FILE DETAILS



CONVENTION OF THE HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (COHI)

MONDAY 26 OCTOBER 2020

VIRTUAL MEETING

RECORDED LIST OF ATTENDEES

Name Organisation

Pippa Milne Argyll and Bute Council

Robin Currie Argyll and Bute Council

Shona Niclllinnein Bord na Gaidhlig

Mairi T Nicaonghais Bord na Gaidhlig

Xander McDade Cairngorms National Park Authority

Grant Moir Cairngorms National Park Authority

Roddie Mackay Comhairle nan Eilean Siar

Malcolm Burr Comhairle nan Eilean Siar

Calum Iain MacIver Comhairle nan Eilean Siar

Amanda Bryan Crown Estate Scotland

Simon Hodge Crown Estate Scotland

Simon Hodgson Forestry and Land Commission

Charlotte Wright Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Alistair Dodds Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Douglas Cowan Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Morven Cameron Highland and Islands Enterprise

Lorna Gregson-MacLeod Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Douglas Cowan Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Donna Manson Highland Council

Margaret Davidson Highland Council

Kate Lackie Highland Council

Malcolm Macleod Highland Council

Ranald Robertson Hitrans

Graham Leadbitter Moray Council

Roddy Burns Moray Council

Angus Campbell NatureScot

Robbie Kernahan NatureScot

Alex Gallagher North Ayrshire Council

Craig Hatton North Ayrshire Council

Julie McLachlan North Ayrshire Council

James Stockan Orkney Islands Council

John Mundell Orkney Islands Council

John Risby Scottish Forestry

Mike Cantlay Scottish Funding Council

Linda McLeod Scottish Funding Council

Alastair Cooper Shetlands Islands Council

Neil Grant Shetland Islands Council

Frank Mitchell Skills Development Scotland

Damien Yeates Skills Development Scotland

Chris Brodie Skills Development Scotland

Stephen Sheridan Skills Development Scotland

Garry Coutts University of the Highlands and Islands

John Kemp University of the Highlands and Islands

Michael Foxley University of the Highlands and Islands

Linda Stewart University of the Highlands and Islands

John Bachtler University of Strathclyde

Lord Thurso VisitScotland

Scottish Government

Joe Brown Scottish Government

Laura-Anne Brown Scottish Government

Lorraine Lowrie Scottish Government

Douglas Ansdell Scottish Government

Eaun McArdle Scottish Government

Cameron Anson Scottish Government

Robbie McGhee Scottish Government

Kersti Berge Scottish Government

Matthew Farrell Scottish Government

Michelle Colquhoun Scottish Government

Sean Jamieson Scottish Government

START OF MEETING

John Swinney: Good morning everyone. Sorry about the delay. We've had some

technical issues getting connected this morning so welcome to the autumn meeting of

the Convention of the Highlands and Islands. Can I thank everybody for their

participation in the event today. Obviously, our event in the spring

was cancelled due to the emergence of COVID. We weren't quite in lockdown, but it

was heading that way and there are a number of items in the agenda today which have

been carried over from the discussion in the spring. We'll obviously work our way

through those items today.

There's a slight change to the agenda today in that the item on Gaelic and the item on

community wealth building have been switched around to enable

me to take part in a discussion with local authority leaders on COVID-related issues in

the course of today which I'll have duck out in the middle of the day to take forward.

Obviously, look forward to participating in further discussions in relation to the rest of

the day. In terms of some of the housekeeping, there's some detail about

the processes to be taken forward in terms of accessing the meeting. I think generally if

people can keep their cameras switched off unless they are participating at that

particular time, it would be helpful and if people could also remain muted if you are not

speaking just to make sure that we maintain the sound quality that is involved. There

will be a – there's a Convention hashtag, #COHI2020 – all capital letters. If people wish

to tweet in the course of today and we'll work our way through the agenda that we've

got in front of us.

I'd like to, just at the outset, just say a few words about the situation that we find

ourselves in as a country and it obviously has a bearing on the issues that we'll discuss

today. The agenda will be looking at, first of all COVID-19 – the regional impacts and

economic recovery. We'll be looking then at the building of a greener economy. We'll

look at Gaelic which is a carryover from the previous discussion, population and fragile

communities, community wealth building, replacement of European investment funds

post-EU exit and we'll get an update on the Convention and transformational projects

which will look particularly at the issues in relation to digital.

These are obviously all very important issues because they address the current

challenges that we face as a country and particularly within the Highlands and Islands

communities, those challenges around the prevalence of COVID and the economic and

social impact that that is having on all of our communities. We are at a particularly

critical stage in the management of the COVID pandemic and obviously acting to

ensure that we protect the public in that process.

You will all be familiar with the route map which the government constructed in May

which looked at how we reconcile the four harms created by COVID – the direct health

harm, the non-COVID health harm, the economic and social harms and how we

essentially reconcile those issues in the judgements and decision-making that we

undertake. We're obviously some months after the emergence of the route map. We've

gone through a period where we have managed to relax some of the restrictions that

people have been faced with, but we are facing a resurgence of the virus in a number

of parts of the country and to greater degrees of intensity than have been the case in

the past.

What we are aiming to do with the Strategic Framework that was published on Friday

Is to begin to recognise that differential position across the country,

to recognise that in some parts of the community there is a greater prevalence of

COVID than in others and as a consequence, we are taking steps to establish an

approach at different levels which will enable different communities in different local

authority areas to operate to different levels of restriction which formalises the most

recent set of decisions that we have undertaken to address these points.

That obviously has an effect on individual communities to a greater or a lesser extent

and that will form part of the discussions that we have today and will shape much of

our deliberations. In addition to that, we face the continued uncertainty of the Brexit

arrangements and we will know in the course of the next few weeks, the degree to

which the terms and the basis upon which we'll be operating. Obviously, there is still a

lack of clarity about some of these issues and what the environment for either the

trading environment or the environment in relation the support for some of the

economic and social interventions that have been such a hallmark of our

engagement with the European Union as to what shape they will take in the period

going forwards. We'll wrestle with some of those points in the course of today.

Given – that's what I would set out at the outset. We'll obviously

engage on all of these questions. As ever I'm joined in the course of today by a number

of my ministerial colleagues. Fiona Hyslop, the Economy Secretary will lead on the first

session in relation to regional impacts and economic recovery. Fergus Ewing will lead

on the green recovery. I'll deal with the Gaelic issues. Fiona Hyslop will lead on

population and fragile communities and Paul Wheelhouse with deal with community

wealth building and the structural funds issues before finally we look at the

transformational projects issues which Fergus Ewing will take forward. I'll close

discussions focusing on our outcomes.

Given the fact that we're meeting digitally, these things tend to work all right. We had a

similar event with the Convention of the South of Scotland a few weeks ago which

worked quite well, but it does require people to post into the chat function that they

wish to speak or participate and obviously those who are leading the sessions will look

to engage as many colleagues as possible in that respect. In the interests of time, we'll

press on with the first session which is to look at the impacts of COVID on the

Highlands and Islands region and on the questions of economic recovery. I'll invite

Fiona Hyslop to lead on the opening session and I'll come in towards 10 past 11 Fiona,

just to make sure we draw things to a close. Over to you Fiona.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks very much John and good morning everybody. John I'm

not sure if you were aware, but we've all been entertained also by the window cleaner

at your house. It's a reminder.

John Swinney: I thought that might have come.

Fiona Hyslop: Yep, that was obvious. We're reassured it's happened. Thanks

everyone for dialling in and connecting. I know how challenging it has been for some

connections getting in. I'm really pleased to see how many of you are here for today's

Convention and I'm happy to see that it's the first meeting the Convention of the

Highlands and Islands to be held digitally. Obviously, reading the papers for today and

seeing the number of people joining the discussion, I think we have a real opportunity

to discuss the challenges that are being faced across the region, but also some of the

positive plans for the future, not just for economic recovery but also on the path to the

longer term goals that we share and we've discussed previously with you for the

Highlands and Islands and for Scotland as a whole.

As you've heard from John, clearly the impact of COVID continues to be felt across the

country. We need to evaluate our response to the immediate issues that COVID is

causing, the damage it's causing to our health, our schools, our communities and our

economy and we'll set out some of the measures that we've been taking so far to try

and tackle that from an economic point of view. We also need, as you are doing, to

think ahead to our plans for recovery.

How we bring back some kind of prosperity and activity, but to do so in way that doesn't leave individuals or communities or different parts of the country behind. To do it in a way that helps us keep on that path, with the longer goals I think we all share, to have that well-being net-zero economy that does have work and quality jobs at its heart. Fair work is an important part of that, so I think it's fair to say that the COVID crisis has brought into sharper focus than ever before, the regional economic variations that exist in the sectoral make up of Scotland, but also the disparity in outcomes that also follow.

Many of the challenges that the Highlands and Islands faced before COVID remain.

Some have been exacerbated and some new challenges have been introduced and

the paper that we have to discuss considers some of those pressing challenges, but

also considers the opportunities that exist across this very vast and varied part of the

country. On the economic position, the outlook for the rest of 2020 and into 2021

remains highly uncertain. Our Scottish Government analysis in September sets out that

Scotland's GDP could fall almost 10 per cent over the course of 2020 with

unemployment rising nationally to eight per cent.

Although the economy has regained around half of the fall in GDP from the initial

restrictions in March – and actually the August growth figures were reasonable as well

– the necessary reintroduction of additional restrictions in October, means that

recovery is likely to more gradual than hoped in September. Overall, output may not

return to pre-pandemic levels until before the end 2023. Contributing to this is also the

uncertainty and the possible failure to agree a trade deal with the EU or indeed lack of

clarity around the parameters of a final agreement might look like.

Despite these challenges, we've seen many businesses reopen. A tremendous amount

of work by many businesses to try and reopen and to do so flexibly and have done so

with innovation and putting safety at the forefront for their employees and the

customers they serve and in looking at different products that are needed and

necessary in helping with our daily lives as they are now. Many businesses as we

absolutely know, have had to reopen on a reduced level and they are facing financial

difficulties and in some sectors, businesses have had to close again.

When COVID first struck, you'll be aware we rapidly put in place support measures for

businesses. Councils were hugely important in the delivery of that and again, I want to

put on record my sincere thanks to all the local authorities for their really [inaudible]

delivering that. It was the support obviously around the Small Business Grant that you

were involved in, but we also had the Retail, Hospitality and Leisure business grant

scheme and the pivotal Resilience Fund and also the Bed and Breakfast Hardship

Fund.

Going beyond support, we've tried to put in guidance that allows businesses to open

safely and that's really important because as we move into these new levels, what

we've managed to do with that workplace guidance put together with businesses and

trade unions and the public sector has enabled us to identify if we can try and keep

businesses open. Where we can, we will, and you will see that manufacturing and

construction in the levels basis that we've put together is currently being discussed.

The paper that's before you, sets out some of the targeted actions that local authorities of the Highlands and Islands along with partners such as VisitScotland and Skills Development Scotland have delivered aligning to the needs of specific areas. The measures we took in October seem to be having some impact, but if we are committed – as we are – to supressing the virus to the lowest possible level and keeping it there, that needs further action. That's why the First Minister at the end of last week put forward the new longer-term plan and to make sure that we can of course, unfortunately have live with COVID, but in a manged way until an effective vaccine treatment is available and the virus is no longer a major threat.

The new Strategic Framework sets out five levels which I think you'll be familiar with and as John said, there's discussions with local authority leaders later on today about that. To support the new Framework and particularly to support businesses, there's a new grant system which will provide either £2000 or £3000 depending on the business' rateable value, where they are required to close by law and that's payable every four weeks where they are required.

There's also a Hardship Grant of £1400 or £2100 for businesses that remain open but are required by restrictions to modify their operations and that Framework is designed to be responsive, to react to circumstances and that also can be supplemented by primarily the welcome extension of the Job Support Scheme from the UK Government that enables more than previously of employees' wages to be met. Alongside that immediate work for the next period of the Framework, we've also produced a number of documents setting out for the longer term, what we see needs to be done for adjusting sustainable economic recovery.

Again, reiterating the focus on net-zero, wellbeing and fair work. We've published our response to the Advisory Group of Economic Recovery and we're pushing ahead with those actions and we can report on that when we have the opportunity. There's also that subgroup of the Enterprise and Skills Board, again making sure that we can try and align that activity along with the economic recovery. Again, £100 million dedicated for employability issues and skills and I'll be making a statement I hope, shortly to parliament on the progress on the jobs – the Young Persons Guarantee which I hope all of you will embrace and support as well.

Four of the themes that cover strongly in all these plans have been identified in today's paper on economic recovery as particularly important to the economic recovery of the Highlands and Islands. Clearly, tourism extremely important. Indeed, I must reference – and I'm sure Fergus Ewing who is the Cabinet Secretary for Tourism will want to come in on this point – the publication of the Tourism Task Force Recovery Recommendations. Clearly, it's such a major sector for Scotland, but clearly for the Highlands and Islands.

There have been additional to the initial grants, targeted financial measures such as the Hotel Recovery Programme trying to help different businesses in particular, and alongside that we're obviously looking at that recovery aspect for the longer term and some of the proposals that are in the Task Force report, I think really can chart a way forward and we'll be responding as a government as soon as we can. The last seven months has also reinforced the importance of digital connectivity and capability across businesses as you well know. Clearly, that again is a major theme, and we have Paul Wheelhouse on the call as well.

The Scottish Government's R100 programme continues to roll out alongside the 4G info programme to build new masts in mobile not-spots and the 2020 Programme for Government committed £23 million to support digitally excluded people tripling the size of the digital boost programme, for example, and a new network of world-class start-up incubators and – you know, to see how that can particularly impact on the Highlands and Islands.

On the green recovery, the Highlands and Islands are home, as you know, to some of our greatest assets and opportunities, the abundance of natural capital. We must obviously work with all our colleagues from different parts of the Highlands and Islands on this. The successes we've seen in Orkney can be replicated I'm sure elsewhere with vision, ambition, and that coordinated support. We need to make sure that we can increase renewables redeployment. We need to look at the energy infrastructure, importantly the skills-base and how can we look at building that and the National Transition Training Fund will help those that are seeking to move from one sector to another to help that just transition.

Obviously, for islands, the new £2 million Green Recovery Programme launched in September 2020 and that's committed funding as well. We've got funding available for our green recovery from the Energy Transition Fund. A lot in the economic stimulus package, but also as announced in the Programme for Government, a £2 billion Low Carbon fund including £100 million for Green Jobs Fund. There's a lot happening in this area.

The fourth area – and I think this is probably one of the most critical ones – is how we build a resilient and sustainable future. I think it is the resilience – and we can see that from a lot of the themes, whether that's in community wealth building, our places, our communities. How do we make sure that in our procurement, how go we make sure in our relationships that our recovery will be one that is resilient and sustainable. I think that is where the benefits of this discussion will help us plot that as to how we can work together for that.

We've got to build on that action. The Recovery Implementation Plan that I talked about; we want to make sure we can refresh those relationships. A place-based approach is critical in that. These are some of the main areas and I'm sure they're areas that you want to contribute on your ideas and suggestions on that. You know, corona has brought so many different challenges, but it's also a way for us to say, actually how do we want our economy to through this. What does it want to look like and maybe make the step-changes that many of us have wanted to work on and deliver before and to use this as a way to commit ourselves to that.

I want now to pass over to Charlotte Wright, the Chief Executive of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and she's going to give a regional perspective before we open up to members for the discussion. I will keep alert to the chat bar to bring people in to make their contributions. It might be easier, and I've used it before, if you just put an r in there, I'll know to come that you're requesting to speak on that. Can I close that and hand over to you Charlotte please.

Charlotte Wright: Yep, thank you very much Cabinet Secretary and good morning

everyone. The paper that you have in your packs is a very comprehensive paper which

has been supported by a lot of partners in its development. It also picks up some of the

research work which HIE carried out which really highlight some of the severity of

impacts of the pandemic due to structural issues really within our economy. One of the

headline figures in that is a potential drop in our GDP of £1.5 to £2.6 billion over the

year, which is actually an impact of 16 to 19 percent, so a pretty dramatic drop there.

Clearly, that reflects our high dependency on some of those most effected sectors –

tourism, creative industries and food and drink. Of course, we note that these sectors

are also exposed to Brexit. Within the Highlands and Islands, we do have a higher than

average level of SMEs, particularly micro and self-employment also and these increase

some of the fragility although just as an aside, I would note that some have seen this

as a benefit in being able to pivot quickly when you are not carrying large overheads

and we have seen some very creative developments there.

We're very concerned about the long-term impact particularly on our young people in

the Highlands and Islands. Our youth unemployment has been hovering around just

under 10 per cent, so a real critical issue and a deepening of our existing challenges

around population as young people may leave to seek opportunities elsewhere. The

role of our colleges, University of the Highlands and Islands, the Young Persons

Guarantee and support from Skills Development Scotland will be really critical in

tackling this part of our challenge.

Whilst it is true there's an advantage in promoting at the moment, the Highlands and

Islands as a safe and attractive place to live and work from, there are still some

concerns that actually that might have a detrimental impact on the housing market

which already fails to meet the needs of our young people. The Cabinet Secretary

touched on tourism. There's a very strong emphasis on the role tourism plays in all of

our lives and at the peak of the activity in tourism when everything was fully open July

to October, really once again highlighted many of the infrastructure challenges and

partners are really keen to address how we work further to make this key industry more

sustainable.

The levels of support, I think, have been absolutely unprecedented. All of the partners

around this virtual table – and including our communities third sector and voluntary

organisations – have worked enormously hard together to try and alleviate some of the

concerns. I think, seeing the businesses that contact us, I do recognise that there

continues to be some unmet demand and issues and it was good to hear the updates

on the latest on Job Support and hopefully that goes some way to meeting some of the

concerns that have been expressed to us following the closure of the furlough schemes

so it will be good to see how that works out.

On business engagement, I think that's been a really critical part of our work over these

last few months. The feedback from business has been great about the support that

agencies, local authorities, partners and government have provided, but their views

very much mirror what we're seeing in our business panel survey. That almost 80 per

cent see a decreased confidence in the economy going forward with around about a

quarter worried about their own viability. Making sure that we facilitate that liaison

directly with businesses to decision makers to share that real-time intelligence on

impacts, challenges and opportunities, I think remains a really important part of what

we all do.

In terms of focus going forward, resilience clearly still plays a really important part of the activity that we are doing to protect jobs in those key sectors that are bearing the brunt of the impact. We also are turning our attention to developing the areas where those new opportunities for building the recovery exist so in the shorter term, there are opportunities, for example, in care sector, but there are also specific Highlands and Islands opportunities. For example, 250 new jobs announced in Cap Gemini in Inverness is a brilliant opportunity. There are place-based opportunities, renewables, potential in marine, the wider blue economy including aquaculture and we'll touch on some of this in papers later on, homeworking supported by digital.

Great to see the growth of the localism movement and what that can do for local economies and local supply chains and of course there's always room for new business starts and those that are brave enough to be born in a storm. I mentioned as well promoting the Highlands and Islands as a place to live, work, study and invest and we see this as a really good moment in time to press that advantage. Overall, the joined upness of our support, the agreement of our key priorities and our strong local partnerships, I think, remain the absolute bedrock of us being able to move forward. I'll stop there, Cabinet Secretary, and I'm happy to take any other questions or come back in as you get other comments.

Fiona Hyslop: Thank you very much, Charlotte. We have a good half hour for

contributions and also any questions to either of us, but I do want to hear your ideas. I

will bring in Margaret Davidson first and then I'll move to Alex Gallagher and I would

encourage everybody else, if they want to come in, can we please use and indicate you

want to speak in the chat bar. Okay, Margaret.

Margaret Davidson: Okay, I hope I can be heard. Thank you Fiona, thank you

Charlotte. I too would like to just start with a really – oh there we go; my video is off

again. I'd like to start with a thank you for all the work and the help that's been given so

far, but my biggest concern is this coming winter at the moment. It's getting people

through the winter. We've got recovery plans. I think the biggest lack between all of

them and all of our organisations is communication. We need to be absolutely sure we

all know what we are doing so that 1) we don't waste energy and 2) we find the synergy

that helps our contributions be more productive.

I'm genuinely concerned about this coming winter and the way I am seeing the despair

in some of our businesses about are they going to make it through. They've had the

help they can get and that's been variable, as you know, and there's still people falling

through the net. Charlotte acknowledged that. They've spent their savings. They've

spent their reserves. I'm concerned that as we go through this winter, we've got to be

aware that there are people that we need to keep food on their tables and we need to

keep up some sort of hope for the future for them.

Fuel poverty is the other big thing that is hitting them loud and hard as the bills start to come in. I think I'd like to see some discussion about how we're just going to get people through this winter. If I think three years ahead, I'm quite excited. If I think five years ahead, I'm very excited. I am sure we can recover. I am sure that we have thriving economies, but we've things we need to do now and the first one for me is making sure that we get through this winter as the preparatory work for recovery gets on. I'm sure others will talk about the recovery agenda.

We've got every opportunity in the Highlands and Islands to make a strong, improved, building better – that's what people are saying, but I think we need to make the joins between are we sure that we've got enough welfare out there to keep our communities going. We've had 350 groups come together across the Highlands to support their communities. They are worried about – maybe the three tops things. The mental health of people – the cure is becoming pretty grim for a lot of people. The ability to get onto welfare quickly and we'll do what help we can, and we'll see what we can – the numbers – thank HIE for pulling together the statistics.

The numbers on Universal Credit in Highland are terrifying and they are also wanting easy routes into all the public agencies and all the help they can get. They need to be a signpost for the people in their own communities. We've got a tremendous resource to use, but we need to be really geared up to do it. We're doing our best, but I actually think there is something about a wider contribution and a wider understanding from the government on this. It's the next few months that are going to really concern us.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks very much Margaret. Very heartfelt and I absolutely understand

the importance of that resilience of not just long-term, it's [immediate] as well.

Margaret Davidson: Yes.

Fiona Hyslop: I think pointers there for identifying the economic support we're

providing for businesses is about survivability. I understand it's not income

replacement, it can't be, but [unclear] some of the work particularly on the community

side of it and some of the previous support that was provided was very important for

communities. I think it is the combined aspect of community resilience with economic

resilience is what is going to get us through and the how do we mobilise the third

sector, public sector and the government for that all-rounded approach and perhaps in

a [place-base]. I'll certainly speak to [Amy Camlin].

