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DEARBORN HISTORICAL MUSEUMORAL HISTORY PROGRAMINTERVIEWEE:JUDGE GEORGE T. MARTININTERVIEWER:Donald V. BautSUBJECT:COURTS IN DEARBORNDATE:April 23, 1980TRANSCRIBER:Bertha MigaEDITED BY:Donald V. BautTYPED BY:Bertha MigaACC. NO.:80-33MR. BAUT:This is April 23, 1980, and we are in the office of Judge George T. Martin here at 532 Lafayette Building. Judge Martin, I know you were born in Chicago. Why did your parents come to Dearborn?MR. MARTIN:My father came with a construction company when they were building the Glass Plant. We followed when he decided to leave the construction company and go with the Ford Motor Company. We were very lucky in having one of the old homes on Maple Road that Ford had bought and rented out to his employees. So we had the Long home down on Maple Road. It’s quite a transition from Chicago to the country atmosphere. We had neighbors down there. I remember Lysander Maples, Joyce Maples, Richard Maples (a classmate of mine), Chester Maples, Bill Maples, George Maples. Joe Karmann was also a neighbor in that area.MR. BAUT:Did you participate in his Izaak Walton League?MR. MARTIN:No, I was very young. See, I was about ten or twelve at that time. I entered the old Miller School, in a two room school, on the corner of Michigan Avenue and Lois and then moved into the building that was built there just back of the wooden two room school. The present building is there now, I think, usually for the use of the college. It was used by the Board of Education at one time, built in 1925. I came here about 1918.MR. B:I do know you lived on Lanson.MR. M:That’s right. (I) lived down on (something you might be interested in) Chase Road across the street from John Ford. And we lived in Theisen’s old home on Chase Road. We saw Henry Ford many times coming to see his brother. He had to visit his brother outside the home. He couldn’t go inside because John Ford’s wife didn’t care much for Henry Ford. So there (was) a little ruckus between Mrs. John Ford and Henry Ford. John Ford was quite a talkative individual. He would tell my father about these various things and so forth, family matters.For a year I attended the old Miller School until about 1920, ’21. I graduated from the eighth grade there and then went to Dearborn High because Fordson had no high school. You are aware of all this. No sense my repeating it if you are. Then (I) came back to Fordson High. The first year I was (at) Springwells High. We went there in the tenth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade because the School Board kept adding one grade at a time as we progressed. You got your diploma in the tenth grade and a diploma in the eleventh grade and a diploma in the twelfth grade.MR. B:Do you remember Miss Bixby teaching history? You don’t remember her? How about Miss Larson?MR. M:Just vaguely, yes.MR. B:Did you know a Lucy Cahoun?MR. M:No. (I don’t) place her at all.MR. B:Miss Elliott who taught English?MR. M:Of course, of course. In fact she came to high school. I was thinking about in the grade school. In the grade school we had Miss Leahy. She was quite a teacher, quite a great teacher. Miss Leahy taught the fifth on up I think it was. Somebody else taught in the other room up until the fourth. Of course, later on she became the principal of the high school. In the high school there were Miss Elliott, whom I married, and Miss Sampson the commercial teacher and there was Clarence Duncan in science and who else was there? I forget some of the others.MR. B:Of course you know Coach Whalen real well.MR. M:Oh yes, indeed. He came from Kalamazoo.MR. B:And Mr. Duncan?MR. M:Mr. Duncan, yes. University of Michigan and a brilliant fellow. Mr. Lowrey picked some real good teachers. He picked some very good ones. Yes he did.MR. B:I guess he was (superintendent) when you came to school there.MR. M:No, I don’t think so. He came after, see. They had a very small school board at that time. And I remember the brickmakers on Haggerty. Haggerty bought the flag pole in front of the old Miller School. Haggerty for a while was a swain of Miss Leahy’s. Yes he was. Very fine man. They had a home down past Miller Road on Michigan Avenue. And in your research you found Dearborn, Springwells at one time, was famous for its brickyards. I remember that.MR. B:How many were in your graduating class? Do you remember?MR. M:Oh certainly. You couldn’t miss it – five. The next class was fourteen. They were building up to six hundred.MR. B:How many are still living?MR. M:Well, there was Vi Oakley who died and one little fellow, Richard Maples, who had gone to Michigan State when I went to Michigan died and Ethel Walker is still living. And, oh yes, Beatrice Grist. She’s still living. (She) used to live on Williamson.MR. B:Did you know the Brozovich?MR. M:Yes indeed. Johnny Brozovich came later on. I was up in Ann Arbor just recently. I thought about the time when I was working my way through college. I got this job with Mr. Goodyear, a store in Ann Arbor, taking care of his apartment building on Hill Street in which I had the attic room, quite large, and a cot. That was my room for taking care of the building. And Johnny was broke, without any funds, and so I brought him in. And I also brought a fellow I worked with in the medical school, Eddie Nook, who worked (at) the Other End Chop House in Ann Arbor. And so in this attic apartment like, La Boheme, we had two beds and because Eddie was a medic and stayed up until two o’clock in the morning studying. Sy and I shared the other one. One had a turn on this little Army cot, the other one had a turn. I don’t know how we did it. Yes, indeed. There was Mary Brozovich who became a clerk in the Fordson High School and then there was another daughter. She was married then. So that was the Brozoviches. Johnny became the trainer of the University of Michigan athletic teams. (He) took up physical education. He is down in Florida now and has some business down there. He’s in (the) athletic business of some kind.Mr. B:How about Happy Jarecki?MR. M:Happy Jackson. His name was Jarecki. And there is quite a story on Happy because in high school he was just like the name implied happy, happy-go-lucky. He didn’t hit the grades too good. (He) played second base on our baseball team (and a) very good second baseman too. (He) stayed out of school a year, drove a truck (on) Maple and Michigan. Then (he) went to Michigan and failed the first semester. (He) went on to Eastern to Ypsilanti (and) got suspended there. (He) got his degree and went home and got his degree, came back and got his doctor’s in Michigan. Marvelous, you know. How can a guy do that? Tremendous drive, tremendous. Then he became head of the research department (when) Chase (?) retired. Wonderful success story to happen. He had a vest. He called it his “lucky vest.”MR. B:How is it that you were chairman of so many committees in school?MR. M:Very simple. I was president of the class all during the three years in high school. It was a class of five, you know, probably five, six, seven or eight before it wound down to five. I was valedictorian. I was captain of the football, the basketball and the baseball teams. Why not? What else is there to be? I was editor of the paper. I was chairman of the various hops and so forth, the Junior Hop and so we had the whole bit. We had our class picnic, our class trip. So we went to Washington, went to Niagara Falls. And Mrs. Lowrey came along as one of our chaperons and Dr. Baz chaperoned. We reserved the school colors. I picked them out. Then in the beginning of any school someone has to make a decision, you know. So we were there and we made a decision of carrying on of Fordson High School.We had a very good baseball team. We didn’t have the manpower for a good football team. They had a pretty fair basketball team. We were very good at baseball. I played first base and pitched. And we were so good, by golly, we beat the Detroit champions thirteen to four. I remember that the boys were so good that most of the team were asked to play a semi-pro game over in Canada and did. And I had to work in the drugstore. (I) worked my way through high school, you might say. So I didn’t go. Everybody came back. Mr. Lowrey heard about it. So he suspended all of them from being in semi-pro ball. The last game of the season was against Trenton or somebody. Mack went out and picked up a bunch. Buck Weaver was a coach in Trenton and he would not allow Mack to cancel the game. He would make them pay a forfeit for money. Mack wasn’t about to let go with any money. So he picked a bunch of eighth grader and with myself and his pitcher and with Dick Maples as second baseman we played Trenton. And we beat them in extra innings, nine to seven. Yes. Those things you remember, you know Mack, by God, he wasn’t going to let go of any money at all. If we won a game, you’d have a game. We had a very good baseball team.MR. B:You were on this committee; you were captain of this; president of your class for three years. Did this have any bearing on you going into public life at all?MR. M:No. I don’t think so. Only thing going into public life was, oh, somewhat of an accident in a way because I was associated with the attorney when I first came out by the name of George Belding. And George was going to run for (the) School Board. And then he got cold feet. There wasn’t too much law business going around. It was a time when you indulge in all kinds of extra-curricular activities along that line. If he doesn’t run, I think I’ll run. And so I ran and I ran (on) the slogan of “Fordson Graduates with a Fordson Board.” It’s a natural. And I campaigned very well and all the old politicians in town were astounded that I did so well. How old was I at the time about twenty-five, twenty-six? Anyhow I made it. I came on top. There was a very strong prerunning at that time during the depression, you know, too, because you got a hundred dollars a month for the Board. A hundred dollars wouldn’t be turned down. It was pretty enlightening in those days.MR. B:Yes. You were a political unknown.MR. M:That’s right.MR. B:Were you affiliated with the Democratic Party at this time?MR. M:No. You see, (it) was all non-partisan. As far as party activities is concerned in those days, Democrats were very few and far between. They were mostly Republicans.MR. B:Well, you ran in ’33.MR. M:I ran in ’33, yes. That was just about the time that Roosevelt came in wasn’t it?MR. B:Yes. I just thought it may have been sign of the times.MR. M:No, it wasn’t that.MR. B:Well, what made you follow the law anyway?MR. M:Well, I’ll tell you what made me follow the law. I went to Ann Arbor. Helen told me, “Why don’t you go to college?” I had no more idea of going to college than anything, you know. See, a great teacher does that, gives new ideas. So I think I’ll try it. How do you swing going to Michigan? To make it short, why I did.I started out with the idea in mind of becoming a dentist because Dr. Eugene C. Keyes, the handsome, flamboyant, Dr. Eugene C. Keyes had an office upstairs with a dentist in which I worked. Here he comes down and complains to the druggist, Mr. Morris, about how business was rotten. And Mr. Morris would encourage him that times will pick up and he’d do alright. As times did, he did. He did very well. And I say he had all kinds of money and epitome of success to an impressionable youth. I went to Ann Arbor. The first couple of years I just thought of science to prepare myself for dentistry.In my