Hip-Hop Town Hall Discussion (3-13-07) - WILL
Hip-Hop Town Hall Discussion (3-13-07) Transcript
Will Patterson: Good evening.
Collectively: Good evening.
Will Patterson: I gotta have something better than that. Good evening!
Collectively: Good evening!
Will Patterson: Welcome to what we consider the absolute bomb event tonight, as we look at a phenomenal film by a phenomenal filmmaker, Byron Hurt. You’re participating in something that is quite fun, quite nurturing, quite rewarding. It’s the Youth Media Workshop. The Youth Media Workshop is a concept very similar to the children’s television workshop. You all are familiar with Sesame Street and Electric Company, and things like that. Well, this whole idea of youth media workshop is a spin-off of that particular idea, where you can bring in universities to work with issues around media, media literacy, and working with young people in that particular capacity. Here locally, as someone that grew up with WILL and the Children’s Television Workshop, the whole idea behind this was, again, to look at issues that were impacting young people, the hip-hop generation, my generation being on the front end of that, born in 1965, growing up, again, with [inaudible] programs and media playing a critical role in those African [inaudible]. We know that hip-hop today is still a media-based culture, and that more importantly hip-hop is something that is—that the media is something that hip-hop doesn’t always control. And so, we’re about making certain that in today’s era, where the media tools are best, that we’re exposing young people to take control of their media images by empowering them with the necessary tools to collect data, to tell an appropriate story about their experiences, about the communities and who they are. There are several young people around here, as you will see. This taping—this will be a show that’s gonna be airing on WILL in May, and one specific date will come with that. Before I go on, Kimberlie Kranich, please stand up, because this is my partner in crime.
[applause]
Will Patterson: The young people, you need to know who they are in terms of who’s behind the camera. Elaine, will you please show your hand.
[applause]
Will Patterson: We have Ken.
[applause]
Will Patterson: And our master teacher Shameem Rakha from Franklin Middle School, Shameem Rakha.
[applause]
Will Patterson: At this time, I’m gonna bring in the man of the hour to help bring up into light regarding his work, Mr. Byron Hurt. Byron Hurt is the New York-based producer of the award-winning documentary and underground classic, I Am a Man: Black Masculinity in American and Moving Memories. The Black senior video yearbook. Hurt is a former Northeastern University football star and long-time gender-bias prevention educator. For more than 5 years, he was the associate director and founding member of the Mentors in Violence Prevention Program. The leading conflicts [inaudible] and domestic violence prevention initiative for professional athletes. He is also the former associate director of the First Gender Violence Prevention Program in the United States Marine Corps. In 1999, Hurt was the recipient of the Equity Green Public Service Fellowship, an award given to ambitious young Africans devoted to creating social change in their communities. Over the past decade, he has lectured at more than 100 college campuses and trained thousands of young men and women on issues related to gender, race, sex, violence, music, and the visual media. Y’all give it up big time for Byron Hurt.
[applause]
BH: Thank you. Thank you. I don’t get no music?
[laughter]
BH: Thank you. First, I just wanna thank everybody who put this event together. It’s just really a privilege and an honor to be able to make a film and then actually have people come out and watch it. You know, outside of your grandmother, cousins, relatives, and things like that. So, it really is a privilege to be an independent filmmaker who has an audience. So, I wanna thank Kimberlie for putting the wheels in motion, everybody at WILL-TV, everybody at the Youth Media Workshop. You know, I had an opportunity to actually sit down and break ground with everybody involved in the organization this afternoon, and we had a really good, interesting conversation. And I’m just very impressed with the workshop, the type of things that they are doing, all of the young students who are part of it are doing. And I hope that you take full advantage of the opportunities and resources that you have in front of you because there are people, you know, here who are really, really looking out for you and looking out for your future and want you to be successful. So, I’m proud to see what’s going on. I wish I’d had this type of opportunity back in high school, you know, people working on cameras, and you know, working on television sets. That’s a really big thing. So, you are to be commended for your work in reaching out to the young people here in this community. That’s a big thing. So, thank you very much for doing that.
[applause]
BH: And this whole thing was initiated at a conference. This whole idea of having this event was initiated at a conference in Washington, D.C., and I was approached and I was given one of these sweatshirts right on the spot, and a folder and information about this organization. And I was told that this event was gonna happen. So, thank you all for coming out. I just want to give you a little background about this particular film. Before I do that, I also want to thank Aisha Durham, too, for bringing me out to dinner tonight with her crew. I had ahi tuna, and it was incredible. It was incredible.
[laughter]
BH: It was incredible. So, anyway, about the film. This is a film that took 6 years to make. I actually conceptualized this film in 1997, after I finished my film, I Am a Man: Black Masculinity in American, but it took me several years before I could muster up the courage to actually commit to the idea of making the film and commit to the serious nature of such an endeavor. I started working on the film, trying to raise money in 2000, and finished the film on January 6, 2006. And the film premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, and my life has not been the same ever since. I’ve been on the road, all over the country, showing this film. And this film is really getting people to talk, which is exactly what I intended this film to do. I wanted to make a film that was going to be – oh, my, I didn’t realize this microphone was in my neck.
[laughter]
BH: I wanted to make a film that was going to be critical, you know, that was gonna make people look at hip-hop from a different lens and listen to hip-hop with a different ear. And so, that being said, you know, I was inspired by a filmmaker named Marlon Riggs Has anybody heard of Marlon Riggs anybody in this room?
Female: Yes.
[applause]
BH: An exceptional filmmaker. If you have not heard of him, you know, I [inaudible] encouraging to find his work. He has a film that’s called Ethnic Notions, Color Adjustment, Black Is, Black Ain’t, Tongues Untied. He was a brilliant and courageous filmmaker, and he questioned things like race, racial identity, gender identity. He raised issues around homophobia. And, you know, he was a really courageous filmmaker, and I sat and I watched his work as a college student. And I said, “Wow! I really wanna—I wish I could have that kind of an impact on some person, on a young person,” because he completely changed the way I view myself and how I viewed the world, through his films. So, if I could do that for some young person or for any person here tonight, then I feel fulfilled. So, thank you very much. I look forward to the conversation, which to me is the most important part of this film, is the conversation that takes place afterwards. If you want more information about me or the film, you can go to my website, . You can get more information about me and the film. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
[applause]
[hip-hop music]
Will Patterson: He has contributed to the local hip-hop scene and [inaudible] through DJ in singing, producing and organizing. As president of UC Hip-Hop Congress in 2003 and 2004, he’s helped organize one of the largest hip-hop awareness weeks on campus, which included [inaudible] still going strong through the organization. In a space where the campus and local communities all are separated, he tries to stay in touch with both, and he has had the benefit of working with a wide range of people. He has become the DJ for many local hip-hop bands, and is happy to share his [inaudible] as DJ Lim.
