That Witch Life



Episode 68: SecondAnniversary With Najah Lightfoot, David Shi, and Annwyn AvalonTue, 1/12 5:43PM ? 2:49:40SUMMARY KEYWORDSpractice, magic, water, day, magical, started, witch, dreams, feel, witchcraft, spirits, people, good, blue jay, animal, find, thought, year, great, bookSPEAKERSKanani, Annwyn Avalon, Intro music, Courtney , Hilary, Najah, All Three, Courtney and Hilary, David ShiIntro music 00:2920 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world following Magick and Spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast. Your home for living as a Witch in today's world.Courtney 00:47Hey, everybody, welcome back to That Witch Life Podcast. I am Courtney. I am hosting today's show. I am here with Hilary. Hilary 00:56Hello. Courtney 00:58And Kanani,Kanani 00:59Hello!Courtney 01:00And it is our Two Year Anniversary Special! Hilary 01:04Fuck Yes!Kanani 01:05So crazyCourtney 01:05Oh, my God! so we have Kanani 01:10it's so weird.Hilary 01:11People have been listening to us for two years.Courtney 01:14And they're stillHilary 01:15They're still listening... I'm stoked. Courtney 01:17And they're not in Arkham or anything like that. Hilary 01:19I know, Courtney 01:20Harley Quinn hasn't had to bust them out at all. It's like….Hilary 01:22I knowCourtney 01:23it'd be great. And so we actually have three people coming on today that we each interviewed separately. We've had...it's been such a phenomenal journey just in the last two years that has impacted my magical journey in big ways and we've all agreed that that's one of the many gifts of this podcast, in addition to meeting all these awesome people and having a lot of fun, is what it has done for us magically. And I mean, I can say personally, that every single person we've spoken to, has shaped my path in some way.Hilary 02:01Same!Courtney 02:02Yeah, but Kanani 02:03I definitely think that's fair to say.Courtney 02:05Yeah and but so we were trying to figure out what would be the thing. And we thought it would be interesting if we each did a short interview with the people that have of that, that have who have been on our show that have specifically impacted our magical journeys and Hilary has interviewed Najah Lightfoot, I interviewed David Shi, and Kanani interviewed Annwyn Avalon. So, those interviews are coming up; before we get started, let's I have a major rant. I'm going to go down the hole and have a big rantHilary 02:45 Oh man. Courtney 02:45Yall, it's coming. This is a good one.Hilary 02:47I'm ready. You're right.Courtney 02:49But before I do that, how are you? How are you ladies doing in this mess of a world which by the way, I realized this morning, we record our episodes on Mondays. And so the episode that was released the day we're recording this Monday, January 11, was recorded on January 4, before our country went to fucking hell. So I was like, Did you think we didn't say anything? Cuz we just didn't. We didn't because it hadn't happened yet. So yeah. Anyway, how are you guys doing in this? Whatever the fuck is going on right now.Hilary 03:20I mean, it's it's chaos. I mean, like, you know, the thing is, is like, I think that it's everything is overwhelming, especially energetically right now. I just find like, I find that like, everything feels really tense. I mean, even though again, like, you know, I don't I'm, you know, in my house, which I never leave in southeast Portland, Oregon. I none of this is like on my doorstep. And yet, like it's so palpable.Kanani 03:51Here's the thing that's interesting to me though. Okay, unlike 2020, to me, 2020 was just day after day of What the actual fuck? What the actual fuck is happening right now? This, we saw this shit coming. So to me, ironically, this is not nearly as jarring as most of the rest of 2020 because most of the shit that was coming at us was like, stuff we've never even experienced in our lifetimes things that no one could imagine happening ever ever ever. We all knew this would happen. We all knew that he wouldn't accept an election loss we all knew that it was going to be you know, for all my fellow mamas out there like dragging a screaming toddler out of Target!! Hook 'em on to your shoulder, walk on out, they're screaming their head off and you were just trying to make it to the door. It's all you're trying to do. That's what this is. I mean, it's you're dealing with an infant. And I apologize to all infants it's not your fault you behave this way. This is this is a grown ass man supposed to know better...But, so for me as upsetting it is, it's not as jarring because for me, it's not at all shocking. Like, I, if there was no other way it was going to go down. It wasn't ever going to be okay. It wasn't ever going to be calm or peaceful or whatever. So, although I'm, I'm extremely upset by it, and it's like making me anxious and upset, it's, it's different because I expected it to come. And I know that it will be over soon. So, you know, for me, I don't know, I think I have kind of a different vibe from it just because to me, it's just kind of like, yep, here it is.Hilary 05:45I mean, I think that it's not shocking that there was violence by these nightmares of human beings. But I think that what happened? Like it's like, it's, it's unreal. You know what I mean? I think that in the fact that it, I think it's a statement to where we are right now that we've gone through everything we've gone through at such a level that this isn't shockingly horrifying to us, right? Like, that's actually what I find to be so like, the most horrifying part is, none of us are like, "WHAT"?!? you know, it's like, well, yeah, Trump supporters, they're crazy and violent and a problem, you know, and so, I think that that part of it is reallyKanani 06:39well, and I would go, I would go further. I would say that, to me, part of it is it's not I don't want to say Trump supporters, because there are Trump supporters that are not stupid enough to do what just happened. Right. Right. You know, it at the Capitol Building. But these this is proof that the GOP has embraced, allowed and accepted. white supremacists, racists, bigots, and crazy conspiracy theorists to be welcomed into their party.Courtney 07:12So I would not. I would I would be cautious about you accepting too much of the buffoonery that media has been putting up there because a lot of these folks were very well organized, very planned. Kanani 07:26That's what I'm saying these were militant, white supremacists,Courtney 07:29but when you were saying that there's people would be doing something that's stupid, they weren't stupid. They had a plan.Hilary 07:34I mean, and while I agree that not every Trump supporter would go and storm the Capitol Building, I think that that Trump supporters support a culture that makes that okayKanani 07:46oh, yeah. Exactly.Hilary 07:49And and, and so whether or not so whether or not you were one of the idiots in there, I mean, they're not idiots. Obviously, this was seriously calculated, but one of these assholes that was there or not, you are an equal part of that problem, you know, because you might not have been the one that showed up with guns at the Capitol Building, but you completely supported a candidate and a culture and a community of folks that believed that bigotry, racism, xenophobia, misogyny, ableism, was acceptable, that that you felt emboldened and you can that you continue to embolden people to a tipping points and here we are!Courtney 08:33and then the spread of the misinformation and not and also the inaction on the part of many people to not call this stuff out. It's just it's, it's,Hilary 08:41it allowed, it allowed violence to exist at this level. It allowed it to exist.Courtney 08:48And it's, you know, it's so funny, because I was listening to the episode that came out, you know, today, the 11th in our conversation with Phoenix Coffin-Williams and remember how, at the beginning, I was saying, well, this last dream I had, I know it was a dream. It wasn't a premonition, and it was a dream of rats infesting The Enchanted Forest and you guys were like, Oh, my God, you're you're just a fucking weirdo. I'm like, yeah, yeah. and I don't know what I don't know what that's about... today, when I listened to that. No, that that was a kind of premonition, because the Enchanted Forest is a sacred institution. And as is the Capitol building, and also the Enchanted Forest is in the capital of Oregon in Salem, and it was infested with rats, there was an infestation of something horrible. So yeah, that was my dream and I love how in my psyche, or my psychic visions replaced the United States government building with the Enchanted Forest, but there is a castle at the Enchanted Forest. So you know, you know, leadership, whatever.Hilary 09:48Oh, my God. You're like, there's so many similarities.Courtney 09:52Am I stretching? Am I reaching here? I don't know it kind of felt real to meHilary 09:57I don't know. I don't feel like that's a stretch.Courtney 10:03Oh my god. Well, I had to have a rant. It is not on the same topic of what has happened recently and I think that's one of the reasons I'm ranting. And this was a one star review on my Morrigan book on Goodreads today. This was the first Hilary 10:19Ohhhh haters.Courtney 10:21Oh, it's so good. Are you ready?Hilary 10:23I'm so ready.Courtney 10:24Okay, okay. Ahem! 'Came for the information, the myths, legend and the Goddess, left one star for the "Find and Replace" contrived wokeness that replaced women with gender identity. The women in the stories weren't ridiculed, targeted, maligned and ignored because of their gender identity, it was because they were female. The males in the stories kept getting to be men, replacing women attempting is attempting to rewrite history is insulting to the very idea in the mythology of the book' So, I got a one star review, because I said, Let's consider this, the Morrigan being maligned for her gender identity, instead of saying, because she's a woman.Hilary 11:14I mean, what the fuck?!Courtney 11:17I just want to say to this reviewer, if you're listening to this, first of all, thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to read this book. Second of all, thank you, this is the best one star review I have ever had, I want to fucking frame it. Because if I am getting shitty ass reviews for being too inclusive of gender identity, then fucking give me a one star review on everything I ever fucking do between here and the end of time. There's a we can really unpack but listen, let us not make the assumption that people to people several 1000 years ago, had the same view of gender that we do now. Because we don't know that lots of the Celts, contemporaries, like the Greeks and the Romans, they didn't have binary gender, and there was a lot of reflections of the gender spectrum that we don't even have now. Okay. And all over the world in a pre-Christian, pre-colonial era, you find history of many different gender expressions. So it is a mistake to assume that the Celts were the same way. And it is also a mistake to ever pick up any book that I write, and think I'm going to be writing just for cis-women because it won't happen. I'm saving some time in the future and never read anything I write again. But I also really encourage you to turn on your television and look at what's going on in the world. Because not only have we in the past year dealt with a pandemic, we have dealt with fascism, we nearly lost our democracy, I'm assuming this person's from the United States, we nearly lost our democracy just a few days ago. And we also seem to like have not been mentioning the fact that everywhere in the US experienced some kind of climate disaster at a serious level this past year. So I don't know why you would spend this time to give me a hard time for this, when there are so many incredibly serious things going on. But you can save yourself some time in the future and don't read anything I write anymore, because that's what you're going to continue to see. Yeah, and I wish you luck and I wish you healing and I wish that you would open your mind and I think that you would you'd find the world a better place for that. That's all I got to say best one star review I've ever had. And I hope that all my one star reviews are because of this going forward.Hilary 13:41I love it when you go on review rants. It's so so funny.Kanani 13:47You know when it comes to stuff like this, it's just kind of like one of those things where it's like if this is what you're gonna give me shit for then I will gladly take your shit.Courtney 13:55Oh, yeah,Hilary 13:56you're like then I guess I'm gonna take this shit.Courtney 13:59At least I didn't record it in helium voice which I thought about doingHilary 14:03Oh, man, you really fucked up. You really fucked it up now. I'm fucking pissed that we didn't get helium voice this time.Kanani 14:12Helium voice is so good.Hilary 14:13That's it. You can't be on the podcast anymore. You've really let us down.Courtney 14:18Well, that's what it was one of my favorite memories of the past two years is when we had somebody totally troll us on Twitter and try to call on like a Christian tirade to come after us. Hilary 14:27It was so good. Courtney 14:29And she was begging to be on the show. And I said,Courtney and Hilary 14:32Okay.Hilary 14:35I'm so sad that she didn't come on the show. Honestly. Courtney 14:37Oh No, she came on the show Kanani 14:39as the helium voice Hilary 14:39Well, as the helium voiceCourtney 14:41I read all of her tweets in the helium voice and played it on the showHilary 14:46Yeah, but I'm kind of sad that we didn't have her on the show.Courtney 14:49You know, I feel like that would be kind of punching down because Hilary 14:52Yeah, it's true. It's true. Courtney 14:54I'm like, No, you. You put those words out there. I just gave you one more platform. I just happened to do it in a helium voice, because I just wanted to elevate Hilary 15:02I really want to know if she heard that that would have been so fucking good. We should have tagged her in all of the posts.Courtney 15:10Yeah, that would have been good. So looking back, I just thought it might be actually kind of interesting to talk about how we got this started. And to be honest, I can't quite remember the moment when Kanani and I decided to do a podcast but in my memory, going back Kanani 15:27First you explained to me what a podcast was, Courtney 15:29I had to explain to you what a podcast was Kanani 15:31And I pretended to understand Hilary 15:32of course you did.Kanani 15:34And I mean that. And I mean that with all sincerity. I had no idea what a I had no idea what what a podcast was,Courtney 15:39you still don't!Kanani 15:40I heard I heard the word but I did not actually know what it was. Courtney 15:45Well, she knows what television shows are. And so for a long time, we said we need a television show because we used to meme each other three, four times a day. And people started friending us on Facebook, Kanani. Kanani knows, just to watch us meme each other. Kanani 16:03Oh, 100%Courtney 16:03because we would have whole conversations just in meme posts. And we're like, we're funny. We've been telling people this for years, and no one believes us. But apparently, if we like get out of the people who know us actually in person, people really like us. And letKanani 16:20Hold on. Let me clarify. It's not that people like us. It's that they laugh at us. Hilary 16:29Oh, my God, Kanani 16:29because we're insane. And we're fun to watch. Because our crazy is is you know, completely harmless.Courtney 16:39And also that that was about the time that Hillary moved back up here from California. And I met you at the Starbucks one day and said, you know, Kalani and I are starting a podcast. Do you want to do it? And I hadn't yet. Hilary 16:53I feel like we talked about that before when I was driving in the car. I feel like you. Yeah, I swear to God, you called me before then maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But I swear my memory says that I was driving in the car and you were like, Hey, you busy right now. And I was like, I'm driving in the car. You're like, Okay, cool. Do you want to do a podcast on witchcraft? And I was like, What? And you were like a podcast on witchcraft with Kanani and I and I was like, I mean, yes, obviously and then and then at Starbucks and talked it out. Like, you know, like, I'm pretty sure it was via maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but I swear it was via the car.Courtney 17:32Oh, maybe it was but it was like, I'll never forget what Kanani said what I'm like, Well, I said Hillary's in. And Kanani said, Okay, good. Because now people will take us seriously. When I wasHilary 17:44little did they know?Courtney 17:46I was also ike, what does that mean? Kanani's like, Well, you know, and I'm like, well, I've been speaking on witchcraft for 10 years, and you're like, Yeah, but Hillary is what's gonna make people take it seriously, but Okay, now. Okay.Kanani 18:02Well, you need someone who's gonna pull the car around every once in a while, and that's sure as shit isn't going to be Courtney or I, so it was like, Okay, oh, you have to have a appropriate driver behind the wheel now.Courtney 18:14Well, here's what we each actually take turns "driving". So when we're actually on the air, or recording, and we're just like riffing and stuff like that. Hillary is the one who pulls Kanani and I back now, if we're on the show, and something's going down behind the scenes and Hillary and I have secretly lost our shit. It's Kanani that pulls us back like the time Hillary Hilary 18:40Oh my God, Courtney 18:41You and I lost it. Now we were actually we had a very serious guest that day he was sharing some very serious stuff.Kanani 18:50I was gonna murder you both. I remember this now!Hilary 18:53It was so bad. It was so bad. SoKanani 18:57I was literally shooting the mom eye daggers like really?! like really right now?!Really? Hilary 19:01To to like, give a little perspective on what happened. So I have a habit of in group chats on Facebook. Like if someone spells something wrong or says something ridiculous or like, quotes something in a very funny context. I'll change their name to that. Like, I'll change their nickname so like, right now, Courtney's nickname in our chat is quincunx and and Kanani is the angry German I don't know if you guys see that when I see it. Oh,Courtney 19:33yeah. Okay, that we seeHilary 19:34so so I so anyway, I had like something about dicks or something.Courtney 19:39Clown Penis clown pee. Hilary 19:41No, no, no, no, it was ghost penis scratching. Because a friend of mine, like literally went into a house that they hadn't been at forever and there was like scratchings on the wall that looked like a penis, right? And so, so I changed her nickname to ghost penis scratchings. And so it's a message came through and my phone was sitting on the table. And Courtney just saw "message from ghost penis scratchings" pop up and, and like, pointed at it, and then looked at me and then lost her shit. And then of course now I'm like, Oh my fucking god and losing it. And so it's not one of these scenarios where it's like, you laugh, you snicker a little bit, it was like, I almost puked. I was laughing so hard. This is when we were in the same room together so...Courtney 20:31And we were, we were completely silent. We did not make a sound. And this is what was hard is that this, our, the person we were interviewing was sharing something very