second year, my sophomore year, I began to wake up. “What am I taking dentistry for when I’m not too handy with my hands?” A dentist has got to be skillful with his hands. I’m much better at something else in the way of articulation and so I said, “I think I’ll take up law.” And I made a complete change of program. It’s quite a thing to do but I did it and I graduated two degrees in seven years, in a combines course. So I got out in ’31. My father died just before I graduated. I had to go to work. It was depression. So I was digging ditches with two degrees for fifty cents an hour in a hundred and eight degrees over there on Wisconsin Avenue. People were doing a great many things in those days, I mean those in my class in Michigan were coming down to Detroit and working for nothing. Were subsidized by the parents and working for five dollars a week. That’s how I was involved in those days. My mother and two sisters to take care of, why, I couldn’t afford to go in for (the) luxury as practicing law under those circumstances. I had to get some dough.MR. B:Of course in ’33 in (June), I believe it was, you ran as a political unknown. You beat out the favorite, a Polish fellow.MR. M:I had to because it was hotter than hell that first campaign going around the streets of Dearborn. Believe me it was hot. What was his name? He was a very nice fellow too. (He) changed his name. Was it Nowodworski?MR. B:YesMR. M:And Betzing ran that time and Brady ran.MR. B:You defeated George Brady and Frysinger?MR. M:And somebody else. There were about seven or eight in the field. They were all old time campaigners.MR. B:You still feel that politics does not enter the educational picture?MR. M:How do you mean?MR. B:Well that was at least quoted that (the) child comes first and politics does not enter the picture.MR. M:When?MR. B:During your campaign in June of ’33. You still feel that way?MR. M:Idealistically yes. You find out after a while how much politics does enter into it. But I say as an office holder, your ideal is to have your child come first and have political considerations come second if at all. It’s somewhat difficult. Hubbard was a strictly practical politician. I was idealistic, an idealistic office holder which is a difficult thing to be.MR. B:How do you feel today as far as teachers going out on strike for improved benefits?MR. M:I don’t know that I have any opinion upon that. I recall when I first (went) on the School Board teachers were hired for twelve hundred dollars a year. Any claims were raised by the teachers it was considered as ridiculous. They were frowned upon. I think it was after I left that they had a union. The teachers didn’t have a very enviable status. They had respect. Perhaps more respect than now. But they weren’t treated very well. This is a carryover from almost centuries of attitudes towards teachers. They made great gains presently, also because they money has been attractive and it should be. Take Germany where they have revered professions. They being the highest status from an individual. But any time you have a very large number of people in a profession that are calling you probably got some who aren’t dedicated. I often wonder whether teachers now are dedicated as they were in those days of long ago. It’s true also nowadays everything has been thrown at education. They’ve had some reading, writing and arithmetic; they graduate out, they give the schools to teach this, teach that. They’re diversified and their time is so taken up and not quite as – how shall I say – a specialist or skillful. It’s many different fields where you have to be almost everything. In fact parents are growing increasingly to the point where the school should teach manners and morals and so forth. At home there isn’t too much of that as was formerly done. This is perhaps the philosophy of someone who is not as young as some of these people that are going to school. Of course my wife, Helen, was a very dedicated teacher. She would teach for nothing, believe me.MR. B:You advocated, for example just before election that teachers should reside within the confines of the school system.MR. M:I imagine that wasn’t a bad idea. They have more of an identification with the people in the district. There are those who claim, of course, you get more diversified. If you live in other communities they bring to school different points of view. Who was it saying they had teachers who were not graduates from Fordson High School but they don’t have a wider outlook. I never thought that was a very valid argument but the school you went to whether it was Eastern, Michigan, Michigan State or any place else put your stamp upon you more than the high school did.MR. B:What about Judge Leo Schaefer’s one man grand jury? Do you remember that?MR. M:Vaguely. He had a one man grand jury in regard to the Ford Motor Company, didn’t he? Yes.MR. B:Well, this had to do with the Fordson School system.MR. M:I don’t remember that. (That must be) a long time ago. That was before my time.MR. B:No. I think it was during your time. That would have been in September. You came in in June. That would have been in September to investigate the records of the Fordson School system. Do you remember that event?MR. M:I don’t recall that at all. It must have been very dynamic. What did he do? Did he do anything?MR. B:I know you had a one man grand jury and I don’t think too much came out of it really. What about Harvey Lowrey?MR. M:Harvey Lowrey was very good. He was very, very good. He was scorned by those who wanted special advantage from him. He did a beautiful job for filling up the school system making it a model of its kind into a very high class school district. He encountered opposition. There was a recall campaign. Remember? Some of those let him go on the School Board. He went out and campaigned for those who would be in favor of his contract. He got his contract I think just before I got on the School Board. That was it. There are still some of those who are grumbling they should have thrown him out but he had to fight that all along. He took a great deal of criticism but he was pretty good. Not bad at all. You stack Lowrey against some of his successors, he was bigger, much better, I think. You had those on the Board that no matter what he did, they criticized.MR. B:Do you feel that Ford Motor had any input at all, or Henry Ford, into the Board of Education there at Fordson?MR. M:(They) controlled the City Hall in those days of Harry Bennett. I think they had an influence on the School Board, couple of which shall be nameless. I think they had an influence upon them. Yes, indeed, from this standpoint I think. They didn’t want their school taxes to go up because they would pay more. It was simply good business with them from their standpoint not to have too high a tax rate. They may have been instrumental in getting some people in this – teachers maybe in – (but) not very much along that line. Very little. MR. B:Remember you people had to cater to drastic changes in the teaching staff and wage adjustments which was largely ignored by Lowrey. Remember that?MR. M:What was that?MR. B:I don’t know whether that had to do with them being a residency but I imagine the wage adjustments would have been downward because this would have been along about 1934, ’35 thereabouts, ’33.MR. M:That would have been probably a couple of Board members. It might have been that.MR. B:Well, I’ll tell you one of the advocates was you, Bill Ferris, Sam Watkins, Bill Betzing. Four of you.MR. M:Downward? No. Here’s what happened. They were supposed to pass the budget in the spring. They didn’t pass it. Lowrey went off to Columbia leaving us holding the bag. That was a thing that wasn’t so good. Everybody does make a mistake but he went away to Columbia to summer school. We had to make out the budge. And there were three on one side and three on the other and I was the swing man in the middle. Yes, that’s right. We had to make up a complete budget and it wasn’t a matter of raising wages at all. It was just a matter of organizing what we would buy and what we wouldn’t buy in the school year. We had maintenance and employees and teachers and so forth.MR. B:This was largely ignored.MR. M:It wasn’t ignored at all. We passed it.MR. B:You passed (it). No, I mean by Lowrey.MR. M:No. He came back later on and he tried to make some changes but it still carried. It was still in the budget. He did fight against some things. Well, anyway, Watkins’ idea was to make some people principals, you see, and demote others. Cecil Clay I think was demoted because he wasn’t doing a very good job for budgeting. There were some who were changed around. I think that was it. And Lowrey didn’t go along with that and I went along with Lowrey. There were three of them on that deal. So Lowrey’s ideas were good in part. When they were, I upheld him and if they weren’t, I didn’t. That’s what happened.MR. B:Do you remember the Research Department they were supposed to set up with Chase?MR. M:It was in operation. It used to burn me. Vernon Chase was a very fine man who was principal of Fordson High School one time. Then he was director of Research and Development. That research was something else. My objection was like compiling records without any application. I remember particularly Mr. Chase’s word to my question was (to the) School Board, what good this department was doing to the school district. Well, his tests and so forth were available to the teachers. I said, “Hell, available? What does that mean? You know, available. You got to go to your office and pick them up? It doesn’t mean a damn thing. Get them out in the field. Get them out to the teachers where they can use them, you know. Just don’t have an ivory tower. (They) are available here and come on and get them by advertising. Don’t even advertise them.” We had hot and heavy sessions. But he was a nice man, Mr. Chase, real nice but not too great on application of practicalities.MR. B:When did you first hear about school consolidation?MR. M:Oh, I don’t know. Was it the last couple of years I was on the Board or before that? Who was that in northwest Dearborn who was advocating it? Of course, Fordson fought against it and a couple of members were particularly in the forefront and fighting it because their interest in the Ford Motor Company and in Fordson residents also. We have low tax rate based upon the Ford Motor Company and Dearborn had a high tax. Meaning (it) not quite the same thing, wouldn’t it? So from the standpoint of practical advantage, those in Fordson were opposed to consolidation.MR. B:How did you feel about it?MR. M:I think I went along with the idea. I was opposed to consolidation. I think I did. I don’t think I was so broad-minded not to. (Inaudible)MR. B:Of course, Fordson used scrip for a while, too.MR. M:That was when I first came out.MR. B:That was in ’34.MR. M:That was my slogan, remember? ’33. “Keep the Schools Open Because Some Board Member is Going to Class Down the Schools.” Bing, bing, bang, bang and I said no we don’t have to close the schools down. We’ll issue scrip. We kept the schools open.MR. B:And then they were paid off before the due date.MR. M:That’s right. YesMR. B:What made you run for justice of the peace after you had already been re-elected to the Board?MR. M:Because I had in the back of my head (of) wanting to become a judge someday.MR. B:Now concerning starting your running for justice of the peace after you’ve been re-elected.MR. M:I saw the opening, so far as Leo was concerned. Not