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This little light of mine i'm gonna let it shine this little light of mine i'm gonna let it shine this littlewelcome to strangers no more where all people are loved with the love of our lord and savior jesus christ in the household of faith there are to be no strangers no foreigners no rich and poor no outside others as fellow citizens with the saints we are invited to change the world for the better from the inside out one person one family one neighborhood at a timethank you andrew hi welcome to strangers no more and if you might notice if you are watching our youtube show and not listening to the podcast you'll notice that we look a little bit different today and i will tell you that bradley is here he's just not on video yet dennis why don't you introduce our guest yes this is quite an honor we have sister becky mcintosh joining us from lehigh utah and i'm going to give just a brief introduction of how i met becky is back when i was looking into the church i found her video on mormon and gay. called the macintosh story and i watched that like a dozen times and i literally fell in love with becky as a mother figure as a friend figure and i immediately sent her a friend request on facebook and i was elated i mean i was jumping and dancing when i saw that she accepted it and we so we originally became facebook friends and then when i was in utah for four and a half months doing devotionals firesides and book signings in august of 2019 we actually got to meet in person and she um it's just been i call her my therapist even though she's technically not a therapist but whenever i have a faith crisis and it's usually late at night i will be texting her going oh somebody just sent me a thread or anti-mail and she's like calm down don't reply contention never wins so without i'm gonna with that i'm gonna turn this over to uh sister maggie slate welcome becky mcintosh author of love boldly and mom of a gay son hi thank you for joining us oh thank you thank you for the invite to be with you lovely people i'm excited about this i absolutely adored your book i don't i don't have the print copy but see if i can get it in focus there um i i downloaded not only the kindle version but also the audio because i have to have an immersion read due to my own disabilities but i tell you i i i kind of chuckled i wowed and i thought i made it through the whole book without crying but then there's a section that your husband wrote at the very end and not only did he write it but in the audio he he reads it in the audio version and yeah i couldn't get through that but that i i that was it i lost it why don't you introduce our audience a little bit to your story i'm i'm i'm gonna give you a little bit of a of a start with on page 17 you wrote you couldn't think of anything worse than having a gay sonyeah so that was my culture and upbringing unfortunately that this i had never dove into really understanding i just had my own um you know black and white idea of what it meant to be gay and that had to be that that was a choice that they were making and why would they choose something like that um so i'll back up a little bit so i have seven children and they're all now adults and raising children of their own but it was our number third child who is our third also our middle son we have three boys and four daughters so sean who was our middle son he is the our gay son and at age 24 he finally mustered enough courage to send his father and i a private message text message uh informing us that he that he was gay and now he did that sorry go ahead he did that over facebook he did a private facebook message right the night before he was to head back to his last year at byu hawaii at school so um he knew he was going to come out to us or he felt he really needed to while he was home for that three week christmas vacation but it was literally in the 11th hour like it was at 11 o'clock at night and the night before he was to fly home so he he had carried that with him for so long and even knowing he was going to come out to us waited for that very last minute and as a mother i thought i had created that safe space in my home and my kids knew that they could tell me anything but this was obvious that i had not and you know he had grown up hearing um homophobic things said in the home and um wasn't quite sure how safe it would be to come out and and that is really really sad that that was the reality when he headed back to byu hawaii you had given him instruction didn't you what was that instruction yeah so when he texted us he was out saying his goodbyes to his friend so he wasn't at home when the text came through and i immediately called him up and i said hurry home got your text we got to talk about this and he said yeah i want i want to talk about it but can you imagine how scared he was to to come home and and have this conversation and one of the first things i said to him was well we need to get you into the doctor because obviously your testosterone is out of whack because you know girls girls like guys guys like girls and if you don't like if you're not attracted to girls something's out of whack so let's my testosterone is out of whack i should my testosterone's out of whack i'm not sure i should i guess i should well well um becky um you just had me laughing i had to mute myself for a second because it reminds me of when you sent me a text um would you mind sharing that if not we can just move on it was hilarious i've never laughed so hard in my life i don't remember what you're talking about dennis if you remember it you can share it okay so you said the funny thing is i recommended my son to go on testosterone but i just now had to call my doctor and beg him for treatment because of my hot flashes for going through menopausei actually want to stop a second and say bradley what would you have done if your mom had said that um that's funny because uh my my mom didn't say that um but it has been a bit of a learning process for both me and my