I don't plan to comment on everybody's contribution, you'll be pleased to know, but I

thought I'd just come back to you on that Margaret. I've got Alex Gallagher and then I

think I've got Garry to come in. Alex.

Alex Gallagher: Yes minister, thanks for that. It's a very comprehensive paper that

covers a lot of ground. I sure the attendees won't be surprised to hear me saying that a

lot of the focus on it and the charts were on the outer islands and Orkney and Shetland,

but just remember there are islands in the Clyde. I've got three occupied, populated

islands and so just to my usual gentle reminder that we are here as well. What I would

say is that in terms of the recovery, I think I'd like to highlight a couple of things that

we've done and to echo some of the stuff that Margaret just said.

We had the Fraser of Allander Institute do a study on Arran – if I get my glasses – to

give us some idea of the base information that there is on the island and how we could

design a recovery from it. They calculated that the GVA for the island fell by a third

over six months and that was because of reduced passenger numbers, a drop in

tourism and even the other related activities like, as you say, food and drink et cetera.

There was a result of about a third of a fall. It was calculated that the ferry contributed

about £170,000 a day to the economy on Arran.

I think that sort of information is very good, and I think it was surprising to us that that was so high. That money supports jobs and if it is not there, then we're already beginning to see people who have lost their jobs, who are not domiciled on the island, are beginning to drift off. We'll be coming to later on in the meeting about depopulation. Arran is also suffering over the long-term from depopulation so that's worth mentioning.

We've been in strong communication with lots of groups on the island including the Arran Recovery Group and one of the things that we did [as one] – and it echoes what I think Margaret's just been saying, is we asked for a possibility of an Infrastructure Fund that could support redevelopment and re-establishment of the economy on Arran and on [Cumbrae] and I'm sure that a similar idea wouldn't not be dismissed for the other islands. We have asked for that.

Yeah, one of the things we have done is that we have worked with the Scottish Government – and I think we're grateful for that – and with Highlands and Islands Enterprise to identify and we are starting the process of hiring a dedicated Islands Officer. This will be a senior officer whose job will be to work through me as a portfolio holder to first of all, as I've just said, establish a database of information of what's actually happening on the island and to provide a 10-year plan. You know, the islands are very highly dependent on tourism and we would – well, first question we would ask is, in 10 years' time is that what we want.

We'll tie this in with our community wealth building and with our green plans forward for the whole area, but we intend to produce a 2030 plan. It looks as if my video has gone as well. I'll try it again. The last thing I would say is that we have been using our regional development - our growth fund and our Regional Economic Partnership to focus on the islands so we've allocated some cash for that as well. I think the point is that we are establishing a base of information. We think that an Infrastructure Fund is required, and I think that would apply generally across the islands, thank you.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks Alex. Charlotte's just posted in the chat bar that the Arran

Recovery Group is an excellent example of local business and community coming

together to get your voice heard on recovery. If I bring in Garry and then I'll move to

Xander McDaid. Garry.

Garry Coutts: Thank you very Cab Sec. Couple of things. Can I just say I really do

agree with Margaret Davidson's comments earlier on, when I do feel confident about

the future and I think there is a real lot of optimism that we can have, but for an awful

lot of people both at an individual level and an institutional and business level, then the

next few months are going to be absolutely critical and how we support people to

survive so that they can take advantage of these opportunities as they come up is

going to be really important.

I also want to endorse the point that she was making about duplication. It is important

that we do have recovery plans in place, but we've got to think about where is it – how

are we going to make sure that those are not duplicating each other. Are we doing

them at a local authority level or a regional level. Are we doing then at a sectoral level,

are we doing them at an institutional level. Everybody just now is working in a variety of

different ways and I think we've got to try and make sure that we're not getting pulled in

a number of different directions.

University of the Highlands and Islands is absolutely committed to supporting the

necessary support for skills and for business development and making sure that people

have the appropriate and necessary skills as we move forward, but in a region which is

dependent on micro-businesses, that's going to look quite different from what it is going

to look like in the rest of the country. Our dependence for large parts of our economy

on micro-businesses means that we are going to have to be really responsive to their

particular needs and we can't just look to the sort of solutions that are going to be

required in areas where you have very big single employers.

The immediate support that people need, whether that is around training, whether that

is around skills development or whether it is about giving people space and support to

think about what the future might look for them, is something that we've got to be able

to make sure that people know is available to them. Just now, I meet an awful lot of

people who are feeling just a little bit lost and a little bit cut adrift.

Trying to make sure that we have, in my view, a regional response across the Highlands and Islands with obviously local and sectoral spin offs from it – that one place that people can look to for that regional and sectoral response, I think is going to be critical as we move forward. Hopefully we'll will be able to develop that in the next few months as we go through this very critical period.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks Garry. Can I bring in Xander and then I've got Alastair Cooper.

Charlotte, I'll come to you before we finish at 10 past 11 as well just to see if you want

to pick up on anything that you've heard.

Xander McDade: Thanks. Yeah I think the level of resilience has been quite incredible

across businesses, individuals and communities. I think that we about to see the real

test over the winter because that is when it is going to – as Margaret says, people have

exhausted all of their available cash in terms of loans and in terms of their reserves and

we are about to face the real test. I think, we welcome the tiers system into the

businesses in the National Park, that will give supporters more certainty. I think that's

the key thing that the government can provide to businesses at the moment is as much

certainty as possible.

It's very difficult to put any level of certainty in this situation, but people can at least plan a bit more as they have an idea of what they are likely to be facing in terms of restrictions because I think the current round of restrictions have been felt quite harshly in terms of - by some of the [unclear] of the National Park. I think that having that certainty of what it's likely to look like in terms of restrictions will be really beneficial. We've had a Green Recovery Fund in National Park and we were over-subscribed for that and it's been really successful. Some of it has already allowed us to support businesses and community groups with working towards the recovery and some of that money is actually towards business support in terms of actually supporting businesses to the situations.

I think one of the key things I just wanted to emphasise. I think it's important since we've got lots of senior government ministers on the call, is around the big infrastructure and capital projects. Obviously the government is going to be facing a lot of financial pressure, but I think it's really important that we have – that we maintain a lot of these big capital infrastructure projects such as the A9 dualling and others which will bring knock on benefits to the committees not just in the long-term, but in the immediate short-term, were we're bringing people into these areas who might otherwise not be in these areas.

I think from my point is to have [unclear] or those infrastructure and capital projects be maintained and if possible perhaps accelerated to help provide some of that. Obviously, we all love more cash, but that's not going to always happen. I think, just the more certainty that we can provide in these very uncertain times, the better for our businesses and the more likely they are to survive. I think, more are likely to go bust due to a lack of and inability to plan than anything else.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay. Important points there. We now have Alastair Cooper and then I

am going to come to Michael Foxley and then I'll come to Mike Cantlay and then I'll

come to Graham Leadbitter. I think actually that's going to probably take us timewise,

so unless there is any last minute [unclear], but also if you can be concise as well, that

would be helpful. Thank you very much.

Alastair Cooper: Thank you Cabinet Secretary. In the case of Shetland, we've been

insulated to some extent by a seafood sector which has been able to continue

operating reasonably, but we do have two clouds on the horizon. One is the hospitality

and the creative sector. We're end of the line when it comes to tourism and I think we

are going to really struggle this winter and the outlook for 2021 doesn't look all that

great either. The cruise trade which is a significant contributor in the Shetland economy

is not looking to hopeful.

The other one that we're worried about is the oil sector. The amount of exploration

West of Shetland is tailing off. The actual throughput from East of Shetland and dare I

say the West of Shetland is reducing quite dramatically and there are concerns about

the ongoing success of the oil industry in our area. That is the two clouds that we have

on the horizon. Having said that, I think for the medium and the long-term, Shetland is

well placed with that which is being promoted at the moment and I think it is going to be

a great place to live, work and invest. In the short-term, we do have two particular

clouds on the horizon.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks Alastair. Obviously, if people can use their video please

do, but you don't have to if it's voice only. Michael Foxley, and then I'll come Mike

Cantlay.

Michael Foxley: Yes, good morning Cabinet Secretary. Just a couple of comments

from me. First of all, the UHI network – the 13 colleges, the 70 learning centres, 37

students have come back either to finish their courses or to start new courses. There's

been minimal COVID within the returning students. HE numbers are fully recruited and

we're almost at full recruitment for FE students. We're working very hard on short

courses which will be required and working with local businesses about that. The

negative one – I know it's picked up later on, Cab Sec, but in terms of digital

connectivity, there's still 20 per cent of households with less than 10 megabytes per

second and that is a serious problem which some of us encountered while we were

coming into this.

Finally, picking up the comment that Garry Coutts made, we do need a regional

response. In terms of resilience, I certainly favour a Regional Economic Partnership.

Thank you very much.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thank you. Mike Cantlay.

Mike Cantlay: Yeah, hello. Good morning. Okay, so Garry and Michael didn't mention

the one thing which I think I maybe should which is just to remind everyone that of our

45 FE and HE institutions across Scotland, each and every one of them has the most

intense challenges at the moment and that is appreciated. Certainly, [SFC] is working

with each and every one to help each of the institutions through this. The short-term

priority has to be to assist those arriving on the labour market and of course the

business community across the Highlands and Islands.

Speaking in a sense, from outwith the area, I genuinely believe UHI is a great model for

this. Just as Michael was saying, this is a battle in terms of best serving those who are

arriving in the labour market that will be fought at a local level. With the network of

colleges as part of UHI, I think we are well set – and I'm not going to repeat all the

initiatives that are underway, but there is such a plethora of initiatives there with our

colleagues at SDS providing labour market intelligence and Scottish Funding Council's

trying to provide as much flexibility in funding as possible as well.

The one thing looking forward, which is a point that several folk have made this

morning, is Scottish Funding Council embarked on a review of what we call coherence

and sustainability, but it really looks to the future – the next five to 10 years – of how

we're going to take further and higher education forward in Scotland. We specifically

look at this point at the multi-college regional networks of which UHI is one, and I would

certainly ask that anyone who has the time to have a look at the review – Phase 1 was

published last week – we'd certainly appreciate your comments and interest, thank you.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thank you and I come to Graham Leadbitter and then I think I'll

be able to get Alistair Dodds in as well. Graham.

Graham Leadbitter: Yep, thanks Cabinet Secretary. Just a couple of points that, I

suppose, just amplify some of the points that have already been made. Xander made

some points about infrastructure. I think that is going to be absolutely critical for Moray

going forward. The A96 dualling and the A9 dualling obviously have huge impacts for

us, but also the railway which has an impact on Highland with access to Inverness and

down to Aberdeen. The work there to continue getting line improvements there and

getting journey time improvements is absolutely critical.

The connectivity issues for Moray and the wider Highlands and Islands are of critical importance when it comes to dealing with population and when it comes to expanding our economy and economic growth and recovery. I would – and this goes into the greener paper as well. What I don't want to happen – and I think it is just a bit of an amber flag, if you like, rather than a red flag, but we don't want to see the dualling of the A96 or the dualling of the A9 fall off the radar because it's deemed not to be green. Getting vehicles out of our towns in Moray that [have severance] because of the A96, people are not keen to cycle or walk because they don't feel particularly safe on a very busy road.

These are absolutely critical to the green recovery and to take all these heavy vehicles off the road and to have them where they are running on the roads, to run more efficiently without stop starts through the middle of towns. That infrastructure investment is of critical importance in getting the economy moving in the coming months and years. It's keeping that either on track or even accelerating it, I think is of vital importance and any additional speed we can get into these big projects will have a huge impact on the Highlands and Islands.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks very much Graham. I think, finally if I can come to Alistair and

then Charlotte, if I can come to you for any summing up you've got, particularly on the

paper and I'll just make some closing comments from what I've heard. Alistair.

Alistair Cooper: Yeah, thanks Cabinet Secretary. Can I just emphasise about the

great support there has been across the public sector in the Highlands and Island. It's

been great to see the level of joint working that has been going on. I'd agree with

something that's been said really about the need for resilience over the next six

months, but also longer term as well and the importance of jobs. I really need to

emphasise the issue of regional solutions whether that's in relation to sustainable

tourism or something you mentioned round about the Young Persons Job Guarantee.

We have to make sure that the solutions fit the particular areas of Scotland they apply

to.

I think the last thing which I'd mention and it's a really difficult thing for the government,

but also for local authorities and HIE, is about future funding. We will need to provide

support and that's been wonderful support so far, but we really need to listen to

businesses and communities to see what's required both in the short and the medium-

term. That's all from me, thanks.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay. Thanks very much, Alistair. Charlotte, can I come to you if you

want to pick up and develop some of the themes and if there's things that you see that

we can build on from this. Obviously, we've reflected in the paper what we think to look

for, but there's very important points been made during that conversation so, Charlotte.

Charlotte Wright: Thanks very much. I've listened very carefully to everyone's

contributions and firstly just to say that we'll continue to follow these up in our bilaterals

as well as any other regional meetings. I think what we've brought together here are a

couple of key things that I think are worthy of further attention. Firstly, is the challenge

of the winter and we absolutely understand that again tourism faces an uncertain future

and I think there's probably just that the clocks have gone back and it does have an

impact on all of us as we start into the next season.

We really need to remain, I think, vigilant and connected so that's making sure that

we're sharing our information. Again, certainly our undertaking from Highlands and

Islands Enterprise is to continue reaching out to businesses. I think there is something

here about how we make the best use of our joint resources working together through

whatever means. The role of infrastructure has been brought out and I think that is

vitally important as we need to balance our opportunities such as being able to promote

the Highlands and Islands as a great place live, work and invest with some of the

continuing infrastructure challenge. How do we work through our growth deals and

other means to be able to actually target that.

I think – thank you to Alistair Cooper for reminding us of the very real issue around the

downturn in oil and gas particularly. I'm sure we'll come into this on the next paper, but

our work around helping to decarbonise the existing energy sector as well as reaching

forward to new green and renewables opportunities. I think we've really heard from the

education and skills sector in this debate, absolutely vital and I think we probably need

to join up a bit more to make sure that we can respond as quickly as possible not only

to the issues for our young people, but the retraining, upskilling agenda for new

opportunities where people are having to transition from sectors which are under

pressure into new opportunities.

Finally, maybe we haven't quite addressed one of the questions in the paper and I'm

happy to pick up with partners individually around is there any further regional structure

which is required for some of these cross-cutting regional level themes. I think that

plays into the point Alistair Dodds has just made. Hopefully that's helpful as a bit of a

summary, Cabinet secretary, thanks.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thank you very much and if somebody can indicate whether I

hand over to the First Minister or Fergus Ewing after this point. A few things from me. I

think that the way we can try and survive and potentially thrive will be how do we, I

suppose, get the synergy between all the different sector contributions between the

council, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, but also how do we leverage in – and thank

you for Michael and Mike for reminding us that there is a very strong base there,

particularly around our HE FE offer. Actually, trying to make sure that we are using

synergies across all of these, I think are really important which comes to Margaret's

point about communication.

How do we make sure that we are not having that duplication of intervention that was

also mentioned but have a real focus. I think that regional response, what does that

mean. I think there needs to be that strategic regional response, but the impact will

most definitely be particularly felt in communities and place. I'm very struck that there

are a lot of areas that are really suffering, but there are ones that are stable and can

survive and thrive. Actually, I think that kind of peer to peer support can also be helpful,

but the point I think somebody talked about people feeling lost. We cannot allow

anybody to feel lost.

There might not be the finances that everybody might wish for, but there are resources and I think that collective response is going to be really important so we don't leave businesses or individuals feeling as if they are on their own. I take very much those points and we need to think about what the practical interventions that we can bring to bear to help mobilise that and to try and help us make sure that we can get through this and it's how do we keep our on the horizon and I think we'll come to that in some of the papers that are about to be discussed.

I think that kind of point about resilience isn't just for the long-term, resilience is for the short-term and what are the interventions at different levels that can be made and how do we use the sum of the parts of all the different weavers that we collectively have round the table or round the screens as we are today to try and mobilise that. I think the point about keeping talking is going to be critical to make sure that the great ideas – the good ideas can be taken forward, but we actually team up and I think it is that team approach that will get us through that.

I think those are bringing the conclusions together. I hope I've got enough from that to help then give a perspective and if the Deputy First Minister is with us – John, can I hand back over to you [inaudible] part of the agenda as well. Thank you.

John Swinney: Okay, thanks very much Fiona. Thank you to colleagues for their

contributions and can I just say also, it's a pleasure to welcome into that discussion

Alistair Dodds as the Chair of Highlands and Islands Enterprise, so welcome Alistair to

your role. I think a number of the points made by colleagues are really strong points

which are very much the subject of discussion within government about how we act as

effectively as we possibly can do to support local economies through what we

recognise to be very difficult and turbulent times.

So many of the tourism-related businesses in the Highlands and Islands will operate on the basis of maximising income over the summer to carry them through more difficult periods in the winter and that obviously is a model which has come under severe strain this year. What we've been working to do is to put in place as much support as we can do to try to create the basis in which businesses can navigate their way through those difficulties. Obviously, we will continue to keep many of these approaches under active review and these issues are material to the Strategic Framework that Fiona talked about as was introduced on Friday.

Okay, we'll reflect on the response. Officials have been working on the outcomes that arise out of that discussion. We'll come back to those at a later stage in the day. We can now move on to our second item which is on building the green recovery. I'll invite Fergus Ewing to open up this discussion and to invite contributions and Fergus, I'll come in again around about 20 to 12 to draw things to a close. Fergus.

Fergus Ewing: Okay, thank you very much John. Good morning everybody. First of

all, can I add my thanks to all local authority colleagues and to HIE on this call for

working as a team in order to provide those tourism and other businesses that have

been so effected by COVID, with the financial support that we have been able to

extend. It's been a terrific effort and I just want to thank every person involved in that,

both in local authority side in the grants, and in HIE in the economic funds – the PERF

and others.

It has been an extremely difficult time, particularly for tourism and the impact on

people's lives and livelihoods has been absolutely horrendous. I'm sure everybody on

this call is aware of just how important that financial support has been as a bridge

through to the other side of this crisis. The paper on the green economy can be seen

as a challenge or an opportunity. I think actually it's an enormous opportunity

particularly for the Highlands and Islands. As we know, because we discussed a year

ago, the agreement was that the global climate emergency would be a priority for future

work in this Convention and so it is.

The Climate Change Act has presented with very challenging targets and a very clear

commitment to reduce our emissions to net-zero by 2045, five years ahead of the rest

of the UK. A target which recognises that we have the landmass asset, especially in

the Highlands and Islands, to contribute to the work required to meet that target. In a

moment, I'll bring in Kersti Berge to speak to the paper on this before having a wider

discussion. I just wanted to say a few words about what I think the opportunity may

comprise.

First of all, on the renewables front, we've achieved greater things in the Highlands and

Islands. It's been most frustrating that we haven't seen the island connections going

ahead, something that I know many of you have worked on for a long time. Those

campaigns to connect to the Hebrides and to the Northern Isles continues because

after all, they offer perhaps the best potential wind energy in Europe if not the world. It's

absurd that they are not being developed.

We do have an enormous opportunity for renewables, not only wind, but hydro of course and also pump storage and I know that there are several very large schemes which could not only contribute to climate change, but also provide an enormous boost to the economy. I thought I'd specially mention that because that's another area where a little more support and clarity, I think, from the UK Government to enable these schemes to become realities is urgently required.

It's not only renewables, it is also areas like forestry, farming and peatlands. In forestry, the Scottish Government has made available £130 million to further increase our targets and the Highlands and Islands will be in the vanguard of much of that work which offers opportunities not only for the primary sector, but for the sawmill and panel products sector which are very important to the Highlands economy and a sector which by and large is doing pretty well and employing young people a pace which is extremely encouraging to see.

On the farming front, the paper records that we're just about to see the publication of an independent report led by former NFUS president Jim Walker which I think will set out a course which will potentially lead the way to see Scotland develop sustainable farming practices which can be world-leading in the production of our fine quality Scotch beef so as well as having high quality Scotch beef, we will also have pure beef. This report, as I say – I think it is about to be published. It's an independent report and which will have ambitious and major changes about how farming in [this upper] beef sector is followed. That will be followed by farmer-led groups including arable and including high-nature value of hill farms and extensive holdings.

We're not overlooking the role that all parts of the economy must play. There are also of course, many other areas such as in [heat] and in transport where we've got an awful lot to do and where my colleagues in government are leading the way in programmes. I do feel that for the Highlands and Islands, the important thing is to stress, is that whilst these targets are very challenging – highest in the world so far as I know, Kersti will correct me if I am wrong. Whilst they are very challenging, actually they do present an enormous opportunity for the Highlands and Islands because logically we have the land mass asset.

Arguably really only here in the Highlands and Islands can we achieve the targets by using our natural resources – our natural capital – to be developed to the full. If we're to meet the targets, this becomes a necessity not a matter of choice or discretion, and therefore I am very optimistic about the way ahead. In saying that, can I pass over to Kersti Berge, the director for energy and climate change to present an overview of the paper and lead the discussion. Kersti, thank you.

Kersti Berge: Thank you very much Mr Ewing. I've got a slide pack so if somebody

can put that up if that's straight forward, that would be good. If it doesn't work, don't

worry, I'll just talk. I'll try to be brief because I think the value from this comes from the

conversation and the points that others make. As Mr Ewing said, obviously our climate

change targets are very stretching, and they are also in legislation. I would also note

legislation in relation to climate change is that we make this a just transition so that

ensures that we have a green recovery that supports jobs and rebuilds our economy in

a way that supports net-zero.

Have we got the slides up? Can anyone see the slides? I can't actually see them.

IT Support: They should be on your screen now.

Kersti Berge: Yep, so if whoever is controlling the slides could try and put them on the

big screen, but don't worry I will talk through them and we can circulate them later.

What the first slide does, is summarise some of the common themes that stakeholders

feel need to be part of a green recovery and a green transition. We've already talked

about the need for a just transition. Another theme that was picked up in the earlier

discussion is the importance of infrastructure investment to leverage jobs and

economic recovery and also the skills and training support.

As you will be aware, this year's Programme for Government – and we've touched on this already today – focused on the green recovery and the National [mission from jobs] with the £2 billion low carbon infrastructure investment that Ms Hyslop already announced, £1.6 billion investment in energy efficiency and heat decarbonisation, £100 million for a Green Jobs Fund and as Mr Ewing mentioned, an additional £130 million on forestry and land to support net-zero.

