That Witch Life



Episode 48: Mushroom Magick With AnjelFri, 8/28 12:11PM ? 1:15:43SUMMARY KEYWORDSpsilocybin, witch, people, fungi, mushrooms, witchcraft, science, anjel, podcast, incredible, life, world, listener, full moon, pisces, witchy, candles, friends, therapy, oregonSPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Anjel, The Husband, (Exit Music)Courtney 00:00Hey witches, it's Courtney. Today we're talking with Anjel who is not only a fabulous witch and scientist, they are also an advocate for a measure legalizing psilocybin therapy. When we interviewed Anjel the measure was called ip 34 but it has since been renamed to measure 109 just wanted to give you all an update enjoy the episode panda whichIntro music 00:2720 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world, following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a witch in today's world.Kanani 01:12Well, hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of that which life podcast. This is Kanani. I will be hosting today and I am joined by my fellow co hosts, Courtney and Hillary. Courtney 01:26Hey, it's Courtney.Hilary 01:27Hey, it's Hill. Courtney 01:29Ha. Hilary 01:33What is wrong with you?Kanani 01:36That was so terrible. That was fabulous. It's so wrong it's right?Hilary 01:44Right?Courtney 01:45I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with me. At least I'm gonna stay awake forKanani 01:50this recording today. Oh promises promises. This fabulous episode. is already starting off like a train wreck. Supposedly is gonna share some Full Moon magic to help us in September. Hillary has found a badass candle hookup. And luckily Anjel Craig is coming to save the day by joining us to discuss mushroom magic.Courtney 02:19I would have bitched about the fact that Pizza Hut forgot your icing dipping sauce senseless when I paid an extra 75 cents for you to have that so listeners Kanani and family are still in quarantine for another three days or so. Hilary 02:35Till Saturday, yeah?Kanani 02:36Let's see. Okay. Yeah, three so three days after today.Courtney 02:41Okay, so yeah, so it's it's um, so we've been ordering her meals I've ordered so I ordered them some pizza hut and got them a giant cookie It was like I'll throw in the icing dipping sauce because I'm a good friend. And they forgot Not only did Kanani not get it, I'm out 75 cents and I'm pissed about it. Pizza Hut. I think you should sponsor an episode. Just to make me feel betterHilary 03:05"Just to make me feel better...."Courtney 03:07Yeah, like a bought from you twice in the last two weeks for Kanani is like, eight times as much money I've spent at Pizza Hut in a year the last two weeks.Hilary 03:15You're like listen you a holes.Courtney 03:17Where's my fucking frosting? I'm a witch man. You want to fuck with me. Don't fuck with a witch and her frosting. You do not know.Kanani 03:25No, you don't fuck with a witch and frosting.Courtney 03:28All your anchovies come alive and start rattling around in the cans. Hilary 03:32Oh my gosh. Courtney 03:33The pepperoni levitates and starts hitting you in the face.Kanani 03:37What's funny is that you insist on buying a pizza with pineapple on it. I thought that was nice. I thought that was super kind of youCourtney 03:45Yeah that was a lie. I didn't want to buy you pineapple on your pizza cuz that's an aberration abomination. That's an abomination. Hilary 03:52We've gotten so off track.Courtney 03:54We're just getting into the zoneHilary 03:56We are just getting... Okay.Kanani 04:02Hilary is just gonna leave the room now? She's like I'm over here.Hilary 04:05Yeah, I feel the zone but you knowCourtney 04:07if this is your first time listening to that witch life podcast, it's just like this every week.Hilary 04:11They're like omg I'm never listening againCourtney 04:14skip to the next one.Kanani 04:16Okay, I'm gonna try and vigorous back here. Thank you. So Courtney, what is the full moon magic that you wanted to share with us for SeptemberCourtney 04:26Okay, so I am excited for some reason. The full moons in the autumn are just so powerful. I've been I know they're powerful year round and there's something special about the bill to be able to know full moons. But the I don't know that the full moons in autumn just there's just something very special about them. So the full moon this month is on September 2. So just a couple of days after we release this. It is a full moon in Pisces. So given that Pisces is ruled by Neptune, this is a very powerful time for doing dream magic. or any kind of work to enhance your dreams. So what I would recommend is, especially if you're trying to if you're someone who struggles with dreaming or you don't get a lot of symbols, maybe your dreams are just basically repeating what happened to you during the day, but doesn't really have a lot of spiritual insight for you. This could be a very helpful moon to open some of those things up. So one of the things that we recommend doing is charging a sachet under the full moon and keeping it under your pillow. So to charge it, this may mean just holding it up to the moonlight saying a prayer over it. What you want to make sure that you do is make sure the sachet knows what its job is. So you're holding it up to the full moon light and you say, hey, you're going to soak up this full moon light and you're going to give me some powerful dreams, you're going to help me have more spiritual insight and psychic ability through these dreams. You could do the same thing with oils to rub on your temples, which is going to be very effective in creating more vivid dreams. I really like lavender. With Pisces, I don't know why I keep seeing that. Now naturally you do not want to rub undiluted lavender essential oil onto your skin, but putting a few drops into what they call a carrier oil, olive oil, almond oil or even baby oil. It's a great way to do it and then you've got psychic juice your round to put on your temples. So one thing about Pisces is Pisces is very psychic, but the messages aren't always very clear. So Neptune rules the unconscious meaning the collective unconscious. So you may find yourself connecting or dreaming of symbols that are more associated with this general collective unconscious as opposed to symbols that you may recognize. So you could be picking up on symbols that are relevant to people on the other side of the world. That happens a lot with sight with Pisces dream time. So it's really important that you write these images down because later when you find out what they are or you do a web search, you start asking around if you had some really profound experiences that way It's also a very good time to do some healing work on old wounds, as Pisces tends to attract very nostalgic things. I often think of the smashing rituals that Annwyn Avalon suggested which is like in a way of clearing away something old. So taking, say a photograph of the relationship, that's still that the memory of it still hurts you smooshing it in water, putting the water out, making sure that the picture disintegrates in the water before throwing it away. Or, you know, writing down a memory that was particularly painful smashing that and throwing that away. But the the challenge of this even if something is decades old, this can be a very powerful working during this time, but it's really important to keep your intention firm. Because Pisces is very nostalgic that energy can lead us to have a hard time of letting things go. So you can find yourself thinking about this relationship you had 15 years ago where they really left you with some baggage you still find yourself working through. Make sure you don't get stuck. Stuck in thinking about that ex like plotting your revenge trying to find them on social media so you can write something evil on their wall. That's not what this time is about this time is about bring it to the surface and then let it go. Make sure you'd make some room for tears. Don't criticize yourself if you're crying over something someone said to you in the third grade, it's time for it to