parents um where they they have said things that have been hurtful and have not quite been what i would have liked um and so i just kind of had to be patient and like work through that with them um it would have been really hard to hear my mom say something like that like oh you need to get some treatment for this i would have been like well i'm not even doing anything because it took me several more years later after coming out to them that i even made a decision to date or anything like that so at the time yeah just for perspective becky um bradley i don't know if you know he is a 23 year old gay man he is part of our caster part of our hosts um he is openly gay and in his last term at byu in provo uh-huh yep and actually wonderful so my son is just a little bit older than you when he finally mustered that courage to come out yeah were you saying bradley interestingly enough yeah i was on my mission uh when i discovered the mormon and gay website and so it was partly those videos um of your story that influenced my decision to come out to my parents oh oh that makes me happy to hear that so my son when i responded that way he just laughed he said mom it's not testosterone that is not the problem here and we spent the next four hours uh talking and um at the beginning i did more of the talking like all of a sudden i'd become this expert on a subject that i really knew nothing about but um that's why i tend to shut up on these these calls like this because i when i finally stopped to listen and they listened to him sharing what it was like growing up with these feelings and have to keep that to himself and navigate this himself and figure this out himself that broke my heart and he said mom you're the first person that i have talked to about this and that was two-sided that was i broke my heart to think that he had kept that to himself that i had not created that safe space and for 24 years he navigated that himself that broke my heart and then on the flip side i thought well that's okay because he's going to marry a woman and so he hasn't told anyone that he's gay and so that's good because then we don't have to explain it to anybody when he does marry a woman so that was still my my mind my my process um but he he gave me a lot of a food for thought and asked me to do some some reading and that basically that sent me on my my journey to seek to understand of how we navigate this because i knew number one that i loved him with all my heart and number two um we were keeping him in the family and we just i just had to figure this out and and seek to understand so it sent me on a journey that has turned out to be one of the best things um it's funny that god knows what we need to to grow and to to come closer to him and to um strengthen our relationship with him and strengthen the relationship with my my children i mean i i learned things that i could not have learned in any other way for that i'm deeply grateful that's that's incredible i absolutely loved your book how many years now has it been since sean came out so he came out to us in 2012. so so what is that nine years um i'm doing the math right i don't know um it wasn't until 2014 two years later after come out that i i felt very strongly that i needed to come out of my own rhetorical closet and speak publicly about being a latter-day saint mother of a gay son and speak about the reality um of this dynamic in our family and speak about embracing my son and embracing the gospel of jesus christ because i knew um people who had who had were leaving the church feeling like they had to make that decision to either embrace the gospel embrace their child and so they were leaving the church or else i had had heard too many stories of families kicking their son or daughter out and that just was totally um wrong heartbreaking yeah that just was not not happening um well for me as as coming as from a converts point of view it was actually the um members of the church kicking their kids out for being gay they probably kept me from converting for quite a while or from even asking the questions that would lead to that because i didn't understand that i i i came out when i was 13 no 15 as being bisexual at that time um my daughter came out to me when she was around the same age as being bisexual it's interesting because now i classify myself as asexual um but she also finds herself within that um spectrum if you will but it's it's it's it's an interesting process for um trauma survivors of which i am one and so is my daughter and i was doing a little bit of research reading and thinking and pondering and it occurred to me and i i was actually shared this with dennis was that many actually a large preponderance of the lgbtqia people that i know whether they're in the church or not are trauma survivors and it made me wonder if as a parent and this is irrespective of the church but as a parent do we not want our children to go down a path that is more likely to lead them to being a trauma victimyeah um well i can guarantee we can put the trauma on one of our lgbtq um kids by not understanding what they're going through and not trying to understand and trying to yeah right absolutely um to me the the gospel is is love um you know family is central to god's plan so let's keep the family together and intact and that comes through seeking to understand running one another and respecting one another and loving one another um to me i would not be living the gospel if i was not loving my son and loving all my my lgbtqia brothers and sisters um i just lost my train of thought where i was going with all that i'm going to take a real i'm going to take a real quick break i'm going to cut this out later um i'm going to teach everyone a really good trick about muting if you take your mouse and put it on this on the screen that's in the video on the video make sure the mouse pointers on the the video screen the zoom video screen then if you hit the if you hit the space bar and hold it down you can talk and then if you let itthen you hit the