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>> In this particular session, you're going to be seeing the person-centered approach being demonstrated with Stan, and I'd like you to assume that this is our fourth session, again, with the person-centered approach, and you'll see me attempting to understand Stan's struggle with finding his own way and finding his own inner resources about making decisions in his life.

[ Silence ]

>> How is it for you to be here?

>> Well, I have a question I want to ask you, and I don't know how to ask it because -- I don't know. I just -- I guess I'll just come out and say it. I've been thinking -- you know, we've been working together for a while, and I'm kind of learning a lot of stuff about myself. And I was thinking about maybe contacting my ex-wife and kind of telling her some of the things that I'm learning about myself to kind of explain to her kind of where I was coming from. And I'm wondering -- I don't know if I should do that or not. Maybe you could tell me if it's a good idea. Do you think it's a good idea to call her?

>> Um-hum. I don't want to be evasive, and I really hear you want an answer from me with this, but I would rather hear your idea first. What do you think? Is it a good idea for you to contact her?

>> Well, I don't know. I mean, I want to, but I always screw things up, so I'm afraid if I call her, I will just make things worse. If she's seeing somebody else, I don't want to know about that, so that's a problem. I don't want to -- I just have things I want to say, but I don't know if that's going to make things better or worse if I do. So that's why I'm asking you, which is -- you seem like you're able to make pretty good choices and decisions, and I've just screwed everything up. So maybe you could help me.

>> And I notice this is kind of a pattern for you, too, that frequently you want me to tell you things and give you guidance and direction and even answers to things you're struggling with. And I sense your frustration that I don't do what you want me to do.

>> Yeah, it seems like a pretty simple -- like a yes or no would be helpful.

>> Yeah. You know what? It's hard for me sometimes. Sometimes I'd want to be able to give you an answer, and I hope you believe me that I don't have those answers to give you. You know, it's got to be frustrating for you. I'm sorry. You know, I don't know.

>> Well, let me tell you a little bit about how it is for me to be with you right now when you say that. You say it must be frustrating for you. It isn't. I don't feel myself frustrated with you.

>> I don't know. I'm -- I don't see how you couldn't be frustrated.

>> I'm really experiencing the struggle that you go through and how desperate, sometimes, you are for an answer. And I wish -- I really do wish I could give you what you want. And yet, I just don't believe that that would be ultimately in your best interest. I think I'd be short-circuiting the whole process. I really think I have a lot more faith in your ability to find a direction than you have in yourself at this moment.

>> Well, yeah -- I don't know. I just go back to the idea that I just haven't made such good choices before.

>> Yeah, yeah. And I'm certainly willing to listen to any anxiety surrounding not making good choices. We could talk about that if you want.

>> So you really don't get tired -- you don't get tired of this? I do. I get tired of just being confused all the time about what I should do, and every little decision is like a big deal. I don't know. I just seem to be tied up.

>> Yeah, I hear you saying that I'm weak, and that I can't make decisions and just get on with it.

>> Yeah. I mean, that's what it feels like. Like I should just snap out of it and get on with it.

>> Um-hum. Yeah.

>> It seems that's what my dad would say.

>> Your dad would say.

>> Suck it up.

>> Suck it up.

>> Yeah.

>> Suck it up. Yeah. And is that what you're doing?

>> Maybe a little bit. I don't know. I don't feel like I'm sucking it up in here. Doing a lot of bellyaching in here.

>> Yeah. You know, again, I want to tell you a little bit more about my experience with you in these sessions because that's all I have with you. Sometimes it's a bit sad for me to experience how hard you are on yourself, like right now, all I'm doing is bellyaching. You know? I notice how many times you kind of put yourself down. I'm aware of that. I appreciate that you're willing to talk out loud about that.

>> Thanks. I don't -- it doesn't feel like -- it doesn't feel normal to talk about that.

>> Um-hum. So some how I'm different.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't fit in. Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's -- I don't know. I'm not used to asking someone what they're thinking of me.

>> Yeah. You just assume what people are thinking of you.

>> I guess.

>> And it sounds like usually it's the worst. Um-hum. Now, I've been seeing you a few times. I kind of wonder if you have thoughts about what I'm thinking about you.

>> Yeah, all the time, I think.

>> All the time?

>> Yeah, when I'm -- when I leave, I always wonder, "God, he must think I'm such a loser or such a blow it." Yeah.

>> And you haven't brought that up before, I've noticed.

