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Speak Up - KōrerotiaHomelessness20 June 2018MaleThis programme was first broadcast on Canterbury’s community access radio station Plains FM 96.9 and was made with the assistance of New Zealand on Air.FemaleComing up next conversations on human rights with “Speak Up” – “Kōrerotia”, here on Plains FM.SallyE ngā mana, E ngā reo, E ngā hau e whāTēnā koutou katoaNau mai ki tēnei hōtaka: “Speak Up” – “Kōrerotia”.?Tune in as our guests “Speak Up”, sharing their unique and powerful experiences and opinions and may you also be inspired to “Speak Up” when the moment is right.Nau mai nau mai ki: “Speak Up” – “Kōrerotia”. Ko Sally Carlton tōku ingoa. Ko Andréa Vildeuil tōku ingoa. Today’s topic is “Homelessness in New Zealand.” We’ll be conducting a series of interviews to explore the topic, and first up we have Alan Johnson of the Social Policy and Parliamentary Unit at the Salvation Army. Alan, thank you so much for joining us. AlanKia ora. SallyAlan our first question is: Do we have a sense of how many people are estimated to be homeless in New Zealand? AlanThere’s a figure that’s been floating around at the moment of around 40,000, and that figure is in part taken from the Census of 2013. That was based, as I understand, significantly on the numbers of people who were estimated to be literally without a roof over their heads. As probably listeners will know, the idea of homelessness is not a very precise one. There are levels or degrees of homelessness from sleeping rough on the streets to couch surfing, to living in cars, to living in garages and sheds, to living in overcrowded conditions which will endanger health so there are a whole range of states of homelessness and the numbers I think of people in those various states would be well in excess of 40,000 people. SallySo that 40,000 is more the people sleeping on the streets, is it? AlanThat’s right, or without adequate shelter. SallyThat seems surprisingly large, I would have thought, for New Zealand’s population. AlanIt is. There’s about 4.5 to 5 million people in New Zealand so the response is it’s about 1 in 100 people who are homeless. It is large and I don’t know in comparison with other countries but I think perhaps it’s emphasised in much of the international media commentary that New Zealand is this country that’s apparently doing very well economically and socially but it’s got this problem with homelessness which is much worse than it is in other countries. Before we could accept that as an argument, we’d have to look at how good the stats are from those other countries. AndréaIs this number increasing or decreasing? AlanOh I believe it is, clearly we won’t know that until the results from the 2018 Census are out which could be in a few months’ time but there’s every reason to believe they’re increasing, because what’s happening for example is our social housing waiting lists are growing. They grew 26% just between December and March this year. The numbers of households that are deemed to have a very serious housing need that requires a response within a week, have grown 80% within a year to around 6,000 households so there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that homelessness is getting worse and part of the reason for that is simply we’ve got very strong population growth particularly in some cities, which is not being matched by the building of affordable housing. So it’s inevitable that we will see increasing numbers of people basically on the streets, living in cars or living in substandard shelter. SallyAlan, just to get back to your point before about the numbers coming from the Census data, how do the Censuses capture people who aren’t in housing if they’re delivered to people’s houses? AlanThat’s always a difficult one to do and that’s why you’d have to be a little bit cautious about accepting comparisons internationally because I think it’s a case where in New Zealand we’re going to some extra trouble to find people who are living on the streets and there are Census enumerators - people who go around and collect census information from individuals - who have made a point of going around particularly into the main business districts of the main cities, trying to contact people sleeping rough and getting them to fill in a form. So there is a bit of an effort to do that, whether it’s complete is another thing but it does seem as though we’re going to that extra trouble to count these people although I think as your listeners would understand, there’s a degree of shame about being homeless so somebody is not necessarily going to put their hand up to somebody from the government and say, “Look count me.” So even despite these efforts, I think the numbers that we’ll get will be an undercount. SallyYes I would agree. AndréaYou mentioned some locations that are more likely to have a higher level of homelessness. Which are these locations and why? What are the locations in which we see a large number of homelessness? AlanWhat’s tended to happen is that because in New Zealand, we’ve had relatively strong population growth - we’ve had net immigration in the last couple of years of close to 70,000 per year and on a population of 4.5 million, that’s about 1.5% increase which is quite significant on a year-by-year basis. What’s tended to happen is that the majority of those people have shifted to Auckland - probably 30,000 to 40,000 of those 70,000 have ended up in Auckland - and Auckland’s population has been growing around 30,000 to 40,000, 50,000 a year and we’re just not keeping up with house building. House building is probably around 10,000 houses a year and so we’ve got this growing deficit in Auckland which we estimate