[applause]
Will Patterson: Twick G [inaudible] to talk about it [inaudible] want to hear. I don’t have any written bio of him, but I’ve known him for quite some time. And actually I read [inaudible] aware there’s a [inaudible] when I met him, [inaudible] we were doing a piece on hip-hop and we were doing empowering pieces in the public schools. He was one of the artists at that time that actually stood up [inaudible] in the house, he [inaudible] and did their thing. So, I’ve been [inaudible] for quite some time [inaudible] what he’s interested in, what he talks about Twick G. Y’all give it up for him.
[applause]
Will Patterson: [inaudible] is Gabriel Ceaser. Gabby for short. Gabby is the producer/director and a researcher in the youth media workshop. Gabby is a freshman at Central High School and happens to be a dope MC herself as well as hip-hop. Gabby has produced the documentary, More Than a Bus Line, desegregating Champaign public schools. Y’all give it up for Gabby.
[applause]
Will Patterson: [inaudible] Aisha Durham is co-editor of [inaudible] girls make some noise for hip-hop feminism [inaudible] Durham [inaudible] candidate in the Institute of Communications Research [inaudible] fellow at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. She holds a degree in Journalism and Mass Communications. Other than completing her dissertation on hip-hop feminism, Durham volunteers [inaudible] So Hot program in the Champaign Boys’ and Girls’ Club [inaudible] hip-hop to empower Black girls of all ages. Y’all give it up for Aisha.
[applause]
Will Patterson: My man, sitting next to Aisha, Brian Mitchell is producer/director and researcher in the [inaudible] workshop. Brian is a junior at Urbana High School and happens to love hip-hop culture. Brian’s first film [inaudible] co-producer/director, and researcher is entitled And the Beat Goes On: The Spirit and Legacy of the Douglass Center Drum Corps. Y’all give it up for a man.
[applause]
Will Patterson: [inaudible] Sarah. You know, I served on the panels with her [inaudible] discussion is a powerhouse in her game. Sarah Kaplan is an assistant professor in African-American Studies. Dr. Kaplan received her PhD in Ethnic Studies from the University of California – Berkeley. Dr. Kaplan researched teaching focuses on African-American [inaudible] literature and cultures and race, gender, and sexuality. Her solid work has appeared in [inaudible] magazine and Black Women: Gender and Family. She is presently working on a book that examines the material and [inaudible] significance of a slave [inaudible] for contemporary political theory [inaudible] reproduction and freedom. Dr. Kaplan’s other activities include political work around welfare rights, prison evolution, and racial justice in higher education. Y’all give it up for Dr. Sarah Kaplan.
[applause]
Will Patterson: Alright. Are these mics alright? Can y’all hear pretty good? Alright, Byron, let’s start off with you. You mentioned watching the videos. Was one of the videos [inaudible] and the content of those videos inspired you to make this film. Was that the only instance that encouraged you to move forward with this project, or was it more of a long-term view of your work and what you were discovering in working with young people?
Byron Hurt: Well, the answer to that question is yes, absolutely. I could not have made this film if I did not begin learning about gender issues when I graduated from college at Northeastern University in Boston. I was pretty much like any other typical guy, you know? I grew up as a jock. I went to college. Started playing college football. I pledged a fraternity. So, I was very much sort of like immersed into male culture. And then, when I graduated, [inaudible] film, I went to a program called The Mentors and Violence Prevention Program, and that program changed my life. It just changed the way I saw myself in the world. It made me question the way that I had been raised as a guy, to not consider things like sexism and men’s violence against women, not to really question the way that I had been socialized as a man, to handle conflict, you know. I thought about all of the different fights that I had been in as a young dude, you know, growing up, you know, fighting against guys for very stupid reasons, sexist reasons, and not being capable of backing down from competition because I was afraid of what my boys would think about me if I, you know, tried to work things out peacefully or whatever. And so, you know, learning about gender issues helped inform me to make this film. I would not have had the language to make this film had I not started to learn about things like masculine identity, sexism, misogyny, which is something I had heard of before, but it wasn’t something I really knew or understood about. I didn’t know what it meant. You know, like misogyny means the hatred of women. So, like, these were all new things that I was learning as a dude. And, of course, I had women in my life who had challenged me about my own sexism and my own behaviors and things like that, but it wasn’t until like a guy started to challenge me about these things that I really opened my mind up to listen. And then, everything else that anybody had told me started to make sense with me. You know? So, I started to learn about all the things that women have to go through on a daily basis to protect themselves from being raped or sexually assaulted. You know, I started to learn about things like battering and sexual harassment and all of these different things that were sort of new to me. And so, as I started to learn more about these things, it really changed the way I listened to hip-hop. You know? I got to a point where I could no longer—I knew what I was listening to was not cool. I knew that, you know, us guys call women bitches and whores—was a problem. You know, and I realized that I had become really desensitized to the level of sexism and misogyny. I would see ‘em all the time. And then, I began to think—you know, question things like homophobia. So, all those things led to me making this film. And, you know, I’ve said this a number of different times a day. You know, it did take courage to make this movie, man. It took a lot of courage, you know, because at the time that I was really seriously thinking about making this film, it was around the time when anyone who said anything negative about hip-hop, they were considered a hater. You know, he was considered somebody who was, you know, doing something that was against the culture, or you were trying to shut the culture down. You know, all those kind of ridiculous things. And, you know, I say this, I made this film because I love the hip-hop culture. I made this film because I want to make hip-hop culture better, you know what I’m saying, that it is? Niles (sp?) came up with CD, Hip-Hop Is Dead. You know? I want this film and the criticism that comes out of all of this to breathe life into hip-hop. You know what I’m saying? Because that’s what hip-hop is, and hip-hop has so much potential. Hip-hop has so much power. But, you know, we have to begin to challenge and be critical of the things that are holding hip-hop back. So, there you go. Thank you.
Will Patterson: And this is for the panelists overall, and I’d like for each one of you to comment on this. When did hip-hop first touch your life? You can chime in at any rotation. It doesn’t matter.
Sarah Kaplan: I think I had to have been in like, what?, 7th grade, 8th grade. And my first, you know, my first serious crush Dubby Brash[chuckle] and you know, my first real fashion item was Coca-Cola [inaudible] shirts, and we called ourselves the Coca-Cola Crew, right? Like, that was, you know, [inaudible[ hip-hop generation in a real way. I don’t remember when hip-hop didn’t touch my life. Like, that was my introduction to popular culture, was hip-hop. And that’s, I think, you know, one of the things that makes this a really key moment, finally a generation of activists and thinkers and, you know, cultural producers are coming of age, who have never been outside of hip-hop, to be able to stage certain kinds of critiques of our own, you know?
Male: Probably when I was in, like, 3rd or 4th grade, when I was listening to—what was it? [inaudible] harmony with my dad. We were riding down the street, and right there I just—I was loving that hip-hop.
