Eastside Legal Assistance Program



AHW - KYR Tenants Edition 10.14.20Thu, 11/19 9:40AM ? 1:25:44SUMMARY KEYWORDStenant, landlord, moratorium, protections, shane, rent, eviction, state, lease, tenancy, attorney, important, provision, people, violation, situation, agree, question, folks, katharineSPEAKERSKaren Studders, Shane Woerner, Chris Lovings, Mallory Van Abbema, Emma Scalzo, Katharine NydenEmma Scalzo 00:40All right, I think we're good to go.Mallory Van Abbema 01:13evening, everybody. Thanks so much for bearing with us. We've got a Facebook Live Stream going simultaneously so we have a wider audience than just is here with us on the zoom. I'm Mallory, I work with the Housing Development Consortium (HDC). And we are so grateful that you were able to take time out of your evening to join us for this tenants rights. Know your rights workshop hosted by Eastside Legal Assistance Program. HDC hosts an affordable housing week annually, and we are pleased that we were able to transition to this virtual format, or it's a little bit unusual for us all. So thanks for being here. We have a lot to cover. And we've got some experts that are going to help us understand what protections are currently available for both at the local level, the state level and also the federal level as far as eviction moratoriums go, and other insights that are really important for renters in our state and in King County. I'm going to pass it over to Chris Lovings with Eastside Legal Assistance Program now to introduce our presenters for this evening.Chris Lovings 02:21Hey, everyone. Good evening. Thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate you being here of us to kind of learn and hear more about what's going on with tenant rights currently. So let's back up really quickly. My name is Chris Lovings, I work as the Community Engagement Manager for Eastside Legal Assistance Program. Our organizations whole goal was to make the legal system more accessible to those most in need. We do that through a variety of ways, legal clinics, we have housing stability, attorneys that are going to be hearing from it a little bit. We have a domestic violence program that connects domestic violence survivors with legal help to help them out with their situations. And a lot of work that we're also doing during this time has been Know Your Rights sessions where we talk about different topics that are relevant in civil legal aid. We've done some before on Social Security, public benefits, and many around immigration. And last but not least, of course, tenant rights. And that's kind of why we're here today in the form of this webinar. So want you to sit back and enjoy yourself. as we're going along. Feel free to type any questions in the chat. We'll be sure to answer them at our q&a session on the back end of this. Without any further ado, I'm going to introduce us to our two speakers tonight. So first up is Katharine Nyden. She is ELAP's Housing Stability Program Staff Attorney. She provides advice and representation to low income residents of South King County, who face a civil legal issue that threatens their housing stability. Katharine obtained her JD from the University of Washington School of Law, where she focused on public defense and disability. Katharine joined ELAP in August of 2020. And through her work, she hopes to help support safe and stable housing for all which is crucial to thriving communities. Our second speaker is going to be Shane Woerner. He him is a staff attorney responsible for 11 Kirkland focus housing stability program. Shane provides advice representation to residents of Kirkland who are facing the legal issue that threatens their housing stability, primarily in the area of landlord tenant law. Shane obtained his JD from the JD from the U dub law school and began his career as a frequent volunteer attorney at the housing Justice Project. It was there that he developed his passion for housing issues and defending the rights of tenants. Join ELAP in Fall 2019. We're going to pass it over to Shane and Katharine once again, thank you all so much for being here.Shane Woerner 04:46All right. Hi, everybody. I'm kind of kick things off here. Thank you, Chris, for that intro, and Mallory as well. And I just want to give a special thanks real quick to Matt And me and everyone else at hdc for helping us put this on tonight and letting us be part of one of the many awesome events going on for affordable housing week. So with that said, I am going to go ahead and share my screen because we've got a PowerPoint that we just want to go through, as we're kind of walking through the various levels of protection that are available to Washington tenants. Okay, that is a little bit of where I want it to be. So I'm going to back up just a second here. All right. Okay, now at the beginning of the actual presentation. I am going to start off with some just general comments, before we begin. Now, obviously, this webinars just going to be designed to provide general information about what kind of protections are in place, especially ones that are related to the covid 19 pandemic. It's not meant to address any specific individual case. The webinar does not create an attorney client relationship between myself and Catherine or any of the participants. If you do have specific legal questions or if you feel you need legal advice, then we would urge you to contact a legal aid provider will be giving you some links and some information on what organizations might be available for you to reach out to. So getting into sort of the meat of the law, when we think about what what laws protect tenants in Washington, you kind of can look at it as three tiers of sort of jurisdiction. The baseline sort of floor is set at a federal level. And at that level, we have a an order that was published by the CDC, on I believe, September 4, that establishes a nationwide eviction moratorium. And then sort of above that we have our statewide Washington eviction moratorium. And then in some cities, you have city by city cases where the city council may have enacted certain ordinances or laws that create even additional protections above that. So an example would be cities that have passed just cars, ordinances, things like that. So I want to kind of quickly go over the basics of the CDC moratorium. By and large, the tenant protections in Washington are created by our statewide eviction moratorium when it comes to COVID related protections. But like I said, this order was published on September 4, banning residential evictions throughout the country. It does not apply in states that already have in place a moratorium that provides equal or greater levels of public health protection. So when we're asking ourselves, does this apply in Washington? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There is one scenario in particular where it might apply. For the most part, the protections that we have under the governor's proclamation are stronger than what's provided by the CDC eviction moratorium. There is a possible exception when it comes to two of the exemptions in the statewide moratorium. So to kind of explain that, the I want to explain that without getting too much, far too far ahead of myself, but basically, the state moratorium does allow landlords to terminate a tenancy after they've given 60 day written notice of an intent to either sell or occupy a property. The CDC moratorium, on the other hand, does not include the ability to just issue a no cause eviction, like that. So what does the CDC moratorium focus on primarily nonpayment? evictions, which means that federally tenants can still be evicted if they violate other provisions of their lease agreements. However, that does not include just a simple no cause termination. So without getting too far into the weeds. What that basically means is that there is a legal argument that you could make that the exception in the governor's statewide moratorium violates the CDC moratorium insofar as it allows tenants to be evicted without cause. Given those two exceptions that I mentioned. And I should also note, as it shows on the slide, that moratorium is set to expire December 31. Coincidentally, at the same date as the state moratorium, which has just recently, very recently been extended, but we'll get into that. So I do want to point out that the protections of the CDC moratorium are not automatic, the tenant does have to take action, before they can be protected. Under that moratorium. The CDC along with the order published a declaration form that tenants must fill out or they must sign it, and it's signed under penalty of perjury, and then they must provide their landlord with a copy of that form in order to be protected under the federal moratorium. So in order to gain these protections, you have to certify that the qualifications listed on this slide apply to you and your family. So those being that you've done your best to obtain all available government assistance