That Witch Life



Episode 56: A Witch’s Funeral RitesMon, 10/26 11:59AM ? 1:14:24SUMMARY KEYWORDSwitch, witches, funeral, find, including, embalming, herb, offers, witchcraft, feel, book, sacred, family, pagan, mists, mortuary, burial, ritual, funeral home, peopleSPEAKERSKanani, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Mortellus, Screaming Goat, (Exit Music)Intro music 00:0320 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world, following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a witch in today's world.Courtney 00:48Hey, witches. Welcome back. This is that witch life Podcast. I am your host today. I'm Courtney and I am here with Hilary. Hilary 00:56Hello, Courtney 00:57and Kanani.Kanani 00:59Hello.Courtney 01:01And I'm a little spacey today because I had a Kanani lunch, which involved two peanut butter cups and also might have involved an extra spoonful of peanut butter out of the jar. And then I was full and didn't feel like having like a sandwich or anything and I thought that's fine. You know, I'll be okay. Hilary 01:19And then it's not fine. Courtney 01:21It's it's not I mean, canonica said she lives on sugar runs on sugar. And I've done this twice now. And I just keep forgetting that if I just have sugar for lunch, the afternoon and the evening doesn't go well. I don't know how you function. Kanani 01:36I don't understand. That's like my diet Courtney 01:42is peanut butter cups?Hilary 01:44That's horrifying. Kanani 01:46And sugar,Courtney 01:47peanut butter cups and sugar because peanut butter cups are not sugar enough.Kanani 01:50I think I had I had I What did I have for lunch? I know I had ice cream. I know I had some lavender ice cream at lunch. I'm trying to remember if I ate anything else. I had some of those iced Starbucks coffeesCourtney 02:03JesusHilary 02:05Girl, you got to eat some real food. Your poor body.Courtney 02:09She actually ate spinach when she was at my house. Last weekend. We had a socially distance, late Kanani birthday dinner in the backyard until it started raining and then we had a socially distance they're on one side of the downstairs. We're on the other side of the downstairs. And Kanani actually a three bites of spinach.Hilary 02:27It's a miracle.Courtney 02:28I mean, granted it was soaked in butter and cheese but there was spinach in there. She's like I like these. I like the spinach and I'm like that's because I cooked it in butter and I've loaded it with Parmesan cheese and she's like, Oh yeah, I think that's whyScreaming Goat 02:42ahhhhhhhhKanani 02:44Yeah, there was a reason I was willing to put it on my plate Oh my God. That was the cheese was obvious.Courtney 02:50Today we have a very seasonally appropriate show Mortellus the author of "Do I have to wear black? Rituals, customs and funerary etiquette for modern pagans" is joining us to talk about funeral... funer... FUNERAL. See, this is why I should need sugar for lunch. funeral. Right? For witches. Look at me, I said the line. And before that Hilary is going to talk with us about the use of damiana in magic. But first given that October I think we have some major check in to do around what kind of magic are we making these days? And that includes the mundane what kind of movies are you watching these kind of days? Because we all know those are all all magical. So Hillary what is what is on your witches docket for this very potent time of year?Hilary 03:41Well, this time of year, I usually am like what is every Witch related Halloween movie that I can watch every night? So yeah, I mean, I've just been going through like I rewatched Practical Magic for the like 5000 5,000th time I watched was the one I watched last night. Oh I like rewatched Sabrina like the newer one, like from start to finish because I was like I don't really remember most of this because you know, I like watched it forever ago. And that was it's fun. I mean, it's like again, you know, witchcraft movies, not a lot of accuracy sometimes. But fun to watch none nonetheless. So and then magically I've been doing a lot of I have felt both in my house and in myself a lot of stagnation. So I've been doing a lot of work on shifting like getting energy moving, clearing out stagnant energy. So I've done a lot of Bath work on myself and then I've used I've used a lot of smoke cleansing with cedar recently just to kind of shift some energy in the house that was feeling a little heavy. And other than that, just trying to keep myself calm as we approach the election which is increasingly challenging.Courtney 05:02Yes, yes, absolutely. Oh and so so what is about cedar that's different I know that you've in the past used rosemary and other things What about cedar is really calling to you right now?Hilary 05:15Well, I mean I like to change up what herbs I use for smoke cleansing. You know I try I try and stay away well specifically from white Sage but just Sage in general because of the effect it has on Native American cultures specifically with white sage. But I will some but I switch up cedar, rosemary, sometimes I use damiana, sometimes I use Yarrow. It kind of varies. But when I when I was last at Q-meb they had some really nice cedar cedar bundles. So I grabbed one and it smells lovely.Courtney 05:51Cedar does smells so good. It's like,Hilary 05:53it's so nice. Plus is kind of that like, it's like, I don't know. It's just it's a comforting scent to me. You know?Courtney 06:01Yeah, like, there is something very, very homey about it. And it reminds me of coming in from a rainstorm. I don't whyHilary 06:08Same I agree. And I think that it, I'm drawn to it around this time of year probably because it's a smell that I find comforting. And I think this time of year, I tend to get like I'm like I want to be cozy. I want to make food that feels nourishing and comforting. I want to make you know, I want to like feel warm. And so cedar scent is a really like warm scent for me. And and magically is I mean, it's a really it's really good for cleansing space. It's very similar to Sage in that sense, but a good alternative because of the impact. So I think that it's something that I swap up to that or Rosemary are tend to be my go tos. But I was like, oh man I haven't used ... or yerba santa as well. But like I was like I haven't used cedar in a while and then when I saw that I was like, ooh, smoke cleansing with cedar sounds lovely. And so I kind of went through my my space and and just kind of smoke cleansed the area and really focused on letting kind of the stagnant heavy energy it was specifically in my office I felt kind of stuck at work Courtney 07:20Nice. Nice, but you can only what have you got on your witches, in your witches, whatever. I don't know, trying to think of something clever to say, what are you doing right now.Kanani 07:33As far as kind of festive stuff, I would just say we just watch Halloween movies all the time. We've watched Nightmare Before Christmas, we always watch The Addams Family wanting to usually watch Casper. And watch how we've already watched Halloween Town one, we haven't watched the second one yet. We've already seen Hocus Pocus, half a dozen times. I haven't actually re watched practical magic yet this this season. I know that that that will happen. Um, but yeah, just kind of the house has been decorated since August. So you know, we've been well into the festive festive mood, the kids actually have costumes, we're not going to go trick or treating, we're just going to we're going to kind of do everything we used to do which was we would go get pizzas. And at this time of the year, they do kind of pizzas that are shaped like a pumpkin look like a jack o' lantern. And so we'll get one of those, we'll eat pizza, hang out at home, we'll watch we'll have candy and whatnot. And then we're just gonna watch Halloween movies and stay in this year. And then we always have a plate that we put out for the people passing through and just kind of light some candles and things like that. So we're just going to kind of do everything we would usually do only instead of trick or