Rehabilitation Research and Training Centers - VCU



Northrop Grumman Information Technology

Moderator: Lucy Miller

May 19, 2010

1:00 p.m. CT

Operator: Good afternoon my name is (Sarah) and I’ll be the conference operator today. At this time, I’d like to welcome everyone to the Veteran’s Benefits Conference Call.

All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker’s remarks, there will be a question-and-answer session.

If you would like to ask a question during this time, simply press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, please press the pound key.

Thank you. Ms. Miller, you may begin your conference.

Lucy Miller: Thank you, (Sarah).

Hello everybody. Good afternoon.

Just a few reminders before we jump in, this is part two of a two-part training series on issues related to serving, providing with the services to veterans with disabilities. Part one was two weeks ago, and that session focused on the rehabilitation services, employment supports, the places where veterans can go to get help with achieving their occupational or career goals.

So today’s call, we’re not going to touch on those subjects at all. Today’s call is focused strictly on benefits that veterans receive primarily from the Veteran’s Administration, or the V.A., although we will touch on a little bit of some things that they can get straight from their branch of the military, the Department of Defense. And we’ll also touch a little bit on the healthcare system through the Veteran’s Administration that veterans have access to.

The call is scheduled for two hours. And typically what I’ll do is we’ll cover a topic, and when it comes to a logical stopping point, I will stop and call for questions so that we can get things answered without having to wait till the very end of the program. So while I’m speaking, if you think of something on the topic that you want to ask, jot it down, and about every half an hour or so I’ll go ahead and call for questions so that we don’t have everybody waiting to the end.

Now, as always, with these calls, you would have gotten a paper. In this case, I think you probably got two papers. You got the big, long paper on providing what the services to veterans with disabilities, and hopefully you’ve read that because the material that we go over today is kind of a Reader’s Digest condensed version. We push you through pretty fast, so if you haven’t read that paper you’re going to struggle a little bit to keep up.

There was also a companion paper that I hope you’ve scanned for today, and that was a wonderful paper developed by our friends at the World Institute on Disability in California on the healthcare options for veterans with disabilities. And there’s a little bit of that in the larger paper, but the WIPA paper goes into it in more detail and gives some advice about how to counsel veterans on healthcare issues, things like that.

You also should have a PowerPoint presentation, we hope, for part two. You should have gotten part one for two weeks ago. Part two is for today, and hopefully that’s either up on your screen and you’re sitting in front of your computer or you’ve printed that out and can follow along.

So that’s about it for the intro. Let’s just jump right on in. And we’ll begin with a reminder that just because a person is a veteran it doesn’t mean that that person has been bumped to the top priority for WIPA services. Remember that in order to qualify for WIPA services, an individual has to be receiving a Social Security benefit based on disability.

Now, they might also be receiving veterans’ benefits or any number of other benefits, certainly military retirement due to disability. But if they aren’t already receiving Social Security due to disability, they’re not eligible for your services.

Now, something else to remember is that just because a person comes to you who’s getting Social Security based on disability and getting a veterans’ benefit, that person isn’t going to be any higher priority than anybody else just based on veteran’s status. Remember that priority in WIPA is really about are you interested in going back to work? Are you planning to reenter the labor market? Are you preparing for work or are you already employed?

So it – really, priority in our world is really about your proximity to the mission of WIPA services, which is promoting work and enhancing self-sufficiency.

So you will get calls from veterans who either had never applied for Social Security or are in that process. And just like all callers who might be in the process of getting – of working through that application, all you can really provide is information and referral. They have to already be on benefits to actually qualify for services from you.

Well, the next slide talks about verifying, and this is interesting in the V.A. program. You all know that if you’re going to offer services that are individualized, meaning more than just sort of generic information about how a particular benefit might be affected by work, that we just beat it into you that you need to verify, verify, verify. And in the Social Security system, that’s not a problem because you have access to benefits planning queries or BPQIs. You can even get TPQIs, third party queries from Social Security.

However, on the veteran’s side, I’m very sorry to say, there is no such report that a CWIC can readily access to verify exactly what a veteran is getting from the V.A. or from the military. Now, I’m going to give you some tips on how to verify, but the exact route you take is going to depend on the actual individual and what information that person might have and what connection that person might have to programs within the V.A. that can help you verify.

First of all, the main types of cash payments that you get from the V.A., one of them you get because you have a service-related disability. That’s V.A. disability compensation. Believe me those ladies and gentlemen know when they are getting a benefit based on a service connected disability, because when they go through the whole disability determination process for the V.A. that is a huge thing that has to be proven. So, and that process is pretty onerous. Lengthy indeed, probably more lengthy than a Social Security disability determination.

So in most cases, the veteran sitting across the table from you or on the phone call is going to know, yes, I have a service connected disability. It’s V.A. compensation as opposed to the pension program. Having said that, you and I both know there are going to be people who really don’t know. They might have intellectual impairment, a severe and chronic mental illness, memory impairment, some head injury, all sorts of reasons why that person would not be clear about exactly what they’re getting.

The best strategy to take when that happens is to ask if the individual has any written correspondence, anything that you can look at. A letter, a confirmation letter, (the award) letter. Any correspondence from the V.A. that might indicate exactly what type of benefits a person receives.

If that doesn’t work, the last thing I know to do would be to ask if the individual has an involvement with the local V.A. hospital, a V.A. medical center, one of the vet service centers that we talked about two weeks ago, anybody in that veteran system, even if – with that rep perhaps that work for your State Department for Employment Services. Anybody who’s in that system might have a way to access that information. Certainly, social workers at the hospital, case managers at the V.A. hospitals are going to have a way to look that up and verify for you.

I wish I had the silver bullet on this issue. I wish that there was an equivalent of the TPQI or BPQI in the V.A. system. There’s just isn’t. It’s not set up to the type of benefits counseling that we get. So you are going to have to go through a little bit more in some cases to verify what is this person getting. And, of course, you still have to verify the Social Security stuff using the TPQI or the BPQI, and certainly any other benefits the individual may be engaged in or be receiving food stamps or had having subsidy, whatever it might be and you want to verify any of those benefits just as we would do with any beneficiary.

Let’s take a look at the most common types of cash benefits that are available to veterans with disabilities, and you’re going to see the same things pop up over and over again.

First, although it is actually the least common one on this slide, is military retirement based on disability. And this is not a benefit provided by the V.A. – the Veterans Administration. This is a benefit provided by the branch of the Armed Forces that the individual was in the Department of Defense, and it really is just regular old retirement for years of service, but you’re retiring because of disability.

And there are completely different rules about how the DoD – Department of Defense benefits the military retirement benefits are treated and how they all work to the V.A. benefit. And again, you need to ask are you getting retirement based on disability or are you getting a V.A. benefit.

Now, under the Veterans Administration, just to make it complicated, there are two different types of cash benefits available. First is V.A. disability compensation and we’ll go through the requirements for all of this but it is generally provided to people who had a service connected disability. And the second one is V.A. disability pension and that is a program provided to eligible individuals who have disabilities that are not related to their military service.

Now, you know that on top of those military benefits, you have the usual benefits provided by Social Security. You’ve got Title II disability benefits and the overwhelming majority of the veterans you’ll serve are not going to be getting CDB – Childhood Disability Benefits or Disabled Widows or Widower. They’re going to be getting the basic Social Security disability insurance.

Having said that, all of you know to check and ask and it will indicate which flavor of the Title II disability benefits the person gets on that BPQI. And occasionally, particularly people that have V.A. disability pension, you may also see some Supplemental Security Income or SSI, not that uncommon.

And particularly, I’m sorry to say, in the population of veterans who experience homelessness, and as we mentioned on the call two weeks ago, unfortunately in the homeless population, veterans are disproportionately represented in that world. So some of the individuals that are homeless who are veterans, you will see on SSI, sometimes also on pension, but not always.

Well, those are the main categories. It certainly adds some complication to your standard beneficiary to have the additional benefits available from either the V.A. or the Department of Defense.

Well, on the next slide, just to make things even more complicated, the V.A. and the military maintain their own separate health care system. Well, if a veteran is getting military retirement, they’re going to be covered like all military retirees by the military health care system and that’s called TRICARE. And, again, most veterans are going to know, are you on retirement, are you getting TRICARE, they’ll have an identification card, you know, they have correspondence, something to show you what they’re receiving. And TRICARE is just a standard health insurance program available to members of the military.

Now, if a veteran’s getting V.A. benefit due to disability, they’re likely to be receiving health care from the V.A., the Veterans Administration health care system and this is a huge system completely separate from the whole TRICARE issue and certainly separate from the private health care system where our beneficiaries may be taking their Medicaid – or Medicare or Medicaid card and purchasing services with that.

The V.A. system is delivered through the V.A. health care facilities, either the hospitals or the V.A. medical centers. You use their facilities when you access the system rather than have like insurance that you go anywhere and pay for.

You all know that if you’re also receiving a Social Security disability benefit that if you’ve (inaudible) your prerequisite waiting period that Medicare can come with that, you’re going to find a whole pile of people out there who get – who are using the V.A. health care system and have Medicare coverage.

And you’re going to see all kinds of configurations there with Medicare with people that maybe have (Part A) by itself, they’ve declined Part B or they’ll have Part A and Part B, and in some cases, they will have decided that they want to purchase the whole deal, maybe they live very far away from a V.A. health care facility and it’s just didn’t – they’ve decided that Medicare is a better route for meeting their health care needs, and any combination thereof. So things get really complicated.

Remember, if the individuals getting SSI, there’s going to be Medicaid, but there are lots of ways to get a Medicaid card. You’re going to run into veterans sometimes that are going to be members of your state’s Medicaid waiver program. You might have a member of the Military or a veteran whose children are getting SHIP, that’s the State Health Insurance Program, which is a form of Medicaid which is affected by working. It’ll be something that you’d need to know.