for rent or housing, and that your income will either be no more than 99,000 for a single filer, or 198,000, if you file jointly, alternatively, that you are not required to report income to the IRS in 2004 2019. And then finally, you also are qualified under that portion if you received a stimulus check under the cares act. In addition, you also need to be able to certify that you cannot pay your full rent due to a loss of household income, work hours or wages, or that you were laid off or that you suffered extraordinary out of pocket medical expenses. You also need to be able to certify that you're making best efforts to make timely partial payments as much as you can afford, taking into account other non discretionary expenses. And then finally, you need to be able to certify that if you were to be evicted, you would likely become homeless, you need to move into a homeless shelter, or you would need to move into a shared residence. So I think I would caution tenants or folks working with tenants to consult with an attorney prior to signing this declaration. Like I said it is it does have to be certified, signed under penalty of perjury. So if you cannot genuinely claim to qualify for each of these, there could be some legal risks there. So I think if this is a declaration form that you're thinking of filling out and giving to your landlord, it will be wise to consult with an attorney first. And like I said, as we get further into tonight's presentation, we'll provide some names of organizations and links, who might be able to help with that. So as I kind of went over very briefly, it seems like just from looking at the state moratorium versus the federal moratorium, the Washington statewide moratorium gives a lot more protections. I mean, there. You can't be, as Kathryn will explain, you can't be evicted under our state moratorium for those additional violations of the leases like you can under the CDC moratorium. The reason why it may still be relevant to Washington tenants is like I said, you can conceivably make an argument that the 60 day notice talkie pyre sell rental property that is built into our state moratorium is a lesser protection than what's provided by the CDC order. So this is definitely something that you would want to talk to an attorney about because there's a lot of uncertainty over how a court would actually rule on this. This is a brand new issue. Obviously the order was published a little over a month ago. I've personally heard you know, I've heard it turned out in the tenants favor. I've heard it turned out in the landlord's favor. So it's there's a very big question mark there over whether a court would agree with that argument, or whether it would just be a blanket decision of no the state moratorium provides greater protection. So it applies across the board. So it's just something I wanted to cover briefly point out. And just, I guess, emphasize that, be aware that this protection is here. But if at all possible, it would be to your benefit to speak with attorney and attorney first, to see if there to see if it applies to your situation. So having gone over that, I'm going to pass things off to Katherine, and she's going to start going sort of in detail on the protections afforded in the statewide moratorium.Katharine Nyden 15:44Awesome. Thank you, Shane. And so it is important to make the disclaimer that's noted at the bottom of this slide. Slide as that we don't actually know what the newest iteration of moratorium says. So on. On Thursday, I think it was Governor Inslee did indicate who is going to re issue or extend the moratorium. But it sounds like there are some changes. We just don't know what those are. Yet I've heard through the grapevine that they're minor. But we're not privy to that yet. So just keep in mind, all of the information that we're providing tonight is based on that most recent draft, that we have access to the 20 19.3 draft issued on July 24. And so I would just encourage you if you have legal issues moving forward or have clients that have those issues, to try to find the most current draft once it is issued. And it is extended, I think like Shane said, until the end of the year, so December 31 at 11:59pm. And that's that date lines up with the CDC moratorium expiration as well. Shane, do you mind clicking the next slide? Thank you. And so we thought it would be helpful to talk about who's covered by Washington's moratorium just because it is a little more expensive than I think folks would assume. So it covers some less traditional tenancy and living situations. I outlined the more commonly understood you know, situations that people are facing, including, you know, renting an apartment, a house or a room. mobile home tenants are also covered, but also people that are staying in hotels, motels, places like Airbnb ease. And long term care facilities are also explicitly mentioned in the moratorium, as well as RVs and camping areas. And so folks that are in those situations can also assert protections under the under Washington's eviction moratorium specifically. And the other thing that I think people get confused by and I've seen come up in cases are situations where the lease has actually expired, or there is no lease, it's a verbal lease, all of those situations are covered. And so if you have tenants whose leases or if you are a tenant whose lease has expired during the effective period of the moratorium, they all of the provisions still apply in terms of the bar on eviction. And I think I covered everything. Thank you. And the other thing to keep in mind is there are three major exceptions to the eviction moratorium in Washington. And so they are those 260 day, pieces related to a landlord moving into a property, so to occupy themselves or selling a property if they decide to sell the house or unit. The other exception to the ban, which means that landlords can evict or file an eviction and these cases are if they allege a significant and immediate risk to health or safety of others, or, you know, some sort of safety risk created by the tenant, the thing I would sort of keep in mind is that they do have to allege that threat with particularity. So if you just have a landlord that files sort of a, you know, a bold assertion and a pleading saying there's a safety threat, and there's no documentation provided or there's no specificity as to what happened like no police response. That is not an appropriate use of that exception. The other thing that I've seen happen, or seen come up when I was volunteering with HIV was situations where they use the person's mental health issue as as they classify that as as health and safety risk. And I think a lot of times that's going to constitute an abuse of that exception. And so I would just encourage, if you're a tenant who experiences you know, is certainly served with a an eviction complaint or experiences a threat of exclusion or eviction, on that basis to talk to an attorney if you can, because it's just the thing to sort of be mindful of they may be abusing that exception and you may Be able to fight back. And then we kind of just wanted to cover some things to keep in mind that are outlined in the moratorium that are not allowed. And so even the threat of eviction does constitute a violation of the moratorium for non payment of rent. And so a lot of people think, you know, it has to go through the full process, I have to be like, served with pleadings or something like that for it to constitute a moratorium violation. But even landlords threatening tenants related to an eviction does constitute a violation. So just keep that in mind. And serving or enforcing any notice requiring tenants to vacate. And then there's a list of all the notices that are applicable there. It's not an exhaustive, exhaustive list. And so there could be other ways that landlords are violating the moratorium or being creative in the ways that they're violating the moratorium. So keep that in mind that there may be weird things on there that also count. They're also not allowed to charge late fees for non payment, or late payment of rent. Another one that I saw read recently was new imposition of utility charges, which I would also say is an inappropriate violation of the moratorium. And so I think at large, yeah, again, if you can talk to an attorney, if there's some sort of new fee or raised rent or anything like that, and definitely seek out legal help. The other thing you can do that we'll cover more in later slides is reported to the attorney general's office as a violation of the moratorium. And they can sometimes follow up and talk to your landlord. And more things that the landlord can't do. Charging rent when the tenant did not did not have access to or live in the unit because of COVID-19. So if you're in a situation where you did get sick, and you're hospitalized, or there's, for some reason didn't have access to your unit or home because of the pandemic, and they cannot charge