treating, just watch movies and eat, sit on the couch and eat candy. So the kids are perfectly content because they're still going to get candy and they still get to wear costumes and they still get a pizza. So they pretty much had all of their boxes checked. So I think I think this is probably the one year that we'd be able to get away with not taking them trick or treating. I think any other time they would be absolutely against the concept. But this year, they seem to be pretty happy with just kind of going with the flow. So that's kind of been our plan is you know, that's kind of our magical whatnots I think I was talking to my daughter about because they they go to a Spanish Immersion school. And so they're learning to be bilingual and so they learn a lot about Dia de los Muertos. And so we oftentimes will put out pictures of our ancestors that have passed and whatnot, around the altar and whatnot for Samhain, so we'll probably be doing that again. It'll be good.Hilary 09:55That totally made me forgot to tell you that I like decorated the shit out of the front of my house.Courtney 10:00Oh I need to come by and see itHilary 10:02oh my god it's so good I have like you should feel like it's not as good if it's not right because we have a projector of ghosts like flying across the front of the house and then we have I have like I put up these little ghosts like stake lights that's that like up around the front of the house and I have two witches feet that light up that are coming out of the ground and then a bunch of spider webs and and then yeah, little a little some witches legs with "the witches in" on the front door and then Courtney 10:31you should leave it up year round. You know all the things that you guys mentioned the front of our house is looking awfully awesome. We have any itup skeleton mermaid that is making all the walkers stop in and giggle and take pictures. And we just found this giant seven foot witch on eBay, which we hang up in a tree she's meant to like float and my husband got these floodlights to shine up on her and it's really terrifying. I'm so excited so we we aren't Hilary 11:02god that's legit. Courtney 11:04No, it's serious. And we have we call him Fred because he was a dancing skeleton. But his motor broke now he just stands there looking kind of sad. And we have some other things going on and like this, this light up gate around the front of the house. Yeah. And that's the .... my goal with decorating for Halloween is that everything be secondhand, or made by an artisan. So I really, really, really try to avoid getting the mass produced stuff out of factories, the the creation of which is just horrible for the environment. And they don't last long. And so they end up in landfills in a couple of years. And so I..Hilary 11:44And also the labor situation and a lot of those factories are horrendous.Courtney 11:48Exactly. Thank you for mentioning that. So what I do is, there are a lot of problems with goodwill, I'm not going to say that they're perfect, but at least then we're getting mostly used items. So I spent a lot of time going through the goodwill and I will pick up I found a lot of great decorations there. And then yard sales and eBay is super fun because you can find all kinds of stuff people are selling on eBay. I got this 24 inch doll a bride doll and she's terrifying. She's missing her eyes. That didn't tell me this when I bought her but I'm really glad because I was gonna take the eyes out anyway. And so my plan is to like rig her head so that her eyes light up, and then the veil and put it over her face and Kanani made a good suggestion. She's like, have her in the front window but facing a trick or treaters when they walk up. I'm like that is mortifying, so I'm just trying to figure out like, how to rig her, but she's really scary because I do have a baby doll in a white dress with beautiful, like luxurious, curly hair, and she has no eyes and they will be glowing. So she's probably also the source of those strange noises that happen downstairs at night while I'm trying to sleep. So yeahHilary 12:58I used to have this, uh, this Well, I moved into this house when I first moved back from England that I took on from like a friend of the friend, a friend of a friend. And with this house came this creepy as fuck, like real looking like, Halloween set. doll. I mean, like life size doll that we named Blair Yokte where Blair Witch, right? Yeah, She has her own Facebook page. And I think she is no longer sadly. But she was in our basement. But that was also where our laundry was. So you go down into the basement and then every like, literally I knew she was there. I'd be like Blair's here. I'm going to walk in and she's going to be right there. It's going to ok and then "FUCK Blair" like every time every time and I've played so many pranks on so many people were like, they would be taking a nap in the second bedroom and I'd have her like just directly in front of their door and when they opened the door and they would just lose their shit.Courtney 14:02YOU'RE SUCH AN ASSHOLE. What a terrible thing to do. I so wish I was it was there I would have helped you.Hilary 14:07Oh my god, it was so funny. Like, just like, I had a friend who is who is an amazing tenor opera singer, stay and the scream he made was like, I was like, I wish I could have recorded it because he has such a high voice to begin with. And he was like, scream and there was just like, No and then another friend just like screamed NO and then slam the door. And I mean it was just like we did this. So I mean so many pranks. When people would come over to stay in the house an we'd hide her in the shower. So you you wouldn't see her until you were washing your hands and you'd see her like peering out of the shower hahahahahaCourtney 14:40That's cruel. That is cruelHilary 14:43Oh my god, and like no one trick or treated and I'm positive it's because that bitch was too scary for anyone including adults to come up to the house. I miss I mean like literally she has a Facebook page and there are some really funny pictures of her on there. I feel like we should link it in our podcast. I think we definitely have to link it in our podcast notes my old my old roommate Micah runs that page. I think he's the one that started it. And he's gonna be like, why is there this influx of like, 300 people trying to friend Blair on Facebook.Courtney 15:18All right, well, anyway, speaking of something that has nothing to do with damiana Hilary, why don't you tell us about the use of damiana in witchcraftHilary 15:26Oh, man, so I love damiana for a number of reasons. Um, so I, I like knew so medicinally historically, from a medicinal purpose this use this herb is known to be calming, it's like, often used in nerve tonics. And it's also an aphrodisiac. So as you can imagine, it's really good in meditation work. It's also incredibly good in love and sex magic, so but there's also a few added bonus things. So it's known to enhance clairvoyance or psychic abilities. So if you are trying to connect with a with something, or if you're trying to get clarity on something, you feel stuck and you're not getting a clear message, it could be a good herb to use in that scenario. It is, as I said, an aphrodisiac. And so it is really good in love charms and love spells and to use in sex magic. So I it can be really good in spell jars. It can be really good in Bath magic. So if you're doing bath magic to focus on your love, again, I'm you know, like it's more you know, there's no or it's not, there's nothing that you could or should do, to, you know, to lure someone to you unwillingly. But if you are building upon, you're trying to reignite something or you're trying to heal some, you know, some love, I specifically like it in Bath magic, when you're trying to kind of heal a heart, when, and focus on kind of self love. I think it's really beautiful because of its calming effects. So I like it, if I'm feeling like I need a little self love, or my heart needs a little care, I like to use it in the bath. But you can also burn it