter of Acts of Apostles. Please try not to miss me this trip. See. Peter
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commanded him to be baptized, gentile, in literal, physical water- When Peter went back up to Jerusalem, I didn't say Joppa, I said Jerusalem, where the rest of the apostles were, and Peter called their attention to the ___. Is that right? Now when Peter got back up there in Jerusalem, in Judea, will you listen right here? I'll be patient. (AUDIENCE) He started all over again at the beginning of it and rehearsed the whole entire proceeding, what took place and what happened. And then... maybe you better read it.
Dr. Harris: And as I began to speak the Holy Ghost fell on them and on us at the beginning, then remembered I the word of the Lord.
Dr. Kinley: Then remembered I the Word of the Lord. What I'm trying to tell you is this. Now it wasn't God's mistake. They got the Holy Ghost without being baptized in literal, physical water. And Doctor Hogan stood up here and marked on this board a while ago, said you don't bury live men. You heard... it's on the recording machine. Brother, when he got the Holy Ghost, he was made alive. It's against the law to bury by baptism as Peter had commanded him to be. And when Peter made that command, you got it right there, it's in the Book, said, then remembered I the words of the Lord, how He said, John truly baptized in water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Believe it or not it is in there.
Now there's something else I wanna call attention to, because it effects the same thing. And I mentioned it at last night, and I wanna mention it again. Please keep this connected with that, statements we just made. In the 15th chapter of Saint John, Jesus said, I am the true vine, My Father is the husbandman; every branch that bears not fruit in Me, that He takes it away. 'Who takes it away?' My Father. 'Who is your Father?' God. 'Who is God?' God is spirit, so it's spirit broken off, broke them branches off. That is in the Book. Those words were spoken under the Dispensation of the Law. And they took affect on the Day of Pentecost, they were broke off.
Now I want you to watch this one.
TAPE 3, SIDE B:
Dr. Kinley: Romans the 1 lth chapter and begin to read at the 17th verse, And please stop mak.., trying to make Paul dispute hisself.
Dr. Harris: And if some of the branches be broken off
Dr. Kinley: Now if some of the branches be broken off
Dr. Harris: and thou being a wild olive tree
Dr. Kinley: and thou being a wild olive tree
Dr. Harris: were grafted in among them
Dr. Kinley: were grafted in among what?
Dr. Harris: among them
Dr. Kinley: Among them. Grafted in among them. I said grafted in among them. Read.
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Dr. Harris: and with them partaketh of the root and
Dr. Kinley: and with them partaketh the
Dr. Harris: and with them partaketh of the root
Dr. Kinley: and with them partaketh of the root
Dr. Harris: and fatness of the olive tree
Dr. Kinley: and fatness of the olive tree
Dr. Harris: boast not against the branches.
Dr. Kinley: Don't you be boasting against the branches. Read on.
Dr. Harris: But if thou boast
Dr. Kinley: But if thou boast
Dr. Harris: thou barest not the root
Dr. Kinley: thou barest not the root. Read on, I'm in a hurry.
Dr. Harris: Thou will say then the branches were broken off.
Dr. Kinley: Thou will say then... Now look, the branches, the branches, not the root, the branches- What?
Dr. Harris: that I might be grafted in.
Dr. Kinley: that you might be grafted in. The branches. After the seed has been planted, then the tree comes up. And I tried my best to tell you that John was planting, burying 'em by baptism into His death. Now you.., Doctor Hogan said, I said that. I did not say that. If you read the Book, there in the fifth and sixth chapter of Romans, you'll see that I didn't say it. Read on about these branches.
Dr. Harris: Well because of unbelief
Dr. Kinley: Well because of unbelief
Dr. Harris: They were broken off
Dr. Kinley: They were broken off
Dr. Harris: And thou standest by faith
Dr. Kinley: Huh?
Dr. Harris: Thou standest
Dr. Kinley: Now, now wait a minute, now you make sure. You make sure that you read that like it's in the Book. You know what my contention is there? I'm telling you that those Gentiles was not planted. They were grafted in by faith. And they stood by faith, that's the Book. Now if you wanna argue, argue with the Book. That's what happened. Grafted in, ye stand by faith. Not among the roots, but the branches. That means after the tree has come up, the branches about it, then every branch broken off, the Gentile grafted in. Missed the planting procedure, he's grafted in. Missed that water baptism. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Now that's a fact you can't argue with. You know good and well, John wasn't baptizing nobody out there but the gen... but the Jew. Planting. See. Why argue with the facts?
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Then I wanna let you know this. See, God down at Cornelius' house, gave them the Holy Ghost before any water. 'What are you doing that for God?' Grafting 'em in. 'How?' By faith. 'What'd you do that for?' I promised that in his seed I'll bless all the families of the earth, and I'm fulfilling My promise of pouring out the Spirit on the Gentile. Isn't that right? It was.., now then Paul's talking to you in the second chapter of Colossians, going right back to the same thing in the third chapter of Romans.
Fred Allen: You got five minutes.
Dr. Kinley: Okay. See. Now, the Gentile, ___, see, through his mind then he understands that when Christ was crucified, he was crucified and buried with Christ and risen with Him without getting in that water. Do you see that now? Now I didn't fix up this Book. I had nothing to do with it. See.
Now under this Dispensation of Grace, this Dispensation of Grace, Doctor Hogan went down there in the second chapter of Colossians and read this. If ye be dead with Christ, talking to the Gentile, from the rudiments of the world, why as though living in the world are ye yet subject to ordinances? My contentions is preaching the gospel, that's what Jesus Christ sent 'em to do, to preach the gospel and that remission sin should be preached in the name beginning at Jerusalem. And that is what they done. And they was baptizing 'em in the name when they was AO". preaching the gospel. He said, 'no.' I say yes. That's the argument, You decide. I said on the Day of Pentecost, he that believeth on Me as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this spake He of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or when Jesus did speak those things under the Dispensation of the Law, John explained, this spake He of the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost was not yet given at the time. It was given on the Day of Pentecost. And when they spoke preaching unto the Gentiles, I mean preaching unto the Jews on the Day of Pentecost, according to the law and according to the prophets, there was living water flowing out of their belly. Yes, it was. Believe it or not. But it's apparent, as he said last night about the eunuch, see, said, that here is water. See, see it. Anything he can't see, you understand, it don't mean nothing to him. So living water flowing out of their belly, you couldn't see that. (AUDIENCE RESPONDS) So it don't mean nothing to him. It does to me. It's great.
And there's a whole lotta things that needs to be said, and one of the things I wanna say right here. I was glad you said that last night too, Doctor Hogan. Doctor Hogan, I'm glad you said that last evening that we were welcome down at his place on Figueroa. And if he was right about it, I said he could have, me included, the whole entire audience, if he could take that Book and prove he was right. And he said he was in perfect agree... and harmony with that. That's what he said. In other words, if that's the way it is, you understand, then if you're right about it, you can have all of this. I know what the man meant by that. He meant that we should study together, which he and I both should be willing to do was to submit ourselves to righteousness of God. Otherwise there would be no point in having a debate or a discussion. Now I brought that up, so I could say this. Brother Hogan, I will be down and you, the audience and congregation that
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belongs to the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research, please go down.
Someone: Time is up.
Dr Kinley: Time is up. Do that please.
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Pastor Hogan: Come on down and do like he said, come on down there and baptize you for the remission of sins in water like the Bible teaches. Now he said we oughta submit ourselves to the righteousness of God. That is the last statement he said.
Someone: That's right,
Pastor Hogan: That's right, that's right doctor. All of you heard, amen, that's what he, we ought to submit ourselves to the righteousness of God.
David said, 119th division of Psalms, 122 verse, all of God's commandments are right, so we ought to submit to the commandments.
In Mark 16:16, he that believeth and be baptized shall be saved, ___ ___ the other day.
In John 3:5 except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of God, the kingdom of God. We should submit to that, cause the Lord ordered that. And when you submit to that, then there won't any difference between us, but when you rebel against it and try to show that it's the water that came out of that.., or flow out of the belly of them believers in which.., being water baptized then of course there's no agreement there, because the Bible doesn't teach that. I asked you to read last night, I asked you to read in the Bible where you'd be baptized in that water. You haven't read it yet. You haven't read that yet.
And I don't know why that the Doctor completely ignored the arguments that I have put before you.
I call attention Hebrews 10:25, 22. Let us draw near with a true heart with full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed in pure water. He hasn't mentioned that.
I also respected the man of Ethiopia. He just called attention to it. And went there and said, I said, 'see, see.' Why did he prove that to be wrong? He said I don't accept anything that 1, 1, I can't see. Well doctor, you're wrong. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I accept faith, but when you hear the gospel, you'll get the faith, when you believe it, you've got faith, when you get rid of your sin, that's faith -, when you confess -, that's faith acknowledged. And when you're baptized that's faith obeys, because He commanded baptism. If you had the faith that believes you'd obey God, you would submit to water baptism, because He commanded men to repent. I repeatedly have pointed out that the water baptism, men shall administer the water. Have you ever heard him touch it? You know why he didn't touch it? He know it's the truth.
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I also affirm the only baptism commanded is water. And I pointed out the Holy Spirit baptism in water commands is the promise. That the only baptism commanded is water. Has he touched it? No, he just left it alone. You know why? I don't blame him. Too hot to handle, can't teach the doctrine that he teaches, he'd have to give up what he teaches. He admitted that, or he just left ___ do now.., let that alone, because that dynamite to my God. I don't blame you, I'd left it alone too. Jesus commanded baptism, commanded His disciples to baptize. That's water. Anytime it's commanded, it's water. I challenge him to read where anyone has ever ordered to be baptized in the water that flowed out of the belly of the disciples. Apostles received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost and spake as the spirit gave the utterance. He said He was talking about the Holy Spirit, that was spiritual, and he qualified it by saying, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. In Acts, or rather in John 3:5, except a man is born of water and of the Spirit of he shall not see the Kingdom.
He said those Gentiles... I have to get to each point ___ ___ ___. Those Gentiles were not planted, ___ that water, but he's out there saying he didn't say it. I got the record here a while, when I got up here and say he said thus and so, he said it. ___ ___ ___, he did say it.
Romans 6 and 4. He pointed out you could not be baptized in Christ's death because Christ was already dead, that is why John was baptizing the before He died. He said this was under the Dispensation of the Law. Don't tell me, I heard you. Say when I get up here and read there right in the same chapter, where Paul said you're not under the Law but under Grace. He denies, I didn't say it. I don't blame him for saying I didn't say it. For Paul plainly said that I'm...
And he keeps running to John 15. 1 didn't mention it last night because it wasn't worth it. And it isn't worth it tonight.
Ladies and gentlemen, John 15 was talking about an individual ___ and individual disciples, not the Jewish nation that was broken off. Go over there and get it. John 15. 1 am the true vine,
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (PASTOR HOGAN QUOTES SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE READER EXCEPT FOR THE UNDERLINED WORDS) My father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Reader: I am the vine,
Pastor Hogan: I am the vine,
Reader: ye are the branches.
Pastor Hogan: Ye are who?
Reader: He that abideth in me
Pastor Hogan: He, not the nation. He that abides in me
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Reader: and I in him
Pastor Hogan: and I in him
Reader: the same brings forth more fruit
Pastor Hogan: the same brings forth more fruit. Read.
Reader: for without me ye can do nothing.
Pastor Hogan: for without me ye... Read.
Reader: If a man abide not in me,
Pastor Hocian: If a nation
Reader: If a man
Pastor Hogan: If a nation
Reader: If a man
Pastor Hogan: He sure thinks that a man's a nation. OOOO, my goodness. And this man went right over to the 11 th chapter of a book of Romans to show they are grafted in and said they were not planted, they were grafted in and then, bless your heart, turned right around and said they were planted. Now ladies and gentlemen, I, I made a note of this, those gentiles were not planted, then afterwards he went all the way around about this grafting in business, then he said they were planted, but he referred to the fact they planted by faith. Now how could they be planted and not planted? Now first he said, well not.., they were, they were, first he said they were not planted. But read it, Romans 6 and 5.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (READS AND QUOTES SIMULTANEOUSLY. ONE LEFT OUT THE UNDERLINED PORTIONS) For if ye have been planted in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Pastor Hogan: And that were Gentiles from his text. The 1 1 th chapter of the book of Romans, talking to the Gentiles that was grafted in and told no gentile, don't you boast. Amen doctor. I'm so glad you give me things, but you hear the taping now, and then get up here, act like you didn't pay any attention to what I said, cause I didn't say it.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, he also called attention to the fact.., now this grafting in. Were they grafted in, sign of obedience to God's water. Certainly not. How were they grafted in? Ladies and gentlemen those same people, those same people heard. Romans 10:17, the faith come by hearing. They couldn't believe without hearing. They believed, tenth chapter of Romans. Romans 10: 1 7. I'll start at the 13th verse, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall call on him in whom whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe him in whom they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher? How shall they preach, except they be sent? So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. They heard. They believed.
Romans 10:9 and 10. They repented.
Romans 2:4, they confessed.
Romans 10 and 10: they were baptized.
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Romans 6:3 and 4: here's the planting.
Romans 5: is the resurrection. Romans 5... Romans 6 and 5: and the yellow light we ___ also in the like of resurrection. So they was planted, they were baptized. That was a planting and that doesn't call for Holy Ghost baptism. Before the Holy Ghost baptism there was a planting. You read about Holy Ghost baptism was a planting, only true record of the Holy Ghost baptism on June, died on the Day of Pentecost, just how a person of the household of Cornelius, we didn't discuss tonight. Now the resurrection of the Holy Spirit now. 'Who told you to be baptized with the Holy Ghost? Why is it a ___ for me to baptize, the Holy Ghost. This is special, not ___. You, yourself, went to the first chapter of the book of Acts and quoted part of it. Be ye baptized the Holy Ghost not many days hence. But who was he talking to? He was talking to the apostles. He told the apostles in the 24th chapter of Luke, tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And in the first chapter of the book of Acts.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (START READING AND QUOTING AT THE SAME TIME, THE READER CAN'T KEEP UP AND LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PARTS) The former treatise have I made, 0 Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken ui), after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Pastor Hogan: I know this isn't a... this is a scripture quoting contest, but I have to tell what's in that Book. You can't quote it like that brother, don't get up here and criticize me for doing it. I quote cause I have it in me. I've said it. Commanded to who:
Reader: to the apostles
Pastor Hogan: to everybody
Reader: unto the apostles
Pastor Hogan: and who did he tell to stay there and wait for it. The apostles whom he had chosen, to whom also He showed Himself alive,
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME) after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God; and being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Pastor Hogan: And he said that is 10 days, later.
Woman: Yes, he did.
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Pastor Hogan: Not so. It was 10 days from the passover to the Day of Pentecost, and Christ is in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights. That ___ ___ cut off three days of that, so at least seven days ___ ___ ___ doctor. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) ___ ___ ___. ___ ___ ___ ___ This is after He died from the grave when He told 'em. You shake your head til it falls off, but it's after He got up from the grave when He told 'em to tar.., not leave Jerusalem. And He's in the heart of the earth three days, three nights.
Um, um, um. Alright. I'll keep on railing on that Gentile baptism. Gentile baptism about it, Peter forgot it. Well ladies and gentlemen, when the Holy Ghost came, it didn't come on Peter, it didn't come on the, on the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, I mean on the Jews, it came on the Gentiles. Peter already had the H.., he was already under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And you mean to tell me the Holy Spirit let him forget what he's supposed to do? ___ he has got it, he has got it from the house top to household of Cornelius, he got it by the, by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, when He come, you got it in all truth. Peter ___ ___ ___ ___. That shut up. He will guide you in all truth. And here, household of Cornelius, he's getting ready, he'll guide Peter in the truth. He guided them all the way down alright. He guided him ___, but when he got ready at the baptism, he didn't slip up. Isn't that funny, when you get to water baptism, it's so silly, he just simp.., just forget about it. Ladies and gentlemen, no, the Holy Spirit came on those Gentiles, I proved last night, as a proof to the Jews that the Gentiles accepted, with no difference between the Jew and Gentile, given them a like dose of the Holy Spirit as in the Jew.
And when Peter saw it, said, can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized, who received the Holy Ghost with water. He didn't forget that. He didn't forget that. Ladies and gentlemen let me tell you if he did under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was responsible for the mistake and not Peter. If what you said's true. You're blaming the Holy Spirit. Oh ladies and gentlemen, sure, he was reminded of his own baptism, when he witnessed the gentiles being baptized, he was reminded of his own baptism. Water baptism. So many time I hear a sermon and I'm reminded of my own sermon. It wasn't the fact that I forgotten the sermon I was preaching, but then this resembled what happened to me, what I did. Oh, my goodness.
Ladies and gentlemen, our circumcision made without hands, I'll have to call attention to that. Go back there to Colossians 2 and 12, about this circumcision that is made without hands. Colossians 2:12, because this time is what I want. Ah, He said I'll stop and I given you unto such thing.
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY.) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
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Pastor Hogan: Said, 'who did the operating?' God's did the operating, man did the baptizing, but God does the operating. He told 'em to baptize, go and teach all nations, baptizing them. Just one baptism He commanded man to do. The only baptism man can administer is water. So man, Peter told men, get to baptizing certainly, because the Lord commanded him, but God did the operating. Man doesn't forgive a man of his.., tell a man he's loosed from his sin. His job is to bury em in baptism and God's job's to pardon the sin. Obedience is ___. Why is ___ ___? If he don't know that, I can't help you. Nobody else. We never have a time that permit him to leave that we are pardoning and baptizing. We are baptized and God does the pardoning. It's the operation of God. He's operated on in baptism, that is he's cut loose from the sin and God does that, but it's in.., buried in baptism. And the only one baptism is water and man administers it. Bless your heart. You haven't been baptized with the Holy Ghost, you can wait for that. Only one baptism, and that's the baptism men are commanded to administer. Alright. Well, no need to be bothered anymore of that because it isn't worth it.
If I have a few more minutes I wanna call attention to a few more things. I wonder, I wonder why as I said that he overlooked, overlooked the fact that the Lord teaches that our bodies should be washed in pure, pure. And then I wonder why did he go to the eighth chapter of the book of Acts, where the eunuch as they came to certain water. The only Bible baptism calls for coming to the water or going down into the water, or baptized in ___ ___ and then coming up out of the water. Isaiah, the eunuch said, see here is water, showing there is literal water, natural water. Water he could see. Water he could handle. Water he could go down into. Why didn't
you... why didn't you show how the ___ ___ ___, instead of going there and saying Hogan said that see here's water and left that. Sure, I said, 'see here is water.' That's what the eunuch said. 'What doth hinder me to be baptized?' They got out of the chariot, went down in the water, and the preacher was only guided to the spirit. Did they do wrong? Did the spirit guide the.., Philip into doing the wrong thing, when he taught that eunuch took him down into literal, natural water and baptized? Did the spirit do wrong? According to Doctor, he did wrong, because that baptism is only under the Dispensation of the Law. Bless your heart.
And Ephesians five. Wonder why he didn't get back? He had his answer for my argument. I got argument about that, making... or washing feet, and washing the di.., the church didn't cleanse and sanctify by the washing of water. Do you know he did? He just politely left it alone. Every time he got on to something, I was there to spank him. He didn't wanna be spanked anymore so he left it alone, just like a little child, went he feels sugar, you spank him, 'you better leave that jar alone.' Yeah, you gonna leave that business alone brother. Do you see? That's the.., there's where you leave it alone because he knew that it was a ridicules argument. Especially for him, trying to make washing feet for washing the church. Bless your heart.
You know one thing he hadn't bothered John 3:5. I'm glad I took care of that, poured it out, it started.
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SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Just starting to making a summary now. It started on the Day of Pentecost and he admitted that it was the Dispensation of Grace. And I pointed out that it didn't start before then because the Holy Spirit didn't come until the Day of Pentecost. I wonder why did he left that alone? Thank God there's one thing in this debate, I think your Doctor will leave a lotta things alone. And you been tampering with Jesus, now if you get ___ ___ tell him to shut him up. Should have gotten over while I was here to work him over. That's it.
When he gets done with this thing, now he... our people, our people listen to you, a hook, swallow up hook, line, and sinker, but it isn't what I said. They say, 'well, I don't agree, I ___.’ It isn't that.
In his first talk, he got up using I so much, I wanted to drop my head. I this, I that, I the other, talk about his education and how is going to be supported. I wanted.., we're not interested in your popularity. We are interested in the truth. Preach now, said Paul, but Christ teaches the Lord and I'll say unto you, you're ___ for Jesus sake. Alright. I had it down here. I don't know how many times he used 1. Give us the history of hisself, instead of spending that time answering my argument or of defending something on the penitent, he's around talking about what he has done, and how he came into California, and what... how popular he was, and all of that. He was wound up and let me tell you first, be careful when they go to try to build themselves up, and talking so much themselves, and they'll turn it over, they give up, like the old the world of ___, give it up. A good bucket of them kicked it over, after all of that, showing that he's worthy all his titles DD and PhD, turned around went to the Bible to prove that DD meant dumb dog. And that's his title. I'm.., I don't like.... that's what he did tonight. The man certainly doesn't know, he doesn't know whether he's coming or going. Talk about conglomerating things, he can conglomerate things in getting such a conglomeration...
And let me tell you this and I ___ ___ ___. The 16th chapter of Romans, 17th verse. 17th verse. 'Then of course I mean to do right. I'd rather to take Christ's words...' Well, if you're ready to take His words, get out and say, 'I've wrong on John 3:5, except a man is born of water and of the spirit. I've been wrong on it. I'm wrong on water baptism. Why? Because Christ commanded on men to baptize I em. I'm wrong when I say they were baptizing when they were preaching.' That's what different, because they were commanded to be baptized after the preaching. I've explained that. He said, but that's stated again, you're baptizing and that's about... last of the argument, you're baptizing when you're preaching. Jesus said go preach the gospel, he that believeth and baptized shall be saved. You preaching baptism comes after the preaching. I quoted, I even read over where it came after the teaching or preaching. They're not the same thing. Teaching's one thing, and baptizing's another. I think you tried to tell us what the school is, you should know what teaching is.
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SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
He got up here and then talk about the school, what it is. Said he was a member of the Church of Christ. Well he's not a member of the church that believeth out of the Bible, not Christ's Church, they said, because the only way you can enter Christ's church is by born of water and the spirit. You better ask Billy Graham. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) And he said if therefore water be you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom and the Church is one and the same. No, you're not in it and won't be in it until you're baptized into Christ. Baptized into Christ, ladies and gentlemen, and be baptized into Christ is to be baptized in fire and to be baptize, in church baptized, ___ ___. Read it there.
Reader: Now I beseech you, brethren
Pastor Hogan: Now I beseech you, brethren
Reader: mark them which cause
Pastor Hogan: mark them that cause
Reader and Pastor Hogan: (READER AND PASTOR HOGAN READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. THE UNDERLINED PORTION PASTOR HOGAN LEFT OUT.) divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Pastor Hogan: they have learned that water baptism for remission of sin. They have learned that they were candidates in a degree in baptism and of course, they
were raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection. They have learned what -Ink
baptism would follow, while the apostle Paul himself wasn't doing the talk, why ladies and gentlemen, he was told to rise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Call on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16. Now they said, you mark them that cause division and offence, contrary to doctrine you have learned. This is what this man's been teaching contrary to doctrine they learned. And what?
Reader: and avoid them.
Pastor Hogan: And avoid them.
Reader: For they that are such
Pastor Hogan: for they that are such
Reader: serve not our Lord Jesus Christ
Pastor Hogan: serve not our Lord Jesus Christ
Reader: but their own belly
Pastor Hogan: Just doing it like he wants it. Their own belly. And what about it.
Reader: and by good words and fair speeches
Pastor Hogan: and by good words. Oh, with good words. ___ ___ ___ ___. You know, you heard that. And by ___ ___.
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SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Reader: deceive the hearts of the simple.
Pastor Hogan: deceive everybody.
Reader: deceive the hearts of the simple
Pastor Hogan: hearts of everybody
Reader: the simple.
Pastor Hogan: The only one a person like that can deceive is a simple, according to the Bible. Anytime a person get up and tell you that you're baptized in the water that flows from the belly of the disciples, if you accept that; he's deceiving himself. Deceive only the simple. 'Well, that's real teaching.'
Reader: and by good words
Pastor Hogan: by good words
Reader: and fair speeches
Pastor Hogan: (PASTOR HOGAN CLAPS)
Reader: deceive the hearts of the simple.
Pastor Hogan: Can't deceive me with that business. Can't deceive, can't deceive any, the spirit of the Bible with that business, have to be someone who's simple enough to take what he's saying and not what the Bible teaches.
Audience: That's right.
Pastor Hogan: Amen. God help you to recognize that. And ladies and gentlemen, there's so many things I would like to call your attention to that time won't allow me to go into, but we're going back.
If you please, the first, second Adam, out of the first or second Adam... Adam, being the first Adam brought death, and the second Adam brought the resurrection of the dead. Read the 15th chapter of first Corinthians the 21st verse, how he wants you to read that in what, what the first Adam did brought death on everybody, well what the second Adam, Adam did, well, that's was just ___, you don't have to do anything; other words when Christ was baptized of John, He was baptized for you. Everybody's baptized. That's his doctrine, he won't deny that either. If he does, he'll deny what he put out, even in black and white. Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, when Jesus said, it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness, God has commanded baptism and Jesus came to do the will of the Father. And He went to John and told John to suffer it to be so now, for thus it becomes us, not me, but us. You were sent to baptize and I'm submitting to it too. I'm gonna fulfill it of all the commandments of God. Therefore it becomes us to fulfill all righteous, not Me. Fulfill, as he pointed out means to perform or to complete or adhere to the progress of, to carry out. I baptize, I'm baptizing, I'll carry out all of God's commandments. Therefore... Well read.
Reader: For since by man came death
Pastor Hogan: Since by man came death
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3) DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
Reader: by man came also the resurrection of the dead
Pastor Hogan: by man came also the resurrection of the dead
Reader: For as in Adam all die,
Pastor Hogan: For as in Adam all die,
Reader: even so in Christ
Pastor Hogan: even so in Christ
Reader: shall all be made alive.
Pastor Hogan: shall we all be made alive. Where, how are they made alive? John 6:63, He said now it is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, but the words which I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. What the words, they are spiritual words and they are life, hear the word. You'll have to obey His word or life you'll never have. What was His word? Except a man is born of water and of the spirit. He can not enter the kingdom of God. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. He said the spirit receives mine, receives mine to show unto you.
John 16 and 13.
Therefore, Acts 2:20, repent and be baptized in the every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 8
Galatians 3:27, many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Acts 22:16. Now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, call on the name of the Lord.
Acts 8:.36. ___ ___ ___ ___ (NOT AN EXACT QUOTE) said water. Went down to the water to be baptized him. Yes he did.
John 12:48. He that rejected me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken unto you, (UNTO YOU WAS ADDED TO THE VERSE) the same shall judge him in the last day. Why you ought be ___ ___, you're rejecting His words. Can't reject His words without rejecting Him. I'll pin any man that'll reject the words of my Master. And told men to baptize, that's water baptism, He commanded baptism. That's water baptism.
Let me tell you it was under the Dispensation of Grace and not the Law. Commission baptism was after Christ died. I wondered if he.., you know what his contention is that is a carnal ordinance and was nailed to the cross. I won't even bother with that 14th verse, blot 'em out here, but you know he stayed off of that. I tell you when you smell a rat, you better let... , you better let the thing alone, I'll be trying to show it to him.
_____________________
8 Acts 2:38.
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SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL
13th chapter of the book of Matthew and the 15th verse, this people's heart waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and be converted and I'll heal them for thou. He said, now it I show it
him ___, he'd all of 'em come over and become members of Church. How can you show him, you got your eyes shut to it. It's plain enough when He said except you're born of water and the spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. There it is: literal water. And it's a spiritual subject because the spirit is connected with it.
Do what you're saying you're gonna do, come on down and let us baptize you forgiveness of sin into the body of Christ in water, like Jesus said, and become a Christian, a member of the Lord's Church. Amen. God bless you.
Now listen. I have an emphatic way of presenting words. Don't you ever give an impression that Doctor Kinley and Hogan are enemies. Don't you ever label an impression that I'm an enemy of Doctor Kinley. I love him and that's why I spank him. (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) He whom the Lord loves, He chasteneth, so I just... I just, when it comes to God's word I have to bear down, but I love you doctor. I believe in all of you, all of you fine folks. My manners is just my manners. Old Popeye say that I am what I am and that's all I am. That's just my manner. Love in my heart always. Thank you kindly folks. Thank you very kindly every one of you for the time. Let's go home.
Ah, Doctor Kinley, thank you very kindly, he asked me to tell you what time the meetings are that was our purpose. We have a Sunday morning Bible class starts at 9:30 and continues to 10:45. Our regular worship service starts at 1 1 o'clock. Our evening service starts at 6 o'clock. We have a Bible classes, for all ages, we have about 30 classes now, don't we John? About 30 classes, classes for all ages, efficient teachers. And Wednesday night our.., we have our class on Tuesday night and on Wednesday night we have our general Bible class, and that class is for all ages. And we have of course a, on Thursday evening is the song rehearsal of our, our group. Now this Thursday because of this discussion, doctor, we are having to put off our special training class that is started doctrine in operation by our Minister of Education Brother Calvin Bowers sitting here, for about eight weeks I think this time. We have class number one, number two, and number three I think. If I could just explain the class for ministers. And of course we have other different classes. And that goes on for eight weeks. That's why I announced that for this, this Thursday night. On Friday night that is a special meeting. I heard Fred announce a Friday night? Those classes meet on Friday night instead of Thursday night? Oh, the leadership on Thursday night. Now that follows at 7... 1 want to thank you Doctor Kinley for having a... Thank you for having ___ read scripture that we know of our service, every minister is indeed a special guest at all, a honored guest at all of our services. Thank you very much. God bless every one of you.
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3) DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
CLOSING REMARKS
Burbank Mitchell: Brother Perkins and myself would like to commend the audience by your mannerism and your conduct truly. I think all of us agree, the total congregation, I think we can agree that we have all been edified. All have been edified, learning something. I think it's been good. Would you agree with me on that?
Audience: Right.
Burbank Mitchell: It's been good. You heard the philosophies and doctrines and interpretations or whatever word you would choose to call it, expressed tonight. Is there any announcements for the institutes of.., Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research,
Woman: Announce our classes.
Fred Allen: I'll just do it. Our classes will be held Thursday night in this room at eight o'clock from eight to ten o'clock. And Thursday I would also let you know when Sunday, or where our Sunday class will be held. They have wanted to do ___ repair in this room, and we're gonna moved to another room. I'll let you know at that time. ___ ___, but we will be in this building. I do not know of any other, any other announcements.
Burbank Mitchell: This will conclude the debate. And let us all now rise and be dismissed.
Dr. Harris: Bow our heads and be dismissed. Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before his presence with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Savior be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever let us all say..... Halleluyah, Amen.
(END OF TAPE)
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Los Angeles, California
originally recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on reel to reel tape recorder
transferred to audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
1 90 and 1 60 minute audio cassette
Catalog Number: 64 TE
1984
originally transcribed by Mary Springer
originally proofread by Gerry Rothstein
1997
first proofreading: Mary Colucci
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Susan Ameigh
fourth proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fifth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
1st speaker: Dr. Roger Jackson
TAPE 1, SIDE 1:
Moderator: I would like to present for the next speaker this evening the founder and Dean of this school, Dr. Henry C. Kinley. Doctor.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you very much. I'm sure that all of you will agree that Dr. Jackson has preached doctrine. If you don't agree, then it's because you don't know what doctrine is. I'm not saying that apologetically either, it is because it is the truth. While he was speaking then, all day today, and practically all this year, I've been thinking about the erroneous doctrines that have been taught down through this age. Christendoom I'm talking about. We got the thing all twisted up, thinking that what you oughta do is, as you see in your papers all the time, 'Go to the church of your choice next Sunday.' Well, then when you begin to examine the doctrine and the philosophies of the various religious organizations against the Bible, then you can discover some of this satanic philosophies and doctrines that's
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
out here, but you first have to know something about the truth itself. You have to learn. And I'm feeling pretty good when I think back over the 33 years that I have been teaching and investigating. It has stood up under scrutiny. I have been abused, accused, bucked at, beat up bodily and everything else that you can think of. Isolated. Segregated. Ostracized. Talk about discrimination. I've had all of them. But I thank God for one thing in particular, and that is: the gospel which I have preached to you these 33 years, I'm not ashamed of it, and it will stand up under scrutiny and investigation.
And I think quite frequent about the people out here talking about God as though He was some antique or way back yonder in oblivion; some prehistoric character. He's out-moded and gone out of date, some place a far off, out of communication, and will see you at some future time. Now that's the way that most of us have been taught. And we don't want to let God, when He does come around, catch us with something we feel like we ought not to have. Then we have an imagination again that He's gonna come and take us to heaven. And we got an imagination about where heaven is. I said an imagination. Look, I know what I'm talking about; I'm using these words, you listen at 'em. When I say imagine, I mean imagine. We imagine somewhere above the sun, moon, and stars that Jesus Christ, He's gone off and left us and He'll be back after awhile. And when He does come back, so they say, He will be looking for a church without spot or wrinkle. Now isn't that the way you've been, ain't that the way you been taught? You know that's so as well as I do. That's your teaching. Well now, that's not so. I don't know no other plainer way to tell you than that. That's not so. Then, He's not gone off either, and God is not an antique God. He's right up to date. The same yesterday, today, and forever and He is ever present, always present, not.., hasn't went off somewhere to come back to. There is no where He is not. And if I understand what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ, so says the apostles.
Now if the Church is the Body of Christ, do you mean to tell me that He has gone off and left it and expects to come back and find it without spot or wrinkles? Don't make sense. It just don't make no sense. Now He's the Head of the Church Himself. The Church is the Body of Christ; now how is He gonna run off and leave His own Body? Then He's gonna come back after His own Body and He's gonna take His own Body back to heaven. We've got Him running in and out of heaven and carrying on like that, now all that stupidity and ignorance is bad. Nothing but a bunch of carnal minded... But look, don't you overlook this, all of this false and erroneous doctrine was supposed to be in the world. And if it was not in the world, then the Bible wouldn't be right because the Bible says that it is, will be. And there is an accurate description of these last days, about the conduct, the disposition of the people and the teaching that they receive, which got 'em all confused.
Now I wanted to kinda mention two or three things to you, so that you can kind of begin to see where it's twisted up at. First is, as Dr. Jackson has told you, you've got to have some kind of a pattern, some kind of a plan. You've got to know what God's purpose is; how He works it out through the dispensations. You don't want to take a Bible and go into the Bible and start to reading. 'Well, I've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I've read it four or five times.' And you
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
wanna boast around about you reading the Bible. Why there's thousands of people that have read the Bible through and through, many, many times and don't, still don't know nothing about it. They don't know nothing about it. They don't know nothing about the Bible, they don't know nothing about God, they don't know nothing about the devil. And all he's got is just puffed up in his carnal, stupid, and ignorant mind and imagining he knows something. And He don't even realize when he's even convicted his own self.
As Dr. Jackson says, the New Testament, why we're reading it all the time, 'Read and known of all men.' Now I don't care what your profession is. It just really doesn't make any difference. All you have got to do is get up here where I am, I mean in this pulpit, and open your mouth, start to talking and anybody that's been around this school any length of time can tell whether you got the Holy Ghost. Now you can cry if you want to, act all humble and just as humble as you please, but they can tell whether you've got the Holy Ghost. You can't tool nobody that's got the Holy Ghost with your apparent voluntary humility. You just can't do that, can't deceive nobody like that.
Then, as I said before, when it comes to knowing the purpose of God and how it's worked out, you'll have an awful job trying to find some religious organization that knows something about it. 'Which one would you refer to?' They've been asking that question. 'What church is right? Tell me, so I'll know where to go and what church to join,' or something, isn't that, isn't that what... Well, you, you can't point nobody out to no church over here that's right according to the Book. It just isn't, just isn't, they're not here like that. Well now maybe I might have to kinda draw in the horns a little bit here.
Right across the street over here, we have here The Foundation of Human Understanding; and God forbid that I say anything about them that I ought not to say. And in the meantime, in the meantime they are no worse than the rest of 'em. Be that as bad as it is. No worse than the rest of 'em, if you was gonna grade 'em. Now, 'Why did you say that?' Now I have some of the literature. Now if it is the Foundation of Human Understanding, as I would like to accept it that they're teaching human beings to have some understanding, course they didn't say of what, well now how do you understand? What's your premises? What's your pattern? What's your plan? How does it work out to elevate me to a human understanding? Understanding of what? God or the devil or, or, anything else. You got to have some premises. You don't just come up and say, 'Well, understand,' and you don't know what you're.., to trying to understand. You don't do it that way.
Now in this school, being the dean of it myself.., and when I say that I don't say it boastingly. It don't mean a thing to me. It's just one of them required things, legally require, required. And so far as The Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research, so far as the name and all that kinda thing is concerned, it's no better than the rest of it out there. I'm talking about the name, people wanna know about, it ain't no bigger sounding than anything else. You got some out there sounding big as this, so it wouldn't mean any more than the Foundation of Human Understanding unless there was something in it. Now if there's something here,
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
then that's what makes the difference: understanding God, understanding your fellow man, understanding the devil, understanding God's purpose and how it's carried out. Now, out of all of the organizations out there that I've been, had the privilege of being among... I'm real serious with you tonight cause more than likely I won't be able to speak to you again for a short while. I'll tell you about that before I leave, fully.
Now look, give me a Bible somebody. Now it really doesn't make any difference whether you are a Protestant or a Catholic. Find me the New Testament there. That's what I wanna talk about. And I wanna loosen my coat because I'm gonna get serious about this thing. Do you remember the last time I spoke? We had one of them long drawn out... Do you remember that, last Sunday? Everybody got tired, me too. It was indeed two services, classes we had. Well now the occasion for that, the reason for that is because even after you read the Bible and don't understand it, you're, you're just, you're, you're worse messed up than you was in the first place. Now it doesn't make any difference whether it is a Roman Catholic, a Douay version or a King James, American Standard. It don't make no difference. All of 'em have got this... I want you to see what I'm talking about and I want you to understand cause I'm gonna try to bring the thing to you forceful enough tonight for you to comprehend, to understand, if you want to. Now I recognize the fact that you haven't had much of an opportunity before you come to school. You just didn't have no chance to learn, that's why I'm telling you. Whether it's Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, all the Bibles you got in here: it's 'The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.' They all got it. That's definitely and positively is wrong. It's wrong. This is not the New Testament, no parts of it. One reason why it isn't the New Testament, because the New Testament is not written with pen and ink and it is not written in no book. Now just no need of arguing, it's just not. Now I'm gonna prove it, prove it by your Bible. Second Corinthians, the third chapter of second Corinthians. All I'm asking you to do, just take what you're reading, don't twist it, leave it alone. Somebody get it and read. Now see where all these erroneous ideas come from, all these false doctrines, these satanic philosophies. Whoever has it, please read it. Third chapter of second Corinthians, begin with the first verse.
Reader: Do we begin again to commend
Dr. Kinley: Now the Apostle Paul says, 'Do we.' We who? The apostles and the teachers of Christ. Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
Reader: or need we
Dr. Kinley: or need we, or is it necessary
Reader: as some others
Dr. Kinley: As some others do
Reader: Epistles of
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
Dr. Kinley: Wait a minute. Paul was one of 'em that had hisself a license or a commendation from the High Priest on the road going down to Damascus. Do you wanna chew the rag about that? And he come to find out that that wasn't no good. Had the authority from the High Priest. You've read all about it. Now he said, now, 'Do we begin again to commend ourselves,' or is it necessary? It's not necessary for me to come bring you a piece of paper and say, 'Look here brethren, see here, I got the Holy Ghost.' No, just go ahead on and talk. I don't care where you got the paper from, you just start to talking, talking in front of somebody that's got the Holy Ghost. That'll tell the tale, won't it. Alright, read on.
Reader: epistles of commendation to you,
Dr. Kinley: Epistles of commendation, or recommendations to you or from you. Either way, take it to and from, pro and con. Alright, read on.
Reader: or letters of commendation from you
Dr. Kinley: Or letters of commendation. That's what you call ministers' licenses. Alright, read on.
Reader: Ye are our epistles
Dr. Kinley: Huh?
Reader: Ye are our epistles
Dr. Kinley: Ye are our... I want it plain here. Ye are our epistles. You are the epistles yourself, not the letter that Paul wrote up to Galatia and Corinth and Ephesus and what not. You are the epistles. Alright, read on.
Reader: written in our hearts
Dr. Kinley: Oh no, umm, umm. Never. Now it just don't do no good to read unless you're gonna get some understanding about the thing. Said, 'Ye are our epistles, written in our hearts.' Read.
Reader: known and read of all men
Dr. Kinley: Known. You are no stranger or no foreigner to somebody else that's got the Holy Ghost. And you don't need to think, as Dr. Jackson said, because you got off of the end of a whiskey bottle, or throwed away a plug of Brown's Mule, and quit smoking cigarettes that that's any sign to us that you be, that you're a Christian. Just open your mouth and start to talking, that'll tell the tale, 'Ye are our epistles, written in our hearts, read and known of all men.' We're reading you. Alright, read on.
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4) * 1964: YOU ARE AN EPISTLE *
Reader: For as much as you are manifestly de
Dr. Kinley: For as much then as ye are. You. Are what?
Reader: manifestly
Dr. Kinley: manifestedly
Reader: declared
Dr. Kinley: declared
Reader: to be the epistle of Christ
Dr. Kinley: to be the epistles of Christ.
Reader: ____
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute. You, yourself, are manifestly declared to be the epistles of Christ. You. So now when you're standing around with all that, well, all that hatefulness, all that diabolical and ignominious, that hateful disposition and attitude; talking about, 'I'm trying to be a Christian, I'm doing all I know.' Well if you don't know no better than that, you don't know nothing. Alright, let's take that. How does.., John said, how do you know? How do you know? He ain't asking somebody else; how do you know that you have passed from death unto life? How do you know it? Not talking about the other fellow, talking about you. How do you know? By your testimony and your hypocrisy and running your mouth? No. That ain't how you know it. This is how you know it, that you have passed from death. This back here is the ministration of death. This over here is the ministration of life. Now, how do you know that you have passed from death unto life? Just setting right where you are with your mouth closed, is when you love the brethren. Them that you can see, them that you know, them that do have the Holy Ghost, and you don't despise them, as Paul said in the first chapter of Romans, hating and despising them that are good. Ye are our epistles, written in our hearts, read and known of all men. As much then as you manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ. You're that. I better rush on, cause I got a lotta ground to cover and I got to cover it quickly and shortly too, but you got that.
Now what I'm talking about folks, so don't come back with no ignorance, I'm talking about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the Acts of Apostles, and the epistles. I'm telling you that that is not the New Testament as it is said to be in Protestant and Roman Catholic Bibles. Now is that clear? Alright, but you are the epistle of Christ, read and known of all men.
Deceiving or being fooled about something, people come out and say, 'Well, what church do you belong to?' And he wants to make it a good one, says, 'Well, I belong to the Church of God.' I'm supposed to have you then. 'I belong to the Church of Christ. Now that's supposed to make me good.' Yes, I have to agree with you, that you do belong there, but you are not there, by your testimony, because you don't know what it is; you don't know what He is, I should say. And Paul said, 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he's none of His.' And here the Church of Christ down there, they're talking about if you wasn't back there then at Pentecost, said, you didn't, you, you didn't get the Holy Ghost. Now here the Book, Paul says, 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ then he's none of His.' Well what, what's, what's, what's he talking about? He's admitted and confessed that he didn't have the Holy Ghost. And if he don't have the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost hasn't got him, he hasn't got nothing. Then this wasn't just a thing
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that happened here on Pentecost and down here at Cornelius' house and God went on back into oblivion.
This is the purpose of God, all through this age: 'This gospel shall be preached in all the world', or meaning all the age, all of this whole age. And an age is approximately 2000 years long. How in the world do you think, and where do you think that God is going to get all that great numbers the sands of the sea from, if the gospel down through the years isn't gonna be preached and if the people are not gonna have the Holy Ghost? Where is God going to get 'em from? That's what they teach out there in the Church of Christ.
LaSalle Williams: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Am I, am I right about it Dr. Williams?
LaSalle Williams: You're right about it.
Dr. Kinley: You're from there, aren't you?
LaSalle Williams: I'm a preacher from there.
Dr. Kinley: And you was around there long enough to find out something about what they teach, about 17, 18 years. Is that somewhere near right?
LaSalle Williams: You're right, Doc.
Dr. Kinley: And I'd say that the gospel was preached with the Holy Ghost too, long before Pentecost. Peter said, 'The holy men of God spake as they was moved by the Holy Ghost,' and said, 'They searching what manner of time.' Listen folks, the Spirit of Christ in them, the prophets, from Enoch on down, did signify, and preached the gospel and do with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.
Well now let's, let's, let's get this straightened out about this epistle, so we can stop saying that. Now here's the importance of it, of me telling you this. Every time you turn around in both Protestant's and Catholic's churches, they're saying, 'Well, the New Testament teaches thus and so forth and so on,' and they read something to you out of Matthew, something out of Mark, something out of Luke, something out of John. And they say, 'That's New Testament teaching.' No, that's not it. For example, Matthew 26:26, most all of 'em take the communion, except the Quakers. Say, 'Well, what do you do that for?' Then they run up in Matthew 26:26 and say this: 'Why the New, that's the New Testament teaching.' No, that's... Suppose you read the verse.
Reader: And as they were eating
Dr. Kinley: And as they were eating
Reader: Jesus took bread
Dr. Kinley: Jesus took bread
Reader: and blessed it
Dr. Kinley: and blessed it
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Reader: and brake it
Dr. Kinley: and brake it
Reader: and gave it to the disciples
Dr. Kinley: and gave it to the disciples
Reader: and said,
Dr. Kinley: and said,
Reader: take, eat
Dr. Kinley: take
Reader: eat;
Dr. Kinley: eat
Reader: this is my body
Dr. Kinley: This is my body. Now they said that that was in the New Testament. I tell you it is not in the New Testament, what he just read. And ain't that where the devil goes after, defending himself? Now what is the difference? So we can get straightened out. So we can get straightened out.
Now Jesus Christ when He come in the world, when He come in the world, His birth fulfilled the prediction of the prophet: 'A virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and thou shalt call His name Emmanuel.' Not Jesus, I said Emmanuel. And He said, 'Think not that I come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but I come to fulfill.' Listen folks. 'And verily, verily I say unto you that one jot or one tittle of the law of the law,' the old law, 'and of the prophecy shall pass away until it is all fulfilled.' Is that what He said?
Students: Right.
Student: No. He said 'shall not pass.'
Dr. Kinley: Shall not pass. That's right. Just couldn't pass. Now look, the first covenant's got to be removed before the second can come of effect. So then that means that He's got to fulfill.
Now I just got through telling you about Him being born, didn't I? Matthew 1:21, 'That's,' they say, 'That's in the New Testament.' Alright. Galatians 4:4. Don't, don't, don't leave over there where I had you reading cause I'll be back there. Somebody, whoever has it.
Reader: But when the fullness of the time was come,
Dr. Kinley: Now Matthew.., Isaiah prophesied a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son, and you know that Daniel spoke about 70 weeks from the going forth of the commandment unto Artaxerxes for this virgin to bring forth a son. Prophecy I'm talking about. Well now, He was born, born on time. Now Galatians 4:4 says He was born under the Old Testament, not the New Testament. He was born under the Old Testament, not the New Testament. And if He's gonna fulfill it, I'm trying to make it plain, so any idiot can see. Now before any of it can pass, it's all got to stand as is until it's all fulfilled, the Old Covenant, the Law, before the New Covenant or the New Testament; the Old Testament or the New Testament...
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Now He was born. You read.
Reader: But when the fullness of the time had come
Dr. Kinley: but when the fullness of time was come
Reader: God sent forth his son
Dr. Kinley: God sent forth his son
Reader: made of a woman
Dr. Kinley: made of a woman
Reader: made under the law
Dr. Kinley: made under the law, folks. Made under the law. Read.
Reader: to redeem them that were under the law
Dr. Kinley: to redeem them that were under the law
Reader: that we might receive the adoption of sons
Dr. Kinley: that we might receive the adoption of what?
Reader: sons.
Dr. Kinley: the sons, not saints. Now I believe in putting these words down here straight. Now look, right while you're there, suppose you just turn over to Hebrews 9:17.
Reader: For a testament is of force
Dr. Kinley: Now you see, we're talking about a testament. We're talking about the Old and the New Testament. Now look, when you read, start to reading in Matthew, it tells you about the virgin, tells you about His birth, tells you about His life. And you call it even the Gospel according to Saint Matthew, the Gospel according to Saint Mark, the Gospel according to Saint Luke, the Gospel according to Saint John. And then we're stupid enough to get up and say, 'Well look, I believe in the four gospels. The four gospels.' I'm.., what I'm trying to tell you is, I haven't found nothing much that has been, that you been taught that's right. Nothing. Everything is distorted.
Romans 1:16. It's right there, I can't go no further than that.
Reader: For I am not ashamed
Dr. Kinley: I am not ashamed
Reader: of the gospel
Dr. Kinley: of the four gospels
Reader: The gospel.
Dr. Kinley: Do you see? Do you see what I'm talking about? All four of those men was testifying of one and the same thing, and that was the Gospel. Paul said, 'I am not ashamed of the Gospel.' Well, why aren't you ashamed of it Paul?
Reader: for it is the power of God
Dr. Kinley: That's a conjunction, ain't that right? And, but, if, and for. Now here's the reason why I'm not ashamed of it: for it is...
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Reader: the power of God
Dr. Kinley: It is the power of God.
Reader: unto salvation
Dr. Kinley: unto salvation or deliverance. Read.
Reader: to everyone
Dr. Kinley: to everyone. Read.
Reader: that believeth
Dr. Kinley: that believeth
Reader: to the Jew first
Dr. Kinley: to the Jew first
Reader: and also to the Gentiles
Dr. Kinley: And then also to the Gentiles. Now in other words, I'm telling you this: when the gospel, which is the power of God, is preached, and you believe this gospel, it becomes effective in you and that keeps you from being ashamed. You're not talking about a God far off somewhere. Paul wanted to know Him in the power of His resurrection. That's working within me. He says, 'I'm not ashamed of it and the reason why I'm not ashamed of it, because it is the power of God to everyone, not some of 'em, but everybody that believes that God raised Christ from the dead.' This is effective enough in him to not make him ashamed.
Student Body: That's right.
TAPE 1, SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: No, I'm not ashamed. Somebody said, 'well, look here, you don't understand, I come out of college.' I don't care where you come from. Paul said, 'if though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than that which we are preaching, let him be an anathema.' I'm not ashamed of it, not being embarrassed at all.
But the way these folks carry on that call theirself got the Holy Ghost out there, I'm just as ashamed of that as I can be. And the way these preachers carry on, and all these erroneous doctrines, Satan incarnated in them physical bodies, I'm just as ashamed of it as I can be. It's embarrassing to say you're a minister, because they come a thinking right away that you're like that other fellow. And they have been so corrupt, it's just embarrassing. He's up in the pulpit there talking about... being preachers, trying to disguise themselves into being, thinking that they're preachers. They used to wear a clergy vest turned backwards, but now they done took it off and you can't tell 'em from anybody else, nobody but the Roman Catholics, cause they just done so bad: we've got up and told folks first one thing and then another. We've got up and told 'em that what you have to do is clean up and straighten out, straighten up, quit drinking whiskey; and they call that preaching. The very thing we told them that they had to stop doing in order to be a Christian, they caught us doing. They say you got to quit running around after women, and here we are running around after women. That's the way they find it. It's just embarrassing. Alright, read on.
Reader: For a testament is of force after men are dead
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Dr. Kinley: Now, wait a minute. Now Freddy, now you don't mean to tell me that we are stupid enough to let the devil stand up and tell us, in your book, that Matthew is writing about the birth and the life, and Mark is writing about the birth and the life. That's what you're reading about, and even, now remember, I told you that Jesus, the night before He died, He stood up and said there in Matthew 26:26, said, 'This is my body which is broken for you.' And you said it was in the New Testament. I just got through telling you it wasn't in there, it's not in the New Testament. I told you why, said, because the New Testament's not written with pen and ink. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, said, 'well, what is it then, if that's not the New Testament, Mr. Smart Alec, now just what is it?' That's the biography, biography of Him in the days of His flesh. Doing what? Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. Don't that make sense to you when you read the Bible? He was born under the Law to redeem them under the Law. He was born under the Law, lived under the Law, did what the Law said, jot and tittle, and none of it could pass. When I say born under the Law, or the Old Covenant, I mean He was born under the Old Testament, I mean He lived under the Old Testament, and I mean what Matthew and Mark and Luke and John is writing about here is under the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Freddy, is that clear? To redeem them that are under the Law. Now you just got, now you're working with Hebrews 9:17 and this is what you said, this is what you read, said, 'a testament...' Maybe you better read.
Reader: For a testament is of force after men are dead
Dr. Kinley: For a testament is of force after. Don't you see He's in it, walking around fulfilling the Law under the Old Covenant, under the Old Testament. And a testament is of force after death, not before men are dead. Why, you take your civil law down here. My father could be a rich man, somebody ____ ____ ____ ____, can't say he was. If my father was a rich man, as long as my father lives, his will and testament, I could not get it until after he died. Well, don't you see, don't you see he's writing about Him while He was living? See how the devil distorted that?
And He said this, here's something else He said that's not there. He said that Jesus taking bread that night and brake it and gave it to them, and He said, 'take and eat.' Now the devil does this, goes back over there to prove that the Lord's Supper is right, and Christ ate. Now look folks, not one Gentile was present. And He certainly was alive that night. And a testament cannot come of force until after He's dead. Now you can argue all you want to, but that's the straight of it. And you're forced to conclude that you were taught wrong, that is if you're gonna accept the truth. And as long as you don't accept the truth in its reality, you are going to have, I will assure you, a condemned conscience. There's no way out of it. Testament is of force after men are dead. Read.
Reader: otherwise
Dr. Kinley: Now while He's walking around, otherwise
Reader: it is of no strength
Dr. Kinley: There ain't nothing to it.
Reader: at all, while the testator lives
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Dr. Kinley: There's no strength at all while the testator lives. You'll never, if your father made a will ____ ____ go down to the bank. It ain't gonna do you a bit of good, you can't get a thing, you can't get it until after he dies. Go to all the courts in the country and you can't get it until after his decease. It's of force after he's dead. The will becomes effective after he's dead. Now see where the devil told you wrong about it?
Now we talked about it written with pen and ink. We also said you was the epistle of Christ, well now let's see who said that. This is what they done, when I begin to teach. That's the reason why this school was founded is because the devil will not take ____ out there and pass his judgement. Now he's forced the founding of this school. We have a legal privilege to tell you the truth. Now they have said this to me, 'Well, if you're so smart, why don't you come on over here among us and help us to learn something.' Well, look, we've tried to break into 'em for 33 years. They won't stand for it. Even some of you all, somewhere around 30 of 'em, went down there on Adams Street and tried to break in the Church of God, I mean, the Church of Christ. Went down there and they said ba.., water baptism was right and went down there and took our bathing clothes and offered to get baptized, we knew there wasn't nothing to it, to get baptized, and they wouldn't stand for that. Well, one excuse was they didn't, they wasn't prepared to baptize that night, they didn't have the pool ready. Well look, (STUDENT BODY and DR. KINLEY LAUGH) that don't make sense Rip. It don't make no kinda sense. What business have you got going out here and preaching the gospel unprepared. (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) Do you see what I'm talking about? Unprepared. You better get prepared before you start. Now do you see through that?
Now, now do you see through that? Now let's see now, somebody said, 'Well now, who said that?' Don't forget you're still reading in the third chapter of second Corinthians, too. Told you not to leave there. Read. Ye are our epistles written in our hearts.
Reader: read and known of all men
Dr. Kinley: read and know of all men. Read on.
Reader: manifestly declared
Dr. Kinley: manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ. Alright, read on.
Reader: written in our hearts, read and know of all men
Dr. Kinley: written in our hearts, read and know of all men. Read on.
Reader: ministered by us
Dr. Kinley ministered by us. Alright.
Reader: written not with ink
Dr. Kinley: Oh, oh, now, Doc, now look, now you ought to read better than that.
Reader: That's what it says.
Dr. Kinley: Now that's what he says it says. Is that the way your Bible reads? Written not with ink. Well, if it wasn't written with ink, how was it written?
Reader: but with the spirit of the living God
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Dr. Kinley: Now can't you see that if you don't have the Holy Spirit there ain't no writing in you? And if if was like they said, Dr. Williams down there, Paul said they, that the Holy Spirit had made them able ministers of the New Covenant, of the New Testament. Our sufficiency is not of ourselves, now with that Holy Ghost writing in there. Writing what? Writing the New Testament in you. The Old Covenant or the Old Testament, say look folks, I'm telling you what's in the Book, the Old Covenant was written in tables of stone and placed in the Ark of the Covenant. That's where God told Moses to put it. And that placing the tables of stone in the Ark of the Covenant was typical. If, if this was written by the finger of God, it was typical and pointing to Him writing in fleshly tables of your heart, and that's without a pen and ink, because this one was written with the finger of God, and you just read 'written with the Spirit.' Is that what you read?
Reader: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Alright, read.
Reader: not in tables of stone
Dr. Kinley: Say, Doc, wait a minute, suppose you just look over there at the, at that New Testament thing, the first chapter of Luke. And the first, the first verse, first chapter of Luke. Now we're gonna get this right, straightened out.
Reader: For as much as many have taken in hand
Dr. Kinley: Now as much as many have taken in hand
Reader: to set forth in order a declaration of
Dr. Kinley: to set forth in order a declaration
Reader: of those things which are most surely believed among us. Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word
Dr. Kinley: That's right, and as much so... Repeat what you just read.
Reader: even as they delivered them unto us,
Dr. Kinley: No, I mean the first verse.
Reader: For as much as
Dr. Kinley: For as much as the other apostles. They had written. That encouraged Luke to do some writing with some pen and ink. Now that's what I'm after. Now the apostles, they was writing with pen and ink, but now Paul said the New Covenant, or the New Testament, is not written with pen and ink, but is written with... And I want to show you that Luke was writing, Luke was writing, Matthew was writing, Mark is writing. Now you got that all straight? Now, Jeremiah 31:31. Read.
Reader: Behold, the days come, saith the Lord
Dr. Kinley: Behold, the days come
Reader: that I will make a New Covenant
Dr. Kinley: That man said. That's the way they put it on me. Alright, read.
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Reader: Behold, the days come, saith the Lord
Dr. Kinley: Behold, the days come, saith the Lord
Reader: that I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel
Dr. Kinley: that I will make a New Covenant or a New Testament
Reader: with the house of Israel
Dr. Kinley: with the house of Israel
Reader: and with the house of Judah
Dr. Kinley: and with the house of Judah
Reader: not according to the covenant
Dr. Kinley: Now look. Say, Doc, listen, now I'm not gonna make one according to the one that I made with them when I took you.., and brought 'em out of the wilderness. I'm not gonna make one like that. Well, what kind was that then? That was the first test.., the covenant stood only, if you don't believe it's in the Book, I will read, the first covenant, or the first testament stood only in meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinance until the time of the reformation. Now God says, I'm not gonna make another one like that. 'Well, why, God?' Cause they broke this one back here. Now here comes the hypocrite, by and by, coming up here, doing the things that was done under the law and under the Old Covenant: washing feet, keeping the sabbath.
Yes, you keep the sabbath, you wash feet too, but you don't do it that way, do it the new way. Jesus said to the disciples, Peter and them, in the 13th chapter of Saint John, when He was washing the feet, Peter did know that He was washing his feet there with that basin of water, and He said to Peter, said, 'You don't know what I do now, but you shall know hereafter.' What do you mean? Hereafter you'll know that I'm the Word of God washing your feet. And if I don't wash you, the Word of God don't wash you, you certainly will not be clean. Then Paul said, in the third chapter of Titus, in the fifth verse: 'it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost.' Is that something like Paul told Titus? It's not by that. Now, you are not gonna get anywhere with God by doing anything at all that was under the other covenant. And there ain't no need of you setting up and lying on God like that, claiming you done merited to earn the Holy Ghost and that you're obeying Christ and you're obeying God. No you're not. That's doctrine of men you're obeying. Alright, read.
Reader: But this shall be the Covenant
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute now. You might, say, 'Well, what is a covenant, or what is a testament?' 'Who said so?' Some of 'em went out and said, 'That man said,' because I taught 'em something contrary to what they been taught all their life, then they went out and put it on me and said I said it.
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These erroneous doctrines. That's what you got. And they beat me up for it too; ____ ____. Punched out at me. I told you, I come to tell you the truth about it. I didn't come... This is not a social gathering. This is not a ritualistic performance. Preach the truth. Somebody said, 'Well, I don't believe it.' Paul said, 'well, what if some don't believe? Does that make it of none effect?' The purpose of God will not miscarry just because you don't believe it. He's got a place for all them that don't believe. And you remember Paul said, 'I'm not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, to the Jew first and then also to the Gentile. If you don't wanna believe it, it don't mean a thing to you. Get the point? Believe what? Believe the gospel; the reality of the thing. 'Sure, I know, but that ain't the way I was taught.' I understand that. 'Well, all of my folks was brought up like that.' Um hum. All of these folks was brought up too. And God chose all about ____, and God killed every last one of 'em, ____ from Joshua. Is that right?
Student Body: Yes sir.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. And look, folks, the angels that sinned in heaven, God cast them out. John said there in Revelation. Dragon was cast out and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven. And now all, after all these folks got ____, and all them that sinned were cast out of heaven. How do you think you're gonna get by? Can you explain that? Get the point? Now there's no need of you running up, running up in God's face and you're going to push your way in and crowd your way in.
Up, jump aboard a cloud, as he says out there in Eagle Rock. The preacher out there preaching, they wanted us, for me to help get him up, back up in the world. He sold his church and all the folks got down and sold his church too. Now you're sitting up out there. You heard the man. He sold the church. Sold the church. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Got himself a bad reputation. Got down and hadn't preached around ten years and now here we are trying to pry him up, get him back up, his reputation back up. And there he was out there talking about getting on a planet and waving to somebody else on another planet. Say, 'Well, where you going there?' Say, 'I'm going to the fellowship meeting.' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's the honest to God truth. The man did say it. Now you all were setting right there in the church. Now that means he's going to heaven, fellowship meeting. Now when I got up and I got to preaching, he was.., I'm supposed to be helping him up. He's supposed to come down here and preach, after he got through with all that. And I made sure, 'Yeah, you're welcome, come on down, sure, come on down.' You all know all about it. The man ain't, hasn't been here yet. I said, 'Well, I'll tell him about the fellowship meeting.' I told him that Paul said in the twelfth chapter of Hebrews, 'Ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched as a natural thing, but ye are come unto God and unto Jesus and unto the heavens.' Now are come, not, not going, not going to it, and to an innumerable company of angels and to the general assembly and the church of the firstborn, whose names are enrolled in heaven. Now that's where we are. We have come to God. You say, 'God is spirit.' Well, we've come to the Spirit. We've come to Jesus. 'Jesus stepped aboard a cloud and He got on home.' Folks, we got ____ somehow or other. Ain't that what your Book says? That you
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are come unto God and you are come unto the heavenly Jerusalem and unto Jesus. Ain't that what it says?
Student Body: Yeah. It's exactly what it says.
Dr. Kinley: And to an innumerable company of angels? Now, where is this place you're gonna to ____ ____ ____ bring fire to, that these preachers is promising ____ ____ 'Come on let's get started and go to heaven tonight.' Somebody over there, setting up a altar, '____ ____ ____ ____ Holy Ghost, you better quit meddling with my religion.
My mother and my father, they died in the thing and they went on to heaven. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.' Well, now listen, now your head is not so hard that God can't soften it, cause as Dr. Jackson said here, Paul said, 'As I live, saith the Lord.' Who said that?
Student Body: The Lord.
Dr. Kinley: Said that in Corinthians. 'As I live?' And he's quoting back yonder, 'Saith the Lord, as I live, saith the Lord.' Who said that? The Lord to me. 'Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess Christ to the glory of God,' or to the satisfaction of God. Now listen, you have to do it anyhow, you just might as well break down and do it now. Paul said, 'For this cause I and my shall give honor and glory to Him.' Then and now. Well somebody said, 'I got too much starch there.' All ____ ____ it'll break up. You just gonna have to do it just the same, so sooner or later, so you just might as well let it be sooner. You see my point? See how mean a preacher I am? How positive, dogmatic. Read.
Reader: but this shall be the covenant that I will make
Dr. Kinley: But this, now this is it. Now listen, if God said this is it, then this has got to be it. Don't put it on me. This, God said this is it. Alright, read.
Reader: that I will make with the house of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Now this is what I'm, this is what I'm gonna, this is the covenant or agreement that I'm gonna make with the house of Israel.
Reader: after those days
Dr. Kinley: Now you just read in Hebrews 9 and 17, that a testament is of force after men are dead. Now here's Jeremiah prophesying about that same covenant, said that this shall be the testament, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They're not making the testament, this is God that's making the testament or the covenant agreement. This shall be the testament that I will make. Got that straight? Alright, read on.
Reader: after those days
Dr. Kinley: After the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ
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Reader: saith the Lord
Dr. Kinley: What else?
Reader: I will put my law in their inward parts
Dr. Kinley: Now look, now wait a minute, Doc. Is this..? Did you go to school too? Now look here, give me a, give me a Book. Now, who'd you say, said they was gonna do that? Read.
Reader: after those days, saith the Lord
Dr. Kinley: Now after those days, saith the Lord
Reader: I will put
Dr. Kinley: Now, He's gonna do that. Now can't you, are you so stupid that you can't see up there that Matthew wrote that? Are you so stupid you can't see that Mark wrote that? Are you so stupid you can't see that John wrote that? Get the point? Now God's gonna do this. God is gonna write it in their heart, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John, not Paul, not Peter. I will put my law in their hearts, not with pen and ink, but in your heart. Now listen, if God said that, it don't make no difference what the devil says about that what God means. Alright, read.
Reader: I will put my law in their inward parts and I will write it in their hearts.
Dr. Kinley: I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts.
Reader: and I will be their God
Dr. Kinley: And I, then I'm gonna be their God.
Reader: and they shall be my people
Dr. Kinley: and then they shall be my people. Read on.
Reader: and they teach no more every man his neighbor
Dr. Kinley: They shall, won't be no necess.., won't be no need of teaching every man his neighbor, cause you can't teach nohow, Dr. Jackson told you that. What we need to do is concentrate and look at what we're talking about and not just set up and be gullible. He told you that the, Jesus said when the Comforter is come, which is the Holy Ghost, He will teach you, He will guide you. You don't think that's that way? Give me a, give me a, give me a couple of minutes. Hold what you got there. Look at Saint John. Just look at it. 14:26.
Reader: But the Comforter
Dr. Kinley: But the Comforter
Reader: which is the Holy Ghost
Dr. Kinley: which is the Holy Ghost
Reader: whom the Father will send
Dr. Kinley: whom the Father will send
Reader: in my name
Dr. Kinley: in my name
Reader: he shall teach you
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Dr. Kinley: Huh?
Reader: he shall teach you.
Dr. Kinley: Oh no. No, no. It can't be like that. I'm the teacher, you're the teacher, reverend is the teacher. Yes, Reverend is the teacher, but you got the wrong reverend. Ain't but one: that's the Reverend God. Reverend, he don't know what a reverend is. Now you see I'm showing you how we distort and twist and mess up this Bible. How the devil blindfolds us, how we just set up there as ____ as ____ ____ and got it all, in all kinds of confusion. Now, if you went out there in Christendoom and you tried to, to tell them just what I have told you here tonight about this, almost everybody out there'd say you were wrong.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: You'd have an awful time trying to find somebody to tell you you're right. The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, He'll teach, and then what?
Reader: teach you all things
Dr. Kinley: No, no, teach you some things.
Reader: All.
Dr. Kinley: Teach you all things. All things relegated to what? The purpose of God, His plan through the dispensations and ages. Teach You all things. What else?
Reader: and bring all things to your remembrance,
Dr. Kinley: He didn't need to make no record or nothing write down, and say, 'here keep this as a commemoration.' He didn't need to do that. He didn't write nothing with no, no pen and ink, 'you need this.' No guide. Why? Cause He's gonna put the Sp..., Holy Ghost in him, write His law in his heart. He's gonna be his God, and then He's gonna, they're gonna be His people. And then when the Comforter is come, He's gonna do the teaching, and He's gonna be the guide, and He's gonna be the lead, head, listen, He's gonna make the intercession because you don't know how to pray as you ought, but the Holy Spirit will make the intercession for you according to the purpose and the will of God. If you don't think that's in the Book, I'll read. Say, why don't we start reading our Bibles once in awhile at home. Catch up with some of this stupidity and ignorance. I've read everything out of the Book, haven't I? Alright, read.
Reader: And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor
Dr. Kinley: They shall teach no more every man his neighbor
Reader: and every man his brother, saying
Dr. Kinley: and every man his brother
Reader: know the Lord
Dr. Kinley: saying, know the Lord.
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Reader: for they shall all know me
Dr. Kinley: Every last one that has got the Holy Ghost obeys God and got the Holy Spirit in him, that's what teaches him. That's the reason why when you open your big mouth, I open my big mouth, if the Holy Ghost ain't in there, I'm reading, 'And they're going to know everybody,' and that's without a piece of paper too, or your license, cause it's the Holy Ghost that does the teaching. Why don't we give God just a little credit? Wouldn't you think so? Now you see the difference? He'll teach.
Look, I want you to do something. Now, we talked about them epistles. And we talked about the New Covenant, where it's written in the heart. Said it wasn't written with pen and ink. We said that you are our epistles. Now here we turn over and show you.., we don't know nothing about the Bible nohow.
Now here's John on the Isle of Patmos in the 20th chapter of Revelation. Somebody talking about the great white throne of judgement, great big something up there in the sky. There it is up there. And here we come up to it, call out there every idle word; in other words, there's gonna a argument up there. You call that the judgement, white throne of judgement. Now here's what we don't see: we don't see that we're in the judgement now. And when did the judgement start? On the Day of Pentecost. And Peter said that all the house of Israel know for sure, know this for sure. Now, he said, listen close folks, in his epistle he said this, Peter, said, 'Now if judgement first begin with us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the Gospel?' Paul writing and talking about it, sixth chapter of first Corinthians. We oughta read once in a while, at least try to understand. 'Dare any of you having a matter against another to take 'em before the law of the unjust. Don't you know that the saints shall judge the world?' I'm telling you all the time. Well now, somebody said, 'Now wait a minute there, you got that all twisted up, the New Testament teaches this, here's Matthew 7:1. Jesus said judge not for fear ye may be judged. So whatsoever you make judgement on somebody else, well it's measured back to you again. Jesus said that. Now didn't He say that?' Yes, He did. And it is in there. They didn't have nothing to judge nobody with.
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
It don't make me read wrong. All you can say is ____ ____ ____. Alright read.
Reader: And I saw the dead
Dr. Kinley: John said. Now listen, I'm talking about these epistles in the Book, remember, I just got through telling you about, I want you to listen at me, John said, 'I saw an angel come down from heaven having the key to the bottomless pit and the great chain in hand and laid hold on that old serpent, the devil, and bound him for a thousand years.' Thousand years, I'm just trying to cut it up short, not ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ point out. But when the thousand years was finished, Satan was loosed out of his prison and went forth upon the earth to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog. Now do you mean you're setting up here and telling me you haven't heard about the
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Ecumenical Council? And when did he go, ____ ____ ____, Jerusalem, I mean physical Jerusalem, which is an allegory of Jerusalem above? Isn't that where Pope went to. Trace the footsteps of Christ and reached out there and grabbed a handful of them ____ right out there in the garden. Took a plane out because he's called the prince of the power of the air? He's the first one ever did leave that Vatican, first Pope loosed out of his prison, the Vatican. John said here, ____ ____ what we're talking about, where you're reading, is loosed after the thousand years was finished, to go out and deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. All this junk that you got out here that the Pope is teaching is nothing but doctrines of the devils, and they're teaching you all kinds of erroneous lies about it. You get it now?
And then what happened? Said, then fire came down from God out of heaven. And John said, 'I', listen, 'I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God.' Now I'm gonna interpret this for you. 'Stand before God and the books were opened.' What books? Didn't you just read over there a while ago where it said that you were the epistle? You are an epistle. You are an epistle. You are our epistle. All of you are epistles. Do you see that now? Now here we are, all are together. And if you put us all together, if you put us all together, then what have you got? You got a book. It says the book was opened and the dead was judged out of those things was written in the book, and whosoever was not found in the Book of Life, the Lamb... Let me get this straight too, while I'm at it, because Roman Catholics are that, when you go to hell, there's no absolution for them. You can't get out of there. But it says death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them. Purgatory'd be emptied up. There never was a place, the sea and everything else, you got death, death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them. I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God.
TAPE 2, SIDE 1:
Dr. Kinley: The prophets, the major and the minor prophets, that's a lotta stupidity too. There ain't no such thing as major and minor prophets. Everything you have been taught from scratch is wrong. If it is God talking through Jeremiah or Isaiah or Nehemiah or Nahum or something, whatever, when he gets to the end of what God is saying to him, that's the end of it. Neither one is greater than one or the other one. No, we say, 'Isaiah is one of the major, major prophets, the silver tongued orator. He's greater than Nahum or Habakkuk or some of 'em.' And yet and still, they're both prophesying of what God is showing 'em and telling 'em to prophesy, and when they get through doing with God, then they stop right there. If they went any further than that, then they'd be a liar and be false prophets.
So now the dead, when he seen that book opened and the dead were judged out of those things. Now here He is saying.., I just got through telling you, you're setting up here in the judgement now. Now look folks, we're going home but I just want to show you how stubborn, how bullheaded, how hateful and hellish the devil really is; and then dogmatic about it too; not consciously, not realizing that you're going to have to come up to it anyhow; and not realizing, not realizing, fully confident, and conscience condemned all the time, feel within yourself you're not what you ought to be. You feel it, try to hide it, try to cover it up, try to hypocrite
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around, trying to make somebody think that you're a Christian, try to make somebody think that you're a saint and by your testimony, 'I belong to the church.'
Let me say one more thing. The third chapter of the first epistle of Paul to Timothy says this, said, 'It's the spirit speaketh expressly in latter days, many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of the devil.' They'll depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. ____ ____. ____ ____ he's says he's gonna be holy, ____ ____ ____ seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, now you listen, 'commanding to abstain from meats and forbidding to marry.' Now look, you don't mean to tell me that you're so stupid until.., here you know good and well the Roman Catholic Church out down yonder forbid you to eat meat on a Friday. And they do forbid the priesthood to marry; in other words, they teach the celibacy of the priesthood. Now what are you gonna do, set out there and read it and then be that stupid? ____ ____. Look back at the priesthood back here. Zachariah was a priest, high priest, he certainly was the father of John the Baptist. Aaron certainly did, was the father of Nadab and Abihu. And all of those priests married. ____ ____ in the Roman Catholic Church allowed them to marry back then, but they stopped. What'd they stop 'em for? We're in the last days. Now you mean to tell me you're gonna set up there and chew the rag and argue and carrying on like that, right in the face of Truth? You're gonna deny now and say that Matthew wrote the New Testament, when it's not written with pen and ink, it's not written in that, says, 'you are the epistles.' Now are you gonna stand up there now in judgement, 'and the book was opened and another book,' the epistles all will be opened and here you are ____ ____ first begin with the Jew first, and then to the Gentile. Now are you gonna ____ ____. Then you're gonna have to ____ ____ ____. You're not getting by with anything so why not just break out and humble yourself before God?
Now I'm sorry and I apologize for keeping you but you won't be bothered with me for a few days. I'm fixing to leave and go back to the state of Ohio tomorrow night at 10:35 from International Airport. I told you this when I came here before and I've come back, so I want to let you know I'm going out. I wouldn't dare go off and then not tell you anything about it in advance. So I'm going back as I promised them I would do. Now the class and the school is growing up there when I left and they didn't want me to come back then and neither did I want to come just then, but we have some urgent business here and so now they want us to come back to the state of Ohio. And I'll go there and stay for three, or maybe four weeks, at the least, probably be there four weeks; in other words, I'm not the boss. And I'll have to stay there, just like what God told Paul up in Corinth when he was about to depart, said, 'Don't leave here cause I have much people here.' God had much people there.
Then you're arguing around about baptizing, about Paul baptizing, he didn't baptize nobody but Stephanas and Gaius and Crispus, out of all them much people. He said, I didn't baptize any of 'em, and all of them was Jews. What'd he baptize them for? The same purpose he circumcised Timothy and.., to get them people, persuade 'em on in. Did a lotta things. He was a good clown, ain't that right?
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(STUDENT BODY SINGS "BLESSED BE THE TIE THAT BINDS";
MODERATOR READS DOXOLOGY: Jude 23)
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ADMONISHMENT AND ENCOURAGEMENT TO COME TO SCHOOL
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Los Angeles, California
originally recorded by Burbank Mitchell on reel to reel tape recorder
transferred to audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog Number: 65.0926
1984
originally transcribed by Greg Prestas
originally proofread by Gerry Rothstein
1997
first proofreading: Mary Colucci
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Susan Ameigh
fourth proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fifth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
First Speaker: Dr. Dewey McCoy.
Moderator: At this time, the founder and dean of the school, Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you very much. Friends, I don't want to preach a great long sermon to you this morning. You've already heard the gospel expressed in its simplicity. I've just simply got to confirm ____ and to admonish and encourage you to come out to school the nights and the Sundays and times that we have an opportunity to hear the gospel preached in its simplicity and in its reality. Now you can't afford, with what is going on in the world today, you can not afford to miss these meetings. Just can't afford it, because Jesus said, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world or in all of this age, down through these 2000 years; the gospel of the kingdom. Now with all the confusion that there is in the world... Now this is biblical proof for it to be here. If it wasn't here the Bible wouldn't be right. Paul said, perilous times shall come in the last days. And
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Jesus, He talked about many false prophets, not a few, just many of 'em, and there's many of 'em out here.
Now, I'm saying to you in the year 1931 God have me a vision and revelation. This is my 34th year that I have been preaching, and teaching, and showing you by illustration, by charts, and by nature itself, and by yourself even now ____, every kinda way to confirm the existence of God. Now, I went into it chronologically, allegorically, figuratively, symbolically, metaphorically, political; I, I went into it every kinda way you can go into it. And then I say nobody, now in 34 years I've met some of the most brilliant academically trained men there is in this country, and nobody has ever been able to refute this and to dispute it. Now there's a lotta people that don't understand it.
I noticed Dr. McCoy, how hard he struggled here and I'm just as sure as I was sitting on that seat that somebody didn't understand many of the ramifications and all that he was trying to bring out there about many things. Why he had a great big mouthful to chew there, and he was trying to chew it by a definite pattern; showing the purpose of God through the dispensations and ages and how it repeated itself over and over again. Then not only that, he took you to show you that you yourself was made in the likeness and image of God. And he tried to show every kind of way, mathematically, chronologically... Now look, now listen, now, unless you know it this way, you can't have no faith. How can you have faith and confidence in something you don't know nothing about? That's a physical and mental impossibility. Now, just getting up talking about God, and talking about the devil, and talking about Moses, and talking about Jesus, and so forth and so on like that, they do that all over the world, but when it comes to showing the purpose of God, and how it, it is carried out and how it functions through the dispensations and ages, now then the devil don't understand that. Now, you're gonna have to understand that before you can see any reality.
Now, I, I'm go... I wanna mention this too, while I'm on my feet. Now, as Dr. McCoy went through this, talked about Israel coming out of Egypt, putting the blood on the sides and the lentil of the door, and passing through the waters of the Red Sea, and then they went into the wilderness and they stayed there 40 days, 40 years, 40 days, I meant 40 days or 40 years; one day for a year in prophetic time. You have to understand that, too. That's Numbers, what?
Student Body: 14:34
Dr. Kinley: 14:34, and Ezekiel. It's got to be confirmed by the Law and by the prophets. Now then, when you read over here in Matthew, over here in Matthew, I'm just trying to show you how it is, when you read over here in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, about Jesus did this and Jesus did that and Jesus did the other, and so forth and so on, now just reading it without any understanding; that don't make, that don't, that won't help you a bit; in other words that will just confuse you. For example, He was, fed the multitudes. Well, what did He feed 'em for? Then He went on up there in the mountain. What did He do that for? Then He went up to the temple. What did He do that for? Then He left the temple and
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said, now there was a house that's left unto you desolate. Then He went on to say, you shall not see me henceforth until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. What did He do that for? Now, we're not arguing around about He didn't do this and that and the other, whereas the Bible says He did it all. That's not the argument. The argument is, is what did He do that for? Why? Somebody said, 'Well, He's setting up for ____ ____ ____.' No. I beg your pardon. He wasn't setting
up nothing. Now that's what Rome is telling you. And they're out now trying to find out whether now some holiness transubstantiation, trans - sub - stan - tiation, that means the Lord's supper, to you that don't understand, and they'll go down to Matthew and then say, 'He did this this way and He did that and He took up the chalice and He broke the bread,' and so forth and so on. Now listen, don't wanna argue about that. He did do that. Then they said, 'He instituted it.' Oh no. Did no such a thing, unless He don't know what He's talking about. Wanna charge Him with being ignorant, too. Listen folks, what He was doing all the time that He was in the world from the time that He was born on clear on until He left out of the world, He was fulfilling what was in the Law and in the Prophesy, not instituting nothing. And that's a fact. He wasn't setting no example for you to go by.
