That Witch Life



Episode 52: Pagan Priesthood with Lora O’BrienSun, 10/11 12:10PM ? 1:20:36SUMMARY KEYWORDSlora, priesthood, pagan, work, umm, people, candles, ireland, wax, courtney, book, bath, witch, irish, life, herb, community, wicca, places, putSPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Lora O'Brien, (Exit Music)Intro music 00:0320 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world following Magick and Spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a Witch in today's world. Courtney 00:48Hey, witches. Welcome to that witch life podcast. I'm Courtney. I'm hosting today. And I am here with Hilary, Hilary 00:55Hello Courtney 00:56and KananiKanani 00:57Hello.Courtney 00:58And it's early where we are. And so neither one of them are too happy with me at the moment because I scheduled us for a 7am recording, but it's because we have someone joining us from Ireland. And so we have to be mindful of our eight hour lag behind Ireland. And we have Lora O'Brien joining us to discuss pagan priesthood and both the living the life of a pagan priest as well as a book that she wrote about it. And Kanani is going had some candle drama this week. But it's also led her to sharing some really interesting tidbits about working with candle magic. And Hillary will be sharing some information about time, which when she first said it I thought that she was going to get all philosophical for us when she said I want to talk about time. I'm like, interesting. In terms of like,Hilary 01:46you're like, Why? Why?Courtney 01:49It's t-h-y-m-e? Hilary 01:52The herb not the thing that measures Courtney 01:55Not the concept, Hilary 01:56not the concept, Courtney 01:58which is not linear, apparently. Anyway. Um, and then when Laura is with us, we are going to play a horrifying game, which actually I don't find it horrifying. I think Lora is going to think It's horrifying. And I don't know if you too will agree or not. I think it's kind of a toss up. Um, so the meantime, how's everybody doing?Hilary 02:18Wait, I didn't sign up for a game. Courtney 02:20Well, you're in it. Now. You have to play Hilary 02:22It's seven in the morning. I don't want to play a gameCourtney 02:24It'll be 8:30 by the time we play it, so you've got time.Hilary 02:28Ah, still some bullshit.Courtney 02:31Well, anyway, you'll like it. If you don't, I don't care. So it's okay.Hilary 02:35Oh, thanks. Thanks for the support.Courtney 02:38I know I'm the best anyway. So how's everybody doing?Hilary 02:43Yeah, I'm good. It's too early for me to even just kidding. Uh, yeah, things have been pretty good. I have been as it's been getting colder here. I've been doing a lot of Bath magic. So that's been kind of nice. It's like, I love bath magic. But it was so hot over the summer. I'm like, not getting into the fucking bath. Like definitely no. So I did a nice ritual bath the other night on the equinox. And so that was really lovely. Just kind of a good way to like wash all the heavy away, you know, it's like, oh my god, there's too much I felt like so way down. And so I prepared a bath with some herbs and, and it I feel much better now. So yeah, things have been hectic but good.Courtney 03:33I need to get back into doing my Sunday cleansings I was doing a really good job of doing a ritual bath every Sunday, as a great way to start the week and I was having a lot more focus and I was feeling much more positive. And I just kind of fell off the bath wagon lalala and so now I need to get back into it. Kanani how are we doing? So you said you were taking a nap?? She's actually she said she's gonna nap during Hillary my introduction. And she'd come in when which she told us to wake her when she's ready. Wake up. talk. Kanani 04:03Ah, that's a lot.Hilary 04:08Don't pretend like you're not normally up at this hour.Kanani 04:10Actually, I'm not. Well, I am starting to wake up at this hour.Hilary 04:15Yeah, I usually get up around 6:30 or 7Kanani 04:18it's I have to since the kids have been doing the distance learning. They're not waking up at 5:30 6 o'clock in the morning anymore. So actually, usually between around 7:10 I'm rolling out of bed getting coffee and they're actually now sleeping till about 7:30. So it's actually kind of nice because I usually get about 15 to 20 minutes every morning where my husband's already left for work. And before the kids wake up where there's just peace and I can drink my coffee with no one talking to me which is amazing.Courtney 04:50You can eat ice cream for breakfast without anyone catching you and wondering why they can't eat ice cream for breakfast.Kanani 04:55Exactly. And so um every day I've tried to do like one little thing that is just something I've needed to get done. And now that I'm kind of not in my funk, and I'm able to think I'm seeing all the things that need to get done. And I am obsessed with candles, I love candles. And so I have like wall decor all throughout my house that are like the metal decor pieces that have like candle holders in them glass candle holders. And a lot of mine are. Some of mine are like kind of tall glass candle holders. And so I didn't like just little tiny tea lights in them. And so I had last year put votives in them, which is great. And it looks great. However, votives melt. And then they leave a mess inside the glass candleholder Yes. And so I was talking to Courtney on the phone. So as I'm trying to do this complicated stuff with wax and, and hot water and boiling hot water and all of these things. I was talking to her and what I decided to do was to try first I tried to scrape out with just like a butter knife the wax to see if it would just kind of pop out. And of course it didn't. Now I am going to give one tip because I have since started doing that same thing. But now before I put the votives in the glass holder, I put oil around them.Courtney 06:34Oh, so kinda like baby oil, olive oilKanani 06:37No, I use olive oil it's funny. I have vegetable oil, but for whatever reason for pretty much every use. I always use olive oil. Now I almost never use vegetable oil. But so I mean, but you could use vegetable oil but so I literally just lube up and grease all of the glass things that I put candles in there.Courtney 06:53 You said lube! (laughing)Kanani 06:54 I did! Well that's what it is I mean no reason to be cute about it. And, so, um...but I've noticed that since I've started doing that, like all everything just pops right out, like in a full piece it will pop right out. So if you're going to do that and put wax straight into a glass candle holder, that is something that you're going to want it to come out of, if you just grease it before you put the wax in even if it's like I did that for a candle that was on my altar.Courtney 07:24You You lube up you lube it up andKanani 07:30Yeah, well, and but the thing is, is you think like okay, well, that would only last a couple days, I was burning that candle for a little bit at a time for over a week. And it still popped right out when it was done. So you don't have to burn through it really quickly for that to still stay slick in the in the glass and whatever glass surface you're putting it in. So anyways, that's my first tip. Second tip was as I was talking to Courtney, and I could not dig them out with the butter knife because they were just they were too thick at the bottom and they wouldn't pop out. No this is not working. I don't have the patience for this. So I started boiling water. And I put a couple of them in the boiling in the boiling water. I had it shallow enough that the water wasn't going over. And then I was trying to pick them up with tongs. Well, the problem was first first set of problems. When I tried to pick it up with the tongs I dropped it in the water. So now the melted wax is now part of the boiling water. And so I had to fish out when I finally was able to fish out the glass. There was little bits of melted wax all over the sides. And then it was waxy boiling water inside the pan. So then I had to clean the pan I had tried again and been like, okay, you cannot drop this. So then I had another one I had gotten it out of the pan. This is how you know, by the way that my husband doesn't listen to the podcast. Because the whole time I'm telling Courtney, I'm like I'm on the verge of divorce right now. Like my husband sees this mess, he is going to just absolutely lose his mind. So he would have no idea this happened. He has no idea this happened. Courtney 09:18He catches her with a pool boy. It's just a really difficult conversation.Kanani 09:21That's a bad conversation. I eff up the kitchen with wax and he's out he's done. So I take this other one out, and I get it out of the pot. And I'm like, Ah, thank God it didn't fall in the pot. Oh no. It falls on the counter next to the pot and then pours over in between the counter and the stove.Hilary 09:42Oh, no. Oh my god,what??Kanani 09:46Like I told court that's at that point is when I told Courtney, I'm like my marriage is over at this point. I'm like, so that wasCourtney 09:51I didn't laugh at you at the time, but I was laughing inside and now I'm laughing at you.Kanani 09:54And I'm like I'm like fresh out of the bag. Now you know why? Like, I'm just no longer found. Like now this is what happened. You haveCourtney 10:01to, you have to change your identity join witness protection. Oh,Kanani 10:05it was terrible. I mean, just ever, the whole thing just everywhere. And suddenly, okay, that just happened. So then I dig out the other one. And as I was at the sink, because now I'm at the sink doing it, another one fell, that had wax mixed with hot, super hot water and spilled all over the floor. So that you absolutely, it's like you're stepping on it. Now you can feel it. It's just everywhere. So what could have