serious. And it wasn't the kind of situation where we could just like, we got to get our giggles out and come back to it.Hilary 20:46I'd be like, Oh, my God, I'm really sorry. Something funny happened.Courtney 20:49They were sharing from their soul. And we were like, and Kanani is looking at us like, what the fuck is wrong with you two???Hilary 20:53Kanani was soooo mad.Courtney 20:59And we're like, drooling and snotting and like trying to come backHilary 21:03I FELL out of my chair, like I was on the floor at one point.Courtney 21:08and we would like, we like take a breath, ask that ask the question of the person and then have to go back to silent laughing with a fist in our mouth. So that's when kanani is the driver. And I'm the driver when we're not on air. And we're like, Facebooking of like, Guys, we need you to get your run of show together. And you're like, look what I'm buying today that I saw that I saw on Wish, like, I'm like, Oh my God, we have to get ready for the show. And then Kanani's like, what are we doing tonight? And I'm like,Kanani 21:08It was so bad. exactly,Hilary 21:32yeah, we'll show up and Kanani's like, are we interviewing someone? And you're like, fucking Oh, my god,Courtney 21:36you're hosting? I am. What am I doing?Hilary 21:38What am I hosting?Courtney 21:39Did I write that book? You said you didHilary 21:41Are we doing? Yeah.Kanani 21:44These are all conversations that have happened by the way, I deny none of this. Courtney 21:49Oh, shit.Hilary 21:49So Oh, my God.Courtney 21:51One of the things that happened behind the scenes with our fucking insane podcast.Kanani 21:55I remember one of the meme stuff that kind of started all of this when people like saying that we just watched I just log into Facebook, just to see what you guys are saying to each other. One of them was when my daughter was born. It started when I was pregnant. When I was pregnant, we started talking about things like, you know, like, well, if she's unattractive, we would just like give her away at some donation site or something like that. And I would, you know, constantly say these things that we would make jokes about, you know, well, if she can't, you know, if she doesn't have nice hair, well, if she grows up, and she can't read or whatever, and people would private message Courtney and they would be like, you, you might need to talk to your friend because I'm not sure that she should really, you know, like have a child like she clearly did not want... and Courtney would just start, she would of course, she'd forward it to me cuz then we just start laughing hysterically and, and because that was one of the things that people were like, people, the people that got it thought it was hilarious. And then other people were like, hyper concerned. Like she's gonna give her child away if it's not attractive?! like, Oh, my God, this is awful! Courtney 23:05There's a lot of families that would want her don't just leave her at Goodwill. And guys, I guess she's fine when people need kids. So ya whatever Kanani 23:10they would find her, it's always busy. I mean,Courtney 23:13I posted on your page when you were going to go in for your to have your second to have your son. And I posted on your page and I said, Are you getting a C section today? Just because you're really sick of decaf? And you responded. Yep. And my sonKanani 23:28actually what I think I said was what I think I said was like I've ever actually drank drank decaf...Courtney 23:33or no, you said, you know, you said something to the effect of like, yes, this but basically you affirmed that yeah, I have decided to have a C section today because I really need some coffee. My sister texted me minutes later, and was like, you know, she can have up to 12 ounces a day and it's okay. I'm like, No, really, it's fine,Hilary 23:48you're like it's a joke!! Kanani 23:50she knows Yo, trust me, she's fully aware of how much caffeine she's supposed to have.Courtney 23:59So yeah, so it was those kind of conversations where like, maybe more people need to hear us andKanani 24:05be concerned by our behaviorCourtney 24:06be concerned by our behavior, Kanani, to this day still doesn't actually know what a podcast is because she's never actually listened to one except for the one with Sarah Marshall because she only because she was talking about Anna Nicole Smith! Kanani 24:17I love that podcast. I know. That's the only one I've listened to. And I think I've listened to it like three times. It's so good.Hilary 24:25Oh my god.Courtney 24:27So anyway, let's move to Hillary's interview with Najah. Hilary, you want to remind everybody who hasn't heard from Najah in awhile of who she is and what she's been up to?Hilary 24:38Okay, so first of all, Najah is a badass, so I'm just gonna start there. Najah Lightfoot is the multi award winning author of good Juju Mojo's rights and practices for the magical soul. She is a gold medal winner of the 2020 COVR awards in the category of Wicca, Witchcraft, and magic and a winner of the 2019 New York City Big Book Award. She is a fellow of the Sojourner Truth leadership circle sponsored by Auburn seminary. Najah practices magic, loves rituals, and writing about ways to help others develop powerful spiritual magical practices. Najah resides in Denver, Colorado, where the blue skies and the power of the Rocky Mountains uplift and fill her soul. She is also an initiated member of the New Orleans Voodoo society, and a regular contributing author to the Llewellyn Almanac series. Her articles regularly appear and Llewellyn's Magical Almanac, Witches' Companion, Witches' Datebook, and Spell-A-Day Series. Najah is a frequent guest on podcasts as well as in demand speaker for conferences, classes and event and her magical beloved staff is now on display at the Buckland Museum of Witchcraft located in Cleveland, Ohio. So Najah, I'm so excited for you to be back. How are you?Najah 25:52You know I'm doing okay, today I'm taking all this shit one day at a time.Hilary 25:56I mean... right?? Oh my god, it's so ridiculous.Najah 26:07Mmmhmm...yep yep yep it isHilary 26:10Ahhh geeze. Well, yeah, it's so nice to have you back on. Of course, I when we when we started this, we came up with the idea of our anniversary episode. And we started going okay, well, maybe each of us will reach out to one of the people we connected with the most. And for me, that was you. And I and I remember the first time you came on the show some of the things that you had to say around, you know, your practice and your regular practice and how important that is to magic really impacted me so much. So I'm just so thrilled to have you back on. I always enjoy hanging out with you. And so yeah, welcome, welcome, welcome.Najah 26:52Well, thank you for having me back. And for all those wonderful, nice things you've said. I mean, you know, you guys were one of the first people to reach out to me as a newly published author, and I still remember the day, you know, we had our, our podcast and our recording, and it was instrumental in my life too. And so, you know, right back atcha I mean, what you guys have done and all the people you've had on and what you continue to do, you know, with your podcast is really great and absolutely necessary in the world. So, yeah, it's definitely a heart. heartfelt hug back to you too.Hilary 27:36Thank you so much for saying that. We feel so lucky to have this podcast going and that we've had all these amazing Practitioners come on and talk to us, I think that, you know, outside of it being a journey in which, you know, we were able to provide others with resources, it also really taught us a lot about our own practices. You know, I think that, you know, I've learned things through this process that I barely knew anything about or didn't know about at all. And so it's, it's pretty amazing to, to have the opportunity to speak with so many people about so many different topics and so we feel pretty lucky to be in the position that we're in. So I wanted to ask you, because, you know, we're like coming out of just a chaotic year. And I, you know, I wanted to know, with your magic, how did your magic most impact you in 2020?Najah 28:31Well, I will, you know, tell you, quite honestly, that, you know, I would not be in the place that I am, or made it through the really hard days, if I didn't have a daily spiritual practice. I mean, I just really tried to impress that upon people, and it saved me. You know, that, that every day, I felt like, Oh, yeah, I'm going to get out there, and I'm going to do all this stuff. And, and even in the days when I couldn't, even when the days were all I could do is just go outside, you know, even if going outside didn't happen at six o'clock in the morning, or if it was nine or 10. I mean, sooner or later I would get my ass out there and go outside and look at the sky and, and do my morning ritual. And that really, that really, really helped me. If I didn't have that. I don't know where I would be. You know, I've come to realize that I'm a simple witch, you know, I don't want to say that I'm simple minded, but I am simple. And I think that there's so much power to be gained from having a routine, something that just you feel so comfortable in that you can just do wherever you are and during the past year, you know, I was also writing so it was super hard, and I grieved a lot, because I'm a very social person. And along with everybody else, my my calendar just went out the window. So I've been really isolated and really missing people and hugging people and, and just being around people. So that was tough. But, you know, at the same time, those daily things that I've just done for years and years and years, really stood out for me and said, Okay, this is this is what we're going to hold on to. And, and that's what I did.Hilary 30:36Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. Because I think that, you know, especially when you're in a year where just everything is turned on its head, you know, it's just like it nothing, there's no sense of regularity. I think those things that keep us, like, keep us on a regular schedule, something that we can sync to and that we can grasp onto that feels steady is so helpful. Because I know for me, same thing, it was like, going into 2020, like, so exciting. There's gonna be so many cool things this year, like I have all these shows, and I'm gonna do all these things that it was like, uhh.. nope, there's gonna be zero. And I'm also a very social person. And also, you know what I mean? Like I, all year I usually travel to perform to, you know, to collaborate with artists, and, and so to have that just suddenly taken away, it's just like, Oh, my God, it's the it's the long..I said to someone the other day, it's the longest I have ever since I was a child, gone without performing ever. Yeah, you know?Najah 31:45Yeah, I can imagine that for you. Yeah.Hilary 31:48You know, what I saw myself doing was really leaning into my practice, because it was like the one thing that that one consistency that I could rely on, that I had control over the interaction, I you know what I mean, it wasn't like, no one could take that away from me,Najah 32:05right?Hilary 32:06And I think that that really, similarly, was super powerful. And that's even I mean, like, don't get me wrong. There were times where I was like, Fuck this. I'm not getting out of bed, you know? Yeah. And like, you know what? That is the other thing that I think this year with my practice taught me is that I'm someone that likes to be really elaborate. I think I told you this before. Like, I like to be suit. I mean, like, I like to be I mean, you know, Okay, first of all, I'm a performance artist. I'm an opera singer. I'm a Taurus. Right. So like, I like very elaborate, like, aesthetically, pretty things. And, you know, I really think I learned this year that like, well, I love that. And that's, that's great. And sometimes that's a really nice thing to do, or a really powerful thing to do. You know, it's that that simplicity and that even small things are powerful. And I think that that's what I learned, you know, like, cuz nobody had time this year to like, do anything Like, you know, there was none.Najah 33:04Yeah, I mean, they still, you know, it's still, you know, put something on me like, I'm, like I learned, you know, I so missed the experience of like, going to metaphysical stores and spending hours in them and picking up incense and shopping. And so I was reduced to buying incense online, and having it delivered, which I didn't know I could do, I didn't know I could get incense on online, it would be delivered to me. And then I kind of like started like, Oh, I have to like, you know, be sparing with my incense now. Even still, even just the other day, I'm like, because I don't really know what's going on. And I gotta, you know, I got it not be so you know, lackadaisical with Oh, I've got you know, just sticks and cones around at my leisure, and I can just burn 'em whenever I want. Yeah.Hilary 34:02I know. I agree. Because no, like, it is a maintenance, we are very lucky that we have the ability to order these things online, and they can have do our door especially during the pandemic, but I really miss like going into shops and just being there. Because I think that's how I end up with a lot of the things that are the most meaningful to me and in my practice is not like it's me standing in a store going. I don't know. And then just letting my like, whatever guide me to whatever I need. And I with incense, it's like, again, I like I I also just like that ritual of picking it out and smelling it, touching it and like experiencing that whole thing. Yeah, I mean, I feel like me too. I was like I have I'm running out of an incense blend that I have and I'm like, oh God, like what is gonnaNajah 34:56What am I gonna do?? Hilary 35:00I know,Najah 35:01I know, I know.Hilary 35:02Well, and it's like, I think this year, it's really funny, because this year, as part of our spell kits that we've, that we've been doing, I like have made incense blends. And I, you know, I had done incense blends before for myself, like loose incense to put on charcoal before and I've gotten to get really creative because again, you know, it's like, it's, you know, we're limited to, you know, like what we can access, like, it's me like going doing like curbside pickup in an herb shop, right? Like, it's not like I can go in and be like, let me sence the energy of all these things and decide what I want is like, right,Najah 35:39Right? I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah,Hilary 35:43Exactly. Well, you know, I think, you know, we've talked so much about, you know, the consistency of practice. And obviously, again, today, with with for some of our newer witches or people who are establishing practice, can you just tell us a little bit about what having that consistent practice does to your magic in general? Najah 36:05Yeah, well, you know, the first thing it does, I mean, especially when you're new, you're just so nervous about everything. And even even as a seasoned practitioner, myself, you know, I still look for opportunities to learn and grow, and I can't believe how nervous I get about doing something new andHilary 36:29Same, same. Najah 36:31And you know, what, you know, case in point, I just put up a YouTube video the other day, and I decided that this year, I was going to, you know, invest in a vlogging kit as my son has educated me on the right terms, and so I invested in, you know, the light ring and all that stuff and I was just so nervous about it. But finally, when I got into it, and I got it done, I was like, Yay, I did it. And, you know, that's the thing, like when you're new with a craft, I mean, you're so overwhelmed. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? I don't know, you know, where do I go? How do I do it. And so I like to encourage people to start small, and to really take their time, there's just, I mean, when you're new, you're very excited in sometimes in that newness, you forget that a lot of things that we do, as part of our ritual and daily practice have been around for thousands of years, in one form or another. It may not have always been called witchcraft or whatever, but the rituals that people have done, you know, as a society, as spiritual people, magical people, they're there, they've been in existence for a long time. So you can take your time, and, you know, it's good to build, build confidence with what you're doing, and that's what doing something daily, having a practice will do for you. Like, you know, just as simple like, okay, when you go out to do something, how many times have you forgotten shit, I didn't get the lighter, or I need this lighter, or I need a mat or dammit, I know I did this the other day, I was trying to light something. And I held the lighter and it burned my fucking dumb and I was like, damn it. That's right. Oh, that's right, when I'm not supposed to light it on this way because it burns my fuckin thumb! I was so mad!Hilary 38:32Oh my god, I do this all the time.Najah 38:35All the time, right? But, like, if you don't do that, like, if you don't, if you're not out there trying to light you know, something, or, or, you know, get your little altar set up just right. If it's not something that you keep working on, you don't have those stumbles. You know, I don't want to call them obstacles. They're just stumbles and then you like, then you find out like something so simple, like, Oh, I light this lighter when I light this incense and then you HOO! you get past that point and so now you've like, Okay, I've got this little magical power here that you know that this lighter in this incense, or this match in this incense, or this herb and this pedestal or when I grind this up this I like it this way, because you've done it.Hilary 39:24Because you've done it. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I like I mean, that's a lesson I feel like when I started getting into using herbs and plants more, you learn really quickly what plants smell like shit when you burn them. You're like, Oh, this will be a nice oh we'll just burn some of this course you're looking into the metaphysical properties and then like you burn it and you're like, Oh my God, Najah 39:48oh, this is horrible!