>> No. No, I haven't.

>> Would you be interested in knowing what I think about you?

>> Maybe.

>> Maybe.

>> I think I am. I definitely think I am. I mean, maybe, a little concerned about -- you know, you might give it to me straight kind of a thing.

>> Yeah, well, I hope I could. I hope I could be honest in my feedback to you. And you've said a few times, you're afraid I'd be judging you in one way or another, what I'd be thinking about you. And I want you to know I'm not aware of judgmental thoughts about you, or that you should be any place other than you are, you know? And I do appreciate that it's difficult. Who said this work is easy?

>> Sometimes that's hard to -- when I hear that, it's hard to believe. In a way, it's kind of like part of me really wants to believe you, but the other part is wondering if you're just trying to make me feel better.

>> Yeah. Well, what do you think? Do you think I'm trying to make you feel better? Right off the top of your head.

>> Well, maybe a little bit, but I also know you've said some things that haven't been so good to hear, too, sometimes.

>> Yeah. I sure hope I wouldn't be just saying things to make you feel better because that would be short-lived. It wouldn't last very long. You wouldn't even get out the door, here, from this session, and you'd say, oh well, he was just being kind to me. But I am aware of sometimes how hard you make it with yourself, and that you just have a hard time trusting any of your own choices. And I, frankly, have a lot more belief that even though you may make mistakes, like if you were to choose to go and encounter your ex-wife in the future, that you might not say everything perfectly or the way you want, but I am confident that if you made that decision, you wouldn't have to mess it up, as you say, totally.

>> I do want her to know the things that I'm learning.

>> You want her to know what you're learning in here, or what?

>> Well, about me -- yeah, I do. I mean, I think -- I do. I think it's important.

>> Um-hum. Yeah. And so maybe eventually you might be able to make that step.

>> Yeah, eventually.

>> I would certainly be willing and encourage you and invite you to talk a lot more about that struggle about approaching her in here.

>> Okay.

>> Do you feel that freedom to do that in here?

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes I just want to get on with it and wrap it up really quickly and get moving.

>> Right. And I sense that impatience, and I want you to know that I'm not impatient with your process. So I'm hoping you can talk a lot more about your struggle with your ex-wife and what you might want to say and what you're afraid of saying. All what you're saying now, I don't feel at all impatient with or judging. I just want to give you an opportunity to do more of this.

>> Okay.

>> How is it to hear what I'm saying?

>> It's a relief because I think that since I'm feeling impatient about it, you have to be feeling impatient about it. But I'm seeing that maybe I don't perceive everything so well.

>> Um-hum. Yeah, maybe you're more impatient with yourself than others are, or at least I am in this capacity.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, I hope you'll continue to be willing to talk about what it's like for you to be on the other end of this relationship with me because I think from time to time, we need to bring each other up to date of what's happening in here because if you're having thought about me, as you said you did, and particularly that I might be judging you, and you don't say it, I think that's going to get in our way.

>> Okay.

>> So I hope that both of us can talk, and I'll surely let you know if things are difficult for me with you, I would very much want to let you know what's difficult for me with you. That's part of my contract.

>> Okay, good. Okay.

>> Okay.

[ Silence ]

>> Let me make a few comments about this person-centered approach to working with Stan. You know, I think the person-centered approach allows for a lot more than just simply reflecting and active listening. That's a very important part of this approach, and I certainly think any approach, the therapist needs to listen and accurately reflect what he or she is hearing. But in this particular session, I was focusing on immediacy, the immediacy of Stan's and my relationship. It seem that if we didn't talk about this, that the session would go nowhere because Stan was very concerned about what I was thinking about him and how I might be viewing him and how I might be judging him. And so I didn't want to be too supportive and say, oh, you know, you're just fine the way you are, but I wanted to let him know how I was really perceiving him. So that was my rationale for giving a bit of self-disclosure about how I viewed him and saw him in this relationship. You noticed that Stan came in the session very much thinking about and wanting to ask a question of me, mainly, tell me what to do with my ex-wife. Should I approach her or not? And he was very concerned that he might mess it up if he did approach her. Again, I don't think that it's a good thing to give a quick answer. I really do believe that Stan has, within himself, the capacity to make a decision that will be constructive in the long run if he's willing to talk about, in these sessions, all of his feelings and thoughts, and I encouraged him to do that. And finally, I really want Stan to begin to kind of make a decision, tentatively at least, and seeing where that decision might take him.

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