The paper – that's good, so hopefully people can see the slides on the big screen. If you could turn to slide 2. As Mr Ewing did, I'm going to focus on the opportunities. We're fully aware of the challenges, they are tremendous as was the points that was made in the previous discussion. There are clearly unique and important opportunities for the Highlands and Islands, both in the green recovery, but also in terms of the longer-term transition. Mr Ewing, I'll only pick out a few of these. The paper sets them out more comprehensively and others may want to come in to point out the ones that we haven't touched on.

Renewable energy is obviously a key one and Mr Ewing touched on this. The only additional points I would make is we're going to have the ScotWind leasing round towards the end of – which will mean significant investment in offshore particularly floating wind towards the end of this decade. This is a fairly new technology so there should be considerably more supply chain opportunities for Scotland than has been the case with the fixed bottom wind to date.

The offshore wind is also going to play a critical role in decarbonising the oil and gas sector, so oil and gas sector production can be powered by renewable energy so it's a huge opportunity there. Mr Ewing has already mentioned opportunities in pumped hydro storage including small-scale. Scotland counts for 80 per cent of small-scale hydro projects and they have a vital role in bringing jobs to more rural areas. Again, Mr Ewing's touched on forestry, farming and peatland. I'd maybe bring out the Scottish Government's commitment to peatland investment as part of the green transition – even more strong.

We have committed £20 million for peatland restoration this year, but importantly £250 million over the next 10 years and what that does is it provides the private sector and others with opportunities to invest early in skills and also in capital for that peatland restoration. Again, Mr Ewing's talked about agriculture and I won't say much about that. I will touch on the blue economy though. As you are aware, Scotland's marine zone is one of the largest in Europe and it's an enormous natural and economic resource. We talked about it in terms renewable energy, but it's clearly much broader than that.

In the work on the blue economy, we want to look holistically across the marine sectors, both at our economic, our social and environmental objectives to deliver a joined up action plan in areas such as skill, investment and natural capital. We're working with parties from the private sector and across the public sector to develop an action plan to achieve that. There are obviously opportunities, but I won't touch on food and drink. Happy to pick that up in conversations.

There is obviously opportunities across different sectors but there's some really important cross-cutting issues and again some of these were touched on in the early discussion. We know the challenges around population decline particularly the younger population in the Highlands and Islands. Micro-enterprises, again this provides both opportunities in terms of flexibility but also challenges. I just want to talk, I think, particularly about connectivity.

We know digital connectivity has been pivotal over the last six months and there is an expectation that we will be able to do more work from home and provide more services remotely. Overall, this does feel like it brings huge opportunities for the Highlands and Islands, but we also know that good connectivity is key to making this happen. I think it's worked better just for this meeting than the previous ones, but it's obvious that the R100 programme, which will ensure that every home and business in Scotland can access superfast broadband by the end of next year is absolutely pivotal.

As I said, there's a number of other cross-cutting themes which – some provide opportunities, some provide challenges. Obviously money, managing EU exit being part of that, but in interests of time, I suggest we pick these up in discussions. If you turn to the final slide, we've set out five questions which we suggest we could structure the discussion around. It doesn't have to be that, but – so the key questions are around, having read the paper and listened to my very brief summary, does this capture the region's specific assets and strengths.

Are there areas where we need to do things differently. Are there currently barriers around access to national level funds that could be addressed to suit the different needs of the Highlands and Islands regions. Are there opportunities for COHI members to work more collaboratively together and how do we build a just transition into our policies and projects. Thank you.

Fergus Ewing: I think I saw James Stockan wanted to come in. James.

James Stockan: Yeah, thank you very much minister. I think Amanda was before me,

but I will start off anyway because I'm quite sure that Amanda is going to – from the

Crown Estate – tell us of the enormous opportunity we have in Scotland. You asked

firstly was there anything missed and one of my huge issues that I can see on

opportunities is greening the fishing fleet and actually taking back to some local benefit

from the fish that's fished in the waters around Scotland. Regardless of what happens

with Brexit, it's tying that benefit back to local areas.

At the moment, we have places – I often describe it like owning an orchard and somebody comes along and picks your apples, sells them in the market and no value comes back to the locality and seeing how we can rebuild an industry around that if there is more relaxation or more opportunity. I think that's a really big blue and green opportunity. Working in that whole blue economy, the Highlands and Islands have got the biggest advantage for seabed and for the water column and things that happen on top of it than anywhere probably in the country, so it must be an absolute focus that we [take] in that direction.

Fergus Ewing: I think our fisheries discussion paper and strategy paper which we

based on that will specifically grant your wish, I think James.

James Stockan: That's good.

Fergus Ewing: There will be a desire to move towards setting aside additional quota,

for example, for particular communities and areas so there will be an orchard in Orkney

as far as fisheries goes, if I could mix a series of metaphors there. I think we've got

Amanda and then Robin Currie. Amanda.

Amanda Bryan: Thanks Cab Sec. Yeah, I'm going to address the first two questions

that Kersti posed and it will be no surprise that I'm going to emphasise the really vital

role that our marine sectors have to play in economic recovery and sustainable

development across the Highlands and Islands. It's already mentioned that whole

concept of a blue green recovery and I think we really can't ignore our marine

environment. I guess what I want to do today is to encourage us to really act bold and

think big.

Again, reflecting on what Alistair Cooper said earlier about the challenges facing the oil and gas sector, I think now is really the time to be investing in the green transformation of our oil and gas sector, harnessing the assets and the skills that are there at the moment. If we leave it too much longer, they're going to disappear so how do we harness those assets and skills to integrate with offshore wind, to realise the potential of carbon capture storage and to create that hydrogen economy. There really is something that all of that can hang together really nicely.

Accompanying that, but also looking at other aspects of the blue economy, I think now is really the time to invest in our ports and harbours and I don't think that came across strongly enough in the paper because really these are our vital components of tomorrow's blue green economies so we really need to build on that. I think we need to recognise that each of those challenges that I've just addressed are – they're huge, but they've got to be advanced together in order for us to realise that transformational potential of Scotland's blue economy.

It's already been mentioned that we've got a key role to place obviously in terms of managing Scotland's seabed and ScotWind – we're anticipating that ScotWind could essentially unlock something like £20 billion worth of investment and help move Scotland towards net-zero. We're already working with partners across these sectors to try and join the dots and help make it happen, including their own investment strategy. However, I think what we have to do is acknowledge that it will actually require a new cross-sectoral and strategic approach. Both to supporting development, but also in terms of joining up regulation and really focusing in on some of the key investments that will actually help put Scotland on that global stage.

I think without that joined up approach and concentrated effort, we won't – there's the potential that we might miss some of these opportunities. We'd be very happy – Crown Estate Scotland – to work with COHI partners and the Scottish Government – I mean, Kersti's department, Marine Scotland, are going to be absolutely essential in all of this to try and establish a deliver road map both for the blue green recovery alongside the blue economy action plan, but I think specifically focusing in on some of these significant investments.

We've seen what can happen, Cabinet Secretary, around the focus that was put around Fort William, for example, so when you can get that alignment and you can get everybody pointing in the same direction, I think we can be much more successful. I'll leave it at that.

Fergus Ewing: I think Robin Currie was next. Was that right

or did you want to come in John?

Robin Currie: Hello?

IT Support: We can hear you Robin.

Robin Currie: Okay, thanks very much, Just a couple of quick points from Argyll and

Bute. One was regarding the circular economy on pages 34 to 36. It was really just to

say, I don't think it really captures the real problems that we have in the likes of Argyll

and Bute because there is no mention there of the high cost of the waste haulage

which is an important issue for us and for other authorities in the Highlands and Islands

as well. Also, the paper – although this might be an opportunity to say that the COHI or

authorities be given preferential terms when applying for a fund which is mentioned

later on – the £70 million fund.

Also, although the paper – there's not a cap on the deposit return scheme and I think

there's great potential there for local remote and island communities to play a part in

delivering that scheme. Finally, Cabinet Secretary, the issue about crofting, farming

grants. As a crofter's son, I would say just I wonder how important the machinery grant

really is to the Highlands and Islands.

Fergus Ewing: Ok thanks, John Thurso and if anyone wants to come in, could they please indicate. John Thurso, and if anyone else wants to contribute before we wind up, please signal now, thank you. John.

John Thurso: Thank you very much indeed, Cabinet Secretary. I just wanted to say

first of all, that the point about it being cross-cutting is really important. If I'm looking

from a tourism perspective, there's a huge commercial opportunity in greening tourism.

Our research of those who are most likely to visit, particularly amongst the millennials,

shows that they want to buy an experience and they want an experience that aligns

with their values and they therefore greatly appreciate staying in places and travelling

by methods that are sustainable.

Therefore, if we can move to more sustainable places to stay through various use of even off-grid in some of the remoter places, renewables and if we can encourage charging points for cars so that people can travel electrically, this is a real commercial opportunity. The second point was that technology is changing incredibly rapidly and in the not too distant future, the most environmentally friendly way to travel around Orkney will be in an electric aeroplane and work is going on now that is likely to deliver that within a couple of years.

Finally, the point about connectivity. I think one of the most exciting things is the ability to have senior managers working remotely which means they can be working in crofting communities and other places, but without that connectivity it's extraordinarily difficult to deliver that. Thank you.

Fergus Ewing: Okay. I don't have anybody else unless…

IT Support: Chair, I've asked to speak. Councillor Gallagher.

Fergus Ewing: On you go, Alex.

Alex Gallagher: Okay, thanks for that. Yes, I think it's a good report. I think I would

echo the question or concern on funding. I believe the current funding is time limited

and I think we need a long-term fund to support green initiatives. In North Ayrshire, we

already have a small fund, but obviously I don't think it's going to cover everything over

a 10-year period. We have a 2030 date for our zero carbon emissions. The one thing I

would say that – I know there is a certain amount of ideological resistance to this idea,

but we've just been told that the Hunterston B power station is going to be closing very

soon and we have in our special plan, made allowances for modular nuclear

developments.

These are a new development in nuclear power stations which can be quite small and be added to apparently – I'm not an expert, but the technology can be doubled and quadrupled quite easily. I think if we're going to be serious about our green future, then whatever other problems that people see with nuclear energy, it is green and I would suggest that maybe we should be considering that and we'll leave it at decision. Okay, thanks.

Fergus Ewing: Kersti, did you want to sum up? I can't see anybody else commenting

and I think we've run out of time. Do you want briefly to sum up before we pass back to

the DFM?

Margaret Davidson: Hello Fergus. I asked twice in the chat room to comment, but if

we've run out of time, we've run out of time.

Fergus Ewing: Sorry, Margaret. We'll hear from you later.

Margaret Davidson: Okay.

Fergus Ewing: Okay, thanks Margaret. Sorry about that. Kersti.

Kersti Berge: Fergus, I'll sum up very briefly. Just struck by – and I'll just pick up a few

points. Amanda's point about the need to focus all efforts around some of the really big

opportunities in infrastructure, notably offshore wind. I think the model that we have

developed to help the transition in the north east – so we've invested £62 million in the

northeast transition fund which is a combination of skills support, investment in

deployment to help the oil and gas industry transition into new opportunities and

[unclear] might be the kind of model we want to look at. I think again, it echoes the

discussion earlier about the need to focus on infrastructure investment to help that

transition.

On Robin's point, I think it's clear actually we need to pick up a bit more around the

deposit return scheme. A bit more on the challenges and opportunities, I think was your

general point on the circular economy. I think – and again, support for tourism and I

didn't bring that out in my comments, but it's there and I think it may have beefed up in

the paper and maybe the work that we take forward. The opportunities for sustainable

tourism relates a bit to sustainability in food and drink so shorter supply chains, but just

the demand particularly in the younger generation for the opportunities to have more

sustainable tourism, more nature-based, more environmentally friendly travel. Again,

there's huge opportunities there.

Finally, we touched on the point around connectivity. There's opportunities for people to

provide services at all levels and all skills more remotely. Again, some big opportunities

there. Fergus, unless there's anything else you think I've missed, these are probably

the key points I took from the discussion. Thanks.

Fergus Ewing: Thank you very much Kersti. Thanks everyone for contributing. I'm

sorry it was a relatively short session, so I'm very sorry we didn't get to everybody. I'm

sure Margaret, we'll hear from you later on the projects which intersects some of the

discussion we've been having in this session. Perhaps, in thanking everybody for their

contributions, I could pass back to the Deputy First Minister to add his comments and

continue the agenda. I have to attend to other business John, so I will exit in just a

moment. Thank you.

John Swinney: Okey doke, thanks very much Fergus. Thank you for that discussion

and we'll reflect on those outcomes and points to sum up at the close of the day. We

now move on to the next agenda item which is a discussion on the Gaelic language,

and we have a paper which has been prepared. I'll shortly invite Mairi MacInnes and

Shona NicIllinnein from Bòrd na Gàidhlig to say a few words and I think to show a

video which I hope will work technologically. Let me just say a few words at the outset.

There is – this has been an issue which COHI has looked at on different occasions in

recent years and the Gaelic language is an essential part of our history and our identity

and our future as a country. It's important that we recognise the fragility of the language

and take all necessary action that we can across a range of different organisation to

maximise all that we do to nurture, support and encourage the use of the Gaelic

language. Back in 2018, the Bòrd na Gàidhlig produced the National Language Plan

and arising from that, we committed to taking forward a range of areas of work across a

number of different organisations, local authorities, public bodies and other

organisations to support the implementation and advancement of the vision within that

plan.

That involved looking at opportunities in Gaelic-medium education, in tourism, in digital activity, in community usage and support and in language acquisition recognising that the future of the language would be cemented if there was widespread action across a number of different fronts to enable that to be the case. More recently, we've had some research which came from the University of the Highlands and Islands which raised a number of very concerning perspectives about the community use of the language within vernacular communities.

I've recently been convening discussions with a number of community representatives across the Highlands and Islands – again forced upon us digitally, but they've worked perfectly well – to gather thinking about the work that needs to be done to support the language. I suppose, I would sum up where I think things are just now, is that there is a vast amount of really good work underway within communities and organisations to support the development of the Gaelic language, not least of which is the commitment and the practical implementation of Gaelic-medium education, but there is a necessity to further support the development of vernacular use of the language.

That's an issue that I've taken away from these discussions which I'm now reflecting on very closely. Those are some of the challenges that we face. I'll pass on to Mairi and we'll – I think we're going to see a video, but I'm being prompted to remind people that they need to be in the right view to see this. Andrew, I think you better say something about that.

IT Support: Okay, so just – because obviously we've got a video. I want to make sure

that if you are on grid view, you're not all viewing it as a small window. If you are in grid

view and you're on a computer, at the top of the screen there is the task bar that says

file, edit, share, view. You want to click on view and go down to the bottom of that list

where it says hide non-video participants and you want to select that. Alternatively, if

you can't find that, where you went onto gird view, if you go back onto that little icon at

the top, there is a – it will come out to the left and there is a thing that says active

speaker video view. If you select that, that will have the video full screen.

If you could just make sure you are in either of those views, you will be able to see the video or any slides okay. I will pass back to you, thank you.

John Swinney: Okay, thanks. I seem to have managed to change those settings so

on you go. Mairi.

Mairi MacInnes: Hello, Deputy First Minister. Thank you and it's – the internet is an amazing thing, particularly the further away from each other we are. Thank you indeed for the comments and I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you for the conversations you had with the communities in the Islands recently. Over these last few months, we have seen the value of the investment through the work the Bòrd has been doing itself, in partnership with the government and all the others that are particularly involved in the Faster Rate of Progress initiatives, but clearly more needs to be done and more

needs to be done quickly is the message that has been coming through to us.

I think it's timely for us to [import] the Gaelic because very soon we will be beginning to

prepare for the next National Gaelic Language Plan. This is a good opportunity for us

to discuss further and the work that has been happening – the essential research plus

the conversations and the many other consultations that are going on will provide good

food for thought and good opportunity to really address what is working well and what

needs to be improved in the vernacular communities. That's all I would like to say, and

my CEO Shona has a presentation for us. Thank you.

Shona MacLennan: [Spoken in a foreign language]. Good morning. The significance

of Gaelic was recognised at COHI last year when it was agreed that linguistic and

cultural heritage should be included as a…

John Swinney: I think we've lost Shona. Right, okay we'll – I'm going to leave Andrew

to try to liaise with Shona. Can I open up to – you've seen the paper. I think we are all

familiar with the – now, Shona's come back. Shona, are you with us?

Shona MacLennan: I am. I've got…

John Swinney: Yeah, great , Shona. On you go.

Shona MacLennan: I'm mindful of time. I wonder whether I've got a short paper which

summarises the main paper. Will I just pick a few key statistics…

John Swinney: Please do that, yeah.

Shona MacLennan: Okay, thank you very much. I think what we were saying is that

there are opportunities, there are challenges. The third National Gaelic Plan recognises

three overarching communities of Gaelic speakers. Those in the island and rural areas,

those in the towns and cities and the online community. A healthy community of

speakers in the traditional Gaelic speaking communities is essential in underpinning

growth in the language and without them, the Gaelic offering that Scotland gives the

world loses much of its authenticity and much of its cultural resonance.

Some key demonstrators of interest levels in Gaelic include, there are currently

495,000 people registered for learning Gaelic on Duolingo and this was, of course,

launched only 11 months ago. VisitScotland has done much work about Gaelic tourism.

They created our video, Scottish Gaelic Explained and that's had some 350,000 views

since its launch a year ago. Their stats also show that people who visit the Gaelic

content on their page, stay longer, return to their website, four out of five visitors are

from overseas and the viewers who look at that are also younger than average.

MG ALBA has developed international co-productions to the value of £8 million in the

last four years working with organisations in China, Canada and South Korea as well

as Northern Ireland, Ireland and Wales. Through these, the reach of Gaelic media is

winning international competitions and taking Gaelic stories to many millions of people

around the world. There's an interest in learning Gaelic and learning more about

Gaelic, experiencing Gaelic and buying products or services which feature Gaelic and

that is an economic opportunity particularly for the West Highlands and Islands.

We've seen successes in bilingualism and bilingual education leading in turn to a

higher skilled population. We've seen innovation through e-Sgoil delivering learning in a

variety of ways and also during lockdown and since, providing immersion activities for

Gaelic-medium pupils so that they can ensure increased usage of Gaelic at home.

Creating quality infrastructure – many of the community investments in the Western

Isles are linked to Gaelic language and culture whether it's land-based developments,

heritage and arts centres or partnerships like the £10 million project between Lews

Castle College and Ceòlas to create an education, music and language centre in South

Uist.

In Gaelic education, from early years to tertiary is growing, including both further and

higher education with increasing availability of certificated courses including vocational

training. As success breeds demand for more, so there are some gaps and there are

opportunities. Growth in Gaelic-medium education creating a demand for more

educators and for education support services. There is a gap between demand and

supply and a range of approaches are required to scale up including strengthening

confidence in skills in those who already speak Gaelic, increasing the routes to fluency

for adult learners and increasing the opportunities for young people to use their

language skills in a variety of situations.

In the video, you will see a short clip about apprenticeships where somebody is using their Gaelic and increasing their Gaelic skills as well as other professional skills to increase employability. Skills Development Scotland and local authorities are currently working to develop more apprenticeships with Gaelic skills. One of Gaelic culture's strengths has always been storytelling. In both the creative industry sector and in tourism, authentic individual stories have significant power to attract and engage.

In an increasingly globalised world and competitive marketplaces, the individual, the memorable and the unique offer experiences that stand out. The stories of both Harris Distillery and [unclear] in the short video demonstrate the innovation and resilience of island communities contributing to a modern way of life and the demand from audiences to learn and experience more about the local. The [Ardovan] Croft is a prime example of using traditional methods to inform and education island dwellers of the future.

Our paper, I think links back to building the green economy. Environment and language and culture both need investment if they are to offer the opportunities for growth. It looks forward to two of the papers this afternoon, population retention and fragile areas, because much of the Gaelic speaking population is located in those areas. Also, the paper on community wealth building, Gaelic is an asset that can be used in building the community's wealth.

In presenting this topic today, I would ask members to consider how Gaelic can be normalised in the agendas which COHI takes forward. The video you are about to see illustrates that our traditional islands communities maybe undervalued, and this presents both a challenge and an opportunity to us all. Bòrd na Gàidhlig hopes that this theme will be a fine focus as part of community wealth building and every other topic on COHI's agenda at our gathering. With that, I'll hand over and we'll have a short video.

[Video plays]

John Swinney: Okay, is that you Shona?

Shona MacLennan: Thank you, yes.

John Swinney: Grand, thank you. Okay, thank you for that and interesting material in

the film as well. Let's open it up, I've got Garry Coutts first of all and then I'll come to

Michael Foxley. Any other bids, please put them into the chat function. Garry.

Garry Coutts: Thanks, DFM. Long before I was involved with UHI in the governance

capacity, I was actually a student at UHI, and I had the pleasure of undertaking a

language element of the course with Sabhal Mòr and others. I think that what is really

fascinating is that what I was learning some 20 plus years ago about the fragility of

Gaelic and the way that Gaelic or any language that is facing decline can be reversed,

is as relevant today as it was then. I heard – was it Joshua Fishman, the world leading

linguist, talking about language death and about how you actually reverse it. He was

pointing out at that time, that you needed to make sure the most important element

about vernacular usage within the local communities were supported and sustained.

Taking people outwith our communities and trying to enforce language speaking

outwith these communities very often failed. If you put in the high level [procs] around it

– the education or about the other things that we can do visibly, if it didn't actually

improve intergenerational speaking of the language within the communities where it

was still strongest, then we would see it declining. I'm slightly surprised that the paper

we've got in front doesn't actually reference the [paper] that's just come out recently

about the crisis in vernacular Gaelic.

I think that what is really important is that we have a widespread conversation about what we can do as we come to develop the new Gaelic Language Plan and that we involve people from Sabhal Mòr, from the other colleges where there is Gaelic being taught and it is used. That we make sure that we have opportunities to expand and develop what is happening, but we've got to do more to engage with the communities that are actually using Gaelic and find out what is it that we can do – we've got to give away power to them about how Gaelic will develop within their communities.

