MMU



Pale Rider #sschatreads 4 April parts 1 – 2DU 26 March. Some fellow social studies teachers are starting a twitter bookclub. Our first selection is Pale rider....#sschatreadsDennis Urban. Dennis from Long Island NY. I teach high school social studies. I think reading about a pandemic while living through one allows us to place #covid19 in broader historical context and contribute to our understanding of it.Maine Teacher Hi everyone. Im Kate Kennedy. I teach 11 – 12th grade social studies in Blue Hill ME. One valuable thing is to gain perspective on what we’re going through.BL Bradley Liebrecht from Washington State here and I teach 8th grade social studies. I think the benefit of learning about pandemics while being in one is that it helps provide some frame of reference for what we are experiencing now.BS Briah Sheehy history dept coordinator North Andover high school in north Andover MA. Started putting together resources on the fly in 1918 so we can compare and contrast the response and results to work on historical thinking skills.TM Intro – Theresa from NJ high school teacher .Enjoy pale rider. JC I’m Jennifer Casey from Jacksonville. I teach social studies and now that we’re all home I do a little gardening too.Jennifer Jolley May miss this morning. Starting operation clean my home office today. Pale Rider – interesting how domesticated water birds and pigs historically havecarried ‘crowd viruses’ and the few viruses that jumped to humans are the deadliest.Jennifer Jolley I’m also enjoying all the historical references to epidemics in the last 2 millenium. Pale rider is about more than the 1918 pandemic, because it tells a human story of diseases.CH I’m Chris from Bloomington IN. I teach world history for a private online HS affiliated w/Indiana Uni. I’m also one of the co-moderators of sschat. One valuable thing about reading about pandemics is that we learn that we have made it through others in history.JV Jo Verran from Manchester Metropolitan University UK. Founder of the Bad bugs BookclubSusan Gorman-Pullin I have not read the book. I am very interested in this topic and exploring it.IM Q1 Spinney writes about ‘our collective forgetting of the greatest massacre of the 20thC (p4) When did you learn about the 1918 flu pandemic? Do you teach about it? How can educators help correct this collective forgetting?BL A1 I have been doing an extra WW1 unit with my students (war not usually covered at our grade level) and I discovered that flu is hardly mentioned in our materials. I was surprised so I had started gathering some supplementary materials but had not done anything with them yet. (ref to webinar) CH (to MT and IM) I would imagine so. I have tried to emphasise to students in the past how devastated much of Europe was by WW1and how that contributed to the Treaty of Versailles (great connect with flu for Paris Peace conf as well) but not really about the flu.BL If you haven’t signed up yet, I strongly recommend this webinar on the 1918 flu pandemic. (Kenneth C.Davis)Chris Hitchock. A1 Don’t remember learning about 1918 pandemic in school but can’t remember specifically when I learned about it. Prob while reading about WW1 while I was teaching. Have taught it before but not deeply. Think @kennethcdavis More deadly than war is great ref for Ss.Tmaughan. A1 I first learned about it in high school but it was simply a few sentences mentioned in the textbook.With the current situation the 1918 influenza is no longer something hidden in history its been written about in newpapersMTA1 I don’t remember exactly when I learned about it but the most vivid memory I have of it was this population video where this scientist was showing the population growth of the world and then there was this huge fall with WW1 and the flu. It was memorable.BS A1 It is fascinating how little we teach it. One student pointed out that it takes up a paragraph of their textbook. I liked how the book went over a lot of pandemics we as teachers should teach the larger picture. I’ve also seen it in researching but never looked at. DU A1. I’m not sure when I first learned about it, but I remember it featured in an episode of Downton Abbey in 2012. It made an impression. I mention the Spanish flu when I teach WW1 but I don’t go into great detail.MT (to DU) Me too. Sad that it took this to happen to realise it, but one of the great things about our job is that we are constantly evolving.DU (to MT) Glad Im not the only one. I mean, I know I learned about it before then, but that episode really had an impact on me.JW (to IM and DU) That may be the first time I heard about the flu – Stanley cup history. Its the only time it wasn’t awarded.CH (to DU) Yes. Though I don’t remember ever learning about that in any classes.MT A1 As far as ‘collective forgetting’ ; it could be a good way to emphasise the importance of learning history for our SS. People in the future need to remember what this was like SS Ss at our school are keeping a living history journal for future kidsChris Hitchcock ‘The Spanish flu is remembered personally not collectively. Not as a historical disaster, but as millions of discrete, private tragedies’. Will be interesting to see how diff this pandemic is remembered w/social media and ability to ‘experience’ communal suffering.Maine Teacher. I think it will definitely change. Anytime history teachers can make connections between the past and the present were gonna grab hold of that opportunityJV A1 I always taught my Ugs about 1918 flu and 20C flu epidemiology, but the centenary provided so many fantastic non-fiction narratives that made it so much more human (lots of flu fiction too)JC A1 I didn’t really learn about Spanish flu in any way that I can recall. I’ve taught over and around it or mentioned it as a footnote. We tend to learn more when something seems relevant. Pandemic disease has not been on our collective radar.MT (to BL) me either and that’s something I teach about in my Holocaust class as well and I teach (or do a review) of WW1 for them to lead into the holocaust , so I’m going to add this part.DU (to IM and MT) good point. And I like that she’s profiling the flu’s impact globally (ch 4 in S.America)DU The 1918 flu hasn’t been a popular topic in popular culture. I wonder if that will change (article from Smithsonian Why did do few novels tackle the 1918 pandemic). JV (to DU) The Last Town on Earth by Thomas Mullen see #badbugsbookclub website for notesMY (to DU) I think it will definitely change. Anytime history teachers can make connections between the past and the present we’re gonna grab hold of that opportunity.CH (to DU) I wonder about that too. It’s getting referenced so much in connection to our current pandemic that at least more people are learning about it now.Jennifer Welch (to DU) I am reading the Murmur of Bees right now. I wonder if the epidemic is featured more in the popular culture of other countries.BL (to DU and MT). I think stories like that would definitely help students connect to the material and provide a reference point.DU (to BL) I agree. Contextualising the diseases but also showing the significance of diseases throughout different periods of historyDU (to CH) Exactly. And I wonder isn’t it even easier now? what does that mean for our current situation?IMQ2 What similarities are you seeing between the 1918 epidemic and covid 19I? MT A2 The Leviathan ship reminded me of what was going on with the Navy carrier in the news. Also how Fauci is warning about it coming in waves. That has me very anxious. CH (to TM and IM) I wonder if it was primarily cruise ships as opposed to plane travel and other forms of transportation. It will also be interesting to see if any other possible origin points are identified as with the 1918 pandemic.CH (to TM and IM) Ah that makes sense. Yes those stories definitely raised awareness. Haven’t read the Washington post story out last night I think about peoples stories on particular cruise ship. When they left VP was still saying cruise travel was fine.MT (to TM, CH, IM) which I didn’t understand. How is that any different than letting a plane of people off. They would never have left people on a plane.CH (to MT) such a good point, and that people can transmit the disease while being asymptomatic.TM (to CH IM) definitely spread today is connected with air travel but the public consciousness was raised through the stories of passengers trapped on ships that were banned from disembarking at certain ports. MT (to IM and CH) I’ve been thinking about that too. Theres been a lot of writing about how we wont go back to how it was before. I am wondering if we will just stop shaking hands now. Also wondering if were rearing a generation of OCD kids who will Clorox wipe everything.CH (to MT and IM) I have thought about this as well. My kids have multiple food allergies so have always been cautious about washing hands and cleaning somethings. Will be interesting to see if that will ramp up with covid 19.DU A2 The line on p50 ‘ by the end of the day, the college had closed indefinitely’ really struck me. The shutdown of those social and economic institutions that we used to take for granted.CH (to DU) it would be interesting to be able to track the curves for 1918 influenza and compare with covid 19. Have to imagine that the spread is faster and wider (more places) than 1918.JV Q2 similarities, the mapping of the spreadDU A2 this is a good transition, because we can draw on our current experiences with covid 19 to teach about Spanish flu and change the collective forgetting.TMA2 today the spread outside China came through cruise ships and the 1918 troop ships aided the spread, the disease is disproportionately impacting working class people.CH A2 the way it has been blamed on and connected to ‘others’ sadly. I thought the discussion of tracing the origins of the 1918 pandemic in the books is particularly fascinating (think that’s in a later section though that what were discussing today)BLA2 I agree with CH. I was surprised to see how much effort has been expended in trying to blame someone for the outbreak. The focus