Full Version: A Slimline Anthology Format



Full Version: A Slimline Anthology Format

From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1]
 25 Apr 9:15
To: ALL

I can't remember if I posted this before, so what the fuck:

I'm unlikely to ever get the time to do this, so I throw it out there for people to consider.

Slimline books are what we apparently now call the FELL Format.

I structure this for financial ease -- Image books, as at other indie publishers, are back-end only, paying royalties instead of page rates or other advance fees.

Anthologies are generally thought of as anathema in US Direct Market publishing, not least because they're thought to be unsatisfying to readers. So consider this: one writer, four artists, working in the following structure:

1
5
1
5
1
5
1

+ 1 cover.

That's three five-page stories. Four one-page pieces. And one cover, provided by the same artist doing the four one-page pieces. Leaves the inside back cover and one interior page over for playing with.

Four artists and one writer equals five contributors. Therefore, break the back end into clean fifths: everyone gets 20%.

Anyway. Just a thought.

(I really, really want to do this one day. But no time. That said, I'm not especially worried about getting gazumped, it's not like people are flooding to do FELL-format books as it is)

-- W

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From: Ted (TED_BRANDT) [#2]
 25 Apr 9:21
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 10:39

This may be a premature/daft question (if so, please ignore my ramblings), but do you have any thoughts as to the sorts of miniature stories you'd be interested in producing for an anthology like this, or have you just been thinking about structure?

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From: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#3]
 25 Apr 9:27
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 10:39

The one page pieces are intriguing.

If they are to be one page stories (16 panels each?), then you need the right kind of cartoonist to draw something that tight... probably someone with a deceptively simple style.

If they are to be single page illustrations (plus cover) then again, you would do best to have a special kind of illustrator... the kind where people will buy it just to have the illustrations.

Either way, it seems to me that selecting that artist would be a real key to success.

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From: Jason Rodriguez (JASON_RODRIGUEZ) [#4]
 25 Apr 9:38
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 10:39

It's an interesting concept - it seems a lot of anthologies are going the opposite direction and beefing up to 40+ pages or bookshelf friendly.

I think the idea can certainly make it an impulse buy - 1.99 for seven stories from 5 creators sounds too good not to try. And there's always the possibility of spinning a story off into its own Slimline book if it has the legs.

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From: William Couper (WILLIAM_COUPER) [#5]
 25 Apr 9:39
To: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#3] 25 Apr 10:48

It would be getting the four artists who could switch from the single page stories to the five page ones.

And whether anyone was willing to put it together in the first place. But I suppose there has to be that 'build it and they will come' mentality about it.


Will

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From: Richard Pace (RPACE) [#6]
 25 Apr 10:02
To: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#3] 25 Apr 10:48

Interesting take.

My first thought that the cover and one-page guy would be doing interstitial bits connecting the other five page increments, so the panel count per page would probably remain similar to the rest of the book.

The key isn't in the artists (beyond what artists are usually needed for), but in the writer's ability to find a story to tell in that structure and tell it well.

~Richard

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From: Josh Hechinger (JOSHHECHINGER) [#7]
 25 Apr 11:57
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 11:58

Hm. You could run a comic strip on the one page section. An original strip by your fourth artist, or maybe bring in a webcomic creator and let them run their strip in the gaps, which might bring in an additional audience.

The one page sections could easily work like the paintings in the old Night Gallery show too...

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From: Bill Cunningham (CINEXPLOITS) [#8]
 25 Apr 12:10
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) 25 Apr 12:23

Now just to throw a rusty wrench into the works, what if several of the five-pagers were chapters of a much longer story?

Five pages a month of a certain story told over umpteen months.

--------------------------------------

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From: Eric Palicki (ERICPALICKI) [#9]
 25 Apr 12:15
To: Josh Hechinger (JOSHHECHINGER) [#7] 25 Apr 12:16

My first thought, when Warren posted the proposed format, was that the 1-pagers would be self-contained stories...I see now that they could be used as a framing or introduction sequence for the otherwise disparate 5-pagers. Like the bar scenes in the SANDMAN World's End stories. Or like what Harlan Ellison did in the Dream Corridor comics (or like the Crypt Keeper, I suppose), showing up as himself to introduce the stories.

This could replace the backmatter, with the writer popping in between entries to give the reader notes sequentially, rather than as prose.

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From: Eric Palicki (ERICPALICKI) [#10]
 25 Apr 12:17
To: Bill Cunningham (CINEXPLOITS) [#8] 25 Apr 13:27

Or at the very least, sef-contained pieces featuring recurring characters. I'm sure there are people out there who buy FELL for the title character as much as they do for the writer and/or artist.