What is it that is going to encourage just now, the young people who are learning Gaelic within Gaelic communities and Gaelic-speaking families who actually go home and speak English. What is it that we will actually be able to do to transfer that. The book that has been produced is the most detailed research into Scottish Gaelic for a long time. It's actually got a very dire warning for us. It's suggesting we've got 10 years to be able to reverse this decline and I would suggest that if we just try and do more of the same, or carry on with the same plans we've had in the past, we're likely to see the same results.

I think that we've got to add some real challenge to our thinking between now and the development of this new Gaelic Language Plan and really think about what is it that we are doing that will create that opportunity and real increase in vernacular usage in the areas that are strongest in Gaelic. I think that's something we've all got to commit to if we are going to make a meaningful Gaelic Language Plan.

John Swinney: Thanks very much Garry. Can I come to Michael Foxley and then I'll

come to Charlotte Wright.

Michael Foxley: Yeah, thanks DFM. Just very briefly because time is against us. We

have to recognise that the vernacular decline is directly linked to the fragile

communities that were described in that report so it will be picked up in the issues this

afternoon. Secondly, there is still a significant shortage of teachers for Gaelic-medium

education, both in terms of quantity and quality. Thirdly, we need widespread delivery

of courses. It's not just online, they need local support within learning centres. Fourthly,

linked really to what Garry has just said as well, is to really make a request that we have a Gaelic summit where all these issues can be given further consideration because the time is very limited today. Thank you very much.

John Swinney: Thanks Michael. I'll come to Charlotte and then Alistair Dodds.

Charlotte Wright: Thank you, I'll be brief too. Just to say that from Highlands and

Islands perspective, we think there really is an excellent opportunity to continue to work

with Bòrd na Gàidhlig on Gaelic as an asset across the economy. There is definitely

more that we can do with the business community there. Secondly, just to make a point

from the young people's research that we've been doing on a five-yearly basis across

the Highlands and Islands.

The last time we did it, it very clearly demonstrated that young people actually really

value their culture and heritage, particularly so in the Outer Hebrides so I do think for

our later paper, there is actually something that we can build on – the uniqueness and

importance of culture and heritage – for retaining our young people as well as attracting

others to the region.

John Swinney: Thanks Charlotte. Alistair Dodds is the last contributor I've got,

although I will take any other bids if there are any. Alistair.

Alistair Dodds: Thanks John. I think a point that Shona and Michael made is that

there's a significant number of papers today that could really contribute to the Gaelic

language and its expansion. I think one of the things Garry said, we've got to challenge

our thinking which is fine, but what are the specifics that we need to do. I think they are

– talking to Mairi recently, there's things or government initiatives coming out like the

Young Persons Guarantee. It's referred to in the video about apprenticeships, but it

could be far wider than that, so could we introduce a Gaelic element into that in the

areas where it is appropriate. I'm sure there's lots of good jobs, good apprenticeships

where it could be developed.

I think there is other things – specifics like housing. So not just about us thinking what

are the types of houses that people need, but perhaps going back to what Garry said,

talking to the local communities to see what's required. I think HIE have a big part to

play in this as well and speaking to [Marion], our Area Manager in the Western Isles

recently, one of the things which I don't think we do is when we're giving out grants or

loans is seek some commitment to Gaelic. Again, I think that could be quite helpful

whether it's just something as simple as labelling or signage, that we ask that to be part

of the grant giving conditions.

That's just a few things to throw in. I can assure you that we in HIE will do what we can to promote Gaelic and to try and address some the issues we've heard about today.

John Swinney: Okay, thanks very much Alistair. I'll come to Councillor Roddy

Mackay.

Roddy Mackay: Thank you John. Can I say first of all – are you getting an echo? No?

John Swinney: Getting a wee bit of an echo, Roddy, yeah. You just carry on.

Roddy: I just want to say first of all as a matter of record, to thank yourself for your

unswerving support for Gaelic and the work we're doing around Gaelic certainly in

Comhairle nan Eilean Siar. We're very pleased to reference the Outer Hebrides too as

a campaign which was referenced earlier and that's going to reflect changing attitudes

and the new positivity towards Gaelic. I think what's abundantly clear is something has

to change, something different has to happen, because what has been before isn't

working. When you get reports and stats about the fall off in people using the language,

it's obvious that we need to do something different and something radical.

I was interested in Garry's comments about the vernacular and about in the centres

where Gaelic is spoken. Of course, we would make a play, if we've got a healthy

economy in the Western Isles, then you've got people staying in the Western Isles. If

you've got adequate housing, then the heartland retains young people and Gaelic can

be spoken more at the core. There's an approach across a few sectors that needs to

be taken. I agree with the comments about population, which we'll talk about in the

afternoon and community wealth building and they are all inextricably linked to Gaelic.

I think we need to move away from purely focusing on teaching it in schools which we're doing really well, and purely the arts and heritage aspect and moving across to a broader socio-economic approach. I think it is time for a refresh. I don't know if that's – do you have a seminar or whatever, but it is a time for a refresh and a new attitude. The potential is obvious. The reason for preserving it and growing it – these reasons are obvious, so we need to do something different.

John Swinney: Thanks Roddy. Any other contributors before I draw things to a close.

Mairi, Shona, would you like to add anything else.

Shona MacLennan: Just to thank everybody for their contributions. I'm very glad that

people see that it resonates across the different themes in COHI because I think that's

what would really make a difference. If each time we were looking at a topic, it was,

and what does this mean for Gaelic.

John Swinney: Thanks very much, Shona. I think that there's two points I would draw

out of the discussion and a lot of helpful comments and contributions have been made.

The first is that point that Shona's just highlighted that it's absolutely clear that this is

not – the future of the Gaelic language is not some compartmentalised issue,

compartmentalised simply in a Gaelic bubble. It is related to economic opportunity, it's

related to population levels, it's related to housing, it's related to access to education,

it's related to employment opportunities.

I think some of the interesting work that the Comhairle nan Eilean Siar has been able to take forward in relation to Gaelic First as an education policy, some of the packages that are available for apprenticeships and housing within the Western Isles are all – I think, illustrate the fact that the support of the language requires solutions outwith individual compartments. I think that's a point that we need to reflect on very closely. Secondly, is that I think we are identifying real challenges about the vernacular community and I think we have to recognise that the current range of welcome approaches that we have in place, are not making enough of an impact on those questions and those elements and they will need to do so.

There's a particular challenge to look at the support for vernacular use of the language and that has to be a crucial part of their thinking. Those are the two observations on the substance of the conversation. I suppose the final point I would make, is about engagement and dialogue. In this respect, I am – as I said in my opening remarks, I've had a couple of discussions with a range of community representatives following on the UHI research report. We need to carry on that dialogue, and we need draw people together into some common thinking about how we might take forward an agenda that addresses these points.

Whether that's a summit or whatever forum we need to do that, I'm certainly keen to enlist all people and organisations who have got a contribution to make to this debate to do exactly that and to draw that work together. I'll think carefully about how we can best do that. Okay, well thank you all very much for those contributions. That brings our morning session to a close. As I said earlier on, I'm going to have to participate in some local authority discussions in relation to COVID which will prevent me from reconvening business just after – we'll actually reconvene at 12:45. We'll take a break for half an hour.

If I could ask for Fiona Hyslop to open up the second session and then Paul Wheelhouse to take over and I should be able to join again by about 1:45 I would think. If I could leave it to my colleagues to take forward the sessions from 12:45 onwards. If people could stay connected, just go onto mute and to stop video, and return at 12:45. Thank you very much.

[Meeting Break]

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, everybody. I think we are reconvened for this afternoon' session.

Can I just check that everybody is hearing me loud and clear. Andrew, can you just let

me know that we're back on and we're live, assuming that we are. Okey doke, I'm not

hearing anybody.

Fiona Hyslop: That's great, okay. Welcome back everybody. I appreciate the moving

developments of COVID, and the Strategic Framework today means that the DFM has

had to slip out for a very important meeting with local authority leads. I want to

introduce this section of the agenda, a really important one. You know of my personal

commitment. Indeed, in my previous role as Culture Secretary with the responsibility for

the National Records of Scotland, led the government's activity in this area and our

taskforce which is cross-ministerial, but we've engaged with many of you in this work

and it is absolutely of critical importance to the Highlands and Islands so I'm very

pleased that you have put this on the agenda to continue our work on.

Clearly, everybody here recognises the rural and islands population challenge. It's

wide-ranging. There is no remarkable silver bullet that will resolve these issues, but it is

cross-policy, it's cross-sectoral and inter-agency work can help tackle help. I think that

focus that you've brought, and we've brought collectively through the Convention will

help us drive forward in some of these areas. The demographic challenges in the

Highlands and Islands paper produced by Argyll and Bute, Western Isles and Highland

Councils along with Highlands and Islands Enterprise is a positive example of how

working together, we can help to provide a more robust approach.

Thank you for everybody who have involved in contributing to the paper. I'm very keen

to further develop this collaborative response and certainly I'm very keen to learn from

you, particularly with things that you think can make an active intervention so that we

can ensure that we have robust – and it comes back, that word again – resilient

communities, sustainable for work-age families, that we can look after our elderly well

and that we have an opportunity for our young people and children to grow up in the

Highlands and Islands.

This is such a key part of our policy development and whatever the immediate crisis

that we're facing, we can't lose sight of work in this area. I'm keen now to hand over

Calum Iain MacIver who will give you an overview of the paper, so Calum, can I bring

you in. Is he there?

Calum Iain MacIver: He is yes, thanks Cabinet Secretary. There is a number of slides

and if Andrew is able to put up these slides, that will be very useful. Moving onto the

first slide, which begins with acknowledging that there is a positive story at regional

level in the Highlands and Islands around population growth. Between the last two

census periods, we have seen growth of 7.5 per cent. The last mid-year estimates

place the population at just under half a million – 489,000 which is a significant

increase of 13 per cent since 2001.

We've seen relative stability over the last period – 2001 to 2018 an increase of half a

percent. I suppose all that is positive, it could be viewed as underperformance

compared to Scotland which has seen a 2.6 per cent national increase. Even bearing

that in mind, I think given the preceding historical situation, I think what has been

achieved over the past period in the Highlands and Islands around population is a

success story. Next slide please.

That positive story does hide a much more nuanced picture at sub-regional level and

there has been significantly decline between 2011 and '18 in the more fragile areas.

Projections do show that decline continuing and continuing significantly in the more

fragile areas. That roles into demographics where the age structures in places like

Argyll and Bute and the Outer Hebrides, 25 per cent of the population will be in the

over 65 plus category. We're seeing decline in working age and the under 16

populations and dependency ratios are projected to increase quite significantly in some

of those fragile areas. As we know, remote areas are more likely to experience

population decline that urban areas. As we also know, large urban areas act as a

magnet for population. Next slide please.

These figures are quite small. You're probably not able to see them very well on

screen, but they are in the paper. These show the areas in the Highlands and Islands –

the subregional areas and that movements of population has been happening over the

past period highlighting in red on the far-right column where we've been change over

2011 to 2018. I don't think there's any surprises for anybody in there, but a reminder of

the figures and of the position we are in today. Next slide please.

Perhaps more importantly. This slide shows the projections out to 2041 and as you can

see, in these projections there are significant declines anticipated in particular areas –

the Outer Hebrides, Argyll and Bute, and subareas with Highland, Sutherland and

Caithness in particular. Areas there facing double digit declines over the next couple of

decades. Next slide please. As we know and we discussed earlier today, the COVID-

19 pandemic and the imminent Brexit will also have an impact on population.

As was discussed earlier, the Highlands and Islands are perhaps disproportionately impacted by COVID-19. We'll take longer to recover and face substantial economic scarring. GDP estimated to compact, and we do have a higher share of employment in sectors that are most exposed to COVID. Unemployment has risen significantly in the region over the last period, and as Charlotte mentioned earlier, youth employment in particular has grown quite significantly.

We are also highly vulnerable to Brexit. Five of the six most vulnerable local authority areas in Scotland to Brexit, are in the Highlands and Islands. Taking these two things together, COVID-19 and Brexit, they are likely to further exacerbate declining population trends. Next slide please. Just trying to bring some conclusion to that range of statistics. There are significant populations across Scotland and across the Highlands and Islands. These challenges are particularly acute and severe across Argyll and Bute, the Outer Hebrides, Caithness and Sutherland.

The strategy that has been in place at a pan-Highlands and Islands level over the period has proven highly effective as can be evidenced by the overall increase of population across the Highlands and Islands. Unfortunately, that strategy isn't having the same impact in the peripheral areas. We're coming to the conclusion that additional policy responses are required in these localities. These responses should be built on initiatives already making an impact and we think there are opportunities for additional tailored and focused approaches, particularly around capital and human resources, policy and legislation and talent attraction.

Obviously, important I think, that any new policy responses are coordinated with the population and migration ministerial task force. Next slide please. Finally, the paper concludes that there is probably – given the acuteness of the issues in relation to population decline in the areas I particularly mentioned – the areas with double digit projected declines over the next period. Argyll and Bute, Outer Hebrides, Caithness and Sutherland.

There is a requirement for a more targeted interagency policy response. This response could potentially include the establishment of a subregional population response team and outlining some of the goals there for that team or bringing together a repopulation plan including consideration of whether there is merit in the establishment of a West Coast Innovation Zone as well as other forms of policy intervention. That is a very quick overview of the pertinent paper, Cabinet Secretary, so happy to close there and to open it out to discussion.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks very much for that. Open for contributions. Again, remind

people if you are not contributing, if you can go on mute and come off your video. If

anybody wants to come in, if we can again use the chat bar. It means that I can know

who should come in. It's a bit quiet just now, so…

Fiona Hyslop: Alex Gallagher, can you come in then and then I'll come – I've got John

Kemp as well. Okay, Alex.

Alex Gallagher: I think it's right that I get in first anyway because I'm basically going to

say a thing that I always say. I've looked at your statistics and Arran in particular maybe

covered by some of the Argyll and Bute, but it's not clear that the Clyde Inner Islands

are included in these statistics. However, we did our Fraser of Allander report which I

mentioned earlier and that showed us that since the turn of this century – that's only 20

years – the population of Arran has fallen by about 10 per cent and we are losing a

large proportion of working age population. We have a housing problem, so what I

would say is – and that's projected to continue.

What I would say is, yes I see the initiatives that are being suggested. I would ask that if there's any projects or pilots that are being proposed, then I would suggest that Arran be considered with that overall activity. I don't know about Cumbrae. My own feeling is that Cumbrae isn't suffering as bad, but we haven't done the study on there yet.

Fiona Hyslop: Calum Iain, can you maybe just answer that question about the paper,

to what extent it does [inaudible] the islands in particular. I think, what the point's made

in the paper is clearly we're quite aware of the council by council, but the point that

you're making is a lot of the impact in more fragile areas even within those council

areas and therefore the tailoring of policy. Can't we just broad-brush. It might have to

be very micro-targeting as well. Do you want to come in one that before I move to

John.

Calum Iain MacIver I think that's right, Cabinet Secretary. I think we do have to look

down at very specific subregional areas and find policy interventions that work at these

sub regional areas. Community wealth building, the next item on the agenda, maybe

begins to capture some of these opportunities at that micro-level and subregional area,

but certainly your – the areas we've identified are the really fragile areas where the

impacts are very severe and the paper will capture Arran within that, although it's

obviously hidden within the overall Argyll and Bute overview.

Alex Gallagher: Can I just add that I made a comment earlier about an Island

Infrastructure Fund. I think this is one area where such a fund could play quite a key

role.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks Alex. I was about to say that North Ayrshire obviously

has been leading a lot of the community wealth building, but obviously how it applies to

islands is going to be of interest. John Kemp and then Andrew Campbell and then Paul

is going to come – oh, Paul is going to come in on Alex's point. I'll let John come in first,

if that's okay. John.

John Kemp: Yep, I just wanted to comment briefly on the idea that one size doesn't fit

all for the Highlands and Islands. While UHI serves the whole of the region, we do

recognise that there is a different approach required in different subregions within the

region. Recently, we have developed an island strategy working very closely with the

three island local authorities so that we can better serve those areas, but even beyond

that, I think we recognise that there are many areas covered in this paper that aren't

covered by our island strategy that we do need to drill down quite deeply to understand

the needs of each area and serve those areas in different ways. We are beginning to

do that, building on the island strategy, but also looking at what we can do for other

areas.

We've had within the university, an aspiration to grow the provision in the more

peripheral areas for quite some years and that has worked in the West Highlands and

in Argyll, but less so in the islands, so that's something I think we do recognise we

need to rebalance and something we are looking forward to working with local

authorities to rebalance over the next few years.

Fiona Hyslop: Okay, thanks John. Can I bring in Andrew Campbell and then Paul, if

you can address Alex's point after that.

Andrew Campbell: Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. There's maybe a wee silver lining in

the COVID cloud. Here in the northside of Loch Etive in the fragile part of Argyll, we

have a welcomed home our daughter who previously was employed working for an

internationally renowned university in London dealing with international business. She's

brought back a London salary from Peckham which is great to have here and there's

maybe scope for more of that because the other thing we had to do to make her job

feasible here was to improve our internet connections. We've left behind BT's dribble of

two megabytes if it was on a good day and changed over to mobile broadband which is

producing 30 to 60 megabytes.

There are things that we can do here, and I think we should be trying to encourage more people to escape the deep south and return from whence they came. Thank you.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks Andrew. Paul.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks Fiona. Sorry for any problems earlier on. I'm just trying to

get my video to start – we're almost there. Yeah, I was just going to come back on Alex

Gallagher's point. It's a fair one around funding. As you know Fiona, it's probably

something that maybe has not been that well publicised but out of the infrastructure

plan that Michael Matheson has just announced, there's £30 million that's been set

aside for supporting infrastructure and greener economy priorities across the islands

which is a big commitment from us.

Obviously, we want to work with stakeholders to make sure that it has the maximum impact, but clearly there's room for that sort of infrastructure call that Alex is making there to address through to that funding and other means as well as the Isles deals themselves.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks Paul. Alastair Cooper and then I'll come to Robin Currie.

Alastair Cooper: Hello, thanks Cabinet Secretary. I'm picking up on Alex Gallagher's

point. In the case of Shetland, we have the second highest net civilian migration in the

Highlands and Islands and also when it comes to Brexit, we're 50 per cent of the

Shetland community is vulnerable to the Brexit effect. Whilst I'm very supportive of the

paper and the needs for the areas in focus, I think that we should agree, making the

point that whatever is learned in these areas, should be capable of being replicated in

the other island areas.

Fiona Hyslop: I think that is critical. I think that's very good advice, thanks Alistair.

Robin Currie.

Robin Currie: Yeah, thank very much Cabinet Secretary. I truly believe there's a great

urgency with this issue because it's getting worse. I'm not disagreeing with what

Andrew Campbell said, but what he mentioned about people coming from south or

wherever to the Highlands and Islands and particularly the islands where I'm from, is

causing a huge problem regarding housing and now young people and just ordinary

workers simply cannot afford to buy housing. Just outstripped every time, so that in

itself is an issue.

The bigger picture is I think we need to set up a group as quickly as possible because it is urgent. When you have places – and I can think of an island just close by here, I think, people between the age 16 and 30, there's about one person. You've got to bring in even social workers and social care people and all the rest of it. That's not sustainable. I really think we need to have an enterprise or an enterprise zone or an innovation zone for the counties that are suffering the population loss.

It goes on to the future education and the further education and higher education. I believe in Argyll and Bute, it's underfunded, and the opportunities aren't there like they have in the likes of Inverness et cetera. There's a great urgency, and I think we need to set up a group as quickly as possible.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks, Robin. I'm going to come Chris Brodie, and then I'll come back

to Calum Iain, if he wants to respond before I close the session. Chris.

Chris Brodie: Thank you Cabinet Secretary and thank you Calum Iain for the

presentation. I'd probably just want to emphasise three points I made about 12 months

ago, when we presented on the population challenge in the region. The population

challenge is nuanced. The challenge has been that most of the population growth has

been in over 65s. We know that we've slowed the out migration of young people, but it

still continues. The critical challenge is one of attracting working age families into the

region. Really, Andrew Campbell stole the point I was going to make. I think while

COVID absolutely presents a threat to the region's resilience, it does present an

opportunity in that what this has proved is that we can work from anywhere. I think we

really do need a concerted effort to attract working age families into the region to settle

down, whether that's bringing people from the rest of Scotland. The final point I would

make is the work we've been doing with colleagues in Western Isles Council around

providing an integrated offer around work-based learning and housing. That has proved

really powerful in terms of providing a really clear lever for anchoring young people on

the islands.

Fiona Hyslop: Thanks Chris. Calum Iain, do you want to respond to what you've

heard.

Calum Iain MacaIver: Yes, thank you Cabinet Secretary. Yeah, I think we're all in

agreement that there are significant population issues across the Highlands and

Islands, but there are particular areas where the challenge is really acute. I think I'm

picking up the feeling, right we had to move with a reasonable degree of urgency to set

up some form of working group to begin to explore exactly what the issues are in these

communities and how we bring in new policy interventions to try and identify that. I

think it's critical that any work that is done there, has to have replication in it. That it can

go out to other areas and be modelled out so that other areas can benefit from the

work that is done there.

I think micro, very small-scale, very community based solutions has to be part of that, but I think we can find, even with the areas of acute challenge, communities that are being successful so it is how we [gross] up these successful communities so the success that they are having is replicated out within the wider island communities and within the wider fragile areas. I think there are opportunities to bring in the new populations, but we have to be very careful how we do that.

I think the challenge of accelerating housing costs has been noted in the Outer Hebrides and I'm sure across other parts of the Highlands and Islands since the COVID pandemic started and we're seeing property on the market at the moment, but there will be very few ordinary people in the Western Isles, never mind young people, who would be able to compete in that particular market. Affordable housing has to be part of the overall solution as well.

Fiona Hyslop: That's obviously [inaudible] short, sharp session. Go on mute or off

video if you're not contributing. I'm very passionate about this. I do not see how we can

economically thrive unless we have the opportunity to have sustainable populations

right across Scotland. There's growing evidence that the age distribution is great, and

people are living longer, but we've got to have working age families in these

communities that are facing the challenges. I hear the request for inter-personal

working particularly and I think that – taking good examples, I know the Western Isles

has worked very strongly with young people about apprenticeships within the council et

cetera.

I'm very clear that if we're facing these levels of youth unemployment we are anticipating, the Young Persons Guarantee has to be baked into this because we want our young people to be able to be able to stay in the communities that they were brought up in and to contribute with families themselves. There is the, I suppose, double-edged sword of the opportunities of remote working and it's become the norm now and I appreciate that. We're launching the inward investment plan this week and [I'm the key minister] there – is highlighting the moving to Scotland resource that we have.

