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GLOBAL RHETORICS PODCASTEpisode 4: When All You See is White with Kefaya DiabKefaya: I was sending this article for publication to this journal in rhetoric, and the editor came back to me telling me that it was really hard to find anybody expert in the topic I’m talking about because we're talking about culture and religion, and that was a big problem. I am sure there are lots of Arab and Muslim scholars in rhetoric. The fact that there is nobody, this was a struggle, it tells you how white the field is. And then we talk about the global rhetorics. We talk about cultural rhetorics. There is this disconnection between theory and practice.{Intro music plays}José: Welcome to Global Rhetorics. I’m Jose Quintero.Collin: And I’m Collin Bjork. This is the podcast that aims to amplify the work and networks of rhetoricians around the globe. {Intro music continues}Collin: Hey Jose. José: Hey Collin. Collin: Welcome to our special episode of global rhetorics that is a part of The Big Rhetorical Podcast Carnival 2020.José: We're here, along with various other podcasts in rhetoric, to talk about the digital futures of rhetoric and composition.Collin: We want to use this theme to do some self-reflection, particularly about this podcast, our involvement in it, and what the mistakes we've made can tell us about what needs to change in the digital futures of rhetoric. José: To do so, we have a guest today, Kefaya Diab, whose research and involvement in academia give her the expertise to help us with this much needed reflection. Collin: That's right Kefaya's research specifically looks at cultural and digital rhetorics with a focus on affects and resistance. José: So we'll spend the first part of the episode talking about her research and then we'll talk about the future of digital rhetorics and where our podcast fell short in fulfilling its promise of global rhetorics.Collin: Let's meet our guest. José: Let's meet her.{Music playing}Kefaya:????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???????-?????????? ????? ?? ????? ???????. ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??????. ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? "??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????. ????? ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????. Collin: Welcome! Tell our listeners what language was. Kefaya: Arabic. Collin: And which dialect? Kefaya: Jordanian-Palestinian. Okay, so I’m playing with you now. So it's Arabic language, specifically the Jordanian-Palestinian dialect because that's my root. I am Jordanian of Palestinian origin. José: Wonderful!Collin: Thank you for joining us! José: Would you mind repeating that in English?Kefaya: Oh, you want me now...oh shoot, you should translate it. What I said is my name is Kefaya Diab. I’m a researcher. Right now, I work at Indiana University. And I am Jordanian of Palestinian origin. In my research, I work on the role of emotions on pushing activist work forward. And this is a question that's been since I was a child... I was looking at the sense ofagency, or sense of capability, asking: why some people have that sense of capability and why not? Because I could touch that that sense was enabling me to do work that other people thought that it was crazy. "You can't do this. This is impossible." But I always felt that, "No, I can do it, and I'll show you." And then when I was watching, when I was doing my PhD studies, and watched the Arab Spring starting in 2010 and 2011. And suddenly Arabs started saying, "yes, wecan do it. Yes, we can go to the streets and remove our dictators, change the governments."I felt...where did that come from? Because without that sense, they wouldn't go to the streets. But then, they feel it, and it pushes them to go demonstrate, and that contributes to affecting change. So that's what created my interest in this theoretical work to construct a theory about the sense of agency or sense of capability in activist movements. Collin: Terrific! José: That's fascinating.Collin: And I’m very excited to kind of dig more into your research here on this podcast episode.Kefaya: Me too! I’m very excited to talk about it. José: I think your research really expresses how well-positioned you are to talk to us about activism online and offline and about the agency that can come out of it. Kefaya: So to distinguish what I’m working on, it's a "sense of agency": the feeling that I have a capability, the feeling that someone feels like "yeah, I can do it." Agency, however, is the actual capability. So what I was reading about in Western theories is talking about how capability is not individual, and it's collective, and then responsibility also is not individual...that we together within certain circumstances can do something or cannot, and that agency is not something that you can pre-assign to the human. But then, I felt like when we talk about "oh, give students agency." Or, "you're taking their agency." I felt, it's more than... you're impacting their sense of agency. Because the capability, again, is situational. It's like, you're contributing to the circumstances that disable them. But you're not exactly taking their agency because agency is not something that somebody has. So I’m working on this sense, whether it is accurate or not. Like maybe I can say, "Oh I can write a book in one year." And I have this sense. perhaps after a year I didn't write it. Maybe it didn't match the reality. But still that sense makes me every day write for certain number of hours. So that's what I am interested in, and I think that's what I’m adding to rhetorical theory. Now this sense...it's an affect. And affect is broader than emotion. So while emotion is something we understand it socially, affect is the broader changes that happen to our bodies and make us feel something. So for instance when you say somebody's angry. Anger is defined socially in certain ways. Like somebody gets their face red, their voice loud, and you say...when you see somebody like that you say somebody is angry. But there are other changes about blood pressure and how our organs are working that nobody ever is seeing. So affects are about the whole, even the things that we don't see and the things that we're not aware of. So I’m working on this, and I’m working on how it relates to the Arabs' culture, how