come up and go remember Neptune in Pisces, that stuff from deep beneath the surface that needs to come on up and get and get gone and give you some freedom. So I also think this is a really good time to focus on finding inspiration or direction in your spiritual or magical journey. So doing a full moon ritual asking the powers of Neptune or any of the lunar or oceanic deities. Neptune's not specifically a lunar deity but because they rules the depth and the ocean which is associated with Pisces, it's a good one to call in. But again, any lunar or oceanic deity is really good at helpful to to bring this this to you and ask for them to help you find your way To the greater mysteries or go deeper into your witchcraft practice. If you have a specific ritual you do anything will do. But sometimes just standing in that full moon light, chanting the name of the god or goddess that you want to help you, and then asking them for that help is incredibly powerful. I've had some very powerful experiences, just standing in my backyard chanting to Diana, just because I want to feel that energy and get better in touch with her. So also in North America, the full moon in September is often called the Harvest Moon. But in one out of every three years, when the September Full Moon falls far ahead of the autumn equinox, it's called a corn moon. And guess what this year is one of those unstandard years to no one's surprise. So this September Full Moon for 2020 is a corn moon, not a harvest moon. So this was a time that many people native peoples of North America would begin their harvest. Take pick a collecting crops such pumpkin or squash, beans, wild rice and of course corn. So this is really a time to reap blessings and give thanks harvest holidays and harvest moons or corn moons really call for listing your blessings, just like we talked about some of this stuff at the Lunasa episode. So the universe and you are aware of all the wonderful things that are in your life really take some time to revel in the things that are going right for you and things that are giving you joy just really soak them up. During this time think about how our ancestors all over the world would really feast in gorge during the harvest time as a way of preparing their bodies for winter. So imagine that you're going to soak up joy from this time so that you can carry it with you throughout darker times. Particularly if you suffer from seasonal affective disorder. This doesn't cure it, but this may help it or just if you get if the holidays make you really depressed. That's very common, soaking up the joy from this time and carrying it with you throughout the darker times will be a benefit. So another thing you can consider doing is charging your personal jewelry with blessings and joy to kind of carry the energy throughout the year if you were a pentacle, you were a crystal something you wear every day, get it out there in that moonlight with you or do several things where you go out at night and talk to this piece of jewelry, reminding it of all the blessings and joy you have in this in your life right now and really fill it up with the joy of the harvest season. So it will carry you through the next few months and into the darker the darker time. So a lot of great magic people can do right now. Kanani 11:37We've been in quarantine almost the entire month of August because it started on the third and we're not out of quarantine until the 28th. And so we've pretty much missed the entire month of August as far as anything that's happened in the world. And so um you know with that came a lot of You know beings being terrified and being anxious and being scared and just flat out depressed and one of the things I noticed is I kind of in the last week have started being like, Okay, you know what we're going to start getting dressed in the morning. We're actually going to get dressed instead of just wearing pajamas all day and then changing into a different pajamas that evening. And so I started trying to, you know, kind of do that to kind of motivate myself to feel somewhat normal. And then I was doing that and then I decided, you know what, I'm going to start wearing my necklace. And the funny thing about this necklace, is I think Courtney bought it for me when we were like 19. I've literally worn it almost every single day. And the funny thing is, is I love necklaces. So I have a bunch that I've bought but I never wear them because I always wear that necklace. And so there's people who will like recognize me in town and they only know me by that necklace. And, and so I mean it is like a part of me. And so, it What was interesting to me was the day I started putting I started getting dressed and I put the necklace on. I felt me. I felt better, I felt more clear I felt more calm. And so it was so since then I've started wearing it every day because I just I get so much strength from it because it's just such a part of me. And so I think I will definitely be charging mine with a full moon because I definitely think that especially if you have you know either something you carry on you or or jewelry that you wear every single day. The energy you get from that is it's legit. Like it's it's there. Whether you are conscious of it or not. It brings you something that gives you something and I, every day that I wear it, and people will be with me for the day and they'll see this for themselves. Every day someone somewhere at a store or at a gas station or, or walking around on the street in a park, someone will make a comment about how they like it. And oftentimes the comment will be followed up with some sort of a comment about how they like fairies. Oh, I went to this festival one time, oh, there I have this ghost story. And people will just start like spilling their guts to me about something of a pagan nature. And then halfway through their story, they'll look at me and be like, I don't know why I'm telling you this because I'm an absolute stranger. But there's something about it that just people react to.Courtney 14:44Well, it's also a way of measure being careful because of that jewelry is attracting people to you that have that are kind of it's as if it's such an open vessel. I mean even people like minded people can sometimes carry some funk that you don't want You don't need that coming into your life you know people's anxieties are there somebody's their fears their other thingsKanani 15:06I have to say the funniest and most memorable moment that really was like I was in urgent care cuz I was sick and it was the doctorCourtney 15:21Oh god Kanani 15:22Was going on about this trip he'd taken to England and he and his wife and they had been in visited the fairy knolls and he's telling me all these stories about fairy lore that now he thinks he believes and and he's just going on and on meanwhile, I'm dying, Courtney 15:38oh no....cause of death doctor was curious about fairyHilary 15:47Can you just focus on like taking care of me first?Courtney 15:51I have a story as lessened during but at the same nature. So I was at the gynecologist and I had all my pentacle. And I'm never wearing my pentacle to the gynecologists office again after this because the doctor like I got my feet in the stirrups and she is this is in New York because she goes so what's your necklace about? And I'm like, well it's it's I'm a practicing wiccan and just as she's got the gloves on her fingers. And she's doing the exotic she starts the exam. The moment she starts using she exactly as a practicing wicket. And so, you know, I'm like, Ah, you know, I I that's a little complicated.Hilary 16:32*Screaming goat*Courtney 16:32Yeah, that happened. I do. I do not wear my jewelry to doctor's offices anymore because I don't want to be in the stirrups with the speculum and there and the finger and then having to explain my religious practices. I'm just not doing it.Hilary 16:46You're like, um.. NO Kanani 16:47I am making you do it. And I'm driving to the doctor myself.Courtney 16:51No, no, no, you're not. That's not gonna happen. Kanani 16:53That