Topic: Socio-Cultural Basket



Topic: Socio-Cultural Basket

Lecturer: Marsha Guthrie

Room: IGCB06E

Start: 10/Jun/2006 21:50:00

End: 10/Jun/2006 23:45:00

---------- Start of the log ---------

[22:20] marshag [moderator]:... Hello Jimmy.

[22:20] marshag [moderator]:... Hello Estuko

[22:20] EstukoA:... Hi Marsha. I'm here with a screaming child in my midst.

[22:20] JimmyB:... Hello Marsha and Estuko

[22:20] marshag [moderator]:... I was beginning to wonder if anyoe was coming

[22:20] marshag [moderator]:... what's wrong Estuko?

[22:20] EstukoA:... Hi Jimmy.

[22:21] JimmyB:... I was in a great hurry to get there early...

[22:21] EstukoA:... Asherah wants some attention as she's a bit tired. That's all.

[22:21] EstukoA:... Hi Carlos

[22:21] JimmyB:... Marsha, I sent you a kind of summary in the last days...is it right or,....? Sorry for the delay anyway...!

[22:22] marshag [moderator]:... oh, I thought she was ill

[22:22] marshag [moderator]:... Hello Carlos

[22:22] CarlosL:... Hello :-)

[22:22] JimmyB:... Helle Carlos

[22:22] marshag [moderator]:... I started to look at it Jimmy and it seems to be fine

[22:22] marshag [moderator]:... Do you mind placing it in the Cafe Forum please?

[22:22] JimmyB:... Sorry for last sat. I was kicked out....

[22:22] CarlosL:... I've been here since early, but again, did not log in on time!

[22:23] JimmyB:... It's a little bit difficult for me to get the room when the connection is slow....

[22:24] marshag [moderator]:... I understand

[22:24] marshag [moderator]:... Well, I would like to thank you for attending

[22:24] JimmyB:... Like if every body are getting the high way at the same time....

[22:24] CarlosL:... Hi, Jim

[22:24] JimmyB:... Causing a great jam

[22:24] marshag [moderator]:... I see where you took the time to respond via blog that you were attending

[22:25] JimmyB:... Hi Carlos..... You Eco-Map is great.... and I just add something in it....

[22:25] CarlosL:... I'm downloading a movie to watch tonight, so it occupies most of my bandwidth now...

[22:25] CarlosL:... Yes, Jimmy, I'm looking at your response in the forum.

[22:26] JimmyB:... I'll palce it in the cafe Forum later after the session...

[22:26] CarlosL:... I will post an updated version tomorrow. With everyone's feedback.

[22:27] CarlosL:... I'm I in?

[22:27] CarlosL:... Let me reduce the bandwidth assigned to utorrent...

[22:27] JimmyB:... great job man...!

[22:27] marshag [moderator]:... ok, great!

[22:28] CarlosL:... I want to share some Geographical ICT profiles I have put together too...

[22:28] marshag [moderator]:... That's great Carlos. This is all god information. As an aside, are there any football fans in the house?

[22:29] JimmyB:... Sure...Argentina!

[22:29] JimmyB:... :)

[22:29] marshag [moderator]:... Did anyone watch the game with Trinidad today? I'm sure Carlos pobably did!

[22:29] EstukoA:... Did Trinidad play as yet? What was the result?

[22:29] CarlosL:... I did :)

[22:29] marshag [moderator]:... I watched Argentina's game too Jimmy

[22:30] CarlosL:... The country is crazy here.

[22:30] marshag [moderator]:... They drew with Sweden

[22:30] marshag [moderator]:... Yeah!!

[22:30] EstukoA:... Wow!!!

[22:30] CarlosL:... They are celebrating their tie

[22:30] CarlosL:... It's like the won the Cup already

[22:30] marshag [moderator]:... I'm sure Port of Spain is like madness

[22:30] marshag [moderator]:... I'm happy for them

[22:30] marshag [moderator]:... playing with ten men

[22:31] CarlosL:... cars making noise, people out in the street

[22:31] EstukoA:... Congrats to them.

[22:31] CarlosL:... it was a tough game for them

[22:31] marshag [moderator]:... This is a great time for me....

[22:31] CarlosL:... the gatekeeper made some 8 saves I think

[22:31] marshag [moderator]:... NBA, World Cup football, Cricket, the French Open.... I'm in heaven

[22:31] JimmyB:... Yeah.... The two great there in Haiti are Brazil and Argentina after the National Team

[22:31] marshag [moderator]:... yeah, Hislop made a lot of saves

[22:32] CarlosL:... the sweedish were tough and on top of them all the time. Almost the entire game took place in TT's penalty zone!

[22:32] marshag [moderator]:... I think most Caribbean people love Brazil

[22:32] EstukoA:... So Lara is not the only Trinin hero eh!