(laughing)Hilary 39:48 I'm sorry to everyone that lives in this house (laughing)Najah 39:52Oh I know! and then then you know like when you get like comfortable with yourself, you're like ya know? I know everybody says that this is supposed to be but this like stinks! and I don't like it! So you know what, I'm not gonna use it. I'm gonna make this decision. I'm just, I'm not going to do that, because my family doesn't like it. My dog doesn't like it. I don't like it. So okay, check that off.Hilary 40:17Exactly. Well, and what's interesting too, is like, I think we talked about this not that long ago, just when we were chatting on the phone, which is like, it's like, a, it's like practicing anything, you know, if I don't sing regularly, and then I'm like, ooh, I gotta sing this really hard ass song. I'm not, it's not gonna, it's gonna be much harder than if I had been regularly working at it. So I think, you know, with with practice, and again, I cannot agree more with what you said a moment ago, which was that, it's you need to be realistic in what you set for yourself. Because if you go, okay, every morning, I'm going to spend two hours and I'm going to do this thing. I mean, it's not tenable, like it's not, you know, you're like, this is not sustainable. And I think that it's really important when developing what you do on a on a regular basis. I mean, don't get me wrong, I still love the ritual mom.. moments, when I can do something that's really elaborate, where I can, you know, put a little bit more or do something, you know, special or whatever. But I think for those, those things that are daily, that are regular, that are part of that just become part of your routine, you know, and I think that's something that I learned so much from you, which is making them feasible, like, don't tell yourself that you're going to do this crazy ass thing every day, because it's not going to be possible, and then you're going to beat yourself up for it, or you're going to feel bad, or it becomes something that you don't want to do. I think it's like, again, for me, it's like finding something, even if it's like, I get up in the morning, and I light this candle, and I go pour water to my ancestors, or I get up in my morning and I recite this thing that I want to say like whatever it is that you're putting in there, I think that that making it something that is easy to replicate over and over and over again. Because that's the things again, like, sometimes they have to in opera, sometimes they have to sing these crazy ass pieces, right? But the I don't do I mean, the regular practice that I do every day is actually what is more impactful to me in order to be able to do any of those other things. And I think when you can keep that consistency of practice, it's like you're, you're consistently tapped into whatever energy or source or, or magic that you utilize. And so it's not like, Oh, I gotta drum it up from zero, you already have maintained this steady level of connection, you know?Najah 42:44Yeah. And there's time. I mean, like, you know, like, when you've been at it for a while, like, what I do every morning, people would be like, what? I, you know, I don't have time to do all that. But you know, because it's something I do all the time, it only takes me really about, you know, 20 minutes, and I'm done. Yeah, but when I was starting out, I there is no way I'd be so overwhelmed. Ya know? and, and I don't want you know, I don't want the people who are just beginning on the path, or even those of us who are seasoned, you know..to feel guilty? I mean, life is really hard right now. And it's so up in the air from one day to the next. And I strongly and really trying to put out like to just acknowledge and remember who you are, why, why you feel called to this, this block this path. And, and just like give yourself a lot of credit for hanging in there with everything that's happening in the world right now. Because there's just so much pressure and there's already so much guilt in and things are so scary from one day to the next and, you know, the fact that you even turn your mind to magic or witchcraft or magical spirituality, or paganism, or whatever, you know, in any way is, is is a beautiful thing. And sometimes that's all we can do. And and there's just so much trauma going on in the world right now that yes, there are powerful magics and powerful rituals that that we can get into and we can do but try to just give yourself a break too along the way. And I know for myself, like I usually get all worked up around the full moon and I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna do this and this past year has been like No, I don't think so. (both laughing) NO! I'm not doing it! but then all of a sudden I get up in the morning, you know, and there should be you know, out in the sky, and you'll be like, oh, wow, look at that. So I just run in and get my little candle and, you know, my little words that I like to say, and I'm like, oh, wow, I saw her. I did it. Okay, I didn't miss it. But it was like, when I let go, like putting pressure on myself, like I was gonna do this, that or the other, then, you know? Hilary 45:26Yeah, I mean, it.. you know, I was saying to someone the other day, I've said this to a couple people, actually. So I was in a car accident earlier, in 2020. And so, you know, I've had some back pain on and off. This has been a struggle and, but you know, right around the solstice, again, I was like, Okay, I want to do this thing. And I'm gonna do this, like, do this. I had, like, gotten a bunch of stuff together, because I wanted to do this whole ritual. And you know, what, like, my back started hurting real bad. And I was like, I got I started getting into this headspace where I was like, oh, man, I just, I wanted to do this thing. And this sucks. And, you know, like, I was so frustrated. And then I was like, You know what, but like, seriously, you don't have like, you're just gonna have to adapt, you know, because that's what this year has been about is adapting. And so I was like, Yeah, okay, that was like, What can I do? Well, moving around hurts too much. So I'm going to set up this little altar. And I can't like go out. It's cold outside. It was like also, torrential downpour rain. So yeah, sounds like I can't light anything outside, obviously. Right? Right. So like, opened my window, right? And I set up like a little windowsill altar. And I like did everything from my bed, you know, because I was like, being in a specific position helped. And so I was like, you know what? this is just and you know, what I what it reminded me is that simplicity is not less powerful, right? It doesn't, it doesn't take anything away. It isn't any less powerful. And I actually had this really powerful, you know, realization. And actually, actually, I felt like the magic was so strong, because I wasn't like, in my head about what I wanted it to be. I wasn't like dissecting every part of how I was doing this rituals, you know, it was just like, Hey, this is how this is what I have right now, right here. And this is what I'm going to use.Najah 47:22Yeah, ya know? and I think you develop like, just like, I can see you see you in my mind's eye. I think like, it came to me, like you develop like this magical spiritual body persona. It's like this other being inside yourself and even though you were down and out your magical spiritual being said, Hey, I can put this stuff on my windowsill how beautiful is that? Right, and then you can just see it on your windowsill everyday.Hilary 47:52it's like, still, I still have some of it up, because I was like, it's the first thing I see. It's so funny, because it's the first thing I see when I wake up. Like, I'm laying there. And if I open my eyes, it's like, I have an east facing window. I was like, Who knew that I would find is a really cool magic within like this situation that I was so pissed about, you know?Najah 48:14Right, right, exactly. You know, during this time, you know, when you mentioned pouring water to your ancestors, you know, that's, you know, that's something that I do every day. And there were a couple of days when, you know, I was just in such a such a funk. You know, I just, like filled up the cup and went outside and said, Look, you know, you're gonna have to do for me, here's all this water. Okay, I acknowledge you, here it is. But you need to help me out today too cuz, you know, you're over there on the other side, and I'm still in the land of the living. I know, I gotta get through today. So no, I'm going to ask you to help me. And here's this, you know, here's this dump of water to acknowledge that, you know, I acknowledged you, but I need you today and then I just went back inside and shut the door. You know, for five hours,Hilary 49:12I definitely did that too where I'm like...Alright, here's the water. Okay. Like, here it is. I don't have anything else for you right now? I'm sorry.Najah 49:20I'm spending all his time being reverent and honoring you. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You guys are over there on the other side. I'm still here in the land of the living you gotta help me out. Right. Yeah, no, I need some help. I mean, and that's growth right there to go, look, it's not all about you are supposed to be helping us. They're supposed to be helping me. You know, that's, that's why I got into this to help me. You know, not spending so much time with things on the other side in a way that it's not going to help me in my situation. And that's what magic is about. Hilary 50:00Yeah, because then it becomes another, you know, it's like, it's in the same way that if we give too much of ourselves in any realm of life, right, whether it's magical or work or personal or whatever, if we are like, spreading ourselves so thin, right? Or we're just, it doesn't do us any good. It doesn't do us any good. You know, it just gets us to a point where, where you know where it's too much and then it's less effective because it becomes then your practice then becomes the stressor, right? rather than it being something that is like, that you are dedicated to that is also elevating, you know, your life, you know, it then becomes(Najah drops something on the ground) everything okay over there?? You're like, yeah, it is a stressor, fuck this plate! (laughing) Oh my god. I needed this laugh. I love it! It's like the universe was like, you're being too serious right now. We get it! You need to be less serious. Let me make some noise for you that's so funny! As we (laughing) Oh my god, I can't even get it together. People are gonna be like that 30 minutes of laughing in the middle of it. You know what, though? When I listen to other people laugh, it makes me laugh. Really hard so I love itNajah 51:50I love laughing with you it is the momentHilary 51:58I feel like this out whenever Najah and I get together, I feel like this is like what happens, right? Like, we like the two of us are like having a conversation and then somehow we end up cracking up and it's just hysterical. Najah 52:14I know. Right, right?!Hilary 52:16I appreciate that so much.Najah 52:18Thank you, I appreciate the ability to laugh too, it's like gosh it's good to laugh, it is good to laugh.Hilary 52:25It's good. It's definitely good to laugh. Okay, so as we go, so now we're in 2021. We left that dumpster fire year behind. What do you want to see manifest this year? Like, what? What do you want to see? I mean, either in general, or within your magic? In 2021?Najah 52:47Oh, my gosh, Hilary 52:48Such a big question. I know, that's kind of a rude question to ask (laughing)Najah 52:51I just want to I just want to be able to travel, I want to be able to get together with people of like mind, I want to be able to, like be out for more than, you know, a half hour. That's really, I mean, I've gotten so close, you know, that, like, you know, my days consist of, you know, if I go out taking my dog to the dog park, or going into Walgreens or the grocery store, but then it's over in like, 30 minutes. And I like I would like to be out for like four or five hours, you know,Hilary 53:28I know and to be able to connect with people. I mean I like..Najah 53:31I think that's really, you know, what I want and then you know, and then I'm working on my second book, in the Good Ju-Ju Series, and so, you know, if I can finish that, it's already been submitted, thankfully, to my editor, and I'm really happy about that. But then, you know, it got sent back to me, so I got it. I gotta, you know, do that. I mean, that will be the biggest manifestation if I can actually finish this, this bookHilary 54:07will be super good. Well, I'm really excited for this new book, because I love the first book, our listeners love the first book. And I can't wait to read the next one. I'm like so ready I can't wait!Najah 54:20Thank you, I really appreciate your support and encouragement. That was crazy. Because everyone like, during the dumpster fires, you said of 2020 everyone's like, Oh, you know, it must be so great to you know, you just have all this time to write and everything Hilary 54:37Yeah right?! Najah 54:39like, what?!? I can't even get out of the bed. I don't even take a shower now I'm like, you know, and that's for me as a creative person. I need to I get energy, you know, inspiration from being out in the world. So just, you know, hold up and you know in the same place every day is difficult to find that from within, you know, that we pull from to, to create something. So it was really hard.Hilary 55:08And I think too, you know, it's like, I mean, I definitely know that the some of the things that I've learned as a magical practitioner, as a witch, during this time, will carry through. I mean, there's stuff that will like, that won't leave my practice. You know, I think that again, for me that reminder that, like, simplicity is just as powerful that, you know, that consistency is great. But that, like you, you're a human being also and like, sometimes it's gonna be a half assed consistency. And it has to be okay, you know, that, it's like that, you know, we want obviously to, I mean, again, consistency is great, but like that, you know, to give ourselves a break, that we that, you know, like, this is an extraordinarily trying time. And also like when we look at our ancestors, like, who have also been through extraordinarily challenging times in their lifetimes, you know, like, they're probably more able to understand where we're at than anyone that is alive now, you know, because we've never experienced this or, very few of us that are I mean, maybe that the quiet older generation, but most of us have never experienced like, anything like this before.Najah 56:20Well and I started, just kind of, since we, you know, are in these odd times, I started trying to, you know, I gotta find motivation. And so I spend, you know, a lot of time and every day, about the ancestors and those who have gone before me and this, that and the other than the other day, I was like, Well, wait a minute. What about those who come after me?Hilary 56:49Ooh!Najah 56:50What about what? Wait a minute. I know, you know that we honor those who came before us and whose shoulders that we stand on, which is course important. But I had that thought the other day I'm like, wait a minute, what about those who come after me? What am I leaving? What am I creating? What am I putting into motion? And, you know, that's probably a thought I have because of my age. And also because I have grandchildren, we have grandchildren umm I have grown, you know, a son and daughter? And I'm like, What? What about those who come after us? How can I live my life now and create things for those who will be here when I'm not. And that kind of like switched it around for me a little bit? Like, there is going to be a future there are going to be children, people, others who come after us. And they're going to be looking back to see like, Okay, what was going on? What did we do and what did they leave behind? And what can we stand on? So I've been kind of thinking that way a little bit now.Hilary 58:12I love that. I mean, I think that's so true. Because I think, you know, what we do now and how we do it and the legacy we leave behind is gonna really, really affect the people that come after us. You know?Najah 58:27Mmhmm, mmhmm especially since, you know, we're witches, and we walk this path. We're always talking about those on the other side. Well, you know, you're gonna be on that other side too one day(laughing)Hilary 58:39At some pointNajah 58:42Maybe not today.Hilary 58:45Like, definitely not now just putting that out there. Not now everybody!Najah 58:51But, yeah, so I was like, Okay, um, that that's a little bit of a motivation, you know, and that makes me feel better, like, I'm just not spinning my own wheels in the present for no, no reason. Hilary 59:05Yeah. I mean, it also, you know, again, it's like a good way for us to focus our the intention of our magic as that being part of it is like that, what were the things that we're doing are, again, setting up the legacy for those like, you know, years from now are gonna be honoring us as ancestors, you know, so it's like, that's a really, that's a really beautiful thing. Thank you for that.Najah 59:27You know, we live we're living in this extraordinary time where we have so much that's being recorded and archived. Yeah, this is this. These times we're living in are unprecedented. Yeah. So you know, with everybody sharing so much across all the social media platforms that you have. You know, there is this opportunity to leave something good for those who come after us. You know, I had this thought recently, you know, like I, you know, my grandkids get older and they talk to me, well, what were you doing? You know, when all this shit was going down, I'm like, well, honey here, you can look right here. And you can see, this is what I was doing. Okay? You know, justHilary 1:00:18Yeah, yeah, that's it's amazing, right? Because, you know, when we look back, you know, it's it's hard to even find record of what was happening, you know, not so many generations ago. SoNajah 1:00:28it's like, exactly, exactly, you have, you know, you have a recording, you have this great vault of knowledge and, you know, conversation that you guys are creating with the work that you're doing, you know, which is it's so important. And so you're putting into that legacy of time and of magic. I mean, just the fact that you're doing your podcast is is a magical act. The fact that you're just doing it, and what you talk about is that's magic, right there. That's, you know, doesn't always have to be something that, you know, with robes and wands and incense, I mean, you know, just the fact we're having this conversation is magic. And that's what you know, I'm, I'm trying to really start working with the term real magic. You know, this is this is real magic, because we are creating change, through our words through what we're saying through what we're doing. Yeah. You know, and, and that affects people. And that puts like, a positive vibe, out into the universe. And so that's real magic, you know, so there's such a need for stuff that is real, and valid and tangible and helps people. Hilary 1:01:54It's excellent. It's excellent. real magic. Najah 1:01:57Yes. It's excellent, real magic. Hilary 1:01:59Yes. I love it. So, so we know you have this new book coming up. You know, where else can people find you these days? Najah 1:02:07Well, I don't have anything scheduled right now. The year has started, but in terms of classes or anything, but I did make the commitment. I'm published in the Llewellyn's 2021 Spell-a-Day Almanac, this year, so that. So that's 25 spells that I wrote for 2021. And so that breaks down to two spells a month. So twice a month, I'm going to be putting up a recording on YouTube, talking about this spell that I wrote why I wrote it give some insight into what was going on in my mind when I wrote spell for that day. And I'm super excited about that. So people want to go out to my YouTube channel. It's Najah Lightfoot, and you'll see it. And the title is "Spell January 7th" Um, so you'll see that it comes up, you know, the next spell date is January 24th. That'll be the next one. And so I'll be posting recordings all throughout the year to do that. And other than that, like I said, we're gonna finish the second book. Thank you. And, you know, and I'm really hanging out a lot on Instagram and Twitter these days. So, you know, that's really a good place to find me.Hilary 1:03:33Well, I just thank you so much for coming back to chat with me. It's been I mean, I feel so lucky to have met you and connected with you since you first came on and I just am so grateful for you in my life and for coming back on this podcast. And I can't wait to see these videos. And I am so excited for book number two. And so everyone listening we'll make sure to blast that everywhere when that's ready to go. So yeah, so look out for that. And definitely go check out Najah's..go get the almanac that I think that's like a it's the almanac sorry, did I say that right? Najah 1:04:08yes, it's the spell a day almanac for 2021. And it's great because it's a compilation of authors. There's several different authors in the book. So it's really it's really fun. And I love I love being in it and I love doing it. It keeps my magic fresh because I have to, you know, write these spells and, and it's also a good, good, you know, working on the future because we write the spells that are up. I wrote in 2019. Wow, here. Yeah, yeah. So talk about magic, right. There's some faith that 2021 was gonna come around because we're writing for them in 2019.Hilary 1:04:48In 2019. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can't wait to check that out. And everybody else should also and thank you. Thank you. Thank you.Najah 1:04:55Oh and Thank you. Thank you so much. It's delight and thank you having me on and thank you to all your listeners for all your support. And it's such a pleasure. It really is. I so enjoy being on your podcast on your show and, and getting to know all you guys you guys are just absolutely wonderful people and very special.Kanani 1:05:17She's such a good person to have kind of come on and just I know something about her voice is very calm to me.Courtney 1:05:26Well, I one of the things that I loved is when you called her to ask her to be on the show, she and I were actually on a zoom call and she and I were talking about something else and and she's like, Oh, it's Hillary and I said oh pick it up. And I couldn't I could hear a little bit what Hillary was saying. But I knew why she was calling and the look on her face Hillary when you asked her to be the guests that you wanted to talk about you just the love that you two have for each other was just so very obvious. And I I love this interview so much because I love that you guys just you broke up, broke a plate or made a whatever wasHilary 1:06:06I don't know like something from her table fell I think it was like a plate or a saucer or a cup or something. And it fell and and like it just we both lost it. You know like I okay, I really I love talking to Najah because first of all she's like, so down to earth, and so knowledgeable and so kind and you know, she doesn't, she really wants to present these tools to everyone in such a digestible way. Which to me is so amazing. I think there's so much gatekeeping in some of our communities, and Najah's like, No way. Like, let me break it down for you really easily this completely impacted and changed my life. Let me help you change yours too. And I think she does it from such a place of kindness and and the desire to help people. It's not I mean, like, She's so easy to talk to. And for me, she impacted my practice so much. You know, I, I think I struggled to keep the type of consistent practice I wanted. I mean, not that I didn't practice regularly, but like daily, right? Right. Wait, what because, you know, very extravagant, Taurean brain, I'm like, I want to do like everything is a thing, right? It has to be this big thing. And, and what I really learned from Najah is that, that those small, consistent parts of your practice that you do daily, are what make it possible to do the big things, right. And so I think it impacted me rather than regularly practicing, but like, literally making a ritual every day. And also one of the best pieces of advice that she gave me that she gave again, when I spoke with her is that you have to start realistically, you're not going to go if you've never run before, you're not going to be like, well, I'm signing up for the marathon, you're not like it's not you're gonna die, you're gonna like fall apart, right? You have to set a realistic practice for yourself. And it's always such a good reminder, when I talk to her that simple is just as powerful. And that consistency adds so much potency to your magic. And so that impacted me on such a deep level. In how I approach my practice, both from how consistent I did it on a daily basis, but also in how I set it up to be sustainable.Courtney 1:08:30Yeah, that's it and you that really can I also just really appreciated that what she talks about, like, different kinds of magic and yeah, you know, yeah, there's there's magic in words, and there's magic, you don't it's not always spell casting at your altar. And just so I appreciate that. So great. Thank you. Thank you for bringing her back to us Hilary.Hilary 1:08:49Oh my god, it was my absolute pleasure.Courtney 1:08:52Yeah. So got a couple of shout outs here. So first of all, we got a lot of feedback about Theresa Reed's 2021 astrological forecasts, which came out two weeks ago. Yeah, and I was actually I texted her I said, Okay, now so everything is accurate. And she said I know right?Hilary 1:09:13I mean, like so, so accurate. So accurate!!Courtney 1:09:17and who knows what will have happened by the time this this episode is I knowHilary 1:09:20by the time this is out, like I don't even know.Courtney 1:09:24I don't know. So anyway, but if you love Theresa as much as we do, she actually has two great podcasts that you need to check out if you want to learn more about Tarot or astrology. The first is called Tarot Bytes. The other is called Astrology Bytes. These are byte sized lessons for those who want to learn Tarot or astrology but don't have all day so it's super fun and useful, and she's available on all the platforms. Also, a really great reminder to check out the Arcane Botanica. It's a very brand new business specializing in interior plant decor. Proprietor Amanda is offering tailored interior plant scaping for your home or business including individual plant sales, terrariums and custom gifts for all price points based out of Northeast Massachusetts but she does ship. Arcane Botanica works with clients to customize kid and pet safe plants for homes promoting desired energies with specific plant combinations. So for more information, follow @arcanebotanica on Instagram or Facebook or email them at Amanda@. So I also have a couple classes coming up to the day this is released on January 18. I am teaching a class on The Morrigan virtual online through Catland Books on Monday the 25th, I'm teaching a class online on January on Hekate. So you can go to our show notes page or to Catland Books to sign up. I am teaching a tarot 101 class in February a five week series hosted by Pathways St. Louis, also go to our show notes or to Pathway St. Louis to sign up. And Kanani, how are the spell kits going?Hilary 1:11:07SPELL KITS!Kanani 1:11:08oh my goodness. People love our spell kits. And I love that you love our spell kits. Hilary 1:11:15They are on fire!Kanani 1:11:17Oh my gosh, we we've had so many people love and send me messages about the Imbolc spell kits that I am super excited about. And we I was I'm not supposed to talk about it on this podcast. I'm supposed to wait till next week. But I'm not going to Oh, I might be working on some Love Spell kits that we'll be releasing soon. And I'm not going to tell you anything about them except for the fact that I'm eating some chocolate right now. So that is all you get to know about the fact that in two weeks, we will be releasing Love Spell kits to our Etsy site. But I'm just I'm so excited. I love the fact that people are using them. I love the fact that people you know are similar to it kind of I don't know, for me, it's nice because this is this is how I work. This is how I operate. I'm like, I don't have a lot of time. Hand me the kit have it all ready to go and and thank you so much. So it's fun for me that other people kind of are of similar mind where it's like, hey, everything's just right here, I'm just gonna take this and go soCourtney 1:12:24add to cart super shiny.Kanani 1:12:26Absolutely. And I and I you know, always try and be thoughtful about what we include. And Courtney writes the spells and, and Hillary does all the herbs. So it's such a To me, it's such a fabulous combination of kind of all of us together. So I love the fact that people love them. I love putting them together. So please keep buying them so I can please keep putting them together. And like I said, we've got some Love Spell kits coming up soon. And just keep checking our Etsy site because we're gonna keep coming up with more and more ideasCourtney 1:12:58to everybody who's supporting us in that way, Etsy, or on Patreon. For those of us for those of you who do support us on Patreon last week, we released a deep dive with Reverend Phoenix Coffin-Williams all about thought forms. So for as little as $1 a month, you can get access to that conversation and other witchy content. Higher levels, gets you access to our private Facebook page, quarterly special events, and boxes of goodies, including your very own screaming goat. Our next quarterly event is a LIVE Imbolc Ritual on Sunday, January 31 at 10am Pacific time, which we will be holding via zoom. So if you join us at the $5 level or above, you can join us for that it will be recorded. So if you can't make at that time, you can catch up with it later and do it on your own time. And if you join us at the kanani boyfriend, girlfriend envy-friend level, I pull a tarot card for you and today I'm pulling for Crystal. Okay, I got Temperance. So temperance is a card of balance. It is a card of moderation. And it does mean that it's time to take a break. It is time to slow down. It's time to be in touch with your body and it's time to draw boundaries. Crystal, did you hear that? Temperance wants you to draw boundaries. So anybody who's making you crazy and miserable? No, it's time to stop all right?! Make sure you're making some time for yourself to eat, drink water, and, and be good to you. So thank you Crystal for being a Kanani: girlfriend/boyfriend/envy-friend level because we do not assume gender identity around here. And other ways to support the show, if you can't do a monthly donation you could always buy us a coffee again. We also have That Witch Life merchandise on Etsy. You can also become um, consider becoming an episode sponsor. It's a great way to promote your business to thousands of witches or purchase a shout out. So please visit us at for more uhh let's hear a word from our sponsors before we hear my incredible interview with David Shi.Hilary 1:14:58In November we had the amazing Dawn Hunt of Cucina Aurora on the show to talk all about food magick, and since then, we've all been obsessed with Cucina Aurora and their line of magical and delicious products.Courtney 1:15:10Seriously, I dressed my holiday dinner with a savory sage oil charged for wisdom and knowledge and I bought my food-loving In-laws Cucina Aurora gift sets, which include infused olive oils, a garlic infused olive oil for protection, and a Rosemary oregano infused olive oil charged for peaceful energy. I was delighted when Kanani bought me the same set for my Yule present.Kanani 1:15:41Now that I've done buying for other people, I am all about getting a bunch of this for myself because I am so excited! Cucina Aurora's oils are all made by hand and they do visualization and meditation over all of them as they're made. So they are infused with not just the flavors but also the energies of the herbs and spices. Hilary 1:15:54And what's super awesome is that Dawn now has a new cookbook available: "A Kitchen Witch’s Guide to Recipes for Love & Romance". There are just so many good recipes in this book that are both delicious and will also help you focus in on the areas of love you'd like to enhance.Courtney 1:16:08I am someone who cooks a lot so it's a great tool for me to plan meals that complement the magical work I'm doing. For example, She has a kale chickpea and quinoa salad designed for both health and opening the heart chakra. But this is a great book for witch's who don't cook too. You can use it to think about which foods you might want to eat that will support your magickal work as she lists the magickal properties in many common foods.Hilary 1:16:32Whether you're interested in "A Kitchen Witch’s Guide to Recipes for Love & Romance" or any of the other amazing oils or magickal foods products that Cucina Aurora offers. They have a special rate for our listeners, go to and enter "thatwitchlife2021" at checkout to get 10% off. The offer is good all year. Thank you so much to Cucina Aurora for being an episode sponsor.Kanani 1:16:57If you've listened to us at all, you know that all three of us are completely obsessed with Shiny Pretty Things, especially me.Courtney 1:17:04Shiny Pretty Things include tattoos and piercings as well as jewelry.Hilary 1:17:092020 was a total drag so 2021 is the perfect time to be the best sparkliest version of yourself with some custom tattoo work, killer jewelry, or a new piercing.Kanani 1:17:19Adorn Body Art has unique jewelry designs from vendors all over the world. So we were super excited to partner with Adorn as an episode sponsor!Hilary 1:17:27Established in 2000, Adorn is a woman-owned Tattoo-Piercing jewelry studio dedicated to offering the best service to their clients and local community with three thriving locations in Southeast Portland, Beaverton, and Vancouver, Washington.Courtney 1:17:41Adorn selection is not only the largest in the Pacific Northwest, but they also carry the highest quality of ornate, ethically sourced natural adornments which is a big deal for me. From Amethyst to Rutilated Quartz, to Tiger's Eye and Citrine. They have jewelry options with stones for every chakra and you can order online.Kanani 1:18:00The thing that separates Adorn from other studios is that they are focused on art and not attitude. Their mission is to help their clients feel like the truest version of themselves and achieve body autonomy.Hilary 1:18:11If you're looking to get pierced Adorn can also assist with custom creating the piece of jewelry of your dreams to be as unique as you so the possibilities are endless with ongoing education for each piercer who is also certified through the Association of Professional piercers and state of the art sterilization and sanitation you are always safe and get the very best when you come to Adorn.Courtney 1:18:31Adorn operates by appointment only, so go to where you can also see a sneak peek of the gorgeous jewelry that they carry.Hilary 1:18:41Adorn and is just amazing, so make sure you check out their incredible jewelry selection or book an appointment today. Thank you to Adorn Body Art for being an episode sponsor.Courtney 1:18:50Alright, so I had a really wonderful time talking to David he's just one of my dearest friends and I was delighted that he made the time for me to to share that with him. A little emotional for me in a couple places just because it's it's just a really someone I really hold dear and was really grateful to have this time with him. So if you all haven't heard David speak David Shi is a spiritual worker and a folk magic practitioner of Manchurian descent. Raised in a household that incorporated both southeast Siberian and North Chinese practices. David has dedicated his spare time to the study of spiritual traditions of his ancestors and of greater Eurasia. Recognized as a sagaasha/ongodtengertei or a future shaman prior to initiation among Mongolian and Korean shamans. David's practices are deeply rooted in spirit work, which is ancestral and land spirits are called to empower all workings. David is the author of the book North Asian magic spellcraft from Manchuria, Mongolia and Siberia, and has conducted workshops across the country including Catland books. The Hoodoo Heritage Festival sponsored by Lucky Mojo Curio Company and On Sacred Ground by Chia Armand. David also teaches the Korean traditional drumming art of Poongmul-nori. So how have you been? David Shi 1:20:06Oh, you know, hanging in there for these? I think you know, these past couple of months I was out here, kind of on the west coast. I'm currently in the Las Vegas area where my parents live.Courtney 1:20:21So are you out on the West Coast permanently now? You left New York behind?David Shi 1:20:24No, no, it's temporary, really, it was supposed to be for the holidays. But you know, figure, I actually flew out here in early November before the surge really happened. And right now I'm kind of just parked here until I figure out when and how to get back. So I'm still paying rent for New York.Courtney 1:20:46Oh, my God. Well, I'm really glad that you came back to talk with me and to be on the show again, because, you know, the three of us sat down and talked about like, who has had the most impact on us personally, and honestly, all of our guests have have shaped my magic one way or another. But when I look at how I'm practicing now, I really can trace it back to that conversation with us back in, you know, I guess it was June, the work that you do, in, in researching the practices of many of which have been lost, because as you explained to me, the communist takeover of that part of the world, and just capitalism and Western influence, so much has been lost. But then you've been part of this, this intentional revival, but not just not just revival, but also like adopting it for a way that a modern pagan like yourself can practice. I mean, am I completely off base? Or is it Am I kind of, am I kind of go in the right direction of what your path is in life?David Shi 1:21:51You know, in a way, yes, that's kind of been somewhat of the theme that I've been pursuing. But what I've come to discover is that, especially in the regions of North Asia, there's a lot of places that are so remote and hidden, and really hard to find that since since 1990 since the days of communism have relaxed, I wouldn't say have gone away but have relaxed, a lot of influences, and even people from those remote areas, are they coming out and becoming more public and I have been very fortunate enough to find them. Very, very fortunate to find them. So to really help fill in a lot of the the missing pieces. So So initially, if you talk to anyone 10 years ago, or even 20-30 years ago, then the yes the statement we yes, these practices are lost, when really they've been hidden so well that most of the people from there did not know that they were still preserved. And that's what I've come to find. And it's actually helped to shape my practice tremendously. I think when we had conversations several years ago in New York versus now I think my practice has shifted so much because of what I've been able to discover or rediscover from from these really hidden remote areas like I'll tell you how remote this these areas are there these areas are so remote that you need either a Land Rover or a Soviet style Jeep to get to and only when the roads like when the roads muddy, forget it you're not getting in there. It's that remote.Courtney 1:23:33Oh my god.David Shi 1:23:34Yeah. So. So really, it's, it's also come down to the fact that I am Asian American and from a lesser known Asian culture. So it's so as you said, it's, I'm I've been trying to find a way to sort of revive these practices and revive, revive what the spirits have been trying to tell me through a practice in which I am currently an