only an opening but a necessity. Leo was great but he didn’t work. He was gifted by having money and his escapades were notorious – drinking around, never being in court practically once every week, maybe once every two weeks – that sort of thing. It was rough on lawyers who wanted to practice a case before him. Lila made a great to-do about the fact she was there on time. She was. She left at noon but she was there at nine o’clock. And so anyway I thought I could make it. I didn’t but I came very close. Yes, very close. And I came very close because I did it for one reason, I ran a clean campaign. If I had held up the people’s view, the things that Leo was doing, I would have won in a walk. Once you have idealism in those days, note Sir Galahad that sort of thing. How did I do? I think it was a precinct out of old Dearborn came in, Lindberg School, and knocked me off by about four hundred votes. It was a good experience. I’m talking about way back in ’35.In the ’35 campaign and the ’39 campaign. It was four years later I ran again. Once again, Sir Galahad. You think about yourself and you think how can you be so foolish. But you are and this time I beat Leo in the primary. I had a deal on with John Fish. I said, “John, the third man can win. The fourth man cannot win. Whoever comes in third will stay in third and the fourth man will drop out and support the third man. Is that a deal?” “That’s a deal.” “Okay, fine.” I knocked off Leo. Lila came in first; I came in second; Leo came in third. John Fish came in fourth. The result went John Fish was advised by some of his supporters not to drop out. And so he didn’t drop out. He welched on the deal which is one of things that happened. And they came down this time by coming in the final. They put out a letter from Henry Ford saying it would be a terrible thing if Leo Schaefer was elected. They put out. They imported Rev. Gerald L. K. Smith from Louisiana, Alabama, someplace. They had me being supported by the union which was just starting in those days. They brought out of fire taking a picture of a Russian bear putting its hands upon the bench, you know. And that was me that was taking over. And they won by two hundred votes. It was a massive campaign. The blonde bombshell. What’s his name? Verlin Doonan was in charge of the campaign. He gave out jobs at Ford Motor Company. They also took photographs of those who worked for me in the various election booths. “We don’t know how you’re going to vote. We know this much, if your precinct votes for Martin, you get fired.” I like those tactics, commonplace around the United States and various places where they have high powered politics. But they are always a little difficult to overcome.MR. B:You can’t beat City Hall I see.MR. M:Harry Bennett, Harry Bennett, no, Harry Bennett and Verlin Doonan.MR. B:Of course Doonan was on the Safety Commission too.MR. M:Of Course the Ford Motor Company endorsed it. John Carey and all that deal. Yes.MR. B:But getting down to 1942 when you decided toMR. M:’42. That was when Leo went to war. He had to resign. Well, more than that, there was a charter coming up, wasn’t there? Yes. A charter was coming up and let’s see, in ’39 the four years would not be up until ’43 if I ran again in ’43. It was a new charter coming up. It was coming up for election for approval in 1942 and at the same time a full slate of officers would be elected. The charter went down, you went down. If the charter passed and you got elected, you win. The Council appointed George Belding in the place of Leo Schaefer because he had been secretary of the Council as a paid job. So it’s understandable of the appointment. Although I was the choice of the public, he was the choice of the politicians. And so he made it pretty good. So in the ’42 election, why, I beat him very badly. There were two elected but it didn’t make much difference. MR. B:Of course Lila was out of the picture at this time. Lila Neuenfelt, she’d already gone on to the Circuit Court.MR. M:That’s right. Yes. I think Ralph Guy ran at that time. Who else ran? Oh, there were a number ran at that time, yes. Cecoursey ran, Nowodworski ran, quite a few ran.MR. B:Well, you’ve already indicated, Judge, the difference of philosophy between you and Hubbard as far as you being the idealist he being the pragmatist, the practical politician.MR. M:That’s right.MR. B:But when did this enmity or feud, whatever you want to call it, begin?MR. M:When did it flare out in the open, you mean? They were behind the scenes in the ’49 election, ’49 or ’45 election. Was there an election in ’45? No. Election of ’49, yes, it must be an election of ’45, too. ’43, ’45. It was in ’45 and ’49 I got more votes than he did. I think there was. That’s when it kicked off because people went around saying the one who can beat Hubbard is Martin, see. This is an anathema to Hubbard. (He) looked upon that job as being a mayor and being a lifesaver from a life of mediocrity. Before that time he was never very much good at anything. And so here is his chance and have anybody come along as challenging him. It was something that he was literally opposed, fought against every way he could, as crooked as he could, as low as he could. So he did. And I don’t think it minimized, you see. That was his long shot. Long before the election he tried to minimize you. That was his tactics. He was trying to degrade you any way he could. That’s what he did. It flared out when? When did it flare out? Yes, I know exactly when it flared out, not during the recall but after recall. In the recall he was very palsy-walsy. After recall he made a crack, yes. He was always trying to say to denigrate the courts. It burned him up that I had changed the court by the peace court into a municipal court with many more advantages to give the people, you see. And I’ve been running a lot of things for the benefit of the people in the court. It’s what bothered him because he built me up and didn’t want me built up in Dearborn. I might be a threat to him so Belding resigned. Sixty-five hundred dollars wasn’t much to work and (he had) a baby boy and a daughter. He quit to become a lawyer and practice law (to) make much more money. Well, all in all Hubbard was saying “Belding was a poet and also a man who went up north on vacations.” So Hubbard said, “There isn’t enough work in that court to merit one judge because one judge, don’t you know, writes poetry and the other judge can go up north in the summertime. He can go to Florida in the wintertime; he can go fishing …” and so on and what the hell else. It was quite a rigamarole anyhow. Big, big, you know, big abuse. So Belding resigned and I say, “Okay, I’m going for a charter amendment, the one judge and associate.” “Little Boy Blue is going to call your shot kid, call your shot.” That’s why I threw that around town like crazy, about what he had said. I couldn’t lose, you see, because you could never say after that that I didn’t go for one judge. So I had him. And we beat him. We fought like the devil for it because he had Little Boy Blue, little Guy in there, see.The Little Guy was a jackal. Ralph Guy did everything Hubbard ordered him to and so he ran and opposed me. He ran for the job of associate judge. I beat him. Mostly this time the charter amendment I figured what it cost. (A) very fierce battle. I beat Hubbard on that. So there’s one full time judge and one associate judge. And even after that was passed by the people by a good vote, Hubbard had seven of his lawyers in the City Hall declare it was unconstitutional, illegal and so forth. I refused that Guy did not have to get out of office. He remained in office. He was off then. They thought, well, Martin is going to do is go to the Circuit Court and issue a writ of quo (by what right do you hold this office). It would take a year or so before that came up and then another time for a couple of more years for it to come up before the Supreme Court. Well, I bypassed all that. I went right straight to the Supreme Court. And I got a unanimous decision from the Supreme Court. What I had drafted was proper and legal. Mr. Guy was associate judge. He came up for election in April the following year and that year I elected McWilliams. He was the successor and Mr. Guy was out.MR. B:He became president of the Council.MR. M:He did indeed. A jackal for Hubbard, a jackal all the way along.MR. B:We’re going back here. The Justice of the Peace became the Municipal Court.MR. M:Yes.MR. B:Did you and Belding talk about this at all?MR. M:It was my idea all the way along the line. I worked all this. He joined with me but it was more passive. That was in ’45.MR. B:Yes. Actually around December of ’45 it gave him (the judge) more power, is that correct?MR. M:It gave him much more power, much more opportunity for service, better jurisdiction in every respect. And after that I went before the Legislature (The) Municipal Judge(s) Association of Michigan. I drafted about seventeen laws to better it. They got Municipal Courts not only in Dearborn but all around the state. I also increased the jurisdiction. I think it was by a charter amendment. I had about two or three charter amendments. I had to initiate by petition and then put the name through and then push them in the election. It seems there was always an election every two years in Dearborn for a long time there. (I was) involved in something or other. I had a traffic school going. I had Parents’ School going. And, oh God, I remember those nights, Saturdays and Sundays. I had a Monday night court. I had Saturday court.MR. B:I want to get into some of this here, Your Honor. With all this harassment between you and Hubbard and the enmity that was between you two, why did you stay on the bench? Why didn’t you go for some other office?MR. M:I could have gone for mayor and beaten him. He wouldn’t know what happened. He would have gone for judge and made it. That’s what happened. Just like Guy not getting knocked off, become Council head. That’s what would have happened.MR. B:Well, why didn’t you run, say, for, we’ll say, State senator?MR. M:No, no, no, no. No, there’s a certain type of work you’re interested in, you know, and you feel you can do some great good in it. That was part of being judge. You can have anything crooked you want, executive branch of the government, legislative branch of the government, but you get something in the courts, then you are in bad shape. The courts are kept up. The other two can be held in line but once your courts go, everything goes to hell. That was the reason.MR. B:You bringing up about this the full time work and part-time judge, of course, Judge Guy brings up the problem – and I think you’ve answered this question already that you’ve been on the bench for nine years, why didn’t you being this up before?MR. M:The man (Guy) went to Florida, never did a thing on the bench, you know. And he was on there. He asked why he didn’t do something. All the things that I’ve been doing?MR. B:It was also brought out about Governor Williams’ name being used.MR. M:Sure it was. There’s a newspaper article in The Detroit News about it, “Governor Gets A Hot Foot On A Dearborn Issue.” That’s what that’s about. Guy, yes. I remember he talked about why didn’t Judge Martin do more? And this tweet twirt never did a thing. “Why don’t you try to get increased jurisdiction?” I said. They wrote to all the people in town trying to get them to bring their cases into court. We got to have something else better than that. And what else is there about that? Come