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From: Skipper Pickle (SPICKLE) [#11]
 25 Apr 12:20
To: Josh Hechinger (JOSHHECHINGER) [#7] 25 Apr 12:23

You could run a comic strip on the one page section. An original strip by your fourth artist, or maybe bring in a webcomic creator and let them run their strip in the gaps, which might bring in an additional audience.

Interesting. i'm flashing on The Fate of the Artist now. 

Hey, maybe this would be a good way to get more Astronauts in Trouble. *ahem*

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From: Josh Hechinger (JOSHHECHINGER) [#12]
 25 Apr 12:23
To: Eric Palicki (ERICPALICKI) [#9] 25 Apr 12:36

Yeah, I was just thinking along the lines of the Cryptkeeper...some sort of narrator introducing the stories.

I really like the idea of the writer chatting up the reader in one-page comics between the stories though.

Another thought, depending on what kind of stories of course, is throwing little gags about the five pagers in-between the stories. Like the omake gag pages in a manga volume.

EDIT: Or steal a page from Eiichiro Oda, and do a piss-taking letters column/FAQ in the gaps, like his SBS pages in ONE PIECE.

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#13]
 25 Apr 12:23
To: Bill Cunningham (CINEXPLOITS) [#8] 25 Apr 13:27

Now just to throw a rusty wrench into the works, what if several of the five-pagers were chapters of a much longer story?

Well, obviously.


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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#14]
 25 Apr 12:27
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#13] 25 Apr 12:27

Re: the one-pagers -- no-one remembers Brendan McCarthy's ARTOONS?


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From: Jonathan Hickman (JHICKMAN) [#15]
 25 Apr 12:30
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 12:35

To each his own, but I would the one pagers as complex pictographs or collage that were just as much narrative as symbol.

It would be much more dense than the other pages, but not as overwhelming as if it were page after page of it.

But that's me.

/

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#16]
 25 Apr 12:36
To: Ted (TED_BRANDT) [#2] 25 Apr 14:02

I know exactly what I'd do.


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From: Josh Hechinger (JOSHHECHINGER) [#17]
 25 Apr 12:40
To: Skipper Pickle (SPICKLE) [#11] 25 Apr 12:43

Sure, why not? The idea of running a funnies page in the book, so to speak, could be to weave someone/something people want more of through three stories they don't know they like yet.

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From: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#18]
 25 Apr 12:51
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 12:53

you mean as an ongoing thing?

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#19]
 25 Apr 12:54
To: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#18] 25 Apr 12:56

Sure.


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From: Caffeine-Powered Enforcer Ariana (SILVERSMOKE) [#20]
 25 Apr 12:58
To: ALL

I tend not to comment on these idea threads, as I don't write scripts for a living; but, if I may comment on the one-page:

Commercial Break. 
Propaganda. 
Station Identification. 
Want to Know More? 
Footnotes. 
You may also enjoy...
Definition of Terms. 
Meanwhile...
Commentary.
History.
Next time...
Prologue.
Epilogue.
Poetry?
Flash.
Aside.
Related Content.
Liner Notes.
Weather and Traffic at the top of the hour.
Coming Soon.
And now for something completely different.
Roll Credits.

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From: Jonathan Hickman (JHICKMAN) [#21]
 25 Apr 13:02
To: Caffeine-Powered Enforcer Ariana (SILVERSMOKE) [#20] 25 Apr 13:03

LOL. I'm doing six of those in a Marvel thing I'm working on right now.

/

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From: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#22]
 25 Apr 13:03
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#19] 25 Apr 13:09

hmm... it would make for a much more interesting/complicated hell on administration, in terms of deadlines and the like. 1 of your artists flake (much less all five, as is a good possibility these days) and you end up retracing a lot of steps to make the whole thing cohesive.

just thinking out loud here. it would be hard to do fast, for sure. hard anyway, i guess, but not insurmountable with a bigger window before publication.

(not trying to make a point for or against the thing, just thinking out loud)

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#23]
 25 Apr 13:15
To: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#22] 25 Apr 13:17

All true, of course. That said, five pages a month is an easier target per artist.

It all comes back to the STRANGE DAYS model (and, maybe, the earlier ECHO DES SAVANES gang) -- comic as band.


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From: pj holden (PAULJHOLDEN) [#24]
 25 Apr 13:30
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 13:35

I'd love to be involved in something like that - coming from a 2000AD background - short stories are my natural home.

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From: Jason A. Quest (JAQ) [#25]
 25 Apr 13:41
To: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#22] 25 Apr 13:44

Furthermore, if one artist flakes, you only need to squeeze five pages out of another artist (one who owes you a favor) to make up for it. At least in theory, you could recover from a totally blown "I haven't started yet" deadline in a week or two.