is hilariousCourtney 16:54It's horrifying. I can't believe I never told you that story. Kanani 16:58That is hilarious. And I'm I'm gonna film it and put it on the YouTube. Courtney 17:01That is disgusting. And you never will. Kanani 17:07But I would,Hilary 17:08is it time to talk about candle? ... I think it's time for candlesKanani 17:10I think it's time for Hilay to talk about candles.Hilary 17:12Let's save our listeners from this shit show, we're going to talk about candles. So I have an amazing friend, her name is Philecia. And she's like genuinely one of the most incredible humans I know. And in 2018, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. And it's been a long journey for her in treatment, and she's doing very well right now. And part of during this time for her, she started as a hobby, making candles and it actually turned into something that has supported her through her cancer treatment has helped pay for treatments and make sure she gets adequate and not just adequate but exceptional care. And it's part of the reason that she's done so well because of that. And she has pre orders right now for her fall collection. And not only does she have a fall collection, but she has a Disney collection and the scents crazy, like First of all, they're incredible sense. But also, I mean, they're made with so much love. She's just like I said, the most incredible human that is just like magical and amazing and beautiful and radiates light. She's incredible. And that goes into her candlemaking and she, these scents are there, they burn for a very long time. They were very clean. And the scents really are, you know, they're the type of candles that when you light them like your whole home just smells so good.Courtney 18:41I mean, she had a Sleepy Hollow candle.Hilary 18:45So we'll give you a couple of examples. Just Yeah, I feel like our listeners deserve to hear. So she has a Disney Villains line. And on that line, she has a Maleficent Ursula Cruella she also has just like general general Disney scents and then she has Halloween Disney scents including Haunted Mansion, mansion and pumpkin vineya which I know cannot be ordered. Then her fault scents are for Halloween Sleepy Hollow, which is smoke suede and an ood would Headless Horseman which is leather musk would smoke and real pumpkin. She has Black River, black absenth, Butterbeer and then she has classic false sense so they're awesome. Go support her. She's an incredible magical human that deserves all of our love and support and I'm so happy that she's doing well so far and I'm just so grateful that that these candles help support her well being so like go buy all of our thing and we'll, we'll post it in. We'll post our links in the in our show notes. So get over there and get some candles like the rest of us who blew all of our money candles.Kanani 20:01So thank you for bearing with us on what has been a very interesting beginning of our podcast. We want to thank everybody and let everyone know that we have been posting all kinds of awesome stuff on Patreon. We also have three songs in entirety that Jenna let us put on our Patreon for her upcoming album that has not yet been released, which is amazing.Hilary 20:29Get in on that.Kanani 20:32I know good. It's, I mean, the songs are amazing. And I'm still kind of floored that she, you know, let us do that. They're so good.Hilary 20:41I was like I'm so excited that she agreed to come on our podcast, because she's like an Emmy nominated composer and singer songwriter and amazing so we lucked out I don't know how we got her to come on her podcast.Kanani 20:53Exactly. And we actually wanted to give a shout out to our new Patreon subscriber Emily who joined at the girlfriend Kanani's girlfriend, boyfriend, NB friend level and one of the things that we decided to add to that level because we're so excited is Courtney is actually going to draw a card for EmilyCourtney 21:18yeah sorry guys my mic sounds different my cat unplugged it and the recording will not pick up my will not reconnect reconnect it so I know I sound a little tinny right now but you can blame my little black cat. Anyway Emily, thank you for joining at the Kanani girlfriend boyfriend nb friend level and your tarot card is oh the magician. Okay, so when you get this card, it's as it's assigned to, to really, you know, turn your magic all the way up, which is what Lisa Jade always says, a really good time for reading. It's a card for a good card for writing. It's also a good card for being really honest about what you need people to hear. So The spirits really want you to take full force of your magic, dig into the things that really interest you. And speak up and speak out. And again, sorry about my mic, y'all.Kanani 22:10So thank you, Emily for joining our Patreon and going forward any new Patreon members who are at the 25 level, when you join the 25 level, we will give you a shout out on the podcast and Courtney will pull a card for you on the podcast. And between now and the end of September, we are going to be donating 10% of all of our proceeds to the United Way of Central Iowa for their storm relief efforts. And for Habitat for Humanity of Los Angeles, who is working on addressing housing needs across all of California in the wake of the devastating fires. So 10% of our proceeds are going to be split between those two charities who are doing really important wonderful things right now. With that, I would love to introduce our guests who will hopefully be far more professional and ready to go than we ever were. Anjel is a queer nonbinary eclectic witch hailing from the New Orleans area currently living in Salem, OR. They are one of the lead coordinators of the Wild Witches of the Willamette and co-host of the Science Witch Podcast. They practice an eclectic style of witchcraft that incorporates herbalism, yoga, feminism, astrology, social and racial justice, southern conjure, alchemy, ancestor reverence, Jungian theory and tarot, and is in a constant search for ways in which science and witchcraft intersect, interact and affirm one another. Anjel holds a Master’s of Science in Biology/Ecology and has been employed in scientific fields for most of their adult life and firmly believes that science and witchcraft are one in the same . They are an avowed myco-evangelist with the strong conviction that mushrooms will save the world. They have a spiritual connection to plants from a witchy and scientific perspective and enjoy identifying and teaching about plants we find on witch walks hosted by the Wild Witches. They also love to crochet, draw, and dance, and can be found calling down the Goddess at the monthly full moon drum circles. They also can be found in sci-fi, table top rpg and furry fandom circles and conventions. They are a scion of the Egyptian Goddess of writing and science, Sheshat, and feel their calling is to facilitate synergy between science and spirituality that will help humanity survive and evolve. WelcomeAnjel 24:49Thank you so much. I've been a listener of your podcast now since it began. So it's really awesome to be able to be a guest on itCourtney 24:58You poor thing you, at yet, you survived. Anjel 25:03I love this podcast. It's it's like, become part of my weekly routine now is to listen to your podcast and, and so I really honored to be actually a guest.Kanani 25:17So Anjel I will let's get let's start by asking the question we asked everybody. So now since you actually you listen to the podcast you've known this is coming. I did, I'm prepared. Alright, so when did you first realize you're a witch or a medical person?Anjel 25:32I always knew I was a witch and magical person. It just from the moment. I was always just a weird, magical kid. I have a really interesting birthday. I was born on February 29. And so I've always just kind of had this sort of weird energy and then my mom's maiden name is Merlin. And I've always had a fascination with the Arthurian tales and My favorite show growing up was Disney's Gargoyles. And that shows amazing it's actually on Disney