again with the cue. About not doing something, yes. Why didn’t I have this thing before about the one judge, yes. Well, in nine years, ’51, ’42. Well, I was so busy, number one. I think I know how to answer him. Number one, I changed the court over from a JP court (to a) municipal court to give more service to the public. In the next five years after that, I tried every way possible to give more service to the public but sill I was handling all the work pretty much. In the ads that the billboards had: “Vote Yes On Proposition” whatever it was. The other courtroom was mostly empty. One judge doing all the work and the other courtroom was mostly empty. And this proposition approved by the Governor was on the bottom. Thus, Guy was sent hot footing up to Lansing in his baby blue Continental Lincoln to tell the Governor what a horrible thing I was doing in Dearborn, advertising that he was in back of my amendment for lone judge and associate judge. Well, the hell of it that, “This guy, Martin, I’m dealing with, terrible.” The Governor says, “It’s a darn shame. I didn’t approve of that amendment at all.” I came back and suggested, “You did, Governor. The Detroit News article. The state law required the Governor of the State of Michigan approve every amendment that goes on the ballot. You approved it. It says so in writing.” That’s what happened.MR. B:You know you did a tremendous amount of changing the court. As a matter of fact you’ve been feted many, many times for your efforts and everything else. How did the Mayor take all of these changes?MR. M:Hated it. Just hated it. And I see this was always a threat if Martin runs for mayor. He’s got this tremendous list of accomplishments in back of him, see. All be goody, goody boy; the idealistic politician; all that junk. In Hubbard’s opinion, he is a threat, very much a threat. How am I coming down? The last time I got the award the the best city court (of its size) in the United States, Supreme Court Justice Thomas Clark was coming from Washington to make the presentation. And what happened to little boy Hubbard? He is in all kinds of dirty, scandalous material to Clark (in) trying to get him to stop him from coming. Clark came anyway. He checked with the people in Chicago as to what the real situation was. They told him about the Hubbard tactics. So he came anyhow. And it was very nice to have the Supreme Court judge come out to Dearborn to make the presentation. I thought at the time that I would have a little party for him. And so we did. (We) had a party at the Dearborn Inn and invited all the judiciary. It was the first time that a Supreme Court Justice had come to Michigan in a long, long time, Detroit area. We had one hell of a party, one tremendous luncheon at the Dearborn Inn. In fact every judge around here was there. The Circuit Court was really about the low man on the totem pole. It was quite a thing. I did well. I remember Bugas himself getting (to) the Dearborn Inn before the meeting. Bugas was head of the FBI and then went to the Ford Motor Company. He had worked under Clark when Clark was the Attorney General. There was a great friendship there.MR. B:I was wondering whether you knew Justice Clark before he came?MR. M:No.MR. B:How did you feel about (the) loyalty oath?MR. M:Dearborn had a loyalty oath, didn’t they? Silly thing but anyhow why not? Who could avoid giving a loyalty oath? I didn’t have any objection to that. That was against your constitutional rights of some kind, I suppose. It never loomed very large in my book.MR. B:Well, I’ve got quite a few people mentioned here, Your Honor, and I think you talked about a few. I’m not going to raise your ire too much here about some of them but how about Pat Doyle?MR. M:Pat Doyle was a good, good man. He was. He ran for Council many times before he finally made it. After he became Councilman, he got into the Legislature. (From the) Legislature he was sweet talked and conned into coming back and being on the Council, although contrary to the law, contrary to the charter to do so. Once he came to issue with Hubbard. Hubbard called his attention. For a while there I don’t think he got paid. He didn’t get paid at all. He got conned, see, got sold down the river by Hubbard. So many were done that way, you know. So many thought they could believe what Hubbard said. He was just a Machiavellian Politian. That’s what he was. You had to recognize that. MR. B:How about Lucille McCollough?MR. M:Lucille started out on his side and that’s your school teacher. There were many bitter battles in the Council between herself and Maggie Johnson. And then at one time was it during the recall or what it was? It must have been during the recall, she swung the other way. Hubbard had no praise too high for her before and no contempt for her so deep as he had afterwards. She fought him and she ran for (the) Legislature and I helped to get her elected to the Legislature.MR. B:She and Pat Doyle helped push through a bill for you, too, didn’t he?MR. M:Yes. I’m sure they did.MR. B:Yes. I think it was as far as the court was concerned. I know you worked hand and glove with them on an issue.MR. M:Yes I know. We had so many bills up there, about seventeen. That’s a tremendous amount of legislation to get through. I forget all of them. We had them passed but they were all for the benefit of making the court better, giving better service and getting more facilities, more opportunity.MR. B:John McWilliams.MR. M:John McWilliams started out as a running “Jack The Giant Killer” against Hubbard one campaign. He didn’t do too badly. And he worked at General Motors. He was let out because he refused to move somewhere. (He was) let out because he had criticized some of the bigwigs. Somebody put it down to his credit that he had done something noble. They wanted a yes man and he didn’t turn out to be a yes man. Anyhow, he ran for the opening at the time when Guy was up. And there were a number of them running. There were any number that I would have preferred to McWilliams but McWilliams made it in the primary against Guy. I had no choice but to go in that direction. So he was elected. (It was) not a very good election return by that time.The next time up to bat he got phlebitis. He couldn’t campaign. So I carried him all during the whole campaign. I got him elected over - who was running? Who was it? Yes, I think it was B. Ward Smith. B. Ward Smith and the fellow who is now the judge out in Dearborn Heights. What is his name? Nice fellow too. A Hubbard man at the time. (He) turned against him later on. Anyhow I carried McWilliams’ campaign. McWilliams had the General Motors idea that he could move in, you see. Wipe the hand that feeds you. I remember going to a budge meeting and Hubbard telling me about how McWilliams was no good. And I said, “You’re twenty-sixth in line, Orvie, you’re twenty-sixth in line. I’ve heard this all before” and how he was going to double cross him and everything else.Well, it came to a head one time when I went on vacation. I came back and suddenly it appears I was the associate judge and McWilliams was running the show, you see. And I just didn’t cater to that idea at all. And so I used that as an excuse to offend his feelings. He went full blast in Hubbard’s direction. Hubbard then had young Mr. Guy, who became Corporate Counsel, draft an ordinance whereby young Mr. McWilliams would get paid full time judge’s salary. The rumor is that Hubbard said, “You got to do this, Guy.” So Guy did it and then it came down to the point where legality (inaudible) I sat back, waiting for him to see what they (would) do about it. So Mr. Godette had to teach law to young Mr. Guy, see. He said to him, “Well, I cannot pay this fellow McWilliams because it’s against the law.” Imagine Godette telling young Guy it’s against the law? I couldn’t believe it. Guy is a Corporation Counsel and a Controller, who never went a day to law school, telling him it’s against the law. But whatever excuse, they didn’t pay McWilliams. “We’ll make it up to you. We’ll make it up to you.” They’ll have a Council initiate a proposal whereby there will be two full time judges. “Yes, we’ll have that.” So I had to fight that thing. (I) got elected. The next thing they had was we’ll have it whereby the court will have to have night court. You had to work certain hours, certain times during the day and so forth, (and) set the whole thing up. There was the cute part of it because everything they proposed, except night court every night, was what I was already doing. It was true. And most people didn’t realize how much I was doing. I was carrying on a three-front campaign that year. Yes I was. It was my own election. There was also a matter in regard to salary increase. What else was there? There were three things (that) were coming at one time. I won on two and lost on that one. I lost the one in regard to the court hours.MR. B:That’s when they put you down to thirty-three and a half hours?MR. M:No, no. They didn’t cut me down anything. That they were trying to do was this, to make it so that there would be such hours in the court that one man couldn’t handle it. It would be necessary for the associate judge to move in. I froze him out. I did the whole damn thing myself. They very next election that came up I came up with the idea of a charter amendment to (inaudible) number one. I won without my turning my hand around.The main thing you haven’t mentioned so far (is) Mrs. Martin, have you? All during these campaigns Hubbard, knowing how close I was to Helen who would involve her in scurrilous, damnable, town wide advertising. That was the rotten part of it, the rotten part about it. It’s one thing to fight in politics but bringing your family in is something else. Anyhow.MR. B:What about Jim Thomson?MR. M:Jimmy Thomson was an attorney who was a good attorney and he had too many friends. He was quite a sharp attorney. He started up when Hubbard was going to condemn Neckel Avenue on which he lived. He decided to oppose him. And, of course, opposing him he read law books and made various propositions in regard to city government. And they caused a great deal of trouble. At that time Dale Fillmore was the corporate counsel. It caused a great deal of trouble for them and they won. A lot of them. The Council would propose charter amendments and Jimmy would fight against them, find the law that they were to and have the thing thrown out of court.There was one time about five (of them) including the one in regard to my raise. Yes, from $6500 to $15,000. And Jimmy was able to knock out all of them except mine. Mine was known as Proposition No. 7. I had advertised all over town it was Proposition No. 7. Dale Fillmore and Guy, president of the Council, got together. They decided at the last minute, the last week of the campaign, to change the proposition number from No. 7 to No. 8. And all my advertisements (had) gone to No. 7. Luckily when Jimmy came along and knocked out all their propositions there was only one proposition on the ballot and that was mine. That was cute, wasn’t it? All that’s laughable, isn’t it? They were laughing themselves going down the hall, Fillmore and Guy, about what a rotten, dirty trick they had done to Martin and that they changed the name, changed the number and so forth. The next week Hubbard was cursing in his office. You could hear him a block away. My amendment went through because he didn’t want to have any raise by himself. (there were) two reasons.One was having more money with which to oppose him and