Institution of Occupational Safety and Health



WEBVTT100:00:01.230 --> 00:00:18.690David Whiffin: So, I mean, depending on whether people are interested or not a quick bit on me. I joined the Army 20 years ago I did an apprenticeship in helicopter engineering. I left after five years went and worked for a number of airlines, including Lufthansa200:00:19.980 --> 00:00:29.880David Whiffin: From now. I went on to making all the doors for a tree at from that I went to work for Rolls Royce from now is out to businesses into Rolls Royce. What a manufacturing business.300:00:30.210 --> 00:00:38.820David Whiffin: And one a quality business and then from that I've set up this business. So that's kind of my history and400:00:39.240 --> 00:00:47.760David Whiffin: A quick caveat in what I'm going to talk about today. Some of it is on the, on the, I wouldn't say is technical it's on the technical side.500:00:48.090 --> 00:00:59.760David Whiffin: I'm not a toxicologist and I. All I'm doing is relaying my understanding of how the equipment works. It's probably quite an when we get into one of the slides that will become clear as to why I'm telling you that600:01:00.660 --> 00:01:13.890David Whiffin: I'm also quite important. We do all of our work everything that we perform everything we do, we do in line with either the European workplace drug testing guidelines. Ew DTS.700:01:14.820 --> 00:01:25.380David Whiffin: Or the manufacturers specifications for the equipment. We're also members of the American drug testing industry, probably because they're the most forward.800:01:25.920 --> 00:01:34.740David Whiffin: So there isn't a there isn't a governing body in this country for workplace drugs and alcohol management at the moment. So the reason we use the European one.900:01:35.130 --> 00:01:50.910David Whiffin: Is it's the only one really that's fit for purpose. The reason we rely on the Americans is probably because they're the most forward thinking in what we're doing. So providing you can all see my screen. Is that, is that right, can everybody see the screen.1000:01:52.380 --> 00:02:06.720David Whiffin: Not in good. I've just tried to put it in there we go. Perfect. And so to start us off. I always like to try and do a bit of scene setting first1100:02:07.860 --> 00:02:18.690David Whiffin: Now in this thing setting. I'm going to talk about the the private and the public sectors and two people that we've worked with who how who now run1200:02:19.920 --> 00:02:29.850David Whiffin: Addiction clinics or rehab centers and their stories as to how they've managed to get them in sales into a substance misuse situation.1300:02:30.900 --> 00:02:33.240David Whiffin: surfer. And these people, these are their real names.1400:02:34.500 --> 00:02:42.900David Whiffin: Nick actually has a book called The thin white line should you be interested, you can get it on Amazon. It's free. I think so. It's not, it's not a paid for blood1500:02:44.460 --> 00:02:53.130David Whiffin: And it talks about next journey as a a police officer on what culminated in a six grams a day cocaine addiction.1600:02:54.630 --> 00:03:04.800David Whiffin: Nick's introduction to cocaine was as a young trainee, a young trainee police officer. He just passed his tests to join the map.1700:03:06.600 --> 00:03:16.380David Whiffin: On passing his test to join the met his cousin gave him a line of coke, who was also a serving police officer on the proviso that you're not going to get tested again.1800:03:17.310 --> 00:03:22.710David Whiffin: Nick found that cocaine did something for him that he couldn't necessarily do for himself.1900:03:23.190 --> 00:03:30.660David Whiffin: And from that he he got a gradual reliance on it, particularly through training, he found it helped him pass through training.2000:03:31.260 --> 00:03:44.280David Whiffin: And he build up to six ish grams a day to give you an idea of six ish grams a day and average an average gram of cocaine is normally split into somewhere between six and eight lines.2100:03:44.670 --> 00:03:51.000David Whiffin: Nick was using half a light half a gram per line. So we're talking about some quite significant use2200:03:51.930 --> 00:04:08.250David Whiffin: Stories, ranging from using it in the queue because of the police and the police station toilet leaving partner on the top of the toilet through to actually getting kicked out of the police force for beating somebody up in the back of a van was under the influence of cocaine.2300:04:09.390 --> 00:04:18.750David Whiffin: So there's quite a lot more detail ended up ended up in Berlin running drugs for the Albanian mafia is a short story. Now he runs quite a successful2400:04:19.530 --> 00:04:28.740David Whiffin: I wouldn't say just cocaine. But addiction rehab clinic in North London focusing on all kinds of addiction. But I would say a special team cocaine.2500:04:30.240 --> 00:04:40.050David Whiffin: Highly is a very different story. Haley was a senior manager for Costa coffee at the time of the Coca Cola acquisition2600:04:41.070 --> 00:04:45.030David Whiffin: Haley had been a social cocaine us up for 23 years2700:04:46.620 --> 00:04:53.700David Whiffin: When I say Social Web typically refer to a fry, dare I say a cheeky line on a Friday night or Saturday night.2800:04:55.350 --> 00:05:07.740David Whiffin: When the stress of her job. Got to such a degree that a Friday night line turned into a three o'clock on a Friday afternoon line in the queue because of the toilets.2900:05:08.250 --> 00:05:16.200David Whiffin: Just to get me through to Friday night, and then it, it kind of lead through to a Monday morning lines get me ready for the week.3000:05:17.190 --> 00:05:29.340David Whiffin: That was also exacerbated that she she hurt her back at the same time. And I don't know if any of you have ever known anybody who's taken Tramadol she began to take Tramadol for the back pain.3100:05:30.660 --> 00:05:36.720David Whiffin: Most people I've met who take Tramadol they all talk about something that's known as the Tramadol headache.3200:05:37.260 --> 00:05:46.350David Whiffin: And that is you can you would pop up Tramadol at eight o'clock at night to go to bed because of legitimate reasons because of legitimate pain and3300:05:47.220 --> 00:05:56.190David Whiffin: By eight o'clock the next morning, you will have a thumping headache. The Tramadol hangover. The only way to get rid of the time without hangover typically is to pop another Tramadol3400:05:57.150 --> 00:06:07.980David Whiffin: At the height of Haley's addiction, she was taking 40 Tramadol a week and about five grams of cocaine. A week when you're talking about five kinds of five grams of cocaine, the day3500:06:09.030 --> 00:06:19.410David Whiffin: Typical price per gram of cocaine is about 50 pounds. So within these people, you start to have some severe financial difficulties, you start to have some severe health issues.3600:06:20.190 --> 00:06:34.500David Whiffin: And you're busy. You have performance issues in Haley's case she was standing in front of about 400 Coca Cola executives explaining how the acquisition of Costa coffee was going and her nose started to bleed.3700:06:35.070 --> 00:06:44.880David Whiffin: And she blamed on a brain tumor, she collapsed in the conference hall and was entered into rehab. The next day, and now she spent her time working in rehab.3800:06:45.630 --> 00:07:00.930David Whiffin: So through this hopefully I've given you a taste of how this can affect what what are very white collar middle class people in quite high performing roles or in the case of the police officers are quite a normal a normal day to day role.3900:07:03.870 --> 00:07:18.060David Whiffin: So why test and a number of reasons you might test. I think I think being health and safety. The first one is not going to come as as any real surprise to many of you. It's