Aisha: Well, I grew up with a brother who was a DJ, and my uncle was a DJ. So, me and my brother, living in a project, we got one room, bunk beds, and all around the floor are crates. So, I found myself, when he was out of the bedroom, digging in the crates. So, I was immersed in hip-hop culture from a very early age. And I guess I learned different ways of how to express myself through hip-hop. One of those ways was in writing. All of the guys—because my brother had the equipment—would come over to the house, and they would all, like, practice around. So, I’m like, I think I could do that, too. I write poetry. So, one of the ways that I began to express myself was through poetry. So, I guess in that way, I’m still writing. I’m still writing about hip-hop. I’m still writing about my life immersed in it. So, that’s my relationship to hip-hop. I think I started listening to hip-hop after 5th grade. I started. I started listening to Eminem, and people were telling me that his lyrics weren’t good and all that stuff. And it just made me want to listen to it more. And after I started listening to it, I started writing my own music, and he inspired me to write.
BRIAN MITCHELL: [inaudible] I’m a little bit younger, but I think I listened [inaudible] this group called [inaudible]. I don’t know if y’all know about [inaudible] real fast, right there, so that’s what [inaudible] I know my groups [inaudible] you know, Jewish group, Jungle Brothers, all that. Native songs [inaudible]
[laughter]
Will Patterson: It’s very interesting, and I wanted to really find some commonality in terms of the spirit of hip-hop culture. There’s instances where [inaudible] particular ways, which imposes the next question. I [inaudible] the audience to think about my [inaudible] students in my class talk about this often—Is what we’re really seeing and depicted in the film and even what we’re hearing on the radio really hip-hop? When we start to get in this truth instance and the spirit of it, is what we’re listening – or, are we seeing and hearing something else, and what is that?
TWICK G: Me personally, what we’re seeing right now is just corporation took all this product, you know what I’m saying? And everything influenced by corporation right now is moved by sex, drugs, murder. That’s exactly [inaudible] period, point blank. That’s what this country is based on [inaudible] you know what I’m talking about? But basically it looked like it’s a product right now. It’s advertised as a product, but the sex [inaudible] everything that’s flashy, glamour. So, that’s what hip-hop is today. To me, at first, when I listened to it, it was something that gravitated to my spirit. It made me feel good. You know what I’m saying? Early in the morning, I’m cleaning up or something on a Sunday, or sleeping, I’m doing the whole rituals of the house with the chores or something you don’t do today [inaudible] household got chores today, but that’s what it takes me back to, that good feeling. So, that’s the essence for me.
Aisha: Hip-hop to me is just all the same. They talk about the same stuff. And I think that you can make rhymes without talking about killing and all that stuff. And I write music, and it’s not always, like, about bad things. I could write about, you know, doing positive—but I know people wouldn’t like that as much.
BH: Well, I just think that, you know, is what we’re listening to on our radio real hip-hop? I think it all depends on who you talk to. You know, I think that for some people, this is what they consider to be real hip-hop, what’s being played in the mainstream. You know, what’s out in circulation on mix tapes, you know, what’s out on the internet is really hip-hop. I think that what we’re starting to see now, we’re starting to see, like, multi generations of hip-hop heads, people who listen to hip-hop. So, what constitutes, like, real hip-hop to me may not be real hip-hop to somebody who is 17, you know, or 15 years old. You know what I mean? Real hip-hop to me may not be real hip-hop to somebody who’s 47. You know what I mean? Or, you know, almost 50 now. So, I think it really depends on who you talk to. But, you know, one thing that, you know, everybody should know is that hip-hop is nuance. You know what I’m saying? It’s way more nuance and complicated than even my film gets to. You know what I mean? And I think that’s one of the things that is overlooked in rap music, hip-hop culture, are the nuances, the hip-hop that makes hip-hop so brilliant—you know what I’m saying?—so intriguing, so fascinating, so dope, so hot, so undeniably Black and Latino. You know what I’m saying? And so hard. So, what is hip-hop depends on who you’re talking to. I think those of us who are older, who have a reference point, you know, from where hip-hop started and have seen over these various incarnations of hip-hop, I think that we have an affinity or a love for what was once a lot more vibrant and diverse than what we see today.
AISHA DURHAM: Well, it is hip-hop. It’s an other version of hip-hop, but it is hip-hop. I mean, so do I stay because I listened to the radio in ’87, ’85? It was still listening to the radio, so it was still marketed. So, to suggest that what we’re looking at now is just by corporations, it was by corporations then. If you weren’t living in the South Bronx in the ‘70’s, then you listened to it through mass media. So, in that way, it was still and always has been a part of the capitalist system. So, I wanna keep it within that framework. But also I wanna suggest that, I mean, it’s not, you know, the see-all (word?) version or a record company who’s calling me a whore. It’s when I’m walking down the street, when somebody is like, “Yo, shorty, hey, huh?” And they’re calling me a whore. And that’s that dude—I see that dude. So, I’m not blaming it on some abstract person; I’m blaming that on the person who’s directing that violence, that verbal, psychic, and physical violence toward me. So, that’s another aspect of hip-hop. But, yeah, that’s a version of it. We can say that that’s like deteriorating our culture and our community as a whole because of the way in which corporations have owned the conversation of hip-hop. Because there was so much multiplicity back in the day, that we don’t have that today. But I think we still have to engage with it, whether we think it’s real or not. It exists and it’s hurting people.
BRIAN MITCHELL: This is more of a question. Like, who can determine what hip-hop is? So, I can’t determine because hip-hop was something different back in the day than it is now. So, hip-hop to me would be more what I listen to at the moment than what was in the past.
SARA CLARK KAPLAN: You know, not to sound like, you know, a nerd here, but I think one of the things that we have to know is that cultures develop; they evolve. The idea that we can sort of choose a moment and decide that there’s like this stagnant, authentic culture, whether it’s hip-hop or whether it’s, you know, Western civilization, or whether it’s like the mating rituals of, you know, x-people that we learn about in whatever kind of, you know, anthropology class we take. But the fact is that all cultures evolve and change. And so, when we recognize that hip-hop, like any other culture, evolves and changes, then we actually have the capacity to take responsibility for the ways in which it evolves and changes. It’s not something that we can sort of disavow or say, “Oh, that’s something over there; we have no control over it. It’s just [inaudible] channels, you know, [inaudible].” But it’s a culture, and we’re all part of producing culture. We’re all part of, you know, reproducing and of spreading it, of choosing what directions it goes in. And it’s not any more real or less real; it’s just different. I mean, and this goes back before hip-hop. I mean, the arguments that we’re having now about the sexism and the misogyny in hip-hop, and this doesn’t make it better or worse. But this is the same kinds of problems people had with Jelly Roll Morton. You know, incredibly misogynist lyrics. This is the problems we have with Toasting, which is, you know, early Black [inaudible] culture, right? It goes back to the beginning of the century. These are long-standing issues of patriarchy and misogyny that need to be addressed, we being cultural [inaudible] as they change and as they evolve.