should be on treatment and suppression not blaming others DU (to CH) Great point! I can’t stand peoples use of the term ‘chinese virus’ I tweeted about it a few weeks ago (which seems like a few months ago)DU (to CH and IM) not to mention the ‘imperial diseases’ that spinney references on p21!MT (to DU) I can tell you that if you apply for the small business loan program they’ve set up one of the things you have to agree to do is buy American products as much as possible.Jennifer Casey A2 one similarity is that there was a lack of education to the masses on the virus and on preventing or containing an outbreak before disaster struckBS A2 There are a lot of similar responses. Found some really cool ads in newspapers directing people to protect themselves. Got similar advice in my doordash food order yesterday.MT It would be cool to find notices from 1918 and then give kids a scavenger hunt challenge to find similar ones. This idea just came to me and I’m totally doing it.MT LOL! I am mad that I haven’t gotten the CDC postcard yet! I guess the government doesn’t care about me. Political cartoons are perfect.CH (to JC and MT) It’s an interesting opportunity to get a sense of how social norms are difficult to change and/or how quickly they can change in face of life-threatening situation.MT (to JC) I would think it is especially hard when the recommendations keep changing. It makes it seem like no one really knows whats going on!DU (to MT) so true. People trust in science a lot more today, but there’ still resistance, especially when people are asked to upend their entire lives for public health.CH (to DU). And so quickly! Its hard to believe that its really only been a few weeks since things started shutting down.CH (to MT) found out on Thursday that the school year in Indiana is done in terms of in-person learning. Went from April 6 to May 1 to just done in about 3 weeks (or less)CH (to MT) most schools in Indiana get out right before Memorial Day (start in early august). Wouldn’t have been much school to return to after May 1 anyway. Concerned about start of next school year honestlyQ3 Spinney spends much of Part 1 discussing the historical background of the Spanish flu. How did this inform your understanding of pandemics and the Spanish flu. What impacts did the agricultural and industrial revs have on the spread of diseases?BS A3 It really showed me the importance of teaching and understanding the history of pandemics. I listened to a podcast she did and she expanded on the connection and continuation of these outbreaks.EES A3 One thing I found super interesting is how urbanisation as a side effect of the industrial rev makes it easier for diseases of all kinds – not just the flu – to spread. It’s interesting how something like that can have such mixed effects on people’s lives/health.MT A3 Also I love how perfectly interwoven it is to WW1. Like it mentions that the Germans releasing the Russian POWs after the Brest-Litovisk probably brought the flu to Russia. MT A3 I really like how she connects real-life people that we know like Edvard Munch. I like being about to include those stories for kids. I also didn’t realise that eugenics helped share the response to the flu.TM (to BL) She also points out how disease might have impacted art by connecting the origin of Edvard Munch’s the scream 1893 to illness, and the self portrait he created after recovering from the 1918 influenzaDU (to MT) that really adds to the story, those little vignettes of famous and ordinary individuals.TM(to IM) A3 Interested by the early attempts to uncover the source of the early epidemics such as the origin of the word influenza – the link to the stars, also amazed by what could be uncovered based on the technology available in the 17,18,19 centuries.Eliza Eaton-Stern A3 Its absolutely the right move as step 1 in analysing how people are impacted by disasters and pandemics. And analysing density maps feels dry to 7th graders right up to you start calling them ‘death prediction tools’ and they they’re all inEES As an addendum to A3, we start off our diseases and disasters unit by looking at population density as a concept and unpacking all the ways in which it has impact on the spread and deadliness of all kinds of disasters. Dense cities used to be much more dangerous.MT Yes! People are not obeying the 6ft rule here. Finally stores have placed tape by the registers but in the aisles people don’t care. I feel like a lunatic trying to dodge around people. I feel like screaming ‘six feet’!DU A3 I kept wondering (and this connects to Q2) about how/if globalization will impact the course of Covid19, since previous economic revolutions had such a strong impact on outbreaks.BL A3 I think Spinney does a great job of framing those events around the lens of disease. You read about outbreaks of disease here and there, but she does a great job of putting those outbreaks in context and how they shaped the development of cities.JC A3 I think it gets back to the idea that people spread pandemic disease. In my own mind I’ve always just understood that disease spreads. The emphasis on our own behaviour means that humans brought disease upon ourselves. We can critically look at our choices.CH A3 it was so much easier and faster for people to travel whether for pleasure, migration or with trade or for war. Allowed disease to travel faster and further than in past.IM Q4 How has peoples view of science changed and/or remained the same over time?MT A4 One of the things I found interesting was she said that people were less afraid of death back then. It was just kind of what happened. Today, we think science (medicine) can fix anything.DU A4 I think its important to realise that back then, as @lfspinney writes ‘the main cause of ill health was still...infectious disease – not the chronic...diseases that kill most of us today (p30). Perhaps that offers some hope for the current #Covid pandemic. MTA4 Back then people didn’t really even understand germs, but I think today people are having a hard time understanding that this can be in the air. I read somewhere that it has a land time of almost 3 hours. Its hard to ‘believe’ in something you can’t see.CH A4 seems there are still plenty of people who don’t believe in science or are distrustful of scientific information, data gathering, recommendations etc. There was distrust of medical professionals, for ex, in some societies during 1918 pandemic.JV A4 well, certainly at the moment scientists are getting a lot of listening! The book also makes you realise the relatively short duration of the flu in the context of war (and overshadowed by it at the time). The ’keep calm and carry on’ attitudeCH (to JV) yes but also getting a lot of flack such as Dr Fauci needing special protection due to threats against himIM (to MT) I find it interesting how even today, with all of our advances in science and medicine, people are still ...um stubborn about the factsBS A4 when reading about the various responses it made me think of Lindsay Fitzharris’s book the butchering arts and how not too long ago we were totally in the dark to so much science.TM A4 There is unwillingness by politicians to trust the scientists refusal to enforce national lockdown, trying to underreport the # of cases. Pros now – the speed at which info about the way it spreads, developing a faster testa and possible drugs identified for use.JC A4 The amount of uncertainty about ‘novel’ viruses in real time makes people less apt to allow science to inform their decisions.IM Q5 How does the history of the 1918 flu pandemic connect to WW1? Can we fully understand one without the other?Bradley Liebrecht. A5 I have been profiling WW1 soldiers for the past year and a half and I am continually surprised by how many soldiers died of disease and how little that is talked about. Looking at the flu from the macro lens makes it more real somehow.MT A5 I don’t think you can teach one without the other anymore. Maybe in the past you could’ve mentioned the flu as a footnote but now I think we have a responsibility to teach them together.MT A5 I wondered why this was more forgotten than the war since it would seem easier to come to terms with disease than a war. Less blaming at least.BL My students are also asking a lot of questions about past pandemics, so reading about it myself helps me give them better information.MT I agree (to BL). It also helps students to see that we lived through it before and it won’t be the end of the world.CH (to DU) of course that may also relate to how WW1 was never really emphasised in my education, that I remember (I graduated high school in 1989)CH (to DU) I wonder about that too. Its getting referenced so much in connection to our current pandemic that at least more people are learning about it now.DU A5 This was one of the biggest takeaways for me re WW1: the Spanish flu created havoc in the European theatre of war where it interfered significantly with military operations (p38)CH A5 I wonder if since the pandemic came towards the end of the war (which may have facilitated its spread with troops returning home)< it was less disruptive, and hence less remembered than if it had happened earlier?TM A5 Torchbearers of democracy looks at the experiences of black soldiers in the war. No denying that soldiers were among the first to be identified as victims and their return to US exacerbated the spread.TM (to BL) would be interested in how the racial discrimination at the time impacted on medical care of Af-Ams. In WW1 black nurses were needed to care for black soldiers in US expeditionary forces. How did Jim Crow impact 1918 influenza?BS A5 locally for me the flu came from Ft Devens and the Navy Yard and spread throughout MA. So they are very much connected on my local level. Started reading War fever which is about three figures in Boston Sept 1918.IM Q6 Resource –sharing time. How are you teaching this to your students? MT A6 I was planning on starting with my Ss watching this and then doing a venn diagram maybe to today. ((Influenza 1918 American experience )JC A6 I learned a lot of good