been like a one hour cleaning project turned into a one hour cleaning the candle project and about three hours of cleaning up the mess of the one hour cleaning project. Oh, myCourtney 10:41Oh my God.Kanani 10:43But the trick's to...Hilary 10:44What a nightmare!Kanani 10:45Oh, it was! so that what the tricks that I did find was just put some sort of vegetable oil, olive oil, something on the inside of the glass container. And then when you are trying to get it out, it will pop out no problem. When you haven't done that. But if you just boil a little bit of water, and then you set them in the pan, just as you watch them melt. It doesn't have to be for a long time, you want to be careful, you're not breaking anything, but and then you're able to properly lift it out of the pan, and then pour it out, pour the wax out into something that's safe to pour it out into, then what I did was because then you still have that little bit of waxy residue inside, you know, because then it was just melted. And what I actually would do is I microwaved them for like 40 seconds. And then I just wiped em out with a paper paper towel. And they were perfectly clean. absolutely perfectly clean. And so likeCourtney 11:39Cool! this is like witchcraft, magical, witch magical witchcraft household tips?Kanani 11:43Yes. And so this is how you can cleanCourtney 11:45 every segment with KananiKanani 11:47Yes, this is how you can clean your glass containers and they look perfectly clean. um now I'm going to teach you how to clean up all the wax you spilled. so I had to pull the stove out from between where the stove goes and the counter. And I had to pull it out into the middle of kitchen, it was all over the side of the stove. And all over the side of the counter. Now the problem is with the side of our counter is it's unfinished wood. So I just have to wait for the day the next day because yes, my husband pulls out the stove to mop underneath the stove. Yes, he does. And so I'm going to wait for that day, because he's gonna freak out and go WHAT IS THIS!??!! because I can't do anything about that. So that's just gone. That's just the way it is. But the side of the stove, I was trying to scrape it off. And anyone who's tried to skate scrape wax knows that that's about the most obnoxious, awful unforgiving tasks that there ever was and it really is not that helpful. So I was doing that for a little bit and realize this this is not happening. And the best way that I have found because I love to spill wax. The best way to get it off is to get a hot iron. And then I take a towel that I'm happy to throw away. So don't expect to be able to save this towel. I take a towel and so what I did was I just put it on the side of the stove where there was the wax and then I just put the towel over it and then I just put the iron and iron heats up the wax and the towel absorbs the wax andCourtney 13:22 I knew that I have so many alter cloths that are just like stiff with old waxKanani 13:28 YES! and I have no you can so you can do that. I've done that with my alter cloths and it will pull the wax off of the alter cloths but it will still leave a stain. Yeah so won't be crunchy anymore and have the wax but it's still going to leave that kind of discolored stain on there. Courtney 13:46It's a love stainKanani 13:47 Yes, I have. I have you know the towel but like I said I have no idea how to get it out of the towel. So I just I find a towel I'm okay to throw away. My husband sat and did the dishes last night and stood right in front of that sink and has no idea that there was wax spilled all over the floor. I kept waiting, kept waiting for the "what's on the floor??" What's on the floor? never happened I was shocked. So it really really really does work.Hilary 14:15Another votive tip is if you if it's in a votive before you microwave it if you're if you want to if there's quite a lot in there if there's just like some residue microwave is the way to go. But if there's a quite a lot in there if you put it in the freezer for like an hour or hour and a half when you pull it out when you go to pry it it'll pop right off.Kanani 14:36Yeah, I was gonna say that's when so if it has a lot that's when I put it in the hot water to kind of melt it off from the side.Hilary 14:43Yeah, but if but if you put it in theKanani 14:44It only works if it's like a little bit of residue,Hilary 14:47right but if you put it in the freezer instead of doing it in hot water Kanani 14:51then you might not spill hot wax while in between your stove and your counterHilary 14:54that (laughing) and also, you will because like sometimes, then you're getting like you're getting the large parts of the wax out, but it's spreading around. So if you put it in the freezer for like, hour, hour and a half, if you take it out after an hour and you're in you're like, it's still soft or it's not hard enough, and it's not prying very well then try another half an hour but if you then just take like a knife and stick it between the two and pop, pop it kind of pop it out of there, there'll be some residue and but then the residue you microwave and then that will help avoid spilling wax all over your kitchens.Kanani 15:31Yes, because that was fun.Hilary 15:33But you were like god dammit, Kanani 15:34I know. But for peep so for people who may be you have wax on like a piece of carpet that you've not even tried to get out because you don't know what to do. Towel that you don't mind having to toss out when it's done Courtney 15:46The sacrificial towelKanani 15:47 and yeah, and an iron and you will be able to get that bad boy up shockingly fast. But like I said, I've burned candles for like a week. And then it will literally just pop right out. And it's still it's still moist on the sides. And you're just like this is amazing.Hilary 16:03Did you just say moist?Courtney 16:05I have someone that someone at our live recording.Kanani 16:08 I said moist and lubeCourtney 16:09 said rightly that I have the sense of humor of a 12 year old boy and I've been keeping quiet this whole conversation because everything to me sounded kind of kinky and hilarious. And so yeah,Kanani 16:19well, most things about candles are kinky and hilarious. SoCourtney 16:22I know this the living it up. I feel like we have a new segment now. It's called good like household magical tips with Kanani likeHilary 16:29I love thatKanani 16:30It should be called How Kanani cleans up the messes she makes?Hilary 16:37Yeah, that's perfect.Courtney 16:39Alright, well, let us switch gears here for a second. Hillary is going to talk to us about thyme, the herb not the concept,Hilary 16:46the herb, not the concept. So yeah, thyme is a great herb, it's also really easy to get a hold of; you can get it dried in the grocery store, it's very easy to grow. It'll do really well even if you don't have an outside space, it'll do really well on a window sill anyway, it can be it can be used for a number of different things, but kind of one of the main purposes is uhh it's really good in healing rituals, or, or to, to kind of calm yourself for sleep. It's a really comforting herb so and it also attracts it also attracts affection and kind of like people, people having a good perception of you. So it's it's it kind of just calm..I find that when I use it in spell work especially I love using it in baths because again, it smells really nice. So, so it some herbs are great, but don't smell good. So thyme is a lovely smell. And it really just calms your energy down. So I find it really to be helpful when I'm like, you know, my body doesn't feel great, or my energy is really heavy. If Yeah, if you're doing a healing ritual if you're trying to bring in like really deep sleep. And it kind of relieves that like, you know, when things get really hectic in the world and the energy gets really frantic or kind of kind of like right now frantic or like nervous. And there's that kind of underlying energy buzz that's making everyone anxious like all ofCourtney 18:24you mean the morbid sense of the morbid sense of foreboding that keeps me awake at from two to four pretty much every morning worrying and wondering about what the next 10 years are going to be like? I heard of this Hilary.. I'm not sure, but it sounds familiar.Hilary 18:36That right there, well, thyme thyme is your friend there. So you can there's a couple ways you can use it, you can actually burn it. So people do use it for smoke cleansing, it can be used for smoke cleansing, but you can burn it in the home. It's good for attracting good health for the occupants of the home for purification of the energy for getting rid of stagnant energy. It is you can also hang it you can if smoke is an issue for you. You can also hang it around your home it's just as effective that way or I've even gotten it wet and shook the water off of it around a space before and that that can work. Yeah, it's really really good for bath magic. So it can be good to help the body in in Bath rituals, but also it's also really good in bad bath rituals for bringing in a constant flow of money like kind of like thisCourtney 19:33Ooooh yaHilary 19:34bring in that money right? And then yeah, so it is used. It is often used for smoke cleansing specifically prior to ritual. So if you really if you're able to do smoke and you're doing a bath ritual you could you could use the smoke to smoke cleanse the bathroom and the bath. You could burn a little and then you could add it to the bath with Epsom salts or sea salts or anything else any other herbs that you'd like to put in there. It does, I will say that it is it makes sure if you're using it that you have like some sort of strainer over the drain, or you can put it into a I like having herbs loose in the bath but but you can also put it into like