Will Patterson: It’s interesting that with each one of you—talks about the evolution of the culture and that what we’re seeing is still hip-hop in its current state. How would we begin defining it as something else, and I pose that question because we know there’s been corporate involvement since day one. And we know that your film demonstrated and there was a discussion about, “We can’t get record deals because they’re not signing us.” And so, we see the hand wielding how the culture evolves. And so, the question becomes is, are we still seeing true, authentic culture, and is it still [inaudible]? And that’s why I continue to pose that question and challenge you on that, because [inaudible] do the young people start introducing something else within the context and the frame of the original spirit of hip-hop culture in order to get out of this market, if you will?
BH: Well, again, your question—I think that there are people watching; we just don’t hear a whole lot of them. You know, I just don’t think we see enough of them. I don’t think we hear enough of them. I don’t think they get—I don’t think the culture supports them enough. I think about Lupe Fiasco, whose CDs [inaudible] right now, you know, and I’m listening to—and I just think about Shy Town. So, you know, I just think about, you know, other artists, you know, that do exist. They’re out there. There are these, you know, alternative visions of people who are bringing something different to the game, but they’re just not supported in the corporate structure. You know, but they are supported by people who are feeling them, you know, who are fans of them and their music and their artistry and things like that. But one thing I wanted to say is that this film is about manhood and hip-hop, right? But I think it’s much—it’s about something much more than that. It’s about, like, manhood in American culture. It’s about patriarchy. It’s about the collision of, like, hyper aggression and sexism, misogyny, and capitalism, and materialism. It’s like all of these things that are colliding in American culture, that makes hip-hop so viable, that it makes hip-hop so saleable to our large, mainstream audience. And that’s one thing that I – you know, I want people to know and acknowledge. Like, we’re having this conversation about hip-hop, but really this conversation needs to be broadened out to discuss manhood, masculinity, masculine identity, what it means to be a man, how you and how you and how you have been socialized and conditioned to see maleness in American culture. You know what I mean? And the ways in which we have accepted and been complicit about our socialization process and how a lot of us, you know, some of us resisted and rejected by how we tend to cosign things like sexism and misogyny by our silence, and because we don’t stand up against it. We don’t speak out about violence against women and things like. That contributes to making hip-hop so – such a, like, desensitized art form, you know what I mean? So, I think that’s, like, what we have—we have to get at some of those things to have a real, honest discussion about American culture, and then talk about hip-hop within American culture. So, I think that’s the real heart of the conversation. You know what I mean? And for a lot of guys, you know, I think that, you know, we have been very reluctant, and we get very defensive whenever the issue of, like, misogyny comes up in hip-hop. You know, we tend to shut down. We get defensive. We don’t wanna hear it. You know, we think that we’re being attacked. You know, but truthfully, we as men are also affected by all of these things in negative ways, you know? And there are so many different ways that I could—like, you know, I don’t wanna talk too long. But there are so many different ways that we are negatively affected by sexism and by hyper aggression and homophobia. You know what I mean? So, we have to get at that, and that is the conversation I want to start with this film. You know what I mean? So the young brother on the street, who’s locked into a confrontation and he feels like there’s no way out from that confrontation, because in order for him to be a man, he has to take his competition head on and pull out his gun or pull out his knife, or pull his fists out or whatever, and sort of defend his man-ness. You know what I’m saying? [chuckle] You know what I’m saying? His maleness, or you know, for the young guy who is sitting in a car, and he’s hearing guys talk about women, calling them, you know, bitches and whores. And he knows that it’s not right, but he’s afraid to confront it because that’s not what guys are supposed to do. We’re supposed to go along with it. We’re supposed to participate in it. That’s where we have to break down. You know? And I think about Tim Hardiway’s (sp?) comments, you know, he talked about hate and gay people, you know? And then, having to go to the hospital on the same day that Tim Haridway (sp?) made those very homophobic statements, and have interactions with a gay nurse who was taking care of my father, who was very, very ill, and having to reconcile, like, my – you know, whatever my attitudes are about homosexuality and how I feel about that. You know? And whether or not this person is capable of being a nurturing person to my father, and being that person to my father. You know? So, it’s like all these things have to be put into question. And that is what I wanted my film to do, and that’s what I want every single guy—I’m speaking for the guys, and the women can speak, you know, to the women or you know, everybody. But I really wanna make my appeal to guys. Because I know that there are a lot of young men in this room who have been affected by patriarchy, in negative ways. I’m sure that there are a lot of guys in this room who maybe grew up in a home and saw their mother being abused by their father or disrespected by their father, and they were deeply hurt by it. It had a really negative impact on them. You know what I mean? There are a lot of young boys and men out here who know that whatever they’re seeing in the music and in music videos, they know is wrong, but we cosign, or we laugh, you know, when we see images that, you know, are not—they’re not really funny, but we laugh because it taps into something that we believe. You know? So, like, we gotta start challenging this, and we gotta start educating young boys to reject this. Because that’s the only way that this is gonna change. Young boys have to be educated that it’s okay to break outside of their box and be who we really are, and not feel like we have to perform a certain kind of manhood to the world around us. And that’s what I’m talking about, from Ludicrus to George W. Bush.
Will Patterson: I wanna take time to open up the Q & A. We’re gonna be posing questions. We have a microphone right here, so you may start lining up. And we have a panel who are considered experts on this topic. And so, we don’t wanna take—or, at least I don’t wanna take too much time [inaudible] my questions. I’d like for you to be able to provide and jump in on this dialogue. I would like to ask our young folks on the panel: Is there anything that you’re seeing in hip-hop right now that upsets you?
BRIAN MITCHELL: Yes, but at the same time, I don’t really think about it because I [inaudible] my place. You know? I mean, I’m only one person. So, me opposing it, okay; I’m just me. What can I do about it? Who am I so special that I’m gonna stop it? So, yeah, I mean, a male calling a woman a bitch is like a thing that I was raised never to do. I mean, I figure if a man calls a woman a bitch, I put myself in that picture, and that’s like my mother. How would I feel if somebody called my mother a bitch? And I love my mom.
[laughter]
BRIAN MITCHELL: I do. And if somebody would’ve called my mama a bitch, I would lick ‘em. So, I mean, that’s one of my biggest pet peaves right there. So, but I’m only one person. There ain’t much I can do, too, I mean stop it.