background information on pandemics in this talk (nutritionfacts. Org/video/pandemic)TM (to MT and JC) I had my students read the NY times article about the inability to shelter at home and the need to use the subways. This virus doesn’t hit equally across economy gaps. The rate of infection in NY is due to this. My urban stds connected with the stories. MT A6 There are some other pandemic related movies on Netflix and amazon. I was thinking of offering those as extra credit since not everyone has access. BL (to MT and others) I think NCSS has a link up that would allow students to watch it. I think it would probably be appropriate for high school studentsCH (to MT and Kenneth Davis) that’s awesome that you’ll get a class set. I got it from the library soon after it was published but thinking about getting a copy for my kids to read here at home.DU (to MT) I shared this with my students shortly after the school closures began but I haven’t discussed it with them.TM A6 (to IM). Stds respond to daily questions in Google classroom similar to digital journal. @NYTimeslearning provides good pieces to use as journal prompts. Also using @CNN10 for daily current events log-submitted end of wk. CH (to DU and IM) it does offer a particular framework for teaching world history through disease, responses to disease etc.Brian Sheehy History Teacher. A6 back to a computer. Here is a folder with resources. Plan was to create a presentation for my students/community on what was going on locally in 1918BS If people are interested in some of the materials just shoot me a message and I’d be happy to share some of the stuff I’ve found.CH This @NPR piece could be useful for introducing the topic. It mentions Inuit villages which Spnney discussed in the book (including how the flu got to areas in Alaska). 2020/04/02/826Jennifer Welch A one thought, teaching history in a STEM school can be a challenge. The 1918 flu is a great place to integrate with their interests – and now the contemporary angle helps them relate Isabel Morales. Excellent conversation everyone. Thanks for your participationJV Thanks for that from the UK. Til next week! I have a paper in CDC journal EIDS about emerging infectious literatures if that is any help. Published 2018 with @XaviAldanaReyesPale Rider #sschatreads 11 April parts 3-4DU Hello and welcome. Let’s warm up by introducing ourselves. Tell us your name, location and professional role. Also talk a little about teaching remotely during the current pandemicI’m Dennis from Long Island NY. I teach high school social studies (currently #APUSH and US history). Remote teaching has been really hard. I miss the students and my colleagues, but I’m hoping it’ll give me an opportunity to try some new things.Noelle Smith. Noelle HS assist principal in humanities. Supporting an amazing crew of history, English and world language teachersIM I’m happy to be with #sschatreads again this weekend. Isabel history teacher from LA, I’m on a leave absence this semester for an international fellowship that ended early because of the pandemic. My students and colleagues agree that they’re struggling rt now.TM Theresa, high school teacher from NJ. Definitely had to hone my teaching craft by looking tutorials on youtube to help gain hints on how to use so many of the available digital apps. My ms used so far include google meet, edpuzzle and MT my colleagues and i tried google meet yesterday but we couldn’t figure out how to close out the session so that students couldn’t go in there after our session and just hang. Any ideas?TM I try to do a mindfulness activity at the start of our sessions. Something to pull them away from the sadness of losing contact with friends, cancelled proms, or questions about graduation ceremonies.Mrs DiBasio Hello I am Lisa and I teach in Bourne MA. I currently teach apush, pre-ap and model UN. I miss my students but am happy I can at least teach via google meet. It has forced me to look at different platforms to collaborate digitally and create a new classroom environment for ss. JW Good morning! Thanks to our hosts for encouraging this bit of reading and professional learning during the now normal. I teach in Passaic NJ and online learning stinks, in short. Buts its better than nothing, and we will get by. AF (Abigali French) I miss teaching and learning with my ss in person so much.MT my name is Kate Kennedy and I teach 11-12th grades social studies at George Stevens academy in Blue Hill, ME. I have been enjoying teaching remotely because it allows me time to check in 1 on 1 w/ss. Also I can assign more movies which I normally don’t have time for.TM sts really miss the ftf class structure and feel overloaded by the multitude of assignments all coming at the same time. We’ve recently implemented a schedule each day.JW today you will see me employ my best college success strategy. I didn’t finish reading yet, so I will participate actively and frequently for the first questions, then trail off unnoticeably after that.JV from MMU run the ‘badbugsbookclub to encourage discussion about infectious disease using fiction.DU Jo thanks for joining us this week!MT what a unique bookclub (JV – have a look at the website)CH very coolJW Oh I am intriguedDUQ1 how did the process of naming the 1918 flu reflect prevalent values around the world? What connections can you make to the present?NSA1 allows students to learn a new vocab word –xenophobia – and how its reinforced by nationalismIM A1 also thought it was interesting that some countries tried to name the disease in a way that made people take it seriously, like adding the word ‘true’ to it to avoid trivialising it.CHA1 it’s interesting that people never want to think that a disease began in their own country but that it came from elsewhere (the other) even when clear that a disease began somewhere, once it spreads it seems an expression of nationalism to focus on origin. DUA1 I like how Spinney highlights the problems with naming diseases even with the WHO guide some disease names can effect (questionable) values of the time, outgrow their names etc. MTA1 I really thought it was interesting how the WHO had to create guidelines saying that diseases names shouldn’t refer to specific places, people, animals, or food. It makes sense to protect these things. It’s why we should (not?) call this a Chinese virus.MTA1 when I was reading this part I was wondering why blame is the go-to response. It must make people feel better in some way. Like in Chile where they named it ‘makers of their own misery.CH A1 Its interesting that people never want to think that a disease began in their own country but that it came from elsewhere (the ‘other’). Even when clear that a disease began somewhere, once it spreads it seems an expression of nationalism to focus on origin.DU yes there was an article in NYtimes the other day that most of the US cases can be traced to Europe, but some people (we know who they are) contribute to use the racist term ‘Chinese virus’.JW the daily podcast did a lovely feature with a Chinese American journalist and what she has faced in the last month. She’s afraid to take the trash out of her apartmentMTI agree, once it is here, who really cares. Its’ not like its’ going to help stop it. JW scapegoating is superimportant to a lot of people today tooCH the focus on origin seems more appropriate for epidemiological study (tracing spread, learning for future reference etc) rather than political, social or other reasons.IM A1 I thought it was interesting that the flu went by various names, depending on country. Some of the names reflected people’s biases about others or showed where they thought the flu had originated fromIM The suggest to call the flu ‘manhu’ was fascinating. What is it? The concept of reserving judgement until we know more about it – I like it.JVA1 so many outbreaks begin with a name/blame. Some eventually lose that tag (eg Mexican swine flu).TM A1 the big four nations went with the label of the Spanish flu used first by Portugal. Today the label of Chinese flu is racially charged. Bill Gates recently supports the label of Chinese virus –fuels xenophobic idea. CH I was thinking the same thing about the title. DU (to CH) same here, but I understood it better after reading ch5 and her line a historical wrong became set in stone.DU Q2 describe the role of the media especially newspapers in reporting in the 1918 crisis. How did the war influence coverage of the pandemic?TM Depending on what part of the world, newspapers first hesitant to connect the flu with the returning soldiers. Seems like it took til the fall of 1918 for the severity to be publicised. Then you have Wilson leading a Columbus day parade with mass attendees.JVA2 I felt the part about censorship resonated. Where do you go for the truth? Who decides what should be known?CH to JV and some news outlets are more propaganda than information (or infotainment).MT to JV so true and so scary. There are so many places to turn to for news and so many people go to different places that we are all hearing different htings.CH to MT yet I have seen people also make the biowarfare connection (covid is something that was released from a weapons lab) on social media citing some type of media story. CH yes, and those who want to refer to it as such will easily overlook the evidence that doesn’t fit their view sadly.DU A2 also consider the role that foreign language newspapers played in immigrant cities like NYC. Italians got a lot of their news from Il Progresso, which influenced their views of and reactions to the pandemic.CH A2 from p102 ‘newspapers were the main means of communicating with the public in 1918, and they played a critical role in shaping compliance – or the failure of it.MTQ2 I though t it was interesting how the media put out stories about it being biowarfare (like now) and about it possibly being from aspirin. I’m surprised they made it through this and are still around.CH If discussing with students it might be helpful to reference this @onthemedia breaking news consumer handbook infographic.JW A2 I was intrigued by the comments