like an incense. So it can be really good. If you're trying to focus on something, you're trying to meditate on something or get clarity on something, you can use it to smoke the space, you can breathe it in. If smoke is something that's okay for you. And it can it can kind of help get you into that centered focused space so that you that you can get the information you're needing. And then yeah, and sex magic as well. It's really good. You can put it on an altar if you have an altar that's, you know, a personal altar that you have a focus on either love or sex, it's good to use to dress a candle, again, if you're putting herbs on top of a candle. Be careful, watch it, don't leave it unattended because sometimes it can like suddenly get really fire like and then yeah, you can just also just place it on the on the altar as well or using as an offering if you're asking a specific deity about to bring you know, to like help with love or with self love.Courtney 18:14Outstanding. Well, thank you for that, witches is jars, it's something we should absolutely talk about at certain point because they are so so very helpful to a lot of magic. So hang in there, witch friends we will eventually get to all of these topics, probably on episode number 3412. ButHilary 18:333412 when we finally talk about spell jars,Courtney 18:37we'll take that long, guys. But yes, we're trying to get through,Hilary 18:40okay 2000Courtney 18:42Anyway, a couple of quick announcements for everybody. There are still tickets available for the dangerous goddess, which is the class I'm teaching through pathways and it is on November 10 at 7pm Central Time, which is 5pm Pacific and 8pm New York City. There are some like I said there are some tickets left in there $20 if you can't make it, don't worry, it will be recorded and sent to you afterward. So go to our website and under our show notes you will find the link to sign up for the class. And apparently Kanani, we are rolling through our which kits pretty fast. I think we still have a couple left, don't we?Kanani 19:24We do still have some left. And there is a chance that I'm going to be able to make more if demand if demand requires but at this point yeah, we actually had a ton of people that already pre did orders and that we've already mailed out and it was freaking awesome. So definitely get your spell kits while we still have them. And while we're able to make themCourtney 19:48yeah and perfect time because these are ancestor spell kits and you can use them year round but there's specifically you know, timed just that you can have them in time for Samhain if you would like to do some ancestor work, we've got I'll cover with herbs that Hilary has cultivated herself a spell that I wrote and some other delicious little trinkets that Kanani has collected for us. So definitely get on those. But yeah, there, they are moving pretty fast. They're on our Etsy store. And yeah, you can get them. Find the link on our website for that. And also giving a huge thank you to all of our Patreon supporters. And as a reminder for our squad level at $5. a month or above, you get access to our private facebook page to hang out with us and other witches just like you, other ways to support the show. If you can't do a monthly donation totally understand, you can always buy us a Ko-fi or buy that which life merchandise on Etsy, like the ancestor spell kits, and also consider becoming an episode sponsor. It's a great way to promote your business to all kinds of witches out there. You can also just purchase a shout out to let people know about whatever event that you're hosting, or if you want to wish your covenant happy samhain since you all can't be together in person, as you should be socially distancing, you can still wish them love through our show. And you can find out more on our website at Are we ready for a word from our sponsors?Hilary 21:15We are all stuck inside, bored, trying to find things to do. There is pretty much no better time to focus on your witchcraft studies and increase your magickal skills. That’s why we are thrilled to have Sacred Mists Academy of Magickal Arts and Sciences as an episode sponsor! Since 2002, Sacred Mists Academy has offered comprehensive online Magickal training programs with working witches around the world including First through Third Degree Wicca training, with an Elder program available for initiates of the Sacred Mists tradition. Other programs include Historical Paganism, Herbalist Certifications, Spell Crafting Classes, Tarot Courses, Reiki Training, and More! There are lots of enriching classes to choose from. Plus, if you just aren’t getting enough of your That Witch Life hosts, our very own Courtney offers a Spellcrafting and Spell Casting certification through Sacred Mists. I’ve attended more than one of her classes over there years and, shhhhh don’t tell her, but they’re always pretty great. So get signed up and level up your spell-casting skills! All courses have their own private groups where students can gather and connect with other students. Students also have access to the Sacred Mists Circle, a completely private, student-only social media platform (NOT facebook!) with profile pages, discussion boards, groups, blogs, a searchable Book of Shadows, videos, music, and more! Other Sacred Mists Academy social groups include witch crafting: if you’re interested in creating your own tools, a divination group to discuss decks and share readings, empath groups to explore this gift and learn about shielding, healing, kitchen witchcraft, and more! Join the Sacred Mists live chats for rituals (sabbats, esbats, healing), live divination readings, study halls, and social gatherings for and by students. To enroll, go to sacred mists academy dot com and enter WITCHLIFE during registration to receive FREE ENROLLMENT, a savings of $30. Monthly tuition then depends on which course or courses you take. Limit one per student, available until December Thirty First, 2020. Manifest The Change You Want To See In Yourself And The World Around You through Sacred Mists Academy. Thank you to Sacred Mists for being an episode sponsor! Courtney 23:19Now, we know you’re already in love with Sacred Mists because of the Academy. Guess what? Sacred Mists also has a shoppe, offering over a thousand witchcraft tools, supplies and gifts including crystals and gemstones, incense and candles, including hand-rolled beeswax spell candles, and other spell supplies. This is literally a one-stop shop for Witchcraft supplies, y’all. Sacred Mists Shoppe also offers over 75 plant seeds specifically curated for the Witch’s garden including healing and magickal herbs, flowers, and plant seeds, just a few of which include belladonna, mandrake, sweetgrass, moonflower, patchouli, elderberry and mugwort, and many more! 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To get 10% off your purchase of $35 or more, go to sacred mists dot come and use code WITCHLIFE at check-out. Offer available until December 31, 2020. Sacred Mists Shoppe: Offering unique and handcraft Witchcraft and Wicca supplies to the Pagan community since 2002. Thank you to Sacred Mists Shoppe AND Sacred Mists Academy for being an episode sponsor! Kanani 25:22I love supporting small farms and herbalists. Fox and Elder is a small farm just north of Nashville, Tennessee run by Sara Schuster, who is an herbalist, herb farmer and plant witch. Their work not only offers a variety of herb-based products, but also offers education on homesteading and herb cultivation. Fox and Elder’s products include teas and tinctures, including a line of Tarot teas based on the Major Arcana. I am a huge fan of elderberry syrup and loved seeing that in their shop, as well as the calming flower bath. Fox and Elder also offers a monthly zine called Full Moon Fill-up that offers tarot spreads, herbal profiles, and recipes. The Samhain issue will have a focus on ancestral work, a Tarot spread for the Full moon in Taurus, and an herbal profile on skullcap. Fox and Elder also offers a podcast called ‘Tending Seeds,’ which covers