space bar again it comes back on that so maggie for your situation you can keep it muted and then you can spacebar it except for she's saying me she can't do that she must be on an ipad so never mindi'm on my note 9. you know that that's right i'm sorry i forgot does it work that's still a good trick for anyone else sorry i i'll keepi keep getting nothing i did think of something that was that along that line of the the trauma that we create um most of the time unintentionally we are creating trauma not realizing okay i'm i'm going back to um like we're in church okay in a stuck in a sunday school or a related society or you know priesthood quorum session um and and if something is said that um is unloving or judgmental or we need to raise our hand and to correct and to bring that love and understanding in it's it's when nobody says anything to oppose what we are hearing is wrong that someone in the room um who is lgbtq ia or has a loved one or a friend who is um they're being traumatized they're being hurt if we're not standing up and saying something so whenever we have that opportunity to to speak up and to share our story or to share um point them to the church website or point them to some some quote or scripture that brings in loving and understanding then we are contributing to that that trauma that's being put out there that that gives me chills what just said becky because when i tag you on post on instagram 99 of them is because somebody doesn't feel comfortable going to our church or they haven't been to a sacrament meeting in four five six years and i say go with myself go with becky mcintosh go with her husband scott go with richard ossler you will not feel judged if you walk in a award with them because they will make sure you're protected but i i i appreciate becky's point of view because we need we need them in all the wards we need we can't i mean it's not scalable for becky mcintosh to travel around the world and accompany people to sacramento meeting into but so it's very important that we get these allies and people who um even if they like like me i i come to this not understanding most of it but hoping to get a better compassion out of these conversations so that when these things happen i can i can speak up and say that's not your call to make whether how they are or what what you know that's not for you to make um and so um yeah okay there's something there's a quote i quoted um carol mcconkey in my book she has a video that's on the church website called i think it's loving one another and i'm gonna have to put on my my glasses here to be able to to see this but i i love this video and this quote from her so much she said and sister carol mcconkey she um was on the general young women's board and also the the general relief society board um she may have even been the counselor i i don't quote me on that right now but she's on the general board she said we need to do this differently we need to be deeply aware of what the purpose of coming to church on sunday is and make sure that everyone who comes feels loved needed accepted and listed everybody has struggles we don't know about it's so important that we be aware that everyone around us is loved of god and that we need to see them through christ-like eyes we cannot allow judgment to dictate the way we interact with people it just simply is not right um she goes on to saywe just cannot be or even call ourselves a disciple of christ if we are not helping others along the path the gospel of jesus christ does not marginalize people people marginalize people and we have to fix that we need to be sensitive and love them and allow them the opportunity to grow and to blossom and to be their best selves they have talents and abilities and personalities that are needed in the kingdom of god when anyone's shadow darkens the door of a chapel they ought to feel immediately embraced and loved and lifted and inspiredi love that thanks for sharing that becky i want to i think i'm allergic to that quote oh and you should watch the video it's like a three-minute video of her expressing this and i cry every time i've probably seen it 30 or 40 times it's one of my favorites well i i actually want to share a quote from your book that is my favorite scene oh you start out with i was also extended at tender mercy when the opening song was one of my favorites because i have been given much as i sat there with one arm around my unwed pregnant daughter and my other arm around my gay son gratitude filled my heart and the tears began to flow two of my children were with me at church and had come of their own accordthat's the part that gets me i'm a convert i came to the church alone my children aren't in the church so when i read that it just broke my heart and filled it with so much lovei want every member of our church to be like becky mcintosh i won amen every member of our church to take on your example and to learn to love boldly i don't care what their relationship with is to anybody who's lg i just want like you love and i second that as and i know bradley what are your thoughts um no i i agree i think becky's amazing and i've uh come to your house a few times actually for a family home evening i've seen you i see your face now here i am i'm here now um i saw you at the north star conference um so i've heard your story i've met you and i just appreciate what you do and i haven't gone around to reading your book just yet but i plan to i will not hold that against you oh and you know and it's i i appreciate your comments but it's not um being like me i am far from perfect as anyone who close to me will tell you it's being like our savior i mean that is how jesus christ would would treat any one of us in any situation in any scenario he would be there with his arm around us he would be there next to us he would be walking with us and lifting us and and praising us and loving us so that that is my my focus um is trying to to be like him and walking this journey with my my son i truly feel has um magnified or helped me to