rent for that time. I haven't actually had that come up. I don't know if Shane has, but just a handy thing to be mindful of. And they can't like I think I said in the last slide can't increase or threat to increase rent. And retaliation is a big one that I feel like is happening pretty consistently for a lot of our clients, landlords retaliating after tenants or asserting that they're protected under the moratorium, I would argue this can look a lot of different ways. You know, it can be I've seen, then, like landlords cutting off certain privileges that were understood under the lease, privileges probably isn't the right word, but like, you know, use of parts of the property or something like that. So I would think broadly in terms of what retaliation can look like. And if it feels like retaliation from your landlord, would encourage you to report it to the attorney general's office. And there is an online complaint form in Spanish and English. And you can also call the other thing that I just found out today, because it came up in a case is they may be able to take anonymous complaints, they basically have said they don't guarantee that they can keep it anonymous, but they'll do their best. We have this come up for tenants that are undocumented or worried about the repercussions if their landlords are aware that they made a report. I wish it was easier to do that anonymous process. But it does sound like they'll do their best, but it's not guaranteed that it will stay anonymous if you report to the ag.23:38And, Catherine, if you don't mind, I think I just want to jump in and share a couple of thoughts on those first two points to these prohibitions. Especially so the first one when it comes to landlords being prohibited from charging rent or other charges. For a time during which a tenant did not have access to the unit due to COVID-19. I think probably what, what the governor was going for there was protections for like college students or anyone else who lives in seasonal housing. So if that applies to you, or if that's the situation of someone you're helping, I would just keep that prohibition in mind. Because that, you know, if if say some college students were going to move into an apartment, then COVID happened, they all had to go back home to stay with their families, and the landlord tried to charge them rent for that school period. Anyway, that could arguably be a violation of this provision. So that's just one thing to keep in mind. And then I've also seen a lot of questions about landlords increasing rent. So the the language Have. And again, this is this is the order from July 24. We're anticipating a new one being issued at any time. So, for the proclamation that was issued July 24. And last through October 15, the language on on rent increases is, to me seems pretty straightforward. It just says that their landlords are prohibited from increasing the rent. So even if a tenant was served with a rent increase notice, you know, just before that prohibition was put in place, I think, arguably, it can't take effect until the moratorium is actually over. So that's just one thing that I've seen up to come up a lot in questions is, you know, the land my landlord was going to increase my rent before this started. Can he still do that? I would say the answer to that is no, not while the moratorium is in place. Because when you look at that prohibition, it doesn't say the landlord's You know, it just says they put they're prohibited from increasing the rent. That's it. I mean, well, it actually says more than that. But when you look at like the the sort of the functional language in there, landlords are prohibited from increasing or threatening to increase the rate of rent. So that's just something I wanted to tack on there. And then.26:30So, Katharine, do you want to keep going? Or do you want me to take over?Katharine Nyden 26:35Either way we can trade off that works.26:37Okay. So yeah, this is I think, this is a big part of this moratorium that is going to be important, both now and potentially in the future. So this slide references a particular provision of the statewide moratorium under which when a tenant has been unable to pay rent, as a result of the covid 19 outbreak, that is the one that's the one particular qualification that that tenants need to be aware of. In order to be protected by this provision, the inability to pay rent has to be related to COVID-19. So it doesn't have to mean that a tenant was actually laid off or actually got sick and couldn't work. I think that it applies a little bit more broadly than that. There just has to be some connection to the covid 19 outbreak in order for this protection to apply to a tenant. And if that is the case, then landlords are prohibited from treating unpaid rent as an enforceable debts. So they can't attempt to collect it through a collections agency. They can't threaten to try to collect it, they can't try to file an unlawful detainer action, which is the actual eviction lawsuit. They can't try to get it through any other type of judicial action, with one exception, and that exception is that the landlord can demonstrate by a preponderance of the evidence, preponderance of the evidence just meaning. You know, more than more than half basically so 50.1% of the evidence indicates that the landlord did offer this to the tenant. And that is a reasonable repayment plan based on the tenants individual financial, health and other circumstances. So if the landlord can show that they offered that repayment plan and the tenant either refused or failed to comply with it, then at that point, the landlord can try to collect the unpaid rent. There is a little bit of vagueness in the way this is written as far as whether it will continue to apply after the moratorium expires. Everything I've heard is that that was Governor Inslee, his intention was for this protection to go on into the future even after this moratorium expires. However, just going from the way that the proclamation is written, the language does not say that. So that's something to be aware of is this. This protection is certainly in place during the moratorium. But as to whether it will continue to apply and continue to protect tenants after the moratorium expires. is a little bit more up in the air. It's unfortunately just not written explicitly into the text of the governor's proclamation, despite the fact that it seems to have been his intention. So I think that more or less covers that provision. So, as far as whether a tenant should enter a repayment plan with their landlord, I think it's really important to keep in mind that the moratorium requires that the terms of the repayment plan be reasonable in specifically related to your circumstances. So it's very important that a tenant not enter into a payment plan that they know that they can't afford.30:59And because of that language, where the whether or not a repayment plan is reasonable is based only on the tenant circumstances, it does give you more leeway to go to your landlord and say, you know, look, I can't, I can't agree to these payments starting right away. But I can agree that once I have a job once I have steady income again, I can start repaying X amount of dollars every month until it's paid off. And what I've heard from the attorney general's office is they consider that to be a reasonable repayment plan. So that is just something to keep in mind. If your landlord does approach you or if a landlord approaches a tenant you are working with with a repayment plan. Just keep in mind that reasonableness requirement to any repayment plan that the property owner or landlord offers to a tenant. Okay, and so one other thing we wanted to underscore is the, what the governor has issued is an eviction moratorium, it is not a moratorium on payment of rent, rent is still due for tenants. And if it is all possible at all possible for a tenant to continue to pay rent, or even whatever they can, while being able to afford other necessities, it's really important to continue to pay that rent because if a tenant stops paying rent, because the moratorium is in place, that rent data is still going to continue accruing every month. And once this moratorium ends, that tenants going to be in a much worse place than they would have been if they had been continuing to pay rent, again, contingent on the ability to do so. So I think that's one thing we just really wanted to underscore is that rent payments are still owed, it's just that the landlord can't actually take any eviction actions against the tenant, or as we discussed, can't threaten to take certain actions against tenants. And I do think it's a smart idea to stay in contact with landlords. I know it can be difficult when you have no ability to pay rent, and your landlord keeps asking where the rent money is to just try to avoid those tense conversations altogether. But if a landlord is coming to a tenant and saying, Do you want a repayment plan, let's