[22:32] marshag [moderator]:... that's true. That's why I think they did well to earn a draw

[22:32] JimmyB:... Football count a lot in Haiti and there surely more Brazilian supporters....

[22:33] CarlosL:... I love Brazil :) I had 2 girlfriends from Brazil --- at different times of course!

[22:33] marshag [moderator]:... not at all....I'm sure Lara wished he could be there

[22:33] marshag [moderator]:... eh hem... Carlos do tell us more?

[22:33] marshag [moderator]:... Not as quiet as we'd think...hmmm

[22:33] CarlosL:... we need to wait until 10pm so I can disclose such details ;-)

[22:33] EstukoA:... Well, if he takes the Windies all the way, he will be "there"!

[22:33] CarlosL:... There are 350 Trinis stuck in Germany without tickets to the games...

[22:34] marshag [moderator]:... Anyway, before you spill any more, seeing as how this will be placed as a transcript in the Class let's move on

[22:34] marshag [moderator]:... really? no tickets?

[22:34] marshag [moderator]:... They didn't book in advance?

[22:34] CarlosL:... They bought a full package and once they got there, the agency told them that they did not confirm in time, and is asking them for EU300 or EU400...

[22:35] marshag [moderator]:... oh no!!

[22:35] CarlosL:... This ppl paid some US$8000 for the whole deal I here (about 50,000 TT) and thought they were covered...

[22:36] CarlosL:... anyways...

[22:36] CarlosL:... we gonna be talking bout content today?

[22:37] marshag [moderator]:... yes, on to content policy and content control

[22:37] CarlosL:... that's easy

[22:37] marshag [moderator]:... Some rather interesting discussion took place this week. Pity we didn't have many members of the group participating

[22:37] CarlosL:... yes on the first one, no on the second one :-)

[22:37] marshag [moderator]:... we did however have a good number of annotations made

[22:37] CarlosL:... discussion where?

[22:37] CarlosL:... am I missing stuff again?

[22:39] CarlosL:... ...

[22:39] marshag [moderator]:... in the class Forum Carlos

[22:40] marshag [moderator]:... A couple of interesting threads were begun

[22:40] CarlosL:... ok, I was there :-) no worries then

[22:41] marshag [moderator]:... yes, as I recall you responded to one of my threads

[22:41] marshag [moderator]:... so, yes to conent policy and no to content control?

[22:41] marshag [moderator]:... Is it as easy as that?

[22:41] CarlosL:... yes, I'm trying hard to be a good student.

[22:42] CarlosL:... The answer is easy, the implementation definitely is not.

[22:42] ValerieG:... Hi All, sorry to be late

[22:42] marshag [moderator]:... Hi Valerie

[22:42] marshag [moderator]:... welcome

[22:42] EstukoA:... The challege of balancing content control and freedon of expession seems to be one that will be with us indefinitely.

[22:42] ValerieG:... Thanks

[22:43] CarlosL:... Hi, Val. We had some special World Cup souvenirs earlier, but ran out of them.

[22:43] marshag [moderator]:... when we say content policy what do we mean?

[22:43] ValerieG:... just my luck!!

[22:43] JimmyB:... Hi Val...

[22:43] EstukoA:... Welcome Valerie.

[22:43] ValerieG:... anyway the draw is souvenir enough for me

[22:43] ValerieG:... !!

[22:43] marshag [moderator]:... I agree Estuko. This argument will not end any time soon

[22:43] CarlosL:... After the others express their ideas I will spill my guts and open my heart here on the issue.

[22:43] marshag [moderator]:... :-)

[22:44] CarlosL:... I deal with both issues daily on a micro-level

[22:44] JimmyB:... Balancing Content Control vs Freedom of Exp seems to be a good subject to me

[22:44] ValerieG:... I haven't seen any content policy by Ja govt

[22:45] ValerieG:... But companies such as Gleaner online (our main newspaper) have onethin

[22:45] JimmyB:... as far as I know that freedom of Exp. does not allow one people to act deliberately....

[22:45] CarlosL:... I don't agree with Content Control

[22:46] CarlosL:... on a general level.

[22:46] JimmyB:... I do agree with it....

[22:46] ValerieG:... And it basically reflects the same sentiments as for any kind of publicly published materail;

[22:46] CarlosL:... or a macro level.

[22:46] JimmyB:... on certain level....

[22:47] CarlosL:... The Internet or content is not shoved down your throat, you choose the content you want to have access to.

[22:47] JimmyB:... Like they are people who stand behind a PC and think that they can destroy the world.....

[22:48] CarlosL:... As long as our policy enables spaces for content that appeals to all members of society, people can choose where to participate.

[22:48] EstukoA:... As with pornography, I think that content control should be the responsibility of parents and as long as you are an adult you should have the right to chose what information youwant to access on the Internet.