grow in christ-like attributes and i still have a long ways to go but i find that whenever i respond to any situation or scenario with love or as dennis mentioned earlier um you know how would how would christ respond like that is when um love fills my heart and peace comes and i feel joy um as soon as you bring judgment into a situation like the relationship is halted there's there's wedges i mean um you say that you pause and ask yourself if your words and actions are going to keep the line of communication open with your lgbtq loved one or if they will create a wedge in distance in your relationship and you say that stopping to ask yourself that simple question before you react has served your relationship well yeah and you have a lot of advice for other parents and other people along those lines well absolutely and i had to to learn that on on the journey um because it was a lot easier as a parent at the beginning when when i knew sean was at byu and he was living the honor code and and so i didn't have so much to worry about and i didn't know if he was going to um date man or you know what the future held um this was all new to me and i didn't know what was in the future um but when when sean did a start dating and had met someone that he wanted to bring home to meet the family um that's when i started i had to ask myself those questions when i when i wondered how am i going to respond well are you going to respond in a way that will build a wedge and drive him further from the family or respond with love that will will strengthen relationship and and can keep the communication open and provide a space where he wants to come home and he wants to be with a family i mean it's a it's a no-brainer at least to me like i wanted to create a uh a relationship where he felt comfortable and loved and respected and that only that only comes with honoring his agency and seeking to understand him and trusting trusting him that when i would respond in that way that's when the the peace and love and all of that that's when that comes well this also ties into elder oaks because elder oak's daughter lives in alpine and i believe they had a family uh the oaks family reunion about um in 2019 when i was out there and and elder oak's grandson is gay and got married to a man and it's um my understanding that elder oaks was extremely you know affectionate and and loving and christ-like when he met um his grandson's husband and that is exactly what christ would do and that's exactly what you're doing is we may not know all the answers but you're living like christ you're asking what would jesus do what would christ do and that's a huge example but wasn't it your um scott your husband scott mc brother macintosh he um he really learned a christ-like example from listening to your son when they were driving back from a camping trip would you mind sharing that story yeah um so so yeah when shaman come home for christmas that would was really the only time that we would would see him and um my husband is a big outdoorsman and a big hunter and one of the traditions is is going um on a hunting trip and um they were going to be in a in a truck together for three hours driving and before um sean had come home for for christmas he had sent his dad a message and said hey dad um can we really talk this time when i'm home like really talk and scott knew what he what he meant because god had been avoiding talking about his um sexual attraction and um but they were on this this hunting trip and they was on their way back home and um sean said to him you know i thought we were going to to talk dad and and really really talk and and so scott said to him um well they started going back and forth expressing what they wanted to talk about and scott then said um sean but why would you choose this why and sean said dad i didn't choose this why would i choose to be in a group that is so misunderstood and and just when he said that scott said it just hit him over the head just a ton of bricks like ah yeah why would he choose this he didn't choose this with all of a sudden all this just went flooding through scott's mind like all of a sudden this light bulb went on and then that made him think wow if he didn't choose this then you know how have i responded to him and he thought all the the mean things he had said homophobic jokes and things that he had said sean to shauna's when sean was growing up all that came flooding back to scott and um every time scott speaks about this he just starts crying just thinking about it um but that's that's when it finally hit him like um he didn't choose this and here i've been adding to his pain and it just made him um walk in my son's shoes like what has he had to deal with and realized what a resilient and strong um person that he that he was especially to grow up in our home in hearing um such homophobic things being being said and taught so yeah that was a beginning a turning point for for sean um you know my son my husband scott's transformation and he tells his his story and journey in that final chapter that maggie talked about in in my book and um i think that the church did a fantastic job too i think of portraying that that part of the story in uh the six minute video of our family i watched i watched that a couple of days ago i really enjoyed that as well i i want to pick on dennis for a second dennis um how would you feel if your parents had responded to you coming out like the macintoshes i still experience that from what they were in the beginning when sean came home i still experience that horribleum my motheruh related to me as a murderer she said you know if you were a murderer and in jail and killed somebody we would still love you but we wouldn't love what you did and that's how she sees me being gay and i i see becky and i just and i see all the other parents that i work serve with and how wonderful our members have been towards me and i want that so badly becky sent my parents a book their book with a beautiful inscription a beautiful message and a note and