it relates to the Islamic tradition that has a big impact in the Arab world. And here comes a problem that I face while working on my dissertation. My advisor, my search committee, are all white Americans; it didn't occur to any one of them to push me further because I touched on the Arabs' culture and Islamic tradition, but it was a touch...it wasn't the core thing. The core thing was Western theory. And I was like, you know, after I finished, and I’m working on my book, I say, "no, of course, now I’m gonna go dig into...this is a cultural, de-colonial project that I’m going to go and work from within the culture. So lots of voices in the West, even in the Arab world, talked about how social media enabled Arabs to revolt. So there is this still colonial way of seeing how "oh, this Western invention helped these people in the East to liberate." Which is, I see, as inaccurate. It's not about what social media is doing to Arabs. It's what they are doing with it. and how they are actually... what they are doing to it. Changing it. Developing its role. So I’m working on that. I even, I was sending this article for publication to this journal in rhetoric, and the editor came back to me telling me that it was really hard to find anybody expert in the topic I’m talking about because we're talking about culture and religion. And that was a big problem. I am sure there are lots of Arab and Muslim scholars in rhetoric. The fact that there is nobody, this was a struggle, it tells you how white the field is. Who do we interact with? Who do we reach out to? People like us. So, you see, the department I graduated from was all white. The one I’m working in-- rhetoric and composition--is all white. People when they want to advocate to hire somebody, they hire people like them, again white. Editors of journals, white. The majority of reviewers, and the majority of voices who are getting published are white. So it's...you either have to assimilate and try to sound American and Western. Or, they carry their projects, but then there is really no venue for them. And then we talk about global rhetorics. We talk about cultural rhetorics. There is this disconnection between theory and practice. There is really no internalization of, "oh, we need to do this work from the beginning" (not after the fact). "Oh, diversity!" After we establish a project, "Oh, now bring diverse people to add to it." No, they should be there from the very beginning. So look at who we are hiring, let's start from there, because that's very important. So the rhetoric field is not smart enough, I believe, in encouraging these voices and giving themmore funding, more support. Because, hey, we need you! We need to enrich the rhetoric field with these cultural and global rhetorics.José: Kefaya, not only is your research fascinating; I also think the story you just told us like really helps us dig into how specifically this kind of oppression happens within academia. And I want to bring out two things that you mentioned. One being that there is no one in these journals that could check your cultural work on the Arab world. And that was a barrier of entry into the production of knowledge. And then, on the other hand, how your committee, or the people mentoring you, because they couldn't speak to the cultural aspects of your dissertation, they had to push you on differently, right? On, like, on particular etymologies of a word that is so charged in Western theory, like affect. So that kind of guidance definitely produces particular kinds of work. Kefaya: Yeah, you're right. I agree. So there is lots of struggle, like you know, for somebody who comes with something non-Western-centered. Yeah, there is these extra struggles.Collin: I’m curious to know, Kefaya, when did you begin to conceive of your project as a de-colonial project? After I got my PhD. After I felt like, "okay now, it's my project. I can do whatever I want with it." I said, "this is a de-colonial project." So I was working heavily on Western theories, and there are some projects I submitted--proposals for two conferences. I think one of them was a Feminist Rhetoric, and one of them was Computers and Composition. And in the feedback I received for both, which was like, "oh." Because they are telling me that I’m talking about cultural stuff, that I need to bring more scholars from within that. I was like, "oh shoot, I’m now thinking the same way that, you know, I learned." So then I felt like I need to actually work hard now and to get my authentic voice and try to destruct part of the education that I received in order to actually contribute and make something new, so I’m not just repeating what's being said. I’m bringing something new. Collin: That's terrific. And as a way of giving us an example of the sense of agency, I understand you've been thinking about the Tunisian Arab Spring, can you tell us more about how sense of agency works in that example for us, so we can better understand this concept, especially in its non-Western modes. Kefaya: So I was working, theorizing on my own, thinking of where does that come from and drawing on the culture, language, the Islamic tradition. But then I went last summer to Tunisia, and I did focus groups and interviews with people who contributed to the Tunisian revolution in 2010-11 that actually led...it was the rise of the Arab Spring. And they came together. And two things, I find, that contributed to the rise of that sense. And I say that that sense is like a power that passes through the body. So we don't have it the whole time; it keeps moving and making things. It's coming in in the Arab culture from two things. Felt vulnerability, of oneself and the other. And felt responsibility toward the vulnerable. So these two are very weaved in the Islamic tradition and in the Arab culture. And people told me...it's like in Tunisia, they said, "We are not used to seeing blood. In Tunisia, we're not used to hearing shootings. When we heard about how the Tunisian authorities are oppressing and killing people in the inner areas of Tunisia after Mohamed Bouazizi set himself on fire...when we heard, when we knew...and we was like, 'oh my gosh, we need to do something in the capital to get some pressure from the inside.'" So it's this felt responsibility to toward the other who's vulnerable. So then I found that, yeah, that sense it's what