We want talent, we want people with good wages coming into the communities, but the issue around housing was always clear, but is now exacerbated by some of the here. At the ministerial level, I've asked Kevin Stewart the housing minister and Ben Macpherson the finance minister to think through creatively as to what could be done to ensure we can have the growth, but also to make sure there might be policy levers. I note the three points in the paper about what we might be able to work on in that area. I think that's exactly the sort of thing a group could be working as to how – what would it mean and what would it look like to try and help people in those fragile communities.

Let's keep sight of this. It's critically important to our economic wellbeing as a country and you've my commitment as the Economy Secretary that in continuing to chair [unclear] task force we will be as responsive and engaged as we can be. I know my officials have done a lot of work and indeed a lot of great actions are already happening, but we've got to pursue it at pace and we've got to pursue it, I think, at lots of different levels – micro levels and different other areas.

Every single part of government – certainly at national government of Scotland, but also I think at every different department within councils and our agencies and of course as John has set out, our University of the Highlands and Islands, I think, could be really critical and has been in rejuvenating different communities so let's try and continue to work on that and look forward to engaging with you further on this issue. I'm sure it will remain a key agenda point for the Convention of the Highlands and Islands.

With that, I'm now – I've also got to afraid slip out for a COVID related session just now and I will try and come back in and possibly I will. Paul Wheelhouse, can I hand over to you for the next agenda item, if that's okay Paul.

Paul Wheelhouse: Of course, thank Fiona and thanks for handing on so swiftly. I'm

delighted to be introducing the next agenda item on community wealth building as we

had an excellent discussion on this theme, as John Swinney outlined earlier on, in the

Convention of the South of Scotland. Given Shona's point earlier on regarding Gaelic

as an asset, it's already stimulating interest today and Calum Iain has just mentioned it

as well.

In short, this is a concept – community wealth building – that has been growing in popularity across the country because it challenges us to look at how we are using existing investment by anchor organisations across the public, third and private sectors to utilise their assets and spending power through procurement, as Fiona was saying earlier, to support our local communities, local businesses and also to reduce economic leakages from the economies as well. That's the main thrust of what we are trying to do.

There's already community wealth building activity taking place across the Highlands and Islands and the Western Islands has been identified as one of the five areas that the Scottish Government would like to work with and learn from with a view to then rolling out successful approaches that are developed across other areas of the country. We'll hear today from Neil McInroy, who is the chief executive of Centre for Local Energy Strategies and as of July of this year, is a part-time secondee to the Scottish Government. Neil has worked with a number of UK and international partners to advance community wealth building and we are pleased to be able to draw from his experience of Scotland.

Following Neil's input, we'll then hear from Julie McLachan who is a director at CEIS Ayrshire and senior manager of economic policy at North Ayrshire Council, on the ideas and development of community wealth building approach in North Ayrshire as part of the ongoing Ayrshire Growth Deal. North Ayrshire's experience was of great interest to colleagues in the parallel presentation in South of Scotland.

We'll then before hearing from you all online, hear from Calum Iain MacIver, who we've just heard from in the previous session, who is obviously well known to us all in his role as director for communities within the Comhairle nan Eilean Siar on early ideas for growing the community wealth building approach and generating a positive impact over int eh Outer Hebrides. A welcome to all our speakers and I will now hand over to Neil to take us off, but then we will move onto my colleagues. Over to you Neil.

Neil McInroy: Okay, thank you Mr Wheelhouse and if Andrew could put the slides up.

Thank you Andrew. I'm delighted to be speaking with you this afternoon. Scotland is

the first national government to take forward community wealth building. It's a global

movement and even recent conversations I've had with Canada, France and New

Zealand, I think, is testament to that. I think it's been gaining in interest partly because

of the changing economic and social geography that the pandemic is bringing to us and

it seems a way of responding to that as well as some of the maybe longstanding issues

we have had with our economy.

As Mr Wheelhouse says, I'm part-time seconded to the Scottish Government since July and it's been delighted to come and work with the Scottish Government and my colleagues there who have been very supportive and helpful in bringing this agenda forward so thank you to them. Also, as Mr Wheelhouse said, we join today with Julie MacLachlan and Calum Iain MacIver who'll speak after I've spoken. Basically, I'm going to give a little bit of introduction to what community wealth building is and what the ideas are behind it. Next slide please, Andrew.

Just in terms of what we're doing in the Scottish Government, the Scottish Government has given assistance to roll out community wealth building in five areas – Clackmannanshire, South of Scotland, Tay Cities, Glasgow City region and Western Isles, and you'll hear from Calum Iain later on. Clearly in the Western Isles, it's about amplifying and deepening some of the good stuff that's already happening there. We aim to produce action plans and that is very much a snowballing technique to plan, action, do, clear outcomes; learn, show and repeat. It's not a big fancy strategy if you like, it's much more light on its feet and nimble, seeking to get quick actions and quick early wins.

Also, we've been involved in coordinating community wealth building links across other Scottish Government policy areas. I'm in the Economic Development Directorate, but how it links to other areas like housing or health and so on. Also, liaising and [unclear] with other public, private and community stake holders including COSLA and the voluntary community sector and also feeds into this recovery and reform of Scotland because of the pandemic. Next one please Andrew.

Why community wealth building. Well, I think it's seen as a practical means – it is very practical – to deliver on wellbeing, economy and exclusive economic growth. It's about the long-term just and sustainable economy and thinking about the transition, think about resilience and hot wiring that into a local economic activity. Next one please Andrew. What is it. Well, community wealth building is a people and community centred approach to local economic development which looks to make the local economic system and flow of wealth more socially and ecologically beneficial to local communities.

In essence, it's a maturing if not a slight disruption of traditional economic development with a focus hot wiring those into how economy works and who actually benefits. Now, of course, we have, and we will continue to have a focus on redistribution of wealth after the wealth is created. What community wealth building hones in on is very much the pre-distribution during and before the wealth is created so it's about place, it's about making sure as the economy works, as the economy starts to move, it is socially and economically, environmentally and culturally woven in as benefit to local communities.

Now, as I've heard this morning, it's clearly important – understand the vernacular, Gaelic language and identity and key to population changes too. It's important we think about these things as we think about how the economy actually functions. In that, ownership matters a hell of a lot to increase local and locally owned enterprises creating clusters, shortening supply chains. Now, this is very much about an economy that is relational to place, not just a transaction in place. It's trying to deepen its roots and its relationship to the actual place that the economy is functioning within. Next one please, Andrew.

In simple terms, community wealth building is about economic plumbing. Wealth – if you think about wealth – is a defining feature of all economies. Who has it, where does it go. Think about wealth and economy as flows of money. Enhance the circular nature of the economy. Now the determinants of poverty, ill health, individual and community resilience all reaches back to the economy so in terms of leaks how much of the economy and people receiving the fruits of the economy. Who are getting the jobs, who owns the businesses, how do your communities' benefit, who are the shareholders. Is the money we spend and the growth that created extracted away or is it sticking within our communities.

Now, community wealth building seeks to plug those leaks and make sure it does flow as virtually as possible back into our communities. It includes things like fair work, good jobs for local people, businesses which we own, profits and services that we all receive. How does it land, in terms of that flow of wealth and money. Community owned businesses, medium sized businesses, SMEs are more likely to employ local people themselves and also have more local suppliers themselves too so there is a multiplier effect of thinking about that ownership and where it actually lands.

We know that in the Highlands and Islands, there is 24,000 private businesses, many of those micro-enterprises. How do we make sure that wealth truly flows within and around those micro-enterprises creating a deep ecosystem. Next one please, Andrew. As Mr Wheelhouse alluded to, anchoring organisations are very important. How they operate does affect our economy, these larger organisations. Who do they employ, who do they purchase goods and services from, what land and property do they own and how is that used.

That public sector anchor obviously is very important in terms of the flows of their money as well as the large private sector businesses too. It is important that we think collectively about the role that those large institutions can play including local authorities. Next one please Andrew. Within community wealth building, we split it up into five different pillars of action in the action plans. The first one is around finance, looking to increase flows of investment within local economies by harnessing and recirculating the wealth that exists.

It's about growth in the Island Deals and the Growth Deals, about contracts and construction. It's also about credit unions, community shares, making sure that the financial ecosystem truly benefits local communities, and they max on those local multipliers for the finance that we spend and the finance that flows around a locality. The second one is about land and property. It's about developing the function and ownership of local assert held by anchor institutions so local communities benefit more financially and socially from that land and property asset.

Community ownership is a huge, important facet to that as is natural capital and how we realise the wider value that that can bring to communities. The third area is around spending and [unclear] procurement. This is about developing chains of enterprises likely to support local employment and wider social and ecological aims in terms of the wider community benefits that we can accrue from public sector procurement. The fourth area is workforce, fair employment and just labour markets using anchor institutions to improve the prospects of local employment. Again, real living wage, fair work and so on.

Finally, and probably most importantly that adds up to this building the generative economy – the ownership of the local economy. Supporting and growing business models that are generative to the local economy, producing of things and wealth which is close to people and our communities. That's a bit of a canter through the broad ideas on the paper 5 as regards community wealth building. I'll now pass you onto Julie MacLachlan from North Ayrshire Council, who'll explain what they've been doing in North Ayrshire, I think, for about the last 18 months on community wealth building. Julie.

Julie McLachlan: Great, okay. Thanks very much. Thanks for that introduction Neil

and Mr Wheelhouse. Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you today about our

community wealth building journey in North Ayrshire. If you could just go to the next

slide please, Andrew. For us, we've been working on community wealth building for a

few years now and it's really about a new economic model which is focused on

enhancing inclusion and wellbeing. Community wealth building was at the heart of our

Council plan when we refreshed it in 2019.

We've worked alongside Neil and his colleagues at CLES to undertake a local wealth building diagnostic for North Ayrshire which really sets out are the steps that we could take to become a community wealth building council and place community wealth building at the forefront of everything that we do as a council. I think it is no secret that North Ayrshire has struggled in economic terms. To do with our islands, there are issues of resilience, of population as well, so really for us it's about taking a new approach to how we do economic development.

We established our community wealth building commission in 2019 and this brings together the key anchor organisations in the region and we started off with community planning partners, so it includes the health board, Fire and Rescue, Scottish Enterprise, our sector interface in North Ayrshire and we've recently extended that to include the other two Ayrshire councils as well so we're now taking a regional approach. It's really about trying to embed community wealth building within the council, but also within wider regional anchor institutions as well.

We've undertaken engagement across each of our six localities in North Ayrshire and through the council internally as well. Here, you can see our community wealth building mission which we have set out around enhancing local wealth, creating jobs, but most importantly fair jobs and maximising the potential of all of our places. I think the last part of that mission is really key. That's about working in partnership with our communities and businesses because it won't just be the council that delivers community wealth building, this is about taking a truly collaborative place-based approach. Next slide please.

When we launched our strategy in May – Scotland's first community wealth building strategy – we set out 55 actions for how we will achieve community wealth building. You can see on the slide here, the six high level community wealth building objectives that we have set out. First of those is about becoming a community wealth building council so ensuring that everyone working in the organisation understands what their role is in delivering community wealth building and using the levers that we have as a council, whether that is through buying goods and services, employing staff, dealing with our land and assets to be able to support our local economy and working across a range of partners at a local and regional level as well.

Procurement – so we want to use our spends to actively encouraging a growing and resilient local business base and importantly as well, how can we use this as a means to achieve net-zero through shortening supply chains as well. The environment is a key theme which runs our community wealth building strategy. Fair employment – so here we set out actions for how we will support fair work. How we will support wider [ranking] institutions to embed fair work. How we will look at our employability themes helping those, for example, with health barriers into work and unlock the potential with all our communities within North Ayrshire.

Land and assets – we're committed to reviewing our land and assets as a council and explore how the support the wider regeneration of North Ayrshire as a region including through alternative uses such as community ownership, such as using the land assets that we have to help tackle climate change. Financial power – so we're committed to investing locally, but also how do we encourage others to invest locally. How do we encourage things like keeping it local, shop local and looking at longer term progressive finance initiatives such as increasing credit union membership or exploring the feasibility of a community bank.

Finally, as Neil has spoken about, clearer ownership of the economy. How do we ensure that our business base, how do we get support more inclusive business models such as SMEs, social enterprises, cooperatives and community ownership as well. Also, looking at municipalisation, so how we support municipal ownership and public ownership too. Next slide please. I'll just give a brief example of community wealth building in practice. Our strategy includes six case studies of how we are delivering this in North Ayrshire with some more recent ones that we have developed through the pandemic being shared with our commission as well.

One I just wanted to highlight was our foods scheme on the Isle of Arran where we worked in partnership across the council's business development team, with our procurement department, with Food for Life Scotland and a local social enterprise Woodside, to deliver fresh vegetables to school meals on Arran, so a range of benefits there, the creation of a shorter supply chain, the creation of fair jobs and also a positive environmental impact and ensuring that they have a productive use of land and assets on the island as well. Next slide please Andrew.

One of the key actions within our strategy was to develop an anchor charter for Ayrshire so we'd launched that earlier in October as part of Challenge Poverty Week and this is a charter which sets to commit anchor institutions in the region to community wealth building principles. You can see the front of the charter here, but below that there is around 15 pledges that we ask anchor organisations in the region to commit to, so we're taking a long term collaborative approach and a place-based approach to embedding the principles of community wealth building in Ayrshire.

We are delighted that the three Ayrshire councils have signed up to this as well as NHS Ayrshire and Arran and Scottish Enterprise and Ayrshire College as well. Some of the key anchor institutions in the region have committed to taking this approach and we look forward to discussing it with others as well. You can see a link there to the full version of the anchor charter and I'll pop that the chat function too. Next slide please Andrew.

I just wanted to end on some of the things that we're working on to embed this approach and then maybe I'll touch just very briefly on some of the key lessons from our journey. We've taken on nine new roles to deliver community wealth building, to work within our localities to support businesses and communities to develop this approach and embed their community wealth building ambitions as well. We're moving to that more locality approach. As part of our economic recovery and renewal, we've launched a Green New Deal in North Ayrshire which brings together the priorities of community wealth building and a just transition to net-zero.

As I've mentioned, we've got the anchor charter there which was recently launched as well. We've established our community wealth building expert advisory panel to challenge us on our journey and the delivery of our ambitions. That's chaired by the Wellbeing Economy Alliance Scotland – Sarah Deas – and includes a range of people who have participated in various community wealth building initiatives nationally and internationally to ensure that we are following best practice and delivering an ambitious approach.

Finally, the Ayrshire Growth Deal – Mr Wheelhouse mentioned the £3 million funding that's been committed to a community wealth building fund for Ayrshire. We've submitted a business case on that to the Scottish Government and hope to start that project next year as well. That brings additional resource in to embed community wealth building in Ayrshire particularly on areas of fair work and [real] ownership too. Just onto the last slide please Andrew.

I'm happy to pick this up further as part of the questions, because I know we're short on time, but I just wanted to highlight a few lessons from our journey. I think it's really important that you engage with a range of partners so they can understand the role and economic levers that they have to deliver community wealth building. This isn't just about procurement or economic development, it's about across silos to embed a new economic approach. I'll stop there and I'll pass on to Calum Iain because I know that we're short on time. Thank you.

Calum Iain MacIver: Thanks for that Julie. Moving onto the next slide, Andrew – and

the next slide again. What I would like to do is just do a quick snapshot of a couple of

communities in the Outer Hebrides who've done some interesting work on community

wealth building, although they wouldn't have described it in these terms. West Harris

Trust, a community land body who purchased their estate from the Scottish

Government in 2010. They immediately moved to make affordable house boats

available to the community and to young people in the community. They've built six

affordable homes for rent and they are currently working with a registered social

landlord to build a further four properties for shared equity.

A multi-functional community enterprise centre – Talla na Mara – has been built. Within that there are a serious of workshops and light industrial units which they have created, all of which are fully occupied. They have built three wind turbines and a hydro project, all of which generate income for the community that is circulated within that community. Just relating to the discussion we had earlier about population and how population can be turned around at the micro level, their population since the buyout has increased from 119 to 151 last year.

Pre-school children are from one to seven, which are small numbers, but in a community such as this, they are absolutely critical numbers. The number of under 18s again has grown and is now standing at 22. Next slide please. Another community have gone about it in a different way – Tolastadh bho Thuath, North Tolsta. They set up a community development company in 2005 which set up a community development plan. Part of that was to build their own renewable energy project, set up Tolsta Power in 2007 and that now owns and operates a 900-kilowatt wind turbine.

The community bought – its own vegetables go straight to the shop and they are sold at cost to the local community. Fuel poverty is a big issue in the community. They were keen to move to a series of fuel poverty interventions so every household in the township has been provided with a set of energy packs and energy measurement units. They also wanted to help everybody in the village with their actual energy costs. They weren't actually able to do that so what they do is they provide each household on an annual basis with a voucher for £350 to help them with household costs throughout the year as a proxy for energy costs.

They also do a housing scheme where they help particularly vulnerable and elderly with housing repairs. That is done with contractors within the village. They also do a range of charitable works from providing every student in the community with £1000 bursary every year and helping young people with six driving lessons when they begin to drive. That's just a flavour of some of the community based charitable works that they do as well. Next slide.

These are examples of two communities who do something – have done and achieved something quite interesting and valuable in their own communities. Exemplars do exist, but what we need to do is gross these exemplars up from that small-scale micro community level up to a more district level, up to a more island level. The COVID-19 recovery started to [unclear] on Highlands and Islands Enterprise have developed for the Outer Hebrides very much talks about these aspects of community wealth building and how we develop a place and the impacts of place.

The Programme for Government, the community wealth building project in the Outer Hebrides are very much welcomed, but we hope to do with that project is to build a bit of greater structure around what's already happening to boost our pre-existing efforts and to accelerate and deepen progress. Some of the things that we're talking about, we've had some good discussions with Neil and other colleagues at the Scottish Government is products and produce created closer to the point of consumption so we see in the community land sector real opportunities to create more food produce in particular at the local level.

We see that integration with the local supply chain being important and that we did see some of our supply chains really creak at the beginning of the pandemic. We're keen to ensure that each community and each island group has the resilience and capacity and the strength in their supply chains going forward. We do see in the construction sector, opportunities to build the construction sector back up in each island area. In some of the island areas, the construction sector has slowly disappeared. I think it is important that we build that sector back up in each of the island areas and the way we do that is possibly through procurement and a more thoughtful approach to procurement.

There are real opportunities around housing. How we approach new approaches to housing and again using alternative procurement routes. We do see in the most recent Planning Act, local placed funds do offer an opportunity to think differently around place and begin to explore how we could plan into each community that help communities themselves think better about wealth and how wealth is retained within their communities. That's a very quick snapshot of a couple of areas that are working and some of the next steps we want to take with the wealth building programme in the Outer Hebrides. Happy to leave it at that.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thank you very much Calum Iain and thank you also to Neil and

Julie. We are pretty tight for time, but maybe if we can just take five minutes or so just

to get some initial feedback. I would encourage [unclear] to look at the chat room.

There's some really useful points being made already by Angus Campbell and by

Amanda Bryan, but Charlotte's asked to come and ask a question on [unclear] you'd

like to come in.

Charlotte Wright: Thank you very much. Great presentations folks. I think I've got one

of each. Firstly a comment, or maybe it's an offer which is the Highlands and Islands

Enterprise is very supportive of what's being proposed around community wealth

building, so too our local authority colleagues just to say we're really keen to work with

you particular if that's about how we help build the supply chain into procurement. My

question, I'm familiar with the sort of examples Calum Iain's just explained where we

see with community land owning communities how they developed their model.

I'm quite interested to understand what the measurement framework might look like elsewhere and what lessons we can learn from that to see what are the actual indicators of success and how long does success take. Maybe that's something colleagues in North Ayrshire or Neil could come back to me offline on Paul.

Paul Wheelhouse: Maybe if we can just – sorry, a good point Charlotte and I'll maybe

just see if Neil or Julie can give a quick comment and then I can also see that Alastair

Cooper from Shetland would like to come in as well. Hopefully we can get the comment

from Alastair as well, but Neil or Julie, do you want to respond to Charlotte's good

question there.

Neil McInroy: Yes, thank you Charlotte for that question and we need to – I'm aware

of HIE's interest in this and we need to engage with Scottish Government perspective

with you moving forward. On indicators specifically, the idea in these action plans is to

create bespoke outcomes that can be realisable to within a three to six month period so

it's very much to get something that's very demonstrative of the kind of changes we

could make. Given the pandemic, I think we need to move quickly and that is devised

in a bespoke way with those local pilot areas.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks so much Neil, that's very helpful. Can I invite Alastair

Cooper to come in. I think Alastair just wanted to ask a question. Over to you Alastair.

Alastair Cooper: Thanks Paul. Very quickly, the – I'm all for keeping the pound local.

Do everything I can to do so, but you have to balance that with the Scotland [external]

ethos of getting the best deal from wherever. I suppose my question is, how do we

actually square that keeping the pound local and keeping the benefit local and such

like, with the Scotland external ethos of the chasing the best value?

Paul Wheelhouse: Good question Alastair. Could you give us a little stab at

answering that Neil. Any thoughts.

Neil McInroy: Yes, it's a great point Alastair. I think it's all in the balance, Alastair. I

mean, clearly you need best value, price, quality, as well as the wider social, local

economic and ecological considerations. I think in the work in the spending element,

we do look at that and see is this the right balance in terms of what is local, what is

wide for Scotland, but also those wider social and ecological benefits – community

benefits if you like. It's all in the balance, but you are right to flag up that point though

and it's an important consideration.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks Neil. I think we might just have a minute or so left. I just

wondered if Amanda Bryan can maybe just comment on the work you're doing with – or

Crown Estate Scotland are doing with North Ayrshire Council on managing marine

resources, Amanda. That seems really interesting.

Amanda Bryan: Yeah, so we're in early stages of that, but we – Crown Estate

Scotland have identified that over the next three year period, we have an investment

pot of around £70 million to invest and some of that we have earmarked for community

regeneration and built environment. We're focusing that very much on the coastal

areas and we have very early fruitful discussions with partners in North Ayrshire

Council. I'm sure they'll want to comment. We have – it was just as the pandemic was

starting. We signed a memorandum of understanding so we're really exploring what

some of the opportunities now.