a variety of homesteading and herbalism topics, available on all major platforms or directly on their website, so be sure to subscribe and add ‘Tending Seeds’ to your listening rotation. Their podcast episodes follow the seasons and do deep-dives into gardening and how to find powerful Magick and healing in different herbs you can find in your yard or just along the road. As a Witch who is learning more about having a witches garden there is a ton of valuable information given in each episode. . To receive 15% off your first purchase of teas, tinctures, or a Full Moon Zine subscription, go to and enter code “thatwitchlife” at check-out. Fox and Elder: meeting you where you are, offering a variety of ways to step onto the plant path. Thank you to Fox and Elder for being an episode sponsor! Courtney 27:10Hey, witches, CONTENT WARNING. This next section includes a survivor story regarding childhood sexual abuse, religious trauma and suicide four minutes 32 to 43. In addition, there is a discussion of mortuary practices from minutes 44 to 50. If you or someone you know is currently experiencing abuse or thoughts of suicide, please contact the Suicide Prevention hotline at 800-273-8255 the trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860 or RAINN the rape abuse and Incest National Network at 800-856-hope well we are delighted to welcome Mortellus, who is the High Priestex of the Coven of Leaves in Western North Carolina, a Gardnerian Coven operating an Outer Court training group who like to say that they are a bubbling cauldron of bitter esoterica slithering their way through Western North Carolina. Additionally, Mortellus is a Mortician, Author, Medium, and Necromantrix. Her book of pagan death rites and rituals for Llewellyn, Do I Have To Wear Black? is set to come out February 8th, 2021 with multiple additional book projects under contract. Currently, she resides on three acres that are hastily becoming overgrown again with her partner, adult child, two-year-old afab/amab twins, and one really, really ridiculous dog. Mortellus, welcome to your people. We're delighted to have you.Mortellus 28:48Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. And yes, my dog is very ridiculous.Courtney 28:54So Mortellus asking you the question we ask everybody who comes on our show. How did you know that you were a witch or a magical person?Mortellus 29:02Oh, that you jumped right into a question that, that question is so tied up in so many parts of my life that it's a it's like just diving into the deep end of the pool not even knowing how to swim. I grew up in an evangelical cult. Just kind of a situation where very conservative, quiverfull family. Courtney 29:26Oh funMortellus 29:27Yeah, it was super fun, especially for a household that had nothing but daughters. So we were we were kept home. My family didn't believe in educating women. So we were homeschooled heavy air quotes around that. And we didn't have television, radio, that kind of stuff. It was a very sort of isolated growing up. So all that to say I did not really have any sort of like media or books or ideas about witchcraft or paganism or any of those things, they just did not exist in my sphere of thought. And then something terrible happened and I met a goddess, and I guess I just was a witch before I knew there was a word for itCourtney 30:19I'm thankful thankful for you escaping that situation. And for finding the goddess and for doing the wonderful work that you do so as a mortician, which is I'm so happy to hear that because a lot of people don't realize that for ages, since maybe time immemorial, you know, the mortuary work was not the domain of men, it was the domain of people who were you know, more femme or were women. And now, so when I meet people that are, like, either identify as women or as as non binary, and they're doing mortuary work, I'm so excited, because it just feels like it's coming home to the right place. But yeah, what drew you to mortuary work?Mortellus 31:08First, I would like to say, Yeah, you're definitely right there. Up until the Civil War, it was all women's work, and then pushing on into the 1960s, even, it was very predominantly leaning toward the matriarch of the family to take care of the dead. But as anything, when something becomes an industry, it becomes the realm of men, you know, corporate ideas about making money. And you know, we're coming back around the other side of it, which I think is great. At the time, I went through mortuary school, I think the nationwide statistic was something like 80% of incoming students were female, female identifying or femme in some way.Hilary 31:52Wow, that's amazing. That's hugeMortellus 31:53Yeah it's really fascinating to just see it sort of coming back around the other side. And then you have all these instructors who are just like these nice like antique white guysCourtney 32:03that makes me think of dirtymannequins in the back of the JC Penny that's about to close my town.Mortellus 32:13That's mortuary school. You're just described it. I've been in classrooms where the corpse look more alive than the instructorsHilary 32:22Oh, my God.Courtney 32:24OOOHHHH that's such a burn and yet I'm no no, that that must be true. So um, so do tell us the What drew you to mortuary work in the first place?Mortellus 32:37So as I mentioned, I did not grow up with the most awesome of people. I guess when I was five years old, the worst thing that's ever happened to me happened. I was raped by an adult man in our church congregation. And it was one of those situations where I already knew my parents weren't safe people I didn't really have people to run to. But I tried, which ultimately resulted in a lot of speeches. How about how it either was not true, or I should not tell people it's true, because nobody would want to marry me anymore because it wasn't pure and all that garbage. I wound up on Sunday morning standing in front of a church congregation, sort of being explained to about how I had tempted this person and caused them to sin. Courtney 33:42Oh, my GodMortellus 33:44All this horrible stuff. And they told me I do apologize to him and forgive him.Hilary 33:54Oh my god, I'm so sorry that that happened to you.Mortellus 33:58Yeah, it was it was it was pretty trash. I'm not gonna lie. I had to ask God to forgive me and all this publicly, of course. And I remember the moment and looking back on it, I can tell that I was just totally disassociated, because what do you do you just go hollow? You know, you just you just go through the motions of whatever people are saying at you. And I remember listening to this man talk about how he how he needed to rededicate his life and he picked that moment, that fucking moment to announce that he wanted to become a minister that he felt called. He never looked me in the eye the whole time. And not only did he become a minister, he came to lead Children's Services. Hilary 34:54Oh my god. Mortellus 34:55Nothing ever came it. After that. train wreck that I found myself in front of, you know, the regular minister got up and he gave the Sunday morning sermon. And what he decided to talk about on that particular day was suicide, and how it is a sin? And he talked about how if a person took their own life, which was a thing that never occurred to my five year old, so that you did not get to go to heaven, and you did not get to see your family or anyone you knew ever again. And I went fuck yes, that sounds great actually. What occur to me in a moment was that maybe the devil wasn't a bad guy, that if all of these people hated him, that maybe he was okay. And that hell was for hiding people from the good church people, like those around meHilary 35:57Who would really dangerous, you knowMortellus 35:59Right. And again, I was a little kid. And this was just how it struck me in a moment. And I was traumatized. And then just a lot. So I went home and remembered that I was told I was never to touch my father's heart pills, because they were dangerous. And if you made them you would die, after everyone was asleep, that's