That Witch Life



TWL 34: The Untraditional Witch with Paige VanderbeckThu, 5/21 8:36PM ? 1:08:58SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, witch, witchcraft, feel, spirits, question, wicca, book, sasquatch, feeling, practice, podcast, hilary, magic, explore, bit, paige, podcasts, happen, hearSPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney Hoover, Hilary, Paige, (Exit Music)Intro music 00:0320 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world, following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a witch in today's world. Hilary 00:46(Talking about lay offs) There are some resources. But yeah, I definitely didn't see it coming. So it's been a bit of a Bit of a wild week, but otherwise, I'm doing pretty well. You know, I I definitely am looking forward to more time for myself. So I guess like small silver lining there. But no, I'm pretty good. I know, it's really it's a tough it's a tough time. And I know that so many people are experiencing that. So, you know, a friend of a friend said to me today, they said, you know, at least maybe, you know, at least you're not in this alone, like so many people are in this in a similar scenario. And I said, You know what, you're really right. Like there is a there is a level of solidarity that I think, you know, doesn't always happen with layoffs. So in that sense, you know, I know I'm not alone, in that.Courtney Hoover 01:43What's the laziest most jerk off thing you're looking forward to doing now that you're unemployed? Hilary 01:48Well, like pretty much I like clicked log off on Friday and went straight into the hot tub.Kanani 01:55I was so jealous.Hilary 01:56I lit a joint... no, actually no, that's not even true. I don't I made a cup of tea I made a cup of like, I think I can't remember what brand it is but it's like a happiness tea. You know, it's like a like a you know happy tea and so I like made a cup of herbal tea. And I got in the hot tub and sat there for a while and like clockwork I had ordered some body butter from Witch Baby which is a vendor and or a small shop. That's all like which base with you based products, bath products. And it arrived and I was like sweet, I'm just gonna take this hat seven. I'm going to lather myself in this body butter and forget this is happening.Kanani 02:42That reaminds me, Hilary, with your birthday coming up. You got your first one of the first Amazon packages that I sent you delivered and what did you get to do with it?Hilary 02:54I know these bitches were like hey there's gonna be a bunch of stuff arriving for you. First of all, I'm like, Well, fuck I ordered stuff from Amazon. So you're gonna have to be very specific about like this size and like when it's arriving, but I was likeCourtney Hoover 03:08You don't really need to pay attention to that you just have to wait until you know your birthday or Kanani 03:12You don't get to open your own Amazon packages eitherHilary 03:14I am opening my like makeup products that I ordered for sure no.Courtney Hoover 03:19No! You're not going anywhere You're not going anywhere, Ree. Why do you need to make a products you're not working? You're not going out. You don't need to open your makeup products. Hilary 03:26Too late already did? So these matches, were like, Hey, we're sending you gifts. You know, like it's so my birthday is may 14. So it's a real bummer that I will be experiencing it inside. And it's my 40th birthday. So that's like an extra kick in the balls. And so yeah, these bitches were like, well, we're gonna have some presents delivers. Yeah, I was like, Oh, that's so nice. And they're like they're gonna come like in the next couple of days, but you can't open them for two weeks. And I was like what type of assholes do that to a person? You know?Courtney Hoover 04:05We do. I'm so excited because your president arrived at my house yesterday and so I've already been enjoying it, and I will send it over to you. I know that sounds actually really dirty but it's not like that. But I was gazing at it with like, Oh, it's so let me tell you something cannot he actually said something really nice when I told her what I got you. She said. Oh my god. That's so neat. And she meant it.Hilary 04:32It wasn't fake this time.? Kanani 04:34Her presence are always like more endearing. And mine are just better because they're funny. Hers are full of love. See, that's the difference.Hilary 04:45I like funny and loving presents. I'm dying you guys are terribleCourtney Hoover 04:51You know, consider it consider it an exercise in soul fortitude, whatever I don't know.Hilary 04:58And not only like, not only were They like you can't open your gifts for this time period like another one arrives and Kanani's like, just remember, don't forget, you can't open it. I was like, I already know you fucking asshole. I KNOWKanani 05:16That's why I had to bring it up and what do you get to do with your presence? Hilary?Hilary 05:20I hate both of you. I'll stare at them with hatred.Kanani 05:25So we need to talk about something that's happened that was incredibly traumatizing. That is the fact that I have I had to cut all of my nails down.Hilary 05:35Oh no! Kanani 05:36Because we had another Casualty. And so I'm just like, you know what I'm just done and some of them I can't peel off because they're still stuck to the nail enough so I just had to cut them all down. And for the first time I typed on my keyboard. Now keep in mind I have had these giant claws for over a year now.Hilary 05:53It feels so weird, right? Kanani 05:55I had to have like, like the keyboard key touched my flesh and I was like Eww it was all ewwey squishy and I am just I am not happy.Hilary 06:07Like they're they're so sensitive like when I took mine off I was like, oh God, everything is very sensitive.Kanani 06:13It's so gross. my fingertips are squishy and I don't like that I can touch them. It's very bothersome. Hilary 06:19It is totally bothersome.Courtney Hoover 06:22Well I have freedom from that because I've had cavewoman hands all my life and I don't wear fake nails, so you know, I'm doing just fine. Kanani 06:29ugh I need them back. I need my claws. And it's not even about like I said, the aesthetic like you get so used to like, yeah, it's just gross can't handle it. This is not working for me. This whole quarantine thing is no longer working for me. We're going to need to wrap this up.Hilary 06:46This isn't gonna work.Kanani 06:48This is the line, my nails coming off, this is the line we've found it we need to press forward. This is like the first time in probably 20 years about a year ago. I finally cut off the last of my dyed hair, I grew it all out. I've got really long hair now and actually, shockingly, it's all my natural color. Can you imagine how impossible I would be if I had if I had roots coming in right now? I would I would be the crazy person storming the Capitol building all by myself just rage crying. That would be me, Hilary 07:25and then we'd have to kick you off the podcast Kanani 07:27Exactly. Be like, we have to have a disclaimer. We already should have a disclaimer. The things that come out of Konami's mouth do not necessarily represent the rest of the that which live hosts. We should really that disclaimer alreadyCourtney Hoover 07:41But they do apparently represent the vast majority of our audience members. I'm fine aside from the fact that I'm just really cranky as hell right now because my period is five days late. No audience I am not pregnant. Please don't ask please don't assume, but I it's turns out that that is a side product for me of grief, like when my friend, well Hilary and my friend passed away about a year and a half ago, my period was four days late after that, and like normally my menstrual cycle the government times, like, like clocks and the naval ships schedule around it is so freakin timely. And so what it is like multiple days late, it just kind of throws me off and so I'm just really ready to like, you know, I'm eating all the peanut butter out of the jar with the spoon and then just wanting to break the jar over someone's head.Kanani 08:36You've you've always been like that, which I think is so hilarious, because now I just I don't have one very often because of my birth control pill but even when I was not on the