What we're looking at falls outwith the Highlands and Islands because we're looking at urban Ardrossan areas, but I think the principle remains the same. At the end of the day, as managers of these assets, it's not for us to dictate how they are best used for community regeneration so we're very much looking to work the likes of local authorities, local communities and others who see the potential and then we can look to invest the resources that we have to really drive that activity.

We've had similar discussions with Highland Council over Fort William 2040, for example and I know that there's other meetings in relation to Orkney later this week. It's more this is just the kind of approach that we're hoping to take and again colleagues from North Ayrshire might want to say a little bit more about that.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks very much, Amanda. I think we are probably very tight for

time now, but I note that Graham Leadbitter from Moray Council and Alex Gallagher

from North Ayrshire maybe want to comment on that specific point, Amanda. They both

want to come in so if I can maybe just bring in Alex briefly, just in case it relates to what

Amanda has been saying.

Alex Gallagher: It does indeed. I'm actually a portfolio holder for the island. I've been

talking to the directors – the [unclear] that you've been dealing with, Amanda, and

we're looking at ways of making sure or trying to find out how some of this can be

applied onto the islands. The point I would like to make – and lines me up quite well,

minister. I don't know if you're getting my messages. I think, we've gone a bit further

down the road than some others and I think the points I would like to make – I

mentioned earlier, I think Neil mentioned one size doesn't fit all.

I mean, we're very grateful that the Scottish Government is pushing this community wealth building and I think they are doing the right thing, but I would caution just anyone who is developing these ideas. It really is a bottom-up approach. Any framework that is too tight or straightjackety won't work and the specific case I would make here is – and it's maybe another conundrum for ministers. Julie mentioned the anchor charter. We have agreements with Fire and Rescue, Health Service, the Police et cetera, but what we're finding is that the finances in particular and the management of assets of these organisations isn't fully under their own control.

If the Health Board wants to spend £5000 or £10,000 on a project, they have to go somewhere else to get authority for that or if they want to give the use of a building or a piece of land, then they are not entirely in control that so that might be a barrier in future times. Julie did mention the £3 million we have set up by a Community Wealth Building Commission across all the Ayrshire [now] and that £3 million boost is vital to the success of that, so we really need that in next year's budget. The last thing I would say – Julie said we're happy to cooperate and we definitely are. If anyone wants to contact us through Julie or through the other officers, you certainly will – give time to discussions on this, thanks. Thanks for giving me the time, minster.

Paul Wheelhouse: No problem, Alex and thank you very much for that offer of support

to other colleagues on the call as well. Really generous of you with your time and

resources of the council. Thank you for that. I think if I could give the final word to

Graham before I'll just invite Neil if he's got any final comments. I'm conscious we're

eating into time so Graham, if you've got anything you would like to add and then we'll

just come back for Neil to end up.

Graham Leadbitter: Okay, thanks minister. The – just picking up on a point that was

made about procurement. One of the things I find with a small local authority is that our

procurement can tie up huge amounts worth of time from both our economic

development team and from our colleagues in procurement and finance. One thing

that's proved really useful is framework contracts. Framework contracts to Scotland

Excel don't sit necessarily all that well with community wealth building.

Now, we're really focusing on community wealth building as we go through a recovery phase from COVID and we're doing a lot of things that – I think we've got of ingredients for community wealth building and we're starting to get them into the mixing pot and get something out the other end of that, but I think something really needs to be done with the Scotland Excel frameworks to make that work and to take the pressure off on procurement and the amount of officer time that takes. As I say, especially for smaller authorities because it does eat a lot of time.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks Graham. That ties in very much, I suppose, with what

Alastair was saying as well around about the potential conflicts and Neil's response to

it. Neil, do you want to come and just to wrap up very quickly, if you wouldn't mind just

any points that have been made or any impressions of – because it seems a very

positive response to the agenda and obviously we're very grateful for North Ayrshire's

input to today's presentation as well. Over to you Neil.

Neil McInroy: Yes, it's been a very helpful conversation there Mr Wheelhouse, so

thank you to everyone really. Graham's point is a very telling one. It's something we

need to look at and has emerged already as part of the Clackmannanshire pilot, that

issue that you raised so we are aware of it. I think the final point from me generally

would be, is that clearly we need to – we're assuring benefits accrue in our local areas.

We're working within, but also it speaks back and learning that speaks back to Scottish

Government policy in these regards so it's not just a place-focus, it also speaks to other

stuff that may need to be changed or bent at the national level. There's a learning

element to this, for sure, nationally around this. Thanks very much for comments. I

really appreciate your time and thank you.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thank you Neil and thank you to Julie and to Calum Iain for

excellent presentations as Charlotte said. If it's okay with colleagues, we'll move on to

the next item on the agenda which is regarding European Structural and Investment

Funds and I'm due to chair this item again. If I can just start out with some brief

comments and then I'll bring in colleagues. Scotland, we believe obviously must not

lose valuable funding following a decision to leave the EU that Scotland did not vote

for.

Both the European Social Funds or ESF, and the European Regional Development Fund – ERDF- have played a significant role in developing Scotland's economy for many years and this is very evident with many vital projects and interventions having been funded across the Highlands and Islands with the paper having set out that £120 million has been received by the region in the form of ERDF and £65 million in ESF funding since the start of the European Structural and Investment Fund programmes.

Moving forward, clearly its essential that Scotland receives at the very least the same level of funding through the UK Government's proposed UK Shared Prosperity Fund as is currently so that's over £780 million for the ESF and ERDF programmes in total. Despite being less than three months away from Brexit itself and the end of the EU Structural and Investment Fund programmes in the UK, very little detail about the replacement has yet been released by the UK Government. While I'm not the lead in this area, more generally, I know that in my own portfolio, engagements with UK counterparts I've regularly had to ask updates on the SPF on behalf of Scottish minsters and I've never received any detail.

The sections of the UK Internal Market Bill relating to financial assistance will undermine and complicate the delivery of the proposed UK Shared Prosperity Fund in Scotland, that's our view. Written provisions in the section 6 of this bill do provide Whitehall with the ability to deliver the EU replacement funding programme in Scotland, a task which Scottish ministers have hitherto led successfully for decades. Scottish Government officials and ministers continue to stress to UK Government that we require full engagement in the development of the replacement funding vehicle and that Scotland's share of the funding must be fully devolved so that we can target it in the manner that suits the needs of Scotland's people, communities and businesses in their full diversity.

As noted in the paper provided, Scottish officials have begun a policy development under the assumption the Scottish share of the UK Shared Prosperity Fund will be fully available to the Scottish Government and our partners to utilise at our own discretion due to this lack of clarity to date. This work has been developed in partnership with a steering group of regional and representative stakeholders and based upon the Scottish Government's recent consultation exercise into the replacement of EU Structural and Investment Funds which allowed some 171 unique organisations to put forward their views.

These recommendations are currently being considered by Scottish minister and will be published in full in the upcoming weeks. I will now hand over to my colleague Sean Jamieson from our future funding design and implementation team at Scottish Government for his presentation and [unclear] Sean and colleagues, we have about 25 minutes for the presentation and discussion. Obviously if we can keep it tight, that would be much appreciated, so over to you Sean and hope the tech works at this point.

Sean Jamieson: Afternoon everyone. As Mr Wheelhouse outlined, the UK

Government has provided very little information regarding the development of their

proposed replacement to the European Structural Funds known as the UK Shared

Prosperity Funds. In response to this, the Scottish Government carried out a

consultation between 5th November 2019 until 12th February 2020. Responses from

Scotland's Highlands and Islands communities has been substantial with feedback

from all local authorities as well as a range of bodies including Highlands and Islands

Enterprise, the Convention of the Highlands and Islands, Highlands and Islands

Economic Partnership, Cairngorms National Park, Scottish Islands Federation and the

University of Highlands and Islands accompany this work.

Eight workshops were carried out across Scotland with many taken in the Highlands

and Islands including Kirkwall, Stornoway and Inverness which actually meant at

around 30 percent of all attendance. During the consultation process, both Scotland's

rural and urban communities similarly raised the importance of addressing spatial and

regional inequalities, priority setting at a geographical level in conjunction with local

government and communities, a reduction of economic inequalities and addressing

issues that impedes inclusive and sustainable economic growth.

The information gathered has been utilised in conjunction with a steering group of

various stake holders which is chaired by Professor David Bell from the University of

Stirling to produce funding recommendations for Scotland. These considered key

aspects which include policy alignment, governance and delivery funding allocation

models and monitoring and evaluation. It is proposed that a replacement fund means it

will be focused on promoting place-based economic development of the region helping

communities across Scotland to improve key economic, social and wellbeing funds.

These recommendations are currently being considered as the minister said, and the

Scottish ministers [unclear] published within the next upcoming weeks. Further

feedback from members would be welcomed once they are released and as the

minister [noted] in his opening remarks, this work is not without its challenges. The

potential implications of the UK Internal Market Bill, especially in relation to section 6

which makes reference to financial assistance which could be made, and which have

wide implications upon the [unclear].

We believe that the centralisation of this fund [at a UK level] could disrupt the productive part of our relationships which the Scottish Government has forged with stakeholders over the course of many years, [unclear] potential confusion, duplication and unnecessary additional bureaucracy. The concern is coupled with the recent announcement [unclear] UK comprehensive spending review which should provide details on the UK [SPF] will not be [multi-annual]. It is unclear how a single year spending review will impact upon the development and delivery of the UK SPF or this will – yeah, it's unclear at this point.

To ensure that that these potential challenges are mitigated the Scottish Government

will continue to stress the UK Government of the needs for full engagement with the

development of the UK SPF, ensure Scotland's share of funding is targeted to the

varied needs of Scotland's people, communities and businesses conveyed by the

findings of the consultation. Mr McKee, the Minister for Trade and Innovation has

written to Luke Hall, the Minster of State for Regional Growth and Local Government at

Westminster stressing his concerns. He also has written to the [closer] community

requesting an urgent update more broadly. The Scottish Government will keep COHI

members informed as the situation develops [unclear] time.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thank you very much Sean and I'll just open it up to the floor. If

anyone's got any comments they wish to make, please do just stick a r in the chat room

so I know who to invite in because obviously there's over 16 of us on the call. Sorry,

from what you were saying Sean, you've obviously a significant amount of uncertainty

at the moment and in terms of time scales, is there anything that you can say around

that in terms of at what point we could start to engage with local authority partners and

obviously engaging with COSLA directly. I don't know if you have any expectation

around how soon you'll have clarity about what our – in the absence of any information

from UK ministers, I'd stress, what our framework might look like.

Sean Jamieson: Sure, we don't have a set framework until the recommendations are

released, but as soon as possible we'll be engaging with as many stake holders as we

can.

Paul Wheelhouse: If I might – I don't see anything in the chat room, unless it's frozen.

Can I invite maybe Charlotte just if there's anything from a HIE perspective you want to

say about this, because obviously it has a key bearing on both capital investment and

skills investment within the region. Also, perhaps if there's any colleagues from SDS –

you may want to comment on the impact of this uncertainty around what will replace

ESF as well.

Charlotte Wright: Thank you and yes very happy to come in and absolutely

understand the situation as just been laid out to us. As I think you commented at the

outset, there is absolutely no part of the Highlands and Islands that has not benefited

massively from EU finds over the years so I think we feel a growing concern about

what that replacement might look like. How it impacts on our planning particularly as

we are focusing now on recovery in this current economic climate. A line of sight to

what that future would be would make a significant difference.

The other thing – and I'm sure other colleagues online would want to say as well – is that we do feel that the regional model which has operated effectively across the Highlands and Islands through successive EU funding streams, has been very successful and that degree of regional and local partnership makes a difference to how we deploy funds. Maybe one related point, if I could just mention as well, we are also becoming more and more concerned about not knowing exactly what our state aid rules will look like as we come right up to the brink of potentially making decisions on awards that could fall either side of a very clear line. There are some concerns which do impact on being able to make progress on key projects.

Paul Wheelhouse: [That's smashing, thank you Charlotte]. I know you have some

potentially very significant investments that you have to decide on, and I feel your pain

in terms of lack of information about state aid at the moment. That's definitely

something we need to note that you and others will need clarity on. Just looking – let

colleagues know who I know wants to come in. I think, just to say to Alex Gallagher, I'm

not messages Alex directly, but Andrew is passing them on so it will be you're

responding privately to Andrew rather than to the group.

I've got you in the line after Michael Foxley. Michael, then Alex and then Alastair Cooper again from Shetland. Please do – anyone else who wants to speak, you're your request in that box 199:27], thank you. It's over to you Michael.

Michael Foxley: Yeah, thanks very much minister. I'm just reflecting back over the

decades I've been involved in public life in the Highlands and Islands. It's hard to think

of any project of any significance that hasn't benefitted from European funding and

none more so than the UHI. It frankly wouldn't exist without European capital and ESIF

and other revenue streams. It just would not exist without that support building the

capacity across the region with the various colleges, but it's not just about money to

make a plea. It's also about the trans-national links which certainly I've seen in the

past.

Very valuable in terms of forestry and also very valuable in terms of the ERASMUS programmes where I've just had a wee reminder from Amanda, 20 forestry students from Inverness School of Forestry were taking part in the ERASMUS exchange last year alone. It's massive and its these – and I think that's almost certainly why, to be a bit political, the majority of Scotland voted to remain, because we are well aware of the importance of these European link s and working with our friends and neighbours in Europe.

The other thing if I could just briefly just support what Charlotte said. I think we need a Regional Partnership to decide on local priorities and make local decisions. It's vital once we get a bit of clarity as to where this is going, that there is that regional partnership re-established. Thank you.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thank you, Michael. I agree with everything you said UHI. In that

very minor role back in the day when I was helping support the business case for that,

it was evident how important European funding was. I think you are absolutely spot on

with that. I think I said I would bring Alex Gallagher in next. Alex, do you want to.

Alex Gallagher: Yeah, [unclear] and thanks for letting me in. I have to agree with

Charlotte. It's getting kind of worrying now. It's getting very near any sort of deadline

where it's going to a problem to even take the money and use it properly. Just a small

point, I'm on the Industrial Communities Alliance and two weeks ago we had two

meeting. We had the Scottish Regional meeting and we had the AGM of the UK body

and they both are urging – and I understand the problems with the Internal Market Bill

and I think it's something that needs to resolved, but the ICA and I think ourselves are

urging that we should establish a partnership approach to particularly SPF and it

should be a UK Government that devolved the administrations, but I would also say in

terms of some similarity we need to engage properly with the local authorities as well.

Paul Wheelhouse: Yeah, I think that's a fair point Alex. I'm not an expert necessarily

and perhaps Sean, do you want to comment. I know certainly the European

partnerships that exist – or have existed in bringing together local authorities to have a

key role in oversight of the delivery of European funding in Scotland. Is there anything

you want to say on that. As I say, it's not my area of expertise, but perhaps Sean can

give us a bit more on that.

Sean Jamieson: Thanks Mr Wheelhouse. We have engaged with the local authorities

throughout the consultation process and we will continue to engage with them as much

as we can because they have been vital in delivering the current programmes and we

are very aware of that.

Paul Wheelhouse: Is that something, Sean, just to follow up about the framework

you're developing – I appreciate it's not there yet and there's still work to be done. Will

that comment on what kind of structures exist once the Shared Prosperity Fund is up

and running and let's hopefully see it being devolved in terms of spending decisions to

Scottish ministers and our partners. It would say something about the framework about

how – to pick up Alex's point – the local authorities would be engaged in decisions and

prioritisation of use of funding alongside obviously our enterprise agencies.

Sean Jamieson: Yeah, so the consultation made very clear that the regional works

and it works well. I think that it's important that local authorities know – are best placed

to outline and deliver these projects. That they know their local areas the best so yeah,

it's something that really has been outlined and the recommendations of the

importance going forward.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks Sean. I believe Alastair Cooper from Shetland would like to

make a comment. I can't see anyone else in the box at the moment so please do let me

know if you want to come. Over to you Alastair.

Alastair Cooper: Thank you Mr Wheelhouse. The three island authorities made a very

strong case for the Shared Prosperity Fund and submitted a strong paper on the

subject. One of the things I think coming out of that – and I'm speaking as an ex-officer

that was involved in the Highlands and Islands programme for quite a number of years

and is well aware of the real benefits which have accrued across the area. I believe

there's a new tool which is capable of producing territory strategies and at least the

potential to create more place-based form of policy making.

I wondering to what extent that tool could be used across the Highlands and Islands given all the ages which have been brought into focus as we discussed the business today.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks Alastair, that's a good question. Sean, can you comment

on that just about linkages to the place-based approach we are taking more generally

across policy, just to provide some clarity on the linkages between this and that agenda

as Alastair has outlined.

Sean Jamieson: Yeah, so we've focused heavily on a place-based approach within

the recommendations and it's something that we've spent a lot of time looking at and

it's something that will definitely be part of something going forward. It will be generally

aligned with wider national performance indicators at the Scottish Government level.

:Alastair Cooper: Yep, happy to hear that. I think we either recognise that we lost

something in the last programme by having a Scotland-wide programme rather than a

more focused one.

Paul Wheelhouse: Is that something you comment on Sean in terms of your

knowledge of what we've got now. In terms of the – I mean, obviously we can reflect

back on that Alastair, so we take it into account in terms of our thinking and in terms

how best we can address your concerns there. Sean is there anything you want to –

just in reply to Alastair's point there. Then I think Chris Brodie wants to come in from

SDS as well, so we'll bring in Chris after you've commented.

Sean Jamieson: Well, I think you said it best. I'm not actually an expert in the older

programmes, but any information you could provide me, that would be ideal.

Paul Wheelhouse: Yep, so maybe if Alastair's got any examples of where that didn't

work so well, he could feed them into you for consideration. Would that be okay, Sean.

Sean Jamieson: Yeah, that would be great.

Paul Wheelhouse: Great, thanks. We've just got maybe a couple of minutes left we

wind up this topic, and Chris from SDS is just going to come back in. I think I asked

colleagues from SDS just to comment on the importance of ESF to the activity in the

Highlands and Islands. Over to you Chris.

Chris Brodie: Thank you Mr Wheelhouse. I think it is fair to say, like everyone, up to

recently we've found the lack of detail from the UK Government has been quite

frustrating. Mike Foxley quite rightly made the point about the importance of European

funding to supporting the development of UHI and the work of UHI. Similarly, ESF has

been really to underwrite some of the costs for the expansion of foundation

apprenticeships over the last four or five years.

I suppose the final point was really with another nod to history and where we are at the moment in terms of the economy and the labour market. ESF has played a really important role in underwriting both employability efforts in helping getting people back into work and I think that's going to be an issue that consumes a lot of our collective thinking over the next couple of years unfortunately.

Paul Wheelhouse: That's a good point. I appreciate Fiona Hyslop is not on the call at

the moment, but we certainly had, I think, a reason to be concerned about significant

transitions happening before COVID that would have an impact on the labour market.

Obviously COVID has perhaps accelerated change in the retail market and other areas

– tourism – that may have particular impact on employment in the regions like the

Highlands and Islands so you are absolutely right to identify ESF has been cornerstone

of how we responded in the past so it's definitely going to be an important point to know

what's going to take place instead. Can I just check – I'm not sure – I can't see on my

screen if we've got the DFM or Mr Ewing back yet. I'm conscious Mr Ewing is due to

chair the next item on…

Fergus Ewing: Yeah, I'm back.

Paul Wheelhouse: Oh, great Fergus. Hopefully – we're leaving a legacy finishing

slightly later than the first session before lunch so we're just about 15 minutes behind,

but I think given there's nobody else needs to come back in, if I can hand over to you

Fergus and just thank all who have taken part in the previous discussion including

Sean for your comments. I'll hand over to you Mr Ewing.

John Swinney: Okay, just before you start Fergus, I'm back on as well so if you want

to take the next session forward Fergus, and maybe until about 10 to three and I'll

come in at that and begin to wind things up. Okay.

Fergus Ewing: Okay.

John Swinney: Thank you.

Fergus Ewing: Thanks John. Thanks very much and I was able to listen in, Paul, to

your session. Most interesting it was. This is the last agenda item today before we

move onto the standard review of the outcomes of the decision. This item really

discusses the transformational projects and opportunities for projects and with a

particular emphasis on digital and R100 and other digital investments. As we've already

heard throughout the course of today's proceeding, I think, do allow a new kind of

range of opportunities in the Highlands and Islands especially the ability of people to do

work anywhere here really once connected to superfast or even ultrafast broadband

that formerly could only be done in places like the City of London or Wall Street or

other metropolitan locations.

In a very few short years, this pattern of life and work will begin, I think, to unravel and

alter fundamentally and for the better and I think Andrew earlier on pointed out that a

member of his family had come up from London to do work here which hitherto she had

done in Peckham, I think it was. I expect that that story will be replicated thousands of

times and that R100 once it's rolled out – and we're at this frustrating stage of just

about to see the start of that process, but once it is delivered, then people will be

digitally empowered in rural and island Scotland and that's a terrific thing.

If as a country, we make a living by using largely our brains, then it would seem to me that an awful lot of people will choose to use their brains, but allow their bodies to live in a place which is congenial, where they choose to bring up a family which has many advantages over urban locations in terms of safety, quality of the environment, education standards. I'm truly excited about this. This paper builds on a whole load of work which I know that each local authority has been doing in partnership with the Scottish Government and HIE and I did ask Charlotte whom I'll bring in, in a minute to just remind me of the list of the projects that each local authority has been working on.

I haven't time to run through them all, but they are very exciting list and I would be interested to hear in what ways you feel that these projects have perhaps been set back by COVID and/or Brexit. As Michael Foxley has quite rightly pointed out, the EU has been there or thereabouts in just about all the projects that one can think over the years, especially in the infrastructure side. I'm afraid to say without being political, that this Shared Prosperity Fund – the only thing we know about the Shared Prosperity Fund is that – its name. We don't know any more about it than that which is quite a ludicrous situation to be in when we think of the impact that funds such as LEADER or ERASMUS have had especially in the Highlands.

The last thing I'll say before passing on to Charlotte is that I have sort in various portfolios, including the current one of rural to take a direct interest in projects like the funicular railway where HIE have delivered an investment plan now which has been well received, in projects such as the Inverness Castle Project which I co-chair along with the Provost of Inverness and which is a Highland Council led project, but we would play part, in the Stornoway Deep Water Project where I work alongside local authority colleagues, trustees and many others.

