Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC)



Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC)

Global Vampire Community Discussion (Public) – August 2, 2009

Attendees (171):

Acrophobic Pixie*

Adam Gallagher

Adara

Adya

Aeris Draconic

Ahram Durga

Aiden

Akesouku

Alec

Amalgam

Amber Psionic

Amikeco

Ancient Arcane

Angel

Annahksunamun

Anshar*

Antares

Archeron

Ariel

ArynChris

Asar Gangle

Ausar24

Azazel4

Bane

Belinda

Bloody Pink Lady*

Broken Angel

bwitchnvamp

Camazotz

CantBAngel

Cette

Chainbreaker

Christopher

Ciunas

Codec1

Cole St. Valentine*

Corpus

Cynsanity*

Damion

Dark Writer

Dark Element

DarkRev

Dis

Diss

Dlos

DoniGrey

Dorall

DRAKO

Dude Jay

Elo Pokie11

Elvakiel

Empath

Enraptured1

Ephraim

Equals Zer0

Eternitys Dark Rose

Etheros Twilight

Explosive Spear

Faralla

Firekitten

FoxDemon2

FuryFeva

Gabby*

Garth Knight

Ghirin Baby

Ghostheld (Lenxecan)

Guest1

Guest2

Guest3

Gwenyn

Hablion

Herrellia

Ibrambal

Icedrac

Insatiable Vampire

Ioshua

Isealdor*

Jackie Hippie

Jade Green

Jay Ray

Jehan

Julianna

Jyu Dragon

Kai*

Kalie

Kasada

Kiazishiru

Kiddo

Kire09

Kragy

Krev Zabijak

Kyuubi No Kitsune (Ren)

Lady Vittoria

LaSombra

Lexa

Lilith

Lono*

Lord Taka

Loxfin*

Lucien von Wolfe*

Malaclypse The Eldest

Malevolence

Marcus Noir*

Matthius

Melkia

Merticus*

Miizturi

MikeFuture*

Moonzblood

Morrivann

Morticia

Motoko Noir

Myrbree

Niaviro

Nightchild

NyteMuse*

Oomps

Parasina

Petit Mort

Pommedeson Sang

Purple Wolf

Qintown

Quiest

Rath

RaVeil

Ravena*

Raznkn

RevDevon

Sadora

Samilyn

Sanguinarius*

Sarasuomi

Sexygirl

Shadowsong

Sher

Shroud

Sinnamon

Slinky*

Sookie

SophieAnn

Sovereign*

SphynxCatVP*

Sqwearl

Succubus Sang

Synovess

Tha Oracle

Thanatos

The Crimson Crow

The Mistress

The Mystical Dark Phoenix

Typhoeus

Valens

Vampire Love

Vampyress TGirl

Vengerax

Viola Geek

Vyrdolak*

Wicked Maraya

Wifeyboo510

WingedWolf

Witchlitz

WolfLover54

Xajer

Xeurika*

Xylia Tzigane

YoungChild

Z1V2

Zhenechka

Zimmerchild*

Zodiana

Zoelle

* = VVC Member

Discussion Agenda:

I.  Discussion Information

Welcome to the second Global Vampire Community Discussion hosted by Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC).  The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available. Unlike the transcripts of our Public Agenda VVC Meetings, these Global Vampire Community Discussions are generally not edited for grammatical errors or the discussion restructured to align in sequence for question and answer responses.

Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda.  Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.

Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed.

II.  Background & Introduction

VVC was founded January 2006.

The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006

Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.

   

The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.

For more information please visit our web site at: 

We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.

III.  Discussion

a.  Discrimination: Have you or your friends and family been discriminated against or threatened because of your vampirism? If so, how have you coped and what advice would you give to others in similar situations? If not, what precautions do you take in your community involvement to prevent facing legal, professional, financial, or personal repercussions in your life?

b. Open Vampire Community Discussion: Any topic you’d like to bring up for discussion is welcome.

>

Voices of the Vampire Community

Global Vampire Community Discussion - August 2, 2009

Pre-Discussion Conversation Highlights

** We're at the 10 minute mark. If anyone would like to promote a web site, group, forum, book, twitter, other "vampire" related item please go ahead and do so. Feel free to exchange contact information and also post where you live for social networking purposes **

Well, if you're an energy feeder... *sighs*

Shoot I wish I was lucky enough to have a permanent sang donor.

* codec1 does as well....

Me too.

Sangi: Bunch of malls rats can't be that tasty, go to a concert instead.

I was at a critical mass event the other day, any psi-vamps would have been able to gorge themselves.

Zimmer, I'm ...not talking about psi feeding :P

Sangi: I know, I'm just being funny.

Well... How can we get out to more people for more donors?

Is it possible that there are donors? But houses/covens are taking them all?

Okay, other question, still about donors: what do you vamps want to know about us?

I don't think they are taking them all.

I’ve never had a problem finding donors.

Diss... I don't generalize donors any more than I would vamps.

I think in some cases donors are just as likely to hide in the community as vamps for many of the same reasons

Actually, I have a donor question in general... what are good things for donors to know when thinking about donating to a vamp?

@codec1 people typically find their own donors, I dont think it has anything to do with Houses/Covens.

True, just wanted to ask :P

diss: I have people offer to be my donor all the time, problem is, I don't meet my own standards for taking a donor.