a little like cheese cheese cloth that you can tie around it or like, or like a like a thin, almost like those reusable tea bag things you can use that Courtney 20:30Yeah! I've also doubled up on paper towels before like, yeah, fold two or three of them. So and then. I mean, you have to get it. They're fragile, so they tear easily. But I found that that that works if you don't have a tea bag or other things on hand.Hilary 20:43Yeah. And if you, you know, if you wanted to, if you were like if you didn't have anything of any of those things on hand, you could take up like kind of bunch of it and stir the bathwater with it. You're not going to get as many, like as much debris that way. But yeah, it is like kind of it's Twiggy. And it has like it's pretty rough. So it's not it wouldn't be great for your pipes if you let it go down the drain. So just be mindful of that. But yeah, you can, you can like many of many herbs that are helpful for restful sleep, especially with stress. You can put it in a sachet underneath your pillow. You can also wear it so if you want to put a sprig of it in your hair or put some in your pocket, it can be good in in turning the perception people's perception of you. So if you have to go to if you have to go talk to your boss, it's like you're worried about a difficult conversation or you're trying to impress someone you can always wear some thyme. It's good for for upping people's perception. But yeah, I really I love it in in Bath Magick. It's by far my favorite favorite way to to use it that and that in smoke cleansing.Courtney 21:59thanks. Well, let's thanks for that. So we have our we have a full moon coming up in just a couple of days on the first which is I actually was this this last month I was finally able to get the recording I've been promising everybody for a while of me catching the reflection of the full moon in a bowl of water.Hilary 22:20You did it finally.Courtney 22:22I finally did it because well for a while it was just the moon was coming up way too late past my bedtime or was coming up when it was cloudy or something like that. But finally we had a clear night, and I stayed up a little past my bedtime but not too bad. And that will be available for our Patreon supporters. If you are interested in learning how to catch the reflection of the full moon this next full moon is a harvest moon. As we mentioned before, the Harvest Moon typically falls in September but at least in North America, though it's the full moon that's whatever is closest to the fall Equinox which two years out of three, it happens in September. But this year, the one closest to the fall Equinox is in October. So the September Full Moon was called the corn moon and the October the first one we have two moo two full moons in October, which is so badass. The first one is the Harvest Moon. So a really great time again to keep reaping blessings. So to you know, just basic overall abundance, blessing, good stuff energy coming with this moon and so it's I love catching the full moon reflection because then I can anoint magical tools I can sprinkle on the altar, I can use it as in the bath and it just really anytime you use Full Moon water, it ups your overall magical power. But especially especially with the Harvest Moon because that one is such an important one, you know, in the history of humanity, harvest of the full moon around the harvest was such an important one umm because it allowed us to keep working and gather more food and you know, less chance of starving so and so yeah, we have a video of that on our Patreon and it was a real labor of love because my husband took the video and he stepped in dogshit while he did it. So that is... (laughing) He did! But with that being said, we do want to thank everybody who is following us on Patreon you are making it possible for us to continue giving you the kind of witchcraft content that we love to do. We also have released on Patreon the video from our Columbia Willamette pagan pride day recording. So you can watch me have my complete and total meltdown because Hillary was making this face at me because she knows I can't say certain words. AndHilary 24:31what was what was the word that you can't say?Courtney 24:33Shut up! I'm not going there today, I can't. So remember if you want to support the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon to get access to this kind of bonus content and other goodies. And if you can't do a monthly donation, you can certainly buy us a coffee or three or pick up that witch life merchandise handmade by Kanani on Etsy and also consider becoming an episode sponsor. It's a really great way to promote your business or your event we've got thousands of witches that listen every week, or in the spirit of Pagan Priesthood, you can let your high priest priestess or Priestix know how much you appreciate them with a special message that we will read aloud on our episode. So, to find out more, go to our website . And between now and the end of September, which is you know, a couple more days, we are donating 10% of our all of our proceeds to the United Way of Central Iowa for their storm relief uh excuse me United Way of East Central Iowa for their storm relief efforts umm Natural Disasters take a long time to rebuild from and we want to make sure we're giving our support to our friends in the Midwest. And we're also supporting Habitat for Humanity of Los Angeles, who was addressing housing needs to people who are been affected by the fires when we had some bad ones up here in Oregon for sure by California's was has been dealing with them for a lot longer and really need a lot of help. So um, yeah, and if you'd like to help Oregon directly, we will have some resources on our show notes on our website. So in the meantime, are we ready for a word from our sponsor?Hilary 26:09Yes. I cannot believe it's almost Yule. You may not know this about me, but I absolutely love giving people gifts. It is genuinely one of my favorite things and what better place to get handmade, magically charged candles, incense burners or altar cloths for every witch on your holiday list, than from actual witches, making real magic and supporting a better world. If this sounds like you, then check out The Witches Resistance. The Witches Resistance was an idea born out of the anti-liquid natural gas movement, starting at an action in Tocoma Washington. They are more than just a name proceeds from their handcrafted art and spell candles help support a variety of causes, as well as their ability to go to events and actions. In addition to handcrafted candles, they offer a carefully curated selection of all your witchy needs including altar tools with everything from cauldrons to mortars and pestles engraved with pentagrams and pagan knot work. I have a list of items I cannot wait to buy for the witches in my life, and I'm a Taurus. So let's be honest, I have a list for myself too. I cannot wait to rock their amazing Witches Resistance tank top, it's already in my shopping cart, and add to my collection of spell candles. Make a witch's day or your own day while supporting a family owned magical business that is out there working hard to make the world a better place visit today and enter code THAT WITCH LIFE at checkout to receive a 10% discount for all purchases made between now and October 31 2020. Thank you to The Witch's Resistance for being an episode sponsor.Courtney 27:44As many of you may know, bath magick is a huge part of my witchcraft. Also while working full time doing this podcast and just the general stress of this pandemic among other life things; intentionally creating space for self care and relaxation has been a crucial part of my health. So you can imagine I was thrilled to discover Mystical Existence. A small family run company based out of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, mystical existence was named for proprietor Maggie's lifelong infatuation with a night sky. They have the most gorgeous things to make your bath rituals an extraordinary experience. Their soaps are made with a goat milk glycerin or olive oil base designed for and by the magically inclined, such as their Taurus soap, which is coffee scented and made with coffee grounds added for gentle exfoliation, or Zeus, which is a lemon scented pumice soap great for hard working hands. They also have Libra a true feminine soap with a floral and fruity fragrance colored pink with a little added sparkle, which is also available as a body butter. They also have a line of gorgeous bath bombs infused with essential oils and these badass mooncakes which put a total pop in your shower experience and absolutely wake you up in the morning. They also have a hard lotion bar packaged in a tin for easy travel. You could just toss it in your bag and go and a hand and body lotion called Scorpio with a dark, musky and sensuous scent. set the mood for your bathtime rituals with one of their soy wax candles with three fragrances to choose from. Subscribe to the mystical existence mailing list to be the first to know about new items. Limited Edition offerings monthly specials and sales get 15% off until November 10 by going to and enter TWLP. at checkout Mystical Existence turning your bath ritual from ordinary to extraordinary thank you to Mystical Existence for being an episode sponsor. Alright, well, we are delighted to welcome Lora O'Brien who is a teacher, author and guide native born Irish with decades of personal and professional experience in their history, heritage, archaeology, mythology and pre-Christian Irish spirituality. She is a modern Draoí, a practitioner and priest of indigenous Irish magic and spirituality. Lora has been consciously following a Pagan path since 1994. And she dedicated specifically to the