Therefore, I just make the point that the Scottish Government is there to assist in working in partnership and where appropriate and where there's a desire to work in very close partnership and collaboration to drive these projects forward with a delivery organisation or joint committee. That offer is there because we recognise that many of these projects have the potential to be game changing for your part of the Highlands and Islands and indeed for your citizens. With no further ado, can I first pass to Charlotte and then I'll ask Joe Brown to say a few words – briefly if he could – and then Robbie McGhee to present on digital and R100. Charlotte.

Charlotte Wright: Thanks very much. Just by way of background and how we've got

here, the paper really reflects an important piece of collaborative work mainly through

our senior officers' group. That's taken the broad COHI themes for the vibrant regional

economy post-2020 which we're familiar with, digital, transport, skills, talent attraction,

marine, energy and housing. That's backed up by additional 2019 commissioned

research highlighting these place-based areas of opportunity to develop a range of

projects. As a reminder, they were around seaweed and marine biotech, marine

renewable energy, hydrogen, energy infrastructure, aviation advanced technology,

healthcare, place-based solutions and carbon and low-carbon destination.

The projects lists – and apologies for that coming round a bit late. I have to stress

they're illustrative rather than exhaustive demonstrating that alignment – really do

demonstrate that breadth of activity either underway or in planning. I think after we've

quickly made these introductions, it would probably be useful to hear direct from the

various local authorities about some of the projects either on the lists or under

consideration in their areas. There's a really strong read across here to Programme for

Government and particularly we see these reflected in Growth Deals across the

Highlands and Islands. They really are a focus for our wider economic recovery work

across all partners.

Substantial work has been undertaken through the senior officers' group to develop this

approach and reframe our post-2020 context with this now additional COVID lens that

you referred. Economic recovery partnership working, and the support of Growth Deals

will really progress this ambitious and important list of project activity which supports

our vision for the Highlands and Islands for the future. If it's okay just to continue, Mr

Ewing, I think in terms of the next steps here, we'd like to just talk about how we

continue to work on developing projects, contributing to each of these opportunities and

how we take them forward for discussion or otherwise at further COHI meetings and

with that senior officers group.

We could take forward further stakeholder mapping to identify the contributions from each of the partners, and make sure that the right leadership, delivery and implementation responsibility is clear. I think we also need to reflect on the engagement of other national and regional stakeholders who are not represented in COHI who can contribute significantly to the delivery and make sure that those communication channels amongst stake holders and private sector are fully developed so that we've got common understanding of these overall objectives, how they fit with our other activities, and to clearly identify ownership and delivery.

Where needed, I think, give consideration to the most effective partnership structures to help enable that delivery which is going to make the important difference for the economic challenges we are facing at the moment. I'll leave it there and pass to Joe, I think.

Fergus Ewing: Joe, on you go.

Joe Brown: My apologies. Good afternoon – sorry minister, I was struggling with the

technology as ever. I will take a cue from you and be very…

[Over speaking]

Joe Brown: I will just confirm that, I guess, we've been having ongoing conversations

with the senior officers' group to develop the COHI projects. As was steered by the last

conversation with COHI, we tried to focus on not just developing the projects but

ensuring that they connect and add value. Where possible that work is ongoing

particularly in the context of recalibrating not just for time, but for, I suppose, COVID

and the implications Brexit. One thing which has emerged is a need to focus on the

resource that is available and to drive these projects forward, we will take that forward

and report back at the next meeting.

I guess, the other thing is that we, partly because of the changes that you referenced in your introduction, we now see digital as a cross-cutting theme rather than one in its own right. I guess we're looking for COHI to endorse that analysis and with a view towards that, we plan to drill into the progress that's been made on R100 and digital more generally through the presentation that's about to come.

Fergus Ewing: Thank you, Joe. Can I bring Robbie McGhee then to talk us through

the R100 and the opportunities that that provides, relating to these projects. Robbie.

Robbie McGhee: Yep, thanks minister and good afternoon everyone. Thanks very

much for the chance to come along today. I head up the digital connectivity division

within Scottish Government. We're responsible for the delivery of the various digital

infrastructure programmes that the Scottish Government funds and the R100

programme is obviously the most prominent of those. There is also a range of others –

those focused on extending mobile coverage, developing the internet of things and 5G,

all of which aim to extend the reach of digital infrastructure Scotland.

I do have a few slides today which I will try and rattle through as quickly as possible so

we can have as much time as possible for discussion. I'll talk about two things, the

R100 programme – that's going to driving out future proofed digital infrastructure

across the Highlands and Islands in the coming years very much built on the success

of the Digital Scotland Superfast Broadband programme that been delivered by

Highlands and Islands Enterprise and BT over the past few years and even now in its

very final stages continues to connect people across the region.

I also want to draw your attention to a consultation I've just kicked off around the

Scottish Government's overall digital strategy and if we can just move onto the next

slide at that point. We published a discussion document earlier this month. It sets out

some of the key priorities that will underpin Scotland's updated Digital Strategy. I guess

these priorities just reflect the economic and social upheaval that we've all lived

through over the past seven, eight months. The strategy has to reflect that we've seen

seismic changes in the way that people work and the use that organisations are now

making of digital platforms, applications and services.

From these behavioural shifts, comes the potential for real lasting transformation and

improvement in the way that the public sector delivers services and indeed how

businesses operate right across the economy. I think it's true that every organisation of

any sort of scale almost had to become a digital business overnight seven months ago,

even if they perhaps wouldn't see themselves as one at the start of this year. The

paper identifies the six key themes that are listed on the slide. I won't go through all six,

but I did want to just focus briefly on one of them, the idea that no one should be left

behind.

I think that reflects a very strong view from ministers that geography, background,

income shouldn't be a barrier to people in businesses getting online and becoming

digitally engaged. That obviously plays squarely into the work of my division so the

R100 programme that I'll talk about in a minute, the Scottish 4G infill programme that is

bringing new mobile masts to up to 40 mobile not-spots areas, many of them in the

Highlands and Islands, and our work with the UK Government to maximise the amount

of full fibre investment in Scotland from the £5 billion funding pot that the UK

Government has announced for full fibre investment.

I think it also reflects a wider digital inclusion agenda so one of the way that the

Scottish Government responded to the pandemic back in the start of April, was by

establishing the Connecting Scotland programme which has provided equipment,

connectivity as well as training and support for those that were shielding and at risk of

isolation. That's been scaled up and extended out to other vulnerable households so

there's a real sense of our approach in Scotland being about inclusion and trying to

overcome some of the obvious barriers to participation.

I guess, that includes [and obviously extends] to the delivery of public services to make them more adaptable and more accessible and more efficient and to reinvent them in many ways. That comes with a continuing need to build common operating platforms, work across boundaries and every organisation represented here today has got a part to play in that. Just move onto the next slide.

This sets out the strategic priorities for the Scottish Government going forward. It's not exhaustive by any means, but it reflects the themes within the strategy. Connectivity is clearly a big part of that, and my division is overseeing and supporting the delivery of infrastructure programmes like R100 and 4G infill. I guess, increasingly [every kind] is no longer solely about just delivering that infrastructure. It's also about trying to maximise the economic impact of the infrastructure and technology it enables.

We set up the Scotland 5G Centre which is partnering with industry and academia to roll out 5G innovation hubs. That's focused in finding connectivity enabled solutions to the business problems. We're also to ensure that we've got the right infrastructure in place to support our data economy so we're focusing on how we can promote data centre development and international connectivity so lots of work to not only deliver new digital infrastructure but ensure that we are able to maximise the use of it and economic benefits that flow from it. If we move onto the next slide.

We published a discussion document early last month. That consultation runs for 12 weeks so pretty much to the end of year. All of the information is on the slide. As I said, we're really keen for every organisation represented at this Convention to feed in their views. As I said earlier, we're kind of all digital organisations now, the work that we do, the services that we deliver all rely upon connectivity and we all have a role in delivering the strategy as well, so by all means please tell us if what's proposed resonates with you and even more importantly shout if it doesn't and we'll absorb that feedback, continue those conversations and publish an updated strategy early next year.

We'll move on to the R100 programme, if we can go onto the next slide. R100 is increasingly our focus so I wanted to spend a couple of minutes providing you with an update on where we are. As many of you know, we split the R100 procurement into three regional contracts – the biggest being the north contract which takes in all the Highlands and Islands. Now, we actually selected BT as a preferred bidder the north lot about a year ago, but just after that we received a challenge from one of the unsuccessful bidders which to everyone's frustration meant that the contract award had to be put hold.

It is hard just to overstate just how frustrating this was as we'd achieved a really good outcome, but we found ourselves talking to lawyers rather than network engineers for much of this year. The good news is that that's now been resolved, and we can move forward to contract signature now. Almost a year has passed, so we can't pick up exactly where we left off, there are some bits of BT's bid that need to be updated just to reflect the passing of time. I should stress it doesn't give them licence to make wholesale changes, just to refresh some elements particularly timing and things like the delivery of subsea cables.

That's now been updated and we're going through final DFM checks and governance and [BE UK] who are part of the UK Government, they also need to show the contract state aid purposes and then we're good to go. We're aiming for contract signature early in December which is important because there is a time pressure that's linked to the expiry of the UK's state aid scheme for broadband at the end of this year, but rest assured we will get it signed ahead of that.

The contract is not yet signed. I'm probably not able to share the headlines yet in terms of overall coverage that will follow the signing in December. There are a few things that I can say by way of trails. What I can say is what the mandate today is, which public areas that we specified from the outset must be covered. They all still remain, so you can see them on the map there. All of them in the Highland and Islands. There will also be extensive new subsea cable deployment, so the Digital Scotland Superfast Broadband programme has already delivered 20 subsea routes to reach our island communities and there'll be a great deal more of those through the R100 programme.

One follow up trail is that the trend that we've seen in the two other R100 contracts for

the vast majority of builds is using full fibre – fibre to the premises technology. That will

continue into the north contract. Full fibre is as future proofed as broadband

connections get. Fibre straight into people's homes, capable of gigabyte speeds, so if

you think that our policy commitment was for superfast access – so that's 30

megabytes per second. What we will be delivering across the R100 programme in the

main will be capable of delivering speeds of a gigabyte per second, so that's 1000

megabytes per second. It's way beyond the original superfast ambition and a really

great outcome for the Highlands and Islands.

As I mentioned, a year has passed since BT submitted their bid and that year has seen

some changes to commercial coverage which will reflect an updated speed coverage

template so essentially that's our intervention area. In other words, the premises that

are eligible for public funding. BT will be doing some remodelling to take account of that

and that's happening in parallel at the moment with the work that we've done to refresh

the bid. Some premises will come in – it's mostly premises going out which is a good

thing. It means that there's more commercial coverage than was originally expected

and it means that our investment through the R100 programme will ultimately go

further.

That remodelling will be completed early next year at which point we'll be able to

confirm the overall coverage footprint at premises level. Rest assured, we won't be

sitting on our hands until that is done. We will get started on work as soon as the

contract are signed. We've got lots of premises in the Highlands and Islands that aren't

impacted by those commercial changes so we can get started immediately on those

and that will mean early activity in some of our island communities in advance of a

follow up subsea deployment.

We move onto the next slide. Aside from the contracts which are obviously a key

element of the R100 programme, we've also launched the Scottish Broadband Voucher

which, as I say, is another really important element of the programme. Up to £500 per

premises available from the Scottish Government which in some cases can be put

together with the UK Government's voucher scheme which means a really significant

amount of funding available which we hope will drive full fibre in areas that sit beyond

the reach of the contracts.

If we just maybe move to the next slide. Yep, as you can see there's some information

there on the voucher scheme which went live in September of this year. It gives

opportunities for those premises that sit outside the contracts, but we also have an

interim voucher available through the scheme. That will deliver the support that will

ensure that everyone in Scotland is able to access a superfast broadband connection

by the end of 2021 which of course was the commitment. You'll find information on the

Scottish Broadband Voucher Scheme on a new refreshed website and if we move onto

the next slide.

The website is really a repository of information on coverage and the voucher scheme,

so it includes a new premises level checker. That will tell you where your home or your

business premises fits. Whether it has coverage, whether it's in scope the R100

contracts or indeed eligible for vouchers and you can access information on vouchers

and registered suppliers through that site. There's been lots of progress whenever a

voucher that people in businesses can access now. We've got a real game changing

infrastructure investment, which is about to be confirmed and ticked off in the coming

weeks as soon as the contract with BT is signed.

I think just to finish off, we want to work with every single organisation that's in

attendance at the Convention today so member of the Highlands and Islands

Enterprise digital team are already working as part of the R100 team and we'll also be

ramping up engagement with the local authorities in the coming weeks and months.

We want to work really closely with local authorities to enable you guys to contribute to

delivery in your own patches so on practical issues around things like roadworks and

wayleaves.

For local authorities and for the wider group, we also want to raise awareness about the roll out. When and where infrastructure will be deployed in a way that helps your organisations become more digital organisations and I think, the investment through R100 which builds on what's been delivered through the Digital Scotland Superfast Broadband programme will mean that connectivity itself will no longer be a barrier on that journey. Hopefully that's been helpful and I'm keen to answer any questions that you have, but I'll hand back to Mr Ewing.

Fergus Ewing: Well, thanks very much Robbie. That's a very helpful overview and I

think colleagues will remind for some time your reference to the actual speeds being a

gigabyte so it will be Robbie gigabyte McGhee I suspect you'll be known as. I think you

did say up to one gigabyte, just to give you a bit of cover. Seriously, that's very solid

progress and very good news that the legal challenge has resolved. Could I invite

colleagues to contribute. Maybe I should start to put right an omission earlier to call

Margaret Davidson.

If Margaret would like to come in first and if others could signal, I wonder if I could maybe ask Andrew [Crowler's] assistance in correctly identifying people this time, as I obviously failed miserably last time, but I don't know if Margaret, you want to kick off. Do you? I haven't – I'm not getting Margaret coming up on my screen at all.

Margaret Davidson: Okay, thank you Fergus. Right, do you know the most pleasing

thing is the obvious commitment to making progress fast now and getting this really

moving after a year of intensely frustrating problems while we were waiting for the legal

action. I really appreciate that from yourself, from Paul Wheelhouse and from the

officers dealing with this in the Scottish Government. We're more than ready for this, I

can tell you. After I spoke with – I think it was HIE last week, I had a session with BT

and it became obvious that part of R100 is going to be a mixture fibre to premises and

cabinets and copper wire and I asked them what would make them do more fibre to

premises. The answer was vague, but – there were all sorts of caveats, but I think it

came down to more money. I'd be interested in the answer to that.

The other thing for me is far more serious and could cause us real problems. Just now,

because we're voucher scheme and because we've got intense frustration in many

areas with very low broadband rates, people are finding their own solutions and HIE

was very much recommending using the 4G masts where you can and also the satellite

if that's what you need, but we've also got broadband providers going out there. Some

of them are quite enthusiastically looking to do it along with wind farms or whatever

else they're making contact with.

The difficulty is, if people opt for [this] and they are getting 25, 30, 35 megabytes, is this going to rule them out of fibre to premises and that's a hard lesson for them. I'm sitting here on wireless broadband, so something I want to know. Can we get fibre to premises when it finally arrives?

Male: Yeah, no, I appreciate [unclear].

[Over speaking]

Robbie McGhee: On the question of more money – and as I say, I should stress the

majority of builds – well, in fact all the builds, for example, in the south lot is fibre to the

premises. The vast majority in the central lot is as well. As I say, I expect that that trend

will continue. There is scope within the contracts to add some funds and that's the

obvious that you would flip that fibre to the cabinet to fibre to the premises. We

presented this very much as an opportunity to UK Government to potentially add some

funds to the contracts. I think there is a real opportunity there.

The scale of the R100 contracts mean even if you look at the 10 per cent materiality threshold, it still means that there is a real opportunity to add a level of funding that will make a real difference. First point, I think is to stress that the vast majority of build through the north contract will fibre to the premises, but we will work tirelessly to try and maximise that as we move along both through potentially adding funds to the contract, but also through efficiencies and through the kind of ways in which we've found saving to previous contracts.

The aim will be to maximise full fibre. In terms of the second point around people finding their own solutions, again, if in terms of the intervention areas for eligible premises for R100, it's those premises that cannot currently receive 30 megabytes per second, so those are the premises that are the focus of the programme. We can't go beyond that just due to state aid constraints. I think from our point of view, what we are hoping to do is, in parallel with delivering R100, we will be living in effect, a full fibre delivery strategy and I think we will be using that.

We've already used that to engage with [unclear] at the UK level because as I say, UK ministers have announced £5 billion for full fibre and again, that would be the funding pot that would really allow us to target those premises that can currently receive superfast speeds, but [have no] commercial prospect of receiving full fibre investment. I think those will be of really important number of premises within the Highlands and Islands and again, we would expect Scotland to benefit given obviously the scale of premises that are in that kind of area that have got low population density, challenging geography, but possibly have superfast and possibly had it delivered through the Digital Scotland Programme.

We do want to make sure that we've got a strategy in place that we think will work, that can benefit from additional investment at UK level.

Fergus Ewing: We also have Garry who would like to ask a question. If I can as Garry

to come forward and then could Alastair Cooper ask a question after that please, thank

you.

Garry Coutts: Hello, thanks very much for that. It was a fascinating presentation and

its really good news to see that we're getting this roll out happening. It will be important

for challenging digital poverty issue that an awful lot of people experience and we need

to work collaboratively to make sure that all of our schools, our colleges, our GP

practices, everybody across the region properly maximises the opportunities that this

has. That means that we're actually going to have to educate folk and awaken people

to the opportunity that comes.

For some of us, including myself, this is actually all very new. I mean, I was thinking I

was probably into my early 40s before I first used email, so keeping up speed with

things like video conferencing and all the rest that's available is actually quite

challenging. I'm certainly aware of an awful lot of businesses who are not taking

advantage of the opportunities that exist even of some online sales opportunities

because they just don't have the time or the knowledge about how they actually do

that.

I was fascinated with your stuff about social capital. I think that UHI has a very important part to play across the whole of the region to try and make sure that we give people the real chances, but we also need to be creative about it because the traditional way of educating folk is not going to work. We need to really think about how we manage to create these opportunities for people, micro-businesses and in the most rural areas to be able to make the most use of the opportunities that fully digital will give. I suppose I'm just making a plea that as we move forward, the university, our partner colleges and the wider COHI community are all involved in really thinking about that.

Robbie McGhee: Thanks Gary, I think that's a really good point. As I said in the

presentation, from my point of view, delivery of the infrastructure won't on its own

deliver the full economic impacts that it could, if we don't have all that stuff that comes

in the background. In many ways, I think the challenge for us is to build that coalition

across the region to maximise take up, but also to deliver that skills support and I think,

as you've identified, that's where UHI can play a key role and I think, Highlands and

Islands Enterprise plays a key role with that as well. I absolutely agree with everything

you've said.

Fergus Ewing: Alastair Cooper, do you want to ask your question.

Alastair Cooper: Yeah, thank you Mr Ewing. I have two questions. The first one is on

digital and the – I tend to keep the video off because when I put the video on then I

tend to drop out, so that's the sort of connection I have at the moment. Is it the case

that with the voucher scheme, you'll be technology locked. In other words, you wouldn't

be able to get scalability going forward. I mean, that's m y big problem with the voucher

scheme, is that you're never going to get a gigabyte on the voucher scheme. This

would be so expensive you wouldn't be able to afford it. To what extent do you think the

voucher scheme going forward will be scalable.

Fergus Ewing: Robbie, do you want to [comment on] that?

Robbie McGhee: Yes, indeed. Thanks for that Alastair. I think what we are looking to

do through the voucher scheme is try and where we can, is to try and promote and

stimulate aggregation which is where we will start to see full fibre delivered through

vouchers. There's been lots of work that's been done to design the voucher process in

a way that's as easy and straight forward for members of the public and suppliers alike

to navigate in terms of access and information and then acting upon that.

I guess, I'm not sure that's going to build on a lot of the good practice that's been established through existing voucher schemes across the UK, but we've designed it so it's not a tortuous process for people. There's not form after form for people to fill out. Once people determine whether they are eligible for vouchers through the online check, they'll get a list of registered suppliers who can deliver connections in their area and they are then free to engage with those suppliers, but crucially in terms of the scalability point, we set up a supplier portal so that the suppliers that are registered on the scheme can access information on premises where they are.

They can start to do that bit of almost kind of desktop network modelling which will be really important. Obviously, we want them to engage with the people in question. Again, it will be the supplier that then engages with us to register these packages of premises and again, I think that it's that kind of level of information which we've not necessarily had in a lot of UK voucher schemes where there's a supplier portal that enables those suppliers to go in and look at the viability of the network build. I think the other point is just there's a serious amount of money that's available through the voucher scheme together so we're not combining it with the UK Government scheme.

You are looking at up to £8500 per premises and that's a level of funding that we've just not seen in all our voucher schemes across the UK. We're really hopeful that the Scottish Broadband Voucher Scheme will be able to deliver full fibre connections and will be able to scale.

Alastair Cooper: Thank you. Coming back on the wider transformational

opportunities, Shetland at the moment is on the cusp a real move forward. We've got

the inter-connecter agreed and Viking Wind Farm has started – it's going to be

probably the biggest wind in Scotland. I'm wearing my flak jacket at the moment

because there's a very active sustainability group that's against the windfarm but that's

by the by.

We have the spaceport [there] in Unst and the real prospect of that going ahead and if the wind farm gets started, then the likelihood is that we will get blue and green hydrogen at Sullom Voe and carbon capture and storage. In a few years' time, Shetland could have a vibrant economy, but you should never forget your traditional industries, you ken, and to that extent my concern is that Shetland depends very much on the fishing industry and going forward, the paper of the Fisheries Management of Scotland and that's a discussion paper.

We need to think seriously about how that can create opportunities for the remote and vulnerable communities. When you think that 63 per cent of the Scottish fishing fleet exists in the Highlands and Islands, and some of these are maintaining folk in remote and vulnerable communities. I do think – that's not covered in here, but I think going forward, we need to think as to how that particular aspect of our local economy can be brought in and create a transformation. I believe that it has the opportunity to maintain folk in these remote and vulnerable communities. I'm talking just about Shetland here, I'm talking about the whole Highlands and Islands and I think that if we don't look at it, it's an opportunity missed.