American living in America. So I think that actually does translate well, even not only just for Asian Americans who are so starved of their own indigenous spiritualities, but also even for Westerners who are interested because at the end of the day, even even when someone's not being what, even when there's like cultural appropriation that's not involved. There's a lot of key foundational concepts, some of which I shared in our last conversation, a lot of foundational concepts that are very relevant and really provide a unique perspective on how even Westerners or Europeans can really enhance, enhance their magical practices really.Courtney 1:24:42So when I first met you in New York City, so you were doing everything. You You were taking hoodoo classes. David Shi 1:24:50Yes.Courtney 1:24:51You were coming to my kind of European American mishmash, big public circles. You were going for the gay men groups, so the Minoan brotherhood. And you were taking Korean drumming as I as I remember am I, am I correct?David Shi 1:25:06Yeah, yeah, that's a pretty good summary.Courtney 1:25:09Okay, some random like, I think I even saw you at some Druid circles. I think you were ever you were like everywhere if there was something magical going on David was there.David Shi 1:25:18This was really like 2000 I think it was like the height of between 2013 and 2015. I think whatever I saw going on at the time, I went to check it out and see what it's about. Because at that time, it was, I was beginning one phase of my spiritual life in which my spirits are really starting to come out with more direct messages than I'd gone before. And they were really telling me just go explore through learn all of these things from the practices that are around you. And something and so I checked out a lot of things, some things my spirits were like, definitely do that more. And other things were like, yeah, you don't have to come back. So yeah, between 2013 and 2015, I've from 2015 on I've really narrowed the circles that I was involved in, and sometimes they would overlap, sometimes they wouldn't. I think it also came down to the fact that there was a very important community, which you are definitely involved in with which Courtney 1:26:20Yeah, ya think?! David Shi 1:26:23Which I was really able to find that sort of fellowship, where even if it's not necessarily my cultural practices, there was an innate understanding of spiritual and magical practices, which, again, really emphasized on those key foundational aspects on why the stuff that we can do, what can how can we make spiritual work and magickal work more accessible on a little bit more of a universal basis. And a lot of it is from the specific frames of the various traditions, whether their cultural traditions or individual spiritual traditions. And it really, I think, at that point in my life, it was really putting things into perspective for me, and which is actually funny, because I was thinking right before coming on that the fact that you said, my practice, what I've been doing has been so influential on your work that I consider that to be extremely high praise, considering the leadership role you had, during that stage of my life, when I was very much of, for lack of a better term, a newbie adult witch!Courtney 1:27:35Yeah, but you know, you never carried the newbie energy. One of the things that I've always liked about you is that you've always gone in to everything you do, whether it is, you know, whether it's hanging out with a Minuan brotherhood and learning that those practices or how to make Southern fried chicken, like, you come in with this is absolutely astute curiosity. And you know, and you, you ask questions, and you pay attention, you're like, I would like to learn more about this, and you never, you, you, you're always very open to sharing information, which is appropriate for you to share. But you never pretend I never get the sense that you pretend to know, or you get uncomfortable with not knowing which I feel like is something a lot of witch's struggle with, when they're like, Oh, I don't know, something, are people gonna judge me? And it's like, well, gosh, you know, I mean, looking like that. I think if witch's were more comfortable in asking the questions, I think that they would be more like you and how their, their path would open up to them in a much cleaner. And, you know, I don't necessarily mean faster, like speed. I don't know that faster isn't important. But I mean, unencumbered, like this slow path, but at least it's clear, you know. So I think that's important. And also one of the challenges that I had for many years. And it was a big, blind spot for me that I didn't want to see is that being so deeply involved with running community, I wasn't paying enough attention to my spiritual practice. And that was a huge problem for me. At the end, it led to some very serious burnout. And it's only been the last couple years that I've been able to come back out of that. And one of the things for me was that once I took the leadership role off my shoulders, and I had people fight me on this, even across the country, were like, No, you should still be our leader, even though you live 3000 miles away in the country with us here in New York City by zoom! teleporters do it! No! I mean, even if I were there, I needed to take I needed to take some time I wasn't I was at a point where I needed to stop and I, I realized I had so like when I came back to Oregon. All of my magic supplies were on a moving truck, like, you know, driving slowly across the country. We were in an apartment that didn't allow us to use flame. So I couldn't light my incense. I didn't have any tools. I Just had myself. And at first I was, there was a time where I was like I want no, I gave away almost all my magical supplies when I left New York, I shoved them off on my old coven I said, all of y'all take this stuff and get out of my house. And that sounds a lot cooler than it was. It's just the way I used to talk to them. But ummDavid Shi 1:30:18I could imagine it.. I could imagine that very clearly,Courtney 1:30:23they were like, Okay, take the stuff. Um, but I, I, I wanted that connection back with my magic. And then just being in this very sterile apartment was really hard. I hardly even had any furniture, you know. So it was really being stripped to the bare bones. And we finally moved into our permanent home and my materials arrived, and I started looking through them. And I realized that most of them weren't me anymore. In fact, I actually gave away my old altar, because it just was not me. But I had to come back and figure out my path. And one of the things you said what you said a number of things that were impactful, but I could say the one thing you said that resonated me was so deeply to help me it was that you said everything has to come through the land spirits, even your ancestors have to come through the land spirits. Yeah, yeah, that made sense. Okay, that they're here. So yeah, my ancestors come from the Ukraine and from Western England and Scotland and Ireland. And the slov is like what is now Slovakia. And probably some other places, too. You know, I'm a big mutt of Western Europe. All the angry countries, I didn't get any of the no Swedish in me whatsoever. It's all the angry people that throw things don't make my don't make my ancestors mad. But here in the United States I've got 300 years of history in North Carolina, which is still 300 miles, still 3000 miles away. So I think that I started going out every morning and pouring water to land spirits. Water being the purest offering that I could give that I knew would not harm any wildlife. And especially in Oregon summers or our summers are very dry. It was a welcome offering now since we've been so that as soon as I started doing that, I started having more connections with land spirits, and you helped me understand them. Like about a week after our conversation, a wasp stung me in the ass. Remember this? David Shi 1:32:24I was like Yeah, yeah she told me.Courtney 1:32:26I was like DAVID! I got a visit from the land spirits. Actually, no, I think I was telling you. Oh, haha, guess what happened to me today? And you're like, Huh, you know, I wonder if that's a visit from a land spirit trying to get your attention and you help me. You talk through that. Not only that, you know, wasp, or bee venom is as as painful as it can be and how dangerous it can be to some, it's also is a healing. There's there's healing benefits to it. And so, yeah, it's a medicine. So thank you that's a word I couldn't think of, and so that, that I, and it was really odd, because then that night, I had a dream about a Goddess from one of the volcanoes in Hawaii. And I wasn't sure which one but she came to me and she said, I'd like you to meet my sister. And I'm like, Okay, and then she introduces me to this woman who looks native, but she was wearing the regalia of some of the Pacific Northwest tribes. And she was very old, and she had braids and her her hair, Her hair was very gray. And I woke up kind of confused, but then I thought about it. I mean, the volcanoes in our area are the same. They're the same ring of fire as those in Hawaii. So they are sisters. And then you said to me, Well, I think it's strange that a woman from that you're seeing a Goddess from Hawaii. Unless you've had communication with someone Polynesian in the last few days. I'm like, actually, I did like a day before that. I had had a conversation with an indigenous person who was from Hawaii. David Shi 1:33:57Wow!Courtney 1:33:58And what I realized later, and then it did that work actually helped me understand an omen that I had about the Oregon wildfires. On my birthday, which was on a Friday, which the fact that's on a Friday is important, and I'll explain in a minute, I went out to my do the compost and there was a perfect Blue Jay feather right at my feet. Now again, you and I have also talked about animals symbolism and that not every animal that appears to you is trying to tell you something, but it's like, Is there something different about the encounter, and the fact that there was a blue jay feather at my feet, to me was significant on my birthday. You know that. Okay, this is not just me finding a feather in the yard. It is literally in crossing my path on an auspicious day. I wonder what this means. And so I first started by thinking about what you said is go through the land spirits for Well, I looked up the lore for the local, local nations, a Pacific Northwest that had some lore on the Blue Jays. And the only one I found was the Chinook and the Chinook. Yeah, yeah, the Chinook people said that a bluejay is a trickster, but generally benevolent. Okay. So now that I've understood the message from the land spirits, I took a step back. And instead of, you know, so many people, especially white people go racing for their European roots right away, and it's like, well, let's, let's walk backwards, I think you're gonna find more meaning there. So my next stop was in Appalachia, where my mom's family's from. And there was an African piece of African American folklore. And even though you know, I'm white, they're all African American folklore and practices have had a huge influence on white conjurer practitioners of Appalachia. So it's, it's at least. And so I did find that the blue jay can actually be a negative Omen can be not always, it's not that the blue jay goes to hell, in order he goes to hell on Saturday and comes back on Friday, I think that's, that's the lore or maybe he goes on Friday, on Saturday, and my birthday was Saturday, I'd have to actually miss my birthday was Saturday. So it was it was, it was the day the bad day to see a blue jay. So the lore is that the blue jay goes to hell on Friday to tell to tattle on all the children of Earth to the devil. Now, sometimes, the blue jay is telling the devil just like, you know, kind of BS things like well, so and so was drinking, so and so was gambling, so and so was running around; things that are not really harmful to humanity. But the blue jay will also tattle on the devil, the great sense of humanity, such as slavery. So the blue jay has a couple of different roles, that if you see a blue jay or blue jay crosses your path on a Saturday, it's a bad omen, because it means he's on his way back from hell. So, I was like, Oh, my there's a blue jay feather crossing my path on my birthday. What does this mean? And so that what I gathered from it is something not good. And something hell Hellfire, haha. But, you know, could be bad could be good fires can be good for forests under certain circumstances. But they can also be really, but they are obviously very terrible for homes and communities. And they're really bad if you suppress them. So all of these pieces came together. And I was like, and if you just kind of led gone into lean too much, not not saying that everything Neo pagan is bad or not good. But if if I had just leaned into what people had, might be writing on Internet's or blogs that say, what the bluejay just wants to be your friend is obviously a good ally for you. And I'm like, but if I look at the land spirits, and I look at my ancestors, what they would say, I don't think that's what they're trying to tell me. I think they're trying to warn me that something pretty nasty is on its way from hell, literally what happened to Oregon was, but it also I think, because the blue jay has a benevolent side, I think it's saying, but you're gonna be okay. And we were okay. We didn't have to evacuate. We obviously didn't lose our home. And so many people lost lost so much of that. But I, I don't think I could have read that Omen as I had, if we had not had the conversations that we had about land spirits, about following ancestry, and that I really appreciate the way that you break down practices that you've learned from your ancestral traditions and saying, here's a way to approach magic in general, that doesn't involve like say, copying from me. But you can still do things that have the same, you know, that have the same outcome, you know, but you can just do something that's a little more appropriate for your region or your background. And you even wrote to us with a with a suggestion for a woman who was trying to protect herself. You're like, this is what we do in the Mongolian tradition. But you can absolutely do this, because this is not secret. This is not anything that you can't do. And so I thought that was great.David Shi 1:39:10You know, that little bit of ceremony that was actually exactly what elder shamans in Mongolia did, in April when the pandemic hit New York the hardest, and that's actually it will, we didn't tune in live through zoom because, you know, signal to that remote area is not great, but it's something that we had all times and we actually had done together a bunch of people in that area and Mongolia as well as other people in Europe and North America. And and yeah, I didn't want to reveal so much that it would like leak any cultural secrets, but I feel like while I had released is, like simple enough things that are not you know, it's like borderline like that you can do this and it's it's It's not something that I was trying to dance around the word obvious because it's not so obvious, but it's simple things. And I'm really happy to hear that story. It's the thing with the land spirits is that in even in the north Asia regions, while people generally do honor the land spirits, they are low key also terrified of disrespecting land spirits, because the wrath that they can bring, such as, you know, fires, or floods is honestly quite terrible. So, so over there, there's always a consciousness about not only how we treat the land, how we treats, like literally the plants and the animals around us. The funny thing with animals is their idea of animals and animal spirits is a little different from from the west, and I do it, it will sound a little harsh. So I do want to add a disclaimer, they do consider animals individually to be below humans in the sense of a spiritual power, Spiritual Hierarchy. But that being said, animals are like humans, are essentially properties of Earth, of the land spirits, they belong to the land spirits. And so what can often happen is with these animal signs and animal sightings, if there is a spiritual motivation, or spiritual intent behind it, what that means is that land spirit has in that moment, either sent that particular animal or possessed the animal to nor to relay a message to us. So in that role,they almost play play a sacred role in which is why there's like ceremonies behind hunting and fishing and everything. But But yeah, because of that, there is a lot of respect for animals, even though there was no worship of animals, because animals, in the sacred sense, are just representatives of the Earth Spirits, there's actually, one thing that I learned just recently is that when, when people when spiritual people become ancestors and ancestral spirits, the next generation, oftentimes, if the person is buried out in nature, which means they're not in the casket, whichever animal actually breaks the circle of the pelvic bone actually becomes the spirit animal, almost like a familiar but ancestral familiar to, to the person to the, to their spirits. So essentially, whenever they appear for their descendants, it will often be relayed, or through that animal.Courtney 1:42:46That makes sense because I think, I think the recognition that these that these moments are nuanced, maybe it's fair to say that they're complicated, and that they're just, not every animal is there, I feel like the the western idea of animals being just like, every animal Spirit wants to be your ally, it's like, that's not true at all. That's not true. And that's just kind of goes with the same mentality that has really harmed our relationship with the environment is a thought that everything around us is meant to serve us. And is it is exists only to help us. And there may be times that they do I mean, I like if people have come across an injured animal in the you know, the woods and injured duck or something that's not going to harm them, they might take it to a vet and or animal control. It's great that they were there and maybe Spirit led them there, but their entire existence was not to help that animal. But it seems as though people seem to think that animals entire existence is to help us. And that's just not this is not true. You know,David Shi 1:43:54that's almost like a semi colonial like, path of thinking.Courtney 1:43:58Yeah, I would say it's full on colonial path of thinking it's everything is meant for us and is grateful that we are absorbing it and chewing it up and turning it into a you know, a cesspool that's like, No, that's not true at all. Well, I won't take up much more of your time, David, I'm really grateful that you've made the space. It just is, you know, what do you have coming up? I know there's some secret projects you're working on. I know you can't tell folks but what else can you What else do you have going on right now?David Shi 1:44:28Right now it's just you know, just laying low one thing that I will reveal because it's it's somewhat of an open secret is that I am doing more writingCourtney 1:44:40Yeah, yes.David Shi 1:44:43Yeah, I am doing more writing. It's the part of the reason why um there's secrecy is because I don't know if it'll go anywhere. But I am. I am on the computer typing up a lot of, a lot of words and