I am the little Jew who wrote the Bible - Leonard Cohen

[Pages:33]"I am the little Jew who wrote the Bible"

--a conversation between Leonard Cohen and Arthur Kurzweil1

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This conversation, between Leonard Cohen and Arthur Kurzweil, took place on the morning of Tuesday, November 23, 1993, in a conference room of the New York office of Random House Publishers, on the occasion of the

publication of Leonard's book, Stranger Music: Selected Poems and Songs. At the time, Arthur was editor-inchief of the Jewish Book Club and he selected Leonard's new book as an offering to the book club's over 20,000 members. Arthur requested an interview for The Jewish Book News with Leonard through Leonard's publisher. An abbreviated and edited version of the following conversation was published in The Jewish Book News in January, 1994, and appears on the web in various places. This is the complete conversation.

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AK: I want to tell you at the outset that I'm a big fan...

Leonard Cohen: Oh, thank you very much.

AK: ...and have been for years.

Leonard Cohen: That's very kind of you.

AK: I have more memorabilia about you than I'm willing to admit to most people. For example, this particular book: there was a time when I wouldn't let anyone else touch it.2

1 Arthur Kurzweil is a writer, teacher, and publisher. 2 I was 18, and it was my paperback copy of The Favorite Game, purchased in 1969, published by Avon Books, with a cover price of 75 cents.

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Leonard Cohen: (laughs)

AK: It was just a crazy thing. But I just wouldn't let anybody touch it. Leonard Cohen: Oh, so you know my background? AK: I know...lots about you, I think, or at least, I know what they say. And I also want to let you know I saw you in concert in New York not long ago.3 Leonard Cohen: Thank you very much for coming. AK: It was a great night. I'm interested in your grandfather who I understand wrote some books. Leonard Cohen: Both my grandfathers were distinguished. My mother's father, "Rabbi Solomon Klonitsky-Kline" is the way that they transcribed his name in the publications that were printed here. He was known as Sar4 HaDikduki, the Prince of Grammarians. And he wrote a thesaurus of Talmudic interpretation5 and a dictionary of synonyms and homonyms. They

3 It was June 14, 1993, Paramount Theater, NYC; I was also in Leonard's audience in Forest Hills, NY on July 25, 1970 (I sat in a box seat directly behind Bob Dylan and his wife, but that's another story) and December 12, 1970 at the SUNY Stony Brook gymnasium. 4 "Sar" is Hebrew for "prince" and is a well-known honorific. 5 A five part book, each treating a book of The Five Books of Moses, Ozar Taamei Hazal (Thesaurus of Talmudical Interpretation) by Rabbi Solomon Klonitzky-Kline, was published in New York in 1939.

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were used in institutions of higher learning until Israel took over the grammatical institution.

He was a wonderful man, and my mother always used to tell me that "people came from 100 miles" to hear him speak. My grandfather was the principal of a yeshiva in Kovno6. He was a disciple of Rabbi Yitzchak Elchanan and, in fact, my grandfather closed his teacher's eyes when his teacher died.7 He had a very strong secular side to him. He rode, for instance. He liked to ride horses. He was a kind of confrontational teacher, especially when he got to New York, where he ended up. He came first to Atlanta, where his daughter married into the Alexander family of Georgia, who were Jews who arrived in 1708, and he originally moved to Atlanta. But there was nothing

6 Now Kaunas, Lithuania's second largest city. During the Holocaust the Jewish population of Kovno was destroyed. 7 Rabbi Yitzchok Elchanan, a.k.a. Rabbi Yitzchok Elchanan Spector (1817-1896). From 1864 until his death, he was the chief rabbi of Kovno. The rabbinical school of Yeshiva University is named after him.

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there for him in Atlanta, so he moved to New York and he became part of the Forward and that group of Yiddish writers, although I don't think he contributed to any of the newspapers. But he kept on with his grammatical and Talmudic studies.

AK: And your other grandfather?

Leonard Cohen: My other grandfather, Rabbi Lyon Cohen, was also a very distinguished man who helped found many of the institutions that defined Jewish life in Canada. He was a vice president of the first Zionist organization in Canada. He made a trip to the Holy Land.