Yes, only a few Houses or groups use donor matching services (or the equivalent), etc.

I sometimes wonder why donors even want to donate - I've already read quite a few responses to threads on this topic, though, but still.

* cynsanity agrees with Ami

* codec1 wants to know the same Ami

My fiance does because I feed tantrically, I don't think he wants me sleeping with other guys ;)

To specify, i'm thinking of doing a research project. Quite academic in nature; because I’m annoyed at all the publications about vamps, but not about donors.

For some donors they find donating energy or blood to feel really good and can sometimes be addictive, but thats not always the case.

Diss, I think people look at it as us, taking it outselfs from then, like... how the movies go?

My donor used to like the lull she went into when I fed, found is relaxing and comforting.

I had one guy not only offer to be my donor, but to be my pet. :-/

O_o odd.

Your pet?

I think I heard about that Zimmer.

I was like, dude I'm not taking on donors right now, and I don't want a pet.

Yay for pets :p

* codc blinks at the thought of someone asking to be there pet.

* cynsanity blinks at the thought of someone not taking on new donors

Maybe if they swept my floors I'd consider it.

I've had a few pets before, ;) and one was a furry therian kind.

codc: It was some weird ass personal mythology thing. Asian demon fox.

Kitsune are almost like faeries, I've noticed from their lore.. only they're in fox form.. and sometimes serve a deity.

@Zimmer, Kitsune doesn't exclusively mean daemon.

Ah that would explain a lot then.

But then, Sangi would agree, he wanted to be a pet.

cynsanity: I don't have any donors, I don't meet my own requirements.

Gabby: This guy claimed kitsune.

Zimmer, what kind of requirements do you have for yourself?

Diss: Well, for myself, I want to be a registered plebotomist, I don't want people cutting themselves.

@Everyone, @diss, etc... What do you see as the primary motivation for donors to donate, particularly when one doesn’t have an established relationship/friendship with a person who happens to be a vampire to start with?

I basically see it as a want to help another in pain, look at war, people die while trying to help another.

Isealdor: They like to help people in need.

Or they're seasoned donors and know what to expect.

Or they are drawn to people who need them.

If they're not doing it out of friendship, they're getting something out of it. Those who do it for friendship want to help someone they know and like/love to not be in pain.

Well as I stated earlier, most donors I know do it because it makes them feel good to donate and they are sometimes addicted to donating to others.

@cyn exactly... why being a donor? And what do people feel donors (excluding ones in a friendship, etc) get out of it?

Do some donors get paid for what they do?

There are a million and one things people can do to "help people who have a need"...what draws them to their specific choice of being a donor?

Isealdor: I know some donors who look at it the same way as giving blood or plasma. They want to give back to people in general, to people who need it.

@YoungChild that would kind of disturb me.

Young, some want sex afterwared as a pay back? (at least the ones I’ve met; and no I didnt take it)

My first long-term donor got a kick out of it.

@YoungChild: How do you mean "paid"? Specifically with money or just compensation of some sort?

NyteMuse, compensated any way.

I don't know anyone who gets monetary recompense, but one of my donors (sort of the main one at this point) gets relief from a chronic pain whenever I work on him.

Which helps him sleep better.

A friend who sees that someone has a need and decides to help them as a result of their friendship I can understand. I can also understand if that person then goes out to actively seek others to donate to if the first situation ends. But, for someone who doesn't know any vamps to begin with, why decide to be a donor?

That’s why I asked Isealdor, it would weird me out a bit, like prostitution in a way.

I've run into people like that, they expect some kind of "payment" in return.

I find it hard to say why I got into donating; I've known that I would like to donate long before I knew about real vampires.

As far as i can see it's just part of my make-up.

Zimmer, yep.

I never agreed with that practice, myself.

Diss, it’s like blood donors for the Red Cross.

codc: I've run into it in other communities to. Not just the vampire ones.

Zimmer, yea I know, I’ve seen it in some BDSM, vampiric and pagan ones. (don’t ask about the pagan one)

Zimmer, yea. Mine was in the energy worker community.

codc: My first experiance with something like that was in the pagan community.

Only payment any donor of mine gets is a taxi fare home.

@diss Can you explain knowing you wanted to donate before you knew about real vampires?

@diss.. If you didn't know about real vampires, how did you know?

I think if you want to help, no matter what you do to help, if a payment will coe, it will be what you need when you need it.

diss, You donated blood before you donated to vampires?

No, I never donated blood, I believed they wouldn't take it because of my medical past (which turned out to be incorrect), and then more recently (once I knew about real vampires) I've preferred to keep my blood for my vamp.

As to how I knew; I've got to admit to vampire literature playing a huge role in it, in the sense that it made me realise that was something I wanted to do.

But I think it was mostly that it resonated with ideas already in my mind.

And you decided to stick with it when you realised it was nothing like the literature?

What kind of "vampire literature"?!

Don't laugh, Anne Rice. In my defense, I was 13 or 14.

People who slept in coffins, drank blood out of necks and turn into a bat made you realise this is what you wanted?

What book diss?

I think everyone loves Anne Rice.

I don't, nightchild.

Nightchild: I don't. She annoys me.

The Interview With A Vampire trilogy. It doesn't really matter.