So as with all of our beneficiaries, when you’re doing that intake or gathering information, you’d need to be asking about all the usual Medicaid programs if your state has a buy-end or a medically (inaudible) program, you’d want to be asking about that too, because there’s no rule that says that a veteran can’t have multiple forms of medical insurance simultaneously and some of the ladies and gentlemen that you serve will have more than one, certainly even maybe more than two. So you can have lots of complication there that you need to get to the bottom of.

In the next slide, let’s take a look at some health care considerations for veterans. Because they have access to multiple forms of health insurance, the different forms of health insurance interact and can cause some problems. There’s also some real opportunities for veterans.

Don’t assume that the veterans who call you know what their options are with regard to health care. A lot of the veterans will come out there pretty familiar with the V.A. system, because they would have come to that system when they were first disabled. But they’re not going to be very familiar with Medicare or Medicaid. Certainly not the various options your state may offer with regard to Medicaid.

Some states certainly offer lots and lots of choices and different programs, and don’t assume that veterans know. Don’t assume that a veteran who comes to you enrolled in a V.A. health care system that all is well. That their health care needs are being met. They may be, but we need to ask because that assumption can be completely wrong. If they – a veteran lives in a very remote rural area, may not have good transportation that individual may have no way to access the health care facilities that are part of the V.A. health care system. You’re kind of have to go to their shops in order to get the service.

So those individuals who may certainly want to avail themselves of everything they can through Medicare and may even need to and be qualified for one of your Medicaid programs. So, again, treat the veterans like they are any other beneficiary with regard to checking. Do you get this? Do you get this? Do you get this? Are your health care needs getting met? Are you able to afford your prescriptions? Are you able to get to your doctor’s appointment taken care of? Do you need us to explore some additional options for you or are things OK? Don’t assume. Be sure to ask those questions.

Don’t forget too that for individuals who participate in Medicare, if they’re paying for those premiums for Part B and Part D, the Medicare Savings Program, you know, the QMB, the SLMB and the Part D Low Income Subsidy are still out there. Certainly, many veterans have income that’s high enough to preclude those. They wouldn’t be eligible, but not all. Not all.

Again, remember, homelessness and veteran status go hand in hand. A lot of those gentlemen and ladies are going to have SSIs. They’re going to be a very low income. They might need help paying for those premiums. In this day and age of high unemployment, people are not having the resources that we might expect them otherwise to have.

So don’t assume. Ask. Are you having trouble paying this? Let’s take a look at your income. Do we think you can qualify for at least SLMB which would pay for at least that Medicare Part B premium and certainly looking into eligibility for the Part D low income subsidy? Even if it’s not 100 percent, maybe you can get a little bit of assistance there and assistance may be better than none.

All right. Let’s take a really quick overview of the V.A. health care system because it’s pretty darn complicated.

Now, not every veteran will qualify for the V.A. health care system. Most of them would but not everyone. And within the V.A. health care system, there is this rather complicated system of priority. Just because they don’t have enough resources to serve everyone, everyone can’t be first. They have to kind of do that triage and prioritize which people – if there’s a line at the door, which people are we going to take first, who is going to have first access.

Now, most of our clients who would be receiving a V.A. benefit based on disability are going to be considered fairly high priority, but you’ll never know. You do have to check and ask. Now, these priorities are clearly delineated in your manual and in the paper that you received, and I believe the paper from with also talks about these. It’s not your job to decide, you know, whose priority and who isn’t.

What you need to know is that there is a priority system and that level of triage is performed within the V.A. health care system. So, when you show up at the door of the V.A. hospital or one of the health care centers or clinics that that triage and you’re just going to go on to see, you know, where is this particular veteran.

And your eligibility is going to depend on a variety of factors. Number one is the nature of your discharge. It’s going to have to do with your adjudicated disabilities, what the V.A. says your disability is and then your ratings, which means the percentage level of disability that they have assigned to that veteran, their income level, and available V.A. resources.

So, when you enroll in the system, you’re assigned a priority group and then the V.A. uses that group to decide, you know, how fast you can get served, where you get served, what you get served, all of that stuff. Which is another reason why you’ve got a veteran who might be of somewhat lower priority, you’d want to make sure that you’re covering all the bases by checking Medicare and Medicaid options.

OK. On the next slide, you’ve got a real 30,000-foot view here. There is a lot available to a veteran through the V.A. health care system. As a matter of fact, the number and variety of services can be a little bit overwhelming. The basic services that a veteran will receive are, you know, your basic doctor’s appointments, preventive care, primary care. There’s inpatient treatment certainly to one of the V.A. hospitals, and outpatient services through their medical centers, clinics and things like that.

So, again, you are required to use the V.A. facilities when you use a V.A. health care system. So depending on where a beneficiary lives, that can be either easy to access or not so easy to access, so you need to be asking things about that.

Much of the service does require a little bit of out-of-pocket expense. It’s a lot like Medicare in that respect. There are going to be copays, some other out-of-pocket expenses, things like that that have to be paid. So, again, when you’re interviewing beneficiaries, you’d be asking about those out-of-pocket expenses. Is that veteran comfortable with those? Are those stretching his or her budget? And those would be indicators that maybe you need to investigate additional options or additional forms of insurance that that individual could fall back on.

Now, I do want to warn you on slide nine here, for individuals who get Medicare and have a benefit from either the Department of Defense or the V.A., there can be some interaction between those two forms of insurance – actually three forms.

If you have an individual who is into V.A. health care program, you can have Medicare, you cannot have Medicare. Nobody at the V.A. health care program is going to ask. They don’t care. It’s not going to create a problem. We want to always make sure that we’re checking both before we would ever tell a veteran to turn down Medicare parts. Because all of you know that if you turn down a part of Medicare like B and then you change your mind later, it’s possible that you could be billed surcharge and extra cost for your premium because you didn’t enroll when you first could.

So, we don’t want to tell anybody, oh, you don’t need to enroll in this Medicare Part B thing just because they got V.A. health care. You want to go through that counseling process, asking questions, checking all the options, what options do we have, how much do they cost, and what services do they render and then trying to get the best deal for the beneficiary that we can. And that – that really is a part of our job where we need to help people make decisions about what is in their best interest health care wise.

Now, the warning there is that second button, if you got a beneficiary sitting in front of you who is on the military retirement from the Department of Defense, go check (come) from the branch of service where the individual was. And that individual is receiving TRICARE. Remember that, it’s the health insurance program that’s available to members of the Military and the retirees.

Individuals who are getting TRICARE are eligible – actually are required to enroll in Medicare in some instances. And, you know, think about it. This is a (clause) shifting issue. This is a way for TRICARE to save some money if you’re already enrolled in Medicare. There’s going to be some back and forth between those health insurance programs. So, be careful. Make sure you know if this a person getting a V.A. benefit or military retirement because if they’re military retirement, they have TRICARE and there you don’t want to be turning down Medicare if you’re a TRICARE beneficiary.

Now, there’s a link right here on this slide that takes you to lots of fact sheets that talk about the interface. There are fact sheets through the military system, the TRICARE system. There are also fact sheets and nice ones on Social Security’s Web site that talk about that. So you want to avail yourself of that information. Certainly print those basic fact sheets out and give those to beneficiaries for whom they would make sense.

Sorry, I should have cut all these phones off of here. OK.

Let’s take a look at – the next slide gets us into – let’s do this one next slide and then I’m going to go ahead and take questions, because this is really the military retirement due to disability is kind of a horse of a different color. So let’s take this one before we start looking at the V.A. benefits.

The advantages of – all right. I’m sorry. Let’s skip forward one too many slides.

Military retirement based on disability, these are benefits that are administered by the Department of Defense, not the V.A. And as I’ve said before, the money comes through the branch of the service. It’s available to folks that have 20 plus years of active service in the military and, of course, the military has a very tight definition of what it means to get active service.

And individuals can retire of quote, “disabled” regardless of that percentage level of disability if they’re found unfit for service by reason of a physical disability. Now, we’re going to talk about that a little bit more in a minute but it is an interesting – I don't know how well do you even describe it. It’s an interesting restriction that military retirement based on disability is not available when an individual might have a psychological or an emotional type of disability as opposed to a quantifiable physical disability. They’re really only going to do this is you have that physical disability that makes you unable to perform your military functions.

If you have less than 20 years of active service, you can be removed from the military by reason of physical disability and that’s not really considered retired. It’s kind of separated. And it’s – I don't think people realize that this can happen that you can actually get – I don’t want to say terminated, but you can kind of put out of the active military if you have a physical disability that makes you unable to perform the functions of your rating, of your job classification in the military.

Now, if you do get this particular type of separation, your benefits can be dispensed to either a monthly check or the lump sum severance payment. And there’s page after page after page of rules that determine how this all works and the different branches of the military handle things differently. So there’s no real way for us to summarize this in any comfortable way.

Suffice it to say, you need to be asking are you receiving this payment that you get from your branch of the military, it’s Department of Defense, it’s not V.A.? Do you know if it’s retirement? Do you know if you were separated? And, again, most of your veterans will know that there will be those individuals who are not going to remember or not going to understand the question, and that you may have to go through some paperwork or talk to some knowledgeable folks within the veteran system to figure that one out.

But there are some advantages to military retirement, some significant advantages. First of all, when you retire based on disabilities and get paid through the Department of Defense, there is never any review of your disability rating. So let’s say that you got retired and you’re 30 or 40 percent disabled. The military system is never going to review it to see if you’ve gotten better or worse.

Now, if you work, the good news is work in this system has no negative impact at all and would never cause your disability rating to go down. They are not – military retirement benefits are not affected by paid employment or self employment in any way whatsoever. So individuals who receive this benefit could do whatever they want. They don’t have to report in any way. They don’t have to worry about any consequences.