Plus, if you happen to have not seen it, it's like probably one of the best shows in the night and the 90s. But I always just had this fascination for fairies in the bay. And then I grew up in close to New Orleans, but in the surrounding areas, so it was still pretty Christian and conservative. So I wasn't really allowed to have like full expression of my witchy identity until much later in my life. But then when I was 14, I believe I watched the craft and of course that's like the gateway to all witchesHilary 26:49that is the gateway or my gateway for sureCourtney 26:51at least for the millennial witches, these millennial witches, those of us those of us that are long in the tooth are the ones that we're we're rolling By Fairuza and friends,Anjel 27:02yes, I just I saw that movie and I was just like this. I've been like I actually found my 16 year old journal and I was talking about how I was a reincarnated Wiccan priestess which tells you how much I actually knew about Wicca at that point, I at 16 I decided I was Wiccan and I wasn't going to go to church with my mother anymore. And I tried to be outwardly Wiccan and growing up in a really conservative area and I ended up getting a lot of, you know, just bullying and you know, religious oppression against me and it caused me to kind of have a lot of trauma associated with my witchy identity. And so I kind of subverted it and I was like strictly atheist from pretty much the entire time I was in university and then I you know, Gradually kind of found my way back into witchcraft after a series of, you know, interesting events that happened to me. The specific event that really changed my whole perspective was, I was in a Ph. D. program. And I was teaching out on the Hopi reservation, and I was having a really painful like, cycle and out on the reservation, there's no place to go get, you know, painkillers or any kind of Tylenol it like 10 o'clock at night, and I was staying in housing that the tribe provided. And so I was just in so much pain and I had to get up the next day and teach like 60 fourth or fifth graders from both the Hopi and Navajo Nation. And I just was like, Okay, well, please let me just go to sleep so I can teach these kids. And immediately I fell asleep. And this Hopi woman came to me and she put a piece of corn on my tongue and said, spoke to me, and my pain just went away and I was able to wake up the next morning and teach all these fifth and sixth graders. And it was a really incredible memorable experience. But that was kind of like my initiation into Okay, there's a lot more here than just this, you know, materialistic Richard Dawkins view of the world. And so that's where I began to, like reinitiate my studies into witchcraft, I dabbled in several different traditions, and I went to some witchcraft teachers when I was still living in Phoenix, Arizona. And then, when I moved to Oregon, I got to meet some really incredible witches up here, namely Moondancer, she's sort of like my witchy older sister, and together with her, we started the Wild Witches of the Willamette. And since then, it's just continue to grow. And I've continued to just learn as much as I can about witchcraft, while simultaneously I have this background in science, you know, I have been, you know, in grad school and of course, I've, you know, published peer reviewed journals. And when I was in school, there was always the sense of like, you had to have this sort of detached, unbiased opinion of all of your science. And I could never do that I always sort of had just as deep emotional connection to the things I studied and, and the science and suffice to say, I didn't make it through my Ph. D. program, but I was able to kind of like reconcile these two sides and the more I gone into witchcraft and studying more about witchcraft, the more I found that it really synergizes very well with science and so like that That's sort of been one of the things I've been exploring with the podcast I do with my co hosts, Iris is just all these ways that science and witchcraft interact and form one another. And so that's kind of like, what my witchcraft is rooted in. And then I have a daily yoga and meditation practice that I also have a way of like, incorporating into my practice. So, but yeah, that's kind of why I'm a witch. Now.Kanani 31:31You know, one of the things that, I think is a big a big fallacy is a lot of people think, you know, oh, well, if you're a witch, then you don't believe in science. And it's like, oh, contraire. Yeah, no, I absolutely believe in science. And, and I think that when people kind of really look at the two and compare the two, like you said, there's actually a lot of ways in which they intersect it. If this is not an either or situation.Anjel 32:03Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one of the things I've felt is that witches knew about evolution, witches knew about microbes, which is new about all of these, like, you know, biochemical concepts, they just didn't have the language that we do now. And so we as witches in the 21st century gets to enjoy this synergy between what science is able to show us as well as, you know, all these witchcraft traditions that we have access to thanks to the internet and books and podcasts. And the more I learned, the more it just completely synergizes and, I mean, I really think that just about everything in science and witchcraft can synergize and there's just so much that they affirm one another and this whole dichotomy between you can't be spiritual and scientific is just toxic and we need to destroy it especially if we are going to be able to move forward and survive late stage capitalism.Kanani 33:15No, I, I, you know, I hundred percent agree and I think, I think you kind of put it in a really succinct way of you know, we have to evolve the world is changing and life is changing and, and with science comes certain knowledge and, and, you know, medicinal knowledge and ways that we can help ourselves and so, sometimes it can be, you know, a little unnerving when, you know, like, you get someone who comes up to you and asks you and says, Hey, you know, I have, I have cancer, I have leukemia, or I have, you know, some sort of major ailment, and they're like, what kind of, you know, crystal can cure me. And it's like, well, let's go to the doctors. First, you know, let's find things that can help you with your person, and maybe help calm you and work with your stress and anxiety. But, you know, it's this isn't either or you can take all of the wonder of science, and utilize that to your advantage. And let's, let's use the things that we know and learn. And then let's interweave that with things that can maybe help your health your soul and help your, you know, spiritual sense to get through what you're going to have to physically get through that science can help you with Courtney 34:32I once went on a retreat with a witch who decided not to bring their diabetic medication along because they thought that since we were doing all kinds of healing magic that weekend that they wouldn't need it. And three days in, they had an episode. Yes, so that's something bigger,Hilary 34:54That's terrifying.Courtney 34:54It was very scary. So science and magic are very good friends and Especially when I'm saying this because a lot of atheists out there assume that I don't believe in anything that scientific whatsoever and it's like no actually science to me is, you know, a really blessed lover of witchcraft. They get along great.Anjel 35:13Yeah, one of the fields of science I feel that it's just like you can't study it and not feel spiritual is mycology. And that's actually what I did most of my graduate work in. And, you know, beyond just course, psychology is the study of mushrooms. beyond just the obvious psilocybin mushrooms, which you know, we were going to talk about but just the, the idea that, you know, mycelium and fungi are so pervasive and they make up this giant network across the entire planet that connects all of these giant trees in these you know, huge