[22:48] JimmyB:... Not all the people are aware about what is good for them....

[22:48] marshag [moderator]:... that is true Jimmy

[22:48] marshag [moderator]:... What Carlos says is also true

[22:48] CarlosL:... Hey, hey, hey...

[22:48] JimmyB:... And some people are trying to take control of these blind people...

[22:48] CarlosL:... You scare me there with that.

[22:48] ValerieG:... Well jimmy who decides what is good for adults?

[22:49] CarlosL:... It is a fundamental assumption of our way of life that everyone knows what's good for them.

[22:49] JimmyB:... Not only adults...but your kids,,,!

[22:49] CarlosL:... Even if it's "wrong" from someone else's point of view.

[22:50] ValerieG:... I understand that we have to be responsible for what our kids are exposed to

[22:50] JimmyB:... And not all people with a 50 years old are adults....

[22:50] EstukoA:... The Church and State have more or less set certain morales and those of us who were socilaised enough know good from bad/acceptable from not acceptable.

[22:50] ValerieG:... who decides when a 50 year old is not an adult?

[22:50] marshag [moderator]:... But Jimmy is it really right to tell a grown person that they don't know what's good for them

[22:50] CarlosL:... The discussion can go much better if we separate the issue of access to content by minors from access to content by adults.

[22:50] ValerieG:... Unless we are taliking about a mentally imparied person

[22:50] marshag [moderator]:... when the same people with these rules may even be younger than they are?

[22:50] marshag [moderator]:... I agree Carlos

[22:51] ValerieG:... I agree also

[22:51] marshag [moderator]:... Let's separate the two

[22:51] JimmyB:... Sure.... Like in the field of ICT which is completely new for some...

[22:51] JimmyB:... I do it every day as far as I am an ICT trainer....

[22:51] CarlosL:... There are no efficient technological content control mechanism for keeping minors from accessing inappropriate content.

[22:52] CarlosL:... But in practice, there are major control control systems in place to limit adults' ability to access certain controls in many countries, as the text shown.

[22:52] JimmyB:... and have to re-direct older people than me about what can promote they personal development and so forth

[22:52] JimmyB:... not Destroy them and make them passing time for doing nothing.....

[22:53] CarlosL:... Development is about giving people options and access to opportunities. Not about choosing a path for them and pushing them down that path.

[22:53] EstukoA:... Unfortunately, unless you are forced to "sign on" to the Internet and that signature reveals your true identity there are no guarantees about the age of a web user.

[22:54] QuincyY:... hello group so to be late

[22:54] CarlosL:... Everyone has different aptitudes, interests and skills and will be "happier" and more "productive" or "efficient" in a path different from that of others.

[22:54] marshag [moderator]:... Hi Quincy. Feel free to jump right in

[22:54] JimmyB:... Defintily, most of the people are usually attracted by something insignifiant for them over the net....

[22:54] CarlosL:... explain that Jimmy...

[22:55] CarlosL:... what is that insignificant thing?

[22:55] ValerieG:... I agree with Carlos to an extent but if I am operating a telecenter nobody is going to wast banwidth viewing porn

[22:55] ValerieG:... when there are otehrs waiting to do more productive stuff

[22:55] ValerieG:... they can go elsewhere for that

[22:55] CarlosL:... Rght Val. But that is a private environment where people choose to participate.

[22:56] CarlosL:... And that is my point of view.

[22:56] CarlosL:... As long as people can choose to go to another telecenter to watch porn, we are not limiting their freedom by restricting access to porn from our telecenter.

[22:56] JimmyB:... I have great experience in working with young people in the field and see that,,,that are more likely attracted by website with porns.... making research on the way to hack....and so forth....

[22:57] JimmyB:... Like also accessing forum with maliciuos contents....

[22:57] JimmyB:... racism, violence...ect...

[22:57] marshag [moderator]:... I was just going to let Val know that it is not necessarily true that a person won't waste bandwidth viewing porn

[22:58] marshag [moderator]:... as long as there is no bar on the computer the person will use it however they want which may include activities others might not deem "acceptable"

[22:59] CarlosL:... I have a zero tolerance policy in my virtual community for obscenities, insults, discrimination and promotion of hat. So you see, I believe in content control on a private level. When people complain, I tell them that the Internet is big and free and that they can choose to express themselves and participate in such a way in an environment more suited to ther personal preferences.

[22:59] JimmyB:... A great majority of youngster I know who use 1 hour surfing waste 90% in it in porns websites...

[22:59] CarlosL:... And that is natural, Jim.

[22:59] CarlosL:... We should not be alarmed by it.