for the prevention of incidents and accidents.4000:07:19.230 --> 00:07:24.480David Whiffin: We frequently talk about impairment. We don't talk about drug misuse or substance misuse.4100:07:25.260 --> 00:07:32.730David Whiffin: True impairment, if we're talking about our whole starts as low as eight micrograms of alcohol. There's quite a lot of data.4200:07:33.540 --> 00:07:47.370David Whiffin: Around eight micrograms of alcohol. You can be as much as 50% impaired. So that is a slowing of reaction times a slowing of judgment and an impairing of your ability to carry out whatever function is you may be choosing to the4300:07:48.570 --> 00:07:59.220David Whiffin: Sec. One of the major reasons that we exist as a business and probably where a good 80% of our business exists is in the heavily regulated industries.4400:08:00.090 --> 00:08:10.170David Whiffin: So there are four key industries really where specified levels of substance are allowed within a person. The first one being the marine industry.4500:08:11.070 --> 00:08:17.190David Whiffin: The second one being the oil and gas industry. The third the aviation industry. And the final one is the railway industry.4600:08:17.730 --> 00:08:27.780David Whiffin: Then on top of that you have a number of industries that may choose to adopt some form of approach, typically we see based on a customer requirement.4700:08:28.500 --> 00:08:38.340David Whiffin: A really good example is bell for BT are typically governed by network route. So, we will see quite strong measures put on bell for BT because of their Network Rail requirements.4800:08:39.120 --> 00:08:49.200David Whiffin: We have one client who builds factories for Astros Annika asteroids Danica have told them, You cannot build our factories, unless you have a robust drugs and alcohol policy that falls in line with us.4900:08:50.160 --> 00:08:57.570David Whiffin: The pharmaceutical guys do it. We don't do any pharmaceutical work really but they they seem quite forward thinking with regards to5000:08:58.620 --> 00:09:00.000David Whiffin: Drugs and alcohol management.5100:09:01.590 --> 00:09:09.480David Whiffin: And then finally, and and probably which is the, the biggest gap. And I'm going to leave talking too much about this until the end.5200:09:09.960 --> 00:09:21.240David Whiffin: But there is the mental health and well being. And typically we will talk about this in in what we would call self medication as a means of coping with stress in the workplace.5300:09:21.990 --> 00:09:31.920David Whiffin: Whether it be family life stress, whether it be workplace stress, whether it be some other stress and i think i think we're going to see more and more of this at the moment.5400:09:32.250 --> 00:09:39.120David Whiffin: This is particularly prevalent within aviation, we see a lot of this with pilots who spend long periods of time away from home.5500:09:40.020 --> 00:09:50.070David Whiffin: Who potentially they cope with the they cope with the problems of an engine going pop on takeoff. They don't cope so well with small children screaming at them when they walk in through the door.5600:09:53.460 --> 00:10:01.800David Whiffin: So hopefully now we've set the scene as to the sort of people that that this illness and I will always call this an illness can impact.5700:10:02.490 --> 00:10:12.240David Whiffin: And I will also like to think the reasons that typically a business or an organization might want to undertake this sort of testing.5800:10:13.170 --> 00:10:27.630David Whiffin: Every time we go and see a client. The first thing we do for our presentations. Generally, as we are the quick tool of Twitter and we look at the most random things that we can find and some of the things that that we get presented with on an almost daily basis.5900:10:28.770 --> 00:10:40.890David Whiffin: The amount of times I've been called by a member of the public. I got tested positive for cocaine at a roadside. Please stop. They've taken a sample. What are they going to find when they get the lab results back6000:10:41.640 --> 00:10:57.780David Whiffin: And nine times out of 10 it's because a friend has put it in their drink. So this seems to be a very common and you only have to have a look at Twitter, the fear of the drugs test is is something that's becoming more and more open in the public space, shall we say.6100:11:01.800 --> 00:11:13.230David Whiffin: So we move in to once an organization has decided it once or it needs to implement some form of of testing for its business.6200:11:15.000 --> 00:11:21.030David Whiffin: There's a number of there's a number of points to consider before you even go and push, dare I say the Go button.6300:11:22.350 --> 00:11:29.490David Whiffin: Is often incredibly contentious drugs and alcohol testing people feel as though they are they are having their privacy invaded6400:11:29.820 --> 00:11:36.930David Whiffin: They feel as though. Little Big Brother is watching them or that we don't have a right to have a look at these things.6500:11:37.500 --> 00:11:47.640David Whiffin: And I think from experience. We often are confronted with some I wouldn't say aggressive unions, but often concerned unions as to why should6600:11:48.090 --> 00:11:53.640David Whiffin: Why should an organization be, why should an organization be looking at this and6700:11:54.060 --> 00:12:06.090David Whiffin: So before we even go down the route of drafting policy and engaging with a workforce, we'd first of all want to engage with the management of the business to understand what the motivations.6800:12:06.660 --> 00:12:24.960David Whiffin: Are for why they are testing, what is the what is the pain going to look like down the line and that that really then sets the model when the tone for how the whole of the implementation of any such policy is going to go into an organization.6900:12:26.760 --> 00:12:37.770David Whiffin: I would say, and I will always say that policy is probably the single most important thing that an organization does when putting in a a drugs and alcohol management program.7000:12:38.850 --> 00:12:50.910David Whiffin: I would always look on the policy as your organization's armor and we work quite closely with them at the top of the screen you will see a quote from a chap called Gerard7100:12:51.480 --> 00:13:02.640David Whiffin: And he very much talks about using what is known as the best fit solution, not just having it in place, dare I say, just for the sake of saying that you can tick a box that you have something7200:13:03.750 --> 00:13:15.330David Whiffin: In place. So what does a policy do a policy should explain to both the, the organization and the staff, how the business will react with regards to drugs and alcohol management.7300:13:15.990 --> 00:13:32.880David Whiffin: The amount of times we go into a business. We get told that there is a policy in place and we get presented with a single paragraph. It doesn't set limits. It isn't linked to a disciplinary policy. It doesn't tell you how you're going to react if john has x amount of alcohol any system.7400:13:34.020 --> 00:13:44.040David Whiffin: I can give you anecdotal stories of one client that we advised we advise that and they they operated heavy goods vehicle drivers.7500:13:45.270 --> 00:13:51.960David Whiffin: They did not want to bring a policy in that had a whole limit lower than the drink Dr level and7600:13:52.770 --> 00:14:07.380David Whiffin: Despite in Europe. Many of you may know, there is a significantly lower level for alcohol for professional drivers and in Ireland, there is a zero tolerance, just for Karen and there's a zero tolerance, I believe, Karen for alcohol. Yes, good testing my knowledge, there7700:14:08.700 --> 00:14:18.450David Whiffin: So we got called in. He had been seen drinking clear liquid out of the clear plastic bottle but they suspected to be vodka.7800:14:18.900 --> 00:14:37.590David Whiffin: And he was a big lorry driver. So we're talking about a significant size of vehicle and it took us an hour and 45 minutes to get a we call our staff testing associates a testing associate to the to the facility tested him and he tested at 19 micrograms of alcohol.7900:14:39.060 --> 00:14:46.620David Whiffin: quite pleased, dare I say that he came in at 19 because it then presented a whole new set of challenges which we had advise the client on8000:14:47.790 --> 00:14:51.180David Whiffin: Around the business because they said, well, now we can release him to drive.8100:14:51.750 --> 00:15:03.390David Whiffin: But, rightly so, many of the managers and staff said, well, actually I don't feel comfortable releasing this member of staff to go and drive a vehicle, think back to what I said about true impairment, starting at eight micrograms.8200:15:04.530 --> 00:15:14.430David Whiffin: Interestingly, the aviation industry sets its alcohol limit to nine micrograms, which is the closest to what we would consider to be a zero tolerance policy.8300:15:15.120 --> 00:15:29.850David Whiffin: And we will call, incidentally, we will call in three weeks later to that same employee. It took us 45 minutes to get there and he tested at 126 micrograms. So yes, and he was running she wouldn't have even noticed. So8400:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.280David Whiffin: quite significant. So anyway, that's the power of the policy.8500:15:35.880 --> 00:15:45.720David Whiffin: One of the points from that story that employee with way suggested, well, if you can't get him on the alcohol level you can get him on drinking alcohol within the organization.8600:15:46.080 --> 00:15:51.420David Whiffin: They took that out because they didn't want anyone to get in trouble if they were giving gifts as a bottle of wine.8700:15:52.440 --> 00:15:59.790David Whiffin: And again, this is the point the policy should underline everything that we do, we do not do anything outside of a client's policy.8800:16:05.940 --> 00:16:17.970David Whiffin: So moving on. So when it comes to to setting the policy, typically we look and we talked about three really core elements to our business.8900:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.080David Whiffin: One is window of detection and I will9000:16:23.670 --> 00:16:34.350David Whiffin: Give you the three. The three top level ones and then I'll explain them as detection window of detection as the independence of laboratory. And then there is the Home Office approved equipment.9100:16:35.430 --> 00:16:47.130David Whiffin: So if we go into Windows of detection and hopefully on the graph on the graph that you can see on the, the right hand side, we only aligned to oral fluid as a business.9200:16:48.180 --> 00:16:51.000David Whiffin: The way oral fluid works is9300:16:52.200 --> 00:17:03.600David Whiffin: The, the compound is partitioned within the blood it seeps through the walls of the cheek. We swap the mouth, we take the compound out of the mouth and we test for it on the substance.9400:17:04.650 --> 00:17:15.810David Whiffin: That's typically how we see it as I would say our longest window of detection is probably 24 hours, realistically, we're probably talking nine hours, nine hours worth of9500:17:16.260 --> 00:17:26.640David Whiffin: Of detection period. Once they once they substance has been consumed and that the flip of that is urine. You're in looks for legacy metabolites.9600:17:27.300 --> 00:17:33.300David Whiffin: So in that a substance can exist in a person system as a legacy metabolite for up to four weeks.9700:17:33.840 --> 00:17:42.510David Whiffin: Let's say you have an employee that legitimately goes to Amsterdam. They legitimately smoke or eat something that they are allowed to do so.9800:17:43.470 --> 00:17:57.150David Whiffin: If an employee takes a drug test within four weeks of having done that activity you will more than likely get a I will call it a positive. Now I will go back and correct myself in a bit. You will get a positive show for that substance.9900:17:58.380 --> 00:18:17.490David Whiffin: The other challenge with oral fluid and you can look on it as a challenge we look on it as a benefit and THC, which is the active ingredient of cannabis does not partition. Well I likes fatty cells, it sticks to fatty cells and it doesn't pass through the walls of the mouth.10000:18:18.720 --> 00:18:29.700David Whiffin: That means that, actually, when we swap the mouth, the chances of us finding an active ingredient an active compound in the in the in the subjects.10100:18:31.140 --> 00:18:32.460David Whiffin: In the subjects mouth.10200:18:35.130 --> 00:18:36.390David Whiffin: In the subjects mouth.10300:18:39.090 --> 00:18:41.490David Whiffin: Sorry, I'm just had a comment coming in this just throw me10400:18:42.510 --> 00:18:43.530David Whiffin: And I'll just lost my10500:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.210David Whiffin: Very sorry everybody10600:18:52.920 --> 00:18:53.310David Whiffin: There we go.10700:18:54.330 --> 00:19:09.540David Whiffin: When we find THC within a person's mouth, the chances are, we are finding cannabis THC that has been consumed recently, rather than finding the compound actually acting in the person's body.10800:19:11.280 --> 00:19:14.040David Whiffin: Next we come into the independence of laboratory10900:19:15.330 --> 00:19:18.330David Whiffin: Well, actually, we're going to go into our home office approved equipment next11000:19:19.680 --> 00:19:27.870David Whiffin: The industry as a whole is is unregulated. So anybody within reason, provided they meet they meet some standards.11100:19:28.800 --> 00:19:44.310David Whiffin: can manufacture drugs and alcohol testing equipment and sell manufacturing drugs and alcohol testing equipment. In fact, there is one company that has notoriously taken a drug, a device to China ripped it off for a quarter of the price and now sells it as their own device.11200:19:45.510 --> 00:19:57.720David Whiffin: What does this mean for companies when performing testing it means there is a huge range on variation on success rates on accuracy on false positive false negatives.11300:19:58.560 --> 00:20:05.430David Whiffin: So there is a significant challenge in how equipment is managed within the drugs and alcohol testing industry.11400:20:06.150 --> 00:20:11.850David Whiffin: That said, the only true method of a of a solid robust approval, then11500:20:12.300 --> 00:20:21.030David Whiffin: Is a home office approval, a home office approval is about a million pounds per piece of equipment. So getting an approval is not something that they take lightly.11600:20:21.630 --> 00:20:30.840David Whiffin: There are only three Home Office approved alcohol devices and there is only one our home office approved drugs analyzer. There is a second home office approved.11700:20:32.490 --> 00:20:40.350David Whiffin: Drug wipe. But I wouldn't I we don't we don't align to that as a business and that's more of a rough and ready quick screener11800:20:42.150 --> 00:20:45.990David Whiffin: So now we come back then to the independence of laboratory11900:20:47.040 --> 00:20:58.080David Whiffin: A lot of labs make their own testing material. A lot of labs and take their homemade testing material which is normally aligned to urine and they take that into the workplace to test staff with12000:20:59.250 --> 00:21:12.360David Whiffin: They have ranging cut off levels they look for legacy metabolites and also then they potentially the cynic in, you could say they use it to then further their own business for laboratory testing.12100:21:12.990 --> 00:21:24.360David Whiffin: We don't make any money on our laboratory test. Testing and it's a pain in the bum, to be honest. So I would always advise that if you're going down the route of looking