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From: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#26]
 25 Apr 13:53
To: Jason A. Quest (JAQ) [#25] 25 Apr 14:16

well, it's potentially more involved than that, depending on how elaborately you structure each story to the artist... and further how long that respective story is intended to be long term, and whether or not it interacts with the others, and so on...

for my own part, i wouldn't see the point in doing just random unrelated shorts, you know? if we're looking at it in band/album terms, you don't want to just throw in any old song to fill that void.

again, i'm not saying it's insurmountable, but anthologies bring their own set of logistical headaches to the table. (trust me, i'm ripping my hair out over one RIGHT NOW)

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From: Amy Kim Ganter (GANTER) [#27]
 25 Apr 13:56
To: ALL

I can attest to the slimline anthology format, having participated in one of the Goosebumps Graphix books. They contain three stories per volume, each story running around 40 pages. From an artist's perspective it's awesome. 40 pages is the perfect amount to tell a full short story, it's completely manageable. I'm not sure how readers have reacted to the books, although I'm sure they're doing well. I think RL Stine's name has more to do with it than the format, though.

edit: whoops.. I didn't read the first post carefully enough. That's an interesting format, and even easier than doing 40 pages! I wonder if it would be a viable long term model, though. It would definitely be a project more for artists than for readers, I think.

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From: Maxim Douglas aka Salgood Sam (MAX) [#28]
 25 Apr 14:11
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#23] 25 Apr 14:15

It would be an easy target, and I think someone with a good working history with a number of artists would be able to stock a book like that with known quantities for a lot of the work making the flake out factor pretty manageable, and the short bits lets you try out new talent relatively painlessly. Nice.

If one got the 5 pagers to be done mostly by a regular stable of trusted talent it would make for a nice not to demanding monthly gig.

One consideration from my own experience on short stuff, is that you have to watch out for taking the ease of it for granted?

Anyone doing this kind of book would be probably mistaken if they took a laid back approach to deadlines, with something like a short comic or illo its just so easy not to think about it till the last minute for artists who have a few things on the go. Mostly that’s the artists professional lookout but an editor or writer would want to keep it in mind when planning this sort of thing and assigning work. Make good use of padded delaines, give them only enough time to do it in even if it means getting the story in weeks or months in advance, far better that then late after all. You could even get some to draw a 30 page or more story [6 5pg chapters] in one go and have it all done way in advance.

cool format, i like.

but I’ve always loved anthologies.

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From: Dave Farmer (DAVE_FARMER) [#29]
 25 Apr 14:35
To: ALL

Just to throw my two cents in, one approach might be to give all five writer/artists an end goal in mind for each issues plot; and have each of them cover one of five character's viewpoints as they all arrive there. Example: on the way to the Emerald City in OZ, you see one guy cover Dorothy's perspective, while someone else covers the Tin Man reacting to her. I guess in that example, the fifth person would have to be Toto.

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From: Michael L. Peters (MLPETERS) [#30]
 25 Apr 15:40
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 15:56

Sounds interesting, fun, not too much of a time commitment and potentially profitable. 

Any particular artists in mind (hint: I'd love to tackle an Ellis script, someday...)?



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From: Michael L. Peters (MLPETERS) [#31]
 25 Apr 15:51
To: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#3] 25 Apr 16:56

"The one page pieces are intriguing.

If they are to be one page stories (16 panels each?), then you need the right kind of cartoonist to draw something that tight... probably someone with a deceptively simple style."

Not necessarily -- I did a one-pager for Heavy Metal (it's awaiting an opening in the schedule, so I can't show it publicly, yet) with all of 3 panels, drawn and painted in my usual style. I'll e-mail a secret (shhh...) link to anyone here that's interested.

Keeping a story down to one page can be less about cramming a full story onto a page, than limiting the writing to one simple, clever notion -- something more akin to a daily comic-strip drawn to comics page format.




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From: Chris Arrant (CHRISARRANT) [#32]
 25 Apr 16:04
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 25 Apr 17:02

I did a minicomic version of this for SDCC last year -- 2 5pp stories, 2 6pp stories, written by me with four artists. But it was strictly as a one-off "show reel" type of thing and not intended to begin an ongoing.

I've talked with Becky Cloonan and some others about a slimline anthology, and I think it's possible but it would need to be weighted with a considerable "name" creator that can pull in units, and one talented enough to work in 5pp increments. Whether they're ongoings or one-off, that FUTURE SHOCK kind of storytelling isn't something everyone possesses.