pill, my mind is like a guessing game. When are we going to have one this month? I don't know. How long is it gonna last? Who knows? Maybe it'll happen. Maybe it won't have an oh look seven weeks later. There it is. Oh look two weeks later there it is like there was just there was nothing. There was no rhyme. There was no reason there was nothingCourtney Hoover 09:05Your's was like pong. It was like where's the ball going to land on one side?Kanani 09:08Yeah. It was it was the most horrible guessing game in the history of the world.Courtney Hoover 09:14Yeah, no, my mind is always like by the hour I can pretty much predicted and no and now it's like, no, we're not coming right now we need some time. I'm like, No you don't. You need to get these hormones out of my system because I'm really tired of being angry. For no reason. SoKanani 09:29well, the best part for me was what always seemed to do it was Oh, you're going on vacation. Now it's gonna happen. It's like, are you effing kidding me? Are you kidding? That seemed to be my trigger was Oh, you're going on vacation. You want to wear a swim suit? Courtney Hoover 09:47Just kidding. Gush. Kanani 09:51Yep, that was my life.Courtney Hoover 09:53Yeah, now we're an official witchcraft podcast. We're talking about our periods except for not being all like Oh, the periods this wonder time when I'm in touch with myself, I'm like, I hate everyone, including myself and I'm on my period. Kanani 10:04I eat cheeseburgers the size of my face. And then I funnel it down with gallons of chocolate. That's what I do. Well, I was very funny, because last time i started my periodg and when my husband came home I said, we're going to Dairy Queen tonight. And he said, okay, and he goes, what? I'm like I started hearing today? So we're gonna go get Dairy Queen, because that's when I do it. You know, I'm not like Konami that has to go every hour on the hour. I'm like, no, it's the day of I have suffered enough. And it is time to go indulge, some sugar. So yeah, my husband always seems to forget, he's like, this is a thing that we do. And I said, Yes. So anyway, we have a listener question. And "hello, I just wanted to reach out and say, Hi, thank you for your podcast. I feel like I'm in the process of waking up, which feels strange to say and have been struggling to name the experience. Before heading on my walk this morning, I randomly found your podcast and figured I'd download an episode. Ever since I was in my early teens I have been joined a bit to me. I have been drawn to witchy things but have always pulled back and stifled my curiosity, mostly out of fear from both social repercussions, I grew up Jewish, and the thought that I could accidentally stumble into something dark or evil. I remember when I was in high school, I bought a book of spells did one and then got so freaked out that God would punish me I returned to the next day. However, as I got older, I'll be 38 this year, I am trying to embrace what feels like my true self and stop resisting things that feel like home. So while I am sad to discover these resources during a lockdown, I am grateful for whatever led me to you. We will be moving to Ann Arbor in June to start my PhD another part of living as my honest self. Hopefully I can find some people in Michigan with which to connect. Anyway thank you again and I look forward to working my way through your episodes. I also ordered a Drawing Down the Moon for so thank you for that recommendation." Well, listener you are most welcome and congratulations on your move and your PhD program. Actually Michigan has got a real really wonderful community around magic and witchcraft. So I would recommend you look up the Detroit conjurer festival, as well as the Boston Tea Room. Boston Tea Room is in Detroit. I know Detroit and Ann Arbor, there's a bit of a difference there. But it may be worth the drive. But the Boston Tea Room has a lot of really wonderful classes and other resources for you. So make sure you check them out. And not quite next door short plane ride, do look up Paganicon, which happens in Minneapolis in September, I will be teaching there. And that would be a great place to connect with some other people also just look on Facebook and do some searches for Ann Arbor pagan groups and start going to open events and you'll find something. But it's so interesting, this question about the thought of accidentally stumbling into something dark or evil. And, you know, honestly, that was a fear that I had. Hilary 12:57Yeah, same. Kanani 12:59100%Courtney Hoover 12:59Yeah. Hilary in you and I had some scary moments in high school where we were messing around with things we didn't understand. And but I think it's, it's more complicated than that sometimes you do, you are opening doors and you don't know what's on the other side. And sometimes something kind of icky can come through. Hilary 13:17Sure but I also think that doesn't make it inherently evil.Courtney Hoover 13:21No, but what I was going to say is that I think people's lives can get can get up ended by magic when they first started. And really, that is spirit often trying to make some order out of what was already chaos, that kind of chaos you were used to. And if you let it if you let it happen, you find yourself stronger on the other side, a lot of people will sometimes go into magic start doing things they don't like what's happening in their lives. They assume that they're being cursed or you're, you know, something's backfiring and they pull back and they don't go through it. And by then there's usually some energetic imbalances that have to get rectified. I think that's where this where this reputation of something evil comes in. Is there evil in the world? Yes, absolutely. Is there evil and magic, you know, I feel like sometimes the Abrahamic religions open that door more than any of the earth base religions do, because they're the ones that created or really put a lot of faith into these kind of evil demonic forces. And therefore, those evil demonic forces kind of tend to circle around those faiths and probably gonna get into so much trouble for saying this. But you know, that's, they're the ones that are feeding those beings because of their fears and their their belief. Once you step out of that, you find that people don't believe in that as much and so those beings just don't have any food to feed on.Hilary 14:48Well, and I feel like there is a difference between something that provides like a negative presence or a negative energy. There's a difference between that and like something that is Evil or like, you know, that is so malicious. You know, I think that, you know, have I in the time that I've been involved in witchcraft or magick felt things that made me uncomfortable, yes for sure. Did I feel ever like truly in danger with that? Not really. You know, did I didn't make me I mean, especially when you're exploring, you're not really sure what it is. Yeah, there there are moments that I mean, I know you and I share that were quite scary. But I think it was more a fear of like, what the hell is this rather than something that was bad, you know, awful, you know?Courtney Hoover 15:38Well, we did tap into some pretty ugly stuff in my old house. Hilary 15:41I mean, I think it was but again, I never felt like it was like, demonic or like, or whatever that means, you know, I felt like it was it was energy that was intense and definitely not positive energy and certainly an entity that was felt pretty bad and it was really scary. But I think if I knew more, if we knew more, then if we knew what we knew now then, like, would we have been quite as scared? I don't know.Courtney Hoover 16:13Well, also, when you're younger, or your energies are more intense, you feel things a lot more like, I know my feeling I could get the kind of anger I could experience when I was 16 years old. I it's very hard for me to get that angry now.Hilary 16:26True. And the other thing that popped up for me, too, was, you know, when I read that question was, you know, even though that, you know, that energy was, I mean, even if you come across an energy or an entity or whatever, that is negative or that you feel is pretty, pretty bad or pretty intense. I mean, I've had a couple experiences, but you know, it's not like that experience, then it's like, you're gonna be sucked in forever. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not like, you go into this dark side that you can never get out of, in my opinion. Um, I think you have to be cautious. And I think it's important to educate, educate yourself and make sure you know what you're doing and also have the resources or people or resources to reach out to if you get in a little over your head. But, but I certainly don't feel like it's a, you know that it's evil or demonic, you know, in it, just the mere fact of practicing witchcraft.Kanani 17:26I struggled with that for a very, very, very long time, probably a lot longer than, I don't want to say that I should have, but that would probably a lot longer than most people would would realize or think would be kind of how long it would take. For the longest time. I had everything in my house and did everything except for wear a pentacle or have a pentacle and I brough a pentacle into my house on my altar, probably, let's say 15 years ago, and then it took probably another five to seven before I would wear one. And it's something that I had to deal with. Because even though it was something I did, it was part of me it was part of my practice. It's part of what I did. It took a really long time for me to slough off all of those feelings of things that I had been kind of indoctrinated into believing. And to the point that I didn't, I was no longer having to remind myself that what I was doing was okay. It was just intrinsically now something I did, and it's not something I questioned anymore, but I was someone who sought religion and so my first initial experiences dealt mainly in Christianity which all said that, that witchcraft and all of this is and spirits is all negative and unnatural and dark and evil. And so I had to kind of just keep pushing through that. So as long as what you're doing, and she kind of makes she made a comment about it makes her feel at home. As long as those are the feelings, it's bringing you you're not feeling uncomfortable, you're not feeling like you're getting into things that are, are, you know, upsetting to you or don't feel, you know, super comfortable. Then as long as you're doing that and you realize that good is coming to you and this is the path you want and embracing that. Then allow yourself that space to know that there's a lot of people that struggled with that you're not alone in that. It's okay to feel that way. You're doing something that you were indoctrinated against, possibly, I'm assuming, but there's a good chance. I'm so so behind yourself and don't worry so much and try and not, you know, because I think I'll especially in the beginning, there's a lot of the, should I just not do this because it makes me uncomfortable or should I just not do this because I just don't know or, you know, there's, there's a fear behind it. And as long as it is what you want, then just know that a lot of us have that, and kind of worked through that. And that's a total normal part of the process. If you're coming from something where you were told that this was unacceptable. Some people you know, when they were younger, either had no background, so it was much easier for them to jump into, because they weren't told that this was wrong, you know, but there's others that that's not the case. And so it was a little bit harder to kind of get used to that. And so, you know, we all come about this differently. And as long as this is what you want and you choose and and you're comfortable doing what you're doing. Just keep your head up and know that this is a great path and you're gonna you're gonna learn so much and get so much out of it.Courtney Hoover 21:12Yeah, and also don't let anybody make you feel bad if you're still working through nerves about this. sometimes witches can get a little haughty like ha ha ha, that's silly. You feel that way? No, it's not silly. Yeah, don't let anybody make you feel that way and also putting that call out to other witches be very sensitive when you come across someone who's still working through this stuff because it's it is a real fear and it's something that is worked through through nurture and not just telling them to get over it or that it's silly or flipant these are these are childhood fears that take a lot of things to work through. So I am super excited today because we have Paige Vanderbeck the host of the Fat Feminist Witch podcast which is one of my favorite witchcraft podcasts and I know a lot of our listeners enjoying it too so we are very excited to finally get Paige on the show we've been wanting to have her for a long time. And if you're not familiar with Paige she has been the host of The Fat Feminist Witch Podcast since 2015, but rode into witchcraft on the Wiccan wave of the 90s. Despite being a total Capricorn, she’s always entertained the mystical and unbelievable and has made the search for it her life’s purpose. She’s written and spoken about modern witchcraft, fat acceptance, and feminism on her own website, Medium, Revelist, The Dot, Flare; and on the New World Witchery, Magick and Mediums, Cannabis Act, and Hippie Witch podcasts. She trained as a doula with toLabor in NYC, studied history and humanities at Douglas College in British Columbia, and graduated from the Tourism and Travel program at St. Clair College in Ontario. Paige lives in Windsor, Ontario, Canada with her cat Clover, a betta named Fish, and a house full of ghosts. Visit her online at I just love this description so much. Paige welcome to That Witch Life Podcast are you going to include us on your list of podcasts when we're done maybe?Paige 23:14yeah next time I write a book it's just gonna be like this huge list and then if they let me get away with it I'll start doing itCourtney Hoover 23:21a whole book "my time on that which live podcasts by Paige, Fat Femenist Witch"Paige 23:27Whole back chapter just... Courtney Hoover 23:31I feel Konami's eyes rolling I psychically connected to Kanani's eye rolling and I'm getting a buzz right now.Kanani 23:36Oh, no, I think all books should be written about me. I mean the whole podcast is bit excessive but me. I mean, that's just gold.Courtney Hoover 23:47But the thing is you wouldn't even read it. Paige I dedicated a book to Kanani that I wrote and published She still hasn't read it It is true. Well, I've read, that's not true I read my dedication.Paige 23:58I was just gonna say you read the dedication Right?Kanani 24:01 100%Paige 24:01Well then. I mean, you really did at least the very least so I don't know.Kanani 24:05I like page we get along we understand. Yeah, we get each other Paige 24:07Where you guys at?Hilary 24:14Portland Oregon. Paige 24:15That's not that far. I mean, a few days but it's not that far.Courtney Hoover 24:20Maybe when we do our Sasquatch tour we'll just go further north and we'll just keep going. Kanani 24:25Oh, that'd be so funPaige 24:27I would actually come to the Pacific Northwest to join a Sasquatch tour, just sayin'Hilary 24:33I mean we arrange thatCourtney Hoover 24:34When I lived in like Vancouver BC like no one there gave a shit about the fact that they are from the same part of the planet as Bigfoot. And I was like, what's the point of living here if you don't, you know, enjoy your local mythology. no one would go on a Bigfoot hunt with me. No one.Kanani 24:50That's ridiculous, Courtney Hoover 24:51You know what? So I guess the Christians would call it a come to Jesus. I had to come to Sasquatch moment when I was in Washington this past year because I was sitting around With a bunch of people who are telling their Sasquatch sighting stories, and I'm sitting here and growing up in Oregon, whenever I go to a different part of the country, that's like the first thing out of my mouth. Yes, I'm from Oregon. No, I believe in Bigfoot, because that was just the assumption that they had that we were all putting up Bigfoot cams in our backyard. So I, you know, I found myself getting like...., Wait, you didn't have one in your back yard?. I was just gonna say, wait a minute are breaking my heart telling you that there's no big foot cams in everyone's backyard. There's ours just kind of like, looks more like a birdhouse so we were able to get away with it. So