work on a repayment plan, I do think it's going to be important to at least engage with that landlord in good faith. Because I would be worried about any any sort of lack of communication or refusal to work with a landlord being then used as proof of, you know, a tenant refusing repayment plan, something like that, right, which then triggers that exception to that protection and allows the landlord to try and enforce that that debt, that unpaid rent as a debt. So I think that's just one thing we wanted to make a note of, you know, all things being equal, it would be best for the tenant to continue to engage their landlord in writing, it would be preferable just so that you have a written record of these communications. And yeah, I think just being and again this, so this will depend on any given tenants relationship with landlord, right, some tenants are not going to have a relationship with their landlord, where they will feel comfortable being upfront about their financial situation. But to the extent that they can do that, I think it could be beneficial to be able to say, you know, look, we've been trying to work things out with my landlord, here's all our communications in writing, we still haven't gotten to a reasonable repayment plan, but I've been working with them. Like I just, it's my opinion that that would look better. If this potentially does get to the point where the landlord is trying to push forward an eviction that would look better than if a tenant just ignored all attempts of communication from the landlord.35:41So, the next thing to point out is, if the landlord is violating the moratorium, the attorney general's office is responsible for enforcing it, it is criminally enforceable. And a complaint form is available online, we've provided the link here. So I would. And again, Katherine kind of touched on concerns, you know, if a tenant has particular concerns about being identified by a landlord as having made this complaint, or if they're worried, you know, if a tenant is undocumented and worried about giving their information to a state agency, I think those are valid concerns. If they don't apply, though, I would, I would encourage tenants to not be shy about finally filing a complaint, I have heard that the attorney general's office is pretty responsive about either responding to those complaints, or if the landlord's behavior really does violate the moratorium, then you could have someone from the ag office, call the landlord and basically, you know, inform them of their violation. Tell them to stop, you know, doing that behavior, basically. So, I do think it's worth the tenants time to make use of that and file a complaint if they believe that their landlord has been violating the moratorium. So see, and then now we're kind of getting more into things that are always illegal. These are more violations of state law that is in place under the residential landlord tenant act. So landlord lockouts, otherwise known as self help evictions, where a landlord just comes in, change the locks or, you know, basically kicks the tenant out without a court order. That is always illegal, if that's something that has happened to you or someone that you're working with, get an attorney involved as soon as possible. Then we have utility shut offs, tossing personal belongings out of the property, unless it's a case where the tenant has abandoned the property. That's that's a different situation. And then there also are retaliation provisions built into the RL ta that can serve to protect a tenant whose landlord retaliates after the tenant asserts their rights under state law. So Catherine, do you want to jump in and talk about some city by city protections.Katharine Nyden 38:40And so we just wanted to make note, and I know Shane touched on it earlier that there also may be local level protections that apply depending on where you live. And so it's just important to keep that in mind. And as always, hopefully, you'll be able to talk to an attorney about which ones might apply. And the Seattle municipal code in particular is very protective. And they also have the other thing that we didn't put on the slides is the Seattle department of construction and inspections. sdci is a really good resource for Seattle tenants that are experiencing. It can it's quite a range of issues really. But I would say Generally, if you're having you're experiencing what you think might be a violation of municipal code, or of state law to get in touch with them, I've had really good experiences on a couple of my cases, with sdci issuing notices to property owners and landlords, asking them to remedy anything you know, ranging from like leaky pipes that aren't being repaired. habitability issues have come up. Also, they have gotten involved where the house like the notices that have been issued to tenants, for the sale of a property were not done properly and sdci reach out to the landlord to issue a notice They had issued the wrong notice. Sorry, that was a confusing sentence. And, but that's a really good resource in Seattle. for actual enforcement, I have found once you're outside of Seattle, we don't really have the equivalent of sdci. And so the other areas still have ordinances, though. So keep that in mind. I'm not an expert on the minutiae of all of them. And they are probably not all listed. I just threw the ones on that came to mind. And some of these are relatively new, but they include things like bans on certain kinds of rent increases. And basically, the idea behind the just cause eviction ordinances is that you can only evict for certain reasons. And so they're outlined within the content of those city's municipal codes. And so you should be able to find it, I think, I think one or two of them might be so new that they might not be codified yet, Shane, if you know, you're welcome to jump in. But yeah, that's sort of the general overview. And I know some other cities are trying to edge closer to that, like issaquah. And there may be Yeah, I don't know, Shane, if you have any thoughts there, there may also be other folks on this call that are very knowledgeable and are on top of the legislative developments locally. But these are sort of just things to keep in mind when you're trying to assess what legal protections and potentially remedies are available to you. Because I know some of them also include relocation assistance. I know Seattle's does have provisions around things like that. So it's just really wanted to sort of flag it for everyone to keep in mind. Yeah, and41:41if you if you don't mind to, I want to kind of contrast so the the four cities on the screen here, just to kind of get into a little bit of detail on the implications, the practical implications of a city having a just cause ordinance, versus not having one. Basically, every other city in the state, outside of the ones listed on the screen. And any we haven't accounted for this. this. I mean, these laws are being passed more and more frequently, which is really positive news. But based on our knowledge, these are the cities that currently have in place. So what does it mean, if you're a resident in a city that doesn't have a just cause ordinance, unfortunately, then what applies is the state law that that residential landlord tenant act again, with respect to specifically I think the biggest implication is termination of month to month tenancies. In any other city in the state. If you are a month to month tenant, your landlord can terminate your tenancy just by issuing you with a 20 day notice. And so that, to me, is the biggest difference and why these ordinances are so important and why it's so important to be aware of whether or not the city that you're living in has a just cause ordinance. So I just wanted to kind of throw that on there.Katharine Nyden 43:14That's very helpful. Thank you, Shane. We also just wanted to cover and provide some resources where people can get help, and tenants can get help. And so as we've said, Shane and I both work for a lab, he focuses specifically on the city of Kirkland. So if you're a Kirkland resident, he can provide legal advice and representation. And Shane also has a very handy Rental Assistance Fund. So he actually has some money if you need it, which I unfortunately do not. But I have a bit of a broader service area. So I cover all of King County, with a focus on South King County, and can also provide legal advice and representation elapse main line is listed there, as well as both of our email addresses, and folks are welcome to just email us directly with questions. And if they're in need of any kind of assistance related to housing, there are also other housing Legal Aid providers listed. So housing Justice Project is a good one. They serve a ton of people, I think, largely in the Seattle area, as I understand it. And and tenant Law Center is also a good Seattle based resource. Northwest Justice Project has offices all over the state. And so if you