Irish Goddess Morrigan in 2004. And as a co founder and Reverend legal celebrant with pagan life rights Ireland, with her partner John O'Sullivan, (An Scéalaí Beag) she runs Kanani, you should be shopping there, by the way they have everything you've ever wanted. And Irish, , an online learning environment where you can connect to the heritage culture and spirituality of pagan Ireland in an authentic, meaningful way every day. Lora has three children, a grandchild, but never enough plants in her life to keep her happy. So,Lora O'Brien 30:43Janey! if I didn't know myself, I'd be impressed. (laughing)Courtney 30:51So, um Kanani actually, you and Laura have a connection that you don't really realize now most people if they have followed me on Facebook for any period of time, or followed Lora on Facebook for any period of time know that Laura and I have had a years long battle of food like it almost what we do is we post on each other's pages, the most outrageously horrifying. Well, for some people horrifying recipes. And Lora is like no. And I'm like yeah!!Lora O'Brien 31:26for me? horrifying! for Courtney like, yeah, bring itCourtney 31:31Well this all got started like, I guess it was three years ago now. Lora had posted Lora posts things right on routinely that it's like, Why are Americans Why? And weLora O'Brien 31:43always with affectionCourtney 31:46no, it's true. But all these Yanks get on there. And they're like, "Oh Lora! it's not we don't do that. I Don't do that." And you posted this, I'm trying to remember exactly what it was. It was like a cheesecake pie made with like Fruity Pebbles or somethingLora O'Brien 32:03Yeah....something like Diabetes in a recipe. It was just it was a recipe for diabetes.Courtney 32:08It was basically injecting cholesterol directly in your arteries, and then leaving it there. And I first I was with the other Yanks going, Oh, no, I would never but then I looked at it. And I went, you know, Kanani would totally be into this pie. And so I sent her the recipe, I said do you want me to make this for Easter? She's like, umm I'm pissed you didn't make it yesterday. And I went Ok, and then I thought it was really funny. I just posted something did not expect Lora to see it. I just posted a Facebook post like Haha, when you look at one thing on someone's page, you go Eww, no, I would never and then you send it to your best friend like.. so, are we gonna? and she's like, yeah. and Lora was the first person to call in and she was like, Courtney No! Lora O'Brien 32:49Yeah, no. And in fairness, that one didn't have gelatin or Miracle Whip in as as far as I remember, Courtney!Courtney 32:58I don't think it did. No, but it was like all sugar and Kanani was totally into it and I still have yet to make it for her so I gotta dig that one up.Kanani 33:04That's like 99% of what fuels my body.Lora O'Brien 33:09Wait, does the Miracle Whip or just the cholesterol on the sugar?Kanani 33:13No, straight sugar! I don't do miracle whip. I just do straight sugar.Courtney 33:17You would do miracle whip if I made miracle whip something because you try it. Lora O'Brien 33:20Oh my goodness, Courtney. I'm still I'm actually all of our three year long battle of the of the cultures like ingredients when it comes down to like would Courtney eat this I don't know would she? (gasp) The horror show that was the and it was actually a modern recipe wasn't even something from like the 1950s or some shit but the horror of the moist like your grandmother'sHilary 33:48we have now we have now said moist on the show four times. It's too muchLora O'Brien 33:52Oh, it was like it was it was an asterisk asterisk moist. And then the next asterisks was like your grandma like grandmother used to make or no it was actually like your grandmother's but it was like mushed up hotdogs with like jelly and oh, literal nightmares. like waking up in the cold sweats and like not even like the good kind.Courtney 34:27It's bad enough but would she?? and some of the recipes to be fair, I look at them and go, I don't know if I could go that far. But it'll tell Lora it's fun for her. (ineligible) I just let her run away withLora O'Brien 34:43what about that one with the it was like molded I think that was a vintage one. In fairness. It was molded into the shape of it was like salmon jelly molded into the shape of a salmon face. With like little eyes and a mouthCourtney 34:58It was super and I love making food or like I did, I did this cheese spider for Halloween a few years ago. And it was really good because it was like cream cheese and scallions and garlic and stuff like that. But then you rolled in sesame seeds and give it little legs, and that was really, but that's why we're gonna play the game before we finish today, which is Did Courtney make it? Did Courtney eat it? Or did Courtney draw the line and you guys are all gonna have to figure that out. Because even Kanani and Hilary aren't always for itKanani 35:28they they love it when I send them videos of like things that are just essentially pure sugar. Like my favorite is the places where they use cotton candy to make burritos filled with like ice cream, and sprinkles and cookie toppings and anything else. And it's all wrapped in a giant thing of cotton candy, like 12 layers of cotton candy. I would eat that in a minute. And it just freaks them out. And I love it,Courtney 35:59the super sugary links that I post on your page, Laura, like 90% of those come directly from Kanani saying we have to go here or you have to make it for me. Yes. So anyway, let's, um, let me dig in here. And ask the first question that we asked all of our guests on our show. And that is, how did you know that you were a witch or a magical person?Lora O'Brien 36:20Hmm. Goddess came to me in a vision when I was like, 14, basically. But before before that, I suppose I mean, looking back now I was in and out of the otherworld my whole life. And when you grow up in Ireland, in a storytelling family, and you know, have any kind of real world experience, there's, there's stuff that's very, very, like, the boundaries are not always clear. So and there's like different places and different types of places. And then, you know, when you kind of catch the attention of other world entities, and your childhood gets very interesting, very fast. So there was that, but I kind of it's as weird as it sounds, I kind of view that as normal. And I at least didn't really understand that there was anything significantly kind of different, because those are the kind of stories that I would have grown up with. So my granddad was always telling me stories, and my mom was always kind of bringing me weird places, well, not weird places, but like historical or heritage places, as you know. So all of that was kind of a given within the culture, but it's only when I started, like maybe talking to people about it in my teens, and I kind of or really started kind of reading about magical and witchcraft stuff. In my later teens, that I kind of understood that, that not everybody in the world has those kind of experiences as again, as a baseline, you know. And so like, that's kind of where the magic was showing up or draíocht, as we call it in Ireland, and between different sites, entities, and events and experiences. Erm, and then, more specifically, I suppose, like I said, when I was 14, or 15, I had erm I was in third year, so I'm not exactly what age it was. Erm... in our secondary school system was we had a religion teacher who was a hippie, let's call it what it is. Yeah, she was. She didn't last long in our in our convent wasn't a convent, but it was still run by the nuns. And so we had, we had this hippie who, who had alternative ideas, let's say, and she was into kind of meditation and stuff like that. So she brought us into the Oratory because it was an actual Oratory in the school, which is like a small prayer room, I think, is the original kind of designation. So our entire class of like boys and girls, you know, hormonal, teenagers sweaty, stuffed into this quite small room, and she lit some incense lit some candles, put on some Blinky punky music, and told us that we were doing like a guided meditation to to find God or to see God I can't remember how she phrased it. Um she was thinking the Catholic god, I'm pretty sure. Well, I'm not sure really, but, you know, certainly within the school curriculum, she should have been thinking about the Catholic God, and our, you know, developing our relationship with Catholic God, that's actually the first time that I kind of through her and teaching that year, it was the first time that I really kind of had an idea of developing a personal relationship, because up until that point, the Catholic Church is very kind of middleman kind of stuff. Everything has to go through a priest. So my ideas about priesthood, which I know we want to talk about, as well, were kind of were interesting as a child, and then that's really that was the kind of tipping point for me about developing personal relationship with Deity, which I'll probably talk on a little bit later. And but I was taken out of that room and out of that experience and into a visionary experience, and which I had no context for I have no like, this was, you know, early 90s In Ireland, with no internet, no bookshops No Well, there, there were kind of one or two around the country but, that had kind of under the counter stuff. I can't really, there really was no context for this at all, in my experience my lived experience at least. And I was taken up this kind of mountain to a female figure, who talked to me for what seemed like hours. And, and I completely It was like, and it was like in a kind of a downlow that I have no idea to this day, I have no idea what that conversation was about. I