that when coverage of the deaths was censored ‘to reduce panic’ then vigilance slipped, behaviour loosened and folks too ill. Again, such contemporary resonanceDUA2 same thing struck me, that the papers accused authorities of downplaying the seriousness of the flu and of not protecting the people.IMA2 the media has a responsibility to report on the news, especially in the face of a growing public health crisis. Back then news about the pandemic was censored because of the war and morale. There are some concerns about global media coverage in the present day as well.DU Q3 historian Alfred Crosby has argued that democracy is unhelpful in a pandemic. Do you agree? Why do you think it is so hard to get?DU A3 I think Spinney does a pretty good job of countering Crosby’s claim, or at least providing counter evidence that authoritarian governments don’t guarantee containment. Here’s an @theatlantic piece from Feb – not sure if it still holds up (‘democracies are better at fighting outbreaks)JW A3 this is where I gave up and started highlighting everything. Because it sure looked like the problems we are experiencing today.CH I think that could be a really interesting discussion with students in history and/or government courses.TMA3 It seems in 2020 our gvt struggles with federalism. Delays in aid to states and each state using its own rules is reflective of a confederation system. Diff to enforce restrictions which seem contrary to personal liberties. David A a steady diet of freedom makes any restriction seem authoritarian. Add to that the over politicisation of everything and getting people to see restriction for their benefit becomes difficult.NS A3 read this article about democracies vs dictatorships articles/2020CH I can understand from a marketing perspective since the term Spanish flu is so widely used. However I also think that the 1918 influenza pandemic would also make sense to most of the potential market for the book. Maybe? MTA3 related to this question – should we bring back sanitary cordons?? There were a lot of different ideas for things we could do here.MTA3 parallels! We’ll see packed churches in many places tmrw and 2 weeks from then there will prob be another spike. Sometimes I think taking rights away is OK. I saw a lady interviewed about why she was going to church and she said ‘i am covered in Jesus blood’CH (to MTA3) yeah, I live in Indiana and have family in Southern Indiana and KY. Some really that KY gov said license plates would be captured at any mass gatherings in violation of current restrictions. Lots of talk about violating people’s right to freely practice religion.DUA3 I’m actually pleasantly surprised at how well social distancing seems to be working in the US, considering issues of personal liberty and ‘this is a free country’ etc.IMA3 though provoking question. It seems to be in the best interest of public health to shut things down and limit individual movement. This appears to be in direct conflict with basic premises of democracy. Tension between individual liberty and general welfareJC (to IM) Camus also makes your point (but a long time ago).MT (to TM and DU) all of these seem like examples of religion being used for power.JVA3 In the UK at present a key concern is people going out in the unusually nice weather. Lots of messages to encourage us to stay home/protect the nhs/save livesCH (to JV A3) we just had a huge dustup because our state closed all state and county parks.CHA3 I think we’re seeing this today but more with federalism in the US. Some states taking things more seriously than others, imposing more restrictions, enforcing more or less strictly. I think some are fearful of giving govt too much authority. TM California seems to be leading –first to mandate wearing masks in public. My sister lives there and keeps me updated. NYC closing schools till fall today may lead to NJ doing the same. DU to CH yes and the author seems to agree that it was a good idea to keep schools open back then. But now, I don’t think so. JW to CH also that adults could monitor them for signs of the illness, and the kids could get fed (didn’t know schools fed kids in those years) those are still very valid concerns.JW (to DU) in the passages about NYC the points they made were valid, but just as I ask governor di Santis – what about the safety of the adult staff in those schools CH (to DU) yes, in some areas. Will be interesting to see where there may be new hotspots develop (hopefully not) in areas where physical distancing not mandatory. TM One factor in some areas is the need to work/income. Ppl in urban areas live in housing that doesn’t afford a back yard or 2 freezers to stockpile food. Some college age still think they’re invincible and won’t get sick. CH before current pandemic, in a lesson on Black Death I gave students links to articles about different epidemics (with most recent being Ebola in 2014-5) and ask them to think about how (if) our reactions to disease are different today compared to past and why.IM did you see that video about a guy being assaulted by police and physically taken off a bus for not having a mask. I do think public health is more important than individual liberty to BBQ but we also need to find ways to humanely limit the spread of a pandemic.DUQ4 how did people’s understanding of medicine and science in 1918 make it difficult to diagnose and treat the flu?IM A4 it was interesting to read about mistrust of western science, and some people’s preferences to turn to prayer and nailing scissors on top of the doorway to keep the virus demons away. IM A4 both in 1918 and today, people have asked ‘what message is God sending us?’ In difficult times, religion provides a hearing and hopeful community. But religion and science sometimes offer competing explanations JV A4 problem even now is how do you diagnose for certain without testing? (and what is the difference between a virus and a bacterium?)CH (to JV) and people’s understanding that antibiotics don’t work on viruses.TM A4 our pres thinks a virus can be treated by antibiotics. Interesting that they used quinine for some patients. Things like Epsom salt were harked and ideas that inhling cigarette smoke might help today people are talking about herd imunity without a vaccine.JW A4 I see people today less tolerant when doctors don’t know everything. So for example the evolving masks advice, decried by many as scientist ‘lyin’. It’s a novel virus folks. As they learn more they change the advice.MTA4 how far we’ve come with science and medicine is amazing but I think now we put too much emphasis on doctors and medicines that when we don’t have a cure people panic.CH A4 there was really only very theoretical understanding on few peoples parts, it seemed, that something like viruses even existed. They could treat or manage some symptoms, but even that was pretty difficult because of lack of understanding of underlying source.MT (to CH) yes and from some old book from the 1980s that predicted it coming from Wuhan. Or that Bill Gates created it in order to prove his TED talk correct. MT A4 I also thought that the part about placebo/nocebo was really interesting. Also the black wedding! I had never heard about that. I can’t believe that was only 100 years ago.DU all those different possible cures – aspirin, quinine, mercury, bloodletting etc. reminded me of the current obsession with chloroquine.DU Q5 How did religious beliefs influence peoples responses to the flu pandemic?MT practicing religion doesn’t have to mean going to a building. You can practice anywhere. No one is stopping that.MTA5 I thought it was interesting that quarantine is mentioned in the Bible. Maybe we could use that as an argument.CH A5 thought it was interesting that some missionaries and nuns were very involved in trying to help take up some slack in areas with few doctors or nurses (city in Persia) or may have helped spread disease (Alaska – though sounded like fishing crews had big role). CH noted this NYTimes world ‘priests are saddened that they cannot get closer, that the last touch the faithful feel is a gloved one, that the last face they see is often on a screen, that they are distanced from their flock when they are needed most’MT (to TM and DU) all of these seem like examples of religion being used for power.DU (to MT) interesting questions. I think they did it during the Ebola outbreak. DU Q6 How surprised do you think people were that a pandemic like this could happen today? What parallels do you see between covid19 and the Spanish flu. IMA6 I think average citizens were taken completely by surprise – maybe were overconfident in our advances in medicine and science. The pandemic has definitely been humbling, showing vulnerabilities in our societiesTM A6 the data about black and latino cases not a surprise considering the systemic racism that led to inadequate healthcare and health issues: asthma, hypertension/diabetes etc in urban areas. Too many of us have lied in a bubble not wanting to see these issues.IM (to CH) it just reinforces to me how important the study of history is! This is a time when we really could have learned a lot from the past! I think part 4 should be required reading for all govenrnment officials.JV A6 despite warnings from science, epidemiology, literature...and then China, the pandemic still seemed like a shock. Even now!DU (to JV) warnings were definitely there. I was scrolling back through texts the other day and my friend and I were like ‘what if?’ back in January.MT (to JV) I think we just think were in America and those types of things don’t happen to us!JW (to JV) this is a leadership role isn’t it? Communicating the gravity?DUQ7 lets share some teaching ideas! What’s a good service learning or community service project you could assign related to the covid19 pandemic? IM A7 donating masks, food and supplies. Chalking hopeful messages on sidewalks and taping uplifting words and art on windows facing the neighbourhoodIM A7 Maybe some advocacy work? Students can write letters to public officials, or create petitions, or social media campaigns about ‘creating