call a there's two separate lines, I think if you call 211, you can get access to their Seattle based office. And if you call their CLEAR hotline number, which we don't have on there, but you can find it online. You can get referred out for help in other areas of the state. And then Washington law help is also just sort of a resource page. So there are a ton of tenant like self help resources and information about the state of the law and housing law. That can be really helpful. If you're proceeding pro se or without an attorney, rent assistance, so King County has an eviction prevention and Rental Assistance Program. I butcher it every time I try to say it. And they basically have a weekly lottery so your client, or you rather would apply. And then every week they send out an email letting you know if you've been selected or not. And there are some benefits to being enrolled in that program. If your landlord does agree to be bound by they basically make landlord sign an agreement that they won't evict until the end of March of 2021. And I believe they have to agree to accept three month's rent as satisfaction of like the full back owed rent amount. I don't know if Shane, I think that's right. And so there's also some additional benefits to getting into that program if your landlord agrees. United Way is another resource and Eastside for all is an organization that works with tenants. Basically, it's an organization that represents tenants on the ground, and also is involved in some policymaking efforts, as I understand it. And hoping is another one, which actually I heard today gave a bunch of money to one of my clients. So I think that's a good active resource. I know I've had a hard time sort of deciphering which, which organizations are out of money and which aren't, I don't know, shame you have you have your own money. But if you have an idea of who still has money in their pockets, I know hope link is one of them. Sorry, my screen is having trouble right now. Salvation Army, life springs Catholic community services, another one bird bar place, and then plateau Outreach Ministries. I haven't worked with all of those. I don't. Shane, do you have anything to add in that regard as to? Who's been helpful?46:57Um, I do not specifically. I don't know if Chris is available to jump in. But I think I think he's a really good resource for that. I thinkChris Lovings 47:15This, is Chris from ELAP. I'm not gonna turn my camera on. But I just wanted to say, yeah, someone just posted in the chat about Byrd Barr Place, they're actually out of funds. So thank you. I think that in the chat, these agencies Multi-Service Center, Hopelink, I believe still have funds. And so you can contact them. I'm also going to put my email in the chat if you want more information about other various places that may have a pot of money as well.47:38Okay, thank you, Chris. Yeah, and then so just the last thing on this slide. Advocacy if, if you're a tenant or you work with tenants, or you just are interested in housing issues, tenant protections, and you're interested in seeing more robust protections put in place, there's some really good organizations doing that work in Washington, the tenants union of Washington and Washington Community Action Network are both very active on the policy front. So that's one potential avenue for getting involved. And then also just sort of the basic, almost cliche, talk to your representatives, get involved with your city council members, especially if you're in those cities that do not have just cause ordinances or might not even be considering one, I think that's a really good opportunity for advocacy. So we've built in plenty of time for questions. I am going to stop sharing my screen, I think, and we can just kind of focus on some q&a, if that sounds good to everyone.Mallory Van Abbema 49:00Right, so I'm gonna just pull the questions that we've seen in the chat box here on the zoom and I see Sydney Hi, Sydney. So Sydney is asking if landlords can still raise rent on a unit for a new tenant that's signing a new lease. I'm interpreting that as a unit that was vacant during COVID. And rent was increased Sydney, is that correct? Probably Okay. Thanks. So again, rental increases happened during the COVID pandemic.49:32I am kind of thinking so if we're talking about a unit that is already vacant, that attendant is moving into is a brand new tenancy. I don't know that that necessarily fits within that the prohibition on rent increases, I think, and Catherine, please weigh in, but I think Go might need a little bit more info on the specifics there. I think if it were someone who was already on a term lease and the landlord is trying to renew and raise the rent, I think there's an argument that that's prohibited. But if it's an entirely new tenancy new tenant moving into a new unit, it gets a little easier for me on that.Katharine Nyden 50:17Yeah, I was, I was curious if you're saying is it, you haven't signed a lease yet. And they like offered one rental amount and then changed it or you've signed a lease? Because if I guess my, I think this is consistent with what you what you said, Shane? I think my interpretation if they, if you signed a lease, and then they tried to increase the rent, I think that would be impermissible under the moratorium.Mallory Van Abbema 50:47Okay, so can you just entered some clarification? So previous tenant, lower rent, and the lease end? So the new tenant comes in? So essentially, you know, raising asking for a higher rent for the same unit during the pandemic?Katharine Nyden 51:01I think that might be permissible. I don't know what you think, Shane? Because I feel like that's if we're the same tenant and they raised rent. I think that would be barred. But I feel like if it's a whole new tenancy, and you're signing a whole new lease, then I think I mean, it sucks, for sure. But I think it would be permissible.51:19Yeah, that's, that's my thought as well, unfortunately, without some sort of connection to the previous tenancy, even as like a someone who's on a sublease or something. I think that's just a different scenario, unfortunately, and not one that fits neatly under the renting increase prohibition. So I'm seeing we also have a question about retaliation, whether retaliation has to be against an individual. I don't think it necessarily does. And I'm I'm kind of just leafing through the proclamation from July to find the retaliation language. But I think as long as it's tied to some sort of action that a tenant took to assert their rights, either under the moratorium or under state law. And then retaliatory action was taken, as long as as long as it also applies to that tenant who asserted their rights. I would have trouble concluding that the retaliation protections have to be against just that one individual. I mean, because you're thinking about it, that individual is included under retaliation against, you know, like a whole building or something, presumably, I don't know, Katherine, do you have any thoughts on that?Katharine Nyden 52:43Yeah, I would encourage reporting it. I mean, I know because I think in a few cases that ag has actually dealt with whole complexes. I think we're talking about that chain last week, if I if my memory is not completely failing. And so I would definitely encourage I mean, I think the more you can get on their radar in terms of those, like sketchy landlords and bigger landlords, and the better. That would be my thought.53:09Yeah. And just to follow up on my thoughts there. So the provision in the proclamation with again, the caveat, that we're expecting a new time, we don't anticipate major changes. But I do want to clarify that the language I'm reading is from the governor's proclamation from July, he should be issuing a new one anytime that's going to extend the moratorium. But with that said, so when you look at that language, it says that landlords are prohibited from retaliated against individuals for invoking their rights or protections under the eviction moratorium, essentially, or any state or federal law. So in that sense, if a landlord is retaliating against an entire building, that still retaliation against that individual as well, so I definitely think that that still would be a violation.Mallory Van Abbema 54:05Okay, I see, Chris has asked what what can you do as a renter, if you live in a city that doesn't have a just cause eviction ordinance?Katharine Nyden 54:19I was just gonna say reaching out to some of those organizations that we listed. So Washington CAN (Community Action Network), Eastside for All I feel like I'm missing one, but reaching out to those organizations because I know they're sort of mobilizing and to organize tenants and advocate for that and the places where they don't yet exist. would be my initial thought, Shane, if you have more to add.54:42Yeah, definitely. I definitely agree with that. And then kind of like I remarked on briefly, also getting involved on an