Matter of fact, I threw Interview across my bedroom only half read.

diss: *hehe* Though the only Anne Rice book I've read was some detective story... without any supernatural stuff involved ;)

Hey, if it makes 'em want to donate, don't knock 'em.

Anne Rice is better than Stephenie Meyer.

Interview With A Vampire - that’s the only book I got of Anne Rice - others rented.

And yes, having experienced donating, and knowing how different it is to the stories/books, I'm still convinced that it's the right thing for me.

diss: So you dreamt of being the beauty who gets sucked on? I mean as young teenager :D

@diss How do you think your perception coming in from the fictional side of things is different than someone who, say, has a friend who explains that they're a vampire and they offer to become a donor for them out of friendship?

Do you think it made you want to donate more, less, etc?

@isealdor, that's actually a question i want to explore, how it's different for a self-motivated donor and for a "recruited" donor

Black Swan Haven, a haven and community for donors, is at

* How do you define a "recruited" donor, diss?

diss, I think a recruted donor doesn't really want it but offers anyway, and at a time, they just stop doing it after so mich, a self donor, knows what to want and keeps at it.

@Diss or other donors - any uncomfortable emotional attachments to your vampire or vice versa really - vampire to donor?

@Merticus, i can't really answer that question as i'm very emotionally attached to my vamp anyway.

@Merticus.. Not for me, but I don't know if you're asking folks who're vamp AND donor.

Any of the above - both.

Well from what I've seen those who want to give blood are a bit different, its more or less makes it more of a fantasy.

Got that bond thing goin' on.

codc: sorry, I’m not sure I understand this; you mean a recruited donor sees donating as a regular job which needs to be done?

"recruited" as in, was brought to the question by a vamp, instead of finding to vampirism by themselves.

Blood bonds and obsessive donors. I have bad experiences with emotionally draining, clingy donors.

Only time I had an issue of emotional attachment was because there was a personal relationship there as well, wasn't anything to do with the donoring.

Amikeco, no, basically a recruiting donor does it out of curiosity, then after so much loses interest then stops after so long.

lmao, I just asked my fiance why he decided to be my donor and the response I get is: "Why the hell does that matter? I don't care."

@diss Okay, thanks, that's what I thought :)

Well then are we not venturing into where's the line between blood fetish/and sanguine drinking.

There is no line, it's a ten lane highway.

Amikeco, yes... I’ve had those.... sad and hard to break the bond.

I must admit I worry about becoming the obsessive clingy donor...

I absolutely have to agree with Sangi.

diss, Don’t worrie about it, I’m the same why with my donors :P

The only thing in common between blood fetishist and a vampire is sometimes some blood goes into the fetishist's mouth.

codc: Do you quickly form bonds?

Sangi: lol

Blood play and some gets in your mouth.

* cynsanity chortles

Amikeco, I try not to? But it sometimes just happens, and being what I am, it also effects them as well and not just me.

* DoniGrey nods

"accidental sang feeding" Father Evan Christopher.

That's why I stated it off of the comment that was made

@Sangi: Don't some sangs get a rush or feeling of contentment from feeding?

How exactly does one "accidently" sang feed?

Yeah but that is different from sexual satisfaction.

That was my question, Isealdor.

Isealdor, auto-feeding on one’s self....

codc: I don't want to feel inquisitive but is your kind of bond also related to love?

Autovampirism is not feeding.

I’d like to know that too (accidentally sang feed).

I also worried about whether I was really interested in donating or whether it was a blood-fetish; I know it's not a fetish now.

I also wouldnt classify someone drinking blood as part of blood-play as "feeding".

Amikeco, I wouldn’t really say love, I would say more of a predatorial and territorial stand point.

Not all blood fetishists get "sexual satisfaction".

I laughed a lot when I heard him say it.

A fetish can also be classified by an obssession, not necessarily sexual.

Blood Fetishist = Sexual. Period, end of story.

@Nyte... that's kind of the definition of a fetish.

@Isealdor: Depends on your definition and dictionary.

From American Heritage:

"An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence"

Also "An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation."

Amikeco, that’s why I dont like having a donor with more than one vamp.

We're talking about haematophilia as a sexual paraphilia.

codc: Ah, so it's also about conquering (you know what I mean, not the mean version)?

Yes sangi, assuming that they are doing it as a fetish.

If they don't know they are a vamp it could happen.

Jesus, it's no wonder nobody can agree on what VAMPIRE means... people disagree on established, defined definitions that are not up for dispute.

Sangi: Yep

Out of curiosity - not that it has any bearing - but how many here are also members of the BDSM community / into SM relationships? And of those, how many incorporate blood *outside* of vampiric feeding?

Not really "part" of it, but I side with SM quite a bit, I do not partake in blood anything unless it involves steak.

@Merticus: Yes and yes

Mmmm Merticus you have no idea how much I would love to get that out of vampirism. Michelle drives me insane... with what she wears.

Amikeco, lol, well I maybe getting another soon who craves for that kind of attention :P

@Mert: several SM relationships (I wanted to type "relationshits" in a classical Freudian way), never any bloodplay. At all. My own rule, because I don't mix sex and food.

There are some, but finding them and drawing them out is the hard part. They tend to be secretive over that way.

Hi Guys - I'm living in Ireland. Don't know if you know of any members of vampire community there? It feels rather lonely.

Guest3 - I sent you a PM about the Ireland question.

* Camazotz isn't involved with the BDSM community.