know, we had a conversation but, and I didn't retain it consciously. But then we were done with that. And she stood me up and sent me off on my way. And I was walking back down this mountain and like, I was seeing what looked like this kind of it was daytime on the mountain but it like the the nighttime experience was down this kind of cityscape, almost at the base, you know, a kind of gaudy music was playing and it was real kind of it was like everything tacky rolled up into like this kind of Carnival almost atmosphere to it, and everything. But she had told me that my life was there. And that my family was there. And all my friends were there, I didn't have many friends as a teenager, but like, you know, my, really my life's path that she was sending me back on my life's path. And that was made very clear to me. But every step I was taken, it was just more and more wrong, you know, and I knew she was telling the truth, that was the thing. And that was why I had started on it because I was 100% I believed exactly what she said, like everything that I ever knew, or, or would know to my, to my mind then was there. And but it just felt more and more wrong with each step. And I turned around and looked back up at her and she was just standing there and didn't make any kind of gesture or any kind of come hither or anything, you know, on me. But I made a decision. And I made a very clear choice at that point that actually my life's path was with her whatever that meant, whatever that meant to me at the time, I had no clue, no concept, but my life's path was with her. And, like Suddenly, I was kind of back with her, you know, I didn't fly or any it was just I you know, I was there with her and enfolded in an embrace that still moves me to this day still I kind of like I get emotional every time I try and talk about it. But and it was it was the the enrapture of the infinite to use Wiccan terminology I suppose you know, and, and it really, really folded me up and connected me in a way I I genuinely can't describe I can't put into words but I was connected to to her but also to a universal power, universal energy. And it from that point I thought, you know, I thought I had my own religion and then I was like, I'm completely on my own and, like, ooh God is a woman. Look at me pathfinding. my innocence, like, but am I called her the Mistress of the Light, as cheesy as that sounds, but erm.. and her symbols for my religious symbols were an upside down triangle made of three dots, right? And a looped cross, which I didn't realize was an Egyptian anchor, but that was the symbol that she had given me. Which was kind of strange. And, and, and she was my Goddess. And she was connected to to nature, the mountain was very representational of nature, and, you know, natural forces and universal energies and all this kind of stuff. And it was only like, a year, a year and a half after um my sister was talking to this guy from our village and she was she was given out about me and my younger sister was given out about me. And, and, you know, "my sister's so weird, she thinks she has her own religion", you know, all this kinda stuff. And this guy is like, oh, come tell me or tell her to come and talk to me. And basically, so I went, and he handed me a book, which was Vivian Crowley's The Phoenix From the Flame. And, like, just from page one was just click, you know, it was like coming home. And I was actually delighted to realize it was not on my own. Yeah, paganism wasn't COURTNEY HERE:payingHERE and there were other people who did it. But of course, I was 16 nobody would fuckin talk. Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. I don't know if cursing is allowed. Okay. Alright. Awesome. And yes, so nobody would talk to me Of course. And and it was about and yeah, I think I think I was just no I was, I was 18. kind of pushing I was turning 19 that year, but in that January, and the first pagan move started in Ireland and I think it was the same guy got a letter because we were doing letters back then from like the pagan Federation Scotland who covered Ireland and basically informed he was he was a part of the membership or something, you know, it signed up at some point. So he got a notification saying that this This moot was happening if anybody doesn't know what a moot is like a monthly social and networking kind of gathering a pagan moot. And, and they're, they're, they're quite popular here in Ireland now and in in Britain at the time as well. And we didn't have any Irish organizations, but we did have practicing Wiccans, and some Druids, I'm sure at the time and various other pagans of different stripes. And so I missed the first one, where Janet Farrar was recruited. I think like looking back, you know, and I have a huge fondness for Janet & Stewart. And, and, but I think it definitely wouldn't have been the right setup for me and their group at the time. But I went to the second one in the February where Barbara Lee had shown up, and Barbara Lee is an initiate of Janet's, or was or you know, is, as opposed to, and an initiate of Janet and Stewart's coven and their direct line, and I met her again, you know, we just had an instant, clique and, like, I still call that woman my witch mommy, she's amazing. I mean, we've been through so much together and I was with their coven umm wicca. So it was traditional Wicca, like the the lineage stuff, you know, all the initiation practices in the training and all that stuff. So that the kind of bunny air quotes "the serious kind of Wicca" you know, umm, which is not that every kind of Wicca isn't serious, obviously, individual practitioners take their, their, their own spirituality seriously, hopefully. And, but it was, it was pretty intense, you know, the training system that that we were going through was pretty intense, the initiations were really intense. And, and it was, it was a fantastic and structural learning environment for me as well as being a really safe space for quite a troubled teenager to, to land in, you know, and I was quite vulnerable at that point. And I really found a home there. So I've a huge grasp abroad, a lot of love. Still for and for Barbara, Barbara Lee, shout out if you're listening, and I absolutely love her. There's actually an interview on my YouTube channel, about traditional Wicca in Ireland, if anybody wants to have a look at that. And there's a slice of the Irish kind of pagan history there. And it's really amazing yeahCourtney 47:36Yeah we'll put that in our final and direct them right to it. Lora O'Brien 47:39Yeah, so um, so I say true, got my got my puppy papers, as I call them my pedigree through them. But like, a lot of it was learning what wasn't for me as well about it, you know, it was great training. It was it was great kind of introduction to scholarly research to umm learn how to work in groups. And it was definitely my, my priesthood initiations definitely happened there because, umm even though it wasn't like, my kind of personal spiritual faith, if you like, umm, you know, I had to go through it to find that out, and that's fine. Umm but, learning how priesthood was done was was was very, very formative for me there. And, you know, and also looking at other groups and other I was very involved in, in the pagan community, both in Ireland and internationally, because we had internet at that point. And, and I started getting involved in, you know, global online communities as well as being I was, I got it, one of the biggest witchcraft and Wicca organizations in Britain umm in the world at the time, as well, I think it was called The Children of Artemis. I ended up like running moderation for their umm their forums and teaching classes and stuff. So I was doing a lot from like, the age of about 19 -20, probably. And so like, all of that was really, really excellent kind of foundational stuff for my own kind of priesthood practice later, you know, spirituality, even though my spirituality was was nothing to do with any of that, if that makes sense? Umm the structure and the training and all that was was really essential to, to, you know, to feed into kind of what I'm doing now.Courtney 49:34Yeah, and I, your work is so important. I just want to say that for the record, like it is so important that the the level of scholarship and an awareness that you have brought to international paganism has just been phenomenal. It's like every single time that people ask me like, I would like to know I'm feeling really drawn to um to Irish magic. I'm like Irish pagan school go.. now! Shut up and go! and we've we brought up the school a number of times. And I also really appreciate the kind of work that you've done to help with these strengthening of pagan clergy internationally that's work that that I've been doing as well over here. Just because I learned the hard way when it what it does to not just a group but a leader. When you're not..when when when you're when you've you've got the magic training, but maybe you don't quite have the experience in groups or the you know, or the, I don't want to sound like I was unsupported by my teachers. I certainly was, but I also feel like that there's I remember, like I just basically when I was jumping up and down leaving my coven, and they're like, what do we do, and I said, you figure it out! There's no book that I'm hiding from you people, there's no manual, but then Laura actually went and wrote a manual(laughing) which has been phenomenal. And umm one thing that you say in the book that really resonated with me was that it is both a strength and a weakness. And that there isn't a codified way for someone to become pagan clergy. It's great that we don't have to, like watch my Christian friends that go into so much debt to go to seminary