Somebody says, 'Well, look here ____, I wanna follow in the footsteps of Christ.' Now, heaven was searched and earth was searched, wasn't nobody able to do that. (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGH)
(PAUSE IN THE REEL RECORDING)
Dr. Kinley: Somebody says, 'Now listen here, aren't you one of these negro leaders?'. No, I beg your pardon, I'm not a negro leader. No, not by any means. I come into the world to preach the gospel to everybody, not just a bunch of negroes. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) I'm just giving it to you straight like it is.
Somebody says, 'Well, you wouldn't understand, you let your race down.' No, I beg your pardon. I don't belong to this thing down here that you're talking about. I belong to the heavenly. Abraham, he went, walked the length and breadth of Canaan's land, crossways, and backwards, and forwards, and he had this testimony: that he was looking for a country whose founder and maker or builder was God. And he didn't so much as set his foot on the promised land. There's nothing in the world that's important to me, not in this one.
Then somebody said, 'Well, look here,' said, 'I'm not going down there Tuesday and Thursday night, all they're gonna talk about is that pattern, that tabernacle anyhow.' Said, 'I'm going out this Friday night. That's pay night. I'm going to go and get my groceries.' I almost know each and every one of you, (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) I almost know you. That's the point ____. Now, you run along down there, it's all right for you to be there cause you're learned. 'I've already learned that. I'm up to date.' Said, 'I'm tired of 'em reading over there, talking about going to the Law and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this route it's because there is no light... I'm sick and tired of hearing about Moses coming out of Egypt, and being baptized in the Red Sea and passing on into the
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wilderness, and staying in there 40 years, and Joshua's picking 'em up and carrying them on across river Jordan and into Canaan's land. I'm sick and tired of it!' Said, 'I want you to read sometime to me out of the New Testament.' Alright now you won't let me read over there in what you call the Old Testament. Tried to read about, that what's in the Old Testament over here in what you call the New Testament. Now here's John on the island of Patmos, 21st chapter of Revelation, that oughta be far enough over into it, don't you think so. The 21st chapter of Revelation. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Read a little bit out of that ____ ____ ____ mercy. I just wanna show you how stupid we are. Think we're smart.
Reader: And I saw a new heaven
Dr. Kinley: And I saw a new heaven
Reader: and a new earth
Dr. Kinley: and a new earth
Reader: for the first heaven
Dr. Kinley: for the first heaven
Reader: and the first earth was passed away
Dr. Kinley: and the first earth was passed away
Reader: and there was no more sea
Dr. Kinley: and there was no more sea
Reader: And I, John
Dr. Kinley: And I, John
Reader: saw the Holy City
Dr. Kinley: saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem
Reader: coming down from God out of heaven
Dr. Kinley: coming down from God out of heaven
Reader: prepared as a bride adorned for her husband
Dr. Kinley: prepared as a bride adorned for her husband
Reader: And I heard a great voice out of heaven
Dr. Kinley: And I heard a great voice out of heaven
Reader: saying
Dr. Kinley: saying
Reader: Behold
Dr. Kinley: Behold
Reader: the tabernacle of God
Dr. Kinley: Oh no, man ____. What's the matter with you? See the point? Behold, tabernacle of God is with men. Read.
Reader: and he will dwell with them
Dr. Kinley: and he will dwell with them
Reader: and they shall be his people
Dr. Kinley: and they shall be his people
Reader: and God shall be with them
Dr. Kinley: and God shall be with them
Reader: and be their God
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ADMONISHMENT AND ENCOURAGEMENT TO COME TO SCHOOL
Dr. Kinley: And be their God. Hold it. Now, if you understood what you were reading... You just started back there in the 21st chapter. Now, there's John out there on the Isle of Patmos, confirming this that was back here, and he said, 'I John saw a new heaven and a new earth.' Then he went on to talk about that the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea. Don't you see John's life was prepared to be on the isle? When you say isle, that means it wa.., a island's surrounded by water. Is that what it is? Then if that's true, then don't you see that Moses back here, didn't he see the earth surrounded by water in the beginning of his vision? Didn't he see the waters pass up? Wasn't standing up by no Moses, was it? God divided the waters above from the waters beneath and let the dry land appear. Now John's life was preserved to be on the Isle of Patmos. Couldn't be killed, couldn't die. And listen, the Catholics said, 'Don't ____ ____, banish him to the Isle of Patmos.' I beg your pardon. Now, we're not trying to set up no human possibilities, figure out nothing. Now then, he's looking down and he sees Israel here coming out of Egypt, and then he sees 'em pass through the Red Sea, and he said the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea.
Now, this is the 21st chapter of Revelation. You don't want me reading it over yonder. And what it all amounts to is nothing else but just the purpose of God just repeating itself over and over through the dispensations and ages. That's what's going on now, nothing else but a repetition. The end was declared from the beginning, there's nothing new under the sun. Takes that to, for God to prove Himself.
Then he said, he heard a voice from heaven saying. Wasn't Moses up here in, this taberna... up here in this mountain? Was, wasn't he up there?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: If Jesus gotta fulfill all these things, don't you see He's got to go up in a mountain somewhere? And if God fed them people down there before, 6 days before they went up, can't you see that if He's gonna fulfill it, He's got to feed the multitudes? If there was a passover down in Egypt and they ate lamb down in Egypt, now if He's gonna, if, if He's gonna come, now this is where the thing is instituting here, He's got to come along and He's got to eat the passover. And you going in the 26th chapter of Matthew and arguing with me about whether He did or not. You and your stupidity: you said it was the New Testament. The New Testament is not written with pen and ink. The first Testament or the first Covenant was written on tables of stone. The New Testament, Matt... God said in Jeremiah 31:31, said after those days into their hearts will I put my law and I'll do the writing, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, what God wrote in the tables of stone with His finger.
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Now, we're trying to tell you about the reality of God. We're not playing church. We don't claim to be building no church, and we're not trying to get the thing together either. Ecumenical Council gathering them all back together. Coming over here, the Pope coming over here the 4th of October to speak to the U.N. Now, you look down in your Bible and you don't know what it's all about. Way over yonder in Jerusalem. You're reading about it all in your Bible and you haven't got, you don't know nothing about it; timing or nothing else. They're just stupid as they can be. Don't understand fulfillment of prophecy any more so they understand what Jesus was doing. They're talking about Him instituting, the first tabernacle stood only in meats, and drinks, and di.., are you listening at me? Diverse washings, and carnal ordinances. When.., they don't even know what carnal ordinance is. Carnal ordinance means a worldly thing, it means a physical, it means a material, not spiritual. And that's all that Israel had back here. That was under the first Covenant. Now all that had to be removed before you could get into the new Covenant, or the New Testament, and God said He wasn't going to make one like He did the one before. So what are you worrying around about how He did this and that and the other, whether He washed feet and did this, that, and the other? He did many things that you don't have no record of in your Book in the fulfillment of the Law and in the Prophets, so that you could come out there and sit down and look at it, and read it, and understand and comprehend that we're in the spirit of the thing now.
Now somebody's saying, 'Well, I expect Him pretty soon to jump down through the clouds.' Well do you know the Seventh Day Adventists thought that He'd jump out of the sky in 1844, and when it didn't happen they said, 'Well, we made an awful mistake here,' said, 'instead of Him coming out of a, a, a Most Holy Place, or coming down through the clouds, He was just entering in and out of the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place.' So they had to change their story. Jehovah's Witnesses said, 'No, we disagree with that.' God said He would punish 'em seven times over here in the, in the Canaan's land if they didn't obey Him and keep His commandments. They said the time of the Gentiles begin in 606 BC. And you figure 2520 years or seven times 360, and you got 1914, and they said that Christ come in 1914. Don't start no arguments with me, I'm well read. Said He'd come in 1914. Now if you look in your Book, the fourth chapter of the first epistle of John, you'll find that Christ is a quickening spirit, and He never come in no 1914. They just don't understand what it's all about. Confused. Until you read over here, reading on in the Bible said Christ in you is your only hope; Paul said, Christ in you is the only hope of glory. It says here in the first epistle of John, fourth chapter, Beloved, believe not every spirit, every spirit that testifies that Jesus Christ is come, is come, that's present tense. Is that somewhere near right? Every spirit that testifies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh... God has poured His spirit out on you. And Dr. McCoy said on the Day of Pentecost, which was the sixth day of June, AD 33, very early in the morning, about nine o'clock in the morning. We know when the thing happened, and that wasn't in 1844, and it wasn't in 1914. Quickening spirit.
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And everyone that's born of the spirit, he's not dib dabbling around with the things that's done under the law. John out there on the Isle of Patmos said, 'I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, John, heard a voice from heaven saying, behold the taber...' Now that's far enough over in what you call the New Testament. He talked about the Red Sea. That's nothing but a confirmation and a repetition. The first heaven and the first earth: There's three heavens: first, second, and third. Paul said, I knew a man, about 14 years ago who was exalted up to the third heaven, heard things impossible for a man to utter. Alright. Now the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea.
You're reading in Revelation. Revelation means the thing's revealed. Alright now, then after that he said, there in the 22nd chapter.. We are getting over clear on over in the back end of your book. If the thing don't work from back to back, or from Genesis to Reve.., it ain't no good. It ain't no good. Alright now.
Then you said that Joshua picked them up and carried 'em on across the river Jordan into Canaan's land. Well now read the 22nd chapter of Revelation.
Reader: And he showed me a pure river of water of life,
Dr. Kinley: Then he showed me a pure river of water of life,
Reader: clear as crystal
Dr. Kinley: clear as a crystal
Reader: proceeding out of the throne of God
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute, you got a river there. Right? Now you had a sea here, now you got a river flowing out from the throne of God. Alright read on.
Reader: In the midst of the street of it
Dr. Kinley: In the midst, or in the middle of the street
Reader: and on either side of the river
Dr. Kinley: and on either side of the river
Reader: was there the tree of life
Dr. Kinley: was there the tree of life. On either side of the river was the tree of life. Look, don't you see we're in the flesh down here just like Israel was down there? Don't you see that? Don't you see the tabernacle down here with them? God told Moses to build the tabernacle that I might dwell among my people. That's in the wilderness. That's on this side of the river Jordan. Then when you crossed on through and went on through the River Jordan and went on into heaven or the third heaven itself, there's another building, not made with hands, not transportable; eternal in the heavens. So on either side of the river was the tree of life. You just don't know what it's all about. You've got to find a convenient way. You haven't got time to come down here and find out about it. Now this purpose has got to work. It's got to work all through, all through these dispensations and ages.
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Can I say one more thing? It's almost necessary. I, I wanna make it two. In the second chapter of second Thessalonians Paul said, now that day when the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven. Truthfully it is not Jesus Christ. It's Yahshua the Messiah. That's the correct name. Paul didn't even know nothing about a Jesus Christ. You don't let nobody tell you nothing and you won't look around to see nothing. That's interpolation in your Bible. Justus Christus is a Hindu idol from India. Oh no, no need to argue about it. That's what it is. That's a sun god. Yahshua the Messiah. Immanuel. Those are the true names. You're running around here hollering about, 'You preaching this and you preaching that and you preaching the other.' You don't know what you're doing. You won't let nobody tell you nothing.
Paul said there in the second chapter of Revelation, not Revelation but the second chapter of second Thessalonians, now they didn't understand the first letter he wrote to them, so then he writes back again, said, 'Now that day shall not come...' Read.
Reader: Now we beseech thee brethren
Dr. Kinley: Now we beseech you, now we are begging you. For your own good we are begging you. Alright read.
Reader: by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Dr. Kinley: by the coming of our Lord, Jesus
Reader: and by our gathering together unto him
Dr. Kinley: and by our assembling ourselves together, that ye... Read.
Reader: that ye be not soon shaken in mind
Dr. Kinley: That you. Now look all these false prophets and hypocrites, they're going out there but don't get shook up. Don't even let us shake you up about something you don't understand in an epistle. Alright, read on.
Reader: or be troubled
Dr. Kinley: or be troubled
Reader: neither by spirit
Dr. Kinley: neither by spirit
Reader: nor by word
Dr. Kinley: nor by word
Reader: nor by letter as from us
Dr. Kinley: Now if you didn't understand the first epistle, don't get all worked up. Tenth chapter, 17th chapter of Acts of Apostles and the 10th verse said them that were sent as Thessalonicans, they were not so noble as those at Berea. So they didn't understand. He said don't get shook up by it. And so he wrote the second letter, said that. Alright, read on. Now you listen at it. Read.
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Reader: as that the day of Christ is at hand
Dr. Kinley: That the day of Christ is at hand. Read on, I'm in a hurry.
Reader: Let no man deceive you by any means:
Dr. Kinley: Now, don't you let nobody from nowhere deceive you by any means. Paul said though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than that which we have already preached let him be accursed. We don't care whether he come from the Vatican, or drop down from heaven. It don't make no difference. Christ resurrected and went to hell and preached deliverance to the captives in distress, so we don't care where you come from, Heaven, hell or..., preach any other gospel to you than that which we've already preached, let him be an anathema. Don't make him one, just let him go on ahead and be that. Alright, read.
Reader: for that day shall not come,
Dr. Kinley: Now that day shall not come. We don't care what Jehovah's Witnesses said about it; we don't care what the Seventh Day Adventists said about it; we don't care what nobody said about it. That day shall not come
Reader: except there come a failing away first,
Dr. Kinley: Except there come a falling away first. See all of this confusion and stuff that you getting out here... When Jesus come in the end of that age, the Postdiluvian, look at the falling away. You had the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the Essenes, the Nicolaitians, and the Nazarenes. All of them had fell away from the law of Moses when He come in the flesh so now we find it revealed in the scriptures. Paul looking back at it, he said, 'And that day shall not come except there come a falling away first.' And then what?
Reader: and that man of sin be revealed
Dr. Kinley: Now it didn't say them men, said that man. Says ole Lucifer, the devil, that man. Adjective. That man of sin be revealed. Alright read.
Reader: the son of perdition
Dr. Kinley: The son of perdition. Now look, if Jesus come on, he chose 12, and one of 'em was a devil right straight from the beginning. So it's got to fit in here at the close of this one; in other words the close of these ages. There's got, there's nothing but a repetition. That man of sin, that man, that devil, that Christ. You're looking for the Son of Righteousness to be revealed, ain't you Roger? What's the matter with the son of perdition? You just, you gonna go to sleep and go ahead on. Alright read.
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Reader: who opposeth
Dr. Kinley: who opposeth and exalts himself
Reader: above all that is called God
Dr. Kinley: above all that is called God
Reader: or that is worshipped
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute. Said, 'He opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.' Is that what you got there? How's he opposing? Jesus said, 'Please, don't think that I come to destroy the Law and Prophets. I come to fulfill.' He said, 'Nah, it's not like that. He come to institute.' He opposes Him. He's got foot washing and all them old carnal ordinances that was under the dispensation of the law that God never give to a Gentile in the first place. Here he comes dragging it over here: washing feet and all them kinda things. That has to come, that man of sin, that son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is worshipped and all that is called God so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God.
Don't you know your body is the temple of God? Says, you got to know your body is the temple. Paul said in the sixth chapter of first Corinthians, 19th verse, 'Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which temple you are?'. God has got to be in every man, for in Him we live, and we move, and we have our being. That don't mean that you're conscious of it, but He's there just the same. That's one reason why we don't invite Him into our meetings, He's already here. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) ____ ____ try to take over and make it what it ought to be, now he's done that, and we try to find out about it. Now then, he's sitting over there in the Vatican, in this temple and sitting over there in the Vatican. You see that, Williams? Read.
Reader: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you
Dr. Kinley: Don't you remember when I was up there at Thessalonica in person, I told you these things? Alright.
Reader: And now you know what withholdeth
Dr. Kinley: And now you know what withholdeth
Reader: that he might be revealed in his time.
Dr. Kinley: Now, he's got to be revealed in his time. He's got to be revealed in his time. You know Judas followed Christ around for 3½ years? And on top of it all he carried the records too. At the Passover that night, He said, one of you shall betray Me. ____ ____ had the seats all arranged too. ____ ____ Satan is always present. There he was as near as that, sopping right in the dish with Him. The prophet hath said he that soppeth in the dish with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Judas had to be setting right there, sopping right in the dish with Him. He said, now whatsoever you do, do it quick. Better hurry with the thing now, for My hour is come. And so the supper being ended He rose up and washed the disciples feet, sang a hymn. What did He sing a hymn for? You all be reading
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and you don't know what it's all about. The reason why He sang a hymn, was because when the Children of Israel came out of here and then they crossed over the Red Sea after the Passover. He is fulfilling. He crossed over the Brook Kedron and entered into the Garden of Gethsemane and then they all rose up and sang a hymn. That was a song of victory. He said, rise and let us go. Where's He going? I'm going out into the garden of a.., Where?
Student Body: Gethsemane
Dr. Kinley: What's He going out here for? Don't you see this thing happened back there in the Garden of Eden? Read it with some understanding. He's fulfilling these things. And while He was out there in the Garden of Eden, old Judas up yonder denied Him for 30 pieces of silver. I don't have time to go into it, didn't want to preach no great long sermon to you. That's what Dr. McCoy was trying to do. And since it's your first time to hear these things, why then you don't understand them.
Then you think you're coming down here, doing what you call paying us a visit. No, you're trying to save your soul. Ain't paying nobody no visit. You think it's some kinda accommodation to me for you to come down here. No, it's your duty to search, search and investigate to try and find out something about God because if you don't you're gonna be lost. Alright, read on.
Reader: For the mystery of iniquity
Dr. Kinley: For the mystery of iniquity
Reader: doth already work
Dr. Kinley: Don't you know there are two mysteries? The mystery of iniquity and the mystery of God. Paul said the mystery of iniquity doth already work. It was working back there in the apostolic days. They had ____ ____ and adversary just like Christ had one, Judas. I don't have time to go into all of this. The mystery of iniquity already working. Alright read.
Reader: only he who now letteth will let
Dr. Kinley: Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed. He ain't reading fast enough. The problem is I want to get to the 13th chapter of Revelation and I want you to see this. 13th chapter of Revelation. Now he was talking about that man of sin, he's gonna be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposed and exalteth himself above all that is called God, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. And only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way. Then shall that wicked be revealed. Is that what you got in your Book? Oh yes indeed, we know what's in there. Yes siree. Alright read.
Reader: Here is wisdom.
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Dr. Kinley: Now here is wisdom. Now you're smart, you're all smartened up. Now wait a minute. No, you're smart. Now here is wisdom. This is it. Take the first verse.
Reader: And I stood upon the sand of the sea
Dr. Kinley: Now John said, 'I stood upon the sands of the sea.' What?
Reader: and saw a beast rise up out of the sea
Dr. Kinley: and saw a beast rise up out of the sea
Reader: having seven heads and 10 horns
Dr. Kinley: having seven heads and 10 horns
Reader: and above his horns 10 crowns
Dr. Kinley: and above his horns 10 crowns
Reader: and upon his heads the name of blasphemy
Dr. Kinley: Upon his heads the name of blasphemy. The name of blasphemy. Say look, Doc. Let me tell you something. Understand this. Get this understood. Now if Christ, God has sent Him into the world to fulfill this law and this prophecy and to move the natural things out of the way, which are typical of the spirit. That means this present dispensation. If you say, if you come up here doing what they're doing, Protestants and Catholics, you are blaspheming against God. You are denying that God has nailed those carnal ordinances to the cross. And Protestantism and Catholicism is denying that He has the power to move it. They're saying He instituted when He fulfilled. I'm giving it to you straight. You can't fix it. Alright, repeat what you just read.
Reader: And I, and I stood upon the sand of the sea
Dr. Kinley: And I stood upon the sand of the sea
Reader: and saw a beast rise up out of the sea
Dr. Kinley: saw a beast rise up out of the sea. Wait a minute. Hey, listen, folks. Can't you stand back there and see that Moses, John was looking back there and seeing Pharaoh drowning in the Red Sea, and his body washed ashore and they sang the song of victory and a beast rise up out of the sea? And man without the spirit of God is just like a natural brute beast. John ain't doing nothing but confirming everything ____ ____ out of the multitude. Alright, read on.
Reader: having seven heads
Dr. Kinley: having seven heads
Reader: and 10 horns
Dr. Kinley: and 10 horns. I ain't got time to go into them three kingdoms. Alright, read on.
Reader: and upon his horns 10 crowns
Dr. Kinley: and upon his horns 10 crowns
Reader: and upon the head, the name of blasphemy.
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Dr. Kinley: And upon the head, head, name of blasphemy. Every one of them lying bastards is blaspheming against God. Said, 'You called that man a bastard.' Anytime you won't receive chastisement from God Himself, then you're a bastard, and not a son. The son of perdition. And so I said 'lying bastards.' That's what Satan was from the very beginning. ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Yes indeed, that's what'll get you. So he's got on his head the name of blasphemy. Read.
Reader: And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard
Dr. Kinley: And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard
Reader: and his feet were as the feet of a bear
Dr. Kinley: Now look here. Anybody knows, any stupid idiot from anywhere knows that you can take a leopard, and you can't wash them spots off of it. You get all the dust cleanser and detergent you can find, it's just natural for them to be there. A carnal mind is like unto a leopard. He's spotted. ____ too and that's, thems the beast that Peter is talking about over there in the second epistle to the Israelites. And Jude is talking about it. They're just natural brute beasts. They allure with great swelling words: talk about transubstantiation and gotta whole bunch of longwinded words that they don't understand themselves. So they said that. Peter said that they are lured through the flesh. Got their garments and all, don't let it be the outer garments, let it be the inner. You hear about a great big cross up down his back, singing the song 'Jesus keep me near the cross.' You want to get clear away from that 'You're welcome to that, but not the cross.' Yes sir. Great big steeple up on top of the thing and a cross up on top of it and everybody in it's dead. That's right. Yes indeed, we're talking about the resurrection in this. Alright, read on.
Reader: and his feet were as the feet of a bear
Dr. Kinley: And his feet were as the feet of a bear. Now I ain't got time to go into that, but you know how a bear's claws are. But we're going into it. Read on.
Reader: and his mouth as the mouth of a lion
Dr. Kinley: And his mouth as the mouth of a lion. RROOOAAARRR.
RRROOOAAARRR. Roaring around. Peter said he was a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. That's what they're doing now, trying to get somebody back, so they say, back into the Roman Catholic Church. I beg your pardon, you're already in it: in confusion. That's Babylon. And Protestantism, they ain't out of it, they're in confusion. Alright, read.
Reader: and the dragon gave him his power
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Dr. Kinley: And the dragon gave him his power; in other words, pagan Rome give papal Rome its power. Now, that's all in history. And his seat, and his great authority. Is that something like what you got in your Book? I know what's in there, too. This is not a Bible reading contest. This is to understand what you're reading. Alright, read on.
Reader: And I saw one of his heads, as it were, wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed
Dr. Kinley: Uh, uh.
Reader: and all the world wondered after the beast
Dr. Kinley: Now listen. Are you listening folks? Are you listening? Said all the world wondered after the beast. Finish out that last statement. Right there. All the world wondered after the beast.
Reader: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon that gave power unto the beast
Dr. Kinley: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast
Reader: and they worshipped the beast, saying,
Dr. Kinley: and they worshipped beast, saying,
Reader: who is like unto the beast?
Dr. Kinley: who is like unto the beast?
Reader: and who is able to make war with him?
Dr. Kinley: and who is able to make war with him?
Reader: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things
Dr. Kinley: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great swelling things.
Reader: blasphemies
Dr. Kinley: blasphemies
Reader: and power was given unto him
Dr. Kinley: and power was given unto him
Reader: to continue 40 and 2 months.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Power was given unto him to continue 40 and 2 months. That's 1260 years. ____ ____ A.D. 33. Forty and two months in prophetic time is 1260 years. Power was given from the dragon to the beast, from paganism to papalism. And said 'Now who is able to make war with the beast?' He stood upon the sands of the sea and saw this beast rise out of the sea having heads and horns, and the Roman Empire was first broken down into 10 kingdoms. I said I didn't have time to go into it.
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And now, here this beast has rose up out of the sea, or out of the multitudes, and then he's going forth on the breadth of the earth, and you don't have no knowledge of it, you have no understanding, no parts of it. Then he said that after the thousand years was finished he'd be loosed out of his prison for a little season; After the thousand years Satan loosed out of his prison for a little season. You know, just as well as I do, that the pope has been bound up in that Vatican over there for better than a thousand years and none of them, Pope Paul was the first one that ever did leave. Satan is called the prince of the power of the air and when he come out of there, air borne, 'Where you going?' Going right back and retrace the steps of Jesus Christ in the dust over there in the Holy Land, showing that he is Christ. He's blessing this and he's blessing that, he's doing this, and he's doing that. Everybody's saying, 'Now who's like him?' He's head of the Christian Church. Rome is the head of it. Now these things have got to come to pass. Now you sit down and sleep and snore and carry on.
We said that 50 countries have representatives at the Vatican, and the Vatican is an independent state, just like the United States of America. Mussolini gave it back to him in 1929 when Victor Emmanuel took it away from him. They're cussing Victor Emmanuel with everything they can lay on him. They gave it back. Then he come out of there and went to Jerusalem. Talking about him being revealed in his time. Can't you see? You are right down in the end of this age. These things have got to be repeated just like when Jesus was here. You set up there and read and read never realizing. You won't let nobody tell you. The market basket or something for your belly is more important and you coming down to find something out about it.
Fifty nations have representatives at the Vatican. The Vatican is an independent state. Somebody went on to work and elected John F. Kennedy to be president of the United States of America, and according to the constitution why then you should be committed and stand to the principles embodied in the constitution of the United States of America and stand for religious liberty and freedom. Well, he couldn't do that. Why? Because his allegiance is pledged to Rome, an independent state. There won't be no arguing about it. Then over there in Revelation, you got that the beast went upon the breadth of the earth compassed the camp of the saints and the beloved city, beloved city, Gog and Magog. What for? To gather together to battle against the great day of God Almighty. Don't you see that man coming over here and they'll speak to the United Nations? Went forth to all the nations of the earth to gather together to battle against the great day of God Almighty.
There you are come down to the close of this present age, the time for the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven to take place. Here you are standing around dumb, stupid, and ignorant. Come here on October the fourth, October the fifth this year, when generally October the 10th is the Day of Atonement. In the Jewish account, it comes, it falls, on the, the fifth this year. The Day of Atonement, when the blood of Jesus Christ... The pope, here he is over here trying to, trying to gather his people together, going upon the breadth of the earth, to gather together to battle against the great day of God Almighty. We're telling you, 'Come
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on down folks, come on down.' We don't care nothing about nobody. Just preaching them down. Go to jail or the cemetery or any place folks. We don't care. I don't count my life dear. And I'm not trying to agree with anybody either. Read on.
Reader: And he opened his mouth
Dr. Kinley: And he opened his mouth
Reader: in blasphemy
Dr. Kinley: in blasphemy
Reader: against God
Dr. Kinley: against God
Reader: and to blaspheme His name
Dr. Kinley: he blasphemed His name.
Reader: and His tabernacle
Dr. Kinley: and His tabernacle
Reader: and them that dwell in heaven
Dr. Kinley: and them that dwell in heaven
Reader: and it was given unto him...
Dr. Kinley: Wait a minute. Blasphemed them that dwell in heaven, blasphemed his name. I'm telling you...
I told you I didn't wanna preach, but I just can't stand to see you sit around stupid, sound asleep, counting so many other things much more important: progress, and getting ahead in the world. No that ain't what you want, you wanna get out of it. You're going to get out of it whether you want to or not because this is going to be burnt up: that penthouse, and Cadillac, and everything else. Somebody said, 'Well, I don't believe that. You know Solomon says,' that's what the Jehovah's Witnesses say, 'Solomon said one generation goes and another cometh but the earth abideth forever.' Did you ever look back at Genesis 8:22 and see what it says there? That seed time and harvest, day and night, summer and winter, shall not pass as long as the earth remains. That's as long as the earth remains, but it won't remain. Jesus said that heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass. How do you know that? Well, it passed in in a flame, passed in that burning cloud. Moses saw the vision in there, sure enough saw it at Mount Sinai, the creation of the heavens and the earth in that flame in that cloud. Israel at the foot of that mountain said that cloud was like a consuming fire. He saw the vision of it coming in and Peter looked back there said it'll go out just like it come in. So all these things will be consumed and dissolved and He's going to create a new heaven and a new earth. So now, ain't no need you wasting your time fooling around here and loosing (losing?) your souls trying to get into the real estate business and build up penthouses. It's too late for that. If you ain't got nothing now it's a little late. And if you have got something it won't help you none, neither. You gotta come down here and try to find out something about it. What shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? It profits you nothing. When you see these things coming to pass. You're reading it in the papers, newspapers, and you're seeing it on TV, television and all them different kind of things.
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John says in the 16th chapter of Revelation, says these are the spirits of devils which go forth to the kings of the earth. And now you see what the appeal is to the U.N. over here, and what they're doing. They're not preaching the gospel by faith. God promised to bless you children, not on the strength of you doing nothing. Jesus done the work. The prophecy says, are you listening, 'Behold you despisers, wonder and perish, I'll work a work in your days that you shall not believe though a man declare it unto you.' Now, when He come He sweat it out, He did the works. And Isaiah says, it's by His stripes you are healed. And God promised, listen, God promised that if you would believe, if you would believe in the sacrifice that He gave... We read that God so loved the world, John 3:19, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. That's a great big job. Jesus said, are you listening, Jesus said, this is the work, this is the work, that you believe on Him that sent Me. Now how can he hear without a preacher, and how can he preach, except he be sent? Faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. Until such time as you see how it's put together, you can't have no faith. You don't know where to cut the Bible. So now, come on dow.., come on down here. And as Dr. McCoy says, hold our arms up.
Somebody said, 'Well now, how do you get into that service?' Right through that door. You're as welcome here as anybody else. You come right in and sit. You're born in the Kingdom of God. And folks, Jesus said, 'No man goeth unto the Father but by Me.' So you come right here, and that's the sacrifice, and if you believe on Him then God promised to bless you, to give you the Holy Spirit, and to teach you in the path of righteousness.
Somebody said, 'Well, I know, but don't you have to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost?' That's what we're doing now, whether you recognize it or not. That's what we're doing. We're baptizing you in the name of the Father, that's Yahweh, in English it's Jehovah, and of the Son, Yahshua, that's His name, and of the Holy Ghost, Elohim. That is the godhead. That's what we're preaching, and in so doing we're baptizing in the name of the Father, not in the creek, not behind the pool; we're baptizing you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The name of the Father is Yahweh. Didn't I tell you that? And the name of the Son is Yahshua, and the name of the Holy Ghost is Elohim. I have told you that is the godhead. You can't separate it and you can't divide it, anymore so than you can live if you're divided up. Man is made in the likeness and image of God: pneuma, psyche, and soma; God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one, just like you are pneuma, psyche, soma, soul, body, spirit. And don't go prancing around trying to divide none of it up, because you don't know how to divide it. You get the point? ____ spiritual realm, it's not ____ ____ ____.
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5) *SEPTEMBER 26,1965: *
ADMONISHMENT AND ENCOURAGEMENT TO COME TO SCHOOL
So then, you come on down here and get washed. 'He that believeth on Me, as the scriptures hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. This spake He of the spirit.' Did you ever see a river of water flowing out of anybody's belly? Not what we are talking about the spirit. That's what's flowing out of here now, not the river Jordan. It's not the natural thing, it's not that water behind the pulpit there. That Word of God, it's not this Bible, that's not, that's not it. These are words. The Word of God was here long before this Bible. The Bible wasn't written yet, but the Word of God. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.' That's God Himself. Said, 'Now he that believeth on Me, as the scriptures hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. This spake He of the spirit.' The spirit was not yet given until the Day of Pentecost. And anytime anybody thinks ____ ____ trying to dib dabble in the natural, physical, carnal things ____ ____. That ain't what it's all about.
Paul said there is therefore, now, no condemnation to them that are in Christ, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ. How'd you get in Him? By one spirit are we baptized into one body, and one hope of our calling. First Corinthians 12:13. Now, that's how we get in there. We're not vicars of Christ. I can't believe or something. You don't join it, you're born in it. Yes indeed, you've got a rebirth. That's how you get into this. We're preaching and teaching the spiritual things so that you can have some confidence in the Son of God. ____ ____ ____ can become effective. In order to ____ ____ ____ ,says become effective and believe in God everyday, and every minute, every hour of your life as long as you remain here. We don't need nobody to tell us right and wrong if we've got the Holy Ghost. The covenant says they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest. That's from the top to the bottom, from the priest on down. When the Holy Ghost is in you, that's what's doing the leading and the guiding. It's not Henry Clifford Kinley. It's not Williams. It's not Burbank Mitchell. It's not Peter. It's not Paul. Who are they anyhow, but ministers by whom you believe. Let us stand.
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6) * 1966: I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN *
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Please note that the audio cassette tape received had the year as 1962. The proofreaders have changed the date to 1966 because of two items Dr. Kinley mentions several times in the session: 1) It is 1932 years into this age, and 2) he has been teaching for 35 years.
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on reel to reel recorder
cassette recording received from Lee Warren (#44)
2 90 minute audio cassettes
Catalog#: 66 VH
1986
originally transcribed pages 1 - 16 and 26 - 32 by BJaie Gordon in June, 1986
1997
additional transcribing pages 16 - 26 done by Cathy Fenti and Sharon Tinker
first proofreading: Cathy Fenti
second proofreading: Mary Hayes
third proofreading: Michael Rothstein
fourth proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fifth proofreading: International Public Relations
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
TAPE 1, SIDE 1:
Announcer: I'd like to present at this time, the Founder and Dean of the School, Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. I'm indeed happy and glad to be here again, and to talk with you about the things that are pertaining to God and His Purpose and the Kingdom of God, the reality of it. I've been thinking for quite some time about it, the origins of this work, what it means, how to understand something about it, because it is the result of a revelation. I have did everything that is within my power to do, to try to make men and women conscious of the ever presence of God, a living God, up-to-date God, not an antique, or not a passive ____. I want you to realize that God is alive. And it is not me that I want you to see, to know something about, to understand something about. Not that at all. But I am anxious to convey to your mind the things that God has shown to me in the year 1931. By constant mentioning of it, there may be some become
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somewhat antagonistical to some, and then they'll get the wrong conception or the wrong idea about it, and think that I mean to pose as some great one myself. I want you to know that it..., that is a false perception. That is not true. I have never, at any time, tried to impart the idea that I, myself, amounted to anything, just another one of the brethren, trying to convey to you the things that God has given to me to show to you. And I have tried my best to tell you that I, too, have come up through the experiences that everybody sitting under the sound of my voice have had: belonged to this church and that church, and the other organizations, and so forth and so on. I, too, have been taught and lived as you have lived. But in the year 1931, God, I'll try to talk to you so you can understand me, gave me a Divine Revelation and a Vision. I did not understand the vision when I saw it. I've never tried to make anybody think that I did. I just didn't understand it. But that same day, the meaning of that vision was revealed to me. And I have told you many times that that revolutionized and it did away with my proud conception of God and His Purpose. It moved me out of the category of skepticism. It made me begin to wonder.
Well, I didn't think that I was the worst fellow, I never have thought that. Why, I didn't see where I was any better than anybody else. I never thought that as..., I'll tell you like the Apostle Paul said. He said, this is a true saying, and worthy of acceptation, that Yahshua the Messiah came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am the chief. That's what he thought about himself, he was the chief sinner. I believe he was almost justified in making that statement, too. For the simple reason why: because he did lead the persecutors of the apostles when they were out to preach that the resurrection from the dead. And he held the raiment of them that slew Stephen, and also, he told the.., Timothy, that at that time, he said he was a blasphemer and an injurious person because he persecuted the Assembly of God, you call it the church of God. But he said, I received mercy, because I did it ignorantly, and through unbelief. He did not realize and he did not know at that time, that so far as the Purpose of God, in its declaration from the beginning, that he was to be an apostle. And all the things that he did contrary was a preparation. That meant that he didn't have anything at all to boast of on the part of Paul. He told Felix, Festus and Agrippa, said now, all of the Jews know how that I persecuted the Church for a witness. Then he went on to tell them about the God of his fathers according to the things that was stipulated in the Scriptures that had to come to pass. And he said that he didn't have anything to cover up or to hide, one way or the other, because everything that he had said that caused him to be in trouble after he saw the Vision, was nothing more than what Moses and the Prophets said would come. So, I look at it like the, the Apostle did. He said that when, but when it pleased God, but when it pleased God, who separated him from his mother's womb, to put him in the ministry. Now God put him in there. Why then he was not hesitant. He was obedient to the heavenly vision. And he counted himself happy. So he told Felix, Festus and Agrippa; that's king, priest and governor, that he was happy that he was permitted to speak for himself, touching all things whereof the Jews of late had accused him about..., that I want to... Now the reason.., the thing that makes me so happy about it is this: that old Agrippa, that's the king, is because I know that you are an expert in the law of the Jews and customs. And so, for that reason, I'm real happy to speak for my..., that I'm permitted or given the opportunity to speak for myself.
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Now, I have laid that kind of a foundation to say to you that that was in the beginning of the Present Age and Present Dispensation where the apostles come along and preached after the Messiah had been crucified, resurrected and ascended and poured out the Holy Spirit. Now we are coming down to the close of this Age, when everything that has transpired through the Dispensations and Ages... Listen. It repeats itself, over, and over, and over, and over, and over. There is not a thing in the past, not a thing, but what isn't in the present, and in the future, not a thing. That's the reason why Messiah said, I Am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. And His Purpose works with unerring accuracy, with infallibility, through the Dispensations and Ages.
After being Assistant Pastor of the Church of God, I told you many times about it. And having been put out, you just might as well call the thing straight and get it over with. Silenced. I thought it was a pretty bad thing. The thought that was within me was surely there ought to be, surely there ought to be some way whereby that we could understand the Purpose of God. Listen. And if God has appointed a day wherein He shall judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained, surely then there should be some way that we that call ourselves in Christiandoom (Christendoom?) ought to be able to see eye to eye or face to face. I thought, surely there should be some way. And it was in my heart to write a book, and go back to the brethren and try to convince them of my honesty and integrity. So, I got busy and started to write that book. And I went upstairs in the attic, in my home at that time, and I started to write. Well, I guess I must have worked on it three or four weeks, maybe longer, or maybe not so long, I don't remember. But anyhow, the thought come to me is, many men, far smarter than I am, have written many, many books. I knew of Matthew Henry, commentators Pendelton, Burroughs, and just a lot of commentators, and a lot of smart theologians that had written books. So me writing a book won't have any more influence on Christiandoom out there than what the books that they have written. So that won't do. I quit.
I took my little dog and went on upon the, the creek, and I sit down up there for nearly two years in that melancholy state. Backwards and forwards I lived the days, alone and by myself, nobody but me and my dog. And I looked at nature in its simplicity and in its reality. And I wondered to myself, surely, there ought to be some way that Christ is going to judge the world in righteousness. There ought to be some way to convince mankind. If it can't be done now, and it's a matter of utter impossibility to convince mankind and for us to become reconciled, those of us who would accept, then I could see no future, potential possibility of it.
And I remember being in my dining room and rocking in the rocking chair, and I was looking at the wall. I just newly had my house papered, and I was looking at how beautiful the wallpaper was before I had planned to make my departure. Now, if you'd listen at what I'm telling you, it is important. And then I had one of the greatest, stupendous visions, I believe, that has ever been given to any man. It was not out of harmony with nothing that had been revealed here before. It was not out of harmony that was revealed to Moses and the Prophets and the Apostles.
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I told you after I had the Vision, I didn't understand it. And then I went into another state of, I might just say took out of the world, and there was explained to me, or in other words, the, the meaning of the vision that I had was revealed to me. Now, the thing I'm trying to tell you about is this, I didn't think that I was so bad myself, or any worse than anybody else, and so God had to go to all that trouble just on my account to get me saved. And I thought then, evidently it must be for someone else as much so as it is for me. So then I said, 'well, I'll go out and tell somebody about it.' No. It silenced me. I couldn't go and tell nobody nothing, because I realized that the thing that I would tell them they would not believe nohow. I didn't believe it before I had the Vision and the Revelation. So now, I'm just up against it. So then, there isn't but one thing that it taught me to do, just one thing, and that was this: was to draw out these charts and try to convey to somebody's mind, the Divine, listen, the divine authenticity, the unerring accuracy, the infallibility of God and His Purpose as was revealed to Moses and the prophets, that the Messiah did come in the world at the appointed time. He lived, He fulfilled the Law and the Prophecy to the very jot and tittle, or to the letter. And then, after He fulfilled it, then all of the carnality, or all of the literal, all of the physical, all of the natural, was moved out. The Purpose was this: that we might worship God in Spirit and in Truth, that God did seek man to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Now God had made a statement like this... Now you listen, cause everything I'm saying to you now is vitally important to your salvation. He had said He would bring to nought the wisdom of the wise. You remember, we had scribes, sari, Sadducees, and about six different factions of 'em back there. Now, He said He would bring to nought, destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nought the understanding of the prudent. Now, just reading that makes no difference. People just read that in a passive sense, in a passive way. He said that He come to fulfill. Matthew 5:17. Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets, but I come to fulfill, and verily, I tell you, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass until it is all fulfilled. Now, here is the destruction of the wisdom of the wise and to bring to nought the understanding of the prudent. Here is where Paul got in trouble. This is how he became a blasphemer and an injurious person, because he was sensed of keeping the Law. And he said as touching the Law when he was persecuting, he was blameless.
That Sanhedrin Council.., though those soldiers that were, that were at the tomb, when He was buried in Joseph's new tomb, hewn out in the rocks, those soldiers were there at that tomb went up to the Sanhedrin Council, now you listen at me, and told them that He had risen from the dead as He said. Now, they went and made that report to all seventy of 'em. Now what they did was bribe the soldiers. Don't let this get out into the community, and they gave 'em money. Now if it does get out, then our last error will be worse than the first. Now, the first error they made was to crucify the Son of God. And they said there of.., that that deceiver saith that He would raise from the dead on the third day. Now you go and seal up the sepulcher and make it as sure as you can. They asked that committee. So then they sealed up the sepulcher to make it safe, and put a guard down at it, those soldiers out there I'm talking about. And when, to make a long story short and try to hold the continuity of thought, the Angel of the Lord
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descended and rolled the stone away and set upon it... Now, that's gospel according to Matthew, Mark and Luke. Right? And they went up there and told the Sanhedrin Council that.
Now, so then, the Apostle Paul, who was, who was afterwards called an apostle, he was there studying at the feet of Gamaliel, and just like a lot of people was aspiring to be a somebody, wanted to be someone. So then they, the Sanhedrin Council, gave him credentials and sent him out to persecute those Apostles. Now it was their job to go. And anyone that disobeyed the Law, why then it was their job to go and see to 'em being put to death according to the, to the Law. But now, them hypocrites sat there, they wouldn't go themselves, and they sent Paul out to do that. And give him letters of authority to do it, to do their job, and they sat back in seclusion. You get it now? So then he, with these letters of authority, he went out to persecute them that was preaching the resurrection from the dead. And Yahshua the Messiah appeared to him on the highway going to Damascus and asked him..., called him by name, Saul...
(BREAK IN THE TAPE)
He wanted to go back and jump on them, that Sanhedrin Council that sent him out there like that. He wanted to go back and jump on 'em, but He said 'No, don't do that, you go on down to Damascus where you started and there'll be somebody down there to tell you what to do.' So he went on down, Straight street in Damascus, and he met the proper authorities down there in the house of Judas. And they told him, the Lord promised to have somebody that told him what they informed him to do. Now listen. Instead of him going back to Jerusalem there, he went to Arabia, sent him to Arabia. Now I haven't heard very much of explanations of why he went into Arabia from the ministry, and why he couldn't go back to Jerusalem.
And that brings me to my text. I very seldom, I very seldom have a text. I just usually preach the Bible. But this morning I have a text. My text will be found in the 14th chapter of Revelation, and the second verse. Now when you have found it, please read.
Reader: And I heard a Voice from Heaven as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Dr. Kinley: I heard a Voice from Heaven. That is my text. Now what I mean by that is this. This is John saying that, that he heard a Voice from Heaven. Now he didn't say he heard a voice from the Vatican. He didn't say he heard a voice of the General Council. He told you unmistakably where he had heard the Voice: I heard a Voice from Heaven as a sound of many waters.
Now what I'm telling you is this: just as John and Moses heard that Voice from Heaven, I'm trying to tell you that I, too, heard that Voice from Heaven. And I have been under the impression for 35 years that I heard that Voice from Heaven, not because I was such a bad, or such a good man, one way or the other cause I was
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searching.
I didn't realize that that was what I was being prepared for through my 15 years that I was Assistant Pastor, the Gospel that I would preach. I didn't know all those experiences led up to the same thing, but that morning when I heard that Voice from Heaven... You remember I told you that I had been in a quandary. I had a quandary. Why and how? Since there was so many sects and cults and denominations and creeds in the world, since we're all saved, God has appointed a day wherein He shall judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained. I couldn't see no possibility of universal reconciliation, because each and everyone wants to hold to their particular religious concepts, as did the Pharisees and Sadducees in the days when the Messiah was here. So, in the hearing of that Voice from Heaven, every time I read Revelations, every time I read about Moses, it is as vivid in my heart and mind today as it was then.
And as I said before, I knew that it wouldn't do any good to go out here in the world and try to tell them, but it was that I had a message, had received a message to give to them. So then that made me proceed to draw out these charts. Now, I told you the other night, that these charts here that are drawn out, we have had them in universities, we've had them before smart men and they are many years old. This one here, being.., that one over there being the first one that I tried to teach from, that's the first one I made. You recall, it's the Pattern and Plan of Salvation. And nobody, from nowhere, up until this time, up until this very day, has ever been able to refute it and to dispute it. Yes, we've had people to come in school that never understood, and they would say, 'well, I don't think this...' Well, they didn't. They didn't know what they was looking at. They didn't understand it. And those that did make some kind of a study of it, all that they could do was fall in line with it, because I just put down here just what I saw. It's to the very best of my ability, and I know the art is not up to date. I know the art is not up to date.
Now listen at me folks, this is serious. Along with that come the knowledge, that Vision and Revelation, come the knowledge of prophecy. I have told you every major historical event that's happened in the world to date. You are my witnesses. People have been healed of all kinds of disease all across this country, verified and confirmed by medical authorities.
I told you, to kind of specify a little, a few things, to enumerate a few things, I told you about Roosevelt's last run for President of the United States of America, that he would be nominated, elected, and he would not be in the White House one year from that day. All you have to do is consult history about it. I told you way back before '35 about the Second World War, and wrote the President of the United States of America about it. I told him when the Nations would go to war and what would happen, and so forth and so on, and when it would terminate. And it happened just like I said.
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There is a man setting in the audience that worked with me in the same place, just one man, that when the announcement come from the White House that they... This is in Wright Aeronautical Plant, in Lockland, Ohio. They said that there would be an announcement from the White House. Said, 'all employees sit down, do nothing, and wait for that broadcast to come in the shop.' Shut all the machinery down. And one of the brethren, setting in the audience, setting in the congregation right now, walked in my office. I had a office there, too. He walked in my office and he said to me, 'Well, is this it? Is this the day?' I said, 'No, there will be no announcement that the war is terminated as of today, as you have previously heard that there would be.' Said, 'it wouldn't happen, not today,' because that's not the date that was shown to me in the vision back in 1931. That man is sitting in... Would you mind standing up, that man? Would you mind standing up? That's right. Thank you.
I made another announcement in that same plant, and I got arrested by the FBI. I been in plenty a troubles about this Voice that I heard from Heaven, been in plenty trouble. I did have a method of taking away the heat. And I said this, that there would be a governmental investigation in Wright Aeronautical Plant within 30 days and the top executives and officials of that plant would lose their jobs, but the F.B.I. got me and put me on the carpet. And they told me that I had to repudiate or withdraw my statement, because if I didn't, I'd had made myself subject to discharge, immediate discharge. I had on a suit of overalls, and at the time my job was to mop the floor, wipe up oil. I had a mop cart just like anybody else. So then they carried me up there and they asked me, did I make that statement? I said, 'Yes, I did. I certainly did.' But I didn't know who the FBI was. When I heard my name called on the public address system, I never, I ignored it because it wasn't nobody but officials called on that thing. Then, when I heard my name called I, I wondered to myself. I didn't know that there was another Henry C. Kinley in there, and I.., but I just ignored it. Well, I was supposed to go to the telephone and answer the call. I wouldn't go. So George Stingline and the, the, the guard there at the plant, come and got me.
And while I'm on George Stingline, I want to tell you about him. George Stingline afterwards become the Secretary of this School. I said, there would be a... Harry S. Truman walked through Wright Aeronautical Plant within 30 days and top officials there did lose their jobs just like I said.
Now here I go back on the carpet again. For what? They didn't tell me. They said, 'they want to see you up in the Personnel Department.' And so, I went up in the Personnel Department, the guard right along with me, with my same overalls on. But I had told that man when I was up there before, when I speak, I have spoken. And I just ripped my overalls down. That made myself subject to being discharged. I am as of now fired because I refuse to take back what I said, cause when I speak, I have spoken. That's the way it is. That's just what I told him. So he said, 'No.' Sent me on back to work, but told me, he cautioned me to keep my mouth shut, just like they did there with Paul. Told me to keep my mouth shut. Well, I wouldn't promise 'em. I told 'em just like Peter and them said, 'you be the judge, whether it's right in the sight of God.' And so they sent me on back, and I went back to mopping.
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And when the officials lost their jobs, back on the carpet I went again. And they say, 'as of now, you are fired. Fired off of that job of mopping the floors. You don't mop no more floors here. Your office is in the South Shop basement, already arranged for you. Take the overalls off and the guards will direct you and carry you to your position.' 'I don't want no job of, of..,' not like that. I said, 'I want to mop the floors.' They said, 'I'm sorry, you can't mop the floors. Take him out.' And so ____ let me out. Dr. Allen knows I'm telling the truth about that, because he was a constant visitor. I had charge of distribution of supplies and what not all over that plant. It was the biggest airplane plant there was in the world at that time. But I didn't feel like worrying with that, then coming out of there and worrying with the insurance in the daytime 'cause I worked day and night and tried to teach the School on top of it.
Now the reason why I'm mentioning these things to you is to call your attention back in these things. I'm trying to tell you that whatever God says, reveals, whether you believe it or not, or whether you ever heard it before or not, it's so anyhow. And I wanna let you know too, that it did not come from gazing in no crystal ball. And ever since then I have told you of every major thing in the world. I told you about John F. Kennedy would get in the presidential category again. You was setting there, you that are setting there under the sound of my voice know whether I did or no, and know whether I'm lying, because you heard it. I told you that John F. Kennedy would be nominated, elected and assassinated. Now he was not elected by the right count of votes; it's a trick. I knew that. But I knew that they would smooth that one over and Nixon wouldn't, couldn't, contest it. But the, you, you know, you, most of you that set under the sound of my voice know whether it's so or not, whether it, whether he, whether he was assassinated or not, you know it. I didn't ask you what church you come from. I said, you know that he was. I told you about the Alaskan earthquake. I told you about..., on the tenth of April, about that submarine being on the bottom of the ocean. Right? And I told you, before I left here in the eleventh of May to go to Ohio, I told you there would be earthquakes everywhere. Didn't I tell you that? Well, I don't want you to think at anything, I don't want you to think, I don't want you to get the idea that that is me, and I think that I'm so great or anything of the kind. I don't want you to get that idea, because that is not it. I just want to say and tell you that the things that is written in this Book, they are true. Yes. There is interpolations and mistranslations there, mistakes and errors; in other words, for those of you that can't under.., but generally and overall, this Book is right, which you call the Bible. And don't forget I told you that God is an up to date God, He is ever present.
You know of the hypothesis of recent ____ that God is dead. Now the reason why those things are said is because the present day ministry that is preaching to people, and preaching their education and theirself and their understanding and comprehension of it. And there is no heart to heart feeling of the ever presence of God involved in the assembly and in the ministry. Now, too, it's profited them according to the way it should be. Now do you understand? That is it.
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Now I want to tell you this. Now this will almost be offensive. I told you many times that His name is not Jesus, as is said in your Bible: Jesus Christ. His Name is Yahshua the Messiah. I showed you why. I showed you what God's name was, that you'd called God. I showed you what His name was, Yah-weh or Yahweh. Yah is the most important. And I told you about Him. Well, now those are things that I seen, in that...,
(THE FOLLOWING TWO SENTENCES WERE PROBABLY LOST IN TAPE DUPLICATION SINCE THEY ARE AT THE END OF A SIDE OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT BUT NOT ON THE TAPE.) I've seen and I've heard that. Now let me get on down after my text and work with this a little bit.
TAPE 1, SIDE 2:
Now, in the first chapter of Revelation, I want you to read the introduction back there. Now whoever reads, read fast, because I wanna get through here.
Reader: The revelation of Jesus Christ
Dr. Kinley: The revelation of Jesus Christ. Read.
Reader: The revelation of Yahshua the Messiah
Dr. Kinley: Read on.
Reader: which Yahweh gave unto Him
Dr. Kinley: Huh-uh. Which Yahweh... Listen folks. That is the God of this universe's name. He's ____ to be known or called by any other name, so say the Scriptures. Now, I don't have time to go into that. Alright. And Yahshua, I told... Now listen. Let me see if I can show it to you. Freddie, do something. Put it on the board. Put, I showed you the other night. It's almost necessary in these last days to put these things up there. Put Yahshua and Yahweh on the board and show the relationship one with the other. And in the meantime. Listen folks. Now look up here at me and listen to me. Don't pay no attention to Freddie because I got to get this over. Now Yahshua the Messiah said in the fifth chapter of St. John, I have come in my Father's name. Now everybody in here, when you're born in the family, don't you take your father's name? Answer me.
Student Body: Yes.
(DR. KINLEY STARTS TO PREACH HARD HERE AND CONTINUES ON NON STOP FOR ALMOST THE REMAINDER OF THE CLASS)
Dr. Kinley: And if His Father's Name was Yahweh, His Son's name would have to be something similar to it, for Him to come in the family. And Jesus Christ is no parts of it. So it's not true. And there isn't a Jew in the world today that knows anything at all about it, to whom the adoption and the covenants and all was given, and they'll die the death of an outcast dog before they'll accept Jesus Christ, because it is not so, no person in it. Now you can swell up if you want to, but that's the truth. Get to? Now I don't wanna argue about it either. I just told you about it. I'm not here this morning to argue with nobody about anything, I'm here to tell you about I heard a Voice from Heaven, and I'm here to show you what I
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heard in that Voice from Heaven. And it carried me on back, carried, that Vision carried me clear on back into the Godhead itself, as you call it, made me see, listen folks, understand and know God as He really is and as He actually exists. That is the thing I have been trying my best to get over to you in this School. I told you repeatedly this School never would have an existence had it not been for just that. The truth is offensive. It's offensive to the world. They are not going to accept it. They didn't accept the Truth when Yahshua the Messiah, who is the Truth itself. You know yourself that the Sanhedrin Council would not accept it. So it's no new thing. Now here we have, here, repeat what you just read there in the first chapter of Revelation.
Reader: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him
Dr. Kinley: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him. Read.
Reader: to show unto His servants
Dr. Kinley: Now, not just to tell them about it, but to show unto His servants. Read, please.
Reader: things which must shortly come to pass
Dr. Kinley: things which must shortly come to pass. Now I wanna put some pressure on there. I told you to begin with, there is nothing, not a thing that is to come to pass but what hasn't already come to pass. Somebody would jump up and say, 'listen, you're wrong about that.' I beg your pardon. I am not wrong about it. 'Well, why did you say that?' Because if it's a creation, a new creation to come to pass, yet to come to pass, don't you realize to begin with, when God created this present universe, it was new at that time. And the way He created that is the same way He'll create a new one. That will come to pass, that's in the hereafter. So then, since it was in the hereafter, it was already in the beginning. Now when He was here you only had two thousand years, and I don't wanna argue with no idiot about that either. I don't want to argue about that, just two thousand years.
And now, it's the Purpose and Plan that's got to repeat itself over and over, over and over. Now, let me get into the core of this. Now John is telling you here, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave, got ____ to show unto His servants things which would shortly come to pass. And he went on further and said this. Listen, I'll have to cut some of these things up short, cause I want somebody else to, to have something to say too, the things which would shortly come to pass. Now what is happening is this: is that Purpose is just working over and over, repeating down through the Dispensations and Ages. Listen carefully, listen carefully now. Now here with John was one that was out there on the Isle of Patmos. He was out there to hear and to see in, in a Vision. That's what the man's purpose was, was there, was to confirm what Moses and them had said about the creation, and about the history, and about the things that had already been in the past. Now he was... Listen, here's what I mean by that. Messiah had told the disciples, His apostles, He said, 'now some of you,' said, 'the Devil will put into prison, and some of you he will put to death.' But said, 'now, be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of Life.' And so now, when He's telling
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each one of 'em what's all that's going to befall them before He ascended, then there was one man there, he wanted to know, since He didn't say anything about him, and that was John. He, He never told us about what was gonna happen to John. 'Now what's going to happen to him?' And so He said to him, said, 'what if I will that he tarry, till I come. What is that to thee?' But now his life... The thing I'm trying to tell you is this: his life is preserved through all that murderous state, through all that imprisonment, and through all of the trials and tribulations. God brought him out of it every time, so that he could be prepared to be on the Isle of Patmos to receive the Vision, to confirm what Moses and the Prophets had seen, and that Yahshua the Messiah had fulfilled everything that Moses and the Prophets had said. Now he had to be a witness to it, John out there. That's why he was out there on the Isle.
And I've tried repeatedly to show you this, that when Moses, when he went up into the mountain... Freddie, get busy and get that thing out of the way there, somehow or another. Do something. I'm up against it. When Moses went up here into the mountain and he saw that great heavenly anthropomorphic Being, as we oft express it, or in here in Exodus 24:9 and 10. Brother, it's in the book. It's in the Book that Moses was called in the midst of the cloud, and there he saw in the midst of the cloud, he saw that figure. Up in the mountain, the cloud covered the mountain and Moses saw it up there. And now Moses, what he saw in that cloud up there of how he was to write it in a book, and the book was to be dedicated and sprinkled with blood. It was a covenant. Now then here he saw Him as a great heavenly anthropomorphic Being. Now listen close at me, because you don't hear this kinda preaching and teaching often. Now what Moses seen as pertaining to the creation, or I'm talking about the physical universe now, he said that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and the earth was void, and the... I'm just making a long story short and trying to tell you how you, so you can see it. The first chapter of Genesis, he's writing what he saw in the Vision, down in ____. Moses didn't know anything more about what God did on the first day, second day. And the fact of the matter, God never done nothing on no day no how. God created the, the universe in the realm of eternity, He didn't create it in no days or nothing like that. Because God had to have a day in order to create a day within a day. That was in the realm of eternity. This universe hasn't, didn't come in existence in no days. Nothing like that. While as God inhabited eternity, and when Moses entered into the midst of that cloud, and there he heard, just like John heard on the Isle of Patmos. John said, I heard a Voice from Heaven. Here's Moses back here, hearing the Voice from Heaven. He said, I heard. And he said, and the Voice said, 'Let there be light.' And there was light. Moses is hearing something, too. And he went on down into the second day and he heard the Voice again. Said, 'Let the waters from beneath the earth be divided from the waters from above.' Moses is hearing and he's seeing, just like John out on the Isle of Patmos. He's hearing and he's seeing. And if what Moses wrote down was the truth, then it's got to be confirmed by John on the Isle of Patmos. John said this out there on the Isle of Patmos, said: 'and the earth was surrounded by water.' So said Moses in the beginning of his Vision. It doesn't mean in the beginning of the creation but it's the beginning of the vision. No, that's not the beginning of creation, the creation of the heavens and the earth, that's not the beginning of creation. But well then, if that's not the beginning of creation, then
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what is the beginning of creation? I want you to see what the actual beginning of creation was, when God or Yahweh, who is Spirit and compre... incomprehensible. You can't see Him. You can't hear Him. You can't taste, you can't smell, nothing. Therefore, if you can't perceive that He's there, you can't give no description of it at all. But He Himself had to take on shape and form, and that is Elohim, that you got, have down up there. And that's this up here, this shape and form, which come from Pure Spirit. And He takes on that shape and form and He had to take on that shape and form before He begins to create anything. And Moses is now, is seeing Him there. He sees Him first there in this shape and form. Let's see how that figures out, Roger. Then if that's true, that Moses saw Him first, and he sees the earth surrounded by water there, I'm talking about Moses now. Then for John to verify and to confirm, he can't see nothing different. And when Moses said, the waters, the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters and the earth was inundated or surrounded by waters. That's what Moses saw in the beginning of his vision of the creation of the physical heavens and earth.
And now we test the, the validity of the story. And now here is John, he's got to be in the selfsame condition. John is on the Isle of Patmos. And an island certainly is that which is surrounded by water, as Moses said in the beginning that it, the earth was surrounded by water. And he heard Him speak, heard that Voice from Heaven. And John is out here on the Isle of Patmos, as I told you, to verify and to confirm, so he got to be on an island surrounded by water. I just got through telling you that Moses saw Him in a vision, there, as a, as a Man. And there the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Now John here is saying in repetition to that, said he heard a Voice behind him, and so he said he turned to see the Voice that spoke with him that he heard from Heaven. He turned to see that, He saw the selfsame thing that Moses said he'd seen when he was up in the mountain. And he is out there on the Isle of Patmos. And now, here it goes on down to confirm everything that was done. And as we go on down and we see that what Moses has written and what John has written in the Book, they're the things that, as we told you, that shall be hereafter. We're showing you how it was nothing else but just a constant repetition, over and over and over. And when John turned around there and Moses said he saw the Tabernacle, said he saw the Sanctuary up there, and he was told to make that. And now here John describes Him. Said He had... This is the Sanctorum of Sanctorums, just like this is the Transfiguration up here. And now, John is on the Isle of Patmos, said, 'His eyes were as flames of fire,' and, 'His feet as burnished brass.' And when you look, applied to the Outer, Outer Court here, you see them vessels: a brazen altar and a brazen lav..., brazen. That's down at the feet there. And what Moses is seeing, when he was told to make that Tabernacle, or make that.., because it is a pattern or a figure of heavenly things. And so Moses made it just like it was. So then, this is Him transfigured. So then His feet has got to be as the feet of burnished brass. And then, when John looked at Him and saw Him walk in the midst of the Seven Golden Candlesticks. Somebody says, 'well, listen Doc, I want you to come on up out of the Old Testament. I want you to read to me over here in the New Testament.' Well, I beg your pardon. You just don't understand what the New Testament is. You don't understand no parts of it, because this is as far over as you get now. And John said that he saw Him walking in the midst of the Seven Golden Candlesticks and He had the Seven Stars in His right hand.
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And He said, 'now John, what you see, you write in a book and send it to the seven churches which is in Asia.' Here comes the Devil now, and here he comes and says that John and he was not elected the second pope after the death of Peter, but it was Linus and so forth and so on. And you don't see where that God told him to send his manuscript out to the Vatican to have it imprimatured by anybody there. He said, 'send it to the Seven Churches which is in Asia.' That's what the Voice of Heaven, from Heaven said, 'send it to...' And that's where John sent it, was to the Seven Churches in Asia. Now sometimes I wonder why that He said send it to the Seven Churches which is in Asia. And now then, for that reason we had that map drawn out down yonder, so that you could see where that the Seven Assemblies or the Seven Churches in Asia, and just before He ascended, He told them, He said, 'When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place, whosoever readeth, let him understand,' Understand what the Holy Place is. And now when you begin to check it out by the pattern: got the Outer Court, it's the Holy Place here, and then you pass on through the vail and you go into the Most Holy Place. And this is synonymous and symbolical to the Throne of God where John is hearing the Voice from, from Heaven. And now he's standing in the, John's in the Holy Place here.
Now when you get it all figured out according to the geographical maps of the Earth. There goes Freddie again. And then Peter, he went on to Babylon. The Papacy says, the Devil said he didn't go to, to Babylon, they say he went to Rome. But there's a stone that was cut loose from the mountain. It rolled on down through Babylon, down through Media, Persia, Grecia, and on down into Rome. And when the Messiah was telling Peter about when he was young he girded himself and he went where he wanted to, but when he was old, that he would be girded by someone else and took someplace where he didn't want to go. And there, if you look up the history of it, you'll find that Peter was in Mary Mark's house, the mother of John Mark. And I don't have time to go into all of the story. But it had been predetermined or back in the prophecies here that Peter was to go to Babylon. And so Mark girded Peter, and he took him on into the head of that thing. And that head is a, is a, is a boss of this head here, took him on into the head, or took him on into Babylon, and Peter died there too. And now here's that Apostle Paul, I told you about him, he went on to Rome. And John, he went to the Isle of Patmos. Now if you look where the geographical location of the Isle of Patmos is, you'll find it in the chest cavity. And that's where John was at. And he said, 'I was in the Spirit, on the Lord's Day,' and he heard that Voice from Heaven saying, 'Write.' He was in the Spirit and heard that Voice saying, what you see to write it in a book and send it to the Seven Churches which is in Asia. Now that was in confirmation, as I've already told you, of what Moses had wrote, and what Moses had seen. And now his life was preserved that he be on the Isle of Patmos, and to clear it up so that Genesis, Revelation and all of that would come together, and it would be a confirmation that this whole entire Revelation, from Genesis to Revelation, or from cosmogony to eschatology, that means the origins, the beginnings and the ending, and there wouldn't be no foolishness in its operations and its functions.
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And now when I saw and I understood, in the vision that I received, then it was contrary to what I had in my mind. So then I had to go on back, and I had to show you that I saw the selfsame vision that Moses saw. I saw the selfsame Vision that John saw on the Isle of Patmos, and I come to impart it to you, in the closing of this Dispensation and in the closing of this Age. And it's up to you whether you wanna believe or not. And the things that I say to you, I know good and well that theologians are not going to believe me any more so than the Sanhedrin Council believed in the Messiah and the apostles in those days. But nevertheless, it is true.
And so now, I want you to see here how this chart was made, so that you can see that what Moses seen about building the Sanctuary, which he's seeing about the figure here. And I want to bring it on down through the Ages so that you can see. Now we talked about Moses seeing and hearing that Voice from Heaven. It's got to be confirmed. Moses, back there hearing, listen close because it's hard to utter. That's the reason why Paul said, 'I knew a man, above fourteen years ago, that was exalted up into the third heaven, and heard things impossible for a man to utter.' If the Holy Spirit don't utter it through me, I can't utter it to save my life. Your education is insufficient and inadequate. And then, neither can you understand it unless you kinda give some attention to it. You can't fool with the baby and think about the biscuits, or something you left on the stove. You're not gonna do too well even after you have listened close and tried to understand. You're not gonna do too well at that. But I want you to see, and I want you to understand, and I want you to understand the vision that was given to me to confirm what Moses and all of the Prophets and John on the Isle of Patmos, and I want you to see how it fits together with unerring accuracy. And I have said repeatedly, time and time again, if what God had seen or showed me in a vision, if it didn't confirm what the rest of 'em said, it wasn't no good. But if it confirmed it, you can't deny it and the same thing will judge you in the last day.
And I'm trying to give you an opportunity to accept, and I'm telling you all the time that out yonder into Christiandoom (Christendoom?), they're not gonna allow you to preach and to teach like this at all. Because the.., first of all, they don't know themselves what they're talking about. So now here, if God told Moses to make all things according to the pattern which was shown him in the Mount... And so now, Moses, when he come down out of the Mount, he made everything according to that pattern which was shown him in the Mount. And that pattern was a, was a, was the Tabernacle or the Sanctuary. It had a Most Holy Place, it had a Holy Place and an Outer Court. Now it was three-fold: one, two, three. In fact it was a pattern, and listen, it was a pattern and figure of everything that there is in existence. It don't make no difference what it is. God and the Creation. That's the Pattern of it. And if you don't understand that, you don't know what it's all about. It don't make no difference where you come from, and it don't make no difference about your credentials and it don't make no difference about your education, you don't know what it's all about. You just don't know. That's all it is to it. And now I've said that, and when I speak, I have spoken. So we can go into it. Now God told Moses to make, he heard that Voice, 'now, you make it like I told you.' Heard that Voice from Heaven. You make it like I told you. No sooner than Moses had descended the mountain, he saw 'em down there worshipping the Golden Calf.
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And Moses threw down the Tables of Stone and, and broke the Tables of Stone. Somebody says, 'he broke the Law.' I beg your pardon, he broke the Tables of Stone. And you'll have to check your Bible: said he broke the Tables of Stone, it didn't say that he broke the Law. Then, let me go on about this. And then Moses begin to tell them, making a long story short, how the Tabernacle that he had seen in the Mount had been.., was supposed to be constructed, and how it was supposed to build, be built. And there's Abiram, Dathan and Korah down there at the foot of the mountain, and they thought they knew so much about architecture and how to build, do construction work, more than Moses. God had showed Moses. They begin to tell Moses that the things he was talking about was wrong. 'Don't build it like this.' And Moses didn't have time to fool with 'em. Said, 'Just drew a line.' Said, 'now, whoever's on the Lord's side,' said, 'you get over on this side. And whoever's on Abiram, Dathan and Korah's side, get over on the other side.' And when they stepped over on the other side, the earth just opened up and swallowed 'em up. And Moses went on and builded the Tabernacle just like God had showed him and told him in the vision.
And so now, what we're talking about now, everything in existence, from the atom, from everything. Paul said, 'the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.' Nobody's got no excuses for not knowing something about God as He really is. God is three-fold; that is to say, He's Yahweh, Elohim, and Yahshua. Yes, we have it up on the board here. And as He said now, He come in His Father's name. I wanna touch this. And His Father's name was Yahweh. And when He took on shape and form, that's what you see here in the vision, then that's Elohim. That's Yahweh in shape and form, in shape and form. And then Moses looked at Him, and he saw Him in shape and form that appeared in the mountain, and he said that God.., you have in your Bibles, but it isn't true, he said, 'Elohim made the Man in His own likeness and in His own image.' So if He's gonna make him in His likeness, in His own image, then here, if His name was Yahweh when He come in His Father's name, then don't you see Yah here, and it's got to be Yah-shua. This is, this is, this is who you call Jesus. But He can't be called Jesus because Yah is His Father's name, and He come in His Father's name, and His Father's name, and Jesus Christ is no parts of it. I'm just giving it to you straight. You can have it if you want it. You can turn it down if you, if you don't want it. It's all right with me. And then he said that Man, he heard, Moses said he heard God say, 'Let us make man in our own likeness and in our own image.' So if the Godhead is three-fold: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one, and if Man is made in His own likeness and in His own image, which Moses said that he was, then you got to be in the likeness and image of God. That is to say, you got to be pneuma, psyche and soma, or soul, body and spirit just like He was. Then when you go on back into atomic research, and on down into geology, and on down into paleontology, and anything, any kind of science you wanna talk about... And then you will find there in the, you will find that a carbon and a silicon and a magnesium atom, it is a proton and a neutron and electron. Every speck of matter is shaped and formed as it is to reflect the Godhead in nature. That's why the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. Moses made the Tabernacle. It was three-fold. Noah made
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the Ark and it was three stories. And then, so now, Noah had heard that Voice from Heaven, too. Said, Noah heard the Voice from Heaven, said, 'Make me an ark. The end, the end of all flesh has come before me.' That Voice come to him straight from Heaven. And then, He told him just how to make it. And so Noah built that Ark three stories high. ____ ____ ____ ____, I don't have time to hang around, now I've got to hasten on. Noah built this ark. And he built it just like the Voice from Heaven told him to build it, and that was three stories. God done made the man like that. And every operation and every function, each and everyday of that creation... I think I oughta go back here and touch it. Every day, when you read down through Genesis, the first.., you'll find that God divided the waters. What'd He do that for? Somebody said, 'well, you're meddling in God's business.' I beg you pardon. I'm not meddling in God's business, because the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and the Outer Court is divided. Those three factions and those three are parts or constructed parts, is in that Tabernacle. And that's why they have to be in an atom. That's why they have to be in the man. That's why they have to be in Noah's Ark. That's why they have to be in the Tabernacle that Moses made. That's why they got to be in the Temple. You don't have no excuse at all. God's eliminated and abolished every excuse that you could have. And let me say this, in the beginning of that migration when Moses brought the Children of Israel... In the beginning. Now listen at me close here, because you never heard this before. In the beginning, when you put the blood on each side of the lintels of the door at the Passover down in Egypt, it was dark down there when they put that on there. And Moses heard that Voice, and He told him there, that Voice from Heaven, and He told him about this Passover. And It told him to do it here; He had told him to do it: to put the blood on each side of the lintels of the door and up over the posts. And Moses prepared that Passover according to that Voice that he heard from Heaven. And that's before Israel left there. And it was dark down in Egypt.
Now watch this one. Watch it close so you can see, cause I'll be on over in Revelation 11:8. Get it for me somebody, because John has got to see the selfsame thing. I want you to see that how John is confirming that which was written, and Messiah, when He was walking around in the flesh, He was fulfilling what Moses and the Prophets had said. And John, he's out there on the Isle of Patmos, and all, the whole thing is just tying right in together. And it's the thing that the ministry don't understand today anymore so then they did out here before. And it is the way that God has prepared to judge the world in righteousness, by that Man whom He hath ordained. That is to say, the Man whom He ordained fulfilled every jot and every tittle of it, and passed it out of the way. And He made a fool out of the, the wise and the smart boys that was dealing in them things in matter. And when they moved them Carnal Ordinances.., the world out here, the Papacy and the Protestant Churches too, is going on dib dabbling in the things that was under the Old Covenant, such as water baptism, foot washing. Yes sir, I'm telling you about it. That's all there is to it, cause I heard a Voice from Heaven. And that's it. Say, getting out up here John, John is out on the Isle of Patmos, and I want you to see how he confirms this what's down here. And let me just tell you the story about it here first before I move on, so you can see some reality in the story and you can realize that it is not a fantastic tale of ideology. He put that blood on each side of the lintels of the door and that Lamb was slain down there,
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it was a figure. As John said, that Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. In the Purpose of God even before He made the man, He made the preparation for his restoration, because it's no surprise to God that the man fell. And because He prepared the sacrifice to offer for his restoration and his redemption even before He, He made the world. And His professing it down here, all at, in, in, in Egypt. Now listen, while I try to get into this chronologically and every other kind of way. This Passover down here, told him to draw a Lamb of the first year, draw him out. In the, or the first.., this shall be the beginning of the months. He told him to draw him out on the tenth of the month. Well, why would we tell you to draw him out on the tenth? Did you ever stop and think of, that the flood was one year and ten days? Did you ever stop to think that after He tarried on earth forty days, and ascended into Heaven, it was ten days before the Holy Spirit was poured out? Did you ever stop to think about that? Told him to draw him out on the 1Oth, and then, then to offer him up on the 14th. Did you ever stop to say that this here is a seven here, that it's operating. And this is the second time? So the, this is the first time, and that's seven. And seven and seven used to make 14. So then, take him on out of there and offer him up on the 14th. Because He.., first He was the lamb slain. That's the first seven before the foundation of the world, and this down here is a reflection of it, to offer Him up on the 14th. And so now, it was dark down in Egypt when Moses put the blood on each side of the lintels of the door. And therefore, after putting that blood on each side of the lintels of the door.., somebody get up and point out something around here, because I can't hold it all by myself. I'm telling you what God showed me in the vision, and I'm telling you I have never gotten over it yet. And I see the insufficiency and the inadequacy in all of the present day ministry here. And I know that they don't know what they're talking about. And they don't understand the vision and the revelation. If they did, then people could have something and they wouldn't be staggering around, falling around, and getting your foot off of the rock, up today and down tomorrow. And so now, when He put that blood unto the lintels of the door, look, it was dark down in Egypt, and this is called the Passover. Now if you look right over to the Passover, Christ our sacrifice, He's..., Christ our Passover, He's sacrificed for us. So when He hung, hung out there on Golgotha according to your gospel, Matthew, Mark and Luke, when He hangs out there, it's got to turn dark over the face of the earth from the sixth to the ninth hour. And to end, the sin that Adam died, that He's here to redeem it. Or the second Adam, when He died there, then He was slain, died out there on the cross. And let me tell you, as it was black down in Egypt, it's got to turn black if it's gonna be fulfilled. It's got to turn dark over the face of the earth, from the sixth to the ninth hour. And there they took Him down off the cross, Joseph and Nicodemus, and laid Him in Joseph's own new tomb hewn out in the earth, a rock of the earth, and rolled a stone up to the door. Now if you'll go right on back in the creation then you'll find on the third day, that the waters surrounded the earth. And Mother Earth, she's inundated and she's buried in there. And the spirit moved on the face of the waters and impregnated Mother Earth with the seed of vegetation. And when the waters was rolled off of her... As what? The waters down yonder, as was the stone rolled away from Joseph's new tomb on the third day. And as the seed of vegetation penetrated the soil on the third day, the seed of Abraham penetrated, how that seed come up on out of that grave on the third day. And so now you can see the relationship of one thing to the other. And now
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here's John, his life is preserved and he's out on the Isle of Patmos to find out whether that is authentic or not, or whether it's a divine revelation from God or not. We told you that was Moses and them down there in Egypt. And they told 'em to slay that lamb and how to use his blood. And when that Passover, when that angel passed over, listen at me now, He said from the first born of him that set on the throne of Pharaoh's son and everybody where the blood was not. Then He would kill both man and beast. Now let's see what John has to say about it, because he's out here on the Isle of Patmos and he's looking back at, at it. And he's told that what he's seen, write in a book and send it to the seven churches in Asia. Now, let's see how he collaborates with it. Rev. 11:8. ____ ____ ____ ____ ____
Reader: And their dead bodies shall lie in the streets
Dr. Kinley: And their dead bodies shall lie in the streets
Reader: of the great city
Dr. Kinley: of the great city
Reader: which spiritually
Dr. Kinley: which spiritually. I told you that man was in the spirit, he was in the realm of eternity. He's looking back and he's seeing what is happened here. And he said, their dead body shall lie in the streets of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. Read. Read.
Reader: which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt
Dr. Kinley: Yeah
Reader: where also our Lord was crucified
Dr. Kinley: where also our Lord was crucified. So the offering up of that pascal lamb was signifying the offering of the Lamb of God out there upon Golgotha. And John is out there on the Isle of Patmos. And he said, spiritually where also our Lord was crucified, in Sodom and in Egypt. Now, there we have a confirmation of that. And John's just writing down what he heard and what he saw. And now let's move on a little further. And now, we talked about. We talked about Moses seeing the heavens and earth come into existence. I, I want you to see in there, about him hearing that Voice and those.., now listen close, cause you'll get lost, cause it's hard for me to utter. Now I want you to take 10:4 now, back up to Revelation 10:4. Now if Moses sees the cloud covered this mountain six solar days... And I told you that God didn't create nothing in the realm of time. He created it in eternity. And that is 1490 years after they come out of Egypt. The cloud, where the earth and heavens and everything was already created, it's just nothing else but a re-run. And He's showing it to Moses in a vision out here. And so in the beginning of the vision, he saw that the heavens and the earth were surrounded by water. And so he hears that Voice from Heaven saying "Let there be light," and the light is divided. And he's seeing on the second day, and on the third day, and on the fourth day, the fish... Everything's divided up. Look at Genesis, and you can see whether it is talked about. And no theologian that I've ever come in contact with, no commentators that I've ever come in contact with, was able to tell me why that God divided the light from the darkness and why He divided the waters from above from the waters beneath, and why God divided the
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fish in the sea from the birds in the heavens, and why God divided the sexes. Ain't never been able to tell me nothing about it, because they don't know nothing about the pattern, and they don't know that He is, Himself, the Archetype Pattern, and He is functioning. And as I said before, He's the same God, He's a up to date God, and He's continued to function just that way, then..., in, in unerring accuracy. And there's nothing that has been in the past but what isn't in the future. And there's nothing in the future but what isn't in the, in the past, because God inhabits eternity and He is eternal. And He doesn't go by days and months and what not. It's the man and the prophesies that He's fulfilling for that time. Now here, as with Moses, here he says 'let there be light, and let,' that Voice from Heaven, and he hears that Voice from Heaven talking about each one of these seven days. Did you get that? Now here's John on the Isle of Patmos, Revelations 10:4. And let's see what he's got to say about it. Alright, read. Revelations 10:4. We've got to get the confirmation of these things. Somebody find, find it quick and read it quick.