But having an artist only responsible for 4 pp a month would be an interesting thing, and would open up the potential to get far ahead and do possible double-shipping months or have one of the ongoing stories take up 2 stories spot in one issue for a big scene.

I did this format in a minicomic for SDCC last year; 1-writer-4-artists-5pp stories... more as a "show reel" than a launching pad for an ongoing series, but I enjoyed it.

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From: David McIntyre (ROGUEDEATHANGEL) [#33]
 25 Apr 18:11
To: ALL

Personally I'd prefer if a book like this didn't follow a "the one-pagers are lead-ins for the five pagers" or "the one-pagers are all one big story" kind of formula. It'd be good every now and again, but not as the general formula for the book, I think it would be more interesting if you didnt know the structure of the book before reading it, other than the 1-5-1-5 etc page break-up.

For £1.55 this would be an absolute bargain. A book like this should be put at the checkouts at every Borders in the country.

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From: Mark D. Ashworth (TH_MOLE) [#34]
 25 Apr 19:07
To: Jason Rodriguez (JASON_RODRIGUEZ) [#4] 26 Apr 9:03

quote:

It's an interesting concept - it seems a lot of anthologies are going the opposite direction and beefing up to 40+ pages or bookshelf friendly.

A quick and dirty way to accomodate that:

2
10
2
10
2
10
2

Plus front and back covers.

The other route that seems obvious would probably force the creator to spend more time editing than writing:

1f
5
1f
5
1f
5
1f
5
1b
5
1b
5
1b
5
1b

With one of two "single page" artists getting the front cover, and the other the back.

The math gets screwy that way, though, with 11 contributors to split the pot.

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From: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#35]
 25 Apr 19:26
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#23] 26 Apr 4:09

Slimlines as singles? M Fraction is calling the Casanova collection an album yeah? K Gillen has one page B-sides...

Pie in the sky idea: This format could work with a 'Big Issue' style distribution method. Cheap issue price, variety of content, slab of culture. The sort of stuff you pick up to read on public transport.

Don't know how or if you'd work in the charity angle (seeing how the profits are all back end), but it might go some way to finding a different audience.

(Actually, isn't that how a lot of the underground comix were distributed? Out of prams etc. on street corners?)

-n/e

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From: FoolKing (JOEL_R_CRABTREE) [#36]
 25 Apr 19:49
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 26 Apr 4:09

Strictly from a (discerning?) reader's standpoint: This idea is so good it's sexual. My mind's abuzz with the possibilities. To keep it short and sweet, one thing I'd be interterested in seeing (unless the intial team overwhelmed me into blind devotion) is seeing a rotating artist roster following certain arcs. A perfect way to gauge dynamics and the set the stage for "outside" collaborations.

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From: Richard Pace (RPACE) [#37]
 25 Apr 19:57
To: ALL

I think there's a lot of talk around the idea on different formats and page counts that isn't recognising the status of Warren's structure. It might be an idea to talk through the current model presented before speculating on how else it can work when it hasn't worked yet, it's still speculative.

I think we need some people pushing the initial format forward to see how it rolls before we tinker under the hood. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One writer, four artists, one book lends itself to one story told from different places. The simplest example I can think of off the top of my head is a zombie comic. Perhaps mini-series to test the experiment, or as an ongoing to free the writer to explore the myriad story possibilities, yadda, yadda, yadda. Whatever the concept, this is the writer's band, the artists are just stepping in to jam.

Cover -- drawn by Interstitial artist

P1 -- Interstitial segment -- following zombie mob (with several recognizable Zs) as they approach apartment building and some go in.
P2-6 -- Story 1 - mother and kids trapped in apartment building.
P7 -- Interstitial segment -- zombie mob wanders to police station and join assault.
P8-12 -- Story 2 -- cops and misc civilians in Assault on Precinct 13 With Zombies
P13 -- Interstitial segment -- some from the zombie mob descend into the subway
P14-18 -- Story 3 -- Commuters vs. Snakes Zombies on a Train! 
P19 -- Interstitial segment -- new zombie mob forms from dead commuters, it goes deeper into the subway tunnels (leads into issue 2 where Interstitial artists tackles the 5-page story of the homeless living in the tunnels dealing with the zombies and one of the other three artists tackles cover and interstitial bits).

Artists can rotate in and out of the cycle as the series progresses, commiting to three chapters and one interstitial/cover three month tour, though it would be better to aim for 12 issues and a nice thick 240 page collection.

That's how I see it working with Warren's structure. It's simple and elegant and can work, but there needs to be a few solid things in place to get it working.