* NyteMuse laughs @ "relationshits"

* diss is into BDSM

But also doesn't mix blood and sex.

* Isealdor follows a BDSM lifestyle, also

@Sangi: Problem with linguistics is that words carry multiple meanings. Fetish does not ONLY mean sexual.

Blood fetishist by definition means sexual arousal by blood and blood play. Give me a couple hours and I'll come up with a legalese definition for it without loopholes.

This one is just a gneeral one off the cuff.

I can't believe I'm arguing about it.

* jyu_dragon is a BDSM Master

Sangi, then why do you care?

Why don't we just clear it up by saying "haematophilia"? There's no "fetish" in there that could confuse people.

I'm an engineering student working as a paralegal. I dress and act normal. I'm open about what I am, etc.

* cynsanity is not living a BDSM lifestyle, though, but is a normal boring humanities student.

cyn: normal? :P

* diss laughs at cyn calling herself "normal" and "boring"

Because I'm not a pervert. I'm a vampire. There - no minced words.

* Adara used to be in the BDSM community for a bit years ago, not much anymore.

Cyn is normal to me :p

Thanks, Ami. You're the voice of reason.

Never said you were a pervert, Sangi. And for the record, I don't believe that blood fetishists and sangs are the same thing.

All I was saying was that a fetish does not have to manifest as sexual.

I'll let "normal" stand, but definitely not boring.

* Isealdor wonders why the community is so caught up in semantics and definitions all the time...

Because that's what people do?

* NyteMuse echoes Isealdor

It's all we have Isealdor? ;)

Hey, words are fun. Said the philologist.

* SphynxCatVP just waits for the dust to settle and goes back to preaching common sense at that point

Isealdor, I take it you've never sat in a circle of queers discussing what "queer" means.

@ Isealdor because they want to make sure they are understood clearly by others who use different labels etc.

@diss That'd be an incorrect assumption :)

* Adara hates some of the terminology in the community, wonders why everything must have a definition.

* YoungChild laughs

Adara: Me too

Because Adara we are a community.

We use those useless definitions to define us.

@Adara: Human fallacy

Yes, but why is there so much focus on definition?

Some terminology doesn’t even make sense but that’s my opinion.

The human brain has this need to categorize and label.

We are what we are, why must that be defined or explained so much?

I wish we weren’t.

But it’s become too ingrained.

Adara, because it’s hard to say "I'm me!" then be asked who/what you are without SOME definition.

* Myrbree goes back to her corner

Because everyone likes to be in neat boxes - it's a comfort and control issue.

A bundle of sticks.......no wait that’s the other one

What are we discussing?

Yes, but then we hold everyone TO those definitions and if you don't fit into a certain definition, you're called "fake".

It's a problem of confusing the map with the actual territory... typical human fallacy, though.

True Adara, but some definitions are used too loosely, others too tightly.

Actually, had a conversation about it a few days ago, and came up with a running theory that the definitions and such really is sort of "all we have"...the common name and terms is often what is similar across branches and people in the community.

So then those terms become highly valued and the definitions become highly personal because they're what people are using to identify.

Well not everyone can be defined by one name/definition.

Isealdor, sometimes I think it's only the terms and names that connect us at all.

@cyn exactly.

True, it also helps people find the community, even though they may have to shift through some BS.

Adara , I think we can agree, living forever, turning into a bat, not having a reflection, and other myths of this nature can be said to be to far out there. I'm sorry by certain definitions need to stay.

Okay this is what I am: Jyujinkai is a sang/psi vampire whose soul was touched by a dragon.

Of course not, that is why we're fortunate to have many definitions.

Rath, true, but what I'm saying is, not everyone can be so easily defined.

Sometimes "what are you?" is not so easily answered.

Question....Why is it that "crazy" people give the best feeling and most powerfull energy?

@Rath and Adara, unless you believe in reincarnation aka the enternal soul living.

lol good question.

Which is understandable Gabby.

Adara, that is when you reply "I'm me" and start over again.

Asar, hey I'm not crazy :P

Didn't say you were.

However, being an immortal human is very different, the body can’t live forever.

Well I kinda have to believe in reincarnation for various reasons, Gabby lol.

I'm not crazy and neither am I - lol

@Asar that question makes the assumption that "crazy" people give the best feeling and most powerful energy", which I'd disagree with, so I can’t really answer.

Thank you for a great discussion. Feel free to stick around and talk amongst yourselves.

Post-Discussion Conversation Highlights

Additional Links & Resources:

The vampire Zilchy has created a series of informative vampire Q&A videos on YouTube at

The Ethical Psychic Vampire, by Raven Kaldera -

Practical Vampyrism for Modern Vampyres, by Lady CG -

Go check out my vampire dictionary, The Dictionary of Sanguinese (Second Edition), at

Vampires in Their Own Words: An Anthology of Vampire Voices, by Michelle Belanger -

Vampires Today: The Truth About Modern Vampirism - Joseph Laycock



The Collective Videos:

For anyone interested, a new Google Search Engine, custom tailored for the real vampire community. Search without getting tons of roleplay and fanfiction results:

Donor Interviews:

cyn, I think with the results form todays chat I'll be able to work out a test for my donor survey/interview thing.

A "test"?.

A trial version.

What info did you gather today?

Just loads of opinions and stuff, questions, etc.