Reader: And when the seven thunders
Dr. Kinley: And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices. Each one of these days, He saw Him thundering His Voice off from Mt. Sinai and said, 'let this be, let that be,' and he said the next day He thundered His Voice on down. And John was out here to see and hear that repetition of it. And he heard the seven thunders utter their voices. And then what happened?
Reader: I was about to write
Dr. Kinley: And John said, since you told me what you've seen, write it in a book and send it to the seven churches which is in Asia. And John said when he heard the seven thunders utter their voices, he said, 'I was about to write.' And then something happened. What happened?
Reader: And I heard His voice
Dr. Kinley: And I heard a voice, I heard the Voice. Alright, read on.
Reader: Saying unto me
Dr. Kinley: Saying unto me
Reader: seal up those things which
Dr. Kinley: seal up those things
Reader: which the seven thunders uttered
Dr. Kinley: which the seven thunders uttered
Reader: and write them not
Dr. Kinley: and write them not. Why don't you want me to write when you told me to write? Because Moses has already written them. It's not necessary...
TAPE 2, SIDE 1
Dr. Kinley: When Dr. Harris was up here talking about ____ ____, and the time was at hand. You remember I told you there wasn't but 2000 years from that time, or in other words, He was born, the Messiah was born, on the 4000th year. And you
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didn't have but two more thousand years to get down to.... (TAPE CUTS OUT.) 2000 years and the close. So, the time is at hand and nearly 1932 years of that is gone and here you set right face to face with God in eternity. And my aim is to wake you up. And I want you to see that the reality of God is living today as it was then. And I want you to know that it's just as vivid in me as it was in Moses and in, in the prophets, and all of those patriarchs. Yes, Abraham after the flood. Now we told you about Noah hearing that Voice from Heaven. Now here comes Abraham. He heard it, that Voice from Heaven. Abraham, I'm talking about. He said, 'Get on out from among your kin folk. Get on out of the land of Ur and go into a land that I'll show you.' And Abraham moved on out. By faith Abraham, when he heard that Voice from Heaven, got his flocks and his herds. Said walk thou up before him and be thou perfect. So he went on to promise Abraham a son, Isaac. To cut it up short, He promised Abraham a son by his wife Sarah. Abraham, an old man, well stricken in age, and his seed of fertility was dead within his body. And Sarah, she's barren from birth. But nevertheless, that Voice from Heaven had prom..., promised him a son. And Abraham believed in God and it was promised unto him. And he didn't stagger at the promise at all. So then Isaac, who came through the loins of Abraham, was typical of Yahshua the Messiah.
Now that's a dispen..., that's another dispensation. Now we move on down to the next episode. We move on down here to the Tower of Babel. Let's see if we can see what that's all about. Now God, when he showed Noah the rainbow there in the sky, He confirmed that covenant. And told him, that Voice from Heaven said he wouldn't drown the world by water any more, that Voice from Heaven. That's why we show promise and He showed the rainbow out there, out there. He put His bow in the sky, which was seven prismatic colors in it, and told him that He wasn't gonna drown any no more by water. And so now Noah believed and offered up a sacrifice. But his posterity and Nimrod and them said they ain't gonna take no chance on it. They went to work to build up the Tower of Babel. That God said He wasn't gonna do it. But listen here, if you can't take no chance on that, just like the people, don't wanna take no chance on nothing that God says. Now then gonna do it yourself and do it their way. And so then, they went to work to build that tower and then, here comes that Voice from Heaven, 'Let us go down and confuse their tongues.' That Voice, straight down there and then their tongues was confused.
I don't have time to stop there either. But while I am there, I'll just touch that. And you would just step over here at Pentecost. Now at Pentecost, the same God that spoke from Heaven and re-unconfused their tongues, and they said 'How hear we every man speak in our own tongue wherein we were born?' That self same God, when that Voice that they was hearing from Heaven.
And by and by, they're hearing, it comes on down, and hearing this Voice from Heaven, comes on down and speaks to Mary and to Elizabeth and told 'em what she was gonna have, a son. And then she was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. And here, Gabriel goes in and tells Mary that she was going to be, have a son and by the Holy Ghost, and she was greatly favored. And Mary, she went, or Marian she went to Elizabeth and told her about it. But John had got the message about
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Elizabeth's pregnancy and the birth of John, for that Voice is coming from Heaven. That Voice had told Isaiah that he would send John.
Now listen at this folks. Listen at it so you can see what it's all about. And it'll help with some of our arguments. Now Moses, he had to come and bring the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt and baptize them in the Red Sea. And I want you to know, Roger, that all of them is Jews, and every last one of 'em was circumcised that was baptized in the cloud and in the sea. And they went into the wilderness. Now listen here, John, Jesus said we're gonna fulfil (fulfill?) it. Then he got to, John has got to come along. Now he can't baptize, and he can't baptize the Gentiles. He ain't baptizing nobody but the Jews, because nobody but the Jews come out of here. And if He's fulfill it, then he can't baptize nobody but the Jews right here. And we say that cloud overshadowed the Israelites and when they got up to the Red Sea... Listen now folks, cause I'm trying to tie it together so you can see. And there that cloud that led them, it had got up over the Red Sea and there's mountains on both sides. The cloud, I said the cloud. I want you to bear in mind we're talking about clouds all the time symbolizing eternity. Then Moses with some mountains on each side, and the Egyptians pursuing 'em in behind. And Moses and them, they cried unto the Lord, said, 'why for criest thou unto me?' That Voice from Heaven, 'what's that you got in your hand?' That rod. And so he raised up that rod when he heard that Voice from Heaven and that waters rolled back. And it's that Voice from Heaven. And they was baptized in the cloud and in the Sea. Now you got the cloud and the sea and the Voice from Heaven. Alright, now here comes along the fulfillment of it. When John and Jesus out yonder, out there John was baptizing in the River Jordan and in Enon. And when the Messiah went to him to be baptized... Listening again? Are you listening? Then the cloud overshadowed, the cloud... And this is the same John that's writing Revelation. The cloud overshadowed, and the Voice, John heard that Voice from Heaven saying, 'this is My beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased,' in that cloud. And if Israel went on up out of the wilderness and went in there and stayed there 40 years, then that means then that this cloud that overshadowed Him, and He's got to go straightway out there and He's got to tarry in the wilderness of Judea 40 days and 40 nights, if He fulfills it. Oh, it's wonderful when you put it together. The Bible is accurate. It's infallible. It's our stupidity and it's our colossal ignorance. And if you knew, only knew how to put it together, then we could convert this people. We could prove to them that there really is a sure enough God. And He's not dead, and He's alive today just the same as He was in all of these instances that we're talking about. And that's what I come along for, to prove to you. And Yahshua the Messiah said, 'now if I don't do the works of My Father, Him that sent Me, don't you believe me.' And I tell you the selfsame thing. If I don't do the works of Him that sent me, since I say I had a vision and the revelation, ask you to make me prove it, and then if I don't do it, then don't you believe me. And then, listen up folks, listen. I got to know what's going on. I got to know what's going on through all of the dispensations and ages. I got to put this thing together, and put it together right, so that you can see, so that you can understand, so that you can know. When those waters come together there in the Red Sea... Now here when Jesus was buried in Joseph's new tomb, there was an earthquake. A great earthquake. And the earth trembled there when God spoke from Mt. Sinai, the earth, she trembled. And then somebody setting up,
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telling things that he's so smart and all that kinda thing. Don't you tell me, when God speaks through me, you tremble. You might try to cover up and hide it, you sure cover up. ____ ____ Billy Graham and all that ____ ____ ____. So now here, when that stone was rolled away there at that door, there was an earthquake. And now look, He was a redeemer. Now look, just turn it right on back, clear on back to Adam. Where Adam sinned, he died in ____ ____ ____. He's the regenerator. So then, and we run Him all on over here. Many of the saints that slept in the dust of the earth rose and went on into Jerusalem. There's another earthquake. They got up. They come on up out of the graves, Matthew 27:52, and they went on into Jerusalem. The liar over here, and saying they went to Rome, but I beg your pardon. You got to have this Mystery of Iniquity and this Mystery of God together. Well I meant to show you the Mystery of God now. So now, when you see that how them, the, they, they, they, too. Somebody said, 'well listen here.' Said, 'when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he was dead four days, they thought that was a stupendous miracle.' And it was. Martha and Mary, they said that they believed that they would see their brother in the last day. Messiah said to 'em, I am the resurrection, and the life, he that believeth on me, though he were dead, all of these back there really were dead, yet shall he live. And he that "liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Do you believe this? Here, they couldn't understand it. Just like the people as of today, you can be resurrected setting right there in your seat, if you're dead. She that liveth in pleasure is dead yet while she lives. You can't feel nothing in your consciousness and all them different kinda things, after all the preaching we done, you're dead, but you can be resurrected if you believe it. My job is presenting it to you so that you can see, cause faith comes by hearing. You don't have no faith in the thing lest you see how it's put together. You are speculating with it and you're presumptuous about it, really whether it is so or not. Some people think the Children of Israel coming out of Egypt was a figment of imagination, all that kinda thing. This thing is steeped in the Cyclops of Jewish and Grecian mythology. It's not. It is a living reality and it functions within you all the time. You don't have to say, 'heart, beat; lungs, breathe,' do you? This pattern lives and it's functioning within you all the time. He that liveth and believeth in me shall, yet shall he live. So now when He went in there, He is the resurrection and the life, go to raising Lazarus from the dead. He's dead four long days. And four days, one day with the Lord is a thousand years and a thousand, 4,000 years from back there to up here, 4,000 years when He was born. Remember I told you He only had two more. So He stays up yonder in Bethany for four days. Goes in there, back down, down there and raises Lazarus from the dead, and tells Martha and Mary that 'I am the resurrection and the life.' They said, 'if you had just been here my brother would not have died.' He said, 'I am the resurrection and the life, he that believeth on Me, though he was already dead, yet shall he live; and he that liveth and believeth in Me, shall never die. Don't you believe this?' And so they said there, I believe I'll see.., we know we'll see our brother in the last day.' So when He went on into the heart of the earth there, come out of the heart of the earth. After His resurrection, so states Matthew, many of the saints which slept in the dust of the old earth, rose and went on into Jerusalem. And that was old Job back yonder, one that was looking forward to the thing. Just to give you an idea, old Job back yonder, when his wife told him, when he was smitten with sores and boils and all them different kinda things, wife said to him, said, 'look here Job, why don't you just go and curse God
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and die?' And so Job said, 'you talk like a fool.' He said, 'well, what's if I talk like...' And said, 'because I know that my redeemer liveth and he shall stand in the earth at the latter day. Yes, though skin worms defile this body of mine, yet in my flesh shall I see God for myself and not for another.' Ezekiel done talked about them dry bones in the valley, laying those sinews upon 'em, which is the whole house of Israel. And here, now here comes the resurrection and the life, when He raised him from the dead. Here come Job and all the rest of 'em, that's clear on back down in there. Walked on into Jerusalem, Jerusalem beneath, and appeared to many. It don't make no difference whether you believe it or not. It is so any how. They went on in there, they went into Jerusalem. You're reading. Ascend on into the heavenly Jerusalem. Yes, so I want you to see that now. And all of these things, if you'd tie 'em all in, it's nothing else but just a constant repetition of that functioning, and that working all the way down. And it never errs, it never digresses, it never deviates, and we're going by that pattern all the time. God is the Archetype Pattern and He is functioning through the dispensations and ages. Now look, this looks like a, going back over it, a back side of it any.., wanna show you. We just got through reading about Revelations 10:4, and I'm trying to show you what John is doing out there on the Isle of Patmos. He said he heard a Voice from Heaven. Now if you look in the 24th chapter of Exodus, which I don't have time to fool with right now, you'll find that the, in the 24th chapter of Exodus around here in 10 and 16, said the cloud covered it six days. And Moses saw that vision. And here's something else I want you to know while you're in that verse and also in Genesis. I want you to notice it, which I don't, I don't see nobody..., I've never been taught nothing like this. Now you notice it. You got plenty of time, plenty of time to notice it after you go home. If you'll notice, all through the first chapter of Genesis is just one continuous thing, that and goes in there. And, and, and, and, all the way through. And just one continuous thing.
Now if you notice out there on the Isle of Patmos, John didn't say the next day I saw. He did not say that. He saw all of that in that vision in the realm of eternity. But time.., he said he didn't see no night there. Well, if you look at Moses here. Here, Moses don't see no night either. He said the evening and the morning. He doesn't see any night. So he's in the realm of eternity on this day that has no beginning, has no ending. Therefore, he can't distinguish between no night and no day cause right where the night is, that's where the day is. So John on the Isle of Patmos, he is in that same spirit and he said, 'I saw no night there.' So they're both in the spirit. And he didn't say, the next day after this and the next day after that. John didn't and neither did Moses. You get it now? That's why he's putting and, and, and, all the way through that first chapter of Genesis, because when you get down into the 2nd chapter of Genesis. And so these are the generations of the heavens and earth. Listen, not in the six days, but in The Day, that adjective, in The Day or in the Eternal Day where God created everything. Now listen folks, we are in the realm of eternity and we abide within it. We're staying in there. I'll be done in a minute, but I can't, I can't, don't wanna stop here.
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Now I told you about Him creating and hearing the sound of the Voice, hearing the sound of that Voice. The seven thunders uttered their voices. I told you that John was on the Isle of Patmos and Moses sees here..., so he heard the.., as a voice of many waters behind him. He's looking back to Alpha, and Moses is looking to, to Omega. And John and Moses and Messiah and them have got to bring this whole entire, the whole entire Bible has got to be put together that way. And just as it worked in the beginning, it's got to work that way in the ending. Now what I mean, it's got to function by these patterns up in there. Now look, He just got through telling you about them coming out of Egypt. Didn't I just get through telling you about that. Didn't I just get through telling you about their dead bodies lie in the streets of the great city which is called Sodom and Egypt which John is writing about there? ____ ____ ____ Repeat that, read that for me again. And hurry up now cause I, I wanna hurry on through. But I'm..., the thing I'm trying to get over to you, I'm trying to let you know folks, there is a God, and that He's working, and you don't have no alibi, you don't have no alibi to be fooling around here in all them different kinda thing. Listening to hypocrite preachers, they don't know, the majority of 'em, 'we don't know what we're talking about, we're just reading chapters and verses and quoting. We don't know nothing about it.' Alright, read.
Reader: And their dead bodies shall lie in the streets
Dr. Kinley: And their dead bodies shall lie in the streets
Reader: of the great city
Dr. Kinley: of the great city
Reader: which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt
Dr. Kinley: which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt
Reader: where also our Lord was crucified
Dr. Kinley: where also our Lord was crucified. Read.
Reader: And they of the people or kindreds and tongues and nations shall use their dead bodies three days
Dr. Kinley: Now that's three days. Look folks. See where that angel flew over there, it was pitch dark down in Egypt. God killed 'em, from the king that sit on a throne, both man and beast. Why he didn't see the ____ for three days. And their dead bodies, they couldn't see how to put them in the grave or nothing. And that cloud stood between Israel and them. Pharaoh couldn't move without 'em. Three days their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which is called Sodom and Egypt. Three days when the Messiah was crucified out there for three days. You read about it. Alright, read on just a little further.
Reader: and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves
Dr. Kinley: and He shall not suffer their... That fellow, he just... Is he gone? I don't think I'm sorry. But shall not suffer their dead body to be put in the graves.
Reader: And they that dwell upon the earth
Dr. Kinley: And they that dwell upon the earth
Reader: shall rejoice over them
Dr. Kinley: shall rejoice over them
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Reader: and make merry
Dr. Kinley: and make merry
Reader: And shall send gifts one to another
Dr. Kinley: And shall send gifts one to another. I need, I, I, I don't have time to go into all this. Now then you got that part. How John was looking down here and seeing their dead bodies? You see how John is looking down here? Now here we go again, in the wrap up of it. Now the 21st chapter of Revelations shows here how they come out of here. Then that's all he's done, his life was preserved here on the Isle of Patmos, he's seeing in the vision and prophecy. And look folks, you and I both have, look, plenty of books by many a theologian, how the Vatican and ____ all those different denominations, the sects and the occults were not able to put it together like this. But you have to have it put together like this, cause if you don't, you can't have no faith in it. Now let's see here. Read the 21st chapter.
Reader: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth
Dr. Kinley: Now John passed out, I mean the, the, the Children of Israel passed through the Red Sea, baptized in the cloud. This is the first heaven for I saw a new heaven, John is looking at 'em, and a new earth. Read on.
Reader: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.
Dr. Kinley: for the first heaven and the first earth was passed away. Come on, I'm in a hurry.
Reader: and there was no more sea.
Dr. Kinley: and there was no more sea. They passed through here and they'd gone beyond the Red Sea. There was no more sea. Alright, now, and then what?
Reader: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem.
Dr. Kinley: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem. Read fast, I'm in a hurry.
Reader: coming down from God.
Dr. Kinley: Now, John, I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Read.
Reader: And I heard a great voice
Dr. Kinley: Now here we go again. And I heard the Voice. Yes, I heard the Voice from Heaven, just like Moses heard the Voice back here revealed all things. Now it says beyond the sea here, they came up out of Egypt. They offered up the pascal lamb, they're on this side of the sea. The first heaven and the first earth was passed away and there was no more sea. And I John, what do you ____ about that? Look up here, look up here. You notice after they got in there, they went into the region of Mt. Sinai, and that's where they seen, after they had come
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through here. And Moses went up in the mountain and God showed him there. Now John, he's confirming. He said the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there's no more sea. And I John. Read.
Reader: Behold, the tabernacle of God is
Dr. Kinley: Behold, the tabernacle of God, here it is that God told him to build the tabernacle that He may dwell among 'em. That's what He told him. And so now it's after they passed through the Red Sea here that they was called up there. And they built the tabernacle according to the vision showed to him in the mountain. And John said it here, he said, I heard a Voice from Heaven that said. Voice, same Voice as here. Is, Is, Isn't that wonderful. Yes, indeed. And now look, let me tell you this. That's not the first time John heard that Voice. When the Messiah was here walking around on the earth, when the Messiah was here walking around in the earth in order to fulfill this...
Now, now look folks, you, you.., just remember them things which you will have to.., the God was speaking from Mount Sinai. Gave 'em three days to clean up and He spoke from Mount Sinai before He called him up there in the mount. Now the Messiah is gonna fulfill that. So you're reading over here in Matthew, now, what the, the, the so-called Christiandoom (Christendoom?) calls the Beatitudes, 5th chapter of Matthew, where He went.., the multitudes.., and He sat down up there in the mountain. Sat there, up there in the mountain. And His text had to be right because He's fulfilling God speaking from the mount. This is God incarnated in a body and He's setting up in a mountain fulfilling, speaking to them from the top of the mountain, fulfilling that. That's what He's doing. He's fulfilling it. Now Christiandoom has never said a thing ____ about it. They call it the Beatitudes. They don't see no parts of it. They don't realize it.
Now then we go on in, let's take this up in the mountain there. Now here we go back in the mountain. Now you see if you'll catch it this time. Now I told you, after He spoke from the mountain there... Now, the Children of Israel, they were ____ fed. I'm talking about in Matthew now. They were fed that Bread that come down. And there's where they learned of the sabbath day, rest on the sabbath day. I'm talking about feeding 'em manna. Now here Jesus, He takes.., in order to fulfill that, He takes and He feeds the multitudes and then He goes and sits down in the mountain and He speaks to 'em in the mountain. He had to do that to fulfill what He did.
Then after that.., now, I'm in a hurry, but I'm trying to bring it all out so that you can see it now. Now then here He goes now, six days after, Matthew 17:1, and six days after, He takes Peter, James and John up into the Mount of Transfiguration. The world hasn't said a thing about it. And there He takes them up there, Peter, James and John. At the mouth of two or three witness, let every word be established. So He has to take Peter, James and John up in the mount and transfigured before them because here they are up in the mount and He's transfigured before them, those that are going to officiate there in the sanctuary in the tabernacle. So He has to take.., can't be down on the ground, got to be up in the mountain because the seventy up in the mount here. So He takes them up
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in the mount and transfigures there, and His garment was as white as the light, when it's described to you there, and He transfigured before them, Peter, James and John in fulfillment of this.
And as they come down from the mount, then they questioned Him and they talked to Him. Now look, look. Told you the cloud covered the mountain back here. Now when Peter, James, and John was up in the mountain, the cloud covered the mountain there. That's what you got right there in your Book. You, you watch. Keep your eye on the cloud. The cloud covered the mountain. And so now, here He is speaking to them from the cloud. Here comes that Voice. Remember I told you that wasn't the first time that John heard the Voice from Heaven. There at the transfiguration he heard the Voice from Heaven. The Voice from Heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.' That cloud overshadowed Him and that Voice come from Heaven. That had to be done there in order to fulfill this. It had to be that way. That cloud had to overshadow Him there. Oh, I tell you brethren, when you can see how it is put together.
Now Paul sees this. Paul sees this. He sees many of the saints which slept in the dust of the earth rose and went on into Jerusalem. Them sinews. Now you watch this one. I'm after the cloud this time. The 12th Chapter of Hebrews which says, therefore, seeing we are compassed or surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses. All of them from Adam on down who resurrected from the dead and brought life and immortality to light through the power of God to raise Him from the dead. And God, listen, is gonna multiply the seed of Abraham as the sands of the sea and as the stars of Heaven. So, wherefore, seeing we're surrounded, compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin that does so easily beset us, and run with patience the race that is set before us, looking ever unto Yahshua the Messiah, who is the author and the finisher of our Faith.
No wonder Jude said, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints for there are certain men of old who are ordained into this condemnation who have gone out into the world, crept in unawares and turned the grace of our God into lasciviousness, turned them into works. Works of righteousness. They're telling you to get baptized and get your feet washed and all these Carnal Ordinances that was done under the Old Covenant back here. That's what He said. He hid these things from the wise and the prudent.
And now we're offering up spiritual sacrifices. We're in the Kingdom of God. It's spiritual. You are controlled by the Law of the Spirit in them tables of stone off of the ____ ____ ____, and that's why He hid these things from the wise and the prudent and revealed 'em unto babes. And Paul puts it this way in the 8th Chapter of Romans, there is therefore now... Listen at me. No, I can't help you, anyway ____ ____ ____ in Heaven or Hell or ____ real soon.
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This Age is just about to close. The first one was 1656 and this is 1932. 2381 before. And the Messiah said in the 24th chapter of Matthew, except those days be shortened that there wouldn't be no flesh saved. And you've got to hear it. You've got to hear it by faith for you to have this. The word's got to come by faith. You got to see how it's put together. It's got to become a reality in you. You got to know how it works. You got to feel the spirit working within you. It's got to be a reality within you. That's ____ ____ whatever a body says about it. You've got to know it for yourself. The big shots and the leaders of Christiandoom (Christendoom?)... You got to know this place for yourself. It's got to be a fact, fact within you. You individually and personally. It's you that's got to be saved, we don't care nothing about the multitudes and what they say out yonder. You know that it's hid from the wise and them prudent and revealed to the babes.
And all of this natural water baptism, foot washings and everything, all of this carnality and all of this is natural, and all of this over on this side is spiritual, and that's what the boys can't see. And here calling themselves celebrating the things that was done under the Law. And God Himself said... God said it... I'll be done in a very few minutes. God said it, I didn't say it. And that's the thing I'm trying to tell you about now. I heard that Voice from Heaven, confirming. And it showed it to me, how it operated all the way through. And that's the reason why I'm game enough to get out there and talk it and tell you about it. And how He's hid the thing from the wise and them prudent, and revealed it unto babes. And the Apostle Paul said in the 8th Chapter of Romans, 'there is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.' How did you get in Him? He said in 1 Corinthians 12:13, 'by one Spirit are we all baptized into the one body, whether you be Jews or Gentiles.' No water baptism. And they use water baptism. And what.., Jesus said of the.., said, 'He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters.' Don't you know the difference between living water and that that runs behind the pool? John said, this spake He of the Spirit shown to me. Got away from that natural and into the Spirit, and there's where the smart boys got lost. And so now, here we are out here, we're preaching the, listen at me now, we're preaching the remission of sin in His name. Luke said the remission of sin should be preached in His Name beginning at Jerusalem. You can wash all the skin off of it. Drag you through the Pacific, even the Atlantic Ocean and it ain't gonna do you no good. Tried to offer up a bullock, turtledove, but it didn't purify you, unto the sprinkling, or it didn't purify the conscience with that under that Dispensation back there.
(DR. KINLEY STARTS PREACHING HARD AGAIN)
And Paul said, 'how much more shall the blood of Yahshua the Messiah purge.' That's the sacrifice that God has given. ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ He shed His Blood out there on old Golgotha. He offered Himself without spot to purge your conscience from the dead works, from all of this water baptism and all this, or eating these physical suppers that was under the other covenant, and they pointed to spiritual things. And now He's nailed 'em to the cross that they... And now the Kingdom of God is back, the Kingdom back before Him, it stood only in meats and drinks, but now on this side Paul tells us the Kingdom of God is not meats and drink. Well, if it's not that then what is it? It's righteousness, peace and joy in the
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Holy Ghost. And Jesus said of Himself that teeth masticate in your mouth, and it passes on down the esophagus and on down into your stomach and its digested and assimilated. And your intestinal tract passes it on through the abdominal cavity and on into your bloodstream. That's for this physical body. Well, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your inner self, that inner man, which is the Holy Ghost. You've got to have some different bread to that. As the Messiah told 'em, said, 'look here, all of your fathers, they ate that bread back yonder in the Wilderness, but they're dead. But the bread that I shall give, if you eat thereof, ye shall not die. And this water that you're talking about, if you drink it, you'll never thirst. We're talking about Spiritual things. And the Devil is standing there talking about physical things and saying that you got to do these things, and blaming it on the Messiah, that He said go and baptize somebody in physical water. He never said nothing about it. Said, baptize 'em in the Name. He didn't say baptize them in the water. Paul looks at the feast, which you call yourself eating the Lord's Supper, out yonder on the first of every month, Paul said, let us keep the feast of unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I'm feeding you that bread which is the Word of God. I'm baptizing you in the Name and I'm washing your feet, the washing of regeneration in the preaching of the gospel, that Yahshua the Messiah.., everything that He's done is all done in His Name. He's a quickening Spirit and He's in your heart and in my heart. Nothing that you can do. And it's not by works of righteousness which we have done or will do. As it is by His grace are you saved, or by grace are you saved through the faith that not of yourself, it's a gift, free gift of God. You don't merit nothing. Somebody said, 'well, listen here, obedience is better than sacrifice.' Said, 'He said go out there and get baptized in the water.., if it was good enough for Him when John baptized Him, it's good enough for me.' But it says, look here, don't put no lie like that on Him. He didn't say it. Listen folks, He couldn't come and fulfill and abolish the carnal ordinance, which is under the second, under the first covenant, then send somebody out to, to do the things that was done under the Old Covenant. You're a liar. He never sent nobody to do nothing like that. He never told nobody to, to baptize nobody. He never told nobody to eat no Lord's Supper. He never told nobody to keep no Passover. He never told nobody to wash nobody's feet. Somebody said, 'well, you can't read it.' Can't you see here in the 13th chapter of Saint John when Jesus is washing His disciples' feet, and He said to them, says, 'if I be your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.' And He got around to ol' Pete. And he said to Him, Peter looked up at Him and he said, 'you'll never wash my feet.' He said, 'if I don't wash 'em, you won't have no part with me.' And that was physical water which He was washing their feet in. And here comes ____ ____ ____, they're celebrating that they're washing feet, because Jesus washed the disciples' feet. And the Papacy, over there, they celebrate washing feet. But when He told him, got to Peter there, He told him, 'if I don't wash 'em, you won't have no part with me.' He's got to fulfill that law. Moses brought Aaron, Nadab and Abihu to the door of the Tabernacle and he washed, and he put the linen garments on them before they could officiate in the Tabernacle. And so now, if He's gonna fulfill it, He's got to wash their feet. Else they gonna have no part, no part, no parts in that ministry. He's got to fulfill it. And so now when He got around to Peter. Listen at me, folks in here. And there He was down there washing the disciples' feet and Peter said, 'you'll never wash my feet.' He told Peter, said, 'you don't know what I'm doing now.' Yes,
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Peter did know that He was washing their feet. He said, you're never gonna wash his feet, but Peter didn't understand the significance of it. Listen folks. That was the Word of God in the flesh fulfilling the Law and the Prophecy. And it's the Word of God that's washing his feet. And so, if the Word of God don't wash you, you'll never be clean. And I've got to fulfill. Told Peter, said, 'look here, you don't know what I'm doing now, but you shall know hereafter.' And when Peter got the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost and Paul and the rest of 'em, then he turns around and says, 'look here, husbands love your wives even as the Messiah also loved the Church, His bride, gave Himself for it, listen at me folks, that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the water by the Word. It is the washing of regeneration and He is the Regenerator. And it is the Word of God. So now I'm preaching to you the Word of God. And you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. I can wash you all day long down here with a basin and some water. I can drag you up through, as I said, the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean, but you can see whether they understand. ____ ____ somebody said, '____ ____ ____.' Said, 'you can't read?' Can't you see over there in the 8th Chapter of Acts of the Apostles where Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch? Said he stopped the chariot. Said both... Said, 'here's water, what keeps us from being baptized?' The eunuch said to him. Philip said, 'if you believe with all your heart, thou mayest.' And they stopped and both Philip and the eunuch went down into..., I mean physical water. And Philip did baptize in water. And somebody said, 'Philip was carrying out the Great Commission.' No sit still folks. Philip was carrying out the Great Commission and he was going to, to fulfill that which was said there in Matthew 28:19, when He said, Go in all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth on Me and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned. And now, in the 28th chapter, says, baptizing in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And listen here, you haven't.., nobody sitting under the sound of my voice has been baptized in no water, in the Name of Yahweh. Nobody setting under the sound of my voice has been baptized in the Name of Elohim. Nobody setting under the sound of my voice has been baptized in the Name of Yahshua. They told you to go out here and get baptized in the name of Jesus, and in the name of the Father, God. And they told you to get baptized in the Name of the Holy Ghost. And they didn't know what that was. And so, let's get on Philip and the Eunuch. And now listen here, Messiah sent them twelve out to preach. Now look here, I want you to notice the difference now. Those were deacons that was chosen by them to serve tables. The Master, before He ascended, He told the eleven there, Judas was dead. Said, 'you shall be witnesses unto me in Judea, and in Jerusalem and Samaria.' Now watch now, watch the joke, watch the joker. Said, they will be witness unto me. Philip went down to Samaria and he preached the gospel to the whole city of Samaria, and he was full of the Holy Ghost, too. But not a one of 'em down in Samaria got the Holy Ghost, so say the Book. Well, what's the matter? Why didn't they get the Holy Ghost down there? Samaria was the capital of the ten tribes. And now, Messiah putting them twelve tribes back together again, and they are the witness, the ones that He sent to preach the Gospel. Philip wasn't sent. He was persecuted and run off there because of the persecution and went down to Samaria and preached. Nobody's got the Holy Ghost down in Samaria. Then, why should you assume that the Ethiopian Eunuch got the Holy Ghost when Philip baptized him? And now.., and then not only that, Philip.., listen at me now. Listen
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at me close. Philip was on his way home. He wasn't on his way going in all the world to preach the Gospel. Philip lived in Caesarea. And Philip went on away from Gaza after he baptized the Ethiopian eunuch in the water there and he went on to Caesarea. By and by, when time come for the Gentiles to come in down in Caesarea, God sent on up there and told Cornelius to go on up there at Joppa and get Peter. Now, if Philip was carrying out the Great Commission and he lived right across the street there so as to speak from, from, from Cornelius and his household, and he was carrying out the Great Commission, why didn't he go across there and baptize them? Why did God tell him, send out yonder at Joppa, and get, get Peter. And Peter went down there at Caesarea. Then Peter, he spoke. While he's yet speaking, the Holy Ghost fell on them. What God was doing is bringing 'em in according to the way He made the promise to the Gentiles, according to the way that He made the promise to Abraham, that in his seed He would bless all the families of the earth. And have you forgotten that I have told you that there wasn't
(THE FOLLOWING TWO SENTENCES WERE IN THE ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT BUT NOT ON THE TAPE USED FOR PROOFREADING. THE STATEMENTS MUST HAVE BEEN LOST IN TAPE DUPLICATION.) nobody but the Jews that was baptized in the Red Sea. And it wasn't nobody but Jews
TAPE 2, SIDE 2
that was baptized at John's baptism? So then, there can't be nobody but Jews that had any water upon them. And listen, in that planting, when the seed of vegetation was grown up, in the 11th Chapter of Romans, Paul said that the Gentiles, they were grafted on in. How's that happen? Grafted in by faith, and not by planting, but by grafting according to the way He made the promise. And God wasn't mistaken by pouring out the Spirit on them, while he yet spoke there.
And now God has showed to me all these things in a vision. And all of these things that these preachers is out there doing. Got somebody hanging around, taking some crackers and grape juice on plates, and running somebody up in here and blaming it all on the Messiah. He said nothing about it. And listen, you haven't got nothing and you're not gonna get nothing until you straighten up. Faith comes by hearing. Yes, yes, I, I know that looks mean. That looks real mean. But that's what it's all about. That's why this School is founded. They're not gonna let me preach like that out yonder. That's what was revealed to me. And I have carried it on down.
Alright, let me say this to you in conclusion. I've carried it on down and I took it right on down. Can't you see, there's the blood, there's the water..., He rose up from the table and washed the disciples feet, poured out ____ ____. This is where some of them think that this is Day of Pentecost. You got the blood, the water, and the spirit, the blood, the water, and the spirit, blood, the water... Just keep it that way, always, always, clear on down through. Listen here. You can't error. It don't make no difference where you come from, you're wrong too. And let me tell you something, Williams. We don't make mistakes here. And we're not guessing about it. And, what I have seen, I have seen, and to prove it to you,
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every prediction, I really, I don't make predictions. It's the Holy Spirit. And I'm just showing you how the repetitions come up in there. And that's how I can tell you when it's gonna be an earthquake, or what the next thing is to happen. And I never mi.., I never failed. I never miss it. And then somebody setting back there says, 'well, I don't believe it.' I know all of that. Says, 'well now, you've done a good job, you just let me preach it.' But now look, God has raised up me. They've been healed of all kinds of diseases. Even the dead have been raised from the dead. We got medical authorities from all over this country. And you don't know nobody.., listen, I've told you I was through, you don't know nobody, and you don't know nobody that says they know somebody that says they knew somebody, nor do they know about what's going on in the world for 35 years than what I have. Nobody. Nobody. Went right on between life and death, ____ ____ from the other. I told you when Cardinal Stritch would draw his last breath, standing in the pulpit. You're my witnesses. Didn't he die that instant?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: I told you about Pope John the 23rd. I told you when he would die a year before.9 I told you that Pope Pius the 12th would tell a lie, and what the lie was that he would say. Didn't I tell you before he lied? And didn't he tell it?
Dr. Gross: Um hum.
Dr. Kinley: I've told you what's happening all over the world. Children, I'm sincere about it. I'm in earnest. All I'm trying to do is just give you what God has given to me. If you don't want it, it won't make.., it's your salvation. But truthfully, I heard that Voice from Heaven, I heard that Voice and know who sent the prophets and all of 'em have heard. And I was sent in this last day, just before the pulling down of the curtain, to show you the reality of it. And I hope and trust that you will take this for ____ ____ and have benefited (benefitted?) yourself. There's no need to come up here and saying, 'well, they preach that yonder out there at our church. ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____. It just can't be done. God is a Living Reality. It's here now, in you, whether you're conscious of it or not. It's here. ___ ___ ___ And listen, there is but one mediator between God and Man, and that is the Quickening Spirit, and that is God Himself. There is no go between. I am no go between. No popes and no priests and no cardinals, nothing like that to go between Him. It's a quickening Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit in you, that is the only hope of immortal glory.
God be with you.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS)
__________
9 Elohim, the Archetype Original Pattern of the Universe. Vol IV, page 61.
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ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
by Henry Clifford Kinley
Los Angeles, California
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on a reel to reel recorder
transferred to audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 66 CF
1984
originally transcribed by Patricia White
originally proofread by Gerry Rothstein
1997
first proofreading: Mary Colucci
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Susan Ameigh
fourth proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fifth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Dr. Kinley: Alright, read on.
Dr. Harris: in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
Dr. Kinley: in which was offered both gifts and sacrifices,
Dr. Harris: that could not make him that did the service
Dr. Kinley: that could not make him that did the service
Dr. Harris: perfect,
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ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
Dr. Kinley: Perfect. Now, wait a minute. Now, who served in that tabernacle? The high priest. Now, that was the highest tribunal at that time. He was going in and out of the tabernacle, that is the sanctuary, appearing there in the Most Holy Place, I mean listen, going by himself, no company, alone, not without blood. That couldn't make him perfect that did the service. Then how could he make somebody else perfect? Now, if you're able to read, just read what you got in the Book. It just stood for a time present which was offered both gifts and sacrifices which could not make him that did the service perfect as pertaining to conscience. Read on.
Dr. Harris: which stood only
Dr. Kinley: Now, listen, which stood O N L Y. Can't you read? It stood only, in what?
Dr. Harris: in meats and drinks
Dr. Kinley: in meats and drinks
Dr. Harris: and divers washings
Dr. Kinley: In divers washings, many washings. It stood only in meats and drinks and divers washings.
Dr. Harris: and carnal ordinances,
Dr. Kinley: and carnal ordinances. Carnal means natural, physical, literal. It stood only in that. Everything they done was from a natural point, standpoint. The law stood only in that. Now, listen, you're dealing with the people without the Holy Ghost. You're dealing with a carnal people, people with a carnal mind from the high priest on down, carnal-minded folks, carnal-minded folks only, so therefore, you deal with them with carnal ordinances only. Now you watch out for your church. You just watch out for your church, but I am taking this down out of the Bible. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: imposed on them until the time of ref....
Dr. Kinley: Listen, these carnal ordinances... Well, what is a carnal ordinance? Name some of 'em. Some of us are, some of us are so, even so stupid until we don't even realize what a carnal ordinance is. Listen. Physical, literal water baptism is a carnal ordinance.
Student Body: Right.
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ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
Dr. Kinley: Now that high priest, he's got divers washings, many different kind of washings. The sacrifices was washed in physical, literal, natural water. Everything that they had was just as natural as it could be. And it was that way for a purpose. Are you following me down now? Stood only in divers, which means many, different kinds of washings and carnal ordinances. Listen, listen at the next word. Imposed on them. Them who? They're not imposed on you. They were not imposed on Abraham. They were not imposed on the ____ ____. They were not imposed on the Gentiles. You heard me, you're not blind. You see the point? It was for the time then present and was imposed on them through that dispensation. Stood only, just only, in that. Imposed on them how long?
Dr. Harris: until the time of reformation.
Dr. Kinley: Until the time of reformation or until, until God chose to, listen, listen at these words, reform Israel.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: 'Well, what do you say that for?' He give 'em a law of carnal ordinances imposed on them. Have you to know this now, watch what's written, ____ figure that's the reason why I kept coming back to this, because I want you to watch the train. Coming back to the Abrahamic dispensation, and do you remember I told you there was no carnal ordinances imposed on him. He didn't have no set, set routine there, Abraham didn't. Did he?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Get the point? Now then, it was imposed on them until the time of the reformation. Now here's where the reform comes in. Now, at Pentecost the Holy Ghost that they didn't have, the folks or the preachers, the apostles I'm talking about, they didn't have it. And He told them to tarry there in Jerusalem until you get it, and then when you get it, then you start right here at Jerusalem. 'Then where am I going?' Judea. Where to and for what purpose? To Samaria. Why Samaria? We haven't got that learned.
We get up here into the Bible, get to reading, 'da that He said to do that, ye shall be witnesses unto me in Judea, in Jerusalem, in Samaria, and to the utter most parts of the earth' and all this, that, and the other, but that don't say you know anything about it. You can read. You might just as well recite it by heart. And people think that when they get so they can recite a thing pretty much by heart, know something about chapters and verses, they're already to go somewhere and preach to somebody, but I think that you're badly mistaken. You get the point? And that's how they got Philip all messed up there. Got the personnel messed up, got the direction wrong. And they haven't got straightened out yet.
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ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
Now, begin at Jerusalem. Now, if you look in the fourth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Galatians you'll find this, listen at me now, that Jerusalem beneath is allegorical to Jerusalem above; that the carnal ordinances that you dealing with, every last one of 'em, they were typical of spiritual righteousness. It only typified it, therefore it was imposed on them until the thing that it typified come. You're reformed by the Holy Ghost.
Let me get this in, let me get this in, cause here is one of the great argumentations. This is the ontological argumentation, the presentation of the ontological argumentation. Do you know what I'm telling you is? Do you know what Metaphysics are? Divine Metaphysics? This is the presentation of the case as is. Now listen. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Get it now?
Now listen, we don't need no patching up by tradition. We don't need no ideas and opinions. And Bishop Short said it was a vision. Now you separate a vision from a hallucination. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) You get the point? Just separate that from a hallucination. Said, he said, 'vision.' And he didn't say imagination either, cause somebody's always sticking their finger in their ear, said, 'Oh, he sure is preaching now. He's talking about, I imagine I can see the streets of gold. I imagine I can see my mother after she's raised from the dead, and I see her entering on through the pearly gates of heaven.' Somebody says, 'Oh ra, oh ra, there goes somebody.' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now don't tell me nothing about it, I've done it. You don't have to give me no instructions about it, I've done that thing myself. Then when the service is over someone talking about, 'You sure are a wonderful preacher.' I thought so too. That's the truth about it. I had the gift of gab and a highly inflated imagination. (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Yes indeed. That's the way it was taught to me and that's why I stood up for it.
Now let me show you for, so, so I can get at it. Now this is the.., what you just read is under the Dispensation of the Law, not under the Abrahamic Dispensation. Now look, God said in Abraham's seed He would bless all the families of the earth. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now he'd have to say that that way because in this Abraham here, that promise was based on the conditions of regeneration back here. And it had to affect a whole entire population of the world, so therefore, it said Jew and Gentile, that's all there is in the earth. Get the point? You get it? Now, look and listen, now this law here that you're reading about.., the presentation of the ontological argumentation, the case as it is, get the point? The law here was added. The law here, I didn't say the promise. I'm saying what I mean, meaning what I say and placing the words. And I don't want 'em twisted up or confused with something, saying I said something that I didn't say. Now the law here, not the promise.., the promise was made because that in his seed, Abraham's seed, all of the families of the earth were to be blessed, which means the Jews and the Gentiles, which
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everything come from the loins of Adam and Eve back there. There's no man living, neither Jew nor Gentile, but what didn't come from the loins back there. So then God has to make that promise to Abraham based on that, while the seed was yet in his loins.
And Melchizedek, whom there is no pedigrees and genealogies of, nobody can trace their family tree back to that, for this reason: people like to boast about 'look at my folks and look at my pedigrees.' Look at the endless pedigrees and genealogies, they lead into a lotta confusion, whole lotta chaos down in here, the goody goods and better than I's, and the 'I'm above you and you're beneath me,' and all that kind of stuff. 'Look what my folks done.' As the children said one time when they was going to school, said, 'well, my people are rich.' 'What'd you say that for?' Say, 'Well, my Father owns a house.' They said, 'Well, my people...' Another child said, trying to give him some competition, said, 'My people are rich too.' Said, 'They are?' Said, 'Well, what do they got?' Said 'Well, my daddy owns a cow.' So we're all rich. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS)
So now I'm saying that to say this. It had to be include all in it. Now listen, now listen, the law.., this is a law that was given conclusive to Israel. It was contained in carnal ordinances only. It was a 430 years to the day after the promise was made. This is a dispensation of Melchizedek, and Melchizedek and Abraham. Faith. Abraham believed God and that faith that he had in God was accounted unto him for righteousness. No doing nothing. He didn't offer up but one sacrifice and he did a thorough job of that. God told him to offer it. And I could tell you lots of things about that.
An old man, well stricken in age, 85 years old. Even when Ishmael was conceived by Hagar he's 85 years old. If somebody 85 years old now, you almost got that without me saying anything. You almost got that one, didn't you? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) She comes around, a woman with little baby in her arms, says, 'That's his child.' 85 years old. 'That's his child.' Now you're going to have some trouble. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) You see what I mean? That's when Ishmael was born. Now that's bad, ain't it? Now here it comes up.., that's not the son through whom God's gonna bless all the seed. Now here it comes up: his wife, Sarah, she's been barren from birth. She never had had no children. Now Abraham, now he's 99 years old going into his 100th birthday when he has a son conceived by Sarah who was barren. She's 90 years old and he's 99 going into a hundred. It wasn't no wonder Sarah laughed when she... (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) You know what I mean? And it is comical for somebody that old that hasn't had no children. It's comical, it just don't happen like that. And it wouldn't have even happened in his case had it not been for God. That's what the trick is.
Student Body: Right.
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Dr. Kinley: Now he's a hundred years old when Isaac is born by a woman that never had no seed. Now, you have to almost look back here, clear, clear on back here where Dr. Roland was talking about, in order to see that.
Look on back here in Mother Earth. She's barren, destitute. She's amalgamated and conglomerated, chaos back there, without the seed of vegetation and so forth and so on. The earth... And had to wait till the waters was moved off of the face of the earth and the dry land appeared. And on the third day Mother Earth, that virgin who had been barren and destitute, God impregnated her with the seed of vegetation. Get that? That is what you going back to. That's Mother Earth impregnated with the seed of vegetation. This is the, this is the.., another kingdom. Human beings is another kingdom. Then three days from that God reaches right down in the virgin Mother Earth, no sin had been committed. She's a virgin, no other man had come from there, so she's got to be a virgin. And He takes Adam out of the dust of the earth. She's a virgin, God's his father, Mother Earth his mother. It's wonderful when you look at it.
Now, well now that's why these things happened up here to Abraham. That's why the things, whatever things that was, just anything that happened, that's why these things happened back there in the beginning, because as Dr. Roland said, now listen at his words. Now you listen at his words, which we often read on and pay no attention, these words are in the Bible. Listen, God declared the end from the beginning and said His purpose, Isaiah 46:9 and 10, would stand. All of His council would stand; He doesn't have any hinderance and obstructions.
And Bishop Short spoke about the devil. Why you, you can't create no good, real good, opponent for God; God had to make His own. You're no match even for the devil. You can't overcome the devil without, without the overcomer.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. You run around talking about 'I'm doing this and I'm doing that. I'm living a holy consecrated life unto the Lord. I'm living the Book.' Seeing and ____ and all that. You ain't doing nothing. You're just kidding yourself. You can't do that. Why don't you give God a little credit for it.
When He come into the world He said that all them back there from Adam on down, way on down through, past through Abraham.... I guess He knew what He was talking about, He set it up. Now, you can see Him about it. He said, 'There's none righteous, no.' 'Well, what about Abraham? Oh my goodness, look, look what he said there that Enoch was the seventh from Adam, he walked so perfectly, until God translated him without seeing death. And here he is saying there's none good.' And there's always somebody trying to talk about 'me and my righteousness, me and my religion.' All of our righteousness is filthy rags. All of it. Talking about the Pope and his holiness. All of our righteousness is filthy rags. There's none good. They tried to psycho the master. He was God incarnated in the physical body. They tried to psycho Him, said, 'Good master.' Said, 'Look
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here, what you call me good for? There's none good but God, so you, you, you psycho somebody else.' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) There's none good but God. Somebody said, 'Well, I thought you said awhile ago that everything that God created.., didn't He create the devil?' Yes, He created the devil. Said, 'Well, he ain't no good.' Yes he is, sure he's good. 'Good for what?' Good for the purpose which God created him for.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: What's the matter with you? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) God raised up pharaoh down there. He did it. What did He do that for? Might show His power, how that He had real good power, then overthrowed him to show His power, get some glory. See all them kinda things?
Well, somebody said, 'Now look here, don't you say God's done something ____, that He created him. Don't you say that?' Now, He said He did. Now if you don't believe it, I will read. You can believe He does whether you want to or not. Listen Wallace, by the very fact that God said what was good, it goes without saying that there's something bad. Doc, how did I do there, Doc? Did I do all right? Now listen, He had the authority to say what was good and what was bad, and you can't condemn Him for the decisions that He makes, because as the Apostle Paul said, 'Who hath known the mind of God that he might instruct Him?' He says, 'there's none good.' He wasn't overlooking nothing down there. He wasn't overlooking Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Enoch, he's translated, and Elijah, he's translated, without seeing death, him in the chariots of fire. And then when he got there.. Said, 'Well, I thought you said that he was ascended up into heaven in the chariot of fire. And I thought you said that Enoch, the seventh from Adam was so good, and he be wa.., now here he's setting down here talking to Nicodemus saying, no man ascended into heaven except, save the Son of Man which come down from heaven.' Listen here, now here's the part we didn't get, setting right there on the seat. You don't believe me. Would you mind reading that for me please? I got in an awful argument down here and got some of my people knocked in the mouth about it, but I just wanna let you know it's in the Book. There He was setting right down there talking to Nicodemus, setting down there, talking with him and He said to Nicodemus, 'No man ascended into heaven.' 'I thought you saved Enoch.' Right here. Now look, that's before the flood. That's in the Antediluvian Age. After the flood, Elijah ascended in chariots of fire. Now that, that's Enoch in the Antediluvian, Elijah in the Post, post means after, after the flood, in the antediluvian. And now here comes the Messiah in that Age, He's setting down there talking to Nicodemus. And Nicodemus... What'd He say to him?
Dr. Harris: And no man hath ascended up to heaven
Dr. Kinley: And now if Enoch was up there, he ain't seen a thing of him. Read, Dr. Harris.
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Dr. Harris: but he that came down from heaven
Dr. Kinley: um hum.
Dr. Harris: even the Son of Man which is in heaven.
Dr. Kinley: Don't you see that now? Now, there He is setting right there, sitting there, talking to Nicodemus. Ain't that where the conversation is? And in heaven. Now we with our carnal minds say, 'Well he ____ ____ white robes and He jumped on out of heaven, you oughta come on down here.' Quit arguing about it, man, you don't know nothing about what you're talking about. Carnal mind's a terrible plague.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Somebody always talking about, 'When the roll is called up yonder I'll be there.' You will. Don't worry. A carnal mind is terrible. Everybody will be there. Everybody was back there in pure spirit to start with and everybody will be there. Won't be no missing either. Nobody won't have so much important other business to take care of but what won't be there. When the roll is called. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Yes indeed.
You know the things I'm saying to you, since when you explain 'em, they are, they're comical. And it's hard for us to even perceive how big a fool we've been. You remember I told you when I first got on the floor, when I first got up here, you remember I told you that I used to be one of the greatest preachers you ever heard tell of? Reverend Nobody in Town could beat me. Yes indeed. I bursted. I used to wear suspenders and busted buttons off my pants. 'Yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack.' I had a wonderful imagination. One day when God revealed the thing to me sitting down at home, I done got put out of church then, and I felt real bad about it too. I didn't know it was for my benefit. And I thought, 'As smart as I was, then...' And that's the way I felt about it. And listen, I was classified as a bibliomaniac. Can't you see by that I'm not interested in you quoting scriptures and telling me chapters and verses and the other? I was called a walking Bible. Now one day I was sitting in my home and here it is God revealed the thing to me, and everything I thought was wrong. A wonderful preacher like that being Assistant Pastor in a Holiness Church too, the Church of God, a Bible belt church, until He showed me how wrong about everything I thought. I was wrong about the Godhead, wrong about the creation, wrong about everything, quoting the Bible, too. That's the way it is. Now, until you're born of God, you're incapable and not qualified, I didn't say you wasn't qualified to read the Bible, but you're not qualified to think in the spiritual realm. A carnal mind just simply does not penetrate a spiritual realm. The natural man, so says the apostle, he does not understand spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him, they're real stupid.
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Now, let me get back, I haven't lost the continuity of thought. Now, I told you about.., I'm picking up now, showing you, now I'm just connecting all I've been telling you, and that was the Spirit. Remember I told you I knew all about what was written in the Book, from Genesis to Revelation, classified as a Bibliomaniac, a walking Bible? Remember I told you nothing could prevent me from explaining His purpose and I'd inquire about Jesus at His coming? Remember? I haven't lost the continuity of thought at all, and I mean to tell you that you're just like me. That's all you have been accustomed to all of your life. And they're still saying 'Jesus is coming.' Well now, for your information, Jesus is not coming.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: So don't start quoting cause I told you I could get 'em where you quote, I know about it. Trying to prove to me that Jesus is coming cause you can't do that. No sir. The Bible does not teach that. In the first place Jesus is wrong, in the second place Christ is wrong. Both of 'em wrong. And what you should do is to conduct some kind of a research. I didn't say try to establish some kind of dogma and try to insist on somebody that you're right. You've been doing that all of your life. That was not His name. His name was not Jesus Christ. Look up and try to find out who Jesus Christ is. Justus Christus and where it come from.
Now, we wrote it in the book and sent the book all over the world. And when we wrote it in the book and sent it all over the world, to the Vatican, to the International Council of Churches, the heads of 'em, and it was discussed in New Delhi, India, and in Rome. They admitted in both places that it was wrong. And then wrote a book. Don't start, don't you start no stuff with me. Course now if you feel like you'd like to start some stuff I'll surrender the floor. I have surrendered it to atheists, agnostics, surrendered it to anybody. And listen, don't you be setting way back yonder near the, back there near the door someplace, 'Hey, I'm the champion of the world.' Come on up and get in the ring. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) I didn't say in the arena either. I said in the ring. That's not ____. ____ ____ and even your Bible tells you that. That's right, King James Version. Now these are things that we need to learn. God is a title, just like the President of the United States. Who is he? Everybody is ____ him. John F. Kennedy was, but he's not now, Lyndon B. Johnson is president now. Yahweh is God. That's His name. And as the Creator, having taken on shape and form... Don't start. I told you not to start nothing with me, And there's always somebody saying, 'Look here, you don't know who I am, you don't know me. I've been to Harvard. I been to Princeton. I got my credentials. I got my diploma. I know all about ancient history, medieval history, modern history. I know all about the prehistoric' and so forth and so on. I told you where this was the place. Ain't that right, Bishop?
Bishop Short: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: You said while you was up here, saw up here, you'd been around a few days.
Bishop Short: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Have you?
Bishop Short: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. You've been a couple places too, haven't you?
Bishop Short: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And you said you knew what was going on out there too, didn't you?
Bishop Short: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Alright. Now he knows that that is His name. Yahweh, that's God's name; and He don't like to be called out of His name, cautioned about it any more so than you like to be called out of your name.
Now after we wrote the book, Dr. Allen's got one there, after we wrote the book and sent it all over the world, now books is every which way is coming out, coming out of the Vatican and coming out of everyplace. ____ books and every other kinda thing, writing books and going back to the original name: Yahweh, Elohim, Yahshua the Messiah. And someone were wondering how it ever got, Jesus Christ ever got in our Books in the first place. Well we went back in the history of that too.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: And that's the reason why so many Jews, they are not gonna accept Jesus Christ, because they don't believe in God, that don't believe, that don't mean that they don't believe in the Son of God.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: That, that's a Hindu idol, sun god, Justus Christus. Look it up in history. Any good encyclopedia will tell you: Britannic, Britannica Encyclopedia, Peoples Encyclopedia, Columbia Encyclopedia, Lincoln Library, anything. And you look it up before you start arguing too.
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This is a school. Told you wasn't trying to build no church. We're after the truth down here. We don't care nothing about what the other fella is doing and what he believes and what he teaches. We're not interested in that. Somebody.., now we got invitations, always sending us invitations. The Buddhists is sending us invitations to come to the Buddhist meeting, the Bahas (Bahais?) are sending us invitations to come to the Baha (Bahai?) meeting, the Yogis are sending us invitations to come to that. Well, we just got a whole gang of invitations. Yes, we've had debates with the smartest boys for 33 years, 35 years, from coast to coast, from New York to L.A., and from Oregon to Georgia. Nobody's ever won no debate fooling with me. You'll get your head cut off before you know it, and somebody will have to push and let it fall off on the ground before he even knows it's cut off, cut to pieces. And all you can hope to do is get up here and make a monkey out of yourself.
Now, listen, I haven't lost the continuity of thought. I'm looking at the purpose of... first I'm looking at the Godhead, and then I'm looking at the creation. I'm looking at the thing from a sum total. Now Jonesy, if you don't start right, you can't end up right because God has declared the end from the beginning. And the ending gonna be just like the beginning. Now, listen, here's a academic thing. Now we're talking about natural things. We're talking about faith under the Abrahamic Dispensation. We're talking about the, the law. We told you, now listen, now from the very beginning, you remember I went back to Adam to show you, then I went into those ages to show you Enoch? And then I come on in to show you Elijah? Then I showed you that the difference between this dispensation here was 430 years before? You remember that I told you that the man that did the service in the tabernacle was carnal? The high priest. And I told you that the folks were. Isn't that right? I told you that all the ordinances was carnal. All of them was natural because everything's coming down that way. God, from the creation of the world, the invisible is understood by the visible.
And now, in order to educate them in spiritual things, you give it to them literal first, physical; and that was all imposed on them til, til the time to let them in on it: the revelation of God, which He kept hid within Himself until time. And Isaiah said it this way, said, 'Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for them that love Him.' And then somebody got up here, you seen it done right here, 'Oh that Paul said.' Paul was just only repeating what Isaiah said.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Paul is a man, he's just repeating what Isaiah said. And you remember I told you that it was imposed on them until the time of the reformation? Well, up until the time of the reformation it was hid in God until it was revealed. So back there, all back there, all of that that they could look at and see: man, everything else, sun, moon, stars, fish, sea, birds, and everything else, everything they could see, 'Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for them that love Him.' That's Isaiah. Now, but Paul puts one of them elastic buts, as Dr. Harris says. Now ands, buts,
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and fors: those are conjunctions that join together two complete thoughts. Isaiah said that, and Paul repeated it and then put a but in it. Said, 'but God has revealed 'em unto us,' so we know what He's prepared. 'How do you know about that?' Said, 'God revealed it.' 'How did He do that?' By His spirit.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Said but the natural or the carnal man, he don't understand. And old Rev is out there this morning with his fingers stuck back in his ear talking about, 'Look here, I'll baptize you in Jesus's name, and the Book says, Go ye therefore in all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, baptize them in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost,' just about out of breath. And, 'Now you can go on and follow Kinley if you want to, I'm following what Jesus said. I'm gonna baptize any candidate for baptism.' And you stop them right there, stop them somewheres. Now look, I'm not telling you about what, what, what might happen, this has already happened. You stop 'em right there and say, 'Look here, you just baptize 'em in the name of the Father. You say, that's what Jesus said.' Now what is the name of the Father? You can run up a tree right now. Baptizing in the name of the Son. What is the name of the Son? 'Jesus.' We wrestled with Jesus ____ out here. And in the name of the Holy Ghost. Said, 'now look, what is the name of the Holy Ghost? Now you just got through saying that. You say that's what He said.' Ain't that right Doctor? There he is with his robe on, he's already to pool down behind ____. ____ baptism. 'What are you gonna, what are you fixing to do?' 'Got to do what Jesus said. I'm fixing to baptize you in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Ghost.' 'Alright, let's, let's go.' Now, you go down the steps, now, listen, I've been there, I've did it according to the most particular, constructive, ritualistic performances, and I recited it precisely and exactly as it was. And I have baptized many folks, so you see I don't need no instructions on it. And I put them down in the water. This is what I said, they had me elected for that. I did the baptizing. This is what I said, 'In obedience to the command of our Lord and Savior.' Oh, I was careful about it too. 'Jesus Christ, I baptize this our beloved brother,' I had his name, 'Brother Robert Harris, in the name of the Father, God, and in the name of the Son, Jesus, and in the name of the Holy Ghost.' I didn't know what that was. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Padush. Get it? Now, I did that.
Now I.., you know why I mentioned that? You possibly have lost the continuity of thought. Well I haven't. Go back and read it, Dr. Harris and see if we lost the continuity of thought. The ninth chapter of Hebrews, for the first tabernacle stood only in meats and drinks and divers washing and carnal ordinances
Dr. Harris: which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices
Dr. Kinley: Now do you see that?
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Dr. Harris: that could not make him that did the service perfect.
Dr. Kinley: You're reading number nine now. That chapter. Now, listen, nobody knows something about some other chapters and verses. There's some more that goes along with this. That Hebrews you're reading, ain't it?
Dr. Harris: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Suppose you just read now the, the sixth chapter of Hebrews.
Dr. Harris: Therefore leaving the principles
Dr. Kinley: Wait a minute, Dr. Harris. You got, therefore leaving. Therefore is a conjunction. Is that right? Is that right, Bishop?
Bishop Short: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now you folks went to school and you so high academically trained. I told you this is the place for it. Therefore. Now that chapter is divided there. Now for you to get the, the, the, the subject, you have to go back in the fifth chapter. Paul is telling the Hebrews, or the Jews, in the fifth chapter, when the time come that they ought to be instructors and teachers, teaching the people the reality of the thing, he said, 'Ye have need that somebody teach you.' Why? Because, don't you see? All the natural was given to them back here, given to the Jews only, imposed on them until the Holy Ghost come, then when the Holy Ghost come, it taught them the meaning of these things. And you remember I told you that they were dull of hearing, carnal minded, hard hearted? They didn't understand. And Paul, now, he's telling them that these, all these carnal... Remember how careful I was to lay it out that all of these physical things was back there and everything in ordinances that Israel had was carnal. You remember that? Just got through reading it. Now he says, therefore, since all the covenants, the doctrines, and everything was given to the Jews, God give it to them to give to the Gentiles. When time come that they ought to have known and ought to have understood, when the blessing was supposed to be bestowed upon the Gentiles, the time come that they ought to have known, they have need of somebody teaching them. And they're still running around doing the natural things, just like they're doing all over Christendoom. Alright read on.
Dr. Harris: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ
Dr. Kinley: Now, therefore leaving the principles
Dr. Harris: of the doctrine of Christ,
Dr. Kinley: of the doctrine of Christ.
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Dr. Harris: let us go on
Dr. Kinley: Now, listen, you can't stay and leave off at the same time.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Either you is or you just ain't. How's that, how's my language? My language coming all right? Yes sir. You must is or you must ain't. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) ____ ____. You are where you was in the first place, if you haven't left. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, is that right?
Dr. Harris: not laying again
Dr. Kinley: not laying again
Dr. Harris: the foundation for repentance
Dr. Kinley: the foundation for repentance
Dr. Harris: from dead works
Dr. Kinley: From dead works.
Dr. Harris: and of
Dr. Kinley: Dead. You heard me, I said dead. Dead works. Say, 'What's dead?' All the carnal ordinances that was given to Israel: water baptism, foot washing, eating literal feasts of passovers. Somebody said, 'You don't understand. Jesus instituted that. Matthew 26:26.' I beg your pardon, He didn't. Well somebody said, 'You prove He didn't.' Since we have to go back to the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let's see what He said. Hold it there and we'll be right back, Doc. Matthew 5:17.
Reader: Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets
Dr. Kinley: Now He told the Jews don't you think, don't think that, don't you think that I come to destroy the law and the prophets. Read.
Reader: I am not come to destroy
Dr. Kinley: I am not come to destroy
Reader: but to fulfill.
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ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
Dr. Kinley: I have come to institute. What's a matter with you, can't you read? Said, 'He instituted it.' You get the point? You said He instituted water baptism and sent you out there to baptize. You said He instituted the Lord's Supper. You said He instituted foot washings. You said, 'I'm following in the footsteps of the Lord Jesus, you can go ahead on and follow Kinley.' I'm throwing it up to you now, what you said. And I've been all on that. Now, He said, now He wasn't instituting, said He was fulfilling, fulfilling that which was already instituted. Now, here's where it was instituted to the Jews. The carnal ordinances. Them that are dead. How'd they get killed? He fulfilled them and they're nailed to the cross out there. That put an end to it. Them carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of the reformation.
And listen, the devil has done played the thing so long. Now I'm telling you ____ ____ things. He done played this thing so long until now he can't afford to have his church ____. He's gonna keep right on baptizing somebody in the water. He's gonna keep right on eating suppers. And the hard shelled Baptist, that's what they call ____ primitive. I've got another order that fits nice, or the 'hard headed' Baptist. You said hard shelled or the primitive, I say the hard shelled or the primitive or the hard headed. Now, I was just as stiff and stubborn as anybody else, so I don't have nothing to do no boasting about. Now, look, He fulfilled all of these carnal ordinances that was under this dispensation, so that the promise should come upon the children of obedience preached on the Day of Pentecost when the restoration takes place. He said for the promise is unto you and unto your children and them that are afar off. ____ said, didn't He? Now who's afar off. The Gentiles, they had to come in, wasn't any of them there. We're far off. How far off? About 1523 years. Get the point? When it come now.., when it come to the Jews, the Jew first, I think you can see it better on this chart over here, Day of Pentecost, then seven years after that it come upon, the promise come upon the Gentiles. Peter down at Cornelius' house preaching the gospel. And while Peter was down there preaching, (BELL RINGS) Cornelius received the Holy Spirit; come upon the Gentiles.
I'll have you to know too, so don't get that all messed up, you think that was Cornelius' first____ation, that's his first knowledge of Him. No, no. The Book said so. Cornelius had been serving God for a long time. Yes indeed, and even built the Jews a synagogue, I ain't got time to talk about that, and had a talk with Jesus when He was here in the flesh. Went to Him, remember he's a centurion, went to Him and asked Him to, said, come from Caesarea, about a day's journey up to Jerusalem, and said to Him, said, 'Look here master, my servant lays home sick of...' Said, 'Now you just speak the word and my servant shall be healed.' He's a Gentile. 'No need to give me no invitation to come in your house, because I'm not fit, I'm not worthy. Just speak the word and my servant shall be healed.' And Jesus spoke the words and he looked at the sun, the sun dial. When he gets back home, he says to him after he gets back home, he says, ' yes,' he said, 'He's better.' Said, 'Well what time did this take place?' He said, 'When did he start getting better?' Said, just about told him what time it was, when he got.., ____ ____. Said, 'Yes, just about that time when He spoke the words.' (DR. KINLEY
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7) * 1966: SPIRITUAL COVENANT BY FAITH *
ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM,
NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE CARNAL LAW
LAUGHS) Just about that time when he got back home. And the master said this, said He hadn't found so great a faith, He didn't say offering up sacrifices, He didn't... Why there was people around there that offered up far more bullocks and turtledoves. They had a daily ministration. The high priest went in and out there in the Holy Place three times a day, the hour of prayer, and sacrifices was offered up every day punctual. But He hadn't found that great a faith in all, all, among all the Jews. Why? Cause the Gentiles is coming in by faith; and the Jews worked to the letter.
Somebody said, 'When, when Peter was preaching they got the Holy Ghost.' Yes, they did. Now you watch. And I've had the preachers on the carpet about it. Then after Peter got the Holy Ghost, Peter recommended that he be baptized too. Yes, Peter done that. Don't try to take it off of him, because he done that. And when he got through with his recommendations, he had the Holy Ghost seven years before, when he got through with him. Now what God was doing, was bringing them in according to the way He made the promise to Abraham, by faith, not by the works of the law. So God is bringing the Gentiles in, you can see right here, seven years ____ ____ Pentecost.
THE ORIGINAL RECORDING ENDED HERE.
Page 16
8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
by DR. H.C. KINLEY
recording received from Robert Fenti and Lamar Greed
Catalog#: 66 H
transcribed and proofread by the Green Bay, Wisconsin and Albuquerque, New Mexico Branch Schools
proofread by the International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
NOTE: This edition is a duplication (word for word, line for line, page for page) of the original transcript recently approved by the International Public Relations Committee, except for the following. Please note that the International Public Relations Committee and the original transcribers concurred with the following changes:
1. The date on the original transcript was 1974. Since there was no date on the original recording, this edition is using 1966 for the following reasons: a) Dr. Kinley refers to Bishop Pike currently being on the carpet. That occurred in 1966. b) He also states that he and the school are 35 years old. 1931 + 35 = 1966. c) Dr. Kinley uses God and Christ, rather than Yahweh, Elohim and Yahshua. 1966 is therefore being used.
2. Headers for each page are incorporated herein. The headers include a different title placed on the same session by a different recorder.
3. The last several sentences, which have been proofread and approved, at the end were added, showing the conclusion to the session. These were found on a different recording of the same session.
4. The transcribing and proofreading information above has been added.
Dr. Kinley: ----------------. First of all I want to say that, I know that you have enjoyed the two previous speakers, I know that you have. It is hard, sure-nuf hard to get up here and to express yourself within the comprehension and understanding of everybody. And one of the reasons for that is because we have been taught so many different things about the same thing. And we did not know how to go about proving one thing or the other. And the consequences were that a lot of doctrine come out of almost anything they said up here -- a lot of doctrines.
I don't know whether you noticed it or not, on the TV tonight Bishop Pike was on there. And he is up before the.., uh, he's on the carpet, (let's put it like that) for erroneous teachings and what-not. They got him on, on trial, they bringing him up before the Bishop, about the Birth and so forth and so on, and his teaching contrary to what the Church of England taught. I don't know whether you noticed it or not, but it was on there. Now I have here the little piece of paper here that's cut out of the "Los Angeles Examiner." That Dr.., uh, the "Los Angeles Times," pardon me for the error, "Los Angeles Times." It is dated 10/26 I believe it is. Uh, I wanna tell you before I tell you anything about this. Now don't you get excited I'm not gone keep you over time. Now let your temperature go down. But I do want to tell you about this, see I wanna tell you about it. I'd like for Dr. Harris to get up here and read it, and you listen while he read.
Dr. Harris: "Miner's will call for proof of human soul." About 18 days will be set aside next year and this is to prove scientifically the existence of the human soul. To the organization which can do this, and at least eight will try, the prize is more than two hundred thousand dollars [$200,000].
The money was left by James Kid, an Arizonian miner, who died in 1951. Kid's will says his estate will go to any person or group furnishing some signs of proof of the soul of the human body which leaves at death. Attorneys believe the money also could be awarded to anyone who is merely researching the existence of souls. Superior Court Judge, Robert L. Myra said a hearing, expected to last eight days, is to begin next March the 6th. Kid, a bachelor, says in his will, he has no heirs.
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
Seeking to qualify for the money are: The California Parapsychology Foundation Incorporated, The Arizona Board of Regents, The Arizona Foundation for Neurology and Psychiatry, Parapsychology Foundation Incorporated, The University of Life's Church, Inc., Neurological Sciences Foundation, Physical Research Foundation Incorporated, and The Aquarium Foundation.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you very much. Now you see that? Now this.., after all these many years, see after all these many years, why then they're still not too sure about it. Now Bishop Short said, (I let him read that), and he said for me to give that back to him, and he is going to write them folks.
Now, I said all that -- I wanted you to know all that, you see, so that you could see this one thing about this teaching. There is no way on earth to prove it other than the way that we go about it. ________. You either do it this way or else! You see what I mean? Now nobody can't come along and boast two hundred thousand dollars, and you see that's from 1951 down to this present time, see to try to find somebody up under all these smart folks, and Institutions,_you see, and these Church organizations, Roman Catholics, and Protestants and what have you, Jews and everything else, you understand. And then they up there all this time and nobody's able to prove nothing about it. You see the point now that I'm talking about? That don't make sense -- did it? Now the reason why they can't prove it is because see, they don't know how to go about to do it. See, you get it now? And Bishop Pike is on trial you understand, because the things that he says is out of harmony with what the teaching was of the Anglican Church. Get the point? Contrary to what the rest of 'em believed and taught.
Now here I come, you see, now I'm against the whole entire thing. Get the point, see? In other words I have challenged the world. And I say this to you.., and now some of you know this because you have been around me long enough to know - I didn't say need it, I said, know it. I'm not talking about having no faith in it either! See I'm talking about a, I'm talking about a profound knowledge too know, see, that it's this way or none at all, see. Isn't anybody on earth can whip this organization. That's right -- living or dead. Now I didn't say that to be boasting, I just said it because it's so! How's that, how'd I do that time? See, you get the point?
Now, I tried my best to tell these folks what my mission was. And I don't think I've done to good a job, so I'll try one more time, see. I was sent in this closing of this age, just like Noah was sent in the closing of the antediluvian. You understand?
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
And just like Messiah was sent there in the closing of that one. Then the age that's closing now, I was sent, see. Now here's my job, now here is my job, and I want you to understand it. My job is NOT DISAGREEING with what Moses and them have said back here, you see, what Messiah and them have done, you understand and what John on the Isle of Patmos is done -- see, disagreeing with 'em. Now this is what my job is. My job is taking all that Moses and John and everybody else in between there said and done and and proving it is so. Now that's what my job is! You see? That's what, that's that's what I come for. Get it? That's the way it is. Now listen, let me tell you something. It's not gone do anybody any good. Now those that uh.., Roger, I'm 35 years old. You understand? And nobody from nowhere at no time during this 35 years (and I told you I've been in the colleges, academies, and everywhere else) you understand -- believe it or not! You see? I made a statement Sunday like this: I said "I have been everywhere, seen everybody, know everything, know everybody, been every place, heaven, earth, hell and every where else." You understand? You understand? Now that might have sounded, you know, like that wasn't so, but it is! Somebody said, "Well have you been over to Jerusalem or have you been over yonder and so forth and so on?" No, not in bodily presence, but I've been there. See what I'm talking about? No this body has never been there you understand, in bodily presence, but I been there! There isn't anywhere I haven't been - I been to heaven! Somebody's always saying, "Show me somebody that come from heaven, you understand. Ain't nobody never been to heaven and got back to tell nobody nothing." I did, see -- you can ask me. See I wouldn't have much trouble convincing somebody that I been to hell. You see what I'm talking about? -----------------, see they won't argue with that, but when you come to talking about being in heaven ---------------- well now he done, he got clear out'a (outta?) bounds there. See the point. Now here's a fellow that is spoken of in your Bible Here's the fellow that said that he knew a fellow about 14 years ago, (you understand), that's laying right down on the ground -- not standing up but laying down on the ground, and was on into the 3rd heaven. You understand, get the point? Now he said he knew that fellow. So I say to you, I know a fellow..
Now let me see if I can speak in this type of tongue to you. See, now you have to die to go to heaven. Well now I don't mean being hauled off out there to the cemetery, now I don't mean that. I mean that the depraved nature and disposition, the carnal function, see of a carnal mind, it has to be transformed, it has to be changed, it has to be elevated by the Holy Spirit itself to another plain of thinking, another state of consciousness where you don't think on this plane here, you think on a heavenly plane. You understand, you get it, you get the point? Now you
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
don't go to the cemetery to do that! You can't think nothing in the cemetery! Get the point? So now you have to think like that before you go to the cemetery! See, get the point? Now that means this, that you have to start to thinking now! You see, see, you understand? Cause you can't think dead like you're talking about and going to the cemetery, and yet you have to die. You get the point? Now I said that to say this: Though your physical body be on earth and you're walking around on earth, (and don't you start no argument with me, see), though your physical body be walking around here on earth -- your state of consciousness while you're walking around on earth has either got to be dead.. And in that state of death.., if you looked in Revelations you'll find that death and the grave.., and this body that you have is the grave in which you are in. If you are alive or been transformed or changed while you're walking around in this body, then you are already in heaven. Now you want some proof for that don't you? You want some Bible proof! You see, Colossians, Colossians. Now that's the reason why I tell you, you understand? I have been there! In fact of the matter I live there -- I don't live here! You understand? You get it? Now look! The apostle is telling you this: "That he was crucified with Christ." I'm trying to tell you in terms so you can check it up in your Book. "Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the life which I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me." Listen, I want you to read the 3rd chapter of Colossians, and I want you to begin with the 15th verse. It's no wonder people don't understand this Bible. See with you and your carnal mind, you don't know nothing about what these apostles are talking about. And you're bound to have all this friction, and all that Bishop Short, uh, Bishop Pike and Bishop this, and Bishop that, and Bishop the other -- you're bound to have all this friction! See? You don't have no way to prove nothing. You understand what I'm talking about? Alright read.
Reader: And let the peace of God ...
Dr. Kinley: 3rd chapter of Colossians and verse one.
Reader: If you then be risen with Christ...
Dr. Kinley: Now if, if you're crucified with Him, see and you are buried with Him -- that's what he's got in the 2nd chapter. See and remember I told you always get these subjects and predicates together. See this such thing of these chapters and verses being divided up here, not that's, that's what's made a mess out of a lot of people. You see because, now the subject may be up here in the 2nd chapter, and the predicate way down here somewhere 15, 20 verses deep in the 3rd chapter. Now in the 2nd chapter he's showing you how that ya, how you, uh, crucified.., oh well I'll put it this way. How you're circumcised without hands. And right in
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
that, you was buried with Him by baptism into His death. Listen Wallace! And right in that you are raised with the operation of the spirit! Now he hasn't put no hands on nobody. You got him circumcised, you got him buried, and you got him resurrected there. You understand, you get it?
Now here he is.., I'm skipping, because I said I didn't want to keep you here, see. Now here's the 3rd chapter, now you listen at it. Read the 3rd chapter -- begin with the First verse all over again.
Reader: If you then be risen with Christ...
Dr. Kinley: Now if ye,if,if! If ye then be risen.. All right read.
Reader: seek those things which are above. ..
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God...
Dr. Kinley: Now if ye be risen, don't be seeking the earthly thing or the materialistic thing. Listen now, because for this reason they only point to the spiritual. See you take a natural to see a spiritual. That's reason why God give them a Law in a natural sense to lead them to the spiritual. That's reason why Paul is saying "The invisible thing of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the natural things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead." You are made like you are, a man walking around that you can look at, see put your hands on, feel and touch. You understand, you understand? You're made like that to reflect the construction of a spiritual embodiment. That is to say, you're made in the likeness and image of Elohim, see. That's why you are like you are. "If ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above.." Now you been in the literal or the natural all your life, you was born in that. Get the point? "Seek those things which are above as Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." Is that what you just read?
Reader: um hum
Dr. Kinley: All right read on.
Reader: set your affections on things above...
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: not on things on the earth...
Dr. Kinley: and not on materialistic things. All right read.
Reader: for ye are dead...
Page 5
8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
Dr. Kinley: Now here's why! And, but, if and for are conjunctions that join together two complete thoughts! So you are dead! You're... (you understand), from a literal, physical, natural point -- you're dead!! Now you wouldn't write a letter to a dead man, he couldn't read it. Would you? That ------ got better sense than that, he ain't that big a fool. What he is talking about is this. The man is dead to the things of this world or to this materialistic realm. You see? All right read.
Reader: and your life is hid...
Dr. Kinley: Now you're dead, (and listen now), and your life!
Reader: is hid with Christ in God...
Dr. Kinley: See, now you say I'm alive, you say I'm walking around! My life is hid with Christ in God. Now here comes that idiot! Says, "Listen here! If you're a Christian I wanna see you live the life!" Well listen, can't you see you have to get on up from here! Come on up here where I am, see. What he means by that, is he don't wanna see you take a drink of whiskey. See, he _ don't wanna see you chew no tobacco! You understand? You see what I'm talking about? Now he thought doing away with your habits, he calls that cleaning up! He calls that getting sanctified and holy! You understand? That's what he calls it, You see what I'm talking about? Well he don't know nothing about it. You see? Say, I eat what I please, drink what I please -- that is none of your business! And I don't meddle with what you eat and drink, and the reason why I don't, because it is none of my business. And so don't you come around talking about you wanna see me, see. I eat what I want, drink what I wanna drink. You understand? And listen, I go where I please, come back when I get ready. Say, "O Lord, said there's a man he just come out of that place over there! Don't you know that's the worse place in the world!" You understand? Said, "I just seen him come out!" Well listen, where do you think, where you think a man of God is sent to? He didn't.., uh Messiah said, "He didn't come to call the Christians or the righteous," (you understand) He come to call the sinners!" You got to go where the sinners are! You get the point? Now you're belly-aching cause I just come out of a place where you said the sinners were. You see what I mean? Tel.., tell me you wanna see me live the life. See, and you're looking at me around down here. Well now, somebody said, "Well now listen, didn't James say?.." You understand, alway saying, "Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this, is to visit the widows, and the orphans and their afflictions and to keep himself unspotted from the world. Didn't he say that?" Yes he did say that, but you don't know what he's talking about. You see? Now this is what they thought, this is what they thought about that, because they live on
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
this earth plane. You understand? Some woman died or some man died out yonder, (you understand), and they hauled him off to the cemetery. And this is what they think James was talking about, see and before they got him in the cemetery good, maybe that same week. You just got through telling you're the pastor. Said what James said, "Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this, is to visit the widows.." Now here you said, telling me to go over there and visit that woman because she's a widow now. You see? Said "I see his car sattin' out there!" Said "That man ain't cold good." You understand? "I bet you he was running her before her husband died!" That's right. You understand? Peeping out from there behind.., Said "Look child I tell you," (Peeping out the _ car), says "Well I seen him coming out from there." He said that's what, that's what, that's what James said, "Pure and undefiled.." See now if you do what you said that James said for you to do, you're accused! See, "Visit the widows and the orphans in their affliction, and keep himself unspotted from the world." You see what I'm talking about? Now when you go to deal with that, (you understand), they, they're over here talking about "I wanna see you live a Christian life." Just like they looking at what you eat and drink and meddling in your business. You understand? Now this is not a dietary regime. And what you see often with your physical eye, (you understand), you can't always count on it. You understand what I'm talking about? But what you see with your eyes, I'm not talking about these things, I mean the eye, the eyes of your understanding, (you understand), you can count on that. You see what I mean? You see what I mean?