[22:59] ValerieG:... Well we have warnings up and if we see evidence that this is what they are doing they are warned a second time; third time they are banned

[22:59] marshag [moderator]:... and on a personal level Carlos (22:59) this is fine

[23:00] CarlosL:... They will deal with sex, they will face sex on their daily lives, so we might as well deal with it in the classroom.

[23:00] CarlosL:... Who are we kidding? sex is in the library -- the porn magazines are available to everyone there ---

[23:00] CarlosL:... sex is in the mall when grown ups approach the young girls

[23:00] marshag [moderator]:... as long as they are not breaking the rules of the environment they are in then it's okay?

[23:01] marshag [moderator]:... is that what we are saying?

[23:01] JimmyB:... But with Control....

[23:01] CarlosL:... sex is in the school grounds when guys from the higher grades prey on the younger girls

[23:01] CarlosL:... control?

[23:01] marshag [moderator]:... In other words, content policy at the micro level and not the macro level

[23:01] JimmyB:... Are you going to sell Porn books to a 16 young girl or boy...?

[23:01] CarlosL:... what we are doing is removing sex from the only place where it can be under control

[23:05] marshag [moderator]:... that's why certain policies are in place on porn website, for example

[23:17] JimmyB:... Wow.....what's wrong...?

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... I have no idea

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... the system just went freaky on me

[23:18] JimmyB:... I was kicked out ....

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... I thought I was the only one

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... I got this message from Diplo

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... It may be their servers

[23:18] JimmyB:... I thought it was my laptop given me trouble....

[23:18] marshag [moderator]:... Let's wait and see if the others return

[23:19] marshag [moderator]:... I hope they do

[23:19] JimmyB:... I began to get upset...

[23:19] marshag [moderator]:... it was such an interesting discussion

[23:19] marshag [moderator]:... Aah!! Someone else has recovered

[23:19] EstukoA:... Took some doing, but I'm back.

[23:20] JimmyB:... hahahah...! That's a little bit funny....

[23:20] ValerieG:... Sorry I got kicked

[23:20] JimmyB:... We all got kicked out...!

[23:20] marshag [moderator]:... we all did Val

[23:20] JimmyB:... We do not pay the rent maybe....!

[23:20] marshag [moderator]:... just waiting to see who else returns

[23:20] ValerieG:... Ok

[23:21] ValerieG:... just as long as I was not singled out!! :)

[23:21] marshag [moderator]:... good one Jimmy :-)

[23:21] ValerieG:... we are recovering slowly

[23:22] JimmyB:... Well... To clarify for Carlos.... Content control should have level....

[23:22] marshag [moderator]:... ok, great!! We are all back in one piece I hope

[23:22] CarlosL:... Sorry, got disconnected and couldn't get back in.

[23:22] EstukoA:... Maybe the topic was too hot.

[23:22] ValerieG:... someonme trying to control our content

[23:22] CarlosL:... we had content control on us!

[23:23] JimmyB:... Okay... Sex is every where....and is not a taboo....

[23:24] JimmyB:... But we cannot promote Sado among young people or whatever the people.... Sex with bleeding, cuting ....or anything like that is....

[23:24] CarlosL:... Let's move beyond the sex and minors issue...

[23:24] CarlosL:... For it's a specific issue with specific conditions.

[23:24] JimmyB:... It's part of the content control....

[23:25] JimmyB:... But we agree that they should be control...?

[23:25] CarlosL:... And let's focus on society as a whole and content control.

[23:25] JimmyB:... Content Control...?

[23:25] EstukoA:... The extent a country can go on content control is dependent on the fundamental rights and freedoms enshrined in a country's constitution.

[23:26] marshag [moderator]:... have we moved on from content policy?

[23:26] CarlosL:... (I'm just saying Jimmy, that kids and sex is different from governments limiting people's right to express and access information)

[23:26] CarlosL:... And although I sound all liberal and stuff... I'm highly criticized for the tight control I have on my virtual communities...

[23:26] JimmyB:... Let's move head....!

[23:26] QuincyY:... Should natational governments have the power to limit what citzens have access to?

[23:27] CarlosL:... As I said before we got disconnected...

[23:27] marshag [moderator]:... Estuko, arguably constitutions can be changed

[23:27] CarlosL:... I have a zero tolerance policy in my virtual communities for obscenities, insults, discrimination and promotion of hat. So you see, I believe in content control on a private level. When people complain, I tell them that the Internet is big and free and that they can choose to express themselves and participate in such a way in an environment more suited to ther personal preferences.

[23:27] JimmyB:... They should have the power to limit what people are putting online....

[23:28] CarlosL:... I think governments have no business in messing with what people have access to or publish.

[23:28] JimmyB:... for other to access...!

[23:28] QuincyY:... Although I must say there is always some type of content control - censorship - Governments routine determine what movies are shown or not shown in a country

[23:28] QuincyY:... is content control really another name for censorship

[23:28] CarlosL:... 1. It is not truly feasible.