BH: Well, I just gotta say real quickly that I’m one person, too. You know what I’m saying? And before I made this film, I didn’t know anybody in the rap industry. You know what I mean? I had zero money. All I had was an idea and a vision, and I was tired of talking to my boys about this. Like, I was tired of being the only dude in the car, like, asking question, like, “You, what’s up with this?” You know what I mean? And so, you know, and I’m not trying to, you know, put myself on a pedestal. I’m just responding to your point that you’re just one guy. But, you know, you’re up on this panel for a reason. And you’re up on this panel because you’re a smart person. You know what I mean? I’m sure that people look up to you and respect you and think that, you know, you’re a cool dude. Right? And I’m sure that if you took an extra step and make a challenge, you know, to some of your friends or some of your boys who been calling them bitches, maybe they’ve never had one of their friends, you know, do something like that before. And so, maybe you know, the fact that you question it might make somebody else in your group question it too. You know? So, I think this is all about like giving ourselves the space to, like, voice our opinions. You know what I’m saying? And make our feelings known. So, I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that. I think a lot of people [inaudible] very similar, you know, who just feel like they can’t do anything. But you can do something, you know? You know, when I first started doing this, honestly I was very reluctant to do it. You know what I’m saying? I was reluctant because I was afraid of what my boys were gonna say about me. I was afraid of being ridiculed by my fraternity brothers. I was in Omega Psi Phi Fraternity. You know? Which had its own issues and its own problems in terms of this hyper masculine identity. You know? But, you know, something or somebody gave me the courage, you know, to do it. And I just want everybody else to feel like, you know, you have the courage to do something, because we all do. Now, I can actually stand up here with confidence and say violence against women is whack. Guys who call women bitches or whores are whack. You know what I’m saying? They don’t—they don’t, you know, command my respect. They’re not men, in my opinion. You know what I mean? So, I think that’s the message that we need to be sending, and it needs to be bright, clear messages. And, you know, for sure a young man who – you may be taking a stand, will be very, very moved by that.
TWICK G: Me personally, like 2 years ago, man, this dude right here was something else [inaudible] every b-i-t-c-h [inaudible] shoot you [inaudible] before 2 years ago. You know what I’m saying? But I feel like I’ve been hearing [inaudible] for a reason, there for a purpose, we all gotta [inaudible] so the man upstairs or the mother upstairs scared the mess out of me 2 years ago, that made me change my train of thought, made me reevaluate myself and reprogram myself. You know what I’m saying? So, now I got project coming up called “What a Difference a Day Makes.” And on that project, I gotta song on there that made my grandma cry. Now, 2 years ago, “MF for this, MF for that, shoot, bang, bang.” I’m ashamed of that music, but that music was me. I was proud [inaudible] of my upbringing. I was raised and what [inaudible] and what brainwash means. You know what I’m saying? So, I ain’t ashamed of it. I accept and I embrace it. But today is a new person. Today is a new being. And I’m proud of doing things. I’m more proud of doing today, being able to speak, because I wasn’t even able to say what I’m saying to y’all right now. I [inaudible] straight up dude [inaudible] would’ve been out there or up there, you know what I’m saying? So, but that can’t change if you can’t make a change. You know what I’m saying? For me. So, it’s possible. Believe me. It’s possible.
[applause]
GABBY: Sometimes I’m like what, you know, the guys say about girls, and I don’t think it’s right. And it’s like that. And I probably won’t listen to the music, but at the same time, it’s still like, you know, if the beat is good and [inaudible] you know, listening to it. But I don’t think that the girls, if they know what the song is about, they don’t have to go to the video or, you know, the audition or whatever. I think they can, you know, say no, and then, you know, the guy won’t have anything for the video.
Will Patterson: Alright. The floor is open.
Male: This question is directed toward the filmmaker. Well, first, I really, really enjoyed it. Two questions: I thought the word [inaudible] and how that’s associated with Black masculinity was addressed clearly. And I was wondering [inaudible] you to do that, or if that’s like your next film?
[laughter]
Male: But also, [inaudible]
BH: Okay, well, thank you for your comment about the film. I basically made a decision I was [inaudible] I was interviewing whoever, that I was gonna allow them to speak freely, that I was not going to censor anything that they had to say, because, you know, hip-hop is, you know, for better or worse, it’s a very crass art form, and you know, it is what it is. So, I made a decision not to – I made a decision not to really focus in on that for making social commentary about that in the film. I focused on other aspects of masculine identity that I wanted to make certain points about in the 1 hour that I had. So, I did not [inaudible] the stuff that happened with [inaudible] who went crazy out in Los Angeles [inaudible] All that stuff happened [inaudible] and I think since then people have become a lot more hyper sensitive or hyper aware about whenever the word is used. And I’m also—I’m very conscious about the way this word is used as well. But like, again, I would want it to capture what was very real. I thought it was very real in the way that people talk and express themselves. So, that’s one thing. And then, as far as JD Kiss is concerned, he [inaudible] about 3 to 4 weeks after my interview with him, and I’d like to take credit for that.
Male: Have you noticed how the majority of people who [inaudible] conscious [inaudible] don’t use it [inaudible] start rhyming [inaudible] like that?
BH: Hmmm, I mean, I can’t say that I’ve noticed that, you know, like generally speaking. You know? I think that people would talk one way, and then, when they start rhyming, they start running about other things. But I do think that there seems to be like a consistent or series or threat of things that people would rhyme about. That’s not necessarily who they were [inaudible] you know, “I didn’t sell drugs last summer. I sold water.” You know what I’m saying? But he didn’t lie about selling water, though. You know what I’m saying? There were no lies when he was talking about how many units of, you know, Poland Spring he sold.
[laughter]
BH: You know, he was basically talking about selling drugs and having guns and stuff like that. So, I do think that, you know, people do have bought into the idea that in order to get access to record deals and money and things and status, that they have to conform to these very limiting and narrow themes. You know, that represent, you know, Black masculine identity.
Harold Watson: My name is Harold Watson [inaudible] class. I’m conflicted with like you said—it may be the whole hip-hop industry isn’t affecting everyone [inaudible] but I’m conflicted everyday with [inaudible] and, you know, with me being engaged and whatnot, my fiancé going [inaudible] and being socialized into—you know what I’m saying?—like the parties and, you know, the hip-hop things and whatnot. It’s very disrespectful in some of the images, and then, some of the guys actually, you know, portray those images. It becomes – like, I have the utmost respect for women in general as long as, you know, they have respect for themselves and whatnot. And I find it very displeasing, but that’s what I see. And is there a way that we can, like, really recuperate the female image and have the respect we used to have? You know what I’m saying? It’s really horrible, you know what I’m saying? Like I get real—you know what I’m saying?—sick of it when I see some of this stuff. You know what I’m saying? So, and when people on spring break—I saw some of the images up there. I’m just like, “Man!” You know what I’m saying? Like, this is some bullshit! You know what I’m saying? I mean, it’s a way to—you know what I’m saying?—honor the female body and a Black woman’s body is a great thing, you know what I’m saying? I love [inaudible] myself. There’s no way I’m gonna – you know what I’m saying? – allow--
END OF SIDE A
BEGINNING OF SIDE B
Male: [inaudible] You know what I’m saying? [inaudible] and really challenge my friends [inaudible] social environments.
AISHA DURHAM: I want to answer that. And, first, I just wanna say that women deserve respect because we are human beings.