sales in the last five years as around 18,000 houses just haven’t been built for the population that’s here. What we sense is happening - and I think the Census might demonstrate this - is that people are shifting out, particularly older people, people reaching the end of their working lives and choosing to exit Auckland. Auckland house prices are pretty high relative to incomes and they’ve risen really quickly over the last five years, so if you own a house in Auckland it’s likely to be close to a million dollars or more and you can easily cash that house in and buy something else outside of Auckland and listeners will know the difference between the biggest city and the prices of housing elsewhere and you can buy a really nice house even 200km from Auckland that would be half to a third of the price. What we’re seeing is this movement of people out of Auckland into these smaller towns and cities and it’s creating real problems in those towns and cities because they’re not big places and it doesn’t take many people to come in and rent or to buy a house before you start displacing people in those cities. So cities like Rotorua, Napier, even Tauranga and certainly Hamilton and Whangarei up north of Auckland are cities that have been impacted by this trend. SallyThat’s interesting, isn’t it, because we always think of Auckland as being the problem but I see what you mean about the displacement. AlanYes and it won’t take many people to want to leave Auckland because listeners, if they’re not aware of the dynamics, Auckland represents about 35% of the population of New Zealand and it represents more than half of the population growth of New Zealand so it’s a dynamic place but if things start to spill out of Auckland it’s going to have a big impact on these smaller cities and towns around us. SallyAlan, you were involved in writing a report on housing in New Zealand a couple of years ago, what’s the name of that report please for our listeners? AlanThe one that I did for the Minister at Christmas time, or the one prior to that?SallyBoth maybe?AlanI’ve written extensively on housing, the most recent one was called Taking stock which is available on the Salvation Army New Zealand’s website and that was an attempt to estimate the future demand for social housing here in New Zealand, and more recently just after Christmas, I was part of a small group of people who did a housing stocktake for the Minister of Housing looking at housing markets across New Zealand and the challenges we face in those. So those are the two most recent things I’ve written around housing. SallyWhat are the conclusions that you’ve been drawing about future housing needs? AlanWe believe - that’s we, the Salvation Army - believe that in New Zealand we need to be building about 2,000 extra state or social houses every year for the next ten years. At the moment we’ve got probably around 65,000 to 70,000 state and social houses. The previous government was letting the stock of those houses run down and we probably lost about 3,000 to 4,000 houses over the last five years so at the same time that we’ve got increasing pressure for affordable and social houses, the government was running the stock down and if we instead had those extra 2,000 houses a year for the last ten years, we wouldn’t have anywhere near the level of street homelessness or housing that we’re seeing now. And our view was that the government needs, at the very minimum, to be building about 2,000 extra units a year. It needs to see that on a sustained basis and perhaps over five to ten years; we might then see a dent in the problem. The regrettable thing is that in the Budget that was announced two weeks ago, the government came up with a figure of 1600 units per year for the next four years, so for us it’s disappointing because we didn’t set this figure of 2,000 as a target. We said this is just going to stop things getting worse and the government frankly hasn’t seen the priority in doing that and for us that’s disappointing. AndréaSo you would say that for now the government has not been doing much about homelessness? AlanWell the government has put a massive effort - and the previous government did too towards the end of its term - put a massive effort into trying to get people into transitional or emergency housing. So we had a situation a couple of winters ago where families with children were living in cars and in some parts of New Zealand, as you would know, that’s a pretty hard life. The previous government and the current government are working hard to find transitional housing for people but the reality is that once they get into that transitional housing, there’s nowhere for them to transition to often and so they’re stuck there. So the government has made massive efforts to stop people living really, really badly but it hasn’t, in our view, made the necessary efforts to start to address the backlog that we’re faced. SallyIt sounds like perhaps not quite enough, with those 1600 houses being built. AlanNo it’s not enough and it’s disappointing really because the government did have options to do better. They are running surpluses in terms of their budget numbers, they do have capacity within their own budget rules to spend more money but they’ve chosen not to and I think part of the problem is to do with the fact that right now our construction sector is overheated, that it’s really difficult finding skilled people to do the job and if you just throw more money into a sector like that it’s just going to result in higher prices. There is an issue around the capacity of the building industry to meet those numbers but we think that things might cool down a bit, particularly in the commercial sector over the next