a better future using lessons learned from covid19TM A7 difficult to plan with my urban stds. Some sit outside our school to get wifi service. Many are fearful for their family members who travel to NYC each day to work in service jobs which are underpaid but now deemed essential. Many rely on the meals distributed. IM Hey UCBerkeley is having a series of pandemic-related webinars. Check this one out today. Global views on covid 19: lessons from the 1918 flu pandemic in India and Indonesia events.berkeley/edu/index.php/cale...DUA7 I love a lot of these ideas! I’d also like to see students do some research on why its hitting certain communities harder (African Americans, latinos, native Americans)DU check out this awesome DBQ that Brian Sheehy put together it asks student to compare responses to the 1918 pandemic w covid. History tunes (to MT) don’t forget music historytimesDU Thank you everyone who joined the discussion this week. And big thanks to my co-hosts IM and MT for submitting awesome questions Pale Rider #sschatreads 18 April parts 5-6MT Introduce yourself, your grade and position and then what are you most looking forward to when the restrictions are lifted.CH Since I was teaching online anyway, I am most looking forward to eating at a restaurant (hubs and I used to have weekly lunch dates) and going to eventsIM Hey everyone I’m Isabel history teacher from LA. I dreamt that I was at a restaurant, so I’m looking forward to that!MT (to IM and Spinney) thats what Im most looking forward to too.DU Hi everyone. This is Dennis from Long Island. I teach high school social studies. I’m mostly looking forward to seeing family and going to the movies. JV Enjoying these chats but looking forward to hugging family most of all.TM I’m Theresa from NJ. When the restrictions are lifted by my Governor, I look forward to visiting with my family and ftf lessons with my students even if I have to wait till the fall.JC Most looking forward to just relishing the freedom to choose what I want to do and be spontaneous.JW GM everyone. I’m looking forward to the DMV opening so my 17 year old can take her cancelled driving testMTQ1 There are many theories about the origins of the Spanish flu. Which one’s made the most sense to you?JVA1 I think her explanations are great, and she also makes it clear that research and discovery continues and that we have a very intimate history with influenza.DU (to JV) Yes that that last line in the chapter: one final possibility: that none of the three theories is correct, and the real origin of the pandemic has yet to be proposed.BSA1 Agree the Kansas theory makes the most sense. The transport of troops really influenced the spread.JWA1 I am shallow and petty enough to admit that I want the Kansas story to be true because the US has a habit of trying to blame other countries/immigrants for importing disease.MTA1 I think the Kansas theory makes the most sense. It seemed to be a perfect story and I think we are due to getting a pandemic blamed on us for a change.CHA1 I thought it was interesting that there were multiple possible originsJWA1 Not an answer to the question, I think this was the hardest chapter to read and not drift into the present. It made it hard to assimilate the information because of my issues with the current discussions of todays’ pandemic.DUA1 I agree with JW. This was a tough chapter, and Im not sure about this one, as all three original theories (China, France, US) have their problems. I did learn a lot about the CLC which was fascinating.IM A1 As our animal husbandry processes changed, so too did our ability to contract diseases from one another.CH A1 I thought it was interesting that there were multiple possible origins (Kansas, Etaples, China)CH I also thought the discussion of how they rebuilt the virus in order to try to determine origin was really fascinating and kind of scary. Not sure it was in this part though.IM (to BS and MT) yup the virus followed the flow of humans across borders and oceans. That’s why lockdowns, back then and now make sense).TMA1 I think there were many possibilities but the least likely was the use of Chinese labourers during WW1. We may never be able to pinpoint patient zero.MT (to TM) thats true. In all my studies of WW1 I dind tknow about htis Chinese labor connection.JCA1 I think the author made a good case for the US. I know it matters to a scientist, but to the rest of us, we are more engaged with dealing with a pandemic in the present.MT (to DU) YES that whole section about experimentation was disturbing but this especially. I love science and all, but not this much. (commenting on self-experimentation)MTQ2 why has it been so difficult ot pin down mortality rates for 1918? Do you think that it will be challenging for COVID19DUA2 Lots of reasons this was difficult: unclear origins, false or inaccurate reporting where how people die, challenges defining the epidemic (esp in China) advances in science, research methods, and statistical analysis etc. MT A2 Also there’s the issue of you dying because of something related to the virus. You didn’t die from the virus exactly, but you wouldn’t have died without it either...CH Yes Also curious as to the number of deatsh there may be of people who didn’t have it but coudn’t get access to emergency or other care because of overwhelm in medical systems. JVA2 reporting, data collecting, population size and density affect what information you get. Calculating mortality rate, asymptomatic cases are affected by how good screening/testing are. Key to understanding spread during and after.DUA2 For covid19, we can’t even pin down the number of cases because of inadequate testing. The number of cases and deaths are likely much higher than we know. Check out this Stanford study: sanfracnicso.cbslocal/com2020/04/18/coron...CHA2 There was often not infrastructure nor ability to count deaths or keep up with them. Since they didn’t know about viruses in 1918 (apart from hypotheses) it would’ve been really hard to accurately track deaths because of it. Think it will be easier in some ways today. IM (to DU) Yea, back then the understanding of the flu were still developing. People didn’t know it was caused by a virus. Not possible to lab-confirm that deaths were die to the flu back then. And lots of misdiagnoses.CH (to JC IM DU. Yes the short incubation period also seemed to make it ‘burn through’ a population faster than covidIMA2 This will definitely be challenging today, as the numbers in lots of places only reflect deaths taking place in hospitals. Also, some people died before being tested, so they may not be counted in the official mortality rates.BS A2 I think we are already seeing how difficult it is to find real numbers and real causes of death.MTA2 It seemed to be difficult because there were no global measures in place. I see this same problem today, like with NYC adding 10k this week. It’s hard to keep track in the middle of something like this.JCA2 The issues worldwide with testing means that not every death is a confirmed case. I think the only way we’ll know is to consider excess deaths during the outbreak peals.JW IN terms of US data at the time, I would wonder about disparities in testing. Were women tested as often as men for example?IMA3 I’ll be curious to see if cases increase after the protests I’ve been reading about in the US. Its a bit strange to see. MT (to IM) my friends and I were just talking about that. So bizarre. Also, I’m looking to see if there will be a spike two weeks from Easter. Rural states that didn’t have lockdowns in effect are starting to see spikes now. Luckily our gov shut us down early.MT (to DU and Stanford). Thats the one thing making me feel better about the death rate being so high. If the number of people who were actually infected were reported that stat would be a lot lower. You’d think that alone would be motivating to get more tests.DU (to JW) oh yeah she did discuss how in certain areas there were gender differences in terms of infections and deaths so that makes sense.JC (to DU) I agree. I also think it’s hard to pin down, because like today, people were eager to move on, to open for business etc to broadly proclaim the real number of deaths would not serve the purpose of jumpstarting life.CH (to JW) good question. I also thought the issue of many immigrants being distrustful (rightly so, in many cases) of the medical establishment was interesting.TMA3 just read that a plane deporting undocumented immigrants returned to Guatemala and contained people that tested +. Pressure to reopen the economy and relax shelter guidelines may negatively impact spread.MT (to CH and JW) and still an issue. If I’m sick and illegal today, I wouldn’t risk going to the hospital where I could get deported. That’s just going to cause further spread because they also can’t afford to stay home.CH (to DU MT IM) yes and after voting in Wisconsin the week before last.TM(to MT) problem lies in the way deaths were reported, sometimes the cause of death was recorded separately and many of those records have disappeared. Covid death rates are contingent on whether you include people who were presumed to have it even if it hadn’t been tested. JWA” Oh shucks, didn’t the news totally help us understand this area? We have no idea whether the information from China is reliable because of politics and geography. We know the data in the US are inaccurate because of limited testing and states repressing data.MT (to DU, CH and Stanford) I’m at least proud that our (Maine) senator King told him (Pence) on the call the other day that it’s a dereliction of duty to not have nationwide testingBS Yup I’ll be heading to Maine and hanging out in Portland hahaBG (to DU BS)Fair to say we can use history and science to predict what will happen. Social distancing works MT (to IM and BS) wow! When our state first locked down we got a letter from our headmaster in case we needed to come to school so we could show the police. But our police have said they aren’t pulling anyone over for that. I think they should be.DU (to CH, MT and Stanford) that’s it. That’s