AK: A trip to the holy land at that point would have been a pretty interesting journey.

Leonard Cohen: Yes, a very interesting journey. He met Baron de Hirsch and he planned and helped establish, for Canada, the Jewish Colonization Association,8 which was to settle Jewish refugees in the prairie provinces and on farms. He was the founder of the first Anglo Jewish newspaper in North America. It was called the Jewish Times9, published in Montreal. He was also one of the founders of Congregation Shaar Hashomayim10 in Montreal.

Baron Maurice de Hirsch

8 The Jewish Colonization Association (ICA) was a philanthropic association established to assist Jews in depressed economic circumstances or countries of persecution to emigrate and settle elsewhere in productive employment, founded by Baron Maurice de Hirsch in 1891.) 9 The Jewish Times was founded in 1897. Rabbi Lyon Cohen was also an important leader in the Young Men's Hebrew Benevolent Society (eventually becoming the Baron de Hirsch Institute). Rabbi Cohen was also a leader of United Talmud Torahs. 10 Congregation Shaar Hashomayim (lit. "the Gate of Heaven") was founded in 1846 and originally used a rented room on St. James St. Located today in Westmount, Quebec, it is Canada's oldest traditional synagogue.

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AK: Was he involved in The Jewish Public Library in Montreal?

Leonard Cohen: The Jewish Public Library? Yes, he was involved in that, although that was a different branch, a different expression of Montreal Jewry.

I remember reading speeches of his where he spoke with great pride that the Jewish community of Montreal had absorbed its refuges from Kishinev11 without ever asking the municipality or the government for a single cent. Montreal Jewry was very well organized.

And I am proud to say that he was one of the organizers of these institutions. Baron de Hirsch Foundation was one of his undertakings. Also B'nai B'rith and the Jewish General Hospital12. And the Hebrew Free Loan Association13 was a very special interest of his. And of course all the institutions connected with Shaar Hashomayim.

AK: Both grandfathers were immigrants?

Leonard Cohen: They were both born in Europe; I think my grandfather came here when he was three. His father, who was also a very interesting man, Lazarus Cohen, came in 1860.

AK: To Canada?

Leonard Cohen: Yes, with his son.

AK: Are you named after him?

Leonard Cohen: Oh there's a tradition of L's. Lazarus, Lyon, Leonard.

AK: One of the reasons I'm asking you about your grandparents is that Jewish family history and genealogy is a personal interest of mine. In fact

11 Kishinev, today, is the capital and largest municipality in Moldova. On April 6-7, 1903 a pogrom (antiJewish riot) lasting three days killed or severely wounded hundreds of Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes and businesses.

12 In 1927, Jewish community leaders gathered and agreed there was a need for a Jewish hospital. The hospital opened in 1934 with 150 beds, open to all faiths and cultures. In the early 1900's a few precursors included the Herzl Dispensary and the Hebrew Maternity Hospital.

13 Founded in 1911, it has helped over 95,000 people with interest-free loans ("If you lend money to my people, to the poor among you, do not act towards them as a creditor; take no interest from them."--the Torah, Exodus 22:24).

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there's a book on the shelf behind you that I wrote called From Generation to Generation14...

Leonard Cohen: Oh, yes?!

AK: which is a guidebook for people who want to learn how to do Jewish genealogical research.

Leonard Cohen: Ah, that's interesting!

AK: So I did a lot of genealogical research in my own family.

Leonard Cohen: Yes?

AK: I went to Eastern Europe a number of times to the towns where my grandparents had come from. A couple of my trips to Eastern Europe had a connection with you. I'd like to tell you about both of them.

Leonard Cohen: Yes?

AK: I researched my mother's family and discovered she had a first cousin she thought was killed during the Holocaust, who was living in Budapest with his wife, children, and grandchildren. So not that long ago I discovered...

Leonard Cohen: Family!

AK: Yes, family in Budapest, and it was wonderful. I have a second cousin, Zsuzsa, who lived in Budapest. She's now in Australia, but she grew up in Budapest. I met her for the first time in Budapest. We were speaking in English and I said to her, "Where did you learn English?" and she said to me "Cohen."