exactly what I did. I took the bottle into the hallway of the house, because for some reason, hallways seemed like a place people traveled to other places from. And I wanted to be very purposeful about where I was going. And I remember laying on the carpet, and feeling very heavy, and sort of sinking through floor. Everybody talks about sort of a light at the end of the tunnel, or all that kind of stuff that is not at all what I experienced. Remember, sort of floating downward like, like you're in a pool of water, a bathtub, just floating, falling further and further away from the hallway. And I remember the nightlight getting further and further away. And it went on like this for a long time. Finally, I felt like I've landed somewhere soft like like furs, like a big shaggy dog or bunny rabbit. And I just laid there, and I cannot begin to express to you how it felt like I laid there forever. For all of fucking time, just wait there until nothing hurt anymore. And it wasn't afraid and I felt at peace. Eventually, I came to feel like I couldn't stay there anymore. That I wasn't meant to. And I got up and started walking. And I remember distinctly stepping off the fur onto the ground because it felt so cold, like putting your bare foot on a cement basement floor. And just this damp air that I could feel this expanse just sort of swallowing me up like I could have walked in any direction forever. And after just going for a bit, I saw this the light in the distance. And it was sort of this cool soft light like the moon. And as I got closer to it, I saw that the light was coming from a woman. And she had this warm flowing green dress and big green eyes and dark hair. And I remember she had a knife on her hip and her feet were bare. That sticks out to me when I remember it. And I remember thinking that her dress looked very fine, but also well worn. If this was someone that wasn't they weren't fussy. This was someone who worked in stress. And she leaned down on her knees, eye level and looked me in the eye to speak to me and was the first time anyone had ever done that. And it was such a powerful moment for me because I felt seen and for once in my life recognized and important. And she hugged me and held me a long time and to this day, if things are hard, I still just sort of remember what that embrace felt like. And I won't say everything that she said to me because it's mine. But she told me that that I was her child now and that I had to be strong that I had work to do that I couldn't leave yet. And then I woke up in a hospital bed with a bald doctor yelling at me about eating pills. "They aren't candy." I was a little girl who had no frame of reference for any place or person or thing like that. But still, it was so real to me. And I know now that I was in a coma for four days and that during that time, I died for about eight minutes, and was resuscitated. But connecting with that moment and knowing that I don't know there's there's something about knowing exactly, definitively what's waiting for you is very powerful, and I feel very calm about death. I'm not afraid of it because I've seen it, I felt it. I know what it felt like to die. I know what it looked like to die. I know where I went and what I saw what that place was for me. And it's always a little bit with me, I don't feel like it ever really left me behind. And over time, I came to the conclusion that the deity that I met in the underworld was The Morrigan. And I made oaths to her and became devoted to her work. And in my early 20s, I wound up doing hospice care, a lot of hospice volunteering, as I sort of came to terms with being a medium and just kind of connecting with that work and wanted to sort of look death in the face in a practical way, I wanted to see the other side of it. But it wasn't enough. And over time, I came to realize that I I really needed to be in that liminal space. We think about those spaces between life and death as being comas or being being unconscious and those kinds of things but the most liminal space you can find is in an embalming room. You're dead that not yet very dear soul, residing with your body until it meets its interment a true in between. And I wanted to be a guardian of those spaces, and do the work that she sent me back to do.Hilary 42:39That's so it's such a beautiful journey, you know, I think and it's, it rings so clear to me, like how meant for that space you are, you know, because I think that the experiences we have, especially the ones that are that traumatic, or that we experienced that, you know, that form us and a lot of ways, from trauma, I think that there's something that we often connect to there, that is really powerful. And, you know, just hearing you speak about it, it's, I mean, it's, it makes complete sense that that pathway to where you are now from there makes such sense to me. And what a gift for people who for, you know, for those that have passed to have someone caring for them, that has that connection, because that's, you know, as you've said, it's, that's not probably the usual person that they would deal with, you know, especially, you know, in a more corporate funeral environment. So I think it's really powerful for those passed on and those spirits to have that connection that is that is, is willing to connect with them, rather than just write them off as something that doesn't exist, you know,Courtney 44:05Exactly. And then for the living I, one of the passages in your book that I really liked was that you give a very no nonsense, I'll even go say friendly description of what happens to a human body once it's in the hands of a mortician, and you even link the practice of embalming back to the American Civil War and I'm wondering if you might give our listeners a bit of a preview of what that journey is like for the body once it once it gets to the mortician's hands.Mortellus 44:35I would like to say I there's there's the sort of push in many communities to write off embalming as ghoulish, environmentally friendly, outdated, unwanted, but I really think that's the wrong answer. I think that there's this PR problem, right, everybody looks at embalming and they think well, we're just cutting holes in people and running chemicals through their body and pickling them like cucumbers or whatever. But I really caution people to think about the history of the word, embalming means to preserve or to impart a good smell. So if you've ever canned a vegetable, you've embalmed if you've ever sprayed air freshener in a smelly bathroom, you've embalmed. It's about making pleasant what might otherwise be unpleasant. Your embalmer can be your ally in ritual. Embalming is a process, not a bottle of formaldehyde. So really think about what it can give you and what you can take away from that as useful within your pagan practice. If you have a green burial or home burial, that's, well and good and wonderful, but not everyone can do those things. They can be very expensive. And they can be impossible for people who don't own their own land, for example. And if you're being really honest, not everyone is prepared to look at death, like they think they might be. It isn't always pleasant or kind. It's not necessarily the the postcard that the green burial industry wants us to to look at. It can be very tough. So as to what might happen behind the scenes, your loved ones remains, or not remains, will be delivered to a funeral home or mortuary. The first thing that we would do is give you a bath. We would take shampoo, soap, all the ordinary stuff. Scrub you from head to toe, wash your hair, give you a haircut, if you need it, shave your legs, if they're fresh and it looks like some something I usually do. Trim your beard, your mustache. Take q-tips to your ears, trimming nails, paint the lips, all that stuff. It's like your best day at the spa. If rigor mortis has said, one of the ways that we relieve that is by giving the deceased a massage. Rigor mortis is really just lactic acid building up in your muscles just like after you've worked out at the gym, you know, your