[23:28] CarlosL:... 2. There is no argument that can convince me of the convenience of it happening.

[23:29] CarlosL:... 3. It's a different world altogether and I will have access to and publish whatever I want.

[23:29] ValerieG:... Content control an a broad level can be considered censorship

[23:30] JimmyB:... It's really important as far as governement should not accept content control with racist purpose, hate speech or something like that..

[23:30] CarlosL:... The moment you accept the intervention, the rest are details...

[23:31] EstukoA:... Agreed, Marsha. Then perhaps this issue should be put to the people in the form of a referendum or some such manner, if we intend to find a resolution to the debate and then amend the constitution.

[23:32] ValerieG:... I agree with Carlos that it is not feasible for govts to control content, but what is not acceptable in other media should not be acceptable on the Internet

[23:32] CarlosL:... either that or you end up with ridiculous measures like women showing their breasts, but not the nipples :-O

[23:32] QuincyY:... I think that governemnt or whoever can control teh content that is placed on their own website as it belongs to them. But the government and whoever cannot limit what others place on their own website , what content they choose to put there

[23:32] CarlosL:... I say it's the other way around, Val.

[23:32] CarlosL:... The Internet will change what is acceptable in other media.

[23:33] CarlosL:... I went to Europe for the first time when I was 19 and God, how I loved those huge advertisement billboards in Italy and France with topless women.

[23:33] CarlosL:... That would never happen in my country and would be considere obscene...

[23:34] CarlosL:... In Italy they were advertising Milk with a seminaked model...

[23:34] CarlosL:... (that was back in 1990 for the Soccer World Cup then)

[23:34] EstukoA:... Governments are not the only actors in content control. Parents, private companies universities, software packages are all involved.

[23:35] CarlosL:... Private control to private activities is acceptable for me.

[23:35] ValerieG:... I would imagine it is the same as for cable - because of what we are exposed to on cable our outlook on many things have changed

[23:35] CarlosL:... yep

[23:35] ValerieG:... this is why many countries complain about cultural invasion

[23:35] CarlosL:... not that we all agree with that

[23:35] marshag [moderator]:... You might start a dangerous precedent (23:31) Estuko

[23:35] CarlosL:... but Cinemax delivers porn every day at midnight on my cable box.

[23:35] ValerieG:... they dont want the image of a naked woman to be acceptable

[23:36] CarlosL:... Let me give you a recent stupid example of government regulation by a liberal government...

[23:36] ValerieG:... and for countries with stong religious morals for example, they should decide

[23:36] QuincyY:... CarlosL is that not a service that you paid for? Cannot you chose not to receive that service if you wanted to?

[23:37] marshag [moderator]:... so is it the governments or the other parties involved that are influencing content control/

[23:37] ValerieG:... yes you can block the channel

[23:37] QuincyY:... The truth is that you have the choose to choose to have it or not

[23:37] QuincyY:... the cable company did not choose for you

[23:37] CarlosL:... Quin, it's part of the regular package offered to subscribers

[23:37] CarlosL:... So actually, at least now and here, it is chosen for me.

[23:37] ValerieG:... but Carlos doesnot wnat to block :-)

[23:37] CarlosL:... back in my country you can choose not to have it.

[23:38] QuincyY:... :)

[23:38] CarlosL:... hey, hey, I'm not complaining ;-)

[23:38] CarlosL:... Now, back to my example...

[23:38] CarlosL:... You girls are familiar with Colombian singer "Juanes" and his hit recent hit "La Camisa Negra"?

[23:39] CarlosL:... Juanes sings that he's wearing a black shirt because his lover is gone and underneath the black shirt is the deceased...

[23:39] marshag [moderator]:... nope

[23:39] CarlosL:... and at one point in the song, when he mentions the deceased, he says in lascive voice... "to bury it in you when you want"...

[23:40] CarlosL:... and voila, the song was banned by the government from the radio stations of my country!!!!

[23:40] CarlosL:... (Dominican Republic)

[23:40] CarlosL:... can you imagine that?

[23:40] ValerieG:... we ban many songs

[23:40] ValerieG:... some are too vulgar and graphic

[23:40] marshag [moderator]:... i guess they are saying it has a double meaning that they do not like

[23:41] CarlosL:... and????

[23:41] ValerieG:... others only suggestive -and of course we have to protect the minors

[23:41] marshag [moderator]:... but in this case if it is a popular radio station or one of few Carlos or owned partially or wholly by the govt

[23:41] CarlosL:... I like it and I don't mind.