the other thing was to realize that his office then was degrading. His office was only paying $6500 before he took office and before the ’42 charter amendment. He paid about $3000, wasn’t it? The judge was the only one that paid $6500 in those days. The charter in ’65 gave Hubbard the same kind of a salary that the judges had, $6500. But Hubbard always operated on this theory. To keep a job from being too attractive, nobody would run for it. So I’m only getting $6500 from what the public knows. Whatever I may be getting otherwise in the way of gratuities and so forth. (The) public doesn’t know about it. That’s what makes the job attractive to him, you see. All the tendentious benefits, all the rest of the things you know, car gifts. These things are what made the job attractive and the other person on the outside wouldn’t know about that. When I got the raise to $15,000 that threw him into a tizzy because he couldn’t just bear the idea of anybody else getting paid more money ostensibly. So in the next election he went for a charter amendment. I had to go out and get a petition of mine signed by the people, $25,000 wasn’t it? Something like that. Was it $20,000? Well, anyhow, he had the Council pass one. We are going to work too long. And, of course, it passed. They went up to $17,500. I didn’t oppose it. As far as I was concerned if he’s (a) good mayor of Dearborn, I think he should get paid in my position you know, $50,000, $100,000, what it was. If he was a good man, run the government, we would be paying him for good service. That’s what I felt. That impulse, yes, $17,500. He was very happy.MR. B:I know, for example, that some years the Mayor gave you everything you wanted. One year it was $22,000 and yet a couple of years later, why, you lost your probation officer.MR. M:That’s right. You see I had as my slogan for the charter amendment making one judge and associate judge. These things, “Save Money For A Change. Vote Yes on Number 1.” I pointed out you could save money by having this thing done. Immediately after that election Hubbard began throwing everything into the court’s budget, court officers, police officers who came to court, the jail costs. Name something, he threw it in.Hubbard was a low lifer, you know. He had no class at all. He had a buffoon’s idea of behavior. He had no class. As he told me many times, “If I were in your shoes,” – I was doing something – “I would do it much better than you’re doing it.” Even being a villain, you know, a very good villain. He was low class villain, just a crummy, cheap white trash you might call him. White trash type, cheap little junk. Anyway, what were we talking about?MR. B:Well, we were talking about the budget.MR. M:Probation officer, yes. He came down to Detroit and said, “I can get rid of Martin’s probation officer. He’s using a great deal on these activities.” I got rid of that by requiring the Circuit Court on which he was a supervisor of Wayne County. He said in these Board of Supervisors meetings, “The Circuit Court is handling the Probation Department for all the courts around Wayne County, all outside of Detroit. (If) they can do it for them, they can do it for Dearborn. It will take that cost off our shoulders.” Very good. Some of the boys down there at Circuit Court, what did they say about it? Something was wrong with it but they didn’t point that out. They couldn’t point it out. (What) they do for outside courts is just about a month late. It’s second hand service. (The) Circuit Court’s work is done first. Right? Naturally it would. And so the probation officer get a chance. They’ll take care of the other stuff. It was a hand-me-down sort of situation and they didn’t indulge in duty at all. They weren’t doing the stuff that I was doing in my probation department. So okay and oh, what’s the name of that fellow who used to – Broomhall. If you read the villainous kind of things they said in the Council minutes regarding myself, in regard to Helen, you will notice that some of these write-ups. The probation issue came up. (Broomhall) said, “We have a choice of having a little steamer out in Lake Camp Dearborn or having a probation officer. Well, I would go for a little steamer out in Camp Dearborn any time before the probation officer.” Big laugh from the audience. Big deal. Big deal. Service the people. Yes. Entertainment and circuses before getting down to real life.So I went for a charter amendment. I made a boo boo. I made a boo boo because I was trying to be too decent about it. The boo boo I made was in saying that the probation officer would have Civil Service status. The things you do, you know. And so they said the Governor’s office has to approve these things. They called Lansing and sent down word. The charter amendment was not approved because the probation department (people are) hired through Lansing. That was one of those shocking times in a person’s life when you realize what all this work I did, all these petitions, the work involved with the thing. I had to change around once (with the) typewriters. (The) printer made some error and changed the whole thing go through and here, the third time right off the bat, it’s thrown out. Yes. Just imagine how Hubbard was enjoying that in the Council chambers over there in the City hall. “I told the boys that Martin thinks he’s so smart, look at the boo boo he made.” I don’t appreciate it. You know, it proved it to Lansing. It was one of those nice times he had at my expense. And, of course, I was wrong and we were rolling your own. And, of course, I was able to recoop because I found the provisional law that you had to vote on the thing anyhow even though it wasn’t approved. How do you like that? The people were nice even if it wasn’t approved. They approved it. They voted for it. Now that’s a thing (you) had to put up a probation officer on the charter amendment, you know. It’s a horrible thing to do. You had to fight Hubbard. You got to fight him right where you can. I was seeing about the court clerk, you see – also involved. Anyhow after that happened, Hubbard realized that the people approved it. And he had then gone ahead and removed the probation officer’s money from the budget. He was going contrary to the expressed will of the people. It would have been a markup on his name. Wouldn’t it? He would look very poorly. So he didn’t do it. He carried every probation officer I hired. I told him, “You’re living under a sword.” The Council or the Mayor wants to do anything, they can cut out your salary just like that because you have no legal standing for it. They carried on and the probation officer carried on the usual activities. MR. B:Why do you think the voters would vote for these things and yet would also vote for Hubbard?MR. M:That was one of the oddest things in Dearborn’s history. Here are two men who stand for two entirely different things. One man with a gigantic organization, the whole City Hall at his disposal. Tremendous resources, tremendous. Money, manpower, everything else and all they do about me is that they knew me. And Hubbard says, “His eyes are purple with yellow dots.” They didn’t believe it. They knew better. They knew also I was doing a job. Hubbard got up at Fordson High School and said, “Martin is doing this and so and so and so. He’s rotten,” and everything else. They knew better. That’s how he couldn’t make it stick. They knew also that something inherently rotten about Hubbard. They knew that. He was providing good services. We know there’s something rotten about the guy. He was always providing good service, okay. Whereas Martin’s concerned. He’s providing good service; he’s a good guy and we’ll vote for him, see? That was a human nature, wasn’t it?MR. B:Did you two ever appear together in a public function?MR. M:Back in 1945 or so I swore him in. They used that picture later on. I wasn’t crazy about swearing him in. But I did. What else? In the early days, why, we’d be at various public functions together and, of course, we went through the amenities together at that time but it was (with) the realization someday something is going to happen here. You better keep your powder dry. As Hubbard said to me one time, “You’ve been very careful haven’t you, much more careful than Belding?” He knew. However, about twenty-five years I had, didn’t I? Twenty-four years. Ten years on the School Board.MR. B:Are you still working for a circuit court in Dearborn?MR. M:No. You see I would have liked to in’66 around ’65. I was trying. That was one of my things as I had made quite a survey of courts and found that out in Los Angeles they had decentralized their courts. As a result they felt it would be a good idea that a circuit court in Dearborn would serve western Wayne County. So far as the powers that be down here are concerned, the majority of judges were opposed to it. Why? They didn’t relish the idea of having courts split up. They felt as though there would be practical things involved sending out files and sending out juries. They wanted centralization.Most of all here’s what happened. Coleman Young realized that the law is a big part of Detroit’s economy. I don’t know if it is number three or number four. He has exerted all of his influence to keep the courts from being subdivided and part of them going away. They have done partly. They’ve had a criminal division sitting out in Eloise for a while. A little while there they had Tom Brennen sitting in my old courtroom upstairs as Circuit Court judge. Lack of space. They also had diversified to this extent that they’ve had a number of greater judges in the City County Building. They’ve had five judges in the old County Building. They got eight judges over here. You know? This thing could carry on for a long, long time because to build a one court of justice for all the Circuit Court would run about a hundred million dollars. You are not going to have a hundred million dollars for quite a while unless it comes from the United States Government or something like that. So these courts you see up there? It’s just ridiculous how things are mockery in court rooms. (It’s) not worthy of any court let alone the Circuit Court. But they have diversified sent out some of the business out to Dearborn. But my idea would still have been a good one but having run into opposition for a while there we had a tremendous campaign. We had the Board of Supervisors and under tremendous structures from all out County activities. I ran the campaign but they stuck to their guns. Under Coleman Young they used a bench. That’s the things that happen.MR. B:Are you working for any changes at all at this time?MR. M:No. As a visiting judge, you are not quite in the same status as an elected judge. So I’m not working on (anything). You don’t have quite the same clout either, you see. You don’t participate in judge’s decisions.MR. B:What was the function of the Dearborn Municipal Court Advisory Counsel? There were twenty members that were appointed to that.MR. M:Yes. And they came along at a very good time too. There was much talk about all we need and we’re dying for not having two judges. We’re in a bad way. We ought to have two judges. So I’ll appoint an Advisory Counsel. I didn’t have them appointed. I had them elected by various organizations around town. Name some outstanding organization, they had somebody on the Advisory Counsel. Alright. So we made a study. There was Black on it, a fellow by the name of Black, and somebody else too. They were two good chairmen. They saw Hubbard and everything else and around town (taking) notes. Just about the time that Hubbard came out with his proposal with the Council (to) put them on the ballot for two judges, (the) Advisory Counsel came out and said all we needed (was) just one judge associate. They were working on it for a couple of years. Certainly not. So that ammunition to go for the idea of one judge and associate to run for two full term judges. Hubbard changed course completely because he wanted one of his stooges on the bench. That was (the) practical politician. Somebody would just say, “I would fix the ticket,” you know. I wouldn’t do that for anybody.MR. B:I know “the fix-it.”MR. M:That’s right.MR. B:That was repealed.MR. M:That was just during the time I worked on more ordinances and they repealed them. Hubbard got a chance to do it. (We) had a beautiful system going out there. The police couldn’t fix tickets because the police officer issued the ticket. It’s now in triplicate. I had (it) in quadruplicate where you would find out. We’d check with them as to what happened to that ticket which appeared in my file. He had to produce it. Beautiful system. They had inaugurated a system whereby Maggie Johnson had three days to look over all tickets before she would send them over to the Court. Beautiful system. MR. B:Incidentally going back here when you didn’t have a probation Judge, what did you do with a violator?MR. M:Probation officer. I had a probation officer all along.MR. B:Oh, did you?MR. M:It was only when a period of time between the charter amendment and the time the budget ran out. During that time, why, as I say, (the) money would be expended at that time. It ran out in June, you see. So the charter amendment came up before that and Hubbard renewed it in the budget. MR. B:Yes there was a period there when he cut it out of the budget, wasn’t there; when you did not have a probation officer?MR. M:I had a probation (officer) all the time.MR. B:Oh, did you?MR. M:Yes. It just worked out, you see. The salary was still there for the guy. The only time I didn’t have a probation officer was when one resigned or something like that happened.MR. B:Mentioning a couple more names here, Judge, John Baja, Jr.MR. M:John Baja was on the Council. He was elected as an independent and I helped him. He sold out to Hubbard. I stopped helping him. It’s awfully difficult to avoid selling out to Hubbard, you know. He had everything in town going for him. You couldn’t really blame the Bajas and McWilliams and so forth. They had everything offered to them. Well, all kinds of everything that you give him. So there is very much that they did but the use of a City car, free gas, all these little emoluments, all on the build-up that they give you through The Dearborn Press & Guide. It’s power.MR. B:What about Frank Scanlon?MR. M:He was on the traffic right off the bat. When I first started out, he was on the Traffic School. He was a teacher, a run. Frank was really good. Frank had a great tremendous amount of courage. He didn’t have the punch for the cause. He sort of caved in. Pretty bad feature. Some men are great gymnasium fighters but not great when they get in the ring, you know. He was a good guy.MR. B:How about Bill Ross.MR. M:Bill Ross went along beautifully for many years being objective. Then about the last ten years of his career he began to slide. I notice it. And when he brought in young Mr., what’s his name?MR. B:Hoffman.MR. M:He slid even more because Hoffman went into Hubbard’s pocket to the extent that Hubbard financed his campaign for County Commissioner. So it is said. You know the papers of Dearborn enjoy the great handout from the City. If you are running a newspaper, you’re getting free cuts of free handouts and so forth and practically your paper is almost half done for you. Not bad, not bad at all. You know? You cut down an awful lot of labor when you have an awful lot of stuff they handed out to you. So it’s understandable that newspapers feel kind of friendly, kind of at least sympathetic on somebody that’s getting all this largess. You got to give Bill credit. There was one time when Bill was taken to task at a Council meeting by Hubbard. “All these stories about what Martin is doing, Ross, I don’t like this. There’s nothing except rotten Martin propaganda. That’s all it is, rotten propaganda for Martin.” Ross said to him, “How about the propaganda you put out, Mr. Mayor? How about that?” They parted enemies. And what happened? Bill Ross found that a lot of things were going to happen and did happen, little tricky stuff. They had parking meters out in front, checking on the cars out there that sort of thing. No handouts. Nothing. Nobody talked to you. The old frozen treatment that they give out in City Hall in those days was big deal, you know. Nobody spoke to you just an anathema. You’re an outcast. You’re austricized, boycotted. That was one of the techniques that Hubbard had. Bill was on the outside. Bill got that for a couple of weeks or better. And then they finally caved in and realized after all a paper is a paper. You spank the boys, you see. You realize you got a spanking and so now maybe he’ll be a better boy in the future. It was pretty good, though. You got to hand it to him. In spite of all the blanishments and all the opportunities to go the other way and go hog length the other way like Bob Smith did. Bob Smith was nothing. He was just a businessman making a newspaper. There should be a law somewhere with all the regards to freedom of the press. There should be a law that you can’t, just can’t go unreasonably over to the side of the enemy to get along.MR. B:How about Ed Dombrowski? I know he was for you there in the very beginning.MR. M:Yes he was. But once he went with Hubbard, you see. As Hubbard told one of my people (who) was running for Council, “If we tell you to cut Martin’s throat, you got to cut his throat. Understand that’s the base on which we elect you, on the base which we support you.”MR. B:How about John Kadela?MR. M:John Kadela went along beautifully with Hubbard in various capacities. He opposed me on the Court when he was controller. When Duane Dunnik resigned, rather than do the dirty thing that they wanted him to do. They wanted him to bring a law suit. Kadela brought the law suit and he lost it. But anyhow, he was a stooge. And when you work for Hubbard, you’re a stooge. That’s all. He tells you so. He said, “When I call you at two o’clock in the morning and you’re with your wife in bed, come out.” He even put those little things on their hands where they had to come and respond and all those little demonstrations of power and subservience. As far as John was concerned when Johnny came in and beat one of those two, one was up for associate judge – the third time up for McWilliams – I encouraged about ten attorneys to run at that time figuring that they would not get as many votes as McWilliams. They would not get as many votes as McWilliams in the primary at all but the over-all building up of the addition of their total votes would be an indication for dissatisfaction. I was hoping somebody else would win besides Kadela, to tell you the truth, because this close relationship with Hubbard. Then when he did win, it was a case of McWilliams for himself. That was another situation like it was between McWilliams and Guy, you see.So John (Kadela) came to the house and said he would be idealistic. He wouldn’t fix tickets for Hubbard and that sort of thing. So I said, “Okay, fine.” So anyway there was a sign out saying, “Help Judge Martin Elect A Loyal Associate, John L. Kadela.” The loyal associate got to Hubbard. The last couple of weeks of the campaign, all those signs were torn down. John Kadela was elected. He was a loyal associate.I’d have to praise him very, very highly. He did a splendid job as a judge. He was punctilious in regard to legal principles and judicial ethics. He was very conscientious as a judge. He was excellent. He was more than excellent, by golly, he was outstanding. He was tremendous. I was surprised. I didn’t expect that to happen. He knew how big McWilliams was but to use the lesser of two evils is what he was.MR. B:Where I see the break between you and McWilliams was over the new building.MR. M:There was a kickoff before that but the new building came along. Hubbard told me right after I organized the first St. Patrick’s Day parade that was ever held in the Detroit in fifty years. I worked on Maureen (Kean) to get his cooperation even though the very last minute he wanted to charge me for putting in the reviewing stand. At any rate, why, he told me that, “I want to talk to somebody I’d like to know.” He called me this morning, he says, “We’re going to change the Police and Firemen Building over into court.” “Is that so?” “Yes.” So I opposed him on the grounds it will be there for a long time to come and there will not be any commentary upon people in Dearborn as always having any idea architectural goodness. That kind of court which beautified up like as though you beautify a garage, home, you know, with some chintz curtains and so forth. It looks very pretty. It’s not very impressive on the outside at least. So then he gave McWilliams a free reign and McWilliams came out with all kinds of ideas like the drive-in window and so on and so on and so on. They were hearing trials outside and television etc. The Bar Association laughed at McWilliams on it. It made for good ink. It made for a lot of publicity. It worked out all right. I opposed it. I opposed it knowing. I thought to myself, “I know I’m going to lose in this one because he’s got the power to put the Court anyway he wants to right in the boiler room of the City Hall if he wants to. He can do that. He’s got the power for it. Because the fact that he’s got the power, I’m going to oppose on principle the courts are better than this. Just like I opposed this sort of thing. Sometimes you have to run (an) audit. This isn’t done on account of meanness. This is done just through their own little finances, see. This kind of court here pillars and so forth and less than soundproof walls, etc. in Dearborn when they have the finances for it. Maggie Johnson was very much in favor of having the Court near the Police Department. (She) didn’t want to go chasing from down there at Greenfield, down to Maple (on), police business and so forth. (She) wanted to have them close at hand.MR. B:Maggie Johnson had passed away by that time.MR. M:No she hadn’t. No, no, indeed. Maggie was right there at that time. She had a big hand in that idea. And also Hubbard has talked a great deal about fire protection, fire stations. Were they right or not? I don’t know. People always talk about the fire stations. Now people didn’t think fire stations were necessary. Maybe not. It wasn’t. So what are you going to do with the damn thing? Turn it into a court. He thought it was beautiful, see.MR. B:I won’t bring up about the parking space.MR. M:Yes. Miss Clark. (inaudible) When you think about how Roger Craig got so incensed at Archer. Miss (Irma) Clark was really quite courageous and quite indignant about the damn thing. I didn’t think too much about it, you know. Just one (of those) little things. She really (got) worked up about it. But then they laid for her because who did they think was doing it? I certainly was doing it and they caught her in the act, see. She done it about a half dozen times. And this last time, why, the lieutenant out there and somebody else out there. And she used to be the secretary of the Police Department, you know, secretary to