It's a pity Johanna, Stefan and Ilse didn't come over when you were visiting, they'd have had buttloads of info to satiate your curiosity.

Yeah, I'd really like to talk with them.

Also tonight I realised one very important thing, which is that I need to talk to the donors who aren't actively involved in the VC.

And that to get to them I need to go through their vamps.

Diss, that's going to be difficult.

The donors that aren't active in the VC typically want nothing to do with it other than their vamps.

diss... I know one or two who are not active in the VC.

Plus, not all of us and our donors are of a scientific mindset. Mine would participate in a questionnaire or something out of pure curiousity, but wouldn't want to be involved in the VC.

* codc Agrees with Pixie

I mean, I'm aware that it's a rather large project. I've been mulling over it for a while.

And I don't know how it is with the others here, but I get quite territorial about my donors.

I do as well cyn.

Cyn, my vamp is territorial.

I know you do cyn!

But we've laid down ground rules.

The only time I get into fights with other people is when I either feel threatened in my core, or when my donors are threatened or I feel that to be a possibility.

And I don't even really like one of them.

I’m usually like that when another vamp is around, there threatened, or I fell threatened in some way or form.

But yeah, for now I want to set up a test, and run trough it with two or three other donors, see how it comes out.

I don't donate to other psivamps unless I absolutely have to (due to me overloading), and if I wish to donate sang, she has to check them out/approve of them.

Well, you can have 4 test persons from me for your test.

Vampires In The Military:

One topic that I wanted to discuss earlier today was vampirism and military.

That's a great one.

I know of only one active community member who has connections to the armed forces... and that person is not here.

I imagine that don't ask, don't tell doesn't apply to bloodsuckers. :P

We have an active member in the armed forces.

bloodypinklady, I know about a dozen offhand.

I know at least a dozen or more in the community who are active duty.

Vamps of war?

I know several sangs in the military locally.

Would be funnier if you were talking about otherkin.

(dogs of war)

Ah yes, let loose the hounds of war...

Hmm. I'm dating a soldier and I couldn't really mark him.

Mark?

Soldiers returned from leave get *searched*

I'm used to drawing blood through half-inch cuts. Not so this last time.

Not sure if the no marks rule was to save face or prevent problems, but eh.

ooooohh, you mean they go over them with a microscope looking for needle marks?

* Isealdor nods* unless you actually do it with scratching, it's kind of hard to pass off the fresh cuts.

I ended up pricking his finger. Considered between the fingers, but didn't want to make him look like a heroin addict.

So for those who know soldiers serving, primarily blood or psy?

No real difference?

bloodypinklady: A mix, fairly even.

The ones I know who are currently serving are sangs.

But then I tend to have more truck with them anyway so that may be a skewed view.

I know 2 sangs actively deployed on ships, makes it pretty rough for them.

I know a few just returned from Iraq.

Meeting up here in a week or so.

Discrimination Revisited:

I don't know if this was done to death earlier either: Is there such a

thing as deserved discrimination when it comes to community fringe?

Deserved? Do you mean should life stylers deserve discrimination?

I am confused a little.

Pretty much.

It briefly was, in terms of people who run around wearing fake fangs and what not.

I can't say that anyone deserves discrimination in this country regardless of how embarrassing they may be, if they do not present a proven and measurable detriment to society.

I'm not talking about folks as far gone as Sharkey, but crazy-uncle-at-a-reunion types. Mostly harmless... mostly.

I dont know... I see no issue with mocking the plentiful lulz that people tend to churn out.

Should there be concentrated effort to get them into the fold or let them be?

There are always going to be "fringe" people in any group/(sub)culture/community/society...as soon as you "get rid of" one fringe, another thing becomes the fringe, so I dont see much point.

Agreed.

You know, while they annoy me, fringe makes it easier to move around and not be the one sticking out.

It’s best to look normal, but be unique.

I actually identify as a hybrid, meaning I feed both from blood and other sources.

I am similar but much more a sang.

If you were a sang, then how would you need to fight for your rights?

I’ve less need to fight for any rights because I don’t put myself in situations where it becomes an issue.

My best practice is to keep under the radar.

I agree with Isealdor: IMO, discrimination is only possible if you're not careful.

Well...I dont know that I'd go so far to say "only possible"... sometimes even with reasonable precautions made, things can happen.

The problem these days is that the internet never forgets and if you get outed, it doesn't go away.

People and relationships change, etc.

True

But there's a lot you can do to help prevent it.

Isealdor is it better to not let people know you’re a vampire so we don't get discrimination.

But showing up to a group meeting with a leashed human pet... yeah, that's not being careful.

BrokenAngel: That's something everyone has to decide for themselves.

I was just wondering Isealdor.

I suppose that depends some on the context of the situation, PinkLady. If you walked into a BDSM club/dungeon that way, no one would likely even bat an eye.

That's more a BDSM crossover thing, though, than a true vampirism-caused discrimination issue.

I'm not so sure about the whole blood pet thing. I figure it's the popular thing to do elsewhere.

I think that would make a good talking point in the future. Urban vampirism vs. rural vampirism.

bloodypinklady: In terms of like places where there is more of a "vampire scene" vs those who are more solitary?

To be honest, I think it's easier to hide vampirism in cities.

It's easy to hide vampirism anywhere as long as you don't broadcast it.