[23:41] ValerieG:... but if people want the song they can buy the record

[23:42] CarlosL:... the govt banned it from the air, a radio station is fined if caught playing it

[23:42] ValerieG:... that is freedom of choice

[23:42] marshag [moderator]:... then they have the right to control the content people listen to unfortunately

[23:42] marshag [moderator]:... they will say it is being done for the good of the populace

[23:42] CarlosL:... and radio ends up being not democratic

[23:42] ValerieG:... Look at Howard Stern

[23:43] marshag [moderator]:... this is different from the Internet, arguably where you can be more selective of what you access

[23:43] CarlosL:... let's say I agree with the argument, for the sake of the examples presented by Jimmy...

[23:43] CarlosL:... But do you see how things can easily be distorted and manipulated?

[23:43] marshag [moderator]:... well if government owns it/regulates it it makes things worse

[23:44] ValerieG:... Well government is the custodian of the spectrum

[23:44] ValerieG:... so they will determine the rules for licnecees

[23:44] ValerieG:... licencees

[23:44] marshag [moderator]:... we know what you mean Val :-)

[23:45] EstukoA:... Marsha,[23 but that is what the Internet has effectively done, it has opened a can of worms on the issue of freedom of expression and the rights of people as far as content is concerned.

[23:46] QuincyY:... So are you saying Estuko that the internet is good thing or a bad thing as it relates to freedom of expression and the rights of people

[23:46] marshag [moderator]:... so should they be allowed to take this kind of control to the Internet?

[23:46] CarlosL:... No.

[23:46] marshag [moderator]:... I know Estuko. but where does it stop?

[23:46] CarlosL:... (see, Marsh, I told you it was easy... yes to the 1st q, no to the 2nd) ;-)

[23:47] marshag [moderator]:... I hear you Carlos. Let me ask this question. Do you think self-regulation could work?

[23:48] marshag [moderator]:... When elected do governments have the right to speak on your behalf when it comes to your private endeavours? Should they control you morally?

[23:48] CarlosL:... self regulation, private regulation, family regulation and community regulation

[23:48] marshag [moderator]:... this question goes beyond the Internet now.

[23:48] CarlosL:... and institutional regulation.

[23:48] CarlosL:... a company decides what can be seen/accessed within its network

[23:48] CarlosL:... a school decides what students have access to/publish

[23:49] marshag [moderator]:... True

[23:49] CarlosL:... a community decides what it accesses and accepts

[23:49] ValerieG:... a government decides what it want to have in its counrtry

[23:49] CarlosL:... a family decides what minors see and do and educate them for that

[23:49] ValerieG:... ?

[23:49] marshag [moderator]:... Let me put this phrase from Lessing in - "A regulation need not be absolutely effective to be sufficiently effective."

[23:49] CarlosL:... arrrrrgh, you spoiled my utopia Val!!!

[23:49] ValerieG:... Sorry!!

[23:50] marshag [moderator]:... Is this what is gradually happening?

[23:50] marshag [moderator]:... Regulate a little and it becomes a lot?

[23:50] CarlosL:... For us happy people on this side of the world I think it is

[23:51] CarlosL:... But for ppl in those dark countries ruled by evil men, it's hell...

[23:51] marshag [moderator]:... any comments from you? Estuko, Val, Quincy?

[23:51] QuincyY:... I supppose that various socities have different values on what is accesptable and not acceptable and the internet places these communities together. So a public space of the internet who decides what is accespatble and not acceptable given that many communities share that space

[23:52] QuincyY:... as stated the vies of one community or one state cannot dominate the internet

[23:52] QuincyY:... hence playing devil advocate - a government should have the right to filter content that is not accespatble to its citizens?

[23:53] marshag [moderator]:... true, but if all decide they are gradually going to control content who is to say that there will be much "acceptable" content left?

[23:53] QuincyY:... to determine content that is acceptable for its community just like various families will determine what is best for their children

[23:54] JimmyB:... Sure....!

[23:54] JimmyB:... Quincy....

[23:54] CarlosL:... I think not Q.

[23:54] CarlosL:... government has no business messing with my children

[23:55] CarlosL:... If a child has no parents and is placed under the care of the State, fine.

[23:56] JimmyB:... We shouldn't let a bad orange corrupt the whole in a basket...

[23:56] CarlosL:... But we need to respect people's right to make their own choices.

[23:56] JimmyB:... They child is not usually with his parents....

[23:56] EstukoA:... Quincy, in my view the Internet is simply another space where information is accessible which people have a right to once they are eligible or permitted. Just as minors, for instance, are not permitted to enter a store and buy cigarettes and liquor and you and I are prohibited from chosing what we want to carry onboard a plane, there are rules and codes of conduct (set by some body) that need to be respected and upheld in the interest of acheiving a cohesive (Internet) society. In any collective gathering, someone's rights have to be ceded in the interest of the whole.

[23:56] JimmyB:... Parents cannot have the whole control a a child....