few months. We might now see a sort of a slowing up of building activity which could easily have been picked up by the government deciding to build more houses. SallyIn addition to just the building of houses, is there any other key recommendations you have? AlanOne of the things we took some exception to was the state of our private rental market. In New Zealand basically tenants don’t have a lot of rights, they have certain rights but the tenancy can be ended at any time by the landlord with 90 days’ notice and that really means that the tenants don’t have any security of tenure. And if you don’t have security of tenure, all the other rights you have - for example, to expect the landlord to maintain the house - tend to go out the window because you can’t enforce your rights because the landlords can tell you to go with 90 days’ notice. The real problem right now is our private rental market is being dominated by mum-and-dad investors who might own one or two houses and what’s happened in our housing market is house prices have risen so quickly that the yields that these mum-and-dad landlords are getting on their rental properties are very low - around 4% or 5% - and it’s not really worth their while investing any more money into private rental housing but we need that investment because effectively that’s what happens if you don’t get home ownership or if you don’t get state housing. We’re looking ahead and thinking the private rental market is in real trouble and what we are going to see is a shortage and I think we’re seeing that in terms of working families are finding it tough to even find a place to rent and then rents continuing to rise faster than wages or salaries, meaning of course that tenants’ households are going to squeezed further. AndréaThank you very much for you participation with the interview. AlanThank you very much for your time. AndréaFollowing this interview we’re listening to Ed Sheeran, ‘The A Team.’ MUSIC BY ED SHEERAN – THE A TEAMAndréaKia ora, you’re listening to Speak Up Kōrerotia, and today we’re talking about homelessness. We’re back with Matthew Mark, head of the Christchurch City Mission, to talk about what’s being done at a local level. Good morning Matthew. MatthewGood morning. AndréaMatthew, could you please tell us about your work within the Christchurch City Mission?MatthewSure. So I have the pleasure of leading the team at the Christchurch City Mission. Now the team are obviously dealing with community works and so a good portion of our work is around those who are vulnerable in their housing space. So they might be homeless or they could be in transitional housing, for example. But in addition to that there are… And I guess a lot of people don’t understand the depth and breadth of the work that we do within the Christchurch City Mission. So we also work with people with food poverty and so we’re one of New Zealand’s largest food bank providers. We have budget services, we’ve got counsellors and social workers, we’ve got alcohol and other drug detox spaces, residential and in-home, where you have alcohol and drug counsellors. We’ve got registered nurses, we run a little clinic and we run day programmes for men and women in addition to a whole lot of other things as well - so quite wide in the breadth of what we do - but obviously some of our most pressing stuff is around those who are vulnerable and living on the streets. SallyI imagine so much of what you’re just mentioned is all related, isn’t it? MatthewYeah it is often is interlinked. One of the underlying things that we do see is for those who are vulnerable and who are living on the streets is that by and large there will often be some form of low lying often mental health issues and then often coupled in with that there is the fact that in order to deal with those issues, because they’re not picked up necessarily by the normal health system, is that people will self-medicate and so alcohol and other forms of drugs become part of that process of coping with things that are going on. So that then leads to quite a systemic sort of process in that it means that family relationships break down, they might lose their job as a result of that, they’ll lose their house, their support network and everything then goes as well. And so then all of a sudden you find that there’s someone who might have been in a relatively functioning environment just with a few issues in there, that starts to culminate into a space where it comes self-perpetuating and they end up finding themselves living on the street. So yes, it is often very interlinked. AndréaDo you have any ideas of the numbers of people affected in Christchurch? MatthewIt’s quite hard to know exactly but we’ve got an indicative figure that we’re working on that’s just over 200 people. Last time we did a physical street count - and the reality is you can never count everyone because you just don’t know for certain - but last time that we did, and to the best of our efforts in conjunction with some of our other partners in the community, we counted just over 170 men and just over 40 women. Now that number will obviously fluctuate and it often ends up being that we find someone some permanent accommodation and then someone else fills that void as well. The numbers do ebb and flow. SallyIt’s interesting, the gender difference. MatthewQuite significant and I think that probably one of the things there and it’s a really sad part of the picture, is that the women will often settle. So they’ll go into a relationship or environment just to get a roof over their head and an unfortunate piece of that is that those environments are often unhealthy and women who are in a vulnerable position often end up being taken