been the answer from the beginning –limit testing to keep the numbers down. Pence has been telling congress/sttes that testing is adequate, even though it is about 1/3 what it should be for gradual reopening (nytimes. Com Corona virus testing needs to triple before the US can reopen)JC (to IM and DU) Spanish flu killed those it infected about 2 days after symptoms appeared. That speed would have made it unlikely that many cases would get diagnosed and be counted initially.MT (to CH) I hadn’t thought of that either. So true. Or who didn’t want to go to the ER for fear they would get it.MTQ3 In what ways did humans shape the course of the pandemic? How are we shaping it today?JCA3 I think humans shape an epidemic in unintentional ways. For ex, our beaches here in Jax reopened yesterday. We have 1600 cases in NEFL. But if you ask random people they’re unclear if you should wear a mask outdoors. Not their fault. It’s a lack of education.DU A3 I really enjoyed the part about how ‘culture shaped biology’ (p206). In some countries, men went out to work more than women, so their mortality rate was higher. But in other places, like India, women suffered a higher mortality because of neglect. BSA3 I think the response each country, state etc has had and the serious nature and preparation countries have instituted and influenced the direction the pandemic went/goes in.TM (to MT) exactly what I’m worried about today. So angry with Dr Phill and Dr Oz for thinking it’s OK to sacrifice portion of the population.CHA3 Travel was a big one. Also religions practices (the town in Spain that was particularly hard hit as the local priest emphasised attending of services). Diet and where people lived were also mentioned.MTA3 I found the parts about human experimentation to show how we were /could shaping/shape a pandemic But I guess that’s how progress happens.JVA3 for covid19 the differences between countries in terms of stats and policy/behaviour do suggest that there is some shaping going on!CH (to JV) sooo true. George Santayana might have something to say about that.IM (to BS) Yup . Germany has been superstrict. My husband got stopped by the police and was told to quarantine for 2 weeks. His name is now in a system and if he gets caught he faces a big fine. But their graph is looking good – they’re on the downward part of the curve.IM (to MT and BS) Germany’s leader also has a doctorate in quantum chemistry and understands research and science. Not all leaders have this background, but it definitely helps!MT (to CH) Yes I was like – no don’t do it! This is the part of the moveie that always goes wrong!DU (to BS) And we’ll see what impact the ‘opening up of GOP-led states has on the course of the overall course of the virus today.MT (to JV and DU) I doubt they’ll be spending much time on that in the future. Too busy trying to untangle the cause of this one.MT (o IM and BS) yes! Also why I’m mystified by a state by state reopening. Guess what’s going to happen to Maine when we reopen and NY, NJ are still closed. They are already coming, imagine if they were enticed with open restaurants and movie theatres. CH (to IM, BS MT) andhow viruses don’t ‘respect’ borders, don’t target specific groups etc. There is no intention, just the impetus to replicate dna and survive. MTQ4 Calling out ths ecience teachers? Any ideas/resources for how we could pair up with our sci depts. to teach this important topic. Q4 Chapter 6 has a lot of opportunities to pair up with science teachers. Any ideas/resources for how this could be done?TM A4 False claims at first ‘people of color may be immune to the coronavirus because of melanin’ read the headline of one article from , shared on FBJVA4 the bookclub format encouarges cross-disciplinary collaboration and discussion. Using fiction especially allows discussion of scientific principles without seeming ‘difficult’ everyone has something to say.DUA4 Would be good idea to team up with stats teachers too, for a better understanding of graphs and modellingCH I’m in very small bookclub for work where we are discussing the last days of midnight. I have mentioned Paler Rider in our last 2 meetings and I think at least one or two people are going to read it now.MTA4 When I team-taught we used to do a book study on smallpox. I would hope the ELA/SS and se would hit the SCI/MATH. Harder to do in HS but could be done with some planning.JC A4 Match up SS, Sci and the arts. If you really want to impact others with whatever comes out of the project.CHA4 In 7th grade, my daughter’ science class (accelerated sci) chose from diff books about disease. She and I read Polio: an American story which was really fascinating. Think there is a lot of possibility with data analysis, migration/movement, gov and other services.TMA4 Biology teachers could be used to research eugenics and impact on 1918 and myths held by Af-Ams at first that they were immune to covid 19IM This article talks about the power of science classes in clearing up misconceptions (what science classes are teaching students about coronavirus )BG (to DU and BS) post-game analysis needed here. We need to teach this kind of statistical and scientific knowledge in schools. Can be done in history, science, math. We need to do this in context so people understand how to be preventative not reactive.MTQ5 How were social inequalities reflected in the mortality rates of the 1918 pandemic? Parallels to today? DUA5 I’d like to see more research on its impact on African Americans. Spinney writes that they weren’t severely affected and that it ‘remains puzzling today’ (p204). In light of what we know about COVID impact on AA communities, this needs further explorationCHA5 This stood out to me when I was reading about how statisticians were confused about high death rates in wealthy neighbourhoods of Paris but victims were mostly servants working and living in tight quartersJV A5 It is rather depressing making comparisons with 100 years ago. What have we not learned.Beth Gryczewski (to JV) The importance of history. The importance of education. The importance of not reinventing the wheel. Humanity.MTA5 It was startling how you could basically track the virus spread by income level and ethnicity. I saw lot of parallels between what Italians were going through then to African Americans today.TM A5 factor why the coronavirus more devastating for Af-Am is that they experience high levels of stress-mediated wear and tear known as ‘weathering’ said Arline Geronimus, a professor of public health at the University of Michigan who studies the concept.BS A5 groups then and now that are neglected and marginalised suffer the most. See DU answer about women in India.IM A5 I was struck by the fact that the wealthiest neighbourhoods in France had the highest death rates but it was the servants living in close quarters who were dying, not their affluent employers. ? of women who died in Paris were maids.IM And today we are seeing that working class ppl who are considered essential workers (grocery store employees, delivery truck drivers) are at high risk for exposure. This has been really stressful for low-income communities who can’t ‘work from home’ MT I hope this becomes a way we can talk about raising the federal minimum wage to a living standard. People who are risking their lives for us should be able to make a living....CH I am curious to see what sort of changes in politics economics etc the pandemic may lead to IM Im curious too. I think (and hope) we’ll see some huge shifts. It’s not possible to go through this huge collective global trauma unchanged.CH (to IM) yes so very true. Then pandemic is really shining a harsh light on what is really essential vs how we as a society pay and treat those doing the essential work.BS (to TM DU IM) one can hope that there could be more equity in healthcare and in the whole economic and political landscape – only time will tell.BS I’ve been thinking a lot of this – do you think this will alter our society and show the importance of certain jobs and the lack thereof of others? I doubt it but...MT (to IM) I hope this becomes a way we can talk about raising the federal minimum wage to a living standard. People who are risking their lives for us should be able to make a living. My Ss who work at grocery stores tell me they’ve been given a $3/hr pay bonus.CH I agree that it is hard to be optimistic about this given past failures.DU (to BS and IM) Really good question. It’ll be interesting to see what permanent economic changes emerge from current pandemic.MTQ6 Is there anything you would like to discuss that we didn’t get to with a question?DUA6 Anyone else find this really gross (self-infecting and documenting)MTA6 Seriously I’d like to talk about the part in Ch 15 where they are warning about the timing being critical of lifting the measures too soon. Hoping we don’t regret the new 3 phase plan.CHA6 That whole learning from history thing that’s been mentioned a few times already.MTA6 I’d like to discuss how I feel my life-long hatred of birds has been completely justified by this section .LOLTM A6 It was unnerving to read the chapter ‘beware the barnyard’. Seems like an argument to become a vegetarian and I wonder if these animals to humans and vice versa will continue to plague us.JV A6 when the aetiological agents of disease were unknown, how brave were the scientists who exposed themselves. How do you prove Kochs postulates? True for so many disease even more recently, up to Helicopacter pylori (liked by H pylori)GoodbyesCH I am so enjoying this book discussion Hope it’s something we can do going forward with other books. Thanks so much to the mods as it takes time to p;repare for chats.MT Thank you for joining todayIM Good chat I enjoyed hearing everyone’s thoughts. Stay safe and see you next week.TM Good chat. Thank you for moderating. Stay safe and only listen to reliable medical information. Exactly why we teach historical thinking skills like corroboration.JV Thanks all, yet again. I am going to use Pale Rider for my /badbugsbookclub in May. See you next week.Pale Rider #sschatreads 18 April parts 5-6IM welcome to our last [..]