Fergus Ewing: Thanks Alastair. Now, can we go to Graham Leadbitter please and

then James Stockan and then I'll probably come to Paul Wheelhouse and then I think

we might –we've lost Fergus, I think, but Graham first and then I'll take James Stockan.

Graham Leadbitter: Thank you. Just a couple of quick points. In Moray we've done

pretty well with our residential roll out over recent years, but we're still at that – still a bit

of a concern is the level of availability of 10 megabytes plus for businesses. We're

sitting at 12 per cent of businesses that can't access faster than 12 megabytes per

second compared to five megabytes for a national comparison. That's obviously a bit of

a concern particularly as we're looking at economic recovery from COVID and trying to

attract people to maybe work from home in areas like Moray.

The other thing. I think, that's really important for us is getting 4G infill because that offers a plausible alternative a lot of the more rural areas, but we only had one 4G infill project in the last year in 2020 which was in the Glen Livet area. Getting more of that roll out in the 4G infill is again really important to us. Another thing, I think, its fairly important to bear in mind which isn't so obvious, but it's resilience of the network. We had an example not too many years ago – and I think the situation still exists in terms of the resilience of the network – where a fibre line was cut that fed to Tomintoul.

All of the – normally there were no landline phones in Tomintoul and quite a wide geographical area around it. There are also no mobile phones because all the mobile phone [back haul] goes to the same BT building in Tomintoul and then down a single fibre route. There isn't an alternative fibre route to that building. That resilience, I think, is important. We ended up with a police van being stationed in Tomintoul 24/7 for I think about 10 days to provide radio access for anybody needing the 999 service which isn't really all that acceptable in this day and age. The resilience of the network is really important in these more rural areas which maybe only have single fibre lines in and out.

Robbie McGhee: Yep, okay, I completely agree. I mean, there's lots of work underway

between – and lots of engagement between the main telecoms' operators and

obviously in rural Scotland Openreach are the most important of those. Just about how

we can get more resilience and indeed, the kind of incident you referred to in Tomintoul

was obviously much discussed and I think there's been lots of improvements that have

even been made after that. It's something that clearly is on our agenda. Latterly, I think,

the network has proved really resilient when they were put under huge pressure back

in March.

I think everybody was a little bit – I know speaking personally, I was pretty worried about would the networks fall over with the amount of people using them and obviously using them in completely different ways with mobile coverage and broadband coverage being used with city centres and concentrations there. They did hold up pretty well which is good, but you know, clearly in rural areas, we know how important that is. As I say, I think there's lots of things happening at a national level. Clearly we're seeing a lot of emergency services transition over to a 4G network, so clearly there's a lot of investment that's happening in new mast infrastructure and part of that will see fibre and new resilient fibre introduced as well.

Clearly, we've been working really hard to make sure that it's not just the emergency services that benefit from that, the wider community. I think there is a real richness and diversity of infrastructure that's been building up, both through some commercial investment, but obviously through the programmes that we funded as well. I think, it will – it contributes to that far more positive picture I think in terms of resilience of networks in rural areas.

John Swinney: Thanks Robbie. We'll come to James Stockan now and then I'll come

to Paul Wheelhouse and then Alex Gallagher. James.

James Stockan: Yeah, thank you very much Deputy First Minister. I think this is the

most important subject that we have at the moment as far as I'm concerned. It's just

this whole connectivity because it's going to feed into every strand of what we do. I've

got one or two questions that – I think we are in a position particularly with the voucher

scheme, so many people now [flooding off of the] voucher, but there doesn't seem to

be any support for back haul or other people to them on board and I just want to know

how that works because I think we're going to have a lot of disappointment if we can't

deliver against that.

The other issue I have, being – speaking from the [connection with the] poorest speed

places in the country, how on earth do we make sure that the programme delivers as

quickly as possible, because this is the transformational moment for us. There's many

people coming here to work now. I know of three young couples who have come from

the finance sector in London, they've come back here. These are the kind of jobs that

we want to get, how do we make sure that they can live – and all our islands, not just in

the towns.

Robbie McGhee: Thanks James. I mean, as I say, I think on that point, certainly back

haul is a huge feature of the R100 programme. The back haul capacity within the

Highlands and Islands will be vastly increased as a result of the building. Indeed, we

should also point out that the Highlands and Islands DSSB contract also contributed a

huge of amount of new back haul high bandwidth back haul which just underpins so

many things. It underpins broadband coverage, but also mobile coverage. Even things

like data centre developments that I touched on briefly all require back haul, so I think

again, [unclear] the investment that we've already plus what is coming down the track, I

think, will certainly offer a far richer set of options for people.

I think in terms of the – and obviously, vouchers are part of that. I think in terms of the

delivery timescales, yeah, absolutely we've – the onus is going to be on, as I

mentioned, to spring into action as soon as we've got that contract signed. We've got –

BT have obviously got an established supply chain across the Highlands and Islands

which is [raring] to go. Obviously, we're just working through the updated submission

bid part of which the implementation outlines the new delivery timescales and we'll be

in a position to share details of that once the contracts are signed.

These are massive civil engineering projects and obviously fibre to premises and the delivery of back haul – it take a bit of time to deliver, but we've kind of got the vouchers that are there in some cases as an interim solution, but rest assured, I think it is in everyone's interests including BT's, ourselves to try and do whatever we can to get back some of that year that we've lost where we – as we said earlier – talked to lawyers rather than network engineers.

John Swinney: Thanks Robbie. We'll take Alex Gallagher and then Paul Wheelhouse

and then I think that draws it all together. Alex, first of all and then Paul.

Alex Gallagher: Thanks Deputy First Minister. Yeah, just a small point on resilience.

You may or may not know, but a spur is coming from the subsea cable to Irvine. I don't

know if that increases busy lines or not, but it's worth mentioning. The one thing I would

mention – it's off the digital issue, that's why I waited until the end – is about the

endorsements. We've been asked to endorse a redefinition of the project programme. I

was wondering if I could work community wealth building into that so that every project

takes into account community wealth building principles. If I could do that with all our

papers in the council.

John Swinney: Thanks Alex. A very important point there which links up to the other

conversation that we've had this afternoon. Thank you for that. Paul.

Paul Wheelhouse: Thanks, DFM. I appreciate being brought in. I'll just do very quick

points. One just for Graham Leadbitter's benefit that I understand the [Little Mill] mast

which he referenced in Moray is completed. It's just waiting for EE to be able to start

the services there so that one is largely complete. I take his point about the wider issue

about 4G coverage. Actually, in terms of the interim voucher, which Robbie references

in his excellent presentation, there was reference to interim vouchers. They are in

some cases, using 4G as a solution so that ties in with what Margaret was saying.

I want to thank Margaret for the meeting I had with her recently were we had a useful discussion of how we can tie together the work the council's doing under the City Region deal and R100. There's obviously scope for collaboration there to use the funds that are available to Margaret and Highland Council to try and up the fibre to premises level in the Highland Council area. That's all I had to say, Deputy First Minister, but thanks very much for all the contributions.

John Swinney: Thanks Paul. Anyone else that wants to come in lastly. I don't think

there's any other indications. Robbie, do you want to come back in and sum up the

good points there.

Robbie McGhee: Just on that final point that was raised very briefly just about some

of the subsea connectivity and potential for a subsea cable to come into Irvine and to

Caithness as well. There's another opportunity that's live. These are really important

because – not necessarily for broadband coverage, but it's more some of the wider

economic opportunities that exist around data and particularly around data centres

because obviously, this vast network of subsea cables that link countries together,

Scotland has seemed – certainly compared to the rest of the UK – Scotland has not

had the level of investment in international cables and that does play into the resilience

issues that were raised earlier on.

It is something that we've been through HostinScotland – an organisation that we set up. We've been trying to encourage the kind of opportunities around new subsea cables and as I say, the one that was mentioned in Irvine, another on in Caithness that links into potentially a new tidal power data centre development. These are really exciting development opportunities which you only have to look at the example of Ireland who've used really good fibre connectivity, which we're going to have R100, alongside a strategic coordinated approach to attract data centre investment.

They've really seen that thrive. It's a real hothouse part of the economy and clearly I think Scotland is well placed to capitalise on that and it plays squarely into the wider theme of net-zero and carbon reduction as well. If we can do that in a way that builds from a low base but builds data centres that are being in nature and can contribute to the climate change policy objectives as well. I think, again, just reiterating that was a really useful point to raise.

John Swinney: Thanks Robbie. I think it goes without saying that the focus on digital

– James Stockan made this point, Alastair Cooper made it as well. This is an

absolutely fundamental proposition which provides the opportunity to build new

economic opportunities. There's obviously been a lot of frustration about the contract in

the north. We're thankfully a bit beyond that now, but it gives us the chance to really

utilise the capacity that this offers us. I'm struck – going back to some

work Highlands and Islands Enterprise initiated quite a number of years ago which was

about leading a debate about what – not so much – obviously there's a lot of

campaigning and agitation to secure connectivity, all of which is very important, but to

then think the stage beyond that which is what are we going to use this for and what

are we going to make the economic opportunities out of it. HIE led on some of those

arguments and the case for taking that forward is critical. That's been a helpful

discussion to advance some of these points. I think also in the discussion, we need to

reflect the strategic economic opportunities for the Highlands and Islands. One of the

things that COHI has been very good at has been about identifying where should we all

put our collective efforts to try to advance some of those propositions from which can

come significant economic gains. Again, the illustration that Alastair Cooper made in

Shetland of a collection of different things – Viking Wind Farm, space port, the fishing

industry et cetera – with the right degree of surrounding infrastructure, these can turn

into very significant economic opportunities so I think we need to continue to focus our

thinking on how that can be applied across the Highlands and Islands. Thank you all for

your contributions there. We're now going to move to close up today's discussions and

we will have a set of outcomes. Now, I believe the outcome slides are ready for us so

Andrew, do you want to tell me exactly that's going to happen.

IT Support: They are coming onto your screen just as slideshows so you should be

able to see them.

John Swinney: Just move through them and I'll [inaudible]. Outcome 1 – Convention –

this is in relation to regional impacts. The Convention welcomed and endorsed a

comprehensive paper on economic recovery with particular focus on key areas of

interest for Highlands and Islands. Members highlighted a very positive, ambitious,

long-term outlook for the Highlands and Islands with strong opportunities for a number

of areas including a green recovery. However, the short-term will require increased

vigilance and a re-doubling of efforts are national, regional and community levels to

ensure that those worst hit by the COVID crisis are not left behind and are fully

supported acknowledging particularly, the non-COVID mental health harms related to

the pandemic.

Okay, do you want to go to the next slide, Andrew. Now, have I missed one Andrew or

is that – we've gone to building a greener economy. Was that a…

IT Support: Sorry, there are two slides for outcome 1.

John Swinney: Right. The Convention identified the importance of increased

communication between partners and left open the discussion on how to strengthen

the regional economic structures with HIE committing to take this discussion forward in

the coming weeks and months. These discussions should focus on ensuring the

correct structures are in place to define and drive the region's infrastructure

requirements, shape the critical COVID support such as the Young Persons Guarantee

and other labour market interventions, drive the region's shared opportunities for a

green recovery, improve engagement sharing of information, ensure that recovery

plans are complimented, take advantage of synergies across the region.

There's an understanding that place-based cross-sector support for individuals, businesses and communities will be needed for immediate resilience through this winter, but also to be resilient for sustainable recovery in the medium and longer term. Okay, any points that anyone wants to raise on those in the chat function. Does that reflect discussions. I'm not seeing anything there, so we'll move onto the building a greener recovery.

COHI members agreed the potential to develop opportunities through the green and blue economy, noting the importance of partners working together to deliver activity that maximises the region's natural advantage. Particular areas that COHI agreed to develop further include infrastructure investment to enhance connectivity and to develop and improve capability of ports and harbours, developing a delivery road map for realising key opportunities with a focus on how public funding can help unlock additional private investment and the circular economy including the deposit return scheme and options to address additional costs of rural waste.

Development of green sustainable tourism with opportunities for wider supply chain benefits, local supply chain benefits, connectivity and technology development to support local service delivery and remote working opportunities and COHI members also looked at the need to develop longer term funding certainty to develop these more strategic activities. Okay, outcome 1, Graham Leadbitter has asked me for a bit more emphasis on the importance of infrastructure investment in outcome 1 which we can certainly ensure is added into that, Graham.

Alex Gallagher: Chair, my comment doesn't seem to have been noted again. I had

mentioned nuclear modular. I don't know if it should be mentioned here or it should be

mentioned in the minutes, but I'm not asking for anyone to endorse the policy of

nuclear, but I think the point was made and should be noted.

John Swinney: Okay, we can make sure that's reflected in the transcript, Alex. We're

just trying to draw together the conclusions of the discussions, but that will certainly be

recorded in the minutes. Anything else on that? Simon Hodge is asking; would the road

map bullet be best focused on the blue economy? We could certainly enable that, yep.

Okay, can we move on then, Andrew and outcome 3 – Gaelic.

COHI members confirmed a commitment to maintain the engagement and dialogue

with Gaelic communities to look closely at what is in place, what else could be done in

speaker communities and for this discussion to feed into the next version of the

National Plan for Gaelic. COHI members also committed to continue to make progress

with the initiative Gaelic a Faster Rate of Progress and in particular to consider how the

linked areas of tourism, heritage and creative industries can be strengthened in this

initiative. Any observations on that? Okay, we'll press on Andrew.

Population and fragile communities – COHI members endorsed the paper on

population and fragile communities produced by Argyll and Bute Council, Comhairle

nan Eilean Siar and HIE and agreed the following recommendation that the acuteness

of the issues in relation to population decline in Argyll and Bute, the Outer Hebrides

and Caithness and Sutherland requires a targeted inter-agency policy response, but

this inter-agency response should consider options to rapidly impact on population

issues in Argyll and Bute, the Outer Hebrides and Caithness and Sutherland

recognising that communities across rural Scotland including other islands not

specifically referenced in the paper are facing their population challenges.

The work of this response should be developed in such a way as to be replicable across other Highland and Island areas. This subregional population response should also consider the feasibility and potential impact of the establishment of a West Coast Innovation Zone and other appropriate policy interventions. Okay.

Alex Gallagher: Sorry, Chair again, I had asked that any initiatives or pilots should

include Arran. I know they've got other islands. I was asking for a specific inclusion.

John Swinney: Okay doke. We'll add that in Alex, and I think obviously the issues

around the islands in the North Ayrshire area – Arran, Cumbrae – we should make sure

that they are in no way bypassed in addressing the issues that are stake there because

they may have similar but also more challenging other issues in that respect. Okay,

community wealth building.

The Convention discussed the opportunities to further develop community wealth

building across the Highlands and Islands noting he Scottish Government commitment

to work with Comhairle nan Eilean Siar to develop a community wealth building action

that reflects and builds on pre-existing practice. It was noted that any lessons on

learning from this process should be shared across the region, particularly where this

can support population increases and involvement of young people.

Now, going back to the earlier slide – I'll deal with this. Members heard the [emerging]

next steps for Comhairle nan Eilean Siar action plan focused on profiling key pre-

existing community wealth building projects and the benefits they deliver, working with

Comhairle nan Eilean Siar as an anchor institution, expand on and share lessons from

existing strategies which incorporates CWB principles such as the Outer Hebrides

Community Wealth Recovery Strategy and build on positive sectoral roles by exploring

potential for technology, energy or marine sectors to be seen as anchors for the region,

HIE and local authorities supportive of the principle and partners agreed for the need.

A bespoke and flexible approach to develop [unclear] enhance islands. The ideas presented were agreed as a good basis on which to develop a CWB action plan in the Outer Hebrides that we can learn from. Scottish Government should now progress work with Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, engage with other partners where appropriate and report on delivery progress at the next COHI in 2021.

In relation to the [material] population, Chris Brodie is suggesting can we bring the

importance of attracting and retaining work age population into the outcomes. In

relation to population I think that's a critical point. Yeah, I think that's – any

observations there?

Paul Wheelhouse: Just a couple, DFM. It's Paul here, sorry. Just as a mention, I

think, earlier on by the Bòrd na Gàidhlig where they are potentially using Gaelic as an

asset in terms of community wealth building, but also Angus Campbell made a good

reference to using natural resources as well as part of the community wealth building

approach. That seemed to have support in the chat room at the time.

John Swinney: Okay, we can add those points in. Graham Leadbitter is suggesting

on community wealth building, working with Scotland Excel to develop procurement

options that maintain efficient procurement in the support of community wealth building

which is a good point as well. Okay, anyone else. Okay, on outcome 6 – replacement

of the European Structural Investment Funds post-EU exit. COHI members restated

that EU funding is fundamental to life in the Highlands and Islands.

The lack of information provided by the UK Government regarding the development and operation of their proposed replacement to the European Structural Funds – the UK Shared Prosperity Fund is concerning. COHI members agreed that the Prosperity Fund must maintain the momentum of existing funding and the Scottish position must be predicated upon regional policy making to ensure funds targeted to meet the needs of all Scotland's communities. It is proposed that any replacement aims will be focused on promoting place-based economic development and cohesion, helping communities across Scotland to improve key social, economic and wellbeing performance indicators.

These recommendations are currently being considered by Scottish ministers and will be published in the upcoming weeks and further feedback from COHI members will be welcomed. Yes, that area of policy is [unclear]. During this meeting, members will group data and current Scottish position on the Prosperity Fund and the continued lack of information provided. Members were informed that Scottish recommendations will be released in the upcoming weeks and comments from members focused heavily upon ensuring any governance model was regionally focused. Obviously, this is very much a work in progress, the whole area of the Shared Prosperity Fund.

Any other observations? Okay, Andrew any more material we've got on the last conversation yet. COHI welcomed R100 and related developments and the cross-cutting importance of digital as enhanced by COVID and the prevalence of working from home. There was agreement that COHI members should work closely together to innovate and sweat those developing assets to boost economic and social impacts, but there's more to do collaborative and education and business transformation. COHI also noted the work undertaken on identifying RTOs and the strong alignment with current and emerging strategic projects, especially those within growth deals.

The research can inform the wider development of economic recovery and growth planning for the region. Strong collaboration to plan and implement strategic projects which can contribute to realising these opportunities will be required. That's the final slide. Any last observations that anyone's got on any of those slides that draw any of that together?

Alex Gallacher: Can I just say, I think an infrastructure fund was mentioned a coftimes – I

can't remember which issues. My papers are out of sync with the agenda, but it was

certainly at the – fragile economies was mentioned and one of the other papers. An

island infrastructure fund was mentioned by myself and others.

Paul Wheelhouse: [I'll say about that if I] may DFM – it's Paul here. I think that was

the £30 million that Michael Matheson announced as part of the Infrastructure

Investment Plan which is in – that will be National Island Plan, so its £30 million

available capital in island communities.

Alex Gallagher: :Okay, I'm not absolutely sure that that's the same thing, but [unclear] that's good, thanks.

John Swinney: Okay, well we'll make sure that – we can take these points and make

sure they are reflected in the records of the discussion and if they need to focus the

future in the outcomes, we can do that. Gary Coutts has made a reference to the

importance of working with micro-business in relation to business transformation and

digital opportunities and certainly we can reflect in the commentary. Okay, any other

points?

[Over speaking]

John Swinney: Margaret.

Margaret Davidson: Sorry, I don't know the – well, maybe my chat didn't get through.

I was just going to say I think though a little wordy, the outcomes today are good and

very much picking up on the key issues that came through today. Even the ones when

you and I were away somewhere else, seem to have been dealt with very well. I was

just really keen that we keep hold of the idea that we've got to get clear regional

messages through together so I believe in the first section we agreed that HIE would

pull us together. Can they do that as soon as possible? We've got the Shared

Prosperity Fund or am I imagining that. Yep, thank you.

[Over speaking]

John Swinney: I'm not very sure you have got the Shared Prosperity Fund Margaret,

to be honest.

John Swinney: We'll wait and see, and we will hopefully be proved wrong. I'm sure

HIE can draw it together. I don't know if Alistair Dodds wants to say anything on that.

Alastair Dodds: Sorry John, yeah. We're happy to pick up – Charlotte and I'll contact

local authorities and other relevant public sector organisations across the Highlands

and Islands.

John Swinney: Okay, thank you Alistair. Right, any other last observations?

Alex Gallagher: Lot of thanks for the chairs.

John Swinney: Thank you Alex. It's been – I'm sorry I've not been able to be here the

entire day, but I've spent most of the day with Margaret Davidson actually, because

we're…

Margaret Davidson: Again [laughs].

[Over speaking]

John Swinney: Margaret can take account – can explain that I was not skiving

somewhere else.

Margaret Davidson: No chance [laughs].

John Swinney: I think obviously needs must in these circumstances. I think today has

been a helpful opportunity for us to reengage. I don't think technology has been that

significant an inhibitor to our dialogue and conversation. I think we're all adapting and

adjusting to new ways of working and I think the chat function has still enabled that

open, frank conversation which I think all partners know and I have tried to encourage

in the Convention of the Highlands and Islands over these years. I think it's important

that we continue to do that, and we've managed to do that. I think the point that

Margaret makes about the regional perspective is important. We were wrestling with

that on the call with council leaders as well about the importance of recognising

difference within the country and listening to that and that's what we are endeavouring

to do.

We'll take forward the outcomes and make progress on them. I think what I would say

to colleagues is that in terms of the strategic challenges that we face, the last

discussion there about strategic initiatives and priorities across the Highlands and

Islands is an approach that we should never lose sight of. It's really important we have

a constant focus on our activity and also recognise the importance of the digital

enablers that – or the digital enabling that is possible through R100 which is a very

significant opportunity.

Then, obviously, there's – we don't go very far without dealing with the issues of

COVID and these are not straightforward challenges and we'll have to work

collaboratively together on addressing the economic, social and health harms that are

coming from COVID in what's a really challenging situation. In respect I record the

government's thanks to local authorities and partners for the work that you are doing to

help in the national effort to navigate our way through this difficult situation.

Thank you all and I wish you well and look forward I hope – I think the next session is

in the spring is due to be in Shetland. I do hope we able to come to Shetland, Alastair

and look forward to that practical possibility in the spring. If not, we'll be able to take

forward our conversation digitally into the bargain. Thank you all very much for your

participation in today's event and I wish you all well. Thank you.

END OF MEETING

................
................

In order to avoid copyright disputes, this page is only a partial summary.

Google Online Preview   Download