Now if you be dead, if ye be risen with Christ seek those thing which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. For ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. Read.
Reader: when Christ who is our life shall appear...
Dr. Kinley: Now when Christ, when Christ who is our life.. All right.
Reader: shall appear...
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: then shall ye also appear with Him in glory...
Dr. Kinley: See I, I'll be right along with Him! See you would look at me when I'm around here -- I don't live here! You see, understand, I live on another plane -- the real me. You understand what I'm talking about? I'm dead and my life is hid with Christ in God. Now if you wanna see me.., when you do see me (you understand), it's just to late! You understand what I mean? Cause when He
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8) 1966: YOU HAVE TO DIE TO GO TO HEAVEN
(also called: BISHOP PIKE. SATAN IS A LIAR)
appears.. Somebody's always talking about "The loving appearance or the blessed appearance.." But when He appears, He won't be coming back after me either! You understand? No, no, I'll be right with Him when He appear. You see, do you see what I mean? I'll be right with Him and He'll _ be right with me. You understand what I'm talking about? You see, you understand now? That's the reason why I said, "I don't live on this plane I live in another state." you understand? That's the reason why I can tell you what's there. You understand? You see what I mean? You wanna know, ask me. How's that? I seen (you understand). Do you, do you really understand what I'm talking about? I seen, see. Now look, I'll say this and we'll go home.
Enoch was translated before the flood. Elijah was translated after the flood, (understand). And you (now I mean without seeing death) Enoch was translated without seeing death, see. Elijah was translated without seeing death. And you are translated in this dispensation without seeing death. Get it? Now death reigned from Adam to Moses over everybody, Enoch, everybody, Elijah too. You understand? But those men had the Holy Ghost. You understand, Enoch and Elijah them had the Holy Ghost. Now that's what translated them, (you understand) without seeing death. Now here you are and the Holy Spirit is been poured out on you, (you understand) while you're walking around, so then you should have been translated into the Kingdom of God without seeing death. Your inner-self or your carnal self, dead! You see, die daily there. Make sure that that fellow is dead. See don't let Bishop Short get up in the morning... [Tape Ends]
(NOTE: A DIFFERENT TAPE RECORDING OF THE SAME CLASS CONTINUES ON WITH THE FOLLOWING, GIVING THE CONCLUSION TO THE CLASS.)
You see. He's dead. Better keep him murdered by all means. Whatever he said, Bishop Short did it; you see what I mean, then you got trouble on your hands. Get what I'm talking about? Let's go home. Wonderful, ain't it.
Page 8
9) SEPTEMBER, 1966: JUDGEMENT AND RESURRECTION NOW
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Los Angeles, California
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross
transferred to audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
One 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog #: 66.09
transcribed by Felecia Carrington
first proofreading: Rodney Suttles
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. indicates an inaudible word or syllable.
S. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber.
SCRIPTURE READING: Revelation 20
Dr. Kinley: Greetings in the bonds of peace. First of all I would like to say that I'm indeed happy and glad to be back with you again. After the absence of four months and one day. Mary and me visited the people of Yahweh back in the State of Ohio. I would like to say that while they're doing along fine, and doing well they have their oppositions their trials and their tribulations and troubles, things of such, just like you do. I sat there and thought, I thought about what John said on the Isle of Patmos about the adversary or the devil. He said that, the saint's would be overcome. And then I thought too I don't mean that they'll be overcome but they would have their problems, their trials and their tribulations, and what not. And the Messiah said Himself in the 24th chapter of Matthew, 21st chapter of Luke and the 13th chapter of Mark that many false prophets, and false teachers, and false messiahs would go out and deceive many, not a few but many. And as we look around over the world. I'm very sad to say that we see that being fulfilled,
Student Body: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: back in the State of Ohio and all over the world. There's no difference, its no difference at all. The world at this present time is groping in stupidity, ignorance, and darkness. It is prophetic for it to be that way. And it just must be. That's all there is to it. It just must be. Yet and still, there is some people all over the world that want to know something about the truth, want to know the reality. And of course that's what the school is established for, in Ohio and everywhere else. And the wrestle that they had in Ohio is hard. The dean there said to me, said, 'well doc,'said, 'many times I felt like just writing you a letter, telling you that maybe somebody else would handle it better than I could.' I said, 'well if you had wrote that letter, I would have wrote you right back and told you that just fight on, cause can't nobody handle it any better than the Holy Ghost. And that's what you're supposed to have.' That's what I've told him. So I said this to him, I tried to inspire and encourage him. And he thanked me very much. And with all of the setbacks that they've had, they are still progressing in every way. They are sticking together pretty good there, probably more than what a person would see. So now that's.., Springfield is the headquarters you might say of the entire state of Ohio. So then it is from there that they go out to Columbus and to Middletown and Dayton, and elsewhere in the State of Ohio. So some places where they had kinda let down they revived and they're going along fine when I left.
Then I left Springfield and went to Birmingham, Alabama, Dr. Jones. And I'm happy and glad to report that he is doing well there, doing just fine, and I spoke there a couple of times. And I didn't see fit to caution him about but just one thing in particular, and outside of that why things was going along fine. And that was this: which everybody hates to go up against and it is a part of the program of the devil to separate races, nations and things of that kind, knowing that down in Alabama and Arkansas, as we might like to describe as the deep south, why they're a little touchy. You know what I mean? That thing has grown among them for many, many years. I cautioned Dr. Jones that, to just forget all about it. This is not a civil rights movement this is a divine right, and there's nobody that can obstruct or hinder you, so far as the divine right is concerned but for Satan himself. So go right on into it, and let the folks know that everybody, this gospel is to be preached to all nations and we are living now in the final conclusion of this age. And it behooves everybody, makes no difference who you are and where you come from, and just forget about the race and the nationality, just forget about that, all that, just blow it on out of your mind and preached the gospel to every creature; doesn't make any difference about where you are, down south or up north or out west or anywhere, just preach the gospel.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: And if you do that, then you can just rest assured, that you are going to get in trouble. So be prepared for that. Don't think you're gonna go through here without some obstructions and some opposition, but you must be prepared for it. So I cautioned him very strictly about that and.., one of the reasons, things that brought it to my attention was right to next door to where he lives was a white guy. And he had had some meeting in his home, and he had not extended them an invitation to come over and be in the meeting. And so that brought it vividly to my attention, and I said, 'No, we are not gonna have nothing like that. You have
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your, read your aims and objectives here in the school, you read them since I've been here, Sunday night and you say that in every meeting, so then let's don't, let's don't tolerate, let's don't advocate by our actions nothing of that sort, invite everybody.' We just should him invite Governor Wallace in too. ____ ____ Wallace setting up in this school, ____ that could be. It's as much intended for him as it is for everybody else. And as you know that, that is what I have told you ever since you have been knowing me. And we don't intend to have in this school nobody that has any racial prejudice or anything like that on the official board of this school. We don't want 'em on there. And the reason why we don't want 'em on there is because the gospel is to be preached to every creature. That's a universal thing. As the scripture said, the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and all nations shall flow into it. Again, it says there, the 21st chapter of Luke, 24th chapter of Mark, which we just read right on passed it and don't pay no attention to it. It says why, He'd sit upon the throne of His glory and all nations would be before Him. And He would judge all nations according to their works. And now if the kingdom of the devil is universal. What do you think about the Kingdom of God? So then we have to be very careful about those things.
Now there's one or two other things I wanna mention to you about, that is Little Rock Arkansas. I think you should have some report on that. I went there. Dr. Dewey McCoy was and of course he hasn't got just actually straightened out there to do anything much. He arrived in Little Rock sometime after Dr. Jones went to Alabama. We got in there on Thursday, and he was living with his sister and brother-in-law at the time. And we stayed in the motel, my Brother Bennie and I were together. They wouldn't let me go by myself, and so they sent him along with me to come as far as Little Rock, and when I came here why he went on back home. But any how on Friday after we arrived there Thursday, Dr. Mccoy moved into a house I called it in emergency. And he couldn't get all of his furniture in there. And so my brother and I, we tried to help him get a pathway through, and unwrap the bed and first one thing and another, and we finally got it together. And it's kinda out in the country, so they didn't use natural gas out there, they had butane. So they shut off the gas and had to change the burners on the stove. So then that was on Friday. Saturday we went around there and tried to get things together so that they can continue on. And Dr. Mccoy works on the base, the military base. And he didn't want to lose any time there, so that left his wife, and my brother, and I to try and do the best we could to straighten out things. Of course I called myself helping. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) So the thought that I wanted to express to you there is on a Sunday we went to work and we had the meeting there, that was the first meeting that we had there. Well we had one on Friday night, I'm getting ahead of myself. And he had brought some eight or ten people there all together Friday night ____ ____. So I would say that meeting was precious. Then on Sunday, why we didn't have so many, because the people that were in favor of the meeting and those that were to help him, so forth and so on, they hadn't come to the knowledge of how important it is for them to be here together. So some of 'em had other commitments, and so.., you know how that is, and so we went on from there. Well, I preached hard ____ ____. This gas business thing as I told you about had been shut off and they, the man turned it back on and he forgot to turn it on in the hot water tank. And so I contracted my
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heavy cold there, just before my departure from Little Rock. So that's how I happen to be sick when I did arrive, and I was sick too, and had very hard time. But all in all, out of all the places we went. I would say they are progressing, getting along fine.
Now I wanna talk about you. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) I just give the report. ____ the boys will preach there, I'll leave the preaching to them. Now your conduct and you behavior, though I was absent in body, I was present in spirit. And I wanna let you know that I knew at all times what was going on here. Who preached and what they preached about, and so forth and so on. Your attendance and everything. I knew about it all the time. So I do want to commend you on sticking together and persevering during my absence, because I did realize and I didn't do no worrying about it either. I never worried one bit about it. No indeed, no worrying at all. Why? Because I knew that the brethren that was here were fully capable and qualified to tell you the truth. And they would tell you at any expense even if it cost them their life, they would tell you the truth. And so I just didn't do any worrying about it at all. Of course you always have anywhere here, Ohio, Birmingham, Little Rock and other places some stragglers that drop in, then they drop out, then the unconcerned and so forth and so on. We're gonna always have that ____. So all and all why I'm happy and glad to be back with you and to talk with you about the things that pertain to the Kingdom of Yahweh. Now for a few minutes I'd like to talk with you about the scripture lesson you just read, just for a few minutes. One of the things that keeps that 20th chapter of Revelations ever before me is, when I had the vision and revelation, I saw that in the vision. I saw it just like it was, and understood it. Now, so, with me, I'd just like to tell you in terms that you can understand. There's no need to tell you something that you can't understand, leave the thing half cocked or something like that. Now this judgement that we're talking about, this final judgement that we're talking about, I want to tell you that you are already in it.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: I want to tell you that this is the judgement, and we have been in it for quite some time. Now I know there's somebody jump up and say, 'well, I don't believe that.' Well it don't make no difference whether you believe it or not. It's so anyhow.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: As Paul said, what if some don't believe it, does that make the Word of God of no effect? Yes, indeed. Then another thing about this whole thing. Let me tell you this real softly. Let me tell you this real softly, and I hope it thunders against your conscience to such an extent that it will awaken you, whether you accept as of now or reject that which is being taught here, in this school, stay down there boy, you're gonna have to face it down here anyhow. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to accept it. As we sometimes say, we don't wanna cram nothing down nobody's throat as of now, but I am telling you it will be crammed down your throat. Like or don't like. Believe or disbelieve. Now you think that thing over, think it over seriously. It's going to happen, and it's
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happening now. Now one of the things that made me think to say that to you is this: there is a lot of doctrines that are being taught that to futurtively or actify that the Messiah will sit upon the throne of His Father gathering, then all nations will be gathered before Him, and that He will separate the wheat from the chaff. That's in many of the doctrines, including the Roman Catholics, is called the millennium. Now the millennium comes up after the rapture. Or the rapture now what we mean by the rapture is this: that's yet to come, the rapture. And when the rapture comes, why then all of these that are living walking around here now, they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but they will not prevent those which are asleep, the righteous dead which are asleep in the graves and cemeteries. And that, now all of this is future. It hasn't come to pass as yet, according to their preaching. They'll be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and then that's called the rapture. But the rest of the dead, that's the first resurrection, but the rest of the dead, they didn't live again until after the thousand years were expired. Now I'm down in the 20th chapter of Revelations. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was expired. And then He shows up again, the Messiah, and that's the general and the final judgement. When all that are in the graves, the wicked, which is the rest of the dead, why then they will be gathered before His throne and He will judge them. Now that is called the second resurrection. But now if you'll notice when we read here out of Revelations. Would you open your Bible for ____ and read it down there, I want this read about.., I think it's the fifth and sixth verses.
Dr. Harris: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen, but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: This is the first resurrection.
Dr. Kinley: Now this is the first resurrection. Read.
Dr. Harris: Blessed and holy is he.
Dr. Kinley: Blessed and holy is he read
Dr. Harris: that hath part in the first resurrection.
Dr. Kinley: that has part in the first resurrection. Read
Dr. Harris: on such
Dr. Kinley: on such
Dr. Harris: the second death has no power.
Dr. Kinley: Now it didn't say the second resurrection, it says second death. Now they're saying second resurrection, it's saying second death. Now let me explain that real quick so you can see through it. The Messiah did not say that I am the Resurrections,
Student Body: Right.
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Dr. Kinley: which means: He didn't say I'm the first resurrection and the second resurrection. He didn't say that. He said, I am the res.., 11th chapter of Saint John, I am the Resurrection. I'm the Life. I am.., not the truths, but the Truth. And He didn't say, I am the Ways and Means Committee. No not that. I am The Way. Now He'd have to be a whole lot of ways, have to be a whole lotta truths. He'd have to be at least two resurrections and all, in order the way the people have got it. Now this confusion is all over the face of the earth. Now I want to point out. I want to pinpoint it too. I want you to look now at the 27th chapter of Matthew and the 51st and 2nd verse. Now I'm talking about the first resurrection. I want you to see what it's all about. And I want you to see how that the world with their carnal minds, miscomprehensions, understanding, and then I want to say about this rest of the dead. Now I'll be done in a few minutes, so don't get excited. And let some of the brethren get up here and preach, but I do wanna get this thing before you. And the reason why I want to get it before you, is because we want you to be resurrected now. Don't be depending on something way down yonder. And this thing of dying and going to the cemetery, or sprouting wings and flying off somewhere. We want you to know every bit of that is come from a carnal mind. And the Christendoom, the world over has failed to see it.
And it's... another thing I wanna mention here, I've been thinking about it even when I went to Ohio and around the journey that I made. And that is this: God said that, said, 'I will,' said He was gonna do this, destroy the understanding of the prudent or the wise, and bring to nought their understanding of the prudent. Said He was gonna do that. Now He has done that. Now that's what the trouble is right now. Now let me show that.
And before you read let me show this to you. I don't see this chart up over here. This one right over here. I want you to look at it, all of you look. If you seen it before, look at it again. You know how dogmatic I am about a thing. Now you see all of this natural, even the physical creation and everything, all of the natural, even the physical body, the natural body in which He was manifested. All of these carnal ordinances, first tabernacle stood only in that. They didn't have no ordinances at all, except carnal ordinance. Now when we say carnal we mean natural, we mean physical, we mean literal. Things you did with your hands, and things you tasted with your mouth, things that you ate and digested, and assimilated, and all of those various different kinda things. All those ordinances. Now with Children of Israel.., they are now nailed to the cross. Now listen, and then when you come out over on this side over here... Now that messed up the party. They haven't seen no more of Him since. Haven't seen Him, not a thing of Him since. Now that's the time and the age in which you're living right now. And that's what we're talking to you about now. And that's what the people are saying about the first resurrection and the second resurrection. They are looking at it in a literal since. They're looking at the cemetery or the tombstone ____ out someplace, and then they're gonna go in there and dig up everybody in there. And then they're gonna be raised up the righteous dead. And the wicked dead, they're all out there together, and these dead people or these live people that's walking around here dead, like mishaps. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Then they'll all be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. Now that's what's being preached and taught as of now. And it's universal. Now the real truth about it is
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hid from the wise and the prudent and it's revealed unto babes. And what they're talking about futuritively is as of now. You're being resurrected now. The first resurrection, you remember that the Apostle Paul had some trouble with Alexander there, down there. He withstood the Apostle Paul, saying that the resurrection was already passed. When it's going on now.
Now you must be resurrected psychologically and spiritually sitting in your seat right where you are. Now that's what they call a Christian. You got in the church there and all that kinda ignorance and all. You're giving the preacher your hand and you're on your way to heaven, all that kinda thing. And that's the way the thing is taught. Well, every bit of it is wrong. And now it's all universal, it's everywhere, all over the Christian world. They do not understand. And now for you to get some real food, you're going to have to come to the place where it's being taught. Now there's no need to be in.., I might say hardheaded about it. You're not gonna get some food down there in the hog pen, you've got to come up here where the sheep are being fed. Do you understand it clearly now?
There's no need of you opposing. I've already done made that statement cause you're gonna have to come to it anyhow. Like or no like. Believe or no believe. It's not gonna do you no good. Although we do know that there are going to be many of people lost. Many of them lost. And then the suffering and all the eternal damnation. It's almost inconceivable to mortal consciousness. As the Messiah said there in the 24th chapter of Matthew, there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, you're talking about a sorrow. Somebody's all upset because, 'I lost my mother.' Somebody's all upset because, 'I lost my father.' That's crying and that's.., then you're tore all to pieces, just tore into spasm fits, and the undertakers even have to hold 'em, and this smelling salts and all. But look, let me tell you something. This thing that we are talking about is far more grievous than anything that's ever happened to you. In being lost. Now that, you don't say that you're being lost. As Peter put it, he said this, are you ready to.., real quick, 'God is not slack concerning His promise.' That's His end of the bargain. 'But is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' Now that's God part. Now let me pinpoint that too.
I told you that you were already in the judgement; and what is going on as of now, is the long suffering of God. As John said in Revelations, He gave space or time for you to repent. In the 24th chapter of Matthew he said again that, about that space of time that was given for you to repent, and that unfaithful servant... When it looked like that He prolonged or delayed His coming. And he begin to smite. And as the people are standing around looking up in the sky, and talking about He delayed His coming, they don't see that He is a quickening spirit. They don't understand. That he and you are one. They don't understand that. They miss out on that like they do everything else. They don't see. Now when the cover is taken off the thing, when the cover is taken off ____ ____ ____. Then you will see that what I have told you is right. Let's say the Revelation of the Messiah, to make myself real clean and clear, those who believe according to the scriptures, they will be instantaneously changed from a mortal to an immortal and it will be done by that spirit that's within 'em, within you.
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Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: So if the spirit is not within you, then you're a hopeless case. You will have something to weep and to wail and to moan about. Now God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So now in this 20th chapter of Revelations I want you to consider this as of now, not wait until way down yonder somewhere, for it to be called the rapture. I wanna make myself real clear by the rapture, will be going on and the dead people out there in the cemetery, they'll be.., and the righteous, they'll be caught up with the righteous living and meet the Messiah in the air, but the rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. Now I'm coming down to my text now. See how I'm getting down to it, and I want to show you the difference there. Now Matthew 27:52.
Reader: (VERY SOFTLY) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went in to the holy city and appeared unto many.
Dr. Kinley: Now you'll have to do better than that, I can't hardly hear up here myself. So you have to read it out loud. I want everybody to hear.
Reader: and came out of the graves after his resurrection.
Dr. Kinley: Now they came out of.., suppose you get the...
Dr. Harris: and behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain.
Dr. Kinley: Now behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain. Now when you say that, a lotta people don't even know what the veil of the temple is because they hadn't heard nothing about the temple, only just in a passive way, like the masons or oddfellows or something or other like that. But to have a profound knowledge of what the veil of the temple is. They don't have a knowledge of it. Now that means as we shown you here the veil of the temple was rent in twain; that is to say that it was completely separated just like you rip it out between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place, just ripped on out. Now if you get that far as of now. If you could see that the veil of the flesh is ripped out. Let me see if I can clarify that. Now this veil concealed the Most Holy Place. You couldn't see into the Most Holy Place for the veil of the temple. The high priest was to go through there once every year on the 10th day of October. That was called the Day of Atonement. Once a year. But now the Messiah, listen, said the veil of the temple was rent in twain, that is, it was completely torn out. Now you remember He told them, He said, now when you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, look folks, listen, He said stand in the Holy Place. Now He has died and His blood and the life is running out of there. It was for the purification and the cleansing and the redemption of mankind. And then you would stand here. Now He died now, just like you see it on that chart there. But now He's resurrected and so this veil of temple is just torn completely out. Now God abode in the.., between the wings of the cherubims in the Most Holy Place. Now what I'm telling you about is this: that you are now.., with the veil torn out, you are right in the presence. Now that's what I'm telling you. Do you get it now? You know good and well if he took this chart down, he would see what was in there. Well it's took down. Now God said that He'd dwell between the wings of
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the cherubim in the Most Holy Place. So now when I come up and say that you're in the judgement as of now, somebody said, 'now he don't know what he's talking about.' Get the point? Now the veil of the temple is rent in twain after His resurrection. And many of the bodies of the s.., well you better read that.
Dr. Harris: and the earth did quake and rocks rent
Dr. Kinley: That's right. The earth quaked and the rocks rent.
Dr. Harris: and the graves were opened
Dr. Kinley: and the graves were opened
Dr. Harris: and many bodies of the saints
Dr. Kinley: and many bodies of the saints
Dr. Harris: which slept arose
Dr. Kinley: which slept arose
Dr. Harris: and came out of the graves after his resurrection
Dr. Kinley: and came out of the graves. And what?
Dr. Harris: came out of the graves after his resurrection.
Dr. Kinley: after his resurrection
Dr. Harris: and went into the holy city
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Now He's the first fruit of them that slept. He's the first one that ever died and resurrected from the dead. That does not die any more (anymore?). Yes, Lazarus died and was resurrected. And not only that Elijah raised a widow's son, and all like that. Adam, he died and was buried, but He is the first one that ever died that is resurrected and never dies no more. Eternal life. And Paul looks at it and said He brought the light, Life and Immortality through the power of Yahweh to raise Yahshua the Messiah from the dead. And now after His resurrection, after, not before. We always like to pinpoint these words and show you that He is the ____. Adam was the first, Adam back in the Garden of Eden, was the first one to commit a sin and die. Yes. He died before Abel ____ ____ ____. He died before Abel was born.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes he did. Died right there in the garden. And he walked around in a physical body 930 years all total. And then it was manifested afterward, taken that physical body to the grave. Do you understand, do you understand?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: I like to explain it so you can understand, so you can see where you are. Now then, after His resurrection, many bodies of the saints, they come out of the graves and then did what?
Dr. Harris: went into the holy city.
Dr. Kinley: went into the holy city. What is the name of this holy city?
Student Body: Jerusalem.
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Dr. Kinley: Jerusalem. Alright. And what else?
Dr. Harris: and appeared unto many.
Dr. Kinley: and appeared unto many. Alright. Read, read.
Dr. Harris: Now when the centurion and they that were with him
Dr. Kinley: Now when the centurion and they that were with him
Dr. Harris: watching Jesus, saw the earthquake
Dr. Kinley: saw the earthquake.
Dr. Harris: and those things that were done.
Dr. Kinley: and those things that were done.
Dr. Harris: they feared greatly saying
Dr. Kinley: they feared greatly saying
Dr. Harris: truly this was the Son of God.
Dr. Kinley: Now they put Him to death, because He said He was the Son of God. Now I ought to say something about that. Now that's what they put Him to death for, was because He said that He was the Son of God. Now I.., if you would allow me to.
Student Body: Go head doc.
Dr. Kinley: I'm trying all the time to get off of this floor, but I like to explain things as I go along. Now that's what they put Him to death for was because He said that He was the Son of God.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: ... that where I am... Now He's the Son of God walking around in a physical body. The Son of God, He come from God. He is the Son of God and He said that He was the Son of God, for which they put Him to death. Now He said, 'I'm going to prepare a place for you, now if I go, I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am...' where He is standing right here, 'there will ye be also.' Is that what He said?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: If you don't think that's what He said, I'll dig into it. Now look, here's what I wanna tell you. Where He said He was the Son of God, died, resurrected. You are now, if you are in your right place, you understand now where He was then when He said that. Now that's the place where He prepared for you. Behold what manner of love is this that the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God. It's wonderful. Not a baptist. Not a saint. Boy, I told you, you won't never act right. (TAPE BLANKS FOR A SECOND) Well that sounds alright. You are a son of Yahweh. You are the Messiah's body walking around in the earth plane. All of us put together makes up the Messiah of Yahweh and Yahshua. You have within you Elohim, you call it the Holy Ghost, but it is Elohim, and it follows the entire course of your physical body, Dr. Harris will explain that to you sometime, which we speak of as the inner man, that makes you a son of God or a son of Yahweh. It's wonderful people. Thank you Brother Williams. Now let's get back, let's get back. Now you just said there that many of the saints
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that slept in the dust of the earth rose and went on into Jerusalem. Is that what you said? Now here's what I wanna show you in that and where the world and the carnal minded got it all mixed up. All messed up. What God has hid from the wise and prudent and revealed it unto babes. Oh yes. It's true. I don't wanna go to the 37th chapter of Ezekiel and talk about a whole lotta about them things, I don't want to do that, but I do wanna make this real clear to you, that.., listen, from Adam back here, let me see if I can get close to it. This plate right here, Plate 15, where Adam come on down to the grave. Now listen. Listen. It was this man Adam that caused death. Yahshua the Messiah is the second Adam, I said the second Adam, rather than the first.
Student Body: Okay. Alright. Right. Now that's ...
Dr. Kinley: You notice how I put it. Now then, when He died and after His resurrection, all these all the way, all the way down, all the way down, down to the place He prepared. All of 'em. You just read went into the holy city. That's what you just read. You said they went into the holy city. They went into Jerusalem. Now let's see whether this is true or not. Now we have to touch this, now I want you to get the 12th chapter of Hebrews. Now don't forget that now. Don't forget that now. They went into the Holy City, Jerusalem.
Dr. Harris: for ye are not come unto the mount.
Dr. Kinley: Now Paul is telling the Jews, he's making it clear to 'em. He said, you are not come to the literal or to the natural Mount Sinai. Point it out Freddy. That can ____, to the natural, to the physical. You're not come to that. Now read.
Dr. Harris: and that burned with fire.
Dr. Kinley: and that burned with fire.
Dr. Harris: nor unto blackness.
Dr. Kinley: nor unto blackness.
Dr. Harris: and darkness and tempest.
Dr. Kinley: and darkness and tempest.
Dr. Harris: and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words
Dr. Kinley: and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of
Dr. Harris: of words.
Dr. Kinley: of words. Read on.
Dr. Harris: which they that heard entreated
Dr. Kinley: which voice they that heard.
Dr. Harris: that the word should not be spoken to them any more.
Dr. Kinley: that the word should not be spoken to them any more. Read on.
Dr. Harris: for they could not endure that which was commanded.
Dr. Kinley: for they could not endure that which is commanded.
Dr. Harris: and if so much as a beast, that touch the mount.
Dr. Kinley: and if so much as a beast, that touch the mount.
Dr. Harris: it shall be stoned or thrust through with a dart.
Dr. Kinley: That's right. Read.
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Dr. Harris: and so terrible was the sight that Moses said.
Dr. Kinley: and so terrible, oh so terrible was the sight that Moses stood there and trembled himself. We're talking about something folks. Alright read on.
Dr. Harris: I exceedingly feared and quaked.
Dr. Kinley: Now that was Moses who said that there. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: but ye are come unto Mount Sion.
Dr. Kinley: Now look, now this... we read a long way to get down to this part. Now you are not come to the mount that might be touched, but... But what?
Dr. Harris: but ye are come
Dr. Kinley: but now ye are not gonna come. And I keep trying to impress on you today, right now while you're sitting here, not way off down yonder somewhere. I'm trying to tell you that you're in the judgement now. As of.., ye are come, not gonna come. And the preacher gets up and says, 'well now you come on and start on your way to join the church and start on your way now, way to heaven.' And all of your people they died in this church and they went to heaven and all that kinda thing, and all that kind of stuff. Carnal mind just don't penetrate spiritual things, but now the Jews back there are dead, after His resurrection many of the saints which slept in the dust of the earth rose and went on into the holy city Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem that's over there now. And appeared to many. And that Jerusalem beneath was allegorical to Jerusalem above. Now then, but you're not come to the mount that might be touch but ye are come, not gonna come after awhile, right now. Ye are come, he's telling the Jews that. Ye are come. Come to what?
Dr. Harris: Mount Sion.
Dr. Kinley: Mount Sion. Where is Mount Sion? There you are. Through the River Jordan and on into Palestine. Mount Sion. Listen. Read.
Dr. Harris: and unto the city of the living God.
Dr. Kinley: and unto the city of the living God. Read.
Dr. Harris: the heavenly Jerusalem.
Dr. Kinley: Listen the heavenly. Now they rose from the dead and went into the earthly city. Jerusalem, not Rome, not Babylon, I said Jerusalem. Jerusalem beneath is allegorical to Jerusalem above. The natural shows the spiritual. And so that's where they went into. They're not gonna come, but already come. Alright. Read.
Dr. Harris: and to an innumerable company of angels.
Dr. Kinley: and an innumerable company of angels. Read.
Dr. Harris: to the general assembly.
Dr. Kinley: to the general assembly.
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Dr. Harris: and church of the firstborn.
Dr. Kinley: and church of the firstborn. Watch your reading. Watch your reading. Alright read on.
Dr. Harris: which are written in heaven.
Dr. Kinley: which are written in heaven.
Dr. Harris: and to God.
Dr. Kinley: Listen here. I just got through telling you, I just got through telling you that. You're come to all that there is. You don't see it now with your physical eye, but it's so anyhow. Anybody said, 'I don't believe that.' Don't.., still don't make no difference. The veil of the temple of the flesh has been ripped out. And not only that, you have come to the spirit. Read that Dr. Harris.
Dr. Harris: and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
Dr. Kinley: And to the spirits of just men. Let me explain. All of these that down here that look forward, that looked forward to His coming and His death. Now they rose ____ ____ city, here He is ____ ____ ____, they went on in Jerusalem, and appeared to many, after His resurrection, into Jerusalem. Now then you have come to the.., not the earthly Jerusalem but the heavenly Jerusalem, and listen, to the spirits, not bodies, spirits of just men made perfect. Somebody stand around and looked around and said, 'how many you got in your church? Just that few? No, you are mistaken about it. Gabriel, Michael and all of the angels belong to this. You get it? We're not gonna start the thing and fly off to God. We are with Him now. We're in the judgement now. We've come to all that there is to come to. I mean now. In the spirit. To the spirits of just men made perfect and to the general assembly. And that's why Messiah said, many of them was with Abraham, go on in before you, Pharisees and scribes, enter into... He was there. Job looked at Him and he said this, he said, I know that my Redeemer liveth and that He shall stand in the earth at the latter day. And He sure did stand in the earth at the latter day, said, and though skin worms devour this body of mine yet in my flesh shall I see God. ____ ____ ____ ____ So now the sinews, God laid them sinews upon him, then when He penetrated that veil, took 'em right on back up there, and now we've come to the spirits of all of those. And we now stand in the presence of God. We're now in the judgement with the veil of the temple rent in twain. We're not trying to play church or nothing like that, but we're in the reality of every ____. Now we want to be conscious of that. We've already come to it, but it doesn't appear. That's where the trouble is. It doesn't appear. Now listen. And then I'll be through. I hope. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Let me tell you about this resurrection day. Now in the 20th chapter of Revelations. It said, now they lived and reign. You preach, we all preach, listen folks. Listen at me. Peter said in the third chapter of the second epistle of Peter. Are you listening? Are you sure you're listening? Real sure? And then the Apostle Paul confirms the statement by saying the same identical thing, that God is highly exalted above all principalities and powers, not only in this world but in that which is to come. Listen. Listen now at me. They said that... I like to demonstrate. He said, He had set Him down at the right hand. We're coming from alpha, going to omega. And now He's.., went
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in the grave, He's come out. So now He's at the right hand and sitting down upon the throne. Now if He's setting upon the throne, what I'm trying to get you to see? Somebody say talking about the ____, the only difference and all this kinda thing, he's talking about his ... (ONE SIDE OF THE ORIGINAL REEL RECORDING ENDED AND CONTINUED ON THE NEXT SIDE)
Dr. Kinley: It's wonderful. ____ ____ ____ ____. 'Jesus is coming.' I beg your pardon He is not coming. We're after the truth here. You say that Christ in you is the hope of glory. You say that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. You say that we have received the spirit. That's what you say. So then if we have received the spirit, why then it's in you now. Oh, it's wonderful. That permeates our whole Bible.., being. And then I'd like to say this to you too. You don't have to be placed on no probationary ____ to see how you're doing. I'm gonna tell you how you're doing. You ain't gonna do right. You haven't got the Holy Spirit in you, you can talk like it all you want, but you're not gonna do right. You can put your finger on.., read anything in the Bible you want to. Somebody said, 'well over here we're preaching holiness.' Paul said that to the Hebrews, follow peace and holiness with all men without which no man shall see the Lord. Said, 'brother, we're preaching holiness here.' Now they blow the whole thing out of its true context. Blew the whole thing out of its context. Now here's how.., want me to tell you how the new ____ ____ ____. Now Paul is telling the Jews. Now you Jews you follow peace since the Holy Spirit was given to you first. Since you were to go the Gentiles and preach to the Gentiles Yahweh and Yahshua the Messiah. Well what's the Gentiles doing? They're out there, instead of worshipping Yahweh, they're worshipping Bel, Baal, and Moloch. Idols is what I'm talking about. So now he's telling them this. I told you what they were doing. Now he's telling the Jews, since you've got the Holy Spirit and he's sent to the Gentiles, said, now you go out there and you follow peace with all of 'em, and holiness without which.., since you have it, they won't see it without you preaching it to 'em. Why? Because you been engaged in worshipping idols. But the ignoramus preacher, they get up and say, 'well look.' He says, 'well...' He always puts a lotta things back on the shelf that don't belong there. Then he say that Jesus said, 'ye are the lights of the world.' Didn't say no such a thing. The Jew was the light of the world. They say he said, 'well, you take and you eat.' Talking about the communion. He didn't say no such a thing for you to take and eat nothing. Told you not to. When you're blind and you can't see. Said, 'well Jesus was setting up a way for us to follow.' Well if that's the case then, why weren't you circumcised? Why when you.., before you were baptized, why did you go on out there and get baptized, if He's setting up a way, why don't you go down to the cross and get killed? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Then when we turned around and we did this. We said, 'Jesus keep me near the cross.' Get as far away from that as you possible can get. Get on into heaven. That's how far away from it you need to be. Alright. Now read that.
Dr. Harris: and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years.
Dr. Kinley: and they. Better read the whole thing there doc.
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Dr. Harris: and I saw a throne.
Dr. Kinley: and I saw a throne.
Dr. Harris: and they sat upon it.
Dr. Kinley: and they sat upon it. Now you see the 12 apostles of the Lamb with the others that were under the Dispensation of the Law. 12 and 12 are 24. The 12 apostles. He Himself sat down on the throne. And now John says, he saw thrones and they that sat upon... The apostles along with those 12 heads of the other tribes which makes 24. Said, I saw 'em, I saw the throne. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: and judgement was given unto them
Dr. Kinley: and judgement was given unto them. Now look and listen. Are you listening? Sure? Well now, them individuals, in that case the apostles, judgement was given unto them.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And they preached the gospel and that judged every man. From the Day of Pentecost on down, mark that day, the sixth day of June, AD 33 about 9 o'clock in the morning. And they preached. From that time on down judgement was given. And Peter puts it this way, if the judgement, if the judgement first begins at the house of God, or the house of the Jews. If judgement first, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel. So I'll tell you now that whether you're conscience of it or not conscience of it, you're in the judgement as of now. The devil he tells you about all.., you'll get straighten out before you get down yonder to the judgement. They're not realizing that it's going on now. Alright, read Dr. Harris, judgement was given unto them.
Dr. Harris: I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for a witness.
Dr. Kinley: Then I saw the souls of them. Listen, and I saw the souls of them, not bodies. This man is in the spirit. I saw the souls of them that were beheaded. Now look, where do you see the souls of them that were beheaded? Purgatory? No. Right here. Right here under the altar. I saw the souls under the altar, which were beheaded for a witness. Then what else?
Dr. Harris: and which had not worshipped the beast.
Dr. Kinley: which had not worshipped the beast.
Dr. Harris: neither his image.
Dr. Kinley: neither his image. Now we'll tell you about the beast later on. I don't have time. Neither his image.
Reader: neither had received his mark upon their foreheads.
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Dr. Kinley: neither had received his mark in their forehead.
Dr. Harris: or in their hands.
Dr. Kinley: or in their hands.
Dr. Harris: and they lived and reign with Christ a thousand years.
Dr. Kinley: and they lived and reign with him a thousand years. Let me summarize that for you. Real quick in a few words listen. Catch the summary now. All of these, all of them here, all of these that looked forward, shut up unto faith back there and looked forward to Him coming, and believed in Him on the Day of Pentecost. All of them clear on down to here that ____ ____; and here is where they come to the spirits of just men, the Day of Pentecost, and judgement was given even upon Israel, their ____, and their inner man, not the outer man. He saw the souls of them which were beheaded. Now read on Dr. Harris.
Dr. Harris: but the rest of the dead
Dr. Kinley: but the rest of the dead. Now listen, listen, the rest of the dead. Now you talked about here these that were up to here. These down in here, that covered the rest of us that live here, and that would come to, I mean the apostles. But now the rest of the dead at this time, when He raised from the dead, many of 'em went into Jerusalem, to make it real clean there. Here it is, it's clean. Not the apostles, not them that were living. No, not a soul living, not a one, not the first one, apostles and all, Peter, James, John, and all the rest of 'em were dead at that time because they had not received of the Holy Ghost. They were dead. But these that rose after His resurrection and went on into Jerusalem. But the rest of the dead lived not again until after this ____. But the rest of the dead were those, come from Pentecost on down were being resurrected, were being resurrected and that judgement is still going on, to the spirits of just men ____ ____, that was what the rest of the dead. These were they that were back down there which were, which was resurrected here again, and then the apostles, we all come to this and on down through this. Now that ____ is the first resurrection. On such, on such. That the first death, it's the second death that hath no power. Not the second resurrection. The second death. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power. Now did I make that clean?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: All of them was figured in the first resurrection. All. The whole thing all the way down. Blessed ____ ____ ____ ____ ____. We have part in the first resurrection and the second resurrection. I wanna make it clear because you don't have no... He said He was the Resurrection. You don't have but one Messiah. You can't have two messiahs. Now if you can manage some kinda way to get a couple of messiahs, you can have a couple of resurrections. But if you can't manage that, why then that's out. He is the, The Resurrection. He is.., and the second death, all of the living, everywhere all the way through, clear on
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through. That's what we're doing here now is preaching.
David said many in the congregation that were not sanctified. Now if you set here this morning. and you haven't had a part, that you haven't been resurrected from the dead then this sermon is to you. Get the point? It's to you cause you can have a part in the first resurrection. Then instead of you not having any part of the second death, going to the Lake... I have you know too, while I'm on that score, you're already in the Lake. Said, 'I don't feel no burning.' No. Yes you do. You feel some burning. You got that old guilty conscience. It's burning too. And somebody said, 'well now, look here,' said, 'I don't wanna be like Williams and Mitch here. When I go to get in the church,' said, 'I'm not gonna live the life.' Just burning. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Just a burning. Yes indeed. lt's burning. Somebody said, 'well look, I know what to.., it's like this you know, when I do get in the church, I wanna live the life.' All that old ignorance. You ain't gonna do that. You had 4000 years before to live something else. And nobody down there lived nothing. You can't make it. It takes the Spirit in you. It you could make it and if you could live it, He died in vain.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Somebody's always telling you, the devil said, 'now look, you got to clean up.' Then you throw away a brown mule chewing tobacco, get the whisky bottles out of your pocket, and all them different.., he can't see nothing over something literal, something natural. He said, 'now that's a mortal life, you got to clean up before you come to present yourself to God.' Now that's what he, that's what he says. Now listen, if you could clean up, as Isaiah said, wash and make you clean. Remember when Jesus washed the disciples feet as a washing of regeneration. Now if you could clean up you got a whole lot of washing to do. Washing of regeneration. Now if you could clean up, why then He just died in vain. And then not only that. If you gonna do all of this, why you didn't need Him at all.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: The devil's got everything all twisted around. And he said, 'now you got to put your whiskey bottle down.' That's something literal and natural you can see. He said, 'now taste, or touch not, taste not.' Paul, he's talking about ____ ____ that. He's talking.., just the very thing that he's talking about not to touch and not to taste, it's the very thing they take, take ____ ____. ____ ____ ____ Now don't you start nothing with me, don't, don't start nothing with me because if you do... 35 years of this warfare, I've lived that. I've carried it from coast to coast and every which a way. Now the taste you want here, as Paul put it and the thing that you want to get into is to.., it said, now let us.., therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on into perfection, not laying again the foundation for repentance from dead works. That's all dead. For it's impossible for those, are you listening, for it's impossible for those who have tasted, have tasted. Tasted. It wasn't passed around on no plate either. Have tasted of the good Word of God and listen and to powers, great powers, if they fall away, listen, ____ ____ ____ ____. ____ ____. Yes, indeed. So now if you are in that group, you're in that group
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wherein there is eternal life. It's obtainable. It's obtainable now. And it won't be no probationary period. You won't be placed on no probation, but you will be translated, as the Apostle Paul puts it, into the Kingdom, into the kingdom of His dear Son. When? Now, ____ ____ back there. Where you have come to the general assembly. You have come to that. When? Now. Where? In the heavenly Jerusalem. Oh, it's truthfully wonderful. Now you're talking about happiness, sure enough happiness, true happiness. You don't have to try to put on either. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And say, 'well...' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) 'I'm trying all I know how.' You don't have to be bothered with that. You don't have to be trying all that hard with heavy burden and all pounding down on you. And then you have.., trying to give a tenth, and all that different kinda thing. That's a lotta foolishness, a lotta ____ that you're doing out there in these... I said ____ ____ ____.
Now I guess I've said enough. You know now I'm back, don't you? (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) Yes indeed you know now, and I'm really back. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And let me, let me say this too, while I was absent in bodily presence. I told you that I was present in spirit. So now I'm present both ways. I'm present both ways. And I hope and trust that those of you that didn't understand the will of the Lord would illuminate your understanding and rescue you from bondage. Let me put it in words you can understand. Rescue you from ecclesiastical bondage, not political, but ecclesiastical bondage. The devil's gambling for your soul. Trying to get you in his holds, ____ ____ ____ ____ ____. The cry, this great cry, come out of her my people. Confusion. Babylon. Come out of her my people that you be not partaker of her sins and receive of her plagues. They can't see nothing, only the natural. And they're blaming it all on Him. Say, 'He said for us to do this,' and He said for us to do that. Said, 'He was setting an example for us.' Um um. It's not that. Heaven was searched, the earth was searched, no man was worthy, found worthy to open the book and to loose the seal. None of the patriarchs, Gabriel and Michael and none of the arch angels. I, I'll be preaching here shortly. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) You come on down, come on down. ____ took the book out of the right hand of Him that sitteth on the throne. And he opened the seals there. Loosed the seals; that is to say, He did all of the works. A plan of redemption was already, already. And then this going to heaven business. I oughta tell you something about that. I ought too.
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: We are already in heaven. Paul said, you hath He quickened who were dead in trespasses and sin. And he said, you hath He quickened to raise us up and sit us together in heavenly places in Yahshua the Messiah. But now, somebody wants to fly... Hold it. Wait a minute. Don't you see that Yahweh is everywhere. If you take the wings and fly off even farther than the astronauts have been able to penetrate, He's there. And if you make your bed in hell, He's there. Whither shall you go or flee from the presence of God? God is everywhere. ____ the Holy Spirit and He seeks such. Listen, He seeks such to worship Him in the spirit and in truth. Then if that's the case He has abolished and nailed the natural things to the cross that we might get into the spiritual things. And that's what He's seeking you to do. That's what the great problem is universally so. And there's
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some things that the devil is using to deceive and to fool the people with. And deception is universal. And where sin does abound, grace does much more abound. It's by the grace of God through faith that you're saved. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done or will do. It is not that. Listen. Faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of the Lord. Unless we could show you how these things work and make some sense, then you'd have some confidence in it, but if we can't show you how it works, so that you can have some confidence and so you can see the reality of the thing, you can't have no faith in it.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: You take almost all religion that you see in the world today. They go to print something about Noah's ark, they're liable to have a whole lotta windows and doors, ____ the doors in it and everything. And so far as the stories in it. They don't see nothing about it. The Roman Catholic Church says that's not universal, it's local. They don't know nothing about it. You must come down here and hear something taught. Why was there but one door in Noah's ark? Why wasn't there but one light in the ark? Why was it three stories? When God made the universe, with it's molecular structure of the universe, we're taught in these modern ages about nuclear research and atomic research.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Everybody has studied it. And 420 years before the birth of the Messiah, there was one that suspicioned the existence of the atoms, but we never got into the research until here lately. And then when we got into that, and got down to ultra microscopic particle of matter, listen at me, we found there, that the atom is a proton, a neutron, and electron. The great big question mark is why is it that way? It's because.., I'll talk so you can understand, it's because the Godhead Itself is threefold, and that is a manifestation of the invisible in the visible. That's why the ark had to be, have three stories. And that's why the sanctuary had to have three stories. That's why the temple had to have... It isn't just something to talk about. You are pneuma, psyche, and soma; or soul, body, and spirit. You are made in the likeness and image of God. All of those things, everything in the universe. David got so elated about it, and one time he said, everything in His temple should sing glory to God.
Student Body: Okay.
Dr. Kinley: He said I never understood the thing until He went into the sanctuary. Yes indeed. I, I. Folks, I, I, I been filled up every since 1931. And I never been able to become totally unnoticeable. Night and day, loaded day and night. Anytime you touch me, ____ the well ____, I'm ready to preach ____ ____ ____. I don't have to be prodded or poked. I don't have to be pushed and pulled or nothing like that. I live under the influence of God. If you'll permit me to say so, I realize who my inner self is and I live with God. And I know you know that. Thank you.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS)
(END OF TAPE
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10) 1966/1967: COME OUT OF BABYLON
(also known as: COME ON UP, JOHN)
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on reel to reel recorder
audio cassette recording received from Cynthia Payne
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog #: 67CB
transcribed by Shannon Brewster
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Geraldine Rothstein
final proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES:
1. .., indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. I wanna give my little testimony and tell you that I am indeed happy and glad to be here. To talk with you and to commune with you about the things that be of God. Now I listened at the testimonies of the others this morning. I requested that they have a testimony. Now that's what I'm fixing to do, I'm fixing to give you my testimony, Dr. Harris has given you yours. And you had an opportunity to give yours. So everybody in the place had a opportunity to preach that wanted to preach or speak or tell you about it. And it is by their testimony that they overcome. Now if you set there and missed your opportunity, don't blame nobody but yourself.
Now this is what I wanna get down to. First of all, I noticed that a good many of you talked about the churches. The churches: plural. And now, some people resent you talking about the churches. And will tell you so to your face. And as we have told you many time, often times people walk up to you and say, 'Well what church do you belong to?' Now they're totally unconscious that they've asked you a fool question. Paul said, foolish and unlearned questions avoid because they do gender or stir up strife. Now you oughta avoid asking anybody what church they belong to if you are wise enough and conscious enough to see that there isn't but one church. Get the point? Now that's real, true, divine, etymological, that means original.
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(also known as: COME ON UP, JOHN)
And I wanna tell you this about that church that often makes people sore and caused a lot of confusion and strife. Now there's nobody joining no church. Now you don't get in The Church that way. Now how do you get in The Church? You are born in it, just like you got in your family. You didn't join it. Didn't no.., your parents didn't, they didn't invite you in. You just.., you know how you got in there. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now listen, we're after down right, hard down facts. That's what we're after. That's what this school was established for: to tell you the truth, and the truth like it is irrespective and regardless... Somebody said, 'Well you hurt my feelings.' I can't help it I have to tell the truth. You got your feelings hurt. Its better to have your feelings hurt, hurt now than it is for you to be hurting, gone to hell later on. What's the matter with you? Eternal destruction is nothing to be compared with you getting your feelings hurt. You get the point? It's wonderful. It's really wonderful. Now the devil just don't like you talking about them things. The churches.
Now listen. I'm gonna tell you plain, flat-footed. Christendoom (Christiandoom?) is wrong period.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And I don't have no apologies to make for it. And I'm capable and qualified to prove it. And I dare you, double-dare anybody to challenge me. Done it for 35 years and every last one that's ever done it had to go on down. Bishops, Cardinals, and everything else. I didn't come for somebody to argue with me or argue with you. I come to tell you what's right about it. Listen, God did send me. I proved it to you that He did. I won't ask you to believe it. And it's immaterial to me whether you believe it or not. I'll put it like the Messiah put it. He said to the Jews, He didn't come to be ministered unto. He come to minister. He didn't come to ask their permission about what he should do. He didn't need their instruction to the Sanhedrin Council. Isn't that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: 'What did you.., where did you come from?' He said He come from above. 'Well what did you come here for?' 'To do My Father's will.' Have to use a little psychology, divine psychology once in awhile. That old carnal minded Sanhedrin Council, just like the old carnal minded hypocrite preachers out here in these churches. Now if you don't like that, forget about it, just get up and go on home. It's all right with me. Messiah said this. Now listen at what I'm gonna say to you. This is what I'm gonna say to you. Now in His day or in His time there was a pharisee, that's a sect. There was a sadducee, that's a sect. There was a scribe, that's a sect. There was a Essenes, that's a sect. There was a Nazarene, that's a sect. You get what I'm talking about? Just like the sects you got out here now ____ ____ out in them churches. And He said, listen at me, He said, 'I come to do the will of My Father.' I want you to understand and I'm telling you to your feet, never sent no preacher to build no church.
Student Body: Right.
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(also known as: COME ON UP, JOHN)
Dr. Kinley: That's not even in the almanac, to say nothing about the Bible.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes I know folks get sore about them things. He said upon this rock, I will build, not Bishop Short, not Henry C. Kinley. I don't have no church to invite you into. And then somebody got up and said, 'Well I'm gonna open the door to this church this morning.' Now that's the devil. Now that's the devil. 'Now why did you say that?' Cause the Messiah said, 'Behold I set before you an open door and no man can close it.' What are you doing standing up there talking about you're opening the doors of the church? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's the Mount Sion Baptist Church on John St. in Cincinnati, Ohio, call itself preaching against us. Got up and open, throwed up his hands and said he's opening the doors of the church. Dropped dead right there on the floor.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Everybody in Cinc... ever come from Cincinnati knows it. Now here we want you to know what The Church is. Now here in Acts of Apostles. Get Acts of Apostles. This is what he said. The second chapter of Acts of Apostles. I want you to just notice one thought there. Then I wanna correlate it with what He said in Matthew the 16th chapter, that upon this rock I will build My Church. In Acts of Apostles it said, the Lord, the Lord, you heard me you're not blind, I said the Lord added to the church daily them that should be saved. You wasn't involved in it. Then He didn't add nothing in that church that was wrong, no sinners, not the first one. None, not no good and bad, no, none of that. Lord don't make mistakes like that. He added to the church daily.
Now what, now the next thing we need to know something about it. What is the Church? Before we gonna know what we're talking about. Now for you to say something to Apostle Paul and to the rest of the apostles, any one of 'em, they wouldn't know what you're talking about when you said church.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: That's incorrectly translated in your Book. Now the true, divine, etymological or original meaning of the word church is congregation or assembly.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes, indeed, that's it. Now look to take the actual true meaning of the word, which we always do. We're after the reality of it here. If you take congregation or assembly, that's the real meaning of it. Now David said this, many were in the congregation back here, many were in the congregation that were not saved. Many of 'em was in that, He was very polite about it. A little more politer than the Messiah was when He come along. He said, 'now I didn't come to call the righteous,' there's your divine psychology, 'but sinners to repentance.' Sanhedrin Council stuck their chest out said, 'let Him alone. He didn't come to call us.' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) ____ set up ____ ____, set up in the Sanhedrin Council.
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'What Sanhedrin Council?' I mean the 70 elders, 'just let Him alone, said that they that are sick they're the ones need a physician, them that are well, they don't need no physician.' Said, 'let Him alone, take up, take the sick on down there to Him.' They went to Him with more of that psychology, said, 'Good Master?' Said, 'why you call Me good? There's none good but God.' Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Said, 'now I..,' let me repeat this. That He didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. 'Let Him alone.' Now if you're gonna listen at all these people down out there in these congregations and assemblies, you won't find nobody out there, much but that don't say that they're saved. Everybody's Christian. Very seldom do you ever get a sinner. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Its hard to get anybody to even say that they are. And they're having an awful time getting this congregation to grow up. Not withstanding the man in the pulpit is a sinner.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Unconscious of it. Unless, as Dr. Harris told you, unless you go to the law and to the testimony, verified and confirmed one thing with the other, that man standing in that pulpit is a sinner. Now I'm gonna make myself clear. 'I didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.' Said, 'let Him alone, He didn't come to call us.' 'Why didn't He come to call us?' 'Cause we're righteous, He come to call sinners to repentance, that's what He said.' Well now if they had went to the law and looked in the law and in the prophets... If they had did that, and in the prophets... This is what it said there. 'There is none righteous, no not a one.' It's good they didn't look in that scripture. (DR. KINLEY AND THE STUDENT BODY LAUGH) Now then look, if there was any righteous then righteousness would have been by the law and there wouldn't been any need of Him coming. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen folks. Now you are saved by the blood. You are saved by His life, and without the shedding of blood or without His offering. And not just a man hanging out there on a tree either. I don't mean that. Lotta people think that's what it means, but it don't. He said He offered Himself to God, listen at me, through the eternal spirit, this wasn't a man hanging out there on a tree. That wasn't the way it was. And that was a sacrificial body that was prepared by all of the God that exists. That's what that was. The Jews, they looked at Him as a man, but that's what it was. Now let me get into the crux and we can close this out. Let me get into the crux and close it out.
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Now in order to find out what I'm talking about, I want to read into, in the 18th chapter of Revelation. I want you to... And tell you what I am. I want you to see that I resent, I want you to see that it is my job to talk about these hell-holes. These so-called churches. That's my job. That's what I come for. Just like He come, and when He got around to it, the Messiah, when He got around to it... You got a Bible. When it come time for Him to die out there on the cross, went right back to them same people, the Sanhedrin Council, stood up before 'em, them that thought they were righteous, them that thought His coming in the world didn't concern them. And He said to 'em, said, 'you hypocrites, you...'
(TAPE STOPPED BRIEFLY)
I want you to know that. And Satan is the pastor, and his imps, and they are here in the world. Now I didn't say that. Don't blame that on to me. 18th chapter of Revelations. Here's John out on the Isle of Patmos. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven having great power;
Dr. Kinley: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven. Read on, I...
Dr. Harris: Having great power; and the earth was lighted with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying Babylon the great is fallen,
Dr. Kinley: Babylon. Babylon the Great is fallen. Listen, you know just as well as I do that God's people were in captivity in Babylon.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: You know just as well as I do that the word Babylon itself means confusion.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: I don't have to testify to you and tell you that this church over here and that congregation or that.., all of it, they're confusion.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now he put that in that book, Rip. And that angel that come down.., and John saw, saw that scarlet-colored beast with them spots on it. Now you know a leopard can't change his spots. And that women decked and arrayed that you're reading about there, with blue, purple, and scarlet. Why don't you look around and see something about that blue, purple, and scarlet being in this temple, blue, purple, and scarlet, riding on a scarlet colored beast. Leopard with spots on it. That women setting there with the cup in her hand, riding on it. That is the apostate church.
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Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: Confusion. That's what makes up the Babylon out here. Yes I know they resent me talking about it. Somebody says, 'Well I don't believe in fighting other churches.' I do. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now listen, John when he looked and saw that, I want you to see, look at your condition and look at your shape. John when he looked and saw that women sitting on that scarlet colored beast with those seven heads, and that cup in her hand. He said, 'I looked up on her with great admiration.' You got it there in the Book. And you and I, when we didn't know no better, when we was in confusion and in Babylon, we looked up on whatsoever sect or cult we belonged to. We looked up on it as great admiration, just like John said he looked upon it with great admiration. Is that what you got in your Book there?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: And then after he looked up on it with great admiration. Listen, he said he heard a voice from heaven saying, 'Come up hither, John.' You have to go on up in the spirit to understand what you're looking at. And then when you see it from above or in the spirit, elevated in the spirit so he can see what it is, then it won't be so admir.., admirational. She was the mother of harlots. But he had to get on up yonder, you can't see it from down here Rip.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now then listen. Listen at me. John said, I have to cut it up short cause time is gone. John said he heard that voice and he cried, 'Babylon is fallen, she is fallen.' Listen at me now. 'Come out of her my people! Come out of her my people.' What's that for? 'That you be not be partaker of her sins and receive of her plagues.' And nobody gonna stop me from crying, 'Come out Babylon, come out of confusion.' Deception, come out of that darkness. Behold what Jeremiah said that get up out of ____. Yeah, I say they look fine, but when you get on up in the spirit...
Now I'm gonna tell you why I said get on up in the spirit. I'm gonna make that plain to you too. As Habakkuk said in the second chapter, 'write the vision, make it plain so that he can read, he that reads it can run.' That you be not partaker... Come out of her, that you be not partaker of her sins and receive of her plagues. Wallace, listen at me. Now you listen at me. John had to go on up in the spirit before he could see. Now I wanna show you that apostate church. I wanna show you what made it apostate. I wanna show you why it's wrong and I wanna show it to you out there on every street around here. And you can't deny it to save your soul. And I'm justified in telling you that God said come out of Babylon or confusion. You got to know something definite. You got to know something positive. You got to know something concrete. You gotta go on up in the spirit. Now let me tell you what I mean now. I'm fixing to tell you now. And I wanna tell you in words you can understand too. You won't have to ponder about it.
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Now this First Covenant stood in meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinances. Hebrew 9 says so. Said the first church or the first congregation and assembly stood, listen at me Freddie, it stood only in meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinance until the time of the reformation. That is to say, that is to say, everything that that congregation or that assembly or that church... Let's repeat it. Everything.., and there wasn't nobody in it but Jews, unless you're circumcised. Everything they did, every ordinance, that God ____ gave 'em something natural, carnal, physical. It stood only in that. Meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinances until the time of the reformation.
Messiah come and said don't you think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets, but I come to fulfill. And truthfully, truthfully, or verily, verily, listen at me, that one jot or one tittle of the law and the prophets would not pass until it is all fulfilled. Psalms said this and Saul so also in Hebrews, that he come. Sacrifices and burnt offerings when they was offering 'em up, sacrifices and burnt offerings thou wouldest not but a body has thou prepared for me. And then said I, lo, I come in the volume of the Book as it written of Me to do Thy will O God, He taketh away the first that He might establish the second. He took every last one of them carnal ordinances... And when He bowed His head in the locks of His shoulders out on Golgotha, John 19:30, said, 'Its finished.' What's finished? I'm finished fulfilling the law and the prophets. I've moved every last one of them carnal ordinances out of it and now we going on up in the spirit to which the natural pointed to.
Now here Christiandoom (Christendoom?) out here that don't want nothing said about standing around talking transubstantiation. Here Christiandoom is out there dragging somebody around in the water. Here is Christiandoom out there washing somebody's feet. Here is Christiandoom out there practicing all of them natural things and they don't want me to say nothing about it. And I'm telling you to come out of that darkness. That's the spirit John took on.., John had to go on up the spirit to see that. And that apostate church, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism they resent you saying anything about it. My job, I was sent to tell on 'em, cause they ain't doing nothing but practicing the things that was down under the law, it's been fulfilled and moved out of the way. And now we've come to the spirit of it. And you have to go on up in the spirit. Got to come on up out of that literal, that physical, that natural congregation and assembly. Got to go on in to the general assembly and the church of the firstborn. Got to come on away. And now ____ ____ ____. You got to come on up, as the Apostle Paul said, ye are not come, talking to the Jews back there in this dispensation on the Day of Pentecost. Said, 'you're not come to the mount that might be touched.' But if you're not come to the mount that might be touched, then where you come to? Said, 'you're come to God and you are come to the general assembly.' You are come to innumerable.., or The Church of the firstborn and to an innumerable company of angels. Now look that's a type or that's the body of the Messiah. Now look what if... What do you tell me what you look like standing around and offering Gabriel and Michael some crackers and, and some grape juice.
Student Body: Alright doc.
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Dr. Kinley: You see what I'm talking about, don't you Bishop?
Bishop Short: Oh yes.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed, you have to get on up in the spirit. You have to get on away from that stuff. Get your eyes open so you can tell the difference.
And yes I'm gonna talk about it, talk about it. That's all I'm... Say look, I'm not talking about no personalities. Judas Iscariot, so far as his fleshly body was concerned, it's as good as yours and mine. Every sin that a man commits, he commits it without the body. I'm not talking about the body, I'm talking about the spirit in that body. I'm telling you that them are devils that's preaching this foolishness to you out there. That is Babylon and that is confusion and you know yourself every which a way you go some hypocrite out there will tell you, say, 'Listen Freddie,' said, 'you haven't been baptized right.' Dr. Gross here, if he don't mind me mentioning his name, the president of the school, been baptized six or seven times. Haven't you Dr. Gross? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And there's some others sitting out there have been baptized six or seven times. Why? Because them lying and hypocrite preachers they haven't got up to it. He said, 'Well listen, your ceremonies or baptism wasn't performed right.' And every time one said that, we wanna be right. In the water we jumped. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And then when we went in and come out. You went in dry and come out wet. And so far as your conscience is concerned, you're a liar if you say you're conscience was transformed. And then somebody said, 'Well Jesus said he that calleth his brother a liar, a fool or a liar, is in danger of hell-fire,' Well I'm not talking to my brother. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) ____ ____ ____ ____. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) My brother knows I'm telling the truth. (THEY CONTINUE LAUGHING) See what I mean? You get it? Yes indeed, my brethren. When that angel said, when John went to bow down to him, he said, 'get up,' said, 'I'm just one of the brethren. You worship God.' Paul in the second chapter of Colossians... I'm telling you folks. Everybody just dib dabbing in these carnal ordinances that were on the other side of the cross over here. They don't know what it's all about. That's Babylon. That's confusion. And God is calling you out of it. Listen, let me say this to you. Messiah said.., He said it Freddy. Don't you think He meant what He said?
Fred Allen, Jr.: Yes sir.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you don't think He said it, I'll read. Maybe you better read it and see. Try reading it for awhile. Then when you read it you let it alone. John 4:23 and 24. And you.., all I'm asking you to do, just let it alone. Read it and we'll get out on time and go on home.
Dr. Harris: God is spirit
Dr. Kinley: Now listen. Messiah said that He proceedeth and come forth from the Father, from the visible part. He said, 'I know Him.' Said, 'we speak that we do know and testify that we have seen.' And you can see by my witnesses. Now I
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can say to them.., repeat what you just read.
Dr. Harris: God is spirit.
Dr. Kinley: God is spirit
Reader: And they that worship him
Dr. Kinley: And they that worship him
Dr. Harris: must worship in spirit
Dr. Kinley: Now that's a must. Bishop, in the 17th chapter of Acts of Apostles, the Apostle Paul told the Grecians that they ought not to think that God dwelled in temples made by hands. You running around here arguing about it? Talking about you and your church down on the corner. God does not dwell in temples made by hands. Isn't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And neither is He worshiped with men's hands. Now every time you come around telling me and you call yourself... (DR. KINLEY HITS SOMETHING REPEATEDLY ABOUT 14 TIMES) He don't dwell in no temples made by hands. And you ought not to think that the Godhead is wood or stone, but the Godhead is spirit. And he came in the world seeking such, you read it, seeking. That's what He come seeking for somebody to worship Him in spirit and in the truth. That's what He's seeking. And you take this mess out of here. Now if you want your feet washed, you go home and wash your own dirty feet. Don't stick 'em up here for me to wash. I'll wash mine, you wash yours. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Somebody said, 'he sure is blasphemous.' No, that symbolized the washing of regeneration and Messiah was the Word of God and when He was washing their feet there, it was the Word of God that was washing their feet. And what did He do it for? He's fulfilling that because Moses brought Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu to the door of the tabernacle and washed their feet and put on the linen garment and anointed them with oil. He's fulfilling that. He is the Word of God Himself and Paul looked at it, over here in the fifth chapter of Ephesians and he said this, 'husbands love your wives even as Messiah also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the water by the Word, that He might present it unto Himself not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but it should be holy and without blemish, or without fault. And the carnal minded preacher, he got the thing all twisted up and he thought that he was talking about a man and his wife. No, no such a thing. And then the last two verses he says this, said, 'this is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.' Now what I'm preaching and teaching you the Word of God, it's the washing of regeneration. Washing. It's the Word that'll cleanse you. And that stuff you got down there literally so and naturally so you go home and wash your own dirty feet. When the Messiah was washing the disciples' feet, Peter said, 'You'll never wash my feet.' He said, 'if I don't wash 'em, you won't have no part with Me.' Said, 'not only my feet, but just give me a bath, I'll just put 'em ____.' You won't no parts of me. Now listen, this is
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what He's saying. Said, 'now, you don't know what I'm doing now.' But listen, he did know, but Peter did know that He was washing feet.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: But what He meant by what He said, he didn't know the meaning of it.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: 'But,' He said, 'ye shall know hereafter.' When the man got the Holy Ghost, then he understood. That's it was the washing of the regeneration by the Word of God. And that that I preached to you is cleaning you up. Its the Word of God. To the Law and to the Testimony and if that doesn't sanctify and cleanse you and wash you up, I'll guarantee that that basin of water down there ain't gonna do you no good. And you drag it through both the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans and it will not translate your mind.
Now how did you get in The Church? We said that He said upon this rock I will build. The devil out there call hisself building churches and he bragged and boasted about it. Said, 'I built one over yonder and I built one over there and I've also built one down yonder.' Bragging about it. Writing about it, what all they done. I tell you it's something else. Now said, 'upon this rock I'll build my church and the very gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' And you know just as well as I do, don't you set there and lie to yourself and don't try to lie to me cause I was assistant pastor for a long... And everything, assistant pastor ____ ____ ____ in all the churches I've ever gone to, they couldn't get along. Now you're telling me the very gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Now you got a lock on the door down there. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) You've got it closed up and the courts trying to get it open. Trying to reconcile. Now you want me to believe that's The Church and you're around, standing around arguing with me about it. What kind of a fool do you think I am? 1 Corinthians 12:13. Now I'll show how He gets you in there.
Dr. Harris: For by one spirit
Dr. Kinley: For by one spirit. Say Wallace, it was.., didn't say water. Read.
Dr. Harris: For by one spirit
Dr. Kinley: For by one spirit. Not two, three, but by one spirit.
Dr. Harris: Are we all baptized
Dr. Kinley: Are we all baptized
Dr. Harris: into one body
Dr. Kinley: into one body
Dr. Harris: whether we be Jews
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Dr. Kinley: Wait. It don't make no difference ____ ____ ____, whether you be Jews or Gentiles.
Dr. Harris: whether we be bond or free
Dr. Kinley: whether we be bond or free
Dr. Harris: and that all have been made to drink into one spirit
Dr. Kinley: and that all have been made to drink into one spirit. Now listen Wallace, could I just tell you just one more thing? Could I just tell you this? Would you suffer me.
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: You don't have opportunity to hear unless you come down here.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Now you listen at what I'm gonna say. Alright read.
Dr. Harris: What shall we say then?
Dr. Kinley: Now look here, if someone would come up to you Bishop Short and say, 'what shall we say then?' You'd think, 'well what kind of a fool is that?' You'd, you'd think he oughta be over yonder somewhere in Camarillo1 someplace. He needs to be looked (locked?) up. He needs to be confined in the iliomasoary or some psychopathic ward or some iliomasoary institution. Get some protection, examined by a psychiatrist. He's nuts, in other words. Mentally deranged. You understand some of these words, don't you? You wouldn't walk up to a man and say, 'well what shall we say then? What shall we say then?' Would you?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Now you see the reason why I'm calling your attention to this is because that chapter is divided there. You got the first verse of that sixth chapter. Now as rule the devil he start like this, saying, 'what shall we say then?' And now you haven't got the subject and the predicate together at all.
_____________________________
1 Camarillo is a mental institution.
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Now if you went back up in the fifth chapter you would find about who the we is. It's talking about the Jews. What shall the Jews say then? What shall we, the Jews, say then? Alright read.
Dr. Harris: Shall we continue in sin,
Dr. Kinley: Now listen at it. Shall we continue in sin?
Dr. Harris: that grace may abound?
Dr. Kinley: that grace may abound?
Dr. Harris: God forbid.
Dr. Kinley: God forbid.
Dr. Harris: How shall we
Dr. Kinley: How shall we, the Jews.
Dr. Harris: that are dead to sin
Dr. Kinley: that are dead to sin
Dr. Harris: live any longer therein?
Dr. Kinley: live any longer therein?
Dr. Harris: Know ye not
Dr. Kinley: Don't you know
Dr. Harris: that so many of us
Dr. Kinley: so many of us, the Jews
Dr. Harris: as were baptized
Dr. Kinley: that was baptized at John's water baptism of repentance before He died. So they didn't baptize no Gentiles. John didn't baptize no Gentiles. Well why didn't he baptize no Gentiles. Look here. All of these that come out of Egypt that was baptized in the cloud and the sea, they was all Jews. And if there wasn't... and He's fulfilling it. So then if He's gonna fulfill it and there wasn't no Gentiles in that, there can't be none in this. Now so many of us that were baptized into Jesus Christ.
Dr. Harris: were baptized into his death
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Dr. Kinley: therefore they had to be baptized before He died in order to be baptized into His death. Freddy, are you listening? We are preaching that Christ raised from the dead. You can't baptize nobody into His death now. Them preachers out there don't understand. Read on.
Dr. Harris: Therefore we
Dr. Kinley: Now therefore
Dr. Harris: we are buried with him
Dr. Kinley: we are buried with him
Dr. Harris: by baptism into death:
Dr. Kinley: by baptism into death:
Dr. Harris: that like as Christ was raised up
Dr. Kinley: that like as Christ was raised up
Dr. Harris: from the dead
Dr. Kinley: from the dead
Dr. Harris: by the glory of the Father,
Dr. Kinley: by the glory of the Father,
Dr. Harris: even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Dr. Kinley: even so we also should walk in the newness of life. Now that's what Paul is saying. Now if you're reading there, you're reading Romans, ain't you? Now Romans are Gentiles, Bishop. Now Paul is not writing no letter to no Romans. He's writing it to the Jews that's left up to Rome, to preach the gospel to the Romans. Every last one of them epistles. And he's sending it there and he's telling them Jews that are up there at Rome. You definitely gotta preach the gospel. Don't you know, you Jews, that is as many of us, the Jews, as was baptized into Jesus Christ, was baptized into His death. Therefore, John had to bury 'em by baptism before they, before He died, in order to baptize 'em into His death. Said, 'therefore that we should rise to walk in the newness of life.' The Jews. 'Therefore what shall we say then? How shall we that are dead...' Who? The Jews, that was dead. ____ ____. Well don't you know? You're supposed to know. ____ ____ ____ supposed to be teaching the Gentiles, don't you know that? Get the point? Alright read on.
Dr. Harris: For if we
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Dr. Kinley: Watch. Watch the curve.
Dr. Harris: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his
Dr. Kinley: If, listen, for if we have been planted. How you feel?
Dr. Gross: Okay.
Dr. Kinley: Listen. You don't have no history, there's no history in the world that shows that the Gentiles ever was planted in any water. So it's just got to be talking about the Jews. You heard me Bishop. They were planted, and I don't mean sprinkled, I mean planted, just like you plant beans and corn and stuff. Put some dirt up over it. Plant it. Planted. Now look, the Gentiles wasn't planted. They was grafted in. How did that happen? By faith. Alright, read.
Dr. Harris: we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Dr. Kinley: we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection, read.
Dr. Harris: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
Dr. Kinley: Knowing this, that our old man
Dr. Harris: is crucified with him
Dr. Kinley: is crucified with him
Dr. Harris: that the body of sin might be destroyed
Dr. Kinley: that the body of sin might be destroyed
Dr. Harris: that henceforth we shall not serve
Dr. Kinley: that from now on we shall not serve sin. If you're not gonna serve sin, what do you go running back and forth confessing to the priest for, if you're not supposed be sinning. He was manifested to make an end of sin. Whosoever is born of God, they do not commit sin. You can't commit sin if you live in the spirit. That don't make sense. Get the point? Skip on down there, take the 11th.
Dr. Harris: Now then
Dr. Kinley: Now then, here you come, here you come, the Gentiles. He said, 'now likewise.
Dr. Harris: reckon ye
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Dr. Kinley: No, don't go do it, Doc. No sir, don't go do it. Just reckon ... just reckon. Likewise. Now just like that, just like happened to the Jews, you Gentiles, you reckon yourselves
Dr. Harris: to be dead
Dr. Kinley: to be dead, indeed, unto sin.
Dr. Harris: but alive unto God
Dr. Kinley: but alive unto Christ
Dr. Harris: our Lord
Dr. Kinley: the Lord. Listen here. Abraham, God told Abraham to offer up Isaac. And Abraham, so says Paul in the 11th chapter of Hebrews, Paul says that Abraham did offer up. Somebody says, 'well he was going to, but he caught the ram in the thicket.' No, I beg your pardon. That didn't happen that way. In his mind, before he got to the ram in the thickets. In his mind. He accounted in his mind, just like you are supposed to account, in your mind. Just like the Jews was. You account. Don't go do it, but account it in your mind. Reckon yourselves. Likewise, Abraham accounted in his mind, that God had told him to offer him up. As far as Abraham was concerned he was a goner, because he offered him up. Accounting in his mind that God was able to raise him from the dead, that his posterity and his seed might sojourn. But Paul, Paul said he did offer him up. It was executed in his mind. And just like I'm telling you about this execution in your mind. You account it.
Now here's why I said it. Let me say this to you Wallace. Now in the second chapter of Colossians folks, don't be impatient with me, in the second chapter of Colossians. Now you, everybody, and I'm talking about everybody, and when I say everybody, I do mean everybody. Everybody was circumcised by the circumcision of Messiah.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Everybody was baptized in the water by His baptism. Everybody. That's you too. Even the unborn generations. And you say that The Church is the Body of Christ. Is that what you say? And if the church is the body of Christ, this is physical back here and this is His physical body here. So you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. Wherein, in Colossians, you are also buried by baptism with Him. Wherein also you are risen with Him. Look, no hands. No, no hands. Got baptized, all of it, by Him. He's the savior. All of the works and everything is fulfilled, is done. All the natural, all the literal, all the carnal, all the physical, all the natural. Behold, you despised, wonder and perish, I'll work a work in your days that you shall not believe, though a man... He did all of the work, just like God did all the work in making all the necessary preparations for Adam after He took him out of the ground and put him in the Garden of Eden. The trees was in fruition. He had something to eat. God did all the work. He created and everything
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(also known as: COME ON UP, JOHN)
and put everything there. And we are created anew in Christ Jesus. What the hypocrite preachers they can't see nothing spiritual. They can't see that the literal pointed to the spiritual. That's the reason why Dr. Harris said to you all that might be known, known what? Romans 1:19, 20. All that might be known of everything you wanna know, it don't make no difference what it is you that you wanna know. All that may be known of God, it's possible for you to know, for God manifested, He showed it unto them. He showed it unto them in visions and revelations. Everything, showed Moses clear on into Omega, and He took John on the Isle of Patmos and He showed him clear on back into Alpha. It's hard for you to know everything. And Paul said in the second chapter of 1 Corinthians, said the spirit searches all things, yea the deep things of God. ____ ____ ____. You wanna know anything about the thing you ask me, because I been called up there and heard things almost impossible for a man to utter, but I'll give it to you some kinda way and if I can't do it one way, I'll do it another. Yes indeed, down here we know all the answers. We know what's in heaven. We know all about it. We know what's in the earth. We know what's in you. We know what's in everything. We got all the answers to all the questions, all the esoteric secrets, those that are hidden secrets ____ become ____. Yes indeedy. Its not old me, it's my Father in me that doeth the works. And when I tell you there'll be an earthquake, or when I tell you that Pope John 23 had to go the day that he had to go, had to go. And when I told you about these various different things, even Roosevelt when he had to go. I told you about John F. Kennedy when he had... I've known everything! I know everything and I know everybody, I've been everywhere, and I see everything ____ both in heaven and earth. And so you wanna know anything about my Father back here, just ask me, and I can tell you all about it. Let's go home.
(STUDENT BODY LAUGHS AND APPLAUDS)
END OF TAPE
Page 16
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by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Springfield, Ohio
audio cassette recording received from Pauline Stinger
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 67 GDR
transcribed by Steve LaPorte
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
(PREVIOUS SPEAKER: SOMEONE IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO)
Dr. Kinley: ... run these things down through just like it was. And if you understood why, he (PREVIOUS SPEAKER) gave Yahweh all the glory and the honor.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now there's a few things that I'd like to mention to you. I think it's necessary, now we have wrote a book and we have sent it all over the world. And I'm sure that people everywhere in the world are confused even at the correct name of the heavenly Father. But now the book that we wrote has just as much so ____ ____ so about the body. What we wanna do is try to bring to you a few things that might open up your understanding, to such an extent that you will be benefitted. Now I hope everybody can hear me in the back. Can you hear me in the back, back there?
Student Body: We can hear alright.
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Dr. Kinley: Now if you notice, we're always saying Yahshua the Messiah started with Moses. ____ ____ ____. A lot of people don't know the reason for Him starting with Moses. Well now we wanna talk about just that.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: We're gonna tell you why He started with Moses. Now not withstanding, now that He was back there with Moses and He said that Moses wrote of Him. Is, is that correct?
Student Body: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you notice He didn't say that any of the rest of 'em back there at that time wrote of Him.
Student Body: Right, that's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now Enoch was a prophet, seventh from Adam. And he prophesied too, ____ Israel. And he spoke about the coming of 10,000 of His sons. Enoch, the seventh from Adam. That was in the Ante-Diluvian Age. Noah, he preached 120 years, but He didn't start with Enoch or Noah. And Adam was formed ____ ____ ____. Adam, if you look at the third chapter of Luke and the last verse, you find that Adam was a son of Yahweh too, but He didn't start with them. Now the reason why He didn't start with them was because they didn't write anything. Now they saw a vision. Moses did, Enoch saw a vision, Noah saw a vision, but they didn't write anything. So if they don't write nothing, why it's because that the Holy Spirit didn't reveal anything to them, them who, that is they could write about it; in other words they didn't have any permission to write. And not only that, now you can go down here on the market and you can find the book of Abraham. Now Abraham never wrote nothing. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now this all comes out of a misunderstanding. People are trying to say something great. They wanna make a name for themselves. They wanna be important. So they'll go to any lengths to write about something to try to make somebody think... And then again too, I wanna mention this to you: you don't see my picture on nothing I ever wrote.
Student Body: Right, that's right.
Dr. Kinley: No, you won't find my picture in nothing. They're forbidden to even put it in the book because I don't want nobody to think that I think I'm that all that important. And I know I'm not that beautiful. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now...
(BREAK IN TAPE, BUT HE CONTINUES ALONG THE SAME LINE)
Dr. Kinley: ... when you, you have a whole lotta controversy about it, a whole lotta books written on it, a whole lotta said about it, in school and what not, but I'm here to tell you that this school is not my doing at all, it's Yahweh's. And just to tell you the honest truth about it, He founded, Yahweh founded this school.
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Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: He might have done it through me and you and the other fellow but He's the actual founder of it. Now the gospel of the Kingdom must be preached in this Age. Now He didn't.., He started with Moses. Now this is the Creator. Then there's something else I wanna tell you about that too. Look at the 3rd Chapter of, of Philippians, I believe it is and the fifth verse.
Reader: Circumcised the eighth day
Dr. Kinley: No, the third chapter of Titus I believe it is.
Reader: Yeah. Not by works of righteousness
Dr. Kinley: That, that's correct.