individual level with contacting city council members and just emphasizing the need For these protections, the sheer amount of tenants who are struggling with paying rent right now and who could potentially lose their homes when this moratorium lifts, just without, you know, without any just cause other than potentially having not, you know, not paid the rent. But, yeah, I mean, I think you have, so you have sort of the groups that you can get involved with, and then just on an individual level, staying in touch with your legislators, city council members, state legislators, federal legislators, I think that's really important component.Katharine Nyden 55:42And Chris pointed out Tenants Union is the one I missed. And Washington Low Income Housing Alliance, you put both of those in the chat for people that are interested.55:53So and we also do have, like plenty of time for other questions, I think, while we kind of wait a little bit for some to come in, there was one protection that I think Katherine, we didn't really go into detail on, because it's such a new program, but the state is sort of county by county implementing mediation programs for eviction cases. So I believe it's rolling out to seven counties, in particular, to start King County will be one of those. And so what that is just going to do is provide tenants with an opportunity to enter into mediation with their landlord, it gives them a chance to get their landlord to sit down at the table, try to negotiate something that would work out, you know, basically resolve the conflict without it having to continue on to an eviction action. I don't know, Katharine, if you want to share any thoughts on that?Katharine Nyden 56:55Sorry, I was reading about the Lifespring resources in the chat. And that's really helpful, Karen, thank you. Um, I don't think I wasn't, I apologize, I didn't hear everything you said. But the mediation program, I think is a way to sort of slow down the eviction process and stop it before, landlords are able to file so it's hopefully going to draw out folks ability to stay in their homes for longer. And but I think it's still pretty, I don't have a super clear idea of what it's gonna look like in practice. And I know ASAP is trying to the idea is that they will provide, hopefully counsel to folks that are going into those mediations, as well as the other legal aid providers. And that'll be coordinated through the dispute resolution center. But sorry, if that's redundant.57:42No, not at all. Yeah, it's just something I wanted to bring up. My understanding is that it would be essentially a requirement that the tenant be offered mediation prior to the landlord proceeding with the eviction lawsuit. So yeah, kind of like you said, At worst, it'll delay the process a little bit. But ideally, it gives the parties an opportunity to work out a resolution without having to go through the entire lawsuit process. SoKatharine Nyden 58:17yeah, sorry, that was a pessimistic answer, just because I think a lot of folks who are going into that are going to be really behind on rent. And but ideally, it actually works. And you get a positive agreement out of the mediation.Mallory Van Abbema 58:31And for folks on the Facebook Live Stream, or on the phone here in the zoom, I just want to shout out what Karen shared in the chat lifespring, which is one of the rental assistance and support resources that we mentioned earlier in the webinar is available only to Bellevue residents. So I think that speaks to kind of the different sections of resources that people have to navigate and jump through in order to try to, you know, cobble together past due rent. And I might pitch over to Emma, if there's any questions coming in from the Facebook Live Stream.Emma Scalzo 59:18Alright, I was muted. Um, there isn't actually any comments at this time.Mallory Van Abbema 59:26I have a question. So, Shane mentioned the like, 60 day notice that landlords are required to give tenants during the moratorium if they want to occupy or sell the property. What where does the burden of proof lie? How can a tenant kind of verify that that's the landlord's intention? What's required from the landlord to verify that occupation or sale of the property is, is happening?59:53Yeah. Yeah, thank you for asking that. The landlord doesn't have to prove anything. That's Which is my personal biggest complaint with that provision. As long as the landlord provides written 60 day notice of their intent to sell or occupy, then they've met the requirement and can terminate the tenants tenancy. So we'll see if that changes at all. With the extension, again, we still don't know. But unfortunately, there's no follow up on the back end, where the landlord is required to prove that they actually sold the property or tried to or that they actually live there as their primary residence. SoKatharine Nyden 1:00:36yeah, I got a good question. And I feel like Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. And it's definitely an area of concern. I heard, I can't remember which call it was last week. But somebody had said the landlord, issued a 60 day notice, and then promptly reposted one of the units in the home. So like, it just really demonstrates that that's a huge concern. And there's not any real enforcement piece right now behind that. And I think that Jan and I have also talked about that a lot. Like, we can tell you what all of your rights are, but the actual enforcement mechanisms for you to access are super limited, especially outside of Seattle, you know, because I think there there's a concentration concentration of both legal resources and their code enforcement is better. But yeah, just these general issues, I think that come up, oftentimes, there aren't great ways for tenants to actually execute on what their rights should be.Mallory Van Abbema 1:01:33So in in that instance, then a little bit of a follow up if if someone saw their unit posted on whatever platform, you know, a week after they were issued, that notice in the full 60 day timeline expired. So they had moved out, would they would you recommend them filing a complaint with the attorney general's office at that time, and just documenting everything as much as possible? OrKatharine Nyden 1:01:55I feel like I would, because they're abusing the moratorium, and the ag is the enforcers, you know, enforcement mechanism for it. So1:02:05I agree. And it's also a way, you know, even though in that situation, it's highly unlikely that tenants going to be able to get that housing back. Still filing a complaint, at least lets the state know, hey, look, this is this is what landlords are doing. Right? Like the this is one of the ways they're kind of getting around this moratorium. So I think it's worth it even in that scenario. It's okay, that I kind of want to pick up on what Karen wrote in the chat there. You know, don't we need concerted collective action to keep people housed? 100%? Yes, absolutely. Um, I think, like we mentioned earlier, I know tenants union. They I know they have events, I believe there may have been one down in Olympia, or there was I think, a phones app recently. So I absolutely think that getting involved and stuff like that is going to be really important. Because like Karen points out, when you look at the data around what Washington tenants are going through, it looks it looks pretty grim, especially for once this moratorium ends. Because really, you know, it's a temporary solution. We we absolutely need to be thinking about what the state is going to look like after the moratorium lifts. And, you know, anticipating those issues, and I think that collective action is going to be a huge part of that. So, yeah, thank you, Karen, for bringing that up.Emma Scalzo 1:03:52So yeah, go ahead. Um, well, I was just curious, and this isn't necessarily legal, but like a legal question, but more so in the realm of like, you know, protecting renters and whatnot. Um, but like, a lot of folks are unemployed right now. And so I'm wondering, is there any like, like incentive for folks to rent to people whose income doesn't reflect, you know, their typical, their typical income, and over the past few months since they've lost their many people have lost their jobs to COVID?Katharine Nyden 1:04:30To COVID?1:04:34Yeah, that's a good question. I think. I think really, that would need to be answered more on the landlord side of things, kind of like what is motivating them right now. Which unfortunately, I just don't have any personal insight into I would imagine that lots of empty units, probably difficult to fill when so many people lost their jobs, but definitely From the tenant side, that's something that I kind of grapple with a lot is when you're helping a tenant who, you know, might have had no issue paying their rent before COVID hit, and now their only income is unemployment. What real options are there for housing, which I think again, gets back to the urgent need for pushing for greater