Now, remember that when you retire from the military, whether you retire due to disability or just because you’re tried of it, wanted to do something else and you’ve hit your 20 years, you get all of the advantages that all military retirees get. So, you can use the commissaries, the exchanges, the military hospitals, and you do get the TRICARE coverage for yourself and your dependent family members. So there are some definite advantages there.

I think what I’d like to do before we get into the V.A. system, this is a natural break in the material. I’d like to take questions now.

(Sara), if you’re there, if you can get people to queue up, if you have some questions about what we just covered, let’s get those handled before we move on.

Operator: At this time, if you would like to ask a question, please press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. We’ll pause for a moment to compile the Q&A roster.

Your first question comes from the participant who we have not captured their name. If you queue up for question, please state your first and last name.

(Darlene Middleton): (Darlene Middleton).

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Darlene). How are you?

(Darlene Middleton): Hi, Lucy. I’m down at the home thing as the call came in a little bit late. My question is, who is the (payee of last resort) between TRICARE and Medicare? I mean…

Lucy Miller: TRICARE – it’s not that we (payee of last resort). It’s that that you’re required if Medicare is an option for you that TRICARE under certain circumstances requires that you sign up for it. And they can deny coverage for things if you were foolish enough not to sign up for it. OK?

So it’s a requirement if you’re in TRICARE under certain circumstances that you enroll in whatever parts of Medicare are available to you.

(Darlene Middleton): And there’s no battle between who pays what and who gives…?

Lucy Miller: Well, I’m not going to promise that. I’m sure there’s quite a battle about who pays what, but –

(Darlene Middleton): Yes. There is (and I tell you).

Lucy Miller: That happens all the time. And there’s nothing you guys can really do about that. That’s something that, you know, you guys don’t work for Medicare, you don’t work for the TRICARE system, and health insurance companies whether they’re public or private fight over who covers what.

(Darlene Middleton): So we just – what do we tell the beneficiary, to just go and talk to TRICARE and Medicare?

Lucy Miller: They have to work that out with the two insurance companies that work for them, so they’re going to have to call TRICARE and Medicare and there are 800 lines for both of those huge governmental entities that beneficiaries are given to call when there is a problem.

(Darlene Middleton): OK.

Lucy Miller: And don’t get in the middle of those – those things because that will – you could spend your whole day messing with that stuff. That’s just outside of the realm of your responsibilities.

(Darlene Middleton): Thank you.

Operator: Again, if you would like to ask a question, please press star then the number one on your telephone keypad.

You have another question from (Darlene Middleton). Your line is now open.

(Darlene Middleton): It’s me again and I’m reading that if they don’t choose to go into Part B then there can be a penalty. But for Part D, if they don’t choose, they could still come back and choose later without a penalty. Is that correct?

Lucy Miller: That’s correct. But that’s a Medicare issue.

(Darlene Middleton): Yes. OK.

Lucy Miller: And that’s standard Medicare issue and that stuff is all explained in glorious details in your manual. It’s module four, unit two. And that’s about the, you know, when you enroll in Part B, you have to enroll when you’re allowed to – when you’re first allowed to. And if you choose not to take Part B and you have to go back later, they’re going to charge you that – that surcharge, that premium surcharge and that can be pretty ugly.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. But Part D, you don’t have to worry about because…

Lucy Miller: Well, Part D isn’t like that, but remember that with Part D, there’s only certain times that you can enroll and Part B is like that too, and that’s enrolling with a private health insurance provider – Humana or Anthem, you know, any of those folks that are offering drug plans in your area and they involve premiums, copays and deductibles, and you could certainly go to Social Security and look and see if you’re eligible for the low income subsidy which helps you pay the Part B – oh, sorry, Part D premiums and copays.

(Darlene Middleton): Thank you.

Operator: Your next question comes from (Mike Rowe). Your line is now open.

(Mike Rowe): Hey, Lucy.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Mike).

(Mike Rowe): I like to address a question that – what have (Darlene) said …

Lucy Miller: Yes. Yes.

(Mike Rowe): … the who pays first. I’m in a different – I’m a 100 percent service connector as you know, but –

Lucy Miller: Right.

(Mike Rowe): But because I was in the Marine Corps when I got hurt, the Marine Corps retired me as if I served 20 years –

Lucy Miller: Wow.

(Mike Rowe): … even (it’s only two).

Lucy Miller: OK.

(Mike Rowe): And so I get TRICARE and my wife has her Medicare because she’s full retirement age. Medicare pays first and then TRICARE pays second.

Lucy Miller: OK. And I’m sure they have fights between the two of them, don’t they?

(Mike Rowe): We’ve never had a problem.

Lucy Miller: Oh, awesome. That’s good.

(Mike Rowe): (Inaudible), you know, she had TRICARE for years before she became eligible for Medicare, so…

Lucy Miller: Well, that’s – I’m glad to know you all haven’t had a lot of trouble between the two programs. That’s great.

(Mike Rowe): Well, that’s 40 years for us.

Lucy Miller: That’s awesome. Anybody else have any questions or comments.

Operator: Your next question comes from (Bryce Mitchell). Your line is now open.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Bryce).

(Bryce Mitchell): Hello. How are you doing today?

Lucy Miller: Good. What (do you need)?

(Bryce Mitchell): I’m kind of confused about something. You maybe haven’t gone over it yet, but an individual who is unemployable…

Lucy Miller: We haven’t gotten there yet.

(Bryce Mitchell): OK. Maybe…

Lucy Miller: Hang on. Because in this next segment, we’ll go there and it’s ugly.

(Bryce Mitchell): OK.

Lucy Miller: All right. So, hang on and hopefully we’ll explain it so it makes some sense, although the whole concept is not particularly commonsensical. But we’ll get there. So I’m going to hold off on that question, if you don’t mind.

(Bryce Mitchell): That’s just fine. Thank you very much.

Lucy Miller: You're welcome. Anybody else?

Operator: Your next question comes from (C.J. Volker). Your line is now open.

(C.J. Volker): Hey, Lucy.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (C.J.). What’s up?

(C.J. Volker): I’m fine. How are you doing?

Lucy Miller: Very well. Very well. Do you have a question or comment?

(C.J. Volker): Well, I’d like to reiterate the no benefit on any service connected disability benefit. Is that – that is different from the pension and retirement. Is that right?

Lucy Miller: The military retirement based on disability is completely separate from the two types of cash payments available under the V.A. V.A. compensation is for service connected disabilities. V.A. disability pension is for financially eligible people and they have to meet another requirements who do not have a service connected disability.

(C.J. Volker): OK.

Lucy Miller: And, also, all three things there. So they are very confusing.

(C.J. Volker): All right. Thanks.

Lucy Miller: Anyone else?

Operator: Your next question comes from (Julie Johnson). Your line is now open.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Julie).

(Julie Johnson): Hi. I just want to make sure I understand correctly. So work or earnings never affect military if they’re both in the V.A. and the Department of Defense receiving benefits?

Lucy Miller: They – that’s a great question. It is possible. It is possible for people to get payments from both systems to get military retirement based on disability, so their branch of the service and to qualify for a V.A. benefit. It is not – that’s not an old rule. It’s a fairly new rule that allows members of the military to collect from both systems.

You could take a job and if you’re getting benefits from both systems you would know that your military retirement based on disability would never be affected in any way about that job no matter what it was. No matter how much you want. No matter what the job entailed. They don’t care that you’re working. You don’t have to tell them you’re working. Nothing will ever happen to your military retirement because of working, OK?

On the other hand, the disability compensation can be affected – and we’ll cover that in just a minute. It’s odd the way it is affected and we’ll cover that in a minute. But it is possible under certain circumstances that going to work when you get a disability compensation check could actually cause a reduction in your disability rating, but we’ll cover that in a minute.

(Julie Johnson): OK. Thank you.

Operator: Your next question comes from (Ralph Prussier). Your line is now open.

(Ralph Prussier): Yes. My question – my question is what like a veteran like can – can a veteran – can he like – can he like to choose to (have his) Medicare Part like A and Part B, can he choose to like have that stopped?

Lucy Miller: Yes. Well, yes, sometimes. If you get V.A. benefits as opposed to TRICARE, OK, so they’re enrolled in a V.A. health care system…

(Ralph Prussier): OK.

Lucy Miller: And you’ve applied for Social Security disability benefit and then found eligible.

(Ralph Prussier): Yes, ma’am.

Lucy Miller: When you hit your two year eligibility period for Medicare, you know how that goes so Medicare qualifying period, your Part A Medicare is going to start automatically. It’s free and there’s no off switch. There’s no way to decline it. I mean, it doesn’t cost you anything, but it’s going to be there for you. OK?

Part B is optional and a veteran who has access to the V.A. health care system and let’s say you live here in Louisville where I live and you’ve got a wonderful V.A. hospital right now in the road and V.A. clinics all around, and you really don’t need that Medicare Part B.

A lot of veterans will decide they don’t want to pay that $96.40 or the ($101), whatever your premium would be for that and they just decline it.

(Ralph Prussier): OK.

Lucy Miller: And so they use their Part A and they have the V.A. health care system and they decide that’s enough health care for them, they’re OK. Now, you could certainly change your mind and come back into Part B, Medicare Part B later, but you’re going to be subject to those surcharges, the premium surcharge if you change your mind. And remember that’s what 10 percent per year that you could have been receiving Part B but chose not to.

So it’s one of those things people really need to sort of think about. So before they turn down Part B, I can certainly understand why somebody wouldn’t want to pay that premium if for the rest of their lives they were going to be able to access superb health care through the V.A. system and they were fine with that. But we want to make sure people understand, OK, if you turn this down, this is what could happen. OK?