[applause]
Aisha Durham: Period. With a period at the end. And what amazes me so much is when we talk about the music videos, is that both of us, me and you, are watching the same video. So, when I see a guy with, you know, a dew rag on, or like slouch down pants, I don’t think of him as a [inaudible]. But why do you think of me as a whore because of the way I look? So, it’s like this weird kind of like construction that we have in that the way somebody looks connotes the way that they behave. But at the same time, I feel that Black women don’t have that same kind of understanding and that same kind of box (sp?) about Black men. And I just—I find that, like, really distracting. And another point that I wanna make is that in terms of talking about, you know, the images – and not calling me a whore is not gonna change incest. It’s not gonna change molestation. It’s not gonna change me being prostituted. It’s not gonna change all these things that also happened before BET was playing, you know, rap city, before your MTV raps. Stuff was still going on in the Black community. So, to suggest that before, somehow we were respected, under patriarchy, that is the nature of patriarchy, that we’re already always exploited gender and sexual beings. So, we have to, like, dismantle patriarchy as well. So, we should be working on that.
[applause]
Sarah: First of all, absolutely. And I’m just gonna add one thing here. You know, the idea that, you know, we need to behave in certain kinds of ways to be respected, and that there are these ideas about respectable Black women, is just the flip side of the idea that we’re bitches and whores in g-strings, who can be used as an ATM machine. Right? These are the same ideas about patriarchy and about the ways in which Black female sexuality, in particular, Black female existence can be controlled. And I think, you know, one of the things that this film points out so brilliantly is that this is a larger issue of patriarchy. And this goes back years. You know, this goes back. Frederick Douglas writing his autobiography, talking about, you know, his poor aunt who’s getting whipped. And meanwhile, he’s gonna go beat up the slave master. He’s gonna be a man, and she’s gonna be a victim. You know? The idea that Black men have sought to gain some kind of credibility in the eyes of a White supremacist society by claiming a kind of masculinity on the backs of Black women, is nothing new. And it’s not about how women dress, and it’s not about whether they’re portrayed as whores, they’re portrayed as stay-at-home, respectable women who need to be defended by their men folk. These are all ways in which Black men seek to fight White supremacy by leaving Black women by the wayside. And that’s the problem, right? That’s what we need to take on. So, yeah.
[applause]
BH: Just so [inaudible] points, I just wanted to ask, just by a show of hands, you raised the point, what can we do? Like, what can we do to change this? And I think one of the this that we can all do is do a much better job of being allies to women. You know, just being supportive to the issues that are important to them. You know, and I say that to myself too, you know, because there are some things that [inaudible] and some things that are, you know, big issues or important issues for my wife, that I may not necessarily see that as important. You know? Or, as important. Because they don’t necessarily – they don’t really hit me the same way. You know what I mean? But it’s important for me to be open and to listen with a supportive ear. And I just wanted to see by a show of hands, how many guys here in this room have actually attended like a Take Back the Night Rally or anything like that? Anybody? Any guys? That’s actually pretty good. That’s a good number of guys who have done so.
[applause]
BH: Well, I mean, the reason why I ask that question is because I think when you attend something like that, and you’re a guy, and you sort of watched, and you become sensitized to the issue of rape and how the face of rape is, I think you get a sense of the magnitude of the problem. And I think you get a sense about the world, the real world that a lot of women are living in and under. You know? Living in a rape culture where they are constantly, constantly, constantly under assault. And it has nothing to do with hip-hop. You know, I read an article a few weeks ago in The New York Times about soldiers in Iraq who raped a 14-year-old girl and then killed her and her family, and then, burned the house down. You know, to me, you know, it’s an example of hyper aggression and misogyny colliding, you know, in a war. That is like an extreme example of hyper aggression, you know what I mean? Those things have nothing to do with hip-hop. That has a lot to do with maleness and the way that we sort of, you know, see ourselves as privileged and, you know, can just treat women anyway that we wanna treat them. So, I just think that, again, we must, as guys, begin to just humble ourselves just a little bit, you know, remove our egos and be willing to be checked.
Will Patterson: Next question?
James Wright: My name is James Wright, from [inaudible] And I’d like to first give you [inaudible] to this film, because it was very reflective. As I was sitting up there, I was kind of reflecting over things that I listen to. But I have a little brother and a nephew [inaudible] but I was riding with them [inaudible] was in the car, and my niece. And when I got in, I put my own seatbelt, and start [inaudible] windows down, so I turned the music up [inaudible] first word that came out was “bitch,” and I turned around and looked at my little niece, and she was just like, “Ohhh.” And I had turned it off, and I turned on the 105.5, and I mean, that’s the hip-hop station [inaudible], and I heard a song, it was an ACON (sp?) song, the one about, you know, they don’t wanna see us together. It was actually the song. Then right after that came on one of Snoop’s older songs with the [inaudible]. And I just [inaudible] we started listening to talk radio.
[laughter]
James Wright: And she turned around and looked at me, just like, [inaudible]. And I was like, “Look, we’re just here for the ride [inaudible].” And we was riding, and I was trying to figure out what it is we listen to, and when I thought that, I thought about the artists, one of the artists here in Champaign [inaudible] this album. And it was—what he said about his grandmother was very important because in that song he talked about—it seemed like he was talking his mother and his grandmother and about boyfriends that she had and how he was trying to be more of a man. And that made me feel good, because thinking about my situation with my older sister—and my question to you would be: When you talk to the brothers in St. Louis and you talk to – I forgot his name – Hill, over at –
BH: Steven Hill.
James Wright: Steven Hill. He directed the [inaudible] film about [inaudible] to write this. And you also talked to the young guys who were thinking about the lyrics and things like that. I’m a collector of local music, and [inaudible] music just here in Champaign. But I travel around a lot [inaudible]. And a lot of this is not saturated with some of the commercials, I guess, bullshit that you guys have been talking about, like [inaudible] and several other different artists. Like down in Mississippi where I went to school, at Tupelo College. And many artists down there who talk about problems that are happening in our neighborhoods and in our communities. And I wanna know from your standpoint, what is it that you think those artists could do in order to sway decisions, give more of a choice? And I know it’s harder to fight tv than it is to fight a man walking and selling out of his trunk, you know? But what is it—and you made the documentary about bad music, [inaudible] about good music. And with saying that, I also wanted to ask [inaudible] he doing to show his side, his new side [inaudible] poster up there with him [inaudible] you talked about, and I wanna know what it is that you’re doing to promote that.
Male: Well, right now, to promote it is I got [inaudible] stores around here, which is [inaudible] right here. This image is the dude 2 years ago. Dude. And this is today with him with his suit on. [inaudible] if you wanna call it, or whatever. You know what I’m talking about?