Reader: Which we have done
Dr. Kinley: Now it's not by works of righteousness which we have done Reader: But according to His mercy
Dr. Kinley: But according to His mercy
Reader: He saved us
Dr. Kinley: He saved us
Reader: By the washing of regeneration
Dr. Kinley: By the washing of regeneration
Reader: And the renewing of the Holy Spirit
Dr. Kinley: And the renewing of the Holy Spirit
Reader: Which He shed on us abundantly
Dr. Kinley: Which He shed on us abundantly
Reader: Through Yahshua
Dr. Kinley: Through Yahshua the Messiah who was the Son of Yahweh. Now here's what I'm trying to say and here's the reason why we say it. He, now he is is telling you about regeneration. Now there had to be a generation. Now this is a generation or the creation of the heavens and the earth, the physical. That's the generation of it. Now then there's a degeneration: now that means a coming down. Then there's a regeneration: that means taking it back, created a new (anew?) in Yahshua the Messiah. Now the reason why I brought that up is on this account: Adam was the Son of Yahweh and Yahweh was manifested in him, in that first man Adam. And he partaken of the fruit of that tree for his wife's sake. Now why did I say that? Look at Romans 5:14 and then you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm gonna get on down to business here, but I want you to understand a few things.
Reader: Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses
Dr. Kinley: Now, nevertheless... Now we got the first man on earth. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses
Reader: Even over them that had not sinned
Dr. Kinley: Even over them that had not sinned
Reader: After the similitude of Adam's transgression
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Dr. Kinley: After the similitude of Adam's transgression. Now just a minute. Now over here in Paul's writings to Timothy, he says that Adam was not in the transgression, but the woman being deceived was in it. Now the use of words and the employment of words by the translators. Often times you'd run into something like that and then you'd get confused. Unless you understand ____ the flesh and know something about the purpose. But now often times that one statement in a.., one statement in Hebrew will mean one thing in one place and in another place it will mean another. So you have to have understanding in order to be able to interpret correctly. Give you an example: Solomon said one generation goes and another comes but the earth abideth forever. Now Jehovah's Witnesses are running around saying that the earth is gonna abide this way forever. Now when you look over here in the 24th chapter of Matthew, you'll find that Yahshua the Messiah said heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away. John on the Isle of Patmos said he saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth was passed away. Well now what are you supposed to do when you run into something like that and you don't understand what it's all about. You just skip on over it. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And then, then nobody discovers your ignorance. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) See that now? Well, we don't do that. We understand what it is all about. Now Genesis 8:22 says this, while the earth remains, seed time and harvest, day and night, summer and winter shall not pass. It'll be just a constant movement, that earth, just like the sun rising and the sun setting, as long as the earth remains, but now there's gonna come a time when it won't remain. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now how about that too? Then Yahweh said He would make all things new. What the Jehovah Witness' or any body (anybody?) else says he's just up there lying. Now the here's why I'm bringing this up. I'm trying to.., I thought tonight that I would try to show you something about your Bible, how it was written, so that you could get some understanding about it. Now you notice now, what we had here to begin, beginning with Moses that's in Luke you'll find that, beginning at Moses... Suppose you read that.
Reader: Luke 24:25
Dr. Kinley: Luke 24:25. Now hurry up now, because time is flying and I've got a lot of ground to cover.
Reader: Then He said unto them, oh fools and slow
Dr. Kinley: Then He said unto them, oh fools and slow of heart
Reader: To believe all that the prophets had told you
Dr. Kinley: Believe all... Now it just didn't say Moses, believe all that the prophets. Enoch was a prophet, I showed you that. Noah too preached. And Abraham and on down, they preached. Alright.
Reader: Ought not the Messiah to have suffered these things
Dr. Kinley: Now, ought not the Messiah to have suffered these things
Reader: And to enter into His glory
Dr. Kinley: And to enter into His glory
Reader: And beginning at Moses
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Dr. Kinley: Now at.., and beginning at Moses. Now that's where He started at. Now remember this is the Creator. Now don't go in there and stumble around on that and make no mess out of it. That's what you got. You got the Creator of the heavens and the earth. And beginning at Moses.
Reader: And all the prophets
Dr. Kinley: And all of the prophets
Reader: He expounded unto them
Dr. Kinley: He expounded unto them
Reader: In all the scriptures
Dr. Kinley: In all the scriptures
Reader: The things concerning Himself
Dr. Kinley: The things concerning Himself. Now I want you to go to Exodus, the 24th chapter and the 16th verse. But before you go there, to the 16th verse, read the first two or three verses of the 24th chapter of Exodus.
Reader: And He said unto Moses
Dr. Kinley: And He said unto Moses
Reader: Come up unto Yahweh
Dr. Kinley: Come up unto Yahweh
Reader: Thou and Aaron
Dr. Kinley: Thou and Aaron
Reader: Nadab and Abihu
Dr. Kinley: Nadab and Abihu
Reader: And seventy of the elders of Israel
Dr. Kinley: And seventy of the elders of Israel
Reader: And worship ye afar off
Dr. Kinley: And worship ye afar off
Reader: And Moses alone
Dr. Kinley: And Moses alone
Reader: Shall come near Yahweh
Dr. Kinley: Shall come near Yahweh
Reader: But they shall not come nigh
Dr. Kinley: But they shall not come nigh
Reader: Neither shall the people go up with him
Dr. Kinley: Neither shall the people go up with him. Now please read down.
Reader: And the glory of Yahweh abode upon Mount Sinai
Dr. Kinley: And the glory of Yahweh abode upon Mount Sinai
Reader: And the cloud covered it six days
Dr. Kinley: And the cloud covered it six days
Reader: Colon
Dr. Kinley: Colon
Reader: And the seventh day
Dr. Kinley: And the seventh day
Reader: He called unto Moses out of the midst
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Dr. Kinley: Now you don't see a thing there about that. You don't see a thing about what happened. And that colon indicates that there's something left out. Now then this is, this is what you have to do. I want you to repeat what you just said.
Reader: And the glory of Yahweh abode upon Mount Sinai and the cloud covered it six days
Dr. Kinley: And the cloud covered it six days
Reader: Colon
Dr. Kinley: Colon
Reader: And the seventh day
Dr. Kinley: And the seventh day
Reader: He called unto Moses
Dr. Kinley: He called unto Moses
Reader: Out of the midst of the cloud
Dr. Kinley: Out of the midst of the cloud. Now I want you to go over to Genesis 1:1. Now this is what is left out. And this ____ right what you're getting to read now. ____ this over in Exodus. And Moses
(BREAK IN TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: and put it over here in the, in the beginning. Now listen folks be careful now. This is why Yahshua started with Moses. Now you don't find a thing about where Enoch wrote anything or Adam wrote anything about the creation of heaven and earth. Abraham never wrote a thing about it, the creation of heaven and earth. You follow now? Well why didn't he write something about it, because he didn't see nothing about it. Well why didn't he see nothing about it, cause He didn't reveal anything about it. Alright I have, I'll have another writing I wanna mention to you, before you go any further with that. We gonna come right back to it. I believe it's the 10th chapter of Joshua and about the 13th verse. Now here's another ____, ____.
Reader: 12th verse. Then spake Joshua to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Um hum.
Reader: And he said in the sight of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Um, hum.
Reader: Sun stand thou still upon Gibeon
Dr. Kinley: Um, hum.
Reader: and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon
Dr. Kinley: Um, hum.
Reader: And the sun stood still
Dr. Kinley: Um hum, and the sun stood still
Reader: And the moon stayed
Dr. Kinley: And the moon stayed
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Reader: Until the people had avenged themselves
Dr. Kinley: Vengeance. The people had avenged themselves
Reader: Is not this written in the Book of Jasher
Dr. Kinley: Is not this written in the Book of, the Book of Jasher? Now you can go down to the book.., into the store and fool around on that one. But now this Book of Jasher, Moses.., Moses didn't write that one, and didn't none of the prophets write that one. The Boss wrote that one Himself. Now look and listen. Now you're talking about the sun and the moon standing still. Now the sun, if Joshua had not been the Son.., and this is the first time that the sun and the moon hearkened to the voice of a man. Now it had to be the same Man that created 'em? It had to have been the Creator standing there in... It would not have hearkened unto Him.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: You see that one. And is not this written in the Book of Jasher? Now you've heard this said, there's no such thing as a J in no language at all until about the 17th century. Wasn't in the Hebrew language and it wasn't in no language, so it could not have been called the Book, the Book of Jasher. How about that? Had you thought about that? Now that J, that's a Y. Now let me show you this. Now you have a tribe, one of the tribes here A S H E R. Y A H S H E R. Y A H, not a J. The Book of Yasher. Always look in the margin of the translators, those of you that have a King James version of the Bible, and see what that really does mean there. That means the Book of the Upright. Now that Book of the Upright, Yahweh written that Book. Now I see, I see, I've got to make a.., right there and I'm able to confuse you in what you think. But, as far as we go with it and we'll take it up some other time. I'm, I'm sure I'll finish it. Now Yahweh written that Book. Now let's go to the 32nd chapter of Exodus and the 31st and 32nd verse. Now what we're after is, were after the Book of Jasher.
Reader: 31st verse.
Dr. Kinley: Or the Book of the Upright. Now here's something else I want you to understand. I want you to know this. We got a song out, "Is my name written there?" Yes, your name is written there, aliases and all. Yahweh knows every last one of you I mean just like you, just like ____ ____ ____ know. I don't know whether anybody ever told you that before or not. You notice that He spake to Moses at the burning bush, He called him Moses, Moses. And He told Moses that He was the Elohim of his father, Amram. And then He told him of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Is that right?
Student Body: Yeah.
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Dr. Kinley: Now here's something that we leave out for the most part and the fact of the matter is we over look it. He also told.., since we spoke of Him talking to Moses at the burning bush and Moses went through giving those excuses for not going down, down here in Egypt. He told... Now look, now here's what we're talking about, we're talking about Yahweh knowing your name and Him writing it in the Book, not the one Moses wrote, but the Book of the Upright. And your name is there, your record and everything is there. Now that's what we're talking about. And we're talking about and trying to show you that Yahweh knows your name. Now we showed you He spoke to Moses and called him by name. And He told him that He was the Elohim of his father, that's Amram. And then He said of Isaac, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Meaning that He knew Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And Moses had to complain about having an impediment of speech. He found out that He knew Aaron also.
Student Body: Right. (LAUGHS)
Dr. Kinley: Cause He told him that He was gonna give him a... Now here you find out He knows his brother Aaron. He almost knows everybody. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now these are some things you need to know. Now the 32nd chapter, see what He told Moses there.
Reader: And Moses returned unto Yahweh and said
Dr. Kinley: And Moses returned to Yahweh and said
Reader: Oh this people have sinned a great sin and have
Dr. Kinley: Now that's when they builded the golden calf. And Moses come down out of the mountain with the tables of stone and which he threw down there, he found they had builded a golden calf. Right there. And he threw down those tables of stone. And he said to them, Yahweh had spoke to them and give them the commandments and told them that they shouldn't make anything in the likeness of anything in the heavens or in the earth or under the earth. Now they had heard Him say that. And they said, 'all that you say, we will do. We just don't want you to speak to us no more like that.' So they wanted Moses to speak to Him. They were frightened, even Moses was frightened. I don't want you to think that he wasn't, he was. Alright now, Moses tells them what?
Reader: And have made them
Dr. Kinley: I said repeat what you just, get the continuity of thought there.
Reader: And Moses returned unto Yahweh and said
Dr. Kinley: And Moses returned unto Yahweh and said
Reader: Oh this people hath sinned a great sin
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Dr. Kinley: Now he said the people had sinned a great sin in that they had took their earrings and other jewelry and builded that golden calf. Alright, and they were worshiping (worshipping?) and rejoicing over the thing., Alright now read on. Now Moses said now, you sinned or you have sinned a great sin
Reader: And have made them idols of gold
Dr. Kinley: And have made them idols of gold
Reader: Yet now
Dr. Kinley: Yet now
Reader: If thou wilt forgive their sins
Dr. Kinley: Now if thou wilt forgive their sins
Reader: And if not
Dr. Kinley: And if you won't forgive their sins
Reader: Blot me I pray thee
Dr. Kinley: Blot me I pray thee
Reader: Out of thy Book
Dr. Kinley: Out of thy Book
Reader: Which thou hast written
Dr. Kinley: Out of the Book of the Yasher, which He had written. Now Moses, when he was up in the mountain, he saw that Book, that was the Word. He saw that Book and that's where everything comes from, out of that Book, not that Moses wrote, but that Yahweh had written. Did you get that?
Student Body: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kinley: You follow that? Now Moses had seen his name in the Book. That's what I'm trying to tell you. When he was up in the mountain he saw his name in the Book which Yahweh had written and he hadn't wrote a thing yet about it. He wrote about the tables of stone when he went up into the mount but he hadn't wrote anything about the creation. You follow now?
Student Body: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: Now these things are deep, they are things you need to know. You need to realize this. And this is the great power and the infinity and the divine intelligence, the wisdom, the understanding of Yahweh.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: That He knows this. Now he said then if you won't forgive their sins for building this golden calf and you have told 'em not to make anything in the likeness of anything that was in the heavens above and the earth beneath, Moses said, then blot me out of your Book, the Book of Yasher, which Yahweh had written. It wasn't gonna be no misunderstanding and no interpolations and none of that and no corrections and no modifications and revisions in that One, that Book which He had written. It had Moses' name, everybody's name in it. Now in order to show you that, which I don't have time to do, then you would have to go back. Moses seen his name and then Moses wrote the pedigrees and
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genealogies from Adam on down to himself, and they was encouched in that book. Now since you read that, finish reading what you have read there. Blot me out of thy book which thou hast written.
Reader: And Yahweh said unto Moses
Dr. Kinley: And now Yahweh said unto Moses
(BREAK IN TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: Now listen here, listen folks. Trying to put something over on someone else and blame somebody else for your troubles.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now Yahweh don't ____ that. And then He's not holding someone else responsible, He's holding you responsible, from the age of accountability. Then we'll give you something on that. When Yahshua was 12 years old He went up there to the Temple and confounded the doctors and the lawyers. So around 12 years old you are accountable. Now listen, repeat what you just read.
Reader: And Yahweh said unto Moses
Dr. Kinley: And Yahweh said unto Moses
Reader: Whosoever hath sinned against me
Dr. Kinley: Now it don't make no difference whether it's mama, papa, the children, or who... Whosoever sinned against me
Reader: Him will I blot out of my book
Dr. Kinley: Him. That's the one that's gonna be blotted out. Him will I blot out of the Book.., which you have in your church registry?
Student Body: No, no, no. (LAUGHS)
Dr. Kinley: You follow now? See that now? Which you have enrolled or matriculated in your books that you have written, on your honor rolls, your church roll? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Him will I blot out of my Book, which I have written, which Yahweh said He had written and that's the Book of the Upright. Him will I blot out on My Book, which I have written, which Yahweh said He had written. And that's the Book of the Upright. Now He said He was gonna blot him out. Now the 20th chapter of Revelations and the 12th verse. And let's read it quick and fast. Let's see what happens.
Reader: And I saw the dead
Dr. Kinley: And I saw the dead
Reader: Small and great
Dr. Kinley: Small and great
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Reader: Stand before Yahweh
Dr. Kinley: Stand before Yahweh
Reader: And the books were opened
Dr. Kinley: And the book. Huh?
Reader: Books, and the books were opened.
Dr. Kinley: Is that plural or singular?
Reader: Plural.
Dr. Kinley: Plural, I just want you to see that the whole thing, all of it, that Moses wrote and everything right there plain. I'm talking about Moses now. The books was opened. The law and the prophets, the books was opened and then what?
Reader: And another book
Dr. Kinley: Oh, now wait just a minute, that, that other book which Moses didn't write. ____ ____ You follow now? And another book. Alright read on.
Reader: Which is the book of life
Dr. Kinley: Now that is the Book of Life. That is the Book of Life.____ ____ ____ ____ ____. Another book that Moses wrote. Now listen here, didn't no preacher open it.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now is that clear to you? Do you understand what I said? Now I don't want nobody walking out of here tonight and say, 'well I didn't understand what he said. I ain't able to figure out what he said.' I said that no preacher never opened it. Yahweh said, behold I have set before you an open door. Now here's the preacher and Revelation Baptist Church on Saint John's Street in Cincinnati, preacher down there tried to preach against what we teach. Saint John's Church, Baptist Church, said, 'now open the doors of this church.' Hold up his hands and just fell dead right there in the pulpit. Ask Doctor Harris and them about that ____ ____. You see that? Alright read on.
Reader: And another book was opened
Dr. Kinley: And another book was opened. We just, just repeating, repeat what he read.
Reader: Which is the book of life
Dr. Kinley: Which is the book of life
Reader: And the dead were judged
Dr. Kinley: And the dead were judged
Reader: Out of those things which were written in the book
Dr. Kinley: And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the book.
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Reader: According to their works
Dr. Kinley: According to their works. Alright read on.
Reader: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it
Dr. Kinley: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it
Reader: And death and Sheol
Dr. Kinley: And death and Hell or Sheol
Reader: Delivered up the dead which were in them
Dr. Kinley: Delivered up the dead which were in them
Reader: And they were judged every man
Dr. Kinley: And they were judged every man
Reader: According to their works
Dr. Kinley: According to their works
Reader: And death and hell were cast into the lake
Dr. Kinley: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire
Reader: This is the second death
Dr. Kinley: That's the second death
Reader: And
Dr. Kinley: Now, now, not the second resurrection, but the second death. Ain't gonna be no second resurrection. He said, 'I am the resurrection,' not resurrections. Alright read on.
Reader: And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire this is the second death
Dr. Kinley: This is the second death
Reader: And
Dr. Kinley: And
Reader: Whosoever will not
Dr. Kinley: And. Hold it now, I want you to watch what I'm talking about and whosoever sinned against Me him will I blot out of My Book which I have written. And whomsoever
Reader: Was not found
Dr. Kinley: Not found
Reader: Written in the book of life
Dr. Kinley: Not found in the book
Reader: written in the
Dr. Kinley: written in the book
Reader: Was cast into the lake
Dr. Kinley: Was cast in the Lake. Yahweh done blotted him out. You, you still have him on your church rolls, but Yahweh done blotted him out.
Student Body: Alright.
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Dr. Kinley: You running around talking about I'm a this and I'm a that and I'm a the other and Yahweh blotted him out of the Book, And sometimes you wonder why it is that so and so, so and so don't come out of, from of this junk and foolishness that there is. Yahweh done blotted him out. And now that Book which He had written, why then Yahweh just done blot him, blotted him out. But his name, everybody's name was in it. Everybody that's ever to appear in this world, Yahweh has some record of it, knows all about 'em, and whoever it is that sinned against Him, then He blots him out of the Book, which He has written. And whomsoever is not found in the book was cast into the Lake of Fire. Now let me go back. I just wanted to show you about this writing in these books. Now I just wanted to show you that Moses and the prophets wrote the books of the prophets and Yahweh wrote the Book of the Upright. And now we're down here to the point where we want to make it clear to you that in this 16th verse, he read that Moses goes up into the mount and the cloud covered the mountain six days. Now this is the first chapter of Genesis. Now you have a colon, you have a colon mark right there in the 16th chapter or the 16th verse of the 24th chapter, the 24th verse. Is that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen, this has got to be proven. It just can't go on this way. It has to be proven. Now then you have to have... this is Exodus 24:16 and here it's written here, same one as Revelation 10:4. Read that after you read whatever you got.
Reader: When the seven thunders had uttered their voices
Dr. Kinley: Now the seven thunders had uttered their voices. Now Moses hears Him thunder His voice, 'let there be light,' and there was light. And the evening and the morning was the first day. And he hears Him on the second day, 'let the..,' thunder of His voice. The Seven Thunders, the seven days do appear, Seven Thunders. Now you get thunder out of a cloud.
Student Body: Right, alright.
Dr. Kinley: I just want to point that out to you. You get thunder out of a cloud. Now I'm going back to Genesis.
Reader: In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and earth
Dr. Kinley: Now wait just a minute, now you don't have no cloud, so you can't start in Genesis.
Student Body: No. That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Don't have no cloud which is synonymous to your brain. You don't have no ears to hear with and you don't have no eyes to see with, and fact of the matter is you don't have no head.
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Student Body: That's right. Yes sir.
Dr. Kinley: Now you see why you can't start in Genesis? Cause you don't have no cloud. Now you have a cloud over here in Exodus and you have a cloud over there in Revelations. You follow it now? Now how about that? Now then here comes somebody, they wanna know all about it, gonna write all about it and they, they ain't got no, ain't got no head, ain't got no eyes to see with, no ears to hear with. You see what I'm talking about? Now look, John said he was on the Isle of Patmos on the seventh day. Now what I'm talking about is how your Book is put together.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: He was there on the seventh day; or in other words he was there on the Sabbath. Now this is deep and it's hard but I do wanna take time and... And look, we only got ten minutes here and I wanna take time enough to put this together like.., so you pay strict attention. Now you're in Genesis. Now you got Exodus where the cloud covered the top of a mountain in the 16th verse, and you got a colon there and the cloud covered the mountain six days, colon. Then on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. Is that somewheres near right?
Student Body: Right, that's right.
Dr. Kinley: You say that's somewheres near right? Now look, he said the seventh day He called unto Moses. Now you go down and read right straight through, right straight through Genesis through the seventh day and it'll bring you right back to that same seventh day that you got here in Exodus. And he showed you how.., what happened on the seventh day why He sanctified it and He rested. That's that same seventh day that you got here in Exodus. Now you had the vision of Moses there. Now then after he come down to that vision and down to that seventh day in the Genesis, now pay attention, pay attention, he stopped right there. He don't write on and finish up the book of Genesis. Stopped right there. Then what is he gonna do? What's gonna happen next and how do you know? Now then this is what happens next. Now he was in the 24th chapter. Now go on over to the 25th chapter. Now we done stopped in Genesis now. Got the brakes on. Got to a stop sign. He can't write nothing about no pedigrees and genealogies, he never saw anything at that time. He's just talking about the generation of the heaven and the earth in that vision at that time. That's the second trip he was in the mount. And that's as far as you go with it, the creation of the heaven and earth and bringing down to the seventh day or the Sabbath and stopped right there.
(BREAK IN TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: Then you come back over here to Exodus. Then what are you gonna do with that?
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SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Start reading the 25th chapter.
Reader: And Yahweh spake unto Moses saying
Dr. Kinley: And Yahweh spake unto Moses
Reader: Speak unto the children of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Speak unto the children of Israel
Reader: That they bring me an offering
Dr. Kinley: That they bring me an offering
Reader: Of every man that giveth it willingly
Dr. Kinley: Of every man that giveth it willingly
Reader: You shall take my offering
Dr. Kinley: Um hum and this
Reader: And this is the offering that you shall take of them, gold and silver and brass
Dr. Kinley: Now, now He's telling him... Now listen folks let me make it real good and clear, Yahweh is building the greater and more perfect tabernacle and Moses is seeing it in a vision and it took him seven days to see it, while the sun is rising and setting, and this is in the realm of eternity and not in time. You see that now? Now since Yahweh created, listen now, since Yahweh created the greater and more perfect tabernacle and stopped and rested on the seventh day. Now when He tells Moses, 'now you speak to the children of Israel and tell them to bring me something, so you can make a tabernacle.' That's why He had to make the greater and more perfect tabernacle first. He wouldn't dare ask Moses to make a tabernacle without Him making one first.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: Do you see that now?
Student Body: Yes. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)
Dr. Kinley: The greater and more perfect tabernacle. Now you speak to them and out of this stuff that they took from the Egyptians and brought up here, then you tell them to bring me an offering, cause you're gonna make a tabernacle out of the stuff you brought up, just like I made a tabernacle out of the stuff back here.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: Now you understand what I'm talking about?
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Student Body: (CLAP) Yes, yes. Alright.
Dr. Kinley: So, now I have the first seven days of that vision, seeing the vision of the greater and more perfect tabernacle, then the next 33 days of the 40 days, Yahweh was showing him about the tabernacle that He told him to bring an offering to build. Now that's the seven days and the 33 more days, that's the total that length of time when he was in the mountain the second time. Then how about that?
Student Body: Alright, (LAUGH) That's alright.
(END OF TAPE)
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12) 1967: EXPLANATION OF HEBREWS 1:1
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
1 100 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 67 H
transcribed by Shannan Brewster
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
Moderator: ... founder and dean of the school, Dr. Henry C. Kinley. Dr. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you. I'm always happy and glad to be here. I feel, as David said ____ speaking, I was glad when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord. He was glad. Then I remembered another expression of David's. He said he never understood until he went in the sanctuary. And neither are you. I said you were. You're supposed to come on in the sanctuary, it's always good. Now there's where all the treasures of wisdom, and knowledge and everything is hid, is within the sanctuary.
Now I wanna tell you some things today. And I thought about as Dr. Roland McCoy was speaking. Now in as much so as you see how he went about that to prove to you the things that he said. Now I want you to know that everybody.., now it just don't make no difference. Now your color won't fix it. And where you come from, it won't fix it. Your background will not fix it, irrespected and regardless to all that. What your progenitors and ancestors believed, that will not fix it. Now what will fix it is one thing. And that is this: is when you come back here, take that purpose from alpha to omega, from beginning to end, from cosmology to eschatology, that means from origin or from start to finish. Now here, and here's what it does: now it brings everybody from everywhere, all races, all nations, all kindreds, and all peoples, everybody see eye to eye and face to face and just about all speak the same thing; joined, perfectly joined together in the same spirit and there's no friction, there's no divisions among you. But as long as you don't see that there can't be nothing else but division. You can't help yourself from being a skeptic. Until you see what it's all about and how it works and how it goes together, there's nothing else for you to be.
Now there's another one in this job, in this business, too. And that is Satan. That's this Mystery of Iniquity. Now his business is to keep you from seeing. It's to blind your eyes and blind your mind so that you won't see; in other words, he tries to keep you from seeing. And all the time, listen, all the time, all along, what Satan tries to make you believe, what he wants you to believe is that he is God. Now if he just wanted you to believe that much, and no more, that wouldn't be quite so bad, but he wants to exalt himself above all that is worshiped or all that
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is called God so that he as God has the keys to kingdom. Everything, angels, and authorities, and powers, and everything being made subject unto him. Now that's what's going on in the world. Those are.., that's that negative and that positive going on. Now if he don't get you on one gimmick, he'll get you on another, because he doesn't, he don't understand this secret, how it's put together like this. It's hid from him. And it's, it's hid from all the wise and the smart boys. You know, a lotta people like to boast about their background, and all that kinda thing. Well that won't work in this thing. Your background is no good. Nobody ain't reckoning nothing like that. It's not a flesh and blood thing, it's something else. What we're after now is to find out where everything come from, and where everything is going. Somebody said, 'Well I don't think.' Yeah, you're going too. Get the point? You never seen, you never seen anybody, you never seen a preacher in your life but what didn't say that he was right. Did you?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Now, you got out here in the streets. I'm gonna bring this thing down front. You got out here in the world, you got the various different churches, church organizations, various different ministers preaching different things. One's saying one thing about the same thing, and another's saying another thing about the same thing. Did I express that so you could understand it. And another one over here he says something else about it. And another one over here he says something else. Now that's how you got all your cults and all your creeds. And when you get through the whole entire thing, go through all the whole groups, you won't find even... Listen here to me, let me put this in there too. Even right in the same organization, you'll find 'em right in that same organization that disagrees with one another. Whatever organization that is. If it's the Baptists, you'll find 'em right in the Baptist Church disagreeing with one another, right in that same group. You find 'em in the Roman Catholic Church disagreeing with one another. You find 'em in the so called Holiness Churches disagreeing with one another. In the best you got to offer, you find it just that way. Well why? The question is why? Something wrong some where. But whenever you come through this school, the baby and everybody else will say the same thing. Why? Because they're all looking at the same thing.
Now look, if you wanna talk about Noah's Ark, talk about it from a Biblical point-of-view. Now we won't argue about it. There wasn't but just one door and just one window in that ark. Now it don't make no difference where you come from that's all you can get in it. You understand, Bishop?
Bishop Short: That's a fact.
Dr. Kinley: It just don't make no difference. That's all that Gabriel and Michael can get in it. There ain't no, there ain't no patch up, there ain't no fix nor nothing to it, you just can't get but the one door and one window in it. Now there oughta be some reason for it. Well now the reason why there isn't but one door in it, because that one door represents that one what?
Student Body: Way.
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12) 1967: Explanation of Hebrews 1:1.
Dr. Kinley: Now that's all there is to it. And listen, everybody that got saved from the flood had to go in that one door. All them that didn't go in that one door were drowned. Now that's all there is to that. There's no argument to it. Get the point? There's no argument. There isn't but one God. Messiah said, 'I am the way. I am the truth,' not truths, not ways. I don't when people are gonna get off of truths and ways. Pilate says, 'What are..?' 'That's me, I'm the truth, I'm the way, I'm the life.' You be here in the last few meetings, you been hearing me say, if you got any questions, see me, ask me about it. Is that what you been hearing me say? I say I've been everywhere, know everything. Ask me. Now I don't mean as a man. I don't mean as a man. I mean that my father, just like Dr. Roland said, He was the Law Himself incarnate. Maybe we better read a little about that, how about that? 12th chapter of Hebrews, verse one. First chapter of Hebrews and verse 1. Take the first chapter and the first, begin at the first verse.
Reader: Wherefore
Dr. Kinley: Now look here, when you start to read Hebrews, don't, don't churn it all up with the rest of the epistles. Always somebody running references, cause everything is worked out with the Hebrews, the Gentiles, they didn't know nothing about it. Get the point? So now, Paul is talking to... Somebody said, 'well Paul is a...' They said this to me too, said now, 'now you can't prove that Paul is the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, the author is unknown.' Now I wanna tell you that that's not so. Now you got the same author of the epistle to Hebrews as you have to the Romans or to Peter, or anybody else. Same author. Moses, is to that matter, Daniel, you got the same author, and He is known. Get the point? Isn't He? Authored the whole entire thing, and the finisher. How am I doing? Alright, Am I doing alright?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Alright. First chapter and the first verse.
Reader: Wherefore
Another Reader: God at sundry times.
Dr. Kinley: God. I don't like that. Because that is the place where we are having some of our troubles at. Did you notice that man asked me a question here the other night. He couldn't understand about the, what is meant by, 'Let us, let us make man.' He couldn't understand that. The world hasn't understood it yet. Now anytime you start, and you never seen nobody in your life, you never seen no preachers, in no organization, but what he didn't get up and just say, "God." Now that don't spell he knows anything about it at all. Get it now. Don't spell a thing. Any skeptic, atheist, agnostic, infidel, liar, hypocrite, backbiter, you name it, can get up and say that. Don't, that don't spell he knows anything about it. Listen at me, even the devil, that's where the problem is. Even the devil knows about God as you're talking it, and he fears and he trembles. So you just saying God, that don't mean a thing.
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Now when they wrote this book, that you got your King James Version, now you can get confused and messed up in all fashions. Suppose you try reading that out of that, of that, that ____.
Mary Gross: Elohim, who at sundry times
Dr. Kinley: Now Elohim, who at sundry times. Now what is the difference? Now see you got here in, in the Hebrews, I mean, I mean you got in the King James Version, you got, 'God, who at sundry times, spake unto us.' Now everybody comes along and say that and still that question in the mind: who's the us and the we? And even often times people say, look here, Paul put it this way, 'Gods many, Lords many.' Now the question now, which was these Gods you talking about. See the point? And that's how we get into all our troubles about this, you call it the Godhead. And you got it all separated and divided up and all fixed up. Then Christendoom has said, 'Well,' listen, you have to pay attention to what I'm talking about. No, no, no, no. You've been nearly two thousand years and you haven't learned it out there yet, so don't say that our pastor taught it. Get the point? Always somebody wants to jump up, and say, 'Well we been taught all of this and that's, that's the way they teach over to our church.' Well you're not in church, for your information, now. You're in school and in school you're supposed to be learning about all the errors and mistakes that you and your pastor made over yonder.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Williams that's your business here. Now you got Elohim. Elohim, who in sundry times. Well I'm not, I'm still not satisfied with it. Genesis one and one. Let's see if we can't get straightened out. And you might stop by Genesis 1:26 too. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Then we can get, then we can get straightened out. Now this is important, Freddy it's important. It it wasn't important, I wouldn't stop to take up the time to fool with it. I'd go on up on cloud nine. But let's let it be the dew on the ground, for awhile. Alright. Now you got Exodus 24:9 and 10. Now before we're gonna understand anything about what we're reading about over here in Hebrews, we're gonna have to find out about this thing. Said now, where you got there where you started, said, 'God, who at sundry times.' Suppose you finish the rest of that verse.
Mary Gross: and in various manners
Dr. Kinley: and in various manners
Mary Gross: spake in times past
Dr. Kinley: spake in, listen, in times past
Mary Gross: unto the fathers
Dr. Kinley: unto the fathers, the patriarchs, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Abel, and all of the patriarchs, in times past, spake unto them, in the times... Now we got to get straightened out on what kinda God this is. Spake unto them in times past, spake unto the fathers in times past.
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Mary Gross: by the prophets
Dr. Kinley: by the prophets. Read.
Mary Gross: have in these last days
Dr. Kinley: have in these last days
Mary Gross: spoken unto us
Dr. Kinley: Now, if you don't know nothing about the last days, you don't know nothing whatsoever about what you're reading about. Hath in these last days, did what?
Mary Gross: spoken unto us by his son
Dr. Kinley: spoken unto us by his what?
Mary Gross: son
Dr. Kinley: son
Mary Gross: whom he hath appointed heir of all things
Dr. Kinley: whom he hath appointed heirs. Read.
Mary Gross: of all things
Dr. Kinley: of all, all things
Mary Gross: by whom also he hath ordained the ages
Dr. Kinley: by whom also he hath ordained the ages. Now you see what, now you see what we got. Now when you get that all cooked up, and boiled down, understand what it is all about. See right where what you're talking about. You got it right there, setting right there with you. That's why it's important for you to go back here. Alright. Now you've got God, who in sundry times, or in diverse manners, and various different ways, spake unto us. Us who? Now who you talking about? To the Gentile? No. Spoke unto the Jew back here, by the mouth of the prophets, and various different ways.
Now let me see if I can show you this. Now we are always talking about the carnal ordinances, aren't we? Now when we, when we show a carnal ordinance, now this is one way we show it. This is a.., and all these various different ordinances. Now he spoke back there of these different things and these different ways, but it all pointed to One. But now when He come down here... Now just like Jehovah's Witnesses, I have to tell on 'em, there to good to keep. They said that Jesus was God's chief representative on earth. Now my story's different than that. I said that He was God manifested in a body, or Paul said that He was God manifested in the flesh, seen of angels, believed on in the world. He wasn't His representative, that was Him Himself. Alright, read.
Mary Gross: who being the brightness of his
Dr. Kinley: No, that's enough of that first chapter of Hebrews cause we're kinda through with that for a moment.
Mary Gross: then went up Moses
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Dr. Kinley: Now God who in sundry times and diverse manners spake unto us by the mouth of the prophets, but hath in these last days, you have in your Book, hath spoken unto us by His Son. Is that, is that the way that's in your Book? Now here's what you have to have. Come on down, Messiah is born in Bethlehem of Judea. And then He went into His ministry, and then He spoke to these Jews in those last days. Now what do you mean when you say that? If there was four days gone, or four thousand years gone. You don't have but two more left. So in them last days, opening up of the fifth millennium of time. I said fifth. Then if it's opening up with the fifth, then you don't have but the sixth left. So therefore in those last days, when Messiah was here. We been in the last days ever since He's been here, cause He came in the fifth, opened up the fifth millennium, or fifth thousand year. Then you got the sixth. Then comes the seventh, or the Sabbath, or the rest.
So He was God Himself that's spoken unto us, by His Son, as Dr. McCoy said there that He come in His Father's name. Now you can't fix it, there's no way under the sun for you to fix it, Jesus Christ, you just can't do that. His Father's name is Yahweh. Now it'll help you out a whole lot, it'll help you out a whole lot. Now His Father's name is Yahweh. Now His Son has got to have some Yah stamped somewhere, for Him to come in His Father's name. And that's not Jehovah. Somebody said, 'Well Jehovah is the English translation of Yahweh.' Well, why don't you just go on and use the thing straight and you won't have to be bothered with the translation. See the point? But it just isn't that. That's what they said it was, but it's not that. That's why they don't use it that way too. Now when we speak of.., now they said Jehovah's Witnesses. Now Jehovah's wrong, his witnesses, you just got through reading about it. There in the first chapter of Hebrews, God who at sundry times, and in diverse manners, spoke unto us, us by the mouth of his witnesses, Jehovah's Witnesses.
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Yahweh's witnesses, those are His witnesses that he's talking about, by the mouth of the prophets, those are the witnesses. Somebody running around here ____ ____, 'how come ____ Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, we know we're right, we got twenty two hundred ministers.' Why does the Roman Catholic Church say the same? That don't make them right. If it don't make the Roman Catholics right, how's it gonna make the Jehovah's Witnesses right? I preach the truth. Try. Alright, but now we wanna be put together.
Now you have here, you have here, in Genesis 24... Now we're talking about God that you keep using in this Bible. You got that God who in sundry times and diverse, is that what you got? Now here you got over here in Exodus 24:9 and 10, read it quick.
Mary Gross: Then went up Moses
Dr. Kinley: Then went up Moses
Mary Gross: Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu
Dr. Kinley: Nadab and Abihu
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Mary Gross: and seventy of the elders of Israel
Dr. Kinley: and seventy of the elders
Mary Gross: and they saw the Elohim of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Oh yeah, you're reading out of the right book. I can't, I don't want that now. I don't want that now. I want your version of it.
Reader: then went up Moses
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Reader: and Aaron and Nadab
Dr. Kinley: Then went up Moses, Aaron,
Reader: Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel
Dr. Kinley: Alright, read.
Reader: and they saw the God of Israel
Dr. Kinley: and they saw... Now you see the word God coming back in there again? You see the word God? And they saw the God of Israel. Now every time, and all through your book, what you do you talk about the God or God or God or God, everybody out there: God, God, God. But down here we want you to know Him as He is and as He actually exists. Now there's no difference over there with what you said about, when you said God over there, that ain't no different than what it was over here in what the folks call the New Testament.
And say, by the way, while we're on that too. You can't get nowhere. It's a hard thing to get through a sermon, because now what the people think, they think that, and according to the teaching, they think that they been reading it in the New Testament. So God's not what you think, and the New Testament is not what you think. And Jehovah's Witnesses or God's witness is not what you think; in other words, all this thinking you been doing, it's all twisted up. Then somebody have the nerve to come down here, and sit down here, and listen at me, and then this is what they say. They didn't come to learn nothing. They thought they had all the answers before they come. They come to set in judgement on me. Then when they get done, they walk out, they say, 'that man down there, he don't know nothing.' Said, 'I disagree with him.' Now if you're much, if you're all that much smarter than me, this is your place up here, cause this is a school. Get the point? Alright. Now it said God. They saw the God of Israel. Now read the sixteenth verse, I believe it is.
Mary Gross: and the glory of Yahweh abode upon Mt. Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days
Dr. Kinley: Now listen close.
Mary Gross: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud
Dr. Kinley: Now, Now listen. Read it over again.
Mary Gross: and the glory of Yahweh abode upon
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Dr. Kinley: No, no I don't want you to read. I thought there was something wrong with that. I want you to, I want somebody... I want you to read the wrong term.
Reader: and the glory of the Lord abode upon Mt. Sinai
Dr. Kinley: and the glory of the Lord abode upon Mt. Sinai
Reader: and the cloud covered it six days:
Dr. Kinley: and the cloud covered it six days:
Reader: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud
Dr. Kinley: and the seventh day he called unto Moses
Reader: out of the midst of the cloud
Dr. Kinley: out of the midst of the cloud. Now listen folks, look up here at me. Now the cloud covered it six days. Now you just read back over here in Genesis, I mean in, in what you call the New Testament. You read back there that God in times past, or in the dispensations and ages past, spoke unto us by the mouth of the prophets. And I'll have you to know that the prophets come clear on down from Enoch, Enoch the seventh from Adam, but have in these last days spoken unto us. Now you got it straight?
Now here he is back here. The cloud is covering it six days, so you can see. You're gonna have to see. You're never gonna get straightened out till you see. You can't put it together until you see. Now look, now the cloud covered the mountain six days. Now when you read, I'll just tell you about this, when you read down in Exodus the twentieth chapter, the twentieth chapter, where that God spoke from Mount Sinai, and gave them the commandments. Said I'm, in the twentieth chapter, listen now, listen to what he said. I am the Lord thy God, that you have in your Book, your King James Version, that brought thee out of the land of Egypt, and out of the house of bondage. You always got that God, that word God. Now, now you get up to this business here. Said, now where it said, remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Now watch this one, watch, now watch, we're putting here, we're putting this together, don't be unconscious of it now. It said now, remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, for in six days... Now you got, now that's the twentieth chapter of Exodus, for in six days, remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, for in six days the Lord God created the heavens and the earth. Now is that something like you got in your Book? I wanna know.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now you got, you got the six days that the Lord God created the heavens and earth. Now you got Moses going up here and the cloud covering it six days. And now you got the Lord God speaking unto.., the mouth of the prophet, and you got the Lord God. And you got God, God, God, God. Then the twenty sixth chapter of, of, first chapter of Genesis and the twenty sixth verse, listen now folks, it says, Let Us make man. Now "us" means, to say "we" or "us," is plural. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
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Dr. Kinley: Means more than one. Get the point? Means more than one. And you heard that man set right here the other night and ask me that question, besides asking me where did Cain get his wife. You heard me answer and heard me, you been hearing me talk about I got all the answers, well he asked me a few. Where did Cain get his wife?
Now look, let me show this one right quick. Now your Bible, Roger, does not say. You can see it plain almost all the way over here. ____ ____ everybody can see it here. Now your Bible does not say that God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden. It does not say that. You say, 'Well I thought it did.' Well, you can see that doc, I'm telling you now ____ ____ ____. It don't say that. Does it? Did you think it did? Answer me.
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Well what did I say that for? What am I asking you about that for? I'm telling you this. Now when it comes to Cain slaying his brother. And Cain, it said Cain went out to the land of Nod, out of the presence of the Lord. So now they're saying to me, 'well where did Cain get his wife?' Why, because there's nothing said about Cain and his wife being ____, anymore so than there is about Adam and his wife being driven out of the Garden of Eden. Now the Lord God, so you say, listen, sent his angels and drove out the man, and the woman went on out with the man. The woman, who was called his wife, went out with the man. Now, watch I want you to see the relationship of it. Now then, here comes Cain. He's marked and here he goes to the land of Nod. Somebody said, 'Well where'd he get his wife.' Well, just like Adam, ____ ____ his wife, went with him. Somebody said, 'Who was it, was it ape, or something else.' No, it's just the same relation to him, as was this man here. And your Bible says that Seth, Eve conceived. Now listen, let me put it this way, Adam knew his wife. Now they're just, where they're talking about Adam knew his wife. Cain knew his wife. Now here's the way they're talking about. They don't understand what you mean when you say Cain knew his wife. Adam knew his wife. That's the thing got 'em puzzled. Think that Cain went out there in the land of Nod and out there he knew his wife. It don't mean that. It means this: the same thing about Adam knew his wife. When God took the woman out of the man and brought her to him and gave her to him, he said now she is now flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone that she shall be called Womb Man, therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife. Now look, he knew where she come from and he did know her, when God come and brought her to him. Now you get way down the line, and you say, it came to pass that Adam knew his wife and she brought forth a son, and his name was Seth. Don't you have brains enough to see that they had sexual relationship? That's what it means by knew her. He knew her before that in the sense in which you're talking about. He knew her when God gave her to him, he was acquainted with her... And he was a hundred and thirty years old when she, when he knew her and she brought forth Seth. He knew her before then, when she brought forth her other children. And he knew her before she brought forth any children. Now you see what I'm talking about? How you get all twisted up in the start of it and you just can't get straightened out.
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Now Cain, said he went out in the land of Nod, and there he knew his wife, meaning that woman went out with him, and she was his sister. Now all the days of Adam, he lived nine hundred and thirty years, listen folks, and had both sons and daughters. Now you can't find the name of no daughter of Adam in the Book, but he had sons and daughters. And Eve is called Eve, so says the Book, because she's the mother of all living, that is of the human race. So then if she was the mother of all living, and Adam was the father of the whole mess ____ ____, then you're dumb enough, come up here and ask me,'well, where did Cain get his wife?' And you say, sisters and brothers, that's what you call one another today. Your wife and your sister in the true divine sense of the word, and your brother. Messiah, if He resurrected from the dead, He called 'em brothers and sisters. That's what you're supposed to be: brothers and sisters. And if you're not I hope you will be soon, but it takes something to make you that. Now, when it comes to the human race, all flesh that dwells on the face of the earth, one blood and one flesh. Everybody, all come from the same place. Now it'd have to be that way for it... Now what is he talking about? Why don't you, what are you trying to say. Well I said that so that you could go back here and see that this one God that we're talking about, all this you got out here in the earth, and that's he was talking about, the first minister, all that you got down here in the earth, He is the father of everything. Everything had to come from Him. Jerusalem above is the Mother of us all. And we all had to come from the same place. Get the point? And I tried to show you by showing you Cain, the negative, and Adam, the positive. Now we thought all the time it was, somebody call out here, that the Lord God, drove the man, drove the woman out of ____ Garden, drove the man and the woman out, but the Bible says he driven out the man, the woman went out with him. Listen. Look, are you listening?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: When God made this boy, we have it down there on the big chart, when God made this boy he made him anthropomorphidite. Now you know what I mean by that, I mean that he was masculine and feminine united into one body. He was male and female in one, in one body. That's what I mean by anthropomorphidite. Now look now, look and then after He made that boy out here, after He made that boy out here, there they are right up here. After He made that boy out here, outside, not.., no, no, no, God didn't make him out in the Garden of Eden. Didn't do that, but He made him outside of the Garden of Eden. And then He took that man, that man that He had made, that man that He had made, and He put him in the Garden of Eden. Put the man in there, not the man and the woman. He just put the man in there. That's what your Books say. And when that man sinned, He drove out. But when He put the man in the Garden, the woman was in the man when He put the man in the Garden. Then He caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man in the Garden. After he put the man in the Garden, then He caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man in the Garden. And He took the woman out of the man in the Garden. The woman was in the man when He put the man in the Garden. And when He drove the man out, the woman went out with the man. Now it's the same case, same thing in Cain's case, his wife. His wife was his sister. She went right on out there with him. And out there he knew his wife, and the Book said she conceived and bare him a son. He knew
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her down here, and he knew her all along the road. He knew her going in, he knew her coming out. We all could use some sense and how the devil has got us all confused in things right from the word go. Just like we're talking about this God business.
Now you got the cloud covered it six days. You got the, remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy for in six days, God, the Lord God... Is that what you're reading about? You'll never in John get it straight like that.
Now the twenty sixth verse says that, 'Let us make man.' Said, 'now who's God talking to there?' Us means plural. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: So everywhere you go along you use that God, and there's no way in the world to get straightened out like that. You're use the title, that's what I'm saying. Now it's six days. Now hold still, cause you gonna get this after you leave. And I'm gonna let you go too pretty soon, but I do wanna get this point over to you.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Now look, now you got there, for in six days the Lord God created the heavens and earth. Now look, look right up at me, Bishop. I got him setting up now. Now when I say something to him, you perk up too. I'm talking to you through him, See how I have done it. Now I'm saying to you that the Lord God did not create the heavens and earth in no six days. Said, now that looks like a direct disputation. Don't it? Now look, look up here. Look up here. See the sun rising and setting, the sun rising and setting. Moses and them have come out of down here, out of Egypt. And the cloud had led 'em out of there. And this is just only 1490 years before the birth of Messiah.
Now Moses is telling you that the Lord God spake from Mount Sinai there and said I am the Lord thy God that brought thee out of the land, this is after He brought 'em out, said, I am the Lord thy God that brought thee out, they were already out then. Get it now? And remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, for in six days, the Lord God created the heaven and the earth. Now you got it that the cloud was over the top of the mountain, and you said that, there is over there six days. Now then, I want you to go... You following me now? I'm walking backwards, going on back to where we started from there in the first chapter of Hebrews. God, who at sundry times and diverse manners, spake unto us by the mouth, but hath in these last days spoken unto us by the mouth of His Son. Now I'm driven, I'm going back.
Now then, now here you are, now you got the cloud covering it six days and you got Moses entering into the midst of the cloud. Now then, you got there that it said, Let us make man, now that's plural, and you got God is one. Now you got plural. Now you read over here in the first chapter of Genesis and verse one, start at the first verse. You be quick, be quick.
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Reader: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth
Dr. Kinley: In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. Now here's what I want you to see, Bishop. You're reading, you got your finger on it. And you were saying in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. And you say dogmatically, and all kinds of fights and riots start about staying on the line and reading what's in the Book. Now you got there in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now take the twenty sixth verse of Genesis. Now look, now you got it that God said, Let us. Now you got God over here by Himself creating the heavens and earth. Down here in Genesis, down here in Exodus you got that the Lord God made everything that there was in the seas and everything that there was in the air and everything else. And tears just running down your cheeks, just as sincere and just as serious about it as you can be, and don't know blue do about what you're talking about. How am I doing Bishop?
Bishop Short: (CHUCKLES) Alright.
Dr. Kinley: You see what I'm talking about? You don't understand. Alright, read.
Reader: Second verse. And the earth was without form and void
Dr. Kinley: And the earth was without form and void. I'm after the twenty sixth verse.
Reader: And God said,
Dr. Kinley: And God, now you got it again. And God said.
Reader: Let us
Dr. Kinley: Let us. Now what I'm talking about, now, now you're in, you got in the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. Now you get down here to the man, and you said, 'now he said God said, Let us.' Can you see through what I'm talking about?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Now any nitwit oughta be able to see it. Now go back ____ ____ ____. Now just what I just told you, get Exodus 24:9 and 10. Now then you got Exodus there. Now look folks, work quick with it and fast so we can get on out of here, but work quick and fast so we can get some understanding about it. So you'll be benefitted today. And listen, you got to have this thing this way. Now don't you, don't you come up chewing the rag with me, and telling me, 'yeah, I know God, I know.' That won't work down here. 'See, I'm Reverend from...' We don't care nothing about who you are and where you come from. Somebody said, 'Well I'm the bishop.' I don't care nothing about the Bishop. Somebody said, 'Well I'm above that, I'm the Archbishop.' I don't care nothing about that. I'm Bishop too, I want you to know that. I'm as big as they are, as there is down here. And I don't mean just down here at 1040, I mean down on the earth plane, cause I'm down here on the earth plane and up yonder all, all one and the same time. Don't make 'em no bigger than me. And I'm not exalting myself either. And they don't make 'em no littler than me either. How's that? What we're talking about is the
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mystery of God.
Now, you see there, you got there in the twentieth chapter, remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy, for in six days... Now during them six days, we're gonna have a lotta trouble in writing this book about that. Ain't we headed up to something. For in six days, the Lord God created the heavens and earth, He's creating in six days. No, He didn't create it in six days. He created in the realm of eternity, and the cloud hung over the top of the mountain six days, and Moses seen it while the sun's rising and setting six solar days over the top of that mountain, God done created the heaven and earth, way back yonder in the realm of eternity, way long before that. Moses just seeing a vision. And them six days that he's talking about, he's seeing the vision in the six days. That's just back about 1490 years before he was born, but the heaven and earth was created long before that. Then listen, Roger, you listen at me. Can you tell me how in the world that God is gonna create a creation in a day, when He's first got to create the day before He can create something in it. What's a matter with you? You're saying that God created the heaven and earth in six days. That's what you're saying.
Now if God.., and you got Him one, and then you got down here, and you got plural, making a man, Let us. Then you got Him six days creating. Don't you see? What you're reading about is in sundry times, he showed this unto them by, through visions and revelation, and Moses is seeing the vision. Just like when you go home from here, you turn your television on. And you're looking at something that's in New York. You're looking at something, maybe, anywhere. And that's a tell a vision. And that's what this is, that's what Moses is doing, he's telling a vision, and he's seeing a vision in six days as the cloud, as the sun rose and set. Now he's telling you in the first chapter of Genesis, in the beginning, in the beginning of the vision. He's telling you what happened while the cloud covered the mountain six days. And on the seventh day that that cloud was over that mount, why He rested. How would they know? Now he had told them to gather manna six days, and on the sixth day gather enough for the seventh. Don't gather none on the seventh. That's the first anybody on earth knew anything at all about the Sabbath. And so he rested on that day that they didn't gather no manna on. He saw it in the vision. Now they didn't gather the manna before Moses saw the vision. They didn't gather the manna before He spoke from the mountain. Now these are things that we just have to know, and we just have to see. And until such time that we can see we're gonna be confused. And we gonna be having this idea, wondering whether God is alive or dead. We don't understand His omnipresence. In six days. God did not create the heavens and earth in no six days. Now listen, I said that so it's plain so you could see that.
What Moses is talking about here is, what they're talking about here, is seeing the vision the six days that the cloud hung over the top of the mountain. Now look, listen Roger. Now I just got through saying He didn't create it in six days, and you just got through reading to me that He did create it in six days. Now it just looks like I'm wrong, or else Moses is wrong. Something wrong somewhere. No, that's not it. He's seeing the rerun of this vision of the actual of creation. He's seeing the vision or God is rerunning it over again. And it took six days up there while the
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sun is rising and setting. And on the Sabbath Day, which was the day that they didn't gather no manna on down there, which is within there... He rested that day. And it took Him that time to show the creation. Now listen, says, Let us. Let there be light, ____ ____ a deep. You'll, you'll have to be grown to take this one. Now it said, let, He's speaking here, it say, Let there be light, and there was light. Let the waters above divide from the waters beneath. Let the dry land appear.' He said, Let this happen, let that happen. We're talking about speaking now. And He was speaking in Hebrew too, so Moses could understand, because Moses was a Hebrew. Now here is what I want, here's what I wanna wipe out now, and here's where we carry you into the depths. When He actually created He didn't say a thing. He just willed it to be. And that's the way it was. But now for Moses to, to witness it, He got to have something to say here. He just performed what He had in his mind, performed. There's wasn't nobody to say us nor nothing like that to, because all the us and everything was there... Wasn't nobody to convince that the light divided from the darkness, wasn't nobody there. And if He had been speaking, there wouldn't have nobody there to listen at it.
Now here's what I'm driving up to show you. Now He inhabits eternity. Isaiah 57:15 say He inhabits eternity. Listen folks, eternity is a day, Eternity is the Day that has no beginning and it has no ending. You have no where start it, you don't have no where to end it at. But now if you was gonna start it, as you say, then you would start it in a day that already was created, that already there, and then God did something in that day that was already created.
Now we're talking about God, in, who in sundry times and diverse manners, spake unto us by the mouth of the prophets, and has in these last days... And then I tried to show you, and they saw the God of Israel, had it in your Book, and you had God create the heaven and earth in six days. And everywhere you start, you remember you say, God this, God that. And you say God did this and then finally got around to the place where in the Genesis 1:26 where God said, Let us make man. Now you're buffaloed. Now here's what's the troubles is. Now if they had translated that right in your Book in the first place, you wouldn't had been in all that trouble. Now I'm going back, right over the same verses, right quick, because I wanna go in a second. Sister Mary fixed me something nice to eat and I wanna home and eat it. So I'm, I'm ____ ____ ____. Now if you had put the thing in there right like it ought to be... Now you take Exodus twenty four, where it said they saw the God of Israel, and the cloud... Now go right back and cover it, go right back here, Exodus 24:9 and 10. Now be quick about this.
Reader: Then went up Moses
Dr. Kinley: Then went up Moses
Reader: and Aaron,
Dr. Kinley: and Aaron,
Reader: Nadab,
Dr. Kinley: Nadab,
Reader: and Abihu
Dr. Kinley: and Abihu
Reader: and seventy of the elders of Israel
Dr. Kinley: and seventy of the elders of Israel
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Reader: and they saw the Elohim of Israel
Dr. Kinley: and they, huh?
Reader: they saw the Elohim
Dr. Kinley: they saw the Elohim. They saw the Elohim of Israel. Now in your English Bible, it says they saw the God of Israel. And now, right there where he's reading at in your English translation, and in also your other translation, it said and they, Moses entered into the midst of the cloud. And the cloud covered it six days. Now listen, it said in the beginning, that's Genesis one, God. Now if the Elohim that you seen in the cloud that covered it six... The Elohim. Now the word Elohim is plural, it means more than one, in one. Now let me show you what I'm talking about. This is spirit. It's true essence, it's true substance, it is the source where everything, good, bad, indifferent, every other kinda thing, has got to come from that, from that substance. That's the universal master ____ spirit. That is the Father, the God, the Spirit. Nothing don't exist but that, not a thing. That's all that there was. There wasn't nothing else. There wasn't no we and no us, and yet there was. Now listen, I'm trying to put it together so you can see. Now that spirit that is there without any shape and form is the total embodiment of all substance and essence. There is nothing existing outside of or independent of it. That's the Father. Father means origin and beginning. Now listen. Now that spirit took on a shape and a form, not in its totality. Now you have the same substance, the same essence in this shape and form that you have without the shape and form; in other words, this is this substance in shape and form. Now this without shape and form is one. This without, with shape and form, that's two. So then that makes a 'us.' And He never created nothing, not a thing, until He took on that shape and form: that's the plurality of it. Now you got that in Genesis 1:1, read both versions of it.
Reader: In the beginning Elohim
Dr. Kinley: In the beginning Elohim. You said they went up in there and they saw Elohim of Israel. You said in yours they saw the God of Israel. And you said the cloud hung over there six days. And then the six days you're saying that the cloud hung over the top of the mountain, you got 'em recorded in the first chapter of Genesis. Them same six days is the six days that you're reading about in Genesis; in other words, that's the vision that you're reading about in Genesis. He's telling a vision in Genesis, and look Roger, all scripture, that's scripture come by vision and it come by revelation. And Moses telling what he saw in the vision. In the vision he said, in the... He couldn't see pure spirit without shape and form, he couldn't see that. He couldn't identify it. So then he says Elohim, which means that this pure spirit in the shape and form that he could see in that vision, that's what created. Now read the difference, read in the first chapter of Genesis in your Book, and read the difference in the first chapter of Genesis in the other.
Reader: In the beginning God
Dr. Kinley: In the beginning God
Reader: created the heaven and the earth
Dr. Kinley: That's right.
Reader: and the earth was without form and void
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Dr. Kinley: Read. That's enough, I don't want no more in that, cause if you do we'll lose the continuity of thought. Now read it in the other book.
Mary Gross: In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth
Dr. Kinley: In the beginning Elohim, plural. So now when you get down to 1:26, the plurality of it said, Let us. It was us all along. In the beginning Elohim, which was that... And it was no different between, In the beginning Elohim created. In the beginning Elohim made the man where it said, 'Let us make man.' But we got it torn, twisted up here, we don't see, we don't understand.
Now, you remember I was talking about Adam and Eve? Now look, if this man, Elohim... See you wouldn't exist. When I talk even angels, they don't tread along there. I don't blame you for going out here saying, 'I don't believe in what that man said.' There ain't no way for you to believe it unless you understand. Now this Elohim, which meant the spirit in that embodiment. Showing, as we might say in words you might understand, God or the Father embodied all essence and everything. And shape and form, He is masculine and feminine within Himself. He's male and female within Himself. So then everything that was produced had to be produced male and female. Now listen at me Wallace, that's the reason why He's reaching down here and making the man with the woman in him, because both of 'em in there. Is because both of 'em are in Elohim, in pure spirit. And therefore the man is in the likeness and image of Elohim. And when you say image you're talking about something that can be described. When you're talking about image you're talking about something you can look at, something that you can see, something that you can show somebody else. So man was made in the likeness and image, but when you come to the Fathership degree or pure spirit without any shape and form you don't have no image. Do you see, you see how deep it is? See how deep it is? And listen buster, you setting right on that seat, right where you are. And sister, you setting right there where you are. You both have masculine and feminine genes and hormones in your body. I'm talking about the man has feminine in his body and I'm talking about the woman, she has masculine in her body. You heard me, you're not blind. Because it's got to be that way on account of this. So therefore, everything has got to be produced in that respect. Doesn't make any difference what field it is, for it to have its perpetuation, whether it's vegetable or animal, its got to be that way. Isn't that wonderful?
Now it says, God who at sundry times and in many ways, it's one way He speaks to you. You understand the terms? The language? You get it? In diverse manners spoke unto us in times past, spoken by the mouth of prophets. Moses and the prophets. Then God Himself took on that shape and that form. Born of a virgin, then, just like Adam was born of a virgin, virgin Mother Earth, Father. That's the only son the virgin had back there, or that man just got out, that's the only one. All the rest of 'em had to come from that one He got out of that. So then, this one here, when He died and He went to the grave then, just like Adam, his wife, his bride. All have to do is just look. It's just as easy as falling off a log. And the only reason why that we don't understand, or the only reason why we can't get together cause we don't understand.
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Now Israel was God's wife. She was His bride back here. Now if you... When He into the heart of the earth and resurrected from the dead. Look, had to go in His side to take that woman out. He was, the plural was in Him. Adam was plural. Had to go in that side and take that woman out of there. Now then here, He's got to, if He's gonna fulfill this back here, then He's got to be punctured in the side. And then Adam, when he awake, he saw his wife and he knew her. Same thing got to happen over here. When he goes to sleep, punctured in the side out there on the cross, goes to sleep, lays down there in Joseph's new tomb, and it's got to be over the Sabbath Day too. And then when He resurrects from the dead then His wife has got to be right there. As many of the saints which slept in the dust of the earth rose and went on into Jerusalem. Well then what are them? If you go back in the thirty seventh chapter of Ezekiel it's the whole house of Israel, the dry bones in the valley. Reverend done preached, people knocking off. That whole house of Israel, the dry bones. Son of Man breathing, prophesy to the winds. Now you got here that God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul. Now you got him, now you got Messiah raising from the dead. Now watch, them things is just, all you do is just go from one to the other.
(GLITCH IN TAPE)
And you're around here trying to tell me you're alive when you're dead, nobody's breathed on you. You can't understand this mystery from start to finish. You can't see that Elohim or God is masculine and feminine both, in that one embodiment. And showed it down in the earth by making the man like that, and making him... Look, everything's coming from him and that's the way it is back yonder. And that's the way you got your Bible all twisted up here. Now in the first chapter of Genesis, it said, and Elohim or in the beginning Elohim. It didn't say God there, but Elohim, which meant that spirit and that spirit in that shape and in that form. In that He made everything by reaching back in that other substance, that is universal master substance, and He took out of that and He made everything that was made, both natural, physical, and intermediate. And listen, let me tell you for your information, you're going right back the same way you come. If you don't know the way you're coming you sure in hell don't know the way back. That's right. Cause that's the way you have to go, round through hell. That's why I said that. Listen at me, ____ ____ ____ ____. ____ hell or wherever.
I hope you've gotten something out of it. I didn't get to all that I wanted to get to. But I wanted you to see that Paul was talking here in the twelfth chapter of Hebrews. And I wanted you to see in confirmation to what Ezekiel... Can I go on and say it. Now listen, now we told about they're saying about the Hebrews, knowing whether Paul wrote it or whether somebody else wrote it. They question it. And I'm telling you that Paul didn't write it, none of it. Moses never wrote none of it. Yes I know that the devil will say, Moses wrote it. I know all of that. I know it speaks of there on the Isle of Patmos, when John was on the Isle of Patmos, said what you see, I say write it in a book and send it the seven... I know all of that, but here's what I want you to see. That what he is writing down there in that Book, God actually is the author and finisher of our faith. He's the author, whether it's the epistle to the Hebrews, whether it's the epistle to any of 'em. It's not Paul
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and it's not Peter and it's Dan... That's the reason why it ties in so perfectly one with the other and comes all through the dispensations and ages, because God is the author and the finisher of our faith. And that's how it comes on down out of the spiritual realm and on down in the material realm and on down through the dispensations and ages. Don't make no mistakes from one prophet and the other. He's speaking to us. It is God that is speaking through the mouth of the prophets, not the prophets speaking, but it's God speaking through them. But now in these last days He's spoken to us by His Son, which means this, if you, if you can understand, God's in a body, that's who is the author and finisher of our faith. He's coming on down through the dispensations and ages, it is the author of everything that comes into existence. And that's the reason why there can't be no mistakes. There can't be no errors, can't be no misunderstanding about it. And every man got this spirit within himself, purify himself, listen, and enlighten every man be in you, Jew or Gentile, it's every man that's got that hope in him that gets his eyes open, and they all speak the same thing. Why? Because they're all looking at the same thing. And they're all perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same spirit. And every last one is led by the Holy Spirit, or led by the spirit of God. The spirit of God ____ him up in the ____ transgression and so forth and so on. It don't have all that friction and all that. There may be some impairment in understanding because one hasn't grown to the extent that the other is. You may have to grow some. Which, I'll tell you one thing, Paul said, wherefore, seeing we are compassed or surrounded with all the prophets ____ ____ in a body and everything, seeing we're surrounded, therefore ____, not laying again the foundation of repentance and from the dead works, seeing that you are, and then on down to the last verse, said because Bishop, said you're come to God. You come right up to Him. You come to the general assembly. You've come to Yahshua the Messiah. You've come to an innumerable company of angels. You've come to all that there is. Of all, anybody who comes to, in the spirit. So they're ain't gonna make no mistake, there ain't gonna be no err, divided, and if I understand and I impart it to, I gave you the secret, Bishop, you're understanding would be just like mine, or mine would be just like yours. ____ believe, then it's because we're all looking at the same thing. I hope that you got something out of it.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS) (END OF TAPE)
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13) * 1967: THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, *
GUIDING YOUR CONSCIENCE AND MAKING INTERCESSION FOR YOU
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Los Angeles, California
originally recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on reel to reel recorder
transferred to audio cassette by Geraldine Rothstein
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog Number: 67 HSGC
1984
originally transcribed by Mary Springer
originally proofread by Gerry Rothstein
1997
first proofreading: Mary Colucci
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Susan Ameigh
fourth proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fifth proofreading: the International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Moderator: The founder and dean of the school and the author of God the Original Archetype Pattern of the Universe: Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. I'm always happy and glad to be here to talk with you about the purpose of God through the dispensations and ages. I want to firstly admit that here in the past few weeks I have been somewhat in a very state of depression. I'm troubled. I'm concerned. But I don't want to stay here overtime. They want to get out of here so another meeting can follow this one. But one of the things that's important for me to tell you is, I know why I'm in the state and the condition that I am in. I know. I understand it thoroughly. Many reasons. Some of 'em I could convey to your mind and say it to you real simply, plainly. You could check up on your own self and see whether I have told the truth about it or not.
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I'm just going to give you one, one example. Now we've got all kinds of committees down here. And you have been requested to go out into the highways and hedges and ask the people to come to school, to bring somebody along with you that they might be, have their understanding illuminated. Some of those who have been coming around here for a while and went off. You have no report on 'em, you don't know nothing about them. And some of them that have done that that are the cause of them being that way. They come theirself, but they don't never have no report for the other fellow. Now there's no need for you to argue with me. You know who they are and so forth and so on. We've had new people to come here and leave their names and addresses and what not. And we have asked you.., some of 'em come two or three times, and we've have asked you to contact them and try to encourage and inspire them to come back. And some of us are the very reason why they don't;
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: in other words they haven't received any inspiration at all from you. And as Sister Evelyn Winthrop said, very well said, that we have gotten up here, we have taught you the reality of God. No foolishness. No fooling. Cannot be gainsaid, or refuted, or disputed by anybody. And we've had something to go along with that and I told you about that a multiplicity of times. It's one thing to run your mouth and it's another thing to live the life. Get the point? One thing to be blessed with the gift of gab, extemporaneous oratory, good and bad manners, or the diff.., the knowledge of the difference between one and the other, and then for a thing to be what it oughta be. There's a whole lot of difference between that. Do you understand what I'm talking about?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: In other words, there's a difference like this: between the reality of the thing and a 'pretend to be': just sharp hypocrisy, deception, deceit, to put-up a front, as the Pharisees and the scribes did. And Messiah said they was full of dead men's bones, inwardly. That's something else.
Now for better than a year I have tried to talk to you plain. I told you what was going to happen. I've even told you, went so far as to tell you, you can do the same thing. We've tried to bring you out of delusions into reality. The reason for it is because you are coming down to the close of this age, where you shall either reap the benefits of your labors, be rewarded eternal life or eternal damnation. This is not a play thing, this is not just some foolishness. There is nothing in the world any more important, nothing nowhere, any more important than for you to have a profound knowledge of God, and an experience within yourself.
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Now you know there never has been a time in the history of the world... You can go get a Reader's Digest, World Telegram, or any of the up-to-date books to give you the statistics and the records of the numbers of different sects and cults and creeds and what not, is going on on the face of the earth. New ones springing up every year, being incorporated and chartered. All kinds of factions splitting off just like a cell and forming another. It's just a common thing. There'll be more next month and next year, if next year comes, than there was this year; and hallucinations and every kind of thing... Now you listen at me. I told you we wanna get out of here on time. So what time you're here, be here.
Men are taking all kinds of pills, trying to get some kind of an experience, as they say go off on a trip or something or other like that. Something new thing happen to 'em. They are trying everything: drugs, dope and all that kind of thing, trying to get some different experience to what they ordinarily have in life.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: They're shooting rockets and things up in the sky, trying to investigate what's up around the moon and on Mars and Jupiter and Venus and first one thing and another. Now you know that's so. Now these are things that marks the end of this age; just like we told you about this war over here in the Middle East. Now I told you that it had been repeated over and over again, and the people still haven't learned it; in other words, let me say this, now we told you about the Children of Israel coming out of Egypt, putting the blood on each side of the linters (lintels?) of the door and above the door posts, and it was dark that night. Is that right? And they ate that passover. Well now Yahshua the Messiah died out there. He is the lamb. This is to point right to it: there's your four points of blood, one on this side of the door and up over the lintel of the door, and here you've got His blood in the basin, and course naturally they had to pierce Him. Now any idiot can tell you that. Anybody can read the Bible and tell you that. Then you read the Bible, and where it says that Yahshua, Yahshua was crucified out here. And now it turned dark over the face of the earth from the sixth to the ninth hour. Is that right? Now anybody can read that. Little children that go to school, grade school, can read that. Now what this is here is a fulfillment of that; jot and tittle.
And as we go on, we say now that the Children of Israel went through the Red Sea and went into the wilderness here, and they were there in that wilderness 40 years. Is that right? They were baptized in the cloud and in the sea, and went.., now anybody's Book will tell you that, anybody's Bible. Get the point? Now you can hear 'em say that down at the Baptist Church. You can hear 'em say it down at the Methodist Church. You can hear 'em say it in the Roman Catholic Church. Why? Because they're all reading out of practically the same thing. Is that right?
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Now suppose I say to you: why was all of this? What's the value of it? What do you learn from it? Why that in the first place? Now then you've got a whole lotta hypotheses and theories about it. And then somebody else will come along and say, 'Well, listen, just the same, it's, that's God's business, and I don't believe in meddling in God's business.' All them different kind of things. But down here we've tried to teach you the ever presence of God, and ____ that God is quick and powerful, sharper than a 2-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of asunder the soul and the spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the mind. Now God's purpose is, He declared the end from the beginning. If He declared the end from the beginning, I'm talking about the intents and purposes that's in your mind. Now that's what I'm talking about right at the moment. Well, God knows what He has purposed and He's carrying it out through you. So then, don't you see He knows what your intentions are and your objectives are, even before they enter your mind? In other words, He actually has to put it to your mind in order to carry out what He purposed. Then why is it He wouldn't know what, what, what you think about and what your intentions are? And they affect every part of you. That's your mind.., the discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the mind. Well now, those are the things down here that we try to tell you about and bring you face to face with reality. And some of the things that the people that come down here do when they leave here, I'm gonna tell you the truth about it, it, it, it would, it would frighten me to set up under all of the things that they've had the opportunity to learn and to and to be, come into direct contact with and then act like they act. You just haven't learned the lesson.
Now let me explain myself. I remember that Dr. Roger Jackson said that he was traveling en route to.., from Ohio back to L.A. and his car went out of control on the road. And there was several people that are setting right here, in the car with him.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: And they just spoke the words and that automobile straightened out. ____ ____ every one of them, just before the ditch.
Now what I have taught is this, now this is what I've taught: I have taught that God is ever present; never no time absent. Do you see what I'm talking about? And when you call on Him according to His purpose and out of His heart, it won't be next week. It'll be right now. Now then Dr. Dennis got up there and told you practically the same thing, identically the same thing last night. Now that's what I have been teaching. I've been trying to tell you that.
Truthfully there is a God. And Peter put it this way, God is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness. Well, what's going on then? This is why you're not destroyed as of now: for He's long suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth; just having patience with you, while you're forever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now listen folks, if it won't do you no good, how do you expect it to help somebody else out there?
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Now I don't care what it is you do. It doesn't make any difference. Now let me, let me, let me give you a little eye opener on what I'm talking about. Now I have never taught you people, I refused to do it, to teach you that it is a harm.., that it's harm and it's a sin to drink a, take a drink of anything. I'm not gonna teach nothing like that. Now do we have in our Sunday School lesson and so forth and so on total abstinence from intoxicating liquors and beverages? I'm not gonna teach nothing like that. But right when I won't teach that, I'm surely not gonna teach you to just hang up under a bottle until you just get all every kinda way. I'm not going to teach that either. You'd be better off to totally abstain or let it alone, if you can't handle it right and then you got to control in here. Now I'm just, I brought out, I'm just talking about whiskey there. Now can you understand what I'm talking about? You're not that dumb that you can't understand. I'm not gonna teach that. Then because I won't teach it, some of 'em go out there and get all drunked up every, and every kind of thing, 'Well, that's what Dr. Kinley's teaching.' You're a liar, I never taught nothing like that.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: And I never intend to teach nothing like that. And I don't see that it's proper and it's right for me as your founder and dean just have something hide around and carry on like that.
Anything that you can get, it's out in the open anyhow, you just don't know it. You're not hid. Nobody hid at all. But I do say that the Holy Spirit encouched within you and in your conscience, and listen, you know it, I'm not telling you a thing new, you already know it, because you got that going on up there all the time, them limitations; and stand the control. Know when you got enough to eat, Dr. Gross, and know when you got enough to drink if it's water. In absolute control. Now that's what I have taught, and you quit laying that stuff on me. Going out there and acting a fool. Yes, me myself, if I wanna take a drink, I'll take a drink; that's my business. I'm not gonna hide nothing from you. If it's wrong for me to take a drink, it's wrong for you to take one. If it's wrong for you to take one, it's wrong for me to take one. But in this case, it just don't happen to be. Where the wrong comes in at, is when you, even your conscience is telling you that about anything. Now that was something physical. Now you can understand what I'm talking about there when I'm talking about physical things.
Now I wanna tell you a lie is not physical. Love is not physical. Hate is not physical. That's not physical at all, even though it does manifest itself through the physical body. It just manifests itself through the physical body, it's not physical. Those are attributes. And you don't take them on a plate or in a bottle or something like that. You don't do it that way. I want you, I want you to understand what I'm talking about. And I want you to know this: when you violate those things, I want you to know, there never has been and never will be a sin committed in heaven or on earth.., everyone will be punished. You cannot get by with nothing. As some people say, 'Well, look, there's so and so and so and so, if they can do it and go to heaven, I can too.' Well, I'm just telling you plain, straight out, it's not like that. They can't go and neither can you. Now you can
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understand plain talk.
Now here was Messiah, He come along. There was the scribes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Zealots, and the Essenes, and others, and still cropping up. Now, He didn't side in with none of 'em. Now, you got all of these various different sects and cults and creeds all over the face of the earth. That's why this school was put together and chartered under the state law. Now, I didn't say heaven was chartered, I said the school. They will not let us come out there and teach what we teach you down here. They will not do it.
Now don't start nothing with me, I'm 50 years old in this thing. 35 years I've had a knowledge, and I preached in the pulpit for 15 years and didn't know what it was all about. Now, if I'm gonna tell you about myself, you know good and well I don't care nothing about the other fellow. Now, what we need here and what we must have here is the reality of the thing. Now, we're either gonna ____ ____ and lost and what not... And I have struggled with tears, day and night to try to get you to comprehend and to understand. Now, I did that. I did that for a whole.., I mean born down on it more extensively in the last year. And then look, tell you day by day what's gonna go on, if I want to do it. There hasn't anywhere in the world anything important that is went on in this past year, not a thing of any importance, but I haven't told you about it. And I told you this: now it's possible for you to learn the truth and to save your souls. I told you clean. I told you clear. I told you the truth. Sometimes it hurts.
Just like when we went to the Bahai meeting. Now everybody knows it's not customary for me to run around from one church to the other, and one place to the other with them that does go. I encourage you to go and search and investigate everything in the world. Don't I tell you all to go to the Baptist Church? Don't I tell you all to go to the Methodist Church? Don't I tell you all to go? Just go to any church. Don't I tell you that?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And then for many years. And I, I, I, here, until here right recent, I wouldn't go with you. The reason why I wouldn't go with you, because I don't want somebody to think, I don't want none of these hypocrite preachers out there to think, or to feel, or imagine that I have to be along with you to keep them from proselyting a new thing and them taking my, my ministers. I don't want 'em to think that, because it's not so. That's why I don't go. There they are, take them. If you find anything out there any better than what we have to offer you down here, cut out. All I ask you to do, come back and tell me, so I can go too. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's right. And if you can lick me, you got the whole gang licked. That's right, just come back and let me know something about it. Now, it's just not out here. And I've faced you up with the reality of it.
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Yes, I'm hurt. I'm deeply concerned about the conduct and the deportment of the people that the world is looking at out here that attends to this, attends to this class. And all of the things that come to me, I'm complaining about 'em. And I wanna tell you this: if your, listen at me now, if your conduct and your deportment, after coming down here to this school, if it's not the truth out there, and Paul says, ye are our epistles. You are our epistles, read and known of all men. Now, people looking at you, lotta times they get the wrong perception of you, I'm not saying they won't, but the things that you do which you and them both know is wrong and you shouldn't do, I'm telling you, you're gonna have to pay for it, that's blaspheming against the Word of God. That's just open blaspheming, that's all it is. And you're gonna have to pay for that too. If you come down here and say, 'Well, I know this is right down here,' and inviting somebody to come down here, then you go out there and living one of them kinda lies. And they can't see nothing good within you at all, one way or the other. It is about time to go home now. Got the wrong influence.
Now we've asked you to go out here and bring in the people: preachers, teachers, and Baptist preachers, Methodist preachers and Roman Catholic. All of 'em out there have access to this pulpit and we haven't isolated or discriminated against nobody. Right?
Student Body: Right,
Dr. Kinley: You've been here with me and we've permitted them to get up here and disagree. I don't appreciate it if they disagree with me on something I teach, they don't think it's right. I don't get none of 'em no ____ ____ saying they believed with what I'm talking about. ____ ____ ____.
Let's have this thing heart to heart, because now, here's the reason why: because we don't have to try to make a God be around, just like it was here, the time we've been going to Bahai meetings, and I've been going along with you. Now, their custom and practice is to get up and read something out of the Bahai Book. And they say, 'There, let's pray.' They get up and read what they call a prayer. I said no, no sir, it's not like that. Nobody writing out no prayers for nobody. Now, that would sound strange to some people, because that's been their custom all their life that they're teaching in the Roman Catholic Church and that's their teaching in a lotta of these churches. 'Here's a nice little prayer here in the prayer book.' And they're very particular about the reading of it, just like you have the ritual for many other things. Now we disagree with the whole thing.
Now, here's why we disagree with it. It isn't because we have a different Bible than anybody else. It's not that. It's not just because we wanna be contrary and different from somebody else. That's not it. But the reality of the thing is this: there's always somebody saying, 'Well, you read over there in Matthew 6:9, the Lord's prayer, a divine book, says: 'Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.' You say that's the disciples prayer; you just get mocked and ____ ____. I beg your pardon, that is not the Lord's Prayer. 'And thy kingdom come, thy will be done.' And all, every which way they're talking about, He's gonna jump down
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out of the sky now and set up a kingdom on earth and rule the earth for a thousand years. Now that's not the way it is.
Now the Lord's Prayer, 17th chapter of Saint John, now that's where He, where He was at when He did the praying, was out there in the Garden of Gethsemane. Great drops of sweat dropped off of Him out there in that Garden. 'Well, what's He praying out there in the Garden for?' You have to tell me something. It's got to become a reality. Why was it great drops of sweat? Why did He go in the Garden? Why did He tell the disciples to tarry ye here while I go yonder and pray? What for? Until some of these things can become a reality to you, just reading it don't mean nothing. As we've told you time and time again, anybody can get up here and read the Bible. You don't have to come down here to read the Bible, you ought to have one in your own home. But now, what you got in there... Now here, let, let, let me explain this, now here's why I don't believe in getting up here and reading. I don't... Yes, did, David did get a lotta prayers out of there. I'm not arguing with that. But now the very same one that taught the disciples to pray before He died, very same one, and the very same one that prayed out there in the Garden of Gethsemane is in you making the intercession for you, setting right there and you don't need to read it out of no book. See that now? You are the epistle yourself. Maybe you don't, maybe you don't like that. Romans 8:25 and 26, let's read it out of the Bible.
Mary Gross: But if we hope for that which we see not,
Dr. Kinley: But if we hope for that which we see not. Can't you see something in a book? Alright, read.
Mary Gross: then do we with patience wait for it.
Dr. Kinley: then do we with patience wait for it.