yeah, but then Anyway, there was this, um, I had this moment where I'm sitting here rolling my eyes at the Bigfoot hunters around me. But then I thought about it and something just said I needed to just sit my arrogant ass down. Because if I had been in Ireland, and hearing stories from farmers about, you know, sightings of the fair folk I'm going to believe every word not a question. Not not like where's your proof? Oh my God, have you had your head examined What the hell's wrong with you? Not a question and say. Yep, I believe everything they said that's all true. So why was I going to throw away the myths of my own region? So it's almost as though spirit heard me say it because yeah right for that I heard an interview with a Native American woman about you know the about the legends of Sasquatch and how they have been part of the culture of this region for thousands of yearsHilary 26:32You're a hater that's why you didn't believe it? Paige 26:35That's right.Courtney Hoover 26:36Exactly. So I was like, Oh, you know what? because I think if someone says to me, yes, this is an actual mammal, who is out in the woods, and you know, is seven feet tall and all of that, I'd say probably not. But if you say that it may be a manifestation of a spirit form of like a genius loci that I would believe.Paige 26:57Right? Like as soon as you're like, you know It's the only way to explain it is it's like, you know, ancient spiritual magic. I'm like, Oh, that makes perfect sense. Like, of course it's there. yeah, as far as I'm concerned, my belief in like things like Sasquatch is a lot like aliens. It's just like it's statistically impossible that I'm the smartest person in the world. There's no way I could possibly know for sure. So I might as well just have some fun in it and believe in some aliens and Sasquatch. Who knows right, keep an open mind.Kanani 27:32So I'm going to break out my Sasquatch Field Guide. Because I have one that dicusses Identifying, tracking, inciting North America's reliced hominoid.Paige 27:48Oh myKanani 27:50how to identify them, their nutrients, their fields mark. He's a quadruped by the way. I am all down for Sasquatch talks. I am a Pacific Northwest girl. It is what we do Paige 28:06Sasquatch time. Yeah. You know what I just, I'm not disappointed. I'm already not disappointed. I'm here.Hilary 28:18(Screaming goat noise)Courtney Hoover 28:19The goatKanani 28:22That's what they use when I go on my tangents so it's...Hilary 28:26True, Kanani will say something we're like I don't even know what to say the only appropriate response is a screaming goat.Paige 28:32It just like it really gets your attention.Hilary 28:40That's what I use right before I have to turn the van around with these two.Paige 28:45I'm gonna turn this van around. Yeah.Hilary 28:49Every episodePaige 28:50Excellent. That's excellent.Courtney Hoover 28:53All right. So here we go. So Paige, the question we asked all our guests when they first come on That Witch Life Podcast, how did you know that you were a witch?Paige 29:04You know, I feel like it happened multiple different times throughout my life. But it definitely started the same way it does with everyone is I was just like a really weird kid. And it happens a lot. I was just, you know, I was very in tune with nature and I was very close with animals and I was not super close with other people. I loved books, and I love reading and I loved books about you know, fantasy. And in the 90s when you start to look up witches on what began as the internet. Wicca and like real witchcraft are some of the first things that came up. So when my mom told me to like, check it out, some people are real witches in real life. From there on, it was just like, I never looked back. Even times when I wasn't practicing, it was always just part of who I was after that.Courtney Hoover 29:57So that is really remarkable that you're mom encouraged you to look into this. Paige 30:03Yeah, that's, I've realized, as I, as I got older, I've realized that I'm pretty fortunate there. My parents and I don't always have like, you know, the perfect relationship. But when I was a kid, one thing they were really cool about with all three of us was, if we ever wanted to explore any sort of like, religious, anything, they were supportive of that, like, yeah, you can totally check that out. You can totally ask questions. They didn't have any religion that we needed to adhere to. So me and my siblings all ended up kind of with something different. And I just happened to be the witchy, one of the three of us, I guess.Hilary 30:39That's amazing. Paige 30:41Yeah, they were they were pretty cool about that. And I think it's just because they were also kind of curious of things outside of Catholicism. Right?Courtney Hoover 30:50Right. Exactly. So yeah. So another question I have is, tell us a little bit about what your witchcraft practice looks like. And you talked a little bit about how you were in Wicca for a while was there a moment when Wicca didn't fit anymore? Does it still fit for you? What is your witchcraft look like? Now perhaps in comparison to when you started,Paige 31:11I think Wicca still seemed like, it was the path for me until I was out of high school and I was, I was an adult on my own doing my own thing. And Wicca just seemed to, you know, have limitations where I wanted to continue to explore, you know, I was older, I could check things out more I could actually meet other people that were not just Wiccan because times had changed. And from there was just time to kind of branch out. I met people when I was about 22 and instead of, you know, being Wiccan, they were Pagan, and it was just a way more open label and I was like, Okay, this feels a lot more comfortable for me. And then from there, it just kind of kept changing until witch was the only thing left like I just kept bumping things out of the the label until witch was the only thing there.Hilary 32:05I love that.Kanani 32:06That sounds familiar.Hilary 32:09That totally sounds familiar.Paige 32:10You know, when I lived in the Pacific Northwest, I got really interested in Druids, because there's a lot out there because there's a lot of beautiful forests and trees. You know, it's a thing you guys have.Kanani 32:20Oh, totally. Paige 32:22And so when I was there, I started like getting really interested in Druids, but you guys are like, way too. well, "you guys" as in the druids who are just way too, like chill and quiet for me. I think they're so great. And I love trees. But I was like, This is too mellow of like a spiritual path for me. I'm sorry, guys. But that was like every when I change when I move locations, I noticed that things changed just a little bit. Courtney Hoover 32:48So yeah, things mean within the practice of druidism or within your own witchcraft.Paige 32:54Like the things that I start to explore, especially when I got into a new environment, it was Everything here just feels, you know, slightly different. It just feels slightly different. And then the cultures of the different people that live there are slightly different. So there were a lot more like Celtic people where I lived in Vancouver, I guess then there are where I live now. And it just kind of made more sense to explore because I had that nature around me and the possibilities there. So my practice kind of explored Druids or druidry. And then when I moved back to where I live now in Ontario, it kind of went back to whatever it is now.Whatever you would describe it as. Courtney Hoover 33:33Yeah, I think that that's, that seems like, that's where the more like the contemporary or the current trend with witchcraft is going is the I don't know what you call it, but Witch is the way to go. Paige 33:47Yeah. Courtney Hoover 33:49I mean, there certainly are a lot of traditions that are going on very, very strong. And that's not to deny them or undermine them, but it's also I feel like there's an even greater movement right now of the witch without a label. Paige 34:01Yeah. Kanani 34:01Oh, 100% Courtney Hoover 34:03Yeah. I mean, it's like everything else witches are really kind of just going through a, like a transition. They're really having a time right now.Hilary 34:11For sure. And I mean, we've talked about this on the podcast before, but like, for