for drugs and alcohol management companies.12200:21:24.810 --> 00:21:38.970David Whiffin: You look for one that is agnostic to a laboratory. You certainly wouldn't want. I wouldn't want my workplace screening and then I come from a tree testing and I will go into come from a tree testing next done by the same party.12300:21:44.820 --> 00:21:57.720David Whiffin: This is where it gets a little bit technical. And this is probably where the I am very much close to the limit of my knowledge, so I've had quite a lot of sessions with toxicologists to understand this.12400:21:58.650 --> 00:22:08.610David Whiffin: In the background. That is a data sheet from a drug testing device and oral fluid drug testing device that you can buy on the open market today.12500:22:10.260 --> 00:22:19.350David Whiffin: In the, in the table that we have highlighted on the left hand side, you can see a list of names drugs.12600:22:20.400 --> 00:22:27.990David Whiffin: So we are specifically going to talk about marijuana in brackets THC, we will generally always refer to this as THC.12700:22:28.530 --> 00:22:42.540David Whiffin: And down the middle. That is the compound or the component that we are actually looking for when we are performing the test and then a column on the far right hand side that is our detection level. So that's the level at which we will start to see12800:22:43.590 --> 00:22:47.250David Whiffin: We will start to see a substance appear during a test.12900:22:48.390 --> 00:23:05.760David Whiffin: Cannabis widely ranges. It can be anywhere from 10 to 40 nano grams of THC per joint. So to give you an idea, it's very much like alcohol. It's hugely different from person to person.13000:23:07.500 --> 00:23:14.010David Whiffin: This, this is an illustration of how the unregulated market is flooded with with13100:23:15.360 --> 00:23:17.190David Whiffin: Challenging tests to use13200:23:18.300 --> 00:23:31.980David Whiffin: What's happened is a large company has responded to a a increased demand for oral fluid testing oral fluid testing is seen as quicker cleaner, more dignified and they a true test of impairment13300:23:33.390 --> 00:23:43.080David Whiffin: What they've done is they have repurposed the urine test, they have used the analysis method that you would use for testing urine and put that into an oral fluid test.13400:23:43.770 --> 00:23:50.220David Whiffin: The main challenges the oral fluid and urine testing. Look for two completely different compounds.13500:23:50.610 --> 00:24:01.020David Whiffin: So you will see in bright red. We've got an inactive metabolite, you could have as much marijuana in you as possible using that using that substance to look for it. We're never going to find it.13600:24:01.680 --> 00:24:08.970David Whiffin: On the back sheet of the same data sheet. There is a second table that then breaks down how it looks for marijuana13700:24:09.570 --> 00:24:17.490David Whiffin: And you will see we've we've put an arrow to delta nine THC. That is what we are looking for when we perform an oral fluid scrub.13800:24:18.060 --> 00:24:27.570David Whiffin: That is actually looking for 10,000 nanograms per milliliter of oral fluid when we swap. We look for 10 nanograms per milliliter of oral fluid.13900:24:28.050 --> 00:24:41.280David Whiffin: If you're having to swap to find someone at 10,000 nanograms per milliliter of oral fluid, I would be amazed if they could even stand. So that's just a quick part of the background, hopefully as to why we do what we do.14000:24:47.340 --> 00:25:07.740David Whiffin: So reasons for testing and we typically break our reasons for testing into three primary reasons for testing our primary reasons for testing would be for course random and pre employment and a four course test typically would include a post incident post accident on suspicion test.14100:25:08.760 --> 00:25:26.460David Whiffin: They are dare, dare I say, probably the least controversial. I think they're almost irrefutable if someone's had an accident actually or within reasons to to test that person and random is probably the most challenging form of testing that we do.14200:25:27.690 --> 00:25:36.390David Whiffin: With regards to unions with regards to employee buying with regards to organizational buying. We have some clients that wrote test.14300:25:36.960 --> 00:25:42.360David Whiffin: As low down as 1% of their workforce, we have a large builder in London.14400:25:42.960 --> 00:25:55.830David Whiffin: They have 1800 guys on site and every month they test 15 of those guys and they've got five of those sites in London building large office blocks. We have another client who is a a14500:25:56.790 --> 00:26:05.970David Whiffin: I don't sing a dancing organization and they hold national dances across the country they test 22% of their of their member base.14600:26:07.140 --> 00:26:26.430David Whiffin: So the, the variation on what we see for testing is huge, but typically would, we would expect to see somewhere between five and 10% of our workforce tested a year port of time. Interestingly, have 4000 staff on site and they test every member of staff at least once a year.14700:26:27.450 --> 00:26:31.920David Whiffin: So again, marine organization they are expected to be testing their staff.14800:26:33.120 --> 00:26:42.630David Whiffin: And and then pre employment testing. This is possibly the only place that we would maybe agree with the use of urine for testing.14900:26:43.290 --> 00:26:57.840David Whiffin: Partly because if someone's getting a pre employment test and they understand the methods that we use, you could argue that anyone could stay off the drugs for 24 hours 48 hours to be able to pass a drug test.15000:26:58.710 --> 00:27:12.120David Whiffin: That said, you're in is notoriously open to false positives false results. Part of the problem with false positives false results is you have a higher lab hit rate. So your lab costs increase15100:27:12.660 --> 00:27:16.380David Whiffin: If you're using in your workforce, naturally you will have a longer stand down period.15200:27:17.370 --> 00:27:25.710David Whiffin: If we were if we had a client who was to be wanting to do pre employment testing and they wanted a longer window of detection.15300:27:26.130 --> 00:27:34.410David Whiffin: For pre employment substance use and we would push them towards her hair sampling has sampling is no more expensive than urine testing.15400:27:34.890 --> 00:27:48.540David Whiffin: And typically we would see somewhere around about a month of US per centimeter of hair so we get a much better picture of what that person is doing during their during their substance misuse, shall we say.15500:27:54.090 --> 00:27:58.260David Whiffin: Moving on to the actual testing itself and15600:28:05.280 --> 00:28:07.800David Whiffin: The systems we use will15700:28:10.080 --> 00:28:13.680David Whiffin: Will. Typically identify what is in a person15800:28:15.030 --> 00:28:16.140David Whiffin: It will15900:28:17.250 --> 00:28:21.810David Whiffin: What can I say it, it will always see what is in the person's mouth so16000:28:22.530 --> 00:28:30.480David Whiffin: Really, really important that we follow correct procedure and all, again, I go back to me. I'm continually bang on about procedure and process.16100:28:30.900 --> 00:28:41.940David Whiffin: If we're not following procedure or process. Then when it comes to a problem with one of the samples that we have taken, then we don't have any defense in a tribunal Oracle16200:28:43.230 --> 00:28:53.640David Whiffin: So manufacturers recommend 15 minutes clear mouth. That's because everyone's body naturally produces a level of ethanol is normally very, very small. And these devices won't pick it up.16300:28:54.210 --> 00:29:07.020David Whiffin: If you put with that smoking chewing gum. Cigarettes. I know personally when I'm dehydrated and