[23:57] QuincyY:... Who determines if there are eligible or permitted. The internet has no respected authority to determine content for the majority

[23:57] CarlosL:... are you suggesting that others have rights over your children?

[23:58] JimmyB:... No way.... But the children interact with the whole community....!

[23:58] CarlosL:... recruit them, send them to war, deny their right to travel and leave the country? (which is by the way status quo in most countries)

[23:58] JimmyB:... The environment....!

[23:58] CarlosL:... there is nothing in the environment that does not exists outside the internet...

[23:59] CarlosL:... what do think happen at prom nights parties?

[23:59] EstukoA:... 23:57 "We the people"...of the international community...is my simple answer.

[23:59] QuincyY:... parents have primary responsiblity over there children . But do parents give up some authorty when children go to school?

[23:59] CarlosL:... what do think kids do in the dark while "watching" movies?

[23:59] QuincyY:... But the International community is not a cohensive group

[00:00] CarlosL:... let's stop making up stories and dreaming up of a non-existing reality

[00:00] CarlosL:... and use that as an excuse to impose control

[00:00] CarlosL:... and mess with others

[00:00] marshag [moderator]:... there will never be full agreement on this issue

[00:00] CarlosL:... 15 years old are having more sex than us, well than you guys, I'm well covered for the time being ;-)

[00:01] QuincyY:... the internet must be about freedom of information a, to share ideas between people - free from censorship

[00:01] JimmyB:... Well.... They should be level in content control ...as I said before....!

[00:01] JimmyB:... Nothing work well deliberatly...!

[00:01] CarlosL:... at the private level, Jimmy, I believe

[00:01] QuincyY:... content control cannot only be done with the assent of the people

[00:01] CarlosL:... but not by an almighty authority that has no connection with people's right to be and choose

[00:02] marshag [moderator]:... so who is for content control on the private level?

[00:02] JimmyB:... Both Private and State and international...depending the matter...!

[00:02] QuincyY:... except for minors or course :)

[00:02] marshag [moderator]:... Who is for the broader level?

[00:02] JimmyB:... Terrorist case is Intern'l matter for i.e

[00:02] QuincyY:... but unless I am actively involved in determining what content shouldbe filtered then I cannot be bounded by that agreement

[00:03] marshag [moderator]:... others may not look at it like that Quincy hence our discussion tonight

[00:03] QuincyY:... yeah - excellent discussion

[00:04] JimmyB:... Sadomasochist case is community matter for i.e.....

[00:04] CarlosL:... I am, marsh (for content control on a private level) -- sorry I was getting more lasagna

[00:04] JimmyB:... Child abuse case is Intern'l matter also....

[00:04] QuincyY:... EstukoA - 23:56 what are the intrest of the whole that would justfy me ceeding my rights

[00:04] EstukoA:... [00:01]So we, Internet users, should focus on what and who we want to be that authority.

[00:05] QuincyY:... shoudl there be an authority?

[00:05] JimmyB:... There are the questions.....?

[00:05] CarlosL:... no authority, pls

[00:06] JimmyB:... Who should be controlling...?

[00:06] EstukoA:... Are we happy with the way it is? If not, how can change be effected?

[00:06] JimmyB:... Hey Carlos..... Are you agianst an e-world without Authority....?

[00:07] CarlosL:... I am, Jimmy

[00:07] CarlosL:... I'll take care of my own control, thank you

[00:07] EstukoA:... Internet Governance is about creating "authority".

[00:07] QuincyY:... I am suggesting that there should be no central authority - ny authority on the Internet will be illegitimate

[00:07] JimmyB:... You should be responsible for the impact in the reality....!

[00:08] QuincyY:... is internet goverencve about creating authority?

[00:08] JimmyB:... And Impacts are physical....

[00:08] CarlosL:... and what would that impact be, Jimmy?

[00:08] JimmyB:... Death...bleeding....

[00:08] JimmyB:... Terrorist acts..... and so forth....!

[00:08] CarlosL:... people die in the real world, not in the Internet.

[00:08] QuincyY:... is internet government about managment of the internet to faciliate its various uses - business, communication ,etc

[00:08] JimmyB:... Child abuse....and so forth....!

[00:08] CarlosL:... Terrorism acts, bleeding take place outside the virtual world.

[00:08] marshag [moderator]:... I believe Quincy that maybe Estuko was thinking of instances such as the threat of terrorism or soemthingof that nature

[00:09] CarlosL:... Again, I suggest that specific cases are dealt separately.

[00:09] JimmyB:... No... They use it as a great tools and you know that...!

[00:09] EstukoA:... Intersting comment, Carlos. So what we do and access on the Internet affects the real world..societies, communities, families.

[00:10] marshag [moderator]:... so Carlos, no one central authority just a grouping of some sorts?