(Ralph Prussier): Yes. OK.

Lucy Miller: Now, remember, if you’re in TRICARE military retirement due to disability, you’re going to be forced to push to enroll in Part B, OK?

(Ralph Prussier): OK.

Lucy Miller: Great question. Anybody else?

Operator: Your next question comes from (Darlene Middleton). Your line is now open.

(Darlene Middleton): Lucy, I’m confused. Because if they go and apply for SS – Social Security, most likely (they’ll probably will) get SSDI because they have a work history that was taken outside, is that correct? And…

Lucy Miller: I mean, absolutely now because think about who’s the veterans are, who’s overseas fighting for us now. Most of them, many of them come out of reserves or the – what is it? The – National Guard, things like that. And a lot of people in the military, they do have attachments to the civilian economy in the past. They may have insured status.

(Darlene Middleton): So getting retirement with SSDI it’s doesn’t – like you say that SSDI and working does not affect your pension retirement at all. It may affect their pension if they are on that program. OK. But I’m confused because…

Lucy Miller: OK. You guys – all right. I’m going to stop you, (Darlene), because you guys are dragging me into the next part of the presentation I haven’t given it yet.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. Can I ask one question?

Lucy Miller: OK. But then I’m going to tell you no because we need to teach it before you guys ask me question about it. So go ahead.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. OK. I got you.

Lucy Miller: Let’s go over it first and then let’s see if you have questions after that.

(Darlene Middleton): OK.

Operator: There are no further questions at this time.

Lucy Miller: OK. You guys are champing at the bit. You want to know about this compensation and pension, so let’s get in it.

The first thing you need to know is how to apply. Well, it’s pretty basic system. You – most veterans, they apply while they are in the hospital getting their disabilities treated. Certainly, the gentlemen and ladies who have service connected disabilities said, you know, maybe they, you know, that the explosive devices and all that stuff and they get injured while they’re on active duty. They’re receiving treatment, medical treatment through the military system, and that whole system is geared to help people apply for those benefits at the earliest possible juncture.

So, for the most part, by the time a veteran even gets to you, believe me, they’ve applied, they understand the system and they’ve gone through this whole thing.

Now, you can apply at any point after you are discharged from the military or separated because you’re unfit for active duty and that has to do with the severity of your disability and there’s forms that you fill out. They’re available online. This is not for the faint of hearts. These forms are complicated. They are lengthy and it matters what you write on them, and there is all kinds of help out there to direct a veteran and give a veteran instructions about how to complete the process. This is something we expect a CWIC to do.

What we do expect you to know is that the benefits exist, where to go to get the application form and how to get started. Beyond that, there are hosts of professionals and agencies out there available to support veterans as they move through this application process. That’s not something we expect you to do.

Now, there’s a toll-free number that we offer there that will – is available to answer questions. And, as I said, lots of different organizations assist the ladies and gentlemen in the application process.

I will warn you. If you think it takes a long time to get on a Social Security disability, you ain’t seen nothing yet. This is a very overloaded system. They’re working as fast as they possibly can, but we have wars in two countries. We have many veterans coming back who are severely injured and disabled. This is system is currently overwhelmed.

Now, we don’t want people to give up and not pursue their applications, but they do have to know that these determinations are very, very time consuming and, you know, it’s really – from what I can tell, you actually get a disability determination faster in many cases through Social Security, then you (do so) to V.A. That system is just swamped.

Now, how do they – how do they evaluate your disability? Well, it’s completely different from the way Social Security does this. In Social Security, you know how you have the listing of impairments and you’re either are disabled meaning that you meet the listing. You’re not engaging in (SQA) and are unable to engage in (STA), you know, the five steps sequential evaluation. You either are disabled or you ain’t disabled.

It doesn’t work that in the V.A. In the V.A. system, you can be zero to 100 percent and those percentages go up by 10 percent. People will come at you with all different percentage ratings. Now, the interesting fact is the higher the disability rating is, the more you get in your monthly disability benefit payment. So you can see right away that there is an incentive here for a veteran to push for the highest rating possible.

Now, the ratings are interesting because they were originally intended to represent the degree to which a veteran’s earnings capacity is diminished by whatever disability or combination of disabilities he or she has.

Now, how in the world they quantify this into percentages is completely beyond me. And according to the General Accounting Office, the whole system is pretty messed up so it’s, you know, it’s really interesting the way this is all supposed to go. And it’s probably one of the reasons why the disability determination takes so long in this system, trying to figure out what percentage are you and then was it related to your service or not. This step gets real complicated.

Now, there is a – like a listing of impairments through the V.A. It’s called the Schedule for Rating Disabilities or the VASRD and I’ve seen it. It’s a pretty thick publication. I can’t recommend it except as reading to put you to sleep at night. But it is available. It is something that you can find online if you have a mind to do that.

The V.A. unlike the military considers all service connected disabilities. They look at the totality of the changes in the person’s medical condition that has occurred during a military service, whereas the Department of Defense only considers physical disabilities, and don’t ask me why that is. I have absolutely no idea.

And unlike the Department of Defense, the V.A., that process permits reevaluation of service connected disabilities if the condition worsens or improves over time. And, boy, the devil is in the details on this one. If an individual gets worse, you can go back down to the V.A. and ask for a reevaluation. You can have your rating increased. Let’s say you’re at 30 percent and you can get it bumped up to 50 percent that can make an enormous difference in the amount of money you receive every month.

And there’s a lot of incentive for veterans to keep pushing for a higher and higher rating, because there are additional benefits that are added to the mix when your rating hits a certain point. So the system – I understand why we set it up this way, you certainly want to compensate veterans when the disability worsens, but you can see the incentives here for focusing on disability, I’m getting worse, I’m getting worse, I’m going back to the V.A. for a reevaluation or reexamination to get more money.

Well, it can go in the other direction, too. You can be reevaluated and if V.A. says, hey, we think you’re doing better and you obviously you have an improvement in your medical condition, it’s possible to have your rating reduced. Now, it doesn’t happen very often, but if you read the rule book it certainly can happen and it does happen. There are things that are built in to the law to protect a veteran, but it certainly can happen.

Now, one of the things that is different in the Social Security system, you know, you’ve got that CDR process and you’re (diaried) for a medical review on an ongoing, regular and periodic basis. The V.A. is still overwhelmed. They don’t do that. So it’s not like there’s a diary date for a medical review if you get compensation. It’s not like that.

Most of the time when people get reevaluated, it’s because they’ve asked to be reevaluated. They’re trying to get a higher rating so they get more money. So, and unfortunately, sometimes that works in the exact opposite. OK.

Now, to make it even more complicated, the Department of the Defense and the Veterans Administration use different ratings systems. You can have the same veteran getting two different benefits and that is possible, as one of the callers indicated before, you can get a DoD, military retirement due to disability and V.A. and you could have two different ratings. You have the same disabilities, two different ratings from the different agencies. It’s just nuts. There’s just no way to sometimes make sense of all this complexity.

Well, let’s take a look at the ratings designations because rating is really important in this system. As we said, you can get a rating of anywhere from zero. You can actually have disability rating of zero. Zero up to 100 percent. And 100 percent disability is considered total disability. They call it that. You’re totally disabled, 100 percent disabled.

You can also achieve total disability not based on your medical evidence, you might be at 50 or 60 percent based on medical evidence. But you might be awarded 100 percent disability because of something called individual unemployability and we’ll explain that in a minute. But it means that you’ve demonstrated you really have a hard time getting or keeping a job. And remember that if you’re considered 100 percent disabled, you get a much bigger payment, a much bigger payment. So you can see that there is an incentive here for veterans to constantly be asking for that reevaluation or to pursue 100 percent disability rating based on individual unemployability.

Now, the third button there is prominent and total disability and that is when the V.A. has said you’re 100 percent and you’re prominent. This disability is never ever going to get better. And once that label has been put on somebody, all – there’s a whole lot of advantages to it, believe it or not. You’re never a subject to reviews of your disability anymore. You don’t have to worry about working anymore. You’re not going to ever have a review of your disability because they’ve said you’re 100 percent and it’s prominent. It isn’t getting better. So if it’s prominent, then we don’t need to do reviews on you regardless, no matter what.

So I know that these things are not commonsensical. It’s even worsens Social Security in some ways. But these are – these are things that, you know, if you come to me for (T.A.), you’ve heard me say, this is serenity prayer stuff. This is stuff you just have to sort of accept. It is what it is, and if you try to make sense out of some of it, you make yourself nuts. So, rating is critically important and that’s the main point to bring from this. The higher the rating, the more money that veteran brings in.

All right. How do you get V.A. disability compensation? Well, your disability has to be service connected. That means either incurred or aggravated during active military service. Your separation or discharge from the military has to be under conditions other than dishonorable. And V.A. compensation is very much an entitlement program. It’s not means tested in any way.

The way I like to think about this is that this is – the compensation is a debt that our society has to a veteran who put him or herself in harm’s way and came back from a military engagement disabled. This is a debt our country pays to our citizens who served in the military and get hurt.

So it doesn’t really matter to the military or to the V.A. whether or not you’ve got $2,000 in the bank or whether you have rental property that pays you money or whether you’re married to the richest woman or man in the world. Nobody cares. It isn’t about welfare. It’s not about, you know, what have you got and what team you are on. It’s about you served your country. You got hurt and we owe you. So you have to always think about it in that way.

Now, V.A. disability compensation benefits can be received in combination with the Department of Defense benefits, as we’ve said, but there’s like an offset. You remember how in the Social Security system, if you get another public disability benefit, there’s often an offset. Meaning that your Social Security is reduced or the other public disability benefit is reduced some, not cut off, but reduced. Similar to this that nowadays, and this is fairly new, you can retire from the military based on disability and turn around and go to the V.A. and file a disability claim there and it’s possible to get an additional payment albeit or perhaps a reduced payment from that system as well.