I pre crisis. I was probably blowing into one of these devices at least 10 times a week.16400:29:07.770 --> 00:29:14.910David Whiffin: When I'm dehydrated. I will normally record a small alcohol figure of somewhere between two or three micrograms of alcohol.16500:29:16.020 --> 00:29:25.080David Whiffin: Everybody, everybody does it. I've seen people take a cup of coffee and record a 10 and if you are in an aviation environment that would then lead to follow on procedures.16600:29:25.590 --> 00:29:45.750David Whiffin: So the following of process is incredibly important. It's also important that when we perform these tests we go through the process of collecting consent to test we collect consent to collect GDPR paper and GD P our data. We go through the process of collecting16700:29:46.890 --> 00:29:56.700David Whiffin: Understanding that they understand the test that they're about to undertake. And then we also collect consent or acceptance of the test that they've been through, and that has been16800:29:57.030 --> 00:30:07.410David Whiffin: Completed fair and justly so that underpins whether we're testing for drugs or whether we're testing for alcohol. It's all done in exactly the same way with exactly the same paperwork basis.16900:30:08.640 --> 00:30:18.840David Whiffin: As for alcohol testing alcohol testing is is very, very simple, it's a it's a yes or no. The device will deliver you are figure17000:30:19.500 --> 00:30:30.420David Whiffin: Providing you have set that properly within your policy then actually you you almost have have no point of answer or recourse if that figure is over.17100:30:31.080 --> 00:30:44.430David Whiffin: We have some clients that choose to give their employees a second chance we would always recommend that you give an employee a second chance, which normally involves going and sitting in the corner of the room for 15 minutes before every test is performed17200:30:45.930 --> 00:31:04.500David Whiffin: Drug testing is very, very different. So all NE NE regardless of the system that you're using all any drug tests can actually show you is the presence of a substance, it cannot show you how much substance is in the donor and it kind of show you what substances in the donor.17300:31:05.550 --> 00:31:24.570David Whiffin: So for that reason, we always will always call a positive sample and this equipment, a non negative test in our paperwork. I know that gets a little bit. A little bit back to front almost but we will come into the reasoning for that. Well, in fact, the reasoning for that is something like17400:31:25.680 --> 00:31:32.760David Whiffin: beacons cough mixture will show as an amphetamine Holland and Barrett CBD oil.17500:31:33.780 --> 00:31:43.830David Whiffin: Will show as THC for companies such as, as there is a there is a huge problem within the CBD oil space in that it's unregulated17600:31:44.820 --> 00:31:58.230David Whiffin: So when I when a company extracts CBD from a plant, if they extract it from the wrong plant, it will come with trace of THC and we will likely pick that up.17700:31:58.620 --> 00:32:13.050David Whiffin: And interestingly, there are laws coming into place next year to regulate the CBD market which will hopefully make our lives much more easier, or I'd like to think it will it will mean we will get less false positives on CBD.17800:32:14.070 --> 00:32:26.730David Whiffin: And so oral fluid. We've I think we've been through oral fluid. We've been through the process. We're now going into the realms of a non negative test.17900:32:27.180 --> 00:32:43.920David Whiffin: We call it a non negative test because any substance that we identify, we cannot identify what that substances. What should we do we take two more swab samples. The to swab samples are put in tamper proof bags and they are sent to a to a laboratory18000:32:45.060 --> 00:32:57.060David Whiffin: The lab will then hold one sample for four months. The reason the lab holds a sample for four months is should an employee be dismissed on the outcome of what we do as an organization.18100:32:57.870 --> 00:33:11.880David Whiffin: They have three months to take that dismissal to tribunal. So, should that then go to tribunal. They also have a month then to elect to send that sample to any other laboratory at their own cost, I would add18200:33:12.960 --> 00:33:29.610David Whiffin: To prove or disprove the initial sample, as far as I know we have never had one sample be refuted. And that's typically because when somebody has been found to have something in their system nine times out of 10 they put their hands up and say you've got me.18300:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.850David Whiffin: The other sample then is tested.18400:33:33.930 --> 00:33:45.630David Whiffin: And a report should be issued. One of the biggest challenges we see from different companies. And I can think of a large bus company that is having this problem at the moment.18500:33:46.980 --> 00:34:01.320David Whiffin: Under ew DTS guidelines, a laboratory is allowed to perform two types of tests. One is a screening test one is a complimentary test screening tests will come back with a single line and it will tell you exactly what we've already told18600:34:03.750 --> 00:34:11.160David Whiffin: You probably to the same level because they did a DTS. Do not stipulate that you have to be as thorough as we do.18700:34:12.330 --> 00:34:17.940David Whiffin: The. The other option is a complementary test that will break down all of the compounds within that person system.18800:34:18.390 --> 00:34:29.100David Whiffin: Unless you are getting that certificate back. You are only having a screening test performed, we see quite a lot of the missile, partly because it's cheaper for the laboratory to only perform a screening tests.18900:34:29.700 --> 00:34:44.940David Whiffin: A full set of results. The, the turnaround time or the, the actual whip time on the on the set of screening results is about 18 hours is about 18 hours for a confirmation test. It's about two hours for escape screening test. So you can see why the laboratories, do it.19000:34:46.950 --> 00:34:59.970David Whiffin: And a final point on this is all laboratories performing this activity. And to my knowledge, there aren't any that don't perform this activity that aren't approved must be approved to ISO 1702 five standard19100:35:03.450 --> 00:35:11.400David Whiffin: So hopefully now we've got a we've got a policy in place. We have a workforce that understand what we are going to put on them.19200:35:12.570 --> 00:35:18.870David Whiffin: We have a Union that is bought into the idea that we are going to bring this into an organization.19300:35:19.410 --> 00:35:34.560David Whiffin: And we also have an educated management team that can explain to their, their workforce what the impact of a drug test is along with, dare I say myth busting along the lines of, if I put a penny under my tongue will that for the equipment.19400:35:35.790 --> 00:35:42.390David Whiffin: Are poppy seeds going to fall the equipment, you name it. We've probably heard them.19500:35:44.310 --> 00:35:46.650David Whiffin: When it comes to identifying this in staff.19600:35:47.910 --> 00:35:56.760David Whiffin: I think many of us are probably familiar with alcohol use, I would say, and I go back to my big lorry driver example.19700:35:57.510 --> 00:36:03.330David Whiffin: He was at 126 and you probably wouldn't have known even our test when I tested turned up to test him.19800:36:03.660 --> 00:36:10.050David Whiffin: He said, I didn't think I was going to find anything on him. So it, and these are people that are used to seeing this. I think he's an ex police officer.19900:36:10.380 --> 00:36:18.330David Whiffin: That one. So these are people that are used to seeing it. So this is just because you think that alcohol may or may not be