protections to keeping people housed? Because I do think we're going to be dealing with the long term economic effects of this for quite some time.Katharine Nyden 1:05:39Second, what Shane said, that's good.Mallory Van Abbema 1:05:45I think you may have touched on this, but how about for renters? Whose leases expire have expired between, you know, February, and now? And maybe in their lease agreement, it automatically converted to a month to month agreement? What what protections do they have? If they're unable to pay rent, they want to stay in their unit, they want to establish a payment plan. But maybe what protections does a tenant have to essentially stay housed in the housing that they were in at the beginning of the pandemic? If they have some issue with non non payment?Shane Woerner 1:06:27Yeah, Katharine, do you want to take that one?Katharine Nyden 1:06:29Sure. And they would be covered under the moratorium. So if it was, he said it was a lease that converted to month month, or if the lease ended, they are still covered by all of the provisions that we've discussed. And so they can access the benefits provided under the moratorium and full, regardless of the situation there. So I would just encourage them that if they want a payment plan, going back to what we were talking about before, like they can contact their landlord, and ask for a plan that is specifically catered to their financial circumstances. And I think Shane said this, I think a lot of times what landlords think is a reasonable payment plan. And what tenants think is a reasonable payment plan is different. But from our end, you know, we think, like, I think he also said, advocating, you know, for a payment plan that's contingent on getting a new job or getting unemployment benefits, and that sort of thing is totally reasonable. And so I would just encourage anyone in that position to just keep all of those things in mind.1:07:25Yeah, definitely. And then for circumstances where at least doesn't go to month a month, the protections do still apply. It's a bit of a stranger legal situation where your tenancy does terminate with that lease, but the landlord can't evict you for as long as the moratorium is in place. So and I think, arguably, too, there's a risk that the the rent continues to accrue every month that the tenant is occupying. Unit. But even though the lease ends, even if it doesn't automatically convert to a month to month, that tenant is still specifically protected under the eviction moratorium. And the landlord cannot take any of those prohibited actions against them or threatened to take those actions. I will say, if the tenant does continue to pay rent, like normal after the lease expires, then I think arguably, at that point, you've got a month to month tenancy.Mallory Van Abbema 1:08:33Just want to open it up to other folks here in the Zoom Room, and maybe do a quick check in with me if there's anything in Facebook Live. It's not about I've got lots of questions, but I would love to hear other folks as well. Okay, I have a question. So I know that, you know, there are agreements in leases, about the way that you dispose of garbage, the way that you you know, store things on your balcony or porch and things like that. And so any violation of that can be counted as kind of a nuisance or something. And you might get notified by your landlord that there's some sort of nuisance violation. Is there protections that are built in and this is Catherine, kind of to what you were mentioning about the health and safety of others and how that might be an opportunity for the moratorium to, you know, not offer protection to renters, if they're creating some sort of nuisance or health and safety issue for other residents around them or for you know, themselves or folks in our household. So, is there like a threshold of what that health and safety violation looks like?Katharine Nyden 1:09:56That's a really good question. And no, there's not a threshold And so I, I would I mean, on the tenant side, I'd say it has to be played with specificity and be pretty bad. Like they really have to demonstrate, it can't just be like, the tenant is messy, and leave things out in a way that's upsetting the landlord, it has to be like a major, like, they're causing raw sewage to seep through into somebody else's, you know, I mean, I'm just throwing things out there. I don't, it's kind of hard for me to come with come up with on the spot, but I think it would have to be a pretty dire situation where the 10, it was directly causing, you know, safety, like environmental hazards for other tenants. And so I don't think, you know, just like traditional being like having a cluttered space or leaving things in places, wouldn't like, I guess what I'm trying to say is something that might constitute a lease violation, often will not rise to what is necessary to allege a health and safety concern. And I would say it has to be pretty severe. I don't know if you have anything to add chain?1:11:04Yeah, I'll just add, so referring to the language that is in the moratorium, that in this case, health risk, has to be significant and immediate. So if the landlord is not able to attest that both of those qualify that the risk is both significant and immediate, then it's not to me, it's not going to meet that threshold. You know, however objectionable it may be, so the landlord, so. And I also see a question from Sydney around requesting payment plans where the tenant is not paying back the full rent just as much as they can, and then having the rest forgiven. And then follow up whether the landlord could come back for that unpaid rent later. Starting with that, first one, yeah, I mean, the so landlord and tenant can have pretty broad latitude to negotiate a resolution right at that point, you're talking about two parties coming up with an agreement, they can agree to a lot of different things to resolve that situation, I would say as long as that's in writing, and I would encourage any tenant who's trying to negotiate with their landlord, to at least get an attorney to look over that agreement in pot, if possible, before signing on to it. So you know, reaching out to a lab reaching out to the housing justice, project, tenant Law Center, all those resources, we went over earlier, just to be able to get an attorney to review the terms of it. To make sure, you know, everything is kind of to make sure that the terms basically First, the tenant is agreeing to what they want to agree to and then to that there isn't anything the tenant may have overlooked in that. So that was a long answer. short answer is yes, a tenant could absolutely request that whether the landlord will agree to it, it's going to be a different matter. And I would, I would argue that's going to be the hard part is getting the landlord to agree to that. And then, so for the second question, if you say, yeah, I'm sorry,Katharine Nyden 1:13:19I just have I have specific thoughts based on a case I worked on. The reason it would also be helpful, I think, to have attorneys looking at those is you may have landlords proposing things that are unenforceable. And I think at the end of the day, if the tenant, you know, were to pursue it legally, they would figure out it's unenforceable, potentially, but I think avoiding having unreasonable language in the agreements at the outset is important. Like I had, I had a case where they proposed that my tenant, wait or sorry, my client, waive all notice protections under the proclamation and under the Seattle municipal code, and that's, that's not a reasonable proposal, like they can agree, you know, to waive certain notice requirements under those things. But there, there's a section of the LTA that says that, you know, they're waiving certain things is considered unenforceable. And I think just keeping in mind that they may ask the tenant to waive, you know, in exchange for money or whatever the thing that the tenant wants is something that they shouldn't necessarily waive. So that was sorry to interrupt you. That was just the point I want to make.1:14:24No at all. Thank you for jumping in. Um, so yeah, the second part of that question, can the landlord then come back for the unbraided paid rent later? Not if you have this written agreement, if you have a written agreement that's signed by the landlord and the tenant that says the landlord is waiving the the rest of that rent. You know, that's, that's an agreement between the parties, provided you have it, and again, this is why it's important to get an attorney look over it, because there are provisions that you could add to an agreement like that, that specifically states that it's You know, an enforceable contract that you can pursued in court if one party breaches you know, so that those are the kind of things like that's why it's important to get an attorney to look over it. But yeah, if you have that written agreement, the landlord can then turn around and say, okay, where's