CULTURE RESET



Culture Reset Podcast: Jackie WylieThis transcript is intended to provide wider access to the associated podcast. On a few occasions the exact meaning of a speakers point may be unclear from the transcript. If you are able to, we suggest you use the audio podcast as the main way of following this conversation.Hello and welcome to Postcards to the Future, the podcast that listens into the artists, producers, publishers and directors who are shaping the future of arts and culture. I'm David Micklem and today my guest is Jackie Wylie, Artistic Director and Chief Executive of the National Theatre of Scotland.National Theatre Scotland is a theatre without walls that showcases Scottish culture in Scotland and around the world, with new stories told in new ways. Jackie forged her energetic and passionate voice as Artistic Director of The Arches, Glasgow's legendary powerhouse of new performance, where, at the age of 28, she was the youngest serving director of a major Scottish venue. Here, she championed a generation of new Scottish talent, bringing artists including Kieran Hurley, Garry McNair, Rosana Cade, Rob Drummond and Nic Green to an international audience. Theatre critic Lynn Gardner described The Arches under Wylie as “one of the reasons that in recent years, Glasgow has become a magnet for young performance makers. As significant as Battersea Arts Centre in London in the way it nurtures tomorrow.” She's a firebrand, a magnet for talent, and has a producer's eye for bringing the best fresh voices to an audience. David MicklemJackie, welcome to the podcast. Jackie WylieThanks, David. David MicklemIt's great to have you here today. So tell me, what have you been up to these last few months? What's been going on for you? Both, you personally and for National Theatre Scotland? Jackie WylieSo, National Theatre of Scotland at the very beginning of lockdown, because we are the only theatre in Scotland that exists without walls - and without walls means we're a producing company rather than a building - we realised really early on in COVID, that we had a responsibility to carry on making work because we weren’t facing the same existential challenges that either the smaller non building-based companies or the large building-based institutions who were reliant on income were facing. Because we travel all over Scotland, we highly subsidise the work that we do. So the irony was that when we started cancelling work, it actually didn't … when other organisations were cancelling work, it meant that they weren't receiving the ticket income that they planned. But when we cancelled work, it meant we weren't having to travel to the Hebrides at, you know, a great kind of pence-per-head subsidy. With the awareness of that, we realised that we had to carry on making works. The irony is that we've been like the busiest we've ever been, for me personally in my entire working life, but also as a company, there were certain people within the organisation with young kids or with caring responsibilities who we had to furlough, so there's been a core team of us that have been working from home since March, delivering this programme of, which started off as a kind of digital offer and then we shifted later on (which we could talk about more) into more of a kind of hybridised, filmic model of working. So, yeah, it's been a very intense time.And it's nice to have a moment doing this to actually reflect on what that is actually meant, because I think our head of HR said a weekly update to the team about wellbeing, just trying to stay connected to everybody, and I just read, I only actually had time, ironically, only had time to read the subject line and just check that the emails are coming. But it said something (I can't remember the exact number of weeks) but this sort of jovial opening line was like this has nearly been going on for half a year. And and I was just ‘What? What?’ It was like a shock to my system, to realise that actually months have gone on and the like company has still been carrying on over that time. David MicklemAnd you've been juggling this whole period, being a mum too, and we're talking at the end of August, kids have just gone back to school. So how has that been for you personally? You've been spinning plates. Jackie WylieWe were joking, weren't we, that I had some kind of form of PTSD [laughs] and thinking that the nurseries and the schools going back would be a time for a peacefulness in my soul. But actually, it's just giving me an opportunity to understand what we've been through. But I also I'm really hyper aware that everybody has had a different experience through the pandemic. And actually I live in a house with my family and I'm really safe and secure and I'm really fortunate I have a salary. So I'm like so conscious of my own privilege at the moment when it comes to talking about what we've all been through, because it's not the same either for, you know, I live in the Southside of Glasgow and there are really, you know, just to my left when I go out my door is a set of high rises and the experience of the people in those buildings, I think everyday will be different. It feels