And having said that, I have not tapped out the extent of my knowledge on that subject, and whatever is in the paper it’s all we expect you all to know as well. You just need to know it’s possible to get both. If you’re seeing beneficiaries who are retired based on disability and have Social Security, you might want to ask did you ever – did you know you can collect the V.A. benefit possibly and have you ever investigated that. And if so, you might – if not, you might want to pursue that and see.

Let’s see here – there are all kinds of special bells and whistles that go with disability compensation. If you get a rating or had a rating of 30 percent or more, you can get additional allowances for your dependents. Now, interestingly, this can be dependent children, this can be a dependent spouse, it can even be a dependent parent, which I thought was interesting.

I found out looking something up recently. So if you’re someone who’s taking care of an aged parent that might be something you can get additional compensation for. That with certain types of disabilities, and I’m not even going to go into like what kind, but certain types of disabilities and the rules go on and on and on about what qualifies for this. That certain disabilities qualify veterans for a special monthly compensation, which is an additional kind of an allowance on top of the regular V.A. disability compensation.

Again, you don’t need to know all of what causes someone to be eligible. You just need to know to ask somebody are you getting this and have you ever looked into it, OK?

Now, veterans who are 100 percent, remember that total disability, 100 percent who are quote, “housebound or bedridden”, I apologize on behalf of the V.A. for some of their outdated language here, that if you meet the requirements for being housebound or bedridden that you can get an additional special monthly compensation payment known as Aid and Attendance and Housebound Allowance.

Now, these are – these are just basic additional benefits we want you to know about because the system is so complicated that veterans will come to you and not be receiving everything that they might be entitled to.

Again, you don’t need to know all the ins and outs of eligibility. You need to know the basics. You would review that with the veteran and ask have you ever checked into this. And if not, they need to head down to a vet service center or down to the V.A. hospital and ask to see the veteran’s benefits specialist there and ask about how to apply for those special bells and whistles.

Let me see what else we’ve got here. That’s compensation. Now, let’s talk about pension. Pension is completely different.

Pension is the only cash payment available to veterans with non-service connected disabilities. Now, to qualify for this particular cash payment program, you have to have had at least 90 days of active military service with at least one day during a period of war and, oh my goodness, the definition of what it means to be in a period of war, you don’t need to be an expert, but suffice it to say it’s pretty complicated.

Some vets have to serve longer. OK. The disability designation has to be prominent and total. Not just 100 percent, but 100 percent and prominent in order to qualify for the pension. OK. This is not for the walking wounded. This is for the people who really, really have severe disabilities.

Now, the separation or the discharge from the military has again be under conditions other than dishonorable, and the disability must not be due to willful misconduct like a self-inflicted wound, which I thought was an interesting thing that they would throw in there.

The V.A. pension is a very small amount of money that in the amount that you can get does go up every year. It’s established by Congress. You can go online to see what the levels are this year and in past years, so it’s a link in your paper that takes you there. And to get this – to get pension, you have to meet some really strict income and asset guidelines worse than SSI.

And if you have any other kind of income, your pension payment if you’re found eligible for it, are reduced dollar for dollar by the amount of that income if it’s countable and they count income not only of the veteran but also of the spouse and even dependent children.

Even SSI doesn’t count the income of dependent children against the parent, but the V.A. disability pension does. It is very strict. Very, very strict. So suffice it to say, work is heavily – I’m sorry to say, this incentivize in the system because you go to work and it’s your gross income they’re going to count and they’re going to take dollar, a dollar away from your pension for every dollar you earn before taxes are taken out. So you can imagine working when you’re an individual who relies on V.A. disability pension, it’s pretty rough.

Now, there are some additional benefits afforded to veterans, if the cash benefits that I just mentioned are the two huge programs, but there are lots and lots of other things and the next slide just list them. And then in your manual or in the paper that you got with this presentation are nice, little explanations of each of these things, tells you who can qualify. Again, CWICs are not expected to be experts on this. We expect you to ask people, did you get this? Do you get this? Do you know what it is? And we would like it if you could spot people who potentially would be eligible, but maybe didn’t know that this existed.

Look at the list here. You could get specially adapted housing grants, which is money to help you retrofit your house because of physical disabilities. You can get insurance, specialized insurance. You can get assistance with adapting an automobile, which is awesome. You know, there’s clothing allowance for certain people, and then there’s that special cash benefit that’s available to certain, you know, eligible individuals who are house-bound or, quote, “bedridden” – sorry for that very inappropriate language, but that is the V.A. language – for those benefits.

Let me see. Where to get more information? This is slide 22. And these Web sites that we’ve provided are awesome, and these need to be links that anytime you’re working with a veteran, you should be sharing these links with the veterans. These sources of information are written for non-expert folks, you and me and the veterans and their family members, and they give really nice explanations of how all of this works.

You’ve got a handbook for injured service members and their families. That’s actually my favorite. You’ve got a really nice booklet that the V.A. puts out called Federal Benefit for Veterans and their Dependents. Notice that it doesn’t just say veterans with disabilities. All veterans, so there’s other things in this booklet that are available to any veteran, not just veterans who are disabled.

And then, is a great Web site and they offer really nice explanations of veterans’ benefits. And again, their benefits that they explain are all the benefits for veterans, not just the benefits that relate to disability. And if you were present on our last call two weeks ago, remember that we talked about things like the educational assistance, help with establishing a small business.

There are all kinds of benefits available that have nothing to do with the person being disabled. And boy, they get really complicated, so you need to be referring people to good sources of information about those benefits.

Now let’s take a look at the next couple of slides, and then I’m going to take some more questions. The big question for you all of course is, all right. I’ve got a guy. He’s on a V.A. benefit. He’s on social security. He wants to go to work, and what do I tell him?

Well, you tell him different things depending on what he’s getting. First of all, military retirement due to disability is never affected by earned income ever, ever, ever. So, knock yourself out, dude. Go get a great job, do whatever you want to do. You don’t even have to tell them it’s all good. No negative effect, no positive effect either other than you have another source of income. But there’s no effect on that at all.

Now, V.A. disability compensation is not affected by earned income in that it doesn’t cause, like, your (tax) to be decreased or they’re to be an offset or anything like that, except – except, and this is a huge except – if you are working and you undergo a medical reexamination, remember what your disability rating represents. The disability rating represents the amount to which the military at least and the V.A. says your earnings capacity has been reduced based on disability.

So if you get a job making $200,000 a year and you go back down to the V.A. and you say, you know, I only have a 50 percent rating and I think I deserve a 70 percent rating and I want a reexamination, and you’re out there earning $200,000 a year, guess what is likely to happen to you. You’re not going to get an increase in your rating, you’re likely to get a decrease because your earnings capacity is awesome at $200,000 a year. It isn’t diminished by your disability.

And then people always want to ask, well, Lucy, how likely is it that that’s going to happen? There’s no way to predict that. There is no way. Now, remember that in a disability compensation system, they don’t have (diaried) CDRs. It’s not like every three years or every seven years you’re going to be subjected to this awful medical review and you’re going to have to go through the stress of, oh my goodness, am I going to make it? Are they going to cut me off? That’s not it at all.

It’s just if it’s brought to their attention that you are working at this incredible level and the reviewer decides that your recurrent rating does not really represent how much your disability has diminished or earnings capacity, you can have a ratings reduction. But they’re not likely to call a rating review. The way that rating reviews in this system happen it’s the veteran that asks for it. Nine times out of 10, the veteran asks to be re-reviewed because they want a higher rating.

Well, if you’re going to do that and you’re working at a pretty substantial level, you’re going to incur some risk, and there’s just no way for me to quantify that risk in any kind of meaningful way. And you can’t quantify it either. It is – it is what it is.

Now, are you required to report to the V.A. when you’re working? No. Are they going to know – I mean, are they going to, like, snoop around after you to see if you’re working and hold some medical review? I seriously doubt it. I can’t imagine that that would be the case.

There is no system in the V.A. to have regularly scheduled medical reviews. It doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work that way, OK?

So it is something you have to talk to with beneficiaries, so – and it makes the people nervous because it’s like you can’t promise them if they get a really great job that it wouldn’t cause a reduction in their rating, their disability rating. You can’t promise them that wouldn’t happen.

The likelihood of that happening is very slim, especially if the veteran doesn’t rattle the cage and asks for a reexamination. But, you know, you can’t really make promises. There’s no way of really knowing what could happen, and it makes people nervous, and I wish there was a cleaner way for me to explain that or a way for us to talk to beneficiaries about it, but it is what it is.

Now, look at that next slide and there are some people who can go to work at any level who are on compensation, disability compensation, and not have to worry, and this is the list. Employment does not cause a review. It will never any kind of reduction in the rating for certain people.

Number one, for people who are elderly, meaning aged 69 or older. Second, people who are designated as being 100 percent (schedule a rating) or designated as having permanent and total.

So, you know, if you’ve got 100 percent rating or if you’re the super duper 100 percent plus permanent, you can work at any level and nobody’s going to care, OK? You could ask for – there would be no reason for you to ask for a review because you’re already getting as much as you possibly could. You had 100 percent (schedule a rating). They’re not going to bother you and you’re not going to bother them and you can work and be fine.

Now, the last bullet there, people who are designated as being totally disabled due to something called individual unemployability and if you had that designation for at least 20 years, 20 continuous years, then you can work as much as you like and nobody’s going to reduce your rate. You’re totally safe.

But these here are the only people who the V.A. promises we’re not going to review your disability rating under any circumstances. We’re just not going to mess with you, OK? The employment’s not going to bother you.

Well, look at the next slide. Persons with potential risk of a disability rating reduction due to employment, and don’t hear me say that everybody like this gets reduced. That’s – a reduction in rating is rare. It’s rare.