makes people get out. And then I’m asking one of the interviewees, "you're talking about how you felt afraid and uncertain, but you still talk about how you kept going with these people in the streets." And he said...and I’m asking him, "Were you aware of what you were doing? Were you calculating?" He said, "Awareness? No. To do this protest, awareness goes back. What you feel is that there is a necessity. How can I see that people are now getting killed, and we saw things on social media about bodies. It's like, "no that's it. What more could happen after that?" So, then it's this unique felt responsibility thatcontributes to the rise of a sense of agency out of necessity. And I feel that that's always... like me personally, what's happened to me since I was a kid, is that I feel I could do it because there is a necessity for it to be done. Like when I was in my second grade, and I had some of my classmates being bullied. And I never even talked to teachers about it, but nobody else in the class is doing anything, so I took it upon myself to do something. Then I started becoming a target to bullying myself. But it's personally I felt that a sense of agency comes from a necessity: "There is a work needs to be done; it's not being done. Then, hey, I can do it. Yes, I'll do it.José: So, Kefaya, I’m curious...this sense of agency seems to be innate, right? You're describing it as woven into the cultural fabric of Tunisia. How does one affect it? Or how does one produce the conditions of possibility for a rising agency? And I’m asking particularly because that sense of care and responsibility for each other isn't as tangible in other places in the world. Is there a way where that could happen? And I’m asking particularly because I know activism is a core part of your research as well. Kefaya: So this is a big question, and I will not tell you that I have really the answer to it. But I have some, you know, hints. Like because I’m saying that a sense of agency comes from feeling responsible toward others and feeling the vulnerability of others, then part of it is to educate others about their privileges and the vulnerability of others. And then argue about: we are who we are, in the place where we are, by chance, by luck. You could have been me, in my place. You were born in Jordan. I was born in the US. And just by the virtue of your place where your parents were, we have certain privileges or vulnerabilities. And doesn't that make it really unjust that some of us have more and some of us have less or have nothing? Then I try to do that, for instance, with my students in order to give them this felt responsibility first toward the others and then reminding them of their privileges and the necessity for some work to bedone and then from there to make them feel: "Yeah, we're responsible. And yeah, we need to do something about it." So I feel that that's one of the things. Another thing, for instance, in my writing classes: I have lots of students who are afraid to write. So they feel, "No I can't write." So then my work with them is about trying to create new conditions where fear can get away a little bit, that it's not a bad thing that would happen if you write. Maybe something good is going to happen. Like last semester, I had a student who told me how she was fearing to write her personal narrative when two of her group members are going to read it and give her feedback. But she took a risk, and then she saw the feedback and how they were understanding. And then that helped her, and then...she didn't say "a sense of agency," but this is what I observed...that then a sense of agency entered, or moved through, her body and enabled her to write about topics that she felt were very difficult to write about. Collin: That's important to see the composition classroom as a space where we can create the conditions of possibility for that sense of agency to emerge in people who might not otherwise feel like they have agency or even a sense of agency. José: I would say the same is true for the public speaking classroom. Collin: Yes! José: Just to holler at our folks in the more comm-based rhetoric. Collin: Absolutely! Kefaya: And you ask me, Jose, about activism, what it means to me. And I have this radical...I mean, I come to the US, and I feel everybody is calling them an activist because somebody assigned some readings about social justice or did this curriculum..."they're activists." And I was like...I had this actually conversation with my own faculty when I was a student, telling them: "Okay, I’m coming from a place where activism means you lose your life, your freedom, you get tortured for advocating for social justice. So to me activism is this good work, social justice work that you do despite knowing that there is a risk on you to losing things that are important to you. Now, if you're doing good work and there's no loss, it's still good work, but it's not activism. Like somebody who's doing social justice radical pedagogy, and they are not and they are not fearing that, oh, there might be a retaliation, and they will get fired from, or not getting a proportion. That's good work. But someone who's afraid that actually "okay, eyes on me, and this might affect my future, but I’m still going to do it because it's necessary." Then that's activism. So it's the loss. If you're willing to do it, although there is lots of loss, then, yes. But just assigning readings, talking about it in the classroom, publishing about it, and unfortunately this happens, tokenizing the suffering and vulnerability of other, then you become known and get awards, that's definitely not activism, to me. José: I like that, and particularly because it, you know, when you were talking about having responsibility for others and each other, I think it allows us to put activism into that conversation, and say that fulfilling your responsibility to others isn't necessarily activism it's just doing the least... the least you could do, right? And so reframing activism in this way allows us to heed better this calling to help others. Kefaya: There is something in Islamic tradition, something I value a lot, it's the concept of "zakat." So zakat is an amount of money that you give to the poorer. But you don't have to be rich to have it. It's just saying... the whole idea is that if there is a certain saving that you have in a