networks where they share energy and even the trees or B are able to I actually care for their seedlings through this mycorrhizal network. And, you know, fungi are all over the planet. They're, you know, plants came on land with fungi and mycorrhizal fungi, you know, like 200 million years ago. So, you know, fungi are this sort of cryptic, subtle, almost occulted form of life that is such a powerful force on this planet. fungi are able to break down compounds that are so recalcitrant that nothing else in the on the planet can break them down. This is why you see, you know, poly pores on trees because the the type of enzymes as poly pores produce are the only enzymes in the world or that are known in nature that can cleave those lignin molecules. So the fungi are involved in breaking down all the organic matter their yeast that's found in our food on our bodies. They're giant mycorrhizal networks and the largest and oldest organism on the planet is actually a fungus and it's the humongous fungus which is an amarilla or honey mushroom that is actually pathenogenic and it's in northeastern Oregon. And but it's the oldest and largest organism, known on the planet. So fungi are just this incredible. You know, like force of nature that when you know you have a scientific and witchy understanding and appreciation of them. It just changes your whole worldview on you know, how we relate to the environment as well as our even our own bodies. Mushrooms can teach us so much about resilience and adaptiveness You know, when we ally ourselves with the fungal kingdom, there's so much more we can accomplish like being able to break down the massive amounts of plastic wastes, or being able to build immunity in bees so they don't get the same Colony Collapse challenges and issues that they have. There's just so many ways that fungi actually want to help us. And this is something that Terence McKenna talks about in his book, Food of the Gods, that the fungal Kingdom wants to have this discourse with us, they want to help save the world because if we blow up the planet, we kill all the fungi, the fun the you know, the fungal consciousness does not want to just die It wants to continue it wants to live on and so it has these ways to you know, interface with our you know, human brain that When we actually pay attention to and listen to, I think there's a lot of like, potential to heal so many things that capitalism and colonialism has wrought on our, you know, modern day human psyche.Kanani 39:16What are what are some of the ways that you have kind of studied mushrooms? Or what are some of the you talk about their magical properties and whatnot? How have you kind of used them in a magical sense?Anjel 39:30Well, one of the ways I like to utilize mushrooms in my magical practices that um, I like to just be sitting in nature under a tree, and, you know, close my eyes and ground myself and sort of connect with the ground. And then, you know, with my scientific background, I know that there are, you know, thousands and millions of fungal cells right under my feet in the soil that are providing all of these incredible services by breaking down the soil and causing the soil to be able to hold moisture and connecting all the trees. So just having that awareness and being able to like take my consciousness down into the fungal network and when I'm doing that, the meditation I think Starhawk talks about where you, you know, you picture yourself as a tree. I like to take that even further and picture myself as the tree and the roots and then going down into the fungal networks and expanding out into the soil. And then with mycorrhizal fungi, it's such a beautiful symbiosis where the tree gives the fungal partner which interfaces at the root level. So the the fungus grows around the roots and at that exchange point The tree gives the fungus carbon from its above ground photosynthetic activities. And in exchange the fungus gives the plant gives the tree extra nutrients that it's able to scavenge from the soil. So one of my models for divine that has been useful for me is that we are like mycorrhizal fungi. And the divine is like the tree. So if we give our divine tree you know, the symbiotic relationship and we feed the tree good things like our art, our music, our creation, our ecstatic dance, if we feed the tree the Divinity to the tree invests more energy into us and there's more of a reciprocal relationship. But if we don't feed the tree and we you know, cut ourselves off from the divine and the tree stops investing in that And it just becomes a sort of almost parasitic relationship. So that's been a way for me to kind of like use as a, like a spiritual model for you know, when I'm feeling angry or, you know, resentful or petty or, or having these emotions which, you know, you have to stay in, I'm not being like all good vibes only, but you know, I, I take a moment to be in those feelings and then I remember that I want to continue to feed the divine with this energy of you know, art and music and you know, podcasts and books and writing. And you know, and by having this symbiotic reciprocal relationship with the divine, the divine to get in return, feeds and nourishes me That's like, I don't even know what to say that's like, the perfect analogy to describe kind of, I think the relationship between You know, people and people and the divine, I mean, you're it's either it's either a mutual relationship or it's just not. And you're just kind of utilizing all the resources without actually giving thanks. And and having any, you know, reciprocal, you know, relationship that's just yeah, I'm gonna have to ponder that for a while because that was like wow,Courtney 43:30I feel like we're going to mushroom church and I just want to praise and worship.Hilary 43:33Right?Kanani 43:34I know my brain is just like, Anjel 43:38That's why I call myself a Miko evangelist.Courtney 43:41Well now whenever hear that song, take me to church. I'm just going to imagine this big beautiful mushroom rising out of the ground and all of us wait. Yeah, there it is. You all you have your new image when that song comes on Spotify or at the gym or whatever, go to the gym anymore. Never mind whenever you hear that at the grocery store.Hilary 43:58OMGKanani 44:00Hilarious. So, one of the things that you mentioned, you've mentioned a few times and I'm not going to say it properly. It's the potentially medicinal part of plantsAnjel 44:17and fungi.Kanani 44:19Yes.Anjel 44:24Oh, yes. Okay, so um, I think you're referring to the the psilocybin initiative here. Okay. So here in Oregon, we have the opportunity to be the first place in the United States that actually legalizes psilocybin therapy. And so, in November, there will be on the ballot. So any listeners out there who are registered Oregon voters, you get the opportunity to potentially help pass this groundbreaking, you know, legislation To be able to legalize psilocybin therapy. And so by legalize psilocybin therapy, I mean that it will create a statewide licensed psilocybin therapy program. And the best thing about this is like once this if this passes, you don't have to be an Oregon resident to be able to access it. So, and you don't have to have any diagnosis. It will be just a matter of you first have the step to screen you for any kind of contra indication that you might not be able to respond well to the psilocybin therapy. And then the psilocybin therapy will actually last a whole day where you're actually in a, you know, specified licensed facility and they monitor you and they're able to like, walk through this whole process because the one of the things In our society where, you know, in Western society, psilocybin has been just this party drug. It's like magic mushrooms man, like, you know, and we just, we haven't treated it with the proper respect. And that'sKanani 46:13I was gonna say, could you kind of like tell everybody like what is psilocybin?Anjel 46:16So psilocybin is the psychoactive compound that's found in psilocoby, or psychedelic mushrooms. And there's a