becky received a beautiful message back and i still don't know if my parents read that book and i pray every day that they doi heard that they do as well bradley do you have something that you would like to ask beckyumit's a good questioni think i am just reminded sorry i i was just reflecting on the fact that you said that you you knew becky frombeforeat least briefly um a little bit and i don't know i just am reminded of all these other people that i interact with and hearing stories of people coming out to their parents and even getting messages from parents um and it's it's hard because it is a process for people to learn um to kind of unlearn what they've been taught growing up and i wish it didn't have to be that way like and i wish it was just like a second nature to to love people and to want them to feel welcome and loved and we didn't have to put so much effort and make so many resources for people um like it just it just seems like you do nothing you're gonna end up hurting someone but it takes a lot more effort to actually make someone feel welcome so sometimes that's kind of heavy to think about it's a good perspective though becky you at towards the end of your book you give a lot of advice for other people you you advise what type of questions to ask and what types of things to say and not say can you share a little bit of that with us sure um yeah so i just i i share things that that i learned i'm so open and real and vulnerable in my book like i share a lot of mistakes that i made things that that i learned the hard way of not to to say or what not to say but i one of the things that i um really invites advice parents and and friends and um is is to not assume something but to ask to ask questions and then listen listen to understand let them share their story let them share their hopes and dreams let them share how how they would like you to best support them and walk this journey with them um and as far as um saying gay or same-sex attracted um i say ask them what they prefer how they identify themselves and respect that and to to mirror the language that they use um and not to assume that they need to refer to themselves as a certain way or let them um teach you and help you um i'm trying to think what i what i said in that chapter i don't know you you mentioned to ask questions like what has this been like for you what is the hardest part or how can i best support you yeah great questionsi i just loved your book i i recommend it for every person out there who is dealing with questions in regards to this even if you think you might have a friend who might be gay pick up the book pick up the book seriously um andrew i want to ask if you have any questions for becky i know that you've got a couple of friends that are lgbtq and you have been um communicating with themi think most have been answered uh uh my the question i had in my head was what what would you what would you tell someone in you know coming from a straight perspective how to begin to understand this i think in my mind um um i i wonder if if it's okay for people to make mistakes as long as they're trying and i was curious what you think about that yes you're going to make mistakes you're going to say the the wrong thing um but be quick to to ask for forgiveness or to to help to ask them to share um their perspective or to help you to under understand um so oh gosh this is the covered brain that's okay i think that's that's kind of where uh the reason i bring that up is because i think me and i think there's a lot of people who they want to be compassionate but they're they're nervous and scared of how first of all um they'll be um perceived by others in the ward in their in their in the ward and also how they might um say the wrong thing or and make things worse and i think a lot of people sit in that category of i don't want to make things worse one way or the other whether it's the wrong perception for other people um or whether it's i said the wrong thing to bradley and now i've really upset him and he's never going to come to church again right um uh and i've probably said a few things on this podcast that luckily bradley's good because i i i'm sure i make mistakes that way but um i i just kind of wonder how you what your thoughts on thati would say um anything that you say that is kind and uplifting and positive is going to be a good thing um lee cast the judgment aside and and just love and be a friend and just be there for one another um being that you can't go wrong if you are just a friend and you do a lot more listening oops sorry are you still there i don't see you anymorethat was um so you can't go wrong with just being a friend and just being there for one another and listening and um just treat others the way they would want to be treated which is kindness and respect and can you can't go wrong i have some thoughts on that um i think in addition to that people remember more how you make them feel rather than what you say necessarily and so if you are consistently making someone feel loved and respected and supported even if you say something that's not quite what they want to hear um i mean that might have a little bit of an effect at least temporarily but overall they're they're not really going to hold you against that they're not going to remember that um and then additionally going back to what was said earlier about like asking questions um something that i wish happened more often to me is i wish people would ask me the question of like why do you love being gay or why do you love being a member of the church because often these conversations that we have with people they assume that i hate it and they assume that it's hard and it is hard so that's a happy conversation because it's tricky to navigate but there's a lot of things that i love about it and that i am grateful for and so um i kind of have learned to almost um i guess not regret but like not look forward to having these conversations um because they typically tend to be negative when i wish we could focus a