lunar year that's not touched, that means you're capable of contributing a percentage of it to the needy, the poorer. You might be a poor, and you actually put this money as, you know something for emergencies, but since they remained there for one whole year, and they were not touched, then you have to give parts of them. And your left hand should not know about what your hand gives...the secrecy of it. You do it not in front of anybody. So you don't wait to be thanked or praised for it. And I feel that I internalize that in what I do, in academia and other places...that we need to do the work. José: Okay, I have a question. So I am particularly interested in when you said that, you know, "Your left hand shouldn't know what your right hand is doing," because, you know, when we think of activism, particularly in the present moment, we often think of social media a lot and displays of activism, right? And also about representation, and I argue, people think it's important to see activism happen, so that you know that you too can do it, and so here we have a little bit of a contradiction, right? Where true activism might be selfless and not displaced. And yet seeing representations of activisms might help produce something like a sense of agency. Kefaya: It is very smart. No, I agree with you. And I’ve been actually telling people about like donations I do here and there, and talking about the sense of responsibility, and tell them, "I’m not saying this...I’m not saying this to show off. I’m saying this because I want people to start feeling ashamed that they are not doing it." Okay, so I think, yeah, it's again contextual. So that's because...zakat is specifically because you give it to certain people. So the idea is that you don't want their privacy, so that you don't want people to know that you gave these people. So it's, kind of, to protect those who take. But definitely lots of activism need to be known and need to be amplified, so those who are not doing the work see that, "oh shoot, there are people who are risking a lot, so it's my turn to do that." So I think that's very smart, José, thank you. José: I like the idea of having to put in context. Because zakat, you're talking about it in terms of something you're doing every year. Whereas, perhaps, the activism that is on display is responding to a specific problem that requires immediate attention of sorts. The raising awareness might not necessarily be the same response in some acts of activism as in others. Kefaya: And you need both. So you need this sustained work, "that's oh I’m not waiting!" Because lots of work now after the murder of Mr. Floyd, lots of work is happening about, "oh, we need to do this!" But this kind of racism, police brutality, has been done for a long time. So don't take this just as...on the occasion...so now we will do something, then we will sleep again. There is need for consistent work because we are talking about systematic racism that needs also systematic responses. And then yeah there are these immediate actions that need to be done to respond to the current situation. And actually I feel like that-- in terms of the Arab Spring--so that immediate response is needed, but what was maybe missing is this systematic political planning under the ground that's waiting for some moment to invest all the preparation in doing something and replacing the governments. Because the problem is after there was some replacements of the governments, there was nothing to take over, so the same systems came back again and took over. So both are needed. Collin: That's a really good point, I think, for us to think about when we think about activism in the academy. Because right now, especially in the United States after the murder of George Floyd, there's lots of kairotic activism... individuals, organizations, departments responding, in certain ways, to address the white supremacy that is so prevalent in our field and in the academy more broadly. But we also need that sustained activist work in our field. It can't just be a moment that pops up over the summer 2020. So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about some of the activism that you've done in the academy. Kefaya: So right now, I am a part of a working group that was a result of lots of conversations and conflict and some racist and sexist conversations on the Writing Program Administration (WPA) listserv. So a group of us, just nobody nominated us, we said "hey, we need to do something." So out of necessity and felt responsibility, we formed this group, and we started writing new guidelines for the listserv, so that vulnerable people--like graduate students, non-tenure track, and junior scholars, and people of color, and queer, and disabled scholars--would feel safer in speaking in such a space because there is a lot of times there is attacks against these vulnerable voices that now they are declining...their participation is in decline. So that was the goal. So of course we're not changing the whole field, but this is one of the interfaces of the field, that you see things being said in public. So we're working on this. I’m also working as a mentor to the Next Generation Advocacy group, who are also a group of graduate students who were attacked members of them were attacked on the WPA listerv, I think, in 2018, and they left, and they created their own listserv. So I work in a mentorship capacity, with them behind the scenes, on some statements they work on, some advice they need here and there. So it's important that we work on these spaces that are here right now, and we need to keep working on them because if we just leave them racism, sexism, all the homophobia, all kinds of discrimination, are going to be there somewhere. And the battle is gonna keep happening. We can ignore a space, but that doesn't mean it's not there. And at the same time, it's very important to create these spaces because people now need safety. So yeah, the NextGen is very important to be created. So but we need, again, to work on both sides because this is lifelong work. It's not something that will end. So this is part of how I’m involved in activism. Collin: And just for our listeners, the WPA listserv, which Kefaya referenced earlier, is the Writing Program Administrators listserv, and one thing I appreciate about that work, Kefaya, is that that list serve is the largest listserv in composition-writing studies. It's massive. And the NextGen listserv is a nice alternative space, as you mentioned. But again, that WPA listserv is still a space that people use, so it's important to continue that activist work in that space. José: So Kefaya, a lot of the activist work you've been talking about, the sustained activist work, seems to be happening online. And I think that makes sense, right. There is no united office of rhetoric in the world. We are a network of academics around the world, and so to work towards something like changing an academic discipline, it makes sense to be working on an online space. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about online activism, how it relates to hybrid activism--which is I know a topic of your research—and maybe how that relates to the digital future of rhetoric. Kefaya: This is fantastic, thank you. The hybrid nature of activism is also because our lives now are hybrid. In the beginning, when the internet started and social media...were like this disconnection," oh people spend so much time on social media, so they are not socializing now. We're losing these human connections." But now we actually live in both. And it's hard to say when our offline life starts and when our online life starts. And I treat, to me, social media and the internet are spaces, are environments. So now we live in these hybrid environments in the same time. So right now I’m at my office at home. My cats might wander around. So while I’m talking to you, I’m also affected by their presence. Out the window to my left, I see the cars that are parking in the place. So I’m not only exactly with you online only. I’m online and offline at the same time. And I can't say that, "oh when does my awareness of my offline environment stops and then the online?" No it's all enmeshed with each other. So that's that idea behind the hybrid activism. Because I didn't want even to say that...oh because I also wanted to shift it from these "tools of liberation": social media, technology, and the internet. So I didn't want it to be like that. Now these are now spaces; we live within them, and we do different things. Because whatever environment you have, you act because it limits you in certain ways and it enables you in certain ways. You still need that material presence in the street, with our bodies being shot, and there is blood getting in the street. You need that. You can't just keep the activism in within the online environment. But also there is lots of work that you need to do... expressions, organization. So both of them are needed. And you take a photo about something in the street and you circulate it. How you bring now the street to the screen, but then how what's being said on the screen you bring it back to the to the streets. So both are enmeshed with each other. And that's the idea from the hybrid. So some people on the Writing Program Administration listserv, for instance, might feel, "Oh why are people making all this fuss about? It's just words, like when people talk." But words in this...what some might see as a virtual space...it's not true. And we're talking about affects, by the way, and affects travel through these hybrid environments. No, I hear a word that's not even targeting me, and it makes me feel chill in my body, on the listserv. So that's not true. There are people who are not touched by it. So yeah they are not going to see the value, why we need to say no to certain words, certain expressions because now you are terrifying others who are already vulnerable.José: I think you said it wonderfully. Affects travel through hybrid spaces in ways that can be successfully mobilized. We saw it in the Arab Spring with a series of revolutions that ignited each other, and we're seeing it now with the protests sparked by the murder of George Floyd. Kefaya: Yeah, you learn from each other. You see and you feel this identification with each other from knowing that it's not your own suffering. Injustice is everywhere. Like wherever you go, you need to actually...if you're privileged, no matter where you go, you need to do something about it because it's your privilege, only by chance. It could have been you. {Music playing}Collin: Activism is a great jumping off point to now transition a bit and discuss the Global Rhetorics podcast because frankly Kefaya, your academic activism is one of the main reasons why we're doing this special episode. José: After we first announced this, the Global Rhetorics podcast, we got some immediate feedback that was, well, hard to hear. A couple of scholars reached out to us to tell us that while they were intrigued by the concept of our podcast, they were disappointed when they looked at our website and our team and realized that it's all white, or at best white-passing. Collin: So if our mission was to amplify the work and networks of rhetoricians around the globe, this was the wrong way to go about it. And frankly I wanted to have this conversation with you Kefaya, to sort out how this problem happened in the first place, and what we could do to fix it moving forward. So Kefaya, I wonder if you could tell us... what was your first reaction when you saw the launch of the Global Rhetorics podcast and then who was behind it?Kefaya: So I first saw the email from Collin on one of the listserves, and the name Global Rhetorics, and was like "yay!" So I go on the website right away, and I go check the team, and... oops, all are white. So this is the first thing that I've seen, and I was like, "Hey!" in my head, "Collin, I mean we talked about racism in academia so much. We talked about whiteness. We talked about privilege. So not you. Not another white podcast!" I felt personally frustrated because I trust Collin, and I know him personally, we work together at some point, and we had these conversations. And so there was this general level of anxiety then. I felt, "oh and I do the same work that you're doing in this podcast, or that that you claim you're doing. And I am doing digital rhetorics, and I am a woman of color, and I am doing cultural rhetorics. So how more global can that get? So how come that, you know, and I was still invisible to you? So I was like, "no, there is no excuse." I felt frustrated, but I didn't send the email right away. It took me some time for anxiety and emotional labor. I