[laughter]
TWICK G: But as far as the propaganda, as far as my surroundings, I won’t hang around the same people. You know what I’m saying? My foundation is different. People I talk to on a day-to-day basis about this, [inaudible] bullshit, you know what I’m saying? So, just by changing my surroundings, changing the people who I relate to and I talk to on a day-to-day basis, it helps a lot. You know what I’m saying? So, just changing my company I keep basically changed everything. So—
BH: Just real quick [inaudible] the answer to that question. Like, what some of the local artists can do to get their positive music into the mainstream. I think they have to do what, you know, hip-hop artists have done in the past. They need to get their music out there, you know. They have to act in the spirit of Too Short, you know, and NWA and other artists, you know, Master P, who did whatever they needed to do to get their music out there. You know, they have to make music that is excellent music. You know what I mean? –That people want to listen to. And after they figure out specifically, you know, like really creative ways to invade the culture, the popular culture with the music. You know what I mean? I know one of the things that I tried to do with film is I tried to make a film that could be on BET or MTV. You know, I wanted to make a film that was very smart, very intelligent, but also very, very accessible, and also like edited and cut in a way that was gonna hold people’s interests from beginning to end. And I just think that, you know, those type of things can be done in hip-hop as well. And the internet is a major tool right now. My Space and all kinds of, like, you know, like, you know, avenues that people are using to get their music out there. So, I think that’s what has to happen. And I also think that the tide is changing. I think people are getting real tired of the same old same old that they’re hearing in the mainstream. And I think that they’re wanting something different. And they’re wanting something new and fresh. So, I see there being a market for it, like, very soon, because a lot of people are having conversations just like this.
Will Patterson: Thanks. Next question.
[ed.note: Brief break/pause in taping at this point, followed by continued interview.] CONVERSATION ABOUT USE OF THE WORD NIGGER
BH: Is that a question for me? Anybody else wanna take a stab at that?
BRIAN MITCHELL: Yeah. Well, today we actually had a discussion in class about that, the whole [inaudible] we broke it down, and [inaudible] question, and an ignorant person as well. And I came up with a question for the teacher that she couldn’t answer. So, I said anybody could be a nigger. I mean, I said she could be a nigger if she really wanted to be.
[laughter]
BRAIN MITCHELL: So, I mean, but it’s true. I mean, it doesn’t—if you break the word down, it has nothing to do with race. But it is there for Black people. I don’t know why. It’s just there. So, --
Will Patterson: Are you sure you wanna take a stab at that?
Aisha Durham: My whole thing is, the point of the matter is, okay you use the word, you don’t use the word. The social conditions or economic conditions or political conditions, all people of African descent in this country are the same. So, I’m invested in not debating about whether we should use the word nigger or not; I’m debating whether we should have welfare reform or not. You know? I wanna debate whether, you know, we’re talking about, you know, new HIV-AIDS cases. I wanna talk about the prison industrial complex. Those are the things that are really affecting the everyday lives of people. I’m not negating that you shouldn’t talk about it, but a lot of our discussions get kind of pigeon-holed in terms of talking about, “I don’t call this person a bitch. I don’t call this person a whore. I don’t call this person a nigger.” And there are so many other, more complex, sophisticated things that are happening to us, like everyday. And I, myself, would rather spend much more time talking about those types of issues that affect our everyday life, than kind of the semantics of, “If I don’t use this word, then my life would be better.” Because, my life, I mean, my life wouldn’t necessarily be better if I wasn’t called a whore. You know? My life wouldn’t necessarily be better if I wasn’t called a nigger. My life would be better if I had the quality of life to live as a human being in this country. So, that’s my opinion.
[applause]
BH: I agree with Aisha. But, I also think that, you know, there’s a starting point for everyone. You know? And people have to start or ignite people’s consciousness right where they are, you know? So, for a lot of people, their consciousness about race issues, about class issues, about gender issues, whatever, might begin with that conversation about the word nigger. You know what I mean? And I think that, you know, we all have that starting point, you know? And I know I had a conversation with [inaudible] one time and I asked her the question about how do you reach people with, you know, these big ideas, these very complex ideas, you know, how do you reach people where they are? How do you reach the average person on the street, you know, who doesn’t really think about these issues?
Aisha Durham: Yeah, but people do things --
BH: Well, I’m not saying that they—
Aisha Durham: If you can’t pay your bills—
BH: No, no—
Aisha Durham: You’re thinking about when you are not able to work because you got a welfare check. You are thinking about welfare reform. When, you know, you have different [inaudible] you are thinking about the prison industrial complex. So, it’s not to suggest that average people, you know, they’re not thinking critically about this. It’s just that the conversation itself, when it becomes something else, it becomes, you know, about a nigger or a whore.
BH: Right.
Aisha Durham: And it’s much more complex than that. So, it’s on all of us to force ourselves to have these more engaged conversations, to be able to connect, you know, what she’s saying in terms of a nigger—to racism.
BH: No, I’m not disagreeing with you.
Aisha Durham: Yeah.
BH: I hear you. [chuckle] I’m agreeing, but I’m saying that everybody does have a starting point. And I think that sometimes people may not be thinking about the larger social structures all the time. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, I think we have to get people moving in that direction. You know what I mean?
Aisha Durham: But I wanna suggest that they are, because they’re living it. I think that’s the conception that we have, that some people, and especially some of our educated folk, have about, you know, average people, ordinary people. That’s my opinion. You know, everybody else except us has—
BH: That’s not what I mean.
Aisha Durham: Okay, I’m just—
BH: Like I’m not saying that people are not thinking critically. I think people are questioning—
Aisha Durham: Right.
BH: --their reality in the lives that they are living—
Aisha Durham: Right.
BH: And they’re questioning, you know, their place in the world, their social station in life and all those different things. But I do think that if you do talk to the average cat on the street, they may not even begin to have—they may not be able to like break down patriarchy. You know what I’m saying? They may not be able to like—that’s not their starting point. You know what I’m saying?
Aisha Durham: The word may not be their starting point.
BH: Okay, the word, right. But I think a lot of times they have to be able to take—like, it has to be a journey for people. You know what I mean?
Aisha Durham: [inaudible:crosstalk] they live in a capitalist society?
BH: Well, --
Aisha Durham: You think women who live in a sexist society don’t know that they live in a sexist—
BH: I don’t think that people always are able to put it in those terms, though, ‘cause I was poor. You know what I’m saying? And when I was poor, and I was eating government cheese, I wasn’t thinking about capitalism.
Aisha Durham: Yeah, I was thinking about [inaudible:crosstalk] so much and I got nothing. That is [inaudible:crosstalk]
Will Patterson: [inaudible] the two of you [inaudible] We’ll move towards [inaudible] to the culture. I wanna get two more questions in before we have to shut [inaudible] so, right here [inaudible]
Female: My name [inaudible name] and I just wanted to say that was great. I just thought it was interesting that none of the men that came up here addressed the idea of homophobia [inaudible] and I just [inaudible] interesting, you know, we gotta give the guys the chance to come up here and ask the question about that. But I guess [inaudible] like anybody else. I was riding in the car with my brother, you know, and he’s [inaudible] and he said, “[inaudible] did you know [inaudible]?” And he said, “Oh, man, this is great shit.” And I said, “[inaudible] his father.” And he said, “Nah, [inaudible]” He took a part of the quote and you know, he twisted it to something else. And, you know, I just wanted to, you know, get—hear more from the men like that idea of homophobia in the lyrics and maybe, Twist G, I wanted to know what you thought about it. Because even the [inaudible] rapper, he said he found it, you know, harder to put the music out there once he came out, you know, as a gay male. And I just wanted to know when you were speaking with some of the people about homophobia in rap music, in hip-hop, why you believe that it’s so? Why do they, like, say it’s so taboo? What is it, you know, that made it, you know, not acceptable, you know? And, like even with the gentleman—how do you think women classify themselves, and there were, like, snickers in the crowd. And, you know, and I was just wondering, you know, where does that type of stuff come from? You know, how do [inaudible] like that get formed and why can’t Black men address homophobia and still be masculine? Why do you feel like a piece of your masculinity is taken away once you say something like that?