muscles feel kind of stiff. If you've never moved again, that's what rigor mortis is. Because after you die, the pH in your body begins to change rapidly, it becomes much more acidic. So you get all that stiffness. So what we do is we just massage the muscles and move the limbs until it relaxes, and they can be moved again. Hilary 48:00I was just gonna say that's really beautiful. That's such caretaking.Mortellus 48:03Oh, yeah, absolutely. Usually, even the most secular or the most Baptist of morticians usually has music to play. Often we'll pick something that we think that person might have liked, like if this person was born in the 30s and they were in their prime and 50s, we might pick that kind of music, you know? We put a lot of thought into what we're doing behind the scenes. But after we've given everyone a nice bath, we make a small incision on the right side of the body near the collarbone, to raise an artery, raise some vessels and insert a canula. And we begin living fluids or water through the system to flush the circulatory system. One of the reasons that we do this is there's a lot of bacteria in the body that immediately begins taking over after you die. And that's one of the things that can lead to an unpleasant appearance or bloating or all those things somebody might not like to see at their funeral. So even just rinsing through the system with water, or glycerin or solutions with a essential oil, there's all manner of sort of green processes we can use, or formaldehyde and that that's what the family wants, or we need more preservation like they're, they're being shipped out by airplane or to another state. So we push all that through the system. I just I always try and make the argument that it's you know, it is a ritual and it is a service that we're doing to try and make sure that the families have a pleasant experience. And that's not to say that green burials or home burials aren't that, I'm also a huge, huge advocate of those, but I think there's a place for all of those things. Courtney 49:50So you went you also mentioned in your book how funeral rites, even if they're non religious are half are just culturally heavily influenced by Christianity. But now that we're having more people who are asking for specific burials that are attuned to them being a witch, what do you find is different about a witches funeral than a Christian influenced funeral.Mortellus 50:13I mean, that that list is far too long to make for this for this show, we can do that all night. But a huge, just really simple, small thing that nobody thinks about is seating. And you walk into any funeral home, they usually have a chapel, they're generally decked out with some gently Christian iconography, but funeral homes remove any kind of religious or political iconography for certain Burial Rites. So that's not unfamiliar to them, if you ask for it, but they're always arranged, like a like a chapel, with the row seating. And for most pagan funerals, you would want circular seating. So that's, that's a big one, I think, because so many funeral homes aren't really set up for that they have the pews will be sort of anchored in place, or they're not really sensible to move. That's something to deal with.Hilary 51:10Are there any, you know, is? I guess my question would be like, so if I was planning, you know, my funeral, and I didn't want it to be at all, Christian or any, any other religion, but also wanted to make sure that by default, that didn't mean that it was just non religious, you know, so because I think that, I mean, my my question would be like, I think many, many, as many, as you mentioned, like many places are accustomed to be prepared for, for a Christian or, or other large religion, faith. But, you know, maybe they wouldn't be for someone who is pagan, or, or practices, other forms of magic? Is there something that you could help us or help our listeners understand if they're approaching this for themselves or for a loved one? Is there something they should be asking? Is there are there resources out there for them to to find so that they can tailor it to their religious or their spiritual views? Mortellus 52:19That is a good question. And the sorry, an unfortunate answer is that there's not a lot of resources out there. And it's one reason why I wanted to bring this to the table, I hoped that my book could be that since we didn't have anything else, like you guys have had the review copy to take a peek at. And so you know, that, that I tried to address everyone, not just the dying or the family. But guests who might not be pagan, or industry professionals who need some clues as to what to offer that family. Because we have so little resources, and I wanted to put something out there. But I've also started a group online, and people can reach out to me about it through my website, . But I've been building a Resource Network of pagan and pagan friendly, funeral directors, mortuary workers and so on. So if I can refer you to people in your area.Hilary 53:21That's amazing.Mortellus 53:22And myself and others are willing to travel to families wherever they are, or act as a liaison to their, their funeral home of choice, and so on. To help connect them with what they need.Hilary 53:36That's so brilliant. I think that especially because, you know, especially for people that are in areas, or if if, you know, paying for someone to travel is something that they can't do, I think it would be amazing to have a resource to be able to reach out to someone and say, hey, can you I mean, either to provide them with the book or to say, hey, here's a contact, so that if you so that, you know, because when I've had to plan a funeral of my mom, and when you're in that space, you're like, so overwhelmed on so many levels, that you're kind of like trying, it's like you're like, Okay, I just need to get through this. And so you don't want to have to, it's hard to I think dig through the specifics there. You need some guidance. So I think it's brilliant to have a contact that you can reach out to and say, hey, can you know, can you help explain this to my funeral director or can I hand my funeral director this packet of information because I'm distraught and can't think straight? You know, I love that.Mortellus 54:39And that's really that's really what I wanted this to be as well. You were talking about not everyone being able to afford to bring someone in this is probably going to shoot myself in the foot right now but more than once, I have definitely just provided my services pro bono and covered my own travel to go help a family out because that's what you do. That's, that's what our community is. HHilary 55:04How beautiful Mortellus 55:04Death is something that every single one of us will face. And it was the author, Misha Magdalen who wrote Outside the Charmed Circle sort of jokingly told me after reading my book that, you know, religion, we had one job, paganism had one job and we dropped the ball, we did not address the one thing that every single person regardless of tradition, or belief, or ideas would face.Courtney 55:32YeahMortellus 55:32So I'm trying to fill that gap. And that's what we have to be from what we need for each other.Courtney 55:39That's so it's so powerful. So one question that the through your work what have what have you seen, witches typically request either in their own funerals or in the funerals of their loved ones?Mortellus 55:53I will say that the something that I've found is that more often than not, they don't request anything. And that's the honest truth. They just, they take the secular humanist funeral or whatever's available, and they just go on, and they say, I'll get through this day and I'll think about it later. And then they don't, and that breaks my heart, that they're afraid to push and are afraid to ask, especially in the moments when they're grieving. You know, whatever you think about yourself today, in your heaviest, you know you said, you planned your mother's funeral could you have on that day, found it in yourself to push? It's too hard