You need a bankable headliner, and it's gonna have to be the writer and he's going to have to have had a goodly amount of comics experience under his or her belt to make this work if they plan to write to the strengths of varied artists. Another reason for the writer to be the headliner is that the writer will be staying, he/she is the constant running through all the stories and, if this is to work, you need readers, not art appreciators. Everyone involved in the project has to recognise it's the writer's show, too. This would be a bitch to write and orchestrate, so everyone else would have to show the required amount of deference and respect and not fuck up.

You also need artists who know that a 5 page story will probably take as long as any 8 pages they do on a longer project, and even more time for the cover/interstitial gig. These shorter, denser chapters will have to do double-time in storytelling and action, something most artists aren't required to do much anymore. These artists are going to have to be absolutely addicted to the subject matter for this to work.

Most of the writers I can think of who could pull this off are exclusive to the large pubs or possibly quite removed from looking at this as worth the effort. 

~Richard

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From: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#38]
 25 Apr 22:43
To: Richard Pace (RPACE) [#37] 26 Apr 4:43

Nicely thought through. i think my only problem with the interstitial segments is that they might tend to become not much more then little bits of geographical business. I'd want something more than an announcement that, "Now we are here."

As a reader, I'd prefer to see four brilliant one page stories. Brilliant. There's the rub.

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From: Jason A. Quest (JAQ) [#39]
 26 Apr 4:06
To: Marvin Mann (MARVINMANN) [#38] 26 Apr 6:20

I know that my world would be brighter with more one-page stories. And more five-page stories. Why do people gravitate so quickly back to turning a format like this into yet another serial?

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#40]
 26 Apr 4:11
To: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#35] 26 Apr 5:03

(Actually, isn't that how a lot of the underground comix were distributed? Out of prams etc. on street corners?)

The headshops, too. Not totally dissimilar from the current state of the direct market.


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From: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#41]
 26 Apr 5:09
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#40] 26 Apr 6:32

quote: Warren Ellis

The headshops, too. Not totally dissimilar from the current state of the direct market.

Which might argue against this technique widening the audience.

Of course the other distribution possibility that would work with this format is web, although that takes the idea in a completely different direction.

(In my head I have the idea from W Gibson's ALL TOMORROW'S PARTIES, where you build your own magazine and it gets printed out, crossed with some sort of music download site. But again, completely different kettle of fish.)

-n/e

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From: Joe Williams (JOE_WILLY) [#42]
 26 Apr 5:24
To: Jason A. Quest (JAQ) [#39] 26 Apr 6:03

If Harvey Pekar wasn't already with Vertigo I'd like to see him try the Slimline anthology format with American Splendor.

The thing I miss most in the current comics marketplace are the single-creator anthologies that most indy comics people were doing in the early 90s like Eightball which contained both short (sometimes even half pagers or less) and longer form comics (sometimes serialized stories) along with little bits of ephemera like letters, comic reviews, etc.

I like the Slimline anthology idea but see no reason why anything has to be linked for the simple fact that the comics world needs something to counteract the tendency to create ever-larger and complex graphic novels, manga series and interlinked continuity-based spandex soap operas across several monthly titles. Some of us like short comics and want to read more! Why not just a really cheap anthology without all the headaches some people are imposing on the format? Why not just a chance to let artists whack out 5 pages and move on to other projects? I think a lot of artists wouldn't mind doing something so short for back end money and it could also offer some exposure to artists who still have day jobs and other commitments and can't afford to take on a full book by themselves.

The biggest argument against anthologies seems to be the feeling of being cheated if 1 or more stories aren't a favorite of the purchaser but at $1.99 I'm not sure those complaints would be as loud.

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From: Alex Wilson (ALEX) [#43]
 26 Apr 5:48
To: ALL

Working on something like this between other projects.

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From: Graeme McMillan (GRAEME) [#44]
 26 Apr 6:49
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#14] 26 Apr 7:07

I didn't think of Artoons (which was wonderful), but Milligan and McCarthy's Sooner or Later, from mid-80s 2000AD. Weren't they mostly 1-page episodes, or am I completely misremembering?

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From: Garrett_Farrelly (GARRETTFARRELLY) [#45]
 26 Apr 7:01
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#40] 26 Apr 7:07

My first thought seeing the 1 page idea was Jim Mahfood. That guy does more in 1 page than some artist/writers do in a whole fucking book. Or that sick monster Templesmith with his leprechaun fetish, he can give you comedy/horror and an accurate depiction of Irish mating rituals all in 5 panels.

And what about really finely detailed artists doing 1 page pieces. I'm thinking Frank Quietly, Bryan Talbot, fuck...why not Amano? They do covers, why not something inside? You hear so many writers saying "God, I'd love to work with one of them". Here's the chance to do so in a very compact way.