the rest of the rent? If a landlord does try to do that, that is why it's so important to make sure you have a copy of that, in a place where you will remember where it is where you will have it handy, just in case, you need to be able to prove like, no, look, we have this written agreement that we both signed, that you said you were going to waive the rest of the rent. So you know, I don't know what you're saying, trying to get the rent, I don't owe it anymore, because you sign this agreement. So I think, yeah, I just want to emphasize, if the tenant does get an agreement like that, make sure the tenant has a copy of it keeps it safe, because if a landlord tries to pull something like that documents gonna be really important. Okay, yeah. So that follow up. If the landlord tries to turn around and say, you know, like, takes it out of the security deposit, then at that point, I think, tenants either going to have to write a demand letter to demand that the landlord return that, you know, attach a copy of the written agreement with the landlord signature, saying, basically, you violated our agreement, please return that, you know, or demanding return of that. If the landlord doesn't comply, then I think you're looking at potentially a small claims action, which applies to amounts in controversy that are I believe, under $5,000. If it's above that, then you most likely need to get an attorney involved. But if it's an amount lower than that, then I think primary option would be a demand letter to the landlord secondary, it would be small claims.Mallory Van Abbema 1:17:11We've got a few minutes left. What other lingering questions you all have? Karen Studders 1:17:33This is Karen stutters, I'm not going to show you my face because I'm under the weather. But I have a question. I've already put a couple of things in chat. I've been here five years. I'm I'm an attorney in other states, but not in this state. But I've worked a lot on these issues. My concern that I see coming with over a quarter of a million people that are currently homeowners that have already been identified as unable to pay their mortgage, and over 180,000 renters that have been identified as not having been able to pay the rent. When the moratorium explorers and we start evicting people, which I expect business people landlords will do. And the number of people experiencing homelessness is going to drastically increase. I am somewhat a pair that the legal community is split up and nonprofits just like everything else here. So there's no central area to go to to have the lawyers talk about problem landlords to identify, collectively within the state of Washington where the problems are or for lawyers to work collectively together to come up with strategies to keep people housed. The whole setup is pro landlord. So we know that I've had to learn it here. I now know it. So everyone knows that the plays in this field. So what are people doing to collectively figure out how we are going to legally work together and share information and keep people housed in the state of Washington? Because I really, I am just amazed. I mean, this is not speaking badly of any single lawyer or nonprofit but the nonprofit's have a mission statement that have their independent board of directors, they have their own executive director and they don't play well in the sandbox together. And that's real in this area. So and that's across the country. It's just that we have so many and I've never seen legal services divvied up by county and by nonprofits. So knowing that that's the really the land do we already have existing networks that share information that worked together? Do we already have executive directors that routinely speak to one another about problem? landlords patterns they see of abuse or weakness? To have individual tenants totally dependent upon going to a nonprofit that may or may not know, what has already occurred. And Sarah, we just waiting to increase our number of people experiencing homelessness. And I'm sorry for the rant. But I'm just amazed here. I continue to learn here. Yeah,Katharine Nyden 1:20:20the rant is very fair. I think both Shane and I probably would agree. Yeah, I agree that services are fragmented. I think. Within providers, we try to stay in communication via like listservs. And meetings are lots of meetings, we try to be on those meetings together to discuss common problems. And Shane, feel free to jump in and add to this because I've been in this position for a shorter time. So I'm still familiarizing myself with this legal community. But I do think there are efforts to collectively, you know, share resources and talk about ongoing litigation, and talk about how to support tenants during this time. But I do agree with it, particularly from the tenant side, trying to access legal services, I think there are a ton of barriers, and I definitely don't disagree with you. And it's something that I think we do need to all do a better job of addressing. So I think those are really good points to make, particularly during COVID, when they're more barriers inherently to accessing the courts, and again, to legal services. Shane, I don't know if you want to hop in and add more.1:21:28No, no, I'll just say that, um, excuse me. I appreciate your comments. Karen, I think it's really important, I think it's really important for you know, us as attorneys to to not lose sight of the fact that we need to hold ourselves accountable and make sure that we are doing that collective work and staying in contact with each other because everything is fragmented. And I don't have experience from other states to compare it to. But what I have heard is that this infrastructure, for specifically tenants issues is is fairly underdeveloped compared to some other states. here in Washington, you know, there isn't like an organized tenants bar that we can go join as attorneys, or get involved with, I will say, Northwest Justice Project, our statewide civil legal aid organization, they do a lot of good work, keeping in contact with attorneys who are involved in these issues coordinating, you know, certain actions on that front. But I absolutely agree with you. And I absolutely can appreciate that it can often be frustrating for a tenant who's trying to access services, to get bounced around from one organization to the other and not know, who can actually help them. I've definitely had that concern and frustration expressed to me from clients who, you know, or it makes it that much harder to access services. And to your point, Karen, the services are going to be more and more critical as we move forward, especially if we're not able to get some sort of solution or, you know, statewide legislation that is put in place to to address what I think will almost certainly be widespread evictions and homelessness once the moratorium eventually left. So yeah, I mean, to your point, Karen, I absolutely hear what you're saying. And I agree. There are I mean, there are some, there are efforts underway among attorneys to keep in contact with each other. But as far as things like, you know, problem lists of landlords that sort of like information sharing, I think that's the infrastructure that is still pretty underdeveloped in in Washington as far as coordinating efforts on that front.Mallory Van Abbema 1:23:57I think we might be just about a time, Karen, thank you for the comments. I know that some sort of database, especially for renters to be able to access to just see interaction with landlords history. You know, fairness is something that's crossed my mind as a renter in the state. And I think that it would be a really valuable tool I can expect there'd be quite a lot of opposition. I'm not sure that's exactly what you're saying. But that's just something that can be quite helpful for folks when they're making the decision about who they're renting from. And huge thank you to both you Shane. Katharine, I know Chris, I think might have had to jump off. We've got the storms knocking down trees, Emma for all of your coordination of this event. We're going to post the recording on our website and we'll share it out with folks that registered for this as well. So anybody that wasn't able to join us tonight will be able to access this information and Just thanks to everybody for joining us and for ELAP for all the work you do. And Sydney is so great to see you. And I hope that everybody has a fabulous evening. Please join us for some other affordable housing week events. If you are able, you can access those it looks like Emma just dropped a link in the chat on the housing development consortium web page. And we will be very excited to see you running throughout the week. So have a wonderful evening. Thanks so much for joining us and thanks for all the valuable information. A lotKatharine Nyden 1:25:34of fun.Emma Scalzo 1:25:36Thanks, Shane and Catherine. I everyone. Bye ................
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