talked to a friend of color about it, and just saying, "I’m frustrated." Then I talked to a mentor who's a woman of color, and I told her, "you know what, after a few days, no, I need to tell him. Collin needs to know. I mean, something should happen because if we didn't talk, then how would change happen? And that's when I sent the email telling you Collin, "hey, the title promises of something, but then the team seems like all white...maybe, from some names maybe not, but the color...look all the skin is white. And then, I go to the website...but then there is nothing in the website that that clarifies that. You're saying you want to amplify, but there is nothing to show that. So I felt the identity is vague, even when I listened to the first episode.?And I felt the way how he introduced the topic was so Western, and then the person who's from South Africa is talking about Burke, and I was like, "okay." Like this is the first episode who should show the audience this "Global Rhetorics," and it's not there. So this is just another white podcast. And then, you know, Collin and I talked about this, and I suggested that, you know, when Collin talked about having an episode to talk about where you fell short, and then I suggested to you why don't you just then bring people who criticize you, and I felt like even at that point, you didn't internalize the issue about diversity...that it was still...the episode was going to be like a monologue, that you amongst yourself are going to talk about it, instead of having it as a dialogue. Like hey, we need to bring those who were not here and who reached out to us, so I feel that is something that that needs to be done for Global Rhetoric podcast. Collin: Kefaya, I need to apologize to you and to our listeners and to the field for putting together a podcast that is complicit with the white supremacy that is so prevalent in our field and in our world at large. The thing that makes this more problematic--not an excuse but more problematic--is that I do know Kefaya, and I remember thinking and mentioning Kefaya's name to other members of the team back in November as someone who would be really good to interview given her research expertise and maybe she would even want to join the team after the interview. But in in having that idea and not reaching out to her at the beginning, I erased her agency--a white man erased the agency of a woman of color in our field-- by thinking that like "oh, I have this idea for how it can be," without creating an open space for dialogue and discussion about possible ways forward. What ways might Kefaya want to be involved or not involved given her interests. So again my thinking about that was limited to my own perspective rather than creating a space where Kefaya could have agency--and someone who researches agency, rhetorical agency!--like super, super blinded. And so yeah that's why I’m really grateful Kefaya that you reached out and that that we had a conversation before and are continuing the conversation now. José: Part of this is that we're very grateful not just for the way that your comments and you being here is going to improve the podcast, but also we're very aware of (thanks to you now) of all the emotional labor and the actual physical labor that went into reaching out and expressing these opinions in a way that was constructive towards us and generous. So we're just very grateful to be able to collaborate with you on this. I think the podcast is definitely for the better thanks to you being a guest in this in this episode. Kefaya: So to think about the more inclusive futures of our podcast, let's first go back and very briefly discuss the origins of Global Rhetorics. José: Well, Collin, this podcast was your idea to begin with, why don't you tell us about how it came to you.Collin: Well I’m hard-pressed to say that it was solely my own idea. It sort of, for me, it emerged from conversations that I had with scholars in the past few years at a variety of different conferences: Rhetoric Society of America, Rhetoric Society of Europe, International rhetoric Workshop. And the idea sort of grew when I was walking out of my dissertation defense and thinking, "oh my gosh, I can finally write about something else and think about something else, what kinds of ways do I want to contribute to the field?" And I was, at the time, planning a move here to New Zealand to take my first job here at Massey University, and I was thinking rhetoric is such an American-centric discipline (like many humanities disciplines). And I really wanted to create a space where we could amplify the work of scholars who are working outside of an American context or who maybe live in the States but research rhetoric and global rhetorics that operate outside of American contexts. I sort of wanted to de-center the U.S. a little bit and to create a space for that to happen. So at the same time, I was conveniently scheduled to go to a conference, the 2019 Rhetoric Society of Europe conference in Ghent Belgium, and I thought, "well I'll take this podcasting gear up there, and see if I can't grab a couple interviews, and tell people about the idea, and see if anyone wants to join the team." José: I like that story a lot because it not only tells us about your interests but it proposes that a podcast like this is a solution to a problem, right? It is the answer to a question that is of interest to us, which is how do we push back on issues that have harmed, I think, the discipline for a long time, which is its Western centrism, its bias towards Western knowledges. Collin: And I was planning to conduct interviews and to see if any other team members wanted to conduct interviews at RSA in Portland in 2020 and then at the International Rhetoric Workshop in Mexico. But I realized now that I went about that the wrong way. By recruiting at conferences--which is necessarily a privileged event, for those who have funding available to attend conferences, which as we know is quite expensive--I necessarily limited the kinds of scholars who could participate in a podcast like this, both as parts of the team, if that's where I was recruiting, and also as potential interviewees. And frankly by launching the podcast after going to the European conference but before going to the conferences in the United States and Mexico, I didn't start by being inclusive