right now I'm in, in almost a place where even with, you know, continued lockdowns, and with the pandemic, everything I feel like I have been more active in connecting with, with more people, ironically, right, it's connecting more people with more people learning new things, and also learning new teachings. Because everyone's in lockdown, I've actually been able to talk with more people who are directly from North Asian traditions, or people who have spent significant amounts of time there to sort of increase my own teachings. The one, one last thing I want to just say, with the animals, and I think this is something that's really beautiful, it's kind of a little bit of a segue is that most of the time when spiritual people do spiritual work, or calling out to spirits, to come to us, in the cases, when we are out in nature, and we come across these animal signs, or it's clearly an animal doing something unusual to get your attention or in your attention. That's one of the rare times when we are, we don't have to call to the spirits to come to us, they actually have come to call to us, where we know we don't have to do the work of ceremonial ritual to get to them, they've already are coming down to us, though, of course, the the polite thing to do is all whatever offerings or whatever you have on hand, that can be offerings to give them. But that's actually a great time to do prayers and to ask for, for blessings after you do the offerings. Because you it's not a situation where you're trying to get their attention. They're trying to get your attention. So you so you got their attention. So that's, that's something I did want to share about that. And that only just I only know that and came to that little bit of wisdom and insight is because I have been recently connecting with traditional shamanic practice practitioners from from several of my ancestral traditions. And, and yeah, so that's kind of things I'm working on right now. I know that in 2020, I've done a lot of online teaching. Actually, it was after our last conversation on that witch life, the I actually did appear on several online classes where I taught some things from my traditions. And one, one of the questions that was asked of me, is that is there currently a resource on the just a basic resource on the different types of traditions in North Asia? Like, they're they all have similarities, but is there a sort of a breakdown that like, there's this group of people, and then there's that group of people? And in my head, I was like, Huh, this there is not the answer is there is not No, but this is something that I really wish I had six years ago. So that has been something that I've been thinking about a lot. And it's something it's part of sort of the mindsets, the thought process I have with my current of writing projects, basically an untapped opportunity there that I've been thinking very deeply about. So otherwise, just on the, on the spiritual aspect, I guess, that that those are really the big things. Hopefully, we'll see some fruition. I know, I wrote a post on Facebook that, like with the 2020 year I've been putting, I've been laying a little bit more of a foundation for sort of the next phase of my spiritual life, my public life, even my professional life, because, you know, I turned 30 last year. So going to my 30. So I hope so, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic that by the end of 2021, I will have done more classes, I will have connected with more people, exchange teachings here and there. And, um, and yeah, I think one of the things I mentioned on one of the, it was at Witch's Fest, actually, I think we both taught there one of the things that I, one of the things I had expressed is one thing I hope to do is be able to have more of a connection being built between some of the Western spiritual, magical traditions and the ones that I come from because right now, there are communities, they're extremely separate, you would think that there will be overlap from people, for example, people doing traditional shamanism versus people doing witchcraft. In reality, there is no overlap at all completely different people who have no idea who each other are. The only way that there is kind of sort of but not really no overlap is that in the western traditions, there are people who practice Western harder style core shamanism, but in reality that has not too much in common with traditional shamanism. Tradition is traditions. If anything, people in traditional shamanism actually very much look down upon people in that core shamanism school. So what's the one thing that I hope to be able to do is, during my time in New York, as you know, I've sort of attended a lot of different things made a lot of done a lot of networking made a lot of connections with a lot of people in some of the Western tradition. So I hope to be able to be something of a make something of a bridge or connection between these communities. I'm not sure how much will actually happen. But you know, wouldn't it be nice?Courtney 1:50:52You know, I think you're doing remarkable and I think that you were remarkable, you're doing remarkable things. And so where can people connect with you to find out about, you know, future classes when you're writing when it gets published? Not if but when! So where can can I it's, you know, last year was Facebook, Is that still the best way to follow you? Or if you got some other social media platforms that you started?David Shi 1:51:15At the moment, it's still Facebook, but I am in the process of building other social media platforms, I technically still have an Instagram, which I do plan to expand. And I do plan to make some additional pages on both Facebook, maybe even Twitter as well. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to handle the tik tok world.Courtney 1:51:42I'm trying as well on that one.David Shi 1:51:44Yeah. So so right. So as of the moment, it's still primarily, Facebook, actually, several people have reached out to me after our last conversation, and I do reply back, sometimes I'm a little slow, but I definitely do reply back. And several people have reached out to me with questions, and I answered them. So for now, that's still, that's probably still the best way for now. But if there are additional ways, I will probably make that announcement on my main Facebook anyways.Courtney 1:52:15That's good to know. Well, um it is a shame for your sake, that this pandemic has locked everything up because I remember you were very good with gambling magick last time you were in Las Vegas. So I was gonna ask you about that. I'm like, No, I don't think anybody's going to casinos right now.David Shi 1:52:32People are! That's what's scaring me is that people are Courtney 1:52:36Oh! David, don't let that be you. As good as you are at gambling, please don't go.David Shi 1:52:39No, I'm not. I'm definitely not. It's, I mean, I know that since like, around Thanksgiving they that's when they put in the 25% capacity. And I'm like, you didn't do that earlier. Yeah, so yeah, I'm not gonna be doing that. It's. I'm a little rusty on the gambling magic. I actually did that a lot when I was in Hong Kong, because Macau was just a stone's throw away. Yeah, Macau is the big gambling stay there. That's why I really honed it. I know. I in Vegas. I only tried a couple like once or twice and I think I got like $300-400. So you know, nothing substantial, butCourtney 1:53:19Hey! a car payment. That's a car payment for most people. David Shi 1:53:22That is true. That is true! Courtney 1:53:25Well, David, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me again. And I miss you. And when this pandemic is lifted, I hope you come visit me and my husband up here in the Pacific Northwest and we'll go We'll go explore some magic and uh have some good times.David Shi 1:53:40Yeah, I definitely really want to try especially since more of my family's out here out west. Yeah, I miss you too. I really want to visit up there and see you again.Courtney 1:53:51Yeah, come on out. We'll go crabbing. My husband just bought crab pots. We'll teach you how to crab if you don't have never been.David Shi 1:53:56I have been crabbing before.Courtney 1:53:59Alright, well, then you're you're seasoned at it. Alright friend. Thanks again, please stay safe. And thanks for coming back on today.David Shi 1:54:08Always a pleasure. Thank you very much.Hilary 1:54:10I love David. I feel like David is so I love his energy because it's very, like it's, it's like to the point but also very kind the same time. You know, it's like he does not like he's very, like, straightened to the point when he when he brings up topics or if he's giving advice, but but I think he does it in such a like, kind, gentle way. And I just think he's so insightful. You know, I also loved the recounting of the bee stinging you on the ass story. Because it's so, so funny. But also I loved the reminder. I mean, I know it. You guys talked a little bit again about you know how we often want to, especially in Western society, we want to like make animals be a thing every time. Oh, I saw a deer, so it must mean this Oh, I saw this because of this, oh my gosh, I saw a salamander. It's for sure a spirit, where I'm like, not always. And it's a good reminder that we want to look for things and discern that like, discern between them. Whether it's something that is just like, Well, yeah, we live somewhere where you're gonna see a raccoon sometime, right? Or if that the setting it's in, or something about it is unusual. And so I loved you talking about the blue jay feather, I thought it's just a really good example of, you know, of a reminder of, you know, part of getting those messages is being really intune with your surroundings and understanding what is relevant and what is what is just a deer walking across the grass, you know what I mean?Courtney 1:55:52It's such a grounded approach. And, and I think that having, having a bit of, I don't wanna say skepticism, because I don't feel that about David's approach. But I do feel that there's a, he has a very pragmatic approach to what he does. And I don't think that being pragmatic makes things less magical, because because then, when those moments really are clear that something wonderful and spiritual has happened, it makes them all the more meaningful.Kanani 1:56:26One of the things I thought was really interesting with all of our interviews was because we didn't we never we didn't talk about what we were going to talk about, right with our interviewees, we just kind of all said, you know, hey, pick pick who really spoke to you and and interview them. One of the things that I thought was really interesting, that I noticed kind of flew through all the interviews was, how did you? How did your magic we all kind of asked same question, which was, how did your magic change? or What did you do magically in the last year with all the crazy that was going on? And one of the things that was interesting to me was, so many of the answers were that people leaned into their magic. Yes. And and that was something he mentioned, how he really kind of was really getting into more, more deeper levels of magic. And I thought that was really interesting, because that was, although we didn't like discuss that, that kind of cohesively came through all the interviews. Right. Yeah, that during this time, one of the ways that people kind of got through it was to really lean into their magical practices.Courtney 1:57:38Yes, yes, absolutely. So I was just really thankful that he came back and spoke with me, and it will not be the last time he hears from me, but hopefully, it will not involve a wasp stinging my ass.Hilary 1:57:51But I mean, but for us for our entertainment, maybe it should.Kanani 1:57:55If it would just be there, so that we could film it and put it on the YouTube.Hilary 1:58:00Why do you want to take away our happiness? Like, just let us be happy with a wasp stinging you on the ass. Courtney 1:58:05It's actually very easy to take your happiness away because you get annoyed easily. So there we are. Before we get to um.. I remember one time Kanani was angry about my shoes. She didn't like the shoes I was wearing. And she just kept saying your shoes make me angry and she was stomping around Hillary's house. She was in a really terrible mood because she didn't like my shoes...Hilary 1:58:26WHAT?Kanani 1:58:28I vaguely remember this. I mean, I believe you 100% sounds like something I would do. I'm just trying to remember why I was angry about your shoes.Hilary 1:58:36I mean, it's funny because I responded as though I was shocked but like, I don't know why I would be shocked by that.Courtney 1:58:40I have these awesome shoes that are they look like a steno notebook. One shoe looks like the black and white cover. Kanani 1:58:46I hate those shoes Courtney 1:58:47and the other one looks like a lined piece of paper. Hilary 1:58:52I love those shoes they're so cute. Courtney 1:58:54Everybody hates them, but Kanani, she goes your shoes make me angry.Kanani 1:58:57Oh! they make me angry.Hilary 1:59:01Oh my god. Everybody loves those shoes. Why are you such a hater?Kanani 1:59:04I hate those shoes. Because they first of all, they don't match which wigs me out because I'm just like, that's part of my like, pet needing things to be paired and like organized and nice. And I'm just like, No, no, no. So you know, I'm upset. You've upset me.Courtney 1:59:20Oh before we get to your interview with Annwyn we did have a listener question and it says, Hey, y'all, I'm 16 and confused on where to start. I've never been a part of any type of religious or spiritual stuff. But I've always felt that I might be missing something and I needed to do something. After digging deeper and listening to other people's stories, including you guys. I've come to a conclusion that I want to be part of the community and dig deeper into finding out what I can do. I've had dreams that can tell the future. When I got my first deck of tarot cards. I did a reading on myself. I'm not sure if I did it right or not. But the reading was definitely what I was thinking through at the time and it freaked me out. Even though even If I didn't do it right, I still think my dreams try to tell me something. And they become more constant recently, and I've always been I've almost been having dreams every night. So my question for you guys is what books should I look for to get started? Or some tips for my dreams, like what I can do to make them go past just small conversations? And how can I break the news to my dad without him losing his mind, because he's dealt with a girl like me in his high school days, who can use her dreams to tell the future and it's freaked him out ever since lol. SoKanani 2:00:32if I so I'm trying to think of what I would say to 16 year old me because I think you're you're your start and my start were similar I had, I actively sought religion. And I had some sort of kind of background. So I we don't share that but kind of that uncertainty, and trepidation, and, and dreams and things like that. That's all stuff that was very similar to me. My advice to you, which is still my advice to me that I don't follow. So no harm, no foul, if you don't listen, but journal, my advice to you would be to write down your dreams. Because right now, they may not make sense or there may not seem to be a pattern. But if you write them down for, say, a year, and then you look back the next, you know, a year in a day, and you kind of go through and you look, you may find that certain dreams that you kind of thought were very innocuous or just you know, just kind of a boring old dream, actually was telling you something, or predicting something that was going to happen in your life, you might find a pattern to the characters that appear in your dreams, or the topics that appear in your dreams. So my first advice because you're talking about what you should read, my first advice to you would be honestly for you to be writing down what you're dreaming and what you're experiencing, or if like you have a little premonition to write it down. Yeah, one of the things I think that we all do together because we all practice is, I don't necessarily write it down. But I'm always I always tell someone, right, because I don't want to, you know, later say, Oh, I knew that was gonna happen. Well, if you didn't tell anyone, then they're all just gonna think you're crazy making it up. But you know, write down those little fun premonitions, things like that. And then just kind of explore, just see what you like. But that would be my first advice is keep a journal.Hilary 2:02:32Yeah, I totally second that. Because I think that I think that writing things down, I mean, and this is true of other, like magical experiences or weird happenings that you've experienced. Because sometimes you'll see patterns, right? You'll see, like, you see something and then something happens, and you start to be able to relate to that imagery with a thing that's going to happen, right. So you're like, oh, when I see this in my dream, it usually means this. So you kind of get to start to break it apart. The one thing that I would really recommend is, so have a journal by your bed, write your dreams down before you get out of bed. Yes, as soon as as soon as we get up and start to, to do stuff, we're gonna forget maybe some details that are really important. So I would say have that journal there before you even get out of bed while you're still in that kind of like, groggy state, write down, even if it's just notes, you don't have to write pages and pages, but notes of like, I saw this, this happened, I heard this. And I would pay attention when you know, if you are able to be lucid in your dreams and kind of pay attention when you're in those dreams to what things smell like what things feel like what things look like what the textures are, because all of those also are things that can be impactful beyond just I saw a dog or I saw or whatever it is, you know, like it's good to pay attention to, to try and pay attention to all of your senses in that dream as well.Courtney 2:04:05And also, don't worry if your dreams are just short conversations. Sometimes the most meaningful dreams are that's that's fine. And it's funny because I actually don't usually remember my dreams when I first wake up. It's usually like a couple hours later, something will happen that will bring the dream back to me. So, you know, but I think I just my heart went out to you, especially at the end when How can I break the news to my dad without him losing his mind. Okay. So you're 16 your dad should know where you're going. You should be honest with him about where you are and who you're with. You should be honest with him about where he can reach you. You should be honest with him about your grades at school. You don't have to tell him that you're having dreams that are coming true. If you decide to to go to a pagan gathering at some point, please take an adult with you and your dad should know that you're going so I do not want you to consider going and joining a group without your dad's knowledge and permission and if he's not okay with it, you're going to be 18 in two years. I know that seems like a long time, but it's not. But when it comes to having dreams, your dad does not need to know what you're dreaming about. You don't have to worry about breaking it to him and that's okay. Like, my parents get freaked out about my premonitions. So I don't usually tell