The artists don't have to commit to the grind of a monthly, just a little piece. Or maybe a whole bunch of little pieces adding up to something.

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From: chris_mitten [#46]
 26 Apr 7:17
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 26 Apr 7:18

This is probably something worth taking a whack at (but then, I’m kind of a sucker for anthologies, so maybe that’s shading my thinking a bit). But still, it’s a fun idea. And, like it’s been said, the smaller snippets make for easier scheduling, at least from an artist’s standpoint.

You could get some truly interesting stuff swirling around out there.

-chris.

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From: Rob (ROBWILLIAMS) [#47]
 26 Apr 7:39
To: Garrett_Farrelly (GARRETTFARRELLY) [#45] 28 Apr 20:35

Henry Flint did some one page stories for 2000AD a while back - Alien Invasions. They were typically bonkers and brilliant in equal measure, which is Henry all over. He'd be great at this type of thing.

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From: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#48]
 26 Apr 9:10
To: ALL

I've been thinking about this for a whie- (I think "comic magazine" is a better way to describe it though, over anthology.) 
I really love working in the OGN format, but I have a monthly book too and it's so much more rewarding to put something out every month.

My OGN is published by Tokyopop, and I always thought their Takuhai (I think it was called?) magazine was a great idea, they collected a chapter from each of their OEL books and would distribute it for free. I think this would work great also if they could distribute it and charge a minimal amount for it, especially if you print it on super cheap paper and get soe advertisement money the cost could be kept pretty low.

It takes most OEL books about a year to reach a sequel, and I can attest to how tiring and frustrating it can be to work and work and not feel like there's any progress. I'll be drawing East Coast Rising for another two years!! I think a comic magazine would benefit not just the readers, but more the creaters. I think there's a creator need for this sort of thing, and the material is already there in most cases. Tokyopop is one company who could pull this off, another would be Oni Press, I think Yen Press is doing something like this too? I'm not sure?

But yeah I'd love to be part of something like this. I think the super short format is good because not many creators I know can commit to something new, everyone is so busy! It's a busy time! If it catches on I think it could grow into something bigger, until creators have enough time to work full time on it?

I'm just rambling!! I love thinking about this stuff. Mmm. Format.

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From: ivan brandon (IVAN) [#49]
 26 Apr 9:15
To: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#48] 26 Apr 12:03

it's a variation on the idea, but you and vasilis could trade duties back and forth on something like this.

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From: Dean Haspiel (DINO) [#50]
 26 Apr 9:31
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 27 Apr 2:35

Interesting idea. Good way to get cool artists to pony 5pp per month towards a bigger tapestry of a comic. Were I to edit/co-produce it, I'd have one writer, possibly an artist/writer, provide the plot breakdown and dialogue, possibly, with rough thumbnail layouts [left up for interpretation -- not unlike what Keith Giffen did for 52]. The over-arching story would have seperate storylines that "met" via story thesis, and possibly converge at the end of the tale. Kinda like if Robert Altman had written/directed a comic book version of one of his ensemble movies. Hell, a character could die or his/her storyline end, make some kinda impact on the tapestry [ripple effect?], and a new artist w/a new character could enter the fray. Narrative Corpse with a plot. I'd call the book, P.O.V.

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From: Joey Stone (SHOEFACE) [#51]
 27 Apr 5:11
To: ALL

I don't think that it would need to have an ongoing narrative throughout the whole series (each 5 page story being the first chapter in a longer arc, for example). I think the better approach would be having a constant theme appearing. The best example I could think of - and also something I would fucking love to see - is a Snowtown anthology.

Each issue would collect a number of short stories about the various fucked up things going on in Snowtown - one five pager focusing on the Nixon Nun, one about the receptionist at the police station, etc. Not only would this be a great way to get other artists interpretation of Snowtown (not that there is anything wrong with Templesmith, whom I love dearly in a very sexy way), but it would also help expand upon the world in which Richard Fell exists, fleshing it out more.

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From: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#52]
 27 Apr 5:22
To: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#48] 27 Apr 9:14

The way you put it sounds very similar to what (I believe) is the Japanese format, with title's like Shonen Jump running chapters of things like Naruto each month, and then the collection coming out later.

(Also, interestingly, if you go back and have a look at the early Detective Comics and the like, it's pretty similar to that. In Detective #27, Batman is I think about an 8 page story, with about five other stories in there [including a weird one page celebrity thing with a damn creepy drawing of Fred Astaire].)

I haven't done my research on this, so I may be a little off the mark with how the Japanese magazines work, but it would be interesting to see a western publisher try this sort of thing out.