sometimes. But behind the scenes, when I listen to people talk about what they wish they could do over what they would have had they, they asked for outdoor services, they want to be in nature. They're asking for tokens from the prep room and I think, because what funeral homes told them that it's illegal or wrong, or, or they're afraid that it's getting a bad impression of both pagans and witches, but there's nothing wrong with asking for the water, your loved one was washed with a bottle of it or asking for a little bit of blood, a few drops on clothes, or a piece of paper or even a vial of it for your ancestor altar, whatever. There's nothing wrong with saying I want to come in and be there or wash the body with consecrated water or I can't stand to be in the room but can I consecrate this water and salt for you to use an their bath, like these are things you can do.Courtney 57:40So it's so much more as not just the service, it's about the whole process, that that there's the awkward, there's the potential to be involved with not you know, from the moment of death up until the burial or cremation.Mortellus 57:54Right? And isn't that really the difference between us and them? I really hate playing the game. Christians are all about the service. It's about the one day a week or maybe the two days a week where they go and they sit and they listen. Pagans are, we're hands on. We're about the everyday experience of what our faith is. And that's what we are that's a difference we have in funerary needs as well. It's about being hands on every step of the way, not just in that service.Courtney 58:32I think what what is you just sticking so much out for me in our conversation is how, from your work, you said that most witches don't plan for their funeral. And they don't they there is because we don't have like a common a common ceremony to rest upon the way that other mainstream religions might. There is going to be a lot that we need to either leave for our loved ones or it feels ike we would feel like witches really need to be proactive about leaving some notes behind because you don't want to leave that on, on your your loved ones to try to figure it out for you.Mortellus 59:09I know I keep saying this. But you know, that's another. That's one of the reasons why I wrote this book. I really want people to think about this. And we just don't have things. And I think there's this sort of there's a lot of stigma about saying you're a witch and in the funeral industry there's this sort of, you know, I'll harken back to my previous statement, this antique white guy club thinks that everyone deserves a Christian burial. Regardless the life they live, I want you to have what they think is right. And it's so much easier to fight for something if you can say here, this page in this book, that is what we are doing, that you have something that they can look at and definitively say okay, that's not a weird thing that this family is asking for. This is an actual thing that people do. It's in print for you That that has power it has weight.Courtney 1:00:03But you know basically the title of your book you say Do I have to wear black because obviously, you know the black does not the color you have to have on when I'm when Hilary and I lost a classmate in high school the requirement was everybody wear bright colors because she never wore black you know, so we're all like wearing pink and blue and bright things, but I'd love to ask you so if you were to design a witch's funeral, what would you love to see happen? Mortellus 1:00:29That kind of depends on witch I suppose. I myself renourish traditional witch practice British traditional witchcraft. I'm a third degree gardnerian so I would want something in keeping with that tradition. So what I would want is I would have a very scandalous funeral by funeral standardsCourtney 1:00:51Ooohh tell us about this scandalous funeralHilary 1:00:53Yeah, I want to hear this.Mortellus 1:00:56If I could have anything I wanted, I would I would be open air cremated, I would be burned on a burial pyre. And there are people lobbying for it and maybe eventually we'll have it but for now, it's not really something I can legally have. So I will likely be cremated unless my husband is willing to break a lot of laws which he swears he will but I won't I won't hold him at fault he doesn'tHilary 1:01:20I'll totally back him up if he wants to do that.Mortellus 1:01:22We can all throw torches at my corpse. But Courtney 1:01:25I'm there Hilary 1:01:26I'm inMortellus 1:01:26I would like to be arranged skyclad for my visitations. Holding ritual original tools with my my coffin draped in, in red gauze. And I did say coffin on purpose. I want a coffin, not a casket. And like the anthropomorphic style. So and draped in red fabric, it's exactly how I would like to go into the fire as well. So put it right back over.Hilary 1:01:55That's beautiful. I love that.Mortellus 1:01:57But what's something that's really important for me is that I would like my obituary to plainly state that I was a witch, I want to leave that statement behind for you know, whatever, weird old ladies by newspapers these days. I want someone to read that and know that that's what I was.Hilary 1:02:22I love that and I can imagine I can imagine these ladies like, you know, like the the like 2% of the population that still buys paper. And you know, and they've been they've been flipping through through and they're going "oh that's..... WHAT???Mortellus 1:02:37I told my spouse that I obviously I won't have like a headstone. Right. But I would like to have a permanent marker. And what I want is to have a bench donated to one of the local parks. And I would like to have a plaque that gives my information and I would like it to also plainly state that I was a witch, because I like to imagine that 100 years from now, like local kids dare each other and like midnight on Halloween to sit on witch bench or whatever. Courtney 1:03:09YESHilary 1:03:10Oh my god. What?Courtney 1:03:12It should read I dare you to sit here at midnight on Halloween, little one!Hilary 1:03:17I mean, like that. I mean, I can't like that would have been us when we were in high school in middle school. Like we would have been like I would have been Oh my god. Have you? Have you been to the witch bench? And you know, there's you sit on it at the stroke of midnight on the full moon you know?Courtney 1:03:35Or some thruple out there's gonna be like, I'm gonna lose my virginity on that. You know, it's gonna you know, you're inviting all of this. I want there be like stupid local legends about how I like burn down farm house with a bunch of cows, or something or whatever kids think ofHilary 1:03:53Oh my god. Yeah. You know, like, weird stories that kids come up with. Yeah, I mean, that's so brilliant. Because again, it's like, I'm all for people being just abundantly proud of who they are. You know, right. And I love I love that that would be like, yeah, look at this beautiful bench you're sitting on this person lived a practicing witch, you know, like, right. This is, you know, a memory of them, whatever, whatever it says, you know?Mortellus 1:04:24And like, you know, and it's everyone that's too weird to sit on it like oh, no, like Satanism. Well, it's not for you. Fuck off It's not fucking for you1:04:34It's only for the wierdos misterHilary 1:04:36Yeah, you're like, you're literally you're like, you're like all of the benches are for you. But not this one. Not fucking this one, Karen. Mortellus 1:04:46This is for all the kids like making Halloween memories and for that thruple fuckin and for like, elderly people feeding birds. That's who it's for. Hilary 1:04:57Yes.Courtney 1:04:59Yes. Oh my god, I love this so much. That strange little one who was he was drawing pictures of those pigeons and glaring at all their bullies over the edge of the notebook. That's what the bench is forMortellus 1:05:10that's who I married, that's my spouse you just described perfectlyCourtney 1:05:19Which gears a little bit here? We have a listener question we would love