them either. They don't need to be freaked out. That's not information they need to have. Hilary 2:05:28Right now you're in a really lucky spot. Because so many conferences, meetups gatherings are virtual right now. And of course, obviously, please be cautious. You don't want to connect with weirdo strangers online and give them any personal details. But there are conferences that you can attend. Or, you know, videos that you can watch that you can attend that you can kind of learn from that don't you know that don't require you going to a conference? Courtney 2:05:58Yeah. And as for books, honestly, Good Juju- Najah Lightfoot's book would be a great place to start. Hilary 2:06:02Ooh it's really good. Yeah, I agree. Courtney 2:06:03That's a great place to start, so good luck. And you know, this is a lifelong process. You're just at the beginning, so there's no need to rush but keep your journal, read Najah's book. Yeah, taking an online class is a great idea. Your dad doesn't need to know about your dreams, but he should know who you are seeing.Hilary 2:06:21Ya!Courtney 2:06:21but, do keep do tell him that. But you don't have to tell him about your dreams. That's fine. So Kanani, why don't you remind everybody who Annwyn isKanani 2:06:32So, I was I was super excited to have Annwyn back Annwyn Avalon is a water witch, water Priestess, and the founder of Triskele Rose Witchcraft, an Avalonian witchcraft tradition. She has devoted her life to the study of art, witchcraft and magic. She is an initiated witch and Priestess, Reiki Master Teacher, award-winning dancer, published author, and has a BFA in sculpture a BA in anthropology, with emphasis on plant and human interactions, and has received an apprentice certificate in herbalism. She writes for the Magical Times Magazine in the UK, and has contributed to other published works, such as the New Aradia, a witch's handbook for resistance. She is also the author of Water Witchcraft: Magic and Lore from the Celtic Tradition and The Way of the Water Priestess: Entering the World of Water Magic. You can visit her at and and . I remember I was super bummed because when we had you on, I remember that we I found out at that time I found out you're kind of your local, you're in the Oregon area. And it was just like, Oh, cool. This is someone I can totally hang out with. And then it's like, oh, no, you can't.Annwyn Avalon 2:07:48Just kidding. Yeah, I know. I know. It's so crazy with COVID right now, butKanani 2:07:56so how have you been? What have you been up to? Annwyn Avalon 2:07:58Oh, I've been really, really good. Actually, this is wonderful timing. Because water priestess released this week so...Kanani 2:08:07Oh! that's awesome.Annwyn Avalon 2:08:09So I've kind of this week, I've been like trying to focus on that, and keep myself focused on on those kinds of things, rather than, you know, world and political events. But yeah, so it's been really great. Just kind of having spent the last year doing my edits and having it sent in, and then the period of wait before the release. And so yeah, it was it came out this week, and it's really exciting. And theKanani 2:08:39What's the book called?Annwyn Avalon 2:08:40it's called The Way of the Water PriestessKanani 2:08:43The way of the..I'm gonna have to check that out. I actually a friend of mine, I messaged you, a friend of mine and I are looking you have actually a class that's coming up to this spring, right?Annwyn Avalon 2:08:53Yes, yes. The nine month water magic course. It begins March 1st.Kanani 2:09:00That's awesome. Yeah, I think, you know, maybe one of the reasons that your interview really kind of stuck with me was kind of even, even pre pandemic, but especially during, during all this stuff when everything was locked down. My parents live in seaside they live by the ocean and so they're kind of the only people that we would see, because they didn't go anywhere. And we didn't go anywhere. And so we were quarantined for a couple weeks, and then we would go visit them. And so we did a lot of a lot more of back and forth of that than we would usually do. So I actually spent a lot of time kind of at the ocean. Mostly if we weren't home. We were at the beach and so a lot of I did a lot of water magic and just kind of spending time meditating by the water and just kind of trying to use that energy to just kind of keep me grounded. And somewhat sane, right?Annwyn Avalon 2:10:03I know through all of this. Yeah, I'm very lucky that I have water all around the rivers, you know, they're here. Every other corners is a part of the river or a creek or something. And so I've been spending a lot of time, actually a little bit south of Portland out in the country with the rivers. But there really is nothing like the Oregon coast. It is amazing. So amazing. And there's, it's Rocky, and so we don't get a lot of shells. But there are so many amazing treasures to be found on the these beaches anyways, hag stones and sand dollars, all sorts of amazing tools to work with, that the ocean can give us. But there is something just so powerful and grounding about the Pacific waters as well. There it's so different than the Atlantic and it's it's cold, but it's got this deep, dark power to it. And not necessarily dark as in like a negative thing. I don't think that I think it's more of like the depths of the ocean, the mysteries. And just kind of that fierce power of what the the water can do, can crash and build and create and destroy? And I really see that in the Pacific oceans where I feel like the Atlantic is this warm, especially in the southern parts. It's so warm and inviting. But yeah, thank goodness that we have this beautiful body of water out there to be able to work with.Kanani 2:11:40Was there any kind of Did you notice? Did your did your magic or your practice change at all? Or did you have kind of different focuses? Did you notice kind of during all of this?Annwyn Avalon 2:11:52Yeah, there there was a lot. In fact, one, one of my focuses was refocusing. And that came right around the Pacific Northwest fires that happened in September.Kanani 2:12:09That sounds that feels like a million years ago.Annwyn Avalon 2:12:12It does. It really does. But the crazy. No, and the crazy thing is is I still haven't recovered from it. Our property was missed by 150 feet. We were evacuated. So most of the big evacuations started on Thursday, Friday that week. But for some reason, one of the fires started just right on the road, that parallels ours and 40 acres were burned. And they I went from watching my friends in Salem be like, Oh, I think I have to pack to being evacuated from my house like three hours later. And so we were in a hotel for a full seven, like six and a half, seven days. And so during that time, there was a big focus for me on water, of course, the just the healing power of water and the protective nature as well. And I mean, luckily, I am a magical person. And so I have magical family. I have magical friends. And this was an interesting period, because I'm usually the one that's like, it's okay, I've got it, you go deal with your mundane life, and I'll do the magic. And this time, it was a calling in every magical favor. Can you help me save my house and my chickens. And we Yeah, I had several people working and I was printing out fire maps and working with those and just trying to do grids of protection and bringing rain, you know, in the whole West Coast needs rain, not just our area. But I also got to connect with my Creek in a much different way than I ever had. Sometimes I feel like I have a deeper connection with the river, up the road rather than the creek that runs through my property. And for some reason I really couldn't figure it out. I thought oh, maybe they're just not happy with me or, or maybe they just don't want to be my friend because that's the thing too, right? Not every spirit wants to work with a witch. But I was like that's all right. I will I'll just keep doing my work keep doing my blessings keep doing my protection magic for the water. And the night that we evacuated. I had this crazy dream. Well first off, I think I stayed up till two in the morning. like watching just news fire maps, the Twitter accounts of the fire department just you know I had neighbors on hills near mine that could see my property texting me like you're still okay. And these, these, these three spirits came in this dream, I was seeing my house, and I was seeing the creek. And these three spirits, they came from the opposite side. So the creek not on my property. But they kind of came through the little tunnel where the water flows. And up, and I saw them just create this bubble of protection around my house. And I, you know, part of me was like, Okay, this is a dream part of me was like, This is spirit contact. But it really wasn't until I got home. And I saw, like, how close the charred trees and wildlife was. And then I talked to actually one of my magical friends who lives up on one of the hills. And she was letting me know that they'd been watching my house and her partner came out to say, like, yeah, like I was watching it, and it was 150 feet to the property line. And it's really interesting, because the rest of the fires were moving in this like Northwestern direction. But for some reason, the fire that started on this parallel road to us, decided to move in, like a South Southern direction towards my property. And there was just these this overwhelming sense of like, panic, but then this like, underlying sense of like, everything's gonna be okay. And so I saw this in this dream. And when I got home, and I got back into regular practice, and I got grounded again and unpacked. And I mean, it took a while because we came back, but the skies weren't clear for two more weeks.Kanani 2:16:47I couldn't breathe the air.Annwyn Avalon 2:16:48No, oh, no, I was I was boiling like so many herbs, every herb that I could get my hands on, I was just boiling them and breathing them in and using the medicinal steam magic. And to just help clear our lungs out. And I had no idea that smoke sickness was a thing. And I was so frustrated, because I was like, okay, like, I have so much work to do. Places are still burning, I have spirits to thank I have people to thank. And I was like really getting disappointed in myself. And then I read an article that was like, if you're experiencing all of these, like illnesses, or different effects like nausea, lethargy, not being able to think then it's probably smoke sickness. So once that was actually finally recovered from, I could actually get back into a good practice, and I got to connect with them again, and like really understand that no, this wasn't just a dream that these spirits are, they're very quiet their their Genus loci, their local spirits, they see you, we see you, that's, you know, we see you, and we see what you're doing, and you're cool. But you're we're gonna stay over here, and you're gonna stay over here. And we'll help you out if you need to, you know, in this dire situation, because they're like, you're doing good work. So you know, we're trying to make sure that your home stays intact, so you can continue doing this. And that was a huge wake up call for me at that moment. And I thought, you know, it's been a long time since I've organized one of the worldwide water blessings. And I had kind of had back in July, this idea that I would go ahead and start them up again, I thought that the Winter Solstice would be perfect, it gives me lots of time to hype them up, and to get coordination and to get people on board. And we would go out on the Winter Solstice, and we would all place a grid on our own local bodies of water to pull in healing and protection for the land. And I just I couldn't wait anymore after that whole thing. And I was like, we're gonna do it now. And so I did the first one in late September. And it was it was just, it was really nice to do it again. And then we did another one in, we did another one on the actual winter solstice. And then we'll be doing another one on the Equinox. So, four times a year, these, they started out as this worldwide water witch blessing where we were going to get as many water witch's as were working in their local environment, whether that is Australia or New York or Arizona or England doesn't matter. We're all going to meet on the same time and we're going to go out to the physical water. And we're going to do magical work that benefits the water and that benefits the local, the landscape. And we did these for a long time. And then Oh, just life happened and you know, I forgot to put one up and then the next thing you know you forget to put another and six months goes by. So it was a really big refocus on these collective water blessings, and so I changed the name. And now it's just a Worldwide Water Blessing because I work with both water witch's and water Priestesses. Some people don't identify as a witch. And so I took that word out and trying to make it very, very inclusive to all people that walk in water path. And that's also something I think that this year I, I really had a big breakthrough with is it really isn't about a pagan water path, or a witchcraft water path. It's really about this path of water where we are like in service to the water within our own framework. And as soon as like I started really kind of having these, these understandings that that this whole water path was greater than than what my path personally was. I opened that up. And really what happened is I started getting people from all different types of paths, umm Christian witch's, or just Christian mystics, and those that were like walk may be more of an atheist type of magical path shamans, I mean, just Druids just all of these different people. And the thing that brings us together, the one common thing is the water. And there's, there's just no room for us to have this big separation of factions within this water magic community. It's really about kind of coming together and building it so that in maybe 100 years, there are different, you know, factions. But there was a really big return for me on what can we do as a collective that can change and benefit nature, the natural environment, the water, the plants, the land, local spirits, in a way that helps to preserve and, and not just preserve, but bring attention to the pollution, so that we can have clean water, I mean, water should be a human right. And there's a lot of us working magic so that we can have people that don't have access can get access to clean water. And so it's just this really big kind of overwhelm overwhelming idea that there's so much work to do. And there's so many of us, that if we can come together and weave these different paths of water together, we can really put together this amazing network and tapestry across the planet that basically a water grid across the planet with different magical folk in different locations. And there's power in that collective magic is just, Oh, it's so powerful, especially when you're working on a grand scale. So we'll see how it goes. You know, these are, these are grand ideas. But I'll tell you what, they're they're coming together, it's amazing, to just hear how many people are interested and with Water Witchcraft coming out, and then Water Priestess coming out, I really am meeting a lot of amazing people from all paths. And actually, this is a great time to mention that I do run a blog series that's called An Interview with a Water Priestess. And basically what I do is I find different people. And by the way, if you're a water Priest, or if you're masculine, you are not excluded, we will frame it Interview with a Water Priest. And basically, I go around and I look for these people that are connected with water in some way, or sometimes they find me. And we do an interview so that we can get the information up on the internet so that if there is somebody out there looking for someone that does sacred work through a Christian mystic perspective, or through a more shamanic perspective, or through a more mysticism type of perspective, that these educators or leaders or or sacred people have their work available to others and the others can find it. So. Yeah,Kanani 2:24:27I think that's fantastic.Annwyn Avalon 2:24:30Yeah, so got a couple up there, and I'm always looking for more so. But yeah, it's, it's my goal to really solidify water magic as an actual, legitimate path. And I think it's legitimate. I absolutely know it is. But when I say that, you know, I think that we have this huge emphasis on green magic, right? Like you can actually walk up to a group of witch's if you're a witch, you can walk into a group of witch's and if they were like, oh, what's your path? And you said, green witch, there would just be a knowing like, Oh, yeah, got it. Okay, we know exactly what you do. But if you say water witch, they kind of look at you like your cross-eyed, or whatever, you know, like, what are you doing? Like, what? What?Kanani 2:25:17Yeah. What does that mean?Annwyn Avalon 2:25:18What is a water witch, like what? you do dowsing?! and I'm like, well, and that is the term that was used as far back as the 1500's to uhh find water...absolutely! but, you know, the term water witch I actually started using it, because at the time, so I lived by the ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, I lived in Japan. And so I and the Gulf. So there was all of these, these very beachy- sea connections, and I identified as a sea witch of course, if you're by the sea, you work with the sea, you're a sea witch, but what happens if you're landlocked, or you live in the mountains, and you only work with the spring? That doesn't make you a sea witch, so I started really looking at this and like, kind of being like, what, what is this? Well, if there's kitchen witch's, and there's green witch's, and there's this type of witch and that type of witch, and if there can be a sea witch, then there could absolutely be a water witch and so, you know, started using that term, and it's really kind of cool to see so many other people be like, Hey, I think that this is what I am and uhh the community is really building. And that's, I think, the most exciting thing.Kanani 2:26:30I think, I think the other thing, too, is like you said, a lot of people don't actually live by the sea. And so maybe they do find themselves, you know, more drawn to the water aspect of magic, but they didn't necessarily kind of vocalize that, because they just thought, well, you know, I don't really work with the sea, so I'm not really a sea witch even if most of their magic was water focused, because it just kind of broadens the term, which just kind of opens the umbrella to you know, anyone who's practicing a form of magic that just involves water. Yeah, like you said, some people are landlocked, some people don't have, you know, oceans or lakes nearby, or rivers nearby or things like that. Well, there's still other ways you can practice water magic. Annwyn Avalon 2:27:20Exactly. Yes. Kanani 2:27:21Well, tell me about your new book. So what's going on with this new book, Water Priestess?Annwyn Avalon 2:27:25Oh, yes. Okay. So water witchcraft is all about witchcraft. It has spirits, it has witch's, folktales about witch's. It has magical tools. It has things from the sea, it says how to use different waters, all of these kinds of things. And so when I wrote Water Witchcraft, funny story, I was contracted for 5000 words. 