Leonard Cohen: Ah! (then laughs).

AK: I said, "What do you mean `Cohen'?" and she showed me your albums and she said, "This is how I learned English."

14 A division of Random House published a soft cover of the first edition of From Generation to Generation: How to Trace Your Jewish Family History and Genealogy. A division of Random House also published Leonard's current book at the time, Stranger Music: Selected Poems and Songs.

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Leonard Cohen: Ah, that's very nice! Thank you!

AK: Extraordinary.

Leonard Cohen: Yes! Thank you! Thank you for telling me that!

AK: That was in Budapest. Then I went to Warsaw, Poland, where I also discovered a cousin of my father, who I also didn't know existed, who also survived the Holocaust and is living in Warsaw with his wife and daughter. One afternoon they introduced me to an actress, a young woman, who was a friend of theirs, with whom we spent the day. As we were walking through the streets that were once the Warsaw Ghetto15, I said to her "What music do you like?" She said "Cohen."

Leonard Cohen: (laughs with pleasure)

AK: So, my question is this: why do you think it is that you have this following in Eastern Europe?

Leonard Cohen: I did a tour of Poland before the government changed, before the solidarity government was established, and I discovered--I had known, but I had known without a great deal of data--I found that Poland was probably my largest audience in the world. Unfortunately they paid me in zlotys which, as you know, are non-transferable.

But I discovered a huge audience there, and at times, when my socalled career in the West almost evaporated in most places, there was always this following in Poland and in Eastern Europe generally, but Poland specifically. I don't know why.

My great grandfather came from Vilkaviskis16, which was part of Poland at the time, and I was very pleased to be able to say that I came from Poland, although they didn't really think of me as Polish. But it was very interesting,

I don't know. Of course, there's something--I grew up out of that world in some way. It was not hidden from me. Actually when I arrived in

15 The Warsaw Ghetto, the largest ghetto during the Holocaust where Nazis and Nazi sympathizers crammed over 400,000 Jews in just over one square mile in Warsaw. At least 300,000 Jews died there or were sent to extermination camps where most were murdered.

16 Vilkaviskis, today in southwest Lithuania, had a large Jewish community until 1940 when it was destroyed by the Nazis. The entire Jewish population was murdered in one single day.

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Greece, in '59 or '60, I really did feel that I had come home. I felt the architecture was familiar, I felt the village life was familiar, although I had no experience with village life.

AK: Some of the articles I've read about you over the years have indicated that you dabbled or more than dabbled in various kinds of spiritual paths. Can you tell me if I'm right in thinking the line "Did you ever go `clear'?" from "Famous Blue Raincoat"17 was a Scientology reference?

Leonard Cohen: Well, it was a Scientology reference. I did look into Scientology. I looked into a lot of things when I was a young man. Scientology was one of them. It didn't last for long.

But it was very interesting, as I continued my studies in these matters, to see, really, how good Scientology was from the view point of their data, of their information, of their actual knowledge, their wisdom writings, so to speak. It was not bad at all. I know it's scorned. I don't know what the organization is today, but it seems to have the political residue of any large, growing organization. But, I was surprised to see how well organized the studies were. Yeah, I did look into that.

AK: There were others?

Leonard Cohen: Well, from the Communist party to the Republican Party. From Scientology to delusions of myself as the High Priest rebuilding the Temple.

AK: How do Jewish things fit into all of that?

Leonard Cohen: Well, I became a very serious student of a Zen monk. Although, I think "dabble" can describe anybody's activity in these matters, because who of us can say that we have fully embraced this material. But, I remember Allen Ginsberg18 saying to me at a certain point, "How do you reconcile this with Judaism?" because he was a student of Chogyam Trungpa19.

17 A song by Leonard on the album Songs of Love and Hate.

18 Allen Ginsberg (1926-1997), American poet, was a practicing Buddhist.

19 Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche (1939-1987), Tibetan Buddhist master, author, and founder of Naropa Institute.)

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