present. It's not always that easy to tell20000:36:19.470 --> 00:36:35.610David Whiffin: Withdraw drugs, probably the most significant one that the rehab clinics talk about is the is the debt or the advance requests on wages and so if you are seeing employees we routinely asked for, for advances.20100:36:36.690 --> 00:36:48.630David Whiffin: Routinely having issues with money, you may won't see them. You may will see them have some sort of problem. Another big one is the a quick change mood swing. If you look at the use of cocaine.20200:36:49.650 --> 00:37:03.480David Whiffin: Cocaine typically is only going to have an effect on a person for 15 minutes to half an hour, but you will see a very quick pick up and typically you're looking for that very swift change in personality.20300:37:03.900 --> 00:37:15.000David Whiffin: Unless you work with that person. Super frequently, I would be surprised if a, let's say, a peripheral colleague would potentially noticed such a change20400:37:17.160 --> 00:37:34.710David Whiffin: And now we I as a business. A large part of what we do is we create problems within businesses, dare I say, or create problems for the organization to have to handle. We found the problem. What are you as an organization going to do in this20500:37:35.970 --> 00:37:44.460David Whiffin: This isn't something that we get involved with, but we have an obligation to support organizations with how they deal with this.20600:37:45.390 --> 00:37:58.950David Whiffin: Something that we're because we are a very aviation focused business, something that we are very big on and there's legislation coming into aviation around this is a peer to peer support network.20700:37:59.880 --> 00:38:20.880David Whiffin: So that the idea of that is preventing the problem before it arises someone to talk to someone to work the issues through, whether they be work related or not. And actually prevent the point at which self medication would really come into a employees life or lifestyle.20800:38:21.900 --> 00:38:28.110David Whiffin: And the next one is an employee support program again there's there's many good ones out there. It's not something we get into20900:38:28.770 --> 00:38:31.710David Whiffin: And then, at worst case, dare I say we go down the rehab route.21000:38:32.700 --> 00:38:43.110David Whiffin: Typically we are involved in signposting and we will help. We will help organizations and we see a huge range of organizations, typically the building companies aren't interested21100:38:44.100 --> 00:38:48.720David Whiffin: From my experience, many of the building companies will just release them and let them go and find another job.21200:38:49.680 --> 00:39:03.330David Whiffin: It's often down to how much that employee costs to to find to train and to retain probably. And if you look at someone like British Airways British Airways put their pilots in the primary at 3030 ish grand21300:39:04.290 --> 00:39:17.670David Whiffin: For a recovery for a pilot so BA BA BA are quite proactive and somebody like PR Joe citron with personas citron if you put your hand up before you have a test and say that you have an issue.21400:39:18.330 --> 00:39:27.930David Whiffin: Per show citron will support you if they if you don't put your hand up before you have a test, they will they will take quite decisive action on removing that employee from the business.21500:39:30.600 --> 00:39:40.620David Whiffin: And then finally, and I think this is my final slide is a last word on what we're all going through at the moment.21600:39:41.160 --> 00:39:51.030David Whiffin: And I, and I, I'd like to think I'm, I'm probably one of the shining examples of this. My wife is a full time worker.21700:39:51.750 --> 00:40:00.600David Whiffin: My wife is a full time worker within an NHS environment, she's not an NHS employee, but within an NHS environment. So she's quite busy.21800:40:01.200 --> 00:40:05.190David Whiffin: I run a daily o'clock, and we have a five year old and a seven year old.21900:40:05.970 --> 00:40:13.800David Whiffin: To say that we have a level of stress in our lives at the moment would be something of an underestimate to say to I'm reach for a22000:40:14.190 --> 00:40:29.370David Whiffin: midweek glass of wine with dinner more frequently than I would have done before would be very accurate. And I think there are a lot of people at home, stressed worried about their work worried about what life looks like post wherever we are now.22100:40:30.450 --> 00:40:39.630David Whiffin: And I think you're, you're almost going to see a level of problem postcode around self medication and substance misuse.22200:40:40.740 --> 00:40:48.660David Whiffin: And hopefully you found that quite informative and I'm open for any questions.22300:40:54.450 --> 00:40:55.200Roger Ward: So if you'd like.22400:40:56.340 --> 00:41:00.900Roger Ward: To raise your hand, either on the screen or whichever way you prefer.22500:41:04.800 --> 00:41:05.910Roger Ward: And I'll say anybody22600:41:07.590 --> 00:41:10.860Roger Ward: Your Online making loads of notes, it's all very quiet.22700:41:12.780 --> 00:41:14.490Roger Ward: Oh, I know we got a hand go up there.22800:41:17.610 --> 00:41:18.030Roger Ward: To22900:41:18.780 --> 00:41:22.320Roger Ward: Karen, Karen. Sorry. Karen on the right.23000:41:24.390 --> 00:41:25.350David Whiffin: Here and you're muted.23100:41:30.150 --> 00:41:40.980Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Right there should be able to hear me. No. But first of all, David, just to clarify, and I said it's apologies hair day about the North. What it is, is it's actually 20 megs for23200:41:42.240 --> 00:41:47.160Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: propels in Ireland for professional drivers and also for novice drivers.23300:41:48.270 --> 00:41:54.270David Whiffin: I think I Island. This I might be wrong but Island is 22 flat. So it's a bit like Scotland.23400:41:54.540 --> 00:41:56.730David Whiffin: Scotland is 22 flat for everybody.23500:41:57.720 --> 00:42:10.830David Whiffin: I believe learner drivers or new drivers within two years have nine and I wasn't sure whether it's professional drivers that have nine or zero, but somewhere like France professional drivers are at zero.23600:42:11.160 --> 00:42:12.540Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Yeah, I just checked us to make23700:42:14.280 --> 00:42:14.700Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: So,23800:42:15.780 --> 00:42:24.570Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: What I would say, which is a similar in Ireland, we have a situation with and railways, where there's actually very, very strict testing.23900:42:25.380 --> 00:42:36.210Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Of drugs. But the one thing is just to reaffirm what you said in and we have this and they're looking at champs will solve them from carry their system on the24000:42:37.800 --> 00:42:45.270Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Weather webinar as well. We've got a scenario with the 2005 safety, health and welfare at work acts of that there is provision for intoxicant testing.24100:42:46.230 --> 00:42:56.460Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: But it needs regulations and the unions have dug their heels in, and have yet to agree to testing to go into the place and that's 15 years down the line.24200:42:57.360 --> 00:43:12.180Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: So I just said that that might just help you know our religious you're up to speed, your week we reconnected regulations, the last few weeks, but it's just it seems to be which you cannot understand the role of the Union's is to protect people24300:43:12.810 --> 00:43:14.100Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: I'm just wondering if you could24400:43:14.220 --> 