ridiculous to complain about anything.But at the same time, I also have a baby. I was on my maternity leave last year and then coming back. I had three weeks coming back off my maternity leave. So in all honesty, I am … at the beginning when we were doing our team meetings on Zoom, I was like still breastfeeding on those Zoom meetings and dealing with all of the emotions around that. And even that now feels like a decade ago. And sometimes I look at the baby crawling around and I think I've not seen you for a couple of weeks because [both laugh] I’ve been working so intensely from home. That’s terrible. No one has to call the social worker [laughs].David MicklemNo social workers should be called!I wanted to take you back Jackie to your earlier experiences of theatre. When you and I first met, you were running The Arches where you forged a reputation, a brilliant reputation, for kind of championing a new generation of Scottish artists making genuinely challenging, interesting work. And I wondered where that kind of came from. Where did you first come into contact with a form of theatre that wasn't the kind of well-made play that might be put on at one of our more traditional playhouse's?Jackie WylieI actually started in film and TV, so I started out doing locations, like location management and location scouting after like studying theatre and film. And then going into film and the problem I had with film was I felt really artistically removed from the sort of means of production which anybody that's worked in film will understand what that means. It’s like a bigger machine than theatre production. And actually, I was kind of compelled to want. A programming job came up in The Arches, and I was compelled back towards theatre - which I’d like started off as an actor and a performer like we all do when we’re like at uni. (luckily, there's no evidence of it so far) [laughs] - because I wanted to be closer to the actual communication between the audience and what was happening on stage. And obviously the work at The Arches is kind of like the ultimate example of that because there was an urgency and a rawness and a vitality to the way that those artists were communicating at the time and a lot of the work at The Arches also came out of a kind of economic necessity of the moment. Like, the Arches model has a mythology around it, doesn't it, which is like - and you know, David, because you’ve worked with me on this towards later on in that journey - but the mythology of The Arches was that, like, the club nights generated this huge amount of income. But actually, the machine of keeping the people safe in the club nights and the kind of scale of the institution meant that the arts programme, actually - just to use the word of the moment - pivoted out of necessity. And kind of those artists were kind of making work against the odds weren’t they because of the strength of their voice and the strength of what they had to say as writers or performers, of which was a really compelling moment for Scotland in a way. David MicklemAnd I know that sort of whatever it is, four, five years on, people still mourning the loss of that incredible space. There was definitely magic in those railway arches. Very similar in some ways to the kind of the mythologies around Battersea Arts Centre. I'm just wondering, is there, from your perspective, other spaces, either in Glasgow or across Scotland, that have got that same kind of commitment to new talent? Are you seeing other kind of DIY spaces opening up? Notwithstanding the fact that everything's in a state of closure at the moment. But are there other sources and nexuses of new talent? Jackie WylieI think the thing about The Archers was the physical building came to embody the values of the institution in a way that I haven't really seen many … maybe Battersea Arts Centre actually is another good example of that, where there is something about the spirit of what happens inside the building that is ingrained into the physicality of the space. But the thing about The Arches was it was a subcultural space that celebrated difference. So you went into The Arches and you felt that whoever you were and whatever your background was and whoever you're, kind of your queerness, in the broadest sense, was held safely and celebrated. And there isn't another space.And in all honesty, that is about gentrification, you know, that that a space, a subcultural space has been lost and that physical space can't be replicated.But I think across the city, there are programmes of artistic work which have in some way taken the work of the artistic output. You know, the Take Me Somewhere festival, which came out of the programme of The Arches, is going really strong at The Tramway and the work that LJ Findlay-Walsh is doing in her role at the Tramway is like championing that type of experiment. And I think also some of the work at the Tron [Theatre] that Andy [Arnold] and his team are doing, there's a kind of laboratory element to the some of the work at Tron. I think cities do evolve and change and, you know, the cultural theatrical offer evolves and changes. And some of that space has been taken up by