the Chief. So they all knew her mom. They hated doing it but it worked out. Then when she called me and she was in jail, who am I going to call now? So I called Roger Craig. And Roger Craig went over there and punch Archer until he was streaming blood. Then they had the trial. Then that was one thing too because I thought I got to disqualify myself and I had to have McWilliams to do it. But as luck would have it, I called McWilliams. He (said) no. No, he wouldn’t. He was too busy to handle it. So I called the fellow from the Municipal Judges Association. He handled it as the judge. The jury brought in a verdict of not guilty. Young Guy (was) trying the case with that real hot shot attorney he had with him. I forget what his name was. And Hubbard I guess criticized young Guy very much. An open and shut case. But the jury didn’t think so.Young Guy is very smart. Young Guy is very, very bright. He’s a very, very good legal scholar. The only thing I have against him, he never should have gone with Hubbard twelve years ago. I said, “Ralph, you shouldn’t stay around the City Hall too long. It’s the kind of atmosphere. It gets to you. Not too good.” But somehow or other I couldn’t understand it. As bright as he is, why, he hung around with Hubbard, you know. Maybe the money was good. Maybe he didn’t think he could do that good in private practice. I don’t know. There’s something about an office that gets to men sometimes. They hate to get out of it. They’re afraid of going on their own. This young Guy was very, very smart.MR. B:Well, Judge, moving into something that, I believe, is very close to your heart and which you instituted and that was the Home and Family Institute. What precipitated you in setting up this?MR. M:How long ago was it started? About ’45, ’44?MR. B:Yes. In June of ’44 actually.MR. M:Yes. At that time there was a tremendous amount of juvenile delinquency. You have no idea how much of a problem it was. It was the number one problem in the nation in the country, in the city and so forth. There was never very much time to do it and what you were doing about this situation. Just young people going to hell. And I found an old unused statute contributing to the delinquency of minors by parents in various ways. And I had all these cases involving non support, assault and batteries and all kinds of family related troubles. You realize that justifying or jail sentence is no good, you know, because the fine comes out of the family coffers. Right? The jail puts a guy in. That’s the way to say, “Put me in jail, Judge. Who’s going to support the family? How can they survive when I’m not working?” Beautiful logic, isn’t it? Beautiful logic. What do you do? Probation alone? Probation ordinarily doesn’t mean a hell of a lot. Probation committee report once a week, every three (weeks) or once a month maybe. Once a month. “You been a good boy?” “Yes.” “Change your address?” “No.” “You working?” “Yes.” Not a hell of a lot about probation. Just hanging over your head in case you get in trouble again. They can use it against you, you see. “Behave yourself.” (You didn’t behave yourself, now, socko.) Right? That’s about what probation means. So I had enlivened that probation by traffic school and the big condition of those who were bad drivers. I had to do something constructive. There was traffic school. I inaugurated it and also talked to these people. What can I do? Parental probation isn’t enough. I tried for a while a counselor. A counselor could handle about five people. This counsel took an awful lot of time, you know. They got to take, what they call them? Social workers. The social worker approach is really something because they get in debt. When they get in debt, they don’t get much production. You got a court situation you got production. You got to do something, you know. So I inaugurated this thing, giving these people something over and beyond the ordinary and some instructions about how to be a parent. I knew that ninety percent might blow right off the top of their heads. But ten percent stuck better than ordinary. Right? It was an idea to get all these people for free. Amazing. I got all these good experts to come. So it was a job to carry on Wednesday nights. Yes, Wednesday nights. Monday night was night court. Wednesday night was traffic school. Saturdays is traffic school.MR. B:Did your wife have anything to do with this at all?MR. M:Yes. She was always a wonderful person, you know, just a wonderful person, tremendous teacher. Naturally I talked it over with her about that whole Family Institute. She said, “I think it would be a good idea.” And so it was.MR. B:What do you think about the children’s rights now being advocated, that the children have rights?MR. M:They do. They do. But you still get around (to) the idea that somebody’s got to be boss in the home, you know. That’s the truth. Somebody’s got to give orders and they got to be reasonable about their orders, otherwise the children’s rights are being violated. But in all fairness, why, you just can’t circumscribe parents too much. You’ve got to be reasonable about it.MR. B:Was child abuse as much of a problem then as it is today?MR. M:No, it wasn’t. I wouldn’t say that. There are more people nowadays, so, therefore, there’s more child abuse cases today. That’s one thing.MR. B:Do you think the social changes have had quite a bit to do with the change as far as the family structure is concerned?MR. M:Yes, I do. I think it’s a shame that there are so many distractions upon the family influence that are taking away our feelings of how (the) family should be, you know. It’s just an economic fact that you have to have wives working. Right? Mothers working. You know that. They don’t have to but unfortunately if your wife were at home or mother at home, the family there has much more life, stability. Kids (are) away from home too. They lack that character and that social responsibility. You see the results are prevalent.MR. B:Did you examine the San Francisco experiment before you went into this Home and Family Institute?MR. M:No. I never even heard about it. I heard about it after I got going. But it’s amazing how it is sometimes. You have two people with the same idea across the whole continent, you might say.MR. B:I know yours was the first east of the Mississippi. How many other communities followed your example?MR. M:I think they had a tremendous number of inquiries but I don’t think any followed for this good reason. Somebody’s got to do the work. In Dearborn I was willing to do the work without extra pay. You had to get somebody to pay for it. You got to get it on the budget. Right? All this sort of thing. That’s the thing that stops many things from going through. So I did it all on my own.MR. B:Were parents assigned to these meetings to attend?MR. M:Oh yes, it was compulsory. (They) got probation for one year, two years or maybe six months on a conditional probation, you report a certain time. You do so and so at certain times. You obey all laws and you attend Parents School for so many sessions.MR. B:What would happen to parents if they hadn’t?MR. M:Well, it’s a violation of probation.MR. B:How about the Marital Relations Bureau that you set up in February of ’61? Was this an outgrowth?MR. M:It was, it was. You see I was sold at the time upon marriage counselors. I don’t know why the Circuit Court didn’t have more marriage counselors. Now I know why. I went over to Toledo, Ohio, one weekend. I met with Judge Alexander over there and found out about his marriage. His whole setup was a family court. Good idea, I think. At any rate he had marriage counselors, about six of them you know, when they only had one in Detroit. That was just in Toledo. Compared with the whole of Wayne County, it wasn’t very much. Was it? I mean Wayne County (is) worth the deal. I couldn’t understand why the Circuit Court only had one.I thought I’ll start one myself. Didn’t I? Yes. I started one. I had a girl that was a social worker and that’s when I found out. Social workers are great. They’re limited in the number of people they can handle. They have a large production just taking five people and carrying them through a period of time. If you get to those five people, how about all of the others that are not doing anything. So I found out too that marriage counselors are great but once again it’s that personal touch. It’s that sort of a psychiatrist approach. You know there are some people who go to a psychiatrist for fifty dollars a throw every week for about three years. (They) get what you call a therapy or an analysis or something. That may be great but my goodness gracious it’s costly. It’s time consuming and sometimes they don’t come up with anything. Anyway, a marriage counselor bureau in County of Wayne many people have questioned its efficiency. There are private marriage counselors but there’s not as great as it was considered to be any more than psychiatrists now are as good as they used to be. You know that fewer and fewer doctors are going into psychiatry. It’s falling right down the number of people and doctors (that) are becoming psychiatrists. It didn’t have quite the magnetism, the magic, that it had before. There was one psychiatrist I had, though. I had him working for free. He was real, real good. He was a wonderful man. He was practical. He was out on Telegraph Road, Dr. Beebe. He was my idea of a psychiatrist.MR. B:Any relation to Lorraine Beebe?MR. M:No. I don’t think so. He was just great.MR. B:Well, your Home and Family Institute after you left the municipal courtMR. M:It faded. It was cancelled, terminated.MR. B:I was wondering if it became part of the Family Services of Metropolitan Detroit at all.MR. M:No. I was on the board of the Family Service in Detroit but we were not an affiliation at all. They have enough budget problems. After I left, my successors didn’t see the necessity of putting in all that extra work. It was work, you know. When you start the thing you got an idea, you build on it and you’re willing to get the work. Somebody else may feel, well, too much of that work. Can never do it. (I have enough) work to do without that.MR. B:Of all your accomplishments on the court, what stands out as the one thing that you’re most proud of in Dearborn?MR. M:Keep the court independent, calling the cases exactly the way I thought they should be called without fear or favor, without political influence. Nothing. My campaign, McWilliams said, “You’re crazy. We’re together. You’re going out there telling people.” In my court I have no friends, no enemies. I don’t care what you’ve done or what you haven’t done. It much depends what you’re supposed to. Testimony when in court and what the law is. That’s how it is. Every lawyer has an idea if they ever get to be judge, “Some day I like to do things a certain way.” My ten years of law practice, I thought if I ever get to be a judge some day, this is something I want to do. A judge to be in court on time. You run things the way a court should be run and idealistic is what I want.MR. B:And I think you’re still that way, aren’t’ you?MR. M:That’s right. Well, it has been a certain satisfaction but it’s been a great personal satisfaction. I know the judges who say to me that, “No people appreciate what you do.” I said, “No?” When you’re a judge it’s like being a baseball umpire, referee in a fight. Who ever heard of anybody cheering a referee or an umpire? It is a personal satisfaction you get from what you do and those who are aware of what you’re doing. That’s about