psilocybin species of mushrooms found throughout the world. And it was used by ancient cultures, specifically in Southeast Asia and in Mesoamerica, as a sacrament. And so the peoples of you know, both the ancient world and the Americas had been using this as a powerful medicine, where, in order to take it, you had to go to a medicine person and they would administer it and In the 1950s a banker went over to this village in Mexico and paid a lot of money to get the first mushrooms and then went back to our first mushrooms that Western, you know, Americans had access to. And then he went back to the United States. And he wrote about his experience in Life magazine. So this was actually published in Life magazine in the 1950s. And then from there, it just basically opened the doors to this entire counter culture. You know, pilgrimage down to Mexico to visit with Maria Sabina, who is the original medicine woman who gifted these mushrooms and it caused a lot of harm because of all of the you know, hippies that were basically just spiritual bypassing so they could Take the mushrooms back to the United States and you know use them for partying and such. So it since the beginning the Western cultures sort of interaction with these mushrooms has been problematic. But once the mushrooms were discovered and incorporated, there were some early studies in the 1950s that found it a psilocybin had amazing potential to help cure alcoholism and depression and various other ailments like specifically alcoholism, which there are some early studies that indicated that there was something like 80% success rate. And so then, in the 1960s, of course, with Timothy Leary and you know, the Cultural Revolution, all of that these incredible compounds were basically forced underground and made illegal because the well, you know, Michael Pollan talks a lot about this entire history in his book, How to Change Your Mind, but basically Timothy Leary didn't really do psychedelics, very many favors, and it caused basically this hysteria and panic around it. So it was made a schedule one substance, and I believe in the 1970s. And so, research continued, even though this substances still considered federally illegal, and is recently as the last, you know, five to 10 years they've found psilocybin has this incredible potential for helping treat anxiety, depression, people who have cancer at the end of their lives, were able to find peace and serenity. And even for those of the people who don't have any kind of illness, there was a paper that was published in 2006 that was entitled Psilocybin Can Occasion Mystical Experiences Having Substantial and Sustained Personal Meaning and Spiritual Significance. And this was a study that was done by R.R. Griffins at John Hopkins University and basically, they surveyed these people who took psilocybin in a controlled environment, and almost the entire population of patients reported to have like, incredible life changes just from like one session of psilocybin so it has this incredible potential to have you know, uh, you know, with what we have is the the mental health issues in our country where one in five Americans, and nearly 50 million people have been diagnosed with some kind of mental issue or mental illness. And the pandemic, of course, has exasperated this to the point where, you know, we're, we're all kind of at the point where all of us are going to need therapy. So, you know, this, this treatment has such incredible possibilities, when we are able to utilize it in a therapeutic setting and treat it with the respect it deserves. There's so much research to support the use of psilocybin and it's treating and things like that, you know, pharmaceuticals have just not been able to touch like eating disorders, they found that it's able to treat eating disorders because what psilocybin does is it it's like one of the things that, you know, I'm borrowing this from Michael Pollan, but he talks about how our brains are kind of like They get settled in what we call the default mode network. And so it's like a snowy hill where we just keep going down the same grooves in our, you know, sled. And so the more you go down those grooves, the more those grooves are sort of, you know, they're deepened in our brains. And so basically those grooves represent ideas of depression and anxiety and thoughts. So you know, ideation of suicide, things like that. Those are, every time our brains kind of go in that direction, it just kind of further deepens those grooves. What psilocybin does is shake all that up, it basically, you know, activates parts of our brains that aren't activated in normal consciousness. And it allows us to kind of have this clean slate, where we can sort of re approach the way that our minds have been working in ways that have harmed us so in cases of like, people who have been able to kick their smoking habit, they during their their psilocybin trip or one of the woman talked about how when she went into her psilocybin trip, she saw her smoking habit as this like, angry, like coughing demon, and she was literally able to confront it and say, No, I don't want you in my life anymore. And when she came out of the trip, she said she couldn't even be around a cigarette anymore. So and I mean, this was all just, you know, a psilocybin trip in her head, but yet, she was able to overcome one of the most difficult addictions known to humankind, through this, this therapy and this medicine. And so, and then, of course, with, you know, eating disorders, you you can, the people who were in these studies, were able to look at the way that they were treating their body and have this completely new perspective that they weren't able to have before. So there's just such as incredible potential for this therapy to be able to heal so many things that have just become so toxic about our modern day lives and late stage capitalism. And so I've been involved in the campaign since the beginning. And I really, really hoping that you know, if it passes in November, after the two year review period, where we're going to make sure that we have the licensing process down and making sure that, you know, the testing labs and the therapists that are going to be giving the treatments have all the proper credentials, but once that two year period is over, and we actually are able to have psilocybin therapy in Oregon. It's going to be this huge opportunity for anyone anyone can come to Oregon and have this therapy, provided that you're you know of age and you meet the requirements in terms of like health, but it's it's available, and hopefully this will sort of began this new era of really approaching mental health in a way that more people can access this powerful medicine to help make their lives better. I mean, for that to happen, the thing about psilocybin is that there's really no reason the mushroom needs to produce psilocybin like, and Michael Pollan talks about this in his book, it's like, if if psilocybin than was meant to just, you know, deter bugs from eating the the fruiting bodies of the mushroom because that's where the psilocybin is located. Then it would be in the mycelium, which is actually the body the vegetative body of the fungus, which usually don't see because it's this network of what we call hyphae or fungal threads in the soil that you don't usually see. But the psilocybin that these mushrooms, produce is in the actual fruiting bodies or the mushrooms. And there's not really any sort of interaction other than this sort of psychedelic communication and, you know, we're not the only species that eats mushrooms, cows eat mushrooms, monkeys will eat mushrooms. And, you know the, the, I would be remiss without mentioning Terence McKenna's theory of the Stoned Ape Theory, where he posits and Food of the Gods that our consciousness evolved because our ancient ancestors on the African savannas ate psychedelic mushrooms, and that these psychedelic mushrooms allowed us to be able to form complex thoughts and abstract thoughts and be able to have language and form