little bit more on like the positive of like why do you love being who you are um and so that these conversations aren't always filled with the uncomfortable feelings of oh well how do you get past people that say mean things to you and how do you overcome these things like those are good conversations but that's not the only conversation i want to have good point yeah absolutely yeah i i tell um people that reach out to me that have just come out to their parents i i say keep the conversation going like don't let it die ask let your parents know that you want to talk about it you want their questions and um the same with parents or other people that reach out to me i say they ask in their story let them share about themselves and i love bradley that you've said that you wish people asked what you loved about this what'd you love about being a member of the church um why i think so many people follow dennis on instagram is because he's so positive and his positive energy and people like to be around positive uplifting loving people um so i i know when you were saying that bradley it reminded me back before i was public about sharing our story um on two different occasions i was in a group where um this topic came up and something negative was was said and my heart would just start pounding and um and then i would step forward and i these two times that come to my mind i said uh i have i have a gay son and he is the most wonderful human being i know and i just started spewing out all these positive qualities about my son and i said what the things that you were saying are not true or not in line with with who i know and their mouths would just drop and then both of those times um several people in the group then reached out to me and said thank you so much for for sharing that um and i have to remind myself that until my son came out i had those same kind of thoughts and feelings and so um if we don't speak out and share our stories then um there the it's not going to change until their son or daughter or someone close to them comes out but what you're doing in this podcast is wonderful you know sharing stories and i i know there are so many resources now in this conversation and the words you know three four five years ago that it's helping to change the culture it's helping to bring understanding and more light and i i hope more love and understanding i see it i see it happening and you're you're part of that by stepping forward and sharing your stories and your light and love it's it's those stories that touches hearts that change hearts and changes culture and helps to create a safe space and help those youngins and those teenagers now that are growing up and to help to make it safer for them so they don't have those traumatic experiences that many of you have experienced thank you becky and and you definitely are you you are definitely creating so much more of a safe space in this world for so many people i actually want to take a moment and say out there to our audience if you are a person who is feeling nervous um no matter how old you are i don't care if you're teens i don't care how old you are if find somebody who you feel safe with and tell your story and keep telling it because your story matters we need to hear your story we all need to hear your story becky i want to finish with you say that frequent temple attendance helps you focus on the promises made between god and yourself and you are able to view life from it eternal perspective how has that changed over the last year not being able to attend the temple yeah i know i miss it i miss it so much but i have discovered that i'm able to create that same feeling in my home that i feel in the temple by creating that sacred space where i spend with with god and my focus um it's reading the scriptures or listening to a come follow me um podcast or or something or but just um inviting that spirit in um it it's not the same as the temple but the same like you can bring that into your your home by creating that space by inviting the spirit and by inviting god into your your space um i i can feel his love in my home like i feel it um in the temple the one thing about going to the temple is you know you leave your your phones outside and and all the distractions are gone but you can also create that in your home to leave all those distractions aside and just be commune with you and god and whatever that looks like for you that's a fantastic just suggestion becky does anybody else have anything else they want to ask our adwill you be my facebook friend that's all i say absolutely i would be honored to have you include me in your friend's circle i i think becky brought up a really good point about um or even andrew we need more people in our church we need you in our church but that goes back to what a general authorities shared with me we need more gay people sharing charity in the pure love of christ we need more lgbt people in our wards showing their presence and so i just say love boldly and read becky's bookabsolutely thank you so much becky for joining us i so much appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about this fabulous book of yours i recommend everybody go out and pick up love boldly wherever you pick up your books it is sold by its published by cedar fort and they usually have some really good deals so love boldly by becky mcintosh thank you so much becky for joining us oh thank you so much what a what an honor to get to communicate with each of you through um virtually yeah well you are our absolute first guest and we i think we chose we chose very perfectly you are the perfect person to come on here and and share your love for jesus christ and your love for your lgbtq family thank you thank you thank you thank you well we hope that your love that your week ahead is full of love and light of jesus christ we love you and so does god this little night of mine i'm gonna let it shine let it shine let it shine let it shine ................
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