Do I have data on it? No, I don’t. The V.A. doesn’t offer data on that. Can we give odds to a beneficiary? No. Can we predict for a beneficiary when, if they might get (hauled) before reexamination and what the likelihood of a rating reduction? No.

All we can do is say you’re going to incur a little risk. We don’t know the level of that risk, OK? And kind of depends on how much you’re working and what you’re doing.

So who are the people at risk? Veterans who are under age 69, OK? We schedule a ratings under 100 percent. OK? That’s a huge group of people. All right?

So if you’ve got a 52-year-old dude with a (schedule of rating) of 40 percent who’s out there earning $100,000 year, there’s a potential risk there that that rating could be reviewed and reduced. OK?

Now, veterans who are rated as being totally disabled based on individual unemployability, and let’s remember what that is. That means that your actual rating is lower than 100 percent, like you’re 30, 40, 60 percent, but social – not social security, the V.A. has given you the designation of totally disabled because you have demonstrated over a period of time that you are unable to get a job or keep a job, OK, because of your disability.

So it’s not like it’s really changing your medical condition. It isn’t. But it is causing you or allowing you to get in 100 percent rating, totally disabled based on individual unemployability, and you get paid as if you were at the 100 percent rating level, which is a lot of money. There’s a lot at stake here, OK? And if you have had that individual unemployability rating for less than 20 consecutive years, all right, you’re a potential risk.

If you’re working in a substantially gainful occupation – isn’t that interesting, the wording they use? So similar to social security – then it’s very possible that they could say, hey, you’re not exactly individually unemployable anymore. We’re not going to rate you as totally disabled. We’re going to take you back down to your original rating, which was whatever it was, 40, 50, 60 percent, and we’re going to reduce your monthly benefit.

Just something to know, individual unemployablity is just a really ugly kind of concept that this system has, and you need to be asking people if they have that designation, because it matters if they have that and then go to work.

All right, well, what is substantially gainful employment? Now, there’s a question for the ages, just like in the social security world, and then just as vague a definition here. Substantial gainful employment is defined as employment at which a non-disabled individual would earn their livelihood with earnings comparable to the particular occupation in the community where the veteran resides.

So it’s kind of the comparison with a non-disabled peer. Are you able to support yourself by working, and is the work that you’re doing comparable to anybody else doing that work in your local community? And if the answer to that is yes, then the V.A. can say, well, you are engaging in a substantially gainful employment. We don’t consider you to be individually unemployable anymore, Mr. Smith. You’re not going to get the 100 percent total rating. We’re going to bump you back to your original rating, which is whatever it was, OK?

Remember, the rating that a person gets is connected to their ability to work. Remember, the whole purpose of it in the original legislation is supposed to be directly connected to the amount that your earnings capacity has been diminished by the disability that you incurred by serving your country. OK? So the country is compensating you for the fact that you’ve got this disability that has now made it more difficult for you to earn a living, OK? And it’s quantified in 10 percentage point increments.

So – and then people say, well, quantify this for me, Lucy. Tell me when this will happen. I mean, what are they looking at? Their rulebook is nowhere near as explicit as social security’s. You think social security is complicated with (SDA) and how they determine that? Social security is a dream compared to the V.A.

There is – there is so much (squishiness) here. There is so much subjectivity here, so much less instructions to their ratings reviewers than claims reps are forced to work under that it, you know, really, when I first started to research this, I found this just astounding, that the rules were as vague as they were and that V.A. disability adjudicators really have within some confines a pretty substantial leeway to make determinations.

So that’s the system, and it – and it can be difficult.

Now, what is substantially gainful employment exclude? When is somebody working and it’s obvious they aren’t substantially gainfully employed?

Well, they have this whole thing called marginal employment, and marginal employment exists when a veteran’s earned income does not exceed the current federal poverty guideline for a household of one. So there you go. There’s a parameter. Well, if I’m not earning over the federal poverty guideline, then I guess I’m not really earning enough to cause a reduction in my rating.

Your earnings can go over the federal poverty guideline and you could still not be considered to be working in substantial work if the work occurred in a protected environment, like in a family business or a shelter workshop or when you’re engaged in supported employment services. And remember, two weeks ago we learned about that whole compensated work therapy program which includes sheltered work and supported employment. So that would certainly – under those circumstances, for the V.A. purposes, probably not be considered substantially gainful employment.

So if, you know, this is – this is pretty complicated stuff, and the next slide gives you the final provisors there. Effective in ’85, January of ’85, a veteran’s total disability rating based on individual unemployability may not be reduced solely on the basis of having secured substantially gainful employment, unless the veteran maintains the occupation for 12 consecutive months.

Now, remember when we’re talking about this whole substantially gainful employment thing? This really only applies to those few individuals who are considered to be, quote, “totally disabled based on individual unemployability”. Not just your regular guy that’s out there who’s at 70 percent disability. The whole substantially gainful employment concept only applies to those individuals who are getting 100 percent disability based on (your) individual unemployability.

The last bullet there talks about the fact that you can be involved in a program of rehabilitation and when you complete the program it’s possible that, you know, if your prospect for substantial employment is significant, that there could be a reduction of ratings. You know, again, it’s all about evidence that you’re improved, you recovered, you’re able to work again, that you’re not unemployable, which is what that designation basically says.

So we’re going to look at how the various other programs are looked at by SSA, but let’s stop and take questions because what we’ve covered since the last time we took questions is really about pension and compensation and how work affects pension and compensation. So what questions do you have on that issue?

I guess I need to holler for (Sarah). (Sarah), are you there? Can you take questions for me?

Operator: At this time, if you would like to ask a question, press star then one on your telephone keypad.

Your first question comes from (Kelly Cayman). Your line is now open.

(Kelly Cayman): Hi, Lucy.

Lucy Miller: Hey, (Kelly).

(Kelly Cayman): How are you doing?

Lucy Miller: Good.

(Kelly Cayman): I am curious to know, do any of these government entities shares records, like SSA does with IRS?

Lucy Miller: Not that I know of. Not that I know of.

To the best of my knowledge, the V.A. system, they do not have the kind of – what would you even say – not only do they not have regularly scheduled CDRs, where they’re checking to see if you’re still disabled or how disabled you are, but they don’t have any way to interface with anybody to see if you’re working. They don’t interface with the IRS, they don’t interface with the unemployment insurance rolls, which social security in a lot of states does now, because they can get three months data, quarterly data, out of that system rather than annual data.

They don’t have a checkup system, and, from what I can tell, the likelihood that out of the blue, like a V.A. examiner would, you know, call you up and say, hi, are you working? I mean, these people are swamped. They don’t do that. The only –

What seems to happen, and again, this is anecdotal narrative. I have no quantifiable data. What seems to happen is that veterans get nailed when they request a review to try to get more money, and they don’t realize that by being, you know, an independent contractor, you know, earning $100,000 a year could actually be considered by the V.A. when they’re looking at the rating and could cause a reduction.

So that seems to be how it happens. There is no V.A. police, nobody following you around, looking to see that you’re working. It’s not like private disability insurance where you’ve got investigators that, you know, might snoop or follow people around or – and certainly not like social security who has a regular system of checking on people and seeing how much they work. They just – they don’t – they just don’t do that.

(Kelly Cayman): OK.

Lucy Miller: Interesting.

(Kelly Cayman): OK. Thank you.

Operator: Your next question comes from (Suzette Cranston). Your line is now open.

Lucy Miller: Are you there?

Operator: Ms. (Cranston), your line is now open.

(Suzette Cranston): Oh, sorry. I had the mute on.

Lucy Miller: Oh, I do that all the time. Don’t worry. You’re among friends.

(Suzette Cranston): Yes, thanks.

Every time I hear this, a little bit more locks into my brain, so that’s really wonderful.

Lucy Miller: Well, good.

(Suzette Cranston): I want to go back to where the compensation, V.A. disability compensation and VAD benefits are being received simultaneously, and how they might impact each other. Do you know how – which impacts which?

Lucy Miller: I don't know any more than what is in that paper. That was all I was able to find about that subject in my research, and that what’s in your paper was word for word out of I believe the V.A. manual on benefits.

It’s fairly new, this opportunity for you to collect on both systems. I don't know any more than what it says in there.

So I – you know, it’s one of those things that if you see a guy or a gal that’s retired based on disability, in the old days you didn’t use to be able to get a V.A. benefit, so you want to check with him or her and say, do you know that you might now be able to get one and here’s where you need to go to check it out. And then let the V.A. take it from there and figure out which gets reduced by what.

My guess is it’s the V.A. is somewhat reduced by the military retirement. That would be my guess. But I’m not sure of that.

(Suzette Cranston): And that’s what I was going to ask, who would be good to ask? It would be the V.A. then?

Lucy Miller: Absolutely. Absolutely. And every single V.A. hospital, if you have one near you, every single V.A. hospital has somebody on their staff that is the benefits expert, and the guy that serves in that capacity here in Louisville has spoken to the CWICs here with some presentations. It’s been a while, and he’s very knowledgeable and very nice.

But if you have a V.A. hospital anywhere near you, that is a wonderful – find that person. You know, who is your veteran’s benefits counselor or expert, and they’ll have somebody that that’s their job. And that person could probably explain it all day.

(Suzette Cranston): That’s an excellent idea. Thank you.

Lucy Miller: You’re welcome.

Anybody else?

Operator: Your next question comes from (Jen Harker). Your line is now open.

(Jen Harker): Hi, Lucy.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Jen).

(Jen Harker): Hi. I was working with a gentleman who (has the smallest of D.I.) check, plus he had a V.A. pension, and when I was presenting a benefits analysis and reviewing how work impacts earnings, I was explaining that the pension will be reduced dollar for dollar. The (voc) counselor works in a supported employment program of V.A. informed me of this title 38 – title 38…

Lucy Miller: Is that the compensated work therapy?