BH: Wow! Good question. Good question, and I’m glad you raised it because you’re right; it has not been a large part of the conversation. And I included it in the film for a reason, you know, and that was to have a conversation that sparked dialogue. I think the issue just really makes us feel very, very uncomfortable still. You know? And I think that, you know, we express our discomfort in a lot of different ways. One could be laughter, nervous laughter. You know, some of the things that we see may sort of support our, you know, our—what already exists in our head about homosexuality and homophobia. So, I think that’s why certain people respond or not respond and not ask questions about it, because I think there’s just a lot of discomfort around that subject matter. And I think people are afraid. I mean, I think people are afraid that if they even have a conversation about homophobia or homosexuality, especially guys, that your own manhood is gonna be put into question, like your own—like, just the association between—well, just if you raise the point about homosexuality or homophobia, that people are going to—may think that you are somehow not masculine, you know, or [pause] that you are supporting—if you are supporting in any way a homosexual lifestyle, that you in fact may be also gay. You know? And I think that prevents a lot of guys from speaking out publicly about it. Because I think it’s an association thing that we’re very afraid of. So, I think that’s a big part of it.
Female: So, how did you come to the – like the type of person that you are, where you feel comfortable—
BH: Yeah.
Female: --you know, talking about the subject, so that maybe some of the gentlemen in the audience, you know, they’ll get that type of, you know, like mind rotating thing going, you know, you don’t have to be gay to talk, you know, to talk about stuff like that. It’s okay. It doesn’t [inaudible] your masculinity because, you know, people see this all the time, you know, and I’m pretty sure you’re not threatened at all with your masculinity.
BH: I’m not threatened by it, but I am aware that people may query me just because I’m raising the issues or, you may question whether or not I am gay or not. But honestly it was a process for me. Like it wasn’t just like I woke up one morning and I was able to question homophobia. You know what I’m saying? I had to really think deeply about myself. I had think deeply about, you know, my own attitudes about homosexuality, you know, and my own homophobic attitudes that exist inside me. And then, I had to really examine who I am, like, you know, I had to really just come to terms with the fact that I’m straight. I love women. You know? I’m a straight dude. And I don’t really, at this particular stage in my life, I don’t think there’s anything that’s going to change that. So, why should I care what people are gonna say about me, or how people may classify me or what kind of box people may put me in? So, the fact that I love women makes it easy for me to support women. The fact that, you know, I’m not gay makes me less threatened about other gay guys. You know what I’m saying? So, but I’m 37. If I was 17 years old and I watched this film, I probably would’ve, you know, laughed out loud myself. You know what I mean? Because I bought into many—I subscribe to many of those things because of the way that I have socialized and conditioned. So, I think that, you know, it is a journey and it is a process that a lot of young boys are gonna have to go through before they become, you know, more comfortable talking about it and dealing with it.
Sarah: Actually, I’m gonna say something before we move on—on this one. I want to clarify one thing that you just said, Byron. I don’t think, in fact, that loving women sexually, being physically attracted to women makes it easier for people to stand up for women. I mean, the fact is the long-standing political alliances between Black, gay men and Black women are honestly much stronger than a lot of the long-standing political alliances between Black straight men and Black women. So, I think that’s one thing we need to clarify. And I guess the other thing that I’d say here is, you know, I heard the laughing and I understand the discomfort, and I understand how hard these issues can be. But I think that one of the things that was most fascinating for me when watching this film was how it was okay for all of the rap artists to have the conversation about misogyny, to be called on what it means when they say bitch or when they say whore, or when they talk about this kind of hyper aggressive, hyper masculine, you know, machismo that they present. But the minute that queerness came to the table, the conversation had to end. Right? It was a completely unacceptable conversation. And there were other things in the film that might’ve made people uncomfortable, but nothing got the reaction from this audience that homosexuality did. And I guess something that really—I think about a lot as a Black queer person who loves hip-hop and loves hip-hop culture, is what does it mean that as a culture of people who have traditionally been marginalized, jailed, lynched, raped, killed, because of our supposed deviant sexuality, what does it mean that we are so many to throw those stones and to accept certain kinds of physical, economic, and psychological violence of other people, because of their so-called deviant sexuality? And how much of that—
[applause]
Sarah: How much of that is our fear about still being seen as deviant sexual objects? You know, and I look at hip-hop, and I think—you know, I found in my purse actually when I was looking for a pen, the flier from this group, this really fabulous group of Black drag kings, right? Women who dress up in drag and perform as men. And they performed a hip-hop. They performed to a range of hip-hop that goes from Fifty Cent to Dead Prez. And they love hip-hop, and they know that the hip-hop artists that they love, talk about killing them, beating them up, shooting them, right? Like, this is something really intense. And I think of hip-hop, and I feel a lot of you use hip-hop. And they say, well, because hip-hop is just like one big drag show, you know? The men dress up as supermen, and the women dress up like [inaudible] drag queen. But it is drag. So, what does it mean that on the one hand, we’re so scared of deviant sexuality at the same time as we’re performing it on BET every single day.
Will Patterson: We’ve got to stop.
[applause]
Will Patterson: [inaudible] important comments [inaudible] go ahead [inaudible] In closing the film, contextualize the idea that issues of homophobia, gender, sexuality, misogyny, need to be further explored in Black and Brown communities. In addition, hip-hop can play a crucial role in illuminating those issues, as well as ideas and practices of patriarchy that leads to social policy reform, that provides a better quality of life [inaudible]. So, we want to thank you, Byron, for the film. It’s the bomb. Sarah Kaplan, thanks for being on the panel. Brian Mitchell, your uncle’s namesake, my man, Aisha. Gabby, thank you for participating. Twist G. Make sure you check out Twist G’s listening party on March the 2nd. And “What a Difference a Day Brings,” my special guest, [inaudible] is gonna be at the [inaudible] Club, and that’s going to be starting at what?
Male: March 22nd.
Will Patterson: March 22nd.
[applause]
Will Patterson: Complete your surveys before you leave, and we want to get those before you go out the door. And there’s a table for those of you saying, “What can we do about this?” There’s a table of contents right outside the door, with a ton of information on how to get mobilized and get active around addressing these issues related to [inaudible] culture. Y’all have a good night.
END OF HIP-HOP TOWN HALL
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