advantage of. So yes there is a disparity in there but what we see is it’s because they will settle into a space. SallyYou mentioned fluctuations, but have you noticed particular changes since the earthquakes? MatthewAbsolutely, so the earthquakes were a really interesting time for Christchurch because what did happen was we had pockets of housing where particularly older villas were rented out on a room-by-room basis and so for those who were not in a position to be able to afford a normal rental, they could afford a room where they could live and it meant that they could meet their needs albeit that it might be tight. The earthquakes pretty much put paid to that whole space so we lost a whole tranche of housing from within our community that served some of those who didn’t have means and those who were vulnerable for a variety of different reasons. Then the other part of that is that there’s a real challenge around family housing and affordability and everything for them as well because a lot of that… What you’d class as cheaper rental stock was lost particularly through the red zone area and so that means that people have had to reallocate or relocate themselves into spaces where the day-to-day costs are just punitive to them, effectively. AndréaIn terms of services provided, so what are the services that the Christchurch City Mission provides? Are there homeless people coming to the City Mission or are you coming to them? MatthewSure, I guess just to give you a bit of a brief as to the process that we go through with that. So we run a men’s night shelter and we run a women’s night shelter as well, so two very separate facilities. In our men’s night shelter we can accommodate up to 30 men in any given night, and in our women’s we can accommodate up to 12 women so we can accommodate 42 people on any given night. Now we know that there is an excess of 200 people in our community so it means that there’s a lot of people out there that we aren’t able to provide a roof over their head but we can only do what we can do and alongside that, for those who are out in the community, still we provide every other element to support them or to connect them in with other agencies that might be able to help. So the process when someone comes through our shelter - and they will self-refer them to us or WINZ might refer them, or Corrections - there might be multiple areas that someone will actually connect in with us but when they do, we sit down with a social worker and that social worker looks at their story. How did they get to be in the situation that they’re in? And, what’s going on in your lives at the moment? Are there issues that we can or journey alongside you with? I mentioned earlier around some of the challenges that we have around some of that low lying mental health space and some of that is actually really easily fixed. Then as a result of that there’s often some alcohol or other form of substance that might be an addition in there as well and so we can connect them in with our alcohol and drug detox space. Then we can sit down with social workers and we can act as agents with MSD for example and actually look at how do we provide a positive pathway forward. So every person when they present, we sort of unravel their story and start peeling it off layer by layer and we set a plan for them. It might be that they sit within our shelters for one or two days, it might just be very temporary, it might be that they’re with us for two or three weeks while we actually work through that process of developing a plan that provides a permanent solution for them.SallyHave you noticed that people are reluctant to do that, tell their stories? MatthewThere is an element of that there and I think part of that comes back to we’re in an environment where if someone is in a situation where they need help, they have to tell their story over and over and over again and so what often happens is that person feels devalued by having to share their story so often because it doesn’t necessarily sound like a nice story very often and so it means that they feel devalued, they don’t feel respected and often it’s in an environment that might be a little bit harsh towards them as well. So you get that having to share the story over and over and over again so feeling like they’re just not worth it, and they’re being judged for that there as well so that is difficult. From our perspective, we know that we need to become a safe place so we talk about those in the community that we’re serving as whānau, they’re our family, and so we need to treat them like family so we don’t judge them. If they’re not ready to share their story then that’s fine, we will work with them as best as we’re able to but then they also know that we can only really help them if they are in a position where they’re able to share that openly with us. AndréaSo does it work most of the time? MatthewIt’s an interesting one and I think if you look at it from a statistical point of view you would argue that we’re probably 50/50 on things and often it’s because of situations and environments within someone’s life, they might not be ready to, for example, go through detox. They need to arrive at a place where that actually becomes a decision that they need to make and that might impinge on them being able to find that positive pathway forward. I think if we’re getting one out of two into a positive place then that’s not bad. A really cool initiative that we’ve got coming up is Housing First in Christchurch and that’s a collaborative programme with ourselves and about half a dozen other agencies in Christchurch. The goal with that is to house at minimum 50 people per year who are homeless and that’s irrespective of anything