me that was, it was this like I, I kept looking into different pathways and was like, Oh, I don't know, I don't know. And I was interested in them, but it didn't feel it didn't click. And it wasn't really until I just recognized that I could go on my own and, and take the things that I had learned and make my own practice that I was like, Oh, wait, no, this is where I'm supposed to be. Paige 34:40Yeah. Hilary 34:40And you know that it certainly draws in practices or elements or rituals from many different areas or different types of practice, but that for me, and it's why I was like, No, no, I'm not like I don't really do it it's just I don't... it's why I didn't know what to call it for so long, because I was like, Well, I don't really do that over there. And I don't really do that over here. So I really don't know what I do. I guess I'll just say I'm an atheist and keep doing what I'm doing. hahahaPaige 35:13Yeah, something that doesn't make people ask a lot of questions.Kanani 35:16Well, what's funny is so like, as people understand the, the term Christianity like, embodies so many different, you know, Presbyterian and, and Baptist and like all these different kinds of, you know, quote, unquote, Christians, and then there's paganism which embodies, you know, so many different religions. And what's funny to me is how, "Witch" has now kind of become similar, where it's, it's an umbrella term now. And so just because someone tells calls you a witch, you don't necessarily know what that means. You know what I mean? Like you And then be like, oh, then I know what you do. Like, yeah, right, no kind of a little bit, but you have no idea really like, it doesn't necessarily paint a picture of who that person is or what they believe. Because it's such an umbrella term now.Paige 36:15It's so individualistic. Like, it's just every Witch I talked to does things a little bit differently, just every single which does it differently. And even the ones that, like, found witchcraft around the same time as me, you know, just because of where they lived, or the witches that they met, or whatever it was, the books that they ended up reading other, you know, that were different than mine, their practice might look completely different. And it's just like, it's really, really neat. It's really cool.Kanani 36:43That is that one of my favorite things.Paige 36:46Yeah, it's really interesting like it. I find when it comes to witchcraft, I don't get sick of talking about it with people because there's always it's always different.Hilary 36:55We had so different for each individual person, even within more structured practices, it's different for everyone, you know, like, Paige 37:02yeah, absolutely. Even in the traditions, I mean, they follow the same steps, I guess, but they still have their own, like individual experiences and feelings that make their practice or their, their stories just their own. It's really cool.Kanani 37:19I think that's one of the reasons why, as a practice, it breeds inclusivity. Yeah, because there isn't an...there is not an automatic expectation that you do X, Y, and Z. And so you can come in, and not necessarily feel like you're not doing it right. Or you're discluded because everybody's different.Courtney Hoover 37:48Right? Well, I'm gonna jump in on that Konami a little bit because I think that what you're experiencing maybe a little more true to the community that we have out here, but in the different witchcraft communities that I've moved through around the country. That's not always the case. They can be judgmental I wouldn't even say judgmental so much as orthodox and I know that this this, I've come across this a lot with people when they say, Okay, I know I'm a Witch, so the next step is that I joined a coven. And I said, Well, it could be you know, my you know, but isn't it doesn't mean you have to join a coven. A coven work may be a really great path for you and so I hope you find one but if you you know there there may not be a you may not be it...Coven life may not be the right fit for you or they're the not the right one.Paige 38:34Or you might not be able to find oneCourtney Hoover 38:36Right yeah. So it's, it's real is a lot of that out there of the sense of, of there's a formula I have to follow and to be honest, it's can be very frightening for people to hear that you don't have to follow a formula then there's a sense of what's the What am I doing? Am I just floundering and in those things in that can be really challenging?Paige 38:57Yeah, I often I feel pretty grateful that Wicca was so popular when it was because those those limitations that I ended up, you know, not liking so much at the end, were very helpful in the beginning. You know, just because they had it there was that structure, right, there was instructions to follow. And then once I'm used to following the instructions, I go off and do my own thing. And so when people ask me now, you know, a lot of the and I don't know if this still happens, but a lot of the, you know, books I find are very Wiccan focused, or they just don't fit my beliefs. And I'm like, you know, read them anyways. Because a lot of that methodology and stuff is just still very useful. It works for them, it might work for you, you just have to, you know, be a little open minded and be willing to put your own spin on it later, once you're familiar with it.Courtney Hoover 39:51Because the freedom with this is that you can follow your heart and you can work with what's good for you. The challenge is, is that when you run into a block Or you get nervous or you feel a little lost. You can't turn to somebody in the tradition and say now what?Hilary 40:07Yeah, it's kinda like figure it out by yourself my friend like... Kanani 40:12You wanna post your phone number Courtney? because what I do is called Courtney. So maybe we could have our listeners just call Courtney. Hilary 40:19Oh my god.Kanani 40:20So worked for me for like 25 years.Courtney Hoover 40:26hahahaa Kanani calls me. So this happened. Now what? I'm like, well try this. No, I want to do that. Okay. How about this? No, not gonna do that. Have you tried this? Well, I thought about trying that. Why didn't you because they want to do that. SoKanani 40:41That sounds right, that sounds like that sounds like a real tape recording of our conversation. Actually, I'm not sure were recording me while I speak.?Paige 40:50Yeah, she's just reading the transcript now.Courtney Hoover 40:53Paige a question for you is what do you do as a non traditional witch when you when you get stuck? Or when you feel blocked? Or who do or what do you do to try to get past that?Paige 41:05Wow, you know what that's actually like a really timely question because I've really been like feeling like that lately just because you know, everything's, everything's wild right now. And I've been struggling with it just just a little bit. And I've been feeling so stuck that I keep trying to just focus on one thing and so far, that's been the thing that works. So like, this week, I started a little project where I was going to like pick a crystal and I was going to stick with it for the week and really, like actually try to work with it like everyday, spend some time and like, learn about how people use this crystal and try it for myself. And I've actually been sticking to that because it's like just a little bit that I can do. And same with like tarot cards, it's like just pull one in the morning, just pull one and then spend as much time as you want, hanging out with the card and so far that's been really like it's starting to add up But for the most part I've been doing so little in terms of what feels like witchcraft. I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. It's like, I go to like light a candle. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like lighting a candle and I'm doing a little spell. And then next thing, you know, I'm just Lighting a candle. And I don't really know if it's witchy or not, but it feels good to kind of keep trying. I'm hoping eventually I'll be able to really connect a little bit more without getting sidetracked.Hilary 42:33I think. I think that's just the product of what's going on right now. I mean, I certainly have found that where it's like, my ability to focus it's, you know, I think, yeah, it's, we like to think oh, we have all this time. Yeah, we do, technically, but it's like not it's not quality time. It's like, stressful and we're all nervous and it is scary. And so I think that we underestimate like how much that taxes us energetically. Paige 43:05Yeah. Hilary 43:05And you know, and then we end up being in a scenario where we're like trying to trying to think of something or trying to focus on something or trying to put intentions into something. I did that earlier today. And I was like, wait, what am I doing?Paige 43:19Yeah, and you know, focus is exactly the right word. That's exactly what I feel like. My focus is just very, very short lately.Hilary 43:27Yeah,Kanani 43:29I think that that's exactly like you just said, Hilary, where it's so much of our energy right now is just being utilized towards just coping, and getting through the day, that then when you try and are like pulling out energy for something else, it's kind of like, yeah, we're tapped right now. We're already busy. I know. You think we're not busy, but we're kind of busy. SoPaige 43:57You know another like weird thing I've noticed when it comes to magic is like, I think, I don't know. It sounds like such a weird thing to say out loud. But I think like, Oh, I want to do a little spell or I want to do a ritual or something and I start to think of, you know, something, some purpose for these spells or rituals. And because life has kind of like, screeched to a halt here, it's like, wait, what do I do? I don't want to you know, do any of that classic stuff. I'm not gonna attract love because I can't go out on a date and meet a stranger. You know, I'm not gonna work on attracting money because I can't go out and find a job. It's just little things like that, like, with the rest of like life, stopping I almost feel like there's no, I don't know, like, I don't want to say there's no purpose to magic, but there's no discernible purpose that I can find right now. No, like material purpose, and I'm struggling to find something else there. Also, I just I feel, I don't know. I just feel like it's too hard for me to, like, tell people what to do with magic. It's like we need magic more than ever, you know, where we're struggling and I'm like, Yeah, but like for what? it's like, let's, let's find something we can do with it. So like I said, I've been trying to like focus on like one thing at a time. And just trying to, like keep my focus and like make a connection with that item or with that idea. I'm doing a lot of journaling. That's one thing that's nice about being by yourself is that you feel this need to say things and writing them out just really really helps.Kanani 45:32I am so terrified at the notion of writing down all the crazy that happens in my head.Paige 45:38Oh, yeah, you know what? I don't write down some of the really crazy stuff because I don't want anyone to ever find itKanani 45:44You can email that to me though, I will hundred percent I will read that and I will not you know. And with mine I'll be like you know what, this is what I thought and you'll be like, wow, I'm not talking to her anymore.Hilary 45:56Well, like one nice thing or one thing that I've done before and it came out of kind of like some creative harnessing that I did at some point was just to do. It actually is part of The Artists Way, which is a kind of like creative rehab book. And I, what I had done was is called morning pages, which is just like stream of conscious writing in the morning before you get before you're like,Courtney Hoover 46:20Yes it's very good.Hilary 46:23It's super good. And the nice thing about it is there are times when I go back through that, but there are times that I did burn that. It's like, sometimes, sometimes, you know, there's like keeping a journal or looking back. But I also think sometimes when you just need to get some stuff out of your brain, it doesn't necessarily have to be something that you keep or hold on to. I mean, there have been times where I've been going through really going through a really rough time and just been like I have to brain purge like there's so much going on in my head. And there's something about putting that down on paper and then burning it that it's like You're like, okay, it's out and now I'm letting it go. Courtney Hoover 47:02Yeah.47:03That actually sounds like a great idea for like, like right now like this. I'm starting to feel like I don't know, I'm starting to feel like I'm coming up out of this, like, my initial shock over the whole pandemic situation plus moving. So I feel like I'm coming up out of this initial shock and I think maybe like writing out just kind of all of that and burning it and just getting rid of it might be like a really good idea for right now likeKanani 47:28That could be really cathartic.Paige 47:30Yeah, and like really lightening it up and just getting it out.Courtney Hoover 47:33When also it gives you the, the courage to write something down with the knowing No one's going to see this because I'm going to burn it. So you just write it down, and then worry about and so for those who are not familiar with the stream of conscious writing, is that the first thing you do when you get up in the morning like before you go to the bathroom, take your morning shit, do that kind of thing. Before you make your breakfast before you check your phone. Big, very, very important before you check your phone or get plugged in is you just sit down And write whatever comes to your head without like trying to say, I feel this this morning. So it may not mean the words may not make any sense.Paige 48:07You know, and I think this is I just had like a tiny little like epiphany. I think this is part of like something about my practice that's changing and about witchcraft that I think is changing is that it's becoming much more tied in like, personal development than I feel like it ever was. and personal development like kind of a buzzword, but we use our witchcraft and our spirituality to do things like work through emotional situations or work through trauma or to help us express ourselves. You know, we do a lot more of this kind of non tangible stuff with witchcraft. And my background was always in, you know, Wicca, which has these very specific purposes for each of your spells. And I'm starting to find that right now when there is no specific purpose, there still needs to be something that you can or there still is something that you can work your Spirituality into, or that can combine with your spirituality. Like I'm just finding that that's way more the direction of witchcraft in general and of my practice, that's the direction it needs to take from this point.Courtney Hoover 49:15So we also had a listener question I'd like us to explore cool. And yeah, we would like to have our guests help us unwind these. They're are always really, really good and make us think some some deep stuff. And this one, I believe, came from a younger listener. I'm really new to magic. I just learned about it in a book my mom downloaded on Audible. I started researching different types and I'm interested in spiritual magic. On all the podcasts I listen to, they talk about how they can communicate with spirits, and how anyone can do it if they learn, but they never explain how to learn. I know it's not an overnight thing. But could you help me with the basics? Paige 49:55You know, that's such a cool, that's such a cool question. I feel like so many people who are new are kind of afraid to jump into something like I want to talk to spirits. That's so interesting. It's hard to practice, right? Because you don't know if you're, if you're successful or not, you don't really have that, that gauge. I think the best way to start is to start with things like learning from other people who speak with spirits, or like getting a book of a medium that tells the story of their practice or their life or how it got started. start listening to some of the ways that mediums or people who talk to spirits, the sensations that they got when they started, like I remember because everybody's different, right?Hilary 50:40Yeah, for surePaige 50:41Yeah, everybody has a different experience. So some people are like, a lot of people will have a similar experience. Like