others. And some of it is still lost, I think.David MicklemAnd I've heard you talk before, Jacky, about being a child of the 90s and the power of clubbing culture to create community in that sense of shared experience. I'm a bit older than you, but I also had some similar experiences.I wonder, beyond the pandemic, what do you think the roaring 20s might offer? In terms of a kind of new set of opportunities for younger people who are looking for shared experience. I’m thinking beyond theatre at the moment, just as a cultural phenomenon. Jackie WylieYou know, it's sort of fascinating, such a fascinating question, because I think politically, our social relationship to the idea of young people and youth is going to be so critical going forward. So many conversations I've had of people of all generations. It's like what's going to happen next? And I'm talking really specifically, as you say, outwith theatre, I think young people are desperate for like self-expression, self-actualisation. And that might happen through like hedonism, resurgence of rave culture, who knows. I think it's really fascinating, if you've seen Kieran Hurley’s Beats, which had this journey from like a commission at The Arches, and now is this amazing kind of cult, early cult status film about Scotland’s relationship to that kind of post-Thatcher, post-industrial rave scene. And when I when I think of what's gonna happen next, I'm, just go and watch Beats because like, there is a moment when, like Beats comes out of a moment where young people have not been heard. Young people have you know, people are making decisions at the moment on behalf of young people who aren't necessarily enfranchised in the same way. Yes, I think I think there's something … I'm not saying there's going to be a revolution, but I think we should be prepared [laughs].David MicklemThere’s hope for one. Yeah, brilliant. I wanted to come to Scotland and many of us who live and work outside of Scotland are looking at your country now with kind of great envy really. You know, the leadership, political and cultural, seems to have a very different kind of measure to certainly the experience of being in England at the moment. And we're wishing perhaps the rest of the UK was a bit more Scottish right now. I'm just wondering if you can give us a sense beyond the headlines of what it's like to be a Scot in Scotland. Jackie WylieThat is a really complicated question to answer right now, particularly because of the seismic, social and cultural change that's happening. The pandemic has happened. And obviously we are, you know - speaking as a person now, rather than on behalf of National Theatre Scotland that has no relationship to one political government - but I personally am so proud of the way that the leadership of Scotland has taken us through the pandemic and the clarity and long-termism of our approach to the pandemic. Like there is something about the way our political leadership have seen the long game as being more important than the short term vote-winning approach that might have been taken.But then, of course, that is intersecting with a completely new, unfortunately, terribly, it’s new, but the reality is a new awareness of Scotland's relationship to colonialism through the Black Lives Matter movement. So there is something about intense civic pride because our national cultural values are ones of … at the moment we feel like we’re celebrating difference and tolerance, and inclusivity in a way that Scotland is seeking to define itself as different from the rest of the UK through an amazing set of values. But at the same time, we're also, in order to go forward in a positive way, we have to look back at the colonial – like, pain is an understatement – like, you know, the relationship that we have to slavery and to the terrible moments in our history. So I think it's a really complicated time to talk about national cultural identity. David MicklemAnd that brings me on to a question I want to ask about the pandemic and how that's impacted on your thinking, and I guess National Theatre Scotland's, around inequalities in our society, inequalities in Scottish society. And you've talked about Black Lives Matter and I've heard you talk very clearly and eloquently before about gender and class. I'm just wondering what the pandemic has kind of exposed for you and for National Theatre Scotland around some of those continuing inequalities in British society, in Scottish society. Jackie WylieYou know, our Scenes for Survival programme that we've done – to [give] kind of like concrete examples - have been really fascinating. The Scenes for Survival programme is like a series of digital works where National Theatre Scotland put together a writer, a director and a performer to tell like a short story online. And the pieces that have really, really resonated are the ones that uncover something about the inequalities, the structural, systemic inequalities, in a way.Like some of them exist just to be joyous, kind of comforting moments. But for example, Janey Godley’s Scene for Survival is about, it’s called Alone, and it’s like Janey Godley was completely hilarious. But it is - Janey Godley’s the comedian who does the voiceovers of the political leadership - but her piece is about her husband, at the beginning her husband dies of COVID although it’s not totally clear and actually what transpires is that she's been released out of this coercive controlling relationship. And actually she's like, we did a follow up with Jack Lowden and it's about her like discovering the fact that her son is actually a gay man living in Soho in London and she's like she wasn't allowed to explore because of her controlling husband. And there's just something so amazing about we've tried to make a show about the pandemic, but actually it was about coercive control and about how you, like women in Scotland, have a particular relationship to masculinity and traditionalism and all of that.And then another piece that we did - the piece that has like the second highest views - it's about the key workers and about this woman who ends up in hospital not because of COVID, but because of a suicide attempt. And she's comforted – it’s called The Domestic because it's about the domestic staff that work in the hospital that do the cleaning and the kind of maintenance - and she's comforted by this domestic. This amazing story of this keywork like before they were, we don't really think about this entire part of society who kept us all going. And they, they're like such a huge part of our lives and we can we have to somehow find a way of sustaining the discourse around the importance of those people. David MicklemI knew that Jenni Fagan's The Panopticon has been referred to as a bit like the kind of Trainspotting for this generation and a new voice, a new, fresh female voice for Scottish theatre, a sense that there a roaring generation of women who've got something powerful to say. I just wondered if you could tell us a bit about where that came from and how that kind of sets National Theatre’s stall for the future. Jackie WylieThe Panopticon is Jenni Fagan's debut novel and Jenni Fagan herself was a young woman who, she is an artist first and foremost, but she is also a human that is care-experienced. And she, her novel tells the story of this woman, Anais, who has fallen through the cracks of society and goes through the care system in the way that Jenni did as a young person. And it uses the Scottish storytelling device of magic realism with Jenni's character imagines herself leaving the Panopticon. The Panopticon is a building that has, wherever you are inside the building, you can be seen. You know, you can't even when you're in your own bedroom cell, you can still be seen by the institution. So Jenny imagines escaping from the Panopticon by going on these like flights of fantasy. But also there's this intercut with this reality where she is terribly, terribly exploited by the men in her life. And, you know, she is about her kind of struggle to survive and ultimately she escapes. But the thing that is extraordinary is that it’s told in Jenni's voice and Anais the character, like we actually just did an extract of it in the Ghost Like film that we did and the ferocious anger and hurt that is embodied within that character and the swearing, we had a big conversation about swearing being a mode of Scots expression and that's like, that's a reality. But when we did that piece, it was directed by Debbie Hannan, who's a fantastic Scottish director, it just, for me, felt like it was in this trajectory of Scottish literature but taking it on to another level because it was a female, you know, working class voice, but a voice that is a, you know, a completely different experience to so many of us in society. And it was amazing to be able to sort of uncover that story actually and tell that story that would otherwise be unheard. And there is something particular to the rule of the National Theatre Scotland, which is about actively seeking out stories that wouldn't otherwise be told or been otherwise have a platform. David MicklemLet's talk a bit more about that, the responsibility, I guess, of being a national theatre and the kind of the broad range of voices and practises that you feel a responsibility to represent on stages around the country. Tell me a bit about how that sits for you. Jackie WylieThere's a lot in that question, but, so there's something about form which we can come back to. But like in terms of, you know, the responsibility of a national theatre, one of the things I've been reflecting on during the pandemic whereby the Scenes for Survival shorts have been seen by over 13 million people, which is like this extraordinary, it’s an extraordinary number. And the thing that we talk about at NTS and we've talked about for a long, long time, which has now kind of entered the mainstream lexicon of how we talk about our mission as institutions. But National Theatre Scotland was like the first organisation that said, ‘We're theatre for everyone,’ and that is, like, tied into the without walls ethos, which is about if you don’t have a building, you go out to meet the people and that's you know, the theatre for everyone ethos is about reaching the widest possible audience. And Scenes for Survival has been