religion. So, you know, there's not a lot of like strong support, I guess you could say for this idea of but you know there there's not a lot of support against it either. I mean our ancestors, you know, our pre human ancestors were living in the savannahs of Africa and they would have had access to these mushrooms and of course, you know, other animals do eat them. So the it's just sort of an interesting idea to think about is that we're human because of his interaction with psychedelic mushrooms and that it gave us this ability to have abstract thought and even religion.Kanani 57:38I love mushrooms, so I'm not gonna blame them for religion, but IAnjel 57:43Well spirituatlity, I should say spirituality because I don't know, religion, religions.Kanani 57:49I don't want to I don't want to do that to them. That's not that's not fair, they're too tasty.Anjel 57:53Yeah, if people want more information on IP34 I can send that to you all for your show notes. But, yeah, and there's lots of other information and where you can connect more with the initiative and learn more about psilocybin and this and the research that backs its use as well.Kanani 58:26I think that, you know, I think that especially when we're talking about, you know, quote unquote, drugs that are, you know, that actually come from plants that actually derived from things that come in nature. I think that like you said, sometimes they kind of get a bad rap, because people have used them in ways that they clearly necessarily weren't intended for. And, and so then, you know, medicine and science and doctors, just kind of cast it off, as, as you know, something that's just bad. And it's kind of nice to see that now they're kind of coming back into the fold of, well, there actually was a use for this. There actually is a medicinal purpose for this. So maybe let's go back to figuring out what that is, and educate people on it. And instead of just pretending like it's bad, or it doesn't exist, let's really start using the things that nature has provided for us to help usAnjel 59:31right and the psilocybin is non toxic, it's not addictive the bad experiences people have with it is because they didn't respect it. So you know, Timothy Leary talks about how set and setting is so important when you're taking psilocybin whereas you want to make sure that you're in a safe environment. And you want to make sure that your mindset is not in a really dark place. But then if you have someone that's a licensed therapist, guiding you through this whole experience, if you do go to a dark place, they're there to help you and talk you through it. And then you can find healing, like deep, powerful healing. So think about like just Shadow Work, but to the point where, you know, like months and months and months of Shadow Work that you're able to do in one session, because you're able to like, take your your mind and put it in a state of consciousness that it doesn't get to be in on a normal occasion. And that's sort of the function of ritual. And spell work is to bring our consciousness to this new level. So being able to access this therapy, and this medicine for this specific purpose of healing ourselves on the spiritual level. It has such incredible potential and I'm so excited to be a part of it and be here in Oregon where we may very well be the first state to allow this groundbreaking therapy to be accessible to anyoneKanani 1:00:59We have a listener question that we were going to present and maybe get some opinions from you on as well. The question was "Hello witches. I just wanted to reach out and say your podcast has helped me understand myself and the power I have. I was wondering if there is a ritual or spell that could be done before the average school year starts. I teach fifth grade and our district is decided that we will open face to face with full class sizes in my state, which is currently experiencing a spike in COVID-19. I have an underlying condition as well as my father and friend who have serious conditions that teach in my district. I'm facing either risking my life, my family's life and well being or losing my job. I invested years of time and 10s of thousands of dollars into my career. I would love any positive vibes, spells, rituals, etc. That would help guide our leaders and send healing and safety our way. I have learned a lot and plan on having a lemon balm plant or seven in my classroom as well, crystals in the corner, I will keep it a secret, of course, or always call it decor if I get a crazy parent who is anti witchcraft, which I've had in the past, if the need arises, I am proud to be a patron supporter and wish you all the best for the rest of this crazy year."Hilary 1:02:22That's hard. I must really feel for this listener, it's like, I know I have a few close friends that are also teachers. And it's just it's a really hard thing because on one hand, they really want to get back to their job. And on the other hand, they don't feel totally safe doing so. And then it's, you know, they're in a situation where in some districts there, they don't have an option. It's like they go back or they lose their job. So I really, really feel for this listener and I'm just sorry that you're in that situation. You know, I mean, as we of course we've mentioned on here before, you know, magic can't is no replacement for medicine or medical precautions. However, I'm a big fan of any sort of protection in general just for life and especially now, we're not just dealing with the virus but we're also dealing with everything, all of the the heightened emotion and energy that everyone is carrying with them because of everything we've all been through that those anxieties that the parents feel with their kids going, the kids having their life really flipped upside down. I can't imagine what it's like to be a kid right now. I'm all for, you know, some crystals and some lemon balm to just, I would say focusing on grounding and and energetic protection because again, I think that our world is energetically chaotic right now. And so I personally am consistently using these things to using different elements to protect myself from that, because we get bombarded with it everywhere, so, and if that brings new comfort and grounding, that's not a bad thing, you know, like that, that is that is completely positive in my mind.Anjel 1:04:13Yeah, I really, my heart goes out to this listener because that is such a difficult thing. You know, I have taught through out the course of my graduate career and I love teaching. But, you know, there's, it's so much work and on top of the fact that it's already incredibly difficult and often thankless job. And I speaking as the daughter of a retired drama teacher, that, you know, you just pour so much of yourself into this job and then, you know, don't get the resources or the support. And then on top of that, having to deal with this pandemic with you know, a bunch of let's see fifth and sixth graders, so that's like 13-14 year olds Oh, my goodness, you are incredibly, you know, amazing which to continue to do what you do. And so, yeah, just pray I pray every day to the Goddess for protection. I ask I pray for protection of my family, my friends, my community, my partners, I pray and I try to ritualize my hand washing to the point where like, I use it as like a 20 second like meditation of just like, you know, feeling like really taking myself and making myself present. And thenHilary 1:05:45I love that idea, by the way, I love that.Anjel 1:05:48Yeah, that's that's like helped me, you know, get through this whole pandemic because, you know, washing your hands and wearing a mask are the two things that we know help reduce the spread of COVID. And so, you know, just finding ways to witchify as the Southern Fried Witch says, witchify everything, just finding ways to witchify those small little basic science, validate validated common sense ideas and putting them into your practice I think is incredibly powerful and helping us survive this. And then you know, just making sure you take care of yourself