....warm up: introduce yourself and share one way in which your thinking has changed as a result of living through this historic moment. I’m Isabel, history teacher from (etc)...I’ve really started to think about what is and isn’t essential to my life, and I’ve also gained a bigger appreciation for nature watching.TM I’m Teresa from NJ and I’m a high school US history teacher and sometimes curriculum writer. I have always respected how the past influences the present but now awed by the correlation to current pandemic.DU Hi everyone this is Dennis (etc.) and I don’t want to brag but the author retweeted me today. Also this book has got me thinking that covid is long from over. Hope I’m wrong.JV learned to be thankful for smaller thingsMT I’m Kate Kennedy....my thinking has changed to not spend so much time on work. I’m trying to take better care of myself. DU to MT after a month of eating Easter candy, I’m realising my body has its limitsIMQ1 Fertility rates boomed after the 1918 flu. Do you think this was more tied to the flu or the war? Do you think that this will happen today? DUA1I was really surprised by the impact that the flu had on this ‘diminished generation’ of babies (height, health etc)IM Yeah I had no idea about this! Stress took its toll in the womb. MTA1 I’m thinking that it was more tied to the war than the flu since we saw something similar after WW11. However, I’m thinking there’s gonna be a huge baby boom after this keeping us all employed. CHA1 I thought this was really interesting. On p216, the author says that some think the remaining population after the pandemic was healthier so were able to reproduce at higher rates. Baby booms were seen in neutral countries as well (Norway)MT (to CH) I thought that part was really interesting too. More fertility, not just stuck at home or feeling the fragility of life.IM (to MT) all the covid memes in march kept joking that we’d see an increase in birth rates as a result of so much confinement. We’ll see what happens with our birth rate. CH (to MT – baby boom) I am curious about this as well. My daughtter’s class (8th gr) is so much bigger than the classes immediately before and after hers in our local district. It sounds like there’s going to be a pretty big decrease soon in college age students. MT (to CH) I wondered about what happened in your area 13 years ago. Maine saw a big increase after the ice storm of 1998. Michael Nardi (to CH) interesting book on the drop in the number of US high school graduates, demographics and the demand for higher education by Nathan GraweDUA1 It’s a possibility but theres’ also big fear of going to the hospital. My friend just gave birth yesterday and she was terrified of having to go. So I think it depends on how long the fear of coronavirus sticks around. TMA1 boom always attributed to postwar reactions but the book as alerted me to the impact of the flu in 1918. Rates may also increase as a result of the stay at home guidelines but the current availability of birth control methods may lead to much lower than in 1920s.Eric Beckman (to CH). Serendipity. Saw this tweet just after a student used the graphic below in a reflection on the effects of WW1. Sows birth rate for 5 European countries. JVA1 end of the war celebrations in 1918, where as this is different, with lockdown...a different type of togetherness. Will see how that affects birthrate. IMQ2 what were some of the non-illness related consequences of the 1918 flu. Will we see similar outcomes with covid19?IM I was surprised and saddened to read about the long-lasting mental health effects of the 1918 pandemic. It was rather depressing actually, and problematizes the notion that we can go back to normal after this. TM (to IM) reports from covid survivors document the persistent fatigue and those sheltering at home are showing signs or depression.IM did you all catch DT’s name in this section? He and his mother received their inheritance after the grandfather died of the flu. (several yes responses)CH the loss of local languages (90% mortality in parts of the Vanuatu archipelago) and cultural loss (institutionalisation of orphans)TMQ2 loss of native culture as shown in Alaska, rise of homeopathic healing, rise of socialised medicine. The reports of melancholy and post viral fatigue/lethargy are all things we may see now. IM yeah, reading about long-term cultural loss really made me sadMT A2 there was also an increase in Christian scientists who said that prayer was enough. Smoking also flourishing because people thought it helped them. We are seeing the rise of crazy cures today tooJWA2 I’m not going to lie. I almost had to stop reading the part about mental health repercussions. We really just don’t know what lies ahead of us.MT (to JW) yes! Increase in depression. A reversible schizophrenia. Scary stuff!IM (to JW) seriously. It was not what I wanted to hear at the moment. Although I guess it gives me something else to expect and brace myself for...important to know for ourselves and our students!TM (to IM) reports from covid19 survivors document the persistent fatigue and those sheltering at home are showing signs of depression.MT (to DU) thats true! And we still have a lot of stigma with mental health. People aren’t strong enough mentally. IM (to CH and MT) I’m curious about the long-term effects on a ‘society recovering from the shock of the plague’.MTA2 the thing I was most interested in was that the 1920s saw many countries going to a healthcare for all system, this could be the moment for us!( she says sceptically but hopefully).IM It’s such a stressful time to be pregnant or give birth. I agree that it’s also as scary time to go to a doctor or hospital right now.DU A2 I found the chapter on art really fascinating, how illness ‘moved to the centre-stage in literature’. With literature and some forms of art, we’ll see a delayed effect from covid, but a lot of musicians come together now for concerts and early album releases.JV (to DU) fiction about 1918 flu seems to have been more prevalent in recent decades than immediately after the pandemic. Culture shock? But I think there will be a lot of covid art/literature...as there already is. DU I agree. And you’re right, there’s been a lot written about the topic in the past 20 years, which @lfspinney points out. DUA2 related, with all movie releases being delayed, will we view those differently post-covid.MT (to DU) and the people being able to watch them in the house. They may not want to go to the movies as often.MTA2 for every flu death, 4 people moved into the poorhouse! What will that be today? Looking at those lines at food pantries has me worried. Also the part about languages being lost.CHA2 the part about the large number of orphans perhaps contributing to changes in laws around adoptions was an issue that stood out to me.IMQ3 according to Spinney, Germans thought the flu stole their victory. Do you think the flu had an effect on the war? The peace?IM both sides were affected by the war but some historians argue that the flu unleashed the Central Powers more, affecting the outcome of the war.IM I was also interested to read about how the flu affected the peace process, which was going on at the same time as the third wave. Some leaders and their loved ones had personally been affected by the flu. This must have affected the processCHA3 I thought that part (effect on troops and supplies) was really interesting and something I hadn’t thought about before. I think Margaret Macmillan discusses the flu some in her book about the peace negotiations (Paris 1919)TM (to IM) A3 absolutely – Central Powers were on offensive till mid April when flu hit. Peace efforts impacted by third wave – Wilson contracts it and mini strokes then massive one in October, post war use of martial law in India affects Ghandi’s movement.MT I had no idea about the Ghandi stuff. That was really interesting. DUA3 I always teach about Wilson’s stroke and how it derailed his ability to persuade the Senate to ratify the Versailles treaty, but I never know the stroke was related to ‘his earlier bout of flu’ (p251)MTA3 as far as the peace goes, I think if Wilson had been better able to negotiate for the league we would have seen a different outcome years later.MTA3 I think the flu definitely had an effect on the outcome of the war. Even though it affected all sides, it exacerbated the struggles that the Germans were already experiencing.JV A3 I liked how the focus was on the world rather than ‘just’ the war. There seemed to be many global impacts.IMQ4 Spinney discusses the ‘alternative histories’ that resulted from the 1918 pandemic. Do you think our students will have alternative histories as a result of covid. IM like in 1918 today ppl are experiencing this pandemic differently and will tell different versions of the story. Our students are facing tons of uncertainty about school housing, finance.TM (to IM) lines of perspective – 1918 flu was told by white society. Quote in book ‘meaning comes with distance’. Covid 19 effects vary by demographics – many students will have diff story to tell than suburbia. MTA4 I’ve been having ss journaling a couple times a week since we left school and some are having a blast. Spending time outdoors. Others have parents who are healthcare workers and are terrified. Others have parents who’ve lost jobs, It runs the gamut.MTA4 I wonder if this generation of students will always be running ‘alternative history’ scenarios. They already have off the chart anxiety levels. This can’t be helping.CHA4 I think so, especially for older students who will be missing some key milestone moments but also likely having harder times getting first jobs out of university, perhaps starting new relationships etc. will people put off having children?MrMiraglya Students’ covid history journals tell a story of perspectives on the outside world, struggles and routine DUA4 here, I’m thinking about Spinney’s section about ’what might have been’ (p229) and how covid will affect students in high school or college, especially if there’s another