00:43:24.960Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Explore, is there anything in your mind. Is that worse or what a better way to explain why the hell are so opposed to saving their members lives in the colleagues.24500:43:25.650 --> 00:43:30.870David Whiffin: I often liken this to. So I think raises a really interesting point.24600:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.890David Whiffin: So if I if I try and break your question down into a few points.24700:43:35.940 --> 00:43:38.880David Whiffin: First of all, with railways. Interestingly, the RSS be24800:43:40.050 --> 00:43:53.550David Whiffin: So the, the router safety and Standards Board, they define for the industry how testing should be performed and they specifically state oral fluid and urine testing are equally as applicable.24900:43:54.900 --> 00:44:06.660David Whiffin: Network Rao network Rao is probably the first major organization in the UK to begin testing specifically state urine I for me.25000:44:06.900 --> 00:44:09.270David Whiffin: Someone wanted to test my urine in the workplace.25100:44:09.330 --> 00:44:22.950David Whiffin: I find it undignified and it's on a girl, I would, I would have huge issue with that. And so that's that that that I think that's a really important point is the way the railways over this side of the water.25200:44:23.370 --> 00:44:25.500David Whiffin: Do drugs and alcohol management is25300:44:25.530 --> 00:44:40.650David Whiffin: Quite an old way of doing it. It's partly because most of the management of network. Our all XRS there seems to be a revolving door of RF in network route and they and they rely I see Alan laughing at me. Is that, is that right, Alan, or, um,25400:44:41.970 --> 00:44:54.450David Whiffin: Yeah, so we generally don't go too near the network route business. However, it's something that we're starting to get interested in is an impairment over lifestyle testing.25500:44:55.500 --> 00:44:56.910David Whiffin: When you come to the unions.25600:44:58.110 --> 00:45:06.300David Whiffin: So with the unions, I will start with balpa because belper is a a real victory for us as an organization.25700:45:06.780 --> 00:45:13.230David Whiffin: I literally had the head of balpa standing up screaming at me, you will never get drugs and alcohol testing into aviation this time last year.25800:45:14.190 --> 00:45:24.090David Whiffin: There is a yasser a European Aviation Safety Agency ruling that says, as of this august all airlines have to implement a random testing program.25900:45:24.600 --> 00:45:33.630David Whiffin: So my whole basis for starting this business was around this regulation coming in that there is a there is a very clear market for where this is going.26000:45:34.380 --> 00:45:44.160David Whiffin: Incidentally, because of covert that regulation has been pushed back six months so balpa the Union are incredibly, incredibly against it.26100:45:44.670 --> 00:45:54.870David Whiffin: I spent a lot of time with the, the management of the Union, the leaders of the Union explaining them the difference of impairment testing versus lifestyle testing.26200:45:55.290 --> 00:45:59.250David Whiffin: And then independence between the laboratory and the testing company.26300:45:59.640 --> 00:46:07.290David Whiffin: And in mind you never should you be responsible for marketing your own homework. In fact, nowhere else do you really get to mark your own homework.26400:46:07.590 --> 00:46:13.650David Whiffin: And then, sell, sell and make money out the marking off that homework. So I find that fundamentally flawed.26500:46:14.580 --> 00:46:22.890David Whiffin: So the, the first element is a need to educate the unions, so much so that we wrote the guidelines for balpa26600:46:23.310 --> 00:46:33.270David Whiffin: belper is the British airline pilots Association and we wrote the guidelines for our part to their union reps on how drug testing should be implemented into an airline26700:46:33.750 --> 00:46:46.410David Whiffin: So my first, my first response to that would be early engagement with the unions is absolutely key. I can give you another example. We run the drugs and alcohol management program for Sunderland city council.26800:46:47.490 --> 00:46:53.610David Whiffin: So predominant unions in councils that you will see will be unite the GMB and unison.26900:46:54.510 --> 00:46:59.790David Whiffin: All three had huge issue with the implementation of a drugs and alcohol management program.27000:47:00.270 --> 00:47:08.460David Whiffin: And again, I, I would always say, if one of your members is climbing under a bus that has been jacked up by another one of your members.27100:47:08.880 --> 00:47:17.070David Whiffin: Would you not want to know that that member was unimpaired when they jack that bus up and I find that a very difficult argument to come against27200:47:17.610 --> 00:47:29.340David Whiffin: That said, I've had managing directors screaming at me engineers episodes engineers drink 16 points on a Sunday night, it's none of my business. What they come into work and do27300:47:29.700 --> 00:47:39.690David Whiffin: Have if they get three offenses on their license for speeding. Then we fire them. So again, I really struggle with this this concept. And I think within the UK.27400:47:40.110 --> 00:47:48.210David Whiffin: There is a cultural acceptance of when I was an apprentice. I went to the public lunchtime and I had three or four pints at lunchtime.27500:47:48.720 --> 00:47:53.910David Whiffin: And unfortunately, most of the senior managers that you see within organizations at the moment. Our of27600:47:54.300 --> 00:48:02.310David Whiffin: Our of that generation. My father is one of when I was an apprentice. I have six points. What's wrong with it. He totally doesn't get this business. And what we do.27700:48:03.060 --> 00:48:12.180David Whiffin: So there is a a huge education piece culturally and there's two elements to that education piece. There's, there's one the unacceptable of being impaired at work.27800:48:12.690 --> 00:48:20.070David Whiffin: The other education piece. And I think is significantly missed at the moment. And that is when you produce a non negative sample.27900:48:20.370 --> 00:48:33.150David Whiffin: For something like the terms for CBD oil for Berlin for como for Tramadol for any of the diaspora pans that may be a sleeping medication on an anxiety medication.28000:48:33.660 --> 00:48:41.940David Whiffin: That you don't get a stigma attached to you in your workplace, because that could be just as damaging to the employee and the individual within the organization.28100:48:42.300 --> 00:48:50.760David Whiffin: As the impact of an impaired employee being in the organization. And so the there's two elements to that that cultural education thing.28200:48:51.510 --> 00:49:05.700David Whiffin: Go back to the unions, the best thing to do is invite three or four drugs and alcohol testing businesses to meet the unions, I spend loads of my time with the unions and one of the best examples I got contacted by unite28300:49:06.720 --> 00:49:18.780David Whiffin: Rolls Royce here in Dart. So we're based in Darby Rolls Royce here in Darby had been informed of a problem within their apprentice population within the College of cannabis smoking.28400:49:20.430 --> 00:49:34.890David Whiffin: Rolls Royce rolled out just for the class. Some urine testing across the apprentices and yeah I mean they the Union's went to DEF CON 10 within seconds.28500:49:35.670 --> 00:49:48.120David Whiffin: So the first thing you need to do is, why are you testing treat employees, the same and get the policy sorted. You don't have the policies or did you don't have the right to go and test 10 employees because someone smell a bit of weed.28600:49:49.230 --> 00:49:51.630David Whiffin: So hopefully I've answered your question.28700:49:56.520 --> 