and get these degrees and then never been, you know, are living in poverty for all their lives, and that they have to go through all these hurdles. At the same time, they walk out with a wealth of resources, and support to be able to do their work, and we don't have those obstacles, but then we also don't have that kind of support. So I would love if you could tell people a little bit about pagan priesthood. And also, what inspired you to write this text?Lora O'Brien 51:48Yeah. Well, basically, that manual is the one that I needed 10 years before this. And that's pretty much how I know like, that's pretty much how I've written every single one of my books is, I'm kind of like, I'm looking for something, I'm looking for something I'm looking for something and like, there isn't, it's just not available, or it's not available in the right kind of way, or, you know, like, I have standards, Courtney, I have, I hold myself to a very, very high standards, I am so hard on myself. So, like having to do everything the hard way, I'm kind of like, you know, I really wish that other people didn't have to go through the bullshit that I've had to go through just to get to this place, and the exhaustion and the burnups, and all that crap, you know, and, and all the stuff you have to put up with. And so all of my books have been written for that, you know, for that reason, and a practical guide to pagan priesthood is, is no different. And I was actually when I signed on with Llewellyn, and I was actually writing a completely different book, and which was about Irish magic, which actually became a course. But I ended up going through like this really difficult time in my life. And really like personal trauma. And the combination of multiple years of personal trauma actually all kind of came to a head. And I just kept getting blocked, you know, and I kept and by the time I finished that book, I hated it, I hated the side of it, I hated everything to do with it. And it was just everything about it was wrong. And it was the feeling that I was describing earlier on, I really kind of use that as a guide like that kind of you're steppin' and, and you're steppin' and, and everything seems to be putting you on this path. But it just feels wrong, you know, and, and that kind of right and wrong, that that intuitional sense of right and wrong. I've really learned how to trust, you know, over the years, because it has genuinely never led me astray. You know, even when the path seemed to be very clear in front of me. There was always another way that I needed to go. And you know, when I got that sense of wrongness on that path. So I talked to my editor who is amazing. Alisia, umm she, she she was so supportive through the whole thing. She's brilliant, she's absolutely brilliant, and I can't I can't sing her praises highly enough. And I just I just laid it out for I said, Look, this is not the right book for me to be writing. And she was like, okay, so you know, what we, you know, and I was like, Look, oh, you know, I haven't advanced and everything at that stage, I'd invested time and money in me. And I was like, I will refund your money. Or I could write a different book. And the one that was really tuggin' at me and I actually gave her like two or three book ideas because I always have many, many book ideas in the pipeline. Uhh but the one that was really tugging at me was the one that also caught her attention as well, which was this book The Pagan Priesthood. And she was like, you know, like there's there isn't anything like this and I was like, I know but it's going to be so hard. but I knew that because of various factors like the.. The Traditional Wicca training I also went through like O.T.O. training as well and initiation cycle with that, because obviously, you know, doing everything the hard to the hard way is is essential, you know. And so I had all that I also had a lot of community experience and through my work with Irish heritage, and I had experience with everything from you know, international and national government organizations and, and, you know, right down to literally local kind of the parish priests, the local school teacher and the local public and on a board of management, you know, so right down to those levels. And I had done various kind of training programs in rural Ireland working at a community level, like that Irish heritage training and tourism training. And, you know, I just, I had studied psychology because, you know, refer you back to that, that trauma, like, one of the things that I had to figure out was a how not to go insane and survive. So I started studying psychology, you know, in my spare time, and, and that has become a really a lifelong passion, actually, I would love to go and get my Doctorate of psychology at some point. And, but, you know, all of these things kind of came together plus my own kind of personal, my spirituality, but like having to, to combine all of those things into, you know, a leadership and a priesthood, and really not having anybody who was doing all of the things that I could see needed doing. And I was like, Alright, you kind of have to write this book. So I wrote the book. And I kind of split it up, because I really feel that there's no one right way to be a priest, you know, and that's, that's at the heart of this book actually, is providing people and facilitating people with that kind of guidance and that support. And it kind of starts with there's basically four main sections in it, there's there's other bits and pieces, but there's four main sections in it which are am dividing priesthood into pastoral and sacerdotal, and I could be pronouncing sacerdotal wrong, cuz ahh nerd girl pronunciation, I've only ever heard this, or when you're going to receive it in writing sacerdotal, maybe, and but anyway. Umm so breaking it up into and it's basically like community work, right. And then the kind of let's call them the inner mysteries. And so the pastoral work is your community functions. And so that would include, you know, being on call crisis management, and various other bits and pieces that like you would have to work with in an outreach capacity and being available for community work. And, and then the sacerdotal stuff would be your, your direct relationship with a deity really is kind of what it comes down to. And sometimes those things, obviously crossover as in, if you were facilitating somebody who was trying to, you know, reach a deity and you do have to kind of step into that, that middle person role, in some respect, but I try and keep that very limited. And again, you know, back to my experience with Catholic priests, I really don't want to be in between anybody and their Gods. And that's not what I'm about. But sometimes, you know, I have that, that those skills that training that relationship with a particular deity maybe that somebody else just either doesn't have her yet, or doesn't actually need, you know, but still needs to needs to interact with them in some way. And that's part of a sacerdotal priesthood function, even though it kind of crosses over into community function, if that makes sense? Generally, those are the kind of the two main kind of breakouts that I did to try and, you know, because not everybody, people think of priesthood. And they think that they have to be like, you know, leader in a leader position or in a, you know, in in a community activist position or something like that. And yes, those are definitely parts of the pastoral function at times. But you know, there is also the quiet, inner times the inner mysteries, the divination practices, the journey in practices that are so essential to your relationship, personal relationship with deity and those are the devotional practices, those are just as important, you know, you don't have to be large and in charge to be a priest. So I really wanted to kind of break all that out, theoretically. So that's basically section one and section two. And then section three, and section four are the practical kind of skills development that come along with that and so it is very, like it's a practical guide to pagan priesthood. And I really tried to make it very practical.Courtney 59:34Oh and it's so important and I think, sometimes, you know, there's there can there can be this very rebellious spirit within paganism of that we don't need priests, we don't need leaders. And to be fair, it's great to have that mentality because it keeps people from clenching onto positions of power in a bad way. But what I also want people to remember is that since humans started walking upright and having language We have had spiritual leaders in every single human. That's how they basically how Archaeologists, I think defined when, you know, humans became humans is they started practicing religion in one way or spirituality, whatever you want to call it. And so I think that there is a natural there is a natural need to have people fulfill these, these roles of the priest within pagan within pagan communities. Umm but I and that's where I feel like you're really calling out an important fine line that like, no, we're not going to stand in between you and the Gods. And sometimes I felt like as a leader, people wanted me to be that or they felt like I should be that and I used to another one of my tantrums with people was the Goddess does not show up to me at the end of the day and give me all this information that you cannot access through. No, it doesn't happen. There's not a portal in my bedroom where she just appears. You know, I wish! I have a lot of questions. I said, so I can. But what I think is important is that people to kind of say, show me the way show me around, I don't know, I mean, the big..like when I was living in New York City, there was