[00:10] CarlosL:... But so many human rights are violated in the name of preventing such terrorism acts.

[00:10] JimmyB:... to begin their act.. to attract people and recruit them.... to

[00:10] CarlosL:... No, marsh, no central authority. Does that mean I failed the course :-(((((((((((

[00:10] JimmyB:... You are also right man.... But we want discuss that there....!

[00:10] QuincyY:... the root cause of terroism must be understood to combact it

[00:10] marshag [moderator]:... Of course not Carlos

[00:11] CarlosL:... I'll graduate from unGovernance it seems :-p

[00:11] QuincyY:... I agree of with CarlosL - no central authority

[00:11] marshag [moderator]:... we are all entitled to our opinion

[00:11] marshag [moderator]:... and if you give me a good argument I can accept it

[00:12] CarlosL:... Jimmy is kicking my butt with the kids issues and the terrorism thing :-O

[00:12] marshag [moderator]:... People. two last questions... WHo will do this fascinating summary?

[00:13] marshag [moderator]:... and is it agreed ...

[00:13] marshag [moderator]:... not to content control and yes to content policy (generally)?

[00:13] JimmyB:... No way Carlos..... It was just great to discuss with you...!

[00:13] CarlosL:... (great discussion today... plenty of issues I need to work on to get my arguments together).

[00:14] JimmyB:... With you all!

[00:14] CarlosL:... (By the way, Jimmy, I agree with you on a practical and private level -- which is your day to day experience with the kids)

[00:14] JimmyB:... :)

[00:14] marshag [moderator]:... ok, you two, you can continue this discussion after I leave (if you wish)

[00:14] marshag [moderator]:... Answer my question please

[00:15] QuincyY:... for me no to content control and yes to content policy (generally)

[00:15] CarlosL:... oh, my God. I was right!!!!! do I get an A+ today? "no on content control, yes on content policy" :D

[00:15] CarlosL:... I'm happy with that statement, Marsha.

[00:15] marshag [moderator]:... Valerie? Estuko?

[00:16] marshag [moderator]:... Jimmy?

[00:16] CarlosL:... And society's existing structures can then decide on the extent and implications of such a policy

[00:16] CarlosL:... We are bound by our laws and Constitution anyway.

[00:17] CarlosL:... And by our social contract, structure and conventions...

[00:17] CarlosL:... So a policy is a natural way of connecting both worlds.

[00:17] JimmyB:... As I am looking at the paper... I can see that some kind of content control is part of a content policy...!

[00:17] CarlosL:... That is correct, Jimmy...

[00:17] EstukoA:... Marsha, I will but towards the end of the week as our Inspection Team is visitng Mon. and Tues.

[00:18] CarlosL:... In the case of child pornography, there can (and should) be a policy of no tolerance.

[00:18] marshag [moderator]:... yes, but I meant in terms of overall content control Jimmy

[00:18] marshag [moderator]:... to clarify

[00:18] CarlosL:... That is not necessarily, content control.

[00:18] CarlosL:... But a policy.

[00:18] marshag [moderator]:... thanks Estuko

[00:18] JimmyB:... Okay Carlos right!

[00:18] marshag [moderator]:... We look forward to it

[00:19] EstukoA:... My pleasure! Carlos, one more word...and "you're it"!!!

[00:19] JimmyB:... A Content Policy should adapt well....!

[00:19] marshag [moderator]:... I am sorry this has to end but I am going to get a bite to eat now (I'm starving)

[00:19] CarlosL:... Yes.

[00:20] marshag [moderator]:... Thank you all for your contribution tonight.

[00:20] QuincyY:... ok

[00:20] CarlosL:... I had lasagna again today, while we chat :-)

[00:20] marshag [moderator]:... It was a very interesting and thought provoking discussion

[00:20] marshag [moderator]:... Ok, Carlos no need to rub it in

[00:20] CarlosL:... Thanks for your moderation, marsh as usual.

[00:21] EstukoA:... Bye for now. I had fried flying fish in a salt bread!

[00:21] CarlosL:... Oh, girl, I rubbed it all over me, I'm a mess, eating and typing, but it's delicious :)

[00:21] marshag [moderator]:... As it is now 8:30 p.m. my time I will bid you all adieu before I faint from hunger ;-)

[00:21] QuincyY:... later

[00:21] EstukoA:... Have a great week.

[00:21] marshag [moderator]:... oh my gosh you are all killing me here. Good night and see you all in the Forum/s and in the annotations

[00:21] CarlosL:... have a nice rest of the weekend, grls and boys...

[00:21] marshag [moderator]:... Keep up the good work all

[00:21] marshag [moderator]:... you too Carlos

[00:22] marshag [moderator]:... Have a good one Valerie, Estuko, Quincy

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