initially. That recruiting style involved adding people piecemeal to the project as an ongoing process rather than ensuring that the production team was diverse and inclusive from the very beginning. So tell me, Jose, about your own interest in participating in the Global Rhetorics podcast. José: So after a couple of years of being in grad school, I wanted to find some kind of alternative media initiative, a place where I could do academic style work but not necessarily aimed at academics. A reason for that being that, well, academic texts tend to be very dense and very hard to access. I wanted to be able to write or produce something that would be accessible to my friends and to my family back home in Guatemala, and an academic paper was simply not the medium to do so. So I had been looking for venues like video essays or maybe less formal blogs to do this, and then you reached out to the International Rhetoric Workshop planning committee to try and co-sponsor and have the Global Rhetoric podcast be a part of that initiative, and I thought it was a wonderful idea. At first I joined you simply by doing the music for the podcast, but I was so happy with the idea you had brought that I wanted to join it more fully, and somehow I ended up being a co-host with you. Collin: Right, and I’m glad you are, Jose, because I really appreciate the perspective that you've brought to this podcast. You're a skilled rhetorician, podcaster, musician, and thinker, and you make this podcast better each day. And also I was hesitant to have me be the sole face of a podcast. I really wanted this to be a collaborative endeavor...with co-hosts, with maybe multiple hosts in different seasons and episodes. And I hope that we will have a chance to have a variety of hosts moving forward. I certainly don't see myself as being the "face" of this podcast at all because, lord knows, the world doesn't need another white guy at the head of an organization like this, especially one that's called Global Rhetorics. A podcast named Global Rhetorics needs to have many faces and many voices featured on it, whether as hosts or interviewees or as part of the production team. José: So I think what I really like about this podcast is then it is a response to two different interests. One is de-centering Western knowledges, and the other is making that academic knowledge more easily or readily available to people outside of Western institutions. Collin: So it seems like a lot of the things we're talking about in terms of activism in the academy are things that are going on now but also need to be sustained moving forward, and I think this touches on the theme, "the digital futures of rhetoric and composition" that The Big Rhetorical Podcast Carnival is asking us to think about. I think actually everything we've talked about today points towards "the futures," so, Kefaya, what kinds of activism, what kind of anti-racist work, what kinds of things comprise the future of our field moving forward? Kefaya: So when we talk about the future of digital rhetorics, we first need to look at the present of digital rhetoric. What's the problem with it? Because when we are asking about the future, perhaps we have something in mind? So what's the problem now? What do we want it to be in the future? And what are we willing to do to make it change? Most importantly, who are we? Who are we who ask the questions? Because even asking a question means that we have a power. I look at all the podcasts that are invited for the carnival, and I see that all are white producers. So who are we? Are we, are we white scholars? Are we asking now about the future of white digital rhetorics? (I'll tell you, it will remain white digital rhetorics.) So I think that that's an issue, and I didn't even dig into...yeah, they might be talking about social justice, but again, when white people are the ones who have the power to decide who comes and speaks, what voices to be heard, that's a problem. And also when you, when it's white voices that bring...say, "hey, we want to work for social justice," so you are the 'saviors'. That's also a problem. So here comes the value of a project like yours, Global Rhetorics, that we actually want to amplify these voices that been underrepresented or oppressed. So then how can you be not just one of these white podcasts like all others (even if you're talking about social justicein your episodes)? So talking about the future, starts from talking about the present and before digital rhetorics. Because the digitality, it's a Western tool, so again how it also limits us in in certain ways, like we were talking at the beginning of this episode about the American style ofintroducing your episodes. But how do others do, for instance, radio reporting? How do people do a radio in the Arab world? What is the origin before it gets too much affected by this Western industry and western rhetoric? And then, what can people who are who can still bring something new that we want them to be with us and do podcasts in their in their own ways? Collin: One thing, Kefaya, you've helped me think through...I’ve always imagined that this podcast would have a large and growing team, but it must, moving forward, include a rich array of voices: people of color, indigenous scholars, scholars from underrepresented groups, need to have their voices and their ideas as central to a podcast called Global Rhetorics. José: You know, I was thinking that we need to be particular specific about the things we want to accomplish when we say something like "global rhetorics." Including me in this podcast might increase diversity because I am a mestizo Guatemalan scholar, but, you know, I am not an underrepresented minority in Guatemala. And as another cis white passing man, particularly when together with this rhetoric team, having me here doesn't necessarily solve anything. We need to be particular about what we mean when we say global. What can make this podcast global is having the voices of underrepresented rhetoricians in it, not just an array of passports. Kefaya: And to do that, I have this radical advice that I would say. If you want to do that in your podcast--and I believe that your podcast is needed; it's a project that's really needed-- I suggest that you suspend it for a while. Put a message, the same venues that you went through to advertise about your work, send a