a big shift for me from where I was stopping strangers to ask for directions, or people would see me, why didn't they go do you need some help finding something? And then one day, I was the person that people were coming to for directions. So it's not necessarily that I was the queen of the New York City subway system, and they couldn't go good and get anywhere without seeking me. But I was there and could say, Yeah, I actually just take the E train and you know, don't you know here's an easier way, let me show you. Yeah, um, and so in this book, I love the practicality of it, the journaling prompts and the self assessment worksheets. And I love that some of them seem pretty standard for anyone in leadership or clergy. But you also have some that are very specific to pagan such as divination, magic and healing. And one of the key takeaways for this for me, and this was we we interviewed Ivo Dominguez Jr, a couple of weeks ago about whether or not somebody should be in a coven. And I love how you said, what you need is to set a goal and objective if you're going to lead a group, you need to set a goal and objective for that group. And it's something I'll admit I didn't do when I was running my coven. I was like, oh, we'll just figure it out as we go along. Well, nine years later, we still hadn't figured it out. And I think it was one of the source of my problems of burnout. And it made it it made it very challenging for my coven when I left for them to move on without me. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to share a method of how how either a leader or a group of people can figure out the group's purpose?Lora O'Brien 1:02:36Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's a couple of different ways and I just want to kind of cross just touch on one thing he said there like a lot of it is kind of standard leadership stuff. And that's actually what we've been missing, I think in pagan priesthood is like business, you know, stuff that's standard in a business environment is applicable in many ways to running a coven. um, or any kind of organizational work. um, and that's what I tried to because like I said, I have this kind of multidisciplinary background, um and experience in so many different areas, I really tried to kind of bring all that together, because I have found all of those things to be so useful, you know, when I was trying to be in a leadership position, or be in a priesthood, and really priesthood is about service, okay. And, you know, your leaders should be of service, and in whatever way that makes sense for them. And but that is the most important and essential part of priesthood, so that can be service to the community, it can be service to the Gods, it can be, you know, it can be service to yourself, if that's the work that you need to be doing right now, you know, and, but when you come together, then in a group situation, and you so there's a, there's a couple of different things, and it really depends on how you want your group structure to be. So you can you can be a, like a community, so as in like a communal kind of organization structure, right? So that would be where basically everybody gets an equal vote. And it's non hierarchical, right. And depending on the people, that can work very well. I'm a little bit shy of that, because of my experience in community organizations, and the way there's no accountability. And, you know, I would kind of earmark that as as that can be, you know, it seems like the right thing to do. Like, you know, you can have a group and we don't have to have leaders, we don't have to have anybody in charge. But human nature being what it is, that can often lead to nobody taking responsibility for everything and nobody being accountable for anything, and that becomes an issue. So if you're going to go for that kind of structure, you need to make sure that there are particular roles and functions that are assigned umm within the group. Umm, and in that situation if you want to, you know, have a goal basically for your group, that would be very simply, you know, a roundtable discussion, I would suppose, umm where everybody literally sat still sits down. And you know, you don't leave that table until you figure out what your goals are, and everybody throws everything into the ring, you know, have a brainstorming session, have a, and, you know, cast your votes into a hat, you know, whatever it like, whatever that is, but really, like, have somebody taking notes, have somebody who, you know, again, roles and functions, and there's no point in sitting down for three hours and getting the perfect thing, but then having no record of what actually that was, or how you got there, or anything like that, you know, so just in simple things like that, and your roles and functions are going to be really important and will really kind of come together to facilitate umm effective kind of group management and decision making around goals. And then the other kind of option, I suppose, and obviously, there's there's variations on both of these teams. But the other option is to have a hierarchy. And, and I often joke about, you know, I won't be a part of a community organization like that, because.. and I am, in fairness, Pagan Life Rights is very much like that. And, you know, that, like, it comes with its difficulty, its its pros and cons to his but, umm I'm kinda done with all that I feel like I've, I've had all my experiences I can have and now where I'm at is pretty much benevolent dictatorship right?! (laughing) and, you know, a lot of people get very kind of hung up on like, Oh, that's, that's terrible. You know, you want to run a cult, we were joking about cults earlier, like, you want to run a cult and I'm like, No, I really don't want to run run a cult because what that means to me, and how that how that works out in practice is actually that ultimately, it's on me, you know, if I'm the one and like, I have absolutely no problem with handing that over either and that like that has to be kind of built in you know, and basically like I had had a thing recently actually am just as a good example of this where am that original Goddess, I didn't figure out who she was for ages and ages and ages. Umm and I was kind of figuring that she was like loosely the sovereignty of Ireland and that I was a priestess of Ireland, and I still feel that that's kind of true but um because of my work with Medb Rathcroghan or Cruachan. Um.. Medb as sovereignty has become very very important to me and Medb as a Sovereignty Goddess and a lot of people view her as a queen if you're not familiar and Queen Medb is you know, known as the Queen of Connacht the she's often she's often written as the you know, the jealous one who kind of started a war over a bowl and you know, she was jealous of her husband she was jealous they could call in and she was spiteful, ya know, she's you know, like misogyny much?! But, and you know, there's a lot of context there the people obviously miss and she is a much more complicated figure and having developed that kind of personal relationship through my guardianship role and management role Cruachan. and I very much got on board with the Queen actually my next book will be Queen Medb, so I have it written, so it's in the editing process and should be out before Christmas 2020 hopefully all goin well ugh! I've committed to it now haven't I? But anyway, and yeah, it turns out that that Goddess was actually Medb, but Queen Medb of Connacht is is kind of one version of her or one role or function of her and she is a kind of a larger sovereignty Goddess so and but but but I digress. And she has charged me with and with setting up basically a priesthood over the next seven years in Ireland, and which there's a lot to it, but, you know, my going into that contractual obligation with her with that deity, my one kind of requirement was I was like, Alright, I'll do this work, you know, I'm in I know it's needed all the rest of it but, the one thing is, and I will be I will be in charge of this until there is somebody who is qualified to take it over and I actually wrote that into my my oath. Basically, I took an oath and which is a contract as well with her and, and that's what I'm talking about with the benevolent dictatorship like that is going to be a shitload of work to set up. You have no idea and but I knew that I couldn't do it as part of an organization. I just, it would drain me and it would burn me out. I needed to. I knew exactly. I hopefully, I know exactly what the steps are that that I need to make it happen. It's big, umm, it's scary, but, you know, that is that is what I've been tasked with and making that happen, I'm gonna need to depend on myself and obviously, I will have a team and I will have an organization and that's what the rest of the hierarchy is for with those specific roles and functions, but, when you have that particular structure, whoever is the one who is going to have to do the most work, who hopefully is the one who also is in charge, and in a leadership position, because that's where the responsibility is, that's where the primary service is happening. Umm, they're probably the ones who are going to set the goals, you know, and I don't think that that's a bad thing, as long as it's done in that kind of ethical way. And I do talk about that in the book as well. And, you know, ethics and standards is a huge, huge part of that's built into my own personal practice, my own activism work and my own, you know, priesthood, and, and, you know, the big fuckin stick I beat myself with all the time, basically, because I have mental issues. But like, you know, holding that kind of high standard is something that, you know, corny kind of references, and I kind of mentioned it