extraordinary in kind of an extraordinary example of how we achieved that. Not by accident, but like it wasn't our intention, we weren't you know, we wanted to stay connected to our audiences, but we also there was a lot of other reasons for doing that and the number of people that we've connected with has been, it's been an incredible sort of by-product of all of that.But for us, there's an interesting sort of dialogue between the fact that we exist to tell untold stories. So I think about something like Adam. Adam was the story of this Egyptian trans man who finds himself in Scotland. He transitions to the man who was like inside his soul when he was born into the body of a woman. And he finds his space within Scotland and is able to do that because he finds his identity here. And that is like an amazing Scottish story, an amazing celebration of Scottish culture. And that is one important function that we have. But we also there's other function, which in many ways actually if I'm being really honest, is like the more challenging function, which is like to tell really big, popular stories to those audiences that exist, you know, that maybe you only go to the panto at the Kings Theatre in Glasgow and they are just as important to us as any other audience. So it's finding, it's not very sexy or cool way to say it, what it's like finding the balance between all of those different kind of positions.So next year we're doing a version of a Peter Mullen film called Orphans. We're making that show as like an overtly popular, big scale Scottish musical because there's a lot of, in the Scottish theatre, there's like a lot of mythology about Scotland, its relationship to a music theatre. And because we have this kind of ceilidh tradition, but we also deep inside us we also want to kind of make that kind of popular mark because we don't have a West End or a Broadway. So it's like this intense dialogue about what success and scale looks like when we don't have the same kind of, we've got a different set of national kind of specificity when it comes to that model. So we're doing this version of Orphans to tour around the big venues.And we're also doing this piece that’s going to happen on the decks of the ferries. And for me, there's like something about that wonderful duality where it’s completely valid to have a show that happens on the ferries for the people that are travelling to Mull and like happen upon a beautiful piece of kind of storytelling in the bar, in that strange, liminal space, in the bar of a ferry, and also like a big rollicking good night out.And then, you know, next year we're also doing Michael Boyce directing a Liz Lochhead classic and that is equally exciting and thrilling. So the thing about National Theatre Scotland is that there's not any set rhythm. We don't have like, you know, we don’t have a subscriber's season of set moments where we do this in the spring season and then we function in this we during the summer and then you do a Christmas show, there's no pattern, there’s just the hunger to get to as many people as we possibly can …David Micklem… in whatever way feels most appropriate.One of the repeated themes that's come up on this Culture Reset programme, which Postcards to the Future is a part of, is around the fact there's a perceived battle between the sort of the top down, kind of the well, my traditional panto-style play or a well-made play that goes on in the theatre and then the power of the grassroots and how in too many theatres, certainly around the UK, those grassroots voices have been ignored or marginalised. I'm interested in how you kinda square that circle; how you make sense of the two ends of that spectrum, the kind of, you know, the well-made piece of work by a professional who's been doing this for sort of 30 or 40 years verses a creative soul who might live and work in Cumbernauld but doesn't think of themselves as being a theatre practitioner. How does that come across in National Theatre Scotland?Jackie WylieWell, there's like three things there, isn't there? Because there's like the role of co-created, participatory work. And then there's like the independent sector. And then there's the kind of role to provide opportunities for, you know, the most established theatre artists because we are the National Theatre Scotland. And, you know, the thing about NTS is that we are so fortunate to be able to do all of those things. Like, well, like in way we are unapologetic about the fact that the National Theatre of Scotland has to be a space where our most established artists can sustain their careers, because National Theatre Scotland has the resource to give them the biggest opportunity for their ambition. And that's completely fine. But it's also incredibly important that we nurture the independent sector who, let's face it, are the ones that often positively influence and shape and innovate what then becomes the mainstream. So it's not as simple as like one or the other. It’s like a constant kind of, it’s a cycle isn't it, where one is influencing the other.And then the co-created work, you know, the people who might not think of themselves as artists but actually we