Mary Gross: Likewise
Dr. Kinley: Likewise. Now just like that. Alright, likewise. Read.
Mary Gross: the spirit also helpeth our infirmities
Dr. Kinley: The spirit. The spirit. Now that's not something somebody wrote down, but the Spirit helpeth our infirmities. Alright, read.
Mary Gross: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought
Dr. Kinley: Now look, you're standing up here reading something out of the book, now you turn around and you said we don't know what we ought to pray for. If somebody wrote down here what you oughta pray for, then you know it's by the Book what you oughta pray for. You see now? Alright, read.
Mary Gross: but the Spirit itself
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Dr. Kinley: But the Spirit, not somebody's carnal mind writing out something, but the Spirit Itself
Mary Gross: maketh intercession
Dr. Kinley: maketh intercession
Mary Gross: for us
Dr. Kinley: for us
Mary Gross: with groanings that can't
Dr. Kinley: with groanings that cannot be uttered, didn't say nothing about writing 'em down. You get it? Now let me show you what the spirit does. We are not done with that. Read on.
Mary Gross: And he that searcheth the hearts
Dr. Kinley: and he that searcheth the hearts
Mary Gross: knoweth what is the mind of the spirit,
Dr. Kinley: knows what's in the mind of the spirit,
Mary Gross: because he maketh intercession
Dr. Kinley: Because he maketh intercession.
Mary Gross: For the sons
Dr. Kinley: He's in you and making up the prayer, making intercession for you, not in the Book, in you. Not in the cemetery either. Then you take Hebrews over there, says He entered on through the veil, sit down at the right hand of the Father making intercessions or He's entered into heaven itself. I don't need that junk you got wrote up here in this book. Yeah, them words is nice words but that's not it. And that's how they deceived the hearts of the simple. Now listen, praying. Read on a little further.
Mary Gross: because he maketh intercession for the saints, according to
Dr. Kinley: Listen, I want you to see what I'm talking about, so you don't mess up. For He maketh intercession for the saints
Mary Gross: according to the will of Yahweh
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Dr. Kinley: According to the will or according to the purpose; in other words, the spirit in you never at no time asks for something that's out of harmony with the purpose of God. And every one of them prayers is an intercession that's made by spirit, every last one of 'em must definitely and positively be answered. He will make some intercession. You're praying, talking a lotta fool talk to me. Do you understand what I mean? I mean that you have the Holy Spirit in you making intercession or praying for you, making intercession and and making that according to the purpose and will of God. And you can't tell me that the Holy Spirit's in you making intercessions for according to the will and purpose of God, and you're just gonna fake it. Now, you can take that kind on junk on back to Babylon because it just don't have no place here.
Now, we've demonstrated that. Now, let me show you what I'm talking about when I say I demonstrate. When it's in me, in me and I have permission, permission by the spirit to speak or to utter, I don't care what kinda disease you got, cancer just is no more than a bad cold, you have never had nothing wrong with you, physically. When I get permission to speak, it's gone, that's all. Believe it or not, it's gone, Wallace. That's what the difference is. Yes, I have a lotta compassion and sympathy on people that's afflicted in every different kinda way and I bear those experiences in my own body because I have 'em. And if there was anything I could do, I would do it. I just wouldn't be concerned too much about their character and conduct, if it was just left up to me. Here old boy, old girl, okay, go ahead on, but I don't have no permission. And there's, there's not a thing I can do for you without permission. Nothing I can do for me. Let's get the thing straight. But if I get permission, the Boss speaks, just like when Yahshua the Messiah was at Lazarus's tomb, had to get the permission to speak.
Now, I've been doing these things for 35 years, and I have witnesses setting right here, others sitting from one time to the other, come running in here, say, 'Look, is there anything you can do for me? Why hurry up and do it. I, I wanna go to work tomorrow.' We've had all of that kinda junk. Yes, that's the way it is. Get up and run out yonder. And listen, I don't know whether you remember this or not, down at Embassy auditorium when we were first coming around here and begin to get this school together, I told you to behave yourself, I haven't forgot, then Yahweh would heal all of your diseases and it would be worked out right in this school. I told you that. Do you all remember? All them that remember hold up your hands. I told you that. It's a ____ ____ now, than what it was then. Now, we're not nearly, we're not nearly concerned about the body and your bellyache. I'm not, I'm not worrying about that and your physical pains and what not. I'm not worrying about that. Some of us would be better off dead than you would be alive. Now, say, 'What'd you say that for?' I'll tell you. All of them things that you was doing, that you were doing that you ought not to do and you know better, I'll put it this way, it'd be better if you had never been born.
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Now we want to be ____ with the reality of things down here. And it's just not a form of Godliness and denying the power. And everything is going along according to the purpose of God. And your conduct or your deportment and conduct out here, the way that you appear to these people out here, they, they're not reading nearly as much in the Bible as they are you. And there's no possibility of you having the spirit of righteousness in you, in somebody with an unseemly conduct.
Now what you look like, just to give you the picture of it. What do you look like? Down here in school you talk about God, this God and that, down at that school, they've got the truth down there ____ ____ ____ ____ down there, 'Very smart fella,' and a whole lotta foolishness. That, that's bad. Walk up to some woman or some man and insult somebody. Then when I get up here and tell you about them things, says, 'Well, he don't mean this, he means that.' Now, if I haven't got sense enough to tell you what I mean, how do you ever hope and expect to learn, if I haven't got sense enough to tell you what I mean? You don't have to patch up nothing out there I say. You understood everything I said today, didn't you? You don't need to put no patches on it.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: And I said what I meant, and meant just exactly what I said. That's it. Let's, let's don't do that.
I know.., I'll say this and I'm through, I know it's nine o'clock. I'll say this, I know brothers and sisters, it is getting harder and harder and tougher and tougher. I know that it is. Even the devil, he'll kill some of you. More problems now than we ever had in the history of the world. We're being tested and tried with every kind of a thing you can think of. Me too, I don't want to leave me out, but we can overcome, if we just have the patience, as Jesus said, you say He said, in the 24th chapter of Matthew: in your patience possess ye your souls, I wanna tell you this, make.., wanna make this real good and clear to you: every son that He receives, He chastises. It's right for God to chastise; He kills, He heals, He wounds. He does the whole thing. And we can't get back at God because He chastises. We'll be destroyed for that kind of a thing. We must be obedient children. As many, as many as are led of the spirit of God, they are the sons of God. John put it this way, 'Beloved, what manner of love is this?.' What kind of love is this? Paul said, 'That surpasses our understanding,' and John said, 'What manner of love is this that the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God?' Now He was manifested out there on the cross to get you out of the sinning business. Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin. Anytime your conscience speaks to you and the spirit in there leads you; now you don't violate that and try to defend yourself. You're wrong.
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END OF CLASS. THE STUDENT BODY STANDS.
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14) * JULY, 1967: THE BOOK OF JASHER *
(also known as: BEEN EVERYWHERE)
by Dr. Henry C. Kinley Springfield, Ohio
audio cassette recording received from Lee Warren (#47)
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 67.07 BJ
transcriber: Laura Baxter
first proofreading: Alysia Bradford
final proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved - 1995
Please note that this transcript was finished and approved in 1995. The only changes made to that transcript are those listed below:
1. ... Indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Moderator: The next speaker tonight will be the founder and dean of this school, Dr. Henry C. Kinley, the author of this book: God, the Archetype (Original) Pattern of the Universe. Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. First of all, I'd like to say I am indeed happy and glad to be here with you and to talk with you about the things that pertain to the purpose and the kingdom of Yahweh.
I thought as Dr. Gil, and also, as other.., and I think my memory serves me right when during the conference, it doesn't make any difference about who the speaker's committee is, none at all. It just don't make no difference; all of it is the same thing. That's right. And I can sit there and listen to anybody who's telling the truth. It just don't make no difference. It's Yahweh through all. And there is no big shots and little shots, no big I's and little you and all that kind of stuff. Ain't but one big, big shot in it; and that's Yahweh. So it don't make no difference, when I look out at the world and see what goes on and so forth and so on.
Now you have a riot in Detroit. Is that right?
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Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you have a riot in Detroit and Lima, is between here and Detroit, now you are talking about a riot in Detroit, and you got to go right through one in Lima to get to Detroit. Now, then, somebody said, 'well look,' some of the folks in that condition, too, called up and said, 'I don't think it would be safe for you to come now.' Didn't they, Christine?
Christine: Yeah. They did.
Dr. Kinley: Well, alright. Let's come clean with it. I don't want nothing unless it's really clean. Well listen. We don't care nothing about that. Everywhere I go there is a riot. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) There's a riot and a revival. Now that is what is happening.
Now you say the Negro, and they are raising sand/ they want their right. And they are underprivileged people and all that kind of thing; burning down houses and raising sand up there. Well say, listen. Now you listen at me. We do have some Negro representatives in Congress. Now if you don't know about it, why find out about it. But now, they call themselves over yonder fighting for this country. Negroes parading in every city; they just got to have our rights. And how here is the Indians; you tell me about one Indian in Congress. This was his country, so as to speak. Leif Ericson come over here. Christopher Columbus and also Amerigo Vespucci. Now we talk about the national debt, 328 billion dollars and everybody is singing the blues. And now Congress, and Kennedy, they say so, too, the Congress owes the Indians, according to negotiated contracts, more than 328 billion dollars; and he ain't got a dime.
Now if you want to run your mouth off about it, he hasn't got no place in Congress. We say the white folks brought us over here. Well, the Indians was already over here. How stupid you can be? Yes indeed. Well, somebody'll say, 'well where did he come from?'
They said, 'I don't know. I think he come around through the straits and come up through Alaska and into this country.' He don't know where I come from. Now you see, see how it works? We just as stupid as we can be and think we are justified. We don't see him, the Indian, running around and carrying on and first one thing and another. Now I told some of you that go from here, from time to time, going to California along the road, you will find them Indians out there trying to sell beads and first one thing and another. Living in a shack, you can see right straight through it. You see now?
Well now, look. We have had to cheat. Now it's bad if, to stand in this school and in Los Angeles, California, and speak to the audience that Colonel Apolry has stood here and spoke; and we had our pictures taken with him, and he's fighting for the Indians.
Someone: Brigadier General
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Dr. Kinley: Brigadier General
Someone: Herbert C. Hogan.
Dr. Kinley: Herbert C. Hogan. Keep me straight. Dr. Gross had his picture, and we
all had our pictures taken together. Are you seeing what I am talking about?
Now everybody has an opportunity and a privilege to stand here and preach to you the gospel without distinction of race. We put it so you sing that song every time you get up here. Sing it. The aims and the objectives are a perfect example of the intentions of the school. Why not try to read them once in a while? Yes indeed. They are there to understand. Now you go out here and look at nature. Look at the flowers. Look at the beauty in the color and all of it that's blended in there. Go out there and look at it. Go out and look up at the stars. Just look at nature itself. It typifies and it shows and David said, 'everything in his temple praise the Lord.' Isn't it wonderful. Yes indeed, it really is wonderful.
But I tell you we just can't stand one another. And as you heard me say many times speaking parabolically, figuratively or allegorically. Now look, 'if I can't be the bell cow, I just will not gallop in the gang. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) 'Whatever you do, let me be the big dog.' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Then, you get along all right with me, then. Do you get the significance out of that? ____ ____ ____ That's that carnal mind.
Now you read the paper. Didn't you read the paper? Now you got Pope Paul, oh, he's going out of the Vatican. He's going to Jerusalem. He's going to retrace the footsteps of Christ. Nobody never thought anything about Judas being right along with the Messiah. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Oh, of course, he doesn't have that sign. Now here we go again. But you take out and we go to Bombay, India. Oh, he's showing us how. And then the next thing you know, here he comes to the United Nations: to the United States of America. Now listen. 50 representatives from different countries are at the Vatican. Even after you say a thing sometimes people don't understand. Listen. 50 people representing 50 countries was at the
Vatican when Pope Paul come from the Vatican over here to the UN; and that's them same people, representatives from them countries over here. What you got to come over here for? You had them right there. But, oh, he's so wonderful. And when he gets over here, he says, ' peace, peace.' 'There must not be more war.' Long speech. then he goes back, and he says, 'look. Don't you dodge the draft because of your religion.' 'You go on over there and fight cause Christ said, 'this gospel shall be preached in all the world.' That junk and stuff they are preaching must be preached in all the world. So you are fighting that Roman Catholicism shall be predominant. Did you get that?
Student Body: Yeah.
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Dr. Kinley: Now then, here they are standing up here saying, 'peace, peace, He's going to Jerusalem, I'll repeat myself and show you what I'm talking about. He's going to Jerusalem. He's going to Bombay, India. He's going here to the United States to speak to the converts there. He's going to Fatima and all like that. I wonder why he don't go to Vietnam? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Now you can figure that one out.
Student Body: They're fighting over there.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. Now he has got all the carnal ordinances and everything natural, and they are fighting with natural guns and ammunition in defense. And they are looking for ____, and he's staying at home saying, 'peace, peace.' Telling you now to go to war. Oh, I am turning you out against the Roman Catholic Church. And he runs all over the world and ain't saying nothing about going to Vietnam.
Now listen, you want to bet? I don't bet. I bet you he don't go to Vietnam. How is that? How am I doing? Am I doing all right? Yes indeed. Now you see how sly and slick and slimy we are?
Now with this truth we're talking about, we don't care nothing about no riots in Detroit. I was there right after the other riot that they had up there.2 We had a riot down there in Los Angeles. And listen, somebody is saying, 'well Mickey, He's going to Detroit.' He knew the riot was going on. He said, 'I am going.' Right straight on in he went, but he's leaving the conference, the convention or conference, going to Detroit. Someone said, 'I expect you better stay over, until the thing is over.' Alright. Where is Jones? He's leaving going to Birmingham, Alabama; and there's a riot in Birmingham. Everybody's leaving, there's a riot everywhere. Ain't got no fear. And people just don't catch on to the jest of this thing. They say, 'go in all the world and preach the gospel to every creeping thing.'
They say, 'look, we don't believe in white people and negroes mixing.' Where are you getting your philosophy from? They say, 'back here, the Bible says so. Back here there was no mixing.' Getting it right out of there, the Bible.
Well look here. Let me tell you something. These Jews that come out of here and went into Canaan's Land, they couldn't even marry, they had to stay within their own tribe: one out of the tribe of Jude couldn't marry one in the tribe of Levi. They are all Jews. See the point? Now they got that, with their stupidity, and call themselves going by the Bible. they are rearing and charging around. Well, why was it they couldn't do it. Now the reason behind it they don't know. Just said, 'the Bible said so.' It was to keep the inheritance within their tribe. That land was divided up properly. Yahshua and Israel when they went into Mount Zion, they divided that land up properly. Now I want you to know this too: now there was some Gentiles in there, you just call them Arabs or Ishmaelites or Jebusites or Tishbites. There were some of them in there too; and this is typical of heaven. Now they couldn't run all of them out. They had to leave some in there. Eight nations, they had to leave
______________________
2 In 1843 fighting between blacks and whites led to a riot in Detroit.
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them in there. Why eight? When Noah crossed over here, how many in there?
Student Body: Eight.
Dr. Kinley: It's just as easy as failing off a log. Nothing hard about it. Eight nations. Gentiles. Now look. Abraham, you can see it here on this picture over here. Right here. Abraham and Melchizedek returning, Abraham returning from the slaughter of kings met Melchizedek. Now Melchizedek had no pedigrees and genealogies. Now Melchizedek is a king and a priest, all within himself; he is king and priest. Now the priesthood of the Messiah is after the order of Melchizedek. Now Abraham meets him, Melchizedek, and Melchizedek blesses him, Abraham, while Ishmael and Isaac are still in his loins, neither one of them had been born. Now you see that now? He's blessing them. Now Ishmael was 15 years older than was Isaac. So it's a usurpation or substitution until Isaac is born. Now Ishmael was by Hagar; Isaac was by Sarah. Now, you listen at me. But I have you know that Abraham was spoken of as his father. He was just as much Ishmael's father as he was Isaac's. Now what are you talking about now? I am trying to tell you the Apostle Paul was made a minister of the Gentiles. The arabs, they had a right there, and the Israelites they have a right there as of now.
Now all of the angels that was in heaven, not all of them was cast out. There was some left there if you are reading. So then, if this be a type, you can't cast out all them Gentiles. They are there. Now then, Isaac being by Sarah and in Isaac shall thy seed by called, instead of by Hagar, Ishmael was by Hagar. Now it is through Isaac that the blessing comes upon the Gentiles. The younger. Do you see what, now can you see that/ This mystery of God is something else, and the devil just simply does not understand. He don't understand it.
Now, as Dr. Gil, said, 'His word is gonna keep right on going.' He can't save ____ ____ ____.
Now Paul is made a minster of the Gentiles. the Apostle Paul. The Gentiles were the uncircumcised. Uncircumcised. The Jew was the circumcised. Now circumcision nor uncircumcision don't mean a thing. Why did you say that? People always keep me on the carpet. Why? Because the promise was made before there was any circumcision at all. In other words, God promised Abraham before he was circumcised. So the circumcision or the uncircumcision don't mean nothing. 'Well, yes, it means something,' somebody says. Yeah, sure it dow. Yes, Circumcision in the heart but not in the flesh. Listen, when Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, did you hear what I said? I said Abraham, who is the father of Ishmael, who is the father of Isaac, they were all circumcised the same day. But the promise was before which shows now outer circumcision in the flesh it don't mean nothing. So it's a circumcision made without hands. And circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh. Everything has got to go, well, let me speak of it this way.
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Now we have riots and tribulations and what not, say look. Can't you read your Bible. In the 24th chapter of Matthew, it said, 'kingdom against kingdom, nation against nation.' It almost says that. Well, what do you expect. Mother against the daughter. Father against the sons and about. Now if it didn't happen, then the Bible wouldn't be true. Do you understand the issue of what I am talking about. And it's just like Dr. Gil said, 'the people, they don't understand.' And they are arguing around this and arguing around about that and arguing around about the other.
Now look. I told you all that I was going to Rome. Going to Mecca. Going over in Jerusalem and around, I mean in bodily presence. Going to England. I know them folks. I know them in person. We have already been to them somewhat. Our work. but here is what I want to tell you. I don not have to go to Rome in bodily presence. I do not have to go to Arch Bishop (Archbishop?) Ramsey of Canterbury; I don't have to go there in bodily presence. I don't have to go none of the places that I mentioned. I don't have to go. I didn't have to go to tell you when Pope John would come out. I didn't go in there and shoot him with no gun. Did I?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley:. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) I didn't have to go over there to get rid of Pope Pius XII. I didn't have to go over there to find out about Pope Paul the VI. I didn't have to go. Somebody said, 'well, you was scared. You know he's a great man.' Well now, just to let you know, so you can get it over in this school, that I don't have no fear, and there is no place that I can go bodily presence but what I am now already there in spirit, even to hell.
Now I have sought to prove these things to you in the congregation of the assembly as you said. Nobody can take no credit for teaching me. You just can't do that. I came in the world with this. And they haven't make up no solution to change this black face. I am within the vail, and if a whole lot of people, I am speaking figuratively, if a whole lot of people thought that, that this was God embodied in a body, a black body, they would quit tonight. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) You know they would. No indeed. They wouldn't do that; they wouldn't serve him.
Now I said that to say this: Yahweh is in all of you. He's in all of you, and to him goes the honor and the glory and the praises. And as he said, 'as I live, to me every knew (knee?) shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to the glory of Yahweh.' He didn't say what races, but said all of them.
Now for a few minutes I want to show you a thing or two. and then we want, now you be quick, because we got a long something coming out, and we want the people to catch it.
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Now I want to tell you about some of the things, I didn't bring the big commentary. And when we used to conduct school here before, we had all of the big shots' commentaries, all the encyclopedias, and just all, just volumes of copies of stuff. And anytime anything was said, we stopped class and would go back there and get the book, see whether it agreed with the book and to let you know.
Now, listen closely, don't forget this. There's been some errors made, and misunderstanding. But we don't want to abuse nobody about it. Because the only thing about it, you just have to go as far as your understanding will let you go. And you learn a little at a time. And don't get discouraged, because the whole thing ain't busted and blown on you at one time. Just remember that he was six days showing this vision to Moses. And don't get discouraged and disgruntled cause you didn't learn it all at the conference or so/ don't get discouraged about that. God is infinite. Yahweh is infinite; and you will be learning in ages yet to come.
But now here is what I want to tell you; now say, some of the things that you heard at the conference you never heard before in your life, and nobody on earth is capable and qualified to tell you about it but me in the family. Now I would have brought this commentary down here and laid it down and let you read it. That's the way we usually do. don't we, Harris?
Dr. Harris: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: We usually let you wee (see?) what the other, what all the big shots all over the world have said about a thing. Right.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now then, in that there haven't any of them said what I have told you, they just can't understand it. And if you think they are, you got plenty of time to look. You don't need to get excited and get to rushing around.
Now this Book of Jasher, a great big commentary that I had years and years ago. I didn't know where a lot of the books were. My wife came and gave it to me at the conference. And I looked in there, and I read around and I said, This is my writing. You never had knew who the book belonged to, many years ago. So then I just put my name in it this trip. But now in that commentary, and we have a bunch of them in Los Angeles, and none of them never told you a thing like we are fixing to tell you about now.
Now I want you to see through what I am talking about. There has been no sperm, there has been nobody on this earth plane, nobody, and let me add this to it and there never will be no more than what Yahweh has taught us about it. Every last one of you, we are the offspring, 17th chapter of Acts of the Apostles, you will find it there, that we are the offspring of God.
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Dr. Mitchell made a chart, and he put, you know the people like to floored him. And he put on there, at that time it was the longest word there wan (was?) in the dictionary; philoprogenitiveness. And they said that that man sure is mart (smart?). Is that right?
Dr. Harris: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: And my daughters came and asked me about this thing. Well, the old man is always using a lot of words. I am gonna fix it this time. So they came home, and they asked me about it. And I just broke it down, broke the word down, then took the chapters and verses in the Bible and showed it to them.
Now, that means, now pay attention, instinctive love of his offspring. Now this is the philoprotogenitive (philoprogenitive?), now the tow was not in it down at the school many years ago. So then whatever they add to it is, they are fixing it so that it expresses everything with prefixes and suffixes. Now just like anthropology. That pertains to races. Entomologically it pertains to races. Well, now you got the flesh there, so then, they pulled it out and called it anthropsychologically to get into the mind. Put the stretches on it. Well now, we can keep up with all of that. So it would take mind and body. Isn't that right, Dr. Harris?
Dr. Harris: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: So now, him hanging out here on the cross, here you can find this in the book. 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever.' Breathe. Here is man, his offspring, and he gave his Son. That's the philoprogenitiveness or the manifestation of the love of God. He gave his Son for his offspring to redeem and restore them back.
Now listen. There is deep, esoteric secrets concealed in this book. They are hid and only revealed by the spirit, and now I come to tell you about those things.
Now I want you to look at the 19th chapter of Joshua and the 13th verse.
Reader: And the sun stood still
Dr. Kinley: And the sun stood still
Reader: and the moon stayed
Dr. Kinley: and the moon stayed
Reader: until the people had avenged themselves
Dr. Kinley: 'till the people had avenged themselves
Reader: upon their enemies
Dr. Kinley: upon their enemies.
Reader: is not this written
Dr. Kinley: is not this written
Reader: in the Book of Jasher
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Dr. Kinley: in the Book of Jasher Now while you got your Bible open, look in the margin of the translators. Now the margin of the translators is, look right between here in this space here and see what the book of the upright means. I mean see what the book's caption means. It's called the Book of the Upright. Is that what you got there?
Someone: I do.
Dr. Kinley: Well, give it to me. I want people to see what I am talking about. Here, Dr. Gross. Show it to them. Just take a walk. Come on; take a walk. Show it to them. Take a walk down the aisle there; and hold it out. And show it to them, please, so they will know where to find it at. ____ this. Tell them what is meant by the margin of the translators.
Someone: Here is a big book here.
Dr. Kinley: Yeah, yeah. Here is a big one. Now look folks. I can't do everything. And that is what we are teaching these people in the school. It's in that book there, the Book of Jasher.
Sister Hogan, are you back there?
Sister Hogan: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Bring her cane up here. Now the prophets, her, and all, now that's 2000 years to work with. Now I an gonna tell you, I am not going to do anything with this cane; but just show you. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Now you can sit there, and look at it. And I am gonna give this cane back to her; it belongs to her. I didn't want you to make no mistake about it. But if I say, turn into a circle, it turns into a circle. Somebody will say, 'well, I didn't see it.' Yeah, thee (there?) is a whole lot of things you didn't see. I agree with you on that. So I am telling you now, and you can be looking for it.
Didn't I tell you that Moses, standing out here by this burning bush, if somebody else was standing right beside him they wouldn't see a thing. You get it? Now I am talking about this Book of Jasher. So we are going to confine it to the Book Of Jasher. Now everybody knows that there is no J in the Hebrew language. There is no J in it.
But now, you take this cane. The book of Jasher, if you look there you showed them what we meant in the margin of the translator, it means the Book of the Upright. Now if you take this, you see this cane? Now if you take it and just turn it, just like that. Turn it upside down. What have you got there?
Student Body: J.
Dr. Kinley: Is that right?
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Student Body: Yeah
Dr. Kinley: You got a J?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now let's turn it around here. The same cane, just turn it around here. Now, what have you got?
Student Body: A stick.
Dr. Kinley. Do you see it? You got a stick. Just turn it around this way; you got a J. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now somebody come up here, and write it on the board. Gil, come up here and write Ayah asher Ayah. Write it up there. And you can see that up there just like you can se (see?) this cane, just like you can see everybody plain. Now listen, Reverend ain't told you nothing about this. You know why Reverend ain't told you nothing about this congregation? You can guess that one; can't you? Now that Ayah Asher Ayah. Come on back here. Put the cane up there. No just put it right up there beside that one. Rub it out. Put a J there. You don't need the top one. J A S H E R. Isn't that what you got there? Now if I turn this cane right there, that's a J. Now there is no J in the Hebrew language. Now, Ayah Asher Ayah means I will be what I will to be. And I told you that I had it; and that's how it would go. I have to understand both sides of it. So when I take the same cane and turn it right over this way, and I got a stick. I got a stick in the Ante-diluvian. I got a stick in the Post-diluvian, and I got a stick here. That's that 666 of that man of sin. No look, look right up here. Now if I take the J off of it, I have Ayah Asher Ayah: I will be what I will to be. Listen. One of the sons of Jacob was named Ham. One of the sons of Jacob was named Asher. Now in the Book of Jasher which is the book of the upright, now you have got it in the 10th chapter of Joshua in the 13th verse, now I want you to see it has no business there unless it is somewhere else.
Now nothing written, everything must be written in the law, and it must be complete. Now get Aaron's rod or this staff that Aaron had out there herding the sheep. He had it in his hand; he brought it out of Egypt. It was his older brother's, and Aaron was three years older than Moses. That's kind of funny ain't it, three years older than Moses. Ever stop to take any time to get any distinction about this man's minister.
Now listen. They got the Book of Jasher, the book of the upright. Now Moses did not write that. Now Exodus 33:31, 32, 33.
Reader: It's Exodus 32:31. And Moses returned unto Yahweh and said,
Dr. Kinley: And Moses returned unto Yahweh and said,
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Reader: Oh, this people
Dr. Kinley: Oh, this people
Reader: have sinned a great sin
Dr. Kinley: have sinned a great sin. Now let's see what we are talking about. When Yahweh had spoke these commandments from the mountain, then they took blood, bulls, and goats, and, you got it right there in the book, and dedicated that. And then Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu and 70 of the elders went up into the mountain, and they saw this vision of him up there in the mountain. I don't mean they saw the creation and all; I don't mean that. I meant just what I said, Gil.
SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Now if I had of meant they saw it, the creation, I would have said so. But I didn't say so; did I?
Student Body: No sir.
Dr. Kinley: Now somebody'll run here and want to say, 'he meant.' No. If I had meant it, I would have said it. Get the point? So they saw this vision up here. They saw Him in a vision. Now this was Yahshua. The I and the Y and the J. The rod and the staff. All these people with their head down in there and the devil don't know nothing about it. So now, here is what I want you to see then. They saw the God of Israel. The Elohim of Israel. They described Him. Now listen, watch. So when Joshua was up there with them, and when Joshua, we don't have his picture here, Joshua told Moses that I he heard a noise in the camp; and so, He told him to get down. Now look. If he could hear a noise in the camp, why couldn't Moses? All these deep things hid in that Book. So when they come down out of the mountain and Moses threw these tables of stone down, when they had built this golden calf, he broke the tables. Yahshua was right with him when he come down. We didn't draw his picture up there on it or nothing to indicate it. We could have. Now he was right with him, but he threw the tables down. Now Yahweh had spoke from this mountain. Look. They didn't keep the commandments for 40 days. Now here you are out here clowning around. That is all you are doing and missing the boat.
And carnal ordinances and all these natural things are nailed to the cross. Now, when He gave this law from Mount Sinai, this is what that is; and they didn't do that. Jeremiah 31:31 says they didn't. God said they broke that. Now in the literal sense, they are nailed to the cross now. And so now on this side it says, they say it like that, it's in the spirit.
Now, Dr. Gross, I want you to listen to me, one more time. I don't care who they aping after doing these natural things such as eating Lord's Suppers, washing feet, and baptizing, now you hear me, and I do know what I am talking about. I don't have to guess. That man don't know what it is all about. I bare him record that he has a zeal, but he does not know what it is all about. Now if the blind lead the blind, and they will all fall in the ditch together. Now we are walking after the spirit not after the literal thing. Our bellies prove we eat naturally so as far as this physical
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man, but your inner man you can't give him no pork chops. Now that's just making it plain, down right simple. Now then, what she's reading, they promised to do this. And when they came down out of the mountain, seeing that they had built this golden calf, now he said, thou shall not make unto me any graven images or any likeness of anything, and before he could get down they'd done took golden altars off that in the tabernacle, they done took it and made the golden calf out of it. The graven image. Now you see that?
Now in the first chapter of Romans, it talks about giving praise to man, worshipping four footed beasts and things like that. Is that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen. Moses said to them people, you have sinned a great sin. You heard God from the mountain. You seen and felt the earth tremble. You were told not to do this, not to make anything like that. You was up there in the mountain. You saw him, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the 70 elders. You don't have no excuse for not knowing, you heard it yourself. And he was wroth with them; and so, he waxed hot and threw down the tables of stone. And then this is what he said to Israel, you sinned a great sin. I am talking about that book. That's what I am talking about.
That book, Doc, I don't know any easier way to tell you. Every sperm, every bit of the mucus of sperm that has ever been in anybody's body or everybody that ever will be here is in that book, because we all come from, we are all the offspring of God. Everybody's name is there. Now do you see it now? Everybody, the unborn and everybody else that ever will be is in that Book. Moses could see even his own name. Do you see what I mean in that Book. Am I getting it over to you? Now that's the reason why I think ____ everybody. I know everybody. And no creature is hid from his sight. I say I been everywhere, I have seen everybody, I know everybody. Somebody said, 'well, he's blowing at the big gate.' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) 'He's trying to make somebody think he's something; he don't know me. And who am I?' I say, I have been to heaven, been to hell, been all everywhere. And I don't have to glorify this flesh. I know everybody, and always somebody trying to hold me still while they tell me something about something they seen. And if you monkeying with any of this stuff, you know what you got there? You got one of these numbers. You got one of these numbers, just right up there in your forehead. That's what you got, 'Oh, no.' That's alright. You got it. Your father is the devil, and I said so. Oh, yes. Some of you out there just as negative as I see it. I see it, and I'm trying to tell you about it. Now read.
Reader, All of this people have
Dr. Kinley: Moses said, all this people have blasphemed. They have sinned a great sin.
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Reader: and have made them idols of gold
Dr. Kinley: and see the golden calf there. Read.
Reader: yet now
Dr. Kinley: yet now
Reader: if thou will forgive their sins
Dr. Kinley: Now he is talking to him now; he's talking to God. Yet now, if thou wilt. Do?
Reader: forgive their sins
Dr. Kinley: forgive their sins
Reader: and if not
Dr. Kinley: and if you won't forgive their sins
Reader: blot me
Dr. Kinley: blot me
Reader: I pray thee.
Dr. Kinley: I pray thee
Reader: out of thy book
Dr. Kinley: out of thy book
Reader: which thou has written
Dr. Kinley: which Moses wrote
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: The Book of Jasher. Blot me, I pray thee, out of the book which thou has written. And now, what did He say to him?
Reader: And Yahweh said unto Moses
Dr. Kinley: And Yahweh said unto Moses
Reader: whosoever
Dr. Kinley: whosoever
Reader: has sinned against me
Dr. Kinley: has sinned against me. That's the fellow I am gonna blot out of this book. Listen. And if he blots you out, you are out. I don't care nothing about what Pope John said. The papers of the saints are not in order. You get the point? Whosoever sinned against me, him, that's the body that's in, all that sperm and everything don't make no difference as it goes into making up a man. If they ever been here, whosoever sins against me, him, I'll blot him out. I will blot him out of the book of the upright or the Book of Jasher. And I will put that fix on the boy. Ayah Asher Ayah. Now what do you want? Do you want the J; do you want the six? Oh reverend told us down the street about that. Now, do you se (see?) it now? Well now, look. Here it is again. the same book. Do you remember when the disciples, it it 9 or 9:30. (THE RESPONSE IS NOT AUDIBLE.) You remember one time when the Messiah sent them out to cast out devils, and here they come back just rejoicing. Oh, oh. Don't rejoice about that, but rather because your names are written in that book. Is that right?
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Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Is that what he told them? If you don't think so, we will read it. Alright now. Do you see that?
Now over here in the 20th chapter of Revelation in the first prayer. Look at it. Read it.
Reader: And I saw the dead
Dr. Kinley: And I saw the dead. John is on the Isle of Patmos, and he is looking. Read. Just like Moses. He said, I saw the dead.
Reader: small and great
Dr. Kinley: small and great. Stretched out.
Reader: stand before Yahweh
Dr. Kinley: Wait a minute. The great, the priest, and the king. The great and the small those that sat in the audience and those that preached and what not. I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Yahweh.
Reader: and the books were open
Dr. Kinley: Now here we go again. And the books were open. Listen. Paul said in the third chapter of 2nd Corinthians, now listen folks. Explaining these things is necessary. You are our epistle. You are our epistle written in our hearts. Now if you take all of us epistles and put us together, just like you take Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the books of the prophets and put them together, then you got epistles there bound into a book. Then he said, 'lo I come in the volume of the book, as it is written of me to do thy will O Christ. He said He taketh away the First Covenant and had to take it away because of the New Covenant. Now here comes the devil along with eating Lord's Suppers, baptizing, and all and all. He's denying that He took it away. Now, whosoever it is that sinneth against me. Whosoever it was that didn't do what He told them when they was doing that, He blotted them out.
Now whoever it is over here that's denying that He moved it by bringing it back, him will I blot out. You get the point?
Now it said, the books were opened. All of the epistles. Ye are our epistles, read and known of all men. Every time you make a jump like that and do something, say, 'we are gonna minister the Lord's Supper.' Sure enough. It's read and known of all men. Now what you do and what you don't, now we walk by faith and not by sight. 'What are you gonna do?' I am not gonna do none of that. 'Well, what are you doing?' I am fasting.
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They got that all tangled up so fast. Say, 'I ain't eating nothing today.' And then turn right back around. You say that he said, don't touch back here in the garden. Now you are telling us to touch that which is done away with and that's the thing that's going to kill you. Cause in this dispensation, we don't eat none of this. We fast. And eat all the Lamb you can hold. He said, 'I thought you said you were fasting?' We are. We are not eating it with that concept.
The devil, his cover is too short. He can't, you're supposed to be away from that. Now he's not gonna deceive you. Now if you will look at the Roman Catholic Church, that's all they got. They don't have nothing else but epistles, natural as they can be. Look at the Protestant Churches, they don't have nothing else. they just as natural as they can be. That's the reason why they can't get together. The Baptists can't get with the Methodists and Roman Catholics. Now you got in your book that the Mother of Harlots. 'What do yo mean by Mother of Harlots.' The Roman Catholics. Protestantism come right out them; she's the Mother of them.
Now Pope Paul is running around trying to get reconciled. Never be. Not in this world. Now, it said the books were opened. I am looking right at you and when you get us all together then that makes up the one book. It said, the books was opened. Alright read.
Reader: and another book was opened
Dr. Kinley: and another book. You're an epistle, you're an epistle, you're an epistle and you're an epistle. You get us all into it, then we make up that another book. Alright read.
Reader: which is the Book of Life
Dr. Kinley: Now, which is the Book of Life or the Book of the Upright or the book which He has written. And everybody's in it. Alright read. We'll prove that.
Reader: And the dead was judged out of
Dr. Kinley: And the dead was judged of that which is written in the book. Alright read.
Reader: which were written in the book according to their works
Dr. Kinley: according to their works. Alright read on. I am in a hurry.
Reader: and the sea gave up the dead which were in it
Dr. Kinley: Huh?
Reader: and the sea gave up the dead
Dr. Kinley: and the sea gave up the dead, the multitudes, the kings. Gave up the dead that was in it. Alright, read.
Reader: and the dead and sheol delivered up the dead
Dr. Kinley: death and hell or sheol
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Reader: which were in them
Dr. Kinley: The dead was in them. Somebody said, 'well, you'll die and go to hell.' Yes, hell delivered up, nobody in hell. I don't care where you live. Say, 'well look, so and so died and in hell he lifted up his eyes.' Well, yeah, she delivered up,. Death and hell delivered the dead that were in them. Read.
Reader: And they were judged every man
Dr. Kinley: and they were judged every man according to their works. Read on.
Reader: And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire
Dr. Kinley: And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire
Reader: this is the second death.
Dr. Kinley: This is the second death. Read.
Reader: and whosoever was not found written in the Book of life.
Dr. Kinley: Whosoever sins against me, him will I blot out of the book. Now the Pope you read that is putting somebody, him that sins against me. Him will I blot out of the book. Alright, read.
Reader: and cast into the lake of fire
Dr. Kinley: Read a bit more. Read
Reader: and whosoever
Dr. Kinley: and whosoever. Whosoever what?
Reader: was not found written in the book of life
Dr. Kinley: Whosoever is not found in the book. Wait a minute. whosoever sinned against Him; He blotted him out. and whosoever was not found written in the book that He blotted out.
Reader: was cast into the lake of fire.
Dr. Kinley: Now do you see that? Now you didn't hear anything about it; now you have to take this first five books and put them together with this revelation to complete the story. Now if I come and bring the books, the commentaries on that, there isn't a one of them that knows anything about it. but they can stand up and say I am wrong. 'I don't see that like that.' Do you see what I mean?
Now listen. But this day up here, Ayah Asher Ayah. Now in the first chapter of Revelation, I want you to read this; and then I am through. the first chapter of Revelation about the fifth verse.
Reader: and from Yahshua the Messiah
Dr. Kinley: and from Yahshua the Messiah
Reader: who is the faithful witness
Dr. Kinley: who is the faithful witness
Reader: and the first begotten of the dead
Dr. Kinley: and the first begotten of the dead
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Reader: and the ruler of the kings of the earth
Dr. Kinley: and the ruler of the kings of the earth
Reader: unto him that loved us
Dr. Kinley: unto him that loved us
Reader: and washed us from our sins
Dr. Kinley: and washed us from our sins in his own blood
Reader: and washed us from our sins in his own blood
Dr. Kinley: and washed us from our sins in his own blood
Reader: And has made us kings and priests
Dr. Kinley: And has made us kings and priests
Reader: unto Yahweh his father
Dr. Kinley: unto Yahweh, his father. Listen. He is the King of the kings. Whole nations of priests and a king. Everybody's a king and everybody's a priest. Everybody. And everybody is a king and a priest. What's the reason why I said they don't make them no bigger than me. Priests? They don't make them no bigger than me. they don't make them no bigger than you; you're a king. A royal priesthood and a whole nation of kings and priests and then He is the King of all of the kings and the High Priest of all of them. Now do you see what I am talking about?
There's one to each one of them tribes. Asher. Each one of them tribes, you'll find 12 of them, and each one of them has a priest and a king. A whole nation of them, and then He is the King of the kings.
So then this Asher. Ayah Asher Ayah. I will be what I will to be. Whatever he wants to be. He created everything. He created it to be just what it is. And it didn't have to evolve from one thing to the other. No siree. He made it what He wanted it to be. And nobody couldn't do nothing about it then, and can't do nothing about it now.
Have I made that real clear?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: I will be what I will to be. 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians, you don't have to read it, will show you that Paul said, then he who hath put all things under his feet and he, Yahshua, must reign until all things are put under his feet. And then when all things are put under his feet, let me put it this way: when He resurrected from the dead, he said, all power in heaven and all that is in earth is given unto my hands. Is that right?
Student Body: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: And now Paul said he was exalted Him on up and given Him a name above every name that is named not only here, but in heaven too. O boy. I'll tell you. Ain't that wonderful, It said, He must rule, not the pope, but He must rule. He just must rule until He that put all things under Him till He delivers this kingdom to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh. And then, He will be all in all. The Ultimate. Did you see what I mean?
Now I want Richard Carr. Anybody wants to go home, they can do it; but this will only take a minute. Now I want you, Richard, to come up here. Stand up here, and Dr. Dennis will take your picture here. Come on, Dr. Gross. Get right in the middle of it.
Now Sister Mary Gross, please. Now thank you. Now that's what I want. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS). Now that's all that.
Now what we are doing, we're packing up. Fixing up. So it can be in the book. Now, Dr. Gross, we have your picture; and Dr. Harris' and my picture we have. We already have them, but those, now, Richard, you will be in our album that you are the president of the State of Ohio. That's why we had your picture taken. Now, but you didn't get to come; so then, we took your picture so that when we put it in the album it will be just the same and all lined up, so that everybody will know who he is too.
Sister Marion, come up here. We are gonna have an announcement. Now Sister Marion you have to come back. Now, one stand on one side and another one on the other one, I am not responsible how these pictures turn out. I never could take a good picture.
Now did we miss anybody? I believe you; come on. Now, I'll tell you what it's all about here in the book. Now these are, well, I'll tell you now. These are new ministers that have been added to the Springfield group.
Now is there any more that's been licensed right recently Dr. Gil?
Oliver Gill: Dr. Ray Ferguson. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)
Dr. Kinley: Get up from there. ____ ____ Now get in there Gil. Come on out Richard; get back here.
Someone: Can you get them all on there?
Dr. Kinley: I don't know whether he can or not. Now, is there anybody else wants to be in trouble? Now we've got your picture as a group, in both places tonight, and everybody is going to be in it and what not. And it will be in an album. Now there are you; and that's what we just read all about. So now you got it. So, that's all.
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15) 1967 CONVENTION: JULY 17,1967; 7:30-10 PM
PAUL AND THE EUNUCHS
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Springfield, Ohio
recorded by Burbank Mitchell on reel to reel recorder
transferred to 1 90 minute cassette by Geraldine Rothstein
Catalog #: 67.O7l7 P
transcribed by Gerry Rothstein
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTES
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, uh, see, you understand, do you understand.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable.
5. words in CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber.
First Speaker: Dewey McCoy.
Moderator: At this time I would like to introduce the next speaker tonight. The next speaker will be the founder and dean of this school, Dr. Henry C. Kinley. Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thanks ever so much. Now I'm sure all of you enjoyed Dr. Dewey McCoy.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: And I followed him very, very carefully. And he told you things that the average preacher out here does not know. ____ ____. And he got it out of the Bible too. It's in everybody's Bible. Now he can't get something out of there, out of the Bible that's not in it. And I wanna say that all of these Bibles we've got over here for the purist. We've got Roman Catholic Bibles right over here on this table, got a couple of 'em. And before we leave this place, with this meeting we're gonna give you just a convention, so you at least have that much learned, that some of you do not know. We're gonna give you two Roman Catholic Bibles, one imprimatured by Cardinal Stritch and another imprimatured by Cardinal Gibbons, and we're gonna let you read them books and see if they read alike. Did you hear what I said?
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Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Now we got 'em right over here. And we're gonna let you read what they say about Peter being the rock and about the church built upon Peter, and that Peter was in Rome, and he's buried right in under the altar in the Vatican. And that's why they have built Saint Peter's there, on the rock, Peter's seat. Now we're gonna let you read that that's a lie out of their Bibles and also out of yours, whatever kind you choose to have. Think that'd be alright? Let you read out of there. We're gonna prove it to you, just like Doctor McCoy proved to you about the Gentiles being grafted in according to the purpose of God. He said he didn't have time to finish that sermon. That's what he said. And he read in Acts of Apostles and he read here and there. That's in everybody's Bible too. And now they wanna argue about Peter commanding Cornelius to be baptized, talked about the eunuch. And when you're talking about the eunuch you haven't seen a preacher in your life, I've never heard of one, that knew anything at all about what he told you, talking about baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. No, none of the apostles, none of them could baptize a eunuch. Paul was a eunuch. And listen, he was of the tribe of Benjamin and Benjamin was the youngest son of Jacob. Now none of the other eleven.., could not baptize him, they couldn't do anything with him. He didn't have to consult with them about the Holy Ghost nor nothing. That's why he didn't appeal to flesh and blood because if he did he would have to going to his older brothers, ____ ____ ____, because Yahweh is dealing with these twelve heads, individually and personally Himself. Do you understand what I mean by that? I mean that Peter nor none of 'em couldn't preach to Paul nothing. Well the question is why? Because He is an apostle in the purpose hisself, just like Peter was. Now who's dealing with Peter? Do you see? Get it now? So He can't go back up there to discuss nothing with them. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Cause it's Yahweh dealing with those twelve apostles, and it is not one apostle dealing with another. Did I clarify that?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: And he had a meeting there, after he saw the vision in the highway, wasn't nobody there of the apostles to advise him or nothing. And he didn't go about it to consult with all of the apostles. And he went on then into Arabia, after going on down to Damascus. And then from Damascus he went into Arabia. 'What'd you go there for?' Now just to stick you finger in your ear and run and hoop and holler and scream and stomp and spit and sweat, and don't know nothing about what you're reading out of the Bible, it don't mean nothing. Do you see that? Well what did he go into Arabia for? We're not arguing about that he didn't go there, you can read that out of the Bible. What'd he go there for? Why? Because in Arabia, which is Mount Sinai here, there's where He dealt with the twelve tribes of Israel, Mount Sinai is in Arabia. That's where Moses brought the Children of Israel up into Arabia, all the twelve tribes of 'em. Now do you understand that? Well then this is where the twelve apostles, the twelve heads of the tribes have to receive... Now do you see that? So now here Paul, he's an apostle and he goes into Arabia instead of going back into Jerusalem. Now look. The top of Mount Sinai covered with that cloud was allegorical to Jerusalem above.
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____ ____ ____ ____ so now he didn't go back to natural Jerusalem here, where he got the letters of authority from the High Priest to go out there and to persecute and put the people to death and put 'em in prison and what not. He can't go back there, but he's got to come back in here. Then when he writes to Timothy, this is what he says about that: he said this was the pillar and the ground of the truth. And he said I don't ____ ____ ____ this letter, so that you will know how to behave yourself when you come into the congregation or the house of the Lord. Then you respect who you received it from because he was an apostle and an authority just like any of the rest of 'em, and he was not a whit behind the chiefest of 'em. You name 'em. Fact of the matter Paul was the only one of 'em that was educated. Now I told you about that the other day.
And Peter and John went up in the temple, and after they give 'em a good lashing and put 'em in jail and then.., well that miracle of healing that man, and then when they brought 'em out, the 70 of the Sanhedrin Council brought 'em out, said, 'now we're in a crack, what do we do now?' Said, 'that's a notable miracle. We can't deny it.' Get it now? And when they set 'em before the Council and when they heard 'em talk, they perceived that they was ignorant and unlearned men. That's in your Book.
But when they brought this champion in, the Apostle Paul was educated at the feet of Gamaliel under the Sanhedrin Council. They knew that boy had an education. And when they brought him before Felix, the Governor, Festus, the High Priest and King Agrippa, and said, 'much learning, boy, makes you mad, you're beside yourself.' 'No, that's not what it's all about.' Now that, the other boys, what their troubles was. Now here's one with an education. And they said, 'much learning, got you all beside yourself.' See that now? That boy wasn't ignorant and so then he went on to work and they tell him this, 'listen, much learning.' Said, 'that's not what my troubles is.' Said, 'God made a fool out of me,' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) while I was on the way to Damascus.' Ain't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. Said, 'you know you boys give me a ____ letters of authority.' I didn't have to ask now of you nothing about it, none of the apostles and none of the saints in ____. Said, '____ ____ have to ask any of the ____, and I had your permission to go out there and put 'em in, in the jail.' And now God brings him in on in. And look, here's what I wanna tell you about that. Paul was a eunuch too, just like the Ethiopian eunuch. And he could not go into the congregation of the assembly. Now the preachers, they don't know about them things, they don't know nothing about it. 'Yes, I have.., don't we have stacks of Bible commentators, encyclopedias, and don't you get it in front of ____ ____ and read 'em and who's saying what. Don't, don't it happen. None of them apostles could baptize that Ethiopian eunuch, not a one of 'em including the Apostle Paul, just couldn't be baptizing nobody. Couldn't be, couldn't enter into the congregation of the assembly. He couldn't, Paul couldn't enter into the congregation of the assembly, and neither could the Ethiopian eunuch. Now he had been up to Jerusalem to worship. Now he had to worship outside of the
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congregation of the assembly because a eunuch couldn't have no children. Now if he couldn't have no children, didn't have any seed, what business has he got in there dictating to somebody else? Didn't have no seed in ____. There's always somebody that don't have no children, wanna tell somebody else how to raise their children. (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) Do you see what I mean? Do you get it now? Just a busy body and meddling in other folks business in other words. Do you get that? That's plain and simple.
And listen, the Ethiopian eunuch, now the commentators say that he was a Gentile. Yeah, we, we can go over there and get the book and read it to you. And right in that same, read this out of there, said that they that were scattered abroad, and the apostles, they remained in Jerusalem, and the rest of the folks, they were scattered abroad, the deacons. Wasn't, wasn't not one of the apostles, not one of the eleven, went any where at all. And Paul was a man that was, Saul was a man that was persecuting 'em and run 'em out of there. It's all right there in the Bible. 8th chapter of Acts. He run 'em, and he was in.., pursuing 'em, when he saw the vision and the revelation. And when he spoke before the King, the Governor and the Priest, he said, 'All these Jews, they know me, they know how I have put to death, they know how when Stephen was stoned and put to death, how I held a raiment of them that slew him and gave my permission and consent for them to silence him.' Said, 'Now all the Jews know that.' And what they oughta been doing, themselves that sent him out there, if they was executing the office of the indispensable duty, it was their place according to the law to go out there and stone any, anybody who dared to have broke the law, committed adultery or other things. And them hypocrites they set back and sent him, making a fool out of him. And he saw Him on the highway. Saw Him when He was revealed to him. 'Now do I go back to Jerusalem and tell 'em about it?' 'No, just ____ ____.' ____ what street he went on too. Straight Street. (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGH) ____ ____ ____ ____. Wonderful. Now listen. He's just admitted to the congregation of the assembly himself.
Now this covenant that God had made with the eunuch, and this Ethiopian eunuch, look, can't you see the man has got some ____ to use with the man. He was coming from up in Jerusalem when Philip met him. He'd been up there worshipping. Why didn't they tell him about it and baptize him up there? You see what I mean? He's on his way home back there, Ethiopia, and coming from up there, why didn't they tell him about it up there? Something wrong somewhere.
Oh, I tell you children, there's just so much confusion, so much ignorance and so many people out there trying to preach something for a buck, for a dollar, and you gullible setting around listening to all that junk. Twisting the Bible all up, in any kinda way to makes it fit to their imagination. And the reason it's that, it's that way, because they don't know how to put it together like it ought to be according to the purpose of God: making Paul dispute something in his epistle to the Romans, then going in, in the same man's epistle in the Corinthians and making him dispute, dispute his own self. Go over in Jude the epistle and make, or over in the epistle of Peter and make Paul and Peter argue around. Read it over in the biography, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and got Paul, the Messiah and Peter
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and Messiah all estranged from one another. And then you all are gullible enough to set out there and listen to hog wash as that.
Now listen they know ____ ____ is not out there in the world. The Messiah said they was gonna be out here and we read to you that John said they was already out here. Now look, let me ask you this question. Where would you go to look for deception if it was not among the so called (so-called?) Christian people? Every time you go among the sinners, they tell you plain, 'Now I'm not a Christian.' They don't confess to be. And you have to go among the so called in order to get the ____, that's what you ____, hypocrites. You don't go into the bathroom and the bathtub and fish in the bathtub when you know good and well there ain't no fish in there. You go out there and fish in the lake or someplace, or in the river. You look like a fool setting up with that bathtub. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) It's just that simple. Said the Kingdom of God is likened unto a net which when it was cast forth into the sea, it brought forth of every kind. Isn't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And they drew it to the shore. Well, now look what you've got. The Kingdom of God is likened unto a net which when it is cast forth into the sea it bought forth of everybody or in ____, or it brought forth of every kind. And then they drew it to shore. Somebody said, 'there's a water moccasin.' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now the good, they put in a vessel, and the water moccasin, they throwed him back. Ain't that right? Get the point? There's a water moccasin, water moccasin. I ____ that. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) You get me now? Here comes up an old toad, jumping around, here's a eel, here's a catfish, and here's some sticks and some stones, all kinds of fish, so the good ones they took and put 'em in a vessel. Now this is a parable.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now here you come and get out into the sea or the world, the sea which hath ____. Isn't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: It's the multitudes. And when it was brought forth, it brought forth of every kind. It brought forth a Baptist, the Methodist and the Presbyterians, Camelites (Carmelites?) and Dunkards and all that kinda thing. It brought forth the frogs... What do you call them kinda ____? Between ____. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)
Student: Scavengers.
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PAUL AND THE EUNUCHS
Dr. Kinley: Scavengers. You know what I've ____. Just throw him back. No, hold it, hold it, hold it. Said, 'you got Reverend.' Throw him on back. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Just throw him back. Throw him back. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Yes sir. ____ ____ ____ throw it back. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Ain't it wonderful? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Yes, now that's a fact. That's what he's talking about. Now you cannot throw him back. Don't care whose pastor he is. Wonderful, ain't it?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now, I'm not gonna detain you tonight. I know you're tired and I am too. And I don't want you to be afraid to come to these meetings because you have heard that we are holding you overtime and all of this, this, that, and the other. But I would have you to know that you have worked for nearly 2000 years go by
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: Not yet, And as Paul said, he said, forever learning, of this sort are they that crept into houses, listen, and lead captive silly women, that's what he told Timothy, just burdened down with sin, lead captive silly women. ____ listen, ever learning, going to Sunday School and going to Church all the time, ever learning and can't learn nothing.
Now don't you girls think that Paul was talking about you, when he said you crept into houses and lead captive silly women. That ain't what he's talking about. Here's these synagogues out here and this synagogue and that synagogue in this city, and that synagogue in that city, and the congregations are categorized as women. And they have crept in there and just lead 'em captive. Silly, silly women just laid down in their sins because they did not understand the purpose and neither did they understand the dispensation in which they were living. They were ____ and talking about these hawks and went out there, don't understand what it's all about and for a buck, that's a dollar. They lead 'em captive, and you got all the mess this Babylon or confusion out here. Now you'll have to learn how to throw them tadpoles and them crawfish, them water moccasins, and them sticks, and them stones, you're gonna have to learn how to throw 'em back. It don't make no difference if it is your pastor. We throwing back the Most Holy father, and you got the Pope. Whoop. So now we're gonna conclude here. Now I wanna make this announcement, now this is announcement.
(THE ORIGINAL REEL RECORDING ENDED HERE)
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16) 1967 CONVENTION: JULY 18,1967; 7:30-10 PM
HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Salvation Army Hall
Springfield, Ohio
recorded by Burbank Mitchell on reel to reel recorder
transferred to 1 90 minute audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
Catalog #: 67.0718 P
transcribed by Geraldine Rothstein
first proofreading: Mary Colucci
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: Michael Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
First Speaker: Leonard Wells Snellbaker
Second Speaker: Dr. Henry C. Kinley
Dr. Kinley: Of the Roman Catholic church to pray for him that he might be granted his request, he was sick. Now I wrote the book, copyrighted it in 1961. And you remember he died in June, listen I mean June the third, not June the sixth. Now June the sixth is Pentecost. You read about it in Acts of Apostles, second chapter. And he wanted to live to see Pentecost or the sixth day of June, 1963. Now I don't have no way of rubbing something out that I wrote in '61, I don't have no way of rubbing it out and correcting it in '63. And now may I humbly ask you with these popes that's putting them in heaven, taking them out, that has got the ____, so they say.
Now listen closely to hear what I'm gonna say, I'm gonna try for a while to keep from blowing up, like you done. Now he's real warm about that. Now there they are with the keys to bind on the earth and lose on the earth and bind in heaven and lose in heaven. Now here they are, people are paying them money now. 40 dollars cheap, take it out of your social security, old age pensions. Do it some
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
kinda way. Get it on credit, pay it in installments, but anyhow you better get it paid. Is that right?
Student Body: Yes sir. That's right.
Dr. Kinley: To get you out. Now here is 550 million, the population of the so called Roman Catholic church in 1961, according to the figures, the World Telegraph Almanac, according to the compiled statistics of their own making. 550 million people that's been putting people in and getting 'em out and depending on him, praying for him that he might live to see June the sixth, 1963. And me by myself, all by myself, I said he must die before June the 6th. And I wrote it in this book in 1961, and I don't have no way of rubbing it out and it's still in there. That man died June the third, 1963. Now you can shoot your mouth out with me or anybody all you want to. You can say I don't know what I'm talking about, just cut up and carry on all you please, but you can't argue with the truth. You cannot argue with the truth. That's a fact.
Now you know that one of my sons preached this afternoon, Clifford Eugene Kinley. Would you mind coming up here? Now that's him, in case you don't know him. Now this man, in the City of Springfield, what used to be called the Springfield City Hospital, was burned all down his body here. It took 63 grafts on his body. He laid out there in Springfield City Hospital and every doctor out there said that he had to die. That was in 1944.
Clifford Kinley: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: At the time I was in Cincinnati, Ohio. Now here's this idiot again. Remember I talked about Pope John the 23rd die. Told you when he was going to pass out. Now then everybody that's in medicology said he had to die in Springfield. That's a matter of records. And they did put a screen around his bed, and you could walk in that room and just smell flesh, how it had been burned from here on down. A hot ladle of metal tilted and dumped that right down his.., and burned him. Now every doctor in town, some of 'em were in the Second World War. And they said that during that time when they flew those planes, they never seen anybody burned like that and live; and he must die, just can't live like that. Am I standing up here telling a lie?
Clifford Kinley: No, that's about right.
Dr. Kinley: And I said, 'no he won't die.' That's 1944. And he's not quite dead yet. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Go set down. Now you're always running around, saying, 'well if you were so whatever it is you wanna call it, show us a sign, if you're so great.' Well I told you there wasn't nothing to me. Believe me, I did. And if there isn't anything to me and I got sense enough to know that, now don't you know, I know there ain't nothing to you. (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) Just come on clean with it.
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Alright, now you have others setting right in this audience, right under the sound of my voice. The wife, the son, and the doctor, medical doctor, setting right in this audience. They will verify and confirm what I am fixing to say to you. I'm talking about Farley, William Farley. He was put in the hospital in Cincinnati, was operated on more than once, and then he was sent home to die. And his doctor, along with those doctors down there, said that he had to die. And told his wife. Would you mind standing up? Whoever William Farley's wife is, if she's here, would you mind standing up? Now if the son is here would you mind standing up? Or if there's any other of the folks, relatives of him, would you mind standing up? Now would the doctor please stand up? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) He said he had to die. Now I can't come in front of an audience like this and tell these kinda lies. Sit down please, and thank you. Now I wanna ask you doc, did he die?
Dr. Harris: No sir. He lived about 9 or 10 years after.
Dr. Kinley: There is his doctor. Did he die, wife?
Mrs. Farley: No.
Dr. Kinley: Did he die, son?
Son: No.
Dr. Kinley: Well listen, don't you start no stuff with me. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Neither one of 'em, none of 'em. Get the point? We don't want no sass.
Now here we had a debate with a Church of Christ man. Church of Christ. And we got a Church of Christ right here in the City of Springfield. And now this Church of Christ man, he agreed to fight it out with me and the bargain was: the winner take all; in other words all of you people that belong to this class, if the Church of Christ could whip me and show me in the scriptures, and show us in the scriptures, you don't have to bother with the rest of them, all you have to do is lick me, cause if you can like me, you got it made. Wasn't that the bargain? Would you mind getting up? Let them folks see you. This is him. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's him. Thank you very much.
And now there was another Church of Christ there. And these boys, Doctor Fred Allen and Doctor Burbank Mitchell, went down there and got something started and they took it up. So then we took the class and went over there, told 'em in no uncertain terms, 'listen, I do not want to debate with you. Now I'll tell you why I don't want to debate with you, because you are not honest and for that reason I don't wanna be bothered with you. I don't want to waste my time proving...' 'Oh no, no, we're honest, this is a church, this is the Church that Christ built. Now we know we're right.' That's what they said. So then we fumbled around there and finally, after they kept on, I agreed to go down and make some arrangements. And over to his place where he was top dog, they had a.., he couldn't be there that night, and so they sent another one over. His name was Moore. And Moore
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
argued and argued and argued. And said shut up, I hadn't said a thing, sat back there like a child. Now you people were there and you are my witness. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And said, 'you don't know what you're talking about, you, you people are, you better go on and get straightened up here,' and all that kinda thing and all, say, 'your founder and dean, he's ignorant and all you people that following him is ignorant.' I'm setting there, right there in the audience, supposed to be there for a debate. Now there's people setting right here in this audience that was there with me. They saw it. And he belligerently, after he had got done, they give me ten minutes. And he took up all the time and when he got through, he walked out the door, he wouldn't even sit there, walked on out the door. Now that man did that and you people were right there with me.
And now, that was on Adams Street and when we go down on Figaro, I show you how stupid people are, when we go down on Figaro to make arrangements for the debate after they kept on after me... And you heard me tell 'em right on the phone, you setting there in the house when told 'em, 'don't wanna debate with you.' When we get over there to Brother Hogan's Church. This is Brother Williams. When we get over to Brother Hogan's church where we.., they kept after me to have a debate, there was this man that walked out the door. Nope, nope, nope, nope. Now there he was in my seat. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) These people that was there already know this. There he was setting up there in a wheelchair, paralyzed, can't move, can't get up. He ain't gonna walk out this trip. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) He's gonna stay seated this time. (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) He's will stay seated this trip whether he wants to or not. And then that other fellow Hogan, just to show you how stupid and ignorant people are, he had the nerve to stand up there by the wheelchair by a man that has defied God to His face.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And here he is standing up there by that wheelchair, me setting out there in the audience, said, 'now you got a place to do your stuff. You're such a great, divine healer,' and incidentally to keep him some company, there was another woman setting there paralyzed. 'Now you come on up and do your number. You're so great.' Could you imagine somebody just bold enough to stand up there over a man that God had put in a wheelchair for rebuking the truth, paralyzed, and spitting in God's face like that, and then he invited Him to 'come up and do your number, do your stuff.' You were setting there. And this is what he said, 'I know one of you folks that knows better than that junk you are talking about.' He's talking about Williams. That man was educated, got all kinds of encyclopedia. 'I know one back there that knows better than that junk that you're talking about.' And he come with us because he was convinced of the truth. Is that right?
LaSalle Williams: That's a fact. That's true.
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Dr. Kinley: Now look, here's a man in a wheelchair that has a whole big audience out there, around four hundred people or more with him. And that man said there. Now this man is supposed to know better. This man accepted the truth. And to prove to that man, Hogan, the power of God, that man setting right there in that chair... And everybody in Los Angeles connected with the school knows that I am telling the truth. I don't have the nerve and the gall to tell this in front of your face and in front of the faces and tell a bare faced lie. That man was in the hospital. What was wrong with him Dr. Harris?
Dr. Harris: He had a paralytic stroke through high blood pressure, ____ ____.
Dr. Kinley: There you are. Doctor Harris went to see him. Now here's the other fellow in the chair. Paralytic stroke. 'Now if you're so smart, you come and get this one.' Here's this one, had to go to the hospital, he didn't even know where he was. Actually did not know where he was. Did you?
LaSalle Williams: No, for six days.
Dr. Kinley: For six days. Now his wife, she belongs over there to the Church of God, I mean to the Church of Christ, where he belonged, come out of. They're separated. She's come to see him and when she got to see him, he sent word about her to tell us that he was in the hospital. Is that almost right?
LaSalle Williams: That's correct.
Dr. Kinley: And she wouldn't even tell us that he was in the hospital. And I said ____ ____ you go over and look in the jail and if he's not in jail, look in the hospital. And they found him in the hospital. Right? And so.., what I'm saying to you. Now here's a man that was ____ and the man was in a wheelchair. There's a man that accepted the truth and there's a man that rejected it. Now whether God can heal the man or not, here he is, he's here. The other fellow's still in a wheelchair, that is if he's living.
I wanna warn you. I wanna caution you. I wanna tell you something. You go back over the records and every last one of 'em that ever raised up against me... Now I didn't, I'm not asking you to believe it. It don't make no difference to me whether you do or not. Get the point? That ever.., now what I'm talking about, is that, that it is the real genuine thing in me that is preaching the gospel. And listen the sign will follow. ____. I have ____. I have proof. And every last one that ever refuted, they're either in the cemetery... And there's been some of 'em, right in town, Springfield, Ohio, in the cemetery. It's always ____ ____ the purpose. You see what I mean?
Now in Columbus, Ohio, in the hospital over there, in the hospitals in Cincinnati, in the hospital in Dayton. The records speak for themself. We have people setting under the sound of my voice that in the City Hospital here in town, over in Columbus, and down in Cincinnati and down in the school. They said that people had cancer. That's what they said they had. There's some in Springfield that said
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
they had cancer. May I ask you to come here that have had these things: heart trouble and other things. Would you mind standing up on your feet? Thank you very much. Now go and look at the records. Now that's why they're here. And now some other stupe and some other idiot out there say, 'show us a sign.' Now listen folks, let's don't kid ourselves. I can't do nothing, I can't heal nobody. And there's nobody on earth that can heal anybody. And there never has been nobody, not on this earth, that can heal anybody, including Jesus.
Student Body: Right, alright.
Dr. Kinley (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) ' ____ ____ ____. ____ ____ ____, don't you tell me.' I know all ____ sticking around ____. But, now this is what he said. Now I.., if it's wrong, he said it, and I will read it to you if you want me to out of any Bible, and we just got plenty of 'em. We got Roman Catholic Bibles and Hebrew Bibles, Jehovah Witnesses Bibles, the Roman Catholic Bible and the Oxford Bible and then here we got right up to date 1967 King James Version, 1967. Now all of 'em say that. This is what He said. 'I can of ownself do nothing. My father in Me, He doeth the works.' Now I said that to say this. Now you know good and well that if there was any healing done to these people that have stood up, I did not do it. And if the Father was not in me, it could not have been done through me. Now you can argue your heads off about it. Say anything you wanna say. But that's the ____, that's the way it is.
'Well, why are you talking like that?' All the preachers, they say I'm wrong. I'm not the least bit worried about it, and you know why? The Messiah went around healing all.., of all of these kinds of diseases because it was His Father in Him that had smitten 'em with the disease, and it was His Father in Him that healed 'em. And now the point I wanna get to you.., get through to you. I'm trying to teach in simplicity, trying to teach down where any idiot can understand, where there won't be no excuses. Now My Father in me He doeth the works. Now if there's anything done, it will have to be the Father. I told you that all the preachers said that I was wrong. They say it everywhere, no secret about it. Now I wonder why it is that they can't do none of these things. They all got their father in 'em, they all got the Holy Ghost, so they say. Wonder why they can't do nothing. Now listen folks, I have told you from 1935 right straight down the line, everybody of any importance, in and out of the world, I mean in and out of the United States, I told you what was going to happen to them, everybody of any importance. I told you that John F. Kennedy would be nominated, elected and assassinated. Many of you setting in here heard me tell you that. Now am I lying?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Now that's the President of the United States. Now I'm saying these things so you can see that they're all over the place, they don't have no ____. Now there's John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States of America. There's Pope John, the religious king of the world. And here I am, Henry Clifford Kinley, the little, black, nappy headed, round shouldered idiot that everybody says is wrong.
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I wrote the book and sent it to Krushev (Khrushchev?). And Krushev jumped down. Every time they wanted to catch up with him, the Kremlin did, we got the clipping in the paper too, he was reading a book. The next thing you know, Krushev was excused. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)
We sent one to Ben Gurion in Israel. We got a reply that said he'd received it. And the next thing you know in the newspaper, you could have read it if you wanted to, Ben Gurion jumped down. Wonder what's the matter? Do you see what I mean?
And yet and still the people all around telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't understand what I'm talking about. I told you that there would be earthquakes.
I told you in 1961, even drew it on the board ____ you have in the school, and told you about the function and operation of the sun, moon, and stars. And I told you February 4, 1962, and those planets would be in conjunction. Now what I mean by conjunction, they would be lined up. Let me see if I can point out a little better what I'm talking about, so you can see. The vessels in this sanctuary. See how they're lined up here. Now the planets was in conjunction, was lined up. February 4, 1962. The sun and the earth was to control the seasons, the years. That's the first time that they been lined up that way since man known anything about light and history. And that was February 4, 1962, and I told you about it in '61. And I told you from that time on down until the present, and I had to tell you in depth, the weather conditions would change.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you have been on earth, I don't care where you were, it don't make no difference, they were, they have been changed. Now you wanna argue about that? Now we're confronting you with a reality, I'm talking ____ ____. I told you that the undulation of the waters and the controlling of the waves and all, the sea and the waves would be rolling.
Now listen, and I told you there would be earthquakes in divers places. There would be an earthquake in Alaska, 27th of March. I showed it in the Book and told you what's going on all around the world.
For 35 years, I did do that. And yet somebody looks at me and they say, 'well, that idiot don't know what he's talking about.' Now how can you say that? You know I can't go up there and tamper with the sun, moon, and stars. Seismologists set instruments in the mountains and tell you that.., when the earth vibrates. I knew that the earthquake was gonna be and I went and laid down in my bed, they tried to get me up. Um um. 'Shut the door and get out, I don't wanna talk to you.' Earthquake happened, frightened everybody around there. Mansions ____ ____, head over heels and out the door. Now I am I lying? Cracked the walls and stuff. Now I told you about when it was gonna be and everything.
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Now here's why I'm telling you what I'm telling you. I want you to know why I'm telling: is because I am going by a definite God given plan. I know what the purpose of God is from start to finish, backwards and forwards. I know what's supposed to happen, when it's supposed to happen, how it's supposed to happen and all of that. And listen, to you, if you wasn't so bright, I can show you, show you so you can understand.
Now, just to show you, there's a man ____ ____ ____ again. You heard what he said. Now that same doctor, he discovered that eternal life was not carried around in a pill box. And he's done some of the same things I have done. Done the same identical thing. That's why that doctor is here. And now I want you to know he's not the only doctor, but because he discovered these things, he has written to the American Medical Association and he went on through the physical body, the physical anatomy and the physiology of it, and pointed out and showed 'em why thus and so forth and so on. They won't even answer his letters. The mountain. You know why? Because some great big notorious Henry Gray, or some big shot doctor, Mayo clinic or some place, they didn't discover it. Now he went to Mahara Medical College, graduated and practiced medicine for ten years. And then come in this school where this idiot don't know nothing, this stupe that everybody says is wrong. And in this school he learned something about the origin and the secrets of life and how man was constructed in his psychic forces and in his physical body in correlation to God that created that man. Now they can't argue with it, they can't dispute with it. Doesn't make any difference whether it's women or men, they can't argue. Everybody, women and men, got 33 vertebraes down his spinal column. You count ____ ____. Stand them up, see how many you got down there. 12 ribs on each side. Don't make no difference whether he's Roman Catholic or Protestant. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Get the point? You got 'em. It don't make a difference whether male or female, you get 'em. And that man was made in the likeness and image of God.
Now it'd be real stupid if you went through every cell, every fiber, every tissue, every sinew, every bone in your body and analyzed it, and then you get up in front of the people and say that we don't know what we're talking about. Now it would be much better if you'd go on out the door and keep your mouth shut, then people wouldn't know how big a fool you was. You see the point.
Now here's a man, he was associated with the Roman Catholic Church too, he and his wife's... Now that man is a laboratory technician, works down there with Doctor Robert Harris. Would you mind Brother Ronald Griggs standing up? This is his beloved wife. Sister Griggs, would mind standing up? Thank you. Now these people are searching, investigating and everything. They don't take anything for granted. They go in there and they work with it day and night. Einstein, Genau and Bach or Princeton, Harvard, and Washington. You know who Albert Einstein is, don't you? They say, when they was confronted with this, nothing they could do with it.
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SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: They threw this book out of the library, they didn't want it in there at all. This book, they don't want it in there.
Now we had company here this afternoon and I told you, I took the Roman Catholic Bible, took the Roman Catholic Bible, who ever's got that other one over there, there it is, and I read it, they say that this is the Bible or the Vulgate, translated by Jerome. And it is as near right as any of the rest of 'em.
Now this is Jehovah's Witnesses's New World translation. And I say they're wrong. I say the Roman Catholics is wrong and every time we try to tell somebody that's knocking on somebody's door about Jehovah's Witness, they say, 'no, you haven't got none of our people in your school.' Now would you mind standing up? This is Doctor Dennis Droulard. There's some more of 'em, If there's any more of 'em in here, stand up. There he is. And here's this, this is your Bible: The New World translation.
Now here is their translation and here is another that is closest, God fearing translation, that is closest so they say. This is Roman Catholic too, the celebrated Old Testament. Now if I take these books and turn these pages in here and let you see when they were copyrighted. Would you mind? Now this is some preaching I'm doing now. This is some preaching and anybody in town can understand. Now listen you come to running and hooping and hollering and stomping and spitting and sweating and quoting verses and chapters in the Bible. I can do that as well as anybody in town. There ain't nobody in Springfield ____ ____. And there is nobody in town or out of town for that matter knows any more about what's in any of these Bibles than I do. Take your choice.
I have said I challenge the world and I took down Roman Catholic boys, you see this one, but I'm talking about the big shot in the Roman Catholic Church, O'Brien, Bishop. And not only that he is supposed to be Dean of ____ of Roman Catholic dogma and ____. And whipped him sore until tears run down that man's cheeks. He went on back in the lavatory, went on back there, come on out of there and come up here in front of these people and he wouldn't do it, he wouldn't come up from in the back seat back there.
Student: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: And listen for 35 years I have met preacher after preacher. I have all the churches that you can say anything about. You have seen it. I demonstrated it. I don't take no advantage of anybody, give 'em an opportunity to defend themselves. Now listen at me real good and close. Yahshua the Messiah said, I come in My Father's name, I come to do the works and the will of My Father. He said, now if I do not do it, don't you believe Me. And I say the same thing to you, if I do not do the works, don't you believe. That ought to be fair. That oughta be fair.
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There's ____ ____ ____, just come from Cleveland. Did you now? And didn't your lady that you work for, tell you that she, you could go to Cleveland, and see that woman, the doctors turned her out of hospital and said she can't get well. Am I lying? And I told you what to tell her, didn't I?
Student: That very day.
Dr. Kinley: Because ____ ____ ____. Now she's supposed to be dead. If you talk to her today, she's died since you talked to her.
Student: Talked to her this morning.
Dr. Kinley: Now do you see what I'm talking about. And case after case... Now I know, it's kinda tough for me too, when I walk up and look in the looking glass, (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) and I think back over of my family and their reputation (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) and I look at the pigmentation of skin and all them different kinda things. I don't blame 'em. (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGH) Well the Messiah, this is what He said. The scriptures said He wasn't all that nice to look at. The scriptures said, if you don't think it said. But He walked up to 'em and this is what He said: unless you believe that I am Him, you will die in your sins. He who? Moses said, a prophet shall the Lord thy God raise up unto thee like unto me of your brethren, him shall you hear. Now you have to go to the law and you have to go to the testimony, so then the testimony confirmed the prophecy, said, virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
Student Body: No.
Student: Immanuel.
Dr. Kinley: Immanuel. That's right. Now she conceived and brought forth that Son and He walked up to the Jew, and He said, now listen unless you believe that I am He that Moses and the prophets said would come, you'll just die in your sins. You get it now? Now God have said all of these things to men. And I tell you I can't do nothing of myself, I told you that the Messiah said He couldn't. Then you know if I admit that I can't do it, you know it must have been Him. And let me show you how stupid we can be. People come around and say, 'well ____ ____ ____,' and say, 'I don't think I'll make it this time.' Say, 'what's the matter boy? What's the matter girl?' Said, 'I never heard nothing like this before.' Her eyes all bucked and scared and all that kinda thing. All excited and all. Said, 'blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.' Whoop, it got me this trip. Somebody say, 'well now wait a minute, wait a minute, get the doctor down here.' Doctor said.., he'd tiptoe out and tell the family, say, 'well, ah, there ain't nothing I can do for her.' Said, 'Now listen, you heard about that fellow Henry Clifford Kinley, I believe they call him.' They didn't ask whether I was negro or what not. 'Please get him down here.' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) I'm just telling you what's going on. Telling you what's true.
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Now here sits one right here. This one. Would you mind standing up? I want the folks to see you. Now she's of Jewish descent and ____ ____. That's Sister Estelle Ellenberg. Automobile run into her, and it knocked her clear on down the street. Put her in the hospital. First one thing then another. There she is.
There's Brother Jimmy Yates, I don't know whether he's in here or not. If he ain't he ought to be.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Is he back there?
Someone: No, not yet.
Dr. Kinley: But his wife's here. Would you mind getting up please? Now she's ____ ____ ____. He was all crippled up, unconscious, in the hospital, ____ and ____ different places and spinal column. Bones broken, didn't know nothing.
Mrs Yates: Didn't know a thing.
Dr. Kinley: Would mind setting down? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's his wife. Doctor said, 'I don't know, I can't promise you nothing.' Is that what he said? Now his mother is here, his mother. Would you, see whether his mother is around anywhere. That's alright, take your seat. Would you mind standing up?
Nida Belle Cox: I'm up.
Dr. Kinley: I see she's standing up. Now I wrote this woman a letter, while he was in a state and condition like that and said that I will take care of it and bring him right on out. Did I say that or am I lying? ____ ____ ____ from the hospital. Now you don't go around cutting up like that. I could stand here and you get the car and you set in the seat, it's hard and just wear you out. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) ____ ____ ____ ____. Now why to the other fella. He can't do nothing but run around and say I'm wrong. There's nothing he can do. And I tell you what's going on all over the world, day by day.
In 1935 I told you about the Second World War and everything that was gonna take place. And then sit down and wrote Franklin Delano Roosevelt a letter. He's almost your president. I just wanna let you know that we have direct communication with the biggest shots there is on earth. They know. And told him that the, Japan would attack Pearl Harbor. And sent it to the White House and asked him, now if you will, Franklin, if there is a Bureau of Scientific Investigation under the jurisdiction of the federal government, would you please turn my letter over to them with your recommendations that they make an investigation of our works. We can tell what is going on all over the world. And he didn't reply to me. He sent the letter to Smithsonian Institute. Now we got a copy of the letter I sent him and we've got a copy of the reply on file. Doctor Carl F. Gross, are those letters in your file?
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Dr. Carl F. Gross: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: This is what the Smithsonian Institute said, that they had received a letter by way of the president that Franklin Delano Roosevelt asked them to make an investigation of our work, but they didn't have no funds, they decided to make no further investigation. Now if you would this evening, they're telling us something: 'look who we are, we're not chasing around the country fooling with no bunch of idiots, they don't know nothing about Pearl Harbor. We have yet the Pentagon and we know what it's all about.' Now I'm asking you. Did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes they did it. And now we received at Wright Aeronautical Incorporation, they said sit down. Shut down all the machines, sit down and relax, we're going to hear the communication on the public address system under the Truman administration from the White House about the cessation of hostilities. Everybody in that plant shut the.., shut down all over, biggest plant there was in the world. And here I had an office at that time in the basement of the shop down there. And when everything was all shut down, one of the supervisors in that plant, couldn't have known me too long, walked up into my office and he said to me, he said, 'well, ____ ____.' Said, 'well, I understand that we are supposed to hear the message by the way of the White House about the war being over. Now what about that?' I said, 'no it won't be over. You're not going to get no message, just might as well go back to work. There will be no communication from the White House, not today.' Now that man is setting right here. Now would that man get up. Now was I lying?
Fred Allen, Sr.: Not at all.
Dr. Kinley: Didn't I tell the truth about it?
Fred Allen, Sr.: Sure did.
Dr. Kinley: Was the war over that day.
Fred Allen, Sr.: You said that.
Dr. Kinley: If you think he and I both are lying, get the history book and see. Thank you Doctor Allen.