else that they have going on within their lives. So we’re looking at working with those who are most vulnerable to start with and ensuring that we can provide an environment for them that’s safe. The idea is that we put a roof over their head, first and foremost, irrespective of all the other stuff that they have going on in their lives and then we wrap around them some real intensive support services that will help deal with anything else that they might have going on. SallyIf people want to get in touch with the City Mission, either if they have issues they want help with or if they want to volunteer - because I know you’re always looking for volunteers! - how might they do that? MatthewAbsolutely. So we are a self-referral and we’re often referred by other agencies as well but we’re located at 276 Hereford Street so people are more than welcome just to come on in and to introduce themselves and say, “This is what I need.” It’s not a hard environment, we are a very welcoming, warm environment and you will see from the people when you come through. So if there is a need then that’s a really simple way, is just to walk in. From a voluntary perspective, there is a process we go through because we need to make sure that we’ve got the right people doing the right things. We’re dealing with people who are vulnerable and so when we’ve got people sitting down with our whānau, we want to make sure that they are the right people so there is a bit of a process with that. The best thing there is to just jump onto our website and that’s .nz or phone in on 03 365 0635 and we can step you through that process. So connect in personally with us if there is a need, absolutely need volunteers and the other part is we are a community organisation and we work at the privilege of our community and so we’re supported by our community so if anyone wants to donate in any way - that’s goods in kind or products of some description or cash - then our website is a great conduit for that as well. SallyThank you so much for taking the time and coming in to chat with us today. MatthewThank you very much for the privilege. AndréaThank you very much. SallyAnd we’ve got this song ‘Brother’ by Matt CorbyMUSIC BY MATT CORBY – BROTHERSallyKia ora. To round out today’s discussion on the topic of “Homelessness in New Zealand” we now have our final guest, MP Marama Davidson, Co-Leader of the Green Party. We’ll be hearing from Marama to get an overview of what’s being done at a national level particularly given her involvement in the Inquiry and the Ending homeless in New Zealand report. Marama, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. MaramaMorena koutou, thank you very much for having me on here, Sally and Andréa. SallyThank you and just to get us started, could you maybe tell us why did the government initiate the Inquiry and resulting report? MaramaSure, because it was clear that we were facing a crisis. It was clear that on the ground people were living in cars, garages, under bridges, on the streets and it was people who were often in paid employment and so there was a serious problem unrolling, unravelling in front of our eyes and it appears that the government of the time, led by the National Party couldn’t even admit there was a crisis, couldn’t say the words ‘housing crisis’ and so we, Labour, Greens and Maori parties, felt that we needed to do… And we asked, firstly we asked for an inquiry through the Select Committee process, that was refused, the National Party refused that inquiry request, so we did our own inquiry and that’s what we stepped up to do. We realised something was happening and we wanted to get an understanding and an insight into exactly what was happening in our country when it came to housing. AndréaRight and what were the key findings of this Inquiry? MaramaThat New Zealand was facing a level of homelessness larger than any other time in recent memory and that it was continuing to grow and that it was going to continue to impact and accumulate. We found that it’s not just people living on the street or in cars, or in cold garages, or being overcrowded into boarding homes, or three or four families being squashed into one home. It’s also lack of security for people who rent, families having to move several times in a number of years, families with children not able to attend less than one school over a year, children moving from school to school. We found that the condition of homes, of rental properties, the lack of security and there just not being enough, just not enough emergency homes, not enough state homes, not enough affordable rentals, were causing people to be pushed further down and down the housing continuum and the sharp end of that was showing up as people living on the streets. We found that it was particularly people with a disability, Māori and Pacific families, young people and people from the rainbow community who were being particularly impacted on by the housing crisis. Those were the groups who at the end of everything were finding it most difficult to find a warm, affordable house to live in. AndréaDo you feel like the Inquiry has been taken into consideration, the situation has changed? MaramaThe Inquiry suggested that one of the main recommendations from our Inquiry - and not forgetting we toured around the country - we invited people at the frontlines, people experiencing homelessness, housing inadequacy, people working at the frontlines, organisations, community groups and agencies working at the frontlines. We invited people to come and talk to us. Hundreds of people came and spoke to us and also put in written submissions and we found that it was worse than what we had even thought. Because of those findings, one