(Jen Harker): It’s – right. It’s supported employment and as long as it’s – the employment is through that program, it’s excluded for the pension for the time that he’s enrolled. So it pretty interesting to me.

Lucy Miller: OK.

(Jen Harker): Yes. (So she) sent me the documentation, if you’d like to have anything like that.

Lucy Miller: I would love that. Or I could look it up online.

(Jen Harker): OK.

Lucy Miller: Title 38 is a huge title, though.

(Jen Harker): Yes. (Inaudible) a portion of it. It’s title 38 USC 1718.

Lucy Miller: OK. Well, I would – I would love to see that. I could certainly try and search and find it, and I know that the participation in the compensated work therapy program doesn’t – and they offer, you know, from our last (inaudible) you all know, and it’s in the paper that they offer sheltered employment, supported employment, you know lots of different things that that wasn’t affected.

(Jen Harker): Yes. So (a nice benefit) for this guy for a while.

Lucy Miller: That’s great. That’s great.

(Jen Harker): OK.

Lucy Miller: Pension’s just ugly. I mean, I can’t believe the way they treat pensions. Now, it’s worse than SSI.

(Jen Harker): Yes. That’s all I had.

Lucy Miller: Great. Thank you.

Operator: Your next question comes from (Joanne Rosel). Your line is now open.

(Joanne Rosel): Hello. I had a question. Is somebody – now this isn’t really a – I don’t know if it’s considered as a (inaudible) question, but I wanted to know about V.A. A person – you know, they’re on disability, OK? (They’re on security) disability. They also get a V.A. compensation, you know, 10 percent disability, and they are not working now, but they have in the past some, and they want to go back and, you know, they believe that their disability, you know, they’ve got an increase on it that it should have been more because they have more problems.

Lucy Miller: OK. Right.

(Joanne Rosel): Well they go back and look at old income and say, OK, well, you were really making more then, so we want money back, or will they go this way, what to do now?

Lucy Miller: I have no idea.

(Joanne Rosel): OK.

Lucy Miller: I have no idea. And I’ve never seen that referenced in their rulebook, so I don't know.

(Joanne Rosel): OK.

Lucy Miller: I do not know.

(Joanne Rosel): Yes. I – and that was a question that was posed to me, and I’m like, I don't want to say yay or nay because I didn’t know, so…

Lucy Miller: Yes. And I’m not even sure that we could answer that with any degree of certainty. I would just say I’m unsure.

(Joanne Rosel): Yes.

Lucy Miller: I’m unsure. We’ll say – I will say this. Most people who qualify for social security after they’ve gotten through the disability system and V.A. like let’s say that this guy came out of the military during the Vietnam War era, or maybe the Gulf War era and he came out of the service, he got a V.A. compensation benefit at 10 percent. Over time, that disability got worse and worse and worse. Eventually he went to social security and filed.

Social security, I mean, their standard of disability’s pretty fierce. I mean, that’s pretty rough.

(Joanne Rosel): Right.

Lucy Miller: So the fact being you qualified for disability benefit from social security, I would think would be germane to increasing your percentage within the V.A.

(Joanne Rosel): OK. Well, their social security disability was partially because they had one disability, what they got the 10 percent, but then they had another entry while they were active during acts of duty and they didn’t try to get disability with that one, but that’s part of the reason they got their (SSD) too.

So it’s kind of a – it’s kind of a …

Lucy Miller: (It’s always related), and you can see how these folks just get all wrapped up in this, you know, I want to keep going back to V.A. to see if it’s gotten worse and can I get more, you know? There’s a real flaw in the system like that.

(Joanne Rosel): Yes. And then look at it just saying, you know, I can’t live on what I got. I can’t work…

Lucy Miller: I understand.

(Joanne Rosel): Can I get something there?

Lucy Miller: Yes.

(Joanne Rosel): Because their disability is not that great. I mean, it’s better than the $700 or $800 or $900 that some people get, but it’s not $1,500 or $1,400, you know? And then they take out Medicare because…

Lucy Miller: Right. I know.

(Joanne Rosel): … you know, it’s just like I can’t make it. And I get that. I mean, I do. I get it.

Lucy Miller: Yes. I do too. And I think that’s just, you know, you counsel people and you say if you feel like your service connected disability has gotten worse, if you feel like your earnings capacity has diminished since you first were found entitled that compensation, you know, you’re not working now, why don’t you go down there and give it a shot? Be prepared, because you know how this is. The system is overwhelmed.

(Joanne Rosel): Right.

Lucy Miller: Overwhelmed. And it will take months and months for this determination to be made.

(Joanne Rosel): Right. Right. And they’re all – yes. And then they’re trying to get through their military retirement, and there’s kind of the whole thing is just…

Lucy Miller: Yes.

(Joanne Rosel): … (still rolling). OK. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Lucy Miller: You’re welcome, for whatever it was worth.

Anybody else?

Operator: Your next question comes from (Darlene Middleton). Your line is now open.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. I know – you know, it’s me again, Lucy.

Lucy Miller: OK. I’m ready. Now we’ve sort of explained this, and now we got a question around this stuff.

(Darlene Middleton): Yes.

Lucy Miller: OK.

(Darlene Middleton): OK, I want to know – my understanding is that you can get payment for DOD and disability compensation at the same time and that it wouldn’t affect veteran’s who’ve gone to work, is that correct?

Lucy Miller: OK. You can get both of those benefits at the same time. Work never affects military retirement. Never.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. So my next question is when you talk about the pension, that’s a (inaudible).

Lucy Miller: Pension and compensation are two different programs. In your earlier question you said the person was getting military retirement and compensation.

(Darlene Middleton): Yes, but I’m saying that means that they can’t get pension because pension goes (dollar by dollar)…

Lucy Miller: That’s correct, and you don’t want pension. You don’t want pension. Pension is the last case scenario for people who can’t get a military benefit or retirement or V.A. benefit any other way.

(Darlene Middleton): And (these are needs based like) SSI, correct?

Lucy Miller: Yes, it’s needs-based, and it’s the only benefit payable for people with non-service connected disabilities…

(Darlene Middleton): OK.

Lucy Miller: … OK? And to get it you have to be considered 100 percent disabled and permanent.

(Darlene Middleton): OK.

Lucy Miller: Total and permanent. It’s not easy to get.

(Darlene Middleton): I got you. I just want to make sure that that was the (needs based) program.

Lucy Miller: Yes. Strictly (needs based).

(Darlene Middleton): … (dollar for dollar), which means that they can’t get it along with DOD or disability capitation.

Lucy Miller: The likelihood that it would be in combination with those is extremely slim.

(Darlene Middleton): OK. I agree. I understand. Thanks.

Lucy Miller: OK.

What other questions?

Operator: Your next question comes from (Mike Rowe). Your line is now open.

Lucy Miller: Hi, (Mike).

(Mike Rowe): Hey, Lucy. I hate to horn in again.

Lucy Miller: Oh, no. I like it when you do. You’re my – you’re my reality check. Jump in.

(Mike Rowe): OK, on the question the young lady was asking about, you know…

Lucy Miller: (Past work)…

(Mike Rowe): … that they get the 10 percent rating, then they go to work, make good money, do they come back in.

Well, if they go back and reapply to have that V.A. rating increased, the V.A. don’t give a rat’s you-know-what about how much money you made or are making or anything. You – what you got to do is say, look – this is like social security. You got to prove now that even though your disability have been 20 years ago, now you got to prove that it’s worsened.

Lucy Miller: Yes, you do.

(Mike Rowe): I can find those records. The V.A. didn’t have (to find those) records.

Lucy Miller: You do. Yes.

(Mike Rowe): So you tell him that could take him a year or two to get social security disability. I worked with a guy, a friend of mine, when I lived in Memphis, six years to get anything. You know, then he had to get a lawyer to do that.

Lucy Miller: Oh, and I hear horror stories like that about the V.A. benefits all the time, (Mike). And I know you do from all the work you do with veterans. I mean, there are people who will work at this for years and years and years, and a lot of it is proving that the disability was related to your service.

Everyone’s clear, yes, you have a disability. We get it. But the problem always seems to be proving that this disability that you have is related to your service.

(Mike Rowe): Right.

Lucy Miller: Yes. And that’s tough.

(Mike Rowe): (For educational) purposes or people (want to know) the difference in the pension and the non-service connected, service connected pension, well, that, I think for 2010 – and this has gone up, last I heard, the amount – the maximum amount was $938. But 100 percent V.A. could be anywhere from $2,700 up.

Lucy Miller: Yes. I agree. It’s a whole lot less money, and it’s a whole lot harder to get. Yes.

(Mike Rowe): Yes. So I just wanted to throw that in there.

Lucy Miller: That’s awesome. Thank you.

Anybody else? I love it when (Mike Rowe) – (Mike Rowe) is a CWIC from Tennessee, folks, and he is a veteran himself. A veteran of the Vietnamese War – Vietnam War, and was a former disability beneficiary and a super awesome CWIC. So I always like it when he’s on these calls because I know if I say something goofy he’ll help me out.

Anybody else?

Operator: There are no further questions at this (time).

Lucy Miller: Well, let’s finish up. We’ve got left just some sort of odds and ends. And looking at the interaction between social security benefits and veterans benefits.

Let’s just add social security into the picture, so we’re starting here, I think it’s on slide number 29. Veterans who are disabled while on active military service after October 1 of 2001 get expedited claims processing from social security, which is awesome. So you can apply and if you can make it clear that you are a veteran of military service, that you will get a faster disability determination, which I think is wonderful.