Well now here's what I'm saying to you folks. Now I, I've had this ____ this year. And let me tell you about this before I get it because I've got to see to it that you get these messages. And it takes just such to save your soul, quoting chapters and verses and all this thing and arguing and chewing the rage around about things, they're not gonna do no good unless you prove it. Now I could begin in Los Angeles and I told you just exactly what was going to happen day by day about it. Where, when, how, who's was going to be involved. And when I
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landed in Springfield Ohio, I continued to tell you what was happening. Who was doing the job and ____ ____, day by day. Now this, this is Tuesday night. They don't have school on Thursday night, I tell what's gonna happen between time for us to come back. And I tell you, 'now if it don't happen like that, like I tell you, don't come back, and I'm a liar just like everybody else.' And it happened just like we said. Now we want you to know that it is possible for you to know something about it and you're gonna have to know something about these things in order to save your soul.
Now this is 1967. 1960 was the end and now God has given you seven years. This is 1967, and the Messiah said He would cut this off, this age, unless it was short.., 24th chapter of Matthew, yes I do, anything I can say to you, I can put my finger on it chapter and verse. I don't need to argue with nobody about nothing and I'm not begging anybody to believe it. I was told, was sent to tell you the message and it's up to you to believe or disbelieve. And I already know, and I'm not the least bit nervous about it, I know the world is lost and they're going to stay lost. And this is what happened before, and this is in the scriptures, and if you don't think it is, I'll read: behold you despisers, wonder and perish, I'll work a work in your days that you shall not believe though a man declare it unto you. And when He worked right on down and He fulfilled that thing, got down to the cross to suffer with Him and to stick with Him. The scripture said this, the shepherd shall be sent and the flock scattered. Pete said this, said, 'though all the rest of 'em go back home, I'm not gonna do it, I'm going to stick with you.' He said, 'now, you'll deny me three times before the cock crows.' 'Oh no, not me.' And when some of the big boys come along and the folks out there and ____ ____, 'well, you, you're like one of 'em I saw with Him.' Said, 'aren't you one of them.' 'No, I don't know Him.' 'Wasn't you one of 'em. Didn't I see you with Him out there?' 'No, I told you, I didn't know the man.' Another one come by and say, 'hey, did you know that man, saw with him.' 'Say listen, I done told you what are you talking about?' (MAKES THE SOUND OF A COCK CROWING) (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Yes indeed.
And everybody comes along and jump on me. Said, 'how many folks you got in your church.' 'I ain't got none cause I don't have no church.' And they look around and say, 'look here,' said, 'well, you do have a few folks.' ____ And all them folks he had, they're all running out on him. They left him there and got a ____. And I would say this to you, as to them that acknowledged that night, you see what happened don't you? And if you're going to compare this with that in the end of this age as it was with that one, we got far too many here now. We got far too many right in this room right now. So you don't need to judge it by the crowds, don't need to judge it by the crowds.
Now I know the time's going along fast and all those different kinda things and I am not saying this just to be throwing off on somebody. I'm here to help everybody. If you're wrong, I'm here to help you. If you're right, I'm still here and I need you to help me. But now listen, let me tell you something. Now Williams, I don't care nothing about you and your so called Church of Christ. I don't have no compromising to make with 'em, none of 'em: the Roman Catholics and no
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HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS
Protestants either, I don't have ____. Everybody looks just alike to me. And if I didn't tell you that it's wrong I'd be worse than ____ and I would be a liar about Him sending me. I'm just sorry that the situation has to be like that. And I taught and fought 'em all the way across this country, International Council of Churches that met in New Delhi, and we do have the clippings, they had our book and they confessed and admitted and they even had to put it in the paper ____ ____ that they was wrong. The Roman Catholic church admitted and confessed that they was wrong. Now that's the way that it is. Now there's not need to argue about it. It's your soul. You said, 'listen,' just like Doctor Leonard preached it to you, that's dangerous. And ____ down ____ and they shot me down. That's dangerous. And I'm ____ get away, but I'm sacrificing my life for you and I'm telling you and your preacher and in your face and I do want you to know that 55 million Protestants and Methodists and Baptist, Roman Catholic and what have you. Don't take no advantage of nobody. You set in your chairs with 'em. Let them set right up there, not because I don't love the people, if I didn't, I wouldn't take a chance on my life like that. And you've seen it, you've been in the ____ and we do have someone from the Baptist church. Were you a pastor of the Baptist church?
Student: Yes I was.
Dr. Kinley: Get it down to some folks and let them see what kinda liar you were. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Everybody in this place was a total idiot. Dr. Harris you were talking about that, that all these here just haven't been confronted with the truth, all of it. ____ ____, he's kinda associated with there with them. Well now look if they see these boys getting whipped and spanked and beat up and they're setting up here, you see out of the various different churches. Now don't you know somebody will run and ____ like that, if something wrong with 'em. Something wrong with you. Then look we don't ____ to lying, we don't try to change nothing around in no Bible and won't let you do it. Now I can't get something out of there, that's not in it.
And any idiot... now listen at what I'm saying, you know that of all the different sects and cults and creeds, you know as well as I do, any idiot from anywhere knows they all can't be right. You get the point? And you know that there is a God and He does have a have a purpose. Now somebody, somewhere misunderstands the purpose.
Now listen folks, listen. Before I preach, not tonight, what you call preaching, I didn't intend to ____, the vibration in this place you couldn't understand, you couldn't hear. I want you to realize, I want to you to thoroughly understand. I'm not out here wasting breath and all those different kinda things. I do you want to hear what I have to say, and what the rest of these ministers that are sitting under the sound of my voice, I want you to hear what they have to say. So we been working on this. So that we can get down to tell you some of the things that is in your Bible so that you can understand, that, no, they didn't tell you about. And that's our ____ ____ ____ ____. You have in the 13th chapter of Revelation and the 18th verse in all these Bibles, says, 'here is wisdom let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is
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six hundred three score and six. That's the 13th chapter of Revelation and verse 18. Now the Roman Catholics, we read to you this afternoon what they said about it. Didn't we read it?
Student Body: Right
Dr. Kinley: We read it out of their Bible. And they said that they thought it belonged on Nero. I agree. But pagan Rome or political Rome passed it over from Nero to papal Rome. Now everybody all over the world knows that, so then if it belonged on Nero. N E R O N. Now if you take the numerical letter of equivalents, the way they do, this is pagan Rome. You can see N stands for 50, R 200, O 6, N 50, C 100, come on down, S 60, A has no value, R 200, if you add it up. Here is wisdom, let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast for it is the number of a man. Time is up. 6 6 6.
Now here it is Saturnia comes close to saying satan there. Saturn. This is.., S stands for 60, T stands for 40, U stands for 6, R stands for 200. 6 6 6. 6 6 6.
This is in the stars. Here is vicarius, vicar, filii dei, translated Vicar the Son of God. In Roman numbers V stands for 5, 1 (I?) equals one, and C stands for 100, A and so forth and right on down. All you have to do is count it up. Count it up, 6 6 6. Papal crown tiara comes up in the high priest. First crown ring on there, vicarious (vicarius?), second filii, the last dei, the Son of Perdition, the beast with the same number as the man. ____
Now listen folks, we have brought it all the way down through the ages and dispensations of time. We're gonna trace it on down. We're gonna put it on Cain and bring it right on down through there and put it down there where it belongs and because no Roman Catholic and no Protestant can deny. They don't want to look in the library. They don't want to be bothered with it. They say I'm a bad fella and all like that. Now I come to preach the gospel to you to help you save your soul.
(END OF THE REEL RECORDING)
Dr. Kinley: ...paid me a dime for preaching. And I been all over this country, day and night and lost sleep. In hail, sleet, rain and snow for 35 years. Nobody ever has paid me a dime. And I wouldn't do it if it wasn't that I was conscious of the Messiah or God has sent me to preach the gospel to you. I just c.., I wouldn't do it. Now you can dispute it and argue all you want to, I want to make you a promise. Now I think that they've covered up the sound effects. After they did that... Can you hear what I say back there.?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Is it all., can you hear me from up here?
Student Body: Yes.
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Dr. Kinley: ____ ____. Now this is what we gonna do. Now tomorrow night, we're gonna take the ____ down and we're gonna go back in the scriptures and come on down from Genesis to Revelation. We're not gonna miss nothing, not gonna miss nobody, and on down to Revelation. And we are gonna show you that that Bible can be explained so that any idiot can understand. Now that's a fact. Now I've showed you now, we've got the works to prove it, we got this one to prove it, all around the world that ____ the doctor over there, the Red Sea and everything, and we told you what's going on right over there now. ____ in various chapters, and we're telling you now it's in the end of the age, it's in the end of the world. It's up to you to save your soul, the people here from this on the generations. So now you come on back tomorrow night, tomorrow afternoon and tomorrow night. And then we will continue, chapter and verse, we are gonna go all the way back, all the way back to Genesis 1:1 before this conference is over and from tonight, we'll have to start ____ because it had to be a continuation, a step at a time, and we promise to seal you in your forehead with the Father's name. That's Yahweh, it is not God, God's a title. Yahweh is the name. Yahshua is the Son. John ____ ____ ____ that the Father's name in their foreheads, now how can we preach without seeing how ____ ____, it can't be done, ____ ____ ____. But we want the truth. ____ right with this, and if you got the devil in you ____. Don't we don't care nothing about title, bring your preacher, deacon and all, even an angel drop down from heaven, we're against it. And we're gonna follow the pattern, we must get clean. And I don't believe you can do that. Do you all?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: You think somebody can get up here and ____ God.
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Come on down, bring your friends, now there's a break. Bring your friends, and if you're just gonna bring you friends, you won't have but a few come along with you; but bring your enemies too. Now that oughta fill this place up. Let's stand and go on home. Thank you now.
(TAPE ENDS)
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17) 1967 CONVENTION: JULY 19,1967; 2 - 4-30 PM
PREPARATION FOR A CONVENTION
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Springfield, Ohio
recorded by Burbank Mitchell on reel to reel recording
transferred to 1 90 minute audio cassette
transcribed by Geraldine Rothstein
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
First Speaker: Dr. Carl F. Gross (California)
Second Speaker: Willie Jones (Alabama)
Moderator: At this time I would like to introduce to you the next speaker this afternoon. The next speaker this afternoon will be the founder and dean of this institute, Dr. Henry C. Kinley, who's also the author of the book, God, the Archetype, Original Pattern of the Universe. Dr. Henry C. Kinley from Los Angeles, California.
Dr. Kinley: Greetings in the bonds of peace. I'm happy to be here and always to impart to you some spiritual knowledge, some profound knowledge, irrefutable knowledge of God. Now I want.., now I've got a surprise for you. And I wanna tell you what it is. Now every time you turn around we are laboring, always laboring, getting out of this book and what not. Now I want to tell you that the things that we want to tell you about and I refuse to try to tell you about it and having ____ and what not and it makes no difference whether you set out ____ over here or over there, why this is all a jumbled up mess. Now what I want to tell you about is not a jumbled up mess. And I do want you to hear, I want you to understand what I'm talking about. Now here's why. First of all because I know that you haven't heard nothing about it. And I know that you don't know nothing about it. Somebody said, 'who me?' Yeah you. (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGH) I've asked that ____ up here. Well now listen, listen close now. Now I'm not gonna worry with those and you know that we got about a half hour
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PREPARATION FOR A CONVENTION
or something like that. So now I'm gonna give you some time this afternoon to go home and get your dinner or your supper and get it over with, and get back here and please come on back.
I'm warning you now, and I'm telling you now and you obey me this trip. Get all of that done and face and all washed, and come right back, and come back. Now we wanna go into some of those deep things that we have been talking about that we are going to do to seal you in your forehead. And I don't mean that some cherub sitting up on the side of your head. That's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm taking (talking?) about. But now we're gonna begin to wrestle to seal you in your forehead or in your mind, reveal unto you some of the great deep secrets that will have to come from the Holy Spirit. Now they'll just have to come and you haven't heard too much and don't think too much about it. And I have not told you too much about it. So then we're gonna work with that tonight. Now have I, you remember I told you last night when you left here that we would start tonight, not this afternoon, tonight. So I'm not gonna start this afternoon. I'm gonna start tonight.
Now Dr. Jones just got through telling you about the bellyache and first one thing and then another and alibis and excuses. Now quite a few people have approached me since I have been here. They read these articles in the paper and so forth and so on. And they have been talking about the many healings that I have performed. And some are interested in healing, divine healing so that they can get about and go on their work and all. Now look, I'm wanna tell you something about that. Everybody that's walking around on earth, and I'm not interested in what you got, everybody, this is not the body. This is not your body, and if you don't think, if you don't think that God, that I'm just been trying to tell you about, will, I didn't say maybe, and I do mean everybody, not just some folks. And I'm not interested in what it is you, that you got. How ____ hurts, none of that. I wanna tell you this in no uncertain terms: that God has done healed everybody. And if you don't believe that, you haven't been of this teaching.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: You don't know nothing about it. ____ ____ been going on. Now you remember I said everybody. Not interested in what you got. Now we wanna tell you about that. And we been talking about the Age of Immortality and all those kinda things. And don't you believe it yet? People will run up here and say, 'look,' hunt me up for a ____, since I been here. Corner me off and ask me about these things and tell me about their affliction and what not. Well what do you think I been talking about? That's all I been talking about. Been trying to persuade you to believe that it is coming for everybody that believes.
Student Body: That's right.
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17) 1967 CONVENTION: JULY 19,1967; 2 - 4:30 PM
PREPARATION FOR A CONVENTION
Dr. Kinley: Everybody. Now then, if we're not gonna talk about that to everybody we just might as well shut up and close the thing down and go on home and forget about it. That's right. But now we are gonna stop, ____ ____ ____ ____, got the government got the thing a little bit better and that's why ____ back there. Moved around and sit over there. It's better than it was. It could be better. Tests and everybody in here hear what I say? ____ ____ ____. Does my voice echo and vibrate? When I turn my head so you can hear on that side over there? Back there? When I turn my head over here, can you hear around this way. Well I don't wanna talk to myself. Can you hear it in the back?
Student: Can't hear very well.
Dr. Kinley: Not so good bad there?
Student: When you turn your head that way doc, we don't hear you too well.
Dr. Kinley: When I turn my head this way?
Student: Right.
Dr. Kinley: I heard that there's some of you that ____ turn you head first one way, then another in all ____ and a lotta this thing that has been said has echoed and vibrated and I didn't hear 'em myself and I know you didn't. So we don't want to waste this time. And that's the reason why I am ____ to show it to you. Now you come back, we'll see you, we're gonna let you go now. And come on back this evening, bring all your friends and enemies. And you come on back.
But one more thing I want to say to you. When this place is capacitated or filled up we have to ____ the vibration.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: We'll have to. And you will hear better when it's filled. Then what you can.., when there's a lotta empty seats in the back, first one place and another. So now you be here, bring all of your friends, fill it up. And I've warned you to begin with, we wanna go into things that you know nothing about the lecture. Bring a.., Sister Hogan, are you here? (AN AIRPLANE FLIES OVER HEARD (OVERHEAD?)) ____ ____ ____ ____. Okay, well that'll take care of it. Get some kind of ____ so we can get up on the stage ____, cause we want everybody to see what we're gonna do, what we're gonna work with. So come and bring your friends. Now listen, we don't intend to get off of the line of the Bible. So bring your Bibles, and now here's some Bibles up here. We don't care what kind they are- So if you don't have one, you can have some of these, some of these Bibles here. But listen, they cost money, please put 'em back. I'd don't have no money to buy no Bible with. And so these Bibles, they were there and they belong to the school. Please put 'em back. If you don't have one, you can have it. And then you come tonight and try, if you brought a Bible, or get one from the book store tonight. ____ your Bible ____. Bring it on with you, there's always somebody want to say what that
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PREPARATION FOR A CONVENTION
man says is not in the Bible. So now you come and bring it, try to be on time and all like that. And give us some time to tell you what we want to tell you.
Now if the seats is too hard or you got some complaint of some kind there and there are hard, bring a pillow or something else, cause I want the attention up here. Get comfortable, now if it goes to hurting then ____ ____. Try to get as comfortable as you can so that your attention can be focused on what we are going to tell you about because there are things that have not been revealed to the majority of the people in the world. Now is that clear? Are you all clear? So then let us conclude being dismissed. Doctor Harris has a statement to make there.
Dr. Harris: Dr. Kinley I just wanted to....
Page 4
18) SEPTEMBER, 1967: REVELATION OF YAHSHUA FROM HEAVEN
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
recorded by Dr. Carl F. Gross on reel to reel recorder
transferred to audio cassette by Gerry Rothstein
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 67.09 RY
transcribed by Geoffery Warren
first proofreading: Keith Gilkey
second proofreading: Michael Rothstein
third proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
fourth proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
SECOND SPEAKER: LaSalle Williams.
THIRD SPEAKER: Dr. Kinley.
SIDE 1:
Moderator: The author of the book, God the Archetype original pattern of the Universe. Dr. Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you. I know all of you enjoyed the preceding speakers. One thing I wanna say is, is this. If you noticed they said the same thing.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And they saw the same thing. They saw it eye to eye and face to face.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Just ____, and there was no division among. Now did you notice that?
Student Body: Right.
Page 1
18) SEPTEMBER, 1967: REVELATION OF YAHSHUA FROM HEAVEN
Dr. Kinley: Well now you know why? Is because they're looking at, they're looking at the same thing. Not making any mistakes about it. It's possible. Yes indeed, it's really possible.
You know I sit there and I thought about many things. One of the things I thought about is this: we could have the thing right in our face, look right at it and then don't see it or don't understand. Now to see a thing needs a understanding. Now there's some causes why people don't understand things. You know that? I've heard people say this, probabilities are you have too. 'Now if God wants me to see that, he'll have to show me,' and you looking right at it. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Now you see how stupid we can be? That's all there is for you to look at. Nothing else. No where you go, in or out of town. (STUDENT BODY AND DR. KINLEY LAUGH) Ain't that right? That's all there is.
Now, suppose I say this. Now we have been talking, we have been talking about the Revelation of Him from heaven; and I wanted to make sure that you understood that. And I'm saying to you, which some of you say, 'well I never saw a vision, I don't understand about visions.' Now Dr. Williams has stood there and explained it. But listen, just in case you have never seen one, you will see one. You got one coming and listen, you'll see it too. And you will be there, and you definitely will see it. If you haven't seen one, you will see one. Now somebody says, 'well, I don't believe in a ghost.' If you haven't seen a ghost, you will see a ghost. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Somebody said, 'well I don't believe it.' It don't make no difference, you'll see it anyhow. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) How did I do? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Yes, indeed. Now that's what that is. Now that's what we've been trying to tell you. We've been trying our best to tell you about such things as that, so that you won't be confused about it.
Now another thing I wanna mention here is this. Now Dr. Williams told you about it and so also didn't Dr. Lawford. They told you what a vision was. So in, in just plain understandable words, I, I, you know I don't like to think that people are that stupid. Really, I don't, I really don't like to think that people that stupid. Where you can look at a man and you got 33 vertebrae in your spinal column, don't make a difference whether you're male or female, but there is such a thing as mental derangement, or mental deficiency, weak minded and all them kinda things but it's it's a little, it's better to kinda keep your mouth shut and cover it up a little bit, than it is to expose your ignorance. I hate awful bad for everybody up in here to see something but me. It doesn't speak so well of me. Look like I'm almost ready for the Camarillo.3 Now that's right. I wouldn't like to think that I was that stupid or stupider than everybody else in here. And I'm sure you wouldn't.
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3 Camarillo is a mental institution.
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18) SEPTEMBER, 1967: REVELATION OF YAHSHUA FROM HEAVEN
Now let's say this. Now we have, as Brother Williams just stated, we have a convention in the state of Ohio, and what I have tried to do in the past year is to carry you into the depths, the real depths of everything. And now we've laid a background and a foundation to carry you into those things. Now you resent us getting up here every time and we turn around and tell you about the same old text and the same old thing all the time. You don't like that. Then when we tell you about something that's pertaining to the same thing, but a different manifestation of it, and an analogy, you said, you don't see it. Well, there's nothing else we can do but come right back and tell you the same thing we tell you over and over and over and over and over. We're gonna tell you over and over, and you gonna say, over and over you don't see it. We can't make no progress that way. Just can't make no progress.
Now the thing is happening under our nose right now that I tried to tell you about. If you have any faith at all, or any confidence or any... Now if you don't have no faith and no confidence, if you've got just a type of sense, just, just, just a little touch of sense, just plain horse sense; you can almost call it no sense. That's right. Now when you look into these dispensations and ages as Dr. Williams has told you about. Now it wasn't long from the creation of Adam here, down to the flood. It wasn't too long. And it wasn't so long from here down to the crucifixion. And it wasn't so long from here up to where we are now. Yet we might think that a thousand years, a couple thousand years is a long time. But what I am trying to say is, the thing I'm trying to get over to you is this: now if you're not too stupid you can see if something happened within 1,656 years from here. 2,381 from here to that. You can see that there's something due to happen sometime real soon.
Student Body: Right, right.
Dr. Kinley: Now you can be stupid and see that. You can even see that without looking. You can see that with your eyes shut. Now you know why I said that? Now I'm gonna show you. Now you look up here. Now we've been talking about Moses, and the Children of Israel, and we've been talking about Pharaoh down here in Egypt and how they put the blood on each side of the lintel of the door, and it was dark down there. Well, here He comes along and He fulfills it. He didn't do this, if you'd question whether this was so or not. Get the point? Then as we go on through this whole entire chart. This I.., now we definitely sing a song: "Is your all on the altar of sacrifice laid?" Is that what we sing?
Student Body: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: We've got a song is your all on the alt... Listen, your all is on there whether you know it or not. You may not know it but it's there. Now let me prove it to you. Any scientist will tell you that there's fire in the center of the earth. Somebody says, ____ ____ ____. Well if you wanna argue, tell me then where the volcano eruptions come from, if there wasn't fire there. See that fire? And the Earth is the altar upon which you are on. Now then, the Earth that you're upon, there's a fire in the center of the Earth and you're upon the Earth. Now that's no different, that's no different than this altar here, and the fire in that grate. No different. And you are upon the earth. All of you too. Is that right?
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Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: But now when we're singing the song, we're not thinking about that. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Ain't that right? Singing, "is your all..." Yes, you're all on there. Everything. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) We mean something else as a rule by what we thought, talking about in the song, but it's all on there. Now isn't, now isn't that simple? Simple analogy. Now, watch my thought. Now that lamb was roasted with fire there, and ate it. Now we talk about Pharaoh down in Egypt. But down here we come up, this is just like, let me put it this way. Now I'm going back; see this... everything made.., there ain't nothing else, nothing here, nowhere, all the way through nothing but just repetition, just over and over. That's all this here by. Nothing else but that. Absolutely, positively nothing else but that. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's all there is now. So I don't have no other alternative other than to come right back and tell you about the same thing all the time. And it's just doing nothing but functions in the realm of time. Now I said that to say this. Then if you could see that if we was talking about Pharaoh, Pharaoh is a king. And this was of the 18th dynasty. Now a fellow walked up to me and asked me about.., say the boy just kinda twisted up on it, they don't know whether it's the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, or 18th, or 19th dynasty. Said, 'which do you say that it is?' I said, 'well look, we'll fix it so you wont (won't?) have to come back no more. And so you can tell.' Now three times six is 18. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And then if three times six is 18, this has got to be the 18th dynasty. And three times six is on, is that mark of the beast. Ain't that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: So then if Pharaoh is the devil down here in the land. Then it's got to be the 18th dynasty. So we just fixed it so there won't be no more squabbling about it. Now you see it fixed up right here, Vicarious (Vicarius?) Filii Dei. Here's the man that that hath wisdom here, here is wisdom, let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast for it's the number of a man and his number threescore six hundred... 666. Three times six is 18. But that's.., by adding this plate up and down. Then when you take it over the other way, 666. It's 18 over this way. And you remember satan had that woman bound over like this for 18 years. All bent over like this and He healed her on the Sabbath day and the devil just kicked about it, you loosed her on the Sabbath day. That's that three times six, that 18 when satan is bound there in Luke. Well now don't you see that the Children of Israel was down in bondage down here. Don't you see that now? Can't you see that? So you don't, really don't need real good sense to see things like that.
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18) SEPTEMBER, 1967: REVELATION OF YAHSHUA FROM HEAVEN
Alright, now let me show you this and here's what I'm talking about. Then we're going, we're gonna go on home. I'm not gonna keep you overtime; not tonight. You can in fact quit now. Yes, indeed. And let me tell you this. I know every time some of you stay out, I know when you get home you gonna catch hell. I know that. Some of your wife, they won't come, then the man comes, he ain't home just on time. Don't want you to come in the first place. And it's true with the husband too. And I know that, I know the problems and all that you have to go through and all. I don't wanna abuse nobody, because I have to go through the same problems. You are.., I'm charged with you. You are the household of faith. And Paul said, he that provideth not for his own household is worst than an infidel. I have to give you something to eat. I have to take care of you. I've got to keep you well dressed, and well groomed with the truth. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Yes, well fed. We, don't want no anemic thing, under weight and all that kinda thing. We wanna give you the real genuine thing. So you'll have enough so when you get home, ____ ____ ____ ____.
Now let me say this, real quick, now what's happening as of now. I mean now. This year nineteen sixty six, seven. This is nothing but a repetition all the way through here. You've seen it plain this, this year. And now you could just set up and go sound asleep. Overlook it. Overlook that just like you do all the rest of it. Now this is a trying time, really trying time. Nothing much in the world right. People are blind, they can't see that this here man down here. What's his name?
Student: Nasser
Dr. Kinley: Now you don't even have brains enough to see that Pharaoh could not retain the Children of Israel down there when it was time for 'em to be delivered. And that man is named. That king. Nasser ousted king Farouk. Nasser took his place. Now Farouk, if you look at Farouk and Pharaoh, you're not too far off. So now, did Pharaoh overtake and pursue and take the Israelites back in there?
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: Now there's nothing else for you to say. The name is put right in your mouth. There's nothing else you can say. Nothing. Well now it's come down in time for it to repeat itself and God has set 'em in there, those personalities in there, just like he set Moses and Aaron and Abraham. He set these personalities in there with the proper names to identify them and correlate them with the events that happened as of now. Now, I want you to look... What is this man that's Emperor up here?
Student: Hussein.
Dr. Kinley: What is his name?
Student Body: Moshe Dyan, Hussein.
Dr. Kinley: No, I didn't say here.
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Student: Moshe Dyan.
Dr. Kinley: No. That's, that's the General.
Student Body: Eschol, Eschol.
Dr. Kinley: Levi Eschol. He's the Emperor; in other words he's the king, Levi Eschol. Did you ever hear tell.., who is the Lev.., who is Levi?
Student Body: Priests.
Dr. Kinley: That's the Levitical priesthood. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now then, Eschol. Now do you know anything about Eschol? 14th chapter of Genesis; the 13th chapter of Numbers. Read it when you get home. It's too late now. You got to go home now. You got to go, that's all. So then.., now you'll find there in the 14th chapter of Genesis who Eschol is. And Eschol and Levi, then you'll find them hooked up there with Abraham, listen, and Melchizedek. So Levi hooked up with the Levitical priesthood and Eschol with King and... Well the man is a Levite and he is the king or he is the Emperor. I mean today, right now in Israel. Well now unless somebody brought you up on that, you wouldn't see it.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: And yet and still you're looking at it everyday, reading it in your papers. You see the point now? Now Moshe.., see how close to Moses we are? Moshe Dyan. Now that's the general; that's the fighting man, that fights for Israel, and guides their Armies. Do you see that? Now then here is Hussein. Hossein, Hussein in here. Then I want you to know that this Arabian in power. It's not just one little ____ thing, it's scattered out. Now we talk about Babylon. The land down there. Babylon, Media, and Persia, Did you ever, did you know that the Iraq, that's the old Persian Empire. Now when we take this man and standing in through here, look, we got Egypt, the Red sea, we got this in here that goes along with the chest cavity. And then we got this that goes along on the head cavity. And there it is set down there so which you can see it. And you know that that's... now we talked about the six days in here, you got a six day fight up there. And the people involved in it, you read the papers. And somebody saying, 'well I don't understand that.' Now isn't that enough to make you sick? That'll discourage somebody, and it's just no sense in you being that stupid. The thing it's doing nothing else but repeating. I wanna say this in conclusion. You know that Pope Paul the sixth visited Jerusalem. Now I don't wanna take up no time, I told you that we wanna get out of here on time. Now they received him through that Damascus gate. And he went on down into the city there. And on both sides of Jordan. He didn't go to Egypt, never went, set down in Egypt there. But now here's what I wanna tell you. Then he spoke at the U.N. Oh yes, I know he's been.., this is about the fifth trip. I could name 'em right straight down. Well, I will
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if you... If it will help you any. He first went to Jerusalem, then he went to Bombay, India, then he went to where...
Student Body: U.N.
Dr. Kinley: U.N., United States. And then he went where?
Student Body: Portugal.
Dr. Kinley: Portugal. That's right. That's where he went. Then he went to Turkey, where the earthquake was. Now this is what they, this is what he's saying. He saying now that he wants to go back, move the Holy See from Rome to Jerusalem and build the Holy See in Jerusalem. Now I want, I, I, I got to say this to you, but the clock is on me. But I wanna say this to you. You've heard a whole lot in your lifetime about the premillennium and the postmillennium: that Christ is gonna come back down through the sky and sit down on a throne in Jerusalem and rule a thousand years, before the fireworks, before the renovation of the earth by fire. Then you'll have the pre and the post. Somebody say, 'no, it's gonna be burnt first, and then He's gonna come.' Pre and post. Well now don't you see that the Pope of Rome is the God of this world. Don't you see that he's negotiated peace, talking about moving the Holy See to Rome, setting up the Vatican there, and people are stupid enough all over the world to believe it. Now with that 666 on him he can't do that, cause he can't go back into heaven because Jerusalem beneath is allegorical to Jerusalem above. Now so far as him coming jumping down sk.., can't you see that the spirit in you... He's coming to all of us, all the time, everyday if we can believe.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: They that look for Him will He appear the second time without sin unto salvation. He stands at the door and knocks. And here we stand looking up in the sky. Now we're talking about it being revealed from heaven. You will see that vision. It don't make no difference if you're down in the ground or where you are. You will see that vision, but you will not see looking at it with these eyes. When He ascended here, they were not looking at Him as a physical man ____ ____ ____. It don't make no sense. You try going out there and standing on a cloud in a mountain and see how far you get. They.., in other words they said He went in a vision, ____ in a vision. Here in like manner. It don't make no difference where you are. And then when that happens you'll be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The Word of God which He did that, as Dr. Williams told you, is quick and powerful, is sharper than a two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder the soul and the spirit. Now I'm trying my best to tell you that you're right down... Face it. You have to.., Dr. Williams told you 1960 was the end. Now you're seven years deep. God waiting on you seven years. Giving you a break, giving you a break. You still walking around talking about, 'I don't see it, I don't understand that.' I'm even speaking in the other tongue as the spirit gives utterance or you don't even know about your own language. And you oughta be able to tell the way that you all get along at home, and the way everybody is, and the devil, everything he seen is natural. That's all he can see, he can't see a thing
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spiritual. Why can't he see? Because he don't have no eyes to see with. Let's go home.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS)
Page 8
19) 1966 - 1968:
INTERCESSION; RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
audio recording received from Lamar Greer (# 07 A)
2 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 66-68 I
transcribed by Tom Gardner
first proofreading: Mike Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Previous Speaker: Billy Carrol
Dr. Kinley: I know all of you enjoyed Dr. Carrol and he did preach the things that pertaineth to eternal life. And I wanna say that he was not learning, he's already learned, found out about it, it.
While he was talking, I thought to myself that one of the reasons why that a lotta people don't wanna stick around or hang around in the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research is because they soon find out, they find out real soon about it too, that these people are not guessing down here. They found out that these people that get up here and speak they know what they're talking about, they're capable of proving it and anyone that don't know, now then it don't take long for them to learn. And that's just cold water on the thing, so they're not coming back. I'm speaking of more exclusively of the ministers, they're not gonna stick around. The Devil just can't stick around when you show him up, he's just not gonna stay there, because it's just to uncomfortable for him, but as long as some of 'em can come around and think that you don't know, they feel pretty.
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19) 1966 - 1968:
INTERCESSION; RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
And as I said before, I want everybody to realize one thing in particular, that this is not a Bible reading, scripture quoting contest, that's not what this is. Now we believe in going by the scriptures, we don't go by anything else other than the scriptures. Get the point? But we don't want to misapply, misconstrue as we had here, I believe it was last Sunday night... And you've heard me say many times, now I been classified as a bibliomaniac, a walking Bible. I told you many, many, many, many times that you could just open your Bible and start to reading and without looking, I'd tell you chapter and verse where you was reading at. And then here one day, God revealed to me I didn't know nothing. It just made a monkey out of me. Get the point? Now I had to come clean with you about that. Well now if it was true in my case, now you know good and well I'm not gonna buy it on yours. You see through what I'm talking about, don't you? So it's all this scripture quoting and all them different kinda things, try to show some body (somebody?) how good a memory you got and how much you know about it, that don't mean nothing, don't mean a thing.
I tell you one, I'll tell you one thing, Solomon said it too. He said much study is the weariness of the flesh. You can read a thing and read it and read it and get so you can recite and repeat it and quote it and all them different kinda thing any where. It becomes registered and ____ ____ course there is no such thing as a subconscious mind, but for the sake of explanation why we just use the term. It becomes registered in the subconscious mind. Now you think you know something.
Now this is what happened to me, after having all of that in my mind. I went back after I seen the vision and looked at the same verses. Now you know they didn't change. It wasn't the verses that changed. And I found out I read them things wrong, and quoting it too. I told you I could quote, quote, quote. And everybody that take, takes a Bible, they get around to the place where they get familiar with the thing and all like that but that don't spell they can preach it. A lotta people, you heard 'em say, 'there's my uncle or there's my daddy, there's my grandfather, and there's my brother, why he knows a whole lot about the scriptures.' Maybe they mean by that that he studied the Bible and he, he read it quite frequently and he become familiar with its contents but that doesn't spell he knows anything about it. No indeed, no that goes for verse one in the Bible, as Dr. Carrol showed you, verse one. Wrong from start to finish. And if you start out wrong you can't hope to end up right. For the most part the preachers don't know how to, they don't even know how to study a Bible to realize and know anything about it.
Then another thing, the Apostle Paul said this, all scriptures, now not some, is given by the inspiration of God. Now anybody could get up here and read this Book and read that in the Book, I don't care whether it's Protestant or Catholic or just anybody, be an Atheist if you want to, Communist, anything you wanna make it, he's got to read that the way it's written in the Book. Get the point? He'll say all scriptures given by.., but that don't spell that he knows what all scriptures is. That don't spell that he knows what Paul is talking about. And anything else you read in the Bible is that way.
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INTERCESSION; RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
Now what we have did in this school, since it is a research, now we bought up Bibles. We've got the Vulgate,4 now that's.., or the Douay Version.5 Now that's Roman Catholic. Now they insist and dogmatically contend that this Vulgate is the closest to the original manuscript that there is written, translated. I think you'll find it by Jerome, just one man. Now when King James translated the Bible, Tyndale was the translator there, but he had a whole force of men to correct, to check behind Tyndale, and wrote this King James version.6 Now anybody that knows anything at all about a Bible and ever studied theology to a great extent, knows that the King James version of the Bible is better than the Vulgate. Get the point?
But I have them to read all of these various different types of Bibles and every time the scripture lesson as you call it, is read here in class... Now the one that reads it, he said, 'now this is not the King James version.' He'll tell you that it is not. Now look, that don't mean that you're just supposed to not have no Bible and pay attention to this one. You bring your King James version. Get, if you don't have one, get one. Bring your Roman Catholic Bible, anything you can pick up. Bring it on down and look at it and read it. Every time he reads, you open your Book. Don't you think because he says that this is not the King James version that you don't, that you're not supposed to read. Don't think that. You get the point? So you get, if you don't have a Bible, get you one of some kind. And this is a, this is a research. Now then, I'll research it, just like we talked about last night at the meeting last night.
Now, in this school, we're not trying to agree with anybody. That's not our objective. And then we don't care what our ancestors or progenitors believed, We're not, we're not guided and directed by that. And this institution is independent. It is not backed up by Roman Catholics, it is not backed up by the Protestants. And people have came along and said this, said, 'well I think...'
__________________________
4 Jerome was requested by Pope Damasus I in 382 to revise the Latin version of the Bible. He translated both the so called Old and New Testaments into Latin, His translation was completed in 404. It became known as the Vulgate version and became the only version known in the West. The Council of Trent in 1546 authorized it as the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church. It remains such today.
5 This version of the Bible, made specifically for priests, was based mainly on the Vulgate. The Old Testament was completed in 1609 and the so called New Testament was completed in 1582. It was prepared by Gregory Martin under the direction William (later Cardinal) Allen of the English college at Douai,
6 The Hampton Court Conference in 1604 proposed a new translation of the Bible in English. 54 translators were invited to undertake the work at Oxford, Cambridge, and Westminster. The manuscript was bought by the king's printer. This Bible appeared in 1611 and was dedicated to King James I of England.
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INTERCESSION; RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
Told Dr. Gross this once when we were over in Hollywood. Said, 'don't you have nothing to so with that fella,' talking about me. Took him back in the back and whispered in his ear. Doc Gross is trying to show him the charts and the teaching. And took him back there, said, 'look,' said, 'don't you have nothing to do with that fella,' said, 'I've already lost five or six jobs on the account of him, and he's a communist,' talking about me being a communist. Now Dr. Gross at that time, been around me some where (somewhere?) around 30 years or some like that. Now if he couldn't find out whether or not I'm a communist in 30 years or not... Now she just blowed in, now that's the first time she'd ever been in there and that was her judgement on it. Well, now she's not by herself, somebody else comes in thinks we're communist.
People walk up to you say, 'what church you belong to?' Casing it. Now they think that's a intelligent question. Paul said unlearned questions avoid. Why? Because they gender strife, stir up a lotta strife. So now, when they ask you that question, to them it's intelligent, to me it's genuinely stupid. Now here's why. If you knew what the church was, then you would understand that there's only one church for anybody to belong to. So then that makes you ask me a fool question, then what you got there then, when I say, 'well look,' if I belonged to the Church of God or the Church of Christ or the Church of Yahweh, or just anything I say, then here you come for a fight. Get the point? Think that you're, that you're wrong. Get the point?
Now let me see if I can get down to some things that's pretty deep with you that I studied today, looked into, Clarence Larkin, into his interpretation. I didn't bring the book with me tonight, ____ Bible. I didn't bring it. But Clarence Larkin in looking up this man of sin, the Son of Perdition. Now he said that he did not think that that could be the Pope. He said since the 15th century, a lotta of people thought that the man of sin was the Pope of Rome, and it's not him individually and personally, why then they thought that the Roman Catholic body was the, papal or the papal system was the man of sin that it was spoken of in the Bible, in Revelations, and also in Isaiah, and everywhere he's spoken of. But he didn't think so. Now he went on to say why. And he made the contrast and admitted the contrast.
I just should have brought them books. I should keep 'em around here all the time to convince you and show you how men think. That's why we got these other Bibles. Now he tried to make a contrast. He said now this man of sin over in Revelations it says was from the bottomless pit. Now the contrast with Messiah or Christ, he's from above. Get that? Then he just kept contrast going like that, oh I guess some six or seven contrasts as why he didn't think the man of sin that he came from the bottomless pit that John said he was.
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INTERCESSION; RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
Now here's what he overlooked. I'm just showing you how short sighted people are. He overlooked the fact that the spirit or the man of sin had been cast out of heaven, and shut up in bottomless pit. And where he read about it was, he come from the bottom, out of the bottomless pit. Well he missed all this back here. And Messiah said, I beheld Satan fall from heaven. Then he went on to say, Messiah said this, when He was here and Judas was along with Him, He said that... Now that's what He's doing is fulfilling the scriptures. And He said this, He said, none is lost.
Well let me put it this way first. He said that the first, that I have chosen twelve of you, and one of you is a devil. But he didn't say which one of 'em until he got down to the close that night. And He said, one of you shall betray me. Then they asked Him the question, 'Lord, is it I? Is it me?' And, and at, at the supper. And now the scriptures had said, he that soppeth in the dish with Me has lifted his heel. Now He's fulfilling what is in the scriptures. Now no.., the average person wouldn't think that the way that they were setting at that last supper, was exposed even before.., many, many, many, years ago, and was stipulated in the scriptures, that's that setting just as it was. Now, now Judas has to be sitting close enough to Him to sop in the dish with Him. Then John, he had to be setting close enough to Him to lean over on His breast. Now that's Judas on one side and John on the other. Then Pete, he asked the question, 'Lord, is it, is it I?' And pass it all around. Well now, all such things, polytechnical things as that, that is jots and tittles in the scriptures, the average theologian, he doesn't think about it. Now what he's got in his mind is to try and learn the chapters and verses. And so far as the dispensation, put it on the board, Freddy, so far as dispensations and ages, he doesn't know anything about it.
Now I said this, so now I'm picking up the continuity of thought now. He said this, don't think that I come to destroy but I come to fulfill. Now I come to fulfill, and verily, verily, I say unto you one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass until it is all fulfilled. Now in this school, in this school as far as I have any knowledge of it is concerned and I have a pretty good knowledge of it too. As Bishop Short said one time, he wasn't sleeping when he knew what was around out in the world. Now when it comes to knowing how, what Messiah was doing when He was in the world and what you call reading in your New Testament. They don't know what He's doing. The big shots, the leaders of Christendoom. The Pope, he don't know what he's doing. Now you know why he don't know what he's doing? Is because it's hid from him, he is supposed to be a deceiver.
Just like Messiah said, now I choose 12 of you and one of you's a devil. Now listen, when He got down there, He said now, in fulfilling the scriptures... Now listen at, listen at these being technical, cause they are hard to express. He said one of you shall betray Me as the Lord and Messiah. And so He told them about the scriptures. Now that was written in the scriptures back there. Now listen, He said, none is lost but the son of perdition. Well, why is the son of perdition lost? Now listen closely. That the scriptures might be fulfilled.
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Now the scriptures were written before He was born in the world. And He came in the world, and He had to fulfill what's in the scriptures. The Pharisees and the Scribes, they would walk up to Him, and ask Him, by what authority do you do this and so forth and so on? And then He would say to 'em, search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they, the scriptures testify of Me. Now He's fulfilling the scriptures. And everything He did, birth on, everything He did was fulfillment the scriptures. Even His conception was a fulfillment of what was written in the scriptures. Now if they had known and understood the scriptures, then they could have looked in the Bible or they could have looked in the scriptures. And when I say looked in the scriptures, I don't mean Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and the Pauline epistles. They were not written. And they could see there the reason why He was doing what He was doing was because He was fulfilling the scriptures. Now out there in Christendoom, they haven't got that learned yet. And that's how they get.., always quoting the Bible. And when you get through with it, these people, in this school will pick you up on that. They'll pick you up on that.
Then another thing as Paul told Timothy. Now look, you study. Study what? The scriptures? No. To show yourself approved, a workman unto God that don't need to be ashamed. Now if you're not capable and qualified of reading the scriptures and applying them in the, in the proper dispensation then you got something to be ashamed of. It says study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God. Now that's what you're studying for, not to just get up and quote the Bible around and all that, as it's done at Embassy Auditorium, but study to show yourself approved. Study to learn the scriptures? No. What's the difference? Now he said to Timothy, same person, said, now you've known the scriptures from your youth on up. He studied at his mother, his grandma Lois... His father was a Greek and his mother was a Jew. They taught him all the way up. Now he knew the scriptures. He knew what that said, but where to place it at or what dispensation it was, how to apply it. Now that's the thing Paul is telling him to study to show himself approved. Get it?
Now look, you take your Bible. Now look up here at me. You take your Bible and you go over here and you'll just find Christendoom just full of this. Now let us see what the Blessed Word of God says about it. They say, 'well, I'm not following Kinley, I'm following the, I'm following the Blessed Word of God.' Now to him anything that he thinks about what he's reading in the Bible is right to him, as Solomon said every way of a man is right in his own eyes. That's why you get all your different sects and cults and creeds. Get the point? Now then he says, 'well now, look here,' said, 'I'm, I'm, look, I'm, I'm going by the New Testament.' It never dawned on him that they don't even know what the New Testament is. It never dawned on them that this is not the Word of God. Now in the school we're trying to teach you the difference so you'll come to a realization of it.
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Now look, Messiah said this, man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Now what Moses has wrote back over here that he saw in the vision, he put it down. Now that was coming by inspiration. Now by inspiration we mean that he saw in a vision and heard in a vision. Then he put down what he saw in the vision. Now that's the words, plural. Now the Word of God is singular, just one. And you don't carry Him around under your arm. It's not in the Book, but in you. But that that is in the Book, as the Messiah said, search the scriptures. Now you got the scriptures and the Word of God tangled up. You should learn the difference between the scriptures and the Word of God. Get the point?
Now He was the Word of God Himself. John says, in the first chapter of Saint John, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. Now listen, you can't do no patching up and fixing these things. Now that's the way it is. But every time, somebody get up and they read something or another, and they get so they can quote it, and refer to chapters and verses and they got more literature and stuff out here on this market. And people are deceived every kind of way you can think of. Well now here's what I, here's the reason why I said that to you: I want you to know and be aware of one thing in particular and that is that there is a positive and a negative, Deception is in this world and it is keen. In order to be a devil or an imp, you have to be, you have to, you, you, you, you have to be pretty smart to detect the devil you certainly must have something in you to detect him with. You just can't take your ____ out there and do it, because everything that the devil employs; for example, look at him out there in the wilderness. He didn't go out there in the wilderness and say, 'look here, bishop so and so, and so and so, so and so, the Pharisee and the Sadducees, they said this. He didn't do that. What he went out there, what he did when he went out there said, it's written, talking to the Messiah, said, it's written. He had sense enough to, to get at him with something that was written. And you around here talking about something that some bishops said. Now I'm not talking about Bishop Short. And you could be talking about something he said, me too. Well now the thing of it is it don't make no difference who said it. You can be deceived, you can be deceived by all of these different testimonies. And the devil has to be slick.
Now I want you to know this, I want you to know this, God.., if you don't believe it, I'll read it. I will read it. God himself made the devil. Now somebody say, 'now I don't believe that.' Well now you tell me something that was made that without God making it. Now get up right where you are now and prove it to me, cause I know somebody that's been writing out there, saying that God didn't create the devil. ____ ____ he was an independent. He's an idiot. Now I said that to say this, in that He made, He made His own opponent. He made His own... Well what'd He make him like that for? He made him wise. That's why the Messiah said, now be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Don't be no fool, cause the devil is slick. Has to be slick, has to be in order to fool the people or to deceive people. It looks like the real thing. It looks like it's genuine. Some of these pamphlets that you pick up with all this scriptures quoted on it... Now there isn't anything wrong with the scriptures. There isn't a thing wrong with that. And we don't have no
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dispute with what's in the Bible. And that... and there is interpolations in the Bible, they're actually wrong. And what they usually do is this... I don't want to get off on a tangent. What they usually do is this, whenever one translator comes along and make, make a mistake out of it, why the rest of 'em in translating from that copy, translate, they keep the, they keep the error running. Now if you don't know the purpose and plan, and you really don't know what it's all about and God in you hasn't made you wise enough, you wouldn't recognize one of them things. You want me to show you a real slick one?
Student: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: ____. Want me to show you a real slick one? Mark and 15th chapter of first Corinthians. I'll show you a real slick one. Now in the Holy Name Bible that's the last, the, almost excepted original names. It was in the original and your King James. And I wanna show you that they brought that right over in this one, because that translation that you got there with the exception of the names was taken from the King James, so it's got to run in that. Now, I believe Sister Mary, she knows what I'm talking about.
Mary Gross: More over (Moreover?) brethren
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute. Now where are you reading. We making 'em work hard. Huh?
Mary Gross: 1 Corinthians 15
Dr. Kinley: 1 Corinthians, 15th chapter.
Mary Gross: Moreover brethren
Dr. Kinley: What verse are you reading?
Mary Gross: One
Dr. Kinley: Now what I want is way down there, where, where Paul says... What Paul said in the 15th chapter of first Corinthians where last of all he was seen of me. He was seen of, first of the 12. The fifth verse so it says and then last of all He was seen of me. Now they say that he said there that He was seen of the 12. The fifth verse. Now Paul didn't say that. Now, let me show you why it can't be that way. Now go over in Mark and check that.
Dr. Harris afterward.
Dr. Kinley: Where are you reading?
Dr. Harris: Mark 16:14
Dr. Kinley: Mark 16:14. Alright. Afterwards
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Dr. Harris: he appeared unto the eleven.
Dr. Kinley: afterwards he appeared unto the eleven.
Dr. Harris: and they sat at meat.
Dr. Kinley: and they sat at meat, they sat at meat, after... Now that means, he's talking about His resurrection, After He has resurrected from the dead, He appeared unto the eleven. Now listen folks, you know that the Book teaches, the the record teaches that Judas went out and hung himself, and the son of perdition, he was the son of perdition that was lost, went out and hung himself before the Messiah died. And then if he had watched, if he was dead and buried, Judas was dead and buried, then when Christ raised from the dead and appeared to them or Messiah appeared to them, it'd have to be the eleven, like Mark said. But now over here they're saying that Paul said after, after He appeared to the 12, last of all He appeared to me. That would be 13. Do you see it? I'm asking you. Do you see it?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: When one of 'em made the mistake, they just run it on, kept it running on. Paul didn't say 12. Now let me show you, now let me show you to catch him. Show you how you can catch him good. Now after He resurrected, He was here 40 days walking around among them eleven and all during them 40 days, Judas still laying out there dead. When He stepped aboard a cloud and ascended, Judas is still dead. And then while He, after His ascension, the eleven, you got it right there in Acts of Apostles, the eleven, then they cast lots for to... somebody to fill Judas' place. You get the point? Now what I'm saying is, after His resurrection and His tarrying on earth 40 days, He couldn't appear to nobody but the 11 clear on until He ascended. Couldn't have appeared to the 12 because Judas was dead. Now do you see it now? Now Paul said over here that after He resurrected, so you got it. He appeared unto the 12 and after.., last of all He was seen me. Is that what you got in your Book? Now that's an error. See how sharp you have to be about it. Get it?
I could just go through a lotta places and point out such things as that. Organized Christendoom, they been reading over there for centuries, ever since Tyndale and Wycliffe and them translated the Bible. And reading over there, the translators come along make that same mistake, and go right on. Now they choose Mathias (Matthias?) to take the place of Judas after the ascension. So He, He didn't appear to the 12, It was to the 11, as Mark said.
Well, this Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that you have here is a biography. It is not the New Testament. Now, they have been making that error and that mistake so long until the people are crystallized in it. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is a biography. Acts of the Apostles is a history. The epistles are instructions and corrections. And then they are teaching the meaning of the scriptures back over there. Now that's what that is. Revelation is a prophetic book. It's cor.., it's
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correlated, now most of 'em would say, with Daniel. Say Daniel, Revelation's a companion book to Daniel. And they never even give it a thought it was Moses too. I never seen a script in my life that says it was a companion to Moses and yet and still that's what Mose.., that's what John was out there on, was to verify and to confirm. And the big thing that he wrote had reference to what, to what Moses wrote. Isn't that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: You see how, see how bad you can be all twisted up on the thing. Christendoom is a mess and I mean a genuine mess too.
Now let me get back to what I'm talking. Now God made the devil like that. He made him according to Isaiah, He made him wise enough to twist and tangle up these scriptures and to misrepresent things. He made him wise enough to do that. Now listen, keep me covered and I'll get on in after my subject. Your recall that I told you that when he approached the Messiah and He's out there in the wilderness. He approached Him with the scriptures, tangled the thing all up. Said, it's written. The Messiah said, he's... Well let me tell you what He said, something, something he said, said, it is written that He shall give His angels charge concerning thee and in their hand shall they bare Thee up lest at anytime Thy dash Thy foot against a stone. Now the Messiah didn't say that wasn't written, but this is what He said. He said, it's also written. It's written that thou shall worship the Lord and Him only shall thou serve.
Now he, Satan is serving in the capacity in which he was generated for or created for. He's slick, he's sly, evasive. And now God made him like that, and he's out there in the pulpit and everything and he's preaching, saying holiness, preaching holiness, and he's preaching this and preaching that and preaching the other. Now He made him like that. Now you'll be deceived and fooled by that, if you don't understand, if God don't reveal it to you, you're messed up. And then you get all crystallized in that thing, circumscribed, that's surrounded, and brain washed, and you just think, and you just think that you're on your way to heaven. And here you have a hallucination, a delusion and a imagination, and none of it's genuine, it won't stand the test.
Now let me say this to you too. Now when Messiah was alone, walking around in the flesh, He said to Peter and them that, there in Capernium (Capernum?)... Now you watch what I'm gonna say and look close at it. He said, now who do men say that I am? Now He asked him what the other fella said that He is. And some of them said Jeremiah, Isaiah. One of them John the baptist. They knew that it had been ____ ____, what some of the other prophets had written. Now that's what they, they, they answered His question by telling, that's what the other fella say. Then the question comes up, now who do you say that I am? And Simon Bar Jonah spoke up and said, I say that thou art Yahshua the Messiah, the Son of the living God. And He said unto him, He say that I say that you art Pete or Cephas, which means one and the same, and upon this Rock I'll build My church. Now look, here's what I want you to see in that now. Now He said that to Peter. Now the devil was in
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Peter right then. And if you'll read right on down, right next, if you read there, If you challenge, if you challenge, I will read. And as they went on on their journey... Now Peter done told Him that, I say that thou art Christ, the son of the living God. I'm trying to put it like you have it in your King James version. Now, He said, flesh and blood did not reveal this unto you, but My Father which is in heaven. And upon this Rock I'll build My church. Now the Roman Catholic Church didn't get the thing. That church is built on Peter, and Peter is the rock upon which the church is built from that saying. Now you can't deny that He didn't say that to Peter. He said it to Peter. And He also said to Peter, as Peter told Him, as He was telling him about.., the same conversation, as He was telling him about that the Son of Man is gonna be crucified and what not and so forth. Same boy, Peter. Now, they don't say nothing about this, same boy Peter. Peter said, no, there ain't nothing like that gonna happen to you. And He said to same man, Peter, get thee behind Me Satan. Now you wouldn't think that He was gonna build His church on Satan. Get the point? Now what it was in Peter was, was Satan. Now listen to me close what I'm fixing to say. It was Satan that was cast out of heaven that was in him. Messiah knew it. Now Satan in him was trying to tell Him what wasn't gonna happen to Him, wherein it was written in the scriptures what had to happen. And it couldn't be nobody else but the devil. But since I told you one thing about I say that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God and upon this Rock I'll build My church. Then He went and put that upon Peter. And they say, 'well He was talking to Peter,' so then they build it on that. Now look how many millions of people that are deceived by it.
TAPE 1, SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Now here's something else He said to him, said, you're Peter. Now listen and I'm, I will.., now He said said it, said it to Peter, I will give you the keys of the kingdom and whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose in heaven shall be loosed on earth. Now look Buddy, He said that to Peter. He said all I said He said to Peter but now you not realizing why He said what He said to Peter, that's where you get in trouble at, cause the devil'll come back and he'll throw that up to you that he did say it to Peter.
Now look John says in the 19th or 20th chapter of John, he said that Cephas or Peter means a stone. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen folks, I'm trying to get you to see how deceptive and evasive, and how this thing.., Satan has got to be cast out of heaven and he's come on down to the Garden of Eden, come on down through the garden of Eden, all the way, all the way down through the Garden of Eden and when Messiah was here He choose 12 and one of them was a devil. He knew it. Now then that thing had to continue, had to continue on here. Judas, Satan was manifested in him. One of 'em is a devil. Now listen at me close. But now when Judas died, that spirit that was manifested in that body, it had to continue on through here at the end, come on down to the end of this present age. Now when
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the Messiah was here at, well Freddy, show it, at end of this age here, at the end here Messiah pointed him out. You've got to come down to the end here. Now this Day that we talked to you about Wednesday night, it couldn't come except there come a falling away first, and that same satanic spirit that has been cast out of heaven and come all the way down, it showed up at the end, at this end. Now the reason why Messiah said what He did to them, said directly to Peter... Then they went and grabbed what He said to Peter.., and He did say it. Don't say He didn't say, cause He did, it's written. Get the point? But they don't see the reason why He said it to Peter, just like giving him the keys to the kingdom. Now the devil grabbed that on this side here and it had to continue. That's the reason why He said it that way. Now we said that Peter meant, meant a stone. Is that right?
Now look, John meant a stone is a stone too; in other words Peter's not the only stone. Now here's what Pete said. Peter said.., if you don't think it's there I will read it to you. Peter said, ye are lively stones in the building, so he wasn't the only stone there was in the building. But He knew that Satan would grab that and come on through here with it and put it on put it on him. Now Paul looked at it and this is what he said, said we are builded upon the foundation, listen, of the prophets and apostles, listen, and Jesus Christ Himself, I'm trying to tell it as it is in your Bible, it's Yahshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ Himself not Peter, but Jesus Christ Himself is the chief cornerstone in which all the building fitly framed together groweth into a holy temple in the Lord for a habitation of God through the spirit. John looks at it out here on the Isle of Patmos. There was 12 foundation stones with the names of the apostles, all of 'em, in it. 12 foundations, not Pete. You get it now? Now look back again as Doctor Carrol was talking to you about. John 2:19. Now try to study, people, because I'm trying to show you how the devil will trick you. Now John 2:19 says this, destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days. They thought that He was talking about the temple that set out, out there on mount Moriah, the Herodian temple or to the temple of the figure of Solomon, Solomon's temple. That's what they thought He was talking about. But John explains, this spake He of the temple of His body. 'But what are you talking about?' I'm talking about this. Pete could not be the only stone in that building. And you know it, and he just couldn't be. And the Messiah still put some more stones in there. You get the point? And there were stones was hewn out there in the quarry, but satan looked at it, and come along. And that's why the Messiah said it to him like He did, cause that Mystery of Iniquity has to come on through here. It's got to come on down to the end.
He also said unto Pete, I give unto thee the keys of the kingdom. He said that to Peter too. And the devil grabbed that. And now then here he set over there in the Vatican, 'I got the keys.' See a cross and the crown, said that, Peter said that, that Christ said to Peter that I give unto thee the keys to the kingdom and whatsoever you bind on, in heaven, will be bound on earth, will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you bind.., visa versa. And He did say it. And that too, Pete, 'I'm occupying the chair of Peter,' succession of the apostle. Now they coming on down, showing it back here coming on down, from the Garden of Eden, all the way down through Cain, and all the way down. Now this is what the
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Messiah said to His disciples, ____. If you don't think that's in the Book, I'll read. The Scribes and the Pharisees they like to sit in Moses' seat. Now they thought Moses was a communicate, the mediator between God and Israel. They want to be top dog. Well that thing has got to come all the way through. It is not Moses, it, it.., but that thing has got to come all the way through. Now the Scribes and the Pharisees, before He died, wanted to sit in Moses's seat. And that thing is gonna be fulfilled. Then they think that Peter is a high dog in the meat house. I'm trying to give it to you in just common breakdown, so you can see what I'm talking about. Then they wanna set in the highest seats that thought that Christ give the authority to, so then that means that Peter was that and they're gonna be the successor to it, and he's got the keys and the crown and all. Now I told you before, I said God made him wise. And now that's the reason why he's saying these things to, directly to Peter. Now that don't mean that the rest of 'em didn't have the keys. It didn't mean, I already told you about the rest of 'em was stones too. Now I showed you the temple there was more than one stone in that. Get the point? Pete wasn't the boss. Now what he's doing is taking the place of, that's what makes him anti-christ or anti-Messiah, is because he's taking the place of. Now that thing has got to be exposed and it's got to be showed up.
Now the keys, I don't wanna miss that one too. Now, here He is.., though He said that to Peter, now, here He is giving 'em all the keys, every last one of 'em. You remember I told you, listen, I told you right in the same conversation where he had said, I say that thou art Christ and the Son of the living God. And as they went on, right, right, right in the same conversation, He spoke up to him, and the Messiah was him about how He'd be crucified; and the same fella, Peter, spoke up and said, none of them things gonna happen to you. He said, get thee behind me Satan. Now He said, now He's talking about the keys, giving him the keys.
Now you see what it was... Now when.., I might say this, when did His Father... He said, now flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but My Father which is in heaven. Now when did My Father which is in heaven reveal this unto you? Now here's what you must see. Now you must see Pete wasn't back there, as a man. No, no Pete wasn't back there when this thing was revealed. Now here's where, here's where it happened at. Now, Satan was cast out of heaven, 12th chapter of Revelation. He's cast out of heaven. Now this devil that was cast out of heaven comes right down there in the Garden of Eden. And I have you to be very, very particular with just even one word. In the third chapter of Genesis, you'll find this, that old serpent, Moses starts in with that old serpent. Right out of a clear blue sky, you don't read nothing, he just starts right there and says now that, that serpent was more subtle than the woman. He didn't tell you where he come from nor nothing. Did he?
Student Body: No.
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Dr. Kinley: Now Messiah said, remember I told you, He said, I saw Satan fall as lightening from heaven. Now this is where he was cast out, that same spirit that was in old Peter then, that's.., when he was cast out that's where His father revealed it to him, was back there. Revealed it to the devil that was in him, Peter. He said, now flesh and blood... God is spirit. It was the spirit that revealed it, flesh and blood, it wasn't it that revealed to the devil that was in him. Why when he was cast out and appeared in the Garden of Eden down there. And that's why He said, get thee behind me Satan because He recognized what it was in him. Get the point? But He had to say all them things to him, cause this Mystery of Iniquity's got to come all the way through, and that's what you're faced and confronted with and you're studying about all the time. And if you are not able to detect it...
Now let me get the keys. He said to Peter, I'll give unto thee the keys to the kingdom, whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose, shall be loosed in heaven. Now ____ ____ ____. Now remember, remember what I just got through telling you, when Peter took Him and begin to say, upbraid Him, and say that none of them things gonna happen, He's telling 'em about how He's gonna get crucified and what not. Well now Pete didn't understand that or the devil in him. And He said, no, no, no, don't get excited about that. Peter was getting... And then He turned around and He spake and He said, thou savorest not the things that be of God. The scriptures was written and they had to be fulfilled. That's why He tells him about how the scriptures it had to be fulfilled. Now here He is giving him the keys. Matthew, not Matthew but Luke 24:44, giving Pete the keys, giving all the rest of 'em the keys right along.
Dr. Harris: And he said unto them
Dr. Kinley: And he said unto them
Dr. Harris: these are the words
Dr. Kinley: these are the words
Dr. Harris: which I spake unto you
Dr. Kinley: Now, now, follow, follow. These are the words. Remember I just got through telling you the words that He told 'em about how He had to go over there and be crucified and so forth and so on. And then Peter spoke up and said, there ain't nothing like that gonna happen. That was the devil in him. He told him, get thee behind Me because thou savorest not the things God; in other words, what was written in the scriptures, cause the scriptures had said what was gonna happen to Him. And he said truthfully, surely the Son of Man goes the way of the scriptures, everything, He just had to.., He's fulfilling. And so He had to die according to the scriptures. And then resurrect from the dead according to the scriptures. And, the.., but Peter couldn't help that. Now here He is, now He done resurrected from the dead now. Now here He is with them keys, here He is with the keys. Now there they are the eleven of 'em. And there's Pete along with
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them. Now these are the words. Remember how.
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
Dr. Kinley: Ye remit on earth, shall be, shall be remitted in heaven. And now here he is, he's setting up here thinking that the Pope has charge and who ever (whoever?) sins, he remits. And that is what he thinks. He didn't say Pope but that's what He's talking about, whosoever sins he remit, it shall be remitted. Now here's where you missed the boat. The boat went just straight on by. Now He told them, 'now you go back to Jerusalem and you stay right there, don't you leave, you stick around there.' Then, then He told 'em before then, He said now, He said, I go to prepare a place for you. I go away and I'll come again unto you and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there you'll be also. Listen, he said to 'em also, don't take no thought of what you shall say, don't worry about it and He didn't leave no written records, notes, nothing for them to go by. He didn't write no books. You don't see nothing, a pen scratch that he left. He didn't, He didn't write nothing like that. Why? He said, now I said all things whatsoever I have said unto you, during them three and a half years that He's fulfilling the law and the prophets. What's gonna happen?
Student: I'll bring 'em back to your remembrance.
Dr. Kinley: I'll bring 'em back to your remembrance, so don't worry about it, I'll bring it back to your remembrance, all them things that He was doing three and a half years. Now that's something to think about. 'Don't make no record, don't take no nothing.' And now He's gonna bring back to their remembrance. Now here's the point I want to get you to see. Now this is it. When he said whoso sin He remits, they shall be remitted, whatever you bind in this life and all like... Now this is what, this is what the devil didn't see, this is what the Pope didn't see. He said now.., the Holy Ghost, listen at me closely, said, whom the Father, Yahweh, will send in My name. Now you go back yonder and stay there until I come in you according to the New Testament or the New Covenant. Then it won't be Pete, it won't be Paul, it will not be Jeremiah or Isaiah or the Pope. It won't be none of that, so you don't worry about it. Why? Because it's gonna be... the prayer too, Father, that they may be one, even as you and I are one. So then what's in them, it was Christ in 'em. I'm trying to say it so you can understand. It was Christ in Peter, it was Christ in Paul, it was Christ in all of those men, that was loosening and binding through those men. It was not Peter. It was none of that. Do you understand what I'm talking about? And He said whoso sin he remits, they shall be remitted. Now listen but remission, said, whoso sins you remit, they shall be remitted. But here, don't you run out here and holler about you got the authority and the power to do it. Now you stay there in Jerusalem until you get some power on high and then you go out there and preach that remission of sins is ____ in My name, not yours, not Pete's, not Paul's, but Mine.
Student: Alright.
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Dr. Kinley: You're a sinner yourself. Now that makes all them things.., I don't know whether you're catching on to the things that I saying to you tonight or not, I hope you are. And I'm trying to show you how perfect, how sly the devil is, playing preacher with his regalia on, his robes, and his garments of identification, and with his gestures. The Pope, ____ while he got down and he's sporting around with.., just as graceful and all. He's bowing, got the altar boys and all. See the point? People are deceived by that. Brain washed and circumscribed. They say, 'Well look, we're the first church.' They done deceived; the word church means congregation or assembly. And here it is back here in the wilderness, that was the first one. Who's the preacher? Said, I'm the Lord thy God that brought thee out of the land of Egypt and out the house, He identified His ownself. It wasn't Moses. Now here's something else I wanna tell you. Now Paul said to Timothy, Paul... Now you listen at me. Listen at me. I said you listen at me, and don't you miss me here, and if you do you're ruined. You'll missing the boat in it's entirety. And it's just about time to go home too. So now you listen good cause I'm trying to nail down something. Now Paul told Timothy... You got that Dr. Harris.
Dr. Harris: Now if I tarry long
Dr. Kinley: Now if I tarry long
Dr. Harris: that thou mayest know how thy always to behave thyself.
Dr. Kinley: How, if I tarry long, but that you ought to be.., that you should know how you oughta behave yourself.
Dr. Harris: in the house of God
Dr. Kinley: in the house of God
Dr. Harris: which is the church of the living God
Dr. Kinley: which is the congregation of the living God
Dr. Harris: the pillar and ground of the truth
Dr. Kinley: the pillar and ground of the truth. Now wait a minute now. Now here's what Paul is talking about. Now this is the congregation back here. This is the pillar and the ground of the truth back here. This is where God spoke from Mount Sinai to them gathered around in the first church, but now that you might know how... Now here's Israel on this side of the cross or the people on this side of the cross. The word church means congregation or assembly, that's, that's a true definition of it. Now that you might know Timothy since you are a bishop, how you oughta behave yourself, if I tarry long, if I don't get to where you are or if I'm detained over here, I'm writing you, so you'll know how to behave yourself, so when you come in the congregation of the assembly which is the church or.., which is the pillar and the ground of the truth. That's the reason why I'm writing to you. I'm one of the apostles, one of them that's ordained for that specific
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purpose, so I'm writing to you, so you'll know how to behave yourself. Alright. Read.
Dr. Harris: and with out controversy
Dr. Kinley: and no arguments about it. Just forget about the arguments. Alright, read. Without any controversy.
Dr. Harris: great is the mystery of Godliness
Dr. Kinley: great is the mystery of Godliness
Dr. Harris: God was manifested in the flesh
Dr. Kinley: God was manifested in the flesh. Now look up here at me, look up here. Now when He was walking around here on the earth, that was God manifested in a physical body. When He was talking all them things that you, that we just talked about, when He talked to the di.., He was in a physical body talking with 'em, conversing. Alright read on doctor.
Dr. Harris: justified in the spirit
Dr. Kinley: justified in the spirit
Dr. Harris: seen of angels
Dr. Kinley: seen of angels
Dr. Harris: preached unto the Gentiles
Dr. Kinley: preached unto the Gentiles
Dr. Harris: believed on in the world
Dr. Kinley: believed on in the world
Dr. Harris: received up into heaven
Dr. Kinley: received up in, into heaven. Now look folks, He was God manifest in the flesh. That's what we just said. And I want you to read, I want you to get about Him being a mediator there. Now he in the.., listen close at me cause if you don't you're gonna miss it, and if you miss it, you're ruined, cause it is the New Covenant. Get the point? Now somebody come along and they say, 'well Bishop Short, pray for me.' That means I'm expecting you, that's the priesthood I'm talking about, I just using him as an example. You pray to get my parents out of purgatory. That's what they commonly using now, because they were supposed to be praying, then mediated it to go between. That's what they say the Pope is, whatsoever he binds, he's the mediator, he's the go between. Now that's the devil
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and his imps. Now, I'm pointing him out to you so you can see what I'm talking about. The mediator and the go between. Now have you got it?
Dr. Harris: Yes. For there is one God
Dr. Kinley: for there is one spirit
Dr. Harris: and one mediator between God
Dr. Kinley: and one spirit, one mediator
Dr. Harris: between God and man
Dr. Kinley: between God and man
Dr. Harris: the man Christ Jesus
Dr. Kinley: the man Christ Jesus. Now here's.., now that's what Paul is saying. Now, listen, there is one God, there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Now he's telling Timothy that. Is that right?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now I want you to see what, I want you to see what I'm talking about. You don't have no mediator now. This man setting out there talking about binding and loosing and all like that, having the keys and all, the go between and all that kinda thing, occupying the chair of Peter. You get it now? The priest and all, they're running their hands in their pockets, paying 'em to say prayers. And the Jews and them different kinda things, they're go betweens. Costing you so much money for them to go between you and them.
Now I'm telling you, you don't have no mediator. Now if you say, what is Paul talking about then, if you say we don't have no mediator now? Now here's what I'm telling you. Now on this side of the cross before He died, while He was in the flesh, while He was walking around talking to men, He said, I will pray the Father and then, the 17th chapter of Saint John... And He was the only go between while He was in the flesh, so while He's in the flesh, He was the one that communicated with God for them. He was the go between... Now listen, now He was God manifested in a body. Now when He takes the flesh off then that is God. You don't have no flesh going between. That's the New Covenant. The New Covenant said, after those days into their hearts will I put my laws and in their minds will I write it, and they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest, from the peasant in the field, the prophet, the great, the high priest, the great, the king, the great, everybody after those days, after the death, burial, and resurrection of Him, He takes off the flesh, and He puts that in you. Then you, from the least to the.., they'll all know me. Now it done moved the mediator out, just took the flesh off. Now I want you to Romans 8:25 and I wanna show you, you remember I told you that the spirit was in there in that body. And you read without controversy, great
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is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifested in the flesh, seen of angels, believed on in the world, and received up into glory. And now here we are running around, we expect, and we are hoping and we're depending on some hypocrite preacher or the pope or some hypocrite priest to make an intercession for us, or to pray God to get us in good favor with God. Seeing that you don't know what to say and they're writing up prayer books and telling you what to say and all that kinda junk and stuff. Now the devil, I told you he was slick. Now we don't have that mediator He was the mediator while He was walking around between God and man. And His flesh, the spirit in man, the flesh was between the spirit. Now when He takes that off, then now then you got the spirit there. He's sown a natural, raised a quick, a spirit, a quickening spirit.
Alright now, Romans 8:26. Now you remember, you got the priest and them praying for him and you're running your hand in your pocket, paying for it. You got Bishop Short running around here praying for you. You got HC running around here praying for you. You got Wallace running around here praying for you. You got Doctor Harris, you're depending on him to pray for you. That's that's not the way it is. Now read.
Dr. Harris: But if ye hope for that which you see not
Dr. Kinley: Now, but you hope for that which we see not
Dr. Harris: then do we with patience wait for it
Dr. Kinley: then do we with patience wait for it
Dr. Harris: likewise the spirit
Dr. Kinley: Now listen. Now you listen at me? Now Paul said, same man that just wrote about there's one mediator.., it was the same man. He's not confused about it at all. Said likewise.
Dr. Harris: the spirit also
Dr. Kinley: Now God is a spirit and He is in you since He's taken off the flesh, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name. Do you get now? Alright.
Dr. Harris: also helpeth our infirmities
Dr. Kinley: helpeth our infirmities
Dr. Harris: we know not what we should pray for
Dr. Kinley: we don't know what we should pray for
Dr. Harris: as we ought to
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Dr. Kinley: as we ought. Read.
Dr. Harris: but the spirit itself
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute Doc, the Pope himself, the priest itself, Messiah has sent Himself, Peter himself, he's the top dog. He's binding and loosing it. Messiah said, no man goeth unto the Father but by Me. He said, no man don't go to the Father but by Me, cause I'm binding and I'm loosing. 'I pay the priest to take care of that job. I'll do my washing and ironing and I'll do my welding out yonder and first one thing and another and pay the priest, that's what they're getting paid for is saying prayers.' So ____ and they're dissatisfied with their wages, forming a union now. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's right, don't believe me, it's on the TV.
But God is spirit, not the flesh. Remember He just took that off. Now Paul said the spirit itself maketh intercession, the spirit itself, not Jesus in the flesh, not Pete in the flesh, nobody, it's the spirit that makes the intercession for Peter is the same thing that makes the intercession for Paul. It's the same one that makes the intercession for Pete, it's the same one that makes it for you, from the least to the greatest. We don't have no flesh going between. We don't know nobody after the flesh, for the spirit helpeth our infirmities.
Watch this. Listen, it's the spirit itself that makes intercession between, not to Peter, not the Pope, not the pastor. And they got us thinking, said, 'well I don't know if I ought say any thing (anything?) or not, Bishop will you pray for me?' They think he's in close contact. 'Doctor Kinley, will you pray for me?' I'm saying these things, you know how to take 'em. I'm showing you the way the people are. That's alright. Bishop will pray for you, I will too, but it's the same spirit that makes intercession for me that it is with you. Did you get that one? You run around here depending on Bishop praying for you, him unlocking heaven and somebody wants to ride in on the preachers (preacher's?) back, ride in on Pete's back. You can't do that, it's the spirit.
Now I said through the years, I don't believe in you praying folks because you don't know how to pray. It's the spirit in you, that's does the praying. Well, I've been misunderstood on that. And the devil goes right to that man there, 'do you believe in prayer?' Said he don't believe in water baptism, he don't believe in prayer, foot then when he gets done with it, they say that man's worse and a anathema than I heard tell of in my life. That's what they say. Said, we don't believe in water baptism, we don't believe in foot washing, and he don't believe in none of them things. He don't believe in praying. And they actually went and said I didn't believe that there was a God, cause I try my best to tell you, don't you be deceived by this veil.
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We wanna look on beyond that veil and see that it is the spirit itself that maketh the intercession for us. We get men; me and my carnal mind. I didn't know what to pray.., all you have to do is get the prayer book. All you got to do is look at the Bible. And look how much mess we got out of that, as if as though God didn't know. You said, now here's what you say to God, 'Oh Lord, God of our fathers, God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, ____ ____ would you please forgive me for my sins.'
____ ____ they teach me, said, 'I better go and confess that to the priest.' Got you all messed up there, running confession to the priest. Confession. Well look whoever you did the mis.., the thing there you go back and tell him about it, and say, 'look, I'm real sorry, I'm sorry, I made a mistake back there, I didn't make it intentionally, and would you please forgive me?' I'm the man you trespassed against. And Messiah said this, now if you come to the altar and you remember that your brother has ought against you. He said, leave the priest that's standing right at the altar, said, leave your gift there and go your way and be reconciled with your brother. Ain't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And then, He said, come back and offer your gift. Now just in case brother wouldn't hear it, go get Wallace and Bishop Short and come back. Then if he wouldn't hear Wallace and Bishop Short, He said, then bring before the whole congregation. Then if you don't wanna hear them, that's what the Messiah said, then let him be unto thee as a publican and a heathen. He didn't say... Now the priest was standing right there at the altar. Now what good's it gonna do you to confess to him? I'm showing you how slick the devil got all them Roman Catholics and Protestants, junk all stirred up here and got these people misled and deceived. And God has made devil wise. That's what I'm telling you. That's what I'm telling you.
And you are no con.., you're no match for him at all. You have to come here and see what it's all about and understand what it's all about, cause the devil, all he's gonna do to you is rob you, gonna rob you of your money, rob you of your soul and when he gets through with you, you won't have nothing left, done lost your soul, done lost your money, done lost your friends and you don't have to hunt up no enemies. You got plenty of them.
Just done lost.., and what shall it gain you, what gain or what profiteth a man to gain the whole world and loose his soul? Now do you see how it says there? For the spirit... That's what makes the intercession. Paul said, Peter said pray for all that are in authority, kings and everybody else. Pray one for another, James, that you might be healed. But every intercession or every prayer that is made is made by the Holy Spirit and when you get down there with your head and you don't pray according to the purpose of God...
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Somebody said, 'well, look, I've been ____ for the longest ____ and I believe in God, I need a job, the Lord knows I need a job, and He said, now if you ask anything in my name that I will do.' Said, 'well now I know I'm gonna go and see about that. Go over there and see somebody about it.' He said, 'well now, look here Lord, you know I need a job, now I want you to guide and lead me to the job. I want you to guide, I want you to take care of me Lord.' And before you get anywhere, you done asked that thing amiss, cause you didn't ask it according to the purpose of God. You didn't ask it according to the purpose of God. James said the reason why you don't receive nothing is because... I ain't gonna tell you about all them so called prayers you prayed and you never got no hearing from. It's because you ask amiss. But anytime a intercession is made by the true intercessor, meaning the Holy Spirit, it never fails. Why? Because it's according to the purpose of God.
Now this bread business you're talking about. Now here's David, he said, I have been young, now I'm old. Said, one thing I have never seen, he said, the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. Now while you're running around here hiding behind something, a whole lotta dirt, presumptuous sin, you've got covered up in you and you've got the nerve, ____ now the Lord knows. He wants you to straighten that mess up. You're praying amiss, and you're really not praying, you're just talking to yourself. You get what I'm talking about? You know you ain't right like you oughta be. You know you ain't got no Holy Spirit in you making no intercession. You know in your everyday life, you're just as mean and as cross as the devil and all them different kinda things. Now you say, 'well, I'm gonna ask the Lord to give me something.' No I tell you what you need to do, you need to straighten up, because you haven't got no intercessor to ask or fight for you, you haven't got no Holy Spirit in you to make no intercession ____ ____, that's the reason why you're missing up and messing the thing all up. Well if you had, if you had that.., as David said then the righteous, they haven't never been forsaken, their seed never been begging bread. Why don't you just turn it over the other way, say, 'well look, I mean to straighten up instead of having my own righteous, the righteousness of God which is by faith. And you won't have to worry about these things. Get it? Be conscious of what you're talking about, don't run around just asking for something that just to be asking for something and you're just talking to yourself. You ain't getting no where with that. God sees all that Rog... You can't hypocrite around with Him. You can't hide nothing from God, all them presumptuous sins and then you go on top of all that ____ ____ ____ ____. Bishop, you see what I'm talking about, don't you?
Bishop Short: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: And people call that praying. I hope you've gotten something out of it. ____ you have learned something. I tried to go into the satanic side of it this time, and show you how that the devil is deceiving the people.
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Now let me say this, I wanted to go into it, but I didn't have time. This Vicarius Filii Dei that 666, that man of sin. Now if you take our book, it come at every kind of way, every kind of calculation that can be thought of. Now the Roman Catholics say that this 666 belongs on Nero. That's what that last book I brought down here and I had you read it. They say it belongs on Nero. But they're just... Now the 12th chapter of Revelation. Listen now, now the seat of the beast, the dragon gave him his seat and his power and his authority was transferred right over. Now here's the devil up here: bold, brazen, says the church is over the state now. 325. Church has the preeminence over the state, meaning that Constantine united state and church. Constantine never taught you nothing like that. But it's showing the power, church over, the church over the state...
TAPE 2, SIDE 1:
Dr. Kinley: Divided and it was passed over to the papal side and they stand around boasting and blowing about it too. Then that ____ is passed over, right over there in Vicarius Filii Dei and that's what they say, but now we ____ ____ ____ ____ V stands for five in Roman numerals, and Hebrew in the Aramaic tablets. We got that in the book, and that's what I spoke about last night.