-n/e

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From: Elliot Mears (ELLIOTMEARS) [#53]
 27 Apr 5:57
To: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#52] 27 Apr 17:30

I have a copy of WEEKLY SHONEN JUMP right beside me, and you're not wrong. The NARUTO episode is about fifteen/sixteen pages long, one of some 22 different series currently running in the magazine. The longest of them is about 30 pages, and it retails for 230 yen (about a quid in God's Money, and maybe two of those quaint American dollars). There's also a few strip cartoons in there, and one or two gag illustrations, such as Napoleon I riding a panda into battle. It's printed on thick, low-grade pulp paper in many different colours, which I think looks kind of cool.

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From: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#55]
 27 Apr 9:23
To: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#52] 27 Apr 17:30

The way you put it sounds very similar to what (I believe) is the Japanese format, with title's like Shonen Jump (snip) 

Yeah it's funny how the whole OEL market is based on how the Japanese supposidly do it, but it's actually based on how we've been translating them. Nobody was thinking that in Japan they have monthly or weekly distribution (and assistants!) to help with the massive output. 

I think comic magazines/anthologies/collections whatever you call them would greatly relieve a lot of stress from all the kids (and adults!) jumping into the OEL/OGN format. From what I've seen online there has been a lot of talk about it from creators. 

I actually think this slimline anthology would be a great diving board into something like that as well. Get the direct market used to a monthly anthology, get people thinking in that direction and it might move things foreward!

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From: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#56]
 27 Apr 10:01
To: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#55] 27 Apr 15:33

I think comic magazines/anthologies/collections whatever you call them would greatly relieve a lot of stress from all the kids (and adults!) jumping into the OEL/OGN format. From what I've seen online there has been a lot of talk about it from creators. 

Another bunch just last night, in fact.


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From: Morgan Jeske (GUS) [#57]
 27 Apr 17:08
To: ALL

It seems like this could be a really cool project to utilize a rotating group of writers/artists. A project wherein they can tell those smaller stand alone stories/concepts they have floating around on a monthly basis.

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From: Richard Pace (RPACE) [#59]
 27 Apr 17:25
To: ALL

Had another thought, I think it's a bad one but I'm gonna share for the hell of it: one artist, four writers.

At that point the headliner becomes the artist (duh), but the play of it becomes how much of a taffy pull can the other writers have with the artist's style and abilities within varied genres.

Breaking down the payment into fifths is a bit of a no-go, but simple maths of 10%x4 and 60% might make it work. The one-pagers become less important as interstitial elements, but can still be nice exercises. Hell, you could still do the one-genre thing -- four writers do their zombie riff all connected by one storyteller.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The more I think of Warren's initial premise, the more I like it. It's probably the only sort of regular comics workload I could consistently handle in addition to teaching September through April.


~Richard

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From: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#60]
 27 Apr 17:39
To: becky cloonan (BECKYC) [#55] 27 Apr 18:34

quote: Becky Cloonan

Yeah it's funny how the whole OEL market is based on how the Japanese supposidly do it, but it's actually based on how we've been translating them. Nobody was thinking that in Japan they have monthly or weekly distribution (and assistants!) to help with the massive output.

Yeah, it's funny how people will advocate other modes of production but completely forget vital parts of them. With assistants for example, some of the teams have people who just draw vehicles, or backgrounds.

(Another funny comparison is that if you go back and look again at early western stuff, the same sorts of things happened there. In the introduction to a collection of Superman newspaper strips I have, they talk about Paul Cassidy who was hired by Siegel and Shuster to ghost a couple of strips they were putting out. Shuster himself just inked in the faces. [From memory, Bob Kane and Will Eisner had similar set ups at times, possibly others too].)

Back on topic, I can definitely see this sort of thing working, and with the possibility of different magazines aimed at different audiences (my little sister would love a monthly anthology of OEL stuff, and her tastes run quite differently to mine).

-n/e

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From: Rantz Hoseley (RANTZ) [#61]
 27 Apr 17:51
To: Nick Ellis (NICKELLIS) [#60] unread

I've been reading a fuckload of books on the beginnings/rise and fall of the silver age lately, and yeah... Goodman/Timely/Atlas/Marvel did the short 'test bed' bit almost as SOP. Journey into Mystery, Amazing Fantasy... all had that 2-3 running serial format, usually with page lengths about 8-10 pages. In those cases it was to hedge bets against returnable sales, but also so they could have multiple teams churning out stuff.

Everything comes around...

and yeah, I like the idea a LOT. It kinda deals with one of the major outstanding puzzle pieces of a anthlogy idea Derek and I were talking about at SDCC this last year. Maybe when the decks get cleared a bit...