lockdown in the fall. JW My concern is the current students. They took a severe financial hit this semester, have limited changes to work this summer and many may pass on fall if its distance learning. Interrupted educations often are not resumed.CH I agree that those are important points of concern. Also how many students for whom distance or online learning does not work well will just stop taking course. JW I know several students and my daughter’s college dropped courses.JW some said it was an inability to adjust to the new environment. But I wonder if there is variation by major . My kid is is a sociology major. She’s OK. But calculus? Nursing? Chemistry? How do you learn that via distance learning?IM (to MT) yeah – and for seniors...aside from processing that they’re not having a prom or graduation, they also wonder whether they’re even going to physically go to college, or whether they’ll be academically ready. IM (to CH, JW) I feel for anyone who is training to be a teacher right now. So many veteran teachers are feeling overwhelmed. Imagine student teaching in that environment? They might burn out really quick or decide that teaching isn’t for them.CH (to JW) that makes sense. And what is going to happen with teacher education? How will pre-service teachers do observations? Will they be able to student teach in online settings?MT I’ve got a friend who is graduating and is trying to get a teaching job right now. I can’t even imagine the uncertainty. MT (to JW and CH) that’s true. I have another friend who is retiring this year and I think that’s a really weird way to end your 40 year teaching career, but if I was in the high risk group I wouldn’t want to be crammed into a room with 25 kids. CH (to MT) so true. I wonder if this could lead to schools-communities doing more with work around care though, of course that will take money which is likely to be in shorter supply with declining tax revenues.IM(to CH) I wrote my dissertation on educational debt and the way it pushed back age of marriage and homeownership. Now add a pandemic to the mix.CH decrease in college age students in near future not because of the pandemic but just demographic change. JVA4 I think this will have an impact on a generation. It will not be easily or quickly passed by.MT ‘alternative facts’ Ahhh! This stuff has made our teaching so much harder. If we can’t even agree on a baseline of facts, where do you even go?TM (to MT) President introduced them to alternative facts and fake news.MT (to JW) there’s even a conspiracy theory going around that it was designed to take out the baby boom generation because they are a drain on the system. TM ‘young people with coronavirus are dying from strokes’ the Washington Post. IMQ5 what impact did the 1918 pandemic have on healthcare systems around the world? What are your hopes and predictions for 2020?IM wouldn’t it be cool if after this healthcare was a basic right in the US that wasn’t tied to condition of employment?DU you’d think 20+million people losing their jobs would have an impact on this model. MT wouldn’t that be something. There are so many women in Maine who only work so that they can give their fisherman husbands and children healthcare. They would much rather be at home raising their kids. TM (to IM) A5 led to 2 decades of intro of alternative medicines – homeopathy 1920s Russia has centralised medicine, by 1930 study of virology and first flu vaccine, focus on disease data and NHS in Britain. US will resist any socialist plot in response to healthcare reform. CHA5 There seemed to be a direct link to many countries going to nationalised healthcare more structured forms of data collection. I hope current situation leads people to see that we need to invest in preparation for pandemics even when they are not happening.JVA5 I hope that our NHS and social care are valued and funded appropriately forever.MT (to JV) I value them and wish we had them her in the states. Unfortunately, they have a bad rep here. TM another article that pertains to our discussion about the 1918 pandemic and the need to understand human behaviour. Coronavirus: why Americans see disease as a personal failure. DUA5 something to consider. Ch19 begins ‘health authorities ...[learned] it was no longer reasonable to blame an individual for catching an infectious disease’ - this isn’t the case for all diseases. Look at the AIDS crisis: it was all about blaming people.JWQ5 my concern for this go-around is that the pattern has been to disregard the danger because of the demographics of who was affected. That makes me less hopeful that we will see long-term change.MTA5 I thought it was really interesting that the 1924 Soviet vision of medicine called for doctors to look at occupational and social conditions which cause illness. So prevent, not just treat, what a conceptDUA5 I loved ch 19, and how many governments embraced some form of universal healthcare after the pandemic. As I said during a previous session, I hope covid pushes the US to reform its healthcare system. IM (to DU) I think you’re right about the covid thing...if history has anything to say about this, then we’ll be dealing with it and its aftermath for a long time.JW (to DU and IM) maybe we need a Governors and Legislators version of #sschatreads.MT (to JW and DU) wouldn’t it be cool if every elected official had a book blog of what they were reading DU (to MT) yes the anti-science backlash! Not what I was expecting. Now I just assume those groups are already there and this gives them a new platform (eg antivaxxers getting arrested for protesting in parks)IMQ6 How did the 1918 pandemic illuminate injustices related to capitalism and colonialism?IM Colonised people were more likely to die from the flu than their colonisers (eg Korea and Japan)IM pandemics highlight social injustices, both in 1918 and today.TM (to IM) A6 information tells the story of the 1918 flu-censorship and downplaying danger failed the people. Coloniaism /racism blamed for death rates in india. After war Africa looks to Russia for example of health systems. Strikes, protests/revolution follow decades after.DU I was wondering if the flu had any impact on the widespread strikes in the US in 1919 but didn’t see any mention of it. JW but this is decidedly not a US-focused book for better and for worse. We may need to look elsewhere for that. As well as more on how we did not get larger public health plans out of this.DU I’m picking up on quite a few things that could be the subjects of further historical research, an indication of how shallow the field isCHA6 it really showed the lack of concern colonial governments had for the people of the colonies (that weren’t of the controlling country) in terms of health care, food security etc.DU yep, as Spinney points out, they paid a price for ignoring the health of people living in the colonies ‘they were absolutely unequipped to deal with disaster (p256)MT (to DU) you would think they would want a strong workforce. It doesn’t even make sense.DUA6 That section on Ghandi was really good, and I hadn’t considered the connection between the Spanish flu and the Amritsar massacre. Another good point: colonial authorities could no longer ignore indigenous health (p256)CH It was interesting that the flu both hurt colonial ruling powers (lack of care for people) but also independence movements. If not for the flu, would colonial independence have started to be successful after WW1 than WW11IMQ7 why is it important to tell the story of the 1918 pandemic? How will we tell the story of the current pandemic?JWA7 I think we tend to stick in our academic silos a lot. This book is a great example of that being poor historical practice. We need to work with other fields to understand history better. JVA7 so much resonance from 100 years ago, yet also differences. A different virus of course, more global movement of people, more communication, different expectations..perhaps a longer memoryCH (to JV) I wonder if increased literacy rates, people being able to ‘see’ or get a sense of what others are experiencing through news, social media etc may help the memory ot the current pandemic last longer/be stronger than that of the 1918 pandemic. MTA7 I think it’s important because it shaped so much of the world we live in without us realising and because it still has lessons to teach us.CH A7 the 1918 pandemic affected nearly everyone on the planet in some way. It had effects on politics, culture, economics etc. we can learn from mistakes that were made (stopping quarantines too early for example)TMA7 I want to force our pol leaders and those in healthcare to read this book! Debates rage now about ‘second wave’ and mental health issues will affect many in months/years to come. Student journals will help tell the story – archives must seek out diverse perspectives.DUA7 It has become pretty clear to me that many elected leaders haven’t done their homework on pandemics. There’s a lot in this book that could’ve guided their responses to Covid19MT (to DU) Agreed! And people have been warning for years! It’s easy to ignore what’s not right in your face I guess.TM (to JW and DU) WHO held a virtual meeting on Friday in which global heads of state vowed cooperation coronavirus vaccine research - US and China did not attend!DU (to JW) fair point, but you could argue that much of what they did was reactive, not proactive. Also a leadership problem.GoodbyesIM thanks for chatting everyone. It was nice to learn and process this moment with all of you. Shout out to MT and DU for co-hosting this chat.CH thanks so much for this awesome chat and organising this whole thing – and keeping it going!DU thanks everyone this has been a blastJV bye!I have really enjoyed meeting you all and will miss you. Take care. #badbugsbookclub meeting 4.00 gmt on may 20DU (to JV) thanks for comingJV And thank you for doing this. Great questions and discussion. Multidisciplinary approach always an excellent one. ................
................

In order to avoid copyright disputes, this page is only a partial summary.

Google Online Preview   Download