I'm envious that some people are surrounded by enough like minds that they can be out and stay out, or come out whenever they wish.

And that "coming out" isn't even an issue. They can just "be".

...but when one retard doesn't understand unacceptable behavior in public, that means a new meeting place.

Yeah, still can't get over that blood pet!

I wonder what the split up of the 'out' demographic is in terms of their type of employment?

Yeah...there are a surprising number of folks who work behind-the-scenes for the entertainment industry.

Club promoters and DJs and the like.

If you keep your business and private life separate, it shouldn't be an issue.

Not always, I am my house are able to feed in an open club without a lot of head turning. Then again it is a vampire even and we have 2 vampire friendly clubs to host events.

One club. And that's being nice.

Lox: Do you find that people do their things in the clubs rather in private because they have an environment that'll support open play?

Private and business life can cross paths a lot. You are at a cafe with your boss, a stiff executive and a member of the community, obviously vamped out comes along and makes small talk of an inappropriate nature. Oops :-o

In urban centers, this can happen if everyone involved is not discreet.

Then don't talk about it offline unless needed?

It helps if the clubs are 21+

The Vampirism e-list (Yahoo) was my first real connection to this subject matter and got me into studying vampirism and other related things. This all started about 5-7 years ago.

For all the times people think otherwise, I really do think the vampirism yahoo group helps people.

It did for me. While I haven't been around that group in quite some time it was where everything began for me.

O.K. Well just to jump out on a limb I can see a crack in and is definately going to break ... Why is it that all of the other folks who feel like I do feel the need to dress in black and have as the Goths or recently found Emo's . Whatever that is... angst.

Sqwearl: If you're talking about the vampire community, there actually are a ton of people who don’t dress Goth/emo etc.

Sqwearl: I used to dress Goth... then I got a professional job.

Thank you Samilyn. Same here when it comes to clothes. I tend to stick to pants that fit me in the waist by have plenty of room in the legs, with just any shirt I happen to like.

I think the depression and the seperation stems from the waking experience sometimes.

Not everyone has a good time of it.

But that could be conjecture.

No Goth/emo clothes for me. Although I do love trenchcoats (I just don't own any).

Not to mention its coupled with puberty a majority of the time. Which is a bad time for added stress/confusion/worry.

A confusing enough time compounded, and often with little to no support.

I think the clothes are just another way to show that you're different and unique before you can fully understand the thoughts and actions that will make you truly unique.

The most important thing to remember though, at least in my opinion...is that always accept the possibility that somebody (anybody) could be wrong. Including yourself.

I have been blessed in that many of those close to me are very much understanding, but not everyone has been, and I feel it wise not to come out to those I do not know or trust very well.

Yes, that’s very important as well, Samilyn. Although I'm not vampiric, the first person I opened up too about my situation was my best friend. My parents still do not know, and probably never will.

I like the whole face to face thing… call me old fashioned but I find it easier to let some know just how genuine you are when you look them straight in the face and they understand that you are not a sheep but a predator and the only people who can really look at you are the ones who are truly the same… all the posers as I so rudly put it will cower.

I've been doing research off an on for a possible work on Jewish vampirism that isn't solely dedicated to the Kabbalah.

I have so many things that require my focus and energies that I must be sparing with them. I do not mean to hide, but I seek to hurt no one, and my attentions must be elsewhere. It must be liberating to live life in the face of things, but each of us make our own way within our own circumstances. I am pleased yours suits you.

I've stepped away from the term vampire/vampyre in my own personal expressions of myself I am simply pranavore.

Not too fermiliar with terms and names but I definately know what I am.

In an effort to disassociate with the claims of Hollywood on the term.

But being a pranavore... wouldn't that mean you live off of nothing but energy?

I take energy how I can get it.

Philosophical Discussion On Vampirism:

Why do so many people feel the need to create websites, groups, and such?

Moir, I don’t know.

Sorry but I have never viewed vampirism as a team sport.

Really... there should be ONE set site or group for this but who knows...

Personal insecurity and a need to make oneself seem more important and interesting than one actually is.

Cyn: I honestly agree...

Or at least my experiences would suggest just that.

Which, of course, attracts lots of mindless, more often than not teenage behavioural robots who want to belong to something in order to be special and have friends... those people are those who join houses.

At least IMO

Really... there should be ONE set site or group for this but who knows...

It’s a diverse lot Marcus.

Well... it would be easier, I’m tired of signing up for one site, then another and so on.

Hey I'm just being honest here...

I agree man.

This need to huddle together and hug trees just kills me...

Which is why I think the VVC is a great idea.... my twitter page links to the VVC news.

I don't mean to offend any one here, I'm just trying to understand...

Noir.... don’t get depressed over it. I was almost going to leave the OVC till Lady CG kept me here.

I mean my own experiences with a house and an order was just f'ing nightmares!

Noir, that’s why I dont believe or am in one NO POINT.

People are f'ed up as it is. It all deals with power....

Some are more specialized in sanguine, others psi, others hybrid.... and others individual house belief structures like

Basically I see the community (and no offense to anyone in here) it’s power hungry.

Some like the which I moderate have a bit of everything.

Anyone else sick of hundreds of new vampire-Ning-sites?

I don’t even go to the Ning servers anymore.

I can't stand Ning sites.