believe that, you know, everybody has a right to self-expression. The interesting thing is that NTS has an ability to mainstream whatever, and it's unfortunate terminology, but at NTS, we don't differentiate between the importance of work that is made with communities in a co-created, participatory way and work that happens in the Lyceum or the Citizens or, you know, Eden Court, it’s all equally valid forms of theatre that are open to interpretation.It’s interesting when we think about scale and ambition. One of the biggest projects that NTS has done in the last few years was our Futureproof festival, which was actually … I just a physical, a physical reaction to remembering it, because it was a so like, it pushed us all to the very limits of our … it actually makes lockdown look like a walk in the park [DM: a summer holiday, yeah] [both laugh], because we co-created, we brought together 10 companies and many of them were international. So we brought like Rimini Protokoll Back to Back Theatre, Mammalian Diving Reflex, and they co-created the works in 10 different locations all across Scotland. We brought Akhe over from Russia. And they were alongside amazing Scottish participatory makers like Greg Sinclair and Lucy Gaizely. And actually the scale of that, because we are the National Theatre, you know it was in 10 locations and that meant that we could actually do that. We had a responsibility to have a nationwide conversation about what it meant to be a young person. But again, I think that's just as valid an event as something that might be perceived as more prestigious in a different way. David MicklemI'm getting a sense from you, Jackie, that kind of the notion of creative engagement isn't something that sits in one part National Theatre Scotland, it’s not a department of National Theatre Scotland. That actually it's a kind of, it's a verb. It's a thing that happens right across all of your practise, all of the company’s output. Jackie WylieYeah. I mean, in all honesty, I think we all say that, but I think that's an aspiration. And I think to say that, you know, that's a constantly evolving aspiration as opposed to like a fixed goal that you reach. It’s not like, oh, I've managed to embed creative engagement across my entire organization [laughs]. You have to be self reflective about what that is all the time. And again, it's about what you know, what your organisational values are.And at NTS, collaboration is built into everything that we do because we can’t actually make anything without other people, because we don’t have a building and we don’t have an ensemble and we don't like … It’s really funny we like talk about like we try and fall back on this value of generosity whenever we've tried to make a decision about what we're doing, as though, you know, which tends to sort of position NTS in the centre and, you know. Are we behaving in a generous way towards the rest of the sector, to the arts? But actually the reality is, we wouldn’t help the rest of the sector if we didn't have a good relationship with the independent artists and we wouldn't be able to do anything [laughs]. I think maybe saying that in this podcast, I’ve burst the bubble now. [laughs]David MicklemIt’s like the Wizard of Oz [both laugh]Jackie WylieIt’s reciprocity. That’s what I meant. David MicklemI want to talk about Edinburgh. Normally, probably this time of year, you and I would be nursing a hangover somewhere in Edinburgh, having seen a whole bunch of stuff and perhaps come into contact with some incredible new international artists. And I wanted to really ask two questions in relation to that. One is sort of how has that impacted on your networks and thinking in relationship to artists? But also what does that mean for kind of internationalism and National Theatre Scotland's relationship with the rest of the world going forward? Jackie WylieI think that's a really, really big question that we haven't, like, we're only just getting our shoulders back and getting a chance to think about. We do, National Theatre Scotland does this weekly Zoom with the other national performing companies like Scottish Ballet, Scottish Opera, the orchestras, and recently we've started to talk to Fergus Linehan from EIF [Edinburgh International Festival] about what it means to be these kind of fundamentally international organisations who have this function, which is like to present Scotland on a world stage and also to look outwards. And what does it mean when that those influences aren't coming into Scotland and we can't get ourselves out at the moment and what that means for that element of our work. There is something about renewed collaboration like the, those weekly meetings that we'd now do like the chief execs like the national performing companies, we used to meet once, like, once every three months in a really sort of formal way, round a big boardroom table and now we all basically, I swear there's like more than one of us in our pyjamas, at like the weekly Zoom, usually like that is literally like the suits and ties meeting that we all do. I mean, like what the female equivalent is of that. And we've just begun to unpack, like how we