message saying we're suspending our work for one-two-three because we didn't take a diverse approach from the very beginning, anti-racist and non-western-centered, and we don't want to keep working on that and just adding to it. We want to deconstruct this project where diverse people that we wanted from the beginning, but we didn't for some reason, we were blinded or didn't take enough time to work on, we want them to be part of the planning. Even I mean, the identity of the website, what you say, the colors, the kind of music that you use, the design. I mean, if you just think how all this can change and every small detail can say something, if actually you get more people for instance of color--from the US, from out of the US--to be among the team, even if they end up maybe hosting one time, or whatever, it's fine. But that's okay, we're actually doing it not after the fact, not like the usability and accessibility and readability, which is something was big that you test the product after you create it. No, if you need really accessible work, you include all these different variant people in the work from the very beginning. And I think that would give a really very important message to others: "okay, here's how you can acknowledge that you've done a mistake, and here's how you acknowledge and try to internalize. Now from now on, when you go to conferences or academic events are you going to search with awareness for people of color, for people who are not like you, for people who are doing projects different than the ones you are doing, because if you're not doing that, you're keeping the burden on these different minority people to come and reach out to white people, and what happens they try to assimilate, they keep feeling that if they don't try to be more white, act more white, sound one more white,then they're not going to be included. But if you start reaching out saying, "hey we're missing on a lot when we keep only our way of knowing and doing," then this is how we enrich the field as part of our work.José: We thought that we could further diversify the team as the podcast grew, but the truth is that the language of progress, of incremental change, really only serves to protect already existing structures of power. So to continue with an idea that the incremental process might be an eventual solution, I think would be to continue to protect the same structures. Kefaya: Lots of quick work just to serve one thing is making us feel good about ourselves that we're doing it. José: This has been a spectacular conversation. Your research is fascinating, and it's got clear implications that were put to the test, right here. Collin: Thank you, Kefaya, we're so grateful that you spent more time dialoguing with us today and with our listeners, and personally I’m very grateful for your friendship and your mentorship. Kefaya: Well, thank you for having me. This was really lots of pleasure, and I really appreciate your sincere desire and efforts and labor. So thank you, it's been lots of fun talking to you. {Music playing}José: So what's next for the Global Rhetorics podcast?Collin: Well we're taking Kefaya's recommendation and pausing the production of episodes of Global Rhetorics until we have an inclusive team and an inclusive vision for what the Global Rhetorics podcast can be moving forward. José: In the near future we're going to be focusing our energy in recruiting and restructuring the Global Rhetorics team, so that our mission to amplify the working networks of underrepresented rhetoricians around the globe is held not just by our topics and guests but also by our team. That's right, you may hear from us because we plan to do some targeted recruiting, to read the scholarship of marginalized and underrepresented scholars in the field who have an interest and experience in global rhetorics, and we plan to reach out to them. José: If you're one such scholar, and you have been generous enough to listen to this entire episode of the podcast, please reach out to us the team would be much better having you in it. Collin: That's right we would love to have your voice and your ideas as a part of this project moving forward. José: So expect to hear from us, not soon, but after however long it takes for our production team to fulfill our mission of amplifying the work and networks of underrepresented rhetoricians around the globe. Collin: But before we go, we did get to ask Kefaya, what should rhetoricians do if they get the chance to visit Jordan, and she was their tour guide?Kefaya: In Jordan, I would suggest that they go to Petra. I would not suggest, I'll force them. I'll just take them to Petra. Petra is now one of the world's seven wonders. It's a whole city carved in the rocks, so it's something amazing. And you will see pictures of it, but pictures are not anything close to reality. It's amazing. So my sisters came from Jordan to visit me, took them to the Grand Canyon, and they were not so impressed. It was like, "Oh, it's nothing, compared to Petra."José: "Wow!"José: This has been Global Rhetorics and I'm José Quintero.Collin: And I'm Collin Bjork thanks for listening. Ff you're on social media you can follow us on twitter at globalrhet that's at g-l-o-b-a-l-r-h-e-t{Music playing}Collin: If you like what you heard today tell your rhetoric friends you can also find more information about our podcast on our website and we encourage you to share a link to this episode on your favorite rhetoric Facebook page.The transcription for this episode was done by Evelyn Meisell and it’s available on our website.José: And a big shoutout to the Global Rhetorics production team!Anneli: AnnelI Bowie at the University of Johannesburg in South Africa.Collin: Collin Bjork at Massey University in Aotearoa New Zealand.Jelte: Jelte Olthof at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.Beck: Beck Wise at the University of Queensland, Mianjin Brisbane, Australia.Erik: Erik Bengtson, Uppsala University Sweden.Joanna: Joanna Chromik at Indiana University in the United States.Jason: Jason Michálek at Indiana University Bloomington.Rebecca: Rebecca Ottman, Indiana University Bloomington.José: And José Quintero at Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois. Our theme song is bymy band, 1815. {whispers} Check us out! ................
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