00:50:09.630Roger Ward: Have you. Thanks. Just one quick one from the inside, about policies, how many companies do you go into that haven't got a policy and lives that have where's the policy Buddhist the policies Chiquita28800:50:11.520 --> 00:50:18.420David Whiffin: So when you say how many companies don't have a policy when really, when we write a policy.28900:50:19.020 --> 00:50:33.570David Whiffin: Generally somewhere between 14 and 18 pages with diagrams of of compliance. It's linked to disciplinary policy, it will define what an employee. What will happen to an employee if they refuse a test.29000:50:33.960 --> 00:50:42.750David Whiffin: If they withdraw from a test if they if they meet don't meet any parts of the policy a what we see more and more and more frequently.29100:50:43.680 --> 00:50:53.280David Whiffin: across all industries is we've got a policy. We've got a paragraph, we do not tolerate drugs or alcohol within our organization. Well, first of all,29200:50:53.850 --> 00:51:03.600David Whiffin: What does that mean, what does that mean when you get an employee with an under the drink drive limit in their system. What does it mean when you come to test them. What does it mean when they refuse a test.29300:51:03.930 --> 00:51:12.750David Whiffin: And typically, this will this will all flush out when we, when we meet them for the first time, like, well, we've got a policy. So we don't need a policy, but what do we do if29400:51:13.800 --> 00:51:21.390David Whiffin: You've got a policy your policy is going to tell you what you're what you're going to do if you find something. So my first response would be29500:51:22.620 --> 00:51:42.270David Whiffin: And I will. There is a name and shame we we do some work for so so so in the UK, no one is allowed on so Southampton site without presenting a clear drugs or alcohol test doesn't have to come from us. It can come from one of a range of companies.29600:51:43.650 --> 00:51:54.840David Whiffin: Before we ever do any third party testing on behalf of a company, we will always ask, Can we see your policy because we want to make sure we're testing in line with your guidelines within your policy.29700:51:55.530 --> 00:52:04.440David Whiffin: Now the oil and gas industry policy or the oil and gas industry regulations differ from most industry regulations and as far as they are and I29800:52:05.400 --> 00:52:11.730David Whiffin: stand to be corrected, but they are the only industry that specify levels of drunks within a donor.29900:52:12.210 --> 00:52:20.820David Whiffin: Right. And to give you some reference points for the drug drive limit in the UK for cannabis is two nanograms per milliliter of blood.30000:52:21.390 --> 00:52:29.070David Whiffin: Now what we do equates to blood. So two nanograms per milliliter of blood can equate to two nanograms per milliliter of oral fluid.30100:52:29.970 --> 00:52:37.380David Whiffin: The place currently tests to 10 nanograms per milliliter of all fluid. So if you get nicked by a police officer.30200:52:37.800 --> 00:52:48.150David Whiffin: Typically, what's going to happen is they're going to screen the roadside, they are going to find a positive show. And that's all the police officer will see, they will see a positive show for THC for cannabis.30300:52:48.600 --> 00:52:58.890David Whiffin: And then they have to get you back to the custody. Sweet. They have to call somebody out to take blood, you need a registered professional to take blood and they have to say that that sample of blood off to a laboratory30400:52:59.400 --> 00:53:13.050David Whiffin: Let's allow that process to take three hours. So the reason the police test to 10 instead of by the time they've done that process they guarantee the conviction of over five, the police normally won't convict anyone for over 505 nano grams.30500:53:13.590 --> 00:53:18.300David Whiffin: Of cannabis within their blood because they're not they're not confident that they will get that conviction.30600:53:18.840 --> 00:53:24.210David Whiffin: I believe there's a dragger person on this call at the moment and he might fact check me and tell me I'm wrong later.30700:53:25.080 --> 00:53:33.990David Whiffin: But that is my knowledge of how the police operate at the moment equate that to the oil and gas industry. The oil and gas industry specifically state.30800:53:34.530 --> 00:53:48.960David Whiffin: Three nano grams of THC within a person system. The only industry to do so. There is no testing equipment on the planet at the moment that can screen in the workplace to three nano grams of THC. So, and they recognize this in the regulations.30900:53:49.470 --> 00:54:03.000David Whiffin: So, due to a degree of follow some of these regulations. However, their policy was written in 2007 and their allowable level of alcohol within the so policy is at 40 micrograms of alcohol.31000:54:03.450 --> 00:54:10.710David Whiffin: So in short, you can you can be under the limit or you can be over the limit driving to work. But once you turn up to work. You're right.31100:54:11.760 --> 00:54:25.560David Whiffin: So, and that partly that's because until I think it's 2014 the police wouldn't prosecute anyone for over 40 over 40 micrograms of alcohol within their system. It's just so haven't updated it31200:54:26.430 --> 00:54:41.640David Whiffin: And then there's you if you speak to us about this. There's no one in the UK that can actually affect that policy. So it has to come from America. So when I see employee when I see companies that say they have policies. Yes, they may have some guidelines, but they don't have a policy.31300:54:42.720 --> 00:54:44.550David Whiffin: Very long winded answer, I think, sorry.31400:54:45.450 --> 00:54:50.610Roger Ward: Great. Lovely. Thanks, Doug, is there any more questions. I'll quickly go through31500:54:54.390 --> 00:54:55.950Roger Ward: Everybody's got their31600:54:57.270 --> 00:54:57.720David Whiffin: I do have31700:54:58.740 --> 00:55:18.750David Whiffin: I have some interesting so I'll throw a couple of interesting statistics at you if if that would help. And that is that London is the highest cocaine consuming city in Europe, London consumes more cocaine than Amsterdam Berlin and Barcelona combined31800:55:20.190 --> 00:55:30.300David Whiffin: London consumes 23 kilograms of cocaine a day, and that was done on measuring the effluent from the city, not from what they think is going in. But from what they're actually seeing31900:55:30.570 --> 00:55:37.860David Whiffin: Come out of the city. To give you an idea, Berlin and Amsterdam are both around 12.5 12.30. No, that's32000:55:38.520 --> 00:55:49.950David Whiffin: Amsterdam or Berlin is at 12 and then the others are at nine and six. So an only higher than London in Europe is Bristol in Bristol consumes more than anywhere else in the whole of Europe, so there's32100:55:50.370 --> 00:55:51.780David Whiffin: Some interesting stuff for you.32200:55:52.320 --> 00:55:53.880Roger Ward: And Jeff anybody from Bridgestone32300:55:58.290 --> 00:56:13.260Roger Ward: Right by saying thanks very much diving. That's brilliant. And before we give you the customer a round of applause virtual it maybe before I forget these just, I've got a message here from32400:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.180Roger Ward: From Karen.32500:56:19.200 --> 00:56:32.010Roger Ward: Karen is a member of the council and he just wanted to let everybody know they'd be sharing his contact details with members of midshires so that you're able to contact him.32600:56:33.240 --> 00:56:36.960Roger Ward: So, okay, I don't know whether you want to add anything to that.32700:56:37.650 --> 00:56:40.620Ciarán Delaney IOSH Council Member: Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for that. Roger. I'm a member of ................
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