for you to weigh in on it says "hi there all the way out of South Africa." Hello, South Africa. Hello, Mortellus I think you are just the right person to answer this. "I am new to exploring witchcraft. And as someone who grew up in a hardcore Christian, conservative family, and community, I must say my mind is spinning sometimes. I have so many questions, and I really do not know who to turn to for these questions. I hope you guys do not mind me reaching out" We do not mind you reaching out, we don't mind anybody reaching out. "I only have one question that really presses on my heart a lot at this moment. Where can I find someone to help me understand and learn more? Is there any safe way to attract a mentor or teacher to myself?"Mortellus 1:06:08Ooh, that's a tough question. Really, that is, in a lot of ways, too. Because I mean, obviously, we're going to have these vast cultural differences as well, between what is safe and what isn't. I think for me, kind of in the background that I had, and know how dangerous it can be kind of declaring yourself something or trying to find those things when people around you have strong feelings about what that means. And I think with all the mission churches that exist in that part of the world, this person is probably in in a situation not unlike what I grew up in, just culturally, at least the the idea is that those kinds of groups press on their communities. I don't know, what they might have in terms of library access, or those kinds of things. And finding a mentor really depends on what they're seeking, specifically, be it a certain tradition, or just information in general. But I will say this, I do believe firmly that every person that seeks, finds their way to information as directed by the universe. So that means to me that this question came to the four of us on this night on this day, because the gods wanted it to. So I will honor that direction from the universe and say that if this listener wants to write to me at acrowandthedead@, I will happily send them electronic versions of a few books to read. And I will happily answer any future questions that they might have.Hilary 1:08:00What a beautiful offer, first of allCourtney 1:08:01So lovely. Thank you for for making that available. And listener, I hope that young take Mortellus up on this offer, they do want to help you a couple other resources. I really agree that with what Mortellus said, you know, we do want you to be careful and be safe where you are, yes, there are some great online resources that if you're not able to find a person in person, the three that I recommend is Temple of Witchcraft is you they you can all their stuff is online, you can certainly connect with them. If you self identify as female, and you're attracted toward kind of the Welsh, Welsh practices, Sisterhood of Avalon is another option. And if you are of any gender and are more drawn toward Irish practices, the Irish Pagan School and I know those latter two are a little more tradition specific. But you could always just check them out and see if they're your flavor. Temple of witchcraft is a little more universal.Hilary 1:09:00You know, some of those communities are international and may have connections to people that they personally know in your area, if they or if you you are looking for someone that's in your area, or if they don't, you know, when it's safe to travel that you could maybe travel to at some point, I just think that I always you know, the more you can connect to a greater community, the more that those resources are, I think that makes them a little bit easier to find. And then yes, of course connect to Mortellus and what a gift to offer thatKanani 1:09:29I also think Sacred Mists is a good option. Hilary 1:09:32Yes, Sacred Mists. Kanani 1:09:33I think they have a wide variety of things. That someone who's maybe newer coming in. There's such a variety that I think they might really kind of Yeah, I think it's a big it's such a it's such a wide ask because I feel like when you're new you don't really know what you want to know more about yet because you're kind of trying to know a little bit about everything. So I think kind of that's part of it is first just kind of get your hands on everything you can. And I think online learning, especially with everyone having to be socially distance is just so such a good resource right now. And just kind of learn about lots of stuff. And I think then as you start to kind of whittle down what really calls to you, I feel like then you're also going to kind of start to find certain people are drawn to or you're drawn to them. And, and I feel like things like that then tend to manifest themselves. But I mean, I think at this point, when you're new, just learn everything you can learn and learn about everything that interests you. Because I get nervous when people say that they're new to it, and they want to mentor, because then I feel like it's almost like they want someone to tell them how this works. And that's not really how a mentor kind of works. Mentor will help you once you know what you want to kind of help you find it. But they're not going to tell you what to look for, or, you know, tell you, this is the right path for you. That's kind of for you to find on your own. So I would say if you're in the beginning, really just learn about everything you can get your hands on. And then once you start to kind of start clicking with things, you'll start to develop a community of people and and mentors and community will kind of naturally manifest itself. Mortellus 1:11:28I will say this to the while I agree with your comments about mentors, that sometimes that kind of ask can be about needing companionship and friendship and family within this newfound thing that you're seeking. I get that more than most being completely estranged from my birth family and just kind of finding my way into the craft such a solitary person as I was at the time, not just in my craft, but in my life. I just did not have people and our question asker may be very isolated like I was, maybe this need for a mentor is also just a need for a friend. And I get that respect that I honor it.Courtney 1:12:19Thank you. I think there's I think that's a good important reminder, especially in these these challenging, troubling times. Community his community is ever more precious than ever. So thank you for being on the show tonight. So how can people find you if they'd like to follow your work or stay in touch?Mortellus 1:12:40That's a good question. I have a link tree at @acrowandthedead with a lot of fun stuff. My website is . If you try either of those things as a as a backslash at most places, you'll find meCourtney 1:12:58Just thanks, everybody, for listening. And as a reminder, if you want to support the show, the best way is to subscribe on your favorite platform and spread the word. Please Please also consider leaving us a rating and review us on Apple podcasts. It helps so much to get the word out. You can also buy us a Ko-fi check out our merchant or Etsy store and for bonus content, become a supporter on Patreon. We are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And so for show notes, audio transcript or to ask us a question to talk about on a future episode. Go to until then, friends keep moting that shit. We'll talk to you next week.Hilary 1:13:36Bye. Mortellus 1:13:36Bye Thank you so much for having me. (Exit Music) 1:13:38Find us at for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be.Hilary 1:13:52He humped your husband? Kanani 1:13:54No, he was like I didn't see what was happening. But apparently Brian said he was like air humping while like staring at my husband.Hilary 1:14:03OMGKanani 1:14:03 Like, hey, that's how I got pregnant twice. Let's not go thereCourtney 1:14:09air humping while staring at your husband? That's how it happened?Kanani 1:14:13That's what I tell people. I can't I can't be held responsible for this. I just woke up and they were there. That's all I know. ................
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