You're used to ____ awful hard the way ____, the devil is out to give you and give you an awful hard way to go, deceive you and every kinda way, fool you. You talk about magicians, the black ____. Said, 'doc, lend me a dollar.' Said 'no, I don't have no money.' Said, 'don't tell me.' Just reached right down behind his head and pulled it out. Magician. 'Wanna play ____, doc.' Reach over on the other ____, and it looks like it's coming from there. Sleeves all rolled up. He's a magician. Saw a woman in two. Magicians. The devil's one of them kinda fellas. Do you remember Jannes and Jambres? (DR. KINLEY THROWS THE POINTER ON THE FLOOR) Throw their rods down. Do you remember? Well now the devil is on to all them tricks. God gave him power to do all them tricks in the sight of the beast. And made him wise like that. And you are no match.
And listen, you have to make sure that you are in God and God is in you, cause it won't work. And if you're deceived and fooled about it, just remember that you have a negative and a positive, both, in this world. And they're gonna remain here until the Day of Lord. They're gonna remain. And don't.., ain't no need of arguing around about it, about it at all. As these various different ones around here, they got it now in these last days. Somebody say, 'well, what church?' 'I'm preaching down on the corner such and such a thing. I was in the church of God in Christ.' Said, 'we're preaching holiness and sanctification, by the Holy Ghost.
Sounds kinda.., just like the Pope and them, they say this. Now listen, listen good at what's said. Now here's what is said. Now is said, 'well you want to g.., want you to give something Bishop, so that the priest can pray or the Pope can pray to get your relatives out of purgatory.' Got dispensation on now worth $40. You can pay it in the installment plan if you want to. Cheap. Now listen while I'm saying this to you, get you out of purgatory, out of the flames. Said, 'pray for the poor souls.' See how humble this: poor souls in the flames of purgatory. Oh, my, ____
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like that. 'Oh, I'll squeeze a dollar, I'd pay a dollar now and a dollar after a while. ____ ____ ____ ____ ____' And that's what they tell the people, that to pray 'em out of purgatory, out of the flames of purgatory. Now here's what the Book says about it, that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship, one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's son. I said the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son cleanses us from all sin. Now they're saying, roast in the flames of purgatory until every bit of the sin has been purged out of you, you are roasting, and you are paying to get them poor souls out. And that's my mother and she was a good woman, but said 'now, she's got.., if you're not fit to pay and appear in the presence of God. And the devil won't let you alone while you're walking around. He won't let you alone after you're dead. Now the de.., he gonna chase you right on down to the end.
You just might as well keep your foot steps right on, right on down to curtain day unto the end cause he's gonna be out there deceiving and fooling the people, just as long until the Messiah comes. That's what the Book said, said that He would destroy him with the brightness of His coming, and with the spirit of His mouth. So you can look for him, he's out there. I'm sorry I detained you and keep you setting here, but I hope you got something out of it.
TAPE ENDS
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20) MAY, 1968: LIVING THE LIFE: LOVE OF YAHWEH
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Los Angeles, California
audio recording received from Lamar Greer (#54A)
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog#: 68.05 L
transcribed by Shelly Andrus and Midge Hartman
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading: International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. ____ indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Previous Speakers: Drs. Farley and Snellbaker.
SIDE 1:
Moderator: I introduce the third speaker this evening, the International Dean and Founder of this school and the author of the book God the Archetype Original Pattern of the Universe, Doctor Henry C. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. Of course I know all of you know that I'm always happy and glad to talk with you about the great Creator of the universe. I know that you've enjoyed the young Dr. Farley and also Dr. Snellbaker. I wanna say that it isn't always that the people occupying this ____ up here, always speak so that the other person can understand. It doesn't make any difference how plain you speak, often times you get misunderstood. And then sometimes an expression can be used that.., missed being corrected, but it has never been my purpose to get up and to jump on somebody about something they said. I don't like to do that, but what I prefer to do is when I see something, why then I may not say nothing about it tonight and I hear the thing you say. You're not gonna say nothing that I don't pay attention to. But ____, I'll put it this way, if you're ____ ____, it is possible for us to know something that's known for an assurance.
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One of the things I want to mention about while it's on my mind is, it's my intention to make a departure from Los Angeles to Springfield, Ohio on the 16th. I've had communications from there all along. Long distance telephone calls and not only there but Little Rock, Arkansas, Birmingham, Alabama and Chicago, Detroit and elsewhere. I'm in direct contact with them all the time. And you know that we have the reports from there about the progress that they're making. Now I have said that, to say this. Often times when they call me from someplace they ask me about something.
Well, for example, I think I should say this now, as Pat.., I see you're sitting back there. You tell Clovis, your husband, that your mother, his mother is not feeling so well and all and I hope to see her in the next few days. But that that was the communication, the last communication that I had from there. But whenever something like that happens I usually always call and tell the other fellow what's going on. Now if you'll notice sometime ago, along about October or November, the doctor said that Clovis's mother didn't have but 30 days to live and she just had to die. There wasn't anything he could do for her. You remember that?
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: Well she's not quite dead yet. Now there's no need to be going on saying anything more about that. She's just not dead.
Now the reason why I mention these things to you and the thought I'm trying to get over to you is this: you hear a whole lot about God being dead and being off somewhere and you have to cry aloud and even as back there in Elijah's day.., ____ and them told those false prophets to cry aloud and all the different kinda things and maybe you might get something through to 'em.
But now my point is this: now Yahweh, it's in Him that we live and we move and have our being. It makes no difference whether you are in Los Angeles or in Ohio or anywhere in the world, why God is there, always there. Now whether you're conscience of it or not. Now then when it comes to the teaching here in this place. I tell you the truth. I fail to see, now I fail to see any legitimate reason or alibi or excuse for anybody for misunderstanding, I can't see that, anybody that wants to see. Now if you don't wanna see, then you're gonna have a problem. You're gonna have a problem. Well, we know what that problem is too. And nobody is going to profit anything by my lies and your lies. It just won't help nobody. So we just might as well come on clean. Tell it just like it is. Now if we don't wanna do that now, then we're still gonna have to do it after while.
Student Body: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: Now let me tell you this. I said here Wednesday night, Yahshua the Messiah said, that He was ____ and took as a liar. No man goes unto the Father but by Him. Now He made that statement. And somebody said, 'well where do you find that at? How do you get like that?' That was said that, ____ ____ comes to my ears.
Then another thing about that same thing, I've taken the Book and walked right down among the congregation, the audience here, and showed you where that the papacy claims that the pope has plentitude of power through indulgence to take somebody out of purgatory and put him into heaven. Now I could come back and say this to you. 'Now where you find that at?' Get the point? All of these things, you won't read the Bible to know what's in it and then when somebody comes along and tells you what's in it and then you jump up and say, 'well, where do you find that at?' Now I wanna tell you where you find it at.
Woman: Go ahead doc.
Dr. Kinley: 14th chapter of Saint John and the sixth verse.
Woman: That's a fact.
Dr. Kinley: Now you see there if any man goes to the Father but by the pope. Read it.
Mary Gross: Yahshua said unto them
Dr. Kinley: Yahshua say unto them
Mary Gross: I am the way
Dr. Kinley: I am the way
Mary Gross: the truth
Dr. Kinley: the truth
Mary Gross: and the life.
Dr. Kinley: and the life.
Mary Gross: no man cometh unto the
Dr. Kinley: no man cometh the Father
Mary Gross: but by me.
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Dr. Kinley: Are you satisfied with that? Now you can try to get by with it all you want to, but you still can't make it. Now you can't go by the honorable Elijah Mohammed. You cannot go by Bahula. You can not go by Paul. You can not go by Peter and you can not go by Henry C. Kinley.
Woman: Ha. Go ahead doc.
Dr. Kinley: Now we just might as well tell this story just like it is. And that's what we're gonna do down here. Now that's all there is to it, whether you belong to it or don't belong to it. It don't make me no difference.
The Apostle Paul said this to the Corinthians, why is it when you come together into one place that everyone of you has a doctrine? Just why is that? Why should we be preaching and teaching all of these miscellaneous doctrines. Somebody's got to be wrong somewhere. You don't even need no sense for that. Get the point? You don't even, you don't even need to be intelligent about it. Be real good and stupid, and you know all of these doctrines, these erroneous doctrines that's in the world, they just can not all be right. Then when somebody comes along and tells you the truth, it sounds just like a lie. Why because all of this erroneous stuff that you've heard all your life and now you're ____.
Now the reason why I'm talking like this, is because.., I tell you the truth, it's my desire, my heart's desire, I want every one of you.., now this is what's in me, I want every one of you setting under the sound of my voice to know the truth. I'm not against any of you. I'm for you. Now if you're wrong, I'm for you to help you to get it right. If you're right, I'm with you to help you stay right. That oughta be fair, wouldn't you say so?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Well somebody say, 'well, I know Doc, but I'm your enemy.' The Messiah said, hate your friends and love your enemies.
Woman: He loves ____.
Dr. Kinley: Love your enemy.
Woman: That's what it says.
Dr. Kinley: Now I want you to leave tonight, when you go home to hear the 11 o'clock news or in the morning or whenever, whenever the news comes on. They're talking about how many enemies they shot over there in Vietnam. Right? Now would you call that love? We don't need no sense for a lotta this stuff that we're talking about. Now look, listen, wouldn't it make sense, even if you don't know the chapter and verse where to find it there in the Bible, wouldn't it make sense, that if you come out from the Father by Him, as the Apostle Paul said... And if you don't think it's there, I will read it. Now wouldn't it make sense for you to go back to where you come. Would that make sense?
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Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: It ought to at least make a little bit of sense. If you come in that door out there, that's the way you gonna go out, wouldn't you think so? Unless you wanna jump out a window or something, lose your mind or something. That's sense.
Now what we should do is catch up on ourselves and find out what's making us so devilish contrary. Ask yourself a question. Lotta times you do things, I'm not talking about nobody in particular, I'm speaking collectively, you do things and after you get 'em done, then you wonder why in the world you did it. Ask your ownself that. Now, what we were supposed, what we're supposed to do, are you listening Wallace, what we're supposed to do is to preach and to teach in His name. And no man goes to the Father but by Him. Question, Why? Because it was by Him that he came out. Now if you don't like that, then I'll read to you, and that is the purpose in the second chapter of Ephesians, the apostle said that,
Student Body: That's right. That's right Doc.
Dr. Kinley: Then somebody always said, I got some stuff at the house. I read literature all the time. And one.., supposed to be a real smart fellow that disputed with Doctor Harris. William L. Blessing I'm talking about, he said that I got my education just like everybody else. And I said, 'no.' I had to let him know it was a result of a revelation. Well, we offered to pay his way here and put him up here in front of the class and let him go on with his items. He wouldn't come. But by and by, he was staying over here at the Embassy Auditorium. He didn't even let nobody know that he was here. And Doctor Dewey that's down in Little Rock, he just happened to pass by and seen the sign down there. He didn't have nobody down there much.
But I wanna tell you this, now this thing has been tested, it has been tried, tried by all kinds, the things that we teach here. And nobody has been able to get by. Nobody has been able to get by. You just can't fix this. And I wanna say this, that the Messiah said, My doctrine is not My own, but of Him that sent Me. Now this is not my doctrine, but this is Yahweh's doctrine, His will.
Now He's taken special pains to eliminate and to abolish our excuses for ignorance. Now listen to what I'm gonna say. If you looked in the first chapter of Saint John, this is what you'd find. You would find that John's testimony there, is that He lighteneth every man that comes into the world. Now if God hadn't made some provisions, are you listening, if He had not made some provision whereby that you could determine what the truth was, then He'd be an unjust God to leave you stupid and ignorant, not knowing no better, and then send you to a burning hell. Now that don't make no kinda sense. You wouldn't even do that yourself. Would you?
Student Body: No. That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: I don't care how mean you are, you wouldn't do that. Now this is simple, plain, easy to be understood, no excuse, none whatsoever. That's not normal. We should all speak the same thing and be perfectly joined together in the same spirit. Right?
Now at the Council of Nice or Florence or one of them councils, the Roman Catholic Church said this, they declared the infallibly of the Pope when it comes to faith and morals and doctrine. Now the Messiah said this, 'Sanhedrin Council,' said, 'be you perfect even as your Father which is in heaven.' Now those people that He said that to, they were not perfect. But I want to tell you this that with the Spirit of God in you, the genuine Spirit of God in you...
I told you the other night it would be the last time I got up here and spoke, that John said, he that is righteous is righteous, even as He is righteous. Right? Why and how'd that happen? Because it was not you, it is Him that's in you. And ____ ____, if you're a bad fellow. I told you every body (everybody?) was all right. There isn't any thing wrong with any body. You might have arthritis or something like that, well, that's common. And we're gonna get a new body anyhow, ____ immortality. So that's not when the problem is.
Where the problem is is in our conscience and in our mentality and in our comprehension and understanding. Now that's where the trouble comes in, where we're having all our problems through the mind, and then this is what we try to do. ____, I liked you pretty well. Leonard, I like you pretty well.' I'm not lying either. Well, now if I do, if I saw you make a mistake or something like that, not a premeditated thing, then what I would do, I'd come, I'd come to you and tell you, try to correct you. But now if you wasn't gonna be with, if you wasn't gonna accept chastisement, I mean by the scriptures, then I'd let you know.
Woman: Go ahead doc. Amen.
Dr. Kinley: Let you know. Now you go ahead and have it your way. So God chastiseneth (chasteneth?) everybody whom He receives and it's better to get a little fanning now. It'll give us peaceful fruits of righteousness.
So now when I'm up here it may seem like I'm all sore with you and all. I'm not against no body, but it's in.., it's that spirit that's in each one of us.
Why these women, they're the most beautiful thing you have ever seen. No, I'm not lying, Billy, I'm telling the truth. That's why God made 'em like that, for the glory of the man, at least that's what He said. Believe it or not, that's it. The men there, 'they just look fine to me, ____ real nice, real good.' Everybody. The person with the Holy Spirit in them is the most beautiful person you ever seen in your life. It just permeates and shines back at you, it just changes up everything. It's magnetic. Solomon looked at the church and he said that it was compared to a woman. Maybe you better read that. Song of Solomon 6 and 8 and just listen at that. 8:6, I believe now, been so long since I read it, it just can't come to my mind. I just want you to see what he said.
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Mary Gross: Set me a seal upon thine heart
Dr. Kinley: Where are you reading?
Mary Gross: Sorry. Song of Solomon 8:6.
Dr. Kinley: 8:6. I believe somebody might wanna know where that, as they did the other, back the other night. Said, set me as a seal upon thine heart.
Mary Gross: and as a seal upon my arm
Dr. Kinley: as a seal upon my arm. Listen.
Mary Gross: for love
Dr. Kinley: for love
Mary Gross: is strong as death
Dr. Kinley: love is strong as death. Did you ever stop to think about that. You talk about your long winded words, the philoprogenitiveness. John 3:16. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed in Henry C. Kinley.
Student Body: No.
Dr. Kinley: You see how stupid we are. That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The apostles say... What is the definition of the meaning of the word philo-pro-genitiveness? Instinctive love of offspring. That's the, that's the definition, that's the meaning of it. Now we are, the Acts of Apostles said, Paul told the Greeks, said, we are the offspring of God. Now God with His instinctive love for His offspring gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish. And Solomon is saying here talking about that, Solomon said, set me, the church, the congregation, the assembly, the bride, set me as a seal upon thine heart, a seal upon thine heart for love is strong as death. And proved it right out there. Read.
Mary Gross: jealousy
Dr. Kinley: jealousy
Mary Gross: as cruel as the grave
Dr. Kinley: is as cruel as the grave
Student Body: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: is as cruel, is as cruel as the grave. When a man is dead, dead and buried in the grave, he has no way of escape. It holds in bondage of death. You talking about the Israelites being down in Egypt in bondage. Death. Cruel as the grave. That's the reason why when Yahshua the Messiah rose from the dead he brought to life, life and immortality. So says the apostle. It's wonderful. Now the cost isn't all this great, and yet it's a pretty expensive thing, cause what you have to do, you have to carry so much of that junk you think off to the dump. There ain't no need to try to save none. That picking around out here, 'I know this is right.' Just take a wheelbarrow, just take the whole thing right straight on to the dump cause it's wrong from start to finish.
Student Body: Okay.
Dr. Kinley: 'Why did you say that?' The end was declared from the beginning. Now if the end was declared from the beginning, you don't get way down here in the middle and fix it up. You can't start wrong and end up right. You've got to start right. So you just might as well go on back and get the root of it. Get the point? And then you'll find it like this, that it works, it works through all of the dispensations and ages. It never does digress, it never does deviate, it just never does that. There's no excuse for nobody's stupidity. Now sit right where you are. Back into the lesson that we had. Set me as a seal upon thine heart, a seal upon thine heart, for love is strong as death, jealousy is as cruel as the grave. Is that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Alright, read.
Mary Gross: the coals thereof
Dr. Kinley: the coals thereof
Mary Gross: are coals of fire
Dr. Kinley: are coals of fire
Mary Gross: which hath
Dr. Kinley: which hath
Mary Gross: a most vehement flame
Dr. Kinley: which hath a most explosive and vehement flame. Alright, read.
Mary Gross: many waters can not
Dr. Kinley: many waters, many waters, many waters, even the flood, many waters can not quench love. Alright, read on.
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Mary Gross: neither can the flood drown it
Dr. Kinley: neither can the floods drown it
Mary Gross: if a man would give all the substance....
Dr. Kinley: Now look here, if a man would give all the substance of his house for love. It's not for sale, you just can't buy it. If you would give all the substance of your house for love, ____ ____. You just can't buy love. I don't care how much money you got. Tell me there's two and three billionaires, he don't have enough money to buy love. You talk about Paul Getty and H. L. Hunt, and those boys the multimillionaires, if they'd give whole thing, they just couldn't buy it. Now we need to get that learned. Now jealousy is cruel as the grave. Floods and fires and nothing can quench love. Yahweh is love. God is love. There's no way you can quench it, no way you could drown it, there's no way you could overcome it. 'Say listen here, how do you know whether you're saved or lost?' You don't have to move off these chairs. Just keep your seat, keep your seat. John put it this way. We know that we have passed from death to life. 'How do you know?'
Woman: When you love the brethren.
Dr. Kinley: When we love the brethren. Now if you don't love the brethren then you know you haven't passed from death to life. Now there ain't no need to arguing around about it. You don't have to go around and ask nobody, 'how am I doing?' You don't have to bother with nothing like that,
Woman: Go ahead.
Dr. Kinley: Sitting right on the seat, right where you are.
Woman: That's right. Individual.
Dr. Kinley: If you love the brethren.
Woman: That's it.
Dr. Kinley: You're lost, that's what your troubles are. I don't care who you are. And that's how you know, you know personally and individually. Often times this is what we do unconsciously, we'll get some silly notion in our head, some doctrinal notion and because somebody else don't see it like we do, snub 'em.
Woman: My Lord. That does happen. It does happen that way.
Dr. Kinley: There ain't nobody saved but you. Now that don't make no kinda sense, does it? That's the reason why I've always been free with this pulpit. If there's anybody around that knows anymore about it than me, or even if you don't know as much about it as me, that's a ____ ____ ____. And I don't care about your skirt nor
your pants either. Get the point? Yes indeed. There isn't
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any male nor female, bond nor free. Isn't that right?
Woman: They didn't hear you Doc.
Dr. Kinley: So now I wanna put it down there just like it is.
Now there's one more thing. If you don't remember nothing else that I said tonight, remember this. The time is short. This age is coming to a close. I noticed that Doctor Leonard or one of 'em put this up here. Now look, now this is the age where we're living in. The present age, but there's one.., there's some more coming. This is not all of it. Now by teaching.., somebody went out, Jack Parr, one of 'em when we was in Hollywood, was talking about a beauty pageant. The beautiful girls around. He said there's a man right down the street from him down there, that said the world was coming to an end. And he said he was gonna have his fun and all, and he's gonna carry that pageant on just the same. And we've had some come to school down here and said, 'well if the world comes to the end and God's gonna burn up the world, then it won't last long nohow.' Said, 'how you get back...?' Take cremation out here in the cemetery, it don't take too long to burn up a body. And they're walking around defying God, saying, 'that man said that the world is coming to an end, and I just might just as well have a good time now, if it's gonna come to an end.' You better get that kinda spirit out of you. And listen the world is coming to an end whether you believe it or not. And that wouldn't be the first time. It come to the end, it's come to an end before. Now somebody said, 'well I don't believe that stuff.' Now I'm not responsible for your ignorance. It has come to an end before, twice before. And if it's come to an end twice before, it's gonna come to an end again. Then after we get to that end, it's gonna come to another end. How you like that? Now you can go away and tell 'em that man said so, if you want to, but I didn't say it, the Book said it's so. The ages and dispensations of time.
You know another thing, I wanna mention to you is this, which I'm sure they are, there is hardly anybody that's setting under the sound of my voice but what hasn't wondered something about it. And it is something to think about. They wonder why that if there is a God, well the people often ask this question. 'If there is a God, why does He permit such atrocities, so many murders, so much wrong doing in the world. Now if there's a God, why does He allow all of that to happen?' It's something to think about. Haven't you wondered about that? Answer me.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed.
Woman: I know.
Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed. Now if you just look and seen what the Messiah said in the 24th chapter of Matthew, in the 21st chapter of Luke, and the 13th chapter of Mark you got a clean cut clear picture of today.
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Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now listen, Williams, if these people back here, well let's say from here and back under the law, this is the flood here. Now I'm speaking collectively. Now the prophets they did prophesy with the Holy Spirit back here. Yes, they did, every last one of 'em. But now this is the flood, this is the end of this world or a age. Now here we come down to the crucifixion and Pentecost here, now that's the end of that age. Now we'll put this up here. E N D. We'll put E N D up here. (DR. KINLEY WRITES ON THE BLACK BOARD.) Now that's the end.
Now we're coming down to the end of this one. Now there's 7 ages and dispensations of time. You get the point? Now what do we see here in this present age. In this present age, now listen at me close, because I'm speaking collectively now. Remember I told you that the prophets, that they prophesied with the Holy Spirit from Enoch, the seventh from Adam, all the way down, they prophesied with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven. Same Holy Spirit that you and I have got. You listening? You sure you're listening? But now those were individuals that God had chose to prophesy. Well what's the difference between that and now? He poured out His spirit on all flesh and they shall all.., that's the New Covenant, and they shall all know me from the least to the greatest. Well now listen close. Then all the devils, if you wanna call 'em that, and all the demons, that ever was in heaven and cast out into the earth... I told you this before and I'm doing nothing but repeating it now. You have the Holy Spirit in you. You are prepared to stand against all of the wiles of the devil, more so now than there ever have been in the history of the world. That's the reason why it's as bad as it is.
Student Body: That's right. I see.
Dr. Kinley: That's why the Messiah said what He did. You understand now? Now if you look in the 24th chapter of Matthew, 21st chapter of Luke. You oughta read sometime. He said, many false prophets, not a few, but many false prophets shall go out and they shall deceive, not a few, many. When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation. You know what the abomination of desolation means, it means it's a abominable thing that makes a thing desolate. Desolate. This is Satan's realm. Prince of the power of the air. He's incarnated in these physical bodies. You're talking about murder and jealousy, they'll shoot you down and even get used to it. Don't think no more about killing somebody than you do about setting down eating your breakfast. Gets toughened to it. A lot of 'em got rich, they'd kill their own mothers and fathers, do things you'd just wouldn't think a person would do.
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SIDE 2:
Dr. Kinley: Here right in your own family, Messiah said so. You don't believe me, there it is in the Book, you got it. Said a mother, a daughter would be against her mother, and a mother against her daughter. In your house. Father against a son and a son against a father. What makes that? He that is born after the flesh persecutes him that's born after the spirit, he can't see, don't think in that category, don't think in that realm at all. Obedience. No. You talk about obey God, there ain't, they won't even obey their own parents. Now that's the shape we're in today. And with all of these false prophets and all of these erroneous doctrines... Why there's so many different churches. Here last week they got a change of it. They been negotiating for a long time. They're merging. And they're still talking about that there ought be some more mergers. You all like this kinda preaching.
Student Body: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: Now you see this, that's the reason why, that's what we're showing up here on this chart. We didn't have room for all of these over here, that's what we choice Steven. Anti-Christ, pagan and papal persecution, false prophets, false anti-christs. False Anti-christ. One come along just to show you some of the different...
One come along. Say, 'well I'm a vegetarian. I read my... I mentioned this last night on the Les Spring show.' There's a man from India, Yoga ____ and Joe Kline says, 'well, why don't you all instead of starving to death, eat up some of them cows you got out there, instead of you running over here telling us about what to do, why don't you teach some in your own country, why don't you eat some of 'em.' And he said 80% of the people in India were vegetarians, vegetarians. Now Paul spoke about that, here's one believing, eating herbs, and another one thinks he can eat meat and all like that. Now listen, we got all of these chronologically and what not. And can I just go ahead and can I just go on and talk like I want to. Carnal ordinances. You oughta be able to understand that.
And some... you got another one there on TV giving exercise. (DR. KINLEY APPEARS TO BE DOING SOME FORM OF EXERCISE) Getting kinda red. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And all that kinda thing. We just got some of everything you can think of, all you have to do is name it and we got it. Doctrine. Now, what did Paul say about that exercise?
Student: Bodily exercise profiteth nothing.
Dr. Kinley: I just want you see now, I just want you to see about it. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) They didn't know, they didn't even know there's anything in the Bible about it. Now here's God tells the Children of Israel to slay a lamb and eat it. And now here you are out here talking about, it's a sin to eat meat. And the same God that had the meat, is the same God that growed the wheat and that stuff out there, herbs they're eating. The devil just don't give a hoot what kind of a lie he tells you. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) And whether you eat or don't eat, you're gonna be
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changed. It ain't gonna make it no better whatsoever for you. But the devil got any kinda soup or nuts you want. You know what I mean by that, don't you? Just any kind of a doctrine. You got some doing... 'What are you doing?' Said, 'Well, I'm taking my exercises.' Paul said bodily exercises... Don't, didn't he tell Timothy that?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you don't think it's in the Bible, I'll read it before I go home what Paul said about it. And he said meat that God has created to be received with thanksgiving. Abstaining or partaking, you can die from different things, gonna be changed. And listen, let me tell you, I told you this the other night. It don't make no difference how you live. Holy. You get to the place where you're just untouchable. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) It don't make no difference how cute you are, everybody's got to be changed.
Woman: Oh, lordy. My lord. This is ____.
Dr. Kinley: Now you see what I mean?
Woman: Yeah, boy.
Dr. Kinley: I tried to tell you so that you could get some sense out of it.
Woman: ____ ____ doc.
Dr. Kinley: Get some understanding out of it. The devil just done told us everything. Got us all sore at one another. Say, 'what are you?' 'Well,' say, 'I'm a Baptist. Yes I'm a Baptist bred, and I'm a Baptist born and when I die, I'll just be a Baptist gone.' 'How long have you been a Baptist?' 'Too long to change.' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS)
Woman: That man knows what he's talking about.
Dr. Kinley: 'If I change my mother, my father'd turn over in their graves.'
Woman: Go ahead.
Dr. Kinley: And then somebody's stupid enough to come along and say, 'well listen, I've been a Republican all my life, if I'd voted Democrat, taken my father.' We're just nothing. All this old superstition and tradition and custom, foolish stuff, mess, junk, that we've got. That's trash. And you can know the truth and it's, ain't nothing else gonna free you but the truth.
And here's another bad habit we got. We wanna run out and tell somebody else how to live and we don't know ourselves.
Student Body: That's right.
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Dr. Kinley: That's right. You just want somebody else to know how, know how to live, and here we don't know our self. We take glory in trying to tell somebody else what we don't know our ownselves, I'm speaking collectively.
Woman: That's alright.
Dr. Kinley: And if you'd follow some of us home. That's right.
Woman: I wouldn't follow 'em now.
Dr. Kinley: You'd just follow some of us home and stay around there, you won't have to stay a whole week.
Woman: I ain't gonna ____, ____ they gonna bothering me, I ain't going home.
Dr. Kinley: No, you won't have to be bothered a whole week. No indeed. You'd have a change of mind. But children, you just might as well straighten up and fly right cause the time is short. It's short. There's salvation. Now we tried to show you that love, you can't purchase it. And you know within yourself whether you're what you oughta be or not, whether you love someone or not? Is that right?
Student Body: That's right Doc.
Dr. Kinley: It don't make no difference about what somebody else says. It don't make no difference how, what you was last week.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: What are you tonight?
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: You all like that kinda teaching?
Woman: I love it. I love it.
Student Body: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: Now that's just plain easy to be understood talk, just child talk so you can understand. The Holy Spirit in our hearts, in our minds, it'll just simply make you behave. You can't, you can't, you can't do wrong with the Holy Spirit in you. Now listen as many, as many as are lead by the spirit, they are the sons of God. It's them that are led by the Spirit, not them that's led by the false prophets and doctrines and ideologies and opinions and concepts of men. Now you can go around here making on like you got something all you want to, but there's a time when there's gonna be a show down. Yes sir. Matthew 7:22. Yahshua the Messiah said this. He would sit on the throne of glory and all nations shall be gathered before Him. Are you listening? And He said, verily; well maybe you better read it cause somebody don't wanna, 'no it just don't sound right.' You get
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the point? If you say that it don't sound like.., when you're reading out of the Bible, they can get it if somebody reads the Bible just like you do. The Mormons say that, that the Book ain't right. And this other fellow I told you about that Doctor Harris wrote to, he said that some people over there in Africa, he said, 'don't nobody know where they come from.' Now I'll bring the book down and let you read. Now here he wants to, here he's debating with somebody. Anybody that stupid? Read Matthew 7:22.
Mary Gross: Many will say unto me in that day
Dr. Kinley: Now, not a few, now many false prophets shall go out and many shall be deceived and many shall say unto me in that day
Mary Gross: Rabbi, rabbi
Dr. Kinley: Rabbi, Master. Read.
Mary Gross: Did we not eat and drink in thy name?
Dr. Kinley: Didn't we not eat and drink in your name?
Mary Gross: And in thy name have cast out
Dr. Kinley: And in thy name cast out devils
Mary Gross: And in thy name done many wonderful things
Dr. Kinley: And in thy name done many wonderful things
Mary Gross: And then will I say unto
Dr. Kinley: Whoa, whoa, hold it. No ma'am, no sir. Uh, uh. Many baptized out there in the water, in His name. 'We had 7,000 or so many thousand converts in Madison Square Garden, great revival.' Jehovah's Witnesses. 'We done all that in your name.' One of the first things when you go to talk to anybody about any vision. 'Now how many folks in your church?' That's what the government wants to know now about this school. You know why they wanna know? It's so they can judge the.., count fifty cent or a dollar a head and judge, what you teach in order to cover they didn't get not report on it. 'How many subjects you got.' Now if you can tell 'em something about how many you got in there then they can kinda judge. See the point? Everything they done, they done it in His name so they thought. Repeat it over again.
Mary Gross: Many will say unto me in that day
Dr. Kinley: Many will say unto me in that day
Mary Gross: Rabbi, rabbi.
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20) MAY, 1968: LIVING THE LIFE: LOVE OF YAHWEH
Dr. Kinley: Rabbi or master, master.
Mary Gross: Did we not eat and drink in your
Dr. Kinley: Didn't we not eat and drink and take the suppers and all and everything in your name.
Mary Gross: And in thy name have cast out
Dr. Kinley: And in thy name cast, look at the devil talking about the devil too. In Thy name, we've cast out devils. See that? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Then what's gonna happen?
Mary Gross: and in thy name done many wonderful works
Dr. Kinley: and in thy name done many wonderful things. A world famous psychologist, a world famous individual, just great power authority, Paul going in there, walking around. (DR. KINLEY STOMPS AROUND) All in the name. Pass their little cup, '____ ____,' all in the name. Down here breaking down segregation in Washington. All in the name. That's right. That's to win converts in the name. And then what?
Mary Gross: and then will I say
Dr. Kinley: and then will I say
Mary Gross: I never knew you
Dr. Kinley: I never even knew you
Mary Gross: depart from me
Dr. Kinley: you, you depart from me
Mary Gross: you that work iniquity.
Dr. Kinley: ye that work iniquity. You know what the trouble is. They don't see that the natural is blotted out or fulfilled. In the name. Spirit's in your heart and mind, it's not a case of foot washing now. That, that was a carnal ordinance, and they would ____ a part of your Oops. Your ____ ____ ____, that's it. Nailed to the cross. It was imposed on them. Them who? Imposed on the Jews. How long? Till the reformation. And they were nailed to the cross. And now here they got up here, 'eat this and don't eat that.' They're carrying on all kinds of foolishness, and just everything you can think of. Call theirself miracle worker. And some preacher standing around making a idiot and a fool out of you. Said, Solomon said, or somebody said cast your bread upon the waters and after many days. I'll be through in a minute. He'll return unto you. Somebody standing around crying. Said, 'Dr. Kinley told you or so and so just told you, he preached a good sermon. I'm gonna do all I can to help the Lord.' Now he's doing something to help the
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Lord. And you know it's terrible. And he done give everything almost he's got there and these little babies running around under footed, got it backwards, and he's got nothing to eat at home. And he can't go up to the grocer and buy a loaf of bread and a little butter to go on it. He gets the butter, then the bread's gone. If he gets the bread, then he ain't got enough to buy the butter.
Woman: You all come up here and dress up.
Dr. Kinley: All that kinda stuff. 'What you doing that for?' Said, 'I'm helping God, he that ____ unto the Lord.' I know what's in that Book, and all them different kinda stuff. Yes it's terrible. And here we go down, no salvation, and then I told you don't follow us home. And you get home, and you kinda die down, spirit kinda died on you. He even begin to wonder who you can borrow a dollar from. You know he ain't gonna pay you back. Said, 'well, look here I can't got no loan from down to the loan company I owe everybody.' Come to scratching your head, 'I wonder if so and so and so...' And here you'll give away everything you had. And this is what Paul said. Are you listening, Freddie?
Fred Allen, Jr.: Sure am.
Woman: Good.
Dr. Kinley: He said if he'd give all his goods to feed the poor. Then carry on, get his body to be cremated or offered up, and he didn't have charity. It wouldn't profit him a thing. It won't help you a bit. Then when you get through with that, then somebody said, 'Say I thought you had a little piece of money here. What'd you do with it?' Said, 'well, I tell you, I'm doing all I can for the church.' And he said, 'I put it in church.'
Woman: And all they got.
Dr. Kinley: And then.., you know what that fellow calls him? Say, 'Well listen, you're a fool.' Any way you go, you're a fool. Put it in the poor box. Did this, did that, and did the other. You're a fool. And here we go. You get up and you start up yonder. 'We don't believe in Bibles?' (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) I'll tell you, Freddy, it's a dog. It's something else. You may not believe in Bibles, which we don't, and fail to believe in God. And ____ ____ just the same. ____ ____ ____. It won't.., nothing won't help you. Now that's the only thing... I'll put it like this. Now God gave His only, that is to say, He just simply gave all He had. He went bankrupt, sure enough for you and for your salvation.
Woman: That's it.
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Dr. Kinley: And you can go around here doing all these wonderful things you wanna do. And you fail to break the thought, you fail ____ ____ ____. You're carried away with some false idea, some false notion, some false doctrine. You don't believe in Bibles, you don't believe in it, you don't believe in that and all that kinda thing. And if you're not real careful, you got the wrong idea anyhow, if you're not real careful and you're trying to be nice, somebody come along and punch you real hard, you'll find that, you'll find out you'd do something you didn't thought, you didn't think you did, they punch you, you done, 'you don't believe in..,' and you done mashed somebody in the mouth. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Then you got killed or something. You don't believe in violence though. That's what you're talking about and that's what you're teaching. The devil here now get to rubbing you ____ right on and you'll find out what... You get what I mean? You better have the right thing in you. Yes indeed. Cause he'll make you prove it.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: (LAUGHS) Paul said prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. If you say you're right, like you ought to be, if you are our epistle read and known of all men. Now if you're right like you ought to be, you still gotta job to prove it. You all got enough of this now?
Woman: No, we ain't. No, we ain't. Uh, uh.
Dr. Kinley: But now listen children.
Woman: We ain't got enough.
Dr. Kinley: The truth is the light of the world. That's all with God. And if you believe in Him, now He did the work that you might... Grace is not a work. You didn't earn a thing of it. God is not obligated to you for nothing. For by grace are you saved through faith, listen, and that's not of yourself. 'I bought it.' No, it's a gift freely given of God. Now I'm just about through with that. But this is how I preach as I go around and as I try to teach. I try to teach people the real genuine thing. That is ____, ____ with me. It's your soul that's been saved. You know whether you're right or wrong. There ain't no need of you letting somebody come along and lure you down there saying, 'you're something,' and you know good and well you're nothing. It ain't gonna help you none. Somebody come along and say, 'well sister, brother,' said, 'belong down yonder?' 'Yeah, I'm one of 'em.' 'You belong to that Institute?' 'Yeah, I belong to the Institute.' Say look that's not gonna get it, belonging to the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research, that's not gonna get it. You have to be in the Kingdom of Yahshua. Now that'll get it. Somebody says, 'well I'm following Kinley,'
Woman: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: that's not gonna get it.
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Woman: That's what I say. Amen.
Dr. Kinley: You follow me. Now Paul puts it this way. You follow me as I follow Yahshua the Messiah. Oh, there's some more things I could tell you that are very, very important in this day. That's why we had to, had it read a while ago. It's about hooked right up with what you just read there. In that day, many shall come and say, 'haven't we done many wonderful thing in your name. Look at all them converts we had. Look at how we labored.' To get all these folks ____ and then He set there and tell you, said, 'depart from Me you that work iniquity I never knew you.' Got you saved by the works. And then somebody had the nerve to turn over there in James said, 'faith without work is dead.' Well faith without works is dead,
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: but it don't say nothing about the works of the law. Dead works. You're not under the law. Then you get off of the job, that's your works. Messiah said, faith is, this is the work that, He said it, now if you don't think he said it, all you have to do is stick up your paw, I, I'll prove it to you. Said, this is the work, and it's a great big job too. This is the work. That you believe on Him that sent Me. That's what He said.
Look, let me tell you something and then I'm through. When it comes right down to looking at a man. Look at one another, looking at a man. It is a pretty tough thing to see how that the Creator of this universe can get in a little fellow like this and walk around. That's pretty, that's a pretty tough job. Look how big the sun is, look how big the moon is and look at how big the earth is. Here's the faith, to get in a little fellow like this and walk around. Now that's a great big job. Now you got yourself a job there. And say He had to prove that thing too, cause you just don't come along and say that so and so and so and so and so and buy it... He had, He had to prove that thing. Now how's He gonna prove it, that, that's what the Creator is incarnated in a physical body. How's He gonna prove that?
Now the sun and moon, and the elements and all functions right with it, when you understand. When He was.., Adam is driven out of the Garden, the sun is going down. Now Adam was the Son of God, so Luke says in the third chapter and the last verse. Now here's the Son of God. And He died out on the cross, the Sun was going down. He would die and very early in the morning, and the sun come up and you reach it's zenith in the sky, very early in the morning He resurrected from the dead. See how that sun out in the sky and the Son here work together. Oh, I could just go on and on and on and tell you many different things.
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Now He said, I'm the Resurrection and the Life. Somebody said, 'I don't believe that.' Well, how'd it go to the cemetery? Man dead four days. They rolled the stone away, then He knelt down, tears rolling down His checks (cheeks?). 'Oh, what's the matter.' It's a hard thing for them to believe that He was the Resurrection and the Life. He had an awful job, He wasn't bothered about Lazarus. No, He wasn't bothered about that at all, about that, about that, about them, our heart, their heart and then ____. And when they seen Him cry, said, 'He must have loved him.' Tears rolling down His checks (cheeks?), walked just until.., now listen, He'd better say this this way. He said, 'Lazarus.' You better identify who you're talking about cause if He don't, you're gonna have a, you're gonna have a whole lotta something else. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) I'll prove that to you in just a minute. He said, 'Lazarus, come forth.' Now he'd been dead four days. Now how can a man like that call a man that's been dead four days. Deterioration, disintegration had begin. ____. Here he comes, bound and wrinkled. Said, 'loose him and let him go.' Said, 'that was a wonderful thing.'
Matthew 27:52. Here when He died and rose from the dead Himself. If you read your Book, many of the saints that slept in the dust of the earth from Adam on down, rose and went on into Jerusalem, and appeared to many. And Paul said there in the 15th chapter of first Corinthians, he said, many there remain even, when he wrote his epistle to the Corinthians, were scared alive until that day they saw it. Oh I tell you, ____ ____ when you believe that such a thing could be, that ____ a little bitty boy like that. It's a big job. It ain't much of a job to wash somebody's feet. It ain't much of a job to punch somebody in water. That ain't no job at all. You need a bath once in a while anyhow. Sure you do. A little deodorant will tough it out.
Woman: Yeah.
Dr. Kinley: But I'm telling you the truth. When it comes to you believing in Him being the Resurrection and God giving Him and that's the Creator of the world incarnated in that body. Boy you got yourself a job.
Student Body: Yeah indeed.
Dr. Kinley: To Believe that such a thing could be. Now that's a great big job, believing on Him that sent Me, that you believe. Prophets said, 'behold, look, you despisers, wonder and perish. I'll work a work in your day.' 'What are you doing?' 'I'm fulfilling the law and the prophecy. Now I'll work a work in your day that you shall not believe though a man declare it unto you.' Go out there and raise somebody from the dead and all these saints that slept in the dust of the earth, the 37th chapter of Ezekiel. That's where God said He'd lay sinew upon 'em and bring 'em on up out of the graves, proving that He was the Messiah. Proving that He was the One. Now that's a great big job. That amounts to far more than washing somebody's feet or somebody with some dietary regime, or somebody abstaining from this and partaking of that and all that kinda junk. Did you all get anything out
Woman: Go on.
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Dr. Kinley: of what I'm trying to say to you?
Woman: We enjoyed it. I am...
Dr. Kinley: You got anything out of it? Have you got anything out of it?
And you within yourself, Leonard you don't need me to come around and tell you, 'Leonard you're not right.' You know that. Now if your conscience condemn you, so says John, God is greater than your conscience. You're the loser. You're gonna have to stand before and give, and give an account of the deeds done while you're in the body. Mamma and Papa, they ain't they, they can't help you. The pope can't do nothing about it. Where he gonna be? Well I'll tell you where he's gonna be, he's gonna be in the Lake. That's where the Book said he's gonna be. Said the beast and the false prophet, didn't say he was going either, said he'll be.
Now you just might as well, as I said, time is short, and you just might as well get on down to business with yourself and be honest with our ownselves. It's your soul. I'm not trying to lead you into believing that I'm any great anything at all. But I wanna tell you something, I'm as great as you make 'em.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Ain't nobody on earth any greater than me. And I don't mind nothing. Do you understand? And the greater you get to be, you know what you are? Well somebody, (DR. KINLEY STOMPS AROUND) like. (STOMPS) You go running around, hollering. He's the servant of all, that's what the Messiah said.
Woman: He turned the other check.
Dr. Kinley: You people ____ ____ and everything else. I've been beat up bodily. Yes, blood, sweat and tears. Sure enough nobody taking nothing out of me. I seen what I seen, I don't have to ask nobody about it. Say, I'm not depending on you to save me. Doctor Bob, I like you pretty well, but I know you ain't got nothing in that pill grip that's gonna save me. You just don't have it. It takes something better that. Yes, I preach it all,
Woman: Glory.
Dr. Kinley: but it takes something more than that.
Woman: Hallelujah.
Dr. Kinley: It takes Lord God
Woman: Glory, my Lord.
Dr. Kinley: ____ ____ ____. Now let's be honest about it.
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Woman: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: I hope you got something
Woman: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: out of it.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS)
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21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley
Los Angeles, California
audio cassette recording received from Lamar Greer (#54B)
1 90 minute audio cassette
Catalog #: 68.0512
transcribed by Kevin Barnes
first proofreading: Michael Rothstein
second proofreading: Gerry Rothstein
third proofreading, International Public Relations Committee
approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1997
PROOFREADERS' NOTES:
1. ... indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.
2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.
3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, see, you see, you see what I mean, you follow, is that right.)
4. indicates an inaudible word or syllable
5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber
Previous Speaker: Dr. Robert Harris.
Moderator: Doctor Henry C. Kinley, Dr. Kinley.
Dr. Kinley: Thanks. I know all of you enjoyed the...
Student Body: Oh yeah. That's right.
Dr. Kinley: I sure did, if you didn't, you just didn't have the right thing in you. Now you'll have to admit to yourself, whether that's right any how. You have been fed tonight, ____ Springfield has been fed. It's hard to pull out of you, but never the less (nevertheless?), it's true. You know as I set there and listen at him talk, preach the gospel, I thought many things and I think I wanna tell you of a few of the things that I thought about. See what you think about it. Now we wrote a book and in that book we just come right out... Has anybody got one of the books here?
Student: Billy Carrol
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21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
Dr. Kinley: Billy Carrol has got one. I want you to know what I'm talking about. I don't want you to be in the dark. Take the book and you can find one of them things. Now this is what I thought about as I set there in my seat and thought. We wrote that book. Now nobody wants to print it. The man that did print it, I'm talking about Garette. He lost his wife, divorced; sixteen year old daughter; he had a filling station; he had apartments, a motel. He was doing pretty good. Now he lost the whole thing, and then got, not only run out of town, but run out of the country. He did that. And during the process of making that book, he said to me, said, 'well Dr. Kinley,' says, 'I'll tell you something.' He said now, 'it's against the rule or it's against the law first for me to publish anything like this.' And then next to that he said, 'they'll wanna kill me for doing it. And then they'll wanna get you for writing it and make publishment.' Now as many as you might think about it, we have had people that come here and set in this audience and get up and go out of this audience and write threatening statements back. In this audience.
Now I'm gonna tell you what's wrong with the book. Why they do not wanna publish it. They don't wanna have nothing what so ever (whatsoever?) to do with it, and that's the reason why I had to quit writing. We sent it to... What's the name of that?
Student: Vantage Press.
Dr. Kinley: Vantage Press. You see it advertised all the time in the papers. Dr. Gross sent it to the...
Dr. Gross: McGraw Hill.
Dr. Kinley: McGraw and Hill, biggest publishing company in the world. And when we first wrote the book we sent it to England and of course they was gonna do something with it until they got into the pages and found out what was in it. And then they cabled us back and said, 'look.' Said, 'we're sorry we cannot publish your book and it's being returned to you by mail.' And further stated that if we print this book, all of our people that work for us will go out on strike. Don't we have the paper at home?
Student: Right.
Dr. Kinley: We can bring the letter out here and show 'em to you. Well now here's what's wrong. Now whenever I get ready to talk, say something about the devil, I just point him out and say that's him. Now they don't like that. For example, in the book, in the book. I'm not gonna go into no heated preaching here today. I just wanna show you, just, just how, how objectionable the things are of John Paul, some of the statements.
Page 2
21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
Now what we did, what we did, we asked permission, written permission. And it is published there in the first part of that book that they did give us permission to use the photographs, the actual photograph of the Vatican. And Pope John the 23rd that is his picture, that is Pope Pius the 12th picture. No fooling. And that book is documented. I don't just go and stick my chin out. I just did what they say. Now they wanna kill me for what they said, and for what the Bible said. I don't stick my chin out Clive. If you read that book and you looked at it, you'll find what they said. And I got permission. And I just put it in there like they said it, cause if I didn't and they'd get me for misrepresentation. That's lying on 'em. Get the point? And if I didn't put in there the quote that was in the Bible, they'd have me again. Right?
Now it's against the law, sociology, for me to put Pope John's picture in that book and say what I said about him, that the scriptures says about him; for me to wise you all up. Now where I'm having my troubles at, is just on account of telling you, I don't tell you nothing else only what God said and what the other fella out there said. Now you wanna jump all over me about that. I say, I said it's unfair. Don't you say so Bishop?
Bishop Short: Yes, it is.
Dr. Kinley: That's just unfair. Now God gave the dimensions in the Bible for the tabernacle. I didn't do it. What do you wanna jump on me about that for? He said it was a pattern. If you don't believe me, you read Exodus 25:40 and Hebrews 8:5. Now along comes somebody else with their arguing and concept, and they'll say this. The universal mind, that's one. The subconscious mind, that's two. The conscious mind, that's three. Said, 'first...' Listen, how do you know the difference between the universal mind and the subconscious mind? How do you know? Give me some idea about the change over and what's taking place. Get the point? How'm I supposed to know which one's in operation? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now do you see what I mean? And I suppose didn't wanna talk to him because I asked him the question. I'd tell him what God said. They don't know that He said it. And then they come along and said, 'who said that?' (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Now that's what's going on in this school, they don't want you to tell on them. They go out there and build these great monumental structures and they've got these religious forms. And Paul said, having a form of godliness, but denying the power. They've all got a ritualistic course of procedure. And they're saying that, and saying this, and they're saying the other thing. And Messiah said they would say... He said they'd say this. He said they'd say, 'Lo here,' another one say, 'Lo there.' One would say it's in the valley. Another one say it's in the desert. One said it's in Rome. Now what must I do about it? He said believe it not, don't you believe that. Get the point? The Baptist they say, 'well, we're right over here, go over here.' The Church of Christ say, 'look over here, go over here, we're right.' And all them different kinda things. Then when you call 'em to prove it, can't do it.
Page 3
21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
You got one of them pictures. Dr. Gross this why you can't get this book published.
Dr. Gross: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Now if you don't know... We have to send the book up to the publishers, and so they can look it over before they decide whether they wanna publish it or not. Now if you just went ahead on and got yourself some chalk or something or other and just drawed yourself some kind of a diagram in here, then almost anybody could come along and say, 'well, that's a lie.' But when you come and taken actual photographs like this, (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) you're finished. Don't nobody want nothing to do with it. They just don't want a thing to do with it. See this? This is the actual photograph of Pope Pius the 12th. Now things that they have said we put in this book. But now you're not supposed to pass 'em out.
Did you ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition, how they burned up all of the books. Roman Catholics gathered 'em up and burned up all the books that said anything about them, that was contrary against them. They burned 'em up. Now when some Protestant comes along and says something against the Roman Catholic Church, if he doesn't have some way of proving it, then it's just his opinion of something, why they don't pay no attention to him. And the most of 'em are even afraid to say anything about it. Why? Because he gets bumped off. And they've killed up just millions upon top of millions. And now why is it you can't see that that's the devil, when the scripture said the devil is a m... Maybe you better read it. Maybe you didn't know it was in there. Maybe that's why you didn't take exception to it. Now, here's what they said they done. They said they killed in defense of the church. It's John 8:44.
Reader: Ye are of your Father the devil...
Dr. Kinley: Now ye are of your Father. Read, I'm in a hurry.
Reader: the adversary
Dr. Kinley: the adversary
Reader: and the lust of your Father
Dr. Kinley: Now the lust of your father you will do
Reader: he was a murderer
Dr. Kinley: he was a murderer
Reader: from the beginning
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21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
Dr. Kinley: from the beginning
Reader: and abode not in the truth
Dr. Kinley: and abode not in the truth
Reader: because there is not truth in him
Dr. Kinley: because there's no truth in him
Reader: when he speaketh a lie
Dr. Kinley: when he speaketh a lie
Reader: he speaketh of his own
Dr. Kinley: he speaketh of his own
Reader: for he is a liar
Dr. Kinley: for he is a liar
Reader: and the Father of it
Dr. Kinley: and the father of it. Now you see He was a murderer from the beginning? Do you ever hear about Cain slaying Abel? Why did he do that for? Jealousy. Dr. Harris talked about the devil getting cast out of heaven. Why'd he get cast out for? You get the point? Look at second Thessalonians, the second chapter and just start reading with the first verse. Now you can see what the trouble is.
Reader: Now we beseech you brethren
Dr. Kinley: Now we, Paul said, now, everybody standing around talking about the coming of the Messiah, He's gonna jump out of the clouds some day and all that kinda thing. He's coming back. Now wait a minute. And, and, and said one time when I went to Springfield, they had a guest speaker there. Oh, he was so... Oh, mercy. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) His gestures, his facial expressions, they were just so. Boy, were so graceful, his poise and all that kinda thing. He said that Jesus went away to prepare a mansion for us and He would be back and personally escort us to those mansions in the sky that He has prepared for us. And he was just so proper. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's right. And the ____ etiquette and one of the... Didn't even say anything, it's impossible for a man to be that stupid. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) Yes, indeed. Well he said that's what Jesus said. He said He's going to prepare a place for us and if I go I'll come again and receive you unto myself that where I am, there you will be also. And he was just.., he wanted to make sure that he got into his apartment, an escort. Now
Page 5
21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
brothers let me tell you something. Now these things that.., really, if you'll look into I 'em while we're laughing about that. Now the Papacy has said so many things, said so many things, that, that are more stupider than that. And how people with any degree of intelligence can believe it, just to tell you the truth, they just don't believe. And it's hard to think that a man could set up and tell a, a lie like that. Now look... And let me show you this: how in the world could the Roman Catholics call Jesus the Mother of God?
Student: Mary
Dr. Kinley: I mean Mary, the Mother of God. How could they call Mary the Mother of God? And then they had the power over the treasure of indulgences and write it in this book, print it in this book. It's in here, they said a, now listen, now actually where is purgatory? Said, it's between heaven and hell. Listen, they said that, I didn't. We got it printed right there in that book. And how could you explain to me, if they are gonna trace it clear on back to Peter, their church, how that they could let Mary the M.., so they say the Mother of God, lay out there in the sod until 1950, before they put, Pope Pius the 12th put her in heaven whole soul and body. Now there isn't anybody in here stupid enough to believe that. Now, now, if you just stop and look into it, now that's too stupid. And then it takes a, listen, it takes a whole lot a resistance against God for a man to even have the guts, the nerve, nobody but the devil himself wouldn't have that kinda nerve. And they say they have plenitude of power to promote angels or demote 'em. And Pope, the same Pope that put Mary in heaven whole soul and body, listen... Romans 14:17 says the Kingdom of God is not meats and drinks. Flesh and blood doth not enter the heavens and, and, and, and, and then the man just get up and said that he put Mary the Mother of God.., after leaving her lay in that 1970. He put everybody else in, before he got around to Mary. Could you, could you imagine a disgraceful lie like that? Now couldn't nobody else but the Devil tell a lie like that. Now Pope, Pope Pius the 12th promoted the Archangel, Gabriel. We got these things documented. If I didn't, I'd been in jail folks. Pope Pius that said that, Pope John the 23rd demoted him. Now you oughta come down here with your mouth all shot out, because I tell you Yahshua the Messiah is the Savior of the world, and don't no man go unto the Father but by Him. And these pictures in this book, we tell you where they come from. Here he is. Look, look. Here somebody take this book and just... Here you, you've been a Roman Catholic. You oughta pass this around. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Take this thing back here and show 'em how the pope is setting up here. Show it to anybody new back there that's never seen it before. I'll be done in a few minutes.
Now I'm fixing to leave town, folks. You get a ____ of me pretty soon. You see it? Now look at it. You see where they said hell was, you see where they said purgatory was, you see where they said heaven was. Now that come out of a Catholic magazine, I didn't print it. And Dr. Gross took it and put the picture in there, now I got to be abused about it. Want you to see where that Pope is setting too. I want you to see where they said hell was. Now give me my pointer. Give me this pointer.
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Look at Matthew 24:14. I'll be back to Thessalonians. I'm gonna, I'll tell you why the devil got cast out of heaven. Alright. Matthew 24:15. Look at it.
Reader: When ye therefore shall see the abomination
Dr. Kinley: Now when you therefore shall see, course now if you don't see it. If you're so blind you don't see it. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) When you therefore shall see...
Reader: the abomination
Dr. Kinley: the abomination of desolation
Reader: spoken of by Daniel the prophet
Dr. Kinley: spoken of by Daniel the prophet
Reader: stand in the Holy Place
Dr. Kinley: Now look, you looked at the book. Here he is setting, setting in the Holy Place, letting the Pope setting in heaven here. Jesus said, stand in the Holy Place, he didn't say set there. And there he is setting in the Holy Place. Let the folks in the back there, show 'em a picture of it, in heaven. He has plenitude of power. And Yahshua the Messiah just said, no man goeth unto the Father but by Me. You get it now? And He said stand in the Holy Place. Now you can see, just look at the pattern. All you have to do is just look at the pattern. I want a picture where I, I want it way up where everybody can see it. Now here's the golden candle stick. Would you set on that? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) There's some fire on that. (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) This is the Holy Place. Then when the Messiah, that's why He.., that's why Messiah said stand, He didn't say set there. Now would you sit on the golden candlestick?
Student Body: No
Dr. Kinley: Would you sit down on the table of shewbread?
Student Body: No
Dr. Kinley: Would you sit down on the altar of incense with fire, coals of fire, and let 'em burn you?
Student Body: No
Dr. Kinley: Would you, do you see anyplace there to sit down at? Answer me.
Student Body: No
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Dr. Kinley: Now in the Hebrews, you have this explained, where He, the Messiah's entered on through the vail. See this door here's a vail. This second vail is into the Most Holy Place. This is the Holy Place and this is that. Now what the most theologians do? They coming to drawing something around... Why don't you go on back and get the pattern?
Student Body: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't know about it, doc. Hey, if they don't know...
Dr. Kinley: Why don't they do that? Now they build Vatican City. Right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: Every time you turn around somebody's building, all botched up building a little of this over here and a little of that over there, and a little of this over there. Yahshua the Messiah said, 16th chapter of Matthew, 'upon this rock I'll build My congregation or assembly or church and the very gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' Did He say that? If you don't think that's in the Book, I will read. I'm showing you how I get myself in all kinds of trouble and why they wanna kill me. I quoted him. ____ ____ got it, I didn't say it quick enough, and look it here. Messiah said, upon this Rock, He didn't say upon that Rock either. He said upon this Rock, I'll build My church and the very gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
Now listen. You listening at me? It took 120 years to build the last thing ____ ____, 120 years, the same time that it took Noah to build this ark. Now are you listening? You sure you're listening? And He said, the very gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And you recall I told you that they had killed millions, six million Jews here in Germany. They had a option of going into the Roman Catholic Church, confiscating their property and giving it over or else go to the gas chamber. Yes, its history. Listen, I can go bring the books down here. Don't argue with me, start no stuff at all with me.
Now they killed up all them people. And you ask 'em what did they do it for? They say in defense of the church. Messiah said, 'upon this Rock I'll build my Church and the very gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' Then you explain to me then, how King Victor Hugo Emmanuel in 1870, the First Vatican Council that they had, King Victor Emmanuel sent troops in there, throwed the thing out, put it back under the Italian government, it stayed there 59 years. Would you say that that was the very gates of Hell prevailing against it? Mussolini in 1929 come along and put the Vatican City back. ____ ____ ____ Say, can't you see nothing? Are you so stupid, that you can't see nothing? Call Rome the Eternal City. Now anybody can see that they was.., that's just not so. Can you see the Italian army prevail against the Vatican, at the First Vatican Council, 1870? How then could the Italian Army go in there and subdue it, take that Eternal City, so they say, and put it back under the Italian government. Would you call that prevailing against the Church? And they say that they're the Church. Do you understand what I was talking about
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when I showed you this picture here? Where he's sitting here, saying.., listen, they say purgatory is between heaven and hell. Well now here you got the Outer Court, you see it here? Then you got the Most.., you got the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. Now where is purgatory?
Now I'll tell you what John said about it. While the people was around on the outside of this tabernacle, you can see it better here, while they was around on the outside. There are 12 tribes, three tribes on each side. They were praying, the High Priest was in here burning incense, and they were praying. And this incense represented the Holy Spirit. Now listen folks, the Holy Spirit repre... that represented. Now what we did here on this chart because they don't have no sources of light here, brought it over here, took this and brought it over here, took this and brought it over here and we showed you that He was our Intercessor and He is the Apostle and high Priest of our profession. He's the Light of the world. He's that Bread that came down from Heaven. In other words, we compared one vessel with the other. That's the Pattern that come from God. Now if that's the pattern that come from God and He set it up Himself, I didn't do it, but when I come along and show you what they set up and how they fixed up things, then they wanna kill me for it. Wanna put me to death for it. Freddy, put 666 on that board, both ways, all three ways.
Then I'm gonna have you to read. I, I'll be done in a minute. I'll be done in a minute cause I do wanna let you out because you all supposed to go to a fair, those that would want to go. Now look folks. Now why did the devil get cast out of Heaven? Now if a man will say that he has authority to put angels into Heaven or demote angels or to put people on earth in Heaven, indul.., indulgence. If you say that he's occupying the seat of Peter. You don't see no seat of Peter in here, you have to out of here if you want to sit down, for the Messiah said, 'stand in the Holy Place.' Now Messiah, so states the Hebrews, said He's entered on through the vail and sit down at the right hand of the Father. Now this throne here, this cherubims of Glory overshadowing the Mercy Seat. And now you see the angels and authorities and all being subject unto Him. Now here's what the Pope has done. He's exalting himself above all that is worshipped, all that is called God, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you see now what I'm talking about? Now what else do they do? Look around here. Messiah come to fulfill the carnal ordinances that was under the dispensation of the law: such as the paschal lamb, the first tabernacle stood only in meats and drinks and divers washings. Now look folks, look right up here at me. 430 years before the giving of the Law, He made Abraham a promise. Abraham believed God and his con.., and, and, and his belief in God, that God would do what He said was accounted unto Abraham for righteousness. Now when the Messiah come and fulfilled the law that stood only in meats and drinks, carnal ordinances, and then they were nailed to the cross. And now we're worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. We're not eating no Lord's Suppers, not washing nobody's feet, not punching nobody in the creek, not having no Pentecost, not having no Passover, not doing anything of any of that. Well the question is, why don't you do it? Why don't you do it? Now He said it was given
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to the Jew only. Said He fulfilled and moved it out of the way because it's contrary to Him, so that you can set right on your seat right where you are and believe God that He'll create a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, just like Abraham believed God. And you don't have to wash nobody's feet. That's all the Protestants and the Catholics have got: a form of God but denying the power...
BREAK IN TAPE
Dr. Kinley: ... they have ____ ____. Now here's some idiot standing up here with a little wafer and a little bit of ____ Black with grape juice. Then telling you he's changing it over into the body of Christ; in other words, he's creating Christ. And you are that stupid. Now you see why they wanna kill me? Say, 'the Holy Father's right, he's authorized and endorsed by God, but you ain't.' That's what they say about me. Now in the 13th chapter of Revelation, the 18th verse, you get this. Here's wisdom, let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast, for it's the number of a man. Listen, it says that's a number of a man. Well now if it ain't the Pope, then you get up here and tell me who it is. They said it belonged on Nero. I agree with you, that was pagan Rome. And then you read there in Revelation that pagan just passed it right on over to papal, giving him ____ his authority and his great power. And you read the 21 st chapter of Revelation about the beast and the false prophet. The man without the Holy Spirit is just like a natural brute beast, no different. The man ain't got the Holy Spirit and that's why he's called a brute beast. And the mark of the beast for it's a number of a man. You see what I'm talking about? They wanna chop my head off so bad. And here you set up at home, 'I don't think I'll go down there tonight.' It don't make you no difference how I get along down here. I'm trying to tell you the truth to save your soul. I'm exposed to being murdered almost anytime, even somebody liable to just jump up in the audience back there and shoot me. You wouldn't have no, even no witnesses in court nor nothing else. You don't care if I get killed and here I am, I don't have no better sense to come walking right down here in front and say the very things I'm saying to you now, to try to save your soul. Then you get all hot and heated up at me.
Here is wisdom, let him that has know.., understanding, count the number of the beast for it's the number of a man. They said it belonged on Nero Caesar. Now if you take the numerical for it: N stands for 50, E has no value, R has 200, 0 stands for six. N 50, now behave yourself, C, Doc, stands for 100, A has no value, E has no value, S stands for 60, A has no value, R 200. And you add 'em up. Now this is Nero Caesar, 666. And we can bring the Catholic Bible down here and show it to you. They did say that it belonged on Nero. And in your Bible it says that the dragon gave the beast, this beast, initial power and great authority. Now here Revelation 13:18, says, let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man and his number is six hundred, three score and six, or the same 666.
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Now the Pope claims to be the Vicar of the Son of God. Now that's their own doctrine. That's not mine. Vicarious (Vicarius?) Filii Dei: that's latin, translated it means the Vicar of the Son of God. Now if you take it from that language: V stands for 5. Every kid knows that. I stands for 100 too, I and I equals 1, C stands for 100, A has no value, R has no value, I equals one. V stands for 5, and U, S has not value, and Vicarious and Filii: F has no value, I equals 1, L stands for 50, I equals 1 and I equals... in Filii. Then Dei: D stands for 500, E has no value, I equals 1. There's your 666. Same here on Nero and here's the Pope. Now if you go on back and trace it down, cast out of heaven, come right on down to the earth. And God put that mark on Cain. And Cain said, his great burden was greater than he could bare. He said anybody that seen him, would wanna put him to death. And God said any man that kills Cain He would punish him seven times. And now here he comes right on down, Cain slew Abel. What'd he slay him for? He's jealous because the Lord accepted his sacrifice. And now.., are you with me? I want you to see the jealousy. I want you to see the rage. Now Satan in Heaven, God made him as Dr. Harris said, as he was and he was cast out of Heaven because he lifted himself up.
Now let me take this number, S A T U R N. Saturn. You know the planet Saturn out there in the sky. Stars are symbolical to angels. If you look along that vail up there you will see that there are stars are symbolical to angels. And Saturn is surrounded with three rings. Then if you pick up this crown here in this book. (DR. KINLEY SEEMS TO BE TAKING THE BOOK AND FLIPPING THROUGH SOME PAGES OF IT WITH SOMEONE IN THE AUDIENCE) Now they don't want you to read this book. You'll see here setting in this book, you'll see that the pope has a crown, a triple crown. One ring, Vicarious. The second ring, filii. Third ring, Dei. Vicarious Filii Dei. Just like that planet is surrounded by those three rings. Here you are believing all that stuff meaning this. They tell you that they're the true Church. You're just brain washed and just like this planet is circumscribed. That planet, there's a ring around that planet. You're hemmed in there. Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, the confusion of all the earth. Judaism, the Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. And you get all kinds of folks, modern philosophical psychologists come in talking about the science of mind. Yes I got the ____ ____. Science of mind. What do you mean science of mind? Why don't you go on back and get the pattern. You don't have no... A carnal mind, what's the difference between a carnal mind and a spiritual mind? And people out there talking about how to teach you how to be successful out there in the world and how to get ahead in the world. Brother.., back there.., I know his name too. Ronald Griggs, brought a "Time" magazine and there's around 66 multimillionaires and about two billionaires in the book. They got more money than the United States of America ____ ____, and their names and all is in there.
SIDE 2
Dr. Kinley: Now you don't get in the class unless you're worth at least 150 million before they even put you in the book. Ain't that right, Brother Griggs?
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Dr. Kinley: Yes that's right.
Student: 150 million.
Dr. Kinley: Now here come along somebody teach me how to be successful in the world. Now here's the Messiah. And now what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul. Somebody goes out there and builds some little hut out there on a hill, cost a couple a million dollars. He's showing progress. They build up Saint Peters here, just a... Well look here, look what the devil done down here. What was the Children of Israel in bondage to? In bondage to Pharaoh building up his treasure houses. Ain't that right?
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: And the same old thing comes all the way down through there. Now somebody's trying to teach you how to be successful in this world. Call it any thing (anything?) you wanna call it. They're is a ____. What you wanna live in the world to come. And Dr. Harris so well said, God put this Garden of Eden out there. Gave that man something to eat. In the world to come you won't have to be worried about potatoes and beans and ____, anymore so than you were at the start of that. You won't have to be taught how to be successful in it. Now do you understand what I'm am talking about Freddie?
Fred Allen, Jr.: Yes
Dr. Kinley: Now I'm fixing to up to the country. And this kinda preaching won't do. This kinda book, there ain't nobody gonna ____ it. Everybody print ____ get yourself in trouble. And if they catch me, that's the reason why I tell you.
Now I'm fixing to leave the 16th, that's next Thursday. Now would you all mind coming down here to school? Come on down here and learn something about what it's all about. The time is short. The time is short. Now I'll tell you more about these things Wednesday, but I just wanted to point these things out here to you and show you how Roman Cathol.., I thought of ___ ___ ___ say, I been saying Roman Catholicism is wrong. I just say Protestantism is wrong. I say Judaism is wrong. And you don't wanna go along with it.
Now look folks, you tell me... Now God did this as Dr. Harris said. He put it down this way. Now look at how... You set up here boy. Can you tell me how you can improve on something God did? God made a man. Can you tell me how you can improve on it? Go sit down there. (DR. KINLEY SEEMED TO HAVE USED SOMEONE IN THE AUDIENCE AS AN ILLUSTRATION) (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) That's the pattern, that's what we go by, not the lying ____ up here calling somebody's imagination. I told you God gave me a vision and a revelation. I didn't brag and boast and say I went to school and learned it. And if I had said that I'd a been a liar. You know why I couldn't learn this in school? Cause they don't teach it in there. But this will bring you together children, and let me tell you
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this. Believe it or not it will make you happy.
Student Body: Right.
Dr. Kinley: I mean genuine happy. (DR. KINLEY WHISPERS) Now this is what I'm talking about, happiness, it'll make you love one another. Love that even surpasses an understanding. You just don't have no words to explain how, how it can be, cause people get love and lust all mixed up.
Student Body: Yes.
Dr. Kinley: They think that a man standing around and lusting after a woman. They call that, that's what they call love. And Jesus said, a man that looketh upon a woman to lust after in his heart, said, he's an adulterer already. He ain't even put his hand on her, ain't even got near her. That's the reason why I tell you the whole thing goes on up stairs. This is what determines whether you, what.., who you are or not. It's the conscience of your heart and your mind. Now the Holy Spirit wrote these things in there, just like it's wrote them on the table of stone.
And that's, now here's one other thing I wanna let you know too. Henry C. Kinley is not the teacher. Moses was not the teacher. Jeremiah was not the teacher. Paul was not the teacher. That stuff that Paul taught he had to put it down. 'Well then who is the teacher?' It says when the Comforter comes He will ____ ____ and show it unto you. And listen, said, and He would teach you, not the Church, not ____, but the Comforter which is Holy Ghost said He will teach you. Now that's who's teacher around here. Then when you get hot and sore about something the teacher said, remember you're not jumping on me, you're on the rocks. And listen, you're gonna see you later about it. You won't escape. Nobody gonna get by with nothing.
And there ain't nobody gonna ease in the city either, as Dr. Harris told you ____, whoremongers and adulterers. People come around here saying, 'I don't mean what I said, they're just explaining it spiritually,' and all like that. And they just go and get anybody they wanna get. And they say, 'that's what Doc's teaching.' I never told none of you folks nothing like that. Why do you wanna set up and tell a bare faced lie on me like that. I never told you that Dennis. No indeed. I will tell you this. There is nothing compulsory about you being under bondage to the devil. Now that man you got or that woman you got is incensed by the devil, there ain't nothing you can do up there, you can't convert the Devil. Paul said, the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband and.., or the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife. And another thing about the whole situation. We're not serving Peter, we're not serving Michael, we're not serving Gabriel, we're serving God. So then when it's all said and done, the service is to God and it was God through these vessels and through these bodies, and everyone of you, I don't care where you come from and where you think you're going to, everyone of you live, move and have your being in God. Now it's good to recognize that. And we are obligated to give glory, that's what He made us for.
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Now I wanna quote this. I had you to turn over there to it. Now Paul said there, while the people are looking for Him to come on down here. He's saying this... Would you mind starting it off there?
Reader: Now we beseech you brethren.
Dr. Kinley: Now we beseech you. Now we are begging you brethren.
Reader: by the coming of our Savior
Dr. Kinley: by the coming of our Savior
Reader: Yahshua the Messiah
Dr. Kinley: Yahshua the Messiah
Reader: and by our gathering together unto Him
Dr. Kinley: and by our gathering together
Reader: That ye be not soon shaken in mind
Dr. Kinley: That you don't be shook up about all them ____ lies, as Dr. Harris said. ____. You see the point? Alright.
Reader: or be troubled
Dr. Kinley: or be troubled
Reader: neither by Spirit
Dr. Kinley: neither by Spirit
Reader: nor by word
Dr. Kinley: Now if you don't understand the word
Reader: nor by letter
Dr. Kinley: Now if you don't understand the epistle to the Ephesians, you don't understand the epistle to the Corinthians, if you don't understand the epistle to the Galatians, don't get shook up. Alright, read on.
Reader: As that the day of the Messiah is at hand.
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Dr. Kinley: For the day of the Messiah is at hand. Now somebody said, 'go on out there and do like you wanna did, Dr. Kinley said the world is coming to an end.'
Student: (LAUGHS) Oh man, that's what they said, I heard it.
Dr. Kinley: Why now am I justified in saying what He said?
Student: Yes you are cause I heard it.
Dr. Kinley: Second Peter 3 and 8 said that He's gonna burn it up. The scientists talking about the year 2028. 'What the difference it's gonna be?' I say no. Alright. For that day is at hand.
Reader: Let no man deceive you
Dr. Kinley: Now don't let nobody fool you.
Reader: by any means
Dr. Kinley: Now I don't care what he done or how he goes about it, I ain't ____.
Reader: for that day shall not come
Dr. Kinley: for that day shall not come
Reader: except there come a falling away first
Dr. Kinley: except there come a falling away
Reader: and that man of sin
Dr. Kinley: And that same old Devil that I just got through telling you about. Vicarious (Vicarius?) Filii Dei, that same old Devil sitting over yonder in the Vatican, be revealed. The Son of Perdition, just like Judas was revealed and you went right along with him. He claims to be occupying the throne and the chair of Peter. Said, 'Peter, the Church is built upon Peter, Peter means the Rock.' Now when you read the 21st chapter of Revelation, said that there was 12 foundations, and the names of, and the names of the Apostles was in this foundation. And Paul said there in the 10th chapter of first Corinthians that Rock that followed them, the Israelites back there, said that was Yahshua the Messiah. Ain't that what he said there? Is that what he said?
Student Body: Right.
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Dr. Kinley: And Dr. Harris quoted that we're builded upon the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets, and Yahshua the Messiah Himself, being the chief corner stone (cornerstone?) bringing all the buildings fitly framed together into a holy tabernacle in the Lord for a habitation of God through the spirit. So you don't let nobody come along ____ ____. That Mystery of Iniquity has got to come all the way through. It's just got to come all the way through. And now down in these days, it's got to be revealed. That's what my job is, is to tell you what it really amounts to for which your mind being poisoned, you been brain washed and circumscribed, and you were saying that that's the only right Church and that they are the only ones that have a visual head and they tell you all kinds of lies. Protestantism out there washing feet. Don't wanna wash nobody's white feet, wash some negro. Can't even touch... Why don't you wash your own feet too. There was 12 apostles, 12 men. So the women were men. And so don't you wash.., don't you wash none of the.., I don't want you to feel around (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) Hear what I'm talking about? But don't you let nobody deceive you by any means for that day will not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed. This is a Son of Perdition, that's what Judas was. He was a Son of Perdition and that's what that is over there, a Son of Perdition. Now the Pope plans, so he says, to go and to take.., move the Vatican to Jerusalem and set up there in there. Never happened. The devil's been cast out of heaven and he's not going back in, he's going on to the Lake, don't you let no man fool you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a failing away first, that man of sin, the Son of Perdition be revealed.
Now I'm telling you about him. You don't wanna believe, go ahead to hell, it's all right with me, my job is telling you about it.
Student Body: Alright.
Dr. Kinley: And Protestantism out here, all these different cults and creeds and what not. The Messiah said there was many of 'em gonna come in my name saying that they were Him. Now listen, this school never would have been in the first place if the other guy out there had taught the truth.
Student Body: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: A present distinction, even Nixon said.., when John F. Kennedy was made President. John F. Kennedy was not the actual correct President. Nixon won the election but he failed to demand a recount, and they said he won it by popular... The devil setting up yonder in Congress. Every last one of them up there, except Pierre Salinger, was Roman Catholic telling LBJ what to do. And these people got their guns on their shoulders, going on down yonder in Vietnam to fight because the Roman Catholics, because of the Roman Catholic government down here. I'd tell LBJ to go to hell before you can open your mouth. Don't blame the young folks for not going there. And all of them that come to me, I'll sign your papers, and they can put me in jail for being a conscientious objector, according to what I've done here and what I've.., what I've been want.., put me in
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MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
jail a long time ago. They can put me in jail for it, it don't make me no difference. Yeah, you call yourself 18 years old, you can't go to the polls and vote. You can't go out there and get a job unless Mama say so and Papa. You can't stop school unless Mama and Papa say so. You can't hold no job. Now they're gonna take you out of the cradle and send you to Vietnam with a gun on your shoulder, no sir, to die for the Roman Catholic Church. You see why I don't get no, 'oh I'm sorry,' folks, time is ____... But this thing, these things, but they will happen and will convene, will happen on everybody ____ ____ on everybody.
Now here's why he won't ____.., I said, we won't have no question, no ____ ____ ____, that day shall not come except for a falling away, and that man of sin, the Son of Perdition be revealed, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not that when I was with you I told you these things. Now if I'm not gonna talk about them things, ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ then you're just might as well not have 'em. ____ ____ ____ ____ putting it out there, if I can't tell the people what's right and what's wrong. Ain't no sense of you coming down here in school, if I couldn't say what's right and what's wrong. Now that's just a lie. God said for me to tell you what's right and what's wrong. Now the Devil ____ up and shot me down for telling you what's right and what's wrong. And here you are setting at home, 'I don't think I'll go tonight.' See what happened to Martin Luther King when he stepped outside that building? Yahshua the Messiah, He didn't walk no more openly among the people either. And when He got ready to go to that cross, He went right back up there in that Sanhedrin Council, said, you generation of vipers, you hypocrites, you serpents, and how are you gonna escape the damnation of hell. Said, 'look here boy, if we're so smart.' And that's what they done. And that's what ____ ____. And every Protestants and Roman Catholic, Buddhist and everybody else is after me for telling you the truth. And you don't respect it no more.., and you're right down to the end of it, 1900, over 1900 years. The first age was 1600 and here you are 300 years over that, and the Messiah said unless this age is cut short, wouldn't be no flesh saved. Now you running around talking about, 'Dr. Kinley said the world is gonna come to an end.' You better wake up and live. Better wake up and live. You better appreciate the opportunity while you have it. And listen thing's gonna happen so quick, there won't be no fixing. He ain't gonna come and sit down or do somewhere for a thousand years and their people coming into the kingdom.
Now what this is here, I'll say this they're ____, they wouldn't receive the truth there. Brain washed, circumscribed, and it's in there, you can't change it to save your life. You can't do it, it don't make no difference ____. Somebody's gonna step up here, 'I take ____ ____.' ____ ____ Now nobody that's been practicing any carnal ordinance. Now a carnal ordinance is water baptism, a carnal ordinance is eating Lord's Suppers like you do in a church. It never was done that way. Now you have been around long enough, you know better than that. And there was the Jew, they did that and ____ ____ ____ the congregation of assembly. And you can't tell me that they don't do that in the Baptist Church. And you can't tell me that they don't do that in the Methodist Church. But it's wrong fellow. They turn right
Page 17
21) MAY 5 or 12,1968: MYSTERY OF INIQUITY:
MAN IS IGNORANT OF PURPOSE
(also called: MARK OF THE BEAST; JEALOUSY)
around and said, 'Jesus instituted.' Say, he don't know what he's talking about, said He, He was, He said He was fulfilling, they say He's instituting. It's terrible children. It's terrible.
Now we got 'em setting around here, they've been healed of all kinds of diseases and just everything, even actually been resurrected from the D E A D. And you know I can't resurrect nobody. Right? And you know your Father, your own, this is your father and that's his wife setting right there. That's your Mother, ain't that right? And ain't this your doctor sitting here? And Dr. Harris, he won't say that his father had to die and he couldn't live, just walked through, spoke the words, 'Farley, Live.' That's all. Just walked to 'em and spoke the word, 'So and So, live.' ____, got 'em laying back there in Ohio now, said, doctors said they had to die. And I'll reach back before they'll bury you, even if they died today. Then here is Sister Harris. Right there. Did you leave here? And if they tell you to come at once, they was going to die there. Did he die?
Student: Not yet.
Dr. Kinley: It's just as great in this place as it can possibly be. Now we'll will say this, when it comes to bread and meat... If you don't have no bread and meat at home, we try to see to it that you don't get hungry, even the officials down in town know that. When it comes to bread and meat or anything. We've done that. Now if we give you something to eat, give you a place to stay, and God has healed your sick body. Now what more could you want, Williams? You were laying out there in the hospital and the man said... Is that right?
LaSalle Williams: That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Almost everybody I get around to has had something. That's why these people are here.
Student Body. That's right.
Dr. Kinley: Let us go home.
(STUDENT BODY APPLAUDS)
END OF TAPE
Page 18
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