might collaborate to rethink what the international is and what our rules might be.I think the programme of work that happened during EIF this year is a really, really good example of how Scotland can still be present on a world stage whilst not able to reach domestic audiences in real time. Yeah, it’s a tricky one.The thing about Scotland is that we're really proud of looking outwards, you know, and you can't sort of ignore that we had a different outcome with the Brexit vote. You know, we voted to stay in the EU and there is a desire for us to stay connected globally in a particular way. So we're like we are wondering how we do that and how do I as a human keep up those influences to push me forward as a as a sort of leader and a thinker when I don’t have those moments. As you said earlier, mostly nursing a hangover [laughs], but actually, you know, every time you have those meetings, there's like at least a dozen things that you take away that influence your thinking. And how do we, you know, how do we carry on having those connections when that's not physically possible? David MicklemAnd I don't want to push you too much around nationalism, but, you know, in a world which is becoming increasingly nationalist, where borders are going up and there's a rise of nationalism. And obviously Scottish nationalism is a big part of the kind of cultural debate, ongoing part of the cultural debate. I guess, what stops Scotland becoming more insular? Against that background, from a cultural perspective? Jackie WylieWell, that's a very interesting question to be asked from someone from London, isn't it? [both laugh] I said that in my best, Miss Jean Brodie voice [mimics], ‘Well that’s a very interesting post-colonial question.’ [laughs]. Because you asked that question, I'm just going I'll give you the answer I always give to that question, which is like, like National Theatre Scotland's rule is like to be part of like nationwide debate around the future of the nation. Like, we will never take a position on anything because we have to maintain … Like, in Scotland, there is a huge there is a huge range of political opinions as it is within any nation. And actually, you know, to go back to the idea of theatre for everyone, if we are truly a theatre for everyone, the company will never take a political position on anything. And that goes from like nationalism, Brexit, our place in the UK and in the world, we will never will never take a position. But we will invite artists to have something to say on those subjects on behalf of the nation and to ignite debate and most exciting and sort of lively moments are when those artists offer divergent opinions. Like when we did our Dear Europe project, where we brought a series of different artists to offer their own personal reflections on our relationship to Europe. And there are so many incredible sort of ideas. But none of them were one stable reflection of the Scottish position. They were reflective of, of a range of opinions. So, yeah, I think, you know, the job of work, of making sure that we continue to look outwards is like is an aspirational thing that we're always seeking to achieve and isn't like a sort of goal, again, like, not a goal that you reach, but something that you have to have, like threaded through. David MicklemIt's an ongoing process. It's not a position you arrive at. Jackie WylieAnd so is the idea of being national. Like, you don't get to be national because you've got National in your job title or you've got National in your institutional brand. It's like being national is a process that you have to work really hard at to earn. You know, you earn being national by being as reflective as you can of the whole of the nation, but also being in dialogue with the rest of the world. Because it's a two way thing, isn't it? David MicklemBrilliant, I love that. One of the repeated refrains that you would have heard, I've certainly heard a lot since the pandemic first struck, is that people have been saying whatever happens when this is over, we can't go back to how things were before. That, whether you were a freelancer or you're running a building or you're an artist or you're running a company. That things just aren't sustainable. You know, we've got caught up in this very kind of … I mean, sustainable in terms of environmental, but also in terms of personal sustainability, financial sustainability, economic sustainability, and that despite all the great work of National Theatre Scotland, Battersea Arts Centre and hundreds and dozens of other arts organisations, arts and culture still isn't sufficiently relevant for huge swathes of the population. We know that, statistically.I'm asking, what would you say to that? To people who say that, you know, we haven't been out on the streets every Thursday clapping for arts and culture in the way in which we were back in April or May for key workers or for the NHS. What would you say to that? Jackie WylieI think it's a huge, huge question. And I think there is something else going on which I'm only just beginning to process. And I don't have the answers for this. But the other thing that is happening, which is the