Now, remember too that military pay is now subject to FICA, and you know what FICA is. It’s that tax that you pay on your wages that contributes to social security. So a lot of veterans now have insured status for title two, whereas in the old days the military disability system and social security were completely separate. It’s not like that now.

So we always encourage veterans who may call us up and say, well I get a V.A. benefit but I don’t get social security. Should I apply? And the answer to that is if you’re not engaging in (FTA), yes, you need to go apply and see if you can qualify for benefit on that system as well.

Now, interestingly enough, active duty status and receive the military pay does not necessarily prevent payment of disability benefits. So listen to this because this is awesome. Let’s say that you get severely wounded in active service. You aren’t separated from the military yet, but you’re like on light duty or almost no duty. You’re still in the military. You’re still getting a paycheck, but you’re not performing work for that paycheck, you can go ahead and apply for social security right now, even though the actual money that you might be receiving from the military is more than (FTA).

But they’re not going to say you’re engaging in (FTA), because, remember (FTA) is about work activity, and if you’re simply receiving money because you’re on hold, waiting for your discharge or your separation from the military and you’re not functioning in your normal capacity, you can go ahead and apply and be found eligible. And there’s a whole POMS citation about this. There’s a whole fact sheet about this, and I’ve provided a link to that right here.

So if you are ever contacted by a member of the military who is about to be separated based on disability and they want to know can I apply, you need to tell them get down there and get it taken care of right now. You never know. You might be found eligible and if you’re found eligible for social security give me a call back so we can start on with the services.

Well, how do the V.A. and the SSA disability benefits interact? Well, what’s interesting is that the V.A. disability compensation is not affected by getting SSA disability benefits in any way whatsoever. If you think – if a veteran comes to you and says, should I apply? Should I apply? I just tell them, look, if you’re not engaged in your (FTA), do it.

I can’t predict for you what – you know, what would make you eligible. Yes, you’re eligible, or no, you’re not. If your disability causes you problems with working and you’re not engaged in your (FTA) now, you’re not earning at that level, go apply.

Now, V.A. disability pension, remember, pension is the means tested program, is definitely going to count the title two benefit as (in Cameron). Remember, that’s going to be dollar for dollar. That’s (SSDI). And, in most cases, it’s going to cause ineligibility for V.A. pension benefits or certainly that dollar for dollar reduction in those payments.

Now, what is interesting is that in the rulebook it says that SSI payments do not count against V.A. pension. But, guess what? V.A. pension does count against SSI and they’re both dollar – you know, means – very strictly means tested programs. So even though one says it doesn’t count, the other – the other does count the pension.

So it all ends up in the wash that the likelihood that you will have both SSI and V.A. pension is pretty slim. So it’s just something to consider. And certainly SSI, if you can qualify for it, as actually (less nastily) means tested than the V.A. pension, so you might want to do that one instead. You know, it’s hard to believe you’d ever say that about SSI, but there you have it.

Receipt of a Department of Defense or V.A. benefit does not affect a veteran’s ability for – eligibility for title two. And (SSDI) payments, and I think this is really interesting, in most cases, if you get (SSDI) and you have some other form of public disability benefit like worker’s comp or like a state benefit, disability benefit, something like that, in most cases, remember that’s going to cause an offset in your (SSDI).

But in the POMS, and I guess by federal statute, it is clearly stated that V.A., any disability benefits you get from the V.A. – not from the military, but from the V.A. – are not regarded as a public disability benefit. So that’s awesome.

(SSDI) payments are not reduced by V.A. disability benefits. They are reduced by military retirement based on disability, but not the V.A. benefit.

Now, why they make that exemption for V.A. and not military, I don't know. But the fact is that they do, and, as I recall, there are citations in there that we, in the paper that we give you links to.

Now, as always, SSIs means tested. It would count anything, OK? It’s going to count DOD, it’s going to count V.A. cash benefits. That’s with all the unearned income. And, get this, you don’t even get the $20 general income exclusion. Remember, V.A. pension doesn’t count SSI, but SSI counts V.A. pension, and you don’t even get $20 deducted. I mean, it’s just like the SSI program and the V.A. pension program just sort of hate each other, and they just make it almost impossible to get both of those simultaneously.

And if you – if you – I would certainly apply for SSI first and try to get that one since it certainly comes with Medicaid and it’s certainly less ugly to earned income, and if I didn’t qualify for that then you might go to the V.A. pension system. And if you can qualify, but remember, you’re not going to get V.A. pension unless you are 100 percent disabled and permanent. So it’s not easy to get. So there’s that.

The appeals process is pretty, pretty lengthy. You know, they have a whole bunch of papers about it on the Web site. There’s all kinds of information. Any decision made by the V.A. can be appealed. There is a one-year limit on appeals from the date the notice was mailed. There’s no required form. There is a written statement that you have to submit to the local V.A. office, and there are attorneys –

Just like in the social security system, there’s attorneys who specialize in this. There are attorneys who specialize in V.A. cases as well. And my understanding is that their appeals process is more time-consuming and more confusing for beneficiaries even than social securities. It’s just a huge system.

Now, slide number 34, I want to remind people that states offer veteran benefits in addition to the military and the V.A., so we’ve got a link here. You need to go online. It’s amazing what states offer benefit – offer for veterans, and local counties and cities offer special things. Things like free licensing for hunting, discounts on your property insurance. There are myriad, weird little bells and whistles that various states, counties and cities offer veterans of the U.S. Armed Services.

So check into this and, you know, find out what your state offers. Make sure that you’re asking veterans, have you checked into what you might be eligible for in the state? And, again, people within the V.A. system and on the periphery of the V.A. system who know this stuff backwards, forwards and upside-down, the benefits expert at your local hospital’s going to know this, your vet reps who work within the state employment offices are going to know this stuff, your vet service center folks, the case workers and case managers, and those systems often will know this stuff.

And, certainly, your – you know, the BFW, places like that, often have outreach and assistance programs where they link veterans together with experienced folks who’ve worked the system and know how it all – how it all goes. So make sure you’re familiar with the things your state offers, and if you don’t know all the details, that’s OK. Just know where you’re supposed to go to apply or find out about them.

Some things for you to understand about the disability system for veterans, you know, things that because we all come from the social security background we kind of have a certain frame of reference. The disability evaluation system in this – in V.A. is really cumbersome and slow. It can take years and years for people to get their rating and then proving that your disability is service related can really be a sticking point.

You know, we fuss about social security being a difficult system to navigate, but at least in social security we have the POMS, and the POMS is easy to find. It may not be your most favorite thing to read, but it is there, and we do know how to read it and we can find the rulebook.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you, the V.A. system, it’s not like that at all. It’s hard to find their rulebook. There is one. It’s called the WARMS, W-A-R-M-S. And it’s out there. You can find it. You can go through the V.A. Web sites and there are links to it.

But it is not easy to read. It is very vague. It is not clear or detailed as the POMS. I mean, it makes you grateful for the POMS, and that just shows you how awful it must be.

But it is not easy to find the rules, and it took VCU a long time to figure out where the information was that we could pull together to write the paper. And I hate to say it, but the way that employment affects certain V.A. benefits is unclear, and it’s unclear because the rules are unclear.

It’s not like your check is going to be reduced – well, certainly not compensation. It’s not like (tension). But, you know, this notion that you working at a significant level could somehow cause a reduction in your rating scares people. And, you know, all you can really tell a beneficiary is the likelihood of that happening is absolutely slim, unless they go to the V.A. and start rattling the cage and saying I want more money. Please, you know, let’s increase my rating.

Because the rating – by federal law, the rating is tied to your earnings capacity and how much your earnings capacity has been diminished by this disability that you acquired or that got worse while you were under military service.

So you just have to remember, there is still a connection there. There is no way to predict it. I can’t quantify it. That’s what makes beneficiaries nervous. But it is what it is.

Let me close the door. I’ve got a dog barking here. You know when you work from home, you just have all sorts of fun stuff like that.

All right. And that’s really – let me see. I think that’s the last slide. No, there’s one more. Final words. Make sure you know what a veteran gets. Remember, we try to help you with this. There is a veteran’s questionnaire. It’s in your manual, it’s on our Web site, we included it with this training.

If you have a veteran, you should be using that questionnaire to gather more information before you write the (BSNA). It’s like an addendum to the intake form, and if you’re not using that you’re probably not going to remember to ask all the right questions. So use what we give you.

Encourage veterans to apply for social security benefits. If you get a call from somebody that’s not already on them, don’t try to get into this, well, if you’ve got at least 50 percent, you might get it. Just say if you feel like your earnings capacity’s been harmed by your disability, go apply.

Make sure that veterans are aware of all those programs and just recognize the limits of your knowledge about what benefits veterans get, and just you need to know the local sources of info. That’s your job. You need to know where to refer people. You don’t need to be the expert, but you need to know where to find the experts. And then you need to actually, you know, follow up and use those people.

And remember that you offer them something. You know a lot about social security, and I’m sure that they’re interested in your expertise as well.

So that’s the end of our presentation. So, (Sarah), if you’re still there, let’s take the final call for questions.

Operator: Again, just a reminder, to ask a question, please press star then one on your telephone keypad. Again, that’s star one on your telephone keypad.

There are no questions at this time.

Lucy Miller: Wonderful. Thank you so much, (Sarah). Thanks to everybody who dialed in today.

Don’t forget, you’ll probably be getting an evaluation of the training. It’s really helpful for us if you can honestly critique what you thought was good and what we need to improve on. It really helps us, you know, tweak our programs to make them meet your needs. And don’t forget that your tech liaison is out there ready, willing and able to answer any questions you have about veterans’ benefits or anything else.

So we’re at the end of the program. Thank you so much for joining us, and have a great rest of the afternoon. Bye-bye.

Operator: … concludes today’s conference call. You may now disconnect.

END

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