The basic problem with the whole community is that it is based upon self identification to a conceptual archetype that has not empirical proof of existence or genesis...

But I think there are so many sites because each person is trying to express their own point of view or knowledge to the vampire public which is true to them....

Yeah, which lands us back in definition-land.

Moir, I put it like this. People who try to prove there vampires, most of the time, are really rp'ers.

And at the same time, Lono, it all looks like another attempt to garner attention.

codc: Then 95% of the community are role players.

99.9999999999999%, according to my opinion, but let's not get started on that.

But I mean, I’ve seen people come and go, some just get into it, and after a year or to "drop" the vampire rping.

It will be loud enough soon...

Why’s that?

How come?

Just a hunch I have a feeling, that's all.

In regards to numbers of participants or moods and emotions?

There is no easy way to explain it...

Ever throw a stone in a pool of water?

* cynsanity nods

Ripples from the waves...

There's the plunge, and then ripples start going outwards, forming waves...

So basically... who did what where?

Yes, that is what I meant...

* cynsanity loves how Isealdor can put stuff into clear terms

If it's a big enough stone we get a tsunami.

Ooh, I loved the Tsunami. My deities were going all nuts over it.

Isealdor, at this point I'm not sure... just had a long conversation with someone on the subject...

cyn: Sometimes I swear that's my life... taking anything and putting it in ways others "get" it, whereas they just stared at the original, going "huh?"

Marcus: I've had a few of those in the last couple days, too, so it should be interesting.

Well I've been working on a variety of things...

Marcus: May one ask what kind of work?

One of which is the conceptual archetype of the vampire as a new form of shaman...

* cynsanity listens interestedly

What exactly do you mean by "conceptual archetype"?

In the Jungian sense?

* diss peaks from behind cyn's shoulders to listen in also

Correct. The collective concept generated by a culture...

For clarity's sake, we're talking primarily the magickal vampirism side/theory/take on things, not the energy deficient side, yes?

Are you then referring to the Jungian archetype of the vampire, or to the "all cultures have a vampire myth, therefore there has to be a substance behind it which can be called an archetype"-one?

Or to the "Akashic records"-one?

Ok let me explain... one, I personally do not view magick as being separate from breathing... It’s either some thing you do or you don't...

* cynsanity nods in agreement with Marcus

Agreed

Same thing as vampirism... you do or you don't. I'm a bass player by trade and passion so I try to find the "one" in the beat always ;)

Marcus, "do or don't" with vampirism, or "are or aren't"?

One of my concepts, at least in my experience, is that I do not suffer from an energy deficiency but that I just burn through energy at a higher energetic metabolic rate...

I have to agree with Marcus on that, at least partially. Sometimes, usually when my physical body is wreaking havoc on me, I feel "down on energy", but usually, I just burn through it far too fast.

I also have a higher normal metabolic rate, which always puzzles my doctors.

Same with me...

And one thing I've learned is that way to often we perceive our bodies as all separate, not all working in harmony with reflected unison...

I would actually agree to the energy metabolic rate, too, but that in turn manifests itself as a deficiency... if you process it faster, and your use is greater than your intake, you're deficient.

One of the reasons why I've tried to get some study in on Eastern medicine...

I see myself forced to agree with Isealdor.

A higher metabolic rate is, in a way, a not-really-good-thing.

Whether physical or energetical.

Well it means your cells are splitting at a higher rate.

Agreed

So of course it’s bad.

If too high I suppose.

I personally just do not view it as a deficiency. Just is so adjust for it.

Tangentially, I think this might be a possible division between types of vampires, those with normal energy use who do not produce energy at "normal" rates, and those who do produce energy at "normal" rates but who use energy much faster.

The processing rate/deficiency bit is why I tend to take the approach of saying that we simply require "additional supplementation" beyond the norm.

Bingo

Marcus: Yeah, I just see it as a differency, not a disease or real deficiency.

diss, I'd also add those with high energy metabolism and not producing enough.

cyn, You mean those who produce less than normal people would but who also have the higher need? That would be very hungry vamps...

diss: I'd counter with that for one to not be producing energy at a "normal" rate, that falls more into the illness/injury-caused category, like the damaged chakra theories, etc... which I personally do not consider to be true vampirism. I will grant that the conditions make one vampiric, but not a vampire.

What do you consider makes one a vampire Isealdor? If I can pick at your brain for a moment.

diss, Exactly.

Isealdor, I would agree with you on that, just as when I experienced sympathetic vampirism it didn't make me a vampire.

Isealdor: Personally, I still feel that a vampire has to have a predatory aspect in some way... otherwise, it’s called a leech. Yes, I know that is an unpopular viewpoint.

DarkElement, It's long and complicated, so my article works better for explaining

* cynsanity agrees with Marcus

Unpopular, popular or not, I don't care, that's my POV as well.

And this is where I bring up my usual argument...

Marcus: Interesting...I'd agree with the predatory feel, but not as the distinction between a leech and a vampire. A leech, in my mind, does not have the need for the energy, simply absorbs it anyway. A vampire has the need.

Couldn’t there be a permanent condition tho Isealdor, like people who have clinical depression?

Though I’m not saying those people are vampires.

A leech has a need... it’s called survival.

Marcus: Would the predatory aspect have anything to do with other connotations to the word vampire that influence your point of view?