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From: Nick Bryan (NICKMB) [#62]
 28 Apr 2:15
To: ALL

Fleetway did this five-page-story anthology thing with Sonic The Comic, a kiddies Sonic-The-Hedgehog-based comic back in the day. Thinking back, it was basically a young-skewing version of 2000AD where all the stories were based on Sega videogames. But I used to really love it as a kid, it was probably my gateway drug to comics as a whole.

The Sonic-stuff with talking animals took over the whole comic in the end, you just ended up with four stories featuring different characters from the same world. But in the beginning you had a Sonic story, then a Shinobi story about ninjas, a Streets of Rage story about street gang fighting (written by a very early Mark Millar, actually) and Ecco The Dolphin, which I think may have been beyond me as a child. Lovely art, but I never had a clue what was going on.

It also slowly imploded and died a death, actually... It was sad to see. First they removed one of the original stories and only featured three new stories and one reprint per issue. It degenerated further and a year or so late, it was one new story and three reprints. And I think it kept going as a 100% reprints thing for a year or so more after they stopped producing anything new. Except for the covers.

Anyway, that post ended up being a bit of a nostalgia trawl, but my point (I think) was that I have very fond memories of the kind of thing Warren's talking about. The key difference was that there wasn't one unified writer, just four teams.

Also, the Sonic stories by Nigel Kitching and Richard Elson are under-rated classics, just for the record.

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From: Dan Maharry (HMOBIUS) [#63]
 28 Apr 5:36
To: ALL

Funny how this idea doesn't a million miles away from the way some cartoon shows are structured. e.g. Animaniacs, a personal fave. Three or four minute cartoons as the main attractions with sixty seconds of randomness thrown in for effect.

I wonder how many more types of media can be structured in this way?

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From: Yann Krehl (Y_KREHL) [#64]
 28 Apr 7:16
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 28 Apr 7:22

I like the idea and would pay money for something like that. (Nobody here disliking it?)

The 1-5-1-5-1-5-1 seems a little bit rigid - but you could use 0-5-1-5-1-5-0 as a basis and add the remaining two pages wherever you feel like (just not to the 5 page segments) to make the thing a bit more unpredictable.

If something like this would be published, I would probably buy it – depending on the concept and the creators involved, of course. And the individual pieces wouldn’t necessarily have to be connected, as far as I’m concerned. (Yes, I like anthologies.)
The more well-known the writer (and the artists), the looser the connection could probably be. (And there are far more writers out there who could pull this of than there are writers who could sell it with their name alone.)

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From: Yann Krehl (Y_KREHL) [#65]
 28 Apr 7:20
To: ALL

Just remembered another comic using a similar format:



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From: Michael L. Peters (MLPETERS) [#66]
 28 Apr 16:27
To: Richard Pace (RPACE) [#59] 28 Apr 16:32

I think the one writer, five artists model was proposed because a writer can often write much faster than artists can draw.

I don't see why anyone's making light of one-pagers. Jeff Jones did many one-pagers in National Lampoon (Idyll) and Heavy Metal (I'mage) and even won awards for it. Granted, as stories they didn't make much sense, but I don't think that was purely due to format. 

I've done one one-pager for Heavy Metal -- it worked fine, much like a Sunday newspaper strip.



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From: Juan Navarro (THISISJUAN) [#67]
 28 Apr 19:48
To: ALL

I think I would love to tackle a project with this type of structure, but I think it all comes sdown to the writer and the script they put together for it. If it has good bones, the whole thing'll look great.

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From: Chris Gumprich (GUMPRICH) [#68]
 30 Apr 5:53
To: Yann Krehl (Y_KREHL) [#65] 30 Apr 6:01

Ah, WASTELAND... criminally underappreciated series. I miss Del Close.

If the proposed anthology was of a similar quality, I would buy it. As everyone knows, it's a lot easier to risk $1.99 on a new book than $4.95 (or more).

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From: Blake Peterson (BLAKEPETERSON) [#69]
 8 Jul 14:52
To: Warren Ellis (WARRENELLIS) [#1] 8 Jul 14:56

This is actually the idea that I read on your blog that got me to delurk on The Engine. It seems like a realy exciting idea.

For comic artists or writers just starting out it would give them the lattitude to start by telling more compact stories before moving on to something larger. If I wanted to try out the format as a writer, probably with an online distribution model, should I post in the "Writer's Looking for Artists section?" I noticed a lot of people here sounding off on the format, but didn't see too many actually talking about doing it.

I'm asking because it's your idea and your forum (not because I'm trying to sound like a moron).

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