earlier, you know, being involved in international communities and seeing, seeing how badly things can go wrong, you know, and that's before we get into like, abuses and all that kind of bullshit, like, but, and because there's a lot of that too, and there has been a lot, and there still is a lot and one of the main things that I really, really wanted to do with the Pagan Priesthood book was A. yes, let people know how to be a priest. And it definitely does that, I hope and but also, you know, and also, and whether priesthood is right for you, because it's genuinely not for everybody. So, you know, that's an important factor too. You can read that book and say, Okay, yeah, I actually, that's not for me, and that's just as important. But the other thing is, if people are reading this book, and they're saying, Okay, so that's what a priest looks like, that's the kind of standards like it's a low for comparing, as far as I'm concerned, right? Umm it's a low bar to set, and I really hope other people come along and are, you know, raising that bar, and through the decades to come, and, but like, it's at least a baseline where somebody new coming into the community or coming into a group or, you know, coming into some kind of like, alternative spiritual scene, they can understand what's okay and what's not okay. And that's something that I really don't feel that we've had, you know, like globally, really, until this and, like, definitely, there's individual, I'm not saying I'm like, I'm the first one to do this, or anything, there's definitely individuals who are setting those standards who are holding the who are walking that walk, you know, and, and 100% respect to them. But there's a lot who aren't as well. And there's a lot of new people coming in who don't know the difference, you know, and don't know what to expect.Courtney 1:12:48I think that's one of the things that this book can be helpful, even if somebody is not ready to go into leadership, or doesn't want to, to be able to look at this and saying, is my leader following these principles? If so, if not, maybe this isn't the group for me or this isn't the teacher for me. And that's, that's really key. So you don't go away thinking that every single, you know, if you have a bad experience with someone who's either inexperienced, or is got some personality issues that make them more of a challenging or not a not a very good leader, but it's like that's not how it should be. Alright, now we're going to come to the game. Did Courtney make it, eat it, or did she draw the line? So I'm going to give you guys three recipes. One of these I made, one of these I ate, and one of these, I have to draw the line on this one. I can't do it. Oh, all right. So you have to guess so first recipe. Spicy Peanutbutter Toasted Cheese Sandwich. Basically, you're mixing hot sauce with chunky peanut butter you smear it all over the bread and you put sliced cheddar cheese on top toast it in the toaster oven til' the bread is brown the cheese is melted. And the hot sauce peanut butter is bubbling.Lora O'Brien 1:13:57You totally made that Courtney.Courtney 1:13:59 Alright, next one, hold on, Saskatchewan Salad, which is oysters, carrots, kiwi, peas, spam, and green olives in unflavored gelatin garnish with easy cheese served cold usually on a bed of Iceberg lettuce most often served with roast beef at the holidays. Hilary 1:14:16Oh my god. Where did you find this shit?Courtney 1:14:20Alright, third one. Autumn pie-caken; which is an apple pie baked inside a double layer spice cake with burned butter cream cheese frosting.Kanani 1:14:29I know you made that.Hilary 1:14:31I'm guessing that.Kanani 1:14:33I actually know you made that.Hilary 1:14:35Yeah, I'm I'm positive you made that too. I'm guessing that the middle one is Kanani 1:14:39the middle one you passed.Lora O'Brien 1:14:40Yeah. Yeah, I will actually lose a little bit of faith in you, Courtney if you made the middle one. Hilary 1:14:47I was gonna say, I think you're gonna have to leave this byKanani 1:14:49But, just know that now you're going to have to eat the middle one. Just know that. Courtney 1:14:55Oh my god. I'm too predictable. I did eat the spicy peanut butter toasted cheese sandwich that my friend It was phenomenal. I want one right now. It was so good. I did make the autumn pie-caken my husband dared me to he didn't think that I actually would and I you better fucking believe I made that thing for ThanksgivingKanani 1:15:13I remember that because I was angry that you didn't make it for me and I couldn't haveCourtney 1:15:19I can still make one for you. Your birthday is coming up you can have pie-caken okay? It's also not called Saskatchewan salad. I just put that in there to try to give some context I don't I don't know I could probably do that. I won't make it but if someone's served it to me I'd try it. Hilary 1:15:34Oh, really? Really?? barf! So, honestly, like the jelly I'm like UHH!Kanani 1:15:40it's the gelatin that just steals the hard passCourtney 1:15:44It's the unflavored gelatin I mean, maybe if it was lime gelatin, Hilary 1:15:47No! Fucking NO! It's a hard pass!Courtney 1:15:53This is one of the ones that Lora posted on my page. And I was like, Yep, I have that recipe. I literally don't have that recipe. I literally have never made this thing. I don't think I would I think I'd end up getting divorced. Kanani gets divorced cuz she makes a mess. I would get divorced if I made a gelatin thing in the house even if my husband didn't eat it just knowing it was there would make him angry.Lora O'Brien 1:16:13Yeah, even if it didn't have a face you know? The face is next level stuff but like even if it didn't have a face I think Yeah, the jelly jelly oysters...NOPECourtney 1:16:24sorry Canadians I literally do not think it comes from Saskatchewan I just needed to have somethingHilary 1:16:29Why would you do that to someone and to curse this region with this disgusting food Lora O'Brien 1:16:36Just the presentation notes of like it's served on a bed of iceberg lettuce it's like NOKanani 1:16:47Goes in the same place that kale goes in the garbage canLora O'Brien 1:16:52In the bin, get in the bin!Courtney 1:16:54Well, Lora, how can people find your book and keep in touch with you?Lora O'Brien 1:16:57Awesome. Well, I it was published by Llewellyn so it's it's pretty much everywhere that you would normally find a book for sale. So and and if people do read it and like it, I'd love some more reviews. That'd be great. Reviews really help authors. Absolutely. Yeah. So um I can be found at loraobrien.ie and my first name is spelled L-O-R-A so really if you google Lora O'Brian or L-O-R-A and like witchcraft, or Lora and weird Irish pagan or anything like that, you're gonna find me I'm all over the internet. I have a YouTube channel, I have a blog on my website. And obviously at where we umm I do all my teaching there. And we have multiple different classes from native Irish presenters, so it's not just me and John and we really are developing it as a platform to support um Irish teachers so that you know people who want to genuinely access and I mean our business tagline is authentic connection to Ireland, but actually, that's my life's mission. It really is(laughing), so yeah, and part of my community service is a part of my priesthood service is to create educational content. So I do that through the books and the blogs and the YouTube and the the Instagram and the Facebook and all that all the usual places. So we're even on Tik Tok Courtney.Courtney 1:18:23Well, we used to be but then apparently it's no longer allowed over here. So yeah,Lora O'Brien 1:18:27oh, okay. Well, yeah, and I mean, I say we're on Tik Tok I kind of open it occasionally look at it and close it down again really fast. So I don't know..don't know if that's gonna last.Kanani 1:18:40All I know is the three of us need to make our asses to Ireland somehow one of these days becauseHilary 1:18:47Mmmhmm when they allow us back in the country yeahKanani 1:18:48I know. What country will allow us in their country? Courtney 1:18:53They're making us sit in a room and think about what we didHilary 1:18:55They're like you are in trouble!Kanani 1:18:58until we have until you realize how stupid you're being you're gonna have to stay over there.Courtney 1:19:06Alright friends, well, thank you all so much for listening. As always, if you want to support the show, the best way is to subscribe rate and review us on iTunes. buy us a coffee or check out our merchant our Etsy store. When you buy something it pings on Kanani's phone and it makes her day. This week on Patreon, we will be releasing some bonus content with Lora. She generously answers one of our listener questions which is about the practice of bird divination, and its relation to ancient Ireland including the god Lughs. So please join us on Patreon for that and more including my video on catching moon water. And we are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. So for show notes, audio transcripts or to ask us a question to answer on a future episode. Go to Until then, keep moting that shit y'all. We'll talk to you next week. Kanani 1:19:56Bye.Hilary 1:19:58Bye.Lora O'Brien 1:19:58Sláinte(Exit Music) 1:19:58Join us on the first and third Mondays of the month for magickal tools, tips and stories about living as a Witch in today's world. Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer on a future podcast. So mote it be!Courtney 1:20:12She managed one of Ireland's most important sites Cruachan (Rathcroghan) for a decade and is a co pounder, cope is a (LAUGHING) sorry, wow.Hilary 1:20:24Oh my god. That was a bad one. Courtney 1:20:26No Hilary No NoHilary 1:20:29Quincunx! ................
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