non-subsidised work, which was often the work which most people did engage with, has suddenly collapsed. I say this as a kind of like, I know what I'm saying when I say that. And the sort of level of complexity. But like, you know, the Barrowlands in Glasgow isn't currently sustainable and that is a commercial popular form of self-expression for a lot of people. So what does it mean when everything has gone and shifted? If you see what I mean. Like the musicals at the Playhouse in Edinburgh are not able to sustain themselves at the moment economically. So we have to ask, you know … there's so many questions.The thing for me is the kind of life-changing … I've never in my like, more felt in my bones, in my soul, the value of what NTS does, you know, through this period and not that's not just about Scenes for Survival or the Ghost Like film, it's about like, our Coming Back Out Ball, which was like a social dance club that we moved online, you know, the work that we've been doing with, for families through the interactive work that we've been doing. So there is a fundamental challenge where we all have turned to culture. And this is like, now, this is not a new thing to say, we’re all saying this now. But like the sort of inherent challenge, which is we've all turned to culture for comfort, you know, I've never in my life, really described what I do as being comfort, and suddenly I feel like this, you know, people watching Elaine C Smith as a DJ, talking about the death of her father, suddenly I'm like, oh, the job of National Theatre Scotland is about comfort, you know. Or like Brian Cox, as Rebus was actually like, really genuinely trying to talk about what the purpose of that as art was. I was like it’s to comfort people who are like in their homes alone, scared, just like suddenly art is a true comfort.But at the same time, the whole kind of systemic exploitation inherent with the institutional models which create that culture have been exposed. So, like the ability for culture to exist is built on this freelance workforce who are underpaid, which is that like the cork has come off that conversation hasn't it? And it's never going back in the bottle.So there is something about everything changing at the same time, us understanding what we do in this really, really acute way, but also understanding that the models by which it’s created are inherent. Like, they replicate the injustices that exist within the societies in which we're making the work. And that's not just about the freelancers, it's about Black Lives Matter. It's about the exploitation of the planet, all of that. I don't have the answers. You know, all the questions are coming up at the same time. And I think as institutions, our job is to live within those provocations and not ignore them. And that seems like there's no easy answer, but we have to sort of, not ignore it. David MicklemThat's brilliant. And we've been talking about the many challenges of 2020 and the tragedies and Black Lives Matter and the challenges you've been having domestically, personally, just trying to juggle work and family life. I wanted to finish up by just asking kind of what's giving you hope, Jackie? What hope do you have for the future? For National Theatre Scotland and personally. What are you looking to for kind of comfort, for inspiration? Where next? Jackie WylieWe're desperate to get back in the theatres. And there's something about, like, a renewed sense of what the value is to sit beside other human beings in one space and watch art together. I've never before … I've talked in the abstract about the value of theatre and suddenly, I'm like, I would, I would give anything to sit in a beautiful theatre and like, watch an extraordinary play. And I know that's going to happen. And there's something about like having a fresh purpose.But I'm also like simultaneous to that beginning to feel this amazing challenge and the fact that, like, the things that we've said in the abstract about National Theatre Scotland defining theatre in any way that we want is suddenly so true because we were anxious at the beginning about Scenes for Survival: is that theatre or is it something else? And I was like, ‘It is made by theatre artists and it’s reached 13 million people and employed 300 people,’ and I no longer feel a need to have that sort of justification of like the anxiety around like what is theatre, because being able to connect and communicate and comfort is all that we want to do. And if that, you know, and there's so many ways that we can do that going forward. David MicklemFantastic. I'm filled with hope. Jackie, you've been a fantastic guest. It's really lovely to speak to you. Thank you so much. Jackie WylieThanks for having me, David. Thanks for listening to Postcards to the Future. If you subscribe to the series then the next episode will seamlessly drop into your podcast platform. Postcards to the Future is a People Make It Work project, devised and produced by Claire Doherty and David Micklem for the Culture Reset programme, which is funded by the ever brilliant Gulbenkian Foundation. ................
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