all. Mainly it’s your own personal satisfaction. That’s all you get on being a judge. You called them or you didn’t call them. Some days you get home you think, “I did pretty good today.” And one day sitting there, “I missed it. I blew one.” It’s sort of agonizing, though. It’s a meter of perfection. You know?MR. B:Well, how far back (does) this idealism that you’ve had? When did you become aware of it or did you? Did you ever become aware of it?MR. M:No. You become aware of course you realize you’re just a fool so many times, you know. Just a fool doing this sort of thing. But you have a certain feeling of full character. What’s the right thing to do? You feel as though there’s a proper way of doing things. I suppose I got it when I became a judge that you go do things the right way and look at what happened.MR. B:I think it goes back further than that. It probably goes back to the time you were on the School Board.MR. M:I suppose it does, yes, because I felt the same way about how things should be done. But Helen was a great influence, you know, too, how things should be done.MR. B:How did the Dearborn branch of the YMCA begin? How did that start out?MR. M:I was never as close to the YMCA as I would like to be. I was in the Boys Club, the YMCA. You just name it – Kiwanis Club, the whole bit.MR. B:Right. I know you were the president of the East Dearborn (Kiwanis).MR. M:And also I was president of the Community Fund, was it? It was something. There was a branch office of the Community Fund. United Foundation that’s what it was then. I never was close to the WMCA as I would like to have been. But they are really helping a lot of the people I would rather help, you know. In fact I raised some eyebrows in the Boys Scouts by saying, “Why can’t you appeal more to the kids in slum districts, the poor districts?” That’s not part of their philosophy too much. They’d like to but it’s just too much work I guess. It looks like those are the kids that should get it, you know, the poor districts, underprivileged, (the) handicapped. I don’t know just exactly what happened. I know they had some meetings about the YMCA and something or other out there. (I was) never as close as I would’ve like to have been. Of all things too, I was on the Young Women’s Christian Association. I was on the Board of Trustees. That was only for the purpose of the Board of Trustees only handling the money, as to how the money should be invested. What’s the certain way of buying property, how should you keep up the property. (A) somewhat different story. Barbara Locke was a tremendous person at the YWCA, tremendous. She was the director of the Young Women’s Christian Association, the Wayne County area. It was located in Dearborn on Mechanic. Was it? Monroe? She was excellent, just excellent. Very nice person, organizer, director.MR. B:I’m not going to go through all the various awards and everything else that you’ve been given. I think the records speaks for itself on that score. But I got down here about the six scholarships that you award or did award in your wife’s memory for perspective English teachers. I know it’s still operating at least I know last year.MR. M:Yes, that’s right.MR. B:Was that in memory of your wife, her being an English teacher?MR. M:Precisely. You think about omit flowers, funeral services, give money to the Cancer Foundation, Heart Foundation, excellent. But Helen had in mind, the last year she was teaching over at Salina School and as a visiting teacher, she said that there was an area about a hundred feet long and about fifty feed wide there between two buildings that was just ghastly with kids passing by, just flat, dull. You know how Ford Motor Company all that ask and everything else over there. It looked like hell. So I thought, well, I’ll fix it up. I did. I got horticultural people in there. We brought in shrubs and flowers. We made pathways. We put in all kinds. It looks pretty good. And I brought flowers every year and now it’s flowering and coming along great. Great stuff. Garden Club of Dearborn is also interested in it.In regard to the other thing about the scholarship idea, the scholarship is nothing new. I thought I’d give scholarships in memory of Helen, keep her memory green to those who liked to become English teachers and for graduated at Fordson High School where she was director of English for so many years and teaching so many years. I’ll do that. So I did. And so every year I’ve done that. In fact I created a Helen Martin Scholarship Foundation and through that I make the arrangements with the Henry Ford Community College. So it’ll be twenty years now coming up. Imagine that.I say I’ve had my battles to keep the court independent and I know the various and nefarious things indulged in as far as the City was concerned. The people didn’t know or condoned because what they got was greater than what they were losing. It’s always easy how time covers up all kinds of sins, you know. And all kinds of people look back what the good things are and the things that are not so good. It astounds you.MR. B:This was during November of ’51 of the various things that you’d done for the courts such as setting up a library for the convenience (of lawyers).MR. M:Small Claims Department. Something else I inaugurated long before it was popular.MR. B:Conciliation Department.MR. M:That’s right.MR. B:What about the charge that Judge Guy made that he was only on call and you never called him.MR. M:I sure didn’t. That man had no more sense of judiciary responsibility or nothing. You call upon him you’d be calling upon someone who would be dispensing justice in a peculiar fashion. He hung in there for months doing nothing, you know, when he’s getting paid as a full time judge. Yes. He was a stooge for Hubbard and he was getting paid for it.MR. B:You fell out with Larry Schaefer.MR. M:I fell out with Jimmy Thomson too when he sold out to Hubbard. Larry Schaefer?MR. B:Yes. Concerning the traffic violations?MR. M:Larry Schaefer was a real nice fellow. I remember the old Schaefer family. And okay. He was, just as I say, taking orders. So he took orders from Maggie Johnson and from Hubbard in regard to my requirement about how traffic tickets should be handled. Well, you can’t blame him for that. He was just a conduit taking orders. Personally I have nothing against Larry Schaefer. In spite of the work for the City Hall, I have nothing against. They just realized the job they had to have and to keep a job, why, they had to follow orders. That’s all. You got hurt just as badly. It is as if they were doing it out of meanness. You realize they are not doing it out of meanness.There’s a tremendous amount of work went into this sort of thing, keeping our court independent, a lot of thinking. Not only that but there’s a matter of making the court outstanding, a matter of all kinds of extra curricular activities. I was president of Wayne County Judges Association, Michigan Judges Association, National Judges Association. Those things took time, too, and expense because Hubbard would allow his department heads to go to conventions and see they got paid for it. I paid my own. Every bit. The whole works. And it’s foolish, I know, but on the other hand the price you pay for independence. What else about the court?MR. B:Well, you were appointed to the Detroit Committee on Alcoholism.MR. M:Yes, I was because I felt often that the law mentioning, it’s not a crime. It’s an illness, you know. It’s a sickness. As many judges do, they go and send them to jail, starting out doing that and they realize that it’s just nonsense. He’d go out and he’d get hit again. You try conditional probation, you got to join Alcoholics Anonymous. You know Alcoholics Anonymous is a voluntary idea but that’s fine. But these guys wouldn’t join Alcoholics Anonymous in a million years. So I noticed it was against their rules. But I said, “You’re compelled to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. Just get an idea what it’s like.” I was interested in some kind of a different approach to the probable abuse of the drunk, disturbing the peace, the big point to be counseled after the abuse. It’s a nice organization but I was more interested in doing something practically. I got in the Health Department, too, didn’t I? Yes. I got in the Health Department.MR. B:Yes. You were on the Dearborn Health Council.MR. M:Yes. I created the Dearborn Health Council.MR. B:How did that come about?MR. M:It came about because Hubbard was playing hell with the Health Department. What he was doing he was having some sloppy, sloppy work going on there. How did it affect the court? It affected the court in some way. (It) tried to do everything the City did to affect the court it seemed. And I thought, well, I’ll start up a Dearborn Health Advisory Council. Give them something or other. What was it called? I also attached savings into the government Citizens Traffic Safety Council, didn’t I? Yes. I chartered that too. (I had) more organizations going, didn’t I? God almighty. Think about it. This Health Council is very good, very, very good. It worked out. It was with the idea in mind that keeping a health department was being just run like a ward healer would run it. That was the idea. Not that we succeeded very well but at least we tried. I think for a long time there Hubbard didn’t have a City health officer. He had some kind of a substitute in some way. He was saving on the budget or what it was. It was something that was directed along that line, doing something to have a City get the facilities for the City Charter required, see. Many times Hubbard would not appoint somebody to a job that the City Charter required. Having an idea in mind, “Okay, if you start a case in Circuit Court, requiring me to do it, I’ll do it today or tomorrow or by law.” But you got to bring the case in of taking the money, taking the time, taking attention, taking the court, all that sort of thing. You know what I mean? Cutting behind your back. That’s the sort of stuff. So you recognize the technique. You realize that society is not geared to handle techniques like that. Very seldom you see that an individual like that has such rapacity, you know? Such a mean cleverness.MR. B:You mentioned the State Bar Association’s Committee.MR. M:Yes. I was chairman of that thing too.MR. B:(The) first of its kind.MR. M:It was and was also a matter where through that committee I was able to get leverage with the State Bar to sponsor some of the bills that we in the municipal courts in the State of Michigan were interested in being for the betterment of the courts, you see. It helped out a great deal when we were up to Lansing. Think about that. (I) went to Lansing more times to help promote legislation and talk with representatives and senators and so forth. I remember there was a retired Circuit Court judge from Allegan. What was his name? We had five propositions up there. He turned one down. “Judge, do you play baseball?” I said, “Yes, why?” “You’re not doing bad, four out of five is a pretty good average.” That was a nice way of turning me off when you turn me on? You think (that is) just about sufficient?MR. B:I think it’s about sufficient, sir. Thank you very much for allowing me to (come to your office).MR. M:Well, I’m very delighted. As I say I’m dedicated to the courts.MR. B:That’s apparent.MR. M:And I knew that I would like to give much more time but I had to take this morning off, make other arrangements. ................
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