one of the things I do is every time I get home because I, you know, I'm still working, I'm an essential worker. And the first thing I do is I don't wear my shoes inside the house, I take off my shoes, and I take a shower, usually when I as soon as I get home, and that's been really helpful because when I'm showering, I try to I call my ancestors I call my guides I call my allies down to To protect me, and this time and I just like cleanse myself on both a physical and spiritual level. But like I said, even the way as much as exposure as I have working where I do, I still don't have the amount of risk that you have being a teacher, listener. So, you know, just try to do your best. And as we've seen a lot of these schools as soon as they open, they end up closing. So maybe just like, you know, have that in mind if this happens and have that backup plan. So that, you know, if it does come to a point where they open and they have to immediately close, you still have this ability to reach your classroom. And I love lemon balm. Lemon balm, of course, is a really useful uplifting herb has a lot of limonene and it's um it's very easy to grow. So how having like plants, I think just in general is always a good policy if you can keep them alive. And it always like increases people's moods and whatnot. So, and if those give us strength, then yes, because if you feel fortified and confident and you're able to practice these, you know, common sense, like washing your hands, making sure everyone wears a mask and keep social distancing, if you can, like confidently encourage that and keep that then you know, the kids will see that and they'll, they'll definitely model you.Courtney 1:08:39The one thing I want to add to this because is that is if trying to figure out if you have ancestors who were healthcare workers or some kind of Guardians, and call on them, to show you the way also if you have, I'm also hearing, you know, see if you have ancestors who were educators because you will won't be the first educator who had to teach during a span of illness and ask them for some help. And you know, or I don't know if you work with a specific Pantheon but most god or goddess pantheons have healer, gods or goddesses. So invoking them for some assistance as well. And perhaps setting up something outside your front door to catch the energy as it's going in and out. I know David, she has recommended keeping thistle beside you're on either side of your front door, which is an invasive plant, you should be removing it anyway. So that could be something to use or even some people keep a bowl of water and they kind of tap it before they go in the house. So that's just a way of, of keeping energy off of you that might lead you more susceptible to illness. But again, best the best, the best row for protection are masks and hand washingHilary 1:09:50100% I also really like blackberry and because as protection, you can make a wreath out of blackberries because they're thorny, they like kind of ward things off so I can Be a good way to keep energy, energy that you don't want out. But I agree if you if you bolster those common sense things like washing your hand wearing masks, taking the precautions with these energetic things, hopefully that'll set you up to be successful. You know, I've mentioned it before my husband, as a teacher, we have lots of friends who are teachers, and a lot that actually aren't teachers, but work in schools. And so this is a very real thing. It's very, very difficult. And so practice self care, and, and know that this isn't okay. It's incredibly stressful, and it's okay for you to not be okay. And, you know, we can all just kind of hopefully help each other and, you know, do what we can do to get through this time. And hopefully, there's a lot of things that we will learn from this. I think I'm hoping that one of the big lessons that we learned as a society from this, particularly in this country, which other countries seemed figured out, which is, it's not helpful to be an asshole, because you depend on your neighbors. And it matters what you do and it matters what they do. So maybe be a good person. And then we can all live in a much more harmonious environment. So I think there's a lot of unfortunate lessons that this country had to learn, which had gotten very, very selfish, just very me oriented. And this has kind of forced people to acknowledge that what's happening at your neighbor's house matters. And making sure your neighbors okay matters because it's actually going to determine whether or not you're okay. So, Anjel, we really want to thank you for joining us this joining us for this episode. I think that this was it's kind of funny, I almost feel like this was a very cathartic episode. It started out as a dumpster fire so know that you're the only only one reason that it got good. So I, you know, I can't thank you enough. I'm very excited about about the initiative that's coming up in November, we will post the website for people to learn more about an initiative, but how can people keep in touch with us specifically, how can they find you?Anjel 1:12:21Yeah. So I have a podcast with my co host, Iris. It's called the Science Witch Podcast you can find...Courtney 1:12:29It's awesomeAnjel 1:12:29Thank you, thank you. We started it together after the pandemic hit and I've just, you know, been channeling all this latent academic energy into this podcast and you know, coming up with ways to help people survive with witchcraft and science. Also, if you are in the Willamette Valley or Oregon in general, check out the Wild Witches of the Willamette on Facebook. It's a group I help coordinate and wear which is we're wild. It's eclectic. We're, you know, pro Black Lives Matter racial justice, LGBTQ friendly, you know, and very witchy and we host Witch Walks and we have witchcraft alongs and other various events. And then me personally, you can follow me on Instagram. I'm Angel Kitty, that's, a n j e l k i t t y and I, I post pictures of plants, a little bit of my art, mostly plants and places I go, but um, yeah, you can follow me on Instagram.Kanani 1:13:50Well, thank you so much for joining us and we want to thank all of our listeners for listening and if you want to support the show, the best way to support us is To subscribe rate and review us on iTunes. You can buy us a Kofi or check out the merge on our Etsy store. For extra bonus content, you can become a supporter on Patreon.Courtney 1:14:10Hey, we should thank our listener who sent a question we should say thank you for being a patron.Kanani 1:14:15Yes, thank you, EmilyAnjel 1:14:16I'm a patron too actuallyCourtney 1:14:20Anjel is a patron and the listener has sent in the COVID question is also a patron, so thank them too.Kanani 1:14:25That's right. And we are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and for show notes, audio transcript or to ask us a question to answer on a future episode. You can go to and Until then, keep moting that shit and we'll talk to you next week.(Exit Music) 1:14:40Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be.Kanani 1:14:54I'm gonna call him, it makes him so mad when I do that.Courtney 1:14:57He don't leave the bedroom, you just callKanani 1:14:59he gets so furious when I call him when I'm in the same house,Courtney 1:15:02why are you calling me you're in the same houseKanani 1:15:04He gets so mad I'll put him on speakerHilary 1:15:06He's like why are you calling me?Courtney 1:15:09The quote of Kanani of the year... Why are you calling me?Hilary 1:15:13Oh my god.Kanani 1:15:14Watch the son of a bitch doesn't even answer.The Husband 1:15:16Yeah?Kanani 1:15:18Hey, Courtney said that you're hiding cookie frosting from me.Courtney 1:15:24Yes, no Pizza Hut was supposed to send you guys cookie frosting.The Husband 1:15:29Oh, they didn'tCourtney 1:15:31*GASP* I'm suing. I spent 75 cents I paid 75 cents for you guys to have cookie frosting.The Husband 1:15:37Yeah, well I think you'll be alright ................
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