50,000 words, excuse me. 50,000 words. And it was my first book, so I had no idea that you know, if you send in 91,000, that they won't be happy. So that's what I did. And it was really funny, because my editor called me and was basically like, hey, how many words are you supposed to send? And I was like, well, 50. And she's like, and how many did you send? And I was like, well, 91, like, I thought you'd be happy with all the extras. And she was like, no you have to cut it down. So I had to go in and I had to really look at what was going to be in Water Witchcraft and what wasn't. And so having taken out a large chunk, I had this materialist 30,000 words of material that I really wanted to get into another volume, but it sat there for a while. And then I just really got struck, and I don't know really how to say it other than that, but it's it's like procrastination lethargy, so many other things to do. Gotta do my laundry, gotta vacuum. Oh, yeah, I wanted to write that book. I should probably should have started six months ago, and then just BOOM! like, one day I just woke up and I was just struck, and I sat down and I started from scratch. And I started writing about before The Water Witchcraft; before the traceable folk magic, what was there? Well, there were women, or sacred people that connected, or were somehow in service to the water. And so I started really looking at Avalon. And so that part didn't make it into Water Witchcraft, so that did make it into the new book, which was perfect because now we're looking at umm sacred feminine service, rather than water witchcraft. And so I started looking at the old temples and I started looking even at that the Oracle of Delphi. Did you know that she would bathe in the springs, the magical sacred spring before Her oracular work, or that there's a group of academics right now that are studying Apollo's temples, and how they're oriented with different risings and settings of the constellation, Dell, Phineas, or the dolphin? So I started putting all these puzzles together, and it started like blowing my mind that this path of water went way far back, really far back, cup bearers and Priestesses in antiquity. Now, sadly, there's a lot less, there's a lot less information than is kept in this folkloric practice, or that we can trace from folk magic in the 1800s. So it was partially doing academic research, partially putting in my current work and kind of what I had been doing. And so I took this idea of sacred service to the water and I studied temples that were dedicated to water Goddesses, or temples that had a sacred spring, or things like Aphrodite's cult and started looking at just this idea of there was there was temples or buildings where sacred people would be in service to the water. And whether that was a water spirit, or an actual physical water, didn't matter. And I wanted to know, well, how how does that look like in a practice, and I just started then comparing what these ancient women were doing, or these ancient people were doing in comparison to my current public Priestess practice, which my Priestess practice and my witchcraft practice, actually, they overlap, but I see them as two separate things. Because in witchcraft, it's very much about hands-on where umm well, water Priestessing it is too, but it's just a different perspective and a different approach umm and there are many people throughout time and even in modern times that have this deep call to work with water in a sacred way. And so I have lots of sacred bathing in there, we talk about how to create altars and shrines. I expanded it deeper into shrines from Water Witchcraft, we talk about how to cleanse the temple, there's like a ritual format in there. So that, hey, what if you want to do a circle in your city, where you bring your participants to a river or lake or even if you're just in your living room, and you're going to do a water ritual? How would you set that format up? What would you even do? And so I started looking at what I had been doing and how I've been practicing publicly. And it was like, look, this, this could be adapted for other people, other people could use this as a framework for their own. And so that's really what this is, is helping to just give a foundation and a framework so that other people can start their own practice. And it's a non denominational or non path specific approach to water Priestessing, or sacred water service, sacred tending of the water. And in the conclusion of Water Priestess, I actually wrote that I have this, this vision, this desire, just as hearts desire that before I pass from this world, that there will be at least 9,000. 9,000 working water Priestesses across the planet, making their rivers sacred, making this their spring sacred, again, the ocean doing things like beach cleanups, and establishing churches or sacred organizations that help the water. You know, we saw with Standing Rock and a lot of the pollution that's been happening over the many years and a lot of the hostile takeover of water because of the the oil companies. And there was so much that I wanted to do and be part of, I wanted to be a water walker. But at the same time, I knew that pagans, witches, magical folk, needed to have our own framework to walk alongside our Indigenous brothers and sisters from around the world to support their efforts, and to really turn our eye to the sacredness of water because we forgot. We forgot that it was sacred. And so this is really kind of what it's about. 9, the number nine plays a really big factor in this book as well, because one of the things that I found while I was researching was the number nine kept coming up over and over. The Oracle of Delphi, Apollo, Apollo's muses-nine muses, the nine maidens, well, in Scotland, the nine avalonian waterfree, or nine avalonian Priestesses, the Priestess from the Isle of Cenna. So there were these groups of nine, the nine Daughters of Wran, The Valkyrie- they fly in groups of nine, you have the nine maidens of Annwfn that kindled the cauldron of rebirth. And so there was all of these groupings, these sacred women often lived in groups of nines, or somehow were recorded to be in these groups of nine. So that played a big factor into this book as well. And I, I pull all of the little details. And there's also a strong section on oracular work, reading things like bones or scrying and so it's scrying with water, stuff like that. So it, it's a guidebook for the water magic Practitioner. And it's my hope that it really inspires others to use it as a foundation, and then from that create their own amazing thing that's focused on water. SoKanani 2:36:27well, like you said, you know, water, I mean, we all require water to survive. So, water is not only in us at all times, but it is it is imperative to our survival. And that is something that unites pretty much all people and all plants and animals. And, you know, so water is a very kind of unifying force for everyone, for all times. So I think, you know, kind of, like you said, you know, you can go down so many rabbit holes, because there has never been a time in our history, where water was not critical to our livelihoods and civilization.Annwyn Avalon 2:37:19Yes.Kanani 2:37:20So I think that's, I think that's cool that you are really kind of trying to tap into that. And, and kind of look at a lot of that history, because like you said, I agree with you 100%, you know, most people have have forgotten how sacred water isAnnwyn Avalon 2:37:39I mean we buy it at the store in plastic bottles, you know, we don't, we don't go to the well every morning, that, that stopped that process of the morning ritual of going to the well to get the water, we don't do that. We just open you push, push up in your tap or grab a bottle at the store. And we forget that there's a source, that there's spirits that dwell within these sources. And we basically have just begun manufacturing water or these plastic bottles for it. And you know, it's amazing too that we can't go without water for three days. You know, after three days, if you haven't had water, that that's it. And we're full you're right, of 70 to 80% water just depending on how hydrated or dehydrated and we've really kind of moved into this place of water as a consumer product. And it's not, because if you think about how much water is in your body, that can't be bought or sold, and it shouldn't be. And so we really have to turn our eye back to the sacredness of it and that means the sacredness of the water in our own bodies as well. And there is... Water Priestess has a section on or there's an underlying, I should say theme of self care and self understanding and really learning who we are and trying to remember these these old practices. And that's actually something that I have on my website. It's it's time to return to the Water Temple.Kanani 2:39:20That's fantastic. Well, I can't thank you enough for joining me for this and I am just hoping that some of this craziness can calm down soon enough that you and I can maybe go take a little beachy trip together or something or go hang out by a lake somewhere andAnnwyn Avalon 2:39:39I would love that! Kanani 2:39:39Or have some water fun. Annwyn Avalon 2:39:41Oh, that would be so wonderful. Yeah, I mean, I hope I really hope it's soon. I thought that it was I thought we were going to be back to normal by September, so I don't have a really good gauge on when this might be but I'm crossing my fingers it's soon. Because I would really like to do that. Kanani 2:39:56Hope for summer, that's what I've got my fingers crossed. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And do you want to go ahead and tell our listeners where they can find you? Annwyn Avalon 2:40:07Yes, ahh the best place to find me on social media is going to be Instagram. And you can find me at @AnnwynAvalon. And my websites are and And you can actually get copies of my book signed copies of my books off of water witchcraft right now. And water witchcraft has the nine month water magic course coming up. And if you happen to be interested in anything that I said about water Priestessing as a path of service, and really kind of stepping into that, that sacred service Priestess mantle, I have water Priestess training, on , there's actually a free intro course, which is just it's meant to be fun. It's meant to get you excited, and to actually get you to go out to the water and do a public ritual, whether that's just solitary public, or with other people. And then if you like that you want to go deeper, I do, I have a paid section that we we dive deeper. And we you actually I make you learn how to do things. And then I make you learn how to create your own version. So I go through like, the first section is like grounding and shielding I give you exercises, and you have to memorize them and do them. And then the last part of the section, you have to make your own water grounding exercise or your own water shielding exercise. And so it's, it's really cool because it helps people to forge their own path in water.Kanani 2:41:49That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And like I said, You're I had so much fun when we had you on last time. I'm super excited to hear that you have a new book coming out. And I am super hopeful that sometime this summer, you and I will be able to hang out and get some water witchy stuff onAnnwyn Avalon 2:42:07I would love that. And thank you so much for having me back. It was really great talking to you again.Kanani 2:42:12Absolutely. I was so excited to have her back. I think we we all have discussed my sea hag status, and my love of water. So it was really fun for me to be able to talk to her.Courtney 2:42:26I had forgotten that she was evacuated during the firesHilary 2:42:29SAMEKanani 2:42:29I felt like such an asshole becauseHilary 2:42:31I didn't realize I didn't even know. But I mean, that's still her story about that was really powerful. And how a good example of how to utilize your magic in a crisis. Right? Yes. Right. And I just thought that that was like, it's it's something that like, I think it's sometimes easy when we're like, it's chaos, and we're freaking out about something and we're worried that we start to we forget how powerful our magic is. And we're like, well, I need to do all these practical things I need to you know, and then we forget that like our magical or...our magical?? uhh our magic can be pretty practical also, you know that it is a thing to rely on, a way to ground, and a way to affect the situation to go in a way that is helpful and useful to us. I love listening to Annwyn talk because her voice is the most soothing voice of all time right? Like I want her I want her to read me bedtime stories. Yeah, like,Courtney 2:43:23I want her to read me the phone book.Kanani 2:43:25One of the things that I love about talking to Annwyn is she is so clearly passionate about what she does. Yeah. And it's intoxicating. You know what I mean? Like you just can't help, like, Fuck yeah, clean water everywhere. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, she's just she's so passionate about it. It just, it's, it's exciting. It's just, yeah, it was it was really fun to talk to her again.Courtney 2:43:49It is true, because Kanani is slightly less dead inside when she talks to Annwyn, not fully less just slightly... Moving into the mushy territory here, and that like, you know, two years of making a podcast with my two best friends, is my 16 year old witch's dream come true, right? I don't even know what we didn't know what a podcast thing was. Um, but if somebody had said it's like a radio show, but it's also a television show,Kanani 2:44:16which is still what, which is still what Courtney tells me, by the way that helped me understand what we're doing. It's like radio, but it's not radioCourtney 2:44:23and people in Australia will listen to you Kanani, you like Australia, don't you?Kanani 2:44:28I do! Hilary 2:44:29Oh my gosh to be able to reconnect on this like deep level with one another and to like, grow an even larger friendship with Kanani, who like I've known but like, y'all were best friends oh, you know, it's like, it's like when one of your closest friends has a best friend. You're like, Oh, yeah, you're so and so's best friend. Right? And so it's really been amazing to get to know more of Kanani as well then I already knew, and hilarious and inspiring. And soCourtney 2:44:53And terrifying. Kanani 2:44:54Exactly, Hilary 2:44:54and definitely terrifying. I mean, as Courtney said, the ability to talk to I mean I just feel so lucky, we are able to talk to some of the most amazing inspiring magical people. And it's like, every single person that has come on has impacted my practice in some way or another, you know?Kanani 2:45:11the thing that I think has meant the most to me, is that for as long as pretty much my daughter has been alive, once you start becoming a parent, you know, that's who you are, that becomes your identity. And at least it did for myself, and I've heard other other people speak to it as well. You know, when you go pick them up from preschool, that's, that's so and so's mom. That's so and so's mom. Like you're no longer you have no nameCourtney 2:45:42I think it's a little odd that you named your kids So-and-So and So-and-So. And Kanani 2:45:45I know, well, you know, yeah, it's good for her it keeps her on her toesCourtney 2:45:50So-and-So 1 and So-and-So 2 are Kanani's kids,Kanani 2:45:52I feel like I have been more myself and grounded more back into what do I like, what do I want to do? What am I interested in doing in a way that I had, I had not been for the eight years prior because I was completely focused and fixated on helping community doing things for community doing things for my family, doing things for my kids. And, and that was very much where my identity lied. And so I feel like for the last two years, I've somehow kind of crawled back this sense of self, that I didn't even necessarily know was, was missing, to the extent that it was and so for me, that's, that's been the most exciting. exciting part is I feel like a person now.Courtney 2:46:39And think of all the movies you've seen because of this podcast. So many you never dreamed of wanting to see likeHilary 2:46:46Like, my godKanani 2:46:46stupid ass movies Hilary 2:46:47like, what I mean, what world would it be like if you hadn't seen The Wicker Man?Kanani 2:46:52You know, so much better? (laughing) So much better! Yeah, so many shitty movies.Courtney 2:47:02Well, anyway, this has been the longest episode in the history of That Witch Life podcast Hilary 2:47:08it's true Courtney 2:47:09but ultimately, it's it's really a you know, a love letter to our listeners who keep coming back and keep supporting us. And it does feel like we've got this this immense, like our little circle, the three of us is turned into a circle of 3000. Now we, we don't know what most of you look like, but we feel you in our hearts. And I know it so is this where we wanted to tell everybody that we're not gonna do the show anymore?Hilary 2:47:33Yeah, this is where we let them know that this is our last episode.Kanani 2:47:36(laughing)We all know that, that's how I will find out someday, right? It'll be like, hey, by the way, did you read the email I sent? NO I didn't read the email you sent! Oh, well, I'd let you you know, this is the last episode we're gonna do...Hilary 2:47:46Oh my god,Courtney 2:47:47it is NOT the last episode!Kanani 2:47:49100%. That's how it'll go down.Courtney 2:47:50It is not the last episode. We're gonna, no actually that's how the world's gonna end is I Kanani's gonna be like no one told me the world was ending. We're like, Well, the probably you didn't get the email? no I didn't get the email. She's, she's gonna be like, on her phone. She's like, yeah, No, I wasn't. I wasn't I didn't read it.Hilary 2:48:05She's gonna be like, What? She you'll be like Kanani, Kanani 2:48:08well, I saw it but it was long, so I deleted it. Courtney 2:48:12Anyway, no, it is not our last episode. We are still making this podcast. And we just really want to give a thank you all so much for listening. Again, you want to support the show? The best way is to subscribe and spread the word or leave us a rating or review us on Apple podcasts. You can also buy us coffee check out our merch in our Etsy store it makes Kanani's day and for bonus content, become a supporter on Patreon. We are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.For show notes, audio transcript, or to ask us a question for a future episode, go to . Until then, here's to another year of moting that shit. Talk to you all next week. Kanani 2:48:51Laters!Hilary 2:48:52Bye.All Three 2:48:54So Mote it Be!Courtney 2:49:01They think that OH! that's a good idea and Kanani, Kanani actually has liked the movies the listeners have have suggested also our listeners it's like,Kanani 2:49:08actually, that's not that is entirely true. I have like, I think every listener recommended movie it is the horseshit that Courtney makes me watch that I want no part of, because I think you're right. I think I have liked all of the listener suggestions. Because they'll even write me and they'll be like, Courtney wants you to watch this. You're not gonna like thisCourtney 2:49:30Or they bring them to me, they're like, why did you make her watch the Monty Python movie? You knew she wasn't gonna like it. How comeKanani 2:49:35That fucking coconut movie ................
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