Chain: Some of the conditions could be very permanent, yes...but that doesn’t make the person a vampire. It just means they have an energetic condition that makes them vampiric.

Yeah I suppose, my mind is really bad atm - a premanent illness is an illness nonetheless

It’s my own nature and personal experiences, and ultimately results that influence my view.

Marcus: I dont consider leeches as needing the energy to survive, or needing it period.

Did you ever get back any other results on that "experiment"?

DarkElement: A few, and some more are still working on it.

Sort of mixed results, too soon to have a reasonable data set to make any conclusions.

I call leeches everyone who IMO sucks energy without really needing it. And psi-vamps I personally dislike, on occasion...

I may end up having to push it around a little more, get more people to try it, to really get a good set.

"experiment"?

* Isealdor agrees with cyn

Cyn, you personally dislike psivamps?

Energy working experiment, dealing with drawing energy in the form of heat from containers of water.

Cyn: Yes... now also take into account all of the emotional vampires that infect the general community...

Marcus: Emotional vampires in the sense of the more psychosocial term, or in terms of vampires who actually feed off of energy let off via emotions?

DarkElement: It's more people come from different backgrounds, and so use terminology in different ways, and it helps to clear up the definitions so there arent misunderstandings :)

DarkElement: No, I dont personally dislike psivamps as a whole, but some individuals of them. Just like I dislike some sangs.

I don’t care how someone defines a word, so long as they say how they define it so I can relate to and understand what they're saying.

If you follow the three body theory - physical, mental, and energetic - then it is possible for an emotional vampire to fully exist...

Right, I understand. Just seems like you can have double meanings depending on your perception... or intentions. I dunno how to say it.

Yep, parallel definitions for a lot of terms have popped up.

It's all a matter of communication and semantics.

Isealdor, Marcus, I think we really should try to make one of the next topics the semantics of vampirism...

Actually, that'd be interesting, cyn

Agreed

I agree w/ Marcus.

Yeah, me too :) But I'm sick of the whole different definitions and problems to define the definitions.

Someone should make a dictionary, in standard dictionary form with multiple definitions for each term present.

Do you guys stick with vampirism sticking to drawing some kinda energy from other people then or? I see a lot of people refer to taking energy from various other soucres and refer to it as being vampiric or themselves as vampires.

Isealdor, I like that definition of a vampire in your blog-post. and it has the added benefit of differentiation between vampire and vampiric practices.

diss: Thanks :)

By using Korzybski's General Semantics, we could eliminate a lot of problems.

Here's my definition... you suck or you don't suck ;)

I consider it the need to draw energy from any source really. It's like you have a big menu of choices.

I see, however where is the line drawn?

Chain: Partially, there also has to be the need base in there and note for the condition not being part of some illness/injury, IMO

We should always differentiate vampirism from vampiric practices. A mage I know uses psi-vampirism to fill up before rituals, and he's definitely not a vamp.

Oh I know Isealdor, I get that part in your definition.

Mages... something akin to The Craft?

Just taking a poke at the other dimension of the definition, as what qualifies as an energy source to be used for a person to be a vampire.

DarkElement: Magick users.

Perhaps Cyn, that is where the question of Need is involved.

Almost all magick practitioners and energy workers, etc, use vampiric practices to gather energy for their work.

Actually, I've got to say that when I "feed" on a storm or similar, I don't consider myself to be doing anything vampiric.

Marcus: I think that the Need is the one differentiating aspect, together with the host of secondary symptoms according to type of vamp (I believe that there are more than one, two, three, four or ten origins of vampirism).

Since, if one says taking energy from any source, and having a need for it with normal functioning system, all of us who eat, drink, and or breath would be vampires.

Chain: Yep, why I say in addition to the norm :)

I see.

A lot of people when they're sick will also draw energy from those around them... doesnt make them a vampire, it makes them normal.

Realistically, there is no litmus test for vampirism so we are wholly dependent upon self identification and agreement with a concept.

And thus many many many personal interpretations .

That is just energetic interaction... give and take.

Marcus: The problem, I think, is the concept we are/are not agreeing with. First there were sangs, then psis, then hybrids... what next? And where do we draw the line?

Marcus. Self-identification; that is actually a point I find interesting. On one hand there's a huge ongoing discussion in the VC on what constitutes a vampire, which is very much in search of an essentialist definition.

Marcus: Very true. That's a lot of why I think individual definitions of vampirism really have fairly little bearing on the community, and debate of it is often pointless. I like sharing of theories and thoughts, but the whole "ur wrong!!" bit is what causes the issues.

On the other hand, there's an equally strong discourse saying "only you can say if you're a vampire" which is essentially a constructivist discourse.

We're a community bound together by the fact that we self-identify as vampires, or are donors or friends to those who do... and that's really the “only” thing that truly ties the entire community together.

Isealdor: Exactly. Person X might be vampiric because of Thing X, and just because I'm a vamp who's one because of Thing Z, we can still both be vamps, just *NOT THE SAME*

"The ur wrong" exists because some people are weak in their strength of identities...

cyn: I could go for that. Good example is the prior Admin the Realm...she subscribes to the damaged chakra theory and identifies as a vampire because of that. I define it differently, but that doesn’t mean that one of us is any less part of the community, nor should we be.

Because of so many personal interpretations, I just break it down to my "suck or don't suck" notion :)

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