I hear this kind of fuzzy sound in my ears and it gets louder and louder and louder but not everybody has something like that. It might be something that they you know, did themselves that started the entire process or some other sensation they had, I think, coolest way to start.Hilary 51:04I think it's personal. You know, I think, yeah, one of the things that I would say is, is good to think about is that it's not going to be like, one day, some spirit just walks up to you and is like, yo, Hi, how's it going? I just wanted to have a conversation. I mean, like, I feel like when I first felt spirits presence, it's changed as I became more spiritually open, I think to that. But I I always suggest that it's not like you're having a conversation necessarily with a human. I mean, I think probably some people do experience that. But for sure, I don't think that I think that being open to what you feel, if you notice that something... it could be in your dreams. It could be something you smell that that's, that's familiar, it could be a feeling. It could be a visual, it could be an act like an auditory experience. So I think allowing yourself to be more aware of what's around you, in the sense that like you paying, it's paying close attention to what you feel and how that varies when you're in different scenarios. There's not like, Okay, well, this is what you do. And then you dial this number, and then there's a person there, you know, there's a spirit talk to you. And I certainly think that there's lots of people that don't have just like normal, like it's a day to day conversation with a human, that they communicate with spirits. So yeah, it is a hard question.Paige 52:31It's a hard question, because it's so individual. I think also just kind of exploring, like you mentioned dreams. And that's such a good point, because you talk to a lot of people who are like, experienced psychics, and they're like, yeah, I had really serious dreams that I never really paid attention to. And when I did, that's when I started to notice other things around me. So finding out all of those little individual ways that are psychic gifts kind of come through. There's a book by it's Ellen Dugan, it's The Natural Psychic. And in it, she has little like exercises to kind of practice the different types of psychic skills and kind of explore, you know, how you hear things or how you see things, if any of those things are really there or not, or if other people hear them. And I think all of that is really cool, really helpful. But mostly, I think it's just about kind of trusting and recognizing your, like different feelings and vibes and stuff like that, you know, if you hold old items and you, you get strong emotions, from what from that that is a way of communicating possibly with the dead. So pay attention to little things like that.Kanani 53:46I think people get confused with the whole idea of quote, unquote, seeing and, quote, unquote hearing, right, yeah, they think they're going to physically see something like I see my dresser in my room.Paige 54:00YeahKanani 54:02And so I think in the end, and to be honest, I don't think that that's something that's necessarily explained well. And so when I hear anything next to them the way they you know, see a chair, they go, Oh, well, I can't see things. And so I think that's part of it, too, is to understand that you're not necessarily going to physically see something with your eyes, the way that you would see something that's sitting in the room, sometimes you do, and it's that clear, but a lot of times it's not.Paige 54:36Yeah, and I mean, people have, you know, those next level skills like some people are the lady from medium or whatever, right? They're, they're really interesting and they have this really strong psychic sense or they have really amazing seances and sometimes you can talk to those people, but sometimes just kind of watching what they do. You can see small little things That kind of add up to the whole picture. like everybody's so different. Yeah. But not everybody's gonna get it that clear. And that's okay too.Courtney Hoover 55:09And I think it's also an understanding that it's not about learning a language. It's a developing a language with the spirit. So it's not like it's happening and you don't understand is that that language needs to be built when it comes to talking with the spirits, but I say this cautiously because I don't want people to think that I'm saying spirits or imaginary friends, because I do not think that. I do think though, a way to give yourself permission to talk to the spirits is remind youself if you had an imaginary friend as a child, remembering what that feeling was like to talk to them. Right, and, and also to start really being observant in what's happening around you observing the animals, observing weather changes, observing feelings, those kinds of things. And a lot of times people first say, Well, how do I know if this is a spirit message Or not? start by just saying maybe it is. Paige 56:03Yeah, you don't know. Courtney Hoover 56:05Yeah, don't try to confirm that it is that takes a very long time. I feel like only now in my witchcraft journey, do I feel comfortable enough in saying, Okay, that was a message. I'm not entirely i'm not i'm never going to be 100% sure until I get a confirmation. But I'll give an example in that I had a friend passed away about a week ago. And yeah, it was pretty sad. And the day that I got the news of her death, I was out walking my dog in this enormous black vulture flew out of the bushes and sat in a tree above my head, and my blood just went cold. And I'm not afraid of vultures, and I see them a lot because we're out in the country and there's a lot of rabbits and rats and things that the vultures are feasting on. But there was something about that vulture being that close to me and flying from the ground up over my head, that I knew I was about to lose somebody and that , um there are there there are times when I see something, and go Oh I hope that's not a bad sign. And it turns out it didn't happen. But over time, by leaning into that, maybe instead of saying yes it is or No, it isn't, nor am I doing this wrong, I'm saying maybe, then you start to become more in tune for what it is. And for me, that was clear as a bell that I was about to lose someone. And I got the word A few hours later, actually, one of my priestesses has called me and said, we are, I know what your vulture was about.Paige 56:28Oh I'm sorry See, and that's such a such that's such a clear message. It's almost a blessing to get a message that clear because oftentimes, they're not. And it's an unfortunate message, of course, but I think a lot of people have moments like that just you know, your average non witch citizen, totally has moments like that where they have these like, powerful emotional responses or like gut feelings and they're just not told to pay attention to it or to think of it is real. You know, we're we're taught to kind of dismiss that that's just, you know, that's your your lizard brain or whatever. But like, paying attention to that stuff is a big part of being in tune with the world around you, you know, that's a natural sensation that we all just get from being a human being on this planet. It's, we should encourage each other to pay more attention to those spooky vibes in the gut feelings and things like that. Courtney Hoover 58:36Yeah, for sure. So page, a definitely able to switch gears on us again, we've been all over the place today is just going to keep going that way. I think I want to give some time for you to tell us all about this wonderful new book that you have coming out. I have not had it for long, so I haven't had a chance to dig deep into it. But I can already tell that it's just going to be a wonderful guide for a lot of people and it's called Green Witchcraft: A Practical Guide to Discovering the Magic of Plants, Herbs, Crystals and Beyond. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Ah, thanks. Yeah, I am. Oh man, I can't believe it came out at the end of February and it's been so exciting. This book is all about, it's kind of a what it really is. I love how self explanatory the title is, it really is a practical guide. But I tried to write something that really would appeal to almost anyone who is interested in exploring, you know, natural witchcraft, and is looking for a way that they can explore it so that they can add to it and make it their own. You know, we all we were talking about how we had to make a practice our own and throughout the book, I was trying to give people the basics and give people the little bit of direction so that they could take it wherever they wanted. And so far, a lot of the response I'm getting is saying those things like it fits in with whatever it is that they're doing. So I talk about connecting with nature ways that you can start to feel things like feelings or energy from a spiritual perspective, ways that you can connect with your natural environment. Some meditations you can do with the moon and with the nature around you. And then I talk about different flowers, herbs, plants, trees, and crystals and stones, 15 for each of those, that you can use in your practice and ways to work with them into use their energy to bring magic into your life and to manifest a lot of the things that you want. Well, we have reached the conclusion of the show, we finish our episodes with a ritual we called as below so above speaking of things that are non traditional, and so we each mentioned something that we are letting go of and something we would like to welcome in and I call on Hilary to go first.Hilary 61:09Okay, so something that I want to let go of, and this is like something that I think I do in times of uncertainty. So, you know, in the midst of layoffs, I think you worry about finances and what that will look like and then focus on what you don't have. And I think that what I'm really trying to do through this is to let go of, I mean, it's okay to feel emotion or fear or whatever, that's a natural thing to feel but I'm really trying to let go of me focusing all of my attention on that so that I don't even see what opportunities are open right. So for me the letting go is letting go of the focus on what I don't have, what might not happen in the in the what ifs. Like, what if I do this? What if I don't Get a job in time? What if I don't have enough money? You know, like to really let go of focusing on what ifs because we don't know what those are. We don't, we're not able to predict what that's going to look like, necessarily. So, to let go of the what ifs and bring in things, the things that I can do, like really focusing on solid steps, and, and in practicality and being open to what might come in in the closure of one door in the opening of another.Courtney Hoover 62:33So mote it! Paige 62:33Can that be mine too? what might you know,Courtney Hoover 62:35I know I was gonna say that was really good.Paige 62:38Yeah, it was really good. Hilary 62:41Sometimes I say things that are okay. Not very oftenCourtney Hoover 62:48Kanani are you gonna go are you just gonna borrow Hilary'sKanani 62:51I'll let you go next, Courtney No I'm hosting. I get to decide.Paige 63:04I'll go.Courtney Hoover 63:05Ok you want to go, Paige, you can go, Paige 63:09oh my, okay. I wish I could just replay your answer. You know what I think I, I also really need to let go of like worrying about the things that I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen in the future. And even more so like even in the immediate future, like there's not a lot of planning that I can do. And I need to just kind of let go of feeling like I should just wait it out and I am just going to freak out about it now. And you know, wait until it's all over. I think I'm just going to let that fear go completely. And try to just come up with like a new, try to bring in something new every day or throughout the week that just makes it feel like things are working and makes it feel like things are moving along makes it feel like life is moving along out there. I'm gonna pay a little less attention to the news in general. AndKanani 64:07That's generally helpful.Paige 64:09Yeah, not going to read it like multiple times a day, not gonna, I'm going to let go of some of that fear and just kind of, I don't know, wait it out, hold on to some hope that things are gonna go well in the future.Hilary 64:21So mote thatKanani 64:22so I would want to I think I would want to let go of feeling like I still I keep telling myself but I still feel like I should be doing more than I'm doing. Know you feel like I have quote unquote, free time I should be doing more. I'm trying to let go of that feeling of you know, utilizing every moment of this time because I'm probably never going to have this much time because it's just too hard to focus to accomplish things. So I think you know, I'm going to try you know, let go of that feeling of, you know, I should be making myself busy, I would like to bring in a little bit more, I think fun, try and find things that I enjoy. And try and find little projects that I can do that aren't necessarily like half to dos that are more just fun to dos. So I think that's what I'm gonna try and do is just kind of let go of that, that pressure and anxiety of I should be accomplishing a lot right now. And, and bring in just maybe do some things just because it's fun to do.Paige 65:41Yeah, that's a good one.Courtney Hoover 65:43Mine's pretty simple. I sometimes I feel like I'm kind of looking at this parallel universe with my life. And I'm thinking I should be over there doing that because I should have done all these other things. And so it's still more of that I should be doing something different. So I'm going to let that go and bringing in focusing on the now and hopefully also bringing in my missing period. So Paige, where can people find you in your work?Paige 66:08The best place to find me is and that has links to everything. But I am all across social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, you can find me as you know, The Fat Feminist which I'm usually the only one that comes up. And to find the podcast itself. You can do that at fatfeministwithch. or you can find it on Spotify, Apple podcasts pretty much anywhere. If it's not where you listen to podcasts. Just tell me and I will put it there.Courtney Hoover 66:36All right, awesome. Well, highly recommend everybody check out Paige's podcast and her book and follow her work because she is just exceptional. I'm really, really grateful that you came to be with us today. And now we know we have a doppelganger in Canada. So we're going to look and see all three of us,Kanani 66:52I know when the government stops trying to keep us from getting together. We're going to get together.Hilary 66:57I know once it's safe to be out And about then, then we'll definitely have to have to plan a trip to hang out.Paige 67:06Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what? Every, every American should come to Canada and just like hang out I bet it's very odd. Like, it's really weird to be in some place that is so much like your country like we're just like you guys, but everything is just slightly differentHilary 67:29a little on fireKanani 67:30Yeah, a little less of a dumpster fire happening.Courtney Hoover 67:34All right. Well, thanks, everybody for joining us today. Don't forget to subscribe rate and review us on your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to check out our Etsy store and follow us on all the social media platforms. We love you guys and we will see you in another bonus episode next week.(Exit Music) 67:55Join us on the first and third Monday of the month for Magickal tips and stories about living as a witch in today's world. Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be.Hilary 68:14Courtney. I have an idea. I think you should change Konami's ringtone to (screaming goat sound) so that every time she calls, you're preparedCourtney Hoover 68:26I used to have one for her there was a specialty ringtone and it went like this. You don't want to answer that phone, the woman whos' calling is nuts. You don't want to pick up her phone. She's crazy. She's psychoKanani 68:41Courtnye, I loved it. I used to call her when we were in the same room.Hilary 68:49Oh my godCourtney Hoover 68:49And then that phone broken. I had to get a new one. I lost the ringtone but yeah, that was it for a year. ................
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