of the recommendations was to roll out an initiative called Housing First as a primary response, now that has worked overseas and primarily what it is: Housing First says put people in a home, that is the first objective and then supply people and families with the other social supports that are needed for them to remain in a house and so instances, that’s income adequacy support, it could be other health support particularly mental health, all sorts of other social supports, employment support - so wrapping around all of those support services agencies but firstly getting someone into a home. Now this Government, just this Budget, announced further funding for the Housing First Inquiry. We also recommended that we increased the state housing stock and this Government already has stopped and said there will be no state housing sell-off so that’s another thing that this Government has already done, and of course again this Government is signalling the build of 100,000 affordable homes through Kiwibuild and so those are some of the initiatives that this government has already undertaken. I was pleased to also hear the Minister say, for example, just simple things like state houses will now not discriminate against tenants with a pet, with a dog for example. That in itself was making it really difficult for some tenants to find properties so some good supports and initiatives have already been announced by the government. This government is absolutely committed to ending homelessness but there’s a lot of complex work that we’re trying to unravel, probably 30 years actually of complex issues that have helped to create the housing crisis and so that’s what we’re committed to doing. SallyPerfect, thanks so much. And just to round off the discussion, it’d be really fantastic to hear your perspective on housing and homelessness and any other things you think we need to be done doing moving forward. MaramaAbsolutely, so I’m very clear that housing is a human right, it’s a basic core, inalienable human right and I’m also very clear that in this country, in Aotearoa 2018 there is absolutely no good reason why any person, any family or any group should not be able to live in a secure, affordable, healthy, warm home. And so I’m very clear that was the starting point that we should be operating from as a government and that government has a responsibility to ensure this human right. I’m also clear that people living on the streets - that anyone not living in a warm, affordable, secure home - is in a moral situation for us. There is absolutely no need in this relatively wealthy country for anybody to be living in anything less than a good warm, affordable, secure home. So that’s my starting point. My perspective on housing and homelessness is that the status quo economic approach is what has created this level of crisis and homelessness in this country where the wealth is concentrated into the hands of a few. Literally two men own more wealth together than the lowest income earning 30% of this country and that is a moral also not sustainable. Housing and homelessness and adequate housing is not sustainable in any economy and so it’s something that urgently needs addressing. Finally that we are now at the lowest level of home ownership that this country has ever seen. It’s even lower for Maori and Pacific families, for people with a disability and other groups. So therefore renters’ rights, rental security, affordable rentals, needs to be another high prerogative of this government to guarantee. And so I’m working alongside Minister Phil Twyford to review… The renting situation for this country needs to be seen as a valid option where people can still live sustainable lives with dignity and so we really need to overhaul how we see renting and that renting needs to be seen not as a second class citizen option but as a valid, dignified, other choice for families to be able to live good lives. SallyThanks for bringing up renting, I think that’s a really important almost like third wheel to the homelessness and housing discussion. MaramaYeah, I mean it’s become very, very clear. The Green Party also will, this term, deliver a rent-to-own scheme where those very people who are locked out of having any ability to raise a sort of deposit, will actually have a chance and so rent-to-own scheme led by the government. We have had that scheme before, we have had similar schemes back in the ‘70s and ‘80s which had generationed positive impacts where entire families have been able to pass through ownership of a home due to the rent-to-own schemes that the government used to lead. We haven’t seen that in decades. The Greens are very clear that we will be delivering a rent-to-own scheme this term where people will pay an amount of their ordinary weekly or fortnightly rent towards owning collateral in a home and so this is more important than ever. But specifically renters’ rights also need to be improved and so that will also be a priority for the Green Party. SallyGood to hear. MaramaThank you. SallyMarama, thanks so much, we’d like to say kia ora for taking the time. MaramaThank you very much, it’s a pleasure to be able to talk to people on these issues and I’m very, very honoured to have been able to come onto your show. AndréaMarama’s interview was the last for today in which we looked at homelessness in New